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Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: mr logicfaith on September 10, 2012, 04:36:52 PM

Title: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: mr logicfaith on September 10, 2012, 04:36:52 PM
I've heard all the "I'm open minded / logical / and still no miracles happen" stuff, and I'm really curious how things would go down if y'all actually started to see "miracles."

enter hypothetical universe 100047:
(in this universe, what I say below happens, any arguments comparing it to our universe are invalid. kthx.)

This universe is exactly the same as this one - but some surprising stuff happens:

Let's say I found a way to ask God for healing for amputees in a way that he answers.
So, I'm able to heal amputees by asking God / Jesus to heal them - and their limbs regrow in about a minute -- causing them to gain weight and mass proportionate to the newly regrown appendage.

So, I go around healing everybody who's missing limbs. It's scientifically proven, tested, to the satisfaction of everyone. Limbs are regrowing in accordance with what's written in the bible.

Then to make things clear, I go around repeating every miracle in the bible - 'cept the once where ppl got killed, cuz I'm not into killing. They're proven. Mountains move, I walk on water and stop storms and turn the sun to darkness, raise George Washington from the dead, spawn entire planets from  nothing and populate them in days, predict a 100 digit random number 100s of times in a row, etc...


Does this prove that God exists?

1. You could say "aliens with super technology altering quantum states magically make this happen in accordance with the bible to make it seem like the bible is true."
(This would be curious. How can you prove God isn't an multi-dimentional alien overlord?)


2. You could say "People have always possessed this power, and you've simply unlocked it using codes written into the bible - it's not true, religious documents are just the most popular way to transfer extremely powerful information."

Well, if evolution is the case, you're admitting that you believe that somehow beings evolve to higher levels of consciousness can alter the universe tele-kinetically.
(in this case, we could design a biological super computer that could make entire real planets or spawn people.)


3. Say that we're all just part of a supercomputer simulation, and this stuff is just part of the game... and winners who can believe in the bible get super powers.
(once again, this doesn't prove that "God" doesn't exist)


4: Believe the bible and God is real, and satan has been working his hardest to keep people from finding the truth... and inventing all sorts of ways around people actually believing in God.
(in this case, you'd have to sift out all the lies you've been believing and find the truth like I did)


What would you choose? I'm really curious what y'all really think.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: jetson on September 10, 2012, 04:45:20 PM
There could be a point where many would conclude that events like these are enough to prove that a god exists.  As an atheist, I might be obliged to go with the evidence and just agree. 

However - why can't this triple-omni god figure make it obvious by just presenting himself to the world, explaining everything, and granting everyone the same truth, with little to question?

I've always said, if a god is shown to be real, there would be few, if any atheists.

Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Garja on September 10, 2012, 04:46:52 PM
As you mention, there are still alternatives to 'god' as we think of it even in this scenario.  However, they way you described it; yes, at that point I would believe in god.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Gohavesomefun on September 10, 2012, 04:53:09 PM
Kind of just proved the point that only by providing the impossible could you make anyone believe. It's like a cheap bargaining chip to offer someone, like a salesman offering a car you can get on the premise you'll believe whatever it is they'll sell you. I'm not buying it, I'm sorry.

However, to play nice; if you did all those things and all scientific reasoning was left absoultely dumbfounded and lost as per an explanation; then maybe I'd believe you had "Godlike" powers, but it still wouldn't make me believe.

I suppose the only thing that would make me believe at this moment in my life is if the supposed almighty showed and proved to me they were God.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: none on September 10, 2012, 04:58:19 PM
I don't know if I would believe... the scenario and solutions combined are to complicated.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: HAL on September 10, 2012, 05:29:31 PM
1. You could say "aliens with super technology altering quantum states magically make this happen in accordance with the bible to make it seem like the bible is true."

I'd choose this option because we know life exists in the universe (us) and we have no evidence of gods. So the most reasonable assumption is that an advanced life form is helping you with the healings.

Quote
(This would be curious. How can you prove God isn't an multi-dimentional alien overlord?)

Well it might be though. I'd have to be presented with specific evidence as to what entity is causing these hearings. If they are happening then they are happening - I couldn't deny the truth of it. But why couldn't the god show itself if it is presumably acting in a way to remove faith?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: wright on September 10, 2012, 05:44:10 PM
In such a situation, I'd gladly concede that you had the powers attributed to many gods. That still wouldn't definitively prove the existence of the Christian god, or indeed any god.

That being said, if your hypothetical universe has everything being the same except (presumably) Biblegod being real and giving you these powers, a skeptic atheist like me still has some problems with accepting his existence. Those being the same ones I have in this universe, primarily: where the f*ck has he been all this time?

4: Believe the bible and God is real, and satan has been working his hardest to keep people from finding the truth... and inventing all sorts of ways around people actually believing in God.
(in this case, you'd have to sift out all the lies you've been believing and find the truth like I did)

How is Satan, in Christian mythology a created being no less than I, able to thwart the will of his creator? The story of Job makes it clear that in that instance, god let Satan destroy Job's livelihood, health and family, just to make a point. God having that kind of casual cruelty fits the observed universe and human history far more than an omni-benevolent god who stays unseen and undetected, never helping his followers more than random chance can explain.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: jetson on September 10, 2012, 05:56:28 PM
Indeed, I would not bow to this god if it made itself known.  It would then have to show itself worthy of any sort of respect.  Perhaps this god could clear up all of the confusion created by the Bible, and truly show that it was misrepresented, and lies were written by ignorant humans.

For that matter, why couldn't such a powerful god just make me worship it?

In the words of the mighty Hulk, "puny god".
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Quesi on September 10, 2012, 06:40:38 PM
I really have to agree with Jetson here. 

If you were able to move mountains and walk on water, I would certainly concede that you (or some force or being enabling you to do these things) was amazingly powerful.

But while I might be impressed by this power, I would not be inclined to worship either you, or the force or being enabling you to do this stuff.  I am awed by the ability of elephants to create roads through jungles, moving trees aside with their trunks.  I am also awed by ants, who are able to lift things so much bigger than their little bodies, and transport them huge distances, relative to their size.  But I don't worship these amazing creatures.   

I can respect raw power.  But before I could respect an omniscient, omnipotent being who has caused, or at least allowed, so much pain, I would need a really good explanation.  Not a "Satan did it" explanation, and not a "god is testing you" explanation, and not a "god doesn't give you any burdens you can't bear" explanation, and not a "it is the free will" explanation, and not an "Adam and Eve sinned so babies are dying in the Sudan" explanation. 

I can't imagine what sort of an explanation would satisfy me.  But it would have to be pretty damn impressive. 
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: shnozzola on September 10, 2012, 07:59:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tTU00m5MB0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tTU00m5MB0)

This is how I picture a theist performing to get me to believe.  When I was a christian, I liked this movie.  There is still something about it I admire.  Maybe because John Denver sticks to his guns, no matter how he is treated.  The more I agree with the argument that there absolutely is no god, the more disappointed I am in theist's arguments.  It becomes so simple, so natural, but so much more amazing without god.  Impossible miracles?   Exactly.  Oops - I compared it to the real universe - sorry. :-[   Invalid.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Nick on September 10, 2012, 08:18:54 PM
I think I might be more pissed.  So God turns out to be real. Why did He let kids starve to death in Africa for year after year?.  Why did 6 million Jews have to die horrible deaths in Nazi camps?  What is wrong with this God and why would I want to worship It?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: screwtape on September 11, 2012, 11:43:10 AM
I suppose the only thing that would make me believe at this moment in my life is if the supposed almighty showed and proved to me they were God.

But how would that be done? 

In your fantasy scenario miracles are being done, but how?  As far as I can tell, that remains unknown.  They just seem to be similar to other alleged miracles as described in the bible.  In that hypothetical scenario, we would just be witnessing things that boggled our minds.  And that is not evidence of anything but our own ignorance.  Thus, we still are not any closer to seeing yhwh. 

That is the problem you have when you have defined an entity in such a way that it is completely incoherent.  yhwh is supposedly perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, outside space, abstract.  Does any of that add up?  To me, it doesn't.  But even assuming it does, how could you or I verify any of those qualities if one day someone claiming to be God (capital G) showed up?



It could be possible that this definition of yhwh is inaccurate.  Perhaps yhwh is a powerful being that has powers we cannot understand, but they are not limitless.  And he knows far more than us, but not everything.  And he can live a really, really long time, but is not eternal.  Then, what is he?  Not God (capital G).  Maybe not even a god (small g).  Or, worst of all, maybe all this god can do is manipulate our thoughts and make us feel sure it is god. 

My advice, if you meet someone claiming to be god, flee. He cannot be trusted and we could be fooled very easily. Wasn't that the point of Star Trek 5 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098382/)? 




Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: wright on September 11, 2012, 12:11:46 PM
I suppose the only thing that would make me believe at this moment in my life is if the supposed almighty showed and proved to me they were God.

But how would that be done? 

*snip*

That is the problem you have when you have defined an entity in such a way that it is completely incoherent.  yhwh is supposedly perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, outside space, abstract.  Does any of that add up?  To me, it doesn't.  But even assuming it does, how could you or I verify any of those qualities if one day someone claiming to be God (capital G) showed up?

  • What is a perfect being and how would I know it if I saw it? 
  • How could I verify omnipotence?  It could demonstrate extreme power, but maybe there are things it cannot do that it is concealing from me?
  • How could I verify omniscience?  It could demonstrate vast knowledge, but if it got something wrong that humans don't know about, there is no way we would know.
  • How could I verify eternal?

Excellent points, screwtape. For it to be possible for a god and definitive, verifiable evidence of that god's divine nature to exist, both the universe and human perception would have to be radically different.

And logicfaith, the universe you postulate, as you've described it, doesn't sound different enough for me to accept the existence of god even if I were in it.
 
Believers in the real world insist we take these things on faith, or desperately try to find "evidence" (from Jesus appearing on toast to the "written code" of DNA) of their deity outside their heads. But the evidence isn't there, and faith is no substitute for actually getting things done.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Gohavesomefun on September 11, 2012, 01:33:54 PM
How would the almighty prove to me they were God?

They would have to make something impossible by all rights of science; possible.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 11, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
That answer it would be evidence, not proof. It would certainly make me far more inclined to listen to and consider faith based viewpoints as valid. I would certainly be likely to become an agnostic theist to begin with, as there is now a demostration that standard empirism is flawed and the supernatural does exist.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Gohavesomefun on September 11, 2012, 02:11:40 PM
That answer it would be evidence, not proof. It would certainly make me far more inclined to listen to and consider faith based viewpoints as valid. I would certainly be likely to become an agnostic theist to begin with, as there is now a demostration that standard empirism is flawed and the supernatural does exist.
Seems like the same thing to me Hatter23!

Even if there was proof, imaciulate evidence; it wouldn't make me religous .I'd want to see what this God said or did if it could present itself to us in someway.

The whole question seems to have that underdone "if religion is right" rather than "If God Exists".
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: naemhni on September 11, 2012, 02:24:34 PM
What would you choose? I'm really curious what y'all really think.

There are some questions that are pointless to speculate on even as hypotheticals -- at least, if you intend to subsequently apply them to the real world in any way afterward.  If three Victoria's Secret models told me they wanted to spend a night of wild passion with me, would I cheat on my wife?  There's not much point in spending much time -- if, indeed, any at all -- on such a hypothetical inasmuch as there is essentially no chance of it ever happening (I am highly unlikely ever to marry, and even more unlikely to have any Victoria's Secret models throwing themselves at me).  And that's with a scenario that we know to be theoretically possible -- we can't even say that much with any certainty about amputees getting their limbs back.

So I guess my answer to your question is, I won't think about it until it ever actually happens, because unless and until it does, thinking about it would be a waste of time and a distraction from all the other things in my life that I want to give my attention to.  There are nowhere near enough hours in the day even as it is for me to do all the things I want to do.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: HAL on September 11, 2012, 02:38:47 PM
OK, I know what would prove to me it was a god.

If it gave me the power to destroy it - and I did - I would believe it was a god.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: screwtape on September 11, 2012, 02:47:10 PM
They would have to make something impossible by all rights of science; possible.

Such as...?  A thing could be possible and seem impossible because science is not quite right and we don't know it.  Our own limitations would make recognizing whether something truly impossible was done, impossible.   

You know, Penn and Teller do seemingly impossible things all the time and I cannot tell how they do it.  They did a mini series years ago where the toured the world to see how other cultures did magic.[1]  They found a street magician in India and played along with his act.  Then they realized they guy was trying to make people believe he was actually doing magic and conning them out of money, food, trinkets, etc.  They had an ethical problem with that and stopped helping him. 

But my point was, people believed it.  And if unsophisticated people believed other people can do magic, when in fact, they are not, then it is likely to me that even sophisticated people might be tricked into believing a powerful or advanced being is doing magic when it, in fact, is not.

So again, whither yhwh?
 1. Magic & Mystery Tour (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0398512/)
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Gohavesomefun on September 11, 2012, 04:36:01 PM
They would have to make something impossible by all rights of science; possible.

Such as...?  A thing could be possible and seem impossible because science is not quite right and we don't know it.  Our own limitations would make recognizing whether something truly impossible was done, impossible.   

You know, Penn and Teller do seemingly impossible things all the time and I cannot tell how they do it.  They did a mini series years ago where the toured the world to see how other cultures did magic.[1]  They found a street magician in India and played along with his act.  Then they realized they guy was trying to make people believe he was actually doing magic and conning them out of money, food, trinkets, etc.  They had an ethical problem with that and stopped helping him. 

But my point was, people believed it.  And if unsophisticated people believed other people can do magic, when in fact, they are not, then it is likely to me that even sophisticated people might be tricked into believing a powerful or advanced being is doing magic when it, in fact, is not.

So again, whither yhwh?
 1. Magic & Mystery Tour (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0398512/)
You enjoyed that little tangent.

I thought it was clear I was refering to something we know right now to be true and nothing else could contridict that. Thats the sort of impossible to possible I'm refering to. Simply changing anything in science that's deemed impossible, right down to raw equations (simply put 2+2 would equal 5).
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: kin hell on September 11, 2012, 04:56:44 PM
A god of love  removing instantly any and all cause for hate or anger or violence.

So we remained aware of our immediate past selves, but now were imbued with such empathy that the impetus to indulge in the failure of violence was no longer an personally acceptable option.

Then a fucking good explanation as to why the jerk had taken so long to get around to such an obvious and crucial patch.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: HAL on September 11, 2012, 05:02:18 PM
Simply changing anything in science that's deemed impossible, right down to raw equations (simply put 2+2 would equal 5).

No, a god can't do that (make 2 + 2 = 5). That's logic, and even Christian scholars would say that god cannot do the logically impossible. He might be able to change the charge on electrons or some such thing, but he can't change how logic works, even according to theists that understand these things.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Gohavesomefun on September 11, 2012, 05:31:17 PM
Simply changing anything in science that's deemed impossible, right down to raw equations (simply put 2+2 would equal 5).

No, a god can't do that (make 2 + 2 = 5). That's logic, and even Christian scholars would say that god cannot do the logically impossible. He might be able to change the charge on electrons or some such thing, but he can't change how logic works, even according to theists that understand these things.
So you're saying God has limitations? Not the almighty, all powerful creator I often hear about.

That's the point really. ;)
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 12, 2012, 05:09:59 AM
Let's say I found a way to ask God for healing for amputees in a way that he answers.
So, I'm able to heal amputees by asking God / Jesus to heal them - and their limbs regrow in about a minute -- causing them to gain weight and mass proportionate to the newly regrown appendage......Does this prove that God exists?
.....
What would you choose? I'm really curious what y'all really think.

As has been stated, all you have reaslly shown is that you have powers.  Maybe you got them from Yahweh, but maybe you got them from Loki who is laughing himself to pieces at all the sudden converts to the fake religion of Christianity.

Now....if you were to show that:
(a) you were appealing to Yahweh using ONLY those methods detailed in the Bible, and
(b) any other person using those same methods got the same results, and
(c) any person using very similar methods but subsituting the name of another god got NO result.....

...then I would indeed accept - at least provisionally - the existence of Yahweh.  Then, of course, we move on to the questions about his character, actions, morality, wothiness of worship.......and so on.

But one person doing miracles proves nothing more than "that person is able to do miracles".
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: mr logicfaith on September 14, 2012, 11:00:43 AM
great to hear from all y'all!

I've thought about this myself - and even if you died and ended up in heaven - as described in the bible -- could you prove that it wasn't just an illusion that wasn't going to immediately end with an eternally playing rickrolled video for everybody who "believed" in God?

I'm guessing you'd have a really hard time proving this for certain.
 On the other side of things, there's always the argument "well, how can absolutely prove that the reasons you don't believe in God aren't deceptions from satan?"

I don't think people can prove that God exists or not.
I don't think you could prove whether or not it's best to believe in God or not.

I think that given sufficient positive evidence supporting belief in God or against believing would really be all that folks can do.

So, I'm doing a little project: the open "letter to God," in which we address a letter to God, and detail exactly what we'd need as sufficient positive evidence supporting belief in him, and give this letter a creative short film treatment, or just a written form post so that we can give it to folks who think they're proselytizing is genius and that people who don't decide to believe in God are doing so out of sheer stupidity (and sin!).

check it out here!! (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23818)
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: dloubet on September 17, 2012, 03:31:14 AM
What is the one characteristic that God has that another all-powerful being would not have? The God is the being that is credited with creating the universe.

So what if we devised a scientific device that allowed us to peer into the past and watch the God create the universe? I would then have to say that for the same reason I agree that the Andromeda galaxy exists (directly viewed through a scientific instrument), I must now agree that God exists.

Would I study it? Yes, of course. Would I whorship it? Probably not.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: none on September 17, 2012, 03:41:50 AM
What is the one characteristic that God has that another all-powerful being would not have? The God is the being that is credited with creating the universe.

So what if we devised a scientific device that allowed us to peer into the past and watch the God create the universe? I would then have to say that for the same reason I agree that the Andromeda galaxy exists (directly viewed through a scientific instrument), I must now agree that God exists.

Would I study it? Yes, of course. Would I whorship it? Probably not.
do you worship naturally occurring events and objects or do you observe them?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 17, 2012, 04:29:03 AM
great to hear from all y'all!

I've thought about this myself - and even if you died and ended up in heaven - as described in the bible -- could you prove that it wasn't just an illusion that wasn't going to immediately end with an eternally playing rickrolled video for everybody who "believed" in God?

I'm guessing you'd have a really hard time proving this for certain.

I've never had any time for solipcism, because in the end it doesn't matter.  Whether this life is real, or whether it is a Matrix-induced state, the effects on me are the same.  If I do not eat, I experience hunger.  If I fall over, I experience pain.  With no way of telling which environment I am actually in, the way I react will be the same.

So the issue of "ultimately proving" is quite irrelevant for me.  As you say, "sufficient positice evidence" is quite enough.  I can't PROVE that fairies do not exist - but there is sufficient proof they do not to make it ridiculous for me to leave milk out every night for them "just in case".

I don't think you could prove whether or not it's best to believe in God or not.

In the sense of "afterlife rewards", I agree.  But you could certainly study effects on health, relationship success, happiness, and so forth, and compare results between believers of different stripe, and unbelievers.

That might be an important question - if, after much study, it was established that a certain type of belief were (on balance) overall better for the world than unbelief, would - should - we accept that rational position and offer our support to that faith?



<<Edit - fixed quoting>>
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: none on September 17, 2012, 04:33:32 AM
...
 On the other side of things, there's always the argument "well, how can absolutely prove that the reasons you don't believe in God aren't deceptions from satan?"
...
Discard the Bible and what is satan?



Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 17, 2012, 07:44:14 AM


 On the other side of things, there's always the argument "well, how can absolutely prove that the reasons you don't believe in God aren't deceptions from satan?"

Of course I just flip that, "What proof do you have that the whole Bible isn't a clever deception of an evil deity by the name of Yahweh, and Satan is really the good one?"





Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Lectus on September 17, 2012, 08:17:23 AM
Being an all powerful God would allow you to heal amputees, since you're the creator of everything.

Healing amputees doesn't automatically make you a God though.

If an advanced alien race had technology to regenerate amputees they wouldn't be gods, they would be just advanced technologically.

So, I still wouldn't believe, but I'd be amazed by their knowledge and I'd like to learn it.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 17, 2012, 09:06:19 AM
Whoops!  In my last message, I screwed up the quotes and left a bit of mr logicfaith's text outside the quotes, so it looked like I was saying it - and there's been a couple responses quoting me!  Last couple posts have been amended to make things clear.....!     ;D
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: mr logicfaith on September 20, 2012, 01:58:44 PM
On the other side of things, there's always the argument "well, how can absolutely prove that the reasons you don't believe in God aren't deceptions from satan?"
Of course I just flip that, "What proof do you have that the whole Bible isn't a clever deception of an evil deity by the name of Yahweh, and Satan is really the good one?"

heh... I once actually tried to figure this out.
I came up with

"well, if there was a glass of marbles, next to a glass tipped over, and marbles around it, you'd have more evidence proving the marbles came from the tipped glass."

- of course, if you knew somebody was probably trying to trick you, you could calculate the marble's paths and see if they could have come from the glass tipping over.

- if you couldn't prove they didn't fall out of the glass, and couldn't prove they did, you'd have two options:

1. believe that the glass tipped over and the marbles came out
2. believe that it's a conspiracy to make you think that the glass tipped over.
-- but really, you can't prove it --

Applying that to God / bible stuff...
(provided miracles are working 'n' stuff like that)
You'd basically have the same thing
1. believe that God is good and satan is evil
2. believe that satan is God or God is evil and the whole thing is a setup.

Since there's probable cause for satan to try to make you think the 2nd is true, the first is probably true.
You can't really prove it though.

I figure the best you could do is end up seeing exactly how everything works, and if believing / worshipping God is the best thing to do...
 (It'd be better than spending eternity in hell... however, I'm pretty sure if God was doing miracles and stuff, there'd be a way better reason than just avoiding hell =D )
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 20, 2012, 02:37:44 PM

Since there's probable cause for satan to try to make you think the 2nd is true, the first is probably true.
You can't really prove it though.


How is it more probable than Yahweh as evil deity trying to create a  propaganda document called 'Bible'?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: screwtape on September 20, 2012, 03:06:26 PM
Applying that to God / bible stuff...
(provided miracles are working 'n' stuff like that)
You'd basically have the same thing
1. believe that God is good and satan is evil
2. believe that satan is God or God is evil and the whole thing is a setup.

3. yhwh is a petulant and moody being and satan is simply one of his minions.[1] 
4. god is an insane but powerful being that has allowed bad things to happen when he could have arranged otherwise.
5. ...

There are a lot of possibilities because the bible does not present a consistent message or portrait of yhwh or god.

And the logic you apply regarding 1 vs 2, is also reversible.  If 2 is true, then god has every reason to make you think 1 is true.  So, you are no nearer an answer.
 1. Satan as most people think of him is not found in the bible.  He is a fiction invented in the 3rd and 4th centuries to get people to convert to and stay with xianity.  Satan is the boogieman who is found in every shadow and the only person who can protect you is jesus H...
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: jetson on October 07, 2012, 11:06:11 AM
If all of the world's amputees were healed overnight, and there were no ill-effects from those healings, I might consider believing.  People who have lived all of their lives with missing limbs are not likely to be completely happy upon suddenly having a limb, especially if they've never had one to begin with, or if they have completely adjusted their lives to living without a limb.  So, this miracle would need to include a complete therapy and memory adjustment in order to prevent issues like that.

Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 07, 2012, 09:21:58 PM
As long as belief is still required, I have no ability to get behind the concept. All the healed amputees in the world (a wonderful thing, and far more valuable than my frickin' opinion, by the way) would not convince me that there is a god if the dude still appears to be playing hide-and-seek.

Either there is a god or there is not. If there is, he knows what would convince me of his existence. He knows that this belief thing is a bunch of shit to some of us, and if he really cares, all he needs to do is change his criteria and his visibility a bit and whammo, I will know he exists. Note that I used the word "know". That is the only criterion I will accept. Knowing.

If he is going to continue to play the belief game, I will continue to not buy into it.

Gods that cannot allow for the genetic variation in humans that they presumably created are not worth my attention.

That he behaves exactly as a non-existent god may be coincidental. But I think not.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Nam on October 24, 2012, 12:37:43 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned (not reading all the comments) but if in that Universe everything you ask Biblegod to do wouldn't it already been done beforehand? And, would they then be called "miracles" if it was just the way things already were?

The whole thing seems flawed, to me.

-Nam
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Azdgari on October 24, 2012, 12:48:39 AM
To the OP:  Let's say I'm trying to find out if I can get my credit card limit raised.  I first check to see if I have a credit card in the first place.  If I don't, then I can't get it raised - the answer is definitely "no".  But if I do, then that only means that one barrier is removed from "can get a credit limit raised" being true.  It doesn't make it true.  More steps are needed to find that out.

This applies in the case of miraculous healings, as well.  Their absense means that gods of a couple of particular descriptions cannot exist.  But their presence wouldn't prove the existence of those gods, any more than finding out that I do indeed have a credit card doesn't prove that I can get a credit limit extension.  It just removes one barrier.  There are others.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
I thought I would address this amputee healing thing right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. Simple as that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...


Blessings
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: none on December 16, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
I thought I would address this amputee healing thing right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. Simple as that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...


Blessings
so god heals mental illness? like delusion?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: jetson on December 16, 2012, 03:48:23 PM
Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. Simple as that.

I wish it were that simple.  But you know as well as the rest of us here that this is pure bullshit, and just a very, very lame excuse for your god.  You're going to have to do much better than posting scripture, as that is really not evidence of anything other than words written down by ancient people.

BTW - there is a standard at this forum, so I suggest you read the rules if you haven't already.  You can't post scripture and call it a day, unless you're willing to say that it is all you have?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: kaziglu bey on December 16, 2012, 04:09:38 PM
Basically, what the OP boils down to is a drawn out admission that, in THIS universe, such things do not happen, even though the Bible clearly states that any believer should easily be able to accomplish this. In other words, thanks for admitting that there is no God. I really hope that you did not consider this to be a clever, fool proof argument for the existence of God. It's probably among the silliest I have ever heard. "If the Universe did exactly what I wanted to, including amputees being miraculously healed, THEN you would HAVE to believe in God in that universe, therefore you have to believe in God in this universe too!"  Please. Don't waste our time with this tripe. Find a college, take some critical thinking and logic classes, and get back to us.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: none on December 16, 2012, 04:13:07 PM
...
 Find a college, take some critical thinking and logic classes, and get back to us.
I haven't given up on the hope of elementary schools teaching the basics....
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: naemhni on December 16, 2012, 04:16:53 PM
I thought I would address this amputee healing thing right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.

Why is this a problem?  Why is it so important to believe things without having firm evidence for them?

Also, you do realize, don't you, that the bible has many, many instances where Yahweh appeared directly to various people, meaning they didn't need faith, either.  Thomas even asked for proof, and Jesus gave it to him.  If them, why not us?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 04:23:08 PM
^ Hey! A good question & a nice post! How rare... Props to pianodwarf!

Imho, one needs to be able to do both. He needs to be able to both believe when there is no evidence & believe when there is evidence.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: naemhni on December 16, 2012, 04:37:33 PM
^ Hey! A good question & a nice post! How rare... Props to pianodwarf!

Thank you.  :-)

Quote
Imho, one needs to be able to do both. He needs to be able to both believe when there is no evidence & believe when there is evidence.

OK, but again... why?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 04:42:28 PM
^ Hey! A good question & a nice post! How rare... Props to pianodwarf!

Thank you.  :-)

Quote
Imho, one needs to be able to do both. He needs to be able to both believe when there is no evidence & believe when there is evidence.

OK, but again... why?
LOL. Don't know... :P
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 16, 2012, 04:46:34 PM
Applying that to God / bible stuff...
(provided miracles are working 'n' stuff like that)
You'd basically have the same thing
1. believe that God is good and satan is evil
2. believe that satan is God or God is evil and the whole thing is a setup.

3. yhwh is a petulant and moody being and satan is simply one of his minions.[1] 
4. god is an insane but powerful being that has allowed bad things to happen when he could have arranged otherwise.
5. ...

There are a lot of possibilities because the bible does not present a consistent message or portrait of yhwh or god.

And the logic you apply regarding 1 vs 2, is also reversible.  If 2 is true, then god has every reason to make you think 1 is true.  So, you are no nearer an answer.
 1. Satan as most people think of him is not found in the bible.  He is a fiction invented in the 3rd and 4th centuries to get people to convert to and stay with xianity.  Satan is the boogieman who is found in every shadow and the only person who can protect you is jesus H...
This would explain why Satan tried a rebellion against this evil dictator
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: median on December 19, 2012, 04:24:14 AM
I'm going to take a little bit different of an approach here (although I did not read ALL the posts). I'm going to say that I do not buy the hypothetical scenario you have setup.  It isn't detailed enough for me to be able to even begin making a rational judgment about what I might say, do, or believe in order to change my mind about Yahweh. I agree with quite a few other posters here on at least two points though. 1) Just by you performing extraordinary things it seems there would be little or no method for me to be able to determine if this was your Yahweh Elohim doing the miracles. So how could I know your miraculous works were from your particular deity? 2) Even if I somehow could know it was Yahweh doing these "miracles" (and I don't think that would be likely given your description), I would be pissed! This deity would have a lot of explaining to do, and even then I might want to kill this being (for the atrocities/hypocrisies of the OT - 1 Samuel 15, Judges 11, Hosea 13, Psalm 137, Exodus 21/31, Leviticus 20, Deuteronomy 21/22, etc).

So in my mind, your performance of miracles (provided that we could even call them that) would not make up for all of the disgusting, vile, and monstrous acts committed, sanctioned, commanded, or endorsed by your Yahweh. For some reason this God decides to sit back and watch, and do nothing for thousands of years of human history, while literally millions of infant children (under age 5) suffer and die (let alone everyone else's suffering)?? Why would this God be worthy of my worship?

Now I suppose it might be more plausible to say that I might be slightly more inclined to believe in a different deity than this Yahweh, but I would not apply any lesser standards of evidence regardless. This deity would need to explain itself just the same. I do not buy into the cosmic dictator argument (because dictators are not "all loving"). So this being would really just have to SHOW UP (in a fashion that I, and others around, can understand) - which would of course eliminate the need for "faith". Otherwise, I would not believe in either IT, or Yahweh.

As far as I'm concerned, most of our own fathers here outrank the biblical Yahweh deity in just about every aspect of decency and "goodness". In that way, they are far more worthy of worship (if there ever was such a worthy thing).

Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 04:38:47 AM
I'm going to take a little bit different of an approach here (although I did not read ALL the posts). I'm going to say that I do not buy the hypothetical scenario you have setup.  It isn't detailed enough for me to be able to even begin making a rational judgment about what I might say, do, or believe in order to change my mind about Yahweh. I agree with quite a few other posters here on at least two points though. 1) Just by you performing extraordinary things it seems there would be little or no method for me to be able to determine if this was your Yahweh Elohim doing the miracles. So how could I know your miraculous works were from your particular deity? 2) Even if I somehow could know it was Yahweh doing these "miracles" (and I don't think that would be likely given your description), I would be pissed! This deity would have a lot of explaining to do, and even then I might want to kill this being (for the atrocities/hypocrisies of the OT - 1 Samuel 15, Judges 11, Hosea 13, Psalm 137, Exodus 21/31, Leviticus 20, Deuteronomy 21/22, etc).

So in my mind, your performance of miracles (provided that we could even call them that) would not make up for all of the disgusting, vile, and monstrous acts committed, sanctioned, commanded, or endorsed by your Yahweh. For some reason this God decides to sit back and watch, and do nothing for thousands of years of human history, while literally millions of infant children (under age 5) suffer and die (let alone everyone else's suffering)?? Why would this God be worthy of my worship?

Now I suppose it might be more plausible to say that I might be slightly more inclined to believe in a different deity than this Yahweh, but I would not apply any lesser standards of evidence regardless. This deity would need to explain itself just the same. I do not buy into the cosmic dictator argument (because dictators are not "all loving"). So this being would really just have to SHOW UP (in a fashion that I, and others around, can understand) - which would of course eliminate the need for "faith". Otherwise, I would not believe in either IT, or Yahweh.

As far as I'm concerned, most of our own fathers here outrank the biblical Yahweh deity in just about every aspect of decency and "goodness". In that way, they are far more worthy of worship (if there ever was such a worthy thing).
what do you mean "might kill" if you had sensory input of an entity that was responsible for the activity of killing every living human being that has ever died?
do you think that entity is not going to kill you?
we as a species better get our shit together.
lets say that entity becomes human because it can, then what?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: median on December 19, 2012, 12:18:46 PM
what do you mean "might kill" if you had sensory input of an entity that was responsible for the activity of killing every living human being that has ever died?
do you think that entity is not going to kill you?
we as a species better get our shit together.
lets say that entity becomes human because it can, then what?

I would WANT to kill such a being, but it doesn't mean I would be able to.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Bagheera on December 19, 2012, 01:05:01 PM
If I can't compare hypothetical universe 100047 to this one, I have no basis on which to judge whether or not the things you can do in that universe are demonstrably 'miraculous evidence of (bible)God' or 'things mr logicfaith can do specifically in that universe alone because it's HIS private universe'.  The only way to know is by testing the rules of that universe, and determining that it is internally consistent.

Perhaps universe 10047 has a structure that specifically allows entities named mr logicfaith to do X things. Either way, the inhabitants of Earth 100047  will worship mr logicfaith 100047. (Although you say mr logicfaith 100047 is doing these miracles in God's name, creating worlds in dayus is specifically attributed to God and only God). Whatever is said, given a choice between a faceless, absent deity and one who is actively doing what they'd see as irrefutably  creating worlds in days and bringing their loved ones back from the dead (unless he's just reserving that trick for famous Americans), they'll nod their heads and say praise God but they'll come to mr logicfaith for their needs.

So basically what you're saying is, "in universe 100047, God exists. Do you believe?" And the honest answer is, Bagheera 100047, with sufficient direct empirical evidence, would believe that god exists. That a creature with the power to duplicate miracles by our standards exists, but not necessarily with the power to create the universe, or that the afterlife is real, nor that he should be worshipped.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Nam on December 19, 2012, 01:23:37 PM
I think my initial post on the first page states something plainly there concerning the hypothetical: if it's already known to happen, how could 1. It be called a "miracle" since it seemingly is already a part of one's life and evident common knowledge. And 2. This conversation wouldn't be taking place because "atheists" wouldn't exist in the hypothetical (though adversaries may[1]) and then the hypothetical, in of itself becomes moot.

That world doesn't exist. We don't live in a What If world.

-Nam
 1. little satans
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: median on December 20, 2012, 01:59:35 PM
mr logicfaith,

Are you trying to argue that it wouldn't matter whether or not God started healing amputees (i.e. - b/c we still wouldn't believe anyways)? I don't think that's entirely true b/c it would be very intriguing, eye catching, and something of great interest to those of us that currently reject Yahweh as a fake god - just as we reject all the rest of the man-made gods throughout history. However, at the risk of speaking out of turn here, I'm going to say that I don't think the question of WWGHA Forum is a non-rhetorical one. In other words, as it seems to me, the question is one that ought to demonstrate (to you believers) that your supposed/assumed deity Yahweh is not really what you think he/she/it is. That is to say, this deity (according to the alleged words of Jesus) WILL supposedly do anything for his followers if you ask in his name (John 14). Yet, the fact that these words DO NOT at all ring true in our practical lives (i.e. - the 'gospels' and book of ACTS...here and now) shows, quite clearly, that this deity is either 1) not real, or 2) is a liar and simply doesn't care about his creation (take the sheer number of infant moralities for example). Neither of these two possibilities warrants any of us to worship said idea-thing, does it? The better approach, and the one which an overwhelming majority of us practice daily to get through this life, is to withhold judgment until further evidence comes in.

The question I have for you is this. Why do you believe in this 'Yahweh' god when you don't have any consistent (specific/non-vague) demonstrable evidence for it's existence?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: dloubet on December 21, 2012, 02:48:36 AM
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.

This suggests that the god character does not want people to come to it through knowledge, but prefers faith. If that's the case, why are you trying to convince us of the god's existence through what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument? Why are you trying to lead us inescapably to the knowledge that a god exists? Why are you trying to make us precisely the kind of believer you claim the god does NOT want? Why are you working at cross-purposes to your god?

Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 09:05:13 AM
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.

This suggests that the god character does not want people to come to it through knowledge, but prefers faith. If that's the case, why are you trying to convince us of the god's existence through what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument? Why are you trying to lead us inescapably to the knowledge that a god exists? Why are you trying to make us precisely the kind of believer you claim the god does NOT want? Why are you working at cross-purposes to your god?
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Add Homonym on December 21, 2012, 09:45:40 AM
Only partial blind faith exists.

That's like the "profound absence of the many millions of transitional fossils"

Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: median on December 21, 2012, 12:49:27 PM
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.
Only partial blind faith exists.

Faith implies knowledge? How so? From where did you get this idea? Dr. Greg Bahnsen?

Faith does not imply knowledge. Faith implies faith. Having no knowledge of something (i.e. a deity named Yahweh) does not at all prevent you front having "faith" (believing in the absence of demonstrable evidence). Kids don't need knowledge of Santa Claus to believe without evidence.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMyAexMTKM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMyAexMTKM)
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 21, 2012, 12:58:20 PM
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.



So you're partially blind and acting as your own seeing eye dog and you're wondering why we don't want to join you. Weird.

Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: dloubet on December 25, 2012, 07:09:14 PM
SHIN KAIRI wrote:

Quote
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.

This does not address my point that if you convince us of the existence of god through evidence, we will not have faith, and that that is not the kind of believer you claim the god wants. You are attempting to create the kind of believers that are not desired by your god. Why are you doing that?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: screwtape on December 28, 2012, 09:03:38 AM
Only partial blind faith exists.

what would that be called, myopic faith?  astigmatic faith?

silly.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Graybeard on December 28, 2012, 09:47:43 AM
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.
I almost agree with you. If there is something out there of which you are totally unaware, there can be no knowledge or faith. You must have an idea in the first place so as to apply knowledge and/or faith.

The trouble is that there are two things in religion "a god" and "a concept of a god".

You and I both have a "concept of a god"; we have ideas as to what those words mean. Both you and I place, Yahweh, Christ, Zeus, Thor, etc in the category of "gods of whom we have a concept."

However, we must not confuse 'God Himself' with 'the concept of a god' - I know God Himself does not exist but the concept of God does exist. OTOH, you know he does exist and know the concept of gods exists.

So your, " If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith." should be "If there is absolutely no concept, there than can be no faith..." and the rest flows.

e.g. I can conceive of Australia and God but, as I know there is an Australia and do not know there is a God, I can only have real knowledge of Australia and only a concept of God.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: median on December 29, 2012, 01:38:21 PM
When the light turns on, the roaches run...
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 29, 2012, 01:47:17 PM
Only partial blind faith exists.

what would that be called, myopic faith?  astigmatic faith?

silly.


Or, you can just wear really dark rose colored glasses.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Leviathan on January 04, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
Does it really matter? If you went around healing people, how could you prove it to be god and not witch craft? or the devil?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 04, 2013, 03:20:41 PM
Does it really matter? If you went around healing people, how could you prove it to be god and not witch craft? or the devil?
Similarly, what is the proof that the Bible isn't a someone muddled propaganda book for an evil Deity named Yahweh?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: God Exists 11:11 on August 02, 2014, 08:52:05 AM
I've heard all the "I'm open minded / logical / and still no miracles happen" stuff, and I'm really curious how things would go down if y'all actually started to see "miracles."

enter hypothetical universe 100047:
(in this universe, what I say below happens, any arguments comparing it to our universe are invalid. kthx.)

This universe is exactly the same as this one - but some surprising stuff happens:

Let's say I found a way to ask God for healing for amputees in a way that he answers.
So, I'm able to heal amputees by asking God / Jesus to heal them - and their limbs regrow in about a minute -- causing them to gain weight and mass proportionate to the newly regrown appendage.

So, I go around healing everybody who's missing limbs. It's scientifically proven, tested, to the satisfaction of everyone. Limbs are regrowing in accordance with what's written in the bible.

Then to make things clear, I go around repeating every miracle in the bible - 'cept the once where ppl got killed, cuz I'm not into killing. They're proven. Mountains move, I walk on water and stop storms and turn the sun to darkness, raise George Washington from the dead, spawn entire planets from  nothing and populate them in days, predict a 100 digit random number 100s of times in a row, etc...


Does this prove that God exists?

1. You could say "aliens with super technology altering quantum states magically make this happen in accordance with the bible to make it seem like the bible is true."
(This would be curious. How can you prove God isn't an multi-dimentional alien overlord?)


2. You could say "People have always possessed this power, and you've simply unlocked it using codes written into the bible - it's not true, religious documents are just the most popular way to transfer extremely powerful information."

Well, if evolution is the case, you're admitting that you believe that somehow beings evolve to higher levels of consciousness can alter the universe tele-kinetically.
(in this case, we could design a biological super computer that could make entire real planets or spawn people.)


3. Say that we're all just part of a supercomputer simulation, and this stuff is just part of the game... and winners who can believe in the bible get super powers.
(once again, this doesn't prove that "God" doesn't exist)


4: Believe the bible and God is real, and satan has been working his hardest to keep people from finding the truth... and inventing all sorts of ways around people actually believing in God.
(in this case, you'd have to sift out all the lies you've been believing and find the truth like I did)


What would you choose? I'm really curious what y'all really think.

It has already happened.

http://www.supernaturaltruth.com/creative-miracles-can-god-heal-a-severed-limb/

http://www.examiner.com/article/evidence-that-god-can-regrow-amputated-limbs-when-he-feels-like-it

http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/06/18/surprise-god-have-healed-amputees/

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html

And I'm not really sure if this counts but it does say in the Bible that Jesus healed a mans cut off ear. That should be used as some evidence, it's almost the same thing as an arm. So that is proof within the Bible that he did and still does heal cut off parts.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: G-Roll on August 02, 2014, 09:48:09 AM
Um.. did you read these links?

Examiner link
"A Dictionary of Miracles by the Reverend Ebenezar Cobham Brewer (a 1901 compendium of everything fantastical in Christian dogma), provides me with the same kind of entertainment as Bullfinch's Mythology does. Both have stories about jaw-droppingly wild happenings that occur when gods intervene in the world of humankind. The only difference is that a story like Leda and the Swan, where the god Zeus takes the form of a swan to seduce and impregnate the maiden Leda, is regarded as a charming fairytale because no one (or almost no one) believes in the Greek gods anymore... but a similar story where Jehovah, in the form of a Holy Ghost, impregnates the Virgin Mary, is believed without question by millions.

I find this credulity fascinating because of the kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through to believe what common sense and experience should tell them is unbelievable. I also find it alarming because, as the philosopher Voltaire (1694 - 1778) said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

But thanks for the atheist argument mixed with the crazy Eliseo F. Soriano link. It is refreshing to see xians read articles critical to their faith.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: God Exists 11:11 on August 02, 2014, 09:50:36 AM
Um.. did you read these links?

Examiner link
"A Dictionary of Miracles by the Reverend Ebenezar Cobham Brewer (a 1901 compendium of everything fantastical in Christian dogma), provides me with the same kind of entertainment as Bullfinch's Mythology does. Both have stories about jaw-droppingly wild happenings that occur when gods intervene in the world of humankind. The only difference is that a story like Leda and the Swan, where the god Zeus takes the form of a swan to seduce and impregnate the maiden Leda, is regarded as a charming fairytale because no one (or almost no one) believes in the Greek gods anymore... but a similar story where Jehovah, in the form of a Holy Ghost, impregnates the Virgin Mary, is believed without question by millions.

I find this credulity fascinating because of the kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through to believe what common sense and experience should tell them is unbelievable. I also find it alarming because, as the philosopher Voltaire (1694 - 1778) said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

But thanks for the atheist argument mixed with the crazy Eliseo F. Soriano link. It is refreshing to see xians read articles critical to their faith.

Okay if you don't like those links. I can give you more.

And you didn't say anything about Jesus healing someones cut off ear. How is that any different than an arm or a leg?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: jaimehlers on August 02, 2014, 09:53:55 AM
Don't necro topics like this.

The first link is anecdotal and not particularly believable, especially since it's the equivalent of an op-ed.  He talks about how someone "instantaneously" regrew a small piece of his eye after the writer and his prayer circle prayed to God, and then lists a whole lot of anecdotal stories about how people make rather outrageously ridiculous claims about regrowing limbs, such as someone who had no legs, went to buy shoes, and "instantaneously" grew legs, or the person who, if the writer remembers correctly, slowly regrew the missing portion of his right leg over several weeks time.  All he has to report is hearsay 'testimony' that he hasn't personally witnessed, and that makes his own testimony suspect.

EDIT: The second link has nothing to do with proving miracles, but instead is all about showing just how unbelievable they are.  I apparently mistook satire for actual behavior, which happens every so often.  It brings up the supposed Biblical healings of amputees, and other anecdotal stories about healings, which are hardly believable in and of themselves.  Imagine if, in two thousand years, we had people believe that we used to play a game called Quiddich, where people fly around on broomsticks and try to fling balls into goals, because it was written about in the Harry Potter books.  And then, used fanfiction about Harry Potter as support.  That's why bringing up Biblical stories doesn't work.

The third link is a blog entry from a religious pastor which acts as if God is the only one who does any healing, otherwise everyone with the same disease, treated in the same way, would heal the same way.  Newsflash - people are not all the same, so why would anyone expect that they would heal the same way?  But no.  This guy draws the conclusion that healing - all healing - comes from God.  And furthermore, tapdances around the issue of healing amputees by claiming that it's the amputation that heals them, and that God makes sure they recover afterward.  *shakes head*

The final link is just as bad as the others.  First, it attempts to shift the burden of proof, claiming that we can't assume God has never healed amputees.  However, this is irrelevant.  Until we have empirical evidence showing that human limbs can regenerate, it is not even slightly reasonable to conclude that it might happen and we just aren't aware of it.  That's how skepticism works - until someone shows evidence that something actually happens, there is no reason to believe claims they make that it does.  Second, it attempts to spin a line about how it isn't God's fault that everyone isn't healed, because we live in a fallen world.  But that's attempting to shift the blame.  If I make something, and it's messed up, and I'm a good person who cares about my creation, then I would feel obligated to work to fix the problems with what I created.  Yet God doesn't do this; instead, he plays hide-and-seek, except with those who already believe in him, which is totally backwards anyway, and lets people suffer nonstop.

The rest of it is the same; attempts to spin things to act like God doesn't have to be responsible or do anything he doesn't want to, and to create excuses why things no longer happen the way they did.

So, "God Exists 11:11", do you have anything more believable than this?  Like, say, a medical report of an amputee regenerating a limb?  Or did you necro this post in vain?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: G-Roll on August 02, 2014, 09:57:14 AM
I don’t have to explain Jesus saving ears or legs. THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED CLAIMS ITS FICTION.
I LOVE that link. No need to find new ones. I don’t even have to explain anything to you. All you have to do is actually read the link you provided for your argument. It's actually a pretty strong argument from an atheist with a mind that is more open than mine to this kind of silliness.

Lol don’t come at us with this weak sauce. 
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: God Exists 11:11 on August 02, 2014, 10:35:26 AM
I don’t have to explain Jesus saving ears or legs. THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED CLAIMS ITS FICTION.
I LOVE that link. No need to find new ones. I don’t even have to explain anything to you. All you have to do is actually read the link you provided for your argument. It's actually a pretty strong argument from an atheist with a mind that is more open than mine to this kind of silliness.

Lol don’t come at us with this weak sauce.

Why are you in this topic if you do't believe in God anyways? The topic is, "Why does God not heal amputees?" I gave you reasons. And your dodging the whole Jesus thing and going back to the links. Where does it say that it claims its fiction? Are you making stuff up again like you did with those versus? Your argument is what's weak and quite confusing at that.

You also didn't answer my question as to why you were using Bible versus when you don't even believe in it. So you admit to me that you're a hypocrite? And I'm pretty sure there was some other questions unanswered as well...that's what makes a "debate" weak.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: G-Roll on August 02, 2014, 01:04:53 PM
Why are you in this topic if you do't believe in God anyways? The topic is, "Why does God not heal amputees?"
I pop up all over the place! They can't contain me, I just bust loose! For future reference if I am not supposed to post in one of your threads please title it with "No G-Rolls allowed" so I will know better. Otherwise I will continue to assume I can post wherever I want so long as I follow the forum rules.
And if I may point out the topic is "Why Does god Not Heal Amputees?" So why are you in this topic if you believe in god? Also the forum is atheist. So... what brings you here? By your logic?

 
Quote
And your dodging the whole Jesus thing and going back to the links.
Why did you post the links? Are they evidence to your claims? Well, one of them said quite the opposite of what you were claiming.
Per your article that was written by an atheist;

"I find this credulity fascinating because of the kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through to believe what common sense and experience should tell them is unbelievable. I also find it alarming because, as the philosopher Voltaire (1694 - 1778) said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

I much like the author of the article do not believe Jesus regrew a person's ear. The author of your article explained that for me. As it was compared to Zeus seducing Leda in the guise of a swan.

Quote
Are you making stuff up again like you did with those versus?
And now I know that you know nothing of the Old Test. That is another topic so I won't dwell on it here, but I do look forward to reading your.. what did your article call it? Oh yeah "Mental Gymnastics" as you try and explain how ripping apart 42 small children is acceptable behavior.

 
Quote
You also didn't answer my question as to why you were using Bible versus when you don't even believe in it.
Sure I did. As I said before I use your book because you believe in it. So I point out things like the 42 kids vs the 2 she bears because I believe it will be more useful than any real world actual fact when discussing topics with delusional people.

Is this conversation going to go beyond me being a hypocrite for posting in a public forum or questioning how much of my time I spend here?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: jaimehlers on August 02, 2014, 02:05:04 PM
You've had plenty of time to write a response to me, "God Exists 11:11".  Your failure to do so suggests you are not interested in actually discussing this topic but only in trying to pick low-hanging fruit.  Therefore, I am reporting you for post necromancy.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: Graybeard on August 02, 2014, 03:27:00 PM
Okay if you don't like those links. I can give you more.
Please... It is not a question of "liking them", it is a question of their being at a level that would convince a 7 year old.
Quote
And you didn't say anything about Jesus healing someone's cut off ear. How is that any different than an arm or a leg?
I take it that (a) you have never read a bible (b) you are under 12 years old. Please re-read the verse,
51  But Jesus answered, "Let me at least do this" —and he touched his ear, and healed him. 

It does not say, "51 And there and then a new ear grew instantly in the place of the one on the floor, and the crowd marvelled and touched the new ear. 52 And many took pictures with their iPhones and Roman doctors were present who certified that the ear was indeed new and they saw the old ear. 53 See page 2342 for peer reviewed papers on this matter."

Additionally, the exterior ear has no bones and few nerves. Which is somewhat unlike a leg or arm.

I see you are new here. We are not unfriendly, but we do like people who can think. We like people who can think critically. If you are like those who just parrot what their pastor/priest/vicar/shaman/muezzin has said, be prepared for a hard time.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: jetson on August 02, 2014, 04:08:09 PM
God Exists 11:11 and UDumb have been banned for violating forum rules, including creating sock accounts.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: G-Roll on August 02, 2014, 04:21:40 PM
You've had plenty of time to write a response to me, "God Exists 11:11".  Your failure to do so suggests you are not interested in actually discussing this topic but only in trying to pick low-hanging fruit.  Therefore, I am reporting you for post necromancy.

Lol did you just call me low hanging fruit?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: One Above All on August 02, 2014, 04:25:29 PM
You've had plenty of time to write a response to me, "God Exists 11:11".  Your failure to do so suggests you are not interested in actually discussing this topic but only in trying to pick low-hanging fruit.  Therefore, I am reporting you for post necromancy.

Lol did you just call me low hanging fruit?

Well, jaimehlers did say "trying to". Who's to say they succeeded?
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: G-Roll on August 02, 2014, 04:28:50 PM
Meh, I suppose I have been called worse.

I still hang low, which in some respects isn't a bad thing!  ;D
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: One Above All on August 02, 2014, 04:31:35 PM
I still hang low, which in some respects isn't a bad thing!  ;D

Short legs? Pretty sure women (and men) prefer tall guys, like me. &)
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: G-Roll on August 02, 2014, 04:35:23 PM
LMAO!!

Drats foiled again...
Title: Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
Post by: atheola on August 02, 2014, 05:48:50 PM
If I ever regrow my low hanging fruit foreskin I'll run immediately to the nearest synagogue and kill the first rabbi who comes near me..