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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 05:04:12 PM

Title: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 05:04:12 PM
I hope this can contribute to a better image of my GOD in your minds. When I learned this truth, was the moment I was truly proud of the GOD I was serving. A God of Mercy!

I know that many believers and atheists alike have a picture of what the afterlife and hell look like - a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. Coming to the conclusion that hell is NOT a place of eternal suffering and torment, made me even more comfortable with the God that I serve. 

What is the state of the dead?

Answer : Those who have died are currently sleeping in the grave, awaiting resurrection. This includes the wicked and upright, believers and unbelievers. Only babies and innocent children need not sleep in death, nor take part in the resurrection at the Last Day.

What is the fate of the wicked?

Answer : The unrepentant wicked, who reject the forgiveness and lordship of YahuShua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ), are cast into the Lake of Fire, & will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Away with catholics! Away with the orthodox! Away with the false traditions of men! Away with all this PAGANISM! YHWH is truly deserving of worship! Glory to JESUS in the highest!

Blessings

Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Aaron123 on December 16, 2012, 05:14:04 PM
That's nice.

Evidence?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 05:15:27 PM
That's nice.

Evidence?
Look for it yourself, or check the link. Your choice... :P
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Nick on December 16, 2012, 05:32:31 PM
Hell is imaginary.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 16, 2012, 05:33:52 PM
no NIck, I think this is one of the few times we will disagree..
hell is directly behind that link.
I know I went there.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 05:37:09 PM
Hell is imaginary.
Props to u! (http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/scoregood_zps9a68a280.gif)
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 05:39:15 PM
no NIck, I think this is one of the few times we will disagree..
hell is directly behind that link.
I know I went there.
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/roflol.gif)

Nice one. Haha. Oh man, I wish u were a believer, we could have had so much fun together none. :laugh:
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 16, 2012, 05:39:45 PM
no NIck, I think this is one of the few times we will disagree..
hell is directly behind that link.
I know I went there.
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/roflol.gif)

Nice one. Haha. Oh man, I wish u were a believer, we could have had so much fun together none. :laugh:
not only is it not imaginary its denizen has come here.....
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 16, 2012, 05:41:25 PM
Look for it yourself, or check the link. Your choice... :P

No. Not going to cut it. Support the arguments you make. Here. Be succinct and use your own words. You may support your claims by linking to relevant, primary source material.

Moreover, you might want to make sure any links you provide are to source material the person with whom you are arguing sees as valid. For example, many of the links on your facebook page are to bible quotes, and idiotic and crazy ramblings only uneduacted, mentally retarded, and crazy people would be convinced by.  

The red indicates I am speaking as an administrator. It is not a suggestion. By the looks of things, and your lack of embarassment over the carnival show you linked to, I don't forsee you'll understand much of what happens around you here. But, best of luck, all the same. And, welcome.

Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Nick on December 16, 2012, 06:03:12 PM
Hell is imaginary.
Props to u! (http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/scoregood_zps9a68a280.gif)
By the way...what is wrong with Catholics that you kind of mentioned above?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 06:37:55 PM
Look for it yourself, or check the link. Your choice... :P

No. Not going to cut it. Support the arguments you make. Here. Be succinct and use your own words. You may support your claims by linking to relevant, primary source material.

Moreover, you might want to make sure any links you provide are to source material the person with whom you are arguing sees as valid. For example, many of the links on your facebook page are to bible quotes, and idiotic and crazy ramblings only uneduacted, mentally retarded, and crazy people would be convinced by.  

The red indicates I am speaking as an administrator. It is not a suggestion. By the looks of things, and your lack of embarassment over the carnival show you linked to, I don't forsee you'll understand much of what happens around you here. But, best of luck, all the same. And, welcome.
Uuuhhhmmm... thx... I guess? :?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 06:39:28 PM
Hell is imaginary.
Props to u! (http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/scoregood_zps9a68a280.gif)
By the way...what is wrong with Catholics that you kind of mentioned above?
LOL Are u a catholic?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Nick on December 16, 2012, 06:44:14 PM
Was raised Catholic and went to school1st thru 12th grades in a Catholic school.  NOw I have clear rational thought as my guide.

I take it you don't much care for the Catholic line.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 07:41:32 PM
No but are you a catholic now? Idc about your upbringing. I too was raised catholic. What are you now? was the question...
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Add Homonym on December 16, 2012, 08:40:16 PM
Malcom Muggeridge : "I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it's been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy & dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has."

Shin, if you have to quote Malcom Friggin Muggeridge to disprove evolution, then it seems to me that your theology falls apart if you have to accept that the world is actually very old.

Pat Robertson has recently come out against Young Earth, because "you will lose your children"
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/29/pat-robertson-challenges-creationism/

But it's worse than that; when we see a Christian that denies the Earth and cosmos is very old, then we see someone who is not connected with the truth, but someone who runs very far from the truth when they see it.

Here's a quote from Origen - one of the people who created Christianity

    What intelligent person can imagine that there was a first “day,” then a second and a third “day”—evening and morning—without the sun, the moon, and the stars? [Sun, moon, and stars are created on the fourth "day."] And that the first “day”—if it makes sense to call it such—existed even without a sky? [The sky is created on the second "day."]

    Who is foolish enough to believe that, like a human gardener, God planted a garden in Eden in the East and placed in it a tree of life, visible and physical, so that by biting into its fruit one would obtain life? And that by eating from another tree, one would come to know good and evil? And when it is said that God walked in the garden in the evening and that Adam hid himself behind a tree, I cannot imagine that anyone will doubt that these details point symbolically to spiritual meanings, by using an historical narrative which did not literally happen. (p.71)


Here is a quote from Saint Augustine

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]

A Christian saint says that people who do not move with science are going to disgrace Christians, and minimize the number of people who are saved.

Perhaps you should have a look at your position on creationism and judge whether you are being laughed at, rather than converting people.



Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 17, 2012, 04:34:11 AM
For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Unfortunately, I can't access Facebook - but I'm sure as someone who wants me to come to the truth, you will have no problem copying the relevant text here for us to discuss.

Answer : The unrepentant wicked...are cast into the Lake of Fire, & will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

While I wait.....a couple questions about the above.

What is the actual process?  So I die, I sleep.....then at some point I awake.  Do I immediately get given the choice to accept Christ?  Do I get to question and ponder, or is it a "snap awake yes/no right that's it" deal?

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: plethora on December 17, 2012, 05:33:21 AM
Quote
Away with catholics! Away with the orthodox! Away with the false traditions of men! Away with all this PAGANISM! YHWH is truly deserving of worship! Glory to JESUS in the highest!

Wow! ... this is what we've all been waiting for! The One True ChristianTM who has the 'True Truth of all Truths' and has come to share it with us!! [/sarcasm]

Take a number and get in line with all the other nutjob theists who come by with absolutely no evidence for their extraordinary claims. Not only that, but even if we were to accept and believe what you are preaching here ... it's not exactly worthy of praise.

The idea of a god that creates us sick and then commands us to be well is appalling. The idea that we are all undeserving vile creatures who need to constantly apologize to our creator for our existence is vile. The idea that such a god can only "forgive us" via the sadistic torture and killing his 'only son' is barbaric.

Luckily, those of us who are not deluded can breathe a collective sigh of relief ... safe in the knowledge that the above is not true and is merely man-made mythology originating in the ignorance and fear of hysterical primitive tribes in bronze-age middle east.

Only babies and innocent children need not sleep in death, nor take part in the resurrection at the Last Day.

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.

Quote
For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Actual evidence speaks for itself. The fact that you are trying so hard to lend it extra credibility by describing it as 'undeniable/exhaustive proof' achieves the exact opposite.
 1. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 17, 2012, 10:56:26 AM
For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Unfortunately, I can't access Facebook - but I'm sure as someone who wants me to come to the truth, you will have no problem copying the relevant text here for us to discuss.
Have u actually tried to click on the link?? Bcz I made sure my fb page was set to public, which means... that even if u do not have a fb account u can still access it.

Answer : The unrepentant wicked...are cast into the Lake of Fire, & will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

What is the actual process?  So I die, I sleep.....then at some point I awake.  Do I immediately get given the choice to accept Christ?  Do I get to question and ponder, or is it a "snap awake yes/no right that's it" deal?
I believe you get to ponder...

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?

Thanks in advance!
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 17, 2012, 11:05:14 AM
Quote
Away with catholics! Away with the orthodox! Away with the false traditions of men! Away with all this PAGANISM! YHWH is truly deserving of worship! Glory to JESUS in the highest!

Wow! ... this is what we've all been waiting for! The One True ChristianTM who has the 'True Truth of all Truths' and has come to share it with us!! [/sarcasm]

Take a number and get in line with all the other nutjob theists who come by with absolutely no evidence for their extraordinary claims. Not only that, but even if we were to accept and believe what you are preaching here ... it's not exactly worthy of praise.

The idea of a god that creates us sick and then commands us to be well is appalling. The idea that we are all undeserving vile creatures who need to constantly apologize to our creator for our existence is vile. The idea that such a god can only "forgive us" via the sadistic torture and killing his 'only son' is barbaric.

Luckily, those of us who are not deluded can breathe a collective sigh of relief ... safe in the knowledge that the above is not true and is merely man-made mythology originating in the ignorance and fear of hysterical primitive tribes in bronze-age middle east.
Hhhmmm... fair enough, but let me ask u this then. Why have you joined this forum then? Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

Food for thought my friend...

Only babies and innocent children need not sleep in death, nor take part in the resurrection at the Last Day.

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.
 1. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html
So we could know right from wrong. Good from evil. & choose good.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: naemhni on December 17, 2012, 11:21:02 AM
Hhhmmm... fair enough, but let me ask u this then. Why have you joined this forum then? Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

For many of us, it is because we live in societies where a large majority of people do believe that the stuff in the bible is true, and they are quite insistent on attempting to pass legislation, and mold society in other ways, such that it is in conformity with their beliefs; e.g., trying to get creationism taught in science classrooms in public schools.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 17, 2012, 11:30:10 AM
...
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...
Thanks for starting this thread and btw... welcome to hell.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: jetson on December 17, 2012, 11:51:52 AM
Hhhmmm... fair enough, but let me ask u this then. Why have you joined this forum then? Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

For many of us, it is because we live in societies where a large majority of people do believe that the stuff in the bible is true, and they are quite insistent on attempting to pass legislation, and mold society in other ways, such that it is in conformity with their beliefs; e.g., trying to get creationism taught in science classrooms in public schools.

Not to mention the religious groups active hatred and bigotry toward homosexuals, and same-sex couples.  And the active hatred and bigotry towards women, and women's health, and women's rights to determine what happend with their own bodies in reproductive issues.

Another serious issue is the hatred towards atheists.  It is unfounded , unwarranted, and unnecessary, and if Jesus was real, he would never have treated anyone the way many Christians choose to treat other human beings in this modern time, and in the past.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: plethora on December 17, 2012, 12:45:53 PM
Why have you joined this forum then?

Irrelevant to my post ... but basically, I joined the forums (4 years ago now) because I was in need of a place where I could have rational discussions and share my thoughts on religion, atheism and other topics without being shut down by the majority for my 'unpopular ideas'.

I have learned a lot here. Other skeptics have swayed my opinion on various topics with logical arguments supported by evidence. I learn, others learn and we feel a sense of community.

Quote
Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

None of us thinks we are 'above reproach'. We are all open to discussion and will consider other's arguments if they are presented logically and soundly. As I said, my opinions have changed as a result of many discussions with fellow skeptics ... and I've managed to change a few opinions myself.

About attacking it fiercely ... well, according to your beliefs I am a wretched sinner who deserves to go to hell where I will be "cast into a lake of fire and utterly destroyed" simply for not believing in a god... and you expect me to receive you with arms wide open? I think not.

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.

So we could know right from wrong. Good from evil. & choose good.
 1. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html

What?? I don't need millions of innocent children to die each year to know right from wrong!

I know perfectly well what right and wrong is without the need to have millions of innocent children being used as some kind of sadistic sacrifice just so I can "chose good".

... and neither do you.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 17, 2012, 12:49:38 PM
Another serious issue is the hatred towards atheists.  It is unfounded , unwarranted, and unnecessary, and Jesus would never have treated anyone the way many Christians choose to treat other human beings in this modern time, and in the past.
True.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 17, 2012, 01:02:11 PM
About attacking it fiercely ... well, according to your beliefs I am a wretched sinner who deserves to go to hell where I will be "cast into a lake of fire and utterly destroyed" simply for not believing in a god... and you expect me to receive you with arms wide open? I think not.
Well, it's certainly better than what almost all the denominations want you to believe i.e. that you will be tortured forever in a mystical place, while the devil laughs at you & while your saved family members look down from Heaven & enjoy the show... Which do you prefer? Heck, if I'm being bashed for sharing good news what would it be if I shared bad news... :P Story of my life... :P

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.

So we could know right from wrong. Good from evil. & choose good.

What?? I don't need millions of innocent children to die each year to know right from wrong!
 1. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html
Well, apparently you do, bcz you have yet to be saved :P If you care so much about the dying children around the world, let me ask u this : what have u done recently to prevent child death?

& no, enjoying yourself everyday doesn't count...

(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/dance2_zps056e3bfc.gif)
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Graybeard on December 17, 2012, 01:29:15 PM
If you care so much about the dying children around the world, let me ask u this : what have u done recently to prevent child death?

1. I told two of them that praying to be cured of illness is a load of shit and they would be better seeing a doctor.
2. I scared off a she-bear that was about to tear up 42 of them
3. I stopped a man sacrificing his daughter because he'd made a stupid promise to god.
4. I misdirected Herod's men and no children were harmed.

What's Jesus done today... or any day?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: stuffin on December 17, 2012, 01:32:06 PM
I see he made it here.

Based on the way he talks about catholics I think it would make him happy to see them all disemboweled. If they converted to his brand he would be ecstatic.

I'm sure his FB page is hell, props to whoever said that.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 18, 2012, 05:38:21 AM
Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

One more thing:

Why do all skeptics ..... laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

Because there are seven countries in the world where atheism is punishable by death.  Seven countries where if I said "I don't believe in god" I would be executed by the state.  That ignores, of course, all the places where publicly saying "I don't believe in god" would earn me a lynching, or a beating.  The places where saying "I don't believe in god" would lose me my job, lose me friends, deeply harm my prospects.  If I wanted to become president, I'd have no chance - check out some opinion polls on how many Americans would not vote for an atheist candidate, regardless of policies.

Because of all that, I won't sit idly by and laugh it all off.  This isn't a harmless few people saying "I believe there are fairies in my garden", this is vast numbers of people whose faith causes reactions from (at best) indifference, through to deliberate murder - and they will feel fully justified in whatever they do.

That's why.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 07:33:35 AM
^ What 7 countries are u talking about?

Thx
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Add Homonym on December 18, 2012, 09:34:38 AM
^ What 7 countries are u talking about?

Thx

http://global.christianpost.com/news/report-identifies-seven-countries-where-atheism-is-punishable-by-death-86413/


But getting back to the point:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO FOOD FOR THOUGHT IN WHY WE CORRECT THE ERRORS OF THEISTS.

I have 3 relatives who end most conversations in garbage about Noah, conspiracy theories and alternative medicines. I know one other person who is expecting the world to change consciousness in 2 days. I know someone else who's life was cocked up by an astrologer.

SOMETIMES IT'S REFRESHING TO BE AROUND PEOPLE WHO'S HEADS ARE NOT TOTALLY FULL OF SHIT.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 09:51:53 AM
^ LOL. Is this a joke of some kind? In case u guys haven't seen, all the 7 countries listed on that article are of predominantly of muslim religion. In case you also didn't know, I am a christian. I don't worship a pagan god named allah.

So please, spare me...   
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 18, 2012, 11:02:50 AM
No you worship a mish-mash of gods of other times  and stories of those other gods.....the only thing that is changed is the name of said god. All stories have been stolen from one religion or another as Christianity slaughtered surrounding tribes and assimilated their populations.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 18, 2012, 11:41:33 AM
I know that many believers and atheists alike have a picture of what the afterlife and hell look like - a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. Coming to the conclusion that hell is NOT a place of eternal suffering and torment, made me even more comfortable with the God that I serve. 

No, you don't know that. Yes, I have heard that view, but I have been given other views of hell, such as the one you are trying to redefine here. Making stuff up isn't new to your religion, so please accept that we have heard many views, and that generalizations such as the one above are no more accurate that anything else you believe.

Of course thinking that hell has recliners and great cable access for all makes you feel better. Of course knowing that all meals there are catered by 5 star restaurants and that Amazon.com ships there free is comforting. But keep in mind that you are making the good hell up just as much as the bad hell is made up. That's the beauty of religion. It is generic, but you get to make it specific to your needs.

Go ahead. Enjoy. Just don't assume you know what is going on in our heads too.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 18, 2012, 12:09:59 PM
^ What 7 countries are u talking about?

Good try at trying to Red Herring your own thread.  I'll repeat the main point of my post:

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

I can understand entirely why you don't want to try to answer it.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 02:03:50 PM
^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

There's your answer.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Morgan on December 18, 2012, 02:18:11 PM
First of all: holy shit up in the sky, you're 3 years older than me, yet type like a middle schooler.

Second: I've looked over this thread and couldn't find any proof that your mystical post-mortem alternate dimensions are real. I know you posted some links, but if your argument really is that compelling and my immortal soul is at risk, why can't you take a few minutes to explain things?

Oh, and about this immortal soul business...what if I get bored of living forever? I mean, 100 years is a lot. 1000 is even more. Not even 10^1000 years matter in the face of infinity and well...all I'm saying is that there are only so many World of Warcraft raids you can run before you get bored.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 02:41:09 PM
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: plethora on December 18, 2012, 07:12:21 PM
Well, it's certainly better than what almost all the denominations want you to believe i.e. that you will be tortured forever in a mystical place, while the devil laughs at you & while your saved family members look down from Heaven & enjoy the show... Which do you prefer? Heck, if I'm being bashed for sharing good news what would it be if I shared bad news... :P Story of my life... :P

It's not about what I prefer. It's about reality and what's actually true and demonstrable. I don't care if some other denomination has a worse concept of hell. Your concept of hell and its purpose is despicable too.

Quote from: SHIN KAIRI
Quote from: plethora
What?? I don't need millions of innocent children to die each year to know right from wrong!
Well, apparently you do, bcz you have yet to be saved :P

The fact that you can put a stupid smiley face after I'm talking about millions upon millions of dead innocent children is so vile I can't even describe it. You disgust me.

Quote
If you care so much about the dying children around the world, let me ask u this : what have u done recently to prevent child death?

& no, enjoying yourself everyday doesn't count...

(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/dance2_zps056e3bfc.gif)

Well aren't you smug? How dare you assume that I am not doing anything to prevent child death? I have been giving 10% of all my earnings to various charities for the past 5 years. Secular charities, of course. One of those charities is aimed at getting food to children in African nations. I help organize charity events at the IT company I work for ... in fact the last one was collecting non-perishable foods to ship to Africa.

I also happen to play guitar player in a moderately successful band ... and we have played many charitable events. Recently, we raised £3400 GBP for a mental health charity. The event was called "Music for Mental Health".

How dare you tell me I don't know good from evil? How dare you use those stupid smileys, trivializing the death and suffering of millions.

I am done with this conversation. You're not worth it. You are pathetic.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 18, 2012, 07:28:17 PM
Well, it's certainly better than what almost all the denominations want you to believe i.e. that you will be tortured forever in a mystical place, while the devil laughs at you & while your saved family members look down from Heaven & enjoy the show... Which do you prefer? Heck, if I'm being bashed for sharing good news what would it be if I shared bad news... :P Story of my life... :P

It's not about what I prefer. It's about reality and what's actually true and demonstrable. I don't care if some other denomination has a worse concept of hell. Your concept of hell and its purpose is despicable too.
Not at all.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 18, 2012, 07:29:52 PM
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
telling somebody they are going to die is abusive.
hell: eternal torment
my ass...
fuck, this internet gets better everyday.
I am turning up the volume...
enjoy all.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 01:54:51 AM
It's not about what I prefer. It's about reality and what's actually true and demonstrable. I don't care if some other denomination has a worse concept of hell. Your concept of hell and its purpose is despicable too.
Not at all.
Anything designed to terrify people into blind, unthinking obedience - which describes the hell mythos to a T - is by definition despicable.  That is the sole reason stories and depictions of hell exist, to provide the stick to heaven's carrot.

Doesn't matter what particular caveats you've come up with to distinguish your own conception of hell from all the other varied conceptions of hell that other people have come up with through the ages, it's still for that basic reason.  To terrify people into obedience to the dictates of whichever god they happen to believe in.  Basically, "do as I say you should, or burn in hell forevermore".
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 05:11:20 AM
^ What concept of hell? There is no hell. It's the grave. DEATH. Get it?!

Now if you don't think death is much better than eternal torture in an imaginary place, please don't talk to me again :P
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 19, 2012, 07:40:27 AM
^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

There's your answer.

Oh, well that makes it all perfectly acceptable then.  So if I rape someone, but in my defence point out that "at least I didn't kill them", I should be let off - is that your point?

I'd thought that just maybe you were prepared to actually put a little thought into the discussion, but from this 1st-grade answer it seems not.  I'm not sure if that's because you just can't be bothered, or because the magnitude of the question I was asking you to contemplate was just too much for you. 

Like I said, I understand completely why you don't want to think about it.  We see a lot of that attitude from believers - it shares a lot of characteristics with people in abusive relationships, who stress that despite the number of beatings they get from the guy, he is a real nice guy, honest, because sometimes he can be really nice and buys them flowers.

That's really the only answer you have?  That because your god only tortures people for a couple days, we should love him because he COULD have tortured us for a lot longer if he'd wanted to?

Explain again this "god of love" business?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 08:30:06 AM
^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

There's your answer.

So if I rape someone, but in my defence point out that "at least I didn't kill them", I should be let off - is that your point?
Not at all.

Explain again this "god of love" business?
Do you know of any other god story that says that god personally came down from Heaven to die for us, so we could have life?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 19, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
Do you know of any other god story that says that god personally came down from Heaven to die for us, so we could have life?
[/quote]

SHIN, first of all, you do realize that other believers in your same god do say that hell is a hot and fiery place and we bad people get to spend eternity there, right. So your casual dismissal of that as a possible fate does not make a higher quality hell more likely. It only provides yet another alternative offered by insider interpretations of the bible.

But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go. No other gods condemned us via our own naïve and uneducated actions. No other gods assumed that one casual mention about one specific tree would determine the fate of all mankind. No other gods have been so unforgiving nor so relentless in pursuing our faults. No other gods are so big into tough love.

No other gods have needed a self-sacrifice because no other gods built it into their story. When, in the story, JC shows up, his death by horrible means is absolutely required or you guys don't have a tale/lesson/myth worth the paper it is scribed on. You need the exciting (something other religions have too) and you need the harmed god (which other religions have) and you need the arrest and the betrayal and the various versions of the resurrection to happen, or christianity has nothing. Or in your case, catholicism has nothing.

It is a story. It sounds great to many people because it has been finely honed over the centuries. It sounds great because all obvious flaws were erased long ago. It sounds great because religious scholars, already sucked into the story, have spent almost 20 centuries via apologetics and other efforts to confirm its truth. But it remains a story. And that you are impressed with it means only that yourself and others believe it. That doesn't mean that it is true.

That your version doesn't match other versions of the story is consistent with untruths, not truths. That literally tens of thousands of versions of christianity exist does not make for a good argument FOR the bible. That I personally have been told by various local christians that my fate as a non-christian is hell and brimstone, or hell without the brimstone, or not hell at all, means that folks are a bit confused. Of course, you as a catholic, so happy that you are following the original myth (with recent clarifications/corrections/adjustments as required by political and social pressures) only means that you can walk around proudly saying that your religion has the longest history amongst them. Others, not catholic, walk around extremely happy that the founders of their version figured out the truth and broke away from the mess that was/is the catholic church.

Now I realize you will dismiss this with, at most, one partial sentence. If that. You will scoff and laugh and shake your head and say something funny in Portuguese and then whip out a wise-ass response in english and be done with what I have written. So if your goal is to help me confirm all my prejudices against religion in general and catholicism in general, please do that. See if you can keep your response down to one word that will amaze us all with its clarity and wisdom. Or one word that will insult every cell in my body. Or one word that will redefine sarcasm from this moment on in history.

Hey, even a video. Yea, that's it. Post a video. YouTube, that shining example of human triumph and endeavor and truth has so many completely accurate resources that you could go there and find something to counter me, I'm sure. Do that. Enlightenment at 720p was probably mentioned in the bible, so do it.

Or actually say something. That would throw the rest of us off but I, for one, am willing to risk it.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 11:22:18 AM
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 11:28:16 AM
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

Oh, we get it, for sure.  An ancient tale of ignorance now has a stranglehold on modern humans.  As the story goes, a woman ate the fruit and we are all doomed.  Until JC comes along, and then we're all saved...unless we choose not to accept JC, then we're doomed again.  Lovely story...

"God, the supreme asshole of the universe, if you are worthy of my attention, show yourself,  you fucking coward."
"Dear Santa, you are one fat mofo, I hope you fall off of your sleigh and die."
"Voldemort, may I call you that?  Eat my shorts."

Fiction, it works, bitches.

Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 11:33:10 AM
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!
So Eden was temporary and Heaven is eternal because we became assholes.
Where did Eden go?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 11:38:39 AM
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

Oh, we get it, for sure.  An ancient tale of ignorance now has a stranglehold on modern humans.  As the story goes, a woman ate the fruit and we are all doomed.  Until JC comes along, and then we're all saved...unless we choose not to accept JC, then we're doomed again.  Lovely story...
No. YOU sinned!

YOU are responsible for your own sin!

Adam & Eve are our parents, their sin is not our sin. But their sinful nature was transmitted to us. Why? Because we were born from them. You willfully sinned(like all of us) for the first time in your life at a certain age. Only God knows. At that exact moment in time, u were no longer blameless before The Lord(The Law). So, u were from then on, in need of a Savior.

GET IT?!
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 11:51:51 AM
No SHIN, I don't "GET IT" at all.  I don't sin, I make mistakes on occasion because I am only human.  Sin is a religious idea, and thus it means absolutely nothing to me.  Even if the story were accurate, it does not follow at all that all humans are sinners because of one mistake.  If you accept that premise, you're the one who has to live with it.  If that makes you feel better about how you interact with the world, go for it.

Adam and Eve are not my parents.  My parents are from New York!  And I actually believe that the natural evolution of life is a better explanation of my existence that some god making a man from dirt, and then a woman from the man's rib.  That is one of those EPIC LOL stories to me.

Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Morgan on December 19, 2012, 12:05:56 PM
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: screwtape on December 19, 2012, 12:11:59 PM
But their sinful nature was transmitted to us. Why? Because we were born from them.

That does not explain why.  It just says that it happened. 

They sinned, but where did they get their sinful nature from?  They were not born from anyone (allegedly). So this ephemeral thing - sinful nature - is transmitted in ways you do not seem to actually understand or you are unable to communicate.


GET IT?!

Stop doing that.  You are neither the first xian we have ever talked to nor are you the smartest.  and almost all of us were xians at some point.  So your stupid commentary is rather insulting.  Quit being such an asshole.

Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 01:12:29 PM
^ What concept of hell? There is no hell. It's the grave. DEATH. Get it?!

Now if you don't think death is much better than eternal torture in an imaginary place, please don't talk to me again :P
I'll admit that I missed the original point of your thread.  However, my statement still has relevance - anything that's designed to terrify people into obedience is despicable.  You're basically saying that there is no hell or eternal torment, the wicked just get thrown into a lake of fire and are obliterated.  However, you don't understand that neither is 'good'.

You're still threatening people with a truly awful fate if they don't do what you say they should do.  It's irrelevant whether murder or torture is 'better' - to threaten nonbelievers with either is a despicable act.  And that's what you're doing in this thread, in order to terrify people into obeying your dictate of what they should do.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 01:18:11 PM
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!
So Eden was temporary and Heaven is eternal because we became assholes.
Where did Eden go?
I guess the same place where "believers" answer inquiries...  :'(
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 02:48:39 PM
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.
Didn't you see the OP? :P
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 19, 2012, 03:38:43 PM
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.
Didn't you see the OP? :P

We've seen the OP. It is a land of ten trillion links. Anyone who has spent more than six months on this site has heard just about everything your links claim, then some. You keep asking us if we get it, but you don't acknowledge that you get our lack of belief. I'm not insisting that you agree with it, but you sort of have to understand where we're coming from before you can take us anywhere else.

We know the bible story. We know the Adam and Eve thing. We know the claims. Most of us also have, in our own opinions, have reason to assume it is all a fable.

As an atheist, I am not the least bit concerned about my death the end of my existence. That doesn't mean I am in a hurry or looking forward to it, but I accept that I get x number of years to live and then poof, I am gone. Sure, I would love to continue to exist. I have no reason to think that I do. Wishing and reality are seldom the same thing.

If you can't understand that the hell thing only works on those that fear eternity, and not those who know it doesn't exist, then each of us is talking to a wall.

We are just as sure as you are. Probably more so since we're not hanging around theist sites hoping to earn props from a god. At least one of us is very very wrong. I don't expect you to guess that you are the one in error, but don't for a second assume that your version of right is so right that there can be no other possible reality. Because we atheists are saying there is and we feel equally as strong about our position.

One that we can explain ourselves. Without linking the crap out our posts.

GET IT?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 03:46:53 PM
SHIN KAIRI,
make no mistake, I get the OP.
do you get the OP?
its ten trillion links and growing, behind every link is Jesus... all you have to do is look...
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Morgan on December 19, 2012, 04:26:49 PM
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.
Didn't you see the OP? :P
I checked it again for good measure, and failed to find a link with unbiased scientific data. Do explain to me in your words what I'm missing, because I fail to see the point.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 05:39:36 PM
^ LOL. Is this a joke of some kind? In case u guys haven't seen, all the 7 countries listed on that article are of predominantly of muslim religion. In case you also didn't know, I am a christian. I don't worship a pagan god named allah.

So please, spare me...

Ummm.  Muslims are not pagans.  Hindus and Sikhs and Jainists are pagans.  Muslims, Christians and Jews are all monotheists, by definition. 

And you all worship the god of Abraham.  You all believe in Noah and the flood.  Christians and Muslims believe that a virgin named Mary gave birth to a baby named Jesus.  All three religions are very very similar.  And all three religions are very diverse, with adherents claiming to believe a wide range of things in the name of their one god. 
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 05:47:22 PM
^ LOL. Is this a joke of some kind? In case u guys haven't seen, all the 7 countries listed on that article are of predominantly of muslim religion. In case you also didn't know, I am a christian. I don't worship a pagan god named allah.

So please, spare me...

Ummm.  Muslims are not pagans.  Hindus and Sikhs and Jainists are pagans.  Muslims, Christians and Jews are all monotheists, by definition. 
Heathen : Heathen is from Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish".

Any God other than Yehovah is a pagan god.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 19, 2012, 05:50:22 PM
I checked it again for good measure, and failed to find a link with unbiased scientific data. Do explain to me in your words what I'm missing, because I fail to see the point.

Are you okay Morgan? Link lists like that have been known to cause blindness and insanity. Don't take them so seriously. When someone goes for quantity over quality, you don't really even need to check.

Thanks for trying though. Hope you didn't hurt your mouse fingers.  ;D
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: lomolo on December 19, 2012, 09:01:50 PM
Heathen : Heathen is from Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish".

Which dictionary are you using?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heathen
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Ambivalent on December 19, 2012, 10:45:46 PM
Are you part of the "WatchTower Society"? Because that only judging thing sounds a lot like something my Aunt (who is a Jehova Witness) would say.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 20, 2012, 05:04:46 AM
Sorry Shin - you can try to duck and dodge and shift the goalposts all you like, but you still haven't been able to give me a considered answer to my question.

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

The only response you've managed to my direct question so far is:

^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

...which is frankly pathetic.  Is that the best defence you can make for your god?  That he "only" tortures people for a few days rather than forever, so therefore he's actually a really nice guy?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 20, 2012, 05:07:10 AM
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 05:10:48 AM
Sorry Shin - you can try to duck and dodge and shift the goalposts all you like, but you still haven't been able to give me a considered answer to my question.

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

The only response you've managed to my direct question so far is:

^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

...which is frankly pathetic.  Is that the best defence you can make for your god?  That he "only" tortures people for a few days rather than forever, so therefore he's actually a really nice guy?
come on let him think about it.
hell be BAxorz
UndUcan2
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Brakeman on December 20, 2012, 07:43:28 AM
..
What is the state of the dead?

Answer : Those who have died are currently sleeping in the grave,..

.. The unrepentant .. will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

..

There isn't that much difference from our atheistic point of view, except that we don't believe in the silliness of the dead sleeping. No, the dead are really dead. And since I have no desire whatsoever to worship some megalomaniac for all eternity, I am just fine with not existing when I'm already dead, it's what a thinking man would prefer.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 20, 2012, 08:30:18 AM
Sorry Shin - you can try to duck and dodge and shift the goalposts all you like, but you still haven't been able to give me a considered answer to my question.

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

The only response you've managed to my direct question so far is:

^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

...which is frankly pathetic.  Is that the best defence you can make for your god?  That he "only" tortures people for a few days rather than forever, so therefore he's actually a really nice guy?
The burning will last till you body gets totally consumed. If it last 20 seconds, good for you. If it lasts 2 min, what do you want me to say? It is what it is...

Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 20, 2012, 08:31:35 AM
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Their sinful nature came when they sinned. Had they resisted the temptation of the devil & not sinned, they wouldn't have had a sinful nature.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 20, 2012, 08:34:53 AM
..
What is the state of the dead?

Answer : Those who have died are currently sleeping in the grave,..

.. The unrepentant .. will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

..

There isn't that much difference from our atheistic point of view
Actually, it's completely identic. The skeptics had it right since the beginning.

except that we don't believe in the silliness of the dead sleeping.
Yes you do, bcz it's the same feeling. The feeling of nothingness. Total darkness. No thoughts, no emotions, no consciousness. The Lord is good.

Perhaps the only notable difference from sleeping is that there will be no dreams. Death. The 2nd death. The Lord is good & merciful.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Morgan on December 20, 2012, 08:42:20 AM
I checked it again for good measure, and failed to find a link with unbiased scientific data. Do explain to me in your words what I'm missing, because I fail to see the point.

Are you okay Morgan? Link lists like that have been known to cause blindness and insanity. Don't take them so seriously. When someone goes for quantity over quality, you don't really even need to check.

Thanks for trying though. Hope you didn't hurt your mouse fingers.  ;D

Don't worry about me, living in the Theocratic Republic of Romania has made me jaded to that kind of stuff.  ;D

@SK:
I'm still waiting for that proof, y'know. Without it everything you say sounds like boring fanfic everyone takes too seriously  :-\ There are no awesome crossovers, nobody's being badass by fighting alligators with flaming radioactive chainsaws, and no hot guys and/or girls are having sex.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Azdgari on December 20, 2012, 09:10:18 AM
Heathen : Heathen is from Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish".

Which dictionary are you using?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heathen

For that matter, he didn't even use the word "heathen" in the quote in question.  He used "pagan".
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: jaimehlers on December 20, 2012, 09:55:34 AM
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 20, 2012, 10:22:22 AM
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.
He's not just someone...
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: plethora on December 20, 2012, 12:00:51 PM
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.
He's not just someone...

He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Bagheera on December 20, 2012, 04:41:32 PM
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

This is the argument that gets me annoyed, from the perspective of "it's batshit insane"

Only after disobeying God did we become assholes. So why did God give us any instructions at all to disobey? Why create the creature he supposedly loves, then instill the only condition that could screw it up for us of his own volition when the simple act of NOT giving commandments would result in us merely doing as we will, not disobeying god, and thus not being all granted eternal bliss?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Bagheera on December 20, 2012, 04:56:18 PM
except that we don't believe in the silliness of the dead sleeping.
Yes you do, bcz it's the same feeling. The feeling of nothingness. Total darkness. No thoughts, no emotions, no consciousness. The Lord is good.

Perhaps the only notable difference from sleeping is that there will be no dreams. Death. The 2nd death. The Lord is good & merciful.

Now. . . extend the "sleep of the dead" to everyone, whether or not they believe in god or Thor or Cthulu, and you have what is likely a more accurate model for the state of consciousness after you die; it doesn't exist. Why insert something beyond that, except for wishful thinking? "I want it to be so" is a good incentive for making things happen, but insufficient evidence that it actually happens or even can happen. The Lord is good and merciful; we have life, and death.

Why do  greedy religious people keep pestering him for immortal life when he already gave them mortal life? Spoiled brats :)

(Note: Sleeping is NOT the same as dead? If you're sleeping, you're still alive, even though you may not be fully aware of your surroundings. The inputs still work, but the processor power has been dialled back and is mostly idle or involved in other functions we don't fully understand.  A strong enough stimulus will still wake you. Try that with a dead person.)
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 20, 2012, 04:59:53 PM
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.
He's not just someone...

He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Bagheera on December 20, 2012, 05:02:19 PM
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Their sinful nature came when they sinned. Had they resisted the temptation of the devil & not sinned, they wouldn't have had a sinful nature.

So god created them with the capacity to sin, and then gave them the opportunity,  knowing that they would sin, without the ability to determine that sin was 'sinful'.

Does that sum it up?

And doesn't reading that give you some insight into why some people think that if (bible)God exists, he's at best a huge dick that's indifferent to humanity's welfare, and probably evil? Replace the word God with Odin or Zeus or Jupiter or a made up name if that helps.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 20, 2012, 05:08:09 PM
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

So why did God give us any instructions at all to disobey? Why create the creature he supposedly loves, then instill the only condition that could screw it up for us of his own volition when the simple act of NOT giving commandments would result in us merely doing as we will
Bcz he doesn't want us to do our will, but to learn His will. Why? Bcz His will is infinitely better than ours. He therefore has to teach us. & there can be no teaching without us seeing the result of going against His will(sin).

His will is righteousness, love, mercy, etc... This is still the main battle fought today. Our will or His will. It has never been about anything else...

Joshua 24:15 If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!"

Who will ye all serve? Yehovah or yourselves? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Bagheera on December 20, 2012, 05:11:13 PM
He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...

Billions of people don't know I exist. Does that mean I don't?

I at least am capable of providing unequivocal evidence that I do exist, to the point of showing up on your doorstep with my ID. (bible)God seems to be consistently incapable of doing so, and the evidence for an afterlife is only slightly less absent. (Arguments for (bible)God tend to promise material results that fail to materialize, which actually provides negative evidence of His existence, whereby arguments for an afterlife tend to reside in the 'only when you're dead will you know' category, which renders them unprovable to anyone who lives.

People can imagine a lot of stuff.  If they don't stand up under scrutiny, its quite possible that thousands, millions or billions of people can be demonstrably wrong.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Emily on December 20, 2012, 05:12:03 PM
Damn you nested quotes....  >:(

A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...

Just because this supernatural thing is believed by billions of people around the world doesn't mean this thing isn't imaginary.

Sure, one can bring up Allah, and you agreeing he's not real. Right? It only takes one person to convince one person that something is supposedly real, when it isn't, then that belief that it is real spreads to hundreds, thousands, millions, and billions.

That's really not the best argument, Shin. How does he being believed by billions to be real validate its existence?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 20, 2012, 05:12:55 PM
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Their sinful nature came when they sinned. Had they resisted the temptation of the devil & not sinned, they wouldn't have had a sinful nature.

So god created them with the capacity to sin
Sin is disobeying God. Whatever the order might be. So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love. If this doesn't make sense to you, I suggest you jump off the nearest bridge you can find... :P

Does that sum it up?
Yes. Problem?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Bagheera on December 20, 2012, 05:16:29 PM
So why did God give us any instructions at all to disobey? Why create the creature he supposedly loves, then instill the only condition that could screw it up for us of his own volition when the simple act of NOT giving commandments would result in us merely doing as we will
Bcz he doesn't want us to do our will, but to learn His will. Why? Bcz His will is infinitely better than ours. He therefore has to teach us. & there can be no teaching without us seeing the result of going against His will(sin).

His will is righteousness, love, mercy, etc... This is still the main battle fought today. Our will or His will. It has never been about anything else...

Joshua 24:15 If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!"

Who will ye all serve? Yehovah or yourselves? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.

Then He can make His will clear. Unless His will is "orchestrate a series of circumstances that result in making My existence and will of dubious to people who use the brains I provided for them". In which case. . . it's still not clear.

In which case, I win, because I am following God's will. Why do I need you to lead me astray?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Bagheera on December 20, 2012, 05:21:10 PM
Sin is disobeying God. Whatever the order might be. So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love. If this doesn't make sense to you, I suggest you jump off the nearest bridge you can find... :P

Does that sum it up?
Yes. Problem?

It makes sense. Give creatures the ability to do something without including the capacity to understand what they're doing, incite them to do it knowing that they will, then punish them for doing it.

I am so glad all evidence points to the likelihood of (bible)God being imaginary, because He sounds kind of psychotic.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 20, 2012, 05:26:01 PM
Give creatures the ability to do something without including the capacity to understand what they're doing, incite them to do it knowing that they will, then punish them for doing it.

Liked.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Brakeman on December 20, 2012, 10:44:21 PM
He's not just someone...

He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...

Yes and he is a different god for every single one.  The god of SPAG.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Jason on December 21, 2012, 01:44:22 AM
7th dayer I'm guessing.  Sounds like the crazy nonsense my parents believe.  And they absolutely hate the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 21, 2012, 02:24:49 AM
Oh gosh, Brakeman is back. It is almost normal around here.


And yes SHIN, you are contributing to the normalcy too. In your own special way.



Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Bagheera on December 21, 2012, 03:41:56 AM
Bcz he doesn't want us to do our will, but to learn His will. Why? Bcz His will is infinitely better than ours. He therefore has to teach us. & there can be no teaching without us seeing the result of going against His will(sin).

His will is righteousness, love, mercy, etc... This is still the main battle fought today. Our will or His will. It has never been about anything else...

Joshua 24:15 If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!"

Who will ye all serve? Yehovah or yourselves? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.

When I can see a) Him and b) His will and c) the results of going against His will, then I can at least begin to be taught or instructed.

Right now, all I have is a bunch of people claiming to represent Him and to know His will, although they have failed to demonstrate that this knowledge is accurate or even factual. What they (and by they I include you) present is indistinguishable from fiction.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 21, 2012, 05:34:03 AM
Is that the best defence you can make for your god?  That he "only" tortures people for a few days rather than forever, so therefore he's actually a really nice guy?

The burning will last till you body gets totally consumed. If it last 20 seconds, good for you. If it lasts 2 min, what do you want me to say? It is what it is...

Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?

When someone tries to tell me that "hey - the most horrible pain you will ever endure will ONLY last for a few minutes - isn't god wonderful for not making it last longer!!!", yes, I do indeed question.

Treat me like I am dumb, Shin - explain to me clearly in words of one syllable how ONLY torturing me for a few minutes (when he could not turture me at all) makes your god loving?

Like I asked you before - how is this  different from my rape defence being "well, I could have killed her - I'm really a good guy"?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 21, 2012, 05:40:48 AM
So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love.

So....your god could have created humanity so that the ONLY thing they could do would be to love him.  But instead he created them with choice.

Tell me, Shin - just who did that decision benefit?

Yahweh being super-powered, he could have created man so that they could ONLY love him, and would have no problem with this condition - indeed, Yahweh could make it so that man would never even realise it.  With his mighty powers, he could make it so that everyone trly believed they loved him through choice rather than through direction.  Every human would live with god in happiness forever, and NOBODY would ever have to be punished - for sin would never exist.

But Yahweh, despite that knowledge, decided that man needed to be able to CHOOSE to love him......despite knowing full well that this would mean many billions of people being unhappy, many billions of people being punished for sin, many billions of people burning way in hell.

Tell me, Shin - just who did that decision benefit?

Did it benefit man, who could have been created to a blissful life that felt exactly as if they had choice?

Or did it benefit Yahweh, fulfilling his need to be loved - whatever the cost?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: plethora on December 21, 2012, 06:48:17 AM
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...

Logical fallacy lesson of the day ... Argumentum ad Populum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)

Millions of people thought the earth was flat at some point... and they were all wrong.

Besides ... these billions you speak of fundamentally disagree on their definition of "god". Christianity alone has over 38,000 denominations. You yourself started this thread making it very clear that you separate yourself from catholics and the orthodox.

Funny how theists lump themselves in with the "billions" when it's convenient and then separate themselves from those same billions in the next breath.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Morgan on December 21, 2012, 07:38:21 AM
I really am hoping you're compiling a 100 page .pdf detailing unbiased empirical evidence towards the existence of your deity and not ignoring me. Chances are I'm wrong, but isn't one allowed to dream at the tender age of 18?  :'( Hell, you could pray really hard to show a non believer the light. Surely an omnipotent guy can change the mind of a heathen? I consider myself pretty open-minded. Hell, my friends have even convinced me to read/watch The Vampire Diaries, no small feat considering I had a small aversion to it since Twilight.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 08:26:08 AM
7th dayer I'm guessing.  Sounds like the crazy nonsense my parents believe.  And they absolutely hate the Catholic Church.
Not quite. I am a non-denominational chrisitan(which is what one should be). But I have to admit that the only denomination out there that has kept some kind of truth, is the 7th day adventists. If your parents are indeed 7th dayers, you should listen to them one day. It's far from nonsense.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 08:28:07 AM
Oh gosh, Brakeman is back. It is almost normal around here.
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/transferir_zpsfbb036ed.jpg)


And yes SHIN, you are contributing to the normalcy too. In your own special way.
:laugh: (http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/rocker-1_zps8449bc81.gif)
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 08:29:50 AM
Bcz he doesn't want us to do our will, but to learn His will. Why? Bcz His will is infinitely better than ours. He therefore has to teach us. & there can be no teaching without us seeing the result of going against His will(sin).

His will is righteousness, love, mercy, etc... This is still the main battle fought today. Our will or His will. It has never been about anything else...

Joshua 24:15 If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!"

Who will ye all serve? Yehovah or yourselves? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.

When I can see a) Him and b) His will and c) the results of going against His will, then I can at least begin to be taught or instructed.

Right now, all I have is a bunch of people claiming to represent Him and to know His will
Fair enough. What do you want me to say to this? Ask God to reveal Himself to you then, I don't know... :-\
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 08:52:38 AM
So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love.

Yahweh being super-powered, he could have created man so that they could ONLY love him
No.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: kaziglu bey on December 21, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love.

Yahweh being super-powered, he could have created man so that they could ONLY love him
No.

What we have here folks is an admission that Yahweh does indeed have limitations to his power. It is important also to note that Yahweh essentially DID create people to only love him, or at least to obey his instructions to commit evil unquestioningly.

Of course, the Dark Lord also " created"  orcs by spoiling captured elves and turning them into a bastardized mockery of Eru's proudest creation. Christians are a lot like Orcs. Motivated by fear of their overlord, they can be coerced into accepting wickedness as goodness, slavery as freedom, war as peace, and ignorance as strength. Just like Big Brother.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: kaziglu bey on December 21, 2012, 09:22:38 AM
In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love.

Oh, and this. I'll let Hitch handle this one.
Not imposed? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G1_M8wDcw4&feature=related)
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 09:39:03 AM
^ LOL. I actually like Hitchens.

You know that if Hitchens knew that the hell of the churches of men was in fact a false doctrine, he would be a christian. U know that don't you? I hope you do.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: kaziglu bey on December 21, 2012, 09:45:45 AM
Well you certainly seem to KNOW this, even though there is no possible way that you COULD know this. Are you a Legilimens or something? By the way, Hitchens rejected all religious doctrines. The fact of the matter is that Hell has been preached about for centuries, millennia even, and lots of folks believe in it, and use it to terrorize children. The truth or falsehood of the doctrine is really irrelevant, what is relevant is that the teachings of Jesus have been used to enslave and destroy countless people through the years, and the blood is on your hands too SHIN, since you put your name on the dotted line and accepted human sacrifice as the greatest event in history.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Add Homonym on December 21, 2012, 10:03:44 AM
You know that if Hitchens knew that the hell of the churches of men was in fact a false doctrine, he would be a christian. U know that don't you? I hope you do.

God, we must be bored, even reading what SHIN writes.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 10:53:04 AM
The truth or falsehood of the doctrine is really irrelevant
Peoples of this forum, I rest my case.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 21, 2012, 12:07:16 PM
So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love.

Yahweh being super-powered, he could have created man so that they could ONLY love him
No.

And your Biblical reference for Yahweh's limitations is.....?  I honestly wonder where you get it from.  Yahweh seemed to have no problem "hardening the hearts" of Phaeroh - are you saying it is just making people love he has problems with, but making people hate he can do with ease?

Shin: when someone is with Yahweh in heaven, is it possible for them to sin?  Think carefully before you answer.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Azdgari on December 21, 2012, 02:19:20 PM
The truth or falsehood of the doctrine is really irrelevant
Peoples of this forum, I rest my case.

...by ignoring what he was saying it was irrelevant to.  But does this at least mean that you'll stop posting stupid things?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 02:22:52 PM
Shin: when someone is with Yahweh in heaven, is it possible for them to sin? 
No.

Think carefully before you answer.
No need...
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Azdgari on December 21, 2012, 02:25:04 PM
Think carefully before you answer.
No need...

This explains a great deal about your posts.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 03:12:52 PM
Think carefully before you answer.
No need...

This explains a great deal about your posts.
No. Just didn't need to think carefully for that particular post. :P
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Azdgari on December 21, 2012, 03:19:53 PM
It reflects worse on you if you do think carefully about your posts, given how they end up.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Brakeman on December 21, 2012, 03:21:23 PM
Oh gosh, Brakeman is back. It is almost normal around here.
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/transferir_zpsfbb036ed.jpg)

Don't do that Shin! God will send you to hell!
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Quesi on December 21, 2012, 07:25:12 PM
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...
[/quote]

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/World_religions_pie_chart.png)

I just wanted to point out that less than 1/3 of the world's population considers themselves Christian.  The overwhelming majority of Christians are Catholic.  And we know how you feel about Catholics.  If you count the Catholics, it  certainly still constitutes "billions"  plural.  But not by a lot.  If you are looking for folks who interpret the scriptures in a way that is similar to your interpretation, certainly less than a billion.

Not that it really matters.  Just because a lot of people believe something, doesn't make it true.  When the majority of human beings believed the earth was flat, that did not make the earth flat. 

But I just wanted to point it out.   
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 08:21:38 PM
^ We are talking about a belief in a supreme being. Not just christians :P So yes, whether u like it or not, we are billions.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 21, 2012, 09:42:11 PM
^ We are talking about a belief in a supreme being. Not just christians :P So yes, whether u like it or not, we are billions.


Is belief in a supreme being the one and only characteristic you value? Do you truly equate your POV with that of a muslim father who has just beheaded his own daughter for turning down a marriage proposal. Do you truly equate your POV with the hindus and buddhists and muslims and yes, christians, who adhere to and employ the caste system on the Indian subcontinent? Do you truly equate your POV with the hard-hearted bullies of Westboro Baptist Church in the US? Do you truly equate your POV with the Klu Klux Klan? Do you truly equate your POV with the Ugandan bishop who wants to not just ban, but execute gays?


Its fine if you said that because you are desperate. I wouldn't be able to blame you for that. Desperate posts call for desperate measures. But it sucks if you are actually able to believe one thing about the religions you disagree with one minute and then believe something completely opposite the next.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Schizoid on December 21, 2012, 11:43:53 PM
For myself it would be:  Heaven?  A place of eternal torture forever?  YES.  For me, heaven would be hell.

As an ex-Christian who sincerely accepted Jesus I have been assured by the "once saved, always saved" believers that I am going to heaven whether I want to or not, no choice now.  For eternity I would be turned into some kind of worship robot praising a Supreme Being who I rejected for decades and viewed the god of the Old Testament as a psychopath.   A Supreme Being that must have a Supreme Ego that sees nothing wrong with bathing in the worship of his creation for eternity  I would think that after a few millenia even he would get tired of having his ego stroked and just say, "Enough already, on your way".

For me heaven would be a place of eternal torture forever.  Being a schizoid I prefer my own company, being alone.  In heaven, as a worship zombie, I would be forced for eternity to endure the company of those who I despised in mortal life not for their beliefs but for their hypocrisy and how they mistreated and judged others.  Heaven would be hell.  No thanks, I'd rather be dead forever.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Garja on December 22, 2012, 12:17:48 AM
^ only good part would have been getting to talk with other dead people... but if its only the christians, it doesn't seem like a very fun conversation.  Now if I could sit down, have a coffee with Jefferson, Franklin, Twain, Hemingway, and Hitchens - sign me up.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 22, 2012, 01:10:15 AM
Shin: when someone is with Yahweh in heaven, is it possible for them to sin? 
No.

Think carefully before you answer.
No need...

So....there is a state that a soul can be in where it is impossible for it to sin.  And yet, presumably, in heaven, we are not stripped of free will, nor feel constrained by feeling forced to love.

If the state is acheivable, then we could have been created in that exact state - and therefore, as I've said, the only reason for us NOT to have been is the ego-stroke for Yahweh.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Shandi on December 22, 2012, 06:03:04 AM
Guys, these discussions with Shin are really boring and meaningless. He talks bullshit and has no idea what he is talking about. He doesn´t get that being an atheist means don´t even care about stuff like heaven and hell etc. What´s his goal? trying to get everyone here to become a believer? Waste of time. Have a serious discussion? He doesn´t even answer right. Just leave him alone with his believes and his god.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 22, 2012, 11:42:44 AM
His sig line of "making atheists cry......" I guessis supposed to be some kind of boast - but given the way he seems unable to answer questions other than with rote response - or maybe even to understand the questions at all - I suspect all the atheists he has ever met have ended up just crying in frustration as he lets loose another platitudinous non sequiteur.

The sad thing is he probably regards that as a positive trait for his god, rather than an unwillingness to consider the harder questions of his faith.  Sometimes I wish Afadly would come back - sure, he was just as mental, but at least he had a good stab at a debate.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 22, 2012, 02:27:48 PM
A timely addition to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_a6RjR_AHY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_a6RjR_AHY)
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 22, 2012, 02:38:30 PM
^ Not really... :P
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Brakeman on December 22, 2012, 04:29:55 PM
Shin,
What do you make of these claims by other christians that god speaks to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09p2_fbpLw0
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 22, 2012, 04:41:07 PM
^ I have seen them all. As the attempts that evolutionists make to try & disprove the existence of God, so are those claims made by self-proclaimed christians who do not want to keep the Law & highly regard the false doctrines of the churches of men they are in.

Remember the days of old. The true prophets were always met with many false accusations & much persecution. Surely, there is nothing new under the sun. But soon, all will see, the great wonders these 144.000 will do in the sight of men. Proclaiming Messiah to be the source of their power. Soon, all the peoples will know that a prophet had been among them.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Brakeman on December 22, 2012, 05:05:08 PM
Shin,

What about this guy?

http://ttruthalwaysprevails.blogspot.com/2011/12/surprising-background-info-on-false.html

In this post a former follower claims that your prophet does demand tithes from his followers. Have you given money to him?
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Brakeman on December 22, 2012, 05:13:38 PM
Shin,

Did you have to separate from any friends or family or give money to this man because he said so?

The main requirements of "trumpet call of god" is that followers and members "separate"-CUT OFF ALL CONTACT from *anyone* who won't accept and belive Timothy's letters as "the word of God",this includes *family and friends. They must only communicate with fellow members. They are also FORBIDDEN to attend church because according to Timothy "all churches and their doctrines now belong to satan" and only HIS "gospel" is the "truth". (This makes the indoctrination process easier).

Violating any of Timothy's "rules" such as attending church, not separating from friends and/or family often results in EXPULSION from the group ("the lord's banquet table"), if he cannot exercise complete control over you, you are thrown out.

Now "trumpeters" will often reference and twist Scripture to justify this(separating from loved ones), but the Bible never commands anyone to "separate" from fellow believers! The irony...
http://ttruthalwaysprevails.blogspot.com/2011/12/damaging-testimonies-of-past-members-of.html (http://ttruthalwaysprevails.blogspot.com/2011/12/damaging-testimonies-of-past-members-of.html)
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 22, 2012, 05:30:24 PM
It's all fake. Please stop bothering me with that. I have done more research than you to know if he was the real deal or not. No, I have never given him money. No, noone has given him money that I know of. & finally, if he did in fact, one day, ask us to tithe, I would immediatly declare him as a false prophet. Period.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 22, 2012, 05:34:00 PM
There is nothing u can show me discrediting that dude that I haven't already seen.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 22, 2012, 06:37:34 PM
Go easy on him folks. We don't want SHIN to end up feeling the way I did when I found out this was fake.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE0Q904gtMI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE0Q904gtMI)


Disappointment hurts.
Title: Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
Post by: Brakeman on December 22, 2012, 07:10:15 PM
There is nothing u can show me discrediting that dude that I haven't already seen.
So explain to us why these people who were in the group left and now discredit him?
Wouldn't they know? Why would they lie about it if they have seen the same letters from god that you have? Does it make sense that they could unbelieve something that was truly real and god spoken?

Here's another:
   Amy Davey    06 Jul 2011
This is a wonderful article, and full of truth though I do have to admit that it hurt a little when you mentioned that people who fall for these deceivers are those who are not grounded in the word of God (but I know sometimes truth hurts). About a year ago, I belonged to a little known cult under a false prophet named ‘Timothy’ (real name Speed) Rathbun. I had faithfully read my bible at 5am every day before I joined for the 5 years after I was born again. I was a devout Christian (and still am), but I have recently realized that by allowing me to go through that God has magnified for me the weaknesses in my faith and I believe that he will work to strengthen those areas. I found out that I had unknowingly been harboring a distorted view of God where I saw the need to constantly strive to do better in order to maintain his favour. The distorted view may have come from past experiences in my childhood which were so deeply ingrained that I didn’t really see them at all. I wish I didn’t but I can understand how people can fall for the lies, it’s almost like the scripture and lies fit with the distorted view we have and so it “makes sense”. After being in the group a while of course I just believed everything the prophet told us, I didn’t really question it and if I did I felt horrible as if I had doubted God himself. We were also taught that the bible was misinterpreted and so God was setting things straight through this prophet. It is terrible that this can happen to people, but I would have told you I was a very faith filled Christian before I fell for this and I loved walking with and getting to know God. I think a lot of us don’t really know we have those kind of distorted views and how they can really taint our thinking when we read scripture, and when someone preys on that it makes the gap even wider. I hope that many people read this article (I kind of wish I had beforehand), but I really hope people don’t judge those in these groups because though they maybe should have been more grounded in the word, it is easier to stand on the outside and say ‘it wouldn’t be me standing there’ than to actually be put in that position. Satan can be a very crafty deceiver; I truly hope we will all pray for those who are caught in the deception.


Why do you think she is deceived and that you aren't? What could you know that she doesn't?