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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 05:10:06 PM

Title: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 05:10:06 PM
Absolutely unbelievable! Absolutely phenomenal! The phattest revelation in existence!

As all know, the chinese have a record of 4500 years of unbroken history. Since daoism/confucinism & buddhism came around 6 & 5 BC, what did the chinese people believe during the previous 2494 years?

If you have 1 hour of your life to spare, you should educate yourself by watching this presentation :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-AkJzpKmg

To be honest, I can't even believe I didn't know about this for all these years... :'(

The chinese people who attended that presentation have no excuse anymore. :P
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 18, 2012, 07:26:47 PM
The Haida have 18,000 years of unbroken history in and around the North coast of Canada and Alaska....never heard of Jesus til his little pee-on followers came over and started killing us by the thousands.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 07:31:35 PM
The Haida have 18,000 years
Uuuhhh... what??
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 19, 2012, 12:43:42 AM
The Haida have 18,000 years
Uuuhhh... what??

That is his way of telling you that his people have a long history. What part don't you understand?

If god and his kid existed, I'm pretty sure they could have made a house call and clued in the North and South American natives as to what was happening, and why they should be good, and not wear clothes of different materials, and how to make striped goats and why they all drowned that time, etc. But no, go with the sheepherders instead of the most peaceful continents on the planet.

There is no evidence that there ever way a large scale conflict in the Americas before we showed up. No evidence of Ghengis Khans or Alexander the Greats or Crusades. I'm sure they fought a bit, but not so much that you'd notice. One would think this would please the god fellow and give him reason to clue them in as to what was important to god and such and how they should behave and teach them how to make crosses and such.

But nope.

So 12's history doesn't match your history. Why is that?

And don't diss oral histories. That's all you guys were working with when you started whipping out the new testament.

Added: And 12 Monkeys is being too nice. We killed his people by the millions. And you Portuguese were in on it too.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Nam on December 19, 2012, 12:55:11 AM
It's estimated that Europeans massacred between 10 million to 18[1] million people in all of the Americas.

Oh, and don't forget the "Convert to Christianity or die" plague.

And the Natives were the "savages".

-Nam
 1. note: some due to the diseases carried over from Europe like Yellow fever, small pox, and the Black Plague.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Anfauglir on December 19, 2012, 08:00:59 AM
If you have 1 hour of your life to spare, you should educate yourself by watching this presentation

No, I don't - not since you haven't bothered to give any kind of summary to it.

And, quite frankly, you've given me no reason to want to waste my time on ANY links you put forward.  In other threads I've taken the time to think carefully about your points, and then take the time to construct a considered response to you.  And in return, I get a flippant, thoughtless response.

So explain to me why I should spend an hour watching some random link you can't even be bothered to explain?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 08:25:29 AM
The Haida have 18,000 years of unbroken history in and around the North coast of Canada and Alaska....never heard of Jesus til his little pee-on followers came over and started killing us by the thousands.
Could you please provide us with trustworthy sources for that number?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 19, 2012, 11:22:03 AM
Parking places...thanks

 My little corner of the world is a prime example of the "Christians" compassion. In the mid 1700's when Europeans and Spanish arrived there were about 18,000 Haida. It was all good at first trade fur for metal,then fur ran short and we outlived our usefullness to them. In 1863 there were about 1000 left.

 The survivors then had their children kidnapped and shipped to residential schools.....Christians and the like.....BARBARIANS!
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 11:29:22 AM
Could you please provide us with trustworthy sources for that number?

Quoted for future reference.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 11:32:55 AM
In the mid 1700's when Europeans and Spanish arrived there were about 18,000 Haida.
Thank you for showing us your mistake. In case you didn't notice, your 1rst post said :

The Haida have 18,000 years of unbroken history
Having a pop of 18.000 & having 18.000 years of unbroken history is not exactly the same thing.

So, this leads me to conclude that you do not know the difference between history & population, which leads me to this valid question :

"Do the ward nurses know you're out of your locked room?"
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: kaziglu bey on December 19, 2012, 12:53:29 PM
Could you please provide us with trustworthy sources for that number?

Quoted for future reference.

Indeed, haven't we been asking this for days and gotten nothing?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 01:20:55 PM
Your premise is flawed.  Buddhism and Confucianism both date to around 500 BCE, and Daoism follows them by a hundred or so years.

And your condescending attempt to dismiss 12 Monkeys by conflating the 18,000 years of history he stated in his first post, and the fact that there were only around 18,000 Haida around the mid-1700s is not amusing.  I'm pretty sure he can tell the difference between a reference to years and a reference to population; the real question is whether you're honest enough to admit just how much a fool of yourself you made here.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 01:23:59 PM
Absolutely unbelievable! Absolutely phenomenal! The phattest revelation in existence!

As all know, the chinese have a record of 4500 years of unbroken history. Since daoism/confucinism & buddhism came around 6 & 5 BC, what did the chinese people believe during the previous 2494 years?

If you have 1 hour of your life to spare, you should educate yourself by watching this presentation :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-AkJzpKmg

To be honest, I can't even believe I didn't know about this for all these years... :'(

The chinese people who attended that presentation have no excuse anymore. :P
ah well SHIN KAIRI, art wins every time.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 19, 2012, 04:03:35 PM
Added: And 12 Monkeys is being too nice. We killed his people by the millions. And you Portuguese were in on it too.

No.... We didn't do anything, we weren't there. Millions were killed, by individuals, most of whom have been lost to history. I am not saying that was not an atrocity, however to attach he actions of individuals to a group of people based on there ethnicity and heritage is pretty racist.

Parking places...thanks

 My little corner of the world is a prime example of the "Christians" compassion. In the mid 1700's when Europeans and Spanish arrived there were about 18,000 Haida. It was all good at first trade fur for metal,then fur ran short and we outlived our usefullness to them. In 1863 there were about 1000 left.

 The survivors then had their children kidnapped and shipped to residential schools.....Christians and the like.....BARBARIANS!

To you as well... those responsible for what happened to your people are dead... To say that all Christians are responsible is to say to an individual "You kinda look like the person that is responsible so I am holding you responsible" and once again Racist
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 04:21:52 PM
^ +1 for mhaberling
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 04:48:27 PM
It isn't actually racist in that latter case, but a valid point otherwise.

I regret the atrocities that people committed in the past, but I myself did not commit any of those atrocities.  It's true that, descended from European immigrants as I am, I probably benefited indirectly from those things, but the fact of the matter is that I could not have done a single thing to stop them.  The most I can hope to do is try to keep such things from happening again.

However.  When Christians disregard those horrible events that happened because of Christians who came before them, when they try to pretend that they weren't done by real Christians, when they rewrite history by whitewashing the reputations of previous Christians, then they are committing an atrocity of their own.  They're perpetuating the myth of infallibility and creating the conditions for future Christians to repeat those crimes and atrocities of the past.

A modern-day Christian may not bear guilt for the Inquisition or the Holocaust, but they have the responsibility to work to ensure that such things never happen again, or else they're setting the stage for future religious atrocities.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 05:00:27 PM
Added: And 12 Monkeys is being too nice. We killed his people by the millions. And you Portuguese were in on it too.

No.... We didn't do anything, we weren't there. Millions were killed, by individuals, most of whom have been lost to history. I am not saying that was not an atrocity, however to attach he actions of individuals to a group of people based on there ethnicity and heritage is pretty racist.

Parking places...thanks

 My little corner of the world is a prime example of the "Christians" compassion. In the mid 1700's when Europeans and Spanish arrived there were about 18,000 Haida. It was all good at first trade fur for metal,then fur ran short and we outlived our usefullness to them. In 1863 there were about 1000 left.

 The survivors then had their children kidnapped and shipped to residential schools.....Christians and the like.....BARBARIANS!

To you as well... those responsible for what happened to your people are dead... To say that all Christians are responsible is to say to an individual "You kinda look like the person that is responsible so I am holding you responsible" and once again Racist
you are very blessed person to have such confidence in your opinions.  ;D
thank you for sharing... hehehe
yeah anybody can choose to be a Christian it is unfair to say that ethnicity is a reason to segregate.
are all Christians racist? or just some of them? no Christian racists? amazing....
anyways... hehehe
what does a Christian look like?
heheheheh  ;D
Praise Jesus, how do you pray? do you pray?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 05:02:37 PM
It isn't actually racist in that latter case, but a valid point otherwise.

I regret the atrocities that people committed in the past, but I myself did not commit any of those atrocities.  It's true that, descended from European immigrants as I am, I probably benefited indirectly from those things, but the fact of the matter is that I could not have done a single thing to stop them.  The most I can hope to do is try to keep such things from happening again.

However.  When Christians disregard those horrible events that happened because of Christians who came before them, when they try to pretend that they weren't done by real Christians, when they rewrite history by whitewashing the reputations of previous Christians, then they are committing an atrocity of their own.  They're perpetuating the myth of infallibility and creating the conditions for future Christians to repeat those crimes and atrocities of the past.

A modern-day Christian may not bear guilt for the Inquisition or the Holocaust, but they have the responsibility to work to ensure that such things never happen again, or else they're setting the stage for future religious atrocities.
hehehe
I agree we wouldn't want Christians doing anything but spreading the word....
um how do they spread the word?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 19, 2012, 05:14:53 PM
To you as well... those responsible for what happened to your people are dead... To say that all Christians are responsible is to say to an individual "You kinda look like the person that is responsible so I am holding you responsible" and once again Racist

Those that made up religion are dead. Does that stop you from believing?

The past effects us all in various ways. No, I didn't personally attack any Indian villages or deliberately distribute smallpox-infected blankets to Indian villagers, but I had damn well better learn that we humans are capable of such things or I might end up repeating such atrocities. Or end up being on the receiving end from some other ignorant or frightened group. And in the meantime I will use the generic "we" when referring to past atrocities simply to remind myself that in a different time I might have been far less hesitant to kill for my own convenience. 




Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: bertatberts on December 19, 2012, 05:38:18 PM
No.... We didn't do anything, we weren't there. Millions were killed, by individuals, most of whom have been lost to history. I am not saying that was not an atrocity, however to attach he actions of individuals to a group of people based on there ethnicity and heritage is pretty racist.
To you as well... those responsible for what happened to your people are dead... To say that all Christians are responsible is to say to an individual "You kinda look like the person that is responsible so I am holding you responsible" and once again Racist
Mhaberling: Were you there, then you would have killed, just because of your beliefs.

You can't get out of it that easy. Nearly all religions, are taught to kill with impunity, it is righteous and correct according to there own tenets and doctrines.
the fact that those very same tenets and doctrines still exist is very telling about religion.

If you believed that god or jesus gave you leave to kill Jo Bloggs down the road you would do it.
I've even heard christians state that they would kill there own children if god asked.
It has nothing to do with individuals, but all to do with the belief and doctrines they are inculcated with.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 09:23:35 PM
hehehe
I agree we wouldn't want Christians doing anything but spreading the word....
um how do they spread the word?
That isn't really what I was getting at.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 19, 2012, 09:31:47 PM
No.... We didn't do anything, we weren't there. Millions were killed, by individuals, most of whom have been lost to history. I am not saying that was not an atrocity, however to attach he actions of individuals to a group of people based on there ethnicity and heritage is pretty racist.
To you as well... those responsible for what happened to your people are dead... To say that all Christians are responsible is to say to an individual "You kinda look like the person that is responsible so I am holding you responsible" and once again Racist
Mhaberling: Were you there, then you would have killed, just because of your beliefs.

You can't get out of it that easy. Nearly all religions, are taught to kill with impunity, it is righteous and correct according to there own tenets and doctrines.
the fact that those very same tenets and doctrines still exist is very telling about religion.

If you believed that god or jesus gave you leave to kill Jo Bloggs down the road you would do it.
I've even heard christians state that they would kill there own children if god asked.
It has nothing to do with individuals, but all to do with the belief and doctrines they are inculcated with.

Haha... oh shit...

Bertaberts... Im not trying to get out of anything.... I am aware that if put in that situation, probably would have killed to. But I wouldn't have been me, I would have had a different upbringing and been exposed to the veiwpoints of the time. You probably would have killed in that situation to kiddo.

You say I'm trying ti get out of it as if I was guilty of something in the first place. All i'm saying is that the actions of individuals, should be seen as that. I do not hold you accountable for every terrible thing Atheists have done throughout history, don't hold me to all the terrible things Christians have done.

Also, I can tell you that if God ever told me to kill my own children... I would promptly tell God to F off. And you do not know what I was taught or what I believe. You know nothing about me except for a screen name and a post  yet u have extrapolated so much.  But you telling me who I am from such little information is kinda amusing so ill give you a little more to see what you can do with it I like medium rare stakes and room temp Crown Royal poured over ice. Please tell me more about myself based on that.

Oh and have you met Jo Bloggs, Jo Bloggs is a terrible man and deserves to die! ;)

No but seriously I don't think I would kill Jo, that doesn't sound like something I would do.

Also remember religions are not the only parts of society that have justified killing in the past.

You
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 09:33:49 PM
And what "terrible things" have atheists done through history?

Most people like to trot out Stalin and other communist dictators.  But they aren't atheistic - they just wanted people to obey them without question and saw religion as a competing influence.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 09:43:57 PM
And what "terrible things" have atheists done through history?

Most people like to trot out Stalin and other communist dictators.  But they aren't atheistic - they just wanted people to obey them without question and saw religion as a competing influence.
insult.
I was insulted.
you insulted my by giving me negative karma.
I don't care the justification.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 09:48:02 PM
insult.
I was insulted.
you insulted my by giving me negative karma.
I don't care the justification.
You gave me negative karma by mistake about an hour ago, it looks like.  That's all it was, and I'm trying to get it removed.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 09:53:20 PM
insult.
I was insulted.
you insulted my by giving me negative karma.
I don't care the justification.
You gave me negative karma by mistake about an hour ago, it looks like.  That's all it was, and I'm trying to get it removed.
I enjoyed the experience.
It was informative.
It's removal was accomplished.
hehehehehe  ;D
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 19, 2012, 11:12:41 PM
And what "terrible things" have atheists done through history?

Most people like to trot out Stalin and other communist dictators.  But they aren't atheistic - they just wanted people to obey them without question and saw religion as a competing influence.
So how does that make Stalin not an Atheist? But it doesn't really matter I said I wasn't going to hold you to anything bad an atheist has done through history.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 19, 2012, 11:48:37 PM
And what "terrible things" have atheists done through history?

Most people like to trot out Stalin and other communist dictators.  But they aren't atheistic - they just wanted people to obey them without question and saw religion as a competing influence.
So how does that make Stalin not an Atheist? But it doesn't really matter I said I wasn't going to hold you to anything bad an atheist has done through history.

Stalin was an atheist out of convenience. He didn't want any competition. He was a divinity student when younger and knew the power of religion. He had no room for power sharing in the world he envisioned.



Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 19, 2012, 11:52:42 PM
Stalin was an atheist out of convenience. He didn't want any competition. He was a divinity student when younger and knew the power of religion. He had no room for power sharing in the world he envisioned.

Thats OK wasn't holding you to it anyway....

oh comment on your signature...

My Kids right not to get murdered exceeds your right to own a baseball bat. ;)
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Add Homonym on December 19, 2012, 11:57:52 PM
Well, I watched the video for one second, and heard "haleluhja", which I translated to mean, "OK, the whole thing will be Christian propaganda."

Next I heard that the supreme God in China, previous to Buddhism, Daoism, was in fact Shang Di. Therefore I didn't need to listen to anymore of their crap, so I went to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi

Then I forwarded the video to 27 minutes, and sure as hell wished I'd stopped at 1 second, because they guy is now claiming that the contradictions in Genesis are somehow mirrored in some arcane expression that some Chinese guy made up.

(Then I went back to trying to figure out what youtube changed in their link system today.)
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 12:49:24 AM
hehehe
I agree we wouldn't want Christians doing anything but spreading the word....
um how do they spread the word?
That isn't really what I was getting at.
yeah of course not.
you don't want to discuss anything that would interfere with your agenda.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 12:58:04 AM
No.... We didn't do anything, we weren't there. Millions were killed, by individuals, most of whom have been lost to history. I am not saying that was not an atrocity, however to attach he actions of individuals to a group of people based on there ethnicity and heritage is pretty racist.
To you as well... those responsible for what happened to your people are dead... To say that all Christians are responsible is to say to an individual "You kinda look like the person that is responsible so I am holding you responsible" and once again Racist
Mhaberling: Were you there, then you would have killed, just because of your beliefs.

You can't get out of it that easy. Nearly all religions, are taught to kill with impunity, it is righteous and correct according to there own tenets and doctrines.
the fact that those very same tenets and doctrines still exist is very telling about religion.

If you believed that god or jesus gave you leave to kill Jo Bloggs down the road you would do it.
I've even heard christians state that they would kill there own children if god asked.
It has nothing to do with individuals, but all to do with the belief and doctrines they are inculcated with.

Haha... oh shit...

Bertaberts... Im not trying to get out of anything.... I am aware that if put in that situation, probably would have killed to. But I wouldn't have been me, I would have had a different upbringing and been exposed to the veiwpoints of the time. You probably would have killed in that situation to kiddo.

You say I'm trying ti get out of it as if I was guilty of something in the first place. All i'm saying is that the actions of individuals, should be seen as that. I do not hold you accountable for every terrible thing Atheists have done throughout history, don't hold me to all the terrible things Christians have done.

Also, I can tell you that if God ever told me to kill my own children... I would promptly tell God to F off. And you do not know what I was taught or what I believe. You know nothing about me except for a screen name and a post  yet u have extrapolated so much.  But you telling me who I am from such little information is kinda amusing so ill give you a little more to see what you can do with it I like medium rare stakes and room temp Crown Royal poured over ice. Please tell me more about myself based on that.

Oh and have you met Jo Bloggs, Jo Bloggs is a terrible man and deserves to die! ;)

No but seriously I don't think I would kill Jo, that doesn't sound like something I would do.

Also remember religions are not the only parts of society that have justified killing in the past.

You
do you believe that an afterlife is possible?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 20, 2012, 01:09:37 AM
None... I believe in God... therefore the metaphisical... and with those assumptions  ya i would say there is a possibility of an afterlife
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 01:24:15 AM
None... I believe in God... therefore the metaphisical... and with those assumptions  ya i would say there is a possibility of an afterlife
ok,
hehehehe
you are going to love this more than the afterlife...
who can experience an afterlife?
hi.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Jag on December 20, 2012, 01:46:51 AM
oh comment on your signature...

My Kids right not to get murdered exceeds your right to own a baseball bat. ;)

As soon as baseball bats are the weapon of choice in as many deaths as guns are, that remark becomes valid.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 20, 2012, 01:55:51 AM
oh comment on your signature...

My Kids right not to get murdered exceeds your right to own a baseball bat. ;)

As soon as baseball bats are the weapon of choice in as many deaths as guns are, that remark becomes valid.




And doubly so when they become as efficient.


Bats are designed for play and work best in that capacity.
Guns are designed to kill and work best in that capacity.


That's why there is a difference.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Add Homonym on December 20, 2012, 02:03:20 AM
I think the moderators should delete all the off-topic posts in this thread, inc. the first one.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 03:53:07 AM
I think the moderators should delete all the off-topic posts in this thread, inc. the first one.
Add Homonym explain censorship, please
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Anfauglir on December 20, 2012, 05:17:02 AM
No.... We didn't do anything, we weren't there. ..... to attach he actions of individuals to a group of people based on there ethnicity and heritage is pretty racist.

Exodus "...I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.....that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Yahweh is racist, is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 07:18:01 AM
oh comment on your signature...

My Kids right not to get murdered exceeds your right to own a baseball bat. ;)

As soon as baseball bats are the weapon of choice in as many deaths as guns are, that remark becomes valid.
wow, bats good because they reduce murder.
nice.
you need to think about this seriously.
what makes you think?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: bertatberts on December 20, 2012, 07:34:20 AM
Quote from: mhaberling
Haha... oh s**t...

Bertaberts... Im not trying to get out of anything.... I am aware that if put in that situation, probably would have killed to. But I wouldn't have been me,
Lol. You wouldn't have been anybody else.
Quote from: mhaberling
I would have had a different upbringing and been exposed to the veiwpoints of the time.
Which is the very same religious upbringing you receive now. The bible hasn't changed has it, are you reading a different book to the one they did.
Quote from: mhaberling
You probably would have killed in that situation to kiddo.
That is possible, were I not critically minded.

Quote from: mhaberling
You say I'm trying ti get out of it as if I was guilty of something in the first place. All i'm saying is that the actions of individuals, should be seen as that.
Yes individuals, who follow the same book as you. Individuals who were indoctrinated in the very same way. Individuals who will kill because of their beliefs even today.
Quote from: mhaberling
I do not hold you accountable for every terrible thing Atheists have done throughout history,
YCan you actually show some of the "Terrible" things atheist have done, considering atheists hold life to be more scared then any religious person.
Quote from: mhaberling
Also, I can tell you that if God ever told me to kill my own children... I would promptly tell God to F off.
And that would be a lie. Which is a sin by the way.
Quote from: mhaberling
And you do not know what I was taught or what I believe. You know nothing about me except for a screen name and a post  yet u have extrapolated so much.
Ah but I do, you are clearly religious therefore are subject to all the religious lunacy.
Quote from: mhaberling
But you telling me who I am from such little information is kinda amusing so ill give you a little more to see what you can do with it I like medium rare stakes and room temp Crown Royal poured over ice. Please tell me more about myself based on that.
There is really no need the fact that you are religious say it all.
Quote from: mhaberling
Oh and have you met Jo Bloggs, Jo Bloggs is a terrible man and deserves to die! ;)
(and a smiley face whilst you say such a terrible thing. Wow.)My point entirely, I would not consider anybody deserves to die. But you, well.
Quote from: mhaberling
No but seriously I don't think I would kill Jo, that doesn't sound like something I would do.
If you truly believed it was your God or Jesus standing in front of you commanding you to kill X. You would do it, without question.
Quote from: mhaberling
Also remember religions are not the only parts of society that have justified killing in the past.
Agreed, but religion is the only one that can incite good people to do terrible things, and more times than can be measured.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: naemhni on December 20, 2012, 08:31:43 AM
Most people like to trot out Stalin and other communist dictators.  But they aren't atheistic - they just wanted people to obey them without question and saw religion as a competing influence.
So how does that make Stalin not an Atheist?

It doesn't.  But many religious people like to claim that his actions were informed by his atheism without making any attempt to show the link (i.e., correlation without causation).  If one can't show the link, pointing out the correlation is meaningless.  Stalin also had a mustache and wore shoes, but that does not mean that we should regard any other mustachioed, shoe-clad men with suspicion.

Quote
But it doesn't really matter I said I wasn't going to hold you to anything bad an atheist has done through history.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 20, 2012, 05:27:59 PM
Bertaberts... This has gone from fun to a little annoying... You say your critically minded.

PLEASE ... Im begging you please... Tell me how that you know that I kill my own kids on demand of God.
I want to know how you get that from critical thinking, and be so sure that I would that you call me a Liar when I refute it.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 05:40:52 PM
It isn't actually racist in that latter case, but a valid point otherwise.

I regret the atrocities that people committed in the past, but I myself did not commit any of those atrocities.  It's true that, descended from European immigrants as I am, I probably benefited indirectly from those things, but the fact of the matter is that I could not have done a single thing to stop them.  The most I can hope to do is try to keep such things from happening again.

However.  When Christians disregard those horrible events that happened because of Christians who came before them, when they try to pretend that they weren't done by real Christians, when they rewrite history by whitewashing the reputations of previous Christians, then they are committing an atrocity of their own.  They're perpetuating the myth of infallibility and creating the conditions for future Christians to repeat those crimes and atrocities of the past.

A modern-day Christian may not bear guilt for the Inquisition or the Holocaust, but they have the responsibility to work to ensure that such things never happen again, or else they're setting the stage for future religious atrocities.
why do you regret the atrocities?
what could you have done about it?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Nam on December 20, 2012, 05:42:14 PM
mhaberling,

You're not much of a Christian if you don't do what Biblegod tells you to.

-Nam
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 05:45:39 PM
mhaberling,

You're not much of a Christian if you don't do what Biblegod tells you to.

-Nam
how do you know?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 20, 2012, 05:46:36 PM
mhaberling,

You're not much of a Christian if you don't do what Biblegod tells you to.

-Nam
Why???
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: bertatberts on December 20, 2012, 06:10:33 PM
Quote from: mhaberling
Bertaberts... This has gone from fun to a little annoying... You say your critically minded.

PLEASE ... Im begging you please... Tell me how that you know that I kill my own kids on demand of God.
I want to know how you get that from critical thinking, and be so sure that I would that you call me a Liar when I refute it.?
You say you would tell God/Jesus to f off and you expect me and the rest of the world to believe that, you are either lying or you are not religious.

God/Jesus said you must obey him or be damned, yet you would disobey God/Jesus, can you in all honesty be sincere in that statement. I doubt that, not if you genuinely believe that God/Jesus exists and is all powerful.

However if you doubt God/Jesus's existence then I will take back what I have said.

If you hold god to be the supreme being then his will must be obeyed.  Yet you say you are willing to be damned for all eternity, rather than obey your God/Jesus.
Are you sure you actually believe in a God/Jesus.
Or are you merely playing us.

And you replied "why " to Nam. Here's why.

Proverb 3:5... "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 2:23, "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9... "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 20, 2012, 07:30:59 PM
bertaberts... You say you are criticly minded... But what you mean is that your an atheist... There is a difference.

You never actually thought about what I said did you...
You already knew who I was, so the only possible explanation is that I was lying to you or lying to myself...

Maybe if you would of thought critically you could have come up with this...

I believe God exists and that he is a good god. If god started ordering me to kill people, I wouldn't so much think he was a good god and I probably wouldn't listen to him. Or acknowledge his authority whatsoever. I may believe in god, but I'm still my own person who make my own decisions. So dont EVER tell me otherwise, because you are unknowledgable.. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Mr. Criticly Minded. And Drop this argument its ignorant and there is no path in which you win.

Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 20, 2012, 07:50:04 PM
Drop the ball much ....according to the stories(of the Bible) God HAS commanded people to kill others who are non-faithful and YES even to kill their own children .....what you suffer from is SPAG (self-projection as God). and you obviously glance over the parts of the Bible where God tells his followers to kill these people or those people. Your God is not loving or reliable but your SPAG sure is
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: jetson on December 20, 2012, 07:56:36 PM
mhaberling,

I have spoken to Christian friends in person who were compelled to say that they would have little choice but to comply if God told them to kill their own child.  None of them believe God would ever ask such a thing, but they are fully aware that God has already done so, and they seemed unable to imagine he would do it again.

They also recognize that there is no defense for such an act in the modern world.  That when God makes such a command, as he did with Andrea Yates, the rest of the world considers Andrea psychotic.  How is anyone supposed to determine whether or not Andrea was commanded by God to kill her children, after all, she said so?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Add Homonym on December 20, 2012, 07:57:56 PM
I've read back over most of MH's posts. We have to adapt to the fact he's a "liberal Christian", which means that we will be largely punching at shadows.

Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 20, 2012, 08:56:13 PM
Why woupd you punch at anything... i told u what i thought how is that even up for Debate?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Add Homonym on December 20, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
Why woupd you punch at anything... i told u what i thought how is that even up for Debate?

I've yet to understand how anything in this thread has a point, or is even vaguely on-topic.

Truly, the greatest threat to Christianity is not intelligent atheists... Its stupid Christians.

We generally punch (metaphorically) at stupid Christians who pretend they aren't stupid.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: bertatberts on December 21, 2012, 03:37:33 AM
bertaberts... You say you are criticly minded... But what you mean is that your an atheist... There is a difference.

You never actually thought about what I said did you...
You already knew who I was, so the only possible explanation is that I was lying to you or lying to myself...

Maybe if you would of thought critically you could have come up with this...

I believe God exists and that he is a good god. If god started ordering me to kill people, I wouldn't so much think he was a good god and I probably wouldn't listen to him. Or acknowledge his authority whatsoever. I may believe in god, but I'm still my own person who make my own decisions. So dont EVER tell me otherwise, because you are unknowledgable.. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Mr. Criticly Minded. And Drop this argument its ignorant and there is no path in which you win.
Then I have three questions for you.

1, Will you obey your God/Jesus, in whatever request he makes of you?
2, Will you disobey your God/Jesus and be damned for eternity?
3, Do you only believe in God/Jesus for convenience sake?

Spag much!

Perhaps you missed these.

Proverb 3:5... "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 2:23, "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9... "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Anfauglir on December 21, 2012, 05:42:57 AM
I believe God exists and that he is a good god. If god started ordering me to kill people, I wouldn't so much think he was a good god and I probably wouldn't listen to him. Or acknowledge his authority whatsoever.

Interesting.  So you would have failed the test that Yahweh gave to Abraham - is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: bertatberts on December 22, 2012, 06:05:00 PM
Quote from: mhaberling
berta berts... i believe in a good god that would never ask me to do a horrible thing, if he asked me to do something i thought was wrong.. i'd burn in hell before doing it... but i dont think that will ever happen... i dont understand how you can believe in something out of convienence...
To be a Christian you have to obey God. You claim you wouldn't, so you fail the Abrahamic test stated by Anfauglir. Therefore you have created your own specific religion (SPAG). So yes you do believe out of convenience.

edit:spelling.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: mhaberling on December 22, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Quote from: mhaberling
berta berts... i believe in a good god that would never ask me to do a horrible thing, if he asked me to do something i thought was wrong.. i'd burn in hell before doing it... but i dont think that will ever happen... i dont understand how you can believe in something out of convienence...
To be a Christian you have to obey God. You claim you wouldn't, so you fail the Abrahamic test stated by Anfauglir. Therefore you have created your own specific religion (SPAG). So yes you do believe out of convenience.

edit:spelling.


you sure know alot about what it means to be a.christian for an atheist
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Aaron123 on December 22, 2012, 09:46:14 PM
you sure know alot about what it means to be a.christian for an atheist

Just an F.Y.I., many atheists are former christians.
Title: Re: The most powerful revelation in history
Post by: Jag on December 23, 2012, 12:10:31 PM
you sure know alot about what it means to be a.christian for an atheist

You might be surprised to realize that most of the posters on this board are VERY well read former believers. Many of us were passionate in our desire to experience a personal relationship with god. Every single one failed to find anything to substantiate even the possibility of such a thing.

Don't make the common believer mistake of thinking that we all dismissed god-claims as implausible without careful consideration of the facts. Most (but certainly not all) of us went through tremendous amounts of pain and misery before concluding that if there is a god, his impact on the world is so minimal that we can't discern the slightest evidence of his existence, therefore it makes perfect sense to live our lives as though there is/are no god/gods whatsoever. My life is no different than that of a believer - there's been absolutely no impact at all.

I happen to be a former believer myself. I have not read the bible cover to cover, but I've read most of it spread out over a long time - frankly it's too grim in the OT, and too far-fetched in the NT for me to take it all in in a cover to cover reading. I arrived at my conclusion after years of being a Catholic, followed by years of seeking an alternative belief system, followed by years of ignoring the entire issue of religion. I finally admitted to myself that I don't BELIEVE in god, and probably never really have. I cannot force myself believe in a god. I can consider the idea of a god, but not believe in it. For me, it's the equivalent of believing in fairies - I understand the idea of fairies, but I don't believe that fairies actually exist.