whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: Lectus on September 07, 2012, 10:32:58 AM

Title: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Lectus on September 07, 2012, 10:32:58 AM
Well, here's my opinion of it:

Faith healing can sometimes work.

Wait. Did I just say that? Did I become delusional? No. I'll explain.

It can work through the power of the mind. Not some mysterious supernatural deity.

If the person believes strong enough that he's healed, then he is. Or at least he believes he's healed, which has the same effect of shifting his reality.

It's also how placebo can sometimes heal people. (But it still sucks compared to real medicine when compared side by side)

Another example of the mind in action is when patients quit smoking with hypnotherapy.

A person who stops smoking after prayer is no different than that. Prayer is basically autosuggestion.

This also explains why God doesn't heal amputees. Because being amputee is a PHYSICAL condition, not a PSYCHOLOGICAL one. The mind just won't grow another arm or leg. Never going to happen.

So, praying to a tree has the same effect if you really believe it.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 07, 2012, 10:38:46 AM
I don't think that's quite how it works.

A person can mentally overcome some effects of injuries or sickness through discipline and belief.  They can even promote natural healing that would have happened anyway.  But no amount of belief will make a wound just go away, or make pain just go away.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Lectus on September 07, 2012, 11:07:39 AM
There are several cases of faith healing:

CASE 1:

The person prays and use medicine side by side. Medicine heals him. So he says God healed him. The poor doctor with years of study has no credit.

CASE 2:

The person prays and the disease goes away by itself. The person says it was God.
Our bodies will heal some diseases with our immune system if given enough rest, food and time.

CASE 3:

The person's disease was psychological. By using prayer he shifts how his mind sees the world and thus the mental condition is gone. He praises God.

CASE 4:

Hypnotherapy has being proven by science that it can alleviate pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22917107
Prayer works in similar way. No supernatural phenomena though. Just the mind working.

CASE 5:

The preacher creates illusion of miracles by hiring actors.

CASE 6:

The person pretends to have a disease just to enjoy the status of going to the altar to praise God.
Being special to God is a nice ego boost.

* God wasn't involved in any of these cases.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on September 07, 2012, 11:33:08 AM
Preacher uses trickery to give the person the illusion of healing.

Like the many people evidently limping around all their lives with legs of different lengths, undiagnosed by any doctor and unnoticed by parents and friends. But instantly diagnosed by this preacher-- do you have back pain? Of course, you do, because your legs are different lengths! I prescribe a built up shoe. No, I changed my mind, let me stretch the shorter leg out. Hallelujah, Jesus has healed your leg!

You will never have back pain again. Until you do. Because of evolution, everyone has back pain and nobody has different length legs that they never noticed, and nobody can magically stretch out a messed up leg and we never get doctors or x-rays to verify anything, because Jesus doesn't work that way....uh oh, did I say that out loud?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDOblGWkx8A

This horrible guy gives dreadlocks a bad name. And he uses his daughter in his scam! "Jesus is amazing, he loves you so much, man..." that's why he made your swollen knee better. Swollen knees-- god gets right on it, top of his list. But parents praying frantically over their babies dying of starvation in Darfur, not so much. &)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Garja on September 07, 2012, 12:11:28 PM
Just an aside. Having legs slightly different lengths is a motherf$&@er
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: BornAgainAtheist on September 07, 2012, 04:55:24 PM
And then there's Todd Bentley...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1PfkZqa_R0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1PfkZqa_R0)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Garja on September 07, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
What the FUCK did I just watch?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Lectus on September 09, 2012, 07:50:08 AM
LOL

BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

I wonder how people can believe in this crap.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: bgb on September 09, 2012, 02:14:47 PM
Its a sad testament to the delusions created in a mind.  Todd should be hung on a cross and see what happens. BAM!
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on September 10, 2012, 02:11:16 PM
That Todd Bentley stuff is so typical. We have seen so many of these "healers" obviously manipulating people psychologically using emotion and even what looks like sexual excitement.

Take a big group of repressed, frustrated young people who have been told that sex is bad and not even to masturbate. Get them all revved up with music and emotional appeals, just like at a rock concert. And then let the endorphins take over. 

The preacher is grabbing and holding the young people against him, everyone is shaking, crying, screaming, fainting. What black church  people call "falling out". Is that the holy spirit or emotional/sexual release?
And then he is actually yelling, "Do it, Jesus!" The big perv. &)

Don't these people realize that you feel uplifted and elated after any kind of experience like this, a fun dance party, a good action movie, a really fantastic concert, a trip to a wonderful restaurant, playing sports, having sex, using drugs? That is why young people do this stuff!

Look at 1960's footage of early fans of the Beatles and see the same thing going on. Girls hysterical, crying, fainting from the excitement and being carried off by police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLvTq6FdOj4

Imagine if the Beatles had told sick girls that they could heal illness in the name of Jesus with one kiss. I'll bet there would have been a raft of miraculous "Beatle healings"-- and the religious types would not have been burning their records.  They might have started a new cult and made more money that way...

How come ordinary Christians can't heal people like this? Remove the emotional arousal and excitement of being in the presence of a celebrity like Todd Bentley, would there be any "healing"? Where is the medical pre-exam and follow-up? If the healing is real, wouldn't they want to be able to present that evidence of god's power?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Lectus on September 10, 2012, 03:08:13 PM
Where is the medical pre-exam and follow-up? If the healing is real, wouldn't they want to be able to present that evidence of god's power?

There are churches that show the pre-exam and follow-up.

But I bet the crowd themselves fabricate/fake the exams so they can show it up there in the altar.

That's how deluded they are. They WANT to keep the cult alive to validate their beliefs.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Garja on September 10, 2012, 04:08:09 PM
^ That's something I have found disturbing about this topic and parallel subjects of faith.  The fact that clergy and parishioners alike seem willing to... alter facts to their liking does not seem discernibly different from lying.  Does anyone know if the Bible, or other christian sources endorse being dishonest about their god to make him seem better?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Big V on October 26, 2012, 08:47:11 PM
Healing is built into out bodies by God so, how it is activated isn't really the issue.

The question, I think is funny is this, why ask God to heal when Jesus told believers to heal?

Mat_10:8  Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

As a matter of fact, for those of you like research, you can't find a SINGLE instance in the New Testament (I know you don't read it, but you can Google it) where ANY New Testament believers are directed to ASK GOD to heal anyone.  gasp. shock. 

The central question of this website comes from a fallacy, that most Christians, unfortunately, believe and agnostics / atheists seize upon, God does NOT initiate healing, WE DO.  I could get into the silliness of Calvinism, but much of what I read here is your opposition to Calvinism, not any actual true Christian doctrine.

Jesus was the SON OF MAN, so he was a man (If you care to acknowledge his existence).  But as a man, he NEVER prayed and ask GOD to heal anyone HE (Jesus) healed them as a man knowing how to use the power he was given. 

And, to lay this to rest, he did heal the maimed (missing body parts, amputees, or whatever you want to call them)

Mat_15:30  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

I can expound much further on this, if you like, but the concept of asking God to heal isn't scriptural, nor is it Christian, WE are to heal.

If you are following my logic, I would be glad to explain healing, faith healing, etc, but I find this supposedly impossible question a lesson in ignorance.  Why? It isn't scriptural nor Christian, to pray and ASK God to heal, you can't find any examples of it in the New Testament.  Healing lies on shoulders of the believer, not God.

Case in point, when Jesus walked this earth, on over dozen occasions HE HEALED THEM ALL, not God.  I am not arguing against his deity, but for a very specific reason, Jesus (God) came as a MAN using the power of God inherent in men

So, to sum up my points.

Atheist: Well, let's pray and ask God to heal this amputee
Christian: Why don't we heal him, that's what Jesus told us to do, not just pray for him.
Atheist:  You don't want to pray for God to heal this amputee?
Christian: No, there is need to pray for God to heal, let's use the power God put in us to heal this amputee
Atheist: blah, blah, blah
Christian: Yada,Yada, Yada, Yada

I don't know, I thought the above discourse sounded funny in my head, but you get the point.

Once again, the mechanics of HOW to get him (the amputee) healed via the supernatural power of God that rests in us is up for debate, but you truly misunderstand why GOD became a man in the first place.  You simply don't understand Christianity at the core.

If God had permission to do everything he wanted to do in the first place, why go through the trouble of becoming a man? You simply don't know God, nor do you know who is really in charge of this earth.

Psa 115:16  The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on October 26, 2012, 09:40:31 PM
That used up a lot of bandwidth, but there still aren't any Iraq war vets or Afghani children growing back the arms and legs that got blown off, are there? No healing of Down's syndrome or dementia or spinal cord paralysis or any other unambiguous conditions either. But people still manage to supposedly heal pneumonia and skin rashes-- you know, things that sometimes get better anyway?

Seems like your god is a shifty shyster lawyer, going, "See? You didn't ask the right way. You don't know how to use the power, do you? And I'm not going to help you, either. Ha ha ha."

Cue Mr. Diety bit. &)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Nam on October 26, 2012, 10:20:45 PM
Big V,

How about: Ask and you shall receive.?

Matthew: 7:7 and 21:22
Luke 11:9

Oh noes, I think I have read the bibles. What does this mean?!?!

I do not think "we" are ignorant as you make us out to be. Some of us are former Christians. I, myself, am a former Southern Baptist.

-Nam
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: 3sigma on October 26, 2012, 10:55:35 PM
As a matter of fact, for those of you like research, you can't find a SINGLE instance in the New Testament (I know you don't read it, but you can Google it) where ANY New Testament believers are directed to ASK GOD to heal anyone.  gasp. shock.

It isn't scriptural nor Christian, to pray and ASK God to heal, you can't find any examples of it in the New Testament.  Healing lies on shoulders of the believer, not God.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Note that it says all things. There is no specific restriction on praying for limbs to regrow so if a believing Christian prays for an amputee’s limb to regrow, it will happen—according to this scripture. Though, as we know, it hasn’t ever happened no matter how many people have prayed for amputees’ limbs to regrow.

Quote
So, to sum up my points.

Atheist: Well, let's pray and ask God to heal this amputee
Christian: Why don't we heal him, that's what Jesus told us to do, not just pray for him.
Atheist:  You don't want to pray for God to heal this amputee?

I don't know, I thought the above discourse sounded funny in my head, but you get the point.

It sounds strange because that isn’t what an atheist would say. After the Christian evades the request to demonstrate that prayer will heal amputees, an atheist like me would ask: “Are you admitting that prayer doesn’t work?” Well, are you?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 26, 2012, 11:19:34 PM
BigV

It isn't too surprising to hear that your god doesn't heal amputees. He can't even get two christians to agree on what the bible says, so it is unlikely that he would ever be able to regrow bone and tissue.

The title of this site (and the writings on the main page of the site) are the words of one person who is no longer involved directly with the board. So we are sort of saddled with his legacy. Not that many of us disagree with what he wrote in the first place. But those are not our words. Right now, as far as I know, there aren't any atheist sites called WhyWontGodDoSomethingOrOTherInAGenericSense.com. So we're sort of stuck with this title.

As an atheist, I know very well why the dude isn't fixing any missing extremities. He doesn't exist. Which puts the kibosh on his plans to do whatever he would, as a loving and omnipotent dude, normally do in these circumstances. According to you, that part doesn't matter much because he wouldn't do anything anyway. According to others who have argued with us, the dude fixes all sorts of things all the time, he just doesn't heal amputees for reasons A, B and or C. We hear all sorts of excuses. I assume we have heard variations along the lines of the excuses you propose. We get so many kinds and types of excuses that frankly I can't keep track of them all.

Your god healed the barrenness of Sara. No other intervention by humans or any of gods kids were required. It may not have happened often, but it has happened, as per your book. Where does that leave your argument? The one that seems to say he can't even do it.

He doesn't heal because he doesn't exist. Millions of people say "Thank god" to a wide variety of good outcomes, be they pulled slivers or survival in a car wreck or their team winning a big game. If the dude can't or doesn't do much anyway, perhaps you should get out there and inform those who you at least agree with you a little bit about your christian beliefs. I don't know about the rest of the folks here, but I for one would love to hear the phrase "Thank god" disappear from our lexicon. Any help you can give towards that end would be appreciated.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Quesi on October 26, 2012, 11:27:23 PM
Welcome to the forum, Big V. 

I look forward to hearing more about your beliefs, and if you want to stick around, you might find some interesting discussions here. 

So the NT God doesn't heal.  That is an interesting observation.  I am not as familiar with the NT as you are, so I will take your word for it. 

But the OT God does heal.  So you are saying that God sent Jesus here to do the stuff the God (the father?) used to do, but decided not to do anymore? 

The OT God also killed.  A lot.  Floods, first born kids, locusts, Canaanites, burning down cities.  But after Jesus got here, he seemed to have gotten a little slack about that as well. 

The OT God also seemed to be ok with polygamy and extramarital liaisons.  I have no idea how Jesus felt about that stuff, but I always shake my head when Christians talk about biblical marriage.  But I digress.

Why is your OT God so different from your Jesus God?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Big V on October 27, 2012, 03:16:04 AM
Wow, the straw man argument exists in force on this site, typical, because the site is based on a single premise straw man argument, you simply twist a person's position and run with it, but that's cool.

Let's just go back to logic. If I have a house with 30 rooms and I give 1 room to my kids and tell them, hey this is your room, you can do what you want in this room, no adults allowed.  If my kids said, "Dad, come here and move this pencil from the table to the couch for me"  Well, I have a problem, I'm not a kid. Do I become a liar to move the pencil? Well, if I could become a kid I could move the pencil OR if by some power, I could operate in my kids body, I could then move the pencil. Either way, it isn't my room. I don't just do whatever I want in the room, if I am an honest person.

JESUS healed them all (over a dozen different occasions) His disciples HEALED. Peter, Paul, Philip, etc they ALL HEALED, as men. 

THEY never asked GOD to heal, they (men) healed them.   You don't ASK GOD to do something he has already given you the power to do. If the Iraqi war veteran amputee doesn't get healed, the fault actually lies with the person not with God. 

Follow me for a split second. God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us.   God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.

If you truly wanted (which apparently you don't) to see the Iraqi war veteran amputee healed, YOU would have to COOPERATE with God and get the same wisdom and power operating in JESUS operating in you to see that miracle accomplished.

As far as God being different in the New vs OLD Testament, that is another topic, you don't even have a basic understanding of who God is, so I can't digress, but I will say this, if you have seen HOW Jesus operates, you have actually seen the God of the Old Testament.




Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Graybeard on October 27, 2012, 05:17:36 AM
Wow, the straw man argument exists in force on this site, typical, because the site is based on a single premise straw man argument, you simply twist a person's position and run with it, but that's cool.
There is no strawman here, simply amazement at your statements so far.

If you are suggesting that there is no need for any medical personel, then I have to tell you that you are a danger to others.

If you are saying that medical knowledge is a "gift from God", I will have to ask you how you know this to be so, other than from biblical statements. There are enough prisoners who's excuse has been "God told me to kill them." (And killing people is one of God's pastimes.)

Quote
Let's just go back to logic. If I have a house with 30 rooms and I give 1 room to my kids and tell them, hey this is your room, you can do what you want in this room, no adults allowed.  If my kids said, "Dad, come here and move this pencil from the table to the couch for me"  Well, I have a problem, I'm not a kid. Do I become a liar to move the pencil? Well, if I could become a kid I could move the pencil OR if by some power, I could operate in my kids body, I could then move the pencil. Either way, it isn't my room. I don't just do whatever I want in the room, if I am an honest person.
You do not make yourself a liar, you make yourself a person who made a statement without thinking it through. What if the kid were injured on the floor - would you stay out?

You have a disturbing and unthinking attitude; a rigidity of thought that I last encountered in novels of the 19th century; your thought and knowledge seems mired in the past. What sort of education did you have?

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JESUS healed them all (over a dozen different occasions) His disciples HEALED. Peter, Paul, Philip, etc they ALL HEALED, as men. 
THEY never asked GOD to heal, they (men) healed them.   You don't ASK GOD to do something he has already given you the power to do. If the Iraqi war veteran amputee doesn't get healed, the fault actually lies with the person not with God.
And thus there has never, in all history, been an amputee who has been without that fault - whatever it is. However, the Bible records instances of "miraculous healing" that were done in the presence of the alleged Jesus - so what you are saying is that Jesus, for the last ~2000 years has done nothing.

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Follow me for a split second.
I AM following you, but only because I could not possibly find my way back. 
Quote
God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us. God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.
No. No. No. It is only a recent thought that "God lives in another dimension" - we never found Jesus saying this. We never found the Church saying this. We only found apologists saying this when other dimensions were postulated. We therefore see that it is a simple deception pulled out of thin air to prevent people losing their faith.

The trouble is, if you use the word "dimension" in the sense you intend, then a being in another dimension (and there would have to be more than one "dimension" in his world,) could not influence anything in our dimensions, because if he could, we could detect and identify him... and we can't.

Let me put it this way. I tell you to "go and get one of the boxes. The one that is 4 foot by 3 foot." You go to the warehouse but there are many 4 foot by 3 foot boxes. some are  2 foot deep, some are 3foot deep, etc. You cannot obey my order. You see one dimension does not affect other dimensions.

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If you truly wanted (which apparently you don't) to see the Iraqi war veteran amputee healed, YOU would have to COOPERATE with God and get the same wisdom and power operating in JESUS operating in you to see that miracle accomplished.
But if we want to cure someone of leprosy, and we can do, we have already cooperated, haven't we? So what's this trouble with amputees?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: 3sigma on October 27, 2012, 06:03:09 AM
You don't ASK GOD to do something he has already given you the power to do. If the Iraqi war veteran amputee doesn't get healed, the fault actually lies with the person not with God.

So your response to the question of why your god won’t heal amputees is to blame the victim. How Christian of you. Please tell us exactly how Iraq War veterans are at fault when they fail to regrow limbs blown off by IEDs?

Have people been given the power to regrow limbs? The conspicuous absence of regrown limbs strongly suggests they haven’t. So by your logic—and Matthew 21:22—believing Christians are encouraged to pray for their god to do it.

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Follow me for a split second. God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us.   God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.

I don’t believe you. Could you please establish the truth or validity of your claims that your god lives, that it is in another dimension and that it operates in this physical dimension? Please demonstrate to us that you are telling us the truth. If you cannot show us that any of this is true then why should we believe anything you say? Why shouldn’t we simply dismiss this as childish nonsense?

Quote
As far as God being different in the New vs OLD Testament, that is another topic, you don't even have a basic understanding of who God is, so I can't digress, but I will say this, if you have seen HOW Jesus operates, you have actually seen the God of the Old Testament.

By all means, please tell us what your god is. Please give us a factual description of your god. You can start by answering this question: is your god actually real or is it imaginary?

Also, I would appreciate it if you would answer my previous question that you have evaded. Are you admitting that prayer doesn’t work? Matthew 21:22 explicitly states that if a believing Christian asks for anything whatsoever in prayer, it will be received. If a believing Christian prays for amputees’ limbs to regrow, will it happen? Why not? Could it be that your god is imaginary?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Nam on October 27, 2012, 10:52:47 AM
I laughed when Big V used the word "logic" then told a story about "This room is for kids only -- no adults allowed". Which begs the question: what if someone gets hurt? and going by their story: if the adult goes in, they are a liar: they (the kids) have to "heal themselves". Makes the adulr irresponsible. Yeah Big V says s/he deals in logic but obviously they don't.

I was going to comment part by part but, what's the point?

-Nam
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Big V on October 27, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
Wow, o.k. The replies are all over the place and on different topics, but let me attempt to stay on point. I see I’m going to have to be here for a while.  First, there are specific reasons why the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” question is a straw man argument.  Foremost, for the sake of time, just Google “Straw Man Argument” so we can get on the same page.  So let me begin with some general points first about God.   God exists in another dimension, I call spirit. Man exists in another dimension, I call physical.  Man is a trans-dimensional being, not to be confused with trans-gender (sorry, thought that was funny as well).  So here is a general timeline of events.  God creates the physical universe, let’s say, 15 billion years ago, then forms a planet called earth, for giggles, 4.5 billion years ago, then creates man say, 70 thousand years ago.  (Now this isn’t an attack on the evolution fallacy, this is just so you can understand the “room in the house” from my earlier post.)

If you have followed this narrative (even if you don’t believe it) then we have an entire dimension for physical beings, NOT for spiritual beings and man being the ONLY hybrid creature. (100% Physical AND 100% SPIRITUAL)  This being, man, must learn to operate in the physical by accepting input from another dimension for spiritual power to be released. If man is ignorant of the spirit dimension, he is “stuck” so to speak, with only “physical dimension” power.   I just realized I had to say all this so you can get a perspective on HOW the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” is going to be healed.   

2000 years ago, this “Trojan war veteran amputee” (Yes, there is some attempt at humor there) would have been healed by Jesus or one of his disciples, not by praying and asking God.  To the degree these disciples had GOD already in them and to the degree they knew HOW to take instructions from God and release this healing power.    Once again 2000 years ago, they were not creating a “million Israeli - Arab prayer chain” and begging Yahweh to do anything.  My point is they didn’t use that approach 2000 years ago, so a person is in error to use that approach now.   That “prayer chain failure that proves God doesn’t exist” is central to this website. Many well-meaning, but ignorant Christians use that process and fail.  Jesus’ disciples are commanded that if they see the problem (the Iraqi war veteran amputee) AND IF the person is willing to receive; they (the disciple) heal them according to the power of God inside them already.  So Jesus, Paul, Peter, Ananias, etc., and other New Testament believers succeeded where you, could fail miserably, and it isn’t God to blame.

You know, God already came to the physical realm, “moved the pencil” and then left.  If he wants to move more pencils, He inhabits the BODY of a physical man (via explicit permission) , then gives  the man both wisdom and the power, “to move the pencil”  You are a trans-dimensional being, why don’t you ask God for a trip to the spirit realm for a God 101 class.  Zing.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 27, 2012, 11:25:41 AM
Big V

You forgot to make the kids sinners before you tossed them in the room. You gotta do your part if you're gonna ruin it for the brats.

It's a story. Created by ancients trying to meld actual wisdom with very incomplete views of reality. The concept of a god was inevitable. Multiple cultures did it. Your religious tradition included. Until christians can tell me why their "real" god is as reliant on faith and belief as all the non-existent gods of other religions, I have no reason to suspect for even a second that he is any more real.

Which would explain, of course, the actual reason he doesn't heal amputees.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jetson on October 27, 2012, 11:38:06 AM
Big V, welcome to the forum.

Please answer this simple question: do you believe that any human being has ever been healed directly by God as a result of prayer, ever?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 27, 2012, 11:54:27 AM
Big V

In your last post you mentioned "well meaning but ignorant christians". Apparently we get a lot of them around here and perhaps our initial responses to your posts are based on our past experience with such people.

Please tell us how to tell the difference and explain as precisely as you can why you are not ignorant like most of the others we have encountered here. And in real life. I for one have never had a christian say "And now, let us not pray".

I think you're the only one that has found a way to justify the inefficacy of prayer. Unless you're part of an organized religious group. If so, let us know the name of it. That would really help.

And please don't say Mormon. We're having trouble with that one right now.  ;D
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Nam on October 27, 2012, 12:08:25 PM
Wow, o.k. The replies are all over the place and on different topics, but let me attempt to stay on point.

How so?
 
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I see I’m going to have to be here for a while.

Oh, purty please?

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First, there are specific reasons why the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” question is a straw man argument.

It's your argument.

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Foremost, for the sake of time, just Google “Straw Man Argument” so we can get on the same page.

We know what it means, the question is: do you?

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So let me begin with some general points first about God.   God exists in another dimension,

What evidence do you have that "God" exists, at all? And, if it exists in another "dimension" how do you know if it's in another dimension since, as you say: it's separate from our physical world? Also, going by what Graybeard said: how come this "dimensional theory" has only recently come into fruition?

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I call spirit. Man exists in another dimension, I call physical.

Yeah: you call. Not the Bible. Or Jesus, or Biblegod. Just you, and those of your ilk.

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Man is a trans-dimensional being, not to be confused with trans-gender (sorry, thought that was funny as well).  So here is a general timeline of events.  God creates the physical universe, let’s say, 15 billion years ago, then forms a planet called earth, for giggles, 4.5 billion years ago, then creates man say, 70 thousand years ago.  (Now this isn’t an attack on the evolution fallacy, this is just so you can understand the “room in the house” from my earlier post.)

How could this be if everything is only 6,000 years old? Oh, so we will better understand it. Gotcha.

Please...

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If you have followed this narrative (even if you don’t believe it) then we have an entire dimension for physical beings, NOT for spiritual beings and man being the ONLY hybrid creature. (100% Physical AND 100% SPIRITUAL)

Evidence?

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This being, man, must learn to operate in the physical by accepting input from another dimension for spiritual power to be released. If man is ignorant of the spirit dimension, he is “stuck” so to speak, with only “physical dimension” power.   I just realized I had to say all this so you can get a perspective on HOW the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” is going to be healed.

Evidence?
   
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2000 years ago, this “Trojan war veteran amputee” (Yes, there is some attempt at humor there) would have been healed by Jesus or one of his disciples, not by praying and asking God.  To the degree these disciples had GOD already in them and to the degree they knew HOW to take instructions from God and release this healing power.    Once again 2000 years ago, they were not creating a “million Israeli - Arab prayer chain” and begging Yahweh to do anything.  My point is they didn’t use that approach 2000 years ago, so a person is in error to use that approach now.   That “prayer chain failure that proves God doesn’t exist” is central to this website.

You still have yet to answer my question (and anothers) about Matthew 7:7, 21:22 and Luke 11:9 which equally state, "If you ask[1] you shall receive.". When are you going to stop dodging 2 of us who posed that?

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Many well-meaning, but ignorant Christians use that process and fail.  Jesus’ disciples are commanded that if they see the problem (the Iraqi war veteran amputee) AND IF the person is willing to receive; they (the disciple) heal them according to the power of God inside them already.  So Jesus, Paul, Peter, Ananias, etc., and other New Testament believers succeeded where you, could fail miserably, and it isn’t God to blame.

And, why aren't there anyone today with such healing power? Why only 2,000 years ago?

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You know, God already came to the physical realm, “moved the pencil” and then left.  If he wants to move more pencils, He inhabits the BODY of a physical man (via explicit permission) , then gives  the man both wisdom and the power, “to move the pencil”  You are a trans-dimensional being, why don’t you ask God for a trip to the spirit realm for a God 101 class.  Zing.

Evidence?

-Nam
 1. pray
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: JeffPT on October 27, 2012, 12:25:17 PM
Big V. 

Let me try to understand you.  Basically, what you're saying is that everyone in today's world is doing it wrong, and that's why nobody receives their arms or legs back, correct?  And that the people back in biblical times were 'doing it right', and that's why they were able to heal.  Am I close here?  Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Let me propose a second possible solution for you.  Before I write it, however, I'd like to ask you to make a detailed breakdown of where my upcoming logical position fails in terms of what we see around us.  Can you do that for me please?  Alright... Here it is.  What if there was no God to heal amputees?  If that were true, would that satisfactorily explain why we don't see amputees grow arms and legs back?  Forget that you believe in God and approach it from a neutral position.  If it were true, and the entire universe were a naturally occurring phenomenon with no supernatural intervention, would that explain why amputees are getting arms and legs back?  It's a simple yes or no question. 

Now, you might try to argue that my explanation does not take into account the biblical accounts of healings like Jesus and Peter that you mentioned.  Rightfully so.  In and of itself, it doesn't.  But now, here is another possible explanation for that, that is fully congruent with the notion that God does not exist.  Here it is... the healings never took place, and the bible is a religious work of fiction where people lied about miraculous healings.  So if God is not real, and the bible is a work of fiction, would that not satisfactorily explain why we have no miraculous amputee healings today, and why we have writings in the bible that say healings happened 2000 years ago?  Try to back out of your God belief for just a moment and see if you can make sense of that.  All you really need to embrace is the notion that people can lie.  Can people lie? 

Your solution, while theologically sound to you, proposes an entity for which we have no evidence, and assumes that people 2000 years ago were capable of suspending the very laws of nature to provide miraculous healings because they were able to do the right incantations, movements, gyrations, potions, herbs, wording or what-have-you.  My solution does not propose an entity that we have no evidence for, embraces the reality that we see around us, and the only assumption we have to make is that people sometimes lie.  Do you really think yours makes more sense? 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: shnozzola on October 27, 2012, 12:27:07 PM
See V,
    You say:
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Case in point, when Jesus walked this earth, on over dozen occasions HE HEALED THEM ALL, not God.  I am not arguing against his deity, but for a very specific reason, Jesus (God) came as a MAN using the power of God inherent in men

I believe that Jesus did also exist, as you say.  Your logic is familiar to me since I also used it for many years.  While, IMO, Jesus had good things to say about us tossing laws and politics and caring about each other, when it comes to healing, it is a different story.

The difference between you and I now is that I give evolution, science, and human study as the reason for healing - not god, not Jesus.  You give Jesus some sort of connection to god that allows Jesus to channel the knowledge necessary to heal on the spot. (like McCoy in Star Trek's "Spock's Brain") I believe you also would next say that if we had the faith that Jesus had, we could heal like that also.

 No sir.  Even christian doctors study for years to learn the latest research to use to help those that nogodsforme just mentioned, with unambiguous conditions. And another thing, "Maimed" and "amputees" are not the same.
Many of us here studied the bible for years as you do.  Don't insult us.

IMO, V, the real point of this website is to make the" very sure" of their own religion, enough "less sure," that they open their minds toward endless possibilities (some of us are agnostic atheists), and refrain from persecuting those that come to a different opinion.   We could get into whether christian's are commanded to evangelise, but that's another thread, and, of course, Christians disagree on that also.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Graybeard on October 27, 2012, 01:52:05 PM
If you have followed this narrative (even if you don’t believe it) then we have an entire dimension for physical beings, NOT for spiritual beings and man being the ONLY hybrid creature. (100% Physical AND 100% SPIRITUAL) 
Big V:
I have removed one Darwin point from you as you persist in unsubstantiated statements. Any fool can invent things – here’s an example.
“Water flows naturally uphill as there is a quantum indifference to polarized molecules.”

Please do not use this “dimension” argument again. I have already explained the problem with “dimensions”

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God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us. God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.
No. No. No. It is only a recent thought that "God lives in another dimension" - we never found Jesus saying this. We never found the Church saying this. We only found apologists saying this when other dimensions were postulated. We therefore see that it is a simple deception pulled out of thin air to prevent people losing their faith

The trouble is, if you use the word "dimension" in the sense you intend, then a being in another dimension (and there would have to be more than one "dimension" in his world,) could not influence anything in our dimensions, because if he could, we could detect and identify him... and we can't.

Let me put it this way. I tell you to "go and get one of the boxes. The one that is 4 foot by 3 foot." You go to the warehouse but there are many 4 foot by 3 foot boxes. some are  2 foot deep, some are 3 foot deep, etc. You cannot obey my order. You see one dimension does not affect other dimensions.
Up until the late 19th Century, people believed that God was just like us, for we are “in His Image”, and that, somewhere up above the sky, there was a superhuman Man that was God. He lived in Heaven as per the description in the Old Testament.

Please tell us what new revelation by God Himself allowed you to invent this new “Dimension”.

I find a lot of Christians, particularly the fundamental types, use words that “mean what I say they mean” without using the real definition.

I will be asking you to define some of your terms. Please do not avoid those questions.


Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Nam on October 27, 2012, 04:18:15 PM
I was a regular at a Muslim website back in 2005, and they used the "dimensional" argument, a lot. I didn't read or hear Christians doing it 'til the past couple of years. Did they steal this idea from the Muslims, or is there evidence of this theory prior to 2000?

-Nam
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Graybeard on October 27, 2012, 07:14:56 PM
From the Oxford English Dictionary (subscription only)
The noun dimension is first recorded in the English language a little in 1413
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1413   Pilgr. Sowle (1483) v. xiv. 107   Ther is no body parfit withouten thre dymensions, that is breede, lengthe, and depnesse.
It took another ~450 years for dimension to be applied to time:
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1858   W. Whewell Hist. Sci. Ideas ii. viii. §4–5   Time is conceived as a quantity of one dimension..Indeed the analogy between time, and space of one dimension, is so close, that the same terms are applied to both ideas.
and a few years more to use it in the sense of "other dimensions" in the sense we now use it.
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1878   B. Stewart & P. G. Tait Unseen Universe vii. §220. 221   Suppose our (essentially three-dimensional) matter to be the mere skin or boundary of an Unseen whose matter has four dimensions.

These all seem to be secular references though. I suspect that "God in another dimension" arose around the late 1920s with the eccentric [wiki]John G. Bennett[/wiki], who
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suggested a six-dimensional Universe with the usual three spatial dimensions and three time-like dimensions that he called time, eternity and hyparxis. Time is the sequential chronological time that we are familiar with. The hypertime dimensions called eternity and hyparxis are said to have distinctive properties of their own. Eternity could be considered cosmological time or timeless time. Hyparxis is supposed to be characterised as an ableness-to-be and may be more noticeable in the realm of quantum processes. [Edit GB: or not.]

While Bennett has put forward some curious speculation, his ideas stop at some subjective aspects of the perception of time which does not place them on a fully scientific basis. The question of measurement, how one would measure these hypothetical extra time-like dimensions, is left unaddressed.

Bennett is perhaps best known for his many books on psychology and spirituality, and particularly the teachings of G.I. Gurdjieff, and starting the British section of the [wiki]Subud[/wiki] movement.

The basis of Subud is a spiritual exercise commonly referred to as the 'latihan kejiwaan', which was said by Muhammad Subuh to represent guidance from "the Power of God" or "the Great Life Force".

Add to this dumbed down science, superman and other sci-fi comic strips in the 1950s or 60s and these elements seem to account for the common low level of critical thought among Christians and others of a religious bent; they are determined to use big words to make their delusions sound important.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: 3sigma on October 27, 2012, 09:22:07 PM
I see I’m going to have to be here for a while.

I wouldn’t count on it if you continue to flout the rules. One of the rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21732.msg483894.html#msg483894) you agreed to when you registered was this:

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Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

Maybe you didn’t read the rules or you just ignored that rule the way you are ignoring our responses and questions, but this board takes that rule seriously so please stop behaving evasively and start answering our legitimate questions about your claims.

You stated in your initial post that there are no examples in the New Testament where believers are directed to pray for people to be healed; yet both Nam and I gave you several examples refuting your claim. In particular, Matthew 21:22 explicitly states that all things believers ask for in prayer shall be received. Logically, all things includes asking for people to be healed. How do you address those examples? Do you acknowledge that your claim was false? Christians often claim that prayers healed all sorts of maladies from toothache to cancer. How do you explain the fact that no amputee’s limb has ever regrown despite the many prayers people must have made asking for it to happen?

You stated in your second post that your god lives in another dimension and cannot heal people directly and that it is a person’s fault if they aren’t healed, yet you’ve evaded or ignored several requests from other posters for evidence and arguments supporting those claims. You sidestepped the questions from Quesi and Parking Places asking how your god healed people in the Old Testament and why it won’t do the same in the New Testament. You ignored Graybeard’s comments and questions. You ignored my requests for you to explain how people are at fault for not being healed. You ignored all my requests for evidence or arguments supporting your claims that your god lives and exists in another dimension.

In your third post, you simply repeated the claim that your god exists in another dimension and ignored all our requests for evidence or arguments supporting that claim. You made the additional claim that humans exist in this reality and simultaneously in your so-called spirit dimension. You claimed your god created the universe, the Earth and humans.

Not once have you provided a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to support any of your claims. You’ve ignored refutations of your claims. You’ve ignored and evaded legitimate questions about your claims. You are revealing yourself to be yet another gullible and evasive religious believer who is unable or unwilling to validate his or her religious beliefs. If you can’t summon the courage or intellectual honesty to answer our questions and validate your beliefs then you really have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this forum.

Please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to establish the truth or validity of your claims. However, to avoid unnecessary frustration and wasted effort, please truthfully answer this question first: is your god actually real or is it imaginary? I’m not asking if you believe it is real; I’m asking if it is actually real. Don’t give us your beliefs; give us the truth. If your god is imaginary then we can reasonably ignore anything else you have to say about it, as amusing and entertaining as it may be.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Nam on October 27, 2012, 09:35:23 PM
Well put 3sigma but I believe it's a Woosh! moment.

-Nam
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Big V on October 28, 2012, 04:09:13 AM
This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.

I have to bring my point to even a lower level, just to get you to understand why the question of  God not healing the Iraqi war veteran amputee is such a silly question.  At a root level, IF, just IF, there was a being with enough power to create 300 sextillion stars WHY would that omnipotent (Almighty) being respect the wishes of his own creation?  Why would he even ALLOW you to have a single thought contrary to his wishes?  IF this being existed and he allowed you to have a single thought, a single glance of the eye contrary to his will then he by definition restrains HIMSELF when dealing with you.  IF this being did exist he would have the INFINITE power to make sure you did everything EXACTLY as he wanted.    Unless…. He doesn’t want to control your actions.

My supposition is that God is Almighty (Omnipotent, or whatever term floats your boat) but has decided to A) Share a portion of his power with us  B) Respect our use of said power.  So that then begs the question, why? Well apparently, he wanted someone like him.  I’m not going to quote a lot of scripture because from reading the posts you generally lack the ability to correctly interpret scripture, so I’m going to stick with the realm of philosophy & nature, it will be easier for you to follow.   

The entire site is based on this general error, “If God were real, he would prove it by healing amputees, or moving pencils, something I (the atheist) can see and ‘prove’ Since I (the atheist) challenged him to do it, and he didn’t, he doesn’t exist.”    Here is the basis of your error (one of many)  Just because a being is Omnipotent doesn’t mean that that same being doesn’t operate with respect.  None of you respect my opinion, but I still have it, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, I have the right, to be wrong, if I am wrong, right?  :)

Ask yourself WHY would an Almighty being ALLOW you the right to be wrong? What RULES has HE HIMSELF set forth that he uses? Is it even POSSIBLE for a person to be Unlimited in Power but restrained in the exercise of the same said Power?  I already said before, Jesus healed amputees (the maimed, go read my first post) by definition, healing them all (the crowds) means, healing them ALL.   This SAME Jesus went to his own home town and COULD NOT (not WOULD) do any great miracles because of THEIR UNBELIEF.  (Mark 6:5 / Matthew 13:58 Google it) WHY? WHY? WHY? Does God have rules he lives by? Should an Almighty being live by his own rules?

The POWER to heal is available to every believer. If the said believer doesn’t believe in that power, or doesn’t know how to use that power, why would you fault God?  You mock the faith healers, and some are frauds, but some simply are being obedient and TRYING to do what Jesus did with some degree of success.  Sometimes legitimate people fail, but that comes from ignorance NOT GOD.

Once again, IF there is an Almighty being, you have to ask yourself WHY would he NEED to become a man. Why not just FORCE HIS WILL UPON EVERYONE? Your premise argument assumes God would over-run the will of a man to heal him and it also assumes if the believer (Christian) doesn’t know how to use the Gift of healing, God should snatch it from his hands and do it for him.  I just don’t see a God who devalues mankind, I see a God who values your opinion (even if it is wrong) values you and felt that it would be better to die on a cross than to be without you
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: 3sigma on October 28, 2012, 06:00:31 AM
In your latest post you again ignore all our requests for evidence to support your claims and go on blithely making your baseless assertions. You say if there is an almighty being and that is indeed the question. Is there? Is your god real or is it imaginary? Please stop evading and ignoring our questions and provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to establish the truth or validity of your claims. Show us that you are telling the truth. If you are unable or unwilling to do that then why should anyone believe your claims?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Graybeard on October 28, 2012, 08:08:19 AM
BIG V,
Pleases read 3sigma's quote below

In your latest post you again ignore all our requests for evidence to support your claims and go on blithely making your baseless assertions.
This is a difficult area. Your posts are hemmed around with "IF" - they are essentially meaningless in that, given any hypothesis plucked out of thin air, anyone may say "If X then Y".

This rhetorical tactic draws the reader into arguing why ""Y" may not/cannot be so" rather than the reader addressing why "X" is impossible.

Big V, you are assuming that (i) there is a deity and (ii) that deity is the one you worship, not any other deity. Of course you are aware that other religions worship other deities and use much the same arguments as you. It is therefore essential that you stop your hypothesising and give some credible indication that there exists the god you claim there to be.

GB Moderator
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: HAL on October 28, 2012, 08:28:34 AM
... and felt that it would be better to die on a cross than to be without you

So this god is dead? No, it can't be dead - it's a god. Dieing on a cross is no sacrifice at all becasue it isn't actually dead. Even if Jesus died on a cross, the Papa god could simply re-create it at it's leisure at any time so there is no loss really. If somehow Jeebus' adventure didn't work out right, Papa god could simply do it all again as many times as it needed - or - just dismiss with the whole silly extravaganza and snap it's fingers and make things right without all the muss and fuss.

So no, these gods you imagine don't really make sacrifices the way we do - they put on grand shows for humans.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jetson on October 28, 2012, 08:35:19 AM
This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.
...[snip]...

We were expecting you to actually say something.  Surprise!
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on October 28, 2012, 09:15:06 AM
Big V,

First, welcome to wwgha forum. 

Second, some friendly advice.  There will be problems with these kinds of remarks:

Wow, the straw man argument exists in force on this site, typical, because the site is based on a single premise straw man argument, you simply twist a person's position and run with it, but that's cool.

Wow, o.k. The replies are all over the place and on different topics, but let me attempt to stay on point. I see I’m going to have to be here for a while. 

or the sake of time, just Google “Straw Man Argument” so we can get on the same page. 

This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.

I have to bring my point to even a lower level, just to get you to understand why the question of  God not healing the Iraqi war veteran amputee is such a silly question. 

These words do not explain your points, they do not convince anyone your arguments are correct and they will not win you any friends.  You are being unnecessarily insulting and condescending.  I suggest you adopt a different approach and try a more friendly tone.

Last, you have misunderstood the point of the site, either because you have not read the entire online book or for some other reason.  Let me help explain.

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning. Among them is the fact there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally.  People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.

If you are not the kind of xian who believes in miraculous healing, and I cannot tell whether you are or are not, then the question is not aimed at you.  And your protestations are aimed at straw men.  (Pretty much everyone here is familiar with the term because xians tend to stuff a lot of straw men.) 

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 16, 2012, 03:31:09 PM
OP : Yes yes, we all know about the placebo effect. Congrats on finding that... :P

The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...

On the amputee thing, I thought I would address that right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...


Blessings
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: none on December 16, 2012, 03:37:12 PM
OP : Yes yes, we all know about the placebo effect. Congrats on finding that... :P

The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...

On the amputee thing, I thought I would adress that right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...


Blessings
the real question is "who gives a fuck?"
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Aaron123 on December 16, 2012, 03:50:59 PM
The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...

You'd need to explain how we'd distinguish this from something that the body/mind does on its own.


Quote
Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.


You make this sound like a bad thing.  Time and again, I've seen this "but then no more faith argument".  Time and again, nobody has ever been able to explain why this would be a bad thing.


Quote
He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that.


God does stuff that are completely indistinguishable from stuff that happens anyway.  How convenient.  Seriously, do you ever stop to think that perhaps you're just applying magical thinking?  If something doesn't need god to happen, that probably means god didn't make it happen.


Quote
This is also why it is written :

Wall of text.  I stopped reading at this point.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on December 16, 2012, 11:26:05 PM
Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might

Sorry.  Every xian I have spoken with says their faith is not blind faith.  And then they go on to describe their faith in the exact terms as the blind variety.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Nick on December 16, 2012, 11:29:46 PM
It must be blind faith with a seeing eye bible.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on December 19, 2012, 02:40:43 AM
Healing is built into out bodies by God so, how it is activated isn't really the issue.

The question, I think is funny is this, why ask God to heal when Jesus told believers to heal?

Mat_10:8  Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

As a matter of fact, for those of you like research, you can't find a SINGLE instance in the New Testament (I know you don't read it, but you can Google it) where ANY New Testament believers are directed to ASK GOD to heal anyone.  gasp. shock.  The central question of this website comes from a fallacy, that most Christians, unfortunately, believe and agnostics / atheists seize upon, God does NOT initiate healing, WE DO.  I could get into the silliness of Calvinism, but much of what I read here is your opposition to Calvinism, not any actual true Christian doctrine. Jesus was the SON OF MAN, so he was a man (If you care to acknowledge his existence).  But as a man, he NEVER prayed and ask GOD to heal anyone HE (Jesus) healed them as a man knowing how to use the power he was given.  And, to lay this to rest, he did heal the maimed (missing body parts, amputees, or whatever you want to call them)

Mat_15:30  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

I can expound much further on this, if you like, but the concept of asking God to heal isn't scriptural, nor is it Christian, WE are to heal. If you are following my logic, I would be glad to explain healing, faith healing, etc, but I find this supposedly impossible question a lesson in ignorance.  Why? It isn't scriptural nor Christian, to pray and ASK God to heal, you can't find any examples of it in the New Testament.  Healing lies on shoulders of the believer, not God. Case in point, when Jesus walked this earth, on over dozen occasions HE HEALED THEM ALL, not God.  I am not arguing against his deity, but for a very specific reason, Jesus (God) came as a MAN using the power of God inherent in men

So, to sum up my points.

Atheist: Well, let's pray and ask God to heal this amputee
Christian: Why don't we heal him, that's what Jesus told us to do, not just pray for him.
Atheist:  You don't want to pray for God to heal this amputee?
Christian: No, there is need to pray for God to heal, let's use the power God put in us to heal this amputee
Atheist: blah, blah, blah
Christian: Yada,Yada, Yada, Yada

I don't know, I thought the above discourse sounded funny in my head, but you get the point. Once again, the mechanics of HOW to get him (the amputee) healed via the supernatural power of God that rests in us is up for debate, but you truly misunderstand why GOD became a man in the first place.  You simply don't understand Christianity at the core. If God had permission to do everything he wanted to do in the first place, why go through the trouble of becoming a man? You simply don't know God, nor do you know who is really in charge of this earth.

Psa 115:16  The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

What an absolutely perfect (perfectly absurd!) way to make your religion (and your theology) immune from all criticism, refutation, and falsification! What you have demonstrated here is exactly what nearly all professing Christians (especially you apologists) try to do - that is...SPIN and rationalize the lack of "greater works" you are supposed to be doing. Please open your bible and read Mark 16, John 14, and 1 Cor 2 (among others). Jesus clearly (supposedly) stated that IF you are his follower then you WILL do greater works than he supposedly did. Where is your moved mountain? Actually, screw the mountain. Where is your moved continent!? Where is your cleared out hospital? And in the spirit of this forum...Where is your healed amputee!

Your rant above sounds like you started reading William Lane Craig and bought it hook, line, and sinker. "Well guys, if I can't do a miracle then it's not God's fault. It's mine." WOW. The astrologists, Hindu Yogi healers, alien abduction proclaimers, and new age mystics try this same kind of goal post shifting. It doesn't work for them and it doesn't work for you. I would ask you to actually be honest about why you believe what you do, but that might be asking too much, as it would likely require you to give up such absurdities.

Mark 16 -  16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

John 14:12 - I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

I Corinthians 2 - 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.a 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

Second, your assertion that it is not God who does the healing, but you (the believer), is yet another pathetic attempt at obfuscation.

Psalm 103:2-3 says, “Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits – who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases.

John 14 - 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.


Jesus "healed them" but "not God"? According to your own book (which violently contradicts you AND itself) Jesus IS God. So Yahweh God came down in human form and healed them (supposedly), AND he said HE would be doing the healing! I'm sorry, but this attempt to avoid the simple fact that your belief system is in conflict, and unjustified, just doesn't work.   

Lastly, regarding Calvanism...HA! I will let you debate Matt Slick over that one. You're bible is clearly self-contradictory when it comes to that subject. No, we are not battling Calvanism. We are battling your false dogmas and theologies.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on December 19, 2012, 03:26:38 AM
This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.

I have to bring my point to even a lower level, just to get you to understand why the question of  God not healing the Iraqi war veteran amputee is such a silly question.  At a root level, IF, just IF, there was a being with enough power to create 300 sextillion stars WHY would that omnipotent (Almighty) being respect the wishes of his own creation?  Why would he even ALLOW you to have a single thought contrary to his wishes?  IF this being existed and he allowed you to have a single thought, a single glance of the eye contrary to his will then he by definition restrains HIMSELF when dealing with you.  IF this being did exist he would have the INFINITE power to make sure you did everything EXACTLY as he wanted.    Unless…. He doesn’t want to control your actions.

My supposition is that God is Almighty (Omnipotent, or whatever term floats your boat) but has decided to A) Share a portion of his power with us  B) Respect our use of said power.  So that then begs the question, why? Well apparently, he wanted someone like him.  I’m not going to quote a lot of scripture because from reading the posts you generally lack the ability to correctly interpret scripture, so I’m going to stick with the realm of philosophy & nature, it will be easier for you to follow.   

The entire site is based on this general error, “If God were real, he would prove it by healing amputees, or moving pencils, something I (the atheist) can see and ‘prove’ Since I (the atheist) challenged him to do it, and he didn’t, he doesn’t exist.”    Here is the basis of your error (one of many)  Just because a being is Omnipotent doesn’t mean that that same being doesn’t operate with respect.  None of you respect my opinion, but I still have it, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, I have the right, to be wrong, if I am wrong, right?  :)

Ask yourself WHY would an Almighty being ALLOW you the right to be wrong? What RULES has HE HIMSELF set forth that he uses? Is it even POSSIBLE for a person to be Unlimited in Power but restrained in the exercise of the same said Power?  I already said before, Jesus healed amputees (the maimed, go read my first post) by definition, healing them all (the crowds) means, healing them ALL.   This SAME Jesus went to his own home town and COULD NOT (not WOULD) do any great miracles because of THEIR UNBELIEF.  (Mark 6:5 / Matthew 13:58 Google it) WHY? WHY? WHY? Does God have rules he lives by? Should an Almighty being live by his own rules?

The POWER to heal is available to every believer. If the said believer doesn’t believe in that power, or doesn’t know how to use that power, why would you fault God?  You mock the faith healers, and some are frauds, but some simply are being obedient and TRYING to do what Jesus did with some degree of success.  Sometimes legitimate people fail, but that comes from ignorance NOT GOD.

Once again, IF there is an Almighty being, you have to ask yourself WHY would he NEED to become a man. Why not just FORCE HIS WILL UPON EVERYONE? Your premise argument assumes God would over-run the will of a man to heal him and it also assumes if the believer (Christian) doesn’t know how to use the Gift of healing, God should snatch it from his hands and do it for him.  I just don’t see a God who devalues mankind, I see a God who values your opinion (even if it is wrong) values you and felt that it would be better to die on a cross than to be without you

Wow, there is some really "meaty", yet still 100% wrong, stuff here!

Paragraph 1 (God's will/control) - Do you not believe God is in complete control (i.e. - sovereign?) over his creation? Is there ANYTHING (anything at all) that happens AGAINST (or outside) your Yahweh's ultimate "plan"?? The funny part about this statement is the big "IF" but I'd like to see how you attempt to reconcile this most glaring problem of divine determinism.

It's The Grand Cosmic Kim Jong Il, who has a grand will, but still lets you work in his rock quarry for soup and bread, only to meet the very end he intended and setup from the start.

Paragraph 2 (Omnipotence) - It's hilarious how condescending you are this early in the game. We "lack the ability to correctly interpret scripture"?? HA! This is what the Muslims say too. NOPE. FAIL. This is 100% Ad Hominem. Look at you, the pot calling the kettle black! Please see "hypocrisy" in the dictionary. Assuming your interpretation of the bible will get you nowhere here.

Paragraph 3 (General Error of WWGHAF?) - This is a Straw Man fallacy. No one has stated this. You are deliberately misrepresenting the position of those who disagree with you. WOW. You need to demonstrate how you know this "omnipotent being" exists before your following premises can be taken seriously.

Paragraph 4 (God's rules?) - You keep asking questions as if we accept your holy book as authoritative on any subject. You do know that we don't, right? So asking questions like this is quite absurd. I don't ask your "Why?" questions. I ask HOW DO YOU KNOW? questions - such as, "How do you know these passages should be taken as authoritative or literally true, at all?

Paragraph 5 (Power to heal?) - I can smell the SPIN coming from miles away. "Oh, I have the power to heal but I just can't access it yet. I'm not perfected yet. It's just not there yet." I don't disagree that some believers are being "obedient" to what they think is true. The question is why they think it's true (in spite of lots of evidence to the contrary). Answer? DELUSION...

Paragraph 6 (Why God became man?) - He didn't! But if I was thinking along your lines I wouldn't be asking your question. I'd be saying, "Why not just forgive everyone and divinely teach them the 'right' way?" Your questions are stemming from your presupposition (your assumption that the bible is the infallible word of Yahweh). That is your first and biggest mistake.

(http://www.bookswim.com/images_books/large/The_Christian_Delusion_Why_Faith_Fails-65581.jpg)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: dloubet on December 21, 2012, 03:05:23 AM
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

But if you convince us of the existence of the god with what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument, then we will believe through evidence and logical argument, and not faith. If we have evidence, we do not need faith to believe. And once we actually have belief through evidence, we cannot then ever resort to faith in order to believe. You would have forever tainted our belief with evidence and logic. You would condemn us to being the kind of believers you insist the god does not want.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Bagheera on December 21, 2012, 03:58:06 AM
The only thing I've learned so far from reading this thread is that "Straw Man Argument" means "one that I can't adequately refute".
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Seppuku on December 21, 2012, 05:36:30 AM
The 'no faith' argument doesn't really work. Why does God need us to have faith to believe in his existence rather than just confirm his own existence and let us decide whether or not we'll worship him, because if he's giving us the freedom of choice to worship or not worship him, then we need to know if he really does exist. There's a whole number of people in situations where they could never have faith in bible God, either because they simply cannot believe what they do not know or because they belong to a different faith altogether. For those of another faith, there's nothing that would suggest that they're wrong and Christianity is right and they've completely missed the opportunity to have a relationship with the 'right' God, heck that could play with their chances of getting into heaven. Heck, these non-believers really haven't got the choice to follow this God because they don't believe that he exists.

But if that God is so adamant to have us uncertain about his existence, then healing amputees wouldn't change that. Because if a Priest, a Rabbi, a Sheikh, a Shaman, a Guru, a Buddhist Monk and various other religious figures could heal somebody's leg then we can't determine that the God of the bible did it...or in the case of Buddhism, that a god even did it (as Buddhism doesn't have any gods).

Though the point of this site is not about faith healing, the question "Why Won't God Heal Amputees" is less to do with the power of God but more to do with what he promises in the bible. Look on the main website and it'll show you which parts to the bible we're talking about, it's about the nature of prayer. In essence, if believers ask, they shall receive, but all that ever seems to be received are things that could have occur without divine intervention and the rate of success seems remarkably low...so low you could just say it's coincidence, because coincidences happen. If God is adamant on us being uncertain of His existence, then why does he promise us that prayer will work? Of course, it doesn't, leaving me to assume that the bible isn't exactly being truthful.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 08:59:24 AM
^ Therefore, there must be a plan. A perfect plan. The plan of the ages. To all the questions one can't answer, the answer is : "Yehovah has a plan". He doesn't lose. So whatever the end result, it's gonna be a good one, or the best possible one.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 09:07:13 AM
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

But if you convince us of the existence of the god with what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument, then we will believe through evidence and logical argument, and not faith. If we have evidence, we do not need faith to believe. And once we actually have belief through evidence, we cannot then ever resort to faith in order to believe. You would have forever tainted our belief with evidence and logic. You would condemn us to being the kind of believers you insist the god does not want.
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Garja on December 21, 2012, 12:44:52 PM
^ Therefore, there must be a plan. A perfect plan. The plan of the ages. To all the questions one can't answer, the answer is : "Yehovah has a plan". He doesn't lose. So whatever the end result, it's gonna be a good one, or the best possible one.

Shin, wouldn't a perfect plan created by a perfect individual have a 100% success rate?  Why do I, after believing it for the first 32 years of my life, now think its utter horseshit and an embarrassment that I believed for so long?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Seppuku on December 21, 2012, 04:31:27 PM
^ Therefore, there must be a plan. A perfect plan. The plan of the ages. To all the questions one can't answer, the answer is : "Yehovah has a plan". He doesn't lose. So whatever the end result, it's gonna be a good one, or the best possible one.

That doesn't really answer anything.

If anything it suggests the complete opposite for me. God will only perform miracles that would occur naturally, or could be the result of a placebo effect or could be replicated in an bad stage display (the old one leg shorter than the other trick, yes and magicians can saw people in half!).

Or there's the prayer, where God will only answer prayers at a rate so low you could suggest it's chance and the prayers he does answer could have happened without his intervention. Despite the fact in the bible He promises prayer works differently.

Quote from: Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!


Quote from: Matthew 17:20
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Quote from: Matthew 21:21
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Quote from: Matthew 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Quote from: John 14
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

I can deduct from this, if you're a believer and ask from God and you shall receive it and if you believe you have received something then you have received it and if you have faith then you can instruct a mountain to move and nothing will be impossible to you.


And yet I see so many people profess to be true believers to be truly faithful and yet I have never seen them do anything extraordinary with their connection to the divine. Our challenge on this site is for any such believers to use their power to heal amputees. If faith healers are genuine faith healers and their miracles are not cons, then surely they could do much more impressive things with their faith, they could send their prayers to God and achieve great things...but they don't.

To me that suggests, either that the faithful are not willing, the bible is wrong or God simply does not exist and people just think He does and fall for these cons.

None of this suggests a divine plan, because surely if there's a divine plan and if affects how prayers are answered, Jesus would have taken special care to not make empty promises.

No, what this suggests to me, answers like "it's a part of God's plan" are attempts to rationalise why things don't go the way they ought, rather than accept how things are. Perhaps I'd accept that as an answer if things weren't suggesting the opposite.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 21, 2012, 06:02:43 PM
^ Well... I have to admit that your post is a very good one. The only thing I can say is that the 144.000 of Revelation(which are already in the earth) will be soon be able to perform such miracles as the mountain thing. Let's w8 & see.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Garja on December 21, 2012, 09:43:14 PM
So.... soon.... we will have zombies roaming the earth who have been dead for between thousands and dozens of years performing miracles that should be done "with the faith of a mustard seed"?  Tossing mountains around and what not?  Honestly Shin.... how do you get this shit?  -And if you quote some internet douchebag I will e-punch you in the face!  ;)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Nam on December 22, 2012, 04:06:35 AM
Where's Simon Pegg when you need him?

-Nam
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 22, 2012, 10:02:50 AM
So.... soon.... we will have zombies roaming the earth who have been dead for between thousands and dozens of years
No... they are not dead. They are all alive. They are all from this last generation.

performing miracles that should be done "with the faith of a mustard seed"?  Tossing mountains around and what not? 
Yes.

Honestly Shin.... how do you get this shit?
From here : http://trumpetcallofgod.com/
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Garja on December 22, 2012, 11:18:40 AM
AHHH.... ON the Earth, you said IN so I got confused.... oh, and:

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQpGtwTHjm4H4YUgT4ghWSMji8bg8DkUiPznrSPyBNfzIkkAG0)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on December 22, 2012, 01:14:58 PM
^ Well... I have to admit that your post is a very good one. The only thing I can say is that the 144.000 of Revelation(which are already in the earth) will be soon be able to perform such miracles as the mountain thing. Let's w8 & see.

WoW. Really?? This is the whole, "You made really good points, and I can't refute them, but I'm going to keep believing because it's too painful to admit my beliefs are in error" tactic. What hubris! Seppuku's post completely demolished your bible's reliability. How can you sit there, in honesty, claiming to still believe this nonsense when you've just been shown that it is totally inconsistent and irrational??
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 22, 2012, 01:20:09 PM
^^ He uses method #2. He doesn't know what it is, but he uses it.



Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on December 22, 2012, 01:29:30 PM
OP : Yes yes, we all know about the placebo effect. Congrats on finding that... :P

The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...


And what if pink magic unicorns are controlling our thoughts from the backside of Pluto? These far fetched "what if" questions are only being posited because you have assumed your religion is true and you are now trying every which way to defend it against scrutiny or critical thinking. You have started with your conclusion. That is backwards.

On the amputee thing, I thought I would address that right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. This is also why it is written :...

Faith ISN'T required! That is exactly the point. Faith is not a good thing. Faith is just gullibility dressed up. Faith is believing something when you have no good reason to do so. It is the excuse people give when they can't give good reasons, or demonstrable unequivocal (https://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=v9U&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&spell=1&q=unequivocal&sa=X&ei=8_vVUPL_KMePiAL91ICoDw&ved=0CDQQvwUoAA), evidence for their beliefs.

Faith is not a pathway to truth.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: dloubet on December 25, 2012, 06:57:52 PM
SHIN KAIRI wrote:
Quote
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.

Nice dodge.

I don't agree with your knowledge/faith position. However, even if this claim were true, it says nothing about knowledge requiring faith. If you believe god desires faith, and yet you convince us through knowledge (evidence), then we will be the faithless believers that you claim the god does not want. In other words, if you convince us through evidence, we will not have faith. So contrary to what you claim the god wants, you are attempting to create faithless believers.

Please address the point that you are working at cross purposes to your god.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: dsmartinello on May 28, 2013, 12:16:57 AM
I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Astreja on May 28, 2013, 12:25:57 AM
I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.

Welcome to the forums, Mr. Martinello!

I work in medicine.  I've typed literally tens of thousands of reports (I estimate something like 40,000) over the past 7 years or so.

I've never encountered a situation such as you describe, and none of the dozens of physicians for whom I type has ever alluded to even a slight belief in supernatural healing.  I suspect the emotionalism and speculation tends to dwell more on the religious side, not with the non-theists or proponents of naturalism.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on May 28, 2013, 09:59:40 AM
We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones...

What about amputations?  That's kind of the whole point of the site.  What is it about amputations, lost eyes, and alzheimers that god never manages to cure those ailments?

Such documented cases abound

Then they should be easy to establish.  Yet... nothing.

and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today.

Or that could be more easily explained by doctor's own superstitions and biases?

Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative ...

Examples, please?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on May 29, 2013, 03:32:39 AM
We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound.....

HI there DS - welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately, it looks like the link/s you gave to some of these documented cases didn't appear in your post.  I look forward to you posting them so we can discuss them.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Lectus on May 30, 2013, 09:13:25 AM
I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.

Yes, I studied hypnosis deeply and I can assure some diseases can be cured with the power of the mind.

Most miracles you see in the church are just subtle suggestion: random pain disappears, person stops smoking, person stops drinking alcohol, person gets a better outlook in life and stops depression.

ALL these can be done in the church. None of these is supernatural. A bad mindset CAN cause diseases, even cancer.

I think this thread is probably the best argument for faith healing.

Amputees will never get healed though. It's a PHYSICAL problem. An arm won't grow back. Heck, not even hair in bald men will grow back.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on May 30, 2013, 11:21:12 AM
I think you have a point about auto suggestion, time, improved diet and other such assumptions as to why some prayer may be answered without a need for God's intervention. Hope and expection actually aid the immune system. I would disagree that God has somehow been eliminated from the process. We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given. Such documented cases abound and may explain why 3 out of 4 doctors believe in at least some cases of supernatural healing in the world today. Most of the arguments against healing that I've seen in this forum are highly emotional and speculative and seem determined to prove the belief in methodological naturalism.

A supernatural explanation for a rare occurrence  is never a viable option because the very nature of that type of explanation is the attempt to explain a mystery by another mystery. How absurd. The only way I could see you Christians proving your case regarding miracles is if your Yahweh deity came down (out of hiding) and actually showed us the process each and every time (in detail), and by that time it would no longer be a mystery. As I see it, that would be the only time you could call something supernatural (i.e. - Yahweh came out of hiding, demonstrated the process consistently, and then told us we don't have the power to do it). But wait! According to the bible he did tell the believers they have the power to perform the miraculous etc (Mark 16, John 14, etc). So this wouldn't even cut it. It would juts be common knowledge that everyone on the planet has the power the heal others (i.e. - it wouldn't be controversial).

Bottom line: there is just no good reason for thinking there is anything such as "the supernatural". Just like the word "God", the word "supernatural" does not refer to anything real or actual.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Graybeard on June 02, 2013, 04:15:04 PM
[...] We would have to look at claims of healing such as cancer, broken bones and the like to see if there are any proven cases where healing has taken place in such a way that no natural explanation can possibly be given.
Just because we do not know the answer, does not mean that you can fill in the blanks with some ridiculous fairy story.

You will note that over the years we have found the answer to more and more things, and each time, the supernatural has had to take a step back.

For you, the supernatural is what you do not understand; for the rest of us, what we do not understand is something we need to research so we can find an answer - and the answer is never supernatural.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: epidemic on June 03, 2013, 09:31:55 AM
Now if limbs spawned naturally then wouldn't that be attributed to natural processes?  As such it would not be proof of the supernatural?

Of course if Catholics were the only ones who spawned new limbs that might be proof of something???
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on June 03, 2013, 09:33:45 AM
Nothing can prove to be supernatural because the whole concept of the supernatural is incoherent.

A god could be proven to exist, mind you - gods being natural creatures.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: epidemic on June 03, 2013, 12:44:01 PM
Nothing can prove to be supernatural because the whole concept of the supernatural is incoherent.

A god could be proven to exist, mind you - gods being natural creatures.

Gods could be proven to exist even if they were supernatural.   All they need do is expose themselves and prove their supernatural state.

Turn off the sun for a second and then turn it back on.   like that unrecorded event upon Jesus's death.  If cultures around the world spoke of a day when the sun went out in the middle of the day.   That would be a helluva good corroberation of the bible.  That shit would have been recorded by every culture in Europe, Asia, the middle east, Africa...  Yet only 1 or 2 texts speak of it and they are both in the bible.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Garja on June 03, 2013, 03:11:06 PM
^ yeah, they would just have to interact with the natural world.  Thereby leaving evidence - which gods seem suspiciously want to do.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Astreja on June 03, 2013, 11:35:28 PM
Turn off the sun for a second and then turn it back on.   like that unrecorded event upon Jesus's death.  If cultures around the world spoke of a day when the sun went out in the middle of the day.   That would be a helluva good corroberation of the bible.  That shit would have been recorded by every culture in Europe, Asia, the middle east, Africa...  Yet only 1 or 2 texts speak of it and they are both in the bible.

I always found that a bit... odd.  Something as extraordinary as 3 hours of darkness over Jerusalem, and no non-Biblical record of it?  If it had actually happened, why do no Roman letters or journals mention it?  Why no mention in Jewish history?  Why no mention in the writings of any of the neighbouring peoples?  Surely somebody was passing through town that day and would have mentioned the light going out for 3 bleepin' hours!
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: epidemic on June 04, 2013, 08:32:47 AM
of course other ways to prove supernatural.


On the flashy side:
You can turn off the sun.   

appear in the sky to everyone at once and say follow x book. (2 minutes per generation or so out of your schedule)

Regrowing limbs only for the faithful.

have people change color when they sin and return when they attone for the sin.  (this might be good for police work as well)

The mustard thing would be pretty cool.  pray for a mountain to move and it does...

On the passive not so flashy side:
You could make people who follow the word have demonstrably less suffering (peaceful death, old age, less dissease, lower childhood mortality...)  Now when you look at muslims, bhudists, atheists ... lot in life and say hey perhaps there is something to this christianity (insert true religion here) thing.

Leave Christian (or insert true religion)  houses stand in the midst of a tornado.  You can still get your killing in and prove why you cursed the other people.  (this leaves it up to you to see the pattern but it is there for all to see if they look)



Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 08, 2013, 12:42:25 PM
of course other ways to prove supernatural.


On the flashy side:
You can turn off the sun.   

appear in the sky to everyone at once and say follow x book. (2 minutes per generation or so out of your schedule)

Regrowing limbs only for the faithful.

have people change color when they sin and return when they attone for the sin.  (this might be good for police work as well)

The mustard thing would be pretty cool.  pray for a mountain to move and it does...

On the passive not so flashy side:
You could make people who follow the word have demonstrably less suffering (peaceful death, old age, less dissease, lower childhood mortality...)  Now when you look at muslims, bhudists, atheists ... lot in life and say hey perhaps there is something to this christianity (insert true religion here) thing.

Leave Christian (or insert true religion)  houses stand in the midst of a tornado.  You can still get your killing in and prove why you cursed the other people.  (this leaves it up to you to see the pattern but it is there for all to see if they look)


The absolute lack of this kind of demonstrable evidence is exactly why I say faith is worthless. For these believers (who have assumed their holy book in advance) they have been SOLD on the idea that when they have doubts, when they see no good evidence, or when they notice inconsistencies and/or direct contradictions to these extraordinary claims they should just have faith. In other words, they bought into the idea that they should just keep believing, in spite of the fact that the evidence goes in the opposite direction of their assumed worldview, and interpretation of ancient texts. This is one of the things I cannot stand about religious apologists (whether of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or otherwise). They just keep assuming their view and trying to shift the burden of proof onto those of us who reject that view. Somehow, they think it's OK to pass the buck off onto anyone who doesn't agree. It's the, "Well, if you don't agree then your just blind" fallacy (which is, yet again, another attempt to assume their biblical interpretation in advance).

And one of the most hilarious things about this is that if a salesman came to their door and started using their same type of faulty reasoning (obfuscating, shifting the burden, equivocating on terms, using the argument from ignorance, etc),  to support a particularly "magical" product, they would quickly reject the salesman's irrationality and appeals to emotion. But they didn't do this when their parents sold them! Still too, claiming they had some "experience" with some alleged invisible entity called Yahweh only turns them into another salesman. It's the worst kind of network marketing scheme!

Again I ask, how is their claim any different from superstition?

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 08, 2013, 07:30:24 PM
^^^Exactly. God gets away with crap explanations that no night-time infomercial would try.

There is this incredible product that cures everything but is invisible and undetectable by any human measure. We have no photo or any other concrete evidence of the product (trust us, it really does exist because we say it does), the claims of the commercial are fantastic and nonsensical (you will lose 100 lbs in one night if you rub the product on your feet and then chant this magic word while standing on your head) and you would have no idea if you ever got the invisible  product (again, you have to keep on trusting us, if you stop believing in the product, well then you really won't ever get it).

Would anyone click on the "buy now" button? Is is amazing that so many people believe in gods when none of them would fall for a scam as lame as that under any other circumstances.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: magicmiles on June 09, 2013, 05:37:50 AM

? Is is amazing that so many people believe in gods when none of them would fall for a scam as lame as that under any other circumstances.

Do you fall for any scams NGFM?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: DVZ3 on June 09, 2013, 05:13:29 PM
There always has been and always will be snake oil salesmen because there has been and always will be people who will buy anything, real or metaphorically speaking of coarse for all sorts of reasons.  Typically it people who are down and out and/or people looking for the instant something to happen. I find it interesting to watch and listen from the people trying to sell their product. It's an art really to act and/or be confident enough to sell something even the person marketing the bullshit. As soon as you learn and realize this and begin to question things and look for evidence.

This is what Christians fail to realize which is the core of what this site is about.  To critically think and question what other people are trying to sell/market as truth regardless if the misleading product is something they havent figured out yet is snake oil.

People sell and market (spread lies and untruths) for all sorts of reasons but typically it is for something that is self-sustaining; monetary is usually the number one but usually it is just the unsuspecting Christian that was just born and raised with the snake oil already being spread upon the family.

Do people fall for scams? Absolutely, as everyone wants to believe the unbelievable is true even when deep down they know it's not.  All this is the very essence of the saying "if it's too good to be true then it probably isn't". This is also ironically the simple foundation of the more technical "occam's razor" philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

George Carlin said it best though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtK_YsVInw8
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 11:45:16 AM

? Is is amazing that so many people believe in gods when none of them would fall for a scam as lame as that under any other circumstances.

Do you fall for any scams NGFM?

My daddy was a professional con artist. I fell for many of his scams, until I finally realized that, sadly, I could not trust anything he said. He was also a devoutly religious, even fanatical Jehovah's Witness, and I was raised in that faith.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 02:41:51 PM
^^^
His cons included bogus get rich-quick schemes, pyramid marketing programs, fictitious businesses, and number-running. For those who don't know what numbers running was, back before the state lottos made small-time gambling legal, crooks like my dad sold numbers to poor people and sometimes even held a drawing and gave the winners a prize. I don't think my daddy ever gave anyone a prize, though, just ripped people off. Since it was illegal, who would anyone complain to? He was run out of a few towns, and had to get bailed out of trouble by his family several times, though. He used to fuss about how people like him were driven out of the numbers business when the government started the lotto.  &)

Can I add that none of his professional scams  were nearly as lame and bereft of real value as the religion we were raised in. And amazingly enough, that was the only scam he fell for himself. He was still refusing recommended blood transfusions during his last illness. I can't figure why he thought that would matter to Jehovah God, when he had done so many other forbidden things (scamming, domestic abuse, drinking, smoking, etc.) during his life. :P
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 03:36:19 PM
His cons included bogus get rich-quick schemes, pyramid marketing programs, fictitious businesses, and number-running. For those who don't know what numbers running was, back before the state lottos made small-time gambling legal, crooks like my dad sold numbers to poor people and sometimes even held a drawing and gave the winners a prize. I don't think my daddy ever gave anyone a prize, though, just ripped people off. Since it was illegal, who would anyone complain to? He was run out of a few towns, and had to get bailed out of trouble by his family several times, though. He used to fuss about how people like him were driven out of the numbers business when the government started the lotto.

"Emotions" are the key to all persuasions.  Evil will use this fact to create ways to take advantage of what is good and constructive.  No surprises here.

Just as evil will ask why a severed arm does not come back. 
Evil people playing on emotions.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 04:32:27 PM
And when "evil" has no explanation and neither does religion, science creates a prosthetic arm, and works on ways to grow the person a new one.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: magicmiles on June 10, 2013, 04:51:40 PM
NGFM, sounds like your upbringing was difficult, to say the least. You must have some amazing qualities to be where you are now. I'm impressed.

I no longer wish to pursue the line of discussion I had in mind when I asked you the question.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 06:27:12 PM
And when "evil" has no explanation and neither does religion, science creates a prosthetic arm, and works on ways to grow the person a new one.

Evil simply corrupts that which is constructive and good. 
It has no power in itself.  It simply degrades rather than
creates.  We don't live in heaven where Creation would
a normal experience.

We live in a corrupted place, separated from God. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on June 10, 2013, 06:33:19 PM
So you are separated from God.  Interesting.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 08:02:00 PM
NGFM, sounds like your upbringing was difficult, to say the least. You must have some amazing qualities to be where you are now. I'm impressed.

I no longer wish to pursue the line of discussion I had in mind when I asked you the question.

Send me a PM then. I am game to discuss just about anything. ;)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 08:05:06 PM
And when "evil" has no explanation and neither does religion, science creates a prosthetic arm, and works on ways to grow the person a new one.

Evil simply corrupts that which is constructive and good. 
It has no power in itself.  It simply degrades rather than
creates.  We don't live in heaven where Creation would
a normal experience.

We live in a corrupted place, separated from God.

Who created evil, again? And why didn't we just live in heaven from the getgo--what's the point of the "beta" version (the corrupted place) with all the opportunities to screw up?  :-\
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 11, 2013, 12:26:22 AM
And when "evil" has no explanation and neither does religion, science creates a prosthetic arm, and works on ways to grow the person a new one.

Evil simply corrupts that which is constructive and good. 
It has no power in itself.  It simply degrades rather than
creates.  We don't live in heaven where Creation would
a normal experience.

We live in a corrupted place, separated from God.

...just not in any way you can demonstrate.

You can stop paraphrasing bible verses now. Would you accept it if I started paraphrasing the Koran at you? Most of us know what your bible says, and we reject it's claims. The question is, why have you chosen to accept it uncritically?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Astreja on June 11, 2013, 10:01:21 AM
"Emotions" are the key to all persuasions.  Evil will use this fact to create ways to take advantage of what is good and constructive.  No surprises here.

Just as evil will ask why a severed arm does not come back.  Evil people playing on emotions.

"Evil" does this or "Evil" does that?  Seriously, that kind of anthropomorphism is victim-speak.  It separates people from their actions and attributes them to an outside entity.

What does that say about other human endeavours?  Is a skilled classical guitarist adept because of thousands of hours of practice, or is he a victim of the whims of "Music"?  Is a surgeon at the top of her form because she put in the time and effort, or did "Medicine" tag-team her for excellence and foist it upon her against her will?

And  we're "evil people" now because we correctly observe that severed arms don't grow back?  I shall wear that particular badge with pride, as I see nothing "good and constructive" in making excuses for do-nothing deities or promising True Healing™ in a mythical afterlife.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 11, 2013, 10:57:04 AM
As this is my first post in this forum, please forgive me and re-direct as appropriate if I stray.

First off, I want to state that I am a critical thinking Born Again Christian.

So with that, here is my attempt to answer the question:
God does not heal amputees because He does not work in reverse. He is not all powerful because He gave us free will.

Prayer only works going forward.

There are several difficulties with the premise of this question. First, what is the perception of God that is being referred to here? I don't think there is agreement on that and so every respondent first creates a mental model (or perception) of the God about whom they are about to opine before proceeding. The difficulty is that there are several fundamental issues of philosophy that have taken many great thinkers to task in the past that are not agreed upon/resolved as a basis of the question. e.g. what is real? what exists? and by even entertaining a discussion about the concept of God, God has been created and therefore exists?

So perhaps, if it was clearer what the perception of God that was intended in the question, I may be able to give a better answer.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: naemhni on June 11, 2013, 11:18:01 AM
Hi, Zele, welcome to WWGHA.  I hope you find your time here informative and enjoyable.

To take the most pertinent part of what you're asking here:

There are several difficulties with the premise of this question. First, what is the perception of God that is being referred to here? I don't think there is agreement on that and so every respondent first creates a mental model (or perception) of the God about whom they are about to opine before proceeding. The difficulty is that there are several fundamental issues of philosophy that have taken many great thinkers to task in the past that are not agreed upon/resolved as a basis of the question. e.g. what is real? what exists? and by even entertaining a discussion about the concept of God, God has been created and therefore exists?

So perhaps, if it was clearer what the perception of God that was intended in the question, I may be able to give a better answer.

The god being referred to here is Yahweh, the god of the bible.  There are several passages in the four gospels where Jesus states, quite explicitly, that if you have faith, you will receive anything you ask for in prayer; no qualifications or limitations on that promise are attached to it.  That being the case, if someone has faith, they should be able to pray for an amputee to get his leg back, and the leg should spontaneously and miraculously reappear.  And yet, it never happens.  The question is meant to make believers think about their beliefs.  Sometimes, it even works.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 11, 2013, 11:35:19 AM
As this is my first post in this forum, please forgive me and re-direct as appropriate if I stray.

Welcome to the forum

First off, I want to state that I am a critical thinking Born Again Christian.

Isn't that kind of like being a happily married adulterer?

So with that, here is my attempt to answer the question:
God does not heal amputees because He does not work in reverse. He is not all powerful because He gave us free will.

Prayer only works going forward.

I have no idea what that means or how any of that fits together.

So perhaps, if it was clearer what the perception of God that was intended in the question, I may be able to give a better answer.

It is based on a plain, straightforward reading of the bible.  Read the argument at main site.  It may help:
http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/summary.htm
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 11, 2013, 11:55:56 AM
OK Pianodwarf - I presume

>That being the case, if someone has faith, they should be able to pray for an amputee to get his leg back
You are referring to Mathew 21:22 right? If i suppose that you are then, this is easily answered with

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." - It therefore simply means you do not believe and that is why the amputees leg does not grow back. I suspect that does not really satisfy as we are into something that is not decidable. And if I say yes,  it means no one believes as there is no recorded history of the legs ever growing back - then you say?? Whilst this might be logical, it is not really credulous.

So i re-state my initial position. God is not all powerful and prayer only works going forward.

You can pray for something to happen. You cannot reverse something that has already happened because God has given us free will. My meaning of prayer here is influencing causes in the spiritual realm so they may physically manifest. We are co-creators.

If your will is not aligned with the will of God, your prayer will not  happen the way you expect. See the model of the Lord's prayer in Mathew 6:13-19. There is nothing there about amputees or attempting to influence past events.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 11, 2013, 12:09:25 PM
As this is my first post in this forum, please forgive me and re-direct as appropriate if I stray.

First off, I want to state that I am a critical thinking Born Again Christian.

So with that, here is my attempt to answer the question:
God does not heal amputees because He does not work in reverse. He is not all powerful because He gave us free will.

Prayer only works going forward.

There are several difficulties with the premise of this question. First, what is the perception of God that is being referred to here? I don't think there is agreement on that and so every respondent first creates a mental model (or perception) of the God about whom they are about to opine before proceeding. The difficulty is that there are several fundamental issues of philosophy that have taken many great thinkers to task in the past that are not agreed upon/resolved as a basis of the question. e.g. what is real? what exists? and by even entertaining a discussion about the concept of God, God has been created and therefore exists?

So perhaps, if it was clearer what the perception of God that was intended in the question, I may be able to give a better answer.

Zele,
First let me say, Welcome to the forum! We are glad you are here and hope to have some stimulating and (perhaps) life changing discussions. Now, I don't mean to sound pessimistic straight off but if you wind up staying here for any length of time I will be surprised (as most theists who come here wind up being challenged too greatly, can't take it, and leave).

With that said, let me address your response. First, do you not think God is all powerful (as the bible indicates)? If you can, please describe what you mean when you use that term. Ultimately, as far as I'm concerned, that term doesn't actually refer to anything. Thus, when we ask the question "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" we are asking why the God most theists say they believe in will not act in this manner of healing. We could of course easily get into the billions of different interpretations/spin that theists attempt with the bible, in order to get around it's passages that indicate Christians/God should be healing amputees everywhere, but the reality is that the question we are asking pertains to a deity that supposedly acts in the real world (i.e. - does stuff). Does your God do stuff in the real world, or are you more of a deist? If you could clarify what kind of God you personally think is real that might help.

Second,  what do you mean by "He does not work in reverse" and "prayer only works going forward"? It sounds to me as if you are using definitions of terms that would make the results of those definitions indistinguishable from their non-existence (i.e. - "answered prayer" can't be distinguished from rare events).

Lastly, are you making the argument here that God won't heal amputees b/c if he did he would be violating our freewill? If so, this argument is completely false, and here's why. Did Satan have freewill? How about Adam and Eve? How about all of the angels in heaven that supposedly knew God directly and still chose to "fall"? Also, what about the certain disciples (like Judas etc) who supposedly saw God/Jesus do miracles directly and still didn't believe?? According to the bible itself, God interacting directly with his creation does not, in any way, violate freewill. So this argument just doesn't work. God, through you (his disciple) should be healing amputees daily, and since we don't see that happening (among many other reasons) we have good reason to doubt this alleged being is real (just like you likely have good reason to doubt all the other alleged gods throughout history).

However, much of this presumes we are discussing (roughly) the same definition of "God". So, in order for us to get onto the same page, let's start there. What is your definition of God? Does it come from the bible?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 11, 2013, 12:10:32 PM
Hi zele,

You will be able to more effectively communicate with us if you learn to use the quote function.  Please see the link at the bottom of my post, in my sig, to go to the quoting tutorial.

So i re-state my initial position. God is not all powerful and prayer only works going forward.

You can pray for something to happen. You cannot reverse something that has already happened because God has given us free will. My meaning of prayer here is influencing causes in the spiritual realm so they may physically manifest. We are co-creators.

1. you are missing the point.  Many xians believe in "miraculous" cures of various ailments and use that to justify their belief in god.  If you are not one of them, this argument is not for you.

2. everything is in the past.  If you are hungry it is because you did not eat in the past.  According to your reasoning, god would not answer a prayer for food.  If you are sick, you got sick in the past, and praying to get better will not help.

3. free will?  That is addressed in the arguments on the main site.  I suggest you read them so you can make a better argument.

If your will is not aligned with the will of God, your prayer will not  happen the way you expect.

So then prayer is a pointless endeavor, because you are saying god is going to do what god is going to do.  And prayers are not going to change his mind.


Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 11, 2013, 12:42:52 PM
>That being the case, if someone has faith, they should be able to pray for an amputee to get his leg back
You are referring to Mathew 21:22 right? If i suppose that you are then, this is easily answered with

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." - It therefore simply means you do not believe and that is why the amputees leg does not grow back. I suspect that does not really satisfy as we are into something that is not decidable. And if I say yes,  it means no one believes as there is no recorded history of the legs ever growing back - then you say?? Whilst this might be logical, it is not really credulous.

Are you familiar with the fallacy called No True Scotsman? I'm not accusing you of it (yet, lol) but I am throw up a red warning flag b/c I see it coming here. First, many of us here were believers in Jesus for many years. I was a born-again Christian for nearly 20 years. I believed STRONGLY in divine healing, and not once did I ever see anything close to supernatural or miraculous. Back in 2000-2001 my good friend Sean (a very devout Christian) was diagnosed with Leukemia. Many, many different people from different churches prayed and believed for a miracle. Nope. He suffered and died. As far as I'm concerned this is a knock down argument against Christianities claim to miracles/Yahweh (all believed and he was NOT healed). Of course, I've heard every rationalization attempt regarding "God's will" and/or "true belief" but this directly contradicts the supposed words of Jesus regarding anyone who believes.

The main problem many of us here see is that Christians ASSUME the bible is divinely inspired, that it cannot have errors, or that it is infallible - and then go about defending their particular interpretation of it against all critical thought (but they don't do that with other holy books). In other words, they start with their conclusion (as it seems you may have). Now that, is backwards.

Basically, this idea that God heals all who believe winds up being a big game of smoke and mirrors. If someone is healed you say, "It was God!" If they die you say, "He didn't believe" or "It wasn't God's will". What a beautifully terrible way to make your belief system immune from evidence. It's really a built in fallacy. "Whenever things support my presupposition I praise my assumed belief, but when they go against my presupposition I rationalize." Can you see the flaw here?


You can pray for something to happen. You cannot reverse something that has already happened because God has given us free will. My meaning of prayer here is influencing causes in the spiritual realm so they may physically manifest. We are co-creators.

I'm not following you here. Please be more specific.

If your will is not aligned with the will of God, your prayer will not  happen the way you expect. See the model of the Lord's prayer in Mathew 6:13-19. There is nothing there about amputees or attempting to influence past events.

According to the bible this isn't true at all. As Screwtape pointed out, a miracle/healing (allegedly from Jesus, an apostle, or otherwise) are ALL affecting what was a past event. Remember when Jesus supposedly healed a blind man? How about when he allegedly rose Lazarus from the grave or when he supposedly healed the woman at the well?

The bigger question here might be, are you (or should we) interpret the supernatural claims of the bible favorably, when we DO NOT do that with any other claimed holy book? It seems you are lowering your standard of evidence for only the bible. Why would you do that?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 11, 2013, 02:01:38 PM
Srewtape, thank you for pointing me to the tutorial. I promise I will improve in time - as you can see I am still a novice.

Quote
Are you familiar with the fallacy called No True Scotsman? I'm not accusing you of it
No, I am not. I was not using that as a serious argument. I will read up about it though.
Quote
everything is in the past.  If you are hungry it is because you did not eat in the past.  According to your reasoning, god would not answer a prayer for food.  If you are sick, you got sick in the past, and praying to get better will not help
I am sure you will agree that there is a future. If not, I have no further case. If you do, then I hope you can see the point about prayer affecting things going forward.

Quote
The main problem many of us here see is that Christians ASSUME the bible is divinely inspired,
Yes it is. But written by humans who are fallible. So whilst the bible contains the truth, it is not incoveivable that there would be human error introduced by the human writer. However, if you truly seek, you will find the truth in there.
Quote
So, in order for us to get onto the same page, let's start there. What is your definition of God? Does it come from the bible?
A very good shot! I think screwtape is already trying to oust me when he says this
Quote
If you are not one of them, this argument is not for you.

Quote
See the model of the Lord's prayer in Mathew 6:13-19. There is nothing there about amputees or attempting to influence past events.

I will be back as I am little rushed now with a more considered response to many of the issues all three of you have raised.

Please bear with me ...
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 11, 2013, 02:08:03 PM
Srewtape, thank you for pointing me to the tutorial. I promise I will improve in time - as you can see I am still a novice.

You are welcome.  Keep working at it.  Next, you might want to learn how to include the name and link to the post you quote. Practice in the test area.

If you do, then I hope you can see the point about prayer affecting things going forward.

Let's say I agree there is a future.  I'm not sure I do.  But for the sake of discussion, let's say there is.  I do not see the point about prayer affecting things going forward.   Please elaborate further.

Please bear with me ...

No problem.  This forum can be overwhelming to new people.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jdawg70 on June 11, 2013, 02:39:42 PM
Yes it is. But written by humans who are fallible. So whilst the bible contains the truth, it is not incoveivable that there would be human error introduced by the human writer. However, if you truly seek, you will find the truth in there.
How do I do this?  How do I determine which claims within the bible are true and which ones are in error?  How do I determine which aspects of the bible are divinely inspired and which ones are in error?

Furthermore...how do I determine that the bible is divinely inspired?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 11, 2013, 06:29:05 PM

How do I determine which claims within the bible are true and which ones are in error?  How do I determine which aspects of the bible are divinely inspired and which ones are in error?

Furthermore...how do I determine that the bible is divinely inspired?
By Faith. Hebrews 11:1-3 - And I quote this fully aware of the strawman fallacy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

I take it that you are asking these questions in good faith with the intention to find out something and not because you have a preconceived answer. It is very easy to ask questions. And I have plenty of my own... but not yet...

....the same definition of "God". So, in order for us to get onto the same page, let's start there. What is your definition of God? Does it come from the bible?
The God that I believe in is unfathomable as it is not in man's gift to comprehend this mystery. That is why i say this:
My meaning of prayer here is influencing causes in the spiritual realm so they may physically manifest. We are co-creators with God.
Can you please give me a specific biblical reference which states that God is all powerful? I don't believe this is sound doctrine as it has no basis in scripture.

... See the model of the Lord's prayer in Mathew 6:13-19. There is nothing there about amputees or attempting to influence past events.
Did you check this out?

And by the way, one other logical problem that i find with the premise is that one cannot logically proof a negative. e.g. you cannot prove to me that the moon is not made of blue cheese. see here for the logic problem with such quests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence#.22You_can.27t_prove_a_negative.22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence#.22You_can.27t_prove_a_negative.22)

So I started by giving a very simple and clear answer. Because you do not believe. That was not acceptable. The truth is, the question as posed is not really seeking a meaningful answer that will satisfy.

Screwtapte, I am not missing the point. The question is posed with a primary aim of supporting the premise you already hold that there are no miracles. Guess what, if you believe there are no miracles, then that is true - because that is your reality. If you are not prepared to consider subjective evidence, then you will not be able to have a meaningful dialogue with someone of faith. That is also their reality.

How about I try the following answer. why doesn't God heal amputees? I don't know - Ask God. Does that statisfy? I suspect not.


Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jdawg70 on June 11, 2013, 07:31:45 PM
By Faith. Hebrews 11:1-3 - And I quote this fully aware of the strawman fallacy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

I take it that you are asking these questions in good faith with the intention to find out something and not because you have a preconceived answer. It is very easy to ask questions. And I have plenty of my own... but not yet...
Yes, I am asking questions in earnest.  However, I may have some preconceived answers in mind - I've had this conversation a number of times.  The conversations take different paths but have inevitably led to intellectual dead ends for both parties.  In that sense I do have preconceived answers to some questions and follow up questions, but I ask the questions and consider the answers honestly.

In this instance, I'd like some clarity on 'faith'.  What exactly do you mean by that?

Quote
How about I try the following answer. why doesn't God heal amputees? I don't know - Ask God. Does that statisfy? I suspect not.
Every time this kind of answer is given I cringe a bit.  I do not believe that this 'god' entity exists.  It seems pretty damn clear that I am incapable of 'asking god'; either because I sincerely do not know how to do that (I DO NOT THINK THE GOD ENTITY EXISTS), or I am too powerless ('spiritually', intellectually, or otherwise).  You are the ones that know, or at least, think god exists.  You ask.

Edit:
me fail English corrections
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 11, 2013, 08:43:12 PM
Zele, before you make your responses try copying the "quote author=" tag which is enclosed by [these] markers. You should be able to see it when you click "quote" on an individual. That way each person you are quoting knows you are quoting them. As example, here is yours for this quote:

quote author=zele link=topic=23740.msg558087#msg558087 date=1370977298

Again, you must enclose these tags with brackets like this "quote author=text".

Yes it [the bible] is [the word of God]. But written by humans who are fallible. So whilst the bible contains the truth, it is not incoveivable that there would be human error introduced by the human writer. However, if you truly seek, you will find the truth in there.

Again, you need to research the No True Scotsman fallacy because your argument is dangerously close to it. Saying that all who "truly seek" will find the answer actually commits another fallacy as well. It's called Begging the Question. You are ASSUMING your position in advance (namely that the bible is "the word of God"). First, if it has errors...then it is not entirely the word of God! Secondly, how do you know what "truly seeking" is? Again, you are assuming your position in advance and that is illogical, and unsound.

How do you know the bible is 'the word of God'? What gave you this idea? Why did you accept this claim?

Perhaps more importantly, how do you know that "all who seek shall find"?? Do you claim to know this simply because your bible says so? If so, this is called Circular Reasoning, and it is also illogical. Just because a book (any book) says "Seek the truth and you will find it here" doesn't make it true. You must critically examine such claims (from any source) - not just accept it based on gullibility/credulity.

Quote
[median] So, in order for us to get onto the same page, let's start there. What is your definition of God? Does it come from the bible?

A very good shot! I think screwtape is already trying to oust me when he says this

If you are not one of them, this argument is not for you.

Uh, I don't know what you mean by "good shot!" sir. I was simply asking what you mean when you are using the term "God".

See the model of the Lord's prayer in Mathew 6:13-19. There is nothing there about amputees or attempting to influence past events.

Quoting just one passage isn't going to cut it. Read Mark ch 16 and John ch 14, for starters. Jesus (supposedly he said this) quite clearly states that those of his disciples who believe in him... WILL DO MIRACLES. He even goes so far as to say that he will do anything for him that asks in his name. He also says, in Mark 16, "these signs shall follow them that believe" - just after telling his 12 disciples to preach the gospel everywhere.

It is the all too common cherry picking of bible verses that makes your argument so weak. Of course, I know this because I saw it happening a ton when I was a Christian and a "defender of the faith", and I know very well why Christians do it - namely because if you had to admit the bible clearly teaches that these miracles should in fact be happening today (right now), then the house of cards would come tumbling down and you would also have to admit that your "faith" is in error.

So again, you cannot start with the conclusion that the bible is divine. That is irrational, and arbitrary, and it does nothing to help us separate fact from fiction. Just like nearly every other religion on the planet (from the past to now) you need to demonstrate how you think you know this ancient set of writings is divine.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2013, 02:44:40 AM
God does not heal amputees because He does not work in reverse. ..... Prayer only works going forward.

You can pray for something to happen. You cannot reverse something that has already happened because God has given us free will. My meaning of prayer here is influencing causes in the spiritual realm so they may physically manifest.

Couple quick questions, zele.

Dos god cure cancer/any other physical ailment?  I presume not, since once yiou start to suffer from something physical, it has "already happened" and cannot then be reversed?

It would perhaps be useful if you could give an example of a miracle that your god could do (not necessarily one you have experienced, just one in potentia), as I am at the moment struggling to think of anything that meets your criteria of "not changing what has already happened". 

For example, one could not pray for "strength", because what has happened in the past has led to us being in a position of not having strength - and therefore cannot be changed.  Surely any change of state going forward will be an alteration or reversal of what has happened in the past....or am I missing something?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 04:49:22 AM
Sorry, Median, why is this still not right?
Zele, before you make your responses try copying the "quote author=" tag which is enclosed by [these] markers. You should be able to see it when you click "quote" on an individual. That way each person you are quoting knows you are quoting them. As example, here is yours for this quote:

quote author=zele link=topic=23740.msg558087#msg558087 date=1370977298

Again, you must enclose these tags with brackets like this "quote author=text".
I thought I was doing that already ... perhaps I need to rehearse my quoting  some more ...


Again, you need to research the No True Scotsman fallacy because your argument is dangerously close to it.
I have. And see the the second section  in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) about A common mistake among people identifying Scotsman fallacies

... You are ASSUMING your position in advance (namely that the bible is "the word of God").
No, that is not my position. My position is that the Bible contains the Word and if you truly seek, you will find it in there. If you are interested in making mischief and proving a point, you will also find it in there.

Please stick to what I say and not what others may have said. I can defend what I say and it cannot be reasonable to expect me to defend what others may have said to you in the past.

First, if it has errors...then it is not entirely the word of God! Secondly, how do you know what "truly seeking" is? Again, you are assuming your position in advance and that is illogical, and unsound.
That is your opinion with which I disagree. Just because you state that something is illogical and unsound to you does not make it so. For the avoidance of doubt, my view is that I have made a hypothesis that God exists and through continuous revelation, in time, more will be revealed. For now I take it on faith.

Uh, I don't know what you mean by "good shot!" sir. I was simply asking what you mean when you are using the term "God".
The God that I believe in is unfathomable as it is not in man's gift to comprehend this mystery.

See the model of the Lord's prayer in Mathew 6:13-19. There is nothing there about amputees or attempting to influence past events.

Quoting just one passage isn't going to cut it.
I take it you don't like that one. I think you may be confusing 2 things. How to pray and the power to work miracles. These are 2 separate things. The fact that the central premise of this discussion considers the 2 as the same is a matter for you. What I want you to see clearly is that prayer and DOING MIRACLES are separate. Can we agree on that before I proceed?

It is the all too common cherry picking of bible verses that makes your argument so weak.
So you can cherry pick, but I can't? That is absurd.

Of course, I know this because I saw it happening a ton when I was a Christian and a "defender of the faith", and I know very well why Christians do it - namely because if you had to admit the bible clearly teaches that these miracles should in fact be happening today (right now), then the house of cards would come tumbling down and you would also have to admit that your "faith" is in error.
The problem I find with this line of thinking is that you seem to think that a miracle belongs in a special category such as healing amputees. I have a much wider domain of miracles. e.g. The fact that I am awake today and typing this message is a miracle. If you limit your thinking to define a miracle as narrowly as those you are trying so hard to enlighten, then you are in danger of ending up with a closed mind. I am here because I have faith that you are all open minded - right?

And as to 'Faith in error' ? That is another absurdity. Faith by definition is subjective. It can therefore not be in error. It is your opinion vs mine. So can we drop that as that is an intellectual blind alley?

Couple quick questions, zele.

Dos god cure cancer/any other physical ailment?  I presume not, since once yiou start to suffer from something physical, it has "already happened" and cannot then be reversed?
Yes. God works his miracles through men(please read human going forward). Just bear with Him, in time, genetic engineering might get us to understand Epigenesis a bit more and maybe get our future amputees to grow their limbs.

It would perhaps be useful if you could give an example of a miracle that your god could do (not necessarily one you have experienced, just one in potentia), as I am at the moment struggling to think of anything that meets your criteria of "not changing what has already happened".
Insert stem cells at the end of the limb of an amputee to reproduce just the right epigenetic magic required to grow a limb. You have to be a little patient though. Earthworms already exhibit this genetic technology.

For example, one could not pray for "strength", because what has happened in the past has led to us being in a position of not having strength - and therefore cannot be changed.  Surely any change of state going forward will be an alteration or reversal of what has happened in the past....or am I missing something?
Possibly not missing something, but let me state this again: Prayer is influencing something in the spiritual realm so that it may physically manifest. We are co-creators. We have free will to choose, but have no choice in determining the consequences. I am aware that this may already be veering into a discussion on cause and effect and I have read your discussion thread rules that stipulate that one should stick the topic of discussion at hand.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2013, 04:55:13 AM
Couple quick questions, zele.

Dos god cure cancer/any other physical ailment?  I presume not, since once yiou start to suffer from something physical, it has "already happened" and cannot then be reversed?
Yes. God works his miracles through men(please read human going forward). Just bear with Him, in time, genetic engineering might get us to understand Epigenesis a bit more and maybe get our future amputees to grow their limbs.

Sorry, but you've completely missed my point, it seems.  You are saying that your god does NOT intervene to answer prayers to heal cancerous tumours, blindness, et al, is that correct?  Never intervenes directly in the world to heal anyone, have I got that right?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 05:28:44 AM
Couple quick questions, zele.

Dos god cure cancer/any other physical ailment?  I presume not, since once yiou start to suffer from something physical, it has "already happened" and cannot then be reversed?
Yes. God works his miracles through men(please read human going forward). Just bear with Him, in time, genetic engineering might get us to understand Epigenesis a bit more and maybe get our future amputees to grow their limbs.

Sorry, but you've completely missed my point, it seems.  You are saying that your god does NOT intervene to answer prayers to heal cancerous tumours, blindness, et al, is that correct?  Never intervenes directly in the world to heal anyone, have I got that right?
Or perhaps you've completely missed mine. God works His miracles through men. I thought this was already established. Or should I quote scripture to show that He works miracles through men? Where do you get the idea that God directly intervenes to make miracles without employing humans? That is false doctrine that is not based on scripture.

There are many strawmen that have been set up just to be taken down. First that God is all powerful. I asked for scriptural basis for this and I am still waiting. Now a second strawman - That God works miracles directly without employing humans - again, scriptural basis please as this is yet another false doctrine.

Please think carefully about what I write. I know there is already a lot of baggage from discussions with BA christians in the past. That is why I am urging you to challenge me to defend what I am saying - not some preconceived idea you may already habour about BA christians.

Can you agree with me that prayer and power to perform miracles are separate? At least to this BA christian?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 12, 2013, 05:37:42 AM
... I asked for scriptural basis for this and I am still waiting. Now a second strawman - That God works miracles directly without employing humans - again, scriptural basis please as this is yet another false doctrine.


Lets start a the beginning with this one

Genisis 1
Quote
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

Would this qualify as a miracle?

edit cant spell :P
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 06:08:59 AM
Can you please state whether you agree with my previous positions on my perception of God and all the other positions I have already laid out?

That way I will not have to continuously lay a foundation for my replies.

And please scriptural basis for what I requested. We need to have a common basis for discussion otherwise we risk talking at cross-purposes.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 12, 2013, 06:17:29 AM
Your position appears to be that the bible is purely subjective and can be interpreted at will.
In reality what you are saying is that even if I do quote scripture which argues my point you can refute it by saying "well that's your interpretation and you're trying to cause mischief"

Here is an example of Joshua 10 where it appears to me that the bible is saying something was asked for and it happened and it was miraculous and not done via man.

Quote
12 Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,  “O sun, stand still at Gibeon,  And O moon in the valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,  Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies.  Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14 There was no day like that before it or after it, when the LORD listened to the voice of a man; for the LORD fought for Israel.


Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jetson on June 12, 2013, 06:40:07 AM
As this is my first post in this forum, please forgive me and re-direct as appropriate if I stray.

First off, I want to state that I am a critical thinking Born Again Christian.

So with that, here is my attempt to answer the question:
God does not heal amputees because He does not work in reverse. He is not all powerful because He gave us free will.

Prayer only works going forward.

There are several difficulties with the premise of this question. First, what is the perception of God that is being referred to here? I don't think there is agreement on that and so every respondent first creates a mental model (or perception) of the God about whom they are about to opine before proceeding. The difficulty is that there are several fundamental issues of philosophy that have taken many great thinkers to task in the past that are not agreed upon/resolved as a basis of the question. e.g. what is real? what exists? and by even entertaining a discussion about the concept of God, God has been created and therefore exists?

So perhaps, if it was clearer what the perception of God that was intended in the question, I may be able to give a better answer.

You are making a bold statement that has not been supported by any evidence whatsoever.  YHWH, a character in the pages of the Bible, does not work in reverse.  Please, show that YHWH is an actual god, and then show clearly how you know that this "god" does not work in reverse.  Maybe you can start by explaining the attributes of this god, with some citations that support it.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 06:43:26 AM
Your position appears to be that the bible is purely subjective and can be interpreted at will.
In reality what you are saying is that even if I do quote scripture which argues my point you can refute it by saying "well that's your interpretation and you're trying to cause mischief"
Wrong. Please review my positions again. And I think part of the forum rules say you may not misrepresent someone's views.

Here is an example of Joshua 10 where it appears to me that the bible is saying something was asked for and it happened and it was miraculous and not done via man.
Do you consider this the same as the class of miracle of the subject about which we are discussing? healing miracles? I don't see it so. Please find me an example of miraculous healing in the bible where God does not employ a human.

Quote
12 Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,  “O sun, stand still at Gibeon,  And O moon in the valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,  Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies.  Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14 There was no day like that before it or after it, when the LORD listened to the voice of a man; for the LORD fought for Israel.

Again, please state whether you agree with my other positions. We will not get too far unless you tell me whether you agree/disagree and why? Please do not regurgitate to me views that you harbour from the past about others. Stick to mine - I have my work cut out to defend those.

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2013, 06:43:31 AM
Sorry, but you've completely missed my point, it seems.  You are saying that your god does NOT intervene to answer prayers to heal cancerous tumours, blindness, et al, is that correct?  Never intervenes directly in the world to heal anyone, have I got that right?
Or perhaps you've completely missed mine. God works His miracles through men. I thought this was already established. Or should I quote scripture to show that He works miracles through men? Where do you get the idea that God directly intervenes to make miracles without employing humans? That is false doctrine that is not based on scripture......Can you agree with me that prayer and power to perform miracles are separate? At least to this BA christian?

Sure.  I can accept that you do not believe your god intervenes directly in the world, does not directly carry our any healings, does not carry out any direct interventions.  Sorry to have to belabour the point but I have yet to find two Christians who agree 100% on what their god actually does, so it pays to be grindingly specific from the get-go.

To that end, can I also confirm that where you say he "works miracles through men", what  exactly are you saying there?  Are you saying that he slowly directs mankind towards the medical advances that cure disease and that that is how any healing miracles occur?  Or are you saying that he "works miracles through men" in a more direct form - for example that a faith healer can instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever as the instrument of your god?

Pretty sure you mean the former, but (like I say) it always pays to make sure!
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 07:06:52 AM

Sure.  I can accept that you do not believe your god intervenes directly in the world, does not directly carry our any healings, does not carry out any direct interventions.  Sorry to have to belabour the point but I have yet to find two Christians who agree 100% on what their god actually does, so it pays to be grindingly specific from the get-go.
And I am yet to find 2 non believers who agree on the perception of the God whose existence they are actually refuting. I suggest that is a moot point.

To that end, can I also confirm that where you say he "works miracles through men", what  exactly are you saying there?
First of all according to scripture, it is not in man's gift to comprehend God's mind. And I realize 'Mind' is loaded. But let's not get distracted. For now let's agree with the existence of minds otherwise the whole discussion can not go anywhere. (and there are some who don't accept that minds exist). But let's take it they do.

So if I cannot comprehend the mind of God, all I can do is use my own mind to try and figure out how He works miracles through men. See here for a definition of a miracle http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle?s=t (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle?s=t). I go with 3.

And by the way, do you accept that the absence of evidence is not evidence of non-existence?

... Pretty sure you mean the former, but (like I say) it always pays to make sure!
Somewhat, but not quite. Can you please get over this 'your god' thing? I still do not have confirmation of whether you accept my perception of God. I suspect what you have in mind when referring to 'your god' above is not what I stated.

If you accept that we are co-creators with God and that He is not all powerful, perhaps you will be able to understand more what I mean when I say God works His miracles through men. You will note (or perhaps not) that so far I have left out timing. Deliberately so - as it is another grand topic altogether.

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 12, 2013, 07:11:57 AM
Wrong. Please review my positions again. And I think part of the forum rules say you may not misrepresent someone's views.

Apologies for that, I'm not entirely clear on your position.

Do you consider this the same as the class of miracle of the subject about which we are discussing? healing miracles? I don't see it so. Please find me an example of miraculous healing in the bible where God does not employ a human.

I don't really see a difference in class of miracle. I was responding to you saying that god does not directly intervene.
however re healing;

Exodus 15:26

He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

Psalm 107:19-21

Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress.  He sent forth his word and healed them; he rescued them from the grave.  Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men

Exodus 23:25

Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you,

Psalm 30:2

O LORD my God, I called to you for help and you healed me.

Psalm 41:2-3

The LORD will protect him and preserve his life; he will bless him in the land and not surrender him to the desire of his foes.  The LORD will sustain him on his sickbed and restore him from his bed of illness...

etc

Do you know of anywhere where it says that god only heals through man?
Again, please state whether you agree with my other positions. We will not get too far unless you tell me whether you agree/disagree and why? Please do not regurgitate to me views that you harbour from the past about others. Stick to mine - I have my work cut out to defend those.
No I don't  agree with you. I think humans through the advancement of science can heal the sick. The reason why I think this is that the advancement of science is well documented and demonstrable. Knowledge of processes can provide explanations for all that we have achieved. There is no reason to attribute human advancement to anything other than endeavor.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2013, 08:16:13 AM
... Pretty sure you mean the former, but (like I say) it always pays to make sure!
Somewhat, but not quite. Can you please get over this 'your god' thing? I still do not have confirmation of whether you accept my perception of God. I suspect what you have in mind when referring to 'your god' above is not what I stated.

If you accept that we are co-creators with God and that He is not all powerful, perhaps you will be able to understand more what I mean when I say God works His miracles through men. You will note (or perhaps not) that so far I have left out timing. Deliberately so - as it is another grand topic altogether.

Hmm.  Way to avoid answering my questions there Zele.  Perhaps I'm not being clear, I'm not sure.

First off, the "your god" thing.  It IS "your god", as it certainly is not mine.  Nor, from what I've seen, is it a god that would be accepted by 100% of self-described Christians.  Its not my intention to suggest that you have made your god up in any way, just that this is "your understanding/description of god".

But back to the specific question, which so far as I can tell you did not answer - at least not so far as I was able to understand.

Are you saying that he slowly directs mankind towards the medical advances that cure disease and that that is how any healing miracles occur? 
Or are you saying that he "works miracles through men" in a more direct form - for example that a faith healer can instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever as the instrument of your god?
Or both?  Because at the moment I honestly have no idea which (if either) of these is your position.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 08:29:04 AM
Screwtapte, I am not missing the point. The question is posed with a primary aim of supporting the premise you already hold that there are no miracles.

I still think you are missing the point, but I could be wrong.  The premise is that some xians believe in miracles whereby people with certain afflictions are spontaneously healed by god, not medical science.  Furthermore, we all agree - atheists and xians alike - there are some kinds of miracles we never see.  That begs for an explanation and only certain conclusions are possible.

You are still working on defining "miracles" with Anfauglir, but from I've seen so far, it looks like you do not fit the standard example of that kind of xian.  So the question of wwgha is not germane to you.

Guess what, if you believe there are no miracles, then that is true - because that is your reality.

I disagree.  Miraculous healings arer not a subjective part of reality.  Either they happen or they do not.  It is either a part of everyone's reality, or no one's.  I do not accept the idea that it is true for me or you but not other people.

If you are not prepared to consider subjective evidence, then you will not be able to have a meaningful dialogue with someone of faith. That is also their reality.

I am not willing to consider personal, subjective evidence because it is not evidence of external reality.  This is what very smart people discovered centuries (millenia?) ago.  And so the scientific method was born.  It is how we tell what is true from what is not.  It is how we filter out our biases and preferences. 

And I could also turn that around and say if religious people are not willing to honestly deal in evidence and what is real, then they should understand rational people will not take them seriously.


How about I try the following answer. why doesn't God heal amputees? I don't know - Ask God. Does that statisfy? I suspect not.

You are right, it does not satisfy.  But it also points to a big, big problem for religious people.  Why is asking god not satisfying?

And just as a general statement and to re-iterate one of Anfauglir's points, you are using a lot of loaded language which may seem clear to you but is rather opaque to us.  When you say "god works miracles through people" or "we are co-creators with god" I honestly have only the vaguest idea of what you mean.  That leaves a lot for me to interpret and a lot of room for error.  For us to have a conversation you must explain these ideas fully. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 08:32:16 AM
Apologies for that, I'm not entirely clear on your position.
No worries. Just tell me what you are unclear about I will explain the best I can.

Do you consider this the same as the class of miracle of the subject about which we are discussing? healing miracles? I don't see it so. Please find me an example of miraculous healing in the bible where God does not employ a human.

I don't really see a difference in class of miracle. I was responding to you saying that god does not directly intervene.
OK then let's agree to disagree. I see a difference. I said God employs humans to achieve healing.

however re healing;

Exodus 15:26 ...
Psalm 107:19-21 ...
Exodus 23:25 ...
Psalm 30:2 ...
Psalm 41:2-3 ...
etc
What all these verses have in common is that they lack the kind of physical faith healing that the premise of this discussion is challenging. If I have to engage on all these, then we will start delving into a discussion about what healing actually means in these verses. Shall we just stick with amputee type healing for now?

Do you know of anywhere where it says that god only heals through man?
Again, please carefully quote what I state. God employs men to achieve healing. This is not the same as God only heals through men. For what it's worth, the healing that I am talking about here is those of the Luke 9:1 vintage.
Quote
9 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Again, please state whether you agree with my other positions. We will not get too far unless you tell me whether you agree/disagree and why? Please do not regurgitate to me views that you harbour from the past about others. Stick to mine - I have my work cut out to defend those.
No I don't  agree with you. I think humans through the advancement of science can heal the sick. The reason why I think this is that the advancement of science is well documented and demonstrable. Knowledge of processes can provide explanations for all that we have achieved. There is no reason to attribute human advancement to anything other than endeavor.
I did not expect you to agree. What I want you to see is that the opinion you hold that all BA Christians are 'delusional' because they have faith and not capable of critical thought is not sound. I expect that you are a healthy skeptic - right? When you talk about science being demonstrable, are you referring just to a physical demonstration?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 08:51:31 AM
Are you saying that he slowly directs mankind towards the medical advances that cure disease and that that is how any healing miracles occur? 
Or are you saying that he "works miracles through men" in a more direct form - for example that a faith healer can instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever as the instrument of your god?
Or both?  Because at the moment I honestly have no idea which (if either) of these is your position.
Let me try this:
Are you saying that he slowly directs mankind towards the medical advances that cure disease and that that is how any some healing miracles occur
That approximates to my position. I hope you can see in there the whole 'co-creator' thing I am on about.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2013, 08:55:36 AM
Are you saying that he slowly directs mankind towards the medical advances that cure disease and that that is how any healing miracles occur? 
Or are you saying that he "works miracles through men" in a more direct form - for example that a faith healer can instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever as the instrument of your god?
Or both?  Because at the moment I honestly have no idea which (if either) of these is your position.
Let me try this:
Are you saying that he slowly directs mankind towards the medical advances that cure disease and that that is how any some healing miracles occur

Some, eh?  And the others?  The ones that are NOT the result of direction towards medical advances?  Maybe its me, but you seem singularly loathe to give an unequivocal answer on the subject.

'He sometimes "works miracles through men" in a more direct form, for example a faith healer instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever' - yes or no?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 12, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Apologies for that, I'm not entirely clear on your position.
No worries. Just tell me what you are unclear about I will explain the best I can.

Ok, I'll ask for clarification below.

Do you consider this the same as the class of miracle of the subject about which we are discussing? healing miracles? I don't see it so. Please find me an example of miraculous healing in the bible where God does not employ a human.

I don't really see a difference in class of miracle. I was responding to you saying that god does not directly intervene.
OK then let's agree to disagree. I see a difference. I said God employs humans to achieve healing.

You also said that god does not directly intervene. My question about this is that as god does directly intervene (stopping the sun, the parting red sea etc) why is this not the case for healing?

however re healing;

Exodus 15:26 ...
Psalm 107:19-21 ...
Exodus 23:25 ...
Psalm 30:2 ...
Psalm 41:2-3 ...
etc
What all these verses have in common is that they lack the kind of physical faith healing that the premise of this discussion is challenging. If I have to engage on all these, then we will start delving into a discussion about what healing actually means in these verses. Shall we just stick with amputee type healing for now?

Yes. Why is the physical healing that happens in line with the medical technologies of the time of the healing. i.e. heart transplants have only been possible since we discovered the method to perform that type of healing.

Do you know of anywhere where it says that god only heals through man?
Again, please carefully quote what I state. God employs men to achieve healing. This is not the same as God only heals through men. For what it's worth, the healing that I am talking about here is those of the Luke 9:1 vintage.
Quote
9 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Are you saying here that man only heals by virtue of god?

Being a pedant, luke 9 says that they have the power to heal, not that they actually do.


Again, please state whether you agree with my other positions. We will not get too far unless you tell me whether you agree/disagree and why? Please do not regurgitate to me views that you harbour from the past about others. Stick to mine - I have my work cut out to defend those.
No I don't  agree with you. I think humans through the advancement of science can heal the sick. The reason why I think this is that the advancement of science is well documented and demonstrable. Knowledge of processes can provide explanations for all that we have achieved. There is no reason to attribute human advancement to anything other than endeavor.
I did not expect you to agree. What I want you to see is that the opinion you hold that all BA Christians are 'delusional' because they have faith and not capable of critical thought is not sound. I expect that you are a healthy skeptic - right? When you talk about science being demonstrable, are you referring just to a physical demonstration?
I did not say that BA Christians are not capable of critical thought. In fact I haven't mentioned BA Christians until now. I do think belief in god is flawed. This is because I can see no evidence of supernatural involvement in our existence.
My scepticism is in good health. This is why i am an atheist.
Yes, I am referring to things that can be demonstrated within our sphere of experience. This does not mean that i need to see it to believe it. For example ,if something can be demonstrated mathematically I am likely to believe it even though “number” is an abstract concept
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 09:36:57 AM
....
'He sometimes "works miracles through men" in a more direct form, for example a faith healer instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever' - yes or no?
Yes. And that should not be surprising to you because of this http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm)  The miracle of Jeanna Giese. The plausible explanation given there is coincidence. What co-coincided? Are you at least admitting that something happened here that the medical community can not yet explain?

If that is the case, and if I choose to accept by faith that this is an act of God then I am suddenly delusional? I am curious to hear what you think co-coincided to heal the girl.

Most non-believers liberally comfortably use - nature - it is natural etc. Can you enlighten me what you mean when you utter this term?

As I have already mentioned, there are key strawmen that are set up in the book e.g God is all powerful - without any scriptural basis - and then further use that to defend various other positions. If we are to engage in genuine intellectual honesty, we need to establish an agreed foundation for having the discussions. And that can be quite daunting.

My attraction to this site derives from the fact that, some how or other, non believers think all BA  christian are not capable of critical thought. If I am wrong about that assertion, then I apologise. If my suspicions are right, then I totally reject this as I believe there is no reason why reason and faith cannot co-exist.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 09:49:25 AM
The miracle of Jeanna Giese. The plausible explanation given there is coincidence. What co-coincided? Are you at least admitting that something happened here that the medical community can not yet explain?

When is a miracle not a miracle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_protocol
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 10:00:08 AM
I did not say that BA Christians are not capable of critical thought. In fact I haven't mentioned BA Christians until now.
I am sorry you are right. You did not actually say that.

I do think belief in god is flawed.
Again, you cannot have a flawed belief. Just like you cannot have 'Error in faith'. These things are inherently subjective.

This is because I can see no evidence of supernatural involvement in our existence.
Why is the 'seeing' the evidence of paramount importance? what about experiencing? what about feeling?

My scepticism is in good health. This is why i am an atheist.
Yes, I am referring to things that can be demonstrated within our sphere of experience. This does not mean that i need to see it to believe it. For example ,if something can be demonstrated mathematically I am likely to believe it even though “number” is an abstract concept
Do you know that some people cannot relate to mathematics? Are they delusional? Does that mean that Mathematics as we know it does not exist? So as you can see, we have an imaginary reality in mathematics. Or can you not see that?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 12, 2013, 10:14:16 AM
I do think belief in god is flawed.
Again, you cannot have a flawed belief. Just like you cannot have 'Error in faith'. These things are inherently subjective.

You can believe in something that is not true. This does not make it real. i.e. Santa

This is because I can see no evidence of supernatural involvement in our existence.
Why is the 'seeing' the evidence of paramount importance? what about experiencing? what about feeling?

Ok. As I have said below; I am referring to things that can be demonstrated within our sphere of experience.

My scepticism is in good health. This is why i am an atheist.
Yes, I am referring to things that can be demonstrated within our sphere of experience. This does not mean that i need to see it to believe it. For example ,if something can be demonstrated mathematically I am likely to believe it even though “number” is an abstract concept
Do you know that some people cannot relate to mathematics? Are they delusional? Does that mean that Mathematics as we know it does not exist? So as you can see, we have an imaginary reality in mathematics. Or can you not see that?

We do not have an imaginary reality in mathematics. We have an abstract reality. I'll pre-empt you here, the difference between maths and god is maths is a concept which is an explanation rather than a cause.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 10:56:05 AM
You can believe in something that is not true. This does not make it real. i.e. Santa
Correct. And your point is?

We do not have an imaginary reality in mathematics. We have an abstract reality. I'll pre-empt you here, the difference between maths and god is maths is a concept which is an explanation rather than a cause.
Again, I don't think we have an agreement on the God concept. How can you make a comparison with something that you profess does not exist? I was referring to imaginary reality from the perspective of those who cannot relate to mathematics.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 12, 2013, 11:15:28 AM
You can believe in something that is not true. This does not make it real. i.e. Santa
Correct. And your point is?

I do think belief in god is flawed.

We do not have an imaginary reality in mathematics. We have an abstract reality. I'll pre-empt you here, the difference between maths and god is maths is a concept which is an explanation rather than a cause.
Again, I don't think we have an agreement on the God concept. How can you make a comparison with something that you profess does not exist?
Quite easily. As I say above. explanation and cause.

Indulge me :)

I have object A and object B. I place them both in water. Object A floats. Object B sinks.
Can you explain, without referring to maths, why object A floats and object B sinks?

Person A has an illness. Person A recovers.
Can you explain, without referring to divinity, why person A recovers?
 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 11:19:00 AM
The miracle of Jeanna Giese. The plausible explanation given there is coincidence. What co-coincided? Are you at least admitting that something happened here that the medical community can not yet explain?

When is a miracle not a miracle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_protocol
I take it we are using my definition of a miracle, right? If so then I see a miracle.

By the way are you familiar with energy fields and their possible effects on healing? Are you also aware that some individuals are not subject to hypnotherapy and/or auto-suggestion? The fact that these techniques do not yet work 100%, does that invalidate them?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 11:28:51 AM
I do think belief in god is flawed.
Which God? The one that I said is not in man's gift to fathom? or another one that you have fashioned in your imagination and not willing to let go of?

I have object A and object B. I place them both in water. Object A floats. Object B sinks.
Can you explain, without referring to maths, why object A floats and object B sinks?
Relative Density.

Person A has an illness. Person A recovers.
Can you explain, without referring to divinity, why person A recovers?
Person A chooses to recover and co-operates with the recovery process.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 12, 2013, 11:46:01 AM
I do think belief in god is flawed.
Which God? The one that I said is not in man's gift to fathom? or another one that you have fashioned in your imagination and not willing to let go of?
any god. which i why i used a small G. I don't have any gods in my imagination that I imagine to be real.

I have object A and object B. I place them both in water. Object A floats. Object B sinks.
Can you explain, without referring to maths, why object A floats and object B sinks?
Relative Density.
density is a mathematical property.

Person A has an illness. Person A recovers.
Can you explain, without referring to divinity, why person A recovers?
Person A chooses to recover and co-operates with the recovery process.

Therefore it is possible to recover without divine aid?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 11:47:06 AM
I take it we are using my definition of a miracle, right? If so then I see a miracle.

I'm still not sure what your definition is.   It appears to be anything you want to call a miracle.  The lightbulb, small pox vaccination, birth (specifically human), birds chirping, kittens, hula hoops, gin, glory holes.  But, as I said, I'm not sure, so all of that could be wrong.

And the question stands, what's not a miracle?


By the way are you familiar with energy fields and their possible effects on healing?

No, I'm not familiar with energy fields.  What is an "energy field"?  I'm a mechanical engineer, so I am versed in energy.  But I've no recollection of any existence of "energy fields" outside of science fiction.   Do you mean electric or magnetic fields?

Are you also aware that some individuals are not subject to hypnotherapy and/or auto-suggestion? The fact that these techniques do not yet work 100%, does that invalidate them?

Sorry. You've completely lost me.  I don't know what you are talking about nor how it relates to the conversation. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 12, 2013, 01:35:52 PM
Hello zele. You said that absence of evidence does not mean that something does not exist. Fair enough, but why believe that something exists if there is no evidence of existence? Do you believe in anything else (besides a god) that has no evidence of existence? Ghosts, Santa's elves, telepathy, esp, alien beings from other planets?
 
What can anyone know about an unfathomable (unknowable, unexplainable) being?  How can you, zele, or anyone else tell whether this being is-- or is not-- all-powerful, or good, or miracle-performing, since this being is unfathomable?

I not trying to be funny (yet) because I really want to know where you are coming from here.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 01:38:42 PM
I take it we are using my definition of a miracle, right? If so then I see a miracle.

I'm still not sure what your definition is.   It appears to be anything you want to call a miracle.  The lightbulb, small pox vaccination, birth (specifically human), birds chirping, kittens, hula hoops, gin, glory holes.  But, as I said, I'm not sure, so all of that could be wrong.
No, incorrect. It is here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle?s=t (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle?s=t) and I said I am going with 3.

And the question stands, what's not a miracle?
A big set. But take your pick from anything that is not in 3 above.

By the way are you familiar with energy fields and their possible effects on healing?

No, I'm not familiar with energy fields.  What is an "energy field"?  I'm a mechanical engineer, so I am versed in energy.  But I've no recollection of any existence of "energy fields" outside of science fiction.   Do you mean electric or magnetic fields?

Are you also aware that some individuals are not subject to hypnotherapy and/or auto-suggestion? The fact that these techniques do not yet work 100%, does that invalidate them?

Sorry. You've completely lost me.  I don't know what you are talking about nor how it relates to the conversation.
This is what I am talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_medicine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_medicine)

After reading that you should see how it relates to the conversation. If not, say so and I will attempt to relate it.



Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 01:46:06 PM
Hello zele. You said that absence of evidence does not mean that something does not exist. Fair enough, but why believe that something exists if there is no evidence of existence? Do you believe in anything else (besides a god) that has no evidence of existence? Ghosts, Santa's elves, telepathy, esp, alien beings from other planets?
 
Yes. Life on other planets.

What can anyone know about an unfathomable (unknowable, unexplainable) being?  How can you, zele, or anyone else tell whether this being is-- or is not-- all-powerful, or good, or miracle-performing, since this being is unfathomable?
I take it you have not yet seen that I have already said the God I believe in is not all powerful. We are co-creators with Him of what we experience.

I not trying to be funny (yet) because I really want to know where you are coming from here.
A little light humour does not hurt.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 01:54:11 PM
any god. which i why i used a small G. I don't have any gods in my imagination that I imagine to be real.
I am talking about the ones you imagine to be unreal.

Therefore it is possible to recover without divine aid?
Person A chooses to recover and co-operates with the recovery process. What is in this statement that supposes the preclusion of divine aid?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 02:04:37 PM
I'm still not sure what your definition is.   It appears to be anything you want to call a miracle.  The lightbulb, small pox vaccination, birth (specifically human), birds chirping, kittens, hula hoops, gin, glory holes.  But, as I said, I'm not sure, so all of that could be wrong.
No, incorrect. It is here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle?s=t (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle?s=t) and I said I am going with 3.

So, something considered to be a marvel or a wonder.  That's pretty subjective.  I think all of the above could count.  I'm not sure how god working through humans had anything to do with any of those things, though (particularly the birds and kittens). 

Was it god that planted the idea for an electric light bulbs in the head of Humphry Davy?  If so, why did he not plant the idea of an LED?  Or of a yet to be discovered light source?  Or do you consider all of the above to not quite make the cut?

I think your definition is not a very good one. Not because I dislike it.  I just find it to be too vague and ambiguous to be useful.  It allows you (or me) to call anything a miracle if you (or I) find it sufficiently marvelous. 

This is what I am talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_medicine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_medicine)

oh my goodness. 

I am afraid I am missing the point here.

To get back to rabid Giese girl, you said you saw a miracle there.  Could you please say in what capacity was god involved, specifically? 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 12, 2013, 02:12:42 PM
Back atcha, zele, I think you are an Aussie or a Brit, 'cause you can't spell "humor". And you say "whilst". But no worries.

If a miracle is anything anyone finds wonderful (a good plate of barbecue, winning the lotto, the Grand Canyon, the Taj Mahal, a newborn baby, a coupon for a free pedicure, Thor eating pop-tarts in my kitchen) why the need to invoke anything supernatural? Well, except for the Thor part--substitute Chris Hemsworth.

The article on energy medicine said that it is bogus and the province of dupes and charlatans. At least that is what was found when people actually did studies of it. So, not sure why you linked to it.

I agree that there is probably life on other planets--but we have evidence for that. We live on a planet and there is life on it= evidence for life on at least one planet.

So you only believe in one god without evidence. Why? And how do you know what powers this god has if it is unfathomable?
BTW I must also be a miracle, since I was bitten by a rabid dog, got shots, and survived. No prayers or gods needed.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 05:11:10 PM
The article on energy medicine said that it is bogus and the province of dupes and charlatans. At least that is what was found when people actually did studies of it. So, not sure why you linked to it.
To show you that the other forms of non-physical treatment were taken seriously enough to be scientifically investigated. I was hoping you will find the section which stated that the evidence is in-conclusive. If you did, then as a healthy skeptic, you should accept the possibility of that being a serious proposition. At least for now.

I agree that there is probably life on other planets--but we have evidence for that. We live on a planet and there is life on it= evidence for life on at least one planet.
Are you being serious? Can we at least agree that there is no evidence for that? What logical thinking leads you to that? The scientific community (and I also believe in science in case you had not figured that out yet), is still looking for material evidence. I have faith that there is Life on another planet.

So you only believe in one god without evidence. Why? And how do you know what powers this god has if it is unfathomable?
I believe in God - without material evidence. you do not accept non-material evidence. I cannot fathom what powers He has. Well beyond what I am able to comprehend.

BTW I must also be a miracle, since I was bitten by a rabid dog, got shots, and survived. No prayers or gods needed.
Yes you are - but my reason for saying this is different to yours. First of all, do you know how many million sperm competed to fertilize the egg that made you? And have you ever thought about the epigentic process that starts with a single cell that ends up as a human? And is that you? Or who are you? did you only become you after you took your first breadth? And are you still you when you take your last breadth? Can you see that you are truly a miracle?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 12, 2013, 05:28:43 PM
I think your definition is not a very good one. Not because I dislike it.  I just find it to be too vague and ambiguous to be useful.  It allows you (or me) to call anything a miracle if you (or I) find it sufficiently marvelous. 
Which one would you have picked from the list? First you were not sure what my definition is. I gave you one and you don't find it useful. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I hope things that marvel you are of much more complexity than hula hoops.



oh my goodness. 

I am afraid I am missing the point here.

To get back to rabid Giese girl, you said you saw a miracle there.  Could you please say in what capacity was god involved, specifically?
As I have said already many times, the god you are referring to here is not what I perceive. I started out by stating this over and over because I was pretty sure this was going to recur many times.

In answer to your question: Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious. Who or what do you think is sustaining your life right now?  Please also be very specific in a way that is helpful and unambiguous.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jdawg70 on June 12, 2013, 05:41:52 PM
As I have said already many times, the god you are referring to here is not what I perceive. I started out by stating this over and over because I was pretty sure this was going to recur many times.

In answer to your question: Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious. Who or what do you think is sustaining your life right now?  Please also be very specific in a way that is helpful and unambiguous.
Body thetans.  Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on June 12, 2013, 05:52:46 PM
Which one would you have picked from the list? First you were not sure what my definition is. I gave you one and you don't find it useful. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I hope things that marvel you are of much more complexity than hula hoops.

Zele, how could he possibly assess whether or not he found your definition useful until after asking you what it was, given that he wasn't sure?  This seems like a pretty normal sequence of question-comment to me.  Your chosen definition, in the context of this discussion, is riddled with problems.  I'll let Screwtape explain those further himself, though.

In answer to your question: Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious.

That is about as vague an answer as one could possibly give.  You could have just said "I don't know", eh?

Who or what do you think is sustaining your life right now?  Please also be very specific in a way that is helpful and unambiguous.

Your question is not specific, whereas Screwtape's was.  Gease was dying of rabies, and so needed something to help combat the rabies in order to stay alive.  Generally we don't need something to keep us alive, beyond the machinery already in our bodies.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: The Gawd on June 12, 2013, 06:34:07 PM
I never understood how people can go for endless pages about a god, telling us everything that it wants and does.......then they say its unfathomable. Do they not see the irony?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 13, 2013, 02:48:16 AM
'He sometimes "works miracles through men" in a more direct form, for example a faith healer instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever' - yes or no?
Yes. And that should not be surprising to you because of this http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm)  The miracle of Jeanna Giese. The plausible explanation given there is coincidence. What co-coincided? Are you at least admitting that something happened here that the medical community can not yet explain?

I haven't even got to that stage yet.  What I'm wondering is whether - given that healings WILL happen - why god and his earthly representatives won't heal amputees.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 03:11:32 AM
That is about as vague an answer as one could possibly give.  You could have just said "I don't know", eh?
OK I am beginning to pick up a pattern here. And here are the clues I am gathering when something I say challenges your mindset.
... It is vague
... I have lost someone
... I am missing the point
... It is not useful

However, non of the simple questions I have asked here has been given a serious answer by any of the non believers. I'll pose it here in another form.

Your question is not specific, whereas Screwtape's was.  Gease was dying of rabies, and so needed something to help combat the rabies in order to stay alive.  Generally we don't need something to keep us alive, beyond the machinery already in our bodies.
Can you specifically tell me what you mean by 'machinery already in our bodies'? and where did the supposed 'machinery' come from?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 03:19:58 AM
I never understood how people can go for endless pages about a god, telling us everything that it wants and does.......then they say its unfathomable. Do they not see the irony?
As I have already said, it would help if you would please keep to challenging my perception of God. The One I believe in is not moved by wants! Please read what I write carefully and if I err I will admit it. Do not ascribe to me something I have not said and expect me to defend it.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 03:31:34 AM

I haven't even got to that stage yet.  What I'm wondering is whether - given that healings WILL happen - why god and his earthly representatives won't heal amputees.
why god and his earthly representatives won't heal amputees. yet ?

Here the evidence from the earthworm and genetic engineering is our hope. We will co-create with Him and in due time, I have faith that future amputees will re-grow their limbs. I am praying for a revelation on epigenesis. I am not praying for the amputated limbs to come back and be rejoined as that is futile.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 03:39:36 AM
Body thetans.  Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious.
Please forgive me, but are you a non-beliver/atheist? not even sure what that means as I don't like labels ... but from this response you venture into the spirit realm. Are you sure you want to go there?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 13, 2013, 03:41:55 AM
To get back to rabid Giese girl, you said you saw a miracle there.  Could you please say in what capacity was god involved, specifically?
In answer to your question: Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious. Who or what do you think is sustaining your life right now?  Please also be very specific in a way that is helpful and unambiguous.

As helpful and unambiguous as your answer was?  Sure, I can do that.  Electro-chemical reactions.  That says as much - or as little - as your answer does.  Probably more, in fact.

But you asked me some questions - here are my answers.

The miracle of Jeanna Giese. The plausible explanation given there is coincidence. What co-coincided? Are you at least admitting that something happened here that the medical community can not yet explain?

Nope.  The medical community has always been positive that rabies is an extremely dangerous disease.  So much so that it is next to impossible to survive it without a particular course of treatment.  But I don't think they have EVER said that it is IMPOSSIBLE to survive it without treatment.  How rabid was the bat?  How much of the disease was transmitted?  How robust was the girl's general constitution?  There are three bell-curve distributions there, and - lucky Jeanna - she came in at the right end of all of them.  It's going to happen to SOMEONE - same as SOMEONE is going to win the lottery.  The coincidence, in this case, is that she had lots of prayers said for her. 

The WWGHA argument - quite rightly - aims to examine this to see if it IS a coincidence.  In effect, it wants to look at all other cases where a person was bitten, was prayed for by Christians, and survived.  Unless and until we can see the results of that study, I can say in response that "it was not the prayers that sustained her, it was the Lucky Magic Socks she was wearing on the day she was bitten.

If that is the case, and if I choose to accept by faith that this is an act of God then I am suddenly delusional?
Not necessarily.  Easily swayed by anecdotes, perhaps.  I have some land to sell you which is worth loads - interested?   ;)

As I have already mentioned, there are key strawmen that are set up in the book e.g God is all powerful - without any scriptural basis - and then further use that to defend various other positions. If we are to engage in genuine intellectual honesty, we need to establish an agreed foundation for having the discussions. And that can be quite daunting.

Very true.  So it would be useful if - in a few paragraphs - you laid out clearly and in one place exactly what it is you believe.  At the moment it seems to be a very hard task to get to the details of your beliefs.  Broad brush, sure - a god that is NOT all powerful, fine.  But what then ARE the constraints on his power?  How could he create everything, and then be so limited afterwards? 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 13, 2013, 03:42:40 AM
any god. which i why i used a small G. I don't have any gods in my imagination that I imagine to be real.
I am talking about the ones you imagine to be unreal.

Therefore it is possible to recover without divine aid?
Person A chooses to recover and co-operates with the recovery process. What is in this statement that supposes the preclusion of divine aid?

What I was trying to get at with the questions is this;

You can have an explanation for an outcome (maths in my example) and it isn't relevant whether you understand the explanation as the outcome will always be the same. You can extrapolate an explanation to come to a conclusion of the cause of the outcome.

Where you assign outcomes to god you have come to a conclusion of a cause and then backfill the explanation to fit the conclusion. This to me is a critical flaw in reasoning.

What you are suggesting is that an outcome can be altered. I do not believe this to be so, i think that outcomes remain the same, it is the explanations that can be altered.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 13, 2013, 03:46:25 AM
What I'm wondering is whether - given that healings WILL happen - why god and his earthly representatives won't heal amputees.
why god and his earthly representatives won't heal amputees. yet ?

Here the evidence from the earthworm and genetic engineering is our hope. We will co-create with Him and in due time, I have faith that future amputees will re-grow their limbs. I am praying for a revelation on epigenesis. I am not praying for the amputated limbs to come back and be rejoined as that is futile.

Sorry zele, that looks like a dodge.  My question there was NOT about the healings that occur due to the gradual acquisition of medical knowledge and scientific advances.  It was about the healing that - you agreed - happened instantaneously by god's representatives on earth.  The faith healers who apparently cure tumours and blindness and rabies, but who have never cured an amputee.  Ever.  Despite - allegedly - having in the past managed instant cures for everything else, before those conditions were fixable medically.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 03:58:53 AM
It was about the healing that - you agreed - happened instantaneously by god's representatives on earth.
Sorry could you please kindly remind me where I did this?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 04:02:38 AM
What you are suggesting is that an outcome can be altered. I do not believe this to be so, i think that outcomes remain the same, it is the explanations that can be altered.
No, quite the opposite. I believe we have some limited capacity as co-creators to influence the future - free will. However, once we choose, we have no capacity to influence the outcome.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 13, 2013, 04:21:41 AM
What you are suggesting is that an outcome can be altered. I do not believe this to be so, i think that outcomes remain the same, it is the explanations that can be altered.
No, quite the opposite. I believe we have some limited capacity as co-creators to influence the future - free will. However, once we choose, we have no capacity to influence the outcome.

I'm not talking about changing the future. I'm saying that something with a known outcome (i.e. dying of rabies if you contract it and have no medical intervention) can not be changed.
Once we have an explanation for an outcome (as in the Giese case) we can alter future outcomes.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 04:44:41 AM
Very true.  So it would be useful if - in a few paragraphs - you laid out clearly and in one place exactly what it is you believe.  At the moment it seems to be a very hard task to get to the details of your beliefs.  Broad brush, sure - a god that is NOT all powerful, fine.  But what then ARE the constraints on his power?  How could he create everything, and then be so limited afterwards?
I will try and limit this to the believes relevant to this topic.
The God that I have in mind is unfathomable but can be experienced in some limited manner. We are a part of Him - hence why we are co-creators. Psalm 82: 6
Quote
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
  John 10:30
Quote
4 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’?

Through continuous prayer, endeavour and faith, more and more of Him is revealed to us by His Spirit. He is moved by Faith. Endeavour is quite important because Faith without works is dead. James 2:14-17
Quote
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I believe that God has put in place a system of laws/principles that govern the universe. He is also subject to those laws/principles. If you seek the Truth about those laws/principles, you will find it. The bible contains The Truth. The Word. And that is the only thing God sets above Himself. His Word (laws/principles) governing the universe.

I hope I have not lost you ...

And now also, a summary of your tenets ? (not sure what a non-believer will call his believes but I'm sure you know what I mean)  please - broad brush
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: The Gawd on June 13, 2013, 05:15:02 AM
Again here we go with the "unfathomable" but then proceeding to tell us about this imaginary being. You really need to think about this zele.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 13, 2013, 05:42:29 AM
It was about the healing that - you agreed - happened instantaneously by god's representatives on earth.
Sorry could you please kindly remind me where I did this?

Sure.

'He sometimes "works miracles through men" in a more direct form, for example a faith healer instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever' - yes or no?[/b]
Yes.

My bold.  Did you mean "no" to that question?

This is why your piecemeal approach to what your god is, and what it can and cannot, does and does not do, is causing problems.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 13, 2013, 05:51:47 AM
I will try and limit this to the believes relevant to this topic.

Thanks zele - let me try to reflect back what you have said.

We cannot understand god.
We can experience the effects of god.
We can create in partnership with god.
God is revealed through prayer.
God reveals himself more to the faithful.
God is bound by physical laws he has put in place.

So for that reason why should NEVER see an instantaneous cure for anything?  Because that would violate law?  But doesn't that fly in the face of the curing of lepers, lame, etc that Christ allegedly did?  And as Gawd also pointed out, if your god IS unfathomable, and we can never fully understand him, how can we have any degree of certainty at all that anything we think we know about him is true?

And now also, a summary of your tenets ? (not sure what a non-believer will call his believes but I'm sure you know what I mean)  please - broad brush

Not worried by the terminology - worldview, perhaps?

There may be a god or gods - but any god that has been clearly defined and that I have examined has proved not to exist, or to be irrelevant.
Any thing that happens, happens as the result of particular physical laws, influenced by random quantum fluctuations (and, incidentally, that there is no "free will" in the sense that we have no control over any choices we make).
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on June 13, 2013, 08:00:04 AM
OK I am beginning to pick up a pattern here. And here are the clues I am gathering when something I say challenges your mindset.
... It is vague
... I have lost someone
... I am missing the point
... It is not useful

However, non of the simple questions I have asked here has been given a serious answer by any of the non believers. I'll pose it here in another form.

Untrue.  I answered as I did because your answer was an attempt to avoid actually answering.  The question Screwtape asked was basically, "how specifically did God sustain her life through this ordeal?" - to which you basically responded, "oh, he sustained her life through this ordeal!"

The problem with your answer has nothing whatsoever to do with differing world-views, atheism, theism, etc.  It's just simply a non-answer.  It's like if I asked how someone cooked dinner, and they said "oh, I cooked it while you were waiting".  That is precisely how much detail you gave - the amount that was already stated by the one asking the question, and thus didn't need to be repeated.

Can you specifically tell me what you mean by 'machinery already in our bodies'? and where did the supposed 'machinery' come from?

Pretty sure it came from her parents and the food she ate.  But that's not my point.  Our bodies function in a certain way - usually they stay alive in that way.  When something interferes with this normal state of affairs, we can point out specifically what is doing it.  Here's an analogous situation:

A car has trouble.  The engine is shot.  Let's compare two questions:

1. What did the mechanic do to get the car working again?

2. What kept the car working beforehand?

The first one is specific, because it addresses a specific problem with the car.  It was malfunctioning.  That's something we can talk about specifically.  For example, we could answer it with "the mechanic replaced the car's engine with a new one that he had in his shop; it was model xyz".  This is a specific answer.

The second question, however, is uselessly general.  A ridiculously large number of things kept the car working before, from the gasoline fuel, to the engine, to the key, to the human keeping it on the road while driving, to the road itself, to the Earth's gravity keeping it on the road, to the sun keeping the Earth's temperature high enough for the car to function...I could go on and on.  So it is impossible to specifically answer the second question.

These are directly parallel to the two questions asked by you and Screwtape.  Asking for a specific answer to yours is in no way comparable to asking for a specic answer to his.  Asking anyway, as you've done, is a transparent attempt to avoid discussing what you're actually proposing happened.  Your evasiveness is an answer in itself - it says "I have no clue what I'm talking about and wish to hide that fact".
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 13, 2013, 08:50:06 AM
Which one would you have picked from the list?

 I would define a miracle as an event whereby a deity intervenes by breaking the known laws of nature.  It would preclude human efforts and it would be unambiguous.  An amputee regrowing limbs could be such an event, if it occurred, provided it did not also coincide with say, an experimental stem cell implant designed to regrow limbs.  So the closest would be definition 1 from your link.

We get an awful lot of xians who come here and say that some guy died in church and they prayed over him and he miraculously cambe back to life.  After a little bit of digging we find out that there was also a team of paramedics performing CPR and using a defibrillator.  Then they praise god, instead of the paramedics.  Idiots.

First you were not sure what my definition is. I gave you one and you don't find it useful.

Yes.  And?  Is there anything wrong with my conclusion?  Am I not entitled to that?

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I hope things that marvel you are of much more complexity than hula hoops.

I find hula hoops fascinating.  I could watch Mrs Screwtape hula hoop for hours, if she'd indulge me.  I adore good gin.  I have also spent a lot of time lately playing with cicadas, which I find to be marvelous.  I am glad I can still find pleasure in simple things.


As I have said already many times, the god you are referring to here is not what I perceive.

I've not referred to a god.  At least, I've tried to not assigned to it any attributes or assumptions other than what you've said.  I'm trying to understand your conception.

In answer to your question: Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious.

Thanks.  That was what I was looking for.  I take it then that your contention is that she - and the other 5 survivors of rabies who have been treated by this technique - would have died if not for divine intervention.  Which is kind of weird to me, because prior to this medical technique, there were 0 instances of divine intervention that allowed rabies victims to survive.   That sounds a lot like the case above with the defibrillator.  Sorry, I do not see the miracle. 

In your conversation with ngfm, I noticed you indicated that she was a miracle.  To me, that leads to the conclusion that all life is a miracle.  If we apply that to the Giese case, the miracle is not here cure, but just  the fact that she was ever even alive in the first place. 

So bringing Giese up as an example really did not serve any purpose to you, because you could have just as easily pointed out anyone.  You could have said "the miracle of Ben Affleck", or "the miracle of Jesse Helms" or "the miracle of John Wayne Gasey".  They are all equally miraculous. 

Who or what do you think is sustaining your life right now?

Nobody.  I don't think life needs "someone" to sustain it.  I am an ever changing collection of matter and chemical reactions, like a wave in an ocean (which also needs no one to sustain it).  Eventually, I too will break upon a beach.


Please also be very specific in a way that is helpful and unambiguous.

No need to be that way.  I am not familiar with your ideas and if we are going to discuss them I'd rather not make bad assumptions or take things for granted.  You should take that as a sign of respect.

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jdawg70 on June 13, 2013, 10:22:03 AM
Body thetans.  Specifically sustaining the life of the girl during the time she was unconscious.
Please forgive me, but are you a non-beliver/atheist? not even sure what that means as I don't like labels ... but from this response you venture into the spirit realm. Are you sure you want to go there?
I consider myself to be an atheist.  For simplification, I use that label to mean that I do not believe that a god entity exists.

My response was a bit of a jab at your request for specificity for an explanation when you failed to provide any specificity in your explanation.  It was meant to elicit a response of the form of "I don't believe that body thetan claim; god was responsible for the girl's sustenance, and I know (or believe) this because <insert explanation for why you know/believe that god was involved in this scenario>".

Insofar as venturing into the spirit realm...the tone of your response seems to indicate that driving the conversation towards the 'spirit realm' would be undesirable/fruitless/not useful/unproductive or somesuch.  If that is correct (again, not sure if it is), then I'm confused by it because you appear to want to drive the conversation towards the 'spirit realm' (god, miracles, etc.).
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 13, 2013, 11:41:17 AM
We are moving into the common theist realm of "god as a sometimes powerful, randomly useful and generally absent d!ckwad".

People suffer and die for thousands of years from simple infections until god finally decides it is time to co-create germ theory and have people teach other people to wash their hands. 

People suffer and die for thousands of years from horrible diseases like smallpox and syphilis, until god decides it is time to co-create vaccinations and penicillin, and have people go around giving them to other people.

And thousands of people (like the children in Afghanistan and other war zones) will continue to suffer and die terribly from having arms and legs blown off--or survive as permanently handicapped people in constant pain-- until god decides it is time to co-create prosthetic limbs and later, genetic treatment to regrow lost limbs. God has already decide that worms and salamanders deserve this ability. But human beings? Not yet.

If there was a person with the knowledge or ability to cure amputees, but who sat on that information indefinitely as children in Afghanistan suffered, just because, we would say:  What a d!ckwad. We would not thank or worship this evil, horrible person. :P
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 13, 2013, 01:40:21 PM
I have. And see the the second section  in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) about A common mistake among people identifying Scotsman fallacies

Once again, I wasn't accusing you of this fallacy but was hearing a precursor.

No, that is not my position. My position is that the Bible contains the Word and if you truly seek, you will find it in there. If you are interested in making mischief and proving a point, you will also find it in there.

"The Word...if you truly seek"?? Are you talking about "the word of God"? Your words here are really vague but if this is what you are saying, then can you demonstrate how you know the bible is "the word of God" or even contains "the word of God"? How did you come to this conclusion? In fact, when was the first time you started believing this?

Regarding "making mischief" I often find it as an easy cop-out for nearly every religious person (who believes THEIR religious text is divine) to encourage others to lower their standard of evidence. I'm sorry, I will not play that game. This reference to "making mischief" is absurd b/c it hints at the presumption that your bible is divine (which hasn't been demonstrated). Why should we think this collection of books is (at all) authored by some supernatural being - just b/c it says so, or b/c someone sold you on the idea of fulfilled prophesy? Science makes predictions about the world all the time (and they come true). Should we call those people divine?

That is your opinion with which I disagree. Just because you state that something is illogical and unsound to you does not make it so. For the avoidance of doubt, my view is that I have made a hypothesis that God exists and through continuous revelation, in time, more will be revealed. For now I take it on faith.

Faith is not a pathway to truth. It is unreliable in helping us separate fact from fiction (and no, I do not accept the assertion that faith is "trusting the evidence"). Faith is believing something, as you are now, when you don't have a good reason to do so (i.e. just "taking it on faith"). It is trusting IN SPITE of the evidence. Why would you do that? Why would you (by your own words) take a mere hypothesis and base your entire life upon it? It sounds to me like you do not (contrary to your words) have just a hypothesis. You have a pre-commitment.

Secondly, if I point out something as illogical in your argument (in this case question begging), denying it just displays intellectual dishonesty. You've already admitted that you have a "hypothesis" and that you are "taking it on faith". That very much is assuming your position in advance. A hypothesis is the beginning of inquiry, NOT the end.

Third, avoidance of doubt? Why would you want to avoid doubting? This sounds very much like credulity.

The God that I believe in is unfathomable as it is not in man's gift to comprehend this mystery.

So you believe in some-thing (or whatever) that is "unfathomable" (i.e. - that you can't think about)? It really sounds like you are contradicting yourself here. How can you believe in something for which you have no idea (i.e. - cannot fathom)? If you couldn't fathom it, why believe in it? Indeed, why base your entire life upon it!

The bible quite clearly looks to contradict this. It points to all sorts of things that are, supposedly, "fathomable" about this alleged Yahweh deity.

I take it you don't like that one. I think you may be confusing 2 things. How to pray and the power to work miracles. These are 2 separate things. The fact that the central premise of this discussion considers the 2 as the same is a matter for you. What I want you to see clearly is that prayer and DOING MIRACLES are separate. Can we agree on that before I proceed?

Quoting "the Lord's prayer" isn't relevant to Jesus alleged own words in Mark 16, John 14, and elsewhere. The old comeback, "it wasn't God's will to heal this time" doesn't work because it directly contradicts Jesus' own alleged words. And this brings us to your main problem (which you already admitted, in a round about way, above). You have a precommitment to your "hypothesis". You have STARTED with your conclusion NOT A HYPOTHESIS. A hypothesis can sometimes be called a working assumption. Is that what you have, an assumption? So you've assumed your interpretation of the bible. You've assumed it has words from God in it, and you've assumed that we should interpret it favorably instead of critically, like we do with all other alleged holy books. Why would you do this?

So you can cherry pick, but I can't? That is absurd.


HA! This is excellent! So you are admitting that you are cherry picking, and then, trying to accuse me of it too? Even if it were true that I was cherry picking bible verses (which I don't for a second admit), two illogical wrongs don't make a right, do they?

I have pointed out other passages which contradict the passage you are trying to provide. They provide MORE context, not less, and instead of admitting that your "hypothesis" is in error, you are instead trying to turn the tables? That sounds like confirmation bias. It doesn't really seem that you are being critical enough of this hypothesis (i.e. - you committed yourself to your conclusion in advance). Would you practice this same methodology (i.e. - assuming your hypothesis is true) with other holy books?

The problem I find with this line of thinking is that you seem to think that a miracle belongs in a special category such as healing amputees. I have a much wider domain of miracles. e.g. The fact that I am awake today and typing this message is a miracle. If you limit your thinking to define a miracle as narrowly as those you are trying so hard to enlighten, then you are in danger of ending up with a closed mind. I am here because I have faith that you are all open minded - right?

Regarding miracles, Jesus seems to have put them a "special category" too. He said (supposedly) that if the pharisees didn't believe him they should believe "the works" he allegedly did. Were those works just breathing, eating food, drinking water, or being alive? No, his writers were pointing to alleged violations of the laws of physics. Your method for distinguishing a miracle from a rare event, a natural event, or something common is quite indistinguishable from having NO miracles at all. By your definition, there is no reason to have science b/c every occurrence in the natural world could be called "a miracle", at which case the word has no meaning whatsoever. If you're going to call nature a miracle, why not just call it nature? That word simply has way too much baggage attached to it which opens the door for all types of quackery, trickery, and absurdity.

Secondly, an open mind is one that is not practicing confirmation bias or assuming ones "hypothesis" in advance (and then trying to defend it in the face of contrary evidence). Someone with an open mind is, generally, not fixed to a "faith" or a presumed conclusion. In my life, I have demonstrated at least twice that I have an open mind (b/c I allowed my worldview to change with the evidence at least twice), have you?

And as to 'Faith in error' ? That is another absurdity. Faith by definition is subjective. It can therefore not be in error. It is your opinion vs mine. So can we drop that as that is an intellectual blind alley?

No, we can't. Whether or not faith is practiced in a subjective manner is irrelevant to the question of discovering it's error. If you'd like to debate the definition of what faith is, that is another matter. But I hold that faith is believing something when you don't have good reason to do so, b/c if you had good reason you wouldn't need faith (as you alluded to above - basing your entire life on an alleged hypothesis), and that is in fact possible to demonstrate.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 13, 2013, 02:25:34 PM
Or perhaps you've completely missed mine. God works His miracles through men. I thought this was already established. Or should I quote scripture to show that He works miracles through men? Where do you get the idea that God directly intervenes to make miracles without employing humans? That is false doctrine that is not based on scripture.

This is wholly false. God didn't show his backside to Moses? God didn't show up in a burning bush to Moses? God didn't come down in the form of Jesus and do miracles, personally? Your position seems to be the one that is not based in "scripture", and that is because you have assumed your theology (your interpretation of the text) in advance - which is what every Christian does and has done all throughout history.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 13, 2013, 02:35:29 PM
And I am yet to find 2 non believers who agree on the perception of the God whose existence they are actually refuting. I suggest that is a moot point.

No, it isn't a moot point b/c it is not our job to define your God for you (or anybody else'), nor is it our job to hold some definition of an alleged God for which we do not believe exists. The burden of proof lies upon he who makes the claim, and since all of the definitions of the term "God" that we have thus heard fail, it is irrelevant as to whether one non-believer speaks of varying definitions of that term from another.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 13, 2013, 03:29:34 PM
Now a second strawman - That God works miracles directly without employing humans - again, scriptural basis please as this is yet another false doctrine.

Let's see, in no particular order:
Creating the world would be one. 
Flooding the world would be another. 
Turning Lot's wife to salt might qualify. 
Killing Onan's older brother, Er. 
Killing Onan. 
The 10 plagues in Egypt. 
Does parting the Re Sea count?  Since Moses didn't actually do anything, I would say it counts. 
The destruction of the people of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (Numbers 16) was not done "through" people.
Holding the sun (earth?) still at Jericho.
Setting the wet wood on fire for Elijah when tested (1 Kings 18:23-40) 

Do you need more?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on June 13, 2013, 03:34:46 PM
^^ I guess the most direct example would be "creating humans".  He couldn't have very well employed humans in creating the first human!
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 13, 2013, 05:53:10 PM
I will try and limit this to the believes relevant to this topic.

Thanks zele - let me try to reflect back what you have said.

We cannot understand god.
We can experience the effects of god.
We can create in partnership with god.
God is is continuosly being revealed through prayer. This is an eternal process
God reveals himself more to the faithful. is moved by faith.
God is bound by physical laws he has put in place.
For the purpose of the discussion, I grant you the above.

how can we have any degree of certainty at all that anything we think we know about him is true?
We can't. I don't. I have faith. You are the one who appears to be certain about the absence of evidence being the evidence of non-existence of God.

And now also, a summary of your tenets ? (not sure what a non-believer will call his believes but I'm sure you know what I mean)  please - broad brush

Not worried by the terminology - worldview, perhaps?

There may be a god or gods - but any god that has been clearly defined and that I have examined has proved not to exist, or to be irrelevant.
Any thing that happens, happens as the result of particular physical laws, influenced by random quantum fluctuations (and, incidentally, that there is no "free will" in the sense that we have no control over any choices we make).
So we seem to be getting somewhere. We agree on the existence of some universal [physical only in your case] laws. And were do you suppose is the origin of the physical laws? Random quantum fluctuations? no control over any choices we make? So you are not in control of the choice you have made to engage in this discussion? That is clearly another miracle to me.

Now that we are getting serious, we might as well  just slay some sacred cows. The god that is not able to heal your amputees is too incompetent. I can conduct similar prayer experiments to illustrate this. e.g. he cannot re-assemble shattered china or unscramble a scrambled egg. So we can shatter some china. Sit pray and wait. And that god will not deliver the miracle. I hope you can see that there is possibly an infinite set of things that we will not get a miracle on from your strawman god. I am engaging in this discussion purely as an intellectual exercise as I could have just dismissed the absurdity that is inherent in the central premise that any serious thinker would immediately identify.

So moving on, can you see from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism) that yours is just one of the many schools of thought that have engaged the minds of many great thinkers in the past well before us? You will also see bits of what I subscribe to, reflected there.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 13, 2013, 09:50:47 PM
So we seem to be getting somewhere. We agree on the existence of some universal [physical only in your case] laws. And were do you suppose is the origin of the physical laws? Random quantum fluctuations? no control over any choices we make? So you are not in control of the choice you have made to engage in this discussion? That is clearly another miracle to me.

No actually, we do not agree on some "universal" laws. Laws are descriptions of regularities we notice in nature, and our confidence in them grows as they continue to be regular. But they are not absolute, and in fact, we can say nothing about them prior to the singularity which was prior to the Big Bang.

Regarding the freewill/determinism subject, have you read any current philosophers on this? How much research have you done? There is also a position called Compatiblism. Have you heard of it? What do you mean by the word "control"? As for me, I can sum up my position to the question, "Do we have freewill" by saying: We have no choice but to...

When I hear Christians, and religious people, start talking about freewill it doesn't seem they (well most of them) have really thought about that word very deeply, what it means to have it, or what they mean when they use it. What does it mean to have freewill, to you? B/c when I'm using that term I'm usually just talking about the ability to make my own choices as I wish (i.e. - without coercion).

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/ (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/)

Btw, in your theology, is God completely sovereign over all of his creation? Does he have control over everything that happens? If so, then it really doesn't seem like you have "freewill" either (but I will wait for your response as to a definition).


Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 03:57:51 AM
how can we have any degree of certainty at all that anything we think we know about him is true?
We can't. I don't. I have faith. You are the one who appears to be certain about the absence of evidence being the evidence of non-existence of God.

Nope.  Absence of evidence simply gives no reason to accept the existence of something.  If there is no evidence for something, then (for practical purposes) I will act as if it does not exist.  Same way as I do not always check under my bed for tigers before I climb out in the morning.  I have never seen a tiger in my room, smelt one, heard one, or seen any sign whatsoever that a tiger is or was ever in my room.  With no evidence to support the thought that there is a tiger there, I never check.  Apparently though, that is the sort of thing that YOU do?

It was about the healing that - you agreed - happened instantaneously by god's representatives on earth.
'He sometimes "works miracles through men" in a more direct form, for example a faith healer instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever' - yes or no?[/b]
Yes.

My bold.  Did you mean "no" to that question?

Just a reminder - I would appreciate it if you would clear this up. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jetson on June 14, 2013, 07:45:26 AM
Zele.  Can you paraphrase the premise of WWGHA accurately? 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 14, 2013, 11:37:03 AM
So we seem to be getting somewhere. We agree on the existence of some universal [physical only in your case] laws. And were do you suppose is the origin of the physical laws? Random quantum fluctuations? no control over any choices we make? So you are not in control of the choice you have made to engage in this discussion? That is clearly another miracle to me.

No actually, we do not agree on some "universal" laws. Laws are descriptions of regularities we notice in nature
What do you mean by nature??

and our confidence in them grows as they continue to be regular. But they are not absolute, and in fact, we can say nothing about them prior to the singularity which was prior to the Big Bang.
I hope you can see that the bits in bold require quite a leap of faith. My response to this is that I don't know.

Regarding the freewill/determinism subject, have you read any current philosophers on this? How much research have you done? There is also a position called Compatiblism. Have you heard of it? What do you mean by the word "control"? As for me, I can sum up my position to the question, "Do we have freewill" by saying: We have no choice but to...
How current? I am still trawling through 'A History of Philosophy' by Thomas Taylor and with the information explosion age, there is a lot to take in.

When I hear Christians, and religious people, start talking about freewill it doesn't seem they (well most of them) have really thought about that word very deeply, what it means to have it, or what they mean when they use it. What does it mean to have freewill, to you? B/c when I'm using that term I'm usually just talking about the ability to make my own choices as I wish (i.e. - without coercion).

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/ (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/)
Quite fascinating. It looks like I will enjoy it. Thank you.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries
Btw, in your theology, is God completely sovereign over all of his creation? Does he have control over everything that happens? If so, then it really doesn't seem like you have "freewill" either (but I will wait for your response as to a definition).
 (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/)
No, I do not have a Theology. As I said, He is not all powerful and so cannot have control over everything. Also, he is subject to the rules He has put in place. The system loses integrity if he does not conform.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 11:40:41 AM
No, I do not have a Theology. As I said, He is not all powerful and so cannot have control over everything. Also, he is subject to the rules He has put in place. The system loses integrity if he does not conform.

I just want to point out that I said the same things about Myself in My "I am the LORD your GOD. Ask me anything." thread. Coincidence? I think not. zele is, in reality, worshiping Me.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jdawg70 on June 14, 2013, 11:48:03 AM
and our confidence in them grows as they continue to be regular. But they are not absolute, and in fact, we can say nothing about them prior to the singularity which was prior to the Big Bang.
I hope you can see that the bits in bold require quite a leap of faith. My response to this is that I don't know.
?
Well I certainly don't see the leap of faith that's necessary to say "we don't know", which is basically what the portion in bold is saying.  Maybe I'm just confused at what you're saying?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Astreja on June 14, 2013, 12:14:43 PM
I just want to point out that I said the same things about Myself in My "I am the LORD your GOD. Ask me anything." thread. Coincidence? I think not. zele is, in reality, worshiping Me.

However, if the worship involves chocolate, random equipment malfunctions, punctuation or the Northern hemisphere vernal equinox I'm calling "dibs" as those are My magisteria.   8)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 12:17:40 PM
However, if the worship involves chocolate, random equipment malfunctions, punctuation or the Northern hemisphere vernal equinox I'm calling "dibs" as those are My magisteria.   8)

As a favor from a god to another god, would you mind checking if by clicking on the email icon on my profile you can see my email address?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Astreja on June 14, 2013, 12:28:55 PM
As a favor from a god to another god, would you mind checking if by clicking on the email icon on my profile you can see my email address?

Done.  Reply should be in your PM box now.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 12:31:55 PM
Done.  Reply should be in your PM box now.

I just replied to it. Thanks.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 14, 2013, 03:26:14 PM
Zele.  Can you paraphrase the premise of WWGHA accurately?
As accurately as I can. And with all the limitations that language imposes:

WWGHA poses a question to Bible believing Christians to explain why the 'god' they believe in does not work physical healing miracles for amputees. It advances its own reasonable explanations as to why this might be - conducting prayer experiments to illustrate that all alleged miracle cures, to date, are a delusion or  have some other material reasonable explanation. The ultimate aim being to make the Christians 'see reason' and give up their imaginary God as he is no different to a tooth ferry or Santa.

How does that sound?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 14, 2013, 03:32:14 PM
No, I do not have a Theology. As I said, He is not all powerful and so cannot have control over everything. Also, he is subject to the rules He has put in place. The system loses integrity if he does not conform.

I just want to point out that I said the same things about Myself in My "I am the LORD your GOD. Ask me anything." thread. Coincidence? I think not. zele is, in reality, worshiping some aspect of Me.
Not quite right. See the bold bits.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 03:34:49 PM
Not quite right. See the bold bits.

You dare correct your God? I should toss you in hell for that! If only I had created such a place... Oh well. I guess I'll just have to be mad at you for eternity.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 14, 2013, 05:42:01 PM
... Oh well. I guess I'll just have to be mad at you for eternity.
That really scares me :'(  What shall I do now? but your love never fails nor gives up,  right? And that is why I am here trying to win some souls for Christ - although I have a slight suspicion that the seeds are not falling on particularly fertile ground, but I sow by faith and trust in you.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 14, 2013, 06:03:21 PM
and our confidence in them grows as they continue to be regular. But they are not absolute, and in fact, we can say nothing about them prior to the singularity which was prior to the Big Bang.
I hope you can see that the bits in bold require quite a leap of faith. My response to this is that I don't know.
?
Well I certainly don't see the leap of faith that's necessary to say "we don't know", which is basically what the portion in bold is saying.  Maybe I'm just confused at what you're saying?
The leap of faith was your proclamation on the Big Bang - or is that as real as the tooth ferry? So what 'banged' ? You can't answer so silence from you ... as you are perhaps frightened out of your wits to think past that point - go on, I invite you to try hard and reason past that point. And whilst we are both there, I take it on faith that God caused the bang. you keep silent. OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we? You need to be patient, as perhaps in a couple of billion years our amputees would possibly be growing limbs as easily as doing hula hoops ...
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jdawg70 on June 14, 2013, 06:13:13 PM
?
Well I certainly don't see the leap of faith that's necessary to say "we don't know", which is basically what the portion in bold is saying.  Maybe I'm just confused at what you're saying?
The leap of faith was your proclamation on the Big Bang - or is that as real as the tooth ferry? So what 'banged' silence from you ... as you are perhaps frightened out of your wits to think past that point - go on, I invite you to try hard and reason past that point. And whilst we are both there, I take it on faith that God caused the bang. you keep silent. OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we?
Well, technically it was median that was talking about the Big Bang.  I simply interjected into the conversation so my apologies on that.

But what do you think myself or median are scared of exactly when we say "I don't know"?  Why exactly are you so afraid to just admit to not knowing what happened prior to the first few nanoseconds after the event called the Big Bang?  Why are you so scared to admit that you don't know that you inject faith that you know that god caused it?  Seriously, why should it require faith to readily admit to not knowing an answer?  Why is it better to just make shit up and call it 'faith'????????

How do you define faith?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 14, 2013, 06:47:55 PM
What caused the Big Bang? Factor X did. How did Factor X create the universe? I don't know, but I have faith in Factor X. 

Not happy? Saying "a god caused" something does not give any more information than saying Factor X. It only moves the unknown thing back another step to another unexplainable effect without a cause. If you can't explain how the god did whatever, what is the point of saying a god did something? What does that really mean?

"God does what god wants. Whatever happens is god's will and I have faith in god." That is just a culturally accepted way to say, "I don't really know and I don't care enough to find out."
 
Does god cause cancer? Does god cure cancer? If you believe that god has anything to do with cancer, you don't have to quit smoking or clean up the environment or do any research or try to find a cure--just leave it all up to god.

Funny how, after thousands of years, god no longer wants people to get smallpox anymore. Coincidence that god let up on the smallpox about the same time that scientists developed a cure for it.... &)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: The Gawd on June 14, 2013, 07:25:04 PM
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: JeffPT on June 14, 2013, 08:17:17 PM
So what 'banged' ?
We don't know.  And actually, that's the correct response to someone who asks you a question that you don't know the answer to.  It's also a far cry better to say that than it is to make up some stupid shit about an invisible man in the sky who snaps his fingers and poofs a universe into being. 

Here is an analogy to help you see what you're doing here.  Say you're walking down the street with 2 of your friends and you all come upon a plain cardboard box in front of you that you've never seen before.  Your ask your first friend what's inside the box and he says he doesn't know.  You ask your second friend and he is adamant that there is a toaster in the box.  Upon asking your second friend how he knows it's a toaster, he says that a toaster would fit inside the box, and that he has faith it's a toaster.  Which of your 2 friends is being more reasonable?  For me, it's friend 1.   

Sure, a deity of some kind could be responsible for the big bang, and I am sure you can rationalize that your particular god could be responsible for the creation of the universe; but in the absence of any sort of evidence to separate your particular god theory from every other possible theory we can come up with, it's absolutely ridiculous to claim that your personal version of god is responsible.  Just like its ridiculous to guess that a toaster is inside a box that you've never seen before, just because it would fit inside. 

You can't answer so silence from you ... as you are perhaps frightened out of your wits to think past that point - go on, I invite you to try hard and reason past that point.
We can't reason past that point yet.  It's not that we're afraid to do it; it's just that its a foolish endeavor.  And we're not silent.  We really say that we don't know.  Why do you think that's so bad? 

You make it seem as though your guesswork has a leg up on us because at least you're taking some sort of position and we're not  Fine... If you value taking ANY position over waiting for sufficient evidence, then I can't stop you from doing that.  But you're doing exactly the same thing as the person who has faith that there is a toaster in the box in my example above, and then claiming that they've somehow taken a superior position to that of the person who says they don't know what's in the box.  What would you say to your second friend if he said 'HA, you're frightened out of your wits to think about what's in the box!'?  This is what you're doing.  I wish you could see that.   

And whilst we are both there, I take it on faith that God caused the bang.
This claim is no more respectable than the claim that a toaster is in the box.  Faith that it's a toaster is stupid.  Faith that your personal version of god was responsible for the big bang is equally stupid. 

you keep silent.
Better that than say something dumb. 

OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we? You need to be patient, as perhaps in a couple of billion years our amputees would possibly be growing limbs as easily as doing hula hoops ...

If the selection pressures somehow drive the evolutionary process in that direction, maybe we will.  It happens with salamanders and starfish, both of whom regrow lost limbs regularly. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jetson on June 15, 2013, 08:17:03 AM
Zele.  Can you paraphrase the premise of WWGHA accurately?
As accurately as I can. And with all the limitations that language imposes:

WWGHA poses a question to Bible believing Christians to explain why the 'god' they believe in does not work physical healing miracles for amputees. It advances its own reasonable explanations as to why this might be - conducting prayer experiments to illustrate that all alleged miracle cures, to date, are a delusion or  have some other material reasonable explanation. The ultimate aim being to make the Christians 'see reason' and give up their imaginary God as he is no different to a tooth ferry or Santa.

How does that sound?

Are you a Bible believing Christian?

Keep in mind the sheer number of claims from Christians regarding miracle healing.  There are countless claims, from countless "Bible believing Christians", that YHWH literally changes the physiology of human beings, in answer to sincere prayers, resulting in a healing of one sort or another.  They literally believe that YHWH intervenes with his "powers" to heal human ailments.

Now, the very simple question, assuming YHWH does in fact execute healing, is "why won't he heal amputees?".

And your answer is something along the lines of YHWH does not work in reverse?  What does that even mean?  Do you disagree with all of those Bible believing Christians in their interpretation of healing through prayer? 

The premise of WWGHA is anchored on the sincere belief from a very large number of Christians, that YHWH literally heals people.  If you disagree, then you are in a minority position, and this premise may not be reasonable from your perspective.  Fair enough, but you have done absolutely nothing to change the premise, or convince anyone that you have a better position.  You are basically avoiding the actual premise, and inventing your own.



Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 03:16:07 PM
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?
Limitations of natural language. So you select a term that will assist you in relating to the concept.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 03:27:47 PM
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?
Limitations of natural language. So you select a term that will assist you in relating to the concept.

"It" would be a better description, as The Gawd used.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 03:41:33 PM
Zele.  Can you paraphrase the premise of WWGHA accurately?
As accurately as I can. And with all the limitations that language imposes:

WWGHA poses a question to Bible believing Christians to explain why the 'god' they believe in does not work physical healing miracles for amputees. It advances its own reasonable explanations as to why this might be - conducting prayer experiments to illustrate that all alleged miracle cures, to date, are a delusion or  have some other material reasonable explanation. The ultimate aim being to make the Christians 'see reason' and give up their imaginary God as he is no different to a tooth ferry or Santa.

How does that sound?


Before I respond to you, could you please say if I correctly captured the essence of the central premise of WWGHA? If not please correct me so we may avoid errors in inferencing  and misunderstandings.

And in case you missed it in an earlier post I re-state here for your benefit:

I am a critical thinking born again bible believing christian. (I also believe in science and the existence of non-material evidence). I have faith. Plenty of faith. And so there are many things that I don't know but believe in their existence by faith.

Please stop me if this sounds like 'advertising my opinions' which is against forum rules(and a touch tasteless, if I may say so, as it sounds off like there is something I am selling). But it is becoming increasing difficult to have a discussion without laying down some basic foundations. If you feel at any point that I crossed your forum  lines please pull the guillotine as you have the powers as moderator.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 03:49:55 PM
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?
Limitations of natural language. So you select a term that will assist you in relating to the concept.

"It" would be a better description, as The Gawd used.
If I had a say I would go for 'She' because of the birthing nature of events in the universe ... Indeed, Mary being the mother of God - you should be able to appreciate why I would opt for that description.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 03:56:03 PM

How do you define faith?
see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 04:01:23 PM
If I had a say I would go for 'She' because of the birthing nature of events in the universe ... Indeed, Mary being the mother of God - you should be able to appreciate why I would opt for that description.

Whatever floats your boat. I was just pointing out that, given the supernatural nature of a god, a gender-neutral pronoun might be better than subjecting it to our limited concepts of gender.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 04:19:03 PM
Now a second strawman - That God works miracles directly without employing humans - again, scriptural basis please as this is yet another false doctrine.

Let's see, in no particular order:
Creating the world would be one. 
Flooding the world would be another. 
Turning Lot's wife to salt might qualify. 
Killing Onan's older brother, Er. 
Killing Onan. 
The 10 plagues in Egypt. 
Does parting the Re Sea count?  Since Moses didn't actually do anything, I would say it counts. 
The destruction of the people of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (Numbers 16) was not done "through" people.
Holding the sun (earth?) still at Jericho.
Setting the wet wood on fire for Elijah when tested (1 Kings 18:23-40) 

Do you need more?
Sorry, I meant physical healing miracles - amputees being the current subject of interest ... so please find me scriptural basis for physical healing miracles of the type that is implied in the premise of WWGHA.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 04:21:19 PM
Sorry, I meant physical healing miracles - amputees being the current subject of interest ... so please find me scriptural basis for physical healing miracles of the type that is implied in the premise of WWGHA.

Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm

Quote from: Like 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
Source: http://biblehub.com/luke/17-6.htm

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 04:23:46 PM
Whatever floats your boat...
;) That is pure fallacy - I don't have a boat - pun intended.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 04:31:27 PM
Sorry, I meant physical healing miracles - amputees being the current subject of interest ... so please find me scriptural basis for physical healing miracles of the type that is implied in the premise of WWGHA.

Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm

Quote from: Like 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
Source: http://biblehub.com/luke/17-6.htm

Your thoughts?
And that is to my point about God only working such miracles by employing human agents as co-creators. I will venture  preempting the One Above All at the risk of incurring 'Her' wrath - that we are dangerously close to injecting time into the mix - but I await with much anticipation ..
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 04:33:25 PM
And that is to my point about God only working such miracles by employing human agents as co-creators.

So you admit that your god is a useless bit of trivia whose existence doesn't even matter.

I will venture  preempting the One Above All at the risk of incurring 'Her' wrath - that we are dangerously close to injecting time into the mix - but I await with much anticipation ..

No clue what this bit means.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 04:55:18 PM

....We don't know.  And actually, that's the correct response to someone who asks you a question that you don't know the answer to.  It's also a far cry better to say that than it is to make up some stupid shit about an invisible man in the sky who snaps his fingers and poofs a universe into being

... Faith that it's a toaster is stupid.  Faith that your personal version of god was responsible for the big bang is equally stupid. 

...Better that than say something dumb. 
Have you ever asked a theist how stupid an atheist is? I suspect you might find some disagreement with the response.

Can you see that you made up the bits in italics?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 05:02:22 PM
And that is to my point about God only working such miracles by employing human agents as co-creators.

So you admit that your god is a useless bit of trivia whose existence doesn't even matter.
My apologies if I left the One Above All out from my definition of God. To clarify you are a part of my definition as a co-creator.

I will venture  preempting the One Above All at the risk of incurring 'Her' wrath - that we are dangerously close to injecting time into the mix - but I await with much anticipation ..

No clue what this bit means.
Aha! there is something about which One Above All is clueless in 'Her' majesty! you granted me something to float my  boat - remember?. What a disappointing deity who forgets so quickly!
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 05:08:46 PM
My apologies if I left the One Above All out from my definition of God. To clarify you are a part of my definition as a co-creator.

Sorry, not good enough. The One Above All is the supreme god (but not the only one) in all of existence.

Aha! there is something about which One Above All is clueless in 'Her' majesty! you granted me something to float my  boat - remember?. What a disappointing deity who forgets so quickly!

I actually am a male, unlike your god, so feel free to call Me a "Him". Or not. I don't really care, since being a woman is not insulting.
Also, I know everything I need to know at any given moment.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 05:14:31 PM
Which one would you have picked from the list?

 I would define a miracle as an event whereby a deity intervenes by breaking the known laws of nature.
The God I believe in does not break the laws he has put in place. That would violate the integrity of the system.

Then they praise god, instead of the paramedics.  Idiots.
Screwtape, are these the kind people at the centre of the premise of WWGHA with whom you have issues?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 05:21:22 PM
My apologies if I left the One Above All out from my definition of God. To clarify you are a part of my definition as a co-creator.

Sorry, not good enough. The One Above All is the supreme god (but not the only one) in all of existence.
Oh calmn now! Don't be greedy.

Aha! there is something about which One Above All is clueless in 'Her' majesty! you granted me something to float my  boat - remember?. What a disappointing deity who forgets so quickly!

I actually am a male, unlike your god, so feel free to call Me a "Him". Or not. I don't really care, since being a woman is not insulting.
Also, I know everything I need to know at any given moment.
Must I post-fix all such with  - pun intended. OK from now hence, I know the One Above All does not do puns.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 05:25:12 PM
Oh calmn now! Don't be greedy.

I just want credit where credit's due. Is that too much to ask for?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: JeffPT on June 15, 2013, 05:34:28 PM

....We don't know.  And actually, that's the correct response to someone who asks you a question that you don't know the answer to.  It's also a far cry better to say that than it is to make up some stupid shit about an invisible man in the sky who snaps his fingers and poofs a universe into being

... Faith that it's a toaster is stupid.  Faith that your personal version of god was responsible for the big bang is equally stupid. 

...Better that than say something dumb. 
Have you ever asked a theist how stupid an atheist is? I suspect you might find some disagreement with the response.

Can you see that you made up the bits in italics?
I never said you were stupid. Believing in things like your version of God is stupid, but on the whole, you might be average intelligence.

I noticed you didn't address the major points of my post. Why don't you look over the rest of it and respond to what I wrote instead of taking this tangent? 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 06:05:53 PM

I noticed you didn't address the major points of my post. Why don't you look over the rest of it and respond to what I wrote instead of taking this tangent?
I will respond.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jetson on June 15, 2013, 06:30:33 PM

Before I respond to you, could you please say if I correctly captured the essence of the central premise of WWGHA? If not please correct me so we may avoid errors in inferencing  and misunderstandings.

And in case you missed it in an earlier post I re-state here for your benefit:

I am a critical thinking born again bible believing christian. (I also believe in science and the existence of non-material evidence). I have faith. Plenty of faith. And so there are many things that I don't know but believe in their existence by faith.

Please stop me if this sounds like 'advertising my opinions' which is against forum rules(and a touch tasteless, if I may say so, as it sounds off like there is something I am selling). But it is becoming increasing difficult to have a discussion without laying down some basic foundations. If you feel at any point that I crossed your forum  lines please pull the guillotine as you have the powers as moderator.

Fundamentally, I think you have a good understanding of the premise, although I feel a tinge of bias (which is common on both sides, I admit). 

What I wanted you to accept, if you agree, is that you may be in a minority position as a Christian, given that you don't seem to accept that YHWH literally changes a person's physiology with his "powers", in response to sincere prayer.  Is that accurate?

I would argue that non-believers are happy to accept reasonable explanations for things we don't fully understand, but generally speaking, they prefer to go with "I don't know" when it comes to things that science has no explanation for.  What caused the Big Bang?  No idea...but I certainly accept that it happened - given the current facts and evidence available.  Does YHWH exist?  I don't know, but I see no reason to think he does.  As science has never had even a reasonable hypothesis on the existence of YHWH, I remain less than convinced that the long-held belief in YHWH is anything more than the continued mythology of past societies, carried forward.

The important thing to remember is that there is literally no reason to consider a god, unless there is some evidence to support it.  At this time, no god has ever been shown to exist, and in fact, all man-made gods so far have been placed in the category of mythology.  I'm not sure why YHWH gets any special "believability" points, as gods go.

BTW, welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 06:56:07 PM
Here is an analogy to help you see what you're doing here.  Say you're walking down the street with 2 of your friends and you all come upon a plain cardboard box in front of you that you've never seen before.  Your ask your first friend what's inside the box and he says he doesn't know.  You ask your second friend and he is adamant that there is a toaster in the box.  Upon asking your second friend how he knows it's a toaster, he says that a toaster would fit inside the box, and that he has faith it's a toaster.  Which of your 2 friends is being more reasonable?  For me, it's friend 1.   
This analogy makes an incorrect fundamental assumption. First of all I am not adamant about anything. I believe in God by faith. I accept that you have difficulty with someone who might be of average intelligence holding that believe.

I think you should have stuck with silence than come up with this kind of analogy because it betrays the impression that you are not quite with the fundamental nature of the question that is at issue here.

Sure, a deity of some kind could be responsible for the big bang
That is all I expect from an atheist because by the nature of the fact that you are a healthy skeptic, you should not be unequivocal on something you do not know. And that is the same with me. The difference is that I have faith - which you dismiss. As a matter of interest, do you have faith in anything?

.... and I am sure you can rationalize that your particular god could be responsible for the creation of the universe; but in the absence of any sort of evidence to separate your particular god theory from every other possible theory we can come up with, it's absolutely ridiculous to claim that your personal version of god is responsible.  Just like its ridiculous to guess that a toaster is inside a box that you've never seen before, just because it would fit inside. 
That would be an informed quess - and I suggest not as ridiculous as you imagine. In any event, faith has little  to do with guessing. e.g I have faith that you have a mind. Can you proof the existence of your mind to me?

We can't reason past that point yet.  It's not that we're afraid to do it; it's just that its a foolish endeavor.  And we're not silent.  We really say that we don't know.  Why do you think that's so bad? 
I didn't say it was bad. In fact, it is a perfectly legitimate stance to take. However, you appear to be very vocal against someone taking a stance on grounds of faith.

You make it seem as though your guesswork has a leg up on us because at least you're taking some sort of position and we're not  Fine... If you value taking ANY position over waiting for sufficient evidence, then I can't stop you from doing that.  But you're doing exactly the same thing as the person who has faith that there is a toaster in the box in my example above, and then claiming that they've somehow taken a superior position to that of the person who says they don't know what's in the box.
Sorry, did I say anything about one position being superior?

What would you say to your second friend if he said 'HA, you're frightened out of your wits to think about what's in the box!'?  This is what you're doing.  I wish you could see that.
No, I would not say that. I would say I know enough to have faith that the box contains a toaster.


This claim is no more respectable than the claim that a toaster is in the box.  Faith that it's a toaster is stupid.  Faith that your personal version of god was responsible for the big bang is equally stupid. 
Can we get off this 'Faith is stupid' horse please? Can you see that 'Faith' cannot be conscious?

you keep silent.
Better that than say something dumb. 
I take it you mean something that you judge to be dumb - right?

OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we? You need to be patient, as perhaps in a couple of billion years our amputees would possibly be growing limbs as easily as doing hula hoops ...

If the selection pressures somehow drive the evolutionary process in that direction, maybe we will.  It happens with salamanders and starfish, both of whom regrow lost limbs regularly.
we might already be moving past Darwinian selection ...
http://www.newrealities.com/index.php/articles-on-new-sciences/item/299-why-darwin-is-wrong-and-fractal-evolution-by-alan-steinfeld (http://www.newrealities.com/index.php/articles-on-new-sciences/item/299-why-darwin-is-wrong-and-fractal-evolution-by-alan-steinfeld)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: zele on June 15, 2013, 07:11:50 PM
What I wanted you to accept, if you agree, is that you may be in a minority position as a Christian,
At the risk of this be classed as a dodge - let me try.
Being in the minority - worldwide? or only in some geographic locations? I have no way of knowing this.

given that you don't seem to accept that YHWH literally changes a person's physiology with his "powers", in response to sincere prayer.  Is that accurate?
Yes. And I have given my rationale for this in many places already. I said there is no scriptural basis for this. That is a false doctrine. God always works through humans as co-creators when it comes to such physical miracles. Further more, by necessity prayer must be separated from such miracles. You will see that there were no prayers for such miracles before they were executed recorded in scripture. And as  to Jesus healing the blind - you will read that he used something physical - And he had 2 gos to get it right. I hope I have not lost you in all that.

BTW, welcome to the forum.
Thank you.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 07:30:44 PM
Yes. And I have given my rationale for this in many places already. I said there is no scriptural basis for this. That is a false doctrine. God always works through humans as co-creators when it comes to such physical miracles. Further more, by necessity prayer must be separated from such miracles. You will see that there were no prayers for such miracles before they were executed recorded in scripture. And as  to Jesus healing the blind - you will read that he used something physical - And he had 2 gos to get it right. I hope I have not lost you in all that.

I've drawn the same conclusion that biological healing is limited to what the body can accomplish due to spiritual renewal.
However, I do believe that such healing can go far beyond the limits of the normal bell curve of data we would use.
Many things the spiritually healed body can accomplish would be, and have been, considered miracles.   
That's my current view on healing.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jetson on June 15, 2013, 07:34:59 PM
At the risk of this be classed as a dodge - let me try.
Being in the minority - worldwide? or only in some geographic locations? I have no way of knowing this.

Well, I suppose without any data, I couldn't say for certain.  It's a gut feel based on my personal experience, and there may certainly be a geographic element, as religions tend to have that dynamic naturally.  I think more Christians than not, believe that YHWH answers prayers.  I would find it surprising if that turned out to be false.

Quote from: zele
Yes. And I have given my rationale for this in many places already. I said there is no scriptural basis for this. That is a false doctrine. God always works through humans as co-creators when it comes to such physical miracles. Further more, by necessity prayer must be separated from such miracles. You will see that there were no prayers for such miracles before they were executed recorded in scripture. And as  to Jesus healing the blind - you will read that he used something physical - And he had 2 gos to get it right. I hope I have not lost you in all that.

That's an interesting position on prayer, and one that I don't hear often.  Have you already commented on what you believe to be the purpose of prayer, coming from scripture?  Apologies if I missed it.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 15, 2013, 09:54:46 PM
zele

A couple of comments. First, keep in mind that no two christians are ever alike, so we often have to go through a vetting process to figure out which parts of the bible a newbie likes, and which parts he or she doesn't like. We're not too structured as we parry and dodge fresh meat, so it may come across as disorganized, which it probably is.

In the meantime, we tend to make assumption based on each of our individual versions of a generic christian. Please be patient. It's not our fault there are so many different kinds of you.

As for the amputee question, please keep in mind that we have had many insightless conversations with theists of all stripes about this particular issue, and it is getting old. Again, we have to contend with a variety of custom christian viewpoints, and we end up spending pages and pages just parsing the claims and taking aspirin to ward off theist-caused headaches. The issue is most certainly not off the table, but please don't expect a plethora of enthusiastic atheists to respond in such a way that you get a good fight out of the deal. You are giving the question more importance than the rest of us. We would change the name of the site if we had a chance, but the owner isn't in any way inclined to do that.

I, for one, am not an atheist because I disbelieve the bible. I am an atheist because I trust that science is on the right track, and so far, science hasn't found any definitive proof of a god. Nor a need for one. Obviously that is in part an opinion, but hey, I'm allowed.

I am not a theist because none of the many religions or many denominations have offered up anything that is the least bit believable to me. And that is key. Because belief is the bottom line for most of them.

I have often asked how a fake religion would differ from one that had a real christian god behind it, and nobody has ever tried to answer. Why a real god would insist on belief, just the way all the fake religions do, is just too weird to me to be believable. And the truth of a true religion should kind of, you know, provide consistency not only within itself but within the reality we all experience. And, unless you count very loose generic descriptions of human foibles, the bible offers up nothing else that aligns with reality, unless wishful thinking is an innate human trait.

We have a term we use around here, SPAG, which means "self projection as god". We tend to start interpreting the individual versions of your religion as the above-mentioned wishful thinking of each believer, who accepts, rejects and invents the type of religion he or she is most comfortable with. And that individual versions tend to be a pretty good mirror of who or what that person is inside. Really, really sweet people who are christians will tell us that we aren't going to hell because their god would never punish anyone for an eternity, and asshole christians will insist we are all going to fry forever because we are worthless crap, unworthy of their venerated savior and/or his daddy.

I know exactly why god doesn't heal amputees. He doesn't exist. That explains everything. And until someone can at least empirically demonstrate that christians have better, happier, healthier lives, that they experience fewer premature deaths, survive natural disasters at a higher rate or otherwise demonstrate that they experience real world advantages, I am not likely to take any variation of the tale seriously.

So while we non-believers here try to figure out which parts of the bible you find convenient, which parts you consider allegory and/or metaphor or fable or just plain right or wrong, we envy you for getting to argue with us, a group that is much more coherent because we don't have to squabble a lot over whether chloroplasts in plants are part of the photosynthetic process or to ward off lightening. We don't have to worry that gravity is only a theory as we aim our spacecraft at Mars and land them there. We don't have to divide physics into two churches because half the parishioners think string theory is correct and the other half don't. We all get to play nice together without building separate buildings to worship our personal take on atmospheric factors and/or fossils. Those doing the science do the best they can with current and new knowledge, while the rest of us, who are cheering them on, do our best not to get suckered into religious silliness which accomplishes nothing, if you don't count jihads and stuff.

If you want to argue, there are plenty of us here who will do that. But you'll be disappointed if you think that you automatically know what our issues are.

Edit: for clarity, next to last paragraph.
 

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 16, 2013, 12:06:45 AM
What do you mean by nature??

The physical world in and around us and the phenomena it encompasses.

and our confidence in them grows as they continue to be regular. But they are not absolute, and in fact, we can say nothing about them prior to the singularity which was prior to the Big Bang.

I hope you can see that the bits in bold require quite a leap of faith. My response to this is that I don't know.

How does saying that we can say nothing about a specific phenomena prior to another phenomena require a "leap of faith"? There is no "leap of faith" when one admits they do not know. Even more, pretending to know about the origin of the known universe (when you don't) doesn't solve anything or get us anywhere closer to discovering the truth.

How current? I am still trawling through 'A History of Philosophy' by Thomas Taylor and with the information explosion age, there is a lot to take in.


I'll take it the answer is "No" then, to my question regarding how much studying you have done on the freewill/determinism debate. See "Freewill" by Kane (textbook) and perhaps we can discuss this subject at a later time.



No, I do not have a Theology. As I said, He is not all powerful and so cannot have control over everything. Also, he is subject to the rules He has put in place. The system loses integrity if he does not conform.
 (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/)

Perhaps you do not understand the term "theology" b/c what you just wrote above is, in part, a theological position (i.e. - a position regarding what you think about "God"). What does this term "God" mean? How do you know it is real? How do you know it is "not all powerful"? Why do you keep referring to it as a "he"? Please demonstrate these claims.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 16, 2013, 12:15:45 AM

The leap of faith was your proclamation on the Big Bang - or is that as real as the tooth ferry? So what 'banged' ? You can't answer so silence from you ... as you are perhaps frightened out of your wits to think past that point - go on, I invite you to try hard and reason past that point. And whilst we are both there, I take it on faith that God caused the bang. you keep silent. OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we? You need to be patient, as perhaps in a couple of billion years our amputees would possibly be growing limbs as easily as doing hula hoops ...

Taking your position "on faith" is exactly the problem (i.e. - assuming your position in advance is absurd). I have made no "leap of faith" because I have made no claim regarding what or how our known universe originated. And your position is based upon a big argument from ignorance fallacy. "I can't understand how X happened, therefore 'God' did it." You seem to be the one taking a leap of faith. But leaps of faith are unreliable for determining fact from fiction and have been demonstrated as leading to egregious errors. What you are doing is practicing CREDULITY - instead of admitting that you don't have a sound answer.

Btw, why would you want to "reason past that point" by asserting a mysterious alleged deity named Yahweh? And no, I'm not silent and I will not just wait like you will. I will investigate, research, do homework, work hard, and above all REJECT CREDULITY.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Anfauglir on June 16, 2013, 02:37:09 AM
'He sometimes "works miracles through men" in a more direct form, for example a faith healer instantaneously cure blindness or cancer or whatever' - yes or no?[/b]
Yes.

My bold.  Did you mean "no" to that question?

Just a reminder - I would appreciate it if you would clear this up.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: screwtape on June 16, 2013, 08:48:51 AM
The God I believe in does not break the laws he has put in place. That would violate the integrity of the system.

Then you reject the 5 loaves and a fish kind of miracle altogether?  I've known a xian or two who felt that way also.  When I was briefly a deist before leaving gods altogether, I also believed that god did not do miracles like that. I believed god got the ball rolling at the "beginning" and then did nothing.  Completely hands off.

If I understand you correctly, you envision a universe that has rules and cause and effect.  So every outcome is non-random.  That is to say, each particle is where it is, doing what it is doing because of it's history and the effects of natural laws.   

The thing is, how can this god "work through people" without also breaking a rule?  Even subtle influence requires energy input into the system that is not accounted for.  In order for a god to nudge my decision from A (the normal decision I would have made without tampering) to B (the decision god made working "through" me), something has to be moved, a rule has to be broken.


Screwtape, are these the kind people at the centre of the premise of WWGHA with whom you have issues?

That is certainly one variety of them.  Anyone who thinks illnesses are cured by the kind of miracle I describe is the kind of person for whom wwgha was made.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: JeffPT on June 17, 2013, 06:52:00 PM
This analogy makes an incorrect fundamental assumption. First of all I am not adamant about anything.

Oh!  Ok, then.  Pardon me.  Let me change a word or 2 here and you can give it another go.  Ignore the first one and just address this one. 

Say you're walking down the street with 2 of your friends and you all come upon a plain cardboard box in front of you that you've never seen before.  Your ask your first friend what's inside the box and he says he doesn't know.  You ask your second friend and he says there is a toaster in the box.  Upon asking your second friend how he knows it's a toaster, he says that he has faith that it's a toaster.  Which of your 2 friends is being more reasonable?

I believe in God by faith. I accept that you have difficulty with someone who might be of average intelligence holding that believe.

You're right.  I do have a problem with that.  Just as much as I have a problem with the guy who says he has faith that there's a toaster in the box.  My intuition tells me you'd have a problem with him too. 

That is all I expect from an atheist because by the nature of the fact that you are a healthy skeptic, you should not be unequivocal on something you do not know. And that is the same with me. The difference is that I have faith - which you dismiss.

In other words, you turn off your healthy skepticism when it comes to your God.  Faith, of the kind you practice when it comes to God, is not a virtue in any sense.  You've probably been taught that it is, but it's not.  It's not virtuous to have faith that there's a toaster in the box, and it's certainly not virtuous to have faith in God.   

As a matter of interest, do you have faith in anything?
Not of the sort you practice with God belief.  No. 

That would be an informed quess

No.  Religion is not an informed guess.  It's the prototypical uninformed guess.  Let me give you an example to illustrate...

In the past, people believed an earthquake was God voicing his anger.  This, as you probably know (since you're living in the 21st century) was an uninformed guess.  The informed guess is plate tectonics, not God.  The more things we learn like that, the more we realize that God was nothing more than the uninformed guess of the masses who had nothing else to look to for answers. 

Can you proof the existence of your mind to me?
Define what you mean by 'mind' first and I will try to reasonably prove that I have one.   

I didn't say it was bad. In fact, it is a perfectly legitimate stance to take. However, you appear to be very vocal against someone taking a stance on grounds of faith.

Because in every other area of discourse, appealing to faith will get you laughed out of the building; and I see no reason to think God belief should get a special pass in that regard.  Tell me why faith in God is respectable, but faith that there's a toaster in the box isn't.   

Sorry, did I say anything about one position being superior?

If you won't, then I will.  The atheist position of not having faith in God is superior to the position of having faith in God in the exact same way that not having faith that there's a toaster in the box is superior to having faith that there's a toaster in the box. 

No, I would not say that. I would say I know enough to have faith that the box contains a toaster.

No sir.  Knowing is the opposite of having faith.  If you have knowledge of something, then you don't need faith to believe in it.  Let me continue the toaster example...

Say someone wrote a book (someone you don't know) that said there's a toaster in every box you come upon unexpectedly.  Is that good enough to go on?  Say they used the argument 'well, the box is big enough to fit a toaster'; is that good enough?  What if a million people ALL said there was a toaster in the box, but not one of them had ever seen the box prior to saying there was a toaster in it; is that good enough?  No, no, no.  It's not good enough.  This is the same thing with God.  You don't know anything about God that wasn't told to you or that you read in a book.  You have no evidence at all. You just don't.  There's no evidence that leads to the conclusion that God is real. 

It's all fake, zele.  Sorry.   

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 08:31:44 PM
I'm trying to jump in here at the best spot.  There were 2 crosses near to the cross Jesus was nailed to and historians can't identify clearly who those guys were.  They are typical....The one said:  If you are the Christ, take us down from this cross (he might as well have asked:" heal this amputee"), the other (facing certain death) said: remember me.  If you know the scripture, you're gonna die.... 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:01:30 PM
zele

A couple of comments. First, keep in mind that no two christians are ever alike, so we often have to go through a vetting process to figure out which parts of the bible a newbie likes, and which parts he or she doesn't like. We're not too structured as we parry and dodge fresh meat, so it may come across as disorganized, which it probably is.

In the meantime, we tend to make assumption based on each of our individual versions of a generic christian. Please be patient. It's not our fault there are so many different kinds of you.

As for the amputee question, please keep in mind that we have had many insightless conversations with theists of all stripes about this particular issue, and it is getting old. Again, we have to contend with a variety of custom christian viewpoints, and we end up spending pages and pages just parsing the claims and taking aspirin to ward off theist-caused headaches. The issue is most certainly not off the table, but please don't expect a plethora of enthusiastic atheists to respond in such a way that you get a good fight out of the deal. You are giving the question more importance than the rest of us. We would change the name of the site if we had a chance, but the owner isn't in any way inclined to do that.

I, for one, am not an atheist because I disbelieve the bible. I am an atheist because I trust that science is on the right track, and so far, science hasn't found any definitive proof of a god. Nor a need for one. Obviously that is in part an opinion, but hey, I'm allowed.

I am not a theist because none of the many religions or many denominations have offered up anything that is the least bit believable to me. And that is key. Because belief is the bottom line for most of them.

I have often asked how a fake religion would differ from one that had a real christian god behind it, and nobody has ever tried to answer. Why a real god would insist on belief, just the way all the fake religions do, is just too weird to me to be believable. And the truth of a true religion should kind of, you know, provide consistency not only within itself but within the reality we all experience. And, unless you count very loose generic descriptions of human foibles, the bible offers up nothing else that aligns with reality, unless wishful thinking is an innate human trait.

We have a term we use around here, SPAG, which means "self projection as god". We tend to start interpreting the individual versions of your religion as the above-mentioned wishful thinking of each believer, who accepts, rejects and invents the type of religion he or she is most comfortable with. And that individual versions tend to be a pretty good mirror of who or what that person is inside. Really, really sweet people who are christians will tell us that we aren't going to hell because their god would never punish anyone for an eternity, and asshole christians will insist we are all going to fry forever because we are worthless crap, unworthy of their venerated savior and/or his daddy.

I know exactly why god doesn't heal amputees. He doesn't exist. That explains everything. And until someone can at least empirically demonstrate that christians have better, happier, healthier lives, that they experience fewer premature deaths, survive natural disasters at a higher rate or otherwise demonstrate that they experience real world advantages, I am not likely to take any variation of the tale seriously.

So while we non-believers here try to figure out which parts of the bible you find convenient, which parts you consider allegory and/or metaphor or fable or just plain right or wrong, we envy you for getting to argue with us, a group that is much more coherent because we don't have to squabble a lot over whether chloroplasts in plants are part of the photosynthetic process or to ward off lightening. We don't have to worry that gravity is only a theory as we aim our spacecraft at Mars and land them there. We don't have to divide physics into two churches because half the parishioners think string theory is correct and the other half don't. We all get to play nice together without building separate buildings to worship our personal take on atmospheric factors and/or fossils. Those doing the science do the best they can with current and new knowledge, while the rest of us, who are cheering them on, do our best not to get suckered into religious silliness which accomplishes nothing, if you don't count jihads and stuff.

If you want to argue, there are plenty of us here who will do that. But you'll be disappointed if you think that you automatically know what our issues are.

Edit: for clarity, next to last paragraph.
]
Huh? You don't know what you're issues are?  All mutations are deleterious (real, observable, science)......that's all the science you need to know that we started form some singular point.....a point that can be nothing other than a singular point (call it creation).  With all observable, scientific observational mutations being deleterious, how can anything "evolve"?. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 09:05:25 PM
I'm trying to jump in here at the best spot.  There were 2 crosses near to the cross Jesus was nailed to and historians can't identify clearly who those guys were.  They are typical....The one said:  If you are the Christ, take us down from this cross (he might as well have asked:" heal this amputee"), the other (facing certain death) said: remember me.  If you know the scripture, you're gonna die....

Do you believe everything you read in ancient books? Why do you believe this one? Why should anyone take it as an authority on anything? Simply quoting the bible (or paraphrasing) doesn't make it's claims true.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:06:16 PM
Welcome, Median.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:14:41 PM
I'm trying to jump in here at the best spot.  There were 2 crosses near to the cross Jesus was nailed to and historians can't identify clearly who those guys were.  They are typical....The one said:  If you are the Christ, take us down from this cross (he might as well have asked:" heal this amputee"), the other (facing certain death) said: remember me.  If you know the scripture, you're gonna die....

Do you believe everything you read in ancient books? Why do you believe this one? Why should anyone take it as an authority on anything? Simply quoting the bible (or paraphrasing) doesn't make it's claims true.

No, not all ancient books.  But Newton wrote the Principia, which, all of our current mechanics (the power to run your computer, car, bridge you drive over, etc.) I use regularly designing heat pumps, etc.  But, you are referring to the "Bible" I'm sure.  Yes I take that as accurate.  From a intellectual stand point, you should read "The Case for Christ".  I didn't read that until after I believed, but it's good.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 09:16:33 PM
Huh? You don't know what you're issues are?  All mutations are deleterious (real, observable, science)......that's all the science you need to know that we started form some singular point.....a point that can be nothing other than a singular point (call it creation).  With all observable, scientific observational mutations being deleterious, how can anything "evolve"?.

This is called the fallacy of a Complex Question. It makes an assumption that the answerer must assume in order to answer the question. I reject your premise that all mutations are "deleterious". You're quite mistaken. Have you ever even taken one biological anthropology course? How about a biology class in general? Ever talked to any biologists regarding this claim of yours? I hear a resounding ignorance gong coming.

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html (http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html)
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoHumBenMutations.html (http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoHumBenMutations.html)


EDIT:

Btw, the subject of evolution is a complete red-herring to whether a god exists. Even if all of the overwhelming evidence for evolutionary biology were overturned it wouldn't (in any way) give license to your religious assumptions. AT BEST you would have to answer, "I don't know" - not "God did it" b/c that is a non-answer. It explains nothing.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:19:23 PM
Give me a few minutes please....I'm going to check out your links......I'll be back in a few.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 09:21:54 PM
No, not all ancient books.  But Newton wrote the Principia, which, all of our current mechanics (the power to run your computer, car, bridge you drive over, etc.) I use regularly designing heat pumps, etc.  But, you are referring to the "Bible" I'm sure.  Yes I take that as accurate.  From a intellectual stand point, you should read "The Case for Christ".  I didn't read that until after I believed, but it's good.

The list of Christian apologetics books I've read is nearly just as long as all others in my collection. I argued to "defend the faith" for nearly 15 years. Yes, I've read The Case for Christ, along with many many others (when I was a believe) and it's filled with fallacies, erroneous arguments, and misinformation.

Why would you first assume the bible is "the word of God" and then go about reading books that agree with your assumption. Don't you find that a bit backwards?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:30:47 PM
First let me quote from your link:

"Laboratory adaptive evolution can provide key information to address a wide range of issues in evolutionary biology. Such studies have been limited thus far by the inability to readily detect mutations on a genome-scale in evolved microbial strains. This limitation has now been overcome by recently-developed genome sequencing technology that readily allows us to identify all accumulated mutations that appear during laboratory adaptive evolution. In this study, we evolved Escherichia coli K-12 MG1655 on a non-native carbon source, L-1,2-propanediol (L-1,2-PDO) for approximately 700 generations. We found that; i) Experimental evolution of E. coli for approximately 700 generations in 1,2-PDO-supplemented minimal medium revealed the acquisition of the ability to use L-1,2-PDO as the sole carbon and energy source, from no growth at all initially, to a growth rate of 0.35 h(-1), ii) Six mutations detected by whole genome re-sequencing were accumulated in the evolved E. coli mutant over the course of adaptive evolution on L-1,2-PDO, iii) Five of six mutations were within coding regions, with IS5 insertion between two fuc regulons, iv) Two major mutations (mutations in fucO and its promoter) involved in L-1,2-PDO catabolism appeared early during adaptive evolution, v) Multiple defined knock-in mutant strains with all mutations had growth rates essentially matching that of the evolved strain. These results provide insight into the genetic basis underlying microbial evolution to growth on the non-native substrate. PMID: 20435762 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] "

This is where I get my evidence for creation.  For these guys to get there "proof" of evolution, they need human involved experimentation (cloning, etc.) for their results.  When they cloned "Dolly" it was a slam dunk.  They don't talk about why Dolly died.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:35:39 PM
Also, they have hybrids that get us over 200 bushel/acre corn using the same science discussed in the e-coli strains.  We can make any strain you want.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:37:46 PM
Actual observations on the genome level are deleterious.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:40:38 PM
Huh?...whats "laboratory adoptive"?  220 bushel per acre????
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 09:43:01 PM
I asked you three direct questions and you managed to dodge each and every one of them. Why?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 09:56:50 PM
Three direct...OK.....let me figure this out:

" that the answerer must assume in order to answer the question. I reject your premise that all mutations are "deleterious". You're quite mistaken. Have you ever even taken one biological anthropology course? How about a biology class in general? Ever talked to any biologists regarding this claim of yours? I hear a resounding ignorance gong coming."

Are these the "3" questions?

I'll assume they are.  No. I'm an engineer who has researched/read extensively on the subject.   Does that make me wrong?   What are your credentials, thus making you an expert?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 10:03:54 PM

This is where I get my evidence for creation.  For these guys to get there "proof" of evolution, they need human involved experimentation (cloning, etc.) for their results.  When they cloned "Dolly" it was a slam dunk.  They don't talk about why Dolly died.

Ah, so your "evidence for creation" is one big argument from ignorance fallacy. "I can't imagine how it happened any other way. Therefore God did it" or "It's just impossible that it happened any other way then the way I have in my head. So God did it."

Both of these are irrational, and attempting to explain a mystery by yet another big mystery doesn't explain anything.

The funny part is, absolutely NONE of this has to do with whether or not your alleged god exists. Lots of Christians accept the science of evolution, and common descent, (ever hear of Dr. Ken Miller at Brown University?). So the point is moot as to proving your case regarding a deity.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: JeffPT on June 20, 2013, 10:08:58 PM
Huh? You don't know what you're issues are?  All mutations are deleterious (real, observable, science)......that's all the science you need to know that we started form some singular point.....a point that can be nothing other than a singular point (call it creation).  With all observable, scientific observational mutations being deleterious, how can anything "evolve"?.

This is absolutely false.  The mutations we have can be neutral, bad, or good.  The bulk of them happen to be bad, but if something as simple as the DNA strand that codes for one photoreceptor has a mutation and suddenly makes 2, you've got a beneficial mutation for something that benefits from being able to sense light in some form or another.  You can't track those small mutations as they happen because the benefit or the detraction of a mutation totally depends on the environment in which it occurs. 

There is some debate as to whether it happens more often in larger chunks where you get an extremely rare thing like 2 simultaneous mutations that cause a massive change that is beneficial to the organism. This theory is called punctuated equilibrium and a perfect example is the Lenski experiment.  Check it out and then try telling us that all mutations are deleterious with a straight face. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

If you don't understand it, basically what happened is that they were growing E-coli strains for many years using a citrate broth with some glucose in it.  Wild E-coli can't feed off the citrate, but it does eat the glucose.  Somewhere in one of the many thousands of strains they grew, one strain experienced a genetic mutation that allowed for the E-coli to start feeding off the citrate and the population of that batch exploded above the others.  They even located where the genetic mutation happened.  If you can't accept that as a beneficial mutation, then I don't know what else to tell you.  It's a slam dunk. 

When you say 'all mutations are deleterious', I really don't think you're taking into account the environment in which they happen.  A good example of how a single gene mutation can be both good AND bad (depending where you are geographically) is Sickle Cell Anemia. This condition is a single mutation that causes a problem with the blood cells that can shorten the life span to somewhere near 45 years (still old enough to have offspring) BUT... having this trait also makes you vastly, VASTLY more resistant to malaria.  So go figure... where do most of the people who get Sickle Cell have ancestry?  You guessed it... tropical regions where malaria was prevalent.  People who had Sickle Cell had a distinct survival advantage over those who did not have Sickle Cell in tropical areas due to high malaria cases, but those who had Sickle Cell in areas where malaria was not prevalent, it was just considered a bad disease.  The people who were exposed to malaria (that had the Sickle Cell mutation) had a massive survival advantage over those who didn't and they passed that genetic mutation on to their children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease

Evolution is a valid theory. 

I'll assume they are.  No. I'm an engineer who has researched/read extensively on the subject.   Does that make me wrong?   What are your credentials, thus making you an expert?

I have also read extensively on the subject and I have a medical background and found your assessment to be horribly misguided.  Have you read anything by someone who wasn't a Christian?  Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review?   

Science doesn't give a shit whether or not you and I agree on the existence of an invisible sky man.  It's only interested in what it finds.  Look at what the people doing the science and presenting it to other scientists are saying.  Mutations can and are beneficial sometimes.  It's just a lot more rare and it has to be taken in geographical / environmental context. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:17:34 PM
There is only one text.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 10:22:47 PM
Three direct...OK.....let me figure this out:

" that the answerer must assume in order to answer the question. I reject your premise that all mutations are "deleterious". You're quite mistaken. Have you ever even taken one biological anthropology course? How about a biology class in general? Ever talked to any biologists regarding this claim of yours? I hear a resounding ignorance gong coming."

Are these the "3" questions?

I'll assume they are.  No. I'm an engineer who has researched/read extensively on the subject.   Does that make me wrong?   What are your credentials, thus making you an expert?

This is exactly my point. Neither you, nor I, are experts on evolutionary biology. At best, your answer should be one of agnosticism on the subject. And yes, those were questions. Did you miss the question marks after the sentences?

Now, what is this "extensive research" you claim to have done? I'll ask again. Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses? Have you talked to any evolutionary biologists? What disinterested investigation have you participated in? Have you tried to best represent the opposite side of what you believe regarding this? If all you've done is sit at home and read books/articles, you haven't done enough. Ever hear of confirmation bias? This is why we have peer review. But perhaps you don't care about that. Perhaps personal bias doesn't concern you when it comes to science (which is of course why lone wolf "study" isn't sufficient in science). If this is so for you, why should anyone listen to what you have to say?

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:23:10 PM
'Evolution is a valid theory."

And a creation theory isn't?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:25:04 PM
Three direct...OK.....let me figure this out:

" that the answerer must assume in order to answer the question. I reject your premise that all mutations are "deleterious". You're quite mistaken. Have you ever even taken one biological anthropology course? How about a biology class in general? Ever talked to any biologists regarding this claim of yours? I hear a resounding ignorance gong coming."

Are these the "3" questions?

I'll assume they are.  No. I'm an engineer who has researched/read extensively on the subject.   Does that make me wrong?   What are your credentials, thus making you an expert?

This is exactly my point. Neither you, nor I, are experts on evolutionary biology. At best, your answer should be one of agnosticism on the subject. And yes, those were questions. Did you miss the question marks after the sentences?

Now, what is this "extensive research" you claim to have done? I'll ask again. Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses? Have you talked to any evolutionary biologists? What disinterested investigation have you participated in? Have you tried to best represent the opposite side of what you believe regarding this? If all you've done is sit at home and read books/articles, you haven't done enough. Ever hear of confirmation bias? This is why we have peer review. But perhaps you don't care about that. Perhaps personal bias doesn't concern you when it comes to science (which is of course why lone wolf "study" isn't sufficient in science). If this is so for you, why should anyone listen to what you have to say?

I asked you first......what are you credentials?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:35:19 PM
Hurry up guys.... I gotta go.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 10:39:50 PM
'Evolution is a valid theory."

And a creation theory isn't?

You do know that a theory is the HIGHEST point in science, don't you? Ever hear of the theory of gravity? Creationism is NOT a theory. It is an 'hypothesis' (at BEST) and has absolutely no scientific or observational backing. That is why creationists are busy lobbying congress and creating "wedge" strategies (know what that is?)  instead of doing real scientific investigation or submitting evidence  (ever hear of Phillip Johnson at the Discovery Institute?).
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 10:44:21 PM

I asked you first......what are you credentials?

Now you are just a plain liar. NO, I ASKED YOU FIRST and you admitted that you have no scientific background. Please go back and read my first three questions. I'm going to assume you've never taken any biology courses, or you wouldn't be arguing this way. And since neither of us is an expert in biology (yes I admit I'm not an expert) then there should be a little bit more humility in the air. However, I suppose that you have a lot invested in this religion thing of yours and it would really cost you a lot to lose it. I however do not have any vested interested in leading the evidence. I argue that we should follow the evidence where it leads (along with sound reasoning). Agreed?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:46:17 PM
 ":Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review? "

You need to read the book "Genetic Enthalpy":   Similar to universal enthalpy ( second "law" of thermodynamics): but I digress.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:49:51 PM
'Evolution is a valid theory."

And a creation theory isn't?

You do know that a theory is the HIGHEST point in science, don't you? Ever hear of the theory of gravity? Creationism is NOT a theory. It is an 'hypothesis' (at BEST) and has absolutely no scientific or observational backing. That is why creationists are busy lobbying congress and creating "wedge" strategies (know what that is?)  instead of doing real scientific investigation or submitting evidence  (ever hear of Phillip Johnson at the Discovery Institute?).

No,  your wrong.  If Me Ching is right....He's right.  Doesn't matter his credentials.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 10:50:08 PM
":Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review? "

You need to read the book "Genetic Enthalpy":   Similar to universal enthalpy ( second "law" of thermodynamics): but I digress.

Are you really that lazy, and arrogant, that you can't post the argument here so we can discuss it? I could just tell you to go read a hundred books. Would that do any good for this discussion? I'm interested in rational interchange. If you have solid evidence for "creation" please present it.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:51:59 PM
Tell me.....what is your pedigree.....what are your credentials......your premise on being right is our credentials  being not "right".,
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 10:53:57 PM


No,  your wrong.  If Me Ching is right....He's right.  Doesn't matter his credentials.


WTF? Did I ever say someone is wrong MERELY because they have no credentials? I didn't, did I? What I said was that if neither of us has credentials in biology then some humility is in order. Did you read a word I wrote?

Regarding Phillip Johnson, I was asking you due to his "wedge" strategy! Please try to stay within my words.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 10:54:57 PM
":Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review? "

You need to read the book "Genetic Enthalpy":   Similar to universal enthalpy ( second "law" of thermodynamics): but I digress.

Are you really that lazy, and arrogant, that you can't post the argument here so we can discuss it? I could just tell you to go read a hundred books. Would that do any good for this discussion? I'm interested in rational interchange. If you have solid evidence for "creation" please present it.

Come on.....who's being lazy?????   Your side is supposed to have it all figured out......
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:01:28 PM
Tell me.....what is your pedigree.....what are your credentials......your premise on being right is our credentials  being not "right".,

WRONG. You haven't presented a shred of evidence for your assertion regarding "creation", and my not accepting of your claim doesn't require credentials. However, if you want others to think the way you do (aka - that we were "created") then you'll have to bring forth demonstrable evidence (just like everyone else in science must do).

As I said before, neither of us have credentials in biological science - which is exactly why 1) we ought to be more humble regarding subjects we have not fully studied, and 2) we should be admitting when we don't know things. Are you willing to admit that you don't know how humans got here?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:04:39 PM

Come on.....who's being lazy?????   Your side is supposed to have it all figured out......

HA! You have me confused with your church dude. That is what religion does - pretend to have all the answers by assuming a holy book is "the word of God" (whatever that means). What hubris.


Btw, my "side"? Really? So you think all science is against you then? WOW.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 11:11:41 PM
I don't have all the answers.  When did I say I did?  I asked for your credentials......I'm still waiting.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:14:49 PM
I don't have all the answers.  When did I say I did?  I asked for your credentials......I'm still waiting.

I actually already answered. I suppose you just can't read, can you? But since you seem to be the one making the argument that credentials don't matter, why do you keep repeating the question?

Btw, you certainly do seem to be acting as if you have "the answers" regarding evolutionary biology (i.e. - that your conception of evolution is false) even though you've already admitted that you don't have credentials in that field and, by your silence implied, that you haven't taken any courses in the subject.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 11:16:04 PM
WRONG. You haven't presented a shred of evidence for your assertion regarding "creation", and my not accepting of your claim doesn't require credentials. However, if you want others to think the way you do (aka - that we were "created") then you'll have to bring forth demonstrable evidence (just like everyone else in science must do).

As I said before, neither of us have credentials in biological science - which is exactly why 1) we ought to be more humble regarding subjects we have not fully studied, and 2) we should be admitting when we don't know things. Are you willing to admit that you don't know how humans got here?
[/quote]
Look at the trees.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:18:31 PM
Look at the trees.

LOL. The trees! Yes! I've seen them. And?



p.s. - please learn how to use the quote function.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 11:25:43 PM
So I have to bring forth evidence that we are created and you can formulate your argument against any burden of proof....you win.  Ahh....OK. Genesis 1:1 In The Beginning..... Sorry....that's the only truth I have.  You have about a billion years of whatever......
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 11:29:45 PM
A billion years of observable science that says all mutations are deleterious.....good luck with that.  Really, only about 6000 years old.....just ask our sun.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:32:30 PM
So I have to bring forth evidence that we are created and you can formulate your argument against any burden of proof....you win.  Ahh....OK. Genesis 1:1 In The Beginning..... Sorry....that's the only truth I have.  You have about a billion years of whatever......

There is no burden of proof for the answer "I don't know". It's actually quite appalling that in all of this alleged "research" you claim to have done you didn't realize this pinnacle of science (aka - what drives science is not knowing things and then looking for answers - not assuming a conclusion in advance and then practicing confirmation bias).

Regarding Genesis 1, no sorry. That's not evidence. That is a CLAIM written in an old book. Again, another appalling discovery here. In your studies you failed to understand the difference between claims and evidence. Why am I not surprised [ret].
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 11:38:21 PM
So I have to bring forth evidence that we are created and you can formulate your argument against any burden of proof....you win.  Ahh....OK. Genesis 1:1 In The Beginning..... Sorry....that's the only truth I have.  You have about a billion years of whatever......

There is no burden of proof for the answer "I don't know". It's actually quite appalling that in all of this alleged "research" you claim to have done you didn't realize this pinnacle of science (aka - what drives science is not knowing things and then looking for answers - not assuming a conclusion in advance and then practicing confirmation bias).

Regarding Genesis 1, no sorry. That's not evidence. That is a CLAIM written in an old book. Again, another appalling discovery here. In your studies you failed to understand the difference between claims and evidence. Why am I not surprised.

I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require.  You have to believe it.  You will never believe unless you believe.  Do you believe that what you believe is really real? 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:38:32 PM
A billion years of observable science that says all mutations are deleterious.....good luck with that.  Really, only about 6000 years old.....just ask our sun.

We've already refuted your claim that all mutations are not beneficial. Either you are ignoring the evidence or you are damn dishonest. I say both, but not even Johnson, Dembski, or Behe go this far. People in your own camp are disagreeing with you.

And 6000 years old? Are you actually attempting to make the argument that earth is only 6000 years old? You really have no clue what you're talking about, do you? Please go take some science courses and come back when you are better informed.

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on June 20, 2013, 11:40:19 PM
See u tomorrow....bye for now.  Love u man.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:44:08 PM

I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require.  You have to believe it.  You will never believe unless you believe.  Do you believe that what you believe is really real?

You're talking about faith, which is not a pathway to truth. Faith is unreliable for separating fact from fiction. Anyone can just have faith in anything. It does nothing to decipher what is true from what is false. Why would you believe the bible, or anything for that matter, on faith?

To your question, that would depend entirely upon what you mean by "believe" and what you mean by "real".


"You will never believe unless you believe"?? A tautology as an answer? Really?





Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 20, 2013, 11:45:44 PM
See u tomorrow....bye for now.  Love u man.

Oh yes, I really feel that Christian love coming from your posts...not.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: magicmiles on June 20, 2013, 11:55:56 PM

A tautology as an answer? Really?

And as your response &)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jdawg70 on June 21, 2013, 06:51:45 PM
I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require.  You have to believe it.  You will never believe unless you believe.  Do you believe that what you believe is really real? 
Please describe any other claim that you can apply that thinking to and determine as false.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: median on June 22, 2013, 12:23:20 AM
I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require.  You have to believe it.  You will never believe unless you believe.  Do you believe that what you believe is really real? 
Please describe any other claim that you can apply that thinking to and determine as false.

Yes, religion always requires a double standard.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: nogodsforme on June 23, 2013, 06:23:36 PM
Mutations can be both bad and good at the same time, depending on the environment, like the sickle cell example. The mutation that causes pale skin (less melanin) so people can get vitamin D from the sun is very beneficial-- in high latitude climates with little sunlight. In tropical climates with stronger sunlight, exposure by pale people with less melanin can lead to burns and skin cancer. But darker brown people have fewer problems with sunshine.

Makes sense only in terms of evolution, but not in terms of "creation". Were the original humans, ie Adam and Eve,  "created" in the low latitiudes where they could survive with no clothes, etc-- but with pale skins as is often depicted in biblical illustrations? That would make no sense.

If people just stayed right where their ancestors evolved, there would not be these problems!  ;)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Mrjason on June 24, 2013, 04:02:01 AM
If people just stayed right where their ancestors evolved, there would not be these problems!  ;)
That's a bit right wing for you![1]
I think [wiki=Nick Griffin]some idiots[/wiki] actually believe that white British people evolved from British monkeys
 1. joking of course ;)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: magicmiles on June 24, 2013, 04:27:34 AM

I think [wiki=Nick Griffin]some idiots[/wiki] actually believe that white British people evolved from British monkeys

Maybe it would explain the stiff upper lips?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 09:11:58 PM
So, your refutation of "all mutations are deleterious" is they "can be both good and bad".  If there is such a thing as a good one....has there ever been an observed new species?  Your proof is e-coli becoming more resistant to antibiotics (best I've seen), just like humans becoming more resistant to influenza post 1914 or so, or Darwin's Finch's, or just like mid-western weeds/bugs becoming more resistant to herbicides/pesticides.  Answer me this....are they not still e-coli? humans? Finch's? weeds/bugs?  Just because a population, through what Darwin called "natural selection", survives does not prove evolution.  Darwin couldn't have gotten away with his theory if it wasn't tainted with some natural laws.

Oh, I forgot, natural laws "evolved". 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 09:36:13 PM
Mutations can be both bad and good at the same time, depending on the environment, like the sickle cell example. The mutation that causes pale skin (less melanin) so people can get vitamin D from the sun is very beneficial-- in high latitude climates with little sunlight. In tropical climates with stronger sunlight, exposure by pale people with less melanin can lead to burns and skin cancer. But darker brown people have fewer problems with sunshine.

Makes sense only in terms of evolution, but not in terms of "creation". Were the original humans, ie Adam and Eve,  "created" in the low latitiudes where they could survive with no clothes, etc-- but with pale skins as is often depicted in biblical illustrations? That would make no sense.

If people just stayed right where their ancestors evolved, there would not be these problems!  ;)

Adam and Eve were not "white".  They were in the image of God.  Jesus was middle eastern....not white....so I have no clue where you guys come in with Christianity being a race thing.  White people are likely descendants of Japeth....not the line of Jesus.   

There was no such thing as a Golden Retriever in the 1,600s, but they're still a dog, red, different from other dogs.  But they're still a dog.

I'd rather argue "all mutations are deleterious", like the Golden Retriever (but facts allude you guys) .  I loved the article by one of your guys that the human race is getting (evolving) stoopider. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 09:53:58 PM
Adam and Eve were not "white".  They were in the image of God.  Jesus was middle eastern....not white....so I have no clue where you guys come in with Christianity being a race thing.  White people are likely descendants of Japeth....not the line of Jesus.

So was the image of God white, brown, black, yellow...?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 09:57:05 PM
Just like the Physical 2nd "law" of thermodynamics...there is a genetic entropy.  Like the sun, moon, universe, mutations....it's all deleterious.  It all started with...never mind.  I think this is for your side to explain.  We have to keep explaining why everything started at a high point and has been going down hill ever since.  I want you to explain how everything started at a low point and has been evolving uphill ever since. 

98% of the fossils are sea creatures...."And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures,": Genesis 1:20.  Ah never mind. Just like recent archeological finds such as Nineveh (since it wasn't found earlier it was proof against the Bible, your dad's argument I guess), and recently found Egyptian army equipment on the bottom of the Red Sea, just a coincidence....never mind....move along.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 09:58:31 PM
Adam and Eve were not "white".  They were in the image of God.  Jesus was middle eastern....not white....so I have no clue where you guys come in with Christianity being a race thing.  White people are likely descendants of Japeth....not the line of Jesus.

So was the image of God white, brown, black, yellow...?

The color of "burned bronze" whatever that is.  If it matters to you...you're racist.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 10:00:47 PM
Which colour it is, doesn't matter to me.  I asked the question to make a point.  That somehow a genetic pool of 2 people managed to produce all of the diversity of the modern-day human genome, however, is a problem for your story-book that you should care about.

Whatever genes code for "burned bronze" skin, why don't all humans have those genes today?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:01:58 PM
I like to think of it as being a mix of all the colors of humanity...and all colors since then are deleterious (Golden Retriever Example).  But it's just a thought.   I have to settle with what the Bible says...burned bronze...whatever that is.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 10:02:25 PM
Just like the Physical 2nd "law" of thermodynamics...there is a genetic entropy.  Like the sun, moon, universe, mutations....it's all deleterious. ...

That is not what the 2nd law of thermodynamics says.  That is not what entropy is.

Why are you using these terms without learning what they mean?  That's irresponsible of you.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 10:05:29 PM
I like to think of it as being a mix of all the colors of humanity...and all colors since then are deleterious (Golden Retriever Example).  But it's just a thought.

Human skin colour is not like mixing paint, where you add a bit of this and a bit of that to a blend.  Have you considered learning how this works?  It wouldn't even directly require you to violate your faith in order to learn about genetics.

I have to settle with what the Bible says...burned bronze...whatever that is.

You don't have to do that at all.  Scores of Christians know they do not settle with what the Bible says.  Why don't you know it?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:09:47 PM
Which colour it is, doesn't matter to me.  I asked the question to make a point.  That somehow a genetic pool of 2 people managed to produce all of the diversity of the modern-day human genome, however, is a problem for your story-book that you should care about.

Whatever genes code for "burned bronze" skin, why don't all humans have those genes today?

Are you kidding me?????  So your saying that the chances of the multiple/parallel lines of evolution that it would take to give us our "diversity", given the statistical impossibilities of it even happening to begin with, give us our diversity???  I'll go with the perfect pair to start and going down hill from there.

Do you believe in global warming?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:14:40 PM
I like to think of it as being a mix of all the colors of humanity...and all colors since then are deleterious (Golden Retriever Example).  But it's just a thought.

Human skin colour is not like mixing paint, where you add a bit of this and a bit of that to a blend.  Have you considered learning how this works?  It wouldn't even directly require you to violate your faith in order to learn about genetics.

I have to settle with what the Bible says...burned bronze...whatever that is.


You don't have to do that at all.  Scores of Christians know they do not settle with what the Bible says.  Why don't you know it?
There are scores of stupid Christians just like there are scores of stupid atheists. 

And though I am a 2nd law physical science, Newtonian world view (understanding relativity somewhat) guy, I think I understand genetics best when I read about genetic entropy.  It was only then it made sense.  We started at perfect point and everything has been deleterious since then.  Just like the 2nd law of Thermo.  Just cause we have internet, ipods, etc.....Early man was smarter than us.  Your guy said so....We're getting stoopider.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 10:18:49 PM
Are you kidding me?????  So your saying that the chances of the multiple/parallel lines of evolution that it would take to give us our "diversity", given the statistical impossibilities of it even happening to begin with, give us our diversity???  I'll go with the perfect pair to start and going down hill from there.

Do you believe in global warming?

This has nothing to do with what I said.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:21:37 PM
Are you kidding me?????  So your saying that the chances of the multiple/parallel lines of evolution that it would take to give us our "diversity", given the statistical impossibilities of it even happening to begin with, give us our diversity???  I'll go with the perfect pair to start and going down hill from there.

Do you believe in global warming?

This has nothing to do with what I said.

Fine...how does genetics (mixing paint) affect either argument?  Evolution or Creation?  I think it favors creation. 
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 10:29:46 PM
There are scores of stupid Christians just like there are scores of stupid atheists.

Yes there are, and you don't have to be one of them.  You, too, can join the ranks of educated Christians.

And though I am a 2nd law physical science, Newtonian world view (understanding relativity somewhat) guy, I think I understand genetics best when I read about genetic entropy.  It was only then it made sense.

And where did you read this?  Because you clearly don't know how the 2nd law works...nor do you want to.

We started at perfect point and everything has been deleterious since then.  Just like the 2nd law of Thermo.

That is not at all like the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Just cause we have internet, ipods, etc.....Early man was smarter than us.  Your guy said so....We're getting stoopider.

Whose guy?  What are you even talking about?  I mean, you may be getting dumber, but what are you basing any of this on?

You never answered this:

You don't have to do that at all.  Scores of Christians know they do not settle with what the Bible says.  Why don't you know it?

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 10:31:29 PM
Fine...how does genetics (mixing paint) affect either argument?  Evolution or Creation?  I think it favors creation.

I mentioned it because it has to do with what you said about two humans somehow possessing all of the present-day skin colours as a sort of blend.  It was a profoundly ignorant statement that you must have been very proud of.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:36:09 PM
I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require.  You have to believe it.  You will never believe unless you believe.  Do you believe that what you believe is really real? 
Please describe any other claim that you can apply that thinking to and determine as false.

Yes, religion always requires a double standard.

That's not what I'm saying.  If you were there when Jesus was dying on the cross....you wouldn't have believed.  There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify.  One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise.  The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels.  They are historical fact, but just general guys.  Just like there are two kinds of people in the world...Heal amputees or remember me.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:43:09 PM
Fine...how does genetics (mixing paint) affect either argument?  Evolution or Creation?  I think it favors creation.

I mentioned it because it has to do with what you said about two humans somehow possessing all of the present-day skin colours as a sort of blend.  It was a profoundly ignorant statement that you must have been very proud of.

Not ignorant based on scientific observations.  Two hundred fifty bushel an acre corn came from corn (50 bushel and acre maybe).  The different skin/eye color comes from an original design that become a deleterious mutation (very close to level since the information stored in DNA is billions of bits of information).

So, what is your understanding?  As usual, we have to explain while you call us ignorant.  We just don't believe the way you do so we're ignorant, right?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:47:18 PM
So, from an evolutionary standpoint, how come we have different skin and eye colors?  Didn't Darwin explain survival of the fittest well enough?  So all are fit.  I guess benevolence evolved along with the weaker white race.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: lotanddaughters on July 08, 2013, 10:52:02 PM
If you were there when Jesus was dying on the cross....you wouldn't have believed.
I would have believed as much as the experience allowed me to believe. 



There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify.  One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise.  The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels.  They are historical fact, but just general guys.
No. You need to give historians more credit than that. When you post nonsense like this on a forum such as this, it is more than laughable.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:55:13 PM
If you were there when Jesus was dying on the cross....you wouldn't have believed.
I would have believed as much as the experience allowed me to believe. 



There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify.  One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise.  The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels.  They are historical fact, but just general guys.
No. You need to give historians more credit than that. When you post nonsense like this on a forum such as this, it is more than laughable.

I've got the double standard?

You haven't studied the history (or know of historians of Jesus time)...obviously.

Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 10:56:46 PM
If you were there when Jesus was dying on the cross....you wouldn't have believed.
I would have believed as much as the experience allowed me to believe. 



There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify.  One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise.  The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels.  They are historical fact, but just general guys.
No. You need to give historians more credit than that. When you post nonsense like this on a forum such as this, it is more than laughable.

I've got the double standard?

You haven't studied the history (or know of historians of Jesus time)...obviously.

Sorry...couldn't help myself
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 11:02:57 PM
Not ignorant based on scientific observations.  Two hundred fifty bushel an acre corn came from corn (50 bushel and acre maybe).

Yes ignorant.  It did not come from a single corn genome that also underwent no beneficial mutation, which is the Biblical scenario for human beings.

Also it's not just a genetic bottleneck at Adam and Eve - there's also the genetic bottleneck of Noah's family to worry about.  Supposedly all our genes for all our different eye, hair, and skin colours, all came from Noah's family.  I guess they were all mixed in there with a power blender.  Yeah.  Something like that.  Not with discrete genes, but as some sort of mixing of substances.

Or so you said.

The different skin/eye color comes from an original design that become a deleterious mutation (very close to level since the information stored in DNA is billions of bits of information).

Not deleterious, apparently.  These traits can be pretty adaptive in different environments, as nogodsforme pointed out.  In any case, could you cite the study that produced the above information?

So, what is your understanding?  As usual, we have to explain while you call us ignorant.  We just don't believe the way you do so we're ignorant, right?

My understanding of what?  Please be specific.
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: jtp56 on July 08, 2013, 11:15:15 PM
Not ignorant based on scientific observations.  Two hundred fifty bushel an acre corn came from corn (50 bushel and acre maybe).

Yes ignorant.  It did not come from a single corn genome that also underwent no beneficial mutation, which is the Biblical scenario for human beings.

Also it's not just a genetic bottleneck at Adam and Eve - there's also the genetic bottleneck of Noah's family to worry about.  Supposedly all our genes for all our different eye, hair, and skin colours, all came from Noah's family.  I guess they were all mixed in there with a power blender.  Yeah.  Something like that.  Not with discrete genes, but as some sort of mixing of substances.

Or so you said.

The different skin/eye color comes from an original design that become a deleterious mutation (very close to level since the information stored in DNA is billions of bits of information).

Not deleterious, apparently.  These traits can be pretty adaptive in different environments, as nogodsforme pointed out.  In any case, could you cite the study that produced the above information?

So, what is your understanding?  As usual, we have to explain while you call us ignorant.  We just don't believe the way you do so we're ignorant, right?

My understanding of what?  Please be specific.

250 bu/acre corn beneficial??  It wouldn't last another season without human (hybrid, cross breeding, "genetic engineering") input.  How beneficial is that?  It came from maze.  Without our work, it would be gone in a year.  Wow! evolution is cool.

Ah, you stumbled across the fact of Noah's start to current day genetic influences.   Your guys called it the Noahic Deluge in an attempt to explain an evolutionary/catastrophic event that happened about 4000 years ago... but you must be young, beyond the scientific proof that  there was an asteroid catastrophe that wiped out the dinosaurs, etc. etc.  Just when I though we had it all figured out.  But the theories keep changing.

Traits?, different environments?, I agree 100%, but where is the new species we have observed coming from an existing one.  You claim to understand genetics, how can that happen?

I digress.   
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 11:19:56 PM
So, what is your understanding?

My understanding is that genes are discrete bundles of information rather than substances that can be blended and mixed together as a medium.

As usual, we have to explain while you call us ignorant.  We just don't believe the way you do so we're ignorant, right?

Who is the "us"?  Who is the "you"?  I stand with those who have actually taken time to study the sciences.  That includes educated Christians.  Contrary to your earlier comment, Christians do not become stupid just because they've gained more of an education than what's posted on creationist blogs.

As for who has to explain what, you get to make stuff up and explain it, which is easy because you've made it up.  Whereas I, or others who have worked for an education, actually have to recall material about the real world in order to explain it to you.  The latter takes genuine effort, and those who ignorantly make stuff up and peddle it to the masses have a logistical advantage over those who attempt to spread knowledge.  The former requires less energy, and accepting ignorance - or just believing a bible - requires less thought.

That energy difference is expressed here in the fatigue others have with trying to correct your own random bullshit.

So, from an evolutionary standpoint, how come we have different skin and eye colors?

This is surely not the whole story, but most basically, because those with certain skin or eye colours had more children than others with different skin and eye colours.  There was never a small enough breeding population that only one or two sets of relevant genes existed, so selection had something to work with.  A population inherits the diversity of its ancestors plus whatever random changes occur due to mutation or copying errors, and minus whatever unique genes were in any individuals that didn't manage to breed.

Didn't Darwin explain survival of the fittest well enough?

He didn't explain survival of the fittest at all.  That's not even a phrase he used.  You have been misinformed at best, or you have been lied to, or at worst, you know better and are lying now.

So all are fit.  I guess benevolence evolved along with the weaker white race.

This stems from nothing I have said.  What caused you to type it?
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 11:33:54 PM
250 bu/acre corn beneficial??  It wouldn't last another season without human (hybrid, cross breeding, "genetic engineering") input.  How beneficial is that?  It came from maze.  Without our work, it would be gone in a year.  Wow! evolution is cool.

That's evolution in action.  There's a relatively new environment:  Human-made corn farms.  Maize is ill-suited to that environment.  Only plants that produce a large amount of corn are able to thrive there.  And thrive they do.  That is a beneficial mutation.  "Beneficial" is a situational quality.  What is beneficial in one environment can be harmful in another.  Maize and high-yield corn have different environmental niches, and neither thrives well in the other's niche.

Ah, you stumbled across the fact of Noah's start to current day genetic influences.   Your guys called it the Noahic Deluge in an attempt to explain an evolutionary/catastrophic event that happened about 4000 years ago... but you must be young, beyond the scientific proof that  there was an asteroid catastrophe that wiped out the dinosaurs, etc. etc.  Just when I though we had it all figured out.  But the theories keep changing.

What the fuck are you talking about, and what does it have to do with what I said?  This is part of why explaining things to you can be so frustrating and dispiriting:  You show some indications that you're just trolling, having fun with people and deliberately wasting their time.  The paragraph above is one such indication.

Traits?, different environments?, I agree 100%, but where is the new species we have observed coming from an existing one.  You claim to understand genetics, how can that happen?

I digress.

Yes, you do, because we weren't discussing speciation.  You are changing the topic[1] without saying why.  So, why?
 1. (albeit to a somewhat related one)
Title: Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
Post by: natlegend on July 15, 2013, 07:40:00 AM
Wow. Sorry for digging this up a week after the last post was made but I can't help it, I just read the whole 11 pages today and some[1] of the theists who participated were an extra special type of crazy. My head is spinning. Median, kudos for attempting to engage with jtp56, who did the written equivalent of running around in circles shouting random nonsense words; I myself could not have shown the same restraint as you.
 1. No actually, ALL