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Main Discussion Zone => Religion In The News => Topic started by: Nick on October 18, 2012, 02:32:09 PM

Title: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 18, 2012, 02:32:09 PM
Hey, we can all relax now.  Billy Graham has taken Mormonism off his web site of cults.  After his meeting with Romney a week ago, Billy has decided this might be his last election and wants to get the right kind of guy into the White House.  Now Mormons must be just like other Christians.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: stuffin on October 18, 2012, 02:38:34 PM
Excellent news. I wonder what Romney had to promise him for his support?
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Dante on October 18, 2012, 02:43:30 PM
My first impulse is to deride and admonish him for changing his mind solely to facilitate getting a repub into the WH. Does he have no convictions?

But, upon reflection, maybe his meeting with Romney provided him with the necessary evidence to change his mind for a more altruistic purpose.

Hey, it could happen.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: screwtape on October 18, 2012, 02:44:39 PM
Billy Graham has succumbed to Satan.

Mormons are xians in the same way muslims are xians or the same way xians are jews.

Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 18, 2012, 03:01:53 PM
Billy will probably be getting a very special pair of undies for Christmas. ;)
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2012, 03:25:40 PM
He'll be welcome on the Mormon planet for sure!

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 07:04:19 AM

Mormons are xians in the same way muslims are xians or the same way xians are jews.

I disagree.They accept the divinity of Christ; AFAIAC that makes them Christians. A weirdly mutated form of Christianity, but not quite enough to diverge from the minimum requirement. Sort of how the food laws require how something has to be at least 10% juice to be called juice.

I guess the best analogy would be the Jews for Jesus, they are Christian...and Jewish but more Christian.


Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: screwtape on October 19, 2012, 08:12:25 AM
I disagree.They accept the divinity of Christ; AFAIAC that makes them Christians.

If that's your criterion, then yeah. 

But I see it as xianity was based on and grew from judaism.  It added to the mythology with a second collection of booklets and modified the earlier theology.  Islam did the same with xianity.  From my perspective, joe smith - who mormons see as only slightly less important than jesus H - did the same thing.  In my book, they aint xians. 
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: jaimehlers on October 19, 2012, 08:53:21 AM
They're still in the "diverging from" stage, so I don't think they can be considered a different religion than Christianity.  As far as I know, they didn't reinterpret the basic message of Jesus Christ, which is the key consideration.  Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: screwtape on October 19, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.

Where did jesus H mention Kolob?
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 19, 2012, 11:43:57 AM
And you do realize that the garden of Eden is in Gallitan, Mo.  Mormons buy up land there whenever it becomes available.  Take trips to be on the land and feel the holiness of it.  Wonder what old Billy Graham thinks of that.  I live about 40 miles from there.  Believe me...Gallitan is no Eden. ;)

PS - There are several guys there named Adam...makes you wonder!!!??? :o
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 11:54:04 AM
Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.

Where did jesus H mention Kolob?

That Apocrypha...fan fiction essentially...was added isn't the issue at hand. It is the definition of Christianity. There are gob and gobs and gobs of variation of Christianity, from the "personal relationship with Christ" to "the bible is literally true" to "The bible is a document inspired by God, but should be interpreted through the Holy Father, who infallible" (therefore the Pope is greater than the Bible...but good luck getting Catholics to directly admit that) to the Jesus freak Hippies.....What can qualify as a belief that allows all of them to be Christians....but would exclude people who wouldn't consider themselves Christians, such as Islamics and Jews.

My personal opinion is the acceptance of the divinity of Christ is the one common thread throughout all of these...and thus Mormonism gets in.

Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2012, 12:05:13 PM
They're still in the "diverging from" stage, so I don't think they can be considered a different religion than Christianity.  As far as I know, they didn't reinterpret the basic message of Jesus Christ, which is the key consideration.  Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.

Have you read The Book of Mormon? I have.

What does Kolob (I believe) have to do with Jesus?

Did you know Jesus came to the US before anywhere else? Native American Indians are the descendants of the True people of Israel, oh, and they were white people.

Did you know: only white people get into heaven?

Also, did you know that all Churches everywhere are run by Satan? All of them.

What does some alien planet, and magic underwear have to do with Jesus?

The Book of Mormon is a racist, sexist, and nutty book written by a racist, a sexist, and a nut. And, everything in it is either those things or the "wisdom" (like much of the Bible) plaigerized from something or some else.

It's mainly a book against black people and Catholics.

It's a book of hate.

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 19, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
Gee, I hope Romney did not get any on him last night when he sat next to the Catholic Cardinal at the Smith Dinner in New York.

They did DNA on the Indians that the Mormons said were part of one early missing tribes of Israel.  No match.  Still they chug on.

Did Mitt happen to mention that Satan thing to Billy Graham the other night?
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2012, 12:59:25 PM
I doubt it.

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: screwtape on October 19, 2012, 01:46:15 PM
My personal opinion is the acceptance of the divinity of Christ is the one common thread throughout all of these...and thus Mormonism gets in.

I got that the first time around.  I'm not saying your defintion is wrong.  I just don't agree with it.  That may be because I am prejudiced against mormons and am gleeful at the prospect of calling them a cult.  Though, I consider there to be no difference between a religion and a cult, it is an unnecessary excuse. 

Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 02:01:20 PM
My personal opinion is the acceptance of the divinity of Christ is the one common thread throughout all of these...and thus Mormonism gets in.

I got that the first time around.  I'm not saying your defintion is wrong.  I just don't agree with it.  That may be because I am prejudiced against mormons and am gleeful at the prospect of calling them a cult.  Though, I consider there to be no difference between a religion and a cult, it is an unnecessary excuse.

Okay, so we are in disagreement. What is your definition of Christianity? I was making my case for my definition, I just want to see you explicitly state yours and give your case for that definition. After all, part of the purpose of conversing is to meet someone with, to use a metaphor, better kung fu than you, and copy them. Not just agreement and/or arguement.

I understand that sometimes I am cockey, but I have been shown wrong on a lot...a LOT..of occasions, and when that happens, I learn to change.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 19, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
All religions are cults.  It is just that some become accepted by society.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: naemhni on October 19, 2012, 02:14:36 PM
All religions are cults.  It is just that some become accepted by society.

I don't agree.  I think cultism is a very specific phenomenon that applies only to a small subset of religions.

Probably the best piece I've ever read on this is Agent Orange's "Cult Test".  He gives a list of one hundred traits -- the more traits a particular group has, the more likely it is that you're looking at a cult.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
(Be warned in advance that it's a very long read.  Terry is very verbose.)

So if you apply the checklist to, say, Toastmasters, you might get three or four characteristics at most, so you conclude that Toastmasters is not a cult.  Apply it to the Catholic Church, and you'll get more, but still probably not enough to call Catholicism a cult.  Apply the checklist to Scientology, and it's easy to see that Scientology is a cult.  (Not that I think that you or anyone else here at WWGHA would have ever had any doubts about that, of course.)
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2012, 02:59:12 PM
I don't think Mormonism is a cult, I think it's a racist, sexist, bigoted institution.

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 03:29:41 PM
All religions are cults.  It is just that some become accepted by society.

The difference between a religion and a cult is the size of their voting lobby
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Backspace on October 19, 2012, 09:09:40 PM
The Book of Mormon is a racist, sexist, and nutty book written by a racist, a sexist, and a nut.

I don't think Mormonism is a cult, I think it's a racist, sexist, bigoted institution.

You forgot to mention the nuts...  ;)
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2012, 10:48:18 PM
The squrriels ate 'em.

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Chronos on October 21, 2012, 07:07:35 AM
Christianity is a cult.

Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: screwtape on October 21, 2012, 10:15:28 AM
Okay, so we are in disagreement. What is your definition of Christianity? I was making my case for my definition, I just want to see you explicitly state yours and give your case for that definition. After all, part of the purpose of conversing is to meet someone with, to use a metaphor, better kung fu than you, and copy them. Not just agreement and/or arguement.

Okay.  I would say divinity of jesus H is part of it.  But just having that particular belief does not make one a xian, I think.  The extra beliefs on top of that matter.  If believed jesus H was god/son of god, but also that Abraham, Krishna, Mohammed, joe smith and L Ron Hubbard were also all god/ sons of god, could you still call me a xian?  How about if I also believed in reincarnation?  I'd say no.  All that other stuff negates the title of xian. 

In xianity - or any religious, political, philosophical system - it is not only important to believe certain things to hold the title.  It is also important to not believe other things.  If you call yourself a xian, there are certain things you cannot believe.  You cannot believe that the gods of the hindu pantheon are actual gods or are benevolent.  You cannot believe Satan is equally powerful as yhwh.  You cannot believe Mary was an alien from Alpha Centauri.  You cannot believe yhwh corrected the teaching of jesus H through Mohammed.

I know mormonism is not as wildly divergent as calling L Ron Hubbard a messiah.  But I think it is divergent enough to say, it ain't xian.  On a scale of xianity, I would illustrate thusly:

judaism........................................................islam............lds.............xianity

what is illustrated are the 3 religions' relative distance to xianity, not each other.  I think lds is closer than the other two, but I would still say it's not xian.  I know some things about mormonism, and I've read parts of the book of mormon.  But I would not say I am expert enough in it to argue the point exhaustively. 

Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: jetson on October 21, 2012, 03:47:00 PM
I think we also need to consider that Joseph Smith, the racist bigot who invented Mormonism, has tried to re-write history around what many Christians believe is the history of Jesus, and the native Americans.  It is beyond laughable at how terribly void of factual information this cult actually is, and spectacularly unbelievable that modern humans would buy it as truth.

And now, we could see an actual President who thinks it's real.  It is absolutely the worst pretend version of christianity I have ever seen.

And to those who suppor the GOP - how can you sit back and let such a thing enter the office of the President of the United States of America?
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 21, 2012, 04:19:57 PM
Moronism seems to me be be one big a$$ ponsi scheme.  10% of your money is required along with missions and on and on.  The ones at the top get rich with no accounting.  They have their fingers in all kind of investments and companies.  You saw how they tried to influence voting in California with the gay marriage thing.  If Romney gets in you have to wonder what influences the higher ups in the Mormon Church will getting terms of increasing the wealth of the church.  I guess it is who you know in this case.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 21, 2012, 06:51:48 PM
Jetson,

Anything is better, in their mind, than a left-wing fascist dictating communist liberal.

They are the party of capitulators, and they love to be fucked in the ass.

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: jetson on October 21, 2012, 06:53:14 PM
Jetson,

Anything is better, in their mind, than a left-wing fascist dictating communist liberal.

They are the party of capitulators, and they love to be fucked in the ass.

-Nam

Yeah, fuck the country, as long as they don't have to vote for a democrat. 
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: rev45 on October 21, 2012, 07:47:48 PM
And to those who suppor the GOP - how can you sit back and let such a thing enter the office of the President of the United States of America?
Look at those who ran.  If it wasn't Romney's brand of crazy it was going to be another.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: jetson on October 21, 2012, 07:52:00 PM
And to those who suppor the GOP - how can you sit back and let such a thing enter the office of the President of the United States of America?
Look at those who ran.  If it wasn't Romney's brand of crazy it was going to be another.

If they could keep that personal stuff to themselves, we could focus on their secular solutions/ideas.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 21, 2012, 10:02:21 PM
There is a politician in central Miss who says women should not have the vote. Republicans are becoming our version of the Tailban.  They just dress nicer and don't live in caves.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 21, 2012, 10:25:04 PM
^they only say that 'cause women vote more than men and usually for the liberal.

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Chronos on October 22, 2012, 01:21:24 AM
Behind The Veil: Never Before Seen Footage of Secret Mormon Temple Rituals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udew9axmdM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udew9axmdM
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: jetson on October 22, 2012, 06:32:25 AM
There is a politician in central Miss who says women should not have the vote. Republicans are becoming our version of the Tailban.  They just dress nicer and don't live in caves.

I'm sure there is a white man behind her idea.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Tykster on October 24, 2012, 11:48:08 AM
These are not my words, they are attributed to a Dr. Jeff Schweitzer, but give a good and concise account of some of the main aspects of Mormonism :

Mitt Romney, And What You Should Know About Mormons

Most folks are unfamiliar with the real story of how Mormonism originated.  Prior to having a Mormon run for president, such historic ignorance was benign enough.  No more; voters really need to understand what they are getting when voting for Romney. We are reticent to discuss religion on the campaign trail, but the media is nearly criminally negligent in ignoring the story of Mormonism.  Voters need to know the core belief system of the candidate, and what Mormons believe is anything but mainstream.  You will think I am making up the stories below, because they are transparently the work of an uneducated peasant mind, but you can easily verify them for yourselves by going to the Mormon website itself, or better yet, read the Book of Mormon and the Mormon Book of Abraham and decide for yourself.

In the early 1800s, in Palmyra, New York, a local boy claimed he could divine the location of ground water, as well as treasures buried by Indians.  Persuasive as a snake-oil salesman, farmers paid him $3, a princely sum then, to find buried riches on their land.  The boy, Joseph, used “magic stones” to discover the sites of this bounty.  When he inevitably failed to find either water or treasure, he would leave town, often with “encouragement,” and move on to other fee-based treasure-hunting activities in another town.

After a particularly large and humiliating failure in the Susquehanna Valley, near Damascus, New York, Smith stayed on to court a local gal, Emma Hale, in spite of community accusations that he was a “charlatan.”  In the spring of 1826, a group of unhappy customers went further and brought formal charges against Joseph, claiming he was nothing but an imposter.  He was subsequently convicted of “glass gazing,” an outlawed form of fortune telling. Emma’s dad, Isaac, was one of the duped treasure hunters who testified against Joseph, so he was not pleased by the courtship of his daughter by this convicted criminal.  He considered Joseph to be arrogant, fraudulent and lazy.  Those who knew Joseph best claimed, “He could utter the most palpable exaggeration or marvelous absurdity with the utmost apparent gravity.”  Others said that Joseph was “in particular considered entirely destitute of moral character and addicted to vicious habits.”  But Joseph was persuasive to some, and Emma eloped with him in January 1827.  To reconcile with his estranged father-in-law, Joseph promised to lead a more honest and honorable life, and to help Isaac on his farm.

Instead of working in the field, however, Isaac found Joseph spending all his time indoors.  When he finally investigated, he discovered his son-in-law muttering long phrases from the Bible, with Emma sitting behind a curtain writing down Joseph’s ramblings.  Joseph explained that he had found two ancient golden plates by digging in a spot to which he had been led by an angel.  He claimed the plates were written in “reformed Egyptian.”  No such language exists.  Fortunately, the two plates conveniently came with their own set of Rosetta stones, allowing him to translate the symbols to English, which explained his indoor activities.  Joseph Smith was translating the ancient Book of Mormon.  The “ancient” part might be in question, though, since the book agitated against such contemporary institutions as Freemasons, and even Catholicism. Sadly, the plates mysteriously disappeared before the dates could be authenticated. In fact, Joseph declared that instant death would be the result for anybody but him looking at the golden plates.  Nobody but Joseph, the fraudulent diviner fromPalmyra, ever saw the plates. Only through the tainted word of a convicted con man do people know of the existence and content of those disappeared golden tablets.  So terribly odd that such a monumental discovery would be hidden and destroyed rather than proudly shown to the world to prove that god’s word had been found at last.

Are the claims of Joseph Smith any less bizarre than those of Marshall Applewhite and Heaven’s Gate or David Koresh and the Branch Davidians?  Without large numbers, Mormonism would be considered just another lunatic cult, with a foundation no less ridiculous or no different from Heaven’s Gate or the Branch Davidians.  But why would you care?  Here is why:  because unlike Applewhite or Koresh, Mormons are trying to elect a man to lead our government who believes in a religious philosophy that is strongly anti-American.  Apostle Orson Pratt, speaking officially for the Mormon Church, said: “The kingdom of God (by which he means the Mormon priesthood) is an order of government established by Divine authority …. All other governments are illegal and unauthorized…. Any people attempting to govern themselves by laws of their own making, and by officers of their own appointment, are in direct rebellion against the kingdom of God”.  Romney as a devout Mormon believes that the United States government is illegitimate.  I hope readers find that sufficiently frightening.

Another oddity comes up when looking at Romney supporters.  Evangelical Christians by right should be supporting the candidate who is a devout and faithful Christian family man, that is, Barack Obama, rather than the follower of a thoroughly anti-Christian religion.  Have no doubt that Mormonism perverts all fundamental Christian tenets (which of course are themselves strange); specifically for example Mormons are taught that Christ’s atonement has nothing to do with our sins.  It would seem that being black is more disqualifying than being anti-Christian in the eyes of evangelicals.  There is really no other convincing explanation for why an evangelical would support Romney.

Finally, voters really need to know the fundamental beliefs of the Mormons if Romney is to occupy the Oval Office.  Even by the strange standards of religion these beliefs are breathtaking.  And we are not talking just about sacred underwear, which the official Mormon website describes as “garments worn as an outward expression of inward commitment” with no further explanation.  We gather though that wearing “the whole armor of God” offers the wearer protection from temptation as a physical reminder not to sin.  But underwear are not nearly the biggest eye opener. Take the planet Kolob (sometimes references as a star) described in the Mormon Book of Abraham, another Joseph Smith publication.  Kolob is the heavenly body closest to god’s throne, yet to be discovered by astronomers.  This god living on or near this planet or star, conceived “billions of spirit children” who were sent to earth to take on mortal bodies and learn good from evil (I’m not making this up, really).   First, the Mormon god on Kolob and one of his goddess wives came to earth in the form of Adam and Eve to start the human race.  So in Mormonism, Adam is god himself, not a creation of god.  According to Mormonism, Genesis is all wrong; in fact the entire Pentateuch is wrong.  Once the human race began and the spirit children from Kolob occupied those mortal bodies, those who remained neutral in the fight between good and evil would be “cursed to be born with black skin.”  Some Mormons believe that god created black people when Cain killed Abel, with God giving Cain black skin to punish him and all his children.  Either way, being black is not a good attribute to Mormons.  African Americans might want to pause before punching the lever for Romney.

So, anyway, God went home back to Kolob after starting the human race, but then a few thousand years later returned to earth to have sex with the Virgin Mary in order to provide Jesus with a physical body.  With that physical body Jesus took three wives, Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene, from whom Joseph Smith claims direct descent.  After Jesus’s resurrection, he came to North America to preach to the Native Americans, who Mormons believe are Israelites. And then the story gets weird (compared to what you’ve just read, so you can imagine), leading ultimately to the gold plates eventually found by Joseph Smith.

Another oddity to consider:  Mormons baptize the dead, even if the deceased would have objected to the process in life.  But it is hard to get an argument from a corpse. This is something else one would think would turn off any evangelical Christian.  But being black is worse, and apparently that is something Mormons and evangelicals can agree upon.

So next time you consider voting for Romney, think of Kolob, spirit children, black people as sinners, sacred underwear, Adam as god, Jesus’s three wives and their descendant Joseph Smith, and finally, the Mormon belief that the United States government is illegitimate.  But hey, the choice is yours.

Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 24, 2012, 12:12:43 PM
Tykster,

I read the Book of Mormon (I started a topic on it earlier this year) and it's much more crazier than all that. But, this guy is speaking to Christians (protestant and Catholic non-Mormons) and they already believe in a lot of crazy shit from their own Bible. I don't think itlll have much effect.

Also, how many here, as atheists, believe Obama is a Christian? I think he's an atheist pretending to be a Christian. Just like Lincoln.

-Nam
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Tykster on October 25, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
I think Obama is a political Christian... he doesn't seem to "embrace" the Christian thing, it always seems like he's paying just enough lip service to it to appease.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nick on October 25, 2012, 10:37:08 AM
He's most likely an aheist.  His mother was and I think his father also.  When he went to Chicago and worked in on the South Side he needed to fit in.  You need to be part of the black church culture to do that.  In politics you also have to play the game.  I would imagine there are a lot of people playing the game inculding preachers.
Title: Re: Mormonism not a cult
Post by: Nam on October 25, 2012, 11:36:07 AM
"You don't score, 'til you score." -- wait, that's something else.

-Nam