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Main Discussion Zone => Biblical Contradictions => Topic started by: GamerGirl on June 09, 2012, 10:57:05 PM

Title: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: GamerGirl on June 09, 2012, 10:57:05 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/2Iue2.png)

"22 [...]And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on June 09, 2012, 11:20:17 PM
Jesus did go to hell, at least in old Catholic lore.. Google "the Harrowing of Hell."
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: GamerGirl on June 10, 2012, 12:31:33 AM
Jesus did go to hell, at least in old Catholic lore.. Google "the Harrowing of Hell."

Okay, but was he at any risk from its fires?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on June 10, 2012, 09:24:28 AM
Quote from: GamerGirl

"22 [...
And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on June 10, 2012, 12:26:23 PM

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Cool, since he wasn't the object of the judgment, he didn't bare the sin and shame of mankind and the whole sacrifice story is stupid bullshit.. I get what you're saying.. NOT!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: sun_king on June 10, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
Oh Brakeman, our fallacy expert will soon have a name for your argument.

Since he is the one making the judgement, his statements are not fallacies!!!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Nam on June 10, 2012, 07:00:31 PM
It's not a contradiction, it's a hypocritical statement.

-Nam
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on June 10, 2012, 08:18:15 PM

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Cool, since he wasn't the object of the judgment, he didn't bare the sin and shame of mankind and the whole sacrifice story is stupid bullshit.. I get what you're saying.. NOT!

FALLACY: Invalid conclusion. Appeal to Ridicule.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Emily on June 10, 2012, 08:29:54 PM

FALLACY: Invalid conclusion. Appeal to Ridicule.

You've said this four times so far. It's no wonder NSC told you to shut the fuck up: you repeat yourself too much.

I know, this will be a FALLACY: Appeal to ridicule.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on June 10, 2012, 08:30:23 PM
 :
It's not a contradiction, it's a hypocritical statement.

-Nam

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quidDestroying the Exception.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on June 10, 2012, 08:31:47 PM

FALLACY: Invalid conclusion. Appeal to Ridicule.

You've said this four times so far. It's no wonder NSC told you to shut the fuck up: you repeat yourself too much.

I actually never used that one with him.

I think it was when he realized that his arguments were based on childish assumptions and leaps of illogic, just like this place, and just couldn't stand to hear how stupid he was anymore.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on June 10, 2012, 08:37:54 PM
Quote

You've said this four times so far. It's no wonder NSC told you to shut the fuck up: you repeat yourself too much.

I know, this will be a FALLACY: Appeal to ridicule.

This is a non sequitur, but how many times have theists - and rightfully so - heard "that's circular reasoning"

You should put it to music.

I haven't made any circular arguments, and I haven't heard an intelligent thought from many of you.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Emily on June 10, 2012, 08:40:39 PM
I haven't made any circular arguments, and I haven't heard an intelligent thought from many of you.

and you keep on repeating youself, and ignoring others' arguments against your points.

Like, Seppuku's for example:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22951.msg512527.html#msg512527
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: sun_king on June 10, 2012, 08:51:24 PM
Euroclydon, what is your opinion on Special Pleading? Thats what you did when you made JC the exception. It was merely a case of special pleading, not "destroying the exception". Try to get your fallacies right once in a while.

Its lame to expect intelligent response to special pleading.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 10, 2012, 09:11:17 PM
Gosh, folks. We have a guy who is both a theist and a labelist. And we're pretty awful, apparently (I assume he refers to us as awfulists).

I don't know what you're reading euroclydon, but stop. (I'm guessing "Logic for Dummies", but I'm guessing he forgot to read "Dummies Books for Dummies" first.)

I know I haven't contributed to the conversation, but that's because when I grow down I want to be just like you...
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Nam on June 10, 2012, 09:37:08 PM
^don't grow too far down, you might get stuck.

-Nam
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Astreja on June 10, 2012, 09:38:45 PM
If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

That may be, Euroclydon, but I can't respect someone who says that something is bad but does it himself.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on June 11, 2012, 08:09:01 AM
FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".
This presumes that Jesus is, in fact, an exception.  This is not the case.  One who stands in judgment must himself not be guilty of the crime he is judging, or else he risks the judgment of hypocrisy.  And certainly, it is a contradiction, which no amount of ex post facto reasoning on your part can negate.  Therefore, the reasoning is sound and your objection ("destroying the exception") is invalid.

In fact, you are using the fallacy of special pleading here; declaring that Jesus is an exception to being judged for his own actions with only the statement that it is "irrational" for the judge to be judged to justify it (which is incorrect; if a judge commits a crime, he should be judged for it, not have it ignored because he's the "exception").  Perhaps you should spend some time making sure that you aren't using fallacies of your own before you start accusing others of fallacies.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: mrbiscoop on June 11, 2012, 08:22:42 AM
Quote from: GamerGirl

"22 [...
And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".
    I knew this was going to happen. You've started posting in other topics but you still can't lose the "Mr Logician" persona. At least when it's a topic you started it's easier to avoid.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: EV on June 11, 2012, 02:59:40 PM
>snip<
FALLACY: Being a dick. And before you say
Quote from: Future Euroclydon
FALLACY: 'ad hominem', appeal to ridicule yadda yadda etc ad infinitum

that's exactly what I intended to do. An intentional logical fallacy.

Seriously, stop indulging in your pseudo-intellectual wanking and come down to earth, you logic-spouting, over-complicated, pompous, deluded tool.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on June 11, 2012, 05:17:27 PM
Clarity should be your goal, not haughtiness.

The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
Bill Watterson


The cartoonist was being sarcastic don't you know?

“Mystification is simple; clarity is the hardest thing of all.”
? Julian Barnes, Flaubert's Parrot

“Writing is thinking. To write well is to think clearly. That's why it's so hard."
? David McCullough

“The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink.”
? George Orwell, Politics and the English Language

“When the meaning is unclear there is no meaning.”

? Marty Rubin

“Whoever knows he is deep, strives for clarity; whoever would like to appear deep to the crowd, strives for obscurity.”
- Friedrich Nietzsche

euroclydon,

 Please avoid blowing smoke up our nether regions and make a concise, clear, reasoned argument. If you can.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Grimm on June 11, 2012, 08:37:13 PM
Quote from: GamerGirl

"22 [...
And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

FALLACY: a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid Destroying the Exception.

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Matt 28:18 "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The reasoning is unsound.

EDITED to change "the reasoning is unsound" from "your reasoning &c".


*SIGH*

Allow me to offer this without biblical support - if you require it, I'll take the time to dig it up, but, frankly, the ideas I'm going to use are very elementary ones.

Assumption:   The bible lays down rules that dictate how men are to act.

Fact:  Included in those rules is the aforementioned statement attributed to Jesus re: fools, and his later statements where he calls others fools.

Fact:  Jesus is the "Son of Man" by his own account, human, born of a human parent and subject to human limitations (he must eat, he sleeps, and he exhibits other human foibles).

Fact:  As a man, Jesus is subject to the same rules that God dictates are true of all men.

Therefore:  Jesus has broken a rule laid down by god.

Caveat:  Jesus's divinity may exempt him from the rule.

Fact:  Nowhere in the bible is this stated; it is brought in from extrabiblical sources and later philosophers attempting to write an apologetic for discrepencies like these.

Therefore:  It requires extrabiblical apologetic to argue that Jesus-as-divine is exempt from the rules laid out within the bible, as it is not stated explicitly.

Corollary:  Destroying the Exception requires the exception be proved to be valid.

Fact:  Jesus cannot be proved an exception with purely biblical sources; see above, and, in addition, note that he is subject to God's will in many other actions, notably going to his own death and acting in certain ways that would bring about that death. 

Corollary:  Special Pleading results when an exception is declared without cause.

Therefore:  Declaring Jesus to be exempt from judgement as he is the judge is, without further evidence, special pleading.

Your argument is offered without evidence for the veracity of your statement, therefore it fails to progress past assertion.  Special Pleading.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on June 11, 2012, 09:54:18 PM
Grim - That was very nice +1
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on July 02, 2012, 01:33:31 AM
I haven't made any circular arguments, and I haven't heard an intelligent thought from many of you.

and you keep on repeating youself, and ignoring others' arguments against your points.

Like, Seppuku's for example:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22951.msg512527.html#msg512527

Oh, should I be replying to others according to yuour satisfaction? Have you nothing but red herrings?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on July 02, 2012, 01:38:21 AM
Euroclydon, what is your opinion on Special Pleading? Thats what you did when you made JC the exception. It was merely a case of special pleading, not "destroying the exception". Try to get your fallacies right once in a while.

Its lame to expect intelligent response to special pleading.

A fallacy exists only when there is insufficient evidence to support the claim.

As king and judge, it is an irrational conclusion to believe that he is a one cast into fire.

There is plenty of textual evidence to suggest that Someone  "greater than the temple" was there.

You are ignorant of the text you are criticizing.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on July 02, 2012, 01:39:54 AM
>snip<
FALLACY: Being a dick. And before you say
Quote from: Future Euroclydon
FALLACY: 'ad hominem', appeal to ridicule yadda yadda etc ad infinitum

that's exactly what I intended to do. An intentional logical fallacy.

Seriously, stop indulging in your pseudo-intellectual wanking and come down to earth, you logic-spouting, over-complicated, pompous, deluded tool.

<unnecessary text removed>  no I shouldn't say that.

mod commentary - No.  No, you shouldn't say that. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on July 02, 2012, 02:43:56 AM
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8157/7485356646_faff71e7c7_b.jpg)

Stop crying like babies and step out into the universe.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on July 02, 2012, 04:19:42 AM
You're here, too.  A bit of logic for you:

Premise #1:  Arguing on this forum means that one has no life.
Premise #2:  Euroclydon argues on this forum.
Conclusion from #1 and #2:  Euroclydon has no life.

The conclusion is false.  Premise #2 is accurate.  Therefore, premise #1 must be false.  Agreed?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Astreja on July 02, 2012, 01:38:46 PM
I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.

Euroclydon, I don't particularly care if you're teaching yourself Linux.  If you don't have anything more substantive to offer us than insults and one-liner rejoinders without explanation or supporting empirical evidence, perhaps you should get thee to a Linux forum and get out of the religious debate game altogether.

In other words, if you don't have time to play, please don't come here for the specific purpose of telling us you don't have time to play, then slagging us with an insult or two and running away again.

It doesn't take much time to compose a thoughtful answer, even if one is crazy-busy.  For instance, I'm writing this with a squirmy, fluffy and very affectionate cat in My lap; there's a music theory book beside Me (got a class this afternoon); I just got off the phone after setting up an appointment with a contractor; and I've got some medical equipment companies to contact on behalf of a relative.  Thou art without excuse.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Grimm on July 02, 2012, 09:30:58 PM
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.
Stop crying like babies and step out into the universe.

... oh good gravy.

Euroclydon, I'm a certified Linux admin and an IT professional managing several thousand users across three states and twelve facilities, most with mission-critical systems.  I read two to three novel-length books a week, and blahblahblah...

If you think that makes me somehow qualified for awesomeness... it doesn't.   Not in the slightest.  It doesn't mean anything except that I'm competent at my job.

And if you think a screenshot of Firefox, your process tree, a filesystem manager, and your MP3 player on transparent terminal panels under Linux mint is /impressive/, somehow, you are in for a world of shock when you actually get done with that learnin' there, son.

You want to impress people with your knowledge?  Posting desktop screenies that include a couple of pachinko machines and some simple scripting hacks ain't exactly doing it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Emily on July 02, 2012, 10:27:04 PM
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.



Ahm.... didn't you say that you are learning Ubuntu or some variation of it?

I hate to burst your bubble but there really ins't much of a learning curve needed in any Ubuntu/Debian based distros.

Do you want a challenge: Try Slackware or Solaris (Unix) Gentoo is a bitch too.

EDIT: (stupid joke) you probably think the Linux man command means - MAN I'M AWESOME AT LINUX!

also........ I'd like to know the reason behind your little Linux outburst. Several of us here use Linux, myself included. Some of us here (from what I've read) are network admins (myself included). So your Linux comment is pretty out of place. Perhaps I'm taking it a bit too personal.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Grimm on July 03, 2012, 06:46:22 AM
You see, sister, I've got better things to do with my time than to blame religion for the world;'s problems and my own problems as well.

I have a life, and will not always be here to answer promptly to a valid point in the midst of invalid ones.

I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.



Ahm.... didn't you say that you are learning Ubuntu or some variation of it?

(Edit:  His screenshot shows) Mint.  It is, indeed, a Debian-based distro; it's an Ubuntu fork that comes with most hardware support out-of-the-box.  It's not bad - I like its esthetic better than Ubuntu, mostly (really, I know, it's shallow) because I prefer green to brown.

And I like its fonts.  Yay pretty fonts!

Quote

I hate to burst your bubble but there really ins't much of a learning curve needed in any Ubuntu/Debian based distros.

Do you want a challenge: Try Slackware or Solaris (Unix) Gentoo is a bitch too.

You ain't kiddin', sister.   Slackware, after all these years, still makes me bitch and moan.  Maybe I'm just lazy, but I still prefer the FreeBSD or Debian stacks - I get tired of futzing with drivers.

Good learning experience, though.

Then again, I still remember the days when the Linux community was all, "Xwindows is crap!  The command line is all anyone ever needs!"  Funny how /that/ didn't stick.

Quote
EDIT: (stupid joke) you probably think the Linux man command means - MAN I'M AWESOME AT LINUX!

A man with a cat and a grep walked into a pipe...

Quote
also........ I'd like to know the reason behind your little Linux outburst. Several of us here use Linux, myself included. Some of us here (from what I've read) are network admins (myself included). So your Linux comment is pretty out of place. Perhaps I'm taking it a bit too personal.

I didn't know!  You're going to have to eventually spill what systems you're working with, you know, that we may take over a corner of the WWGHA forum and geek at each other.

Maybe we need a "holycrap, this ticket I got today" topic. :)  If it's any consolation, though, I took that very personally as well.  Knowing computers doesn't make you somehow brilliant or superior - and I had that impression from his post, y'know?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jeremy0 on July 03, 2012, 01:19:42 PM
I always find it amusing when those that preach about religion can't ever follow their own teachings...

But then they hold you to it when they do it.  The reality is, we would have to forgive this Jesus a hell of a lot, even though he was tortured to death, since all of this Christian history is written in insanity and blood, and the promise of eternal torture - even for small shit. 

My take is this - why, after reading the bible, do we still ignore the facts and continue with the belief?  I would say it's because we wish some parts were true, and are saying shit - if this is true then I had better believe in it...

These are barriers to rational thought - strong emotion...
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: euroclydon on July 03, 2012, 02:29:40 PM
You're here, too.  A bit of logic for you:

Premise #1:  Arguing on this forum means that one has no life.
Premise #2:  Euroclydon argues on this forum.
Conclusion from #1 and #2:  Euroclydon has no life.

The conclusion is false.  Premise #2 is accurate.  Therefore, premise #1 must be false.  Agreed?

You forgot premise #0 , suggested by the other poster:

Premise #0 Arguing on this forum means responding within a certain time frame and to individual satisfactions.
Premise #1:  Arguing on this forum means that one has no life.
Premise #2:  Euroclydon argues on this forum.
Conclusion from #1 and #2:  Euroclydon has no life.

You "conclusion" is no longer valid by the first premise #0

BOOM!

I'm telling ya, I gots the tools!

Next...
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Illuminatus99 on July 03, 2012, 03:10:53 PM
Do you want a challenge: Try Slackware or Solaris (Unix) Gentoo is a bitch too.


Meh, I'd go with SCO or AIX :) I'm betting the guy has never had to compile his own kernel or write his own drivers.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Illuminatus99 on July 03, 2012, 03:20:52 PM
In response to the OP... Without proving the existence of jesus in the first  place any argument about what he may have said or not said, and whether or not he contradicted himself is moot. It's not that much different than trying to argue over who would win in a fight between darth vader and an intellectually honest theist.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on July 03, 2012, 03:46:09 PM
You forgot premise #0 , suggested by the other poster: ...

No, I just never included that premise in the first place.  You can't invalidate someone's syllogism just by forcibly adding an extra, unsupported premise.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Gnu Ordure on July 03, 2012, 04:02:56 PM
A fallacy exists only when there is insufficient evidence to support the claim.

Nonsense.

Fallacies are errors in reasoning, errors in the logical structure of the argument.

Nothing to do with the truth of the premises or the evidence presented to support them.



You don't appear to know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: GamerGirl on December 28, 2012, 09:48:31 PM
You see... I am glad I was busy earlier this year and didn't bother taking the time to read this thread.  Euroclydon is rude and his arguments nonsensical--what an amusing caricature of a logical debater.

In response to the OP... Without proving the existence of jesus in the first  place any argument about what he may have said or not said, and whether or not he contradicted himself is moot. It's not that much different than trying to argue over who would win in a fight between darth vader and an intellectually honest theist.

Yes, but the difference is that most people agree that Darth Vader is a fictional character; whereas, most people believe Jesus is a real person, at least based upon the sheer number of reported Christians on earth.

Jesus is an interesting character in an interesting story, but I think Zeus, Persephone, and Medusa are on the same level as Jesus (i.e. just as fictional), and much more interesting.  But the Jesus dude seems like a nice enough fictional guy who had some decent teachings.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Add Homonym on December 29, 2012, 10:12:21 AM
http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/jesus_contradicts_himself.htm

I just googled what some Arab said.



yum uninstall euroclydon

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Sarevok on January 03, 2013, 11:48:21 PM
Hang on, how is it a contradiction?

As you quoted (my emphasis added) "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.". He nowhere says calling someone a fool will send you to the fires of hell, just that it puts you "in danger" of the fire of hell.

I think a similar comparison can be drawn:
I say that "playing with fire could get you burnt", and I precede to play with fire. I'm not contradicting myself, I'm basically ignoring my own advise, and could well get myself burnt in the process.
That as opposed to if I'd said:
"Playing with fire makes you a fool, and I am no fool", but I then play with fire. I am contradicting myself in this instance.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: GamerGirl on January 05, 2013, 04:39:47 PM
That is a fair comparison.

Why not practice what he preaches? He's telling people that it's dangerous to do one thing, then he does it.  That'd be like me telling my children not to touch the stove when it's on because it's hot, and then going and touching it in front of them when it's on in front of them.  Or... like, it's foolish to not wear you seat belt in the car, and then go ahead and not wear it in front of them.  Why?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Seppuku on January 05, 2013, 06:16:59 PM
Quote
I've been teaching myself Linux, which requires reading and learning. Try it some time. Get a life.

How did I manage to miss this gem of a theist? This level of arrogance might have been fun to play with. This guy hasn't got the time to bother with us because he's learning Linux. How much of his time is it taking him to learn it? Most of us here manage to find time to argue, do our research, read up on science, religion and philosophy AND learn new hobbies, continue old ones, go to work, feed ourselves, study (for any students) and have a social life. My God, I feel so stupid for being a WWGHA member, well, excuse me ladies and gents, what am I doing logged into Windows 8 and posting this message!? Hot damn, Windows 8 is for morons! I best boot up on my Ubuntu partition and writing this message in C++ code using Codeblocks! Or I would, but it'd mean I have to boot up my other laptop, because it's the one with the partition and I cannae be arsed grabbing it.

Hang on, how is it a contradiction?

As you quoted (my emphasis added) "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.". He nowhere says calling someone a fool will send you to the fires of hell, just that it puts you "in danger" of the fire of hell.

I think a similar comparison can be drawn:
I say that "playing with fire could get you burnt", and I precede to play with fire. I'm not contradicting myself, I'm basically ignoring my own advise, and could well get myself burnt in the process.
That as opposed to if I'd said:
"Playing with fire makes you a fool, and I am no fool", but I then play with fire. I am contradicting myself in this instance.

Drink driving is a dangerous affair. Would somebody who says, "if you drink and drive, you'd be putting yourself and others in danger" by a hypocrite if they then went out on a binge and sat behind the wheel...even if he manages to get off okay without running down a few school children. If it was your driving instructor, I am sure he'd lose his job.

I mean, if we were to take the argument that this isn't a contradiction, then arguably no sin can really be bad so long as you're willing to suffer the consequences. But isn't hell for sinners? Jesus warns of a great number of things that would send one to hell and so does the old testament - God is very keen on being wrathful to those who do things he doesn't like. Any action where you'd put yourself at risk of being sent to hell is clearly a wrong doing in the eyes of the Lord, unless of course he's doing it for kicks. Whilst my opinion of bible-God isn't very high, because I think there are many horrific traits I don't think he's getting off on people suffering for the sake of people suffering. I get that he's vengeful and very egotistical in the bible, but the bible doesn't suggest to me that he derives pleasure from it. So I doubt he's added the risk for kicks.

So, God's only son, who is but a man, would happily sin whilst teaching men not to sin. But it's not really a case of not following his own advice (generally, people who don't follow their own advice are hypocrites, I don't always follow mine and when I don't, that makes ME a hypocrite), because it is God, his father (or for those who believe in the holy trinity, himself) made these rules he was sent to bring. There's nothing to say Jesus, who is considered a man in the bible, is exempt from these rules, as already suggested.

And the bible does state that Jesus has not come to change the law, but to enforce it, yet at times he's seemingly above the law.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Sarevok on January 06, 2013, 06:06:08 PM
I think Jesus is alluding to the point that if you have this attitude it maybe reflecting other areas of your life that would be sending you to hell, such as unforgiveness. Also, he's statement and yours are different to an extent. He is talking about someone's attitude toward someone else. You are talking about a physical action, which if you lost control, would directly affect others. Calling someone a fool isn't going to injure them (except maybe emotionally), loosing control and crashing into someone else is going to directly affect their life.

Interesting logic, but I think there is an issue with it. "no sin can really be bad so long as you're willing to suffer the consequences", the bible outlines the consequences of sin, which is without forgiveness, being sent to hell. Also, Jesus never said calling someone a fool was a sin. As I said, he simply outlined that if you have that attitude, chances are, you will do other things that will send you to hell.
You say that "Jesus warns of a great number of things that would send one to hell and so does the old testament", but he never said calling someone a full would send you to hell, like I outlined above.
What "horrific traits" are you talking about exactly? I think you may have the wrong impression (at least, that is my impression)

Where did Jesus explicitly commit a sin? I mean, Pilot confessed that he found no law that Jesus broke, so I'm curious where you feel he fell down. Again, Jesus was saying that calling someone a fool could indicate a deeper problem, and that he wasn't a hypocrite. Even assuming that he is, can you show where hypocrisy is listed as a sin?

"And the bible does state that Jesus has not come to change the law, but to enforce it, yet at times he's seemingly above the law." Care to share the verses where you believe this is the case?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on January 06, 2013, 06:30:44 PM
Seppuku, it's not technically a contradiction, because "in danger of" is wishy-washy language.  How high do the odds of something have to be to qualify as "danger of" that thing?  One could say that to fly in an airplane is to be in danger of dying in a crash.  By any intuitive standard, that risk is not a danger.  But it's more than zero.

A danger of X happening is not falsified by an observation of X not happening.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 07, 2013, 07:14:07 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/2Iue2.png)

"22 [...]And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?
Nothing like a good old-fashioned quote mine to show confidence in one's own positions.  Not even the entire verse was quoted.

Here's some analysis. (http://bible.cc/matthew/5-22.htm)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 07, 2013, 11:16:01 PM
Here's some analysis. (http://bible.cc/matthew/5-22.htm)

Don't care what it says.  I believe it is a contradiction and nothing can change my mind.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 07, 2013, 11:43:57 PM
Good luck changing anyone else's.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 08, 2013, 09:47:32 AM
Good luck changing anyone else's.

hey, they have their own truth, I have mine.  They have their own reality, I have mine.  And really, we should all respect each other's beliefs.  Right?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 08, 2013, 10:03:50 PM
If you believe they have a separate reality from you, I respect that.  If you believe you share a reality, then you may have to internally reconcile the above claim at some point.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 09, 2013, 11:20:57 AM
That was my inner-theist talking.  I do not believe in separate truths or realities.  I especially do not believe in the idea of respecting all beliefs.  That would be idiotic.  Only some beliefs are respectable.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 09, 2013, 03:20:44 PM
That was my inner-theist talking.
No, it was your inner caricature of a theist talking.  It's about as accurate as a theist pretending to be a nihilistic amoral god-hater and claiming it's their inner atheist talking.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Sarevok on January 09, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
I'm confused screwtape. Are you saying that any proofs/arguments that demonstrate what Jesus said isn't a contradiction will always be dismissed by yourself? Or are you just being difficult to Mooby  :P
I ask, as I'm working out of you want an answer, or an argument.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 09, 2013, 09:41:02 PM
He's trying to get me to make a reply that he feels he can turn around and apply to me.


Sort of like this:

Screwtape: Something silly.
Mooby: That's silly because X.
Scewtape: *Holds up mirror* X is you.
Mooby: OMG of course!  Your straw man is perfect analogue!  Religion is a silly!  I are atheist now!

I can hold out pretty well in a war of attrition, though.  So he'll have to work a bit harder to score his points.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on January 10, 2013, 07:45:38 AM
Mooby, it would help if we hadn't had numerous theists taking sillier versions of exactly the position Screwtape is mocking.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 10, 2013, 09:52:36 AM
That was my inner-theist talking.
No, it was your inner caricature of a theist talking.  It's about as accurate as a theist pretending to be a nihilistic amoral god-hater and claiming it's their inner atheist talking.

Mooby, you should know that there are tons and tons and tons of xians who come in here and say the exact things I said, verbatim.  That might not be you (I never said or implied it was) or all xians, but they definitely and unquestionably exist in large numbers. 

I'm confused screwtape. Are you saying that any proofs/arguments that demonstrate what Jesus said isn't a contradiction will always be dismissed by yourself? Or are you just being difficult to Mooby 
I ask, as I'm working out of you want an answer, or an argument.

I'm teasing the Moobster. 

I want a correct understanding of reality, and that includes religion.  I would not want to reject xianity based on a misunderstanding.  Fortunately, there are plenty of solid, valid reasons to reject xianity, even if Mooby is right about the few to which he objected.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on January 10, 2013, 05:31:57 PM
Screwtape, Mooby is a magic and woo believer, so lots of handwaving and finesse is par.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 10, 2013, 07:03:03 PM
Mooby doesn't believe in magic.  He woos his girlfriend constantly, though.  ;)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Sarevok on January 10, 2013, 09:43:19 PM
Can you provide a solid, valid reason for discussion? Most I've come across are weak personal viewpoints which people refuse to budge on, based on something assumed, or are contradictions give to show discontinuity in the bible.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 11, 2013, 10:09:38 AM
Mooby doesn't believe in magic. 

You do.  You just call it something else.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 11, 2013, 04:26:02 PM
Mooby doesn't believe in magic. 

You do.  You just call it something else.
No, I do not.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 11, 2013, 07:48:32 PM
Mooby doesn't believe in magic.  He woos his girlfriend constantly, though.  ;)
Now is this a fiancee' or a girlfriend? we would not want you to act contradictory to the teachings of the bible by having premarital sex.

 :angel:
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 12, 2013, 08:19:30 AM
Mooby doesn't believe in magic. 

You do.  You just call it something else.
No, I do not.

What do you call it when the host turns into jesus H christ brisket?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 12, 2013, 08:51:12 AM
What do you call it when the host turns into jesus H christ brisket?
Consubstantiation.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Seppuku on January 12, 2013, 09:31:25 AM
Mooby doesn't believe in magic. 

You do.  You just call it something else.
No, I do not.

You are a Christian aren't you Moobster? You believe in the God of the bible, you may not necessarily believe in it the same way as people like the Phelps, Kent Hovind or Ted Haggard, but you still believe in the same God described in the bible who is known for having mysterious and supernatural powers. I am sure you believe in God as an existing entity rather than a symbol or metaphor.

The God of the bible has magical powers, they may not be referred to as magic, but He has a mysterious or supernatural powers, different Christians may have different ideas about how they work, but I've not heard of any versions of Christianity where such mysterious or supernatural powers are not present and I'm pretty sure you've talked about a God who demonstrates such powers, though you can at times be pretty vague about your own beliefs.

If you believe in something with mysterious or supernatural powers you are by proxy believe in magic because that's all magic is. Some may use the word 'magic' to discredit somebody's beliefs because 'magic' is considered to be a childish notion, regardless of that, it is still magic and it is no different to believing in fairies and unicorns. The beliefs are no less valid, yet people will put their own beliefs on a different pedestal to try and present their views in a more reasonable light. At the end of the day, they're supernatural, they are based on faith and have nothing really to back themselves up. To my mind they serve better as hypotheses, I am willing to accept that people will have faith, be it God, unicorns or Santa Claus, if they come here naturally I'd attempt to scrutinise them, but none of those beliefs are deserving of more respect than the next and naturally, I consider them all 'magical', because for them to exist in their described form then they'd require magic. Heck, due to the content of the bible and what it has led a certain number of Christians to support, believe and even do, in general I have less respect for Christianity than I do for any ideologies for belief in fairies, unicorns or Santa. On an individual level, I judge Christians for who they are. However, I will not hide by the illusion that Christianity isn't based around magic, regardless of who I respect.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on January 12, 2013, 10:29:31 AM
Mooby, The claim that anyone can do something outside the realm of physics is magic. You claim "God" can do magic. If not, you have no god and thus are an atheist like us.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 12, 2013, 05:08:16 PM
You are a Christian aren't you Moobster? You believe in the God of the bible, you may not necessarily believe in it the same way as people like the Phelps, Kent Hovind or Ted Haggard, but you still believe in the same God described in the bible who is known for having mysterious and supernatural powers. I am sure you believe in God as an existing entity rather than a symbol or metaphor.
Basically correct, though I try not to use the word "entity" in reference to God's being as it connotes something a bit different than what I believe.  Otherwise, yes.  I'm a Catholic.

Quote
If you believe in something with mysterious or supernatural powers you are by proxy believe in magic because that's all magic is.
This is partially correct.  Magic is a subset of supernatural powers, in the same way cats are subsets of mammals.  If you were to say to me, "If you believe that Seppuku is a mammal then you by proxy believe he is a cat because that's all cats are," I would have to contest that because while all cats are mammals, not all mammals are cats.  Similarly, while all magical powers are supernatural, not all supernatural powers are magic.

While I recognize the definition of "magic" (more on that a few quotes down) within the spectrum of the supernatural, I do not believe that magic actually exists.  And while the existence of magic has never been outright accepted or rejected by Christianity, attempts to practice magic are considered sinful.

Quote
Some may use the word 'magic' to discredit somebody's beliefs because 'magic' is considered to be a childish notion, regardless of that, it is still magic and it is no different to believing in fairies and unicorns.
I don't have a problem with the use of the term to describe religious beliefs or practices.  Wiccans, for example, use magic in their rituals, which they sometimes spell "magick" to differentiate themselves from the illusory magic that modern magicians practice.  But the term does not describe anything extant in Christianity, and I personally don't believe in magic as a true supernatural occurence.

Mooby, The claim that anyone can do something outside the realm of physics is magic. You claim "God" can do magic. If not, you have no god and thus are an atheist like us.
Your first sentence is accurate.  Your second sentence is not.  The key word is "anyone."

Magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/magic) is human control over the supernatural (Definition 2.)  If we look at the etymology (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=magic&allowed_in_frame=0) of the word, we can see that it arose as a human art, not as a reference to the divine.  Furthermore, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(paranormal)) explains how magic is rejected by all of the Abrahamic religions.  Specifically, practitioners of these faiths believe that the supernatural is the realm of God, not humans, and therefore it is not man's place to try to control it.

So no, I don't believe in magic.  If you want the silly creationists to learn the distinction between "abiogenesis" and "evolution" or the distinction between "don't believe in God" and "lack of a belief in gods," you can put forth the effort and learn the correct terms on the religious side of the discussion.

Next time just take the 5 seconds and google the term before you tell me why you're more qualified to determine what I believe than I am.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Seppuku on January 12, 2013, 07:31:49 PM
On the note of the 'human' influence, was Jesus not human?

Quote
Next time just take the 5 seconds and google the term before you tell me why you're more qualified to determine what I believe than I am.

I am quoting the above because (I don't know if Brakeman did) before posting I decided to look it up to make sure I had it right. Generally I avoid reference.com and Wikipedia for my definitions, I have used them in the past and have found them to fail me, shame because I like how they explain some things - I may use Wikipedia from time to time if I feel how they explain the facts is easy to read and understand, but it is a flawed resource. For any dictionary definitions I tend to use the Oxford Dictionary. The Oxford Dictionary (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/magic?q=magic) doesn't mention it having anything to do specifically with humans, nor is the word used just to apply to humans either (for instance, fairies aren't human nor are unicorns). Reference.com listed multiple definitions, the closest one to God would be number 6, it uses 'mystical' where the oxford dictionary prefers 'supernatural' or 'mysterious', mystical usually refers to the occult, but reference.com notes 'mysterious' as one of its definitions for 'mystical', though rare. Personally, I would side with the Oxford Dictionary because it is generally considered more reliable than reference.com or Wikipedia.

The etymology on the other hand, it is more related to witchcraft, that is correct, as you are familiar with etymology I am sure you are familiar with language change as well and presumably are aware of 'broadening' and also 'semantic shift'. The word 'magic' no longer just applies to witchcraft as you've rightly noted with Wicca and as you've also noted they distance themselves with a different spelling, the word clearly has broadened in meaning for them to do that. Also before it was associated with the witchcraft in the times people spoke Old English it related to the Greek, magike, and it was the art of the magus (which Etymology Online seems to leave out that part) and they weren't witches, though there were alchemists, astrologers and other things. 'Magi' also exists in the bible, the three wise men are referred to by Mathew as magi (from the Latin, which is from the Greek referring to the same people). The word is older than the Greek too, but we'd be going into Old Persian and further back in History.

Once upon a time I am sure Christians would want to distance themselves from the word 'magic' because it was once the word of witches, any divine intervention or any holy work is the work of God, not witchcraft, but I don't think the need to create that distance is necessary. Because its meaning has broadened to the supernatural and not one specific branch of the supernatural. Words change[1], it's the way of language, no matter how much control people try to put over it. This is why a good dictionary is descriptive of the English language, rather than prescriptive. Would I suggest that thus is the case with the word 'atheism' or as some to it, 'Atheism'? I fear it is going that way. Although I try to correct people because I am not an 'Atheist', I am an 'atheist' and try to make it about 'atheism' because I insist 'Atheism' does not exist because we not an organisation grouped by a series of ideals as people like to suggest (for example, my ideals are different to many atheists here), if the word 'atheist' becomes lost I would have to refer to myself as a non-theist to make the distinction, which to my mind would be ludicrous because that's what an 'atheist' is, but I too do not have control over language.


This perhaps doesn't apply to you, but I am certain it applies to groups of Christians out there, people have seen witchcraft as a real threat, the old testament instructs their death, hence we had the slaughter of so-called witches in Christianity's history and heck, even today.
 1. Like the word 'meat', instead of broadening it narrowed, it once referred to all food, leaving only those starving to death refusing a salad because they don't eat meat (or mete).
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Nam on January 12, 2013, 08:49:54 PM
Not if he were Biblegod in human form.

-Nam
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on January 12, 2013, 09:26:56 PM
Next time just take the 5 seconds and google the term before you tell me why you're more qualified to determine what I believe than I am.

Google smoogle. How freaking dishonest can you get? You know we were speaking of your god doing supernatural stuff.  You then hide behind definitions and wiki's about how it is the common claims of men claiming to do magic. We were not talking about men or witches doing magic. Quit trying to hide behind semantics. Only someone seriously divorced from reality believes in paranormal woo from a magic god.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 13, 2013, 01:31:40 AM
For any dictionary definitions I tend to use the Oxford Dictionary. The Oxford Dictionary (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/magic?q=magic) doesn't mention it having anything to do specifically with humans, nor is the word used just to apply to humans either (for instance, fairies aren't human nor are unicorns)[. . .]Personally, I would side with the Oxford Dictionary because it is generally considered more reliable than reference.com or Wikipedia.
You are correct that the OED does not mention "humans" on that page.  It does not mention "fairies" or "unicorns," either.

The definition states, "the power of apparently influencing events," which implies there is a magician.  Furthermore, none of its examples it gives have anything to do with the supernatural abilities of a deity.  Lastly, the wording on the American English version (http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/magic?q=magic) of the page makes it even more clear that magic as an adjective refers to an object such as a wand as opposed to something like a deity.

You have to be a bit careful with the OED's definitions, because it often generalizes definitions like that.  For instance, take a look at the definition of theory (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/theory?q=theory) (identical on both the British and US English page.)  The definition of theory as "a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something" can certainly be read via the colloquial "just a theory" definition, even though that doesn't reflect how scientists use the term.  By contrast, dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory) (which you find dubious) goes out of its way to separate the formal and colloquial uses of the term.

In short, the OED gives no indication whatsoever that the term "magic" is or was ever intended to be used to describe a supernatural act performed by a deity.

Quote
The word 'magic' no longer just applies to witchcraft as you've rightly noted with Wicca and as you've also noted they distance themselves with a different spelling, the word clearly has broadened in meaning for them to do that.
Indeed, the word broadened to include creating the illusion of supernatural abilities for entertainment.  There is no evidence, however, that the term broadened to include something that's its polar opposite in several major religions.

Quote
Also before it was associated with the witchcraft in the times people spoke Old English it related to the Greek, magike, and it was the art of the magus (which Etymology Online seems to leave out that part) and they weren't witches, though there were alchemists, astrologers and other things. 'Magi' also exists in the bible, the three wise men are referred to by Mathew as magi (from the Latin, which is from the Greek referring to the same people). The word is older than the Greek too, but we'd be going into Old Persian and further back in History.
You are correct.  The biblical Magi were wise men from the east (often assumed to be Persia) who followed the stars to find Jesus.  The Bible is silent on whether they practiced any of the above, but they were likely astrologers.  In this sense, it's possible they were practitioners of magic--but the Bible never claims they have any supernatural influence on anything.  All we know is that God placed a star that had significance to them, and they followed it.

Quote
Once upon a time I am sure Christians would want to distance themselves from the word 'magic' because it was once the word of witches, any divine intervention or any holy work is the work of God, not witchcraft, but I don't think the need to create that distance is necessary.
It is if the term has absolutely nothing to do with actual Christian belief or practice.

Quote
Because its meaning has broadened to the supernatural and not one specific branch of the supernatural.
No, it has not.  A few atheists exercising wishful thinking so they can use the word improperly to annoy Christians with impunity is not common usage.  And even if it did one day become common usage, it would still not change how it is used in basically every religion in the world, and thus it would be improper to use it otherwise in such a discussion.

Just as how it will always be inaccurate to say that the scientific theories of evolution, relativity, gravity, etc. are equivalent to conjectures because of common use, it will also always be inaccurate to say that Christians believe in magic because of alleged common use.

Quote
This perhaps doesn't apply to you, but I am certain it applies to groups of Christians out there, people have seen witchcraft as a real threat, the old testament instructs their death, hence we had the slaughter of so-called witches in Christianity's history and heck, even today.
As I said, there's no real Catholic (I'm Catholic, so I know its positions best) stance on whether magic is possible.  Magic is grouped in within the larger subset of the occult, which in general is recognized as potentially possible and is considered sinful.  But the reason the occult is considered sinful is precisely because the church doubts magic can come from a human source.  But that's another topic entirely.


How freaking dishonest can you get? You know we were speaking of your god doing supernatural stuff.  You then hide behind definitions and wiki's about how it is the common claims of men claiming to do magic. We were not talking about men or witches doing magic. Quit trying to hide behind semantics. Only someone seriously divorced from reality believes in paranormal woo from a magic god.
It takes a certain kind of arrogance to intentionally twist the definition of a word for the precise purpose of using it improperly and then accuse the other person of intellectual dishonesty when they call you out on your pathetic charade.

If you're not going to take the time to learn the basic terms a religious person uses to describe their beliefs, then you have no business in discussing those beliefs.  And if you insist on doing so anyways, that person has every right to insist that you look up them up so they don't have to waste time holding your hand and walking you through a vocab lesson like a small child.  That goes for anyone, whether you're discussing magic with Christians or voodoo with a vodouist.  Granted, I don't know any vodouists, but I doubt they'd appreciate you going into a discussion ready to criticize "knowledge" you gained from Temple of Doom or Live and Let Die. 

Kindly pull your head out of your backside, take the time to educate yourself, and let me know when you're ready to have a mature discussion.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Seppuku on January 13, 2013, 04:49:03 AM
Quote from: Mooby
You are correct that the OED does not mention "humans" on that page.  It does not mention "fairies" or "unicorns," either.

Quote from: Mooby
In short, the OED gives no indication whatsoever that the term "magic" is or was ever intended to be used to describe a supernatural act performed by a deity.

It specifies nothing, only that it is a supernatural power. The word is used to refer to anything supernatural these days, not just the practice of humans, which is why I consider your chosen definition to be inaccurate. From dictionary.com I would have chosen number 6 and not number 2 because number 6 is a broader use of the term.

But what difference is there believing in fairy magic or a genie and the supernatural powers of God? This is why I would use the word magic, because magic is no longer a specific branch of supernatural power. I've always understood magic as being anything that breaks the laws of nature and that's the way I've always used the word and how I've seen other people use the word and I don't see how the supernatural powers of God is different to magic. If magic is no longer specific to man or belief, then why are certain beliefs exempt?


Quote from: Mooby
You have to be a bit careful with the OED's definitions, because it often generalizes definitions like that.  For instance, take a look at the definition of theory (identical on both the British and US English page.)  The definition of theory as "a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something" can certainly be read via the colloquial "just a theory" definition, even though that doesn't reflect how scientists use the term.  By contrast, dictionary.com (which you find dubious) goes out of its way to separate the formal and colloquial uses of the term.

Whilst, yes it is a generalisation, it is not inaccurate. Yes, the word theory is used in a broader sense and not just in scientific theory. For a scientist to refer to anything as a theory, yes there's a lot of evidence required. As I previously said I like how reference.com explains things, but I have been tripped up before by using it. Whilst OED tends to be more generalised, I've not yet found it inaccurate.

But there is always an issue with dictionaries, they can never really offer a perfect representation of language because at the end of the day it's down to how people use the words and that can at times be inconsistent. Perhaps combining the use of multiple dictionaries is better than just sticking to one.

Quote from: Mooby
Just as how it will always be inaccurate to say that the scientific theories of evolution, relativity, gravity, etc. are equivalent to conjectures because of common use, it will also always be inaccurate to say that Christians believe in magic because of alleged common use.

This isn't the same. I will explain why.

The word 'magic' being applied to religion would suggest that the religion is using supernatural powers as part of its belief, which would not be inaccurate. It's not saying it's witchcraft or anything to do with the occult. Just as I sure once it started applying to witches it no longer had anything to do with the magi.

If the word 'theory' was equivalent to conjectures (in some ways, it has) then scientists would have to find a new word. The difference is that one word is becoming inclusive of one set of principles whilst the other is being exclusive. Given 'theory' at the moment includes conjecture AND scientific theory, if it were to become just conjecture it'd be narrowing, not broadening (like with magic).


I would agree though, that the word 'magic' is often used to annoy Christians (as I think I've already said) because of its connotations - it can viewed as being more childish or fantastical and I'm sure Christians know where the word comes from, but I don't think it is an inaccurate word to use. Heck, wouldn't it piss off those atheists who do use it in a derogative way if suddenly it didn't annoy Christians? To my mind, there should be no reason why the word 'magic' can't apply to God, generally I won't refer to it as magic because I know people don't like it when you do, but I don't see why any of the supernatural should be exempt from the word as it really isn't specific to the occult anymore.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on January 13, 2013, 06:10:28 AM
@Mooby,

maybe I missed it somewhere, but what word would you use instead of magic? Since we in Western Civilization generally no longer believe in wizards, witches (although I know some Christians that do believe in witches), genies, fairies, warlocks, magicians, or David Blaine (or any other being that had been suspected of doing 'magic') it appears to me that dieties would be the ONLY place where the definition of magic would even apply.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 13, 2013, 11:05:59 AM
Mooby, I see you using a lot of high falutin labels, like "magic" and "occult" and "unicorns" in an attempt to distance your beliefs - which of course are perfectly sound and reasonable - from the beliefs of other so-called religions - which of course are vulgar, superstitious and frightening.  But all these labels are just semantics.  They only mean anything to you because you are invested in it.  From the outside it looks like an absurd pretense.

You talk about Wiccans casting spells.  What is that, really?  According to ReligiousTolerance.org, it is a ritual activity wherein the wiccan beseeches the supernatural to alter reality for her.[1]  Compare that to a prayer.  A prayer is a ritual activity wherein Mooby beseeches one or more supernatural entities to alter reality for him.[2]  It is the same thing.  Yet, despite being generally the same, I'm sure you'd also object to having your prayers referred to as spells.  But your objection would be silly. 

Similarly, your objection to catholic hocus-pocus being called magic is also silly.  Hocus-pocus is hocus-pocus, no matter who is doing it.  You say "occult" to characterize non-catholic superstitious beliefs.  But from the outside, there is no difference.  They are all superstitions, only one is catholic, one is not.  I know, you don't want to think your beliefs are in any way similar to wiccans because the church has looked down its nose at them for two millennia now.  You may want to think your religion is so sophisticated and rational.  But, newsflash dude, it's not.  It is just as primitive and backward as Wicca.

Consubstantiation.  It is just a word catholics use so they don't have to say "magic".  Such pretense.

 1. http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr4.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr4.htm)
 2. As a catholic you might pray to god, the holy spirit, jesus H, the Virgin Mary, or one of several hundred saints.  Yeah, that's not polytheism.  Not at all.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on January 13, 2013, 11:09:13 AM
..
How freaking dishonest can you get? You know we were speaking of your god doing supernatural stuff.  You then hide behind definitions and wiki's about how it is the common claims of men claiming to do magic. We were not talking about men or witches doing magic. Quit trying to hide behind semantics. Only someone seriously divorced from reality believes in paranormal woo from a magic god.
It takes a certain kind of arrogance to intentionally twist the definition of a word for the precise purpose of using it improperly and then accuse the other person of intellectual dishonesty when they call you out on your pathetic charade.

If you're not going to ..

Translation: WAH WAH WAH! I like to hide behind semantics so I can avoid the obvious discussion point that my imaginary god can wink like Samantha the witch in "Bewitched" and "Poof" things into existence. Now i will whine and attack because you're seeing though me.. Wah Wah WAH!

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 13, 2013, 06:15:04 PM
It specifies nothing, only that it is a supernatural power.
No, that's not what it says.  No definition on that page has  the supernatural as its only qualifier.  Read it again.

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The word is used to refer to anything supernatural these days, not just the practice of humans, which is why I consider your chosen definition to be inaccurate.
Since you've claimed this multiple times, you obviously feel it has some weight.  So where's the evidence that this is common use?

Because the only context in which I've ever see it being applied as you claim is both:
- By atheists
- On the internet

Which suggests to me that this alleged broad definition of yours is neologistic.

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The word 'magic' being applied to religion would suggest that the religion is using supernatural powers as part of its belief, which would not be inaccurate. It's not saying it's witchcraft or anything to do with the occult. Just as I sure once it started applying to witches it no longer had anything to do with the magi.

If the word 'theory' was equivalent to conjectures (in some ways, it has) then scientists would have to find a new word. The difference is that one word is becoming inclusive of one set of principles whilst the other is being exclusive. Given 'theory' at the moment includes conjecture AND scientific theory, if it were to become just conjecture it'd be narrowing, not broadening (like with magic).
They are actually quite related.  Saying "evolution is just a theory" is a distraction technique used to cause confusion between the broad definition of the word and the specific scientific definition of the word.  Similarly, saying "Christians believe in magic" is a distraction technique used to cause confusion between the alleged broad definition of the word and the specific religious definition of the word.  Scientists are quick to point out, "No, evolution is not 'just a theory;' it's a scientific theory."  Similarly, Christians are quick to point out, "No, Christians don't believe in magic." 

If the alleged broad definition of "magic" were to become a real, dominant definition, then we would have to do the same thing as a scientists.  Wiccans already do this, using the archaic spelling "magick" to differentiate their rituals from illusory magic.  So then we might switch to saying, "Christians don't believe in illusory magic or magick," but that won't be necessary until your alleged broad definition becomes the dominant definition of the word.

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Heck, wouldn't it piss off those atheists who do use it in a derogative way if suddenly it didn't annoy Christians?
Wouldn't it piss off creationists if it didn't annoy scientists when they used "just a theory" in a derogatory way, and wouldn't it piss off fundamentalists if it didn't annoy atheists when they claimed the atheists "reject God?"

No, it'd validate them, and validate an intentionally misapplied definition.  This is why the atheists in this thread are desperately hanging onto the indefensible claim that I believe in magic than try to understand what it means for me to say that I don't.  You guys have demonstrated quite clearly that you don't care what I actually believe or its implications, you only care about whether you can ride out a stupid, misapplied statement long enough to score a point.

This is why I think it's hilarious when people uphold atheism as an intellectually strong or independent position.  For every one person who makes an intelligent argument, there are 100 sheep blindly following along, going through the motions of a discussion, and looking to score points and get high fives from their buddies.  Sure, all the religious do it too, but at least they're transparent about it. 

At its core, atheism is just another belief, just another world view, no different than the thousands of others you reject.  Calling it a "lack" of belief doesn't make it special, doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it any more intelligent than any other one.  I personally can't wait until atheism becomes a dominant world view, because right now it's still able to ride the wave of its intellectual leaders.  But that won't last forever, and if this thread is any indication, once the moronic masses take over the results should be quite interesting.

Am I any better?  Yeah, marginally.  When an atheist tells me why they feel atheism is not a religion, I don't cite OED's 3rd bullet point (http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/religion?q=religion) or Reference.com's #6 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion), use it to twist the word into something I know doesn't apply to you, claim that it's common use, and then spend multiple posts insisting that it must apply to atheism while waiting for other Christians to join in and agree with me and accusing the other person of being dishonest for not accepting my application of the label.  Instead, I try to understand why it means for an atheist to say they are not part of a religion, and then direct my further attention to addressing that distinction.  But then again, I'm generally more interested in the atheist's beliefs (or lack thereof) than wasting my time desperately trying to apply a label I know isn't really accurate in the first place.

maybe I missed it somewhere, but what word would you use instead of magic?
It depends on what we're talking about.  If we're talking about God doing something supernatural to impact the natural world, then the best word is probably "miracle."  If we're talking about God synthesizing the natural world or something to add to the natural world, then the best word is probably "creation."  If we're talking about God's abilities, we'd probably be using terms like "God" or "God's power" or "omnipotence."  And so on.  If we're talking about supernatural elements ascribable to God while excluding those not ascribable to God, then the best word is probably "divine."

Mooby, I see you using a lot of high falutin labels, like "magic" and "occult" and "unicorns" in an attempt to distance your beliefs - which of course are perfectly sound and reasonable - from the beliefs of other so-called religions - which of course are vulgar, superstitious and frightening.  But all these labels are just semantics.  They only mean anything to you because you are invested in it.  From the outside it looks like an absurd pretense.
I don't think I used "unicorns," and "magic" wasn't introduced by me.  And I don't think any of those labels are particularly "highfalutin;" all of those words are pretty common, with "unicorns" being the least common of them.

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You talk about Wiccans casting spells.  What is that, really?  According to ReligiousTolerance.org, it is a ritual activity wherein the wiccan beseeches the supernatural to alter reality for her.[1]  Compare that to a prayer.
 1. http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr4.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr4.htm)
And on every other site I could possibly find on Google, including multiple sites run by actual Wiccans, spells are the practitioner's own manipulation of magic.

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A prayer is a ritual activity wherein Mooby beseeches one or more supernatural entities to alter reality for him.
No, that's not what a prayer is.

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As a catholic you might pray to god, the holy spirit, jesus H, the Virgin Mary, or one of several hundred saints.  Yeah, that's not polytheism.  Not at all.
Correct.  Christianity is not polytheistic.

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Consubstantiation.  It is just a word catholics use so they don't have to say "magic".
Incorrect.  Consubstantiation is the process of becoming consubstantial, and that's not something Christians believe in magical.

<Crap>
Like I said, when you've pulled your head out of your bottom, educated yourself, and are ready for a mature discussion, let me know.  Clearly you're not there yet.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on January 13, 2013, 07:12:33 PM
<Crap> I don't want to face
Crap to try to save face.

Sez the feeble minded person that believes a god "poofs" things into existence, "Poofs" seas to split, "poofs" women into salt, and "poofs" dead men's rotten bodies back into life, but wears his thesaurus out trying to avoid the obvious common vernacular word of "magic."

And he says "I" have my head up my ass!  Ha ha. What a true gem!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on January 13, 2013, 08:08:53 PM
I've heard it said that real magic will only ever be true and work if you actually believe in it  ;)  Perhaps Mooby is too reasonable to really believe.  For example, here's some Catholic Altar magic for True Catholics TMcomplete with powerful relics and other lala woowoo special water and oils and stuff.  I especially love the reasons for "loss of consecration" ... when the special magic just flies away and the altar stops working:

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II. CONSECRATION OF A FIXED ALTAR
 
At the consecration of a church at least one fixed altar must be consecrated. Altars, permanent structures of stone, may be consecrated at other times, but only in churches that have been consecrated or at least solemnly blessed. We have instances in which a simply priest has performed this rite. Walafridus Strabo, in the Life of St. Gall (ch. vi), says that St. Columban, at that time being a priest, having dedicated the church of St. Aurelia at Bregenz on the Lake of Constance, anointed the altar, deposited the relics of St. Aurelia under it, and celebrated Mass on it. But according to the present discipline of the Church, the ordinary minister of its consecration is the diocesan bishop. Without the permission of the ordinary, a bishop of another diocese cannot licitly consecrate an altar, although without such permission the consecration would be valid. One and the same bishop must perform the rite from the beginning to the end. An altar may be consecrated on any day of the year, but a Sunday or feast day is to be preferred (Pontificale Romanum). It is difficult to determine when the rite used at present was introduced. To the essentials of consecration reference is made as early as the sixth century by the Council of Agde (506): "Altars are to be consecrated not only by the chrism, but with the sacerdotal blessing"; and by St. Caesarius of Arles (d. about 542) in a sermon delivered at the consecration of an altar: "We have today consecrated an altar, the stone of which was blessed or anointed" (Migne, P.L., LXVII, Serm. ccxxx).
 
The ceremonies of the exposition of the relics on the evening before the day of consecration, the keeping of the vigil, the blessing of the Gregorian water, the sprinkling of the altar, and the translation of the relics to the church are the same as those described at the consecration of a church (see IV, below). When the relics have been carried to the church, the consecrator anoints with holy chrism, at the four corners, the sepulchre of the altar (see ALTAR), in which the relics are to be enclosed, thereby sanctifying the cavity in which the venerated remains of the martyrs are to rest, and then reverently places therein the case containing the relics and incenses them. Having anointed with holy chrism the nether side of the small slab  that is to cover the sepulchre, he spreads blessed cement over the ledge  of the sepulchre on the inside and fits the slab into the cavity, after which he anoints the upper side of the slab and the altar-table near it. He then incenses the altar, first, on every side -- right, left, front and on top -- whilst the chanters sing  the antiphon "Stetit angelus"; secondly, in the form of a cross on the top, in the middle, and at the four corners, thirdly, whilst going round the altar three times. After the third incensation, the censer is given to a priest, vested in surplice, who, till the end of the consecration, continues going around the altar, incensing it on all sides, save when the bishop uses the censer. The incense symbolizes the sweet odour of prayer which is to ascend from the altar to heaven, whilst the fullness of the grace of the Holy Ghost, which is to descend on the altar  and the faithful, is indicated by the prayers recited after the three unctions  which follow. The consecrator then anoints the table of the altar at the middle of the four corners, twice  with the oil of catechumens, and the third time with holy chrism. After each unction he goes round the altar once, incensing it continuously, the first and second time passing by the Epistle side, and third time by the Gospel side. Finally, as if to indicate the complete sanctification of the altar, he pours and spreads over its table the oil of catechumens and holy chrism together, rubbing the holy oils over it with his right hand, whilst the chanters sing the appropriate antiphon, "Behold the smell of my son is as the smell of a plentiful field", etc. (Gen., xxvii, 27, 28). When the church is consecrated at the same time, the twelve crosses on the inner walls are now anointed with holy chrism and incensed. The consecrator then blesses the incense and sprinkles it with holy water. Then he forms it into five crosses, each consisting of five grains, on the table of the altar, in the middle and at the four corners. Over each cross of incense he places a cross made of thin wax taper. The ends of each cross are lighted and with them the incense is burned an consumed. This ceremony symbolizes the true sacrifice which is thereafter to be offered on the altar; and it indicates that our prayers must be fervent and animated by true and lively faith if they are to be acceptable to God and efficacious against our spiritual enemies. Finally, the bishop traces with holy chrism a cross on the front of the altar  and on the juncture of the table and the base on which it rests at the four corners, as if to join them together, to indicate that this altar is to be in future a firmly fixed and constant source of grace to all who with faith approach it. Then follow the blessings of the altar-cloths, vases, and ornaments of the altar, the celebration of Mass, and the publication of the Indulgences, as at the end of the consecration of a church.
 



Loss of Consecration
 
An altar loses its consecration: (1) when the table of the altar is broken  into two or more large pieces; (2) when at the corner  of the table that portion which the consecrator anointed with holy oil is broken off; (3) when several large stones  of the support of the table are removed; (4) when one of the columns  which support the table at the corners is removed; (5) if for any reason whatever the table is removed from the support, or only raised from it -- e.g., to renew the cement; (6) by the removal of the relics, or by the fracture or removal, by chance or design, of the small cover, or slab, placed over the cavity containing the relics. (See also HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN ALTAR.).

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Consecration


So if an electrician fixing the chandelier above the altar drops his screw driver and knocks off a special "anointed" corner the altar is fucked.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: 3sigma on January 14, 2013, 06:31:37 AM
Because the only context in which I've ever see it being applied as you claim is both:
- By atheists
- On the internet

What did you expect? Did you think religious believers would admit that their beliefs are childish? Of course they won’t use the term ‘magic’ to describe what they believe—they’ll hide behind euphemisms such as “miracle”, “creation” or “God’s power” instead. Religious believers want to think that their beliefs are real, sensible and justified, which is why they object so strenuously to the term magic even though that’s basically what they believe. Magic is the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. That is exactly what religious believers believe their god is doing when they imagine it uses its power to answer their prayers or perform miracles.


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…wouldn't it piss off fundamentalists if it didn't annoy atheists when they claimed the atheists "reject God?"

…Or when they claim atheists must hate god or it takes more faith to be an atheist or atheism is just another belief. That last one’s a classic, isn’t it? What sort of person would make such a ridiculous claim?


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At its core, atheism is just another belief, just another world view, no different than the thousands of others you reject.  Calling it a "lack" of belief doesn't make it special, doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it any more intelligent than any other one.

I guess that answers my last question. Actually, atheism is special in the sense that it is different from the usual. It is also more reasonable and justifiable to withhold belief when there isn’t a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to support that belief.


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I personally can't wait until atheism becomes a dominant world view, because right now it's still able to ride the wave of its intellectual leaders.  But that won't last forever, and if this thread is any indication, once the moronic masses take over the results should be quite interesting.

Hmmm… If it isn’t atheists or agnostics who currently make up the moronic masses then I wonder what those masses must be…


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Am I any better?  Yeah, marginally.  When an atheist tells me why they feel atheism is not a religion, I don't cite OED's 3rd bullet point (http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/religion?q=religion) or Reference.com's #6 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion), use it to twist the word into something I know doesn't apply to you, claim that it's common use, and then spend multiple posts insisting that it must apply to atheism while waiting for other Christians to join in and agree with me and accusing the other person of being dishonest for not accepting my application of the label.  Instead, I try to understand why it means for an atheist to say they are not part of a religion, and then direct my further attention to addressing that distinction.  But then again, I'm generally more interested in the atheist's beliefs (or lack thereof) than wasting my time desperately trying to apply a label I know isn't really accurate in the first place.

Right… You would never say atheism is just another belief, would you? After all, what sort of ridiculous and pathetic claim would that be?


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I don't think I used "unicorns," and "magic" wasn't introduced by me.  And I don't think any of those labels are particularly "highfalutin;" all of those words are pretty common, with "unicorns" being the least common of them.

And yet unicorns (http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unicorn&qs_version=KJV) are mentioned nine times in the KJV and magicians (http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=magician&qs_version=KJV) fifteen times. Furthermore, if you read Exodus chapters 7 & 8, you will see it claims magicians perform the same tricks as your god, but I wouldn’t read too much into that, Mooby. After all, it’s just childish make-believe.


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No, that's not what a prayer is.

Oh, then what is prayer, Mooby? Prayer is nothing but wishful thinking. It’s ritual hand-wringing used to quell anxiety or assuage fear. That’s all it is and all it’s good for.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 14, 2013, 09:16:06 AM
That was a lousy post, Mooby.  Really lousy.  It addressed nothing and essentially just reasserted your original claims.  Raspberries for you.

I don't think I used "unicorns," and "magic" wasn't introduced by me.  And I don't think any of those labels are particularly "highfalutin;" all of those words are pretty common, with "unicorns" being the least common of them.

Irrelevant and completely evades the point I was making (and misses the blatant satire).

And on every other site I could possibly find on Google, including multiple sites run by actual Wiccans, spells are the practitioner's own manipulation of magic.

Yay, a circular definition!  And one that lets you dodge the obvious parallels between magic and prayer.

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A prayer is a ritual activity wherein Mooby beseeches one or more supernatural entities to alter reality for him.
No, that's not what a prayer is.

Oh really?  Describe a typical prayer for me.  What do you and one of your many godlings chat about? 

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As a catholic you might pray to god, the holy spirit, jesus H, the Virgin Mary, or one of several hundred saints.  Yeah, that's not polytheism.  Not at all.
Correct.  Christianity is not polytheistic.

Oh, no, not the least bit.  You may pray to one of three "pieces" of god (each of them distinct and individual entities) or a virgin mother or a zillion saints, but that is completely and definitley not polytheism.  No way, no how. No sir. Polytheism is something totally different.

*snigger*

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Consubstantiation.  It is just a word catholics use so they don't have to say "magic".
Incorrect.  Consubstantiation is the process of becoming consubstantial, and that's not something Christians believe in magical.

Semantics and pretense.  You've not shown how it is anything other than that. Denials do not an argument or explanation make.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Seppuku on January 14, 2013, 05:06:25 PM
Quote from: Mooby
No, that's not what it says.  No definition on that page has  the supernatural as its only qualifier.  Read it again.

Fine, influencing events with supernatural or mysterious forces. It's still not specifying any bias to beliefs, creatures or deities. But you knew what I meant, given I've already offered a definition and how I've understood it. With the lack of bias to belief, creatures or deities the word can applied where there's any influence of events with supernatural or mysterious force, be it a witch turning somebody into a frog, a fairy making children fly with fairy dust and happy thoughts, being granted 3 wishes by a genie, the summoning of demons, talking to the dead, the powers of djinnis, Loki's shapeshifting abilities...Loki giving birth to a horse, God answering prayers, Jesus healing the sick.

To my mind, both definitions support my argument, only the one you gave was specific to humans, but when you look at how many 'non-humans' use magic in folklore, mythology, heck, video games and Disney movies, it's fairly clear that the definition is inaccurate in that regard.
 

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Since you've claimed this multiple times, you obviously feel it has some weight.  So where's the evidence that this is common use?

The Oxford Dictionary chooses to not make it specific to humans. I've used some examples where 'magic' is applied to non-humans. If I were to accept your chosen definition, it would mean I'd have to exclude all non-human things, it'd allow God to be exempt, but it wouldn't exempt Jesus, because wasn't Jesus human? Son of God, yes, but born to a human mother and as a human.


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If the alleged broad definition of "magic" were to become a real, dominant definition, then we would have to do the same thing as a scientists.  Wiccans already do this, using the archaic spelling "magick" to differentiate their rituals from illusory magic.  So then we might switch to saying, "Christians don't believe in illusory magic or magick," but that won't be necessary until your alleged broad definition becomes the dominant definition of the word.

Wiccans do it to refer to something more specific as the meaning of the word has broadened from witchcraft. With the word being broadened, you may choose to find a way to differentiate between the two. Because the word 'theory' has broadened people already do this, I tend to refer to 'theory' in the scientific sense as 'scientific theory' if I feel I am going to be misunderstood. What you were suggesting was 'narrowing' where scientific theory is thrown out of the window and only conjecture was kept, this would require scientists to use a completely different word.

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Wouldn't it piss off creationists if it didn't annoy scientists when they used "just a theory" in a derogatory way, and wouldn't it piss off fundamentalists if it didn't annoy atheists when they claimed the atheists "reject God?"

No, it'd validate them, and validate an intentionally misapplied definition.  This is why the atheists in this thread are desperately hanging onto the indefensible claim that I believe in magic than try to understand what it means for me to say that I don't.  You guys have demonstrated quite clearly that you don't care what I actually believe or its implications, you only care about whether you can ride out a stupid, misapplied statement long enough to score a point.

Love how I make a joke to try and lighten the mood would be taken seriously. And you've figured us out, it's all about point scoring, not about making any real points out all, because obviously we're all here to jack each other off.

Frankly I don't give a shit about point scoring. Don't be so presumptuous. You've failed to convince me you're right. I've already acknowledged that the word 'magic' is used in a derogative sense, but the point I was trying to make is that whilst it's used in that way doesn't mean it's inaccurate. Though you'd rather assume this is about point scoring and that I don't care what your point of view is. As far as I was aware this was a two way discussion, but with one failing to convince the other, but that's quite common.

Also to note, I'm pretty sure I have agreed with a creationist on more that one occassion that evolution is 'just' a theory, though it tends to annoy them more when you suggest gravity is 'just' a theory. If somebody's going to use something in a derogative way, there are ways of turning it on its head and not letting somebody use it as a weapon. Whilst I wasn't trying to make a serious point, but that's the serious answer.

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When an atheist tells me why they feel atheism is not a religion, I don't cite OED's 3rd bullet point or Reference.com's #6, use it to twist the word into something I know doesn't apply to you, claim that it's common use, and then spend multiple posts insisting that it must apply to atheism while waiting for other Christians to join in and agree with me and accusing the other person of being dishonest for not accepting my application of the label.

One day it may be the case you could argue it. The word atheism itself is still 'non-belief' or 'disbelief' in any deities. There are big groups of atheists united by similar views, but atheism doesn't only apply to these groups and there are many atheists who distance themselves, heck I do to a degree. There are more variations to atheism than meets the eye, many who don't use the label 'atheist' are in fact atheists. One example I would highlight is atheistic Buddhism - Buddhism is a religion that doesn't require belief in any deities.

To suggest atheism is a religion is like suggesting theism is a religion, but theists and atheists can all be religious, but the terms themselves don't necessarily apply to the religious...not unless their meanings change, I fear the word 'atheism' may take that route, hence I mentioned how atheism could become 'Atheism' and was used how some use it, I would have to be a 'non-theist' because the term would not include me.


Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mooby on January 14, 2013, 10:13:28 PM
Sez the feeble minded person that believes a god "poofs" things into existence, "Poofs" seas to split, "poofs" women into salt, and "poofs" dead men's rotten bodies back into life, but wears his thesaurus out trying to avoid the obvious common vernacular word of "magic."
Again, let me know when you're ready for a mature discussion.

Because the only context in which I've ever see it being applied as you claim is both:
- By atheists
- On the internet
What did you expect? Did you think religious believers would admit that their beliefs are childish?
Red herring.  Is the alleged broad definition of "magic" common use or neologism?  Your response seems to support the latter.

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Actually, atheism is special in the sense that it is different from the usual.
But of course.  Your monsters are different (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurMonstersAreDifferent), right?

We know it's certainly not the case that:
Muslims are different (http://www.marconews.com/blogs/medicine-globally-dr-rene-menguy/2010/aug/24/religion/)
Christians are different (http://www.bible.ca/g-christians-different.htm)
Jews are different (http://www.polyconomics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2222:why-jews-are-different&catid=36:1997)
Zoroastrianism is different (http://www.chacha.com/question/how-was-zoroastrianism-different-from-the-religions-that-came-before-it%3F-more)
Taoists are different (http://www.taoism.net/articles/bunting/different.htm)
Hinduism is different (http://www.socialstudies.com/c/article.html?article@PIN149A+af@donn)
Buddhism is different (http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/02/buddhism-is-different/)

Which version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism) of atheism is the different one, anyhow?  Oh, dear me, my mind is slipping.  There is only one atheism: the lack of a belief in deities.  Atheism itself doesn't have any specific values, teachings, or points of view outside that one lack of belief.  The apparent forms of atheism throughout the centuries were just various philosophical positions that were coincidentally atheist too, and thus don't actually count. 

Other than their majority shared views on religion, sexuality, women's rights, birth control, abortion, evolution, scientific empiricism, separation of church and state, liberalism, racism, sexism, lack of afterlife, lack of soul/spirits, morality, human reason, democracy, conservation, privacy, and skepticism, each modern atheist is an individual who simply lacks a belief in deities and is not tied down by the attitudes, opinions, or mores of a group.  And that is truly unique.

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It is also more reasonable and justifiable to withhold belief when there isn’t a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to support that belief.
Yes, this is an argument for atheism.  Were atheism a theology, we could call it "apologetics."  But atheism is not a theology, so it is not appropriate to call it "apologetics."  So it is simply an argument for atheism.

Each theology has its own apologetics.  These are reasoned arguments intended to justify that religion's theology, and often are designed to lead a person to the basis for that theology.  Were atheists to engage in apologetics, they would start with a claim like yours above, defend it against follow-up questions from the outsider ("On what basis do you claim it is reasonable and justifiable?"  "Well x, y, and z, therefore it is both reasonable and justfiable!"), and finally connect it to the basis of atheism ("Thus, it is both reasonable and justifiable to reject deities.")  However, atheists don't practice apologetics, since atheism is not a religion, and therefore this is yet another example of how atheism's monsters are different.

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Hmmm… If it isn’t atheists or agnostics who currently make up the moronic masses then I wonder what those masses must be…
Mostly Christians, at least in the US.  I thought that was obvious.  Which is why I'm perfectly content with letting the atheists pull ahead.

You see, "it is intellectually easier, in some sense, to follow the crowd. Iconoclasts face a cognitive hurdle—they have to justify to themselves and others why they feel differently. Probably for that reason, non-traditionalists tend to be smarter than the average person." (http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/are-liberals-smarter-than-conservatives)  Atheism is a non-traditional view in the US, which means the early adopters of atheism are statistically going to be well-educated.  Similarly, as the article points out, in places where Christianity is non-traditional such as Japan, adopters of Christianity are statistically more well-educated.

However, the "mass morons" is the hypothetical group of people who are the exact opposite of that.  They're the ones who would blindly follow tradition for tradition's sake, even when it doesn't make sense, and are also the ones who would loudly voice support of that tradition no matter how stupid it makes them (and everyone else) look.  Statistically, they would be less-educated, and less capable of critical thinking than the academic elite.

I don't think I'd have to try very hard to convince you that this hypothetical group exists in the US, and in very large numbers.  Currently, that group largely follows the dominant, traditional religious view: Christianity.  If atheism were to become dominant, I suspect that at least some of these bandwagoners would deconvert after a long, thoughtful examination of reality tv shows and teenage pop music.  If that happens, they'll be just as loud, just as stupid, just as prejudiced, and just as embarrassing to whichever view they support.  You're welcome to inherit them.

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Right… You would never say atheism is just another belief, would you? After all, what sort of ridiculous and pathetic claim would that be?
In English, "belief in no" and "no belief in any" are 100% grammatically equivalent. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_%28linguistics%29)  I used the former construction as it flowed better than writing "belief (or lack thereof)."  I did include the word "lack" in the same paragraph for those who absolutely insist on "lack of belief" appearing in the definition.

It's grammatically correct in English for you to say, "Your lack of belief in magic is your own personal belief" or whatnot, because my statement, "Mooby does not believe in magic" is grammatically equivalent to "Mooby believes in no magic," and the statement, "I lack a belief in magic" is grammatically equivalent to, "I believe in a lack of magic."  However, the statements, "atheism is not a religion" and "atheism is a religion" are not grammatically equivalent.  In fact, they are actually grammatical opposites.  So your comparison between my comments on how I don't call atheism a religion and the sentence structure I used in reference to atheism's beliefs (or lack thereof) does not apply.

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Oh, then what is prayer, Mooby? Prayer is nothing but wishful thinking. It’s ritual hand-wringing used to quell anxiety or assuage fear. That’s all it is and all it’s good for.
If you're seriously interested in the definition of prayer, Wikipedia has an entire page on it.  If you're more interested in your made-up definition, then it's probably a waste of your time for you to look it up.

And on every other site I could possibly find on Google, including multiple sites run by actual Wiccans, spells are the practitioner's own manipulation of magic.

Yay, a circular definition!  And one that lets you dodge the obvious parallels between magic and prayer.
I know!  Isn't it convenient that numerous practicing Wiccans out there who created websites about their beliefs were generous enough to lie about their sacred rituals just so that a Christian whom they do not know exists or share any beliefs with could use it in an argument with an atheist they do not know exists or share any beliefs with?  They are quite a generous faith, aren't they?

You are correct about one thing: Wiccans do have sacred acts that are very, very similar to Christian prayer.  It's basically the same thing, except instead of directing it at the Christian God they direct it at one of the Wiccan gods or goddesses.  They don't call it "spells," though; that's something different.  They use a far more strange, obscure, technical term: prayer.

No, prayer and spells are not the same.  They're not even the same within Wicca.  Why is a Christian having to educate you on Wiccan beliefs?  I'm supposed to be shunning them and calling them heathens, remember?  I'm not supposed to be the enlightened, tolerant, educated one.

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Oh really?  Describe a typical prayer for me.  What do you and one of your many godlings chat about?
We chat about anything.  Prayer is simply communication with a deity.

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Oh, no, not the least bit.  You may pray to one of three "pieces" of god (each of them distinct and individual entities) or a virgin mother or a zillion saints, but that is completely and definitley not polytheism.  No way, no how. No sir. Polytheism is something totally different.
Correct again.  Polytheism is totally different from Christian monotheism.  I am glad we are in agreement on this.

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Semantics and pretense.  You've not shown how it is anything other than that. Denials do not an argument or explanation make.
You're the one making the positive claim.  The burden of proof is on you to support that claim.  There is no evidence that transubstantiation is magic.  It's the belief that during the consecration Jesus becomes present in the bread and wine.

Fine, influencing events with supernatural or mysterious forces. It's still not specifying any bias to beliefs, creatures or deities.
It doesn't directly specify, no.  It certainly implies that magic is something performed, as I mentioned before.  As I pointed out, the OED also doesn't specify that atheism isn't a religion, or that the theory of evolution isn't a conjecture, or many other things.  As I also pointed out, none of the examples lend support to your claim that magic applies to the acts of deities.  Lastly, the OED is not the arbiter of the English language (common use is.)

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To my mind, both definitions support my argument, only the one you gave was specific to humans, but when you look at how many 'non-humans' use magic in folklore, mythology, heck, video games and Disney movies, it's fairly clear that the definition is inaccurate in that regard.
It was my understanding that we were discussing "magic" within the context of religion, where the above are generally not applicable.  I will readily accept that "magic" in common use includes extraordinary acts performed by not-divine entities in folklore, myth, and fiction.  I still see no basis on which to accept that reference to any supernatural event as "magic" is common use.

Also, as I said earlier, even if such a definition were to become common use, it would still not be an appropriate definition to apply to religions, because "magic" would mean something different in a religious context.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Seppuku on January 15, 2013, 02:41:22 AM
But exactly how is 'magic' and supernatural power in Christianity different? Except the words people choose to use? If we throw the derogative use out of the window. You've tried convincing me that 'magic' is different because it's about human control, but we know it's not always the case and if it were, it wouldn't exclude Jesus. So really I am trying to figure out exactly where this difference is, I know people tend not to use the word on Christianity because they have other words to describe said power, but I can't see an argument why people couldn't use the term.

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As I pointed out, the OED also doesn't specify that atheism isn't a religion, or that the theory of evolution isn't a conjecture, or many other things.

I already addressed those two. 'Theory' can be conjecture, in the context of science it isn't. The oxford dictionary's definition is broad enough to include both types of 'theory'. People sometimes use the modifier 'scientific' to avoid confusion where confusion may be found. I've some do it and I've done it myself.

Atheism in it's current definition is only the opposite of 'theism', neither terms can be applied to OED's definition of religion, but as I said, one day the word 'atheism' could eventually mean something where it could. There are religious atheists and there are religious theists. I suspect the term 'atheism' could one day change because there are people who use it to mean 'evolution supporting, Dawkins loving religion bashers' but it is not what 'atheism' means, even if I chose a less derogative way of saying it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: 3sigma on January 15, 2013, 06:39:33 AM
Red herring.  Is the alleged broad definition of "magic" common use or neologism?  Your response seems to support the latter.

The definition of magic is the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. That is exactly what religious believers believe their god is doing when they imagine it uses its power to answer their prayers or perform miracles. Calling it magic isn’t a red herring or a neologism—it’s calling a spade a spade. Calling it “God’s power” or a “miracle” is euphemism on the part of religious believers. It’s substituting another word for one considered to be too blunt when referring to something embarrassing. Religious believers certainly should be embarrassed to believe such childish nonsense.


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But of course.  Your monsters are different (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurMonstersAreDifferent), right?

Actually, I don’t believe in any of those monsters at that link, do you? Oh yes, I see you do. You believe in a god and a particularly monstrous god at that—one that’s killed millions. Atheists don’t believe in monsters like your god. The majority of people in the world believe in some god or other. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. Therefore atheism is different from the usual.


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Each theology has its own apologetics.  These are reasoned arguments intended to justify that religion's theology, and often are designed to lead a person to the basis for that theology.  Were atheists to engage in apologetics, they would start with a claim like yours above, defend it against follow-up questions from the outsider ("On what basis do you claim it is reasonable and justifiable?"  "Well x, y, and z, therefore it is both reasonable and justfiable!"), and finally connect it to the basis of atheism ("Thus, it is both reasonable and justifiable to reject deities.")  However, atheists don't practice apologetics, since atheism is not a religion, and therefore this is yet another example of how atheism's monsters are different.

What arrant nonsense. It is the lack of a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to support religious beliefs that makes it reasonable and rational to reject them. It isn’t reasonable or rational to believe something that has no solid evidence or sound arguments supporting it. Anyone who believes there is a god is simply gullible.


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I don't think I'd have to try very hard to convince you that this hypothetical group exists in the US, and in very large numbers.  Currently, that group largely follows the dominant, traditional religious view: Christianity.  If atheism were to become dominant, I suspect that at least some of these bandwagoners would deconvert after a long, thoughtful examination of reality tv shows and teenage pop music.  If that happens, they'll be just as loud, just as stupid, just as prejudiced, and just as embarrassing to whichever view they support.  You're welcome to inherit them.

You seem to be postulating that religion is just some passing fad soon to be overtaken by the trendier atheism. I don’t see religion disappearing or even waning significantly any time soon. As long as there are ignorant, insecure and gullible people in the world, there will be religious beliefs. Religion is also self-perpetuating. Parents instil their insecurities into their children and indoctrinate them with their religious beliefs at an early age, before they’ve had a chance to develop emotional maturity and critical thinking skills.

I don’t think it’s as easy to deconvert people as you seem to think. We don’t see masses of people losing their religious beliefs. Those who do lose their religious beliefs appear to be those who aren’t particularly insecure and who acquire critical thinking skills, either through higher education or their own efforts.


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However, the statements, "atheism is not a religion" and "atheism is a religion" are not grammatically equivalent.  In fact, they are actually grammatical opposites.  So your comparison between my comments on how I don't call atheism a religion and the sentence structure I used in reference to atheism's beliefs (or lack thereof) does not apply.

What on Earth are you on about? You said, “atheism is just another belief (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22962.msg541976.html#msg541976)”. Then, after that ludicrous statement, you tried to claim that you don’t apply labels that aren’t really accurate—another ridiculous statement.


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If you're seriously interested in the definition of prayer, Wikipedia has an entire page on it.  If you're more interested in your made-up definition, then it's probably a waste of your time for you to look it up.

According to the Wikipedia entry, prayer is “an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication.” In other words, it’s wishful thinking. To give us an idea of what prayer is used for, why don’t you tell us what you pray for, Mooby? Some Christians pray for such trivial things as an excuse not to take their daughter to a Batman movie. Are you that shallow or do you make more noble requests for things such as world peace or the elimination of all diseases? After all, the Bible claims that whatever you ask for in prayer you will receive, doesn’t it? Oh, wait, I just read Mark 11:24 more closely and it actually says that if you believe you’ve received it, it’s yours. That sounds like wishful thinking again.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on January 15, 2013, 12:22:49 PM
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Yay, a circular definition!  And one that lets you dodge the obvious parallels between magic and prayer.
I know!  Isn't it convenient that numerous practicing Wiccans out there who created websites about their beliefs were generous enough to lie about their sacred rituals just so that a Christian whom they do not know exists or share any beliefs with could use it in an argument with an atheist they do not know exists or share any beliefs with?  They are quite a generous faith, aren't they?

Dodge.  Number one, trying to foist off the responsibility for giving a circular definition onto someone else is sad.  Sack up and own your response.  But then to characterize it as a lie?  Why Mooby, I don't believe that was what I said, was it?  I simply pointed out your shitty response was shitty because it was circular.

No, prayer and spells are not the same.

Ipse dixit.  Repeating your claim a third time does not make it true (despite the Rule of Three).

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They're not even the same within Wicca.  Why is a Christian having to educate you on Wiccan beliefs?

You aren't doing a very good job of education because you are wrong.  "Within wicca" is not our context.

Here are some wiccans who say it is essentially the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Three_(Wicca)

This guy calls the RCC mass "a classic example of ceremonial high magic"
http://ebon-dragon.com/cotd/prayer_spellwork.html

Every other source I looked at characterized them as I had, given our context.  Some said there were differences, but they were essoteric differences within the context of wicca and they generally conformed with the idea of xian prayer.

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Oh really?  Describe a typical prayer for me.  What do you and one of your many godlings chat about?
We chat about anything.  Prayer is simply communication with a deity.

That is a dodge.  I asked for specifics.  So, you talk about laundry and grocery lists and movies?  Bullshit. 

But let's for a moment, assume you are being honest.  Have you ever asked for strength in a trying time, or patience in stressful situations, or to do well on a test, or for safety before a trip?  Don't lie.

I know when I was a catholic I was encouraged by the clergy to pray for those things.  I wasn't supposed to pray for a pot of gold, but I was supposed to pray for jesus H to help me hit a sharp line drive up the gap when I played Babe Ruth. 

And I would definitely call that trying to work magic.

Not to put too fine a point on it, let's look at some standard Catholic spells prayers.
The Lords Prayer
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Our Father, who farts in heaven, hallowed be thy name,
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespsass against us
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

bold mine. That right there is attempting to alter reality via the supernatural, aka a spell.  It asks the supernatural to provide food.  It also asks the supernatural to do metaphysical things - forgive sins - that affect supernatural aspects of ourselves - our souls.   It then goes on to beg the supernatural to make sure we are not tempted.  It leaves the mode of affecting that result up to the supernatural agents, whether that be keeping temptations our of our way or making us more morally resillient.  That my misguided friend, is a spell.

The Hairy Mary
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Hail Mary...blahblahblah... pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Calls upon supernatural agency to intercede on behalf of the pray-er.  A spell. 

Come Holy ghost
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Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of Thy faithful, and enkindle in them the Fire of Thy Love.
R. Send forth Thy Spirit, and they shall be created;
V. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.
Let us pray.
O God, Who by the Light of the Holy Spirit didst instruct the hearts of Thy faithful, grant us in that same Spirit to be truly wise and ever to rejoice in His consolations, through Christ our Lord. Amen.

In D&D we'd call this Summoning Undead.  It summons a ghost, which the prayer then enjoins to possess one or more devotees to grant them some special power called "Fire of Thy Love".  It also asks the same summoned ghost to imbue the devotees with knowledge and happiness.  A spell.

There you go.  Three Catholic Spells.

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You're the one making the positive claim.  The burden of proof is on you to support that claim.  There is no evidence that transubstantiation is magic.

I quite agree.  It's not magic.  Magic does not exist.  Magic is just a label we put on things we cannot explain, like gods, transbustantiation and gloryholes.

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It's the belief that during the consecration Jesus becomes present in the bread and wine.

Is it the belief or it is the thing? 

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on January 15, 2013, 06:32:29 PM
Sez the feeble minded person that believes a god "poofs" things into existence, "Poofs" seas to split, "poofs" women into salt, and "poofs" dead men's rotten bodies back into life, but wears his thesaurus out trying to avoid the obvious common vernacular word of "magic."
Again, let me know when you're ready for a mature discussion.

Why, do you know someone that is mature and rational that could admit that god's magic is just as insane as a witches' magic?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 09, 2013, 08:41:57 AM

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"22 [...]And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

Hey GamerGirl,

I'm junebug. Let me offer you my perspective please.  If you read the whole chapter, Jesus was trying to teach the people there that the old ways were wrong. No eye for an eye, but love your enemy. Did you read vs. 11. Jesus is saying that the people here on this website, will be blessed, along with gays, and any other human being that has been persecuted for His name sake.  Nobody was as angry as Jesus.  He was trying to teach people not to do the same things they're still doing.  Reading this helped me to believe that God still loves me even though I am gay 8 years ago now.  Then reading on down to vs. 22 He is teaching us to forgive.  Not to hold a grudge, but let it go and receive a blessing or hold on to it and be tormented. It makes perfect sense to me. Standing up for people like you and me got Him tortured and hung on the cross to die.  That is the kind of Love for one another Jesus tried to teach us to have.  No it's not easy I'm struggling with that one right now.  I just got seriously wronged by someone I have been very good to and I'm still hurting from the wound the knife left in my back, but I will find the courage and strength to forgive, because that is what's best for me and world peace.  You know people learning to forgive.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 09, 2013, 09:59:01 AM
I agree that pulling some verses out of context can change the way a verse or teaching is interpreted.  So let's be fair.  Let's look at Matthew 5:22 within its context and see what it tells us:

In Matthew 5:21 (http://bible.cc/matthew/5-21.htm), Jesus sets the basis for comparison by quoting the law against murder: anyone who commits murder is (depending on the translation being used) "liable to the court" or "subject/liable to judgment/punishment."  And so on.  In other words, Jesus acknowledges that the law prescribes a punishment for murder, and I am going to assume that anyone reading Matthew 5:21 agrees that the Biblical punishment for murder is death.  In other words, however Jesus describes the punishment ("liable to the court," "subject to judgment") is understood to mean a death sentence.

In verse 22, he broadens this understanding.  "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and who ever says to his brother, 'you good for nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'you fool' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."  Again, that last part is worded differently depending on the translation, but our understanding of verse 21 should make it pretty clear.  This is a really harsh addition to the law.  You no longer have to murder a person to be guilty of a judgment of death; you simply have to be angry with him!

However, verses 23-24 indicate that there is a way out of this judgment; if the target of your wrath approaches you and makes peace, he has saved you.  He makes it plain, to the target of your wrath, that you are in danger of adverse judgment if he does not act on your behalf.  This is an interesting way of telling people that if you get angry with your fellow man, you are pretty well screwed unless he's nice enough to intercede on your behalf.  Moral of the story?  Don't get angry at someone who isn't generous enough to let you off the hook.

He follows up with similar admonitions for other laws.  Matthew 5:27-28: adultery is wrong (punishable by death in the law) but now just lusting after a woman makes a man guilty of adultery.  He drives home the seriousness of this with his "if your eye/hand is causing you to stumble" teaching (29-30).  He condemns divorce on threat of the same fate.  Just the act of divorce is enough to make one liable.  Verses 33-37 warns against making promises!  Verses 38-42 warns that not helping someone who wronged you is just as risky as taking revenge upon him.  Verses 43-47 extend this idea to your oppressors.  Pray for them, because god treats them just as well as he does you.

Therefore, when Jesus reacts angrily to those he is speaking to in those later verses, he certainly appears to have committed a crime that he claimed will lead to adverse judgment equal to that meted out to murderers.  Euroclydon countered this claim by placing Jesus above such judgments, since he is the one who will do the judging.  In other words, Jesus is guilty of the same "do as I say, but not as I do" attitude that he condemned the Israelite priests for having.  But he's god, so it's okay.

But errr... there is the problem of verse 48, where Jesus closes chapter 5 with a flourish: you must be perfect, just like god.  In other words, god is your role model.  Except for when he calls people "fools."  Because he granted himself a special exception.  Just like the corrupt high priests that he condemned.  Which is totally not hypocritical, because god can't be a hypocrite.  Why?  DUH, because HE'S GOD.  And you're not.  Now get out of his sandbox before he drops you into a fiery pit, just for giggles.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 09, 2013, 10:11:16 AM

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"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

Here again Jesus is getting on the establishment. His point here is you should worry more about keeping your insides clean and not worry so much about your dishes.  Do you know that a Pharisee was a prominent member of the church, like a deacon is today.

I like Luke 20:46-47

46.Beware of the scribes, who desire to walk in long robes, and love salutations (greetings), in the market places, and in the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief places at feast;
47.Who devour widows houses and for a show make long prayers, the same shall receive greater condemnation.

Jesus tried to teach the leaders where they were going wrong, but they refused to believe who Jesus was.


Scribes in Ancient Israel, as in most of the ancient world, were distinguished professionals who could exercise functions we would associate with lawyers, government ministers, judges, or even financiers, as early as the 11th century BCE.[10] Some scribes copied documents, but this was not necessarily part of their job.[11]
The Jewish scribes used the following process for creating copies of the Torah and eventually other books in the Tanakh.
They could only use clean animal skins, both to write on, and even to bind manuscripts.
Each column of writing could have no less than forty-eight, and no more than sixty lines.
The ink must be black, and of a special recipe.
They must say each word aloud while they were writing.
They must wipe the pen and wash their entire bodies before writing the most Holy Name of God, YHVH, every time they wrote it.
There must be a review within thirty days, and if as many as three pages required corrections, the entire manuscript had to be redone.
The letters, words, and paragraphs had to be counted, and the document became invalid if two letters touched each other. The middle paragraph, word and letter must correspond to those of the original document.
The documents could be stored only in sacred places (synagogues, etc.).
As no document containing God's Word could be destroyed, they were stored, or buried, in a genizah.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 09, 2013, 10:57:44 AM

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If you believe in something with mysterious or supernatural powers you are by proxy believe in magic because that's all magic is. Some may use the word 'magic' to discredit somebody's beliefs because 'magic' is considered to be a childish notion, regardless of that, it is still magic and it is no different to believing in fairies and unicorns. The beliefs are no less valid, yet people will put their own beliefs on a different pedestal to try and present their views in a more reasonable light. At the end of the day, they're supernatural, they are based on faith and have nothing really to back themselves up. To my mind they serve better as hypotheses, I am willing to accept that people will have faith, be it God, unicorns or Santa Claus, if they come here naturally I'd attempt to scrutinise them, but none of those beliefs are deserving of more respect than the next and naturally, I consider them all 'magical', because for them to exist in their described form then they'd require magic. Heck, due to the content of the bible and what it has led a certain number of Christians to support, believe and even do, in general I have less respect for Christianity than I do for any ideologies for belief in fairies, unicorns or Santa. On an individual level, I judge Christians for who they are. However, I will not hide by the illusion that Christianity isn't based around magic, regardless of who I respect.

I see your point and it is understandable due to the fact that you do not believe in Creation.  Therefore God does seem like something as insignificant as just silly unreal magic. To the Christian He is they're superior leader, Creator. Know what I mean?  No doubt Christians have been making him look pretty darn bad.  Not all, there are some who genuinely try to be true to God.  Those other ones though, they are the ones we should try to forgive, they really don't know any better.  I feel sorry for them.  I had my anger for awhile, but trust me when I say that   
letting go of that anger opened my eyes and my heart to a whole new understanding of God and my relationship to Him.

So my question is this. God is real, so how could it be magic.  Think of theoretically if you have to, that will be alright.

Your Friendly Junebug
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 09, 2013, 11:39:04 AM
Hi junebug!  I see from our titles that we're both freshmen.  We'll need to be careful while wandering the halls, lest a pack of seniors decide to try to haze us!  I won't carry your books, though.  You're a girl, and they have cooties. :(

Quote from: junebug72
So my question is this. God is real, so how could it be magic.  Think of theoretically if you have to, that will be alright.

I see that in this topic, there has been discussion of whether god "does magic."  If I am understanding correctly, some are drawing a line between what is supernatural, and what is magic.  If I am mistaken in this, please correct me where necessary.  Presuming that my understanding is correct, I would reply as follows:

I'll start with the primary definition of "magic" from a couple of sources on the web:

Google: (noun) The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
Merriam-Webster: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces.
Free Dictionary: The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

Thus, magic is generally assumed to tap into the same supernatural forces that a person might call "miracles" or "divine spirit" or "godly power."  This doesn't mean that there isn't a dividing line.  There is, and it's subjective: magic is BAD.  Divine spirit is GOOD.  Both are manifestations of the supernatural, but are considered to be used for different purposes.

Thus, when the Egyptian sorcerers were able to duplicate the miracles performed by Moses, the modern believer sees conjurers using magic, not holy men performing miracles.  There is nothing to differentiate the acts themselves; there is only subjective interpretation.  Those Egyptian sorcerers would not have considered the situation in reverse, either.  They simply would have seen it as the contest of supernatural forces: the god of Moses against the pantheon of Egyptian gods.  Thus, the distinction between the magic used by wicked men and the divine spirit working through good men was likely not made by the original writer(s) of Exodus.  At the time, they also believed in the existence of multiple gods, and that their god was stronger than anyone else's.

The person who does not believe in god has no reason to draw a distinction either.  For him, "magic" and "miracle" are synonyms.  Different words, same general meaning.  For the believer, who needs to make a distinction between similar (or even identical) actions performed by beings specifically identified as being wicked or good, the words they use are important.  God doesn't perform magic, because magic is what bad people do.  God performs miracles, because miracles is what good people do.  So yes, it's nothing more than a humourous semantics argument for the non-believer, but a critical and clear distinction for the believer.

My view is that the non-believer's approach is pretty straightforward, as it treats synonymous terms as what they are: different words to describe the same or similar things.  The believer has to draw distinctions that require additional explanation and the broadening of definitions to allow or disallow actions that would otherwise be indistinguishable.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 10, 2013, 07:35:46 AM
Quote from: Tonus

But errr... there is the problem of verse 48, where Jesus closes chapter 5 with a flourish: you must be perfect, just like god.  In other words, god is your role model.  Except for when he calls people "fools."  Because he granted himself a special exception.  Just like the corrupt high priests that he condemned.  Which is totally not hypocritical, because god can't be a hypocrite.  Why?  DUH, because HE'S GOD.  And you're not.  Now get out of his sandbox before he drops you into a fiery pit, just for giggles.

first of all let me just say it doesn't offend me that folks here call God's work magic or supernatural, but what i believe is that He is an extraordinary scientist. I don't think Creation had anything to do with magic, but an ingenious scientific accomplishment. thx

Hey Tonus,

Thx for your reply. Okay,  talk about taking verses out of context, wow.  Matthew chapter 5 is the sermon on the mount.  Jesus had accrued a following on His journey from Galilee thru Jerusalem,Decapolis, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.  These people were laiden down with disease and mental problems; "demon possession".  They were no doubt cast out by the "establishment" and their sickness blamed on the devil.   Jesus was trying to comfort these people by tearing down what the church had done to them.  That this is not God's plan for humanity.  Commiting adultery in those days would get you killed, still can, but if you recall the old law was to stone 'em right there on the spot.  Jesus here is saying it is wrong to commit adultery but that it's not mans place to judge but God's.  He is comparing the consequences of adultery to losing a limb.  He does not mean to literally pluck out your eye. The next section is Jesus teaching these people how to be smart about making change.   to conduct yourself in an honorable manner so they may earn respect.  The Greensboro 4 used this same tactic to start a change in civil rights for African Americans and it worked like a charm.  That is why He tells them to be perfect.  To accomplish change, put an end to oppression.  It's kind of hard to hang a good honest person on a cross. well it should have been.  There's no doubt that Jesus's execution slowly but surely put an end to the horrible practice.  He then goes on in chapter 6 to teach these followers to do their charity in secret, don't shout your good works off the mountain tops don't even tell your closest friend.  What's important is God sees and you will receive a heavenly reward.  Which I am sure would be much more glorious than anything man could offer.  And then it gets good.  Jesus tells them not to pray in front of a crowd, a very common church practice still today.  He then gives them the Lord's prayer.

Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come; thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day; our daily bread.
And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from *evil.
For thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory, Forever, Amen

*evil=church and government, who else did they need delivering from?

The next lesson is on greed. Don't lay up treasures on Earth. Lay up treasures in Heaven for they are forever.  He then goes on to tell His starving followers; Be not anxious for food, clothes, or drink and explains God's power over the Earth and that if you have faith in the Master, He will supply your every need. Then here comes my FAVORITE part.  JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED.  the amount of times that ones been broken, well if you count the stars, grains of sand, hairs on every human you might get close.  Then there is prayer.  He encourages His audience to pray.  Ask and receive, seek and you will find, knock and I will open the door.  Then He explains God's Love, being like that of an earthly father; a good earthly father.  Giving his children what they need.  Oh, sorry we're in chapter 7 now, it was a long sermon! :)

The next part is so important I must start a new paragraph!

Matt. ch.7 vs.15-16

15.Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16.Ye shall know them by their fruits.

False prophets.  Wouldn't you say at least 90% of all the pastors/priests out there are false prophets.  They have done awful things in God's name and caused good people like you all to hate Him. That is not good fruit so how could any of them not be false prophets.  Still creating hate, prejudice, greed.  If they truly believe in Jesus they will take off their robes, step down from their pulpits and as equals we could learn and grow.  I do however also strongly suggest one on one time.  You know praying in private.  Jesus did say to pray in private.  However, I think when several people pray for something really important, like say the cure for cancer, or world peace that God really respects our comradery and would answer our prayers.  I would like to see every one around the world come together in prayer for humanity.  It's not impossible.  Just name a time like say tomorrow night at 7pm eastern time all that believe we can do better than this, stop what your doing and really pray for the world, cures, greed, hunger, the brokenhearted. Then I bet my friends that you would have your proof. Then every night same time until God gives us our deliverance from evil.

Godspeed,
Junebug

To God be the Glory, I am His mouth piece
 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 10, 2013, 08:16:41 AM
Quote from: Tonus

The person who does not believe in god has no reason to draw a distinction either.  For him, "magic" and "miracle" are synonyms.  Different words, same general meaning.  For the believer, who needs to make a distinction between similar (or even identical) actions performed by beings specifically identified as being wicked or good, the words they use are important.  God doesn't perform magic, because magic is what bad people do.  God performs miracles, because miracles is what good people do.  So yes, it's nothing more than a humourous semantics argument for the non-believer, but a critical and clear distinction for the believer.

My view is that the non-believer's approach is pretty straightforward, as it treats synonymous terms as what they are: different words to describe the same or similar things.  The believer has to draw distinctions that require additional explanation and the broadening of definitions to allow or disallow actions that would otherwise be indistinguishable.

Well it's hard to completely disagree with you when your basing your opinion on false prophecy.  I see God more as a Scientist, a Master of all there is to know.  And it is quite magical when science creates new and amazing inventions that leave mankind in awed.  Love is magical and God is Love, so it ain't so bad to call God a magician.  What's bad is to call Him a hater!  I read some of the posts on here by the Christian and not once now have they said to you all, that you can deny Him all you want but He is still going to Love you and will Miss you until you find Him.

GOD LOVES YOU ALL SO MUCH, PLEASE STOP LETTING FALSE PROPHECY COME BETWEEN YOU AND OUR AMAZING CREATOR! PLEASE?  HELP ME TURN THIS AROUND. TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! You can not get rid of God that mission is hopeless, what we can do is improve, or evolve for all you scientist out there, what we all know in our hearts to be true.  You should know that the things Christians do that angers you, it breaks God's heart.

Godspeed,
Junebug

To God be the Glory

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 10, 2013, 08:44:34 AM
Quote from: junebug72
Okay,  talk about taking verses out of context, wow.
I think I worked within the context of the arguments that were being made regarding the original post.  I covered a pretty large contiguous block (verses 21-48) without omitting anything that I'm aware of.
Quote from: junebug72
Jesus here is saying it is wrong to commit adultery but that it's not mans place to judge but God's.
But it was god who gave the Israelites the law that allowed them to judge adulterers as worthy of death.  In the section I was discussing, Jesus opens each segment with "you have heard that it was said," which is a reference to the law given to the Israelites by god.  Jesus was not telling them that they could not judge, he was moving the burden of guilt from deed to thought.  Adultery was a stoning offense, but now just the thought of committing adultery was worthy of punishment.  Murder was a capital crime, but now anger was sufficient to put one at risk of divine judgment.

Jesus is saying that acting in a godly manner was not enough.  One had to be like god in thought, not just in deed (hence verse 48: you need to be perfect, like god is perfect).  I think that we're in agreement here, that the gist of his message was for his followers to think clean thoughts in order to avoid impure actions.  The teaching, as I recall it, is that one of Jesus' goals in taking human form was to "fulfill the law" and then to supercede it with a "new covenant."  No longer would god's people have a list of good and bad things to do or avoid, but that they had to develop a mental attitude that would guide them towards good and away from bad.  None of that affects the point I made in my previous post about Matthew 5:21-48, and how it applies to the discussion following the initial post in this topic.
Quote from: junebug72
Be not anxious for food, clothes, or drink and explains God's power over the Earth and that if you have faith in the Master, He will supply your every need.
This will come as a painful surprise to those around the world who have put their trust in god and continue to suffer and want for even basic needs.  Often, when their plight is brought up to believers, we are told that either their suffering is part of god's plan, or that perhaps they're not being truly sincere in their approach.  The first explanation runs afoul of Jesus' promise in Matthew 6:25-33.  He does not promise his followers that they'll be cared for 'unless I arbitrarily decide otherwise.'  There are no qualifiers on his promise that god will care for those who put his kingdom first in their hearts.  The second is often self-condemning, as nearly every believer has had a time when they asked god for something and did not receive a reply.  Sorry, guess you just didn't want it badly enough.

I've never understood the confusion with the "judge not" part of the Sermon on the Mount.  Jesus is not telling people not to judge, he is telling them to, well... apply their judgments judiciously.  The context makes it clear that he's talking about providing counsel, or advice, to those in need.  If you do not have your own affairs in order, then any counsel you give may be discounted.  A person who counsels another person to avoid alcohol may not be taken seriously if he's known for his frequent bouts of drunkenness.

Anyway, after that part, he continues to promise his followers that if they ask, god will provide.  See above for how well that seems to be working.
Quote from: junebug72
False prophets.  Wouldn't you say at least 90% of all the pastors/priests out there are false prophets.
You're off by about 10%. :)
Quote from: junebug72
I think when several people pray for something really important, like say the cure for cancer, or world peace that God really respects our comradery and would answer our prayers.  I would like to see every one around the world come together in prayer for humanity.
Well, it's a far cry from "several people" to "everyone around the world."  In Matthew 18:20, Jesus promises that wherever there are two or three gathered in his name, he is with them.  If the only thing preventing the eradication of cancer or war is the heartfelt prayers of two or three people, then believers have been slacking off pretty badly!

I think that this shows the way that believers work around facts or circumstances that undermine what they (or their religions) teach.  The Bible tells us that god will answer prayers and grant whatever we ask for.  When that doesn't happen, we change the rules to explain why this is so.  There weren't enough people praying.  They didn't pray long enough.  They weren't sincere enough.  It's not that god is being capricious and adding requirements that we can't meet; his explanation of the power of prayer is both simple and clear: ask for something, and I will provide.  It shouldn't take anything more than that to provide proof of the power of prayer by eradicating cancer or achieving world peace.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 10, 2013, 08:58:15 AM
Quote from: junebug72
Well it's hard to completely disagree with you when your basing your opinion on false prophecy.
I don't have much of a choice.  A prophecy based on any of the ancient texts (or even any of the modern ones) is false.  Which is to say that aside from about 40% of sports predictions, just about all prophecy is false.

As for "god as scientist," it's an intriguing idea.  That is what many religions teach, that god is a man of science and that science provides evidence of the existence of a creator.  The problem is, science hasn't done that.  Over the centuries, science has chipped away at the evidence that there is a god, providing explanations for what we see and experience that don't require an external, mystic force.  As far as I can recall, the "scientific" evidence for god is emotional, not scientific.  It amounts to "look at this awesome (DNA, view of space, gorgeous waterfall, beautiful baby, etc) and tell me that god doesn't exist!!!"  That's an emotional argument.  Requests for scientific proof of god's handiwork tend to result in either emotional arguments or a dismissal of the request via a flurry of logical fallacies and bizarre theorizing.
Quote from: junebug72
You can not get rid of God that mission is hopeless
I hope not.  I think that humanity will eventually grow out of our "god phase."  I am afraid that it won't happen until long after I've passed on, but I think it's inevitable.  In any case, I think that most atheists are less concerned with "getting rid of god" than they are with continuing to diminish his role in society and culture and especially politics, where religion and its ideas can be forced upon those of us who are perfectly happy living without either.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 10, 2013, 11:03:42 AM

Quote
I think I worked within the context of the arguments that were being made regarding the original post.  I covered a pretty large contiguous block (verses 21-48) without omitting anything that I'm aware of.

I'm sorry Tonus but you have twisted this around along with the mother of this post to win your own argument. You are doing the same thing that Christians do. Taking inspiration and turning it into some thing bad. 

Quote
But it was god who gave the Israelites the law that allowed them to judge adulterers as worthy of death.  In the section I was discussing, Jesus opens each segment with "you have heard that it was said," which is a reference to the law given to the Israelites by god.  Jesus was not telling them that they could not judge, he was moving the burden of guilt from deed to thought.  Adultery was a stoning offense, but now just the thought of committing adultery was worthy of punishment.  Murder was a capital crime, but now anger was sufficient to put one at risk of divine judgment.

God's law said though shalt not kill and not one person in that crowd stood up to Moses and said that don't make sense.  That was Moses's own anger and intolerance that was the birth of hatred and capital punishment.  I think that's why God did not allow Moses into the promise land and it had nothing to do with sanctifying the water in the desert, but that is what he told the people. And so it began He blamed His weakness on God instead of taking responsibility for his own actions.  And that my friend is human nature, especially when you have a lot to loose. 

Quote
Jesus is saying that acting in a godly manner was not enough.  One had to be like god in thought, not just in deed (hence verse 48: you need to be perfect, like god is perfect).  I think that we're in agreement here, that the gist of his message was for his followers to think clean thoughts in order to avoid impure actions.  The teaching, as I recall it, is that one of Jesus' goals in taking human form was to "fulfill the law" and then to supercede it with a "new covenant."  No longer would god's people have a list of good and bad things to do or avoid, but that they had to develop a mental attitude that would guide them towards good and away from bad.  None of that affects the point I made in my previous post about Matthew 5:21-48, and how it applies to the discussion following the initial post in this topic.

Yes Jesus was here to fulfill the law.  The prophecy of Elijah and Daniel.  That He will come and be rejected and die so that all may live.  He didn't run away or hide from His horrific fate, but embraced it out of LOVE for you and all mankind.

Quote
This will come as a painful surprise to those around the world who have put their trust in god and continue to suffer and want for even basic needs.  Often, when their plight is brought up to believers, we are told that either their suffering is part of god's plan, or that perhaps they're not being truly sincere in their approach.  The first explanation runs afoul of Jesus' promise in Matthew 6:25-33.  He does not promise his followers that they'll be cared for 'unless I arbitrarily decide otherwise.'  There are no qualifiers on his promise that god will care for those who put his kingdom first in their hearts.  The second is often self-condemning, as nearly every believer has had a time when they asked god for something and did not receive a reply.  Sorry, guess you just didn't want it badly enough.

First of all, Jesus explains that if you want God to hear your prayers you must first hear the lesson from the sermon.  The way Christianity is practiced is not the way of Jesus.  Which what really could be summed up by saying preserve life by being noble.  Don't give the establishment a reason to take your life.  Set a good example for your fellow man.  Shine your light and stay out of the dark.  Sow seeds of kindness and your harvest will be bountiful.  His sermon on the mount saved countless lives. Still does!

Quote
I've never understood the confusion with the "judge not" part of the Sermon on the Mount.  Jesus is not telling people not to judge, he is telling them to, well... apply their judgments judiciously.  The context makes it clear that he's talking about providing counsel, or advice, to those in need.  If you do not have your own affairs in order, then any counsel you give may be discounted.  A person who counsels another person to avoid alcohol may not be taken seriously if he's known for his frequent bouts of drunkenness.

Jesus is making the point that before you judge someone else take a good look at yourself, for you too will be judged.   The confusion comes in due to the fact that if they focused on that part of the Bible then they couldn't be so judgmental. ;D And since there is no man without flaw He is telling us not to judge, to keep our own selves in check.  He also advises that if you find yourself the judgee to just agree and go to prison save your life, it's not worth it.  The drunken elders is in Ephesians I do believe.  It is part of a letter that Paul wrote while he was in prison for preaching that God loves the uncircumcised as well as the circumcised.  And that is how the modern church was born.  The uncircumcised converting to the One God and away from paganism.  He was advising the elders to stay sober in order to give wise advice.  I tell you people really had it hard in those days and most of the changes that we enjoy today are thanks to the Death of Jesus Christ.

Quote
Anyway, after that part, he continues to promise his followers that if they ask, god will provide.  See above for how well that seems to be working.

Well, it's a far cry from "several people" to "everyone around the world."  In Matthew 18:20, Jesus promises that wherever there are two or three gathered in his name, he is with them.  If the only thing preventing the eradication of cancer or war is the heartfelt prayers of two or three people, then believers have been slacking off pretty badly

I think that this shows the way that believers work around facts or circumstances that undermine what they (or their religions) teach.  The Bible tells us that god will answer prayers and grant whatever we ask for.  When that doesn't happen, we change the rules to explain why this is so.  There weren't enough people praying.  They didn't pray long enough.  They weren't sincere enough.  It's not that god is being capricious and adding requirements that we can't meet; his explanation of the power of prayer is both simple and clear: ask for something, and I will provide.  It shouldn't take anything more than that to provide proof of the power of prayer by eradicating cancer or achieving world peace.

It's kind of simple if you look at it like this.  Jesus said Love one another as I have loved you.  If you're not doing that, more than likely your prayer will not be answered.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on March 10, 2013, 12:47:24 PM
@Junebug

that last portion about answering prayers, how do you reconcile that with children starving to death who's prayers go unanswered? I mean toddlers, 2, 3, 4... How do you respond to Christians who feel that god no longer interacts with the world in any detectable fashion?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 10, 2013, 01:20:31 PM
Quote from: junebug72
I'm sorry Tonus but you have twisted this around along with the mother of this post to win your own argument. You are doing the same thing that Christians do. Taking inspiration and turning it into some thing bad.
I'd like a little more than just an assertion that I've twisted anything.  How so?  Are there any particular parts of my post that you feel would undermine the whole, if they were changed?  And how would you change them?  If your response is that my post simply cannot be salvaged, then I suppose we'll just have to disagree and let the posts speak for themselves.
Quote from: junebug72
God's law said though shalt not kill and not one person in that crowd stood up to Moses and said that don't make sense.
Well, of course not.  To speak up against the word of god would probably not have ended well.
Quote from: junebug72
That was Moses's own anger and intolerance that was the birth of hatred and capital punishment.  I think that's why God did not allow Moses into the promise land and it had nothing to do with sanctifying the water in the desert, but that is what he told the people. And so it began He blamed His weakness on God instead of taking responsibility for his own actions.  And that my friend is human nature, especially when you have a lot to loose.
I... have a creeping feeling that I know how this discussion is going to end.

You're saying that the Biblical record says one thing, but another actually happened?  I admit that I cannot work with that.  I can use the Old and New Testament to make or dissect certain points or beliefs, but The Holy Scriptures of Junebug are not in my personal library.  If I were to just add or redact portions of the Bible to make it fit my worldview... huh.  That kind of explains why there are so many different denominations of Christianity.  Ah well, let's soldier on.
Quote from: junebug72
First of all, Jesus explains that if you want God to hear your prayers you must first hear the lesson from the sermon.  The way Christianity is practiced is not the way of Jesus.
This is more of what you said above.  Again, I can only go by what I read in the Bible.  In this case, the book of Matthew.  You are quoting from the book of Junebug.  I don't happen to have that particular translation.

The book of Junebug seems to be saying that if you thought you were being a good Christian and following Jesus' example and you and a group of similarly loyal Christians pray for a cure for cancer and it doesn't work... one or more of you just don't measure up.  Go back and hear the lesson from the sermon.  Now, practice Christianity differently.  Be noble.  Avoid the death penalty.  Be a good example.  Avoid power outages.  Be kind.  Now... try that prayer again, and say goodbye to cancer and war!  Honest, the book of Junebug sounds a bit better than the book of Matthew.  But I suspect that it's getting the same results.  Hang on... *checks the news* ...yeah, people still get cancer and fight wars.

That probably sounds a bit too snarky and insulting, and is kind of uncalled for.  I apologize, Junebug.
Quote from: junebug72
It's kind of simple if you look at it like this.  Jesus said Love one another as I have loved you.  If you're not doing that, more than likely your prayer will not be answered.
...although I am pretty sure I wasn't as insulting as this. :o

(Note: not insulting to me, as I don't believe that Jesus or god exists.  But anyone who has prayed for divine help in a time of need and did not get an answer, or an answer they wanted, and is told that he or she wasn't living up to Jesus' example would probably get kind of angry... and then they'd be risking judgment, according to Matthew 5:21,22.  So we've come full circle!)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 17, 2013, 09:00:24 AM

Quote
You're saying that the Biblical record says one thing, but another actually happened?  I admit that I cannot work with that.  I can use the Old and New Testament to make or dissect certain points or beliefs, but The Holy Scriptures of Junebug are not in my personal library.  If I were to just add or redact portions of the Bible to make it fit my worldview... huh.  That kind of explains why there are so many different denominations of Christianity.  Ah well, let's soldier on.

First I think I should first explain my view on the Bible.  The Bible can be a good study guide but I believe whether or not it's the undisputed word of God is debatable.  After all the author of every book is human and unfortunately humans make mistakes.  I know this one's going to really blow you away. I believe God is the very one that opened my mind to this. Think of the Native American.  They are very spiritual people.  That's what God is all about, the spirit of a man, not the flesh.  They never had a Bible to read, but they understood that you need a clean spirit for a good afterlife. The spirit is what a person really is, not the outer vessel of flesh.  That is the basic foundation for all religion's of the world.  How can you really know God without studying them all?  I'll have to admit that I've been slacking the last few years, I found the answers I was looking for and just stopped studying.  I will have to say that finding those answers started a healing in me that I had been searching for, for a long time. 

Quote
The book of Junebug seems to be saying that if you thought you were being a good Christian and following Jesus' example and you and a group of similarly loyal Christians pray for a cure for cancer and it doesn't work... one or more of you just don't measure up.  Go back and hear the lesson from the sermon.  Now, practice Christianity differently.  Be noble.  Avoid the death penalty.  Be a good example.  Avoid power outages.  Be kind.  Now... try that prayer again, and say goodbye to cancer and war!  Honest, the book of Junebug sounds a bit better than the book of Matthew.  But I suspect that it's getting the same results.  Hang on... *checks the news* ...yeah, people still get cancer and fight wars.

That probably sounds a bit too snarky and insulting, and is kind of uncalled for.  I apologize, Junebug.

...although I am pretty sure I wasn't as insulting as this. :o

(Note: not insulting to me, as I don't believe that Jesus or god exists.  But anyone who has prayed for divine help in a time of need and did not get an answer, or an answer they wanted, and is told that he or she wasn't living up to Jesus' example would probably get kind of angry... and then they'd be risking judgment, according to Matthew 5:21,22.  So we've come full circle!)

You know you're right tonus. That is rather harsh.  God doesn't make the wars man does.  Even if the war is over God, it is the man that decides to fight and kill over it.  Even when they say the God they're fighting over commands them not to kill.  Boggles my mind. :? I try to love them, but it's not easy.  I get angry when I see what all this bad religion has done to mans relationship to God, because in my world, we all need each other to pass this test and so far we are not doing so good. Getting better, but we still have a long way to go.

It is hard to explain why God doesn't answer all prayers. That is why faith in His infinite knowledge through a crisis is so important.  When you loose faith you can not see it; it being God's Love.  Man see's dying as such a bad thing, I'm still afraid, I'm not ready, but  through my faith, that fear is slowly but surely fading away.  The one's we Love that we have lost are in Heaven, and that comforts my soul.  I know this is random but, that reminds me of the funerals where they are rejoicing for their lost loved one.  I look up at the sky sometimes and I can see my parents sitting on a cloud enjoying their new found freedom and I feel like I'm in the presence of something a lot bigger than "me".  It's kind of over whelming, but joyful all at the same time.  I know it would take me longer if it were my son I had to let go, and anger towards God would be understandable,  all anger towards God is, but nevertheless,  I would have to keep my faith to survive that, no doubt.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 17, 2013, 10:26:28 AM
@Junebug

that last portion about answering prayers, how do you reconcile that with children starving to death who's prayers go unanswered? I mean toddlers, 2, 3, 4... How do you respond to Christians who feel that god no longer interacts with the world in any detectable fashion?

God works through us, so when you see two grown men give their lives for a little boy you can take comfort in knowing those men did that out of Love and any action that is done for another out of Love is God working through us.  I'm sure God has His hand on those children and He tells us through the teachings of Jesus that when a child is put away by it's parents that He will take care of the child.  I believe that means He will take them into Heaven and they will be the mightiest in all of Heaven.  People need to quit having kids if they can't feed them.  In this country there are food stamps for people that can not buy their own food. Churches and shelters that feed the hungry in their service to God is evidence of God's love.  That is why we are supposed to give the credit to God when we  help our fellow man, instead of taking the thanks for ourselves.  So that it's not hard to see God's Love.  Those starving children are not suffering in vain either.  Through their suffering the human heart is softened and may very well eventually lead to peace on earth.  It is so sad that children or any human has had to die before mankind changes for the better. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on March 17, 2013, 12:23:41 PM

God works through us, so when you see two grown men give their lives for a little boy you can take comfort in knowing those men did that out of Love and any action that is done for another out of Love is God working through us.  I'm sure God has His hand on those children and He tells us through the teachings of Jesus that when a child is put away by it's parents that He will take care of the child.  I believe that means He will take them into Heaven and they will be the mightiest in all of Heaven.  People need to quit having kids if they can't feed them.  In this country there are food stamps for people that can not buy their own food. Churches and shelters that feed the hungry in their service to God is evidence of God's love.  That is why we are supposed to give the credit to God when we  help our fellow man, instead of taking the thanks for ourselves.  So that it's not hard to see God's Love.  Those starving children are not suffering in vain either.  Through their suffering the human heart is softened and may very well eventually lead to peace on earth.  It is so sad that children or any human has had to die before mankind changes for the better. 

You kind of took this elsewhere, and made unsupported assertions. I do things out of love all the time while knowing there is no such thing as god, so that concept does not get the credit for what I do, nor do I care if anyone actually gets credit just so long as imaginary characters dont get credit. My stance is whoever does the act gets the credit if need be.

But you seem to agree with the idea that your god, even in your POV, has no detectable effect in our world, instead everything is done by people. With that I agree. Do you not see that you moving the goal posts for your god relieves him of any responsibility for that starving child. You see, no one needs to be taken care of in heaven, so that makes no sense, unless you believe that even in heaven people (or whatever you think people will be) are still dependent on others which defeats the purpose. You also suggest there is a caste system in heaven, dont you see that these systems of better and worse are a main problem here on earth? It seems as though your version of heaven is just earth again, no?

And I agree, if people cant take care of kids they shouldnt have them, except according to all Christians I know, each one of those kids is planned, even the ones that die during child birth. Or those that struggle for life for a few years then die a virtual skeleton. What you apparently fail to realize is there is a world outside of the US where there are no food banks, where children through no fault of their own starve despite the myth of Jesus loving the little children. Perhaps he should do his share, no? Make some fishes and bread appear, no?

And also to justify starving children with "softening the human heart" is scary and dare I say evil. You see the human condition is getting better and better as we move away from superstition and towards reality.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Graybeard on March 17, 2013, 04:03:16 PM
I see God more as a Scientist, a Master of all there is to know.
Do you accept that God has given us those scientific laws that explain the Universe?

Quote
And it is quite magical when science creates new and amazing inventions that leave mankind in awed. 
"science" does not create anything. Men and women who understand science create all those awesome things, don't they.

Those brilliant men and women use scientific laws, don't they?

Now, creating an earth requires that you get the dirt from somewhere, doesn't it? So where does God get the dirt from, if it isn't magic?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 17, 2013, 09:18:00 PM
First I think I should first explain my view on the Bible.  The Bible can be a good study guide but I believe whether or not it's the undisputed word of God is debatable.  After all the author of every book is human and unfortunately humans make mistakes.  I know this one's going to really blow you away. I believe God is the very one that opened my mind to this. Think of the Native American.  They are very spiritual people.  That's what God is all about, the spirit of a man, not the flesh.  They never had a Bible to read, but they understood that you need a clean spirit for a good afterlife. The spirit is what a person really is, not the outer vessel of flesh.  That is the basic foundation for all religion's of the world.  How can you really know God without studying them all?  I'll have to admit that I've been slacking the last few years, I found the answers I was looking for and just stopped studying.  I will have to say that finding those answers started a healing in me that I had been searching for, for a long time.
I'm glad for you, and I mean that genuinely.  If you've found something that makes life easier to cope with or better overall, good for you.  Some people --like me-- find our freedom in letting religion and god go, others find happiness in embracing it.  Obviously, we've ventured into areas where there isn't really anything to debate, as I already noted.  So I'll just say 'good luck' and leave it at that.

My feeling remains that it makes sense for the god of the universe, a loving god, a just god, a fair and honest god, to reveal himself to us plainly and fully.  Not to a few at a time, and only when they meet a strict and bizarre set of criteria that no one seems to understand.  But to everyone, in a manner that is not ambiguous or equivocal so that we know who he is and what he wants of us.  Surely, a being whose holy book demands so much from us would clear all matters up instead of leaving us to our own devices and punishing us for not reading his mind.  I have long since stopped waiting for that, and just gotten on with life.  Whatever works, eh?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 18, 2013, 08:30:00 AM
First I think I should first explain my view on the Bible.  The Bible can be a good study guide but I believe whether or not it's the undisputed word of God is debatable. 

A good study guide for what?  The Joy of Cooking may be a reasonably good study guide for recipes, and to some extent, cooking, but a terrible source for existentialist philosophy.   Ostensibly, the bible is a guide to what yhwh wants/ demands of his hebrew cult.  But if it is on shaky ground as to whether or not it represents what god wants, then in what way is it good as a study guide?

edit - shaking -->shaky
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on March 18, 2013, 09:42:37 AM
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Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 24, 2013, 07:07:40 AM
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You kind of took this elsewhere, and made unsupported assertions. I do things out of love all the time while knowing there is no such thing as god, so that concept does not get the credit for what I do, nor do I care if anyone actually gets credit just so long as imaginary characters dont get credit. My stance is whoever does the act gets the credit if need be.

But you seem to agree with the idea that your god, even in your POV, has no detectable effect in our world, instead everything is done by people. With that I agree. Do you not see that you moving the goal posts for your god relieves him of any responsibility for that starving child. You see, no one needs to be taken care of in heaven, so that makes no sense, unless you believe that even in heaven people (or whatever you think people will be) are still dependent on others which defeats the purpose. You also suggest there is a caste system in heaven, dont you see that these systems of better and worse are a main problem here on earth? It seems as though your version of heaven is just earth again, no?

And I agree, if people cant take care of kids they shouldnt have them, except according to all Christians I know, each one of those kids is planned, even the ones that die during child birth. Or those that struggle for life for a few years then die a virtual skeleton. What you apparently fail to realize is there is a world outside of the US where there are no food banks, where children through no fault of their own starve despite the myth of Jesus loving the little children. Perhaps he should do his share, no? Make some fishes and bread appear, no?

And also to justify starving children with "softening the human heart" is scary and dare I say evil. You see the human condition is getting better and better as we move away from superstition and towards reality.

Hi Gawd,

Let me start by saying that I am certainly not evil.  I was not trying to justify starving children, the comment I made was in reference to"some"comfort.  It had absolutely nothing to do with justification.

I think if it gets to the point that God has to intervene the consequences for the rest of us could very well be mighty grim. Wouldn't it be better for all of us, I mean every single person on this planet, the whole human race if we stood together and demand change in the politics that have lead to poverty. There is a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wolfe, an economist that has some good ideas about how to put an end to poverty, and the only way we will do that is together.
 
The Christians I know say the same thing, God knows everything before it happens.  They also say we are not puppets on a string.  It is like much of the things they say, a contradiction.  One thing I've learned on my "vision quest" is that to know God you must rely on History and Science. You have to distinguish the rhetoric from the truth.  For example, I was watching two men on a Christian broadcast channel a couple of days ago, and they actually said that God promotes capitalism, I do not agree. I would not have known this except that I've done "my own" homework. Most importantly you have to have an open mind and heart. See to me, God understands why atheist are atheist and eternal torture is not on God's mind at all, AT ALL.  Right now it just takes 10 preachers to lead 300 people the wrong way. There are 10's of 1000's of preachers out there! You are better off to be an atheist than a brainwashed sheep of a sheep. God's love is not uneven though. He loves those brainwashed sheep and the misguided sheep that lead them.

God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.  There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?  History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.  Could you handle that decision? Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?  Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 24, 2013, 07:19:59 AM
Quote
Those brilliant men and women use scientific laws, don't they?

Now, creating an earth requires that you get the dirt from somewhere, doesn't it? So where does God get the dirt from, if it isn't magic?

Hi Graybeard,

I should have said scientist.  God got the dirt from the elements and His knowledge of science.  Everything He needed to create the earth was right there at His disposal. I do not know where God comes from, but I believe the answer will be revealed to me when I cross to the other side.  That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 24, 2013, 07:59:41 AM
Quote
That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.

Except for when you can know and state with absolute certainty exactly what god knows. Makes sense.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: wheels5894 on March 24, 2013, 08:27:39 AM
Quote
Those brilliant men and women use scientific laws, don't they?

Now, creating an earth requires that you get the dirt from somewhere, doesn't it? So where does God get the dirt from, if it isn't magic?

Hi Graybeard,

I should have said scientist.  God got the dirt from the elements and His knowledge of science.  Everything He needed to create the earth was right there at His disposal. I do not know where God comes from, but I believe the answer will be revealed to me when I cross to the other side.  That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.

Interesting - so not only was god there before the universe was formed but there was also a long of other things in terms of information and so on. Now, two questions arise, June -

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 24, 2013, 08:52:02 AM
God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.  There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?  History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.  Could you handle that decision? Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?  Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!

Read up on the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.  They have donated billions of dollars to various humanitarian efforts, and have made quite a bit of progress in the fight against malaria.  It's a good example of how people around the globe are coming together to help solve problems and give needy people a helping hand and a fighting chance.

Humanity has been making progress, thanks to its own efforts and action.  Prayer makes people feel good.  Intelligently-applied knowledge through action actually does a lot of good.  I think humanity will use the latter to continue to make the world a better place.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: JeffPT on March 24, 2013, 09:19:13 AM
Let me start by saying that I am certainly not evil. 

If you worship a god that allows about 30,000 children to die every single day of starvation, millions to die every year of cancer and other ridiculously unnecessary conditions, then you've got to do better than simply asserting that you're not evil.  Perhaps you're not evil yourself, but you certainly condone it. 

I think if it gets to the point that God has to intervene the consequences for the rest of us could very well be mighty grim.

Why?  Please explain why it would be 'grim' to have God simply come down and give starving children some food?  Why would that be awful?  Be specific here.  What would be grim about that? 

And if that is really your position, then do you believe God never intervenes?  Do you believe he has ever intervened in your life?  And if he did, was it 'grim' when he did?   

Wouldn't it be better for all of us, I mean every single person on this planet, the whole human race if we stood together and demand change in the politics that have lead to poverty. There is a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wolfe, an economist that has some good ideas about how to put an end to poverty, and the only way we will do that is together.

Of course it would, but does Mr. Wolfe have omnipotence?  No?  Your God does, doesn't he?  What's the problem then?  Why would it be 'grim' for God to solve some of our problems, yet wonderful if Mr. Wolfe solved them? 

If God did not exist, would that not satisfactorily explain why starving children die and God does nothing to stop it?  A non-existent God wouldn't fix starvation either.  Doesn't that make infinitely more sense? 
 
The Christians I know say the same thing, God knows everything before it happens.  They also say we are not puppets on a string.  It is like much of the things they say, a contradiction. 

Follow that line of thought to it's logical end. 

One thing I've learned on my "vision quest" is that to know God you must rely on History and Science. You have to distinguish the rhetoric from the truth. For example, I was watching two men on a Christian broadcast channel a couple of days ago, and they actually said that God promotes capitalism, I do not agree.

What makes you right and them wrong?  Or vice versa?  Is it because you have factual evidence of God's position on capitalism versus other economic systems?  Or is it because you just believe it with all your heart that 'your god' would never promote capitalism?  Have you spoken directly to God to get his position?  If you are going to distinguish rhetoric from the truth, in this case, wouldn't you require direct evidence from God himself?  And if you don't have that, which I am 100% sure you don't, what process are you relying on to separate rhetoric from truth? 

The processes you use to distinguish rhetoric from truth is what makes all the difference. 

I would not have known this except that I've done "my own" homework.

And you're saying they haven't? 

Most importantly you have to have an open mind and heart.

Being open minded means considering that your positions may or may not be correct.  Is it possible for you to admit that you could be wrong about God?  If not, then you're not open minded. 

See to me, God understands why atheist are atheist and eternal torture is not on God's mind at all, AT ALL. 

That is because that's the god you want to worship.  You don't like the idea of worshiping a God that eternally tortures.  You are super-imposing the God you wish were true onto your beliefs, when in reality, what you would like to believe about God has no bearing at all on what God is actually like.  If God were not real, then saying we are going to be tortured for eternity is just stupid.  It's of absolutely no concern to me.  Heaven and Hell are fake.  It's not even a remote concern. 

Right now it just takes 10 preachers to lead 300 people the wrong way. There are 10's of 1000's of preachers out there! You are better off to be an atheist than a brainwashed sheep of a sheep. God's love is not uneven though. He loves those brainwashed sheep and the misguided sheep that lead them.

Or God doesn't exist at all and preachers are all telling their flocks what they, themselves believe instead of what the actual truth is.  And it's so funny how secure you seem to be in all of this.  How confident you are in thinking that you've got it right and everyone else has it wrong.  What makes you think, even for a moment, that you are doing it right and all those others are doing it wrong?  Seriously... I'd like to know that.   

God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.

For what?  What purpose does it serve God for us to learn from our mistakes?  Learning from mistakes is inherently beneficial for humans, not for God.  If God did not exist, we would still be better off learning from our mistakes.  So you saying that GOD wants us to learn from our mistakes, is nothing more than again super-imposing something that we all think is good onto your fictitious supernatural deity. 

There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?

And do you really understand that a being that stands over the emaciated bodies of starving children, all the while with the power to fix it, and does nothing, is evil? 

What would you think of God if he came down, right now and gave a starving child some food?  What would you think of him?  Would you think... "How awful is that!  God, what are you doing!?  That's so... grim... of you to feed that starving child"?  No.  You'd love it.  So would I.  But that's not God.  God stands idly by and watches them die as the family screams out in agony. 

God isn't real.  That's why starving children die.  Humanity could stop it, but that's an answer an atheist gives, not a Christian. 

History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.

The bible is just a book with claims in it.  Those claims have to be studied in order to distinguish rhetoric from the truth.  As you said.  Perhaps you should do that. 

Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?

What does that have to do with anything you're talking about?

Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!

Here are 2 available solutions.   

1.  Man fixes hunger by technological advances, better politics, improved sanitation, etc, etc.  This is incredibly hard to put into action and requires immense amounts of work that, in the end, may actually doom the planet from overpopulation. 

2.  God fixes hunger with the snap of his fingers.  This requires zero effort on anyone's part.

You keep saying it... over and over again... that it's mans problem to solve.  If it's man's problem to solve, then fine.  I agree with you that it's man's problem to solve.  But what if one man had omnipotence and chose NOT to solve that problem?  What would you think of him?  That's your God.   It may not be the God you like, but if God exists, the one that actually exists has the power to end hunger with a single thought and CHOOSES not to.  Why would any sane person worship that?  Stop 'believing in your heart' that God is good and start using your brain to figure these things out.  You just might be a sheep, who's been led to believe certain things about a God that really might not be up there.  And if he is up there, you really might be justified in condemning him. 

Let me be perfectly clear... the God you worship as the greatest being in all the universe, allows massive suffering and death on a global scale, and does nothing to stop it.  If he exists at all, that is the absolute truth.  It is a fact.  There is no getting around it.  If you were a moral human being who truly believes in God, then you should be condemning God for that, but you choose not to.  Why?  You might be evil.  You might be immoral.  Or you just might be brainwashed to believe that God is good and everything in your life revolves around that, so you work to excuse the evil instead of condemning it.  The people in Hitler's Germany were also brainwashed to think of him as good too.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe you've been duped like that too?  Probably not. 

You can 'believe in your heart' that God is good all you want, but actions are what should be judged here.  Not your feelings. 

I ask again... If God was not real, would that explain why he doesn't help starving children?  Just think about that, please.  No excuse you can come up with to explain away why God doesn't help starving children is better at explaining why there are starving children than simply admitting that God isn't real. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 24, 2013, 09:20:11 AM
Quote
I'm glad for you, and I mean that genuinely.  If you've found something that makes life easier to cope with or better overall, good for you.  Some people --like me-- find our freedom in letting religion and god go, others find happiness in embracing it.  Obviously, we've ventured into areas where there isn't really anything to debate, as I already noted.  So I'll just say 'good luck' and leave it at that.

My feeling remains that it makes sense for the god of the universe, a loving god, a just god, a fair and honest god, to reveal himself to us plainly and fully.  Not to a few at a time, and only when they meet a strict and bizarre set of criteria that no one seems to understand.  But to everyone, in a manner that is not ambiguous or equivocal so that we know who he is and what he wants of us.  Surely, a being whose holy book demands so much from us would clear all matters up instead of leaving us to our own devices and punishing us for not reading his mind.  I have long since stopped waiting for that, and just gotten on with life.  Whatever works, eh?

Thanks Tonus, that really means a lot to me. I am also glad that you have found peace as well.

The bible is clear on what God wants from us. To LOVE Him and to LOVE each other.  What is so complicated about that? Jesus gave His life so that WE could know that.  Could you imagine a world where we all looked out for each other.  That's the way it was before money was invented.  It took the whole tribe working together to survive. Now a days if several million people have to live in poverty so that a few can be so rich, so what.  That is a long way from our humble beginning.

You know when I was 16 and pregnant with my son, I wanted my parents to help me but they didn't.  It hurt like hell.  I couldn't understand why my parents that were supposed to love me didn't save me from myself.  Why won't God help me? Hind sight being 20/20 I learned valuable skills that help me be strong in the eyes of heartache, and I've had my share, that I would not have acquired had they done it for me.  The relationship between God and man is like the relationship between a parent and a child.  Our parents know what's best for us when we do not.  Even though it hurts you have to let your children make mistakes so they can learn. Just a year ago my son got hooked on pain pills.  He was intolerable.  I had to cut him off and boy was he mad at me!  It didn't take long for him to realize that I did it because I loved him and it was not easy for me to let him be homeless and hungry.  This eventually brought us closer to one another.  This is so small compared to God's task of fathering, what is it now 7 billion people. I know He brought it on Himself by creating us, I don't think God is complaining about His task, I am just asking you to understand it? Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone you love is nothing! 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 24, 2013, 09:32:50 AM
Quote
Read up on the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.  They have donated billions of dollars to various humanitarian efforts, and have made quite a bit of progress in the fight against malaria.  It's a good example of how people around the globe are coming together to help solve problems and give needy people a helping hand and a fighting chance.

Humanity has been making progress, thanks to its own efforts and action.  Prayer makes people feel good.  Intelligently-applied knowledge through action actually does a lot of good.  I think humanity will use the latter to continue to make the world a better place.

I am so glad you feel that way.  That is exactly what God wants us to do.  Get tired of waiting on Him and take care of ourselves!

And I'm sure God is very proud of the Gates for their contribution, and any one that has taken a part in helping children.  More proud of the atheist doing it, because they are doing it simply because it's the right thing to do, not to get a mansion in heaven, how noble.  We all want our lives to mean something.  I still say your all going to Heaven like it or not.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 24, 2013, 10:30:17 AM
Junebug

I have to ask. If we are supposed to fix everything ourselves, why did he part the Red Sea for Moses and the gang? Shouldn't they have found their own way across the waters? Granted, he forgot to tell that group of half a million people where to go once they had escaped the alleged oppression, but that one act of parting the sea seems to indicate a willingness to occasionally step in and say lend a hand.

And what about the times when no amount of human intervention could fix the problem. Tsunamis and earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands, starvation 500 years ago when there as no human infrastructure to fix the problem, diseases like the black plague of the same period, which were far beyond the ken of humans? The death and destruction caused by disease brought by Europeans to the native populations of North and South America? There was nothing humanly available to stop or control those diseases that killed so many when white men first set shores on the western continents. Later we whites used disease on purpose to wipe out native populations, but initially it was something nobody could have controlled. How is a god letting us handle it ourselves when we have no capacity to do so a sign of his everlasting love?

My list goes on and on. I keep getting told that we have free will, but no christian yet has told me why a bad guy's free will is of more importance than the free will of the six year old child he rapes and murders. Nobody has yet explained why a bad leader has the free will to start an unjust war and bomb another country back the stone age while the average citizen in the bombed country has no control whatsoever over the situation.

Your god, as per the bible, used to love us so much that he was willing to turn the occasional disobedient woman into a pillar of salt and tweet a message of hope to Daniel while he was in his cell. He was able to sweet talk lions into foregoing lunch and feed folks a nice meal that one time without resorting to food stamps. Today he is like Chancey in Being There. He just likes to watch. Is he as confused about what love is as he is about everything else? Shouldn't a real god be a bit less ineffective? Couldn't a god who can foresee everything kind of, you know, tweaked our DNA a bit to make us a bit more to his liking? Should have been a cinch.

And on top of all that, he forces you to come up with excuse after excuse for his inaction. How loving is that?

Edit: for clarity

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 24, 2013, 10:42:49 AM
MODERATOR EDIT: Overly long quote trimmed.  Please keep quoted material to a minimum.

Quote
I ask again... If God was not real, would that explain why he doesn't help starving children?  Just think about that, please.  No excuse you can come up with to explain away why God doesn't help starving children is better at explaining why there are starving children than simply admitting that God isn't real.

Well I guess you told me.  Never thought believing in God made me evil.  Interesting concept.  I am not going to be angry with you for insulting me to the core, but instead I will be understanding.

Yes you could look at it that way, but my path has revealed a much different conclusion.  Through my faith I will believe there is a purpose for your revelation as well.  I believe that God wants us to take care of each other, not do it for us. I don't believe it is an easy thing for God to do. 

Why is it okay for you not to believe the norm, but for me not to, I am dumb.  We were both handed the same information and got opposite conclusions.  How did I get to a different conclusion than you?  Probably because the information might be the same but we are on a different path.  I was searching for God and you were searching for the non-existence of God.  We both found what we were looking for.  We were both comforted by what we found is the only common link between our journeys.

I still don't see how believing how God doing nothing is what is best for the whole human race is evil.  So I guess I shouldn't have cut my son off from my support when he got hooked on pills.  The alternative of enabling was a better choice?  If God fixed our problems it would be no different. We would never be on our own to earn and deserve the promise of Heaven.  We would always need God there to fix us when we break ourselves.  See we just see the small, God sees the bigger picture.  Oh it's okay to make lots and lots of money while others starve because God will feed those children.  I know it's hard to understand but it is not evil.  I am even surprised to hear an atheist use the word evil, without God is there good and evil? My thoughts, without a God,it is simply human nature and I would not be good or evil I would just be doing what comes natural and have no responsibility for my thoughts or my actions.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 24, 2013, 12:30:32 PM
Junebug

I have to ask. If we are supposed to fix everything ourselves, why did he part the Red Sea for Moses and the gang? Shouldn't they have found their own way across the waters? Granted, he forgot to tell that group of half a million people where to go once they had escaped the alleged oppression, but that one act of parting the sea seems to indicate a willingness to occasionally step in and say lend a hand.

And what about the times when no amount of human intervention could fix the problem. Tsunamis and earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands, starvation 500 years ago when there as no human infrastructure to fix the problem, diseases like the black plague of the same period, which were far beyond the ken of humans? The death and destruction caused by disease brought by Europeans to the native populations of North and South America? There was nothing humanly available to stop or control those diseases that killed so many when white men first set shores on the western continents. Later we whites used disease on purpose to wipe out native populations, but initially it was something nobody could have controlled. How is a god letting us handle it ourselves when we have no capacity to do so a sign of his everlasting love?

My list goes on and on. I keep getting told that we have free will, but no christian yet has told me why a bad guy's free will is of more importance than the free will of the six year old child he rapes and murders. Nobody has yet explained why a bad leader has the free will to start an unjust war and bomb another country back the stone age while the average citizen in the bombed country has no control whatsoever over the situation.

Your god, as per the bible, used to love us so much that he was willing to turn the occasional disobedient woman into a pillar of salt and tweet a message of hope to Daniel while he was in his cell. He was able to sweet talk lions into foregoing lunch and feed folks a nice meal that one time without resorting to food stamps. Today he is like Chancey in Being There. He just likes to watch. Is he as confused about what love is as he is about everything else? Shouldn't a real god be a bit less ineffective? Couldn't a god who can foresee everything kind of, you know, tweaked our DNA a bit to make us a bit more to his liking? Should have been a cinch.

And on top of all that, he forces you to come up with excuse after excuse for his inaction. How loving is that?

Edit: for clarity

What did the people do after witnessing the parting of the red sea? I believe while in the wilderness they lost faith even after witnessing the power of God.  Time after time in the bible we see when God interferes things are good for a while and then things go right back to crap.  Abraham's people got put right back into being overthrown by Rome, because they forgot to stay close to God.  Not all of them did, but the ones that were given power did.  They cared more about their earthly stature than their relationship to God.  This created hardship on the people.  That is where we are right now.  The people that have been given the power abuse it for their own indulgence and do not care if people suffer because of it.  I say the only way for God to fix us is to leave us be.  We will either destroy one another or save one another it is up to us. Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food.  That he wouldn't bother scorning the rest of us for letting it happen?  Come on now!  The way I see it what you people want is Armageddon.  Denying God's existence is not what needs to be done for those kids.  Don't you see that by not standing together being divided by beliefs gets us nowhere.  Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.  I wish they had it so there would be none left to spend and they would have to close their doors.  The gentleman I referred to earlier, Dr. Richard Wolfe, I don't know what his religion is but he knows his economics.  He has a website and I encourage all those in favor of ending poverty to check him out.  He thinks it's time to consider an alternative to capitalism and He makes some very good points.  Take Care.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on March 24, 2013, 12:49:41 PM
Hi Gawd,

Let me start by saying that I am certainly not evil.  I was not trying to justify starving children, the comment I made was in reference to"some"comfort.  It had absolutely nothing to do with justification.

I dont know you, but I dont think you are evil. From my experiences with people throughout life I think people in general are good. Unfortunately, what I was taught in church was exactly the opposite; people are born evil and can do no better. I think its a very unfortunate teaching and probably is the gateway for people to do more evil, after all if you can do no better without supernatural help why even try?

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I think if it gets to the point that God has to intervene the consequences for the rest of us could very well be mighty grim. Wouldn't it be better for all of us, I mean every single person on this planet, the whole human race if we stood together and demand change in the politics that have lead to poverty. There is a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wolfe, an economist that has some good ideas about how to put an end to poverty, and the only way we will do that is together.

Why? Why would it be grim if this god were to feed starving children? Of course it would be good if everyone on the planet stood together to solve problems, as we both know (your whole post suggests it) thats THE ONLY way things will get done. I'm open to all ideas that end suffering. The problem, theologically, with this is you claim to have a way, in god, but he simply refuses to do anything. So his existence, even to you, is no different from his non-existence.

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The Christians I know say the same thing, God knows everything before it happens.  They also say we are not puppets on a string.  It is like much of the things they say, a contradiction.  One thing I've learned on my "vision quest" is that to know God you must rely on History and Science. You have to distinguish the rhetoric from the truth.  For example, I was watching two men on a Christian broadcast channel a couple of days ago, and they actually said that God promotes capitalism, I do not agree. I would not have known this except that I've done "my own" homework. Most importantly you have to have an open mind and heart. See to me, God understands why atheist are atheist and eternal torture is not on God's mind at all, AT ALL.  Right now it just takes 10 preachers to lead 300 people the wrong way. There are 10's of 1000's of preachers out there! You are better off to be an atheist than a brainwashed sheep of a sheep. God's love is not uneven though. He loves those brainwashed sheep and the misguided sheep that lead them.

Very astute. Yes god knowing everything before it happens would make us meat puppets because there would be no way to change what he knows from before we were even born. They are very much incompatible ideas. However, your particular version of god that doesnt know everything isnt the god of the bible and of christianity then, because that god is all knowing. And I agree, you must rely on history and science because its all we have. History shows us people have a tradition of imagining gods to answer the unknown and science has shown that the questions those gods used to answer no longer need gods to answer them. What questions are you attempting to answer with your version of god?

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God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.  There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?  History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.  Could you handle that decision? Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?  Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion because in the bible, god certainly does want to destroy people who dont crumble to his will, whatever that may be. So if you can direct me to the book that describes the god youre referring to it'd be helpful to understand your positions a little bit more. You see, the god of the bible is all powerful, and you seem to suggest that he is being pushed against his will to destroy people. That would mean he is not all powerful if we people can force him to do something.

Learning from mistakes is human nature, how do you think we got this far? You dont continue to exist if you keep walking into lions dend or if you keep building your hut where elephants like to roam. Why should people who believe in god be careful what they ask for? You have already affirmed that god doesnt interact in the world, and that it would be grim if he did because thats when people die. I find it interesting that to you god will intervene to kill people but not help people live. Its like you know this god concept is evil, but cant free yourself from his chains of slavery.

As a parent to one little girl, and uncle to two littler girls I would NEVER leave them in the hands of people who couldnt take care of them because I love them. Furthermore, if I were omni-max and I knew if I left them with someone who would let them starve I wouldnt leave them with that person, and if I did then I would be the guilty party for sending them to their death. I would be evil.

Yes, man's greed is definitely the problem. No god needed for the problem, and as you have already stated, the only solution is man. So what exactly does your god do/solve/answer?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 24, 2013, 01:25:19 PM
Junebug

The issue isn't if humans should or could do better. We have to or else. But thinking that there is a god watching (and doing zip) adds nothing to the equation. Too many of your believing brethren think that their god will help them through these tough times. So if he is real and just sitting back and watching, then the problems are made worse by all those believers who are spending most of their time praying to him rather than acting. He is not a neutral force, but rather a negative one. And if he isn't real, and a bunch of people are spending their time worshipping him rather than acting, then those people are a negative force.

Certainly humans have to solve these problems. But they have been caused by our naturally evolved and well documented human tendency to create a few power-tripping dicks. And by our misunderstandings and/or refusal to understand nature. And by ignorance of all sorts, including the pretense of religion. Having Arabs and christians at each others throats for over non-existent variations on the god theme isn't helping matters in any way. For that matter, having christians at each others throats, and arabs at each others throats isn't doing any good either.

We apparently evolved to survive, not to be sweet. However we have reached a point in human history where it is theoretically possible for most everyone to thrive despite the moral weaknesses in our genetic code. But we have to approach the problems with real tools, not made up stuff that only complicates the situation. And it is not only religious "truths" that we need to banish, but too similar attitudes towards some economic and social theories that were long ago shown to be ineffective or, worse yet, harmful.

Your heart is in the right place, but your backstory needs a little work. It is perfectly possible to be a good person without having to think that the Jesus story is the greatest sacrifice ever made. He was just going back home. This one here is ours and we need to start cleaning it up for the right reasons, not imaginary ones.

I'll be reading up on what the good Dr. Wolfe has suggested. Since he has been on Bill Moyers show, and well received there, I am more than willing to give him a look see. But no one idea, no one suggestion, is going to fix everything. It will take a combination of efforts in many arenas to solve the issues of our time. And the abandonment of all that is useless; all that has proven to be of no value. And that includes religion.

Here is Dr. Wolfe's Web site if anyone is interested.
http://rdwolff.com (http://rdwolff.com)

P.S. You don't need to be surprised when an atheist uses the term evil. Your devil can be eliminated from the concept without taking away the legitimacy of the concept. We need words for all extremes so that we can describe the current human condition. The men who gave the 15 year old rape victim in The Maldives 100 lashes yesterday are evil. The word is just too handy to remove simply because the concept of the devil has been extirpated from some of our minds.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: shnozzola on March 24, 2013, 02:40:57 PM
  Come on now!  The way I see it what you people want is Armageddon.  Denying God's existence is not what needs to be done for those kids.  Don't you see that by not standing together being divided by beliefs gets us nowhere.  Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.

Hi Junebug,
   As most theists, you are so blinded defending your belief in god, you do not read atheists correctly.  Why would you think an atheist wants Armageddon?  That's what you and the bible predict.  I am pretty sure the only end will be if we destroy ourselves through wars, and if you read post after post at WWGHA you will see that is exactly the religious  perversion of the rules of society we are against.  Why do theists think atheists do not understand love?  Why do theists think atheists do not understand the wisdom in many religions?

 It is only the fact that we, after more careful consideration than you can imagine, have rejected the idea that there is some of being that floats around the universe and has control over something.  Junebug, think hard about your definition of god and what he or she or it must be like to fit into your idea of a god.  That will be your beliefs undoing right there.

   Funny how you may think your are here to help us, while we feel we can help you.  Help you remove the baggage from your life and view all people the same - all people as responsible for the future of humanity, not some sort of puppets that god had absolute control over all along.  How absurd you will look back on the logic of your belief once you become free of it.  Like you are saying to us - Take Care, and good luck in your search for truth.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on March 24, 2013, 05:49:59 PM

What did the people do after witnessing the parting of the red sea? I believe while in the wilderness they lost faith even after witnessing the power of God.  Time after time in the bible we see when God interferes things are good for a while and then things go right back to crap.  Abraham's people got put right back into being overthrown by Rome, because they forgot to stay close to God.  Not all of them did, but the ones that were given power did.  They cared more about their earthly stature than their relationship to God.  This created hardship on the people.  That is where we are right now.  The people that have been given the power abuse it for their own indulgence and do not care if people suffer because of it.  I say the only way for God to fix us is to leave us be. 

So whenever god intervenes in the bible, that was a mistake on his part?  In each and every cases, he should've left well enough alone?


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Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food. 


You make this sound like a bad thing.


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That he wouldn't bother scorning the rest of us for letting it happen? 


Why not do both?  Feed starving children, and yell at the rest of us for allowing them to starve.



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Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.  I wish they had it so there would be none left to spend and they would have to close their doors.  The gentleman I referred to earlier, Dr. Richard Wolfe, I don't know what his religion is but he knows his economics.  He has a website and I encourage all those in favor of ending poverty to check him out.  He thinks it's time to consider an alternative to capitalism and He makes some very good points.  Take Care.

Your point here is that we need to look out for each other.  That's fine, but where does god fit into all this?  He appears not to.  If we're suppose to depend on each other, and not rely on a god that cannot/should not intervene on our behalf, then why worship him at all?  Why pray?  It almost seems like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with this god guy at all.  I think on some level, you're aware that your god behaves the exact same way he would if he were non-existence.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: JeffPT on March 24, 2013, 10:26:36 PM
Well I guess you told me.  Never thought believing in God made me evil.  Interesting concept.  I am not going to be angry with you for insulting me to the core, but instead I will be understanding.

I don't care if it offends you.  Really, I don't.  Perhaps if you're offended by it, you'll take it more seriously.  I don't know.  Different approaches work on different people.  In the end, I'd rather you seriously consider the fact that worshiping a being that has the power to stop immense amounts of suffering and does nothing with it, is inherently bad.  Half the problem with Christians is that they lead with their emotions instead of their brains.  They don't know how to temper their emotions with reason and logic.  They think with their gut and that gets them in trouble. 

Yes you could look at it that way, but my path has revealed a much different conclusion.  Through my faith I will believe there is a purpose for your revelation as well.  I believe that God wants us to take care of each other, not do it for us. I don't believe it is an easy thing for God to do. 

It's fine to believe that, but can you prove it?  If I said I had faith in the ability of the unicorn in my garage to keep my tires from going flat, what would you think of me?  I feel the same way about someone who says 'through my faith I believe there is a purpose for your revelation'.  Your faith is absolutely useless.  Just as you would say mine is with the unicorn in my garage. 

Why is it okay for you not to believe the norm, but for me not to, I am dumb. 
Arguments that invoke the beliefs of the masses are fallacious and should not weigh in on the discussion.  A long time ago, most people believed the world was flat, that demons caused disease, that lightning was divine anger, etc.  The masses are often very, very wrong.  You, personally, are probably not dumb.  But your belief in the Christian God is dumb.  It doesn't matter that you share that problem with lots and lots of people.  You all could really be wrong.  And I'm quite sure you are. 

We were both handed the same information and got opposite conclusions. 
No, I doubt that.  You were handed one side of a very 2 sided argument and the very core of that argument is what you've held to.  I was handed one side (as you) and looked at the other side myself in an honest attempt at learning what the truth was.  How much atheist literature have you read, Junebug?  How much do you know about how the bible came to be?  How much do you know about the authors?  How much do you know about the historians during the time of Jesus?  How many books have you read about the other gospels that didn't make it into the cannon? 

I've read the bible.  I've visited countless religious websites.  I've read 4 different apologetics books and somewhere near 10 books on atheism.  I've been on this website for several years now, listening to people like you present argument after horrible argument and there is only one possible conclusion.  The Christian God isn't real.  Can you say you've honestly given the other side a fair shot?  I doubt you can.   

How did I get to a different conclusion than you? Probably because the information might be the same but we are on a different path.
My path uses reason, yours uses faith.  In every other area of your life, which of those 2, do you think, is more likely to lead to truth?  Now explain to me why it's different with religion.

I was searching for God and you were searching for the non-existence of God. 
Quick little story for you Junebug. 

I work as a physical therapist.  When I evaluate a patient, I start with the diagnosis that the doctor sends me from his office in the form of a prescription.  On it, he or she will usually write something to the effect of "lumbar strain" or "rotator cuff impingement".  Now, as a therapist, I can either keep the doctors diagnosis in mind during my evaluation, or I can push it to the back and find what's really going on with them.  Which, do you think, is a better tactic for me to use if I really want to help the patient?  Looking for what's ACTUALLY there, or just looking to confirm that lumbar strain, or rotator cuff impingement that the doctor told me was there?  The answer is the first one.  You can't bias yourself with someone elses diagnosis when you evaluate a patient, else you seriously run the risk of missing something. 

Now, how does that apply to our discussion?  You said that you looked for God.  That's the wrong way to go about it.  You found God because people told you that God is there, much like the doctor tells me what they think is there with their diagnosis.  In your own searching, you never allowed yourself, nor have you since, put up for discussion the most rudimentary part of your entire faith... the notion that God even exists in the first place.  I looked for truth, and ignored what other people told me was there.  In that, I allowed myself to address that very first question that you never allowed yourself to ask.  That's the difference.

I wasn't searching for the non-existence of God.  I don't even know what the hell that means.  I wanted to know whether God existed or didn't exist, and I listened to both sides intently, then made my conclusion. 

We both found what we were looking for. 
You found God because you were looking for God.  I found the truth because I wasn't looking to confirm what I'd been told.  I was looking for truth. 

We were both comforted by what we found is the only common link between our journeys.

I live in the bible belt.  Do you really think its comfortable to be an atheist here?  If I were looking for comfort, I'd be a sheep like the rest of you.  My comfort lies in knowing I gave an equal ear to both sides before making my decision. 

I still don't see how believing how God doing nothing is what is best for the whole human race is evil.
Because you don't really believe that.  You don't.  How do I know that?  Simple.  If God came down, right now, and fed 30,000 starving children and brought them all back to good health, would you think of that as a good thing or a bad thing?  If you have a shred of decency, you'd think it was a good thing.  You know you'd think it was good.  You KNOW it.  What you are trying to say, however, is that if God did that, HELPING the children would actually be doing something that would NOT be in the interest of the whole human race, and you'd be forced to condemn the action.  You said God doing nothing is what's best for the human race, so that means God helping the human race would be awful.  Do you really, really believe that?  No, you don't.

Truth be told, helping out might not be in the best interest of humanity in every case, but childhood starvation?  Good luck with that one. 

So I guess I shouldn't have cut my son off from my support when he got hooked on pills. 
If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die. 

If God fixed our problems it would be no different.
Bullshit. If God got your son of pills with the snap of his fingers, would you be angry with him for not allowing your son to struggle with it?  What of those who continue to take the pills and DIE from them? That happens all the time!  Is it really better for God to NOT step in and help those people that he knows are going to die? 

It's like you have this mantra running through your mind... God is good, God is good, God is good, anything that contradicts that is false, or just a mystery... STOP doing that.  Use your head.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped your son, it would be a good thing.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped starving children, that would be a good thing.  It is also, ALRIGHT to admit that because he doesn't, he's either not interested in helping, not powerful enough to do it, or better yet, that he's not actually there in the first place.   

We would never be on our own to earn and deserve the promise of Heaven. 
And what of those who die of starvation before they achieve the rightful age at which they can earn such a promise?  What of the babies who die from AIDS every day? 

And can you prove that heaven exists?  No?  Then it's just a claim.  One that needs to be analyzed for truth versus rhetoric.  Heaven might not exist. 

See we just see the small, God sees the bigger picture. 

Baseless assertion.

Answer the question... IF God wasn't real, would that explain why God doesn't help starving children?  PLEASE answer that.

Oh it's okay to make lots and lots of money while others starve because God will feed those children.

I can't help but wonder what goes through your mind when you say stuff like this.  Would you really be all that upset with God if he came down and fed the children?  It sounds like you would be upset by it.  Is that the person you really are? 

I know it's hard to understand but it is not evil.

I'm sorry, but if God was real, and he came down and fed all the starving children, I'd be happy about it.  You'd think it was bad for the world if God did that. Your religion has done that to you.  It sounds pretty evil to me.

And yet, in the same breath, you say you want people to feed the hungry children instead, as if it would be a good thing.  Why is it good if people do it but bad if God does it? Because we learn something? Guess what, Junebug.  We haven't learned anything from it.  Kids are still dying.  They've been dying for centuries. If you are basing the entire process of 'earning the promise of heaven' on humanity's ability to feed the poor, then we're all going to hell.  It seems like people, as a whole, aren't getting what you think they should get.  But in the end, whether God helps or people help, the children aren't starving anymore, right?  Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that the deaths of millions of children every year is the wages we have to pay to... consistently fail at taking care of ourselves? 

In truth, this whole thing is nothing more than you trying to deflect the focus away from God's ineptitude and capriciousness and onto humanity, but you should stop trying to do that and really look at what we're saying.   

I am even surprised to hear an atheist use the word evil, without God is there good and evil?

Good and evil are adjectives used to describe an individual's perceptions of actions, deeds, etc.  Good as a 'thing' does not exist, and neither does 'evil'.  But I can describe actions as good or evil. 

My thoughts, without a God,it is simply human nature and I would not be good or evil I would just be doing what comes natural and have no responsibility for my thoughts or my actions.
It's not the wording I would use, but it's close enough.  I would say the first part of your sentence is correct, but saying you have no responsibility over your thoughts and actions is debatable.  And it gets into the discussion of free will, which... if I were you... I'd stay clear of. 

People are not inherently good or evil.  Their actions can be good or evil as described by other people's perceptions of those actions.  Even the most horrible people in the world did some good things too.  So calling them 'evil' to describe them as a whole is wrong.

Why do you think your disapproval of what you've said changes anything about the truth of it?  I disapprove of the fact that eating ice cream makes me fat, but you don't see me eating it anyway in hopes that I'll get thin.  The truth doesn't care what I think; nor does it care what you think. 

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on March 25, 2013, 06:38:45 AM
Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food. 


Why jump straight to magical food?  Why not just tweak the clouds and make it rain some more to allow sufficient crops to grow?  Why not alter the composition of the soil so that more nutrients are held?  I can think of dozens of little "tweaks" that an omnipotent god could make that would allow the starving to help themselves - you know, like he apparently wants them to.  But all the time he doesn't, thousands suffer and die on a daily basis while god twiddles his thumbs and wishes real hard that we'd help them out just that little bit more.

So I guess I shouldn't have cut my son off from my support when he got hooked on pills.  The alternative of enabling was a better choice?  If God fixed our problems it would be no different.

Out of interest, when your son was hooked on pain pills (and I wonder how THAT happened?  God's will?), did you expect other people, who didn't know him, to help him out?  I'm glad it all worked out for you....but supposeing it hadn't?  Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?  Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

We would never be on our own to earn and deserve the promise of Heaven.

Interesting.  You've said before that you are convinced there is no "negative afterlife" - no hell.  What exactly then - in your opinion - happens to those people who do not "earn Heaven"?  And perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have for your opinion?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 25, 2013, 08:56:51 AM
God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.

What makes you say that?  In what way does yhwh help us learn?

History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.

That is not a ringing endorsement for yhwh.  The guy is supposed to be omnipotent.  Why can he not intervene without killing people.  I mean, shit, they train dogs these days without beating them, the train kids these days without spanking them.  Why is it not possible for a being that can literally do anything to intervene on our behalf without killing people?



That is why faith is rewarded because God knows it's hard to believe in what you can not see, hear, or comprehend.

Why is believing in something without evidence a good thing?  Why should that be rewarded?  Is faith in the Loch Ness Monster good?



The bible is clear on what God wants from us. To LOVE Him and to LOVE each other.

Actually, no, the bible is not all that clear.  I'm guessing you skipped over the OT altogether, otherwise you would not have said that.  In the OT there is no mention of loving yhwh.  It is only about obeying yhwh. 

Eve and her slow witted mate were not thrown out of Eden and given death sentences because they failed to love yhwh.  They were punished because they did not obey.

yhwh's relationship with the hebrews is strictly contractual.  They have a quid pro quo agreement whereby the hebrews chop of part of their penises off and follow certain rules (ostensibly from yhwh) and in exchange yhwh will make them prosper.  yhwh breaks this agreement on at least one occasion (Job) without penalty yet punishes the hebrews severely for certain infractions (idolatry, mainly).  Love does not come into it until very late in the game.  And in that case, it is just silly.

As for loving each other, it depends whom you mean by "each other".  Mainly the hebrews killed "others" and at yhwh's direction no less.  "Love thy neighbor" in practice was translated as "love thy neighbor, as long as he's jewish".  Pretty much all the commandments were translated that way.  "thou shalt not kill...other jews"  "thou shalt not steal another jew's wife...  but the goys' you shall take as sex slaves" etc. 

No.  There is no consistent message of love in the bible.


edit - fixed for clarification
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on March 25, 2013, 11:49:05 AM
Concerning this "god cannot/should not provide for us" idea... how does that work out for heaven?  Supposely, god will be making sure our afterlife is blissful and suffering-free.  Why is it OK for god to intervene in the hereafter, but not the here and now?

Funny how we're not suppose to count on god helping us, but it's ok to imagine a blissful place where he does provides for us...
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 25, 2013, 02:08:19 PM
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated. However, the rest of argument right on! And that brings up another topic I'd like a Christian to justify. How are we to be commanded to love him if he didn't give us the ability to pick and choose what we love. Humans can only love what they love, there is no choice in the matter. Think of something you love or hate and tell yourself, Im gonna stop loving my wife today, or Im gonna stop hating child rapists. You may tell yourself that but if there's a God, he knows what you truly love. Same thing works for your belief system. Try it!! If someone put a gun to your child's head and told you to believe Santa Claus was flying to your house to bring presents this year or he was shooting your kid, you'd tell him you believe, but would you in your heart. And again, if God is real, he knows you're lying. Well that's what God is doing to us with the salvation theory of the Bible. He has the gun, (hell), but has a lie detector(all knowing), then expects us to just say we believe and mean it in our hearts when we can't control what we believe. We all believe what we believe because of certain events and circumstances in our life. Once I realized that fact, I started seeing all of the other contradictions and impossibilities of being a Christian and let it go after 40 years. Sure, it sucked because now I know this life is most likely all I'll ever get, but I also am not plagued with false hopes and millions of questions every day as to why things happen in my life.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 25, 2013, 02:25:43 PM
Also wanna say I feel better not having to justify every Bible contradiction in my head with some other believers rendition of what it really means. Then only to come back to a verse later and see that that doesn't make sense! Talk about Hell! They always taught me the Bible brings you closer to God, not further away. The Bible also says that we're predetermined who's going to believe or not, Paul mentions it in New Testament. So maybe that's why I don't believe anymore, I was created by God so he could one day throw me in hell for eternity for not being created by him to believe in him. Then Paul also said in another verse that once were saved were sealed until the day of redemption. And that Christ bought our price by dying on the cross.Many Christians say this too that once we receive our free gift of salvation, God doesn't take it back. Well I wonder if they ever met someone like me before they wrote that. Because I knew I was a hardcore believer and knew I was going to heaven in my mind because I confessed sins, believed in Jesus as savior, and even changed my life (refrained from sins best I could). Everything you need to do to be a Christian. But now I don't believe and just want to live my life freely, I don't rape, kill, or steal mind you. I still behave morally to most. I mean am I going to go down as the first person in heaven that died as a non-believer. If not then the Bible lies, if so then the Bible lies. See what Im getting at
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on March 25, 2013, 02:32:21 PM
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated.

That's not how commandment goes at all.  It's "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20) or if we go with the Exodus 34 version, it's "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".  Either way, nothing about love, but plenty about obeying.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: naemhni on March 25, 2013, 02:38:47 PM
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated.

That's not how commandment goes at all.  It's "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20) or if we go with the Exodus 34 version, it's "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".  Either way, nothing about love, but plenty about obeying.

Right.  Cutdogg, the commandment you're thinking of is from the New Testament, not the Old.  Matthew 22:37-38.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 25, 2013, 03:50:36 PM
Ok how correct you are it is in New Testament. But read Exodus 20 verse 6 and that says how important it is to love God. Either way though, I still don't see how you could be judged for not loving anything cuz there's no freedom of choice to do so. At least I know I personally can't control what I love or hate. But the Bible doesn't say Im exempt for that
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 25, 2013, 04:18:10 PM
I love sex and weed, but if there was a way I could control myself to hate sex and weed, I would do it
I would wish it or pray it into existence. Why? Because I'm never gonna get enough women to have the amount of sex I desire. And smoking weed is illegal and I may get in trouble. I'd turn it off in a heartbeat. I much would rather love and believe in God any day!! But I tried and prayed for 40 years and that love, and now that belief, isn't there. So I'm a living, breathing, proof for anyone who needs it, that love and beliefs are not something we can control, but are learned through experience and our environment. Therefore, proving that the people who wrote the Bible weren't educated enough in Psychology yet to know any better. And most people today dont even realize you cant control it, so imagine how dumb they were back then. Christians favorite line,"all you have to do is believe in him ....." yeah, but thats the problem, no control over that, like the Bible says ...." easier for a camel to pass through eye of needle" ......than to believe something you dont! Thanks, this ones free
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2013, 07:24:05 AM
Actually Screwtape, OT does mention you should love God, not just obey. It's the First Commandment I believe. Thou shalt love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

That is Mark 12:30.  A Gospel.  Part of the NT. 

But let's take a look.

Exodus 20:3 - you shall have no other gods before me.

Nope, not there. (And note, it implicitly states there are other gods) The closest it gets is here:

Exodus 20:5-6  You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,  but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It mentions love, sorta, but it is also in the context of extortion.  "reject me and I'll fuck up your family for the next four generations."  It is more about obedience than love.  So, I would say my point stands. 

But that is not the only set of commandments.  Let us search further.  There is another batch of them a few chapters later.

Exodus 34:14 - you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 

They just get weirder after that.  But nothing that says the relationship between yhwh and man is one of love.  Though, it does say explicitly to not make treaties or "covenants" with the locals, because they worship other gods, supporting my point about "loving each other".

And there is another batch of commandments in Deut.  They are identical to the ones in Ex20:3.

So no.  It is not a loving relationship in the OT.  As I said before, that whole idea does not come until later in the development of monotheism.


Get it right so your argument can't be falsely debated.

Mmm-hmm.

Think of something you love or hate and tell yourself, Im gonna stop loving my wife today, or Im gonna stop hating child rapists.

I do not entirely agree. I think we can affect our attitudes toward people.  Psychologists have shown that attitudes follow behaviors.  It is a matter of consistency for the brain.  So if you take on loving behaviors - be considerate, patient, do nice things for someone - then your attitude will follow.

If someone put a gun to your child's head and told you to believe Santa Claus was flying to your house

I agree, however, I generally challenge my opponents to try to believe in the tooth faerie for a couple of weeks.  To my knowledge, they have never taken me up on it.

 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 26, 2013, 07:51:03 AM
Exodus 20:5-6  You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,  but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It's worth noting that many Christians point to the god of the Bible as having unconditional love, but here we see the god of the OT: no one's love is unconditional.  God will love you if you love him first, and you are coerced into loving him on a very basic system of punishment vs reward.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 08:02:16 AM
Quote
I dont know you, but I dont think you are evil. From my experiences with people throughout life I think people in general are good. Unfortunately, what I was taught in church was exactly the opposite; people are born evil and can do no better. I think its a very unfortunate teaching and probably is the gateway for people to do more evil, after all if you can do no better without supernatural help why even try?


Why? Why would it be grim if this god were to feed starving children? Of course it would be good if everyone on the planet stood together to solve problems, as we both know (your whole post suggests it) thats THE ONLY way things will get done. I'm open to all ideas that end suffering. The problem, theologically, with this is you claim to have a way, in god, but he simply refuses to do anything. So his existence, even to you, is no different from his non-existence.


Very astute. Yes god knowing everything before it happens would make us meat puppets because there would be no way to change what he knows from before we were even born. They are very much incompatible ideas. However, your particular version of god that doesnt know everything isnt the god of the bible and of christianity then, because that god is all knowing. And I agree, you must rely on history and science because its all we have. History shows us people have a tradition of imagining gods to answer the unknown and science has shown that the questions those gods used to answer no longer need gods to answer them. What questions are you attempting to answer with your version of god?


I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion because in the bible, god certainly does want to destroy people who dont crumble to his will, whatever that may be. So if you can direct me to the book that describes the god youre referring to it'd be helpful to understand your positions a little bit more. You see, the god of the bible is all powerful, and you seem to suggest that he is being pushed against his will to destroy people. That would mean he is not all powerful if we people can force him to do something.

Learning from mistakes is human nature, how do you think we got this far? You dont continue to exist if you keep walking into lions dend or if you keep building your hut where elephants like to roam. Why should people who believe in god be careful what they ask for? You have already affirmed that god doesnt interact in the world, and that it would be grim if he did because thats when people die. I find it interesting that to you god will intervene to kill people but not help people live. Its like you know this god concept is evil, but cant free yourself from his chains of slavery.

As a parent to one little girl, and uncle to two littler girls I would NEVER leave them in the hands of people who couldnt take care of them because I love them. Furthermore, if I were omni-max and I knew if I left them with someone who would let them starve I wouldnt leave them with that person, and if I did then I would be the guilty party for sending them to their death. I would be evil.

Yes, man's greed is definitely the problem. No god needed for the problem, and as you have already stated, the only solution is man. So what exactly does your god do/solve/answer?

Good morning Gawd,

Why would God saving children be grim?  Because I don't think God will just give those children food and ascend back into the clouds,  I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.  See God loves us all.  Even the people that are to blame for poverty, so this must be an agonizing decision God makes everyday.

My beliefs are not solely dependent on the bible.  I have studied Wicca, Buddhism, paganism, and Christianity.  I do not believe that the bible is the undisputed word of God.  I don't have to. I still receive my blessings and He still loves me! When you read it as such it makes a lot more sense.

I believe in God because I can not wrap my mind around the evolution theory.  How all this could come to existence without any form of intelligence is uncomprehending to me. I don't have to, just like you don't have to.  Once I had that, the rest just followed.  I could not be a Christian because I am a Lesbian, so I was forced to find my own way to God, which I'm so glad I did or else I would be in the same boat with the rest of the brainwashed sheep following false doctrine.

As far as me stating God doesn't help, I believe He does what He can without doing it for us.  God works through us, so if we don't work, God don't work and God is certainly working through a lot of people, including the Gates.  Where do you think our conscience comes from.  It is the spirit of God and the temptations of greed and violence.  What makes a person chose the good instead of the bad? Because the spirit of the person knows if they chose the bad their spirit will suffer more than their flesh.  Our spirit leaves our bodies and goes somewhere.  I believe that somewhere is with God, rewarded for being good, and punished appropriately for being bad.  This is where the mix comes in.  See I won't worship a God or anything else that claims to torture good people the same as murderers and child molesters.  So why not believe that God uses reincarnation as a type of punishment.  This life to me at times seems like a punishment.  Imagine coming back as a fly.  An appropriate punishment.  First and foremost all conclusions I have made is defining God as Love and as a Father.

I just had a thought.  Ever watched the show Charmed with the three witches.  They have power, but must be very careful not to use it in the wrong way. Matter of fact thinking about it I am an avid superhero fanatic, and all those movies have the same concept, with great power comes great responsibility.  There is obviously something to the concept, why else would it be in our movies?  This is the task of God.  To use His power over us in a way that does not enable us to keep on hurting each other.  God could come save us today, but tomorrow we will have learned nothing! Probably even get worse because we will know we can screw up all we want, and that's alright because God will save us.  God is not a super human, He is our Creator, our Father, and although he has not given us a road map, He has given us freedom to chose and a conscience to guide us in the right direction.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 08:13:25 AM
Quote
The issue isn't if humans should or could do better. We have to or else. But thinking that there is a god watching (and doing zip) adds nothing to the equation. Too many of your believing brethren think that their god will help them through these tough times. So if he is real and just sitting back and watching, then the problems are made worse by all those believers who are spending most of their time praying to him rather than acting. He is not a neutral force, but rather a negative one. And if he isn't real, and a bunch of people are spending their time worshipping him rather than acting, then those people are a negative force.

Certainly humans have to solve these problems. But they have been caused by our naturally evolved and well documented human tendency to create a few power-tripping dicks. And by our misunderstandings and/or refusal to understand nature. And by ignorance of all sorts, including the pretense of religion. Having Arabs and christians at each others throats for over non-existent variations on the god theme isn't helping matters in any way. For that matter, having christians at each others throats, and arabs at each others throats isn't doing any good either.

We apparently evolved to survive, not to be sweet. However we have reached a point in human history where it is theoretically possible for most everyone to thrive despite the moral weaknesses in our genetic code. But we have to approach the problems with real tools, not made up stuff that only complicates the situation. And it is not only religious "truths" that we need to banish, but too similar attitudes towards some economic and social theories that were long ago shown to be ineffective or, worse yet, harmful.

Your heart is in the right place, but your backstory needs a little work. It is perfectly possible to be a good person without having to think that the Jesus story is the greatest sacrifice ever made. He was just going back home. This one here is ours and we need to start cleaning it up for the right reasons, not imaginary ones.

I'll be reading up on what the good Dr. Wolfe has suggested. Since he has been on Bill Moyers show, and well received there, I am more than willing to give him a look see. But no one idea, no one suggestion, is going to fix everything. It will take a combination of efforts in many arenas to solve the issues of our time. And the abandonment of all that is useless; all that has proven to be of no value. And that includes religion.

Here is Dr. Wolfe's Web site if anyone is interested.
http://rdwolff.com (http://rdwolff.com)

P.S. You don't need to be surprised when an atheist uses the term evil. Your devil can be eliminated from the concept without taking away the legitimacy of the concept. We need words for all extremes so that we can describe the current human condition. The men who gave the 15 year old rape victim in The Maldives 100 lashes yesterday are evil. The word is just too handy to remove simply because the concept of the devil has been extirpated from some of our minds.

I agree with most of what you said here, the only thing I would like to point out is there are a lot of Christians, Atheist, etc., out there doing more than just praying, they are feeding the hungry.  Nevertheless I am so glad we agree that a more permanent solution is doable and neccesary. 

I don't care if Atheist want to use the word evil, but one of them called me evil, and that was uncalled for.  Thanks for making me feel better :).
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: naemhni on March 26, 2013, 08:16:43 AM
Why would God saving children be grim?  Because I don't think God will just give those children food and ascend back into the clouds,  I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.

Do you have any idea how crazy that sounds?  "Grim consequences" for helping people who are starving?  And if it's wrong for Yahweh to do it, why would it be right for us to do it?  Especially if you claim that Yahweh is the source of all morality.

Quote
I just had a thought.  Ever watched the show Charmed with the three witches.  They have power, but must be very careful not to use it in the wrong way.

That's a really silly comparison, and I'm not just talking about the fact that you're comparing the alleged creator of the universe to an off-beat television series.  Among other things:

1)  Many of the restrictions on the use of their powers are restrictions that the Good and Evil sides both agreed on (e.g., not using their powers in front of mortals, so as to keep the existence of magic a secret).  Yahweh and Satan have no such understanding.

2)  One of the restrictions that the Charmed Ones have to adhere to is that they may not use their powers for personal gain.  However, Yahweh, being omniscient and omnipotent, cannot have any want or need for anything at all, and thus he can't use his power for personal gain.

3)  If the Charmed Ones use their powers in the "wrong way", they face consequences for it.  Yahweh, conversely, cannot face any penalties for anything he does because you cannot harm an omnipotent being.

4)  One of the reasons that the Charmed Ones are not permitted to use their powers at their own whim is that it is likely to cause grave damage to the world around us.  Yahweh, being omnipotent, would have no such concerns.

This is just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head.  If I had the inclination and the time, I'm sure I could come up with quite a few other things as well.  (For example, when Piper is having sex with Leo, she often uses her freeze power to freeze him at certain, erm, "moments" during the sex act, just for her own amusement.  Not sure how Christians would feel about Jesus doing anything analogous...)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 08:20:44 AM
Screwtape, you're still missing the point. Attitudes and behaviors, or actions, are not the same as true love. True love is something that is a feeling, not an act. Actions and behaviors can be faked or real depending on whether love is really true in your mind and heart. That's why your point of loving God in OT is not real love because the consequences are death if you don't. So yeah I would say that point you made is true. Although, the NT law of "Love God with all your heart and mind is still the same thing as OT because if you don't there's still consequences. Just worded differently. But either way, that doesn't change fact you can't control what you truly love or believe. Psychologists are saying that your behavior and attitudes can change based on belief or love, but I don't believe love and beliefs can be changed by simply behavior, actions, or attitudes. If so, then that would have worked on me since I was a Christian for 40 years. I may have walked the walk, and even truly believed for many years, but that was due to brainwashing, not my positive actions. It doesn't matter if its God or Santa either, you can be brainwashed to believe anything. But no matter how hard a person tries, real love and beliefs come from experiences and knowledge you pick up on way of life, not from being forced or trying real hard. Behaviors and actions you can control however!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on March 26, 2013, 08:34:38 AM
I agree with most of what you said here, the only thing I would like to point out is there are a lot of Christians, Atheist, etc., out there doing more than just praying, they are feeding the hungry.  Nevertheless I am so glad we agree that a more permanent solution is doable and neccesary. 

I don't care if Atheist want to use the word evil, but one of them called me evil, and that was uncalled for. 

Is it?  Perhaps, perhaps not - but can you explain why?

Specifically: if you have the means and the desire to feed the starving, and you choose NOT to do so, is that a good act or an evil act? 

As your means and ability to help increase, does the "level" of goodness/evil for action/inaction increase or decrease?

You note that there are "dark, grim consequences" for feeding the starving.  Can you explain exactly what those consequences are?  Do you advocate that we all STOP trying to feed the satrving for fear of those consequences?  If not, why not?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 08:57:04 AM
Quote
Hi Junebug,
   As most theists, you are so blinded defending your belief in god, you do not read atheists correctly.  Why would you think an atheist wants Armageddon?  That's what you and the bible predict.  I am pretty sure the only end will be if we destroy ourselves through wars, and if you read post after post at WWGHA you will see that is exactly the religious  perversion of the rules of society we are against.  Why do theists think atheists do not understand love?  Why do theists think atheists do not understand the wisdom in many religions?

 It is only the fact that we, after more careful consideration than you can imagine, have rejected the idea that there is some of being that floats around the universe and has control over something.  Junebug, think hard about your definition of god and what he or she or it must be like to fit into your idea of a god.  That will be your beliefs undoing right there.

   Funny how you may think your are here to help us, while we feel we can help you.  Help you remove the baggage from your life and view all people the same - all people as responsible for the future of humanity, not some sort of puppets that god had absolute control over all along.  How absurd you will look back on the logic of your belief once you become free of it.  Like you are saying to us - Take Care, and good luck in your search for truth.

I am very strong in my beliefs.  I certainly don't consider it baggage. I already view people the same I am the least prejudice person I know.  I do not judge you or any one here for being atheist, I quite understand, I was from 1990-2001, but then something happened, I was forced to move in with my father, a Christian, and my Dad was so worried about my soul I decided to look further into God.  God was the one that spoke to my heart and told me He loves me and how upset He was that His followers made me feel that way. It has been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.  I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

I used the word Armageddon to describe what you are asking for.  The people I have talked to here use starving children to disbelieve in God.  If there were a God He would feed the children? Right?  My point there is by challenging God in this way it is dangerous for us all. I do not see God just making some food but rather being quite angry that we have all stood by intolerant to greed and quite literally bringing on some type of Armageddon.  I know atheist hate the idea of Armageddon that is why I used it.  See to me as long as the world goes round God still has Faith in us,  when God loses His faith in us we will be in a very sad state.  Suppose God knows, that maybe by this time in 2015 we will have turned things around, but if He comes to help He knows the consequence, and is trying to save us all. 

Thanks for your comments.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2013, 09:05:13 AM
I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.  See God loves us all.

Do you not see the inherent contradiction? 

Think of someone you love.  Think about if they did somthing bad.  Do you think you could help correct or teach him without the consequences being dark or grim?  If so, why do you think an omnipotent being could not?

I do not believe that the bible is the undisputed word of God.  I don't have to. I still receive my blessings and He still loves me!

That is pure SPAG

I believe in God because I can not wrap my mind around the evolution theory. 

"I don't understand science so I will be superstitious instead"?  That is not a winning approach.  If everyone were to have kept to that philosophy, we would still be drilling holes in people's heads to let the evil spirits out when they were sick. 

God works through us,

In otherwords, you do not expect god to actually do anything.  You expect the universe to behave in exactly the same way as if there were not gods.  Otherwise, omnipotent beings would not have to work "through" people.

Where do you think our conscience comes from.

evolution and empathy

It is the spirit of God and the temptations of greed and violence.

So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?

What makes a person chose the good instead f the bad?

evolution, empathy and mirror neurons.

Because the spirit of the person knows if they chose the bad their spirit will suffer more than their flesh.

So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?

The rest is just a bunch more unfounded claims that make you feel better. 

 


God was the one that spoke to my heart and told me He loves me and how upset He was that His followers made me feel that way.

eh, no.  That was you.  It was your own moral compass pointing the way.  That is a good thing.  It tells me you are much more moral and kind than xians.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2013, 09:30:10 AM
Screwtape, you're still missing the point. Attitudes and behaviors, or actions, are not the same as true love.

I'm not missing the point.  I agree they are not the same.  But I disagree that you have no control over them.

True love is something that is a feeling, not an act.

That is debatable.

Actions and behaviors can be faked or real depending on whether love is really true in your mind and heart.

You have not understood me, I think.  I am saying that if you behave a certain way, your emotions will follow consistently.
http://www.safetyperformance.com/whichfirst-attitudeorbehavior.pdf
http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/52/Attitude-Behavior.html
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/10/05/the-benjamin-franklin-effect/
(^^Long, but totally worth it.  You will be smarter after reading it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect


That's why your point of loving God in OT is not real love because the consequences are death if you don't.

Please don't tell me what my point was.  Especially when you seem to have missed it.

Although, the NT law of "Love God with all your heart and mind is still the same thing as OT because if you don't there's still consequences. Just worded differently.

Worded completely differently.  And in the OT version the love part was an after thought that came after threat of punishment.

But either way, that doesn't change fact you can't control what you truly love or believe.

Love and belief are two categorically different ideas.  I agree you cannot control what you believe.  But I think you do have some control over your emotions.

Psychologists are saying that your behavior and attitudes can change based on belief or love, but I don't believe love and beliefs can be changed by simply behavior, actions, or attitudes.

You seem to be completely confused. You are throwing love and belief together.  They are not the same.  And what you believe is in conflict with the data.

If so, then that would have worked on me since I was a Christian for 40 years.

Apparently it worked for 40 years.

but that was due to brainwashing, not my positive actions.

You mean positive actions like going to church or praying?  And what exactly is "brainwashing"?  Is it exploiting mental processes?  Is it manipulating people, coercing them with psychological tools?  How is it different from persuasion?  Is speaking to a waitress respectfully and saying "please" a form of brainwashing?  Because I sure think it is coersion.

But no matter how hard a person tries, real love and beliefs come from experiences and knowledge you pick up on way of life, not from being forced or trying real hard.

I completely agree.  And if you behave in a certain way, that is "experience", which leads to feeling.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 09:41:49 AM
No screw it didn't work for 40 years. That's my point. I tried to love God more than my family but never obtained that, so my point is you can't control what you love and the amount of love you have for something. Not debatable because I've tried it, maybe you need to so you can see what Im talking about. Just like once a man or woman falls out of love with a person, no matter how hard they try to stay with that person, if they don't love them, they don't love them. Now that can change, true, but not from a decision to love. And I know love and belief are different things, but Im listing them together because they are same in the fact you have no choice whether you love or believe something. It's learned from experience and other aspects. Now of course if let's say for example, a woman decides in her mind she wants to stay with someone and fall back in love with them, she could choose to stay and not leave, she could be really nice and act loving towards them, she could have sex with him on a regular basis, and many other nice and loving behaviors you're talkin about. But none of that will make her love him more or less. Because that's a feeling she can't control. Most likely for her to really love him, he would have to change things about him that she would be attracted to. But that has nothing to do with controlling your love for God because he would have to change in order for that scenario to occur. For example, he could physically show himself to me and touch me with a love potion. That would have probably worked and I would love him with all my heart and mind. But since he probably will never do that. I'm most likely never going to love him like its commanded in Bible, because again, is not a choice you make, it's a feeling based on experience. Not actions I take
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Dante on March 26, 2013, 09:54:50 AM

I am very strong in my beliefs.  I certainly don't consider it baggage. I already view people the same I am the least prejudice person I know.  I do not judge you or any one here for being atheist, I quite understand, I was from 1990-2001, but then something happened, I was forced to move in with my father, a Christian, and my Dad was so worried about my soul I decided to look further into God.

Were you worried about your soul? Why, or why not?

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God was the one that spoke to my heart and told me He loves me and how upset He was that His followers made me feel that way.

How did he speak to you? Big booming god voice? Nope, I bet you heard it in your head, no? See, many theists claim this, but the voices are always inside their head. But, there are many thoughts in many people's heads. And, we find it odd that we atheists never hear those voices claiming to be a god, telling us we're so loved by his omnimax. I wonder why that is.

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been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.

Like what? What has been revealed?

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I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

If you're doing things your own way, what credit is your god? You will get support, such that it is, here for doing things your own way. And that's all you've ever done is do things your own way. There are no gods necessary.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2013, 10:29:35 AM
No screw it didn't work for 40 years.

The actions you took - along with other social factors, I am sure - kept you in religion for 40 years.  So on some level it was very effective.  What was your overall opinion of church and god during that time?  Was it ambivalent?  Was it one that was generally favorable?

I tried to love God more than my family but never obtained that,

That's changing the goal posts.  It went from "love" to "love more than your family".  Let's not do that, please.

so my point is you can't control what you love and the amount of love you have for something.

Those are two different ideas and the latter is one only just now introduced.  Let's just keep this discussion focused on the former.

Not debatable

It is debatable.  I think you've not read what I have linked.  Please do that.  It may give you some now data.  I think you are looking at your own experience - one case - and missing the broader idea here.

Just like once a man or woman falls out of love with a person, no matter how hard they try to stay with that person, if they don't love them, they don't love them.

I don't believe that either.  It is one of those things people take for granted, but then, the idea of a flat earth was also conventional wisdom once. 

I know relationships are more difficult to sort out than astronomy and simply following the advice of "be nice to each other" does not cut the mustard in all cases.  But the basic premise that attitudes follow actions is a well documented phenomenon.  It is fact. 

And I know love and belief are different things, but Im listing them together because they are same in the fact you have no choice whether you love or believe something.

It's not a fact.  Facts are reality.  Show me where reality agrees with you.  Give me a link, or a source, something that corroborates your earnest opinion.  Otherwise, we are just a couple of idiots shouting at each other over the intertubes.

But none of that will make her love him more or less.

Typically when two reasonable and rational people have a disagreement, they check reality to see who, if anyone, is correct.[1]  I've supplied sources that contradict this belief of yours.  That is, I have checked reality.  You have simply repeated your arguments.  I understand your position.  But argumentation, no matter how good or reasonable sounding, is subordinate to reality. 

So unless you wish to introduce new data - which I would happily and openly review - I consider your position to be unfounded.


 1. this is why religion is neither reasonable nor rational.  They cannot check to see who is right
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 10:32:07 AM
Ok Screw, I'll say this because you're not the only person that believes love and belief are 2 things that can be controlled by our desire to do so. Maybe I am wrong in that nobody can control them. But I know I can't control them because I have tried and no matter what I tell myself,( example: mouth:"I do love Hitler, I do love Hitler"; mind:" I hate Hitler, I hate Hitler"), I still can't control it. Maybe you can, so I shouldn't say it's debatable. I just think its not possible. I think everything we love is loved because of emotions we can't control because we've been hard wired with those. And everything we believe in are beliefs because of what we've witnessed or seen in life. Again making it impossible to control. But either way, that's one of the problems I have with Bibles philosophy. What if youre like me and you can't control it. If God made me like that, you would think he wouldn't hold me accountable then. Just like it wouldn't be right to throw someone in Hell because of their skin color or because they're blind. If he made them that way it wouldn't be justice.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 10:39:00 AM
Screw, my opinion was good about God, but deep down I always wondered, so that's not real belief. Again I tried very hard, but couldn't convince mind like most Christians do but are in denial. Secondly, the Bible does say love God first, then family, so that's why I pointed that out. And thirdly, you're still confusing Love and beliefs,( which I admitted already are 2 different things, but they both are uncontrollable), with behaviors and actions. The 2 latter can be faked!!!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 10:45:56 AM
And another thing... My proof is my admittance that there has never been anything in my life that I have controlled or willed myself to truly believe or Love. If you can give me proof of something you can think of where you have willed yourself to believe in, or willed yourself to love, than I will believe you. Please list something to prove me wrong, because I can't think of one thing
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 11:00:52 AM
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So whenever god intervenes in the bible, that was a mistake on his part?  In each and every cases, he should've left well enough alone?


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Do you really think God's way of saving starving children would be just to make them some food. 


You make this sound like a bad thing.


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That he wouldn't bother scorning the rest of us for letting it happen? 


Why not do both?  Feed starving children, and yell at the rest of us for allowing them to starve.



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Tolerance of greed is the responsibility of us all. If Every person out there that makes less than 2 million dollars a year could simply stand together against the billion dollar corps. that want all the money.  I wish they had it so there would be none left to spend and they would have to close their doors.  The gentleman I referred to earlier, Dr. Richard Wolfe, I don't know what his religion is but he knows his economics.  He has a website and I encourage all those in favor of ending poverty to check him out.  He thinks it's time to consider an alternative to capitalism and He makes some very good points.  Take Care.

Your point here is that we need to look out for each other.  That's fine, but where does god fit into all this?  He appears not to.  If we're suppose to depend on each other, and not rely on a god that cannot/should not intervene on our behalf, then why worship him at all?  Why pray?  It almost seems like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with this god guy at all.  I think on some level, you're aware that your god behaves the exact same way he would if he were non-existence.


 
Do you really think God would merely yell at us for allowing poverty.  Come on now. That would be like sentecing a serial killer to timeout.  Surely even in your disbelief you would certainly think that such a neglect would justify a stiffer penalty than a good yelling!  Gods part is in the spirit to give us strength and wisdom to fight the battles that need fighting.  See God works from the inside out not the outside in.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 11:03:44 AM
A few examples why I can't control what I love and believe are: 1)I love my wife and kids: now true I didn't love my wife as soon as I met her, things happened soon after that bringing on feelings of love that I didn't try or control on purpose. No matter how hard I fight against that love and deny it by mouth, my mind and heart tell me I love her. (Uncontrollable). As for my kids I loved them as soon as they were born. I couldn't stop loving them know matter how hard I try. Again, ( uncontrollable)
2) I believe the sky is a shade of blue: I have seen with my own eyes the color, and when I was little I learned what that color was called. No matter how many times someone tells me the color is really red, in my mind its blue until Webster changes the meaning of blue with red, again( uncontrollable)
I could list a million of these examples, can you list one where that's not true?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2013, 11:22:28 AM
Ok Screw, I'll say this because you're not the only person that believes love and belief are 2 things that can be controlled by our desire to do so.

That is not what I said.  I really, really get the impression you do not understand what I have said.  You are saying things to counter an argument I have not made.  You seem to be painting a caracture of my position.  It is as if you have only glanced at my posts. 

I do not think either belief or love are controlled and especially not by one's desire to do so.  I do not think you can will yourself to believe things.  I've said this already and agreed with you when you said it.  I do not think you can simply will yourself to have feelings.  I have no idea where you got this from.

I believe you can have an effect on your feelings.  The branch of study known as "psychology" agrees.

Did you read any of my links?  This is not a rhetorical question.  It is one I would like you to answer. 

The only way you can I can move forward in this discussion is if we both understand each other.  And based on what you have written, you missed about 95% of what I have tried to say.  As a result, 100% of your rebuttals have been aimed at targets that do not exist.  Example:

you're still confusing Love and beliefs...with behaviors and actions. The 2 latter can be faked!!!

I've not confused anything.  It is not my position that love and beliefs are the same as behaviors.  I think I have said that pretty clearly.  You have misunderstood.  Rather than restating your opinions, on which I think I have a pretty firm grasp by now, maybe you should back up and read my posts again, carefully, and actually think about what I wrote.  We agree on a lot more than you seem to think.


If you can give me proof of something you can think of where you have willed yourself to believe in, or willed yourself to love, than I will believe you.

Kindly quote one of my posts where I have made this argument. 

Hint: You won't find it because I've never said it.  It would help us to have a discussion if you did not completely misrepresent my position. 

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on March 26, 2013, 11:27:48 AM
Why would God saving children be grim?  Because I don't think God will just give those children food and ascend back into the clouds,  I believe there would be consequences to the rest of us for letting it happen.  Dark, grim consequences.

God doing stuff = A Bad Thing?  That's some bizzaro logic you have there.

I guess then, bible times were grimdark for no other reasons than god was doing stuff.  Bible times were not nasty because of slavery, mass-murder, false worship, mass poverty, or any other conventional reasons.  No, it was because *dramatic drum beat* god was doing stuff!


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See God loves us all. 


In the context of god doing stuff = bad, one would think the best thing to do is to distance yourself from god.


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Even the people that are to blame for poverty, so this must be an agonizing decision God makes everyday.

Do you believe god is an omni-max being or not?  If so, how can anything god say or do be "agonizing"?  To agonize over something implies uncertainty, confusion.  An omnimax being would not suffer from those things.


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I believe in God because I can not wrap my mind around the evolution theory.  How all this could come to existence without any form of intelligence is uncomprehending to me.

"I don't understand science, therefore, I'll go with magic"


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...so I was forced to find my own way to God, which I'm so glad I did or else I would be in the same boat with the rest of the brainwashed sheep following false doctrine.

*insert shiny mirror here*



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Where do you think our conscience comes from.  It is the spirit of God and the temptations of greed and violence.  What makes a person chose the good instead of the bad? Because the spirit of the person knows if they chose the bad their spirit will suffer more than their flesh.

Silly me.  All this time, I had this idea that some people are nice and care about others.  Seriously; there's no need to invoke magic here.


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See I won't worship a God or anything else that claims to torture good people the same as murderers and child molesters.


Your god DOES torture good people.  Read the book of Job for more details.  There, god made a deal with the devil to torture Job --a good man-- for no reasons other than the fun of it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 11:31:32 AM
Another example of how controlling love is impossible: let's say you decide you're going to love playing golf. And let's say right now you're neutral or you hate it, but you want to will yourself to love it. So you go buy some golf clubs and the necessities to play the game, call up a tee time, and commence to playing golf every day after work so you can start loving it. For some people this could actually work because they find it to be fun, relaxing, good exercise, what have ya. For some others they just don't understand what the thrill is in hitting and chasing a little ball around for 3 hrs and they hate it. They can't wait til this experiment is over so they can go back to their regular life's. In either case the participant in this experiment would have to have underlying qualities in them that possess the love for either sports, or enjoyment of exercise and the outdoors, or maybe some quality time with a friend. Many different scenarios would be the cause of why they love it or hate it. But one thing they couldn't do is force, or will, or control, their love or hate for the sport. They either do or they don't. Again I've still not had one person give me an example of something they willed into love, or a belief for that matter. So please feel free to try. I'm waiting earnestly!!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 11:41:15 AM
Okay Scar sorry I just read your last post. Seems you were saying earlier that love and beliefs can be controlled, then said love only ( or emotions) can be controlled. Now you're completely agreeing that love and beliefs can't be controlled. I definitely should get my eyes checked cuz that's what posts say. But anyway Im sorry for misquoting you. And yeah Psychology may say that emotions can be controlled, but I would only agree with that if they meant outward emotions that people see, not inward that people are truly feeling. But there may be something there that Im not thinking about you could mention. I just know love and belief uncontrollable
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 11:46:15 AM
Screwtape, you're still missing the point. Attitudes and behaviors, or actions, are not the same as true love.

I'm not missing the point.  I agree they are not the same.  But I disagree that you have no control over them.

True love is something that is a feeling, not an act.

That is debatable.

Actions and behaviors can be faked or real depending on whether love is really true in your mind and heart.

You have not understood me, I think.  I am saying that if you behave a certain way, your emotions will follow consistently.
http://www.safetyperformance.com/whichfirst-attitudeorbehavior.pdf
http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/52/Attitude-Behavior.html
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/10/05/the-benjamin-franklin-effect/
(^^Long, but totally worth it.  You will be smarter after reading it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect


That's why your point of loving God in OT is not real love because the consequences are death if you don't.

Please don't tell me what my point was.  Especially when you seem to have missed it.

Although, the NT law of "Love God with all your heart and mind is still the same thing as OT because if you don't there's still consequences. Just worded differently.

Worded completely differently.  And in the OT version the love part was an after thought that came after threat of punishment.

But either way, that doesn't change fact you can't control what you truly love or believe.

Love and belief are two categorically different ideas.  I agree you cannot control what you believe.  But I think you do have some control over your emotions.

Psychologists are saying that your behavior and attitudes can change based on belief or love, but I don't believe love and beliefs can be changed by simply behavior, actions, or attitudes.

You seem to be completely confused. You are throwing love and belief together.  They are not the same.  And what you believe is in conflict with the data.

If so, then that would have worked on me since I was a Christian for 40 years.

Apparently it worked for 40 years.

but that was due to brainwashing, not my positive actions.

You mean positive actions like going to church or praying?  And what exactly is "brainwashing"?  Is it exploiting mental processes?  Is it manipulating people, coercing them with psychological tools?  How is it different from persuasion?  Is speaking to a waitress respectfully and saying "please" a form of brainwashing?  Because I sure think it is coersion.

But no matter how hard a person tries, real love and beliefs come from experiences and knowledge you pick up on way of life, not from being forced or trying real hard.

I completely agree.  And if you behave in a certain way, that is "experience", which leads to feeling.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 11:51:02 AM
Where you misled me is in the last quote above. You said you agree beliefs are uncontrollable but feelings, or emotions, can be controlled by your actions. But I say that maybe there is some, I just know real love is not one of these feelings. Because even though real love will produce behaviors that are showing love, behaviors can't force real love.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 26, 2013, 12:01:50 PM
Another example of how controlling love is impossible: let's say you decide you're going to love playing golf. And let's say right now you're neutral or you hate it, but you want to will yourself to love it.

Cutdogg, your definition of love needs some work. Love sucks as a goal. It works best when it is a byproduct. That is, when it comes to you via a series of actions/events/happenings/feelings/affections. If your parents fed you and clothed you and housed you through thick and thin, and you came to realize that they cared about, at some point you hopefully started loving your parents in return. If you have friends who have stuck with you through thick and thin and whose company you enjoy and look forward to and their reliability is close to being above reproach, you might decide you love them in some sense, even though that was not necessarily your original intent. If you meet a person and the two of you are mutually attracted and neither of you get selfish and both of you honestly care about the other, love may well blossom. Too, it may not because other factors inhibit said romance. For instance, two people meet, fall for each other hard, and then one discovers that the other has opposite religious views that they consider intolerable. That could put the kibosh on the whole thing. Or not. It would depend on a lot of factors.

But the golf thing is silly. That isn't what love is for. And that is not how love works. At least not the kind that I have experienced. Again, love works best when it is the byproduct of numerous human kindnesses, of caring, of honesty, of realistic expectations (okay, okay, you can toss puppies and kittens into the mix too, if you must). I've no idea how golf would fit into that.

I have been known to say that I love to rock climb. Or at least I did until i got old. But that "love" was not the same thing as my feelings for my parents or siblings or ex's or kids. It was an expression of pleasure and joy, but it was not something returned by the rocks I scaled or the rocks I fell off of. It was a feeling solely within me, and that doesn't count.

Love of a god that doesn't exist is exactly the same. And the reason your attempt to love him failed is probably the simple fact that non-existent entities can't do diddly in return, no matter how good you feel about them. Unless you have a great imagination, in which case you can make up how wonderful he is and how much he loves you, etc. You can make his feelings for you match exactly what you would hope they would be. Because it is one sided whether you know it or not, a self-defined loving gods tends to be pretty acceptable to those believers who have made up all the parameters. But it isn't real, live human love, because, like with other varieties of masturbation, something is missing.

Your love of sex and drugs is complicated a bit by the propensity for human bodies to get hooked on various pain and pleasure sources. Again, not the same thing as feelings for your child or your spouse or your brothers. Equating the two belittles what love really is, and falsely elevates any habit to a useless level, feeling-wise.

You were wise enough to finally realize that your one-sided love affair with god (or your attempts, anyway) were useless because they were, as I said, one-sided. That works neither in religion or in human relationships. Granted, there are plenty of people in relationships where only one person loves the other, if that many, but the people involved still try going through the motions.

That is their problem. Unless one is making the other their slave or something. But that just goes to show that we humans can pervert anything, even the best stuff that we've got.

It takes two to tango. It takes at least two to love. Golf doesn't count. Nor, of course, do gods.




Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 12:21:01 PM
Yeah I can buy that. Good point. However, some people, not you of course, do truly love certain inanimate objects, including God. And they do it whether the object or being loves them back. It even works with people too. A lot of people love another person deeper than you and I love someone who really loves them. So that part of your view on what love really is isn't accurate. But still, I agree to disagree on what love is, but I still would like to hear of an example where someone controlled either there love for something, or belief in something. That's what my argument is, and only is.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on March 26, 2013, 12:43:53 PM
Do you really think God would merely yell at us for allowing poverty.  Come on now. 

Considering that god's plan involves doing NOTHING, I would, quite frankly, settle for him "merely" yelling at someone.  Thus far, your god has set my expectations so low, that yelling does seem like a huge step forward.


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That would be like sentecing a serial killer to timeout.

Imagine that prior to this, the judge has done nothing, avoided pronouncing a sentence, avoided showing up at court, his representatives kept making claims that pronouncing a sentence would make things worse.  After all that, sentecing a timeout would seem like some progress was finally being made.

By the way, if a judge really did act like this, he'd be charged for gross incompetence.  Yet, you give your god a free pass.  What gives?


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Surely even in your disbelief you would certainly think that such a neglect would justify a stiffer penalty than a good yelling! 


My "disbelief" in god is the same as your "disbelief" in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.


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Gods part is in the spirit to give us strength and wisdom to fight the battles that need fighting.  See God works from the inside out not the outside in.

You're fully well aware that your god does nothing, and will never, ever do anything.  This is why you're making up magical woo to try to justify your god's inaction.  There was none of this "working from the inside out" thing in the bible.  Funny how god's actions changes whenever we become better at recording and examining things...
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2013, 01:11:51 PM
but I would only agree with that if they meant outward emotions that people see, not inward that people are truly feeling.

You are making a weird distinction between "outward" emotions and "true" emotions.   I do not think there is any such distinction.


Where you misled me is in the last quote above. You said you agree beliefs are uncontrollable but feelings, or emotions, can be controlled by your actions. But I say that maybe there is some, I just know real love is not one of these feelings. Because even though real love will produce behaviors that are showing love, behaviors can't force real love.

Please stop using words I did not use.  And stop conflating your unfounded opinions with knowledge.

I asked you a specific question which you have not answered.  I provided you with links.  Have you read them?  Do you understand what links are?

Also, to learn how to use the quote function, click below in my sig.  The blue words are a link that will take you to a tutorial.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 01:15:01 PM
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I don't care if it offends you.  Really, I don't.  Perhaps if you're offended by it, you'll take it more seriously.  I don't know.  Different approaches work on different people.  In the end, I'd rather you seriously consider the fact that worshiping a being that has the power to stop immense amounts of suffering and does nothing with it, is inherently bad.  Half the problem with Christians is that they lead with their emotions instead of their brains.  They don't know how to temper their emotions with reason and logic.  They think with their gut and that gets them in trouble.


I would never follow someone that does not care if they offend someone or not. Especially if I thought it would make me mean. I temper my emotions just fine thank you.  You really don't know me at all.  If you did you would know that yes I once was Atheist, now I am not. I am not Christian, Apologetic, or any of the rest of that stuff, I am own my own, I call it Spiritual. I know there is a spirit that lives within me, I can feel it trapped inside walls of flesh.  That is the part of me that God wants. The inside.

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It's fine to believe that, but can you prove it?  If I said I had faith in the ability of the unicorn in my garage to keep my tires from going flat, what would you think of me?  I feel the same way about someone who says 'through my faith I believe there is a purpose for your revelation'.  Your faith is absolutely useless.  Just as you would say mine is with the unicorn in my garage.

Not a good comparison.  Creation is my definition of how we came to be, our purpose for surviving this life.  Unicorns don't offer any answers to our existence, if they do I certainly have not heard that one but I wouldn't bite unless the argument that unicorns created man and earth made some sense.  I believe in intelligent Creation, not some freak explosion or evolving apes.  So far after 100,000 years on the planet or so creation is still the most plausible to me. 

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Arguments that invoke the beliefs of the masses are fallacious and should not weigh in on the discussion.  A long time ago, most people believed the world was flat, that demons caused disease, that lightning was divine anger, etc.  The masses are often very, very wrong.  You, personally, are probably not dumb.  But your belief in the Christian God is dumb.  It doesn't matter that you share that problem with lots and lots of people.  You all could really be wrong.  And I'm quite sure you are. 


No, I doubt that.  You were handed one side of a very 2 sided argument and the very core of that argument is what you've held to.  I was handed one side (as you) and looked at the other side myself in an honest attempt at learning what the truth was.  How much atheist literature have you read, Junebug?  How much do you know about how the bible came to be?  How much do you know about the authors?  How much do you know about the historians during the time of Jesus?  How many books have you read about the other gospels that didn't make it into the cannon? 

I've read the bible.  I've visited countless religious websites.  I've read 4 different apologetics books and somewhere near 10 books on atheism.  I've been on this website for several years now, listening to people like you present argument after horrible argument and there is only one possible conclusion.  The Christian God isn't real.  Can you say you've honestly given the other side a fair shot?  I doubt you can.

You would be wrong. I was an atheist for 10 years thank you very much. 

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My path uses reason, yours uses faith.  In every other area of your life, which of those 2, do you think, is more likely to lead to truth?  Now explain to me why it's different with religion.

My path uses reason and faith.

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I wasn't searching for the non-existence of God.  I don't even know what the hell that means.  I wanted to know whether God existed or didn't exist, and I listened to both sides intently, then made my conclusion.

That doesn't make any sense to me. You don't know what the non-existence of God means and your atheist :? Sometimes being hateful just don't make sense.

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You found God because you were looking for God.  I found the truth because I wasn't looking to confirm what I'd been told.  I was looking for truth.
 

I found God because I was searching for truth, the reason I am here etc.. Evolution offers no such answer, so therefor I revisited the idea of Creation by intelligence, by God, and through much study and soul searching I found Him and it wasn't in any church.

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I live in the bible belt.  Do you really think its comfortable to be an atheist here?  If I were looking for comfort, I'd be a sheep like the rest of you.  My comfort lies in knowing I gave an equal ear to both sides before making my decision.

No I know it isn't, I live in the bible belt too,NC, and it's just as "not easy" to be a lesbian here.   

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Because you don't really believe that.  You don't.  How do I know that?  Simple.  If God came down, right now, and fed 30,000 starving children and brought them all back to good health, would you think of that as a good thing or a bad thing?  If you have a shred of decency, you'd think it was a good thing.  You know you'd think it was good.  You KNOW it.  What you are trying to say, however, is that if God did that, HELPING the children would actually be doing something that would NOT be in the interest of the whole human race, and you'd be forced to condemn the action.  You said God doing nothing is what's best for the human race, so that means God helping the human race would be awful.  Do you really, really believe that?  No, you don't.

Of course I would, but what happens when God goes back to His place of being God? I feel like it will get worse because the ones out there that are doing this will not have to bother with a conscience because they would know that God will save whomever they hurt. 

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Truth be told, helping out might not be in the best interest of humanity in every case, but childhood starvation?  Good luck with that one.

God does help starving children, you just can't see it because of your disbelief. 

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If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die.

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

As far as your question I would feed my son, yes I would.  If my son was being starved to death by another son I don't know what I would do.  I would probably feed the hungry one, but I'm afraid of what I might do to the other one.

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Bullshit. If God got your son of pills with the snap of his fingers, would you be angry with him for not allowing your son to struggle with it?  What of those who continue to take the pills and DIE from them? That happens all the time!  Is it really better for God to NOT step in and help those people that he knows are going to die?

God did help my son off drugs. He helps many people get off drugs.  I don't recall ever saying I would be angry with God for helping, I am saying I see a bigger picture than you and I understand why He doesn't do more.   

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It's like you have this mantra running through your mind... God is good, God is good, God is good, anything that contradicts that is false, or just a mystery... STOP doing that.  Use your head.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped your son, it would be a good thing.  It is ALRIGHT to admit that if God helped starving children, that would be a good thing.  It is also, ALRIGHT to admit that because he doesn't, he's either not interested in helping, not powerful enough to do it, or better yet, that he's not actually there in the first place.

God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth so far as I am concerned.  And yes you are right it's okay to believe what you want, so I'll keep on believing, thanks.   

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And what of those who die of starvation before they achieve the rightful age at which they can earn such a promise?  What of the babies who die from AIDS every day?

There is no such thing as a rightful age to achieve such a promise of heaven, I've heard of the age of accountability, which means that you have to be old enough to understand God to be judged, children of any religion I have studied get a free pass right into the pearly gates.  That makes perfect sense to me. 

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And can you prove that heaven exists?  No?  Then it's just a claim.  One that needs to be analyzed for truth versus rhetoric.  Heaven might not exist.

You know I can not prove this, no more than you can prove it does not.  Do you believe in evolution? If so where is the proof of that.  It is only a theory without tests and pictures, but you believe that.   There have been lots and lots of people that have seen a glimpse by way of the near death experience.  Not many have come back to say there is nothing there, I just didn't exist anywhere for those 2 minutes I was dead. 



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Answer the question... IF God wasn't real, would that explain why God doesn't help starving children?  PLEASE answer that.

If God wasn't real there would be a lot more starvation in this world!

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I can't help but wonder what goes through your mind when you say stuff like this.  Would you really be all that upset with God if he came down and fed the children?  It sounds like you would be upset by it.  Is that the person you really are? 


I'm sorry, but if God was real, and he came down and fed all the starving children, I'd be happy about it.  You'd think it was bad for the world if God did that. Your religion has done that to you.  It sounds pretty evil to me.

And yet, in the same breath, you say you want people to feed the hungry children instead, as if it would be a good thing.  Why is it good if people do it but bad if God does it? Because we learn something? Guess what, Junebug.  We haven't learned anything from it.  Kids are still dying.  They've been dying for centuries. If you are basing the entire process of 'earning the promise of heaven' on humanity's ability to feed the poor, then we're all going to hell.  It seems like people, as a whole, aren't getting what you think they should get.  But in the end, whether God helps or people help, the children aren't starving anymore, right?  Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that the deaths of millions of children every year is the wages we have to pay to... consistently fail at taking care of ourselves? 

In truth, this whole thing is nothing more than you trying to deflect the focus away from God's ineptitude and capriciousness and onto humanity, but you should stop trying to do that and really look at what we're saying.   


Good and evil are adjectives used to describe an individual's perceptions of actions, deeds, etc.  Good as a 'thing' does not exist, and neither does 'evil'.  But I can describe actions as good or evil. 


It's not the wording I would use, but it's close enough.  I would say the first part of your sentence is correct, but saying you have no responsibility over your thoughts and actions is debatable.  And it gets into the discussion of free will, which... if I were you... I'd stay clear of. 

People are not inherently good or evil.  Their actions can be good or evil as described by other people's perceptions of those actions.  Even the most horrible people in the world did some good things too.  So calling them 'evil' to describe them as a whole is wrong.

Why do you think your disapproval of what you've said changes anything about the truth of it?  I disapprove of the fact that eating ice cream makes me fat, but you don't see me eating it anyway in hopes that I'll get thin.  The truth doesn't care what I think; nor does it care what you think.

I would be happy to see the children fed and if it costs me my life and the world as we know it, so be it.

I don't think I have disapproved of myself here.


Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 01:54:32 PM
Screw I already gave you my examples of proof. They're as clear and indisputable as the sky is blue. ( that was one of them by the way). However if you want to prove a theory you or any psychologist has, simply list it like I did. Something they said can be used as your proof as well and claim it as your own, I don't care. Either way list one thing that you can say is a situation where real love, ( or in your words, emotion), was controlled into existence. Or a belief will work too. All Im asking for is one and your point is proven. Other than that I have no interest or other argument with you. Just forget any other thing to argue about unless you have an example to disprove this one topic: LOVE AND BELIEFS ARE NOT CONTROLLABLE BY OUR OWN WILL. Thats only point I'm trying to make, I gave you a few of my proofs among millions I could have listed if you need more. All Im asking for is one. If however you agree with me on that 1 issue, then there's no need to argue about anything else because we were just misunderstanding each other. This was only point I was trying to make even if you misunderstood me because I didn't word correctly. Thanks
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 02:13:57 PM
The reason I haven't looked at your post is because I'm only going to believe the psychologists report if there's some concrete evidence. Just like you don't believe in God because of lack of evidence. Why should I not be entitled to same proof as you need. And I don't want some study where they interviewed people and they told them something based on a feeling. I want an example of something in their life or your life where you willed yourself to truly love, or believed something that you willed yourself to believe and it just happened. Don't list examples unless the only reason you loved or believed was because you forced yourself too, then it happened. Then I'll know its possible with others, just not me. And I don't have to have a psychologist, or a preacher , or any theory to validate my claims for the simple fact I used real facts in my life for my examples of proof. If we had to rely on others for all our info the world would have still been considered flat up until a space craft took a picture. Just maybe Im on to something nobody else has thought of!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on March 26, 2013, 02:31:47 PM
Of course I would, but what happens when God goes back to His place of being God? I feel like it will get worse because the ones out there that are doing this will not have to bother with a conscience because they would know that God will save whomever they hurt. 

...

God does help starving children, you just can't see it because of your disbelief. 

...

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.


Your answers are all over the place.

It's bad for god to help people... BUT he does help feed starving children... BUT it's best for those children to starve and die, since they'll be with god, instead of this awful, awful place.

Which is it?  Is god helping people a bad thing?  If so, then it's a bad thing for him to feed starving children.

Is feeding people a good or bad thing?  If letting people starve allows them to enter heaven sooner, then the best thing for us to do would be to let all those people starve.  Sounds like a win-win scenario.  We don't do anything, just like god.  All those people die and go straight to heaven, and they're "saved" from this evil world.

Yet for some reason, god doesn't like it when we don't help others.  Whatever.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 02:36:39 PM
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Why jump straight to magical food?  Why not just tweak the clouds and make it rain some more to allow sufficient crops to grow?  Why not alter the composition of the soil so that more nutrients are held?  I can think of dozens of little "tweaks" that an omnipotent god could make that would allow the starving to help themselves - you know, like he apparently wants them to.  But all the time he doesn't, thousands suffer and die on a daily basis while god twiddles his thumbs and wishes real hard that we'd help them out just that little bit more


Out of interest, when your son was hooked on pain pills (and I wonder how THAT happened?  God's will?), did you expect other people, who didn't know him, to help him out?  I'm glad it all worked out for you....but supposeing it hadn't?  Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?  Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.



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Interesting.  You've said before that you are convinced there is no "negative afterlife" - no hell.  What exactly then - in your opinion - happens to those people who do not "earn Heaven"?  And perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have for your opinion?

I believe in reincarnation.  Seems an appropriate punishment for any man.  The worse you are, the lower down the totem pole you go.  That's what God has placed in my Heart.  As far as evidence, not much. Faith is difficult, that is why it is rewarded.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 03:08:00 PM


[/wow youre all over the place with all the religions mixed together. maybe you got it right. id have to agree the reincarnation thing makes alot more sense than hell for eternity. i just cant believe in any of it though. wish I could. my guess if reincarnation was real, then I would come back as a dog because theyre pretty high up there and Im a pretty good person. however Ive beat a few dogs in my day so my punishment should be to be a dog but have an owner beat me when I don't know where the hell I'm supposed to shit. Now that would be a just God!]
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 03:13:59 PM
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Why jump straight to magical food?  Why not just tweak the clouds and make it rain some more to allow sufficient crops to grow?  Why not alter the composition of the soil so that more nutrients are held?  I can think of dozens of little "tweaks" that an omnipotent god could make that would allow the starving to help themselves - you know, like he apparently wants them to.  But all the time he doesn't, thousands suffer and die on a daily basis while god twiddles his thumbs and wishes real hard that we'd help them out just that little bit more


Out of interest, when your son was hooked on pain pills (and I wonder how THAT happened?  God's will?), did you expect other people, who didn't know him, to help him out?  I'm glad it all worked out for you....but supposeing it hadn't?  Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?  Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.



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Interesting.  You've said before that you are convinced there is no "negative afterlife" - no hell.  What exactly then - in your opinion - happens to those people who do not "earn Heaven"?  And perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have for your opinion?

I believe in reincarnation.  Seems an appropriate punishment for any man.  The worse you are, the lower down the totem pole you go.  That's what God has placed in my Heart.  As far as evidence, not much. Faith is difficult, that is why it is rewarded.




[/wow youre all over the place with all the religions mixed together. maybe you got it right. id have to agree the reincarnation thing makes alot more sense than hell for eternity. i just cant believe in any of it though. wish I could. my guess if reincarnation was real, then I would come back as a dog because theyre pretty high up there and Im a pretty good person. however Ive beat a few dogs in my day so my punishment should be to be a dog but have an owner beat me when I don't know where the hell I'm supposed to shit. Now that would be a just God!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2013, 03:18:59 PM
Cutdogg, You are new here and not familiar with our little virtual culture.  So please take this in the spirit in which I give it - as help and guidance

Just forget any other thing to argue about unless you have an example to disprove this one topic: LOVE AND BELIEFS ARE NOT CONTROLLABLE BY OUR OWN WILL.

Bold mine.  "Prove it doesn't" does not fly.  It is a terrible policy, bad logic and assumes the tactics of the religious.  We adhere to strict burden of proof rules.  She who makes the claim is responsible for the evidence. 

If you make a claim and then demand the other guy disprove it, that is unacceptable.  I could claim Loch Ness monster and demand you "prove it doesn't exist".  How does one prove a loch ness monster isn't real?  Where does one find concrete evidence that a thing does not exist?  Non-existence inherenly leaves no evidence.  So, that kind of argument does not fly.  Not in this neck of the woods.  If I say Loch Ness Monster, then it is up to me to show it. 

Now, in our conversation I've said you can affect attitudes and feelings by taking actions.  I then provided evidence.  I lived up to my burden of proof.  You disagree with me.  That is okay (but in this case ill advised).   However, rather than provide evidence of your own, or explain why my evidence fails, you have demanded I prove you wrong.  Imagine if the god botherers were to come in here and say "I say god exists, it is up to you to prove me wrong"?  Same bad argument.  Same shirking of responsibility for evidence.

Now you have admitted you did not even look at my evidence.  Well, shame on you.  I have put forth a great deal of effort in this conversation, in good faith.  You, on the other hand, have ignored my questions, dismissed my information out of hand and repeated your opinions at me.  I do not find that courteous.  Perhaps me pointing this out to you will help you see the error of your ways. 

The reason I haven't looked at your post is because I'm only going to believe the psychologists report if there's some concrete evidence.

Pardon me, dogg, but that is baloney.  How could you know what is in my link if you haven't read it?  If you do not know what it is in it, you cannot be dismissive of it.  So, sorry, I do not buy this.  It sounds more like an after the fact justification.

Are you even qualified to understand what a psych study entails?  What is your background in science?

Why should I not be entitled to same proof as you need.

You are.  That is why I supported my claims.  You have not.  You have stubbornly ignored evidence presented to you and repeated your unsupported opinions over and over.  We are not playing the same game, old bean.  You are asking for a double standard.

I want an example of something in their life or your life where you willed yourself to truly love, or believed something that you willed yourself to believe and it just happened.

You seem to not be familiar with evidence.  Let me help.  Me telling you some dumb story from my life is called an anecdote.  It is not data.  It is not evidence.  It counts for nothing to anyone else in the world.  It is as credible as some bible thumper coming here and saying they were touched by god.  Instead, I have included links with essays of varying authority. But you would not know that, because you have dismissed them out of hand.

Add to that you still cannot accurately communicate my point nor have you answered any of the questions I asked you.



Put your curson on "guides and tutorials" in my sig, below.  Then left click.  Please learn how to quote.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 03:39:58 PM
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Do you not see the inherent contradiction? 

Think of someone you love.  Think about if they did somthing bad.  Do you think you could help correct or teach him without the consequences being dark or grim?  If so, why do you think an omnipotent being could not?


That is pure SPAG


"I don't understand science so I will be superstitious instead"?  That is not a winning approach.  If everyone were to have kept to that philosophy, we would still be drilling holes in people's heads to let the evil spirits out when they were sick. 


In otherwords, you do not expect god to actually do anything.  You expect the universe to behave in exactly the same way as if there were not gods.  Otherwise, omnipotent beings would not have to work "through" people.


evolution and empathy


So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?


evolution, empathy and mirror neurons.

So you say, but how do you know and why should anyone believe you?

The rest is just a bunch more unfounded claims that make you feel better. 

 
eh, no.  That was you.  It was your own moral compass pointing the way.  That is a good thing.  It tells me you are much more moral and kind than xians.

It's superstition to you not to me.  I really do care.  I am not concerned for anyone's soul here.  Most of you are more righteous than the Christians that spread hate and prejudice in the name of God.  I know the stuff I'm telling you seems out there to you all, but it makes sense to me.

I understand science just fine, that is why evolution does not make sense to me.  If we came from apes the apes would be gone, they are humans now. How could an explosion know the earth would need an atmosphere to protect it from radiation off the sun?  That takes intelligence.  The structure of the smallest creature, intelligence.  Reproduction; intelligence.  Photosynthesis; again intelligence.  I can't believe people out there believe that stuff.  The difference between you and I is that I don't have to insult you to share my beliefs and that is because God guides my spirit not man.  This kind heart comes from God and nowhere else.

As far as the first question, do we not put murderers to death in this country.  Don't believe in it, but we do it.  Why do we do it, because the crime was horrific.  Letting children or anyone else for that matter go hungry until death is horrific.  The masses following the greedy blindly, because you might lose your job and go hungry if you stand up against them, so we cowardly follow along and want God to fix it.  I say it's time we all grow a pair and change the world! What do you think God should do with the rest of us that are responsible for the poverty that kills His precious babies!  Give us time out?  Could he do it Yes He could, The question here I thought was should He? 

When a cop saves a man by shooting the other man, there is a person saved with grim consequences.  One man dies so another may live.  You can't have your cake and eat it too, never understood why not but we all know what this means, I hope.  You can't have God save the children without suffering the consequences. Could He, of course He could, but should He.  Does the human race really deserve to continue if it don't care about the innocent children, disabled, and elderly in it's care?  As long as there are people trying I believe it does, and if I believe it does, it's not hard to believe that God believes it does.  If He saves the children this time, the human race will always expect Him to bail us out and never learn how to get it right. 


Please don't scratch out my eyes.  ;D
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on March 26, 2013, 03:48:00 PM
I understand science just fine, that is why evolution does not make sense to me.  If we came from apes the apes would be gone, they are humans now. How could an explosion know the earth would need an atmosphere to protect it from radiation off the sun?  That takes intelligence.  The structure of the smallest creature, intelligence.  Reproduction; intelligence.  Photosynthesis; again intelligence.  I can't believe people out there believe that stuff.  The difference between you and I is that I don't have to insult you to share my beliefs and that is because God guides my spirit not man.  This kind heart comes from God and nowhere else.

The bold part contradicts the rest of the paragraph. If you actually understood science, you wouldn't have spouted so much BS.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 26, 2013, 04:23:12 PM



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Were you worried about your soul? Why, or why not?

I felt there was something missing in my life, but no I wasn't worried about my soul. I was atheist remember?  It's hard to explain but I will try.  It was like most of you here I couldn't serve a God that wouldn't Love me the way I am, and up until then that is all I heard, your an abomination.  Instead of just taking the masses word for that I decided to see if I could find it in the bible for myself.  What I found is not hate but Love and 1000's of years misunderstanding God.

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How did he speak to you? Big booming god voice? Nope, I bet you heard it in your head, no? See, many theists claim this, but the voices are always inside their head. But, there are many thoughts in many people's heads. And, we find it odd that we atheists never hear those voices claiming to be a god, telling us we're so loved by his omnimax. I wonder why that is.

You can not here something you don't believe in.

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been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.

Like what? What has been revealed?

There is a lot but the most important thing revealed to me is that the Christians got it bad wrong.

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I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

If you're doing things your own way, what credit is your god? You will get support, such that it is, here for doing things your own way. And that's all you've ever done is do things your own way. There are no gods necessary.

Yes God gets the credit , I would still be that hopeless teenager that just wished her life away had God not saved me.  See that's what I keep trying to share with you is God's love, I don't want it all to myself, I have no claim on God, I am His.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 04:32:56 PM
No Screw that's where you're wrong. I did provide evidence of real situations that not only happen to me, but obviously you know they happen to you as well, because you can't give me one instance in your life where you willed yourself to believe or love and you can't list on here the proof of a psychologist or anyone else that had a similar occasion where they believed in something or loved something because they simply willed it into being. Name something one thing to prove your point, I named a few to prove mine. ( love for my wife and kids ( uncontrolled), belief in God or tooth fairy( uncontrolled), can't will or control any of those into real belief or love. It's just there or not, nothing I do or say can control those. And what the psychologists are saying, did they tell you that in a link. Ok then what's the difference in them telling you that, and a preacher telling you there's a God. Either way they can't prove it unless they give you an example of it happening to them. I'm telling you not to prove me wrong, but prove yourself right by listing something someone, including yourself, has willed themselves into believing or a time when you didn't love something, but you forced yourself to truly love with all your heart by forcing yourself to love it. Maybe your wife, or your dad, anything or anybody. Then I will believe you even though I know it's not possible for me. I just would like to know if it is possible for others, but I will only believe you if you tell me what it was. I'm not like you I can take your word on some things, just like if you told me you had brown eyes, I would believe you. And you'd probably believe me if I told you I had 2 arms. But why can't you believe me over some psychologist that's never been in my thoughts, that I can't control what I believe or love????
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 04:40:57 PM
By the way affecting attitudes or feelings by taking actions is not what Im talking about. And even to that I didn't see the proof. Maybe that was the link you were talkin about. I'm talking about affecting love or beliefs. Which again for the 3rd time are not the same. Attitudes and feelings are behaviors and actions that we take that can be faked!! True love and beliefs can not. Really???? Back to square 1 with you again after you just got saying earlier you agree with the whole love and belief thing?? Around and around you go it never stops!!!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 26, 2013, 04:51:55 PM
I can have a good attitude and smile and laugh while some dudes punching me in the face, or I can behave totally righteous for 40 years in fear of hell fire!even if the hell fire may not be true I didn't know for sure. What I can't do is love a God with all my heart and mind if I don't Love him. And I can't believe in a God with all my heart and mind if I've been presented with too much conflicting facts! It can't be done no matter how hard I try!!! End of story! At least I can't, because I tried. You don't have to believe me just try it for yourself. I can sit here and wish my penis to grow 10 " in 10 seconds. Will it happen, no! But I bet you don't have a problem believing that one even without a psychologist. Maybe you've tried it and that's only reason you believe it can't happen. Well then to that I say try wishing yourself in love or a belief.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on March 26, 2013, 06:39:07 PM
I can give personal examples where my emotions were influenced by my actions and willpower.  There have been (many) times that I have been extremely angry about something, but instead of acting on the emotion, I stopped myself and calmed down by force of will and mental discipline.  There have been other times where I have made myself angry, intentionally (though I stopped short of a furious outburst).  I find the proposition that other emotions are fundamentally different than this to be dubious, to say the least.

A lot of things are possible with discipline and determination.  Indeed, they're really what make most things doable.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 26, 2013, 10:55:17 PM
No Screw that's where you're wrong. I did provide evidence of real situations that not only happen to me, but obviously you know they happen to you as well, because you can't give me one instance in your life where you willed yourself to believe or love and you can't list on here the proof of a psychologist or anyone else that had a similar occasion where they believed in something or loved something because they simply willed it into being. Name something one thing to prove your point, I named a few to prove mine. ( love for my wife and kids ( uncontrolled), belief in God or tooth fairy( uncontrolled), can't will or control any of those into real belief or love.

Bad news, cutdogg. Your interpretation of your own experiences, sans external confirmation, does not qualify as truth. It qualifies as your truth for you, perhaps, but that which you think is true and that which is actually true may not be the same. To make matters worse, you are the second person to show up here in recent weeks and claim that since it happened to you, and you interpreted it thusly, that your say on the matter is both accurate and authoritative. So as it happens, our patience for self-proclaimed truthers is a little low these days.

Your experiences regarding love and belief are not automatically universal. Nor are you interpretations regarding the specifics of what happened to you necessarily accurate. For instance, if you are relying on your memory in these cases, you are already in trouble, because there is no such thing as an accurate one (memory, that is). Nothing you remember about anything in your past (and this holds true for all of us) is accurate enough to match actual events. To make matters worse, each time you remember something, what you actually are remembering is the last time you remembered it, not the actual event, and you are not remembering that last time accurately either. So each time to think that you are accessing an accurate memory, you are distorting it even further.

Being a know-it-all is impossible, because none of us have enough information. So you might lighten up a little.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on March 27, 2013, 06:20:15 AM
Quote
Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?   Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.

Sorry, I can't see the answer to my question in your response there - can you point it out for me please?


Quote
If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die.

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

Cool.  So we shouldn't feed the starving, because by doing so we are keeping them from god.

To feed the starving is either a Good Act, or an Evil Act.  You now seem to be saying that your god does not feed them because it gets them to a better place, and this is therefore a Good Act.  So why is it a Good Act when WE feed them, and a Bad Act if we do not?

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".

So why did you try to thwart your god's plan by getting him OFF the drugs?  Why did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

To reiterate my question: why is a Good Act for your god, an Evil Act when we try to address the same issues, and vice versa?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Dante on March 27, 2013, 07:00:36 AM
We
I felt there was something missing in my life, but no I wasn't worried about my soul. I was atheist remember?  It's hard to explain but I will try.  It was like most of you here I couldn't serve a God that wouldn't Love me the way I am, and up until then that is all I heard, your an abomination.

Ummm....we don't serve any gods because they're not real. They have no capacity to love, or hate, or anything else for that matter. They're imaginary constructs of primitive minds.

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How did he speak to you? Big booming god voice? Nope, I bet you heard it in your head, no? See, many theists claim this, but the voices are always inside their head. But, there are many thoughts in many people's heads. And, we find it odd that we atheists never hear those voices claiming to be a god, telling us we're so loved by his omnimax. I wonder why that is.

You can not here something you don't believe in.

Yet you keep claiming you were atheist. I wonder if you know what an atheist is. As someone already said earlier, your answers are all over the place, and lack the consistency of rational thought. You were an atheist, but you found god and he spoke to you. But we can't hear him because we dont believe. So did you believe, or did you not? If not, then how did you hear him? And why cant we? If so, then you were a believer, just an angry one, full of despair.

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been 12 years since then, and God has revealed so much to me I feel obligated to share.

Quote
Like what? What has been revealed?

There is a lot but the most important thing revealed to me is that the Christians got it bad wrong.
[/quote]

But you, being of pure heart, have it all right? Got it. You're a special little snowflake, a messiah.

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I know Christians would just laugh at me where as I thought I might get some support from here.  Not support on the existence of God but maybe a little credit for doing things my own way.

If you're doing things your own way, what credit is your god? You will get support, such that it is, here for doing things your own way. And that's all you've ever done is do things your own way. There are no gods necessary.

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Yes God gets the credit , I would still be that hopeless teenager that just wished her life away had God not saved me.  See that's what I keep trying to share with you is God's love, I don't want it all to myself, I have no claim on God, I am His.

You can keep it, because it's all in your head. You base all your spritual worldview on how you wish it to be, commonly referred here as SPAG; Self Projection As God. Your god fulfills exactly your hopes, dreams, visions of justice and love. I'll wager your god doesn't do anything you disagree with. But hey, don't feel too bad about it. The vast majority theists do it, and at least your version doesn't condemn everyone to eternal torture.

edit: to fix quotes as best I could.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Graybeard on March 27, 2013, 07:41:42 AM
I would still be that hopeless teenager that just wished her life away had God not saved me.  See that's what I keep trying to share with you is God's love,
All very interesting but, two points:

1. I'm not a "hopeless teenager that just wished her life away[1]" so why do you "keep trying to share with you [...] God's love,"?

2. What do you think that Hindus and Buddhists and primitive tribal animists do if they grow up as " a hopeless teenager that just wished [their] life away."?



 1. and as far as I can see, no one else here is either
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 27, 2013, 09:35:15 AM
It's superstition to you not to me.

Whether it is superstion is not a matter of taste or perspective.  It either is, or it is not.  And in this case, it is.

I understand science just fine, that is why evolution does not make sense to me.  If we came from apes the apes would be gone, they are humans now.

Junebug, that is not how it works.  You most definitley do not understand science, specifically evolution, just fine.  In fact, you appear to not understand it at all.  I know this because I actually studied science.  I recommend that you do some better research from a legitimate science source.  I cannot help you.  I have neither the time nor the energy and I doubt you would believe anything I said anyway.  That last part is a shame. 

I'll help you out. 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat03.html  Read the bottom of the link
http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask150
http://www.evolutionfaq.com/faq/if-man-evolved-ape-then-why-are-there-still-apes

If you want to believe in god, I guess that is your prerogative.  But you should find a different reason to justify your belief.  Because the reason you give for it is completely wrong.  My point here is not that evolution is correct.  It is, but that is not my point.  My point is what you think is evolution, is not evolution.  Your description of evolution is as far away from evolution as can be.  It would be like me describing jesus H as a mutant with superpowers who was part of the Justice League with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman.  That is how wrong you are.

It would be one thing if you rejected evolution for what it actually said.  But that is not what you are doing.  You are rejecting crazy ideas (rightly so) and calling them evolution, which they are not. 

How could an explosion know the earth would need an atmosphere to protect it from radiation off the sun?

This is also not evolution.  This, I presume, is your take on Big Bang, which is an entirelt different theory in an entirely different branch of science.  And it is also wrong on every level.  There was no "explosion".  And the "explosion" does not know things. There was no goal or requirement for the universe to produce us.  We exist on earth because we could not exist on venus, or mars, or in the vast majority of the universe.  We exist on earth because the conditions allow us to exist.  We are a product of the environment.  And the conditions of the environment are a happy coincidence.

Your thinking implies we were a given and everything is here for us.  That is like a carbuncle on the hull of a ship thinking the ship was built for it to attach to.  Or a puddle thinking the hole it which it sits was tailor made for itself.
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/70827-this-is-rather-as-if-you-imagine-a-puddle-waking

I can't believe people out there believe that stuff.

That is because you have been poorly educated.  Sorry.  It's true.

The difference between you and I is that I don't have to insult you to share my beliefs

You don't have to be insulted when someone points out you are wrong on the facts.  I think you should be grateful.  If some thing I believe is wrong - that is, if it conflicts with reality - then I want to know.  I only want to believe what is true.  I would bre grateful if someone pointed out my error.

As far as the first question, do we not put murderers to death in this country.

You are making god very human.  You are assigning all of our human flaws and thinking to an allegedly omnipotent, omniscient being.  If you had magical power to do anything do you think you could find a way to help the people who need it without the results being "grim and dark"?

A god who supposedly loves everyone and can do literally anything does not need to resort to human style justice.

When a cop saves a man by shooting the other man, there is a person saved with grim consequences.  One man dies so another may live.  You can't have your cake and eat it too,

I could have my cake and eat it if I was omnipotent. 

We are not talking about a cop of limited mortal means.  We are talking about the OMNIPOTENT creator of ALL BEING.  His resources are limitless.  If god were the cop, he would not have to shoot anyone to save anyone.  He would just need to will it to be. 

You can't have God save the children without suffering the consequences.

You do not seem to be able to grasp the idea of god and power.  You keep thinking god is just some invisible guy.

Please don't scratch out my eyes.  ;D

I don't know why I would scratch out your eyes.  Being completely ignorant about science does not warrant being blinded. 

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 09:39:17 AM
To Jaimehlers: the example you listed is not what Im talkin about. So I really wish people would stop skim reading. You said your emotions were altered because of choice. Duhhh, who's isn't on a daily basis. Terrible example. I'm asking someone to list a time in their life where they willed or controlled what they believed by simply trying hard to believe it. Same with loved someone or thing by will power. Not emotions controlled, but real love for something or belief in something. That's it!!! For example: can I will myself to believe in the tooth fairy by trying real hard. Reason may be so I can tell my kids about her, without lying to them. I want to believe in her with all my heart. And example of Willing myself to love is: I've fell out of love with my wife, lets say, but I don't want to ruin the family so is there a way I can will myself to be head over hills in love with her so I don't leave her for another woman?? And that means without changing a thing about her. Only then would I know I willed myself and controlled love. That and only that is where I'd like an example from someone to know if its only me that can't do this. And to Parking Place that posted that Im a knowitall: I don't know it all, that's why Im asking you to give me an example because I have this issue Im trying to find out about to see if Im only one that its impossible to control my love and belief. I want to know because Its one of my biggest rebuttals to the whole Christian concept of being punished for something out of your control. I simply use memory that you say isn't valid. The same way you use memory of what people taught you in school that Earth is flat, or what size shoe you wear. Imagine how ridiculous I sound arguing with you about your hair color and I've never seen you. Didnt you get that hair color claim from memory? That's how stupid you sound arguing with me that I can't think of any time in my life that I willed love or beliefs into existence. I simply learned beliefs through experience( that you say is invalid), and learned love because It grew inside me with no control of my own. That's what happened to me, now tell me how you get those things by will power so I can know its not just me!!!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 09:54:35 AM
I thought Christians were bad about giving concrete examples, at least they try. Not one atheist on here can list a time when they altered love or a belief by willpower and then they claim it can be done and Im stupid. I thought they used reason, logic, and examples to back up claims. I at least attempted to give you mine, I would appreciate same courtesy to just get one. If that's too much to ask then just admit you can't come up with one and quit acting like Christians who evade the topic
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Jag on March 27, 2013, 09:56:28 AM
Cutdogg, you've asked for an example of willing oneself to love, and appear to be ... displeased with the responses. I'm going to try to illustrate the concept that (I think) is being conveyed. Best advice I ever got, by the way...

I attended a party for some family friends who had been married for 50 years. I asked the husband, who I've known for literally my entire life, how they had managed to stay happily married for so long. He laughed and said that "happily married for 50 years" wasn't entirely accurate, that they had had plenty of difficult years. The secret, according to this wise fellow, is to "never fall out of love at the same time." He went on to point out that it's ridiculous to expect to be giddy in love (his words) forever, and that when he found himself falling out of love with his wife, he deliberately acted more loving, because he knew he wanted to stay married to his wife, regardless of whether or not he was in love with her at that time. Eventually, he would "fall back in love" with her, every time. It goes both ways - his wife had the same experiences, I'm certain.

Every successful long term relationship I'm aware of follows this path in some manner. When you are committed to the relationship, you are committed. You don't love your wife the exact same way you did on the day you married her, or the exact same way you will love her in a decade. If you've been married for any length of time, there have been days where you didn't love your wife, and days she didn't love you, but you both faked it until the feelings of love that are specific to the both of you about each other came back. Actions absolutely do affect feelings,, it's an extremely well-documented psychological phenomenon.

Having said all that, and assuming you're still reading this, I do understand the point you are making - that how you feel is how you feel, and that you can't force yourself to believe in something you don't believe in, much less love it. If god is real, then he would be able to see through the fakery, so it's kind of a catch-22. I agree with that premise (to a point, as demonstrated above), and have said the same thing more or less, probably here in this forum. The premise itself is fine, but the additional matters that got tossed in are subjective (so far), and you've been given links to demonstrate why the rest of what you're saying is factually incorrect. If you don't want to verify that your assumptions are true, that's fine, but getting others to agree with your assumptions when given support that you may be wrong is unlikely.

Edited for clarification
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Jag on March 27, 2013, 10:02:06 AM
I thought Christians were bad about giving concrete examples, at least they try. Not one atheist on here can list a time when they altered love or a belief by willpower and then they claim it can be done and Im stupid. I thought they used reason, logic, and examples to back up claims. I at least attempted to give you mine, I would appreciate same courtesy to just get one. If that's too much to ask then just admit you can't come up with one and quit acting like Christians who evade the topic

Do you have any idea how rude you are being?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 10:11:27 AM
Ok Jag, I can accept that. And I certainly appreciate the example cuz it seems valid on the love. The only thing though about that example I question is even though he didn't feel in love with her at times, didn't he still love her? Maybe he truly didn't. But I myself have done the same thing with my wife. Matter of fact, I'm not in love( infatuated)with her now, but I do love her deeply. I've never been in a situation where I loved something because I willed myself to love it though. I willed myself to stay with my wife during bad times because I thought about consequences of divorce, but thats just controlling my circumstances, not my love. And my love changed for her since then as well, but it was because I gave it a chance, so I guess in a sense I did control it. Not sure though if the same thing though because I at least loved her to begin with and that itself was out of my control. Now about the belief system and ability to alter that, you do see where I'm coming from it seems.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 10:15:22 AM
Well sorry if I came off rude. Until you came along and gave an example I was getting nothing but rudeness and name calling myself. You even sounded rude at end of your comment, but I overlooked it because you were so nice in trying to answer my question. Again, sorry but frustrated for answers and examples instead of demeaning remarks.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on March 27, 2013, 10:15:42 AM
Love is an emotion.  Emotional belief (belief fueled by emotions), also counts.

If you want something to be true, you can convince yourself that it is true.  And if you don't want it to be true, you can convince yourself that it isn't.  People do this all the time, Cutdogg; it's how the human mind works.  Where do you think all these myths and beliefs that we're saddled with came from?  It's very easy to become saddled with beliefs that aren't true, or beliefs that true things aren't.

Why do you think theists are always trying to get nonbelievers to "open their hearts", to believe in the god they worship?  It's because it works unless someone actively guards against it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 27, 2013, 10:31:42 AM
No Screw that's where you're wrong. I did provide evidence of real situations that not only happen to me,

Cutdogg, what you offered was not evidence.  It was an anecdote. This was my point to you about evidence.  Apparently that information either sailed clear over your head or was deflected by your cranium.  Either way, it did not find its way to your brain.

you can't give me one instance in your life...

You don't get it.  I've tried to explain as simply and straight forward as I can, but you do not get it.  That is not evidence.  You may think it is, but it's not.   

You keep mischaracterizing what I have said by bringing up "will" and "belief" even though I've corrected you repeatedly.   I've never said you can will yourself to believe anything.  Will never came into the conversation until you brought it in and I have consistenly rejected it.  Somehow that has not sunk in with you.   

We cannot have a conversation about this.  You lack the background and reading comprehension.  The gap between your knowledge and mine is too great.   Example:

And what the psychologists are saying, did they tell you that in a link. Ok then what's the difference in them telling you that, and a preacher telling you there's a God.

Fabulously wrong.  Comparing scientific research to the grotesque proclamations of a shaman.  You demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of and respect for science.  I have neither the time nor the inclination to help educate you, especially since you have resisted my corrections of the simplest things in this conversation.     

But why can't you believe me over some psychologist that's never been in my thoughts, that I can't control what I believe or love????

Because you have convinced me you are an idiot.[1] 

I cannot talk to you anymore.  Good luck.

 1. For the record, that was the first time in this thread you were called a name.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 10:42:17 AM
Alright Jaime, I appreciate that but why won't that work for me? Any suggestions on how I could believe in the tooth fairy? or God?? Because I wanted to for 40 years and I did all the things that a Christian does but my love for him never manipulated. Nor did my questions on whether he really existed. And the more I studied the Bible, the more contradictions I read, creating more confusion and doubt until I didn't believe anymore. I really would rather believe in God, Jesus, and the whole Christian philosophy, but I never could probably for same reason you can't. Therefore I choose to, but don't. Same reason no matter how hard I try, I can't believe Santas bringing presents, or the Earth is square. The facts show me otherwise. So if facts show me other wise that God isn't true, than why does it make sense that God punishes us for not believing when it's not something I control? Wouldn't that be same thing as punishing them for being blind at birth? Also would help and convince me better I can control this if you listed something in your life you controlled into a belief, and not because you saw evidence that made those decisions for you. Something you had to will into a belief when it wasn't there. Making you responsible for your actions.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 10:51:26 AM
Like I said Screw, give yourself an example of willing yourself to belief, than you'll see its not possible, unless you can give example in your own life than youll know for yourself you can. you wont need a psychologist or me to tell otherwise. same with willing or controlling love. I know I can't, but maybe you can there bud. That's all I'm saying, not disagreeing or giving proof for your abilities, just mine. But if you can come up with something let me know how you did it and then if you'd be nice enough to share , maybe I can learn. Hope you have a good day
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Jag on March 27, 2013, 10:53:59 AM
Well sorry if I came off rude. Until you came along and gave an example I was getting nothing but rudeness and name calling myself. You even sounded rude at end of your comment, but I overlooked it because you were so nice in trying to answer my question. Again, sorry but frustrated for answers and examples instead of demeaning remarks.

Sigh...

Apologies if my post sounded rude to you near the end - it wasn't my intent. I was attempting to clarify for you exactly what the others were disputing with you. I sat down and read your contributions and the responses on this entire thread before I posted anything, and although I don't think you see it, your posts have been a bit demanding and presumptuous. Frankly, your posts read (to me at least) as if you are angry and looking for a fight. If that interpretation is wrong, please at least try to keep it in mind when you post - so far, your style is rather aggressive and argumentative. There's nothing wrong with that - we certainly love a good argument here - but people will respond the same way.

The only thing though about that example I question is even though he didn't feel in love with her at times, didn't he still love her? Maybe he truly didn't.

Truthfully, there's no way for me to know the answer to that question.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 11:09:34 AM
Yeah I probably did come off rude and looking for a fight. I promise it didn't start out like that, but when I couldn't get people to answer the question like you just did, my tone changed out of frustration. But probably because I wasn't saying exact words I meant to relay and people are misreading what I meant. It can't be coincidence that everyone teamed up against me for a reason, so I must have not explained good what I really meant. I think you understand me totally though, so it's much easier to talk to you. And even you admit that we will never know whether the man truly loved. I know in my case though I've never been able to control my beliefs or love, so I started this whole debate to find out if anyone else realized same thing in theirs. Just wanted to know if Im alone with this curse. Thanks man. Good talk
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on March 27, 2013, 12:01:54 PM
I'm not a psychologist, or even a psychiatrist, but remember how I said that it takes discipline?  Changing beliefs that you hold is not an easy process, it's one that takes a long time and effort.  And if you've tried and failed, it'll be that much harder the next time you try - it becomes a self-defeating prophecy.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 01:17:44 PM
Ok maybe you're right about this and I just can't do it. That's why I wanted to know if anyone else has this problem. But can you honestly list something that you forced into a belief, or love for that matter??? I'm still waiting on one example of something in your life you can honestly say was forced. Until then, how do you know what you say is true that it can be forced with determination and willpower?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 01:24:03 PM
Jaime I have tried to force love and belief for 40 years. It doesn't work for me. Everyone on here including yourself, that disagrees with me still can't name a time in their personal life where they achieved it. They keep giving me the excuse that psychologists say its possible. But the problem I have with that is they aren't listing the examples where it happened. People listed the fact you can change attitudes or behaviors, which I agree, but those attitudes and behaviors are manifestations of a belief or love you have to have in the first place. I tried changing my attitudes and behaviors to accomplish beliefs or love, and it never worked in that order. That's all Im saying
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on March 27, 2013, 01:34:28 PM
My beliefs have never changed because I said to myself "okay, I will believe this now."  They changed when i had doubts about an existing belief (or set of beliefs) and searching for more information gave me new insight.

I have never felt love for someone by way of acclamation.

I don't know if that is what you're asking, nor do I know what others have said in response because I've been skimming the topic (it's gotten long and protracted and a fair bit repetitive for me).  Hopefully this doesn't derail the discussion.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 01:43:43 PM
Thank you Tonus!!!!!!! You hit it on the nail!!! Finally someone understands and he barely read. Exactly!!! Wooohoooo!!! Praise The Lord!!!! Lol.
Sigh....
Now, with that point finally being understood, the reason I brought that up in the beginning was to prove that the Christian logic makes no sense because the whole concept of it is that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ dying, raising up from dead, and becoming our personal savior, for us to escape hell, then you will be damned forever. But my point that Tonus and I agree on is, you can't control that just like you can't control what color skin you're born with. You simply believe what you believe because of facts through life you pick up on along the way. Same works for real love. You love, because you started loving something or someone and it was out of your control. So why would a just and all knowing God condemn us for doing something we can't control!!!
And that's just one of the concepts that don't make sense with Christian beliefs. Plenty others but that right there is the main point they push!!!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: naemhni on March 27, 2013, 01:50:19 PM
Now, with that point finally being understood, the reason I brought that up in the beginning was to prove that the Christian logic makes no sense because the whole concept of it is that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ dying, raising up from dead, and becoming our personal savior, for us to escape hell, then you will be damned forever. But my point that Tonus and I agree on is, you can't control that just like you can't control what color skin you're born with. So why would a just and all knowing God condemn us for doing something we can't control!!!

Right.  In philosophy, the idea that you can choose your own beliefs is known as "doxastic voluntarism", and it's pretty contentious.  Some apologists attempt to defend the concept, which is really puzzling to me.  As the article on the topic at RationalWiki says, it's like saying that you can choose to become a Muslim because you tripped on a piece of bacon.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Jag on March 27, 2013, 01:53:53 PM
Let's try framing it a little differently.

There are atheists on this board who are former believers, along with other atheists who never believed in the first place. This is a fact. For now let's focus on the first kind, former believers.

Some of these people would state that they believed without any doubts for quite some time - their belief was both real and sincere. Rather than tell any one specific story, I'll just share the general path that many of us followed to get to this place, where we no longer believe as we used to.

Some event or realization caused questions, which led to doubts about what they had formerly believed without question. Eventually, by way of discussion, reading, questioning, whatever, these people eventually became non-believers about the existence of God. This in no way invalidates the depth of belief they once had - True BlueTM believers do exist, and some of them change their minds based on specific circumstances.

For the record, that's not quite how it worked for me - I think I never entirely believed it, so my de-conversion didn't involve the same process of letting go of a belief - I had to let go of the fear of admitting to not believing, if that distinction makes sense. I think some of the push back you are getting on this topic is because you aren't considering other people's experiences with beliefs that changed, and there are many, many people on this board who fit the basic story I described above.

You keep talking about an act of will, I know, but you seem to be vastly underestimating the amount of will required in literally forcing yourself to see the world as it is, rather than as we wish it was or have been mistakenly led to believe it is.

Perhaps your truth is similar to mine - you wanted, desperately at times, to believe, but simply couldn't force yourself to do so. This doesn't mean there's something wrong with you, it could be that you always had some deep seated doubts that were uncomfortable to look at, so you ignored them for as long as you could. When you could no longer try to force this love and belief due to 40 years of consistent failure to get the results you were led to expect, you just accepted what you had suspected all along and admitted to yourself that you don't believe in a god. You failed in your efforts, not because science and psychology are wrong (not really what you said, I know) but because you knew it wasn't real. That makes considerably more sense to me.

The failure isn't with science or psychology, it's with the promotion of belief in things that can't be proven but that you are expected to allow to govern your life. Seeing religion for what it is, an amateur attempt at psychology and a means to control people's behavior, is a GOOD thing.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 02:18:14 PM
Yeah, I was raised in a Christian home so I did believe growing up with all my mind. But that was same thing as why kids believe in Santa and tooth fairy. Once I got in my 20s I noticed the doubts. When I was 38 I really started doubting because that's when I really started deeply studying Bible. Now at 41, it's first time I admitted to others Im not a Christian. I'm not going to say there's no possibility of a God, and be totally atheist, although I understand that aspect way better than I understand Christian side. But either way, that's my story. I just believe that through everything, I've come to conclusion that you Love what you Love, and Believe what you Believe. And it's all uncontrollable on my part because I tried. And I believe in something because of facts I've been presented, and when I was a Christian in total belief, I believed that because of facts in Bible I was presented to be true and didn't really try to second guess them. But either way, the most detrimental aspect that changed my mind was the fact I couldn't understand how an all-knowing God could punish for not believing. I simply believe because I do, or I don't. If it was a choice, then I'd still be a Christian.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
Thanks Piano for the terminology on that. So It seems many people on here also believe in that nonsense. And they're atheists, so it's a good topic to discuss. I'm glad you agree as well that its not possible because then I know Im not only one. And the Muslim bacon comparison another good one to ponder on!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 02:53:22 PM
Thank you again Piano dwarf for clarifying the definition. Here's a post to read for all about this topic I've been trying to convey, maybe explain better why I don't believe you can control the belief:

Some political philosophers have traditionally utilized the preceding type of argument against the possibility of an ethics of belief in their arguments for toleration (see, for example, Bayle 2005; Locke 1983; Mill 1974; Spinoza 2001). The general line of thought is as follows. People can control whether they conduct an inquiry and whether they evaluate a body of evidence, so they are certainly responsible for inquiring and examining evidence. However, since the Blameworthiness Principle is true and since believing (or, more specifically, judging) is not the sort of thing over which people have voluntary control, if people examine a body of evidence in good conscience and form a belief regarding a proposition, the state has no right to punish them for holding that belief. Thus, for instance, although the state may demand that people hear the evidence for a particular religion, it has no right to punish people for failing to believe the tenets of that religion.

Some philosophers of religion have suggested that the same kind of argument applies to questions of justice not only regarding human affairs, but also regarding divine affairs. For example, they contend that it follows from the falsity of direct doxastic voluntarism and the truth of the Blameworthiness Principle that not even God could punish people, in this life or in the next, for failing to believe the tenets of a certain religion. Thus, they contend that a just God could not torment people eternally in hell, for failing to believe the tenets of a certain religion. Those who wish to deny this line of argument seem compelled to choose among the following strategies. First, they could attempt to show that direct doxastic voluntarism is true. Second, they could attempt to demonstrate that the Blameworthiness Principle is false. Third, they could attempt to show that God holds people accountable not for failing to form certain judgments about a particular set of religious principles, but for some other fault(s)—for example, failing to conduct an adequate investigation into or failing to be open to the truth of the tenets of a certain religion.

I believe the doxastic voluntarism theory is false, and that the Blameworthiness Principle is true.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Jag on March 27, 2013, 03:07:40 PM
^^^ THAT makes much more sense. I've agreed with you all along that actual belief can't be willed into existence, but I do think it can be willed out of existence, if the believer chooses to re-examine those beliefs (whatever they are) and finds them lacking in substance or credibility or whatever.

Maybe this is just a semantic issue. I think the point that screwtape and other have been trying to make is that it's not quite as cut-and-dried as your posts have suggested. Attitudes, conditioning, attachment, behaviors, and actions all impact each other in both directions. I can have a knee-jerk dislike of something, believing it to be "bad" for lack of a better word in this case, but can be proven wrong by experience, thereby changing my belief. My belief may have been wrong in the first place, but it doesn't mean I didn't truly believe it to start with.

As to religion, I agree with you about this. IF there is a god, and IF he/she/it is paying any attention to us, it makes little sense for that entity to punish non-believers for the "sin" of non-belief. It's not optional - either you believe or you don't. I couldn't become a believer as an act of will, and if god actually existed, then god would know I was faking anyway. This is my standard reply to Pascal's Wager. Hardly the first stupid faith-based belief we've encountered, and sadly, it won't be the last one either.

Edited to include last paragraph, which was the point of the post...too little coffee today.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 03:15:02 PM
Yeah Jag, but you still don't understand you're not willing them out of belief, you're simply discovering or searching for new facts that contradict what you believed before. I never said that, I said you can't control the belief once the facts are presented. You all misunderstood and you still do misunderstand if you think you choose what not to believe.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 03:17:30 PM
You can choose all day to not believe the sky is blue but with the facts there I think you won't really believe it in your mind. Same principle can be applied to true love I believe
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Jag on March 27, 2013, 03:17:46 PM
^^^ Sorry, I was editing while you were replying and we crossed in transit. My bad.

I think we actually agree on this topic, more or less.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Jag on March 27, 2013, 03:19:25 PM
And we're moving from a conversation about belief to one about truth. I HAVE to stop for a while and get some work done - I'll try to visit this again later today.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 27, 2013, 03:21:51 PM
Ok, yeah probably wasn't a good example since that's proven. But you can still use that theory for things that aren't. Take care and get at it. I'll holla
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: JeffPT on March 27, 2013, 11:09:27 PM
I would never follow someone that does not care if they offend someone or not. Especially if I thought it would make me mean.

Thank you for proving my point.  You lead with emotions.  You're far more worried about how a post makes you feel as opposed to what the actual arguments are. 

I temper my emotions just fine thank you.

Yes, but you temper your emotions with more emotion.  In my experiences, women are more emotional than men, so it doesn't surprise me all that much.  And religious women are unbelievably emotional.  Again, that's just my experiences. 

If you did you would know that yes I once was Atheist, now I am not. I am not Christian, Apologetic, or any of the rest of that stuff, I am own my own, I call it Spiritual. I know there is a spirit that lives within me, I can feel it trapped inside walls of flesh.  That is the part of me that God wants. The inside.

Yes... I'm sure you were once an atheist lol.  Pardon me for thinking your lying.  I'd bet cash money that you were raised with religion and to believe in a god, even if you didn't follow that specific path as life passed by for you. 

There is no spirit living inside of you.  You ARE walls of flesh.  When your brain ceases working, you just stop existing.  It's just what you want to believe with no proof at all behind it.  Show me even one spec of data that shows there's a spirit living inside of you that is separate from your body.  I dare you. 

Not a good comparison.  Creation is my definition of how we came to be, our purpose for surviving this life.  Unicorns don't offer any answers to our existence, if they do I certainly have not heard that one but I wouldn't bite unless the argument that unicorns created man and earth made some sense.

Where to begin with this one....

So your argument is that for a claim to be valid, it has to offer an answer to our existence?  I can't just claim stuff and expect you to believe it.... UNLESS it explains our entire existence?  And THEN it's valid, no matter how dumb it is?  My unicorn example explains, in great detail, and with much logical sense, why the tires in my car don't go flat.  Does that mean it's true? 

And do you think 'making some sense' has any real bearing on whether or not a claim is actually true?  It made sense that the world was flat.  It made sense that demons caused disease.  It made sense that Zeus caused lightning and thunder.  Why do you think the fact that some lame ass creation story 'makes sense' to you has even the slightest bearing on whether or not it's true?  God bowling makes sense as a cause for thunder.  That doesn't mean it's true. 

I believe in intelligent Creation, not some freak explosion or evolving apes.  So far after 100,000 years on the planet or so creation is still the most plausible to me. 

Oh boy... here comes the scientific illiteracy.  Let me ask you something...  Do you know how your computer works?  I mean top to bottom, inside and out, nuts to bolts?  No?  If no, then how do you explain how it works?  Do you assume that there's little tiny people inside responding to all your inputs (as a completely baseless guess as to how it works, like your spiritual explanation about how and why life is here) or would you find a scientific explanation more satisfying?  Guess what, your notions of creationism pushed onto a group of people well versed in evolutionary theory would be akin to you approaching a computer engineer and claiming that it's more reasonable for you to believe that there are little men inside responding to your every input.  You don't understand evolution.  If you did, you wouldn't say what you said.  In fact, you'd be totally embarrassed by it.  Do you really think we don't have a reasonable, rational response to your 'evolving apes' contention?  Please... 

You would be wrong. I was an atheist for 10 years thank you very much. 

Name a single atheist book you've read. 

... I thought so. 

My path uses reason and faith.

Faith doesn't need reason.  That's why it's called faith.  Because it's not based on reason. 

That doesn't make any sense to me. You don't know what the non-existence of God means and your atheist :? Sometimes being hateful just don't make sense.

You said I was searching for the non-existence of God.  That doesn't make any sense.  Could you search for the non-existence of unicorns?  Where would you actively search to NOT find unicorns?  I know what non-existence of God means.  I just don't understand how you can look for it.  If you meant that I was out to prove God does NOT exist, that's different and completely wrong.  I started with the question of 'is it more likely that God is real or not real' and I looked at both sides extensively.  It's not a close contest. It's a landslide victory for atheists.  There is no Christian God nor any other god that I've ever heard of.  Yes, even the one you've made up is more than likely not real.   

I found God because I was searching for truth, the reason I am here etc..

No.  You went LOOKING for God.  If you LOOK for God, you're going to find God.  Just like in my analogy if I LOOK for rotator cuff problems, I'm going to FIND rotator cuff problems.  You have to LOOK for what's actually there, not what you've been told was there.  You weren't searching for the truth.  You said you were looking for God.  Well, surprise surprise you found him. 

But yet again, thinking there is a 'reason' for you being here biases the search.  You must first ask 'does there need to be a reason why I'm here'.  The answer is no.  If you start with 'What is the reason for me being here?', then you've already formed a conclusion that there is a reason and now you need to find it.  Which makes the god explanation so tempting for you.  Because it's an easy answer for everything, even though this is the 21st century and your thinking is like that of people 2000 years ago.  We have better answers now. 

Evolution offers no such answer, so therefor I revisited the idea of Creation by intelligence, by God, and through much study and soul searching I found Him and it wasn't in any church.

Evolution answers HOW we got here, but you're right... it doesn't answer why.  The answer to why we are here is implied in the process of evolution.  We are here because of the natural progression of evolution on our planet. 

But what makes you think, Junebug, that you... little old you... has discovered the secret to God and the entirety of the worlds 7 billion other people are all getting it wrong?  And all the people that have lived and died in the past hundred thousand years were all wrong too, but not you!  No... not you.  You've figured it all out.  All by yourself through your 'study and soul searching'.  There's no way that you... no, not you... could be wrong about it now, is there?  All the OTHER people are wrong, but not you.   

Yeah... sure.  I'm sure you've got it. 

You know, people who are deluded generally don't know they're deluded.  And they all believe, with vigorous intensity, that they're right.  But guess what?  They're not.  You're not either. 

Of course I would, but what happens when God goes back to His place of being God?

1.  People survive! 
2.  Parents rejoice!
3.  People see God and fall down on their knees to worship his generosity!
4.  Atheists see the evidence first hand and admit their mistakes, embracing the wonder and love that God shows to his children!

I feel like it will get worse because the ones out there that are doing this will not have to bother with a conscience because they would know that God will save whomever they hurt. 

Of course you 'feel' that, because it's too terrible to admit the obvious repulsiveness of God not helping starving children when it only takes a simple thought to do so.  You have to explain it away, and this is just how you do it.  It's that simple.  It's called cognitive dissonance, which means you hold 2 conflicting ideas inside your head at the same time.  The first is that God is good, and the second is that God lets children starve, which is obviously not good.  The only way for you to hold on to the first is to explain away the second with some ridiculous story about how bad it would be if God simply helped everyone out.  It's a lost cause Junebug.  The much more explanatory theory which explains why God does not feed starving children is because God isn't real to begin with.  BTW, that also explains why people get cancer, AIDS, and all sorts of other awful things. 

God does help starving children, you just can't see it because of your disbelief. 

First of all, prove it.  Show me.  Provide a single spec of evidence for this. 

Second... you already said that God helping starving children would be bad.  So are you angry at God for helping the starving children? 



Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.
God isn't real, so I don't know how to determine whether or not dying is a bad thing to something that isn't real.  But if God was real, then yeah, I'd say he'd think dying was bad. 

Do you have any evidence to present as to whether or not God thinks dying is a good or bad thing?  Otherwise, you're just saying something that has no basis in truth. 

Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

If you really believe that, then what are you waiting for?  Go up and join them.  I don't understand why people like you stay alive if you really think the next world is better than this one?  It's like staying in a sucky job when the best job in the history of the world is offered to you.  It doesn't make sense. 

I'm not afraid of death at all.  I'm afraid of dying in severe pain, but not death itself.  So speak for yourself here. 

Also, please present a single spec of evidence in favor of the claim that all those children are dead somewhere much more glorious than here.  Otherwise, you're just wishing that were true. 

As far as your question I would feed my son, yes I would.  If my son was being starved to death by another son I don't know what I would do.  I would probably feed the hungry one, but I'm afraid of what I might do to the other one.

You're a better person than God then.  The reason you'd feed your son is because you love your son.  Do you really think God loves his children if he lets 30,000 of them die every single day? 

God did help my son off drugs. He helps many people get off drugs.
Uh huh.  And where was God when your son got ON the drugs?  And where was God when all those other people got on the drugs?  You see... that's what you people really don't get.  If he exists, your God knew EXACTLY when your son was going to take drugs, and he let him do it.  He stood right next to him every single time he popped a pill and never stepped in.  Then, later on, you give God all the credit for getting him OFF the drugs, as if God suddenly realized what was going on and put a stop to it.  That's utterly freaking ridiculous.  You praise God for helping your son off drugs, yet you don't condemn God for letting him get on the drugs in the first place! 

I don't recall ever saying I would be angry with God for helping, I am saying I see a bigger picture than you and I understand why He doesn't do more.   

Is it not possible that this is just the excuse you've come up with to explain away the fact that some really awful things happen down here and God doesn't lift a finger to stop them?  That this is the reasoning your mind had to go through in order to maintain your belief that God is good despite some very serious evidence to the contrary? 

Some people get off drugs.  Others die from it.  Some get off drugs only to relapse later on.  If God didn't exist, then its the individual who finds a way to get off the drugs and its also the individual who winds up dead.  That's a reasonable explanation, is it not? 

Do you know what the bigger picture is?  Do you have evidence of it?  Any proof at all? 

God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth so far as I am concerned. 
There is a unicorn in my garage and anything that contradicts it is not the truth as far as I'm concerned. 

This is how you sound.  You said you used reason.  Where is it?  I don't see it. 

There is no such thing as a rightful age to achieve such a promise of heaven, I've heard of the age of accountability, which means that you have to be old enough to understand God to be judged, children of any religion I have studied get a free pass right into the pearly gates. 
I assert that the rightful age to achieve the promise of heaven is 16 years, 3 months, 4 days and 13 hours.  Prove me wrong.  With evidence. 

Better yet, prove that there is a heaven.  Prove that there is a God that judges people.  If you've studied so much, show your work.  Show me the proof.  If you can't, do you realize you just might be making the whole thing up, and the idea that God let's every child into heaven is only what you believe because, as you said, God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth?   

You know I can not prove this, no more than you can prove it does not.
So it's as likely or unlikely as the notion that we all turn into forks after we die.  You can't prove we don't, I can't prove we do.  Same thing.  It's just your guess. 

Do you believe in evolution? If so where is the proof of that. 

First, evolution isn't something you believe.  It's something you accept or reject based on the evidence.  And yes, I accept evolution because I understand it. 

Evolution is both a fact and a theory.  Species change over time.  This is a fact.  For proof, just look at dog breeding, cattle breeding, plant breeding, or any other form of life breeding you can find.  If you have 1000 cows and you want the biggest and best cows in the future, you mate the biggest cows together and they produce big cows.  Over a few generations of doing it, the cows get bigger and bigger and bigger.  For dogs, every single type of dog came from a wolf.  A chihuahua, a Great Dane, a pit bull, a beagle, all can be traced to wolves through DNA and through history.  That is species change over time.  It's beyond question at this point.  You could do it yourself if you wanted to.  There have been experiments done, extensive experiments on bacteria, guppies, foxes, all with the outcomes showing that you can literally change the species if you selectively breed for certain characteristics.  That is the proof.  It's iron clad.  The way scientists distinguish one species from another is when it no longer can mate with the original species it came from and produce viable offspring.  This is why we have thousands and thousands of species of beetles alone. 

The THEORY of evolution is in how that process works through natural selection.  And all you have to do to understand that theory is to ask yourself... in a snowy woods, which rabbit has a better chance at survival... the all white one, or the gray one.  The white one, obviously because it can hide from predators.  The gray will likely die before it has a chance to pass it's genes to the next rabbit, whereas the white one will survive longer, and pass on his genes to the next rabbit which will also be all white.  That's natural selection. 

Would you like me to link you to over 250,000 peer reviewed articles on the issue? 

It is only a theory without tests and pictures, but you believe that. 

It's so hard to take you seriously when you say 'it's only a theory'.  It betrays a serious lack of understanding about what a scientific theory is versus your idea that it's just some sort of guess.  The tests, the pictures, the data, the fossils, the DNA, all exist.  I can't help it if you don't want to look at it.  I can almost guarantee you, you've gotten all your information about evolution from people who reject it.  And now you reject it for the same reasons as they do.  If you talk to someone who knows what science really says about evolution, you'd probably understand it a lot more. 

There have been lots and lots of people that have seen a glimpse by way of the near death experience.  Not many have come back to say there is nothing there, I just didn't exist anywhere for those 2 minutes I was dead.

Um... there are millions of people who nearly die every year and say there was nothing there.  Its only a few that say they have NDE's.  And guess what?  The NDE's are culturally biased.  By that, I mean that a Hindu person will have a Hindu flavored NDE.  Here is a link that may help you out on this one. 

http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

Here is a brief quote from it that I think should be mentioned...

"One of the near-death experience truths is that each person integrates their near-death experience into their own pre-existing belief system."

If God wasn't real there would be a lot more starvation in this world!

But... you said God doesn't help the starving children.  Now he does?  Would you please keep your story straight?  Are you saying he picks and chooses which starving children to save?  I don't think that's all that much better, do you?  Would you think me a good parent if I found all 3 of my children starving and I had piles of food in the fridge and I only gave food to one of them? 

This is just a stupid statement on your part.  It's absolutely not in evidence at all.  You're just stating something that's categorically false here. 

I would be happy to see the children fed and if it costs me my life and the world as we know it, so be it.

Good for you.  Now realize that every time an emaciated, starving child takes his last breath, God stands over them with the capability of stopping it from happening... and does NOTHING; while you would do the exact opposite and feed every one that you could.  Now, ask yourself...  If you were standing over your son, and he was dying of hunger, while you had food, and you gave him food, are you going against what your God wants by feeding him?  After all, if God doesn't feed him, does he really want him to be fed?  Why is it good for God NOT to feed him, but good for you to feed him? 

The other possibility is that there is no God standing over that child, and that the reason it dies, is nothing more than the simple fact that, like all living things, it must consume things to survive. 

I don't think I have disapproved of myself here.
But you have disapproved of your God.  You're just scared to admit it. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on March 28, 2013, 04:02:19 AM
Like I said Screw, give yourself an example of willing yourself to belief....

Cutdog, have you read anything Screwtape said?  He is not, and has never, said that by "effort of will" a person can come to believe.  If you think he has, I would be grateful if you would quote him.

What he HAS said, is that emotional states can be brought into being by physical action.  A classic and well-dcoumented example is that if you make yourself smile, you will feel happier: the emotion follows the physical expression, when it would normally be expected to be the other way round.

So can you "will yourself" to be happy, just by thinking "I'm happy, I'm happy", as you state (consistently misrepresenting Screw's position)?  Not very likely.  Can you make yourself happy, by smiling?  Yes, you can.  Why not try it?  Find a day when you are sad, and force yourself to keep smiling.  Since personal experience is paramount to you, I know you will be keep to try it.

I look forward to hearing the results when you try what it is that screwtape is actually advocating, rather than the strawman you persist in attributing to him.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 28, 2013, 07:32:23 AM
Well maybe I did misunderstand him. But he also misunderstood me, because when I made the point that you can't control love or beliefs, he went on disagreement rampage about love and belief arent the same thing, gave me psychology study links, the whole 9 yards. And if you look more carefully, you can see all I was saying the whole time was that love and beliefs cant be controlled by will. Since I didn't get a simple,"yes, you're right", but argument and name calling like idiot, shouldn't I assume he didn't agree. When he didn't agree, I simply said name something he willed. But anyway, that's past us now because I think Screw and the rest of you understand what I was trying to say. Just to make sure though so we can move on: ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS ARE CONTROLLABLE, AND SOMETIMES THEY LEAD TO BELIEFS OR REAL LOVE. HOWEVER, WHAT WE END UP TO TRULY LOVE OR TRULY BELIEVE IS OUT OF OUR CONTROL. WE SIMPLY TAKE EXPERIENCE AND FACTS THROUGH OUR LIVES AND OUR BRAIN MAKES A RESPONSE FOR US WHETHER IT BELIEVES OR LOVES. WE DON'T HAVE A SAY. WE CAN HAVE A SAY IF WE WANT TO RESEARCH SOME INFO ON ABORTION, RELIGION, READ A BIBLE, STUDY PSYCHOLOGY, GO ON A DATE WITH A PERSON TO FIND LOVE, ETC. BUT WHEN WE'RE DONE, WE EITHER BELIEVE OR WE DON'T, WE LOVE SOMEONE, OR WE DON'T. THAT'S ALL I EVER MEANT. I POSTED THE TOPIC ABOVE FROM A PHILOSOPHY SITE ON THIS TOPIC. ITS CALLED DOXASTIC VOLUNTARISM, SO READ THAT AND GET A GOOD UNDERSTANDING WHAT I BELIEVE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE THOUGH AND ALOT OF PEOPLE DO AND DON'T. EVEN THAT BELIEF WILL BE OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. BUT READING THE TOPIC WILL NOT.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on March 28, 2013, 08:07:59 AM
Consistency theory
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Consistency_theory

I've discussed this book at length and the concept of consistency in other parts of this forum.
http://www.takebackyourbrain.com/2007/the-psychology-of-persuasion-consistency/
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 28, 2013, 08:09:03 AM
Alright I'll check it out
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Cutdogg on March 28, 2013, 08:37:36 AM
Yeah some good stuff, Screw. I see what you were talking about, but that's all about behaviors and attitudes unless I missed something. I was talking about beliefs and love which I think are different. Unless those articles go further to say they aren't any different, I think we were in agreement from beginning, just not understanding what the other was saying. Hey, and here's another good topic that conflicts with Christian beliefs that I just got off your link:

Philosophically, having choice implies the existence of free will and the antithesis of fate, chance and predestination. For a dramatic highlighting of the arbitrariness and cruelty of severely imposed and prescribed choice, see the central image of Sophie's Choice.

But the Bible claims you have to choose your belief and that God gave us free will, then in New Testament Paul says we are all predetermined, or predestined in some translations. But like the article above says, free will is opposite fate or predestination. You can't have both. Now say God is real then he obviously could make it possible for both. But if he did then he would be creating us out of love, just to end up burning us in eternity. So either way you go it doesn't add up!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 31, 2013, 06:17:58 AM


Quote
You're fully well aware that your god does nothing, and will never, ever do anything.  This is why you're making up magical woo to try to justify your god's inaction.  There was none of this "working from the inside out" thing in the bible.  Funny how god's actions changes whenever we become better at recording and examining things...

I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on March 31, 2013, 07:15:25 AM
I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.

This is true, you did say that you dont believe the bible and that you pieced together several religions to create your own because the gods that were handed to you wouldnt accept you as a lesbian. You were indeed open about it. However, you use the bible in your arguments, probably as a remnant of being brought up around Xtians. But, seeing that you made your own religion, surely you can see that religions are man-made. You are the perfect example of this and admit to it. Why would any of us believe your version of god over anyone elses when you admit to creating yours? That is the point. Also you say you see god's work, but then out of the same mouth say it would be bad for god to do stuff because then people die (this is what you plucked from the bible). Your god is as inconsistent as your story is and even though you make him up you still give him terrible qualities. Why is that?

Also, earlier you answered my question of what questions you made your god up to answer. Your answer was evolution. Evolution is an observable fact. Your god should no longer exist now that you know (I assume you did research from reputable sources since some have directed you to them). If it does still exist, it just shows that you are hanging onto it as some sort of security blanket, which isnt uncommon. But please recognize it for what it is. When you let go of the security blanket (or unlock your shackles), youre able to be free. I urge you to be free.  ;D
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 31, 2013, 07:45:27 AM
Quote
Suppose you'd cut him off - and he'd taken to mugging people to get money to buy pills for himself.  Would you have continued with the "doing nothing" approach?   Washed your hands of him and kept your fingers crossed that someone else would sort him out?  Or would you, as a loving parent, have not just "cut him off", period, but done everything within your power to help him?

I was never worried that he wouldn't find his way. I know him.  I knew a little tough love was what he needed.  I also knew if I kept supporting him I was supporting his habit.  If God helps us now He would be doing the same thing.  Enabling us to continue to tolerate Greed.  Tough love only works in parallel to sweet love.  What I am saying here is all the sweet love made the tough love work.  Children that are cut off and find their way into desperation, do not know much sweet love.  This is between a mother and son, and his behavior only hurt us, not the whole world.  Thank God!  I only have one child, God has 7 billion and he loves us all.  Since God is intelligent enough to create the planets and man, I will have faith in His decision making.

Sorry, I can't see the answer to my question in your response there - can you point it out for me please?


Quote
If your son was starving to death, would you feed him, or would you let him die?  God lets them die.

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

Cool.  So we shouldn't feed the starving, because by doing so we are keeping them from god.

To feed the starving is either a Good Act, or an Evil Act.  You now seem to be saying that your god does not feed them because it gets them to a better place, and this is therefore a Good Act.  So why is it a Good Act when WE feed them, and a Bad Act if we do not?

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".

So why did you try to thwart your god's plan by getting him OFF the drugs?  Why did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

To reiterate my question: why is a Good Act for your god, an Evil Act when we try to address the same issues, and vice versa?

Whether or not my son decided to turn to violence was his decision to make.  If I could've made it for him I would, but as an adult he was responsible for his actions not me.  I taught him what he needed to know, after that it's on him. 

It definitely was not God's plan for my son to get on drugs. I don't think God's plan is about the individual, but the human race as a WHOLE.

I have already said several times before here that I don't think God doing something is a bad thing, I'm saying that the human race as a WHOLE would be better off if we took care of this problem by being more courageous and putting an end to the politics that lead to poverty by coming together and peacefully protesting the status quo. I'm sorry I can not remember the gentleman's name, but I like what he said. The human race is about to evolve, our environment requires it, we either become like the locusts leaving destruction, or become more like the honey bee, living in unison with the planet and each other.  It is up to us, but we need more honey bees, right now the locusts are running the show.  This was a program on either Free Speech TV or LINK TV, both are a great source for true media.  It was on Link that I was introduced to Dr. Richard Wolfe, he has a website if you want to check it out, he is an economist with a cure for capitalism.  I don't know his religion, he didn't talk about that, but his ideas make a lot of sense. Here's the address http://rdwolff.com/.

Your anger towards God is completely understandable. My wish for you is freedom from that anger, it's not good for your health.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on March 31, 2013, 08:17:26 AM
I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.

This is true, you did say that you dont believe the bible and that you pieced together several religions to create your own because the gods that were handed to you wouldnt accept you as a lesbian. You were indeed open about it. However, you use the bible in your arguments, probably as a remnant of being brought up around Xtians. But, seeing that you made your own religion, surely you can see that religions are man-made. You are the perfect example of this and admit to it. Why would any of us believe your version of god over anyone elses when you admit to creating yours? That is the point. Also you say you see god's work, but then out of the same mouth say it would be bad for god to do stuff because then people die (this is what you plucked from the bible). Your god is as inconsistent as your story is and even though you make him up you still give him terrible qualities. Why is that?

Also, earlier you answered my question of what questions you made your god up to answer. Your answer was evolution. Evolution is an observable fact. Your god should no longer exist now that you know (I assume you did research from reputable sources since some have directed you to them). If it does still exist, it just shows that you are hanging onto it as some sort of security blanket, which isnt uncommon. But please recognize it for what it is. When you let go of the security blanket (or unlock your shackles), youre able to be free. I urge you to be free.  ;D

I do not remember being asked what questions I made God up to answer.  I have said that evolution but more so that a Big Bang does not satisfy my curiosity as to our origins.  That I believe such Amazingness could only be achieved with an intelligent source.  All evolution proves is that the ancestors had a lot to learn about God.


I didn't create God, God created me.  God's breath is the spirit that gives us life.  Without a spirit we are not alive, we are just the elements that compose our bodies.  Have you ever stood by a person's side as they release their spirit?  I have more times than I wish I had to, but you can feel their spirit briefly right after their body stops.  It is truly a spiritual experience if you let it be.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on March 31, 2013, 08:40:02 AM
You admitted to piecing together your god from several versions of other peoples versions of gods, thus you created your god.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on March 31, 2013, 12:07:20 PM


Quote
You're fully well aware that your god does nothing, and will never, ever do anything.  This is why you're making up magical woo to try to justify your god's inaction.  There was none of this "working from the inside out" thing in the bible.  Funny how god's actions changes whenever we become better at recording and examining things...

I have said I see God working all around us, I have said I don't believe in the bible, and yet you still say stuff like this.  Nothing like ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.   Can't make fun of what I really said so let's twist it around so it sounds silly.  Good job.

I should note that what I said earlier was before I caught on to the whole "making up my own religion" thing.

Doesn't change the fact that this god does nothing, or that we're dealing with a lot of magical woo to make this god sound more profound than he (I assume this god is male) really is.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: JeffPT on March 31, 2013, 10:56:38 PM
Whether or not my son decided to turn to violence was his decision to make.  If I could've made it for him I would, but as an adult he was responsible for his actions not me.  I taught him what he needed to know, after that it's on him. 

And where does God fit into that?  If it's your sons decision whether or not to turn to violence, then it's also his decision to get off drugs.  There is no need to explain it with God.  You've satisfactorily eliminated the need for any sort of supernatural explanation.   

It definitely was not God's plan for my son to get on drugs.
How can you say it wasn't God's plan for your son to get on drugs?  How do you know that? 

I don't think God's plan is about the individual, but the human race as a WHOLE.
So childhood starvation, drug addition, AIDS fit into God's plan as a whole?  Gotcha. 

But what do you mean God's plan is about the human race as a whole?  What would be beneficial to the entire human race?  Maybe making water more plentiful?  Food more plentiful?  Abolishing cancer?  Getting rid of AIDS?  None of those seem to be on top of his priority list.  So how can you sit there with a straight face and say that God's plan is for the human race as a whole?  You're just wrong about it.  It's not possible for you to be right here.  Unless God isn't good; in which case, I guess it's possible. 

Bottom line.  God's plan includes awful, terrible things, and you will have us believe that those things are good for us as a whole.  I think that's disgusting. 

I have already said several times before here that I don't think God doing something is a bad thing
So by definition, if God acts or does not act, it's a good thing?  Is that what you will have us believe? 

I'm saying that the human race as a WHOLE would be better off if we took care of this problem by being more courageous and putting an end to the politics that lead to poverty by coming together and peacefully protesting the status quo.
Nobody is going to disagree with you here Junebug.  We want problems fixed as well.  For the atheist, the fate of everyone lies solely on the people of this world, but the problem is that for you, there is a second option.  And that second option has the power to solve these problems with the snap of his fingers.  So why is it so difficult for you to understand that if this second option that you believe exists, does nothing at all to help the problems, then that might be a bit of an indication that you're making the whole thing up and there really is no second option?  You keep going back to the people, its our problem, we need to fix it, etc, etc, but you never acknowledge the second option in that situation. 

What I want to know is... why don't you fucking HATE your God?  I don't think your God is real, so I don't have to hate him, but I do not understand, not for the life of me, why you would ever worship a god that presides over this world and allows the shit to take place here in front of him.  I firmly believe that if you were not brainwashed to think that God is good, you would judge his actions the same way as you would judge every other action and you'd see where we are coming from here.     

The human race is about to evolve, our environment requires it, we either become like the locusts leaving destruction, or become more like the honey bee, living in unison with the planet and each other.

Every living thing, including the human race, has been evolving for a lot longer than you can possibly fathom.  Our environment is changing. It's always been changing, but it's a slow process, just like evolution.  That's what pressures things to evolve.  As the environment changes, some random mutations expressed in the DNA of the living thing allows a better than average chance at survival and an increased likelihood to reach reproduction age. 

What do you think is the solution to this problem?  Putting our hands together, bowing our heads in unison and telepathically asking a fictional deity to work things out for us?  Or rolling up our sleeves, casting off the ancient superstitions of our ancestors, and making things better for ourselves?  It seems you think the second one is the better option.  I agree.  So again, where is there room for God?  There isn't any.  Because there is no God.  You've made it up.   

It is up to us, but we need more honey bees, right now the locusts are running the show. 
You make it all out to be greed, but there is so much more to it than that. 

But why are the locusts running the show?  Where is God?  Why isn't God helping?  Maybe because God isn't real? 

Your anger towards God is completely understandable. My wish for you is freedom from that anger, it's not good for your health.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.

We aren't angry at God because we don't believe God exists, Junebug.  We just can't understand why you aren't angry.  You seem to believe in him, so what is your problem?  God stood by as each and every pill went into your son's mouth, didn't he?  He stands by as thousands and thousands of children die in agony every day.  You've said that you've watched people die.  Have you ever watched a child starve to death?  Ever seen the mother of a child who starved to death?  You'd step in to stop it if you could, right?  You worship a being that has the power to do exactly that, but does nothing at all.  NOTHING.  What, do you picture God crying or something when you think about it?  As if that makes it better?

Personally, I get angry at the stupidity of the whole thing.  It's like your (religious people in general) brain is not working properly.  You don't think intelligently.  You don't look at the repercussions of your beliefs, and the logical contradictions you face in it.  You just like feeling that it's there and that's what guides you first and foremost.  I don't respect that.  Not a single bit.  It's the entire problem with religion in the world.   You want to give God credit for the good stuff, but no blame for the bad.  You can't have it that way.  It just doesn't work out.       

BTW, with regard to your post about how evolution and the big bang theory don't satisfy your curiosity about our origins, since when does the truth give a crap about whether or not it meets with your approval? 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 01, 2013, 01:20:20 AM
Your anger towards God is completely understandable. My wish for you is freedom from that anger, it's not good for your health.  I mean that in the most sincerest way.

I'm not angry at anyone, little Junebug - least of all something that doesn't exist.  I'm not angry at the Easter Bunny either, and I have just as much evidence that THAT little fantasy exists.  What I'm trying to establish is what you actually believe, because it seems to change with every question you answer.

In response to us asking why your god didn't feed the starving, when he has the means and the ability, YOU SAID:

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

So you are on record as saying that death is a GOOD thing, because - in your view - it transports people faster to be with god.

So given that is the case, why should I feed the starving?  Why should I help the next person in want that I see?  If it gets them faster to god - to somewhere "much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED" - then     why should I be so evil as to feed them?  Better surely to let them die and speed them to the paradise you are sure exists?

You also didn't actually answer my question about your son.  You waffled around the issue, but didn't actually answer the direct question I asked.  You picked up on one aspect, to avoid answering the main point - so I've removed the diversion, so it is clear exactly what I am asking.

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".  So....(w)hy did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Brakeman on April 01, 2013, 05:38:08 AM
Here is a quick comedic clip of what life would be like if christians really did believe in heaven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMaK6k4oZ20
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: greatful on April 02, 2013, 04:52:11 PM
What I have noticed on this site, forum, or whatever, is most of the time the pros and the cons are not speaking the same language, even though we both speaking English. Usually atheist think in terms of science and believer think in terms of the Bible. What I would like to continue here is an honest discussion. So what I'm doing is changing this discussion, that has pretty much died out along with most on this site, into not overly complicating this stuff as we often do.
If some one isn't from America but is in America they would be what? Alien. If a being is on the earth but isn't from the earth they are called what? Alien. So if God made the earth but isn't from the earth and appears here science would call him an alien or even better an extraterrestrial. Same with the angels and other heavenly beings. Now if God had a spacecraft, so to speak, like it is described in Ezekiel 1:4-28 and other places in the Bible, science would call the craft an UFO and God an alien/ extraterrestrial.
Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD
9.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned .
Romans 11:33 KJV
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
1 Corinthians 1:27 KJV
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

The Bible describes things different than science. The Bible calls these creatures cherubims, angels, heavenly bodies and many additional ways. Science would call God, His angels, and other heavenly beings, extraterrestrial. Would they speak as we do? Well, they probably can but being extra they would probably communicate other ways like telepathically(prayer). With out time would science fully understand these aliens and their ways? Would these extraterrestrial be 100% visible all the time? Probably not. Would the supreme of all these extraterrestrial beings even have a form unless need be. This is a description in the most generic form but just a start. Further evidence of this way of description is the three books of Enoch. This book was written, translated, whatever about 300 B.C. Though it is from much earlier and is probably the earliest text. Enoch was the great grandson of Adam and the great grandfather of Noah. Before God just took him to heaven without dying because he already spent so much time with God anyway. He was taken on a trip to heaven/ outerspace and told secrets of the Universe. Enoch told his son (Methuselah) what happen up there as Methuselah wrote it down. Also in this book besides UFOs and extraterrestrial is that the earth is round and it revolves around the sun. It wasn't discovered that this was so by science until what 1400s. The pharisees would not allow just anybody to read this book. They kept it from the people probably because they thought they would not be able to handle it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on April 02, 2013, 05:48:21 PM
Welcome greatful,

Youll find the problem with your post is that you assume the existence of god, whether as diety or alien is irrellevent if you cant support its existence. You can call it superman if you like, it doesnt matter.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: greatful on April 02, 2013, 11:46:57 PM
I can support it my friend. Here is only a small part of support. The Book of Enoch is an ancient Hebrew text that describes the round Earth revolving around the Sun. It also maps out the calendar and makes up for leap year, the layers of outer space, astronomical secrets, and the phases of the moon. It was part of the Old Testament. It was found also in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which of course matched. It is easily found by google search Book of Enoch PDF. It was quoted from in the New Testament, in Jude. But there is a whole lot more in it then just these things. The point was that this book was translated around 200 B.C. with this type of scientific info. earlier than the 1400s A.D. Which it was supposed to have been info. from God himself and other celestial beings (angels) which was verified later by science to be the truth of how our universe works. It speaks of God's craft (space craft so to speak) even more so than the Book of Ezekiel 1:4-28. Also from what I'm watching on TV, The History channels, Nat. Geo., The Science channel, etc... science and the Bible are coming together. Science has now been proving the possibilities of the Bible. Example, The God Gene, The Shroud of Turin, What the force is that holds the nucleus of the Atom together(which is in the Bible), How the Red Sea was parted,the almost discovery of Noah's Ark. The Book of Enoch will blow your mind.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 03, 2013, 03:58:12 AM
Book of Enoch.  Cool.  Its scientifically accurate for sure.

"...the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives..."

The moon rides on a wind-driven chariot as welll.  Oh, and the moon gives her own light.

"And the sun and the stars bring in all the years exactly, so that they do not advance or delay their position by a single day unto eternity; but complete the years with perfect justice in 364 days."

You know, I thought that this year felt exceptionally long.  Those pesky aliens!

I was also impressed about the doors that winds come through - didya know that depending on which door is opened, the winds will be good or bad?

"And from thence I went towards the north to the ends of the earth, and there I saw a great and glorious device at the ends of the whole earth. And here I saw three portals of heaven open in the heaven: through each of them proceed north winds: when they blow there is cold, hail, frost, snow, dew, and rain. And out of one portal they blow for good: but when they blow through the other two portals, it is with violence and affliction on the earth, and they blow with violence."

Is it aliens that decide which door to open?

Or is the book of Enoch, perhaps, just the ramblings of yet another ancient goat-herder, who had a good eye to observe things, and filled in the gaps with woolly ramblings and mystical mumbo-jumbo that - two thousand years later - people who want to believe in aliens take as indisputable evidence?  No matter how many twisted apologetics they require?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on April 03, 2013, 02:14:08 PM
There's just something about "god is a space alien" that strikes me as even goofier than the conventional interpretation of the bible.  I'm not sure what it is... something about replacing nonsense with "updated" nonsense, I guess.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on April 03, 2013, 02:25:41 PM
There's just something about "god is a space alien" that strikes me as even goofier than the conventional interpretation of the bible.  I'm not sure what it is... something about replacing nonsense with "updated" nonsense, I guess.

On the surface, I agree.  However, harken back to the great debate between KCrady and Fran, wherein Fran claimed the resurrection was real and KCrady Anfauglir said it was more likely jesus H was a space alien.  One reason being life exists on earth, therefore could ostensibly exist outside earth.

At least an alien isn't "outside time and space" or any of the other crazy things theists have to make up to explain why god won't show himself.

However, greatful does come off as... nuts.



edit - corrected.  Anfauglir, not kcrady.  Though, kcrady does mention aliens a lot.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: greatful on April 03, 2013, 03:22:17 PM
Yes, it makes it even more intriguing that a goat herder's description of his experiences were proved possible by science and also tested at a smaller scale. So not just by theory but by experimental demonstrations.The problem is that science lacks the ability to have a space craft that can perform this experiment at full scale but is getting there. It was confirmed possible by Einstein's theory of time dilation. If there would have been a scientist around, Enoch could have got him or her to write the book scientifically. But then we wouldn't be able to understand it ourselves on an individual basis because it would have been like reading a book based on physics and never had taken one physics class. Resulting only in scientist being able to enjoy the book. The Enoch calendar is based on the spring and autumn equinoxes and the summer and winter solstices, also tied to astronomy. It had different purposes than the World calendar(Gregorian calendar). It's purposes are to keep aligned the seasons, Hebrew holidays, days of the week landing constantly, and the prediction of the life of Jesus Christ and it landed it perfect. By the way it did compensate for the leap year just at different times according to the cycles of the moon which determine it. "An unexpected feature of the 364-day year is that it results in an average year length even more accurate than our modern Gregorian calendar. The actual length of the year is now 365.2422 days. The Gregorian calendar averages 365.2425 days which is much closer than the former Julian calendar which averaged 365.25 days. But if 52 weeks are intercalated every 293 years into the calendar of Enoch, then it averages 365.2423 days which is extremely accurate. It is very surprising that such accuracy can be obtained by intercalating an entire week at a time over so short a time period. In contrast, our Gregorian calendar intercalates one day at a time over a 400-year cycle and achieves less long-term accuracy. A 364-day calendar based on an intercalated Enoch calendar has been proposed." Pratt, John P., "Mapping Time," American Mathematical Monthly (Jan. 2000), pp. 92-99, (section 6). They still have to make adjustments to the modern calendar to line back up to the equinoxes and solstice, "On time scales of thousands of years, the Gregorian calendar falls behind the astronomical seasons because the slowing down of the Earth's rotation makes each day slightly longer over time." Wikipedia. Now, how can a caveman with some goats be smart enough or observant enough to be more accurate than modern scientist without some extraterrestrial/ celestial(angels) help, input? I have to give it to old Enoch he did a good job describing it with his limited experiences and without ever seeing a machine, other than a chariot and a camp fire, let alone a jet aircraft. A caveman really knew by himself enough to take in consideration that the earth's rotation slows?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on April 03, 2013, 03:38:06 PM
Paragraphs, please.  I simply cannot read through those great big blocks of text, and so I have no idea if you're writing anything interesting enough to respond to.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: JeffPT on April 03, 2013, 03:43:07 PM
The Book of Enoch is an ancient Hebrew text that describes the round Earth revolving around the Sun. 

I have to question whether or not you've read the book of Enoch yourself, or just been fed this nonsense by other Christians who really want evidence but can't find any.  BTW, the Book of Enoch is only canonical in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church per wikipedia.  Are you a member of those?

Chapter 18 verse 2 from the book of Enoch...

"I surveyed the stone which supports the corners of the earth."

How many corners does a round earth have? 

Chapter 18 verse 6

"I saw the winds which turn the sky, which cause the orb of the sun and of all the stars to set; and over the earth I saw the winds which support the clouds."

The winds don't turn the sky, nor do they cause the sun and all the stars to set.  The wind also doesn't support the clouds, it simply moves them around.  They wouldn't fall if the wind was gone. 

Chapter 71  speaking about the sun...
"And thus it goes in and out, neither slackening nor resting; but running on in its chariot by day and by night. It shines with a seventh portion of light from the moon; (78) but the dimensions of both are equal"

A chariot pulls the sun?  The sun is the same size as the moon?  And gives off 1/7th of it's light? It's actually 400,000 times more bright.   See this website... http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/astrophysics/photometry_magnitude.html

How do you get to flat out ignore this stuff and still claim that the Book of Enoch is special?  Why do you think you can do that?  This is factual evidence that the author was NOT visited by an angel with supernatural knowledge over his own.  It's iron clad evidence.  Why can't you see that?  What goes through your mind when you read this absolute proof that you're position about the Book of Enoch is wrong? 

Also from what I'm watching on TV, The History channels, Nat. Geo., The Science channel, etc... science and the Bible are coming together.

Ratings make TV shows go.  Pandering to Christians in a Christian country is a good move for those channels, regardless of whether or not there is any actual truth to what they're saying.  Science is NOT coming together with the bible.  The book of Enoch isn't even in the bible. 

Science has now been proving the possibilities of the Bible. Example, The God Gene, The Shroud of Turin, What the force is that holds the nucleus of the Atom together(which is in the Bible), How the Red Sea was parted,the almost discovery of Noah's Ark. The Book of Enoch will blow your mind.
 

Please dude.  The Book of Enoch is shit.  Shroud of Turin was debunked years ago.  The new information came from Catholic scientists who have everything to gain by 'proving' the shroud is older than it is, and the dates they put it at were... get this... within a 700 year range.  The carbon dating done on the shroud by 3 DIFFERENT places put the shroud in the late 1200's early 1300's.  Within 100 years accuracy.  The Red Sea parting, and 'almost' finding Noah's Ark?  Good lord.  They don't help your case at all. 

I'm with Anfauglir.  It's the ramblings of ancient goat herders who knew very little. 

And if you think some astrological observations were only possible back then if they had angels telling them stuff, why don't you ask the Mayans, who's calendar was far more accurate and they did it in 5th century BCE.  The book of Enoch, most experts agree, was written (earliest) around 300 BC again per wikipedia. 

It's unbelievable that people fall for this stuff.  But you won't admit it will you.  I've known too many Christians to think that facts and evidence will sway your thinking. 

BTW, it's 'grateful' not 'greatful'. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: greatful on April 03, 2013, 04:21:25 PM
I don't understand physics, But I don't call it nonsense. My lack of understanding doesn't make it not true. But if I research it then it will become more real to me. If I learn it will become even more so.
1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I'm not really calling God a space alien. I'm just trying to put it into different terms. Bring another way to think about it other than the traditional church ways. God (YHWH)(I AM) knew people would have a problem with him not showing himself, so he did. The last straw for the Pharisees was that Jesus called himself I AM. They couldn't comprehend it so they killed him.
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad .57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was , I am.
John 14:9 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seenthe Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
So, God being the good leader and understanding God he is, He came here and put himself in skin, lead by example and from the front. I agree what kind of God would not come here and show himself? Well, he has visited many time and to many people in the Bible. If you want the examples let me know there is just a lot of them.


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Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: shnozzola on April 03, 2013, 04:47:39 PM
The human race is about to evolve, our environment requires it, we either become like the locusts leaving destruction, or become more like the honey bee, living in unison with the planet and each other.  It is up to us, but we need more honey bees, right now the locusts are running the show. 

I don't mean to derail, but with the references to honey bees and evolution together, I had to say something.  Honey bees are in real trouble.  This past winter coming into the almond pollination in Calif. has seen the worst yet for colony collapse.  The honey bees  [whether it's  neonicitinoid pesticides like most believe, or mites, or changing landscapes (less flowers), or the stress of commercial transportation - really, people are grasping at straws, it is almost certainly these nicotine insecticides]  are not evolving too well, although solitary bees do more work than given credit for.  Good article here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/02/176037645/the-buzz-on-bees-why-many-colonies-are-collapsing

- sorry, carry on.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: sun_king on April 03, 2013, 05:34:30 PM
Greatful, you cannot prove the book by quoting from same the book. If that logic is used, we are muggles, Thor is in exile and probably the Umbrella Corporation is running the world.

If I say Optimus Prime: "Sometimes even the wisest of men and machines can be in error" Episode: SOS Dinobots, it DOES NOT mean that Autobots are real.

So please stop quoting the book, it accomplishes nothing.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: greatful on April 03, 2013, 06:46:28 PM
JEFFPT,
    No I'm not of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church. I didn't really know I needed to be. Yes, I read Three of the books of Enoch. I chose greatful because it is a play on words, not really, but I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and He is great and I'm grateful. Also knowing a little more about document dating, The so called experts date later if there is a prophecy that has been fullfilled in it that in the writing was wrote prior to, unless it be Nostradamus.
    "Ethiopia is one of the oldest locations of human existence known to scientists."Wiki. "A substantial population of Ethiopian Jews resided in Ethiopia until the 1980s but have since gradually emigrated to Israel."Wiki. The book of Enoch was once apart of the Ancient Hebrew Bible and "The Book of Enoch is an ancient Jewish religious work." Wiki. The Ethiopian have had it from ancient days and didn't get rid of it like the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Jesus Christ and was accurate. If I don't believe and can't receive it lets get rid of it. Just because their messiah didn't come how they expected. Little do they know he comes twice. The Enoch books have been used and referenced by many religions, as you probably read, and was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I know a lot of Christians and they don't even know there is a book of Enoch much less read it. Enoch didn't understand fully what he experienced just had it written down. After all he was just a goat herder previously referred to as.
    It was written to me earlier that I believe what I believe and that is it. Well, what I believe didn't come easy. I went to about every church I could find and studied their beliefs and almost all religions. I studied the Koran, went to a Catholic school (though I'm not Catholic), Eastern meditation and religions, Jewish meditation and religions, Buddhism, Latter Day Saints, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness,Christianity, Science, Darwin, and etc... Not only did I read and Study these but I also tried them out. I was in the Navy so I was able to travel the world and the US. and experience the cultures that went with them. What I found that they all had in common was Jesus in some form or another, expect maybe Darwinism but I never looked). I did my research before making a decision have you? I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time. I could give you another Bible scripture to why it isn't always instantaneously but I won't.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: greatful on April 03, 2013, 06:48:35 PM
sun_king where did I quote a book with the same book?
 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: shnozzola on April 03, 2013, 07:15:11 PM
Quote
It was written to me earlier that I believe what I believe and that is it. Well, what I believe didn't come easy.

Greatful,
            Mind if I copy and use that quote?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: sun_king on April 03, 2013, 09:00:26 PM
sun_king where did I quote a book with the same book?

Your posts #221 and #230 has text from the Bible. Or were they put there randomly for decoration?

Wait a minute, did you say Buddha has something in common with Christ???

And BTW, I did say "Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth"

... waiting.

I also asked the milk jug to give me a new Ferrari.

... waiting.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 04, 2013, 03:16:47 AM
I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time. I could give you another Bible scripture to why it isn't always instantaneously but I won't.

(yawn).  Once again, this challenge.  Sorry, grate, but I did that years ago, and I'm still waiting.  Now to me, it looks like there is nobody actually there to answer.  But go ahead, give me your bible verse.  But make sure that it tallies with a Christ that wants to get to know me, and loves me, and wants a relationship with me.  Because anyone who wants those three things, AND who has the power of a god, would be straight back to me with a response.

Also interested to know how Jesus the space alien would know I'd said it in the first place.  Do they have all of us bugged all the time?  Is the delayed response due to the time it takes for the message to be passed from sureillance crews up to field operations?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 04, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
.....harken back to the great debate between KCrady and Fran, wherein Fran claimed the resurrection was real and KCrady said it was more likely jesus H was a space alien.  One reason being life exists on earth, therefore could ostensibly exist outside earth.....

Actually, that was me and Fran.  But I did get a warm fuzzy feeling from being mistaken for the Great KC!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: naemhni on April 04, 2013, 06:02:30 AM
I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time.

Two questions...

1)  How much time?  If you can't at least give an estimate, then your challenge is meaningless.  I might as well be saying the same thing to a rock, because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, right?

2)  You are asking me to put my entire worldview on the line, and that being the case, I expect you to be willing to do the same.  So I, in turn, offer you this challenge: If I accept your challenge and Jesus Christ does not reveal himself to me, you agree to become an atheist.  If you do not accept my counterproposal, then your challenge is meaningless, and I discard it.  It would be functionally equivalent to you flipping a coin and saying, "Heads I win, tails doesn't count."
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on April 04, 2013, 07:36:08 AM
greatful,

why dont you introduce yourself in the introduction forum, that way you can tell us what you believe so we dont have to assume or argue agaist strawmen. You see we never get two theists who believe the same thing, for example your usage of Enoch usually isnt used and it opens different doors like the ones that have been addressed in this thread we normally dont get to use (using Enoch to falsify your claim of it being scientifically accurate).

Also, you may want to engage us to see if any of us... or most of us actually USED to be Christians instead of engaging us as if we have no  idea of your holy books and the tenants of your religion. I mean, to question whether we "asked Jesus to reveal himself" to us when many of us have spent decades in various churches doing exactly that, just smacks of literally no research being done on your target audience.

Once attaining the knowledge on your target audience (us atheists) you can then get at the meat of the issue by finding out why we view your holy book as any other work of fiction. In turn you can provide evidence as to why we should take your book more seriously and possibly treat it as if it were non-fiction.

 8)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on April 04, 2013, 07:45:37 AM
I tire of people who claim in one breath that it's easy to connect with god, then excuse themselves by claiming that if we don't connect, we're just not doing it right.  The more you explain how you tried to connect with god, the more and more difficult it suddenly becomes to do so, and the less and less sincere you must have been in order to fail.  God sure does work hard to make sure that we can't get to know him.  It's almost as if he doesn't exist at all.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on April 04, 2013, 08:13:48 AM
I'm not really calling God a space alien. I'm just trying to put it into different terms.

Now that you've said this, I have no idea what your point is.  You talk about god being an alien, and now he's not.  You are not communicating clearly.  Your point is incoherent. 

God (YHWH)(I AM) knew people would have a problem with him not showing himself, so he did.

That is debatable.  Even if he did then, he's stopped.  Why?

The last straw for the Pharisees was that Jesus called himself I AM. They couldn't comprehend it so they killed him.

No they didn't.  The Romans killed him. 

And if they could not comprehend him, how was that their fault?  If yhwh is omnipotent, then explaining himself in a convincing manner should not be impossible.  If he really wanted them to understand, they would have.

Besides, that interpretation of the relationship between jesus H and the Pharisees is probably incorrect. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees#Pharisees_and_Christianity
Quote
Rather than an accurate account of Jesus' relationship to Pharisees and other Jewish leaders, this view holds that the Gospels instead reflect the competition and conflict between early Christians and Pharisees for leadership of the Jews, or reflects Christian attempts to distance themselves from Jews in order to present themselves in a more sympathetic (and benign) light to Romans and other Gentiles

Well, he has visited many time and to many people in the Bible.

Allegedly. 

And where has he been since then?  Why is god not permanently visible on a throne in the sky?  Why is he so coy now?

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on April 04, 2013, 08:19:09 AM
Actually, that was me and Fran. 

Doh!  A zillion pardons. 

I would swear KC made an alien argument at some point around here...
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on April 04, 2013, 11:35:23 AM
greatful ,

Could you please learn how to use spacing and paragraphs?  It's hard to read a long post when all the words are brunched together.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: JeffPT on April 05, 2013, 10:29:23 PM
Yes, I read Three of the books of Enoch.

Yet I don't see a single admonition that you were wrong about it.  Did you not read closely?  Did you skip over the parts that were borderline mentally retarded and just focus on the parts that loosely correlate with scientific knowledge that many people had back in those times?  Why did you not comment about the passages I quoted?  Do you just think... 'well, yeah some of it is pretty whacko, but these other parts over here really give credit to what I'm saying'.  Do you see how nutty that is?  The fact that the author says Uriel the angel gave him all this knowledge is completely invalidated the very second you see something stupid like 'a chariot pulls the sun across the sky'.  It's a huge loss for you.  Are you blind to that fact?  You can no longer claim with any seriousness that an angel gave him that information.  You just can't. 

I chose greatful because it is a play on words, not really, but I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and He is great and I'm grateful.

Can we just stick with the truth please?  Grateful is a very commonly misspelled word.  You misspelled it.  Lying here doesn't help your case.  It makes you look very Christian. 

Also knowing a little more about document dating, The so called experts date later if there is a prophecy that has been fullfilled in it that in the writing was wrote prior to, unless it be Nostradamus.

When we don't know who wrote something or when it was written, that is a pretty safe thing to do, is it not?  If you ran into a book in the library that told you all about World War II, you'd assume it was written after WWII, wouldn't you?  Does that seem wrong?  Who in their right mind would claim it was written before WWII?  Why do you think the book of Enoch should be treated differently? 

The Ethiopian have had it from ancient days and didn't get rid of it like the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Jesus Christ and was accurate.
Can you point out where in the Book of Enoch is mentions Jesus Christ? 

The Enoch books have been used and referenced by many religions, as you probably read, and was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with Jesus.  They were Jewish scrolls about Jewish life during the time period around which Jesus (if he existed at all) lived.  Some OT stuff was there as well, but nothing about Jesus. 

I know a lot of Christians and they don't even know there is a book of Enoch much less read it.
Because it's got nothing to do with Christians.  It's an ancient Jewish work. 

It was written to me earlier that I believe what I believe and that is it. Well, what I believe didn't come easy. I went to about every church I could find and studied their beliefs and almost all religions.
That's nice.  Did you ever stop to consider that maybe there's no God after all, and all of those different religions that you've studied are equal versions of untruth?  That maybe... just maybe... people WANT there to be some sort of deity out there watching over them and loving them, when in reality, there is no such thing? 

What I found that they all had in common was Jesus in some form or another
You mean some sort of part human thing that embodied an ideal for the believer?  You see greatful, people worship the ideal of Jesus, not the actuality of him.  Just like all religions.  They pick some sort of charismatic figure like Mohammed, Buddha, Hercules, Jesus, etc, and they say, 'yes, look at him. If we could all just be like him' and instead of saying you want to be good, you say you want to 'be like Jesus'.  It's your personification of goodness.  It has nothing to do with truth, but it has everything to do with giving yourself something to aspire to.  The atheist wants to be good too; we just don't put a person with as if someone is the embodiment of good. 

expect maybe Darwinism but I never looked.
The idea that Darwinism is some sort of religious belief is ridiculous. 

I did my research before making a decision have you?
Yes, but I also asked the question of whether or not God is real first.  I think you skipped that part. 

I challenge you to simply say in the air out loud Jesus Christ if you are real reveal yourself to me and show me the truth. Now, give it a little time. I could give you another Bible scripture to why it isn't always instantaneously but I won't.

You're not the first person that's asked this of us.  Most of us, at some point, have done it.  When I did it, I felt really stupid.  Like I was talking to myself, which I actually was.  I'd like you to show me proof that Jesus actually responds to you when you do it though.  And proof that rules out the possibility that something else couldn't have done it or that it was simply natural occurrences. 

But I've said this before... this is a trap.  It's a mental trap, greatful.  It forces the mind to see what it wants to see.  If you WANT to find Jesus, and you ask to find Jesus, your mind will find it.  You'll start thinking of that voice in your head as Jesus.  You'll start to see mundane, every-day things that happen to be in your favor as evidence that Jesus is working for you.  And when you ask, but don't find it, either A: you have to wait longer or B: you're doing it wrong and Jesus won't talk to you, which just makes you want to try harder to find Jesus.  The problem is that I know there is a C: that Jesus isn't real.  That's the third option that you, in all your study, seem to have skipped right over.  Instead of saying "Is God real?" you started with "which version of God is real?".  Fundamental error on your part.     
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on April 06, 2013, 09:50:19 AM
Rather than taking the time to quote each one individually, I want to just post a general response. 

Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.  I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels hosted by reputable scientist, and they only deepen my beliefs.  INstead of explaining the holes in the theory you insult my intelligence. I may think you're stupid for buying into those theories and not Creation, but that is not how I feel. There are plenty of college grads that believe in God, I suppose they are dumb as well?  Not everybody is unintelligent that believes in God. There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released.  God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace. Religion is an obstacle that has brought man further from God. Just a few days ago I was watching a religious program called "The Supernatural." This guy claimed to have went to Heaven under a trance and received wisdom from Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah, and Moses. Needless to say it'll cost you $40 to hear what they had to say! What a Hypocrite! Not one of the programs I've seen so far refrain from begging for money! Sure I'm sure some of it gets to the needy, but you and I both know where a lot of it ends up!Oh man, people out there by the hundreds taking money from people with pictures of starving kids, it sickens my stomach. Well enough about that. Sorry.

I am here solely out of the kindness of my heart and to share my personal experiences with you. As far as what you call Spag, let me say this, I am proud to be a Spagette! It takes a lot of courage to stand up to religious hogwash, you Atheist know this too well. Where I differ from you is that I see it as false doctrine and decided to know God on a personal level instead of writing the Ancient belief off.

There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.

Omnipotence? I do not know the extinct of God's power. I know it's much more than my own. Never thought about it much until I started talking in this forum. It is possible to me that there are fundamental "laws of the universe" that even God must follow. I'm sure I'll get a lot of negative remarks on that one, but since it's my spag, I can do what I want! I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator. The religions have twisted mankind's understanding of God by following the teachings of  dishonest men. Once man figured out it was a good way to make a living we were screwed! It is my wish to spread God's Love and undo,if just a small segment, of what bad religion has done to society.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: shnozzola on April 06, 2013, 10:12:05 AM
Never thought about it much until I started talking in this forum.
That's a good thing.

  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator.
I wish we could make you begin to look at how much more amazing creation is w/o god, but with possible random processes and alot of time.
.......... of what bad religion has done to society.
Perhaps folks from other religions are also sincere.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on April 06, 2013, 10:14:08 AM
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

Thanks for acknowledging that.  Many xians act as if we were stupid for not thinking god is an obvious given.

I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels

Bad.  Bad, bad, bad. Those are not designed to instruct.  They are designed to be consumed and to sell advertising.  Try a book.  Here are several:

http://www.amazon.com/Pandas-Thumb-Reflections-Natural-History/dp/0393308197
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Books-Evolution-Published-Decade/lm/R6SZF692OH56G

here is a website:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs.html

here is a good quote from physicist Richard Feynman that I found at Talk Origins website.  It totally applies to you:
Quote
"... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd.

I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. "

- Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988),


There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released.

I deny it.  That is just wishful thinking.

I don't get why you say these things. I truly do not. 

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on April 06, 2013, 10:15:35 AM
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

Considering the numbers of believers out there, I have my doubts about this.


Quote
I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels hosted by reputable scientist, and they only deepen my beliefs.  INstead of explaining the holes in the theory you insult my intelligence.


Proof of critical research failure.  You need to do more than watch dodgy tv shows.  Read books.  Email actual scientists, go to reputable websites, etc.  Really, it's not that hard to learn things nowadays.


Quote
There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released. 


I deny that there spirit in every living creature.


Quote
God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace.

This jug of milk is my spirit guide, it brings me inner peace.  I see no difference between my statement and yours.


Quote
Religion is an obstacle that has brought man further from God. Just a few days ago I was watching a religious program called "The Supernatural." This guy claimed to have went to Heaven under a trance and received wisdom from Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah, and Moses. Needless to say it'll cost you $40 to hear what they had to say! What a Hypocrite! Not one of the programs I've seen so far refrain from begging for money! Sure I'm sure some of it gets to the needy, but you and I both know where a lot of it ends up!Oh man, people out there by the hundreds taking money from people with pictures of starving kids, it sickens my stomach. Well enough about that. Sorry.

If you understand that religion is hogwash, then why make up your own?


Quote
As far as what you call Spag, let me say this, I am proud to be a Spagette! It takes a lot of courage to stand up to religious hogwash, you Atheist know this too well. Where I differ from you is that I see it as false doctrine and decided to know God on a personal level instead of writing the Ancient belief off.


Somehow. I'm not sure you grasp what "SPAG" means.


Quote
There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.


I have peace and tranquility in my life.  No god required.


Quote
but since it's my spag, I can do what I want! I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator

Wow, you really don't know what "SPAG" refers to.  Self-Projection As God.  It means that your god is nothing more than a projection of your own vaules and ideals.  This is why you agree with your god 100% of the times, and why he always appears to share your vaules and ideals.  When you say "God is the same now as He has always been", you're really saying "My vaules and ideals are the same now as they've always been".
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on April 06, 2013, 10:45:30 AM
You admitted to piecing together your god from several versions of other peoples versions of gods, thus you created your god.

What I have admitted to is not limiting myself to religion to guide me. Where should I have looked? As far as I can tell these are the only sources available. It is up to the individual to process the information they receive and use it according to their own sense of right and wrong. Why should anyone think that one race of people is the only race that knows anything about God? Greeks write of their gods like they interacted with mankind, and usually brought chaos with them. They were petty and cruel gods.If those gods were made up why did they make them up to be so petty and cruel? No competition for the 1 God of the Jews, who brought Love and Comfort, through good times and bad, to the people that followed Him. For those of us who believe, but do not accept current teachings; there is not many places to go but your own heart.



Thank you "Life of PI" for making me feel not alone!
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on April 06, 2013, 11:14:29 AM
You admitted to piecing together your god from several versions of other peoples versions of gods, thus you created your god.

What I have admitted to is not limiting myself to religion to guide me. Where should I have looked? As far as I can tell these are the only sources available. It is up to the individual to process the information they receive and use it according to their own sense of right and wrong. Why should anyone think that one race of people is the only race that knows anything about God? Greeks write of their gods like they interacted with mankind, and usually brought chaos with them. They were petty and cruel gods.If those gods were made up why did they make them up to be so petty and cruel? No competition for the 1 God of the Jews, who brought Love and Comfort, through good times and bad, to the people that followed Him. For those of us who believe, but do not accept current teachings; there is not many places to go but your own heart.



Thank you "Life of PI" for making me feel not alone!

The god of the Jews is described in the OT... that god is far from love and comfort. That is the god that demands that you as a lesbian ought be stoned. The gods of the Roman mythology are far superior to yahweh in that they clearly had human traits and were not said to be omni-whatever, and their myths also supported that notion. In Jewish mythology (which originated as a pantheon of gods much like Greek and Roman mythology) the god figure evolved into whatever each individual person wants them to be (thus SPAG, you are creating your own god). But the actual texts dont support him being good or omni-max, he is exactly like the other myths.

You SHOULD have looked to see if any of this god talk makes any sense. Literally every single answer we have works fine with no god. What we dont know we simply dont know. God of the gaps simply doesnt work, as has been proven over and over again by the shrinking gaps where god used to fit. The only thing your heart does is pump blood. You may have a feeling inside you, but that is your humanity, not magic. Magic doesnt exist.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on April 06, 2013, 11:16:28 AM


Proof of critical research failure.  You need to do more than watch dodgy tv shows.  Read books.  Email actual scientists, go to reputable websites, etc.  Really, it's not that hard to learn things nowadays.


Quote
There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released. 


I deny that there spirit in every living creature.

Do you deny the human spirit?

Quote
God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace.

This jug of milk is my spirit guide, it brings me inner peace.  I see no difference between my statement and yours.





If you understand that religion is hogwash, then why make up your own?

I am not trying to start a new religion just sharing my thoughts.


Somehow. I'm not sure you grasp what "SPAG" means.

I grasp it just fine, it's the atheist way of brushing off people like me. In a way I agree with you, this is mine. I realize that you perceive my story in a way that is not my actual story.  It is your duty to scrutinize what I am telling you. I'd rather be spagging than denying!

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There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.


I have peace and tranquility in my life.  No god required.

That makes me happy for you. :)


Quote
but since it's my spag, I can do what I want! I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator

Wow, you really don't know what "SPAG" refers to.  Self-Projection As God.  It means that your god is nothing more than a projection of your own vaules and ideals.  This is why you agree with your god 100% of the times, and why he always appears to share your vaules and ideals.  When you say "God is the same now as He has always been", you're really saying "My vaules and ideals are the same now as they've always been".

PS. I do not always agree with God. I can get angry, been there done that. When the dust settled our friendship had grown.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on April 06, 2013, 11:29:57 AM

The god of the Jews is described in the OT... that god is far from love and comfort. That is the god that demands that you as a lesbian ought be stoned. The gods of the Roman mythology are far superior to yahweh in that they clearly had human traits and were not said to be omni-whatever, and their myths also supported that notion. In Jewish mythology (which originated as a pantheon of gods much like Greek and Roman mythology) the god figure evolved into whatever each individual person wants them to be (thus SPAG, you are creating your own god). But the actual texts dont support him being good or omni-max, he is exactly like the other myths.

You SHOULD have looked to see if any of this god talk makes any sense. Literally every single answer we have works fine with no god. What we dont know we simply dont know. God of the gaps simply doesnt work, as has been proven over and over again by the shrinking gaps where god used to fit. The only thing your heart does is pump blood. You may have a feeling inside you, but that is your humanity, not magic. Magic doesnt exist.

The point I keep trying to make is that a relationship with God is an individual experience; one that is different for all who choose to participate, so it's only natural for there to be some of yourself in your belief. 

I make no distinction between Jewish God and Roman Catholic God, etc... They are one in the same and the stories behind them are no different from my own, told by real people just trying to understand the meaning of life and how we came to be and why.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: wheels5894 on April 06, 2013, 11:43:14 AM
I make no distinction between Jewish God and Roman Catholic God, etc... They are one in the same and the stories behind them are no different from my own, told by real people just trying to understand the meaning of life and how we came to be and why.

So the bible isn't all that important to you? Where else do you get guidance on what you believe and how you live your life?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on April 06, 2013, 11:49:58 AM
junebug72, please fix your formatting in post #252.  It's hard to respond to something when two people comments are mixed together.


Quote
Do you deny the human spirit?

Define "human spirit".  If you mean as in "the will to get something done", we certainly have that, but there's nothing magical or mythological about it.

If by "human spirit", you mean "a magical/mythological power within all of us", then yes, I deny it completely absolutely wholeheartedly.  The reason being is that no one has demostrated that it exists.


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I am not trying to start a new religion just sharing my thoughts.

Your god is a composite of other gods.  His vaules are your own.  Sounds like a new religion.


Quote
PS. I do not always agree with God. I can get angry, been there done that. When the dust settled our friendship had grown.

What things do you not agree with god on, then?

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: The Gawd on April 06, 2013, 11:55:18 AM

The god of the Jews is described in the OT... that god is far from love and comfort. That is the god that demands that you as a lesbian ought be stoned. The gods of the Roman mythology are far superior to yahweh in that they clearly had human traits and were not said to be omni-whatever, and their myths also supported that notion. In Jewish mythology (which originated as a pantheon of gods much like Greek and Roman mythology) the god figure evolved into whatever each individual person wants them to be (thus SPAG, you are creating your own god). But the actual texts dont support him being good or omni-max, he is exactly like the other myths.

You SHOULD have looked to see if any of this god talk makes any sense. Literally every single answer we have works fine with no god. What we dont know we simply dont know. God of the gaps simply doesnt work, as has been proven over and over again by the shrinking gaps where god used to fit. The only thing your heart does is pump blood. You may have a feeling inside you, but that is your humanity, not magic. Magic doesnt exist.

The point I keep trying to make is that a relationship with God is an individual experience; one that is different for all who choose to participate, so it's only natural for there to be some of yourself in your belief. 

I make no distinction between Jewish God and Roman Catholic God, etc... They are one in the same and the stories behind them are no different from my own, told by real people just trying to understand the meaning of life and how we came to be and why.

You still have not looked to see if god actually exists... thats the point. You went looking for a god, any feeling you got you called god then built your gods story around what you liked. You made your god up, is the point. Those other people made their god up the same way you did yours. Thats why their god hates gays, but yours doesnt. Thats why their god loves slavery. Thats why your god probably treats women the same as men, and theirs treats women as property.

I didnt mention Roman Catholics, I mentioned Roman mythology as in Zeus et all (although I can see how the two would be confusing considering its essentially the same thing... read about Hercules). yahweh is EXACTLY the same as those gods in his autobiography, the bible. That is no surprise because theyre all just made up by people. Ignorant people when compared to today. Would you use a science book that was written 2000 years ago? Farming techniques from over 2000 years ago? Weapons from over 2000 years ago? No, all that is antiquated.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Tonus on April 06, 2013, 10:11:06 PM
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

I found it very easy to do.  When you are raised to believe in something and are part of a cult that reinforces those beliefs by constant repetition and by strictly forbidding you to read anything contrary, you wind up with a default belief that seems much more secure than it really is.  But in a day and age where so much information is within easy reach, it's less and less excusable to be so insulated.

Then again, many people "find god" later in life, often after some soul-searching.  When we have a reason to want to believe in something that isn't there, we can also build a belief system that is propped up by something other than reason.  For a person like that, I agree that believing can be difficult, because you're going against the mechanisms of belief that you employ differently in every other part of your life.  It requires effort to take that one facet of your life and force it to work in a way that is not intuitive.  But lots of people manage to do it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: JeffPT on April 07, 2013, 10:31:09 PM
Believing in God is not an easy thing to do.

I completely and totally disagree with you Junebug.  Believing in God is the ultimate easy answer to every question ever asked.  It's the 'I don't want to dig deep into the natural possibilities as to how we got here, I just want the easy answer' approach.  Learning how things really happened is MUCH harder and MUCH more time consuming to figure out. 

If you meant, 'believing in an all powerful and at the same time, an all loving God is not easy', then I agree with you, but only if you look at the facts and the evidence.  Because the evidence is massively against it.  It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to excuse away all the awful things in the world. 

I get my information on evolution and big bang theories from the History Channel and Science channels hosted by reputable scientist, and they only deepen my beliefs.

No, no, no.  Don't go there.  Some of those programs are good but some are really, really bad.  Don't take it upon yourself to try and figure out which are which.  I believe it was Screwtape who mentioned some decent starting points. 

It is without a single bit of trepidation that I say to you that if you really understood evolutionary theory, it would not deepen your beliefs.  It would give you an alternate explanation about how we got to where we are without the necessity of a supernatural being. 

INstead of explaining the holes in the theory you insult my intelligence.
Do you know how frustrating it is to talk with someone who doesn't accept a theory based on a horrible understanding of what the theory actually says?  It's one of the most tedious, mind numbing exercises in futility that exist on the planet.  Its like we have to do all the work for you.  Go do the real work yourself.  See what the experts are saying about it.  We aren't your babysitters and you're not 12 years old anymore. 

There are plenty of college grads that believe in God, I suppose they are dumb as well?
Believing in God doesn't make you dumb.  It makes you ill-informed, sometimes gullible, and naive, but not dumb. 

There is no denying that there is a spirit in every living creature, and when the outer shell wears out that spirit is released.
I deny that fully until you can prove it. 

God is my spirit guide, He brings me inner peace.
If God didn't exist but you really believed it did, this would still bring you 'inner peace'.  Just ask people of other religions who believe in other gods who get 'inner peace' from their gods.  It is your belief that he's there that gives you peace.  And why not?  Wouldn't having an omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent father figure watching over you night and day be just a wee bit comforting?  This is what you've created in your brain.  It doesn't have to exist to give you comfort, you only have to believe it does. 

Religion is an obstacle that has brought man further from God.

Stop.  Stop right there.  You, Junebug, practice a religion.  Here is the definition of religion from Merriam Webster. 

religion:

1. the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2. a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

That is you.  This is what you practice.  You believe that OTHER peoples interpretation of THEIR religion is the problem, but of course not yours, right? 

Just a few days ago I was watching a religious program called "The Supernatural." This guy claimed to have went to Heaven under a trance and received wisdom from Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah, and Moses. Needless to say it'll cost you $40 to hear what they had to say! What a Hypocrite! Not one of the programs I've seen so far refrain from begging for money! Sure I'm sure some of it gets to the needy, but you and I both know where a lot of it ends up!Oh man, people out there by the hundreds taking money from people with pictures of starving kids, it sickens my stomach. Well enough about that. Sorry.

It sickens ours too, but if you believe Jesus, Isaiah, Elijah and Moses as described in the bible all existed, then why do you think he's lying about his experiences?  Are you saying it's more likely that he's lying about it?  Why?  If he wasn't charging 40 dollars a pop, would you find him more convincing? Why is it reasonable to accept that ANYONE has taken wisdom from 4 dead people who, if they lived, all died more than a couple thousand years ago? 

But do you know why programs like that are profitable?  Because huge swaths of religious people are already very much gullible, naive and ill informed.  It often comes with the territory of being religious.  They fall for that far more easily than your average educated non-believer.  Did you know there is a man who sells pet insurance to people who believe in the rapture?  He says he will take care of your pets after you're swept on up to heaven.  And he makes money at it!  It's like candy from a baby. 

It takes a lot of courage to stand up to religious hogwash, you Atheist know this too well. Where I differ from you is that I see it as false doctrine and decided to know God on a personal level instead of writing the Ancient belief off.

Again with this?  So 7 billion people have it wrong, but Junebug has it right?  Uh huh.  I can point to a few billion people who feel EXACTLY the way that you do, and they would all disagree with your beliefs.  You should really let that sink in.  As right as you 'feel' you are, there are billions of people who 'feel' exactly the same way, and don't share your positions.

People who are deluded really have no ability to see that they are deluded.  I think Mark Twain said... "It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled."  Remember that. 

There is no simple way of explaining how God works in our lives, but there remains a soul inside me that has calmed since I gave God control of my life. I want to share that peace and tranquility with you.
Thank you, but most of us here have shed any need for the mental crutch that is God belief.  I don't need to believe in an invisible sky person to control my life. 

Omnipotence? I do not know the extinct of God's power. I know it's much more than my own.
Prove it.  Show me what God can do that you can't.  And you have to show that nothing... no other natural explanation could possibly trump your God theory. 

It is possible to me that there are fundamental "laws of the universe" that even God must follow.

Then who made those rules?  God's god?  If God is bound by fundamental laws, there are no miracles?  You are right... this is a hornet's nest waiting to happen.  There are so many problems with it. 

I still say it's better to offer a new and improved God than no God at all-sad attempt at sarcasm.
What you're offering is no more in evidence than anything else that has ever been offered up before. 

Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator.
...who stands by and watches while horrible, painful death takes millions of people and trillions of other life forms every year.  Feel the love....

The religions have twisted mankind's understanding of God by following the teachings of  dishonest men.
If the person who invented God was just a dishonest man, everything that came after it is probably a lie. 

It is my wish to spread God's Love and undo,if just a small segment, of what bad religion has done to society.
God isn't real Junebug.  If you want to be happy and pick flowers and sing songs, feel free.  But whatever love you're spreading, its not from God; its all you. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 09, 2013, 04:09:15 AM
Rather than taking the time to quote each one individually, I want to just post a general response......

Yes, I'm sure that IS what you want.  It means that you can ignore all the hard questions that you've been asked.  Sorry, Junebug, it doesn't work that way.  You've made statements, you need to either explain them, or retract them.  Here are my questions again.....

In response to us asking why your god didn't feed the starving, when he has the means and the ability, YOU SAID:

Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.  Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

So you are on record as saying that death is a GOOD thing, because - in your view - it transports people faster to be with god.

So given that is the case, why should I feed the starving?  Why should I help the next person in want that I see?  If it gets them faster to god - to somewhere "much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED" - then why should I be so evil as to feed them?  Better surely to let them die and speed them to the paradise you are sure exists?

You also didn't actually answer my question about your son.  You waffled around the issue, but didn't actually answer the direct question I asked.  You picked up on one aspect, to avoid answering the main point - so I've removed the diversion, so it is clear exactly what I am asking.

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".  So....(w)hy did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Aaron123 on April 09, 2013, 10:29:06 AM
^
I wonder if junebug72 knows that she've been caught in a corner, and she's trying to avoid dealing with the starving children question.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mrjason on April 10, 2013, 05:16:31 AM
I don't really understand the  premise of an earthly existence in the context of the above.

Ok so earth many be the quality control testing ground in gods angel production but why does he doubt his own work if he is all powerful/knowing etc?

If god wants to get people to heaven quicker why not cut out the middle man and create a new class of angel so we're already in heaven?

Am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 10, 2013, 06:08:57 AM
If god wants to get people to heaven quicker why not cut out the middle man and create a new class of angel so we're already in heaven?

There is a particular state of being that one must be in, in order to enter heaven (apparently).  Earthly life, as you say, is apparently the way that this state is attained.

However, it would be entirely possible for an omnipotent god to create life, in that particular state of being.  It could create them standing at the gates of heaven, and with whatever memories or experiences they needed to have.  They could further be created with "free will", and with no conception that any of their memories were not really obtained.

An omnipotent god could do all that - to say it could not do so is to suggest there are things god is unable to do.

There is further the argument that a loving god could do nothing other than that.  If a god could make it so that EVERY being it creates got immediately into heaven, it would have to be a particularly callous or indifferent god to instead choose a method of creation that would ensure billions would NOT enter its heaven.

A loving god would create us all in a fit state for heaven - the fact that this does not happen means god is NOT all loving.

The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: magicmiles on April 10, 2013, 06:19:26 AM
The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on April 10, 2013, 06:22:14 AM
He covered that one, magicmiles.  It falls under the "not loving" category he mentioned.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: magicmiles on April 10, 2013, 06:32:00 AM
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mrjason on April 10, 2013, 06:39:59 AM
Anfauglir, cheers for your reply. It makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mrjason on April 10, 2013, 06:42:40 AM
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

I think Anfauglir's response was based on what has been said in the bible.
 
Is there a part where god says "I've got a big secret, but I'm not telling you"

If so why bother with all of the rest of it?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: magicmiles on April 10, 2013, 06:46:13 AM
Actually, I haven't read the entire thread so I probably shouldn't have commented at all. Shame on me.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mrjason on April 10, 2013, 06:57:00 AM
Actually, I haven't read the entire thread so I probably shouldn't have commented at all. Shame on me.


The possibilities that Anfauglir offers are based what we have been told in the bible.
Yes maybe this is flawed human logic but why would some things be made abundantly clear and other issues seem to be obscure.

I'd still be interested to hear your take on why this is.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on April 10, 2013, 07:28:15 AM
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

This makes no sense as written, mm.  Did you mean to say something else?  You're saying here that Anfauglir didn't cover the "something other than what we can think of" category...because it was one of the possibilities he mentioned?  If he did, then wouldn't that mean that he did cover that possibility?  :-\
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 10, 2013, 08:53:36 AM
The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?

I don't know - could he?

An omnipotent god would be able to create mankind in the state I outlined - where every single creation was entirely suited for heaven, and where nobody suffered or was tormented for eternity.

That has not happened, so if an omnipotent god exists, I can only see the other option as being that it is not loving.  If you wish to argue that there is an omnipotent, loving god, then you'd need to explain why a loving god, who was capable of ensuring nobody ever suffered, instead chose an option where many millions did.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on April 10, 2013, 10:13:42 AM
^^ And why you, as a human, took it upon yourself to judge it to be good/loving.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: lotanddaughters on April 10, 2013, 11:57:40 AM
The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?

I don't know - could he?

An omnipotent god would be able to create mankind in the state I outlined - where every single creation was entirely suited for heaven, and where nobody suffered or was tormented for eternity.

That has not happened, so if an omnipotent god exists, I can only see the other option as being that it is not loving.  If you wish to argue that there is an omnipotent, loving god, then you'd need to explain why a loving god, who was capable of ensuring nobody ever suffered, instead chose an option where many millions did.
Yeah, MM, and before you say, "It's because God gave us free will because He doesn't want a bunch of robots mindlessly worshipping Him", remember that if this is true, then because of "free will" there will be raping and killing in Heaven. You can't have your cake and eat it too, Motherfucker.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: naemhni on April 11, 2013, 06:20:46 AM
You can't have your cake and eat it too, Motherfucker.

That's too far over the top.  Tone it down.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on April 11, 2013, 03:28:20 PM

Yes, I'm sure that IS what you want.  It means that you can ignore all the hard questions that you've been asked.  Sorry, Junebug, it doesn't work that way.  You've made statements, you need to either explain them, or retract them.  Here are my questions again.....

So you are on record as saying that death is a GOOD thing, because - in your view - it transports people faster to be with god.

That is NOT what I said, that is YOUR interpretation of what I said,I am very sorry that I am having trouble articulating what I mean so that it is understood the way I meant it. I'm not trying to avoid any questions, but there are so many. I will have to admit I was overwhelmed.


So given that is the case, why should I feed the starving?  Why should I help the next person in want that I see?  If it gets them faster to god - to somewhere "much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED" - then why should I be so evil as to feed them?  Better surely to let them die and speed them to the paradise you are sure exists?

Because that is not caring about others. The answer you're referring to was why God don't feed starving children, He wants us to help each other and my point is that when we don't God is there to relieve that person of their suffering.

You also didn't actually answer my question about your son.  You waffled around the issue, but didn't actually answer the direct question I asked.  You picked up on one aspect, to avoid answering the main point - so I've removed the diversion, so it is clear exactly what I am asking.

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".  So....(w)hy did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

I welcome your questions Ang, I thought I answered your question, I'm sorry you didn't like my answer. I have never said that humans should not help humans, this pleases God. Just like I have said repeatedly WE should feed the hungry, WE should Love and Protect our children, and WE should stop hurting each other. How could I have pleased God if I had denied my son that precious LOVE that saved him from a life of despair, because to me the drugs would not have hurt him nearly as bad as a mother that didn't care.

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?

That is not what I said and you know it.  God's heart breaks infinity times ours every time we lose a child or one of us is murdered or raped or molested,etc.. I understand that it is best for mankind to eliminate these problems without God's "physical" help. I also understand that we need His spiritual guidance to show us the way.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Astreja on April 11, 2013, 06:00:52 PM
I understand that it is best for mankind to eliminate these problems without God's "physical" help.

If it's up to us to solve our problems, and your god either cannot or will not help in any substantive way, then your god is superfluous.

Why worship it at all, Junebug?  It's not behaving in a respectworthy manner if it refuses to use its powers for people who desperately need help, and whose circumstances preclude timely rescue by humans.  Worshipping such a do-nothing god really isn't very satisfying at all.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 12, 2013, 03:09:00 AM
It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?

That is not what I said and you know it.  God's heart breaks infinity times ours every time we lose a child or one of us is murdered or raped or molested,etc..

No.  I DON'T know it Junebug.  You said very clearly that

God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.
  (I note that when you responded you ensured this quote was removed, so I've put it back in).

So why on earth does god's heart break when someone dies?  You've said that dying is NOT a bad thing to god - my heart never breaks over something I think is good.

(god) wants us to help each other and my point is that when we don't God is there to relieve that person of their suffering.

But again, why bother?  If we do nothing, they die, god steps in, and straight off to eternal happiness.  Are you honestly trying to tell me that another day of slightly-releived pain and hopelessness is BETTER than spending that day in heaven?

What you SEEM to be saying is that people need to suffer, because (in some fashion) this is a Good Thing for the people that help them.  Me, I'm not that selfish.  I'm prepared to take the hit myself, to not polish my soul that little bit, if by doing so I prevent some poor soul from reaching Heaven as soon as they can. 

But let's assume your god's heart DOES break every time someone is raped, or murdered, or whatever.  I find that very hard to believe.  He is an omnipotent being, and if he didn't want those things to happen, they would not happen.  But as you point out, he DOES want them to happen - because if they didn't, people like you wouldn't get to be a liiiiitle bit better for helping them.  So god allows those people to continue to suffer for YOUR benefit, Junebug.  Like I say, I'm not that selfish to want people to suffer on my account.

I wonder....does your god in some way engineer suffering, so that others can help them?  He certainly allows suffering to continue, so its not a big stretch to suggest that he maybe nudges some people into suffering.  But either way, what you need to consider is this.

Your son suffered so that YOU could help him and reap the benefit.  And this was good in your god's eyes.

Like I say - I'm not that selfish.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: magicmiles on April 14, 2013, 06:03:12 AM
No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

This makes no sense as written, mm.  Did you mean to say something else?  You're saying here that Anfauglir didn't cover the "something other than what we can think of" category...because it was one of the possibilities he mentioned?  If he did, then wouldn't that mean that he did cover that possibility?  :-\

It did to me at the time. Now I'm too tired to work out what I meant.

Anyway, as I said, I shouldn't have entered this thread at all.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on April 17, 2013, 07:25:37 AM
Never thought about it much until I started talking in this forum.
That's a good thing.

  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator.
I wish we could make you begin to look at how much more amazing creation is w/o god, but with possible random processes and alot of time.
.......... of what bad religion has done to society.

It's not the beginning that makes me cling to God, it's the end. Yes being in awe of existence, is how I know God's there, but the comfort of having a Grand Master of Truth and Knowledge, to guide me through the process is the ultimate motivation.

 

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on April 17, 2013, 08:11:27 AM
Whoah - way to dodge the questions!  Seems to be a common theme with you Junebug.  I note you ducked out of the other thread when things got too hard for you.  Sorry, but you are NOT going to be allowed to dodge and prevaricate, not when you keep making assertions of fact.

I just wanted to let you know I checked out that other thread and I don't see what you're problem with me leaving that conversation is. I answered all the difficult questions.

Did you now?  Funny, didn't see an answer to my last post.  Specifically:

I wonder....does your god in some way engineer suffering, so that others can help them?  He certainly allows suffering to continue, so its not a big stretch to suggest that he maybe nudges some people into suffering.  But either way, what you need to consider is this.

Your son suffered so that YOU could help him and reap the benefit.  And this was good in your god's eyes.

Like I say - I'm not that selfish.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: fides on May 02, 2013, 12:11:57 PM
Okay I know this may sound stupid, but can you elaborate more as to how thats contradicting? I`m not disagreeing, I just literally don`t understand Dx
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on May 02, 2013, 12:37:21 PM
You may have to be a bit more specific...it's been quite a few pages.  Do you mean the opening post?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: RoxieJayy on May 27, 2013, 06:05:33 AM
Just joined this website, & I gotta say ...I love how people who don't even believe in God know so much more about the Bible than most Christians now a days.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself/No Contradiction
Post by: DT on June 01, 2013, 10:48:49 PM
I'll give the bottom line upfront, though this may seem to be a contradiction it truly is not.
The issue is the word fool or in Greek/Hebrew it is moros (dull, stupid, insipid, without discernment) versus anoetos (unintelligent, fool-(ish), unwise, slow to understand truth) and whether  the individual is a believer (brother) or not.
In Matthew 5 Jesus is talking to believers saying one believer can not say to another believer you fool with hatred in his heart for that individual. So three things must be present to be in danger of fire: Believer to believer (note the number of times "brother" is used verses 21-24), murderous hatred, and then saying fool (moros, where we get moron).
The the times Jesus says fool (anoetos) it is to the Pharisees who had no love for their fellow man (the crucified Jesus) or those not excepting truth . So saying fool because of slowness to understand the truth is not going to place Jesus or someone in danger of fire.
Hope this helps

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself/No Contradiction
Post by: The Gawd on June 01, 2013, 11:12:49 PM
I'll give the bottom line upfront, though this may seem to be a contradiction it truly is not.
The issue is the word fool or in Greek/Hebrew it is moros (dull, stupid, insipid, without discernment) versus anoetos (unintelligent, fool-(ish), unwise, slow to understand truth) and whether  the individual is a believer (brother) or not.
In Matthew 5 Jesus is talking to believers saying one believer can not say to another believer you fool with hatred in his heart for that individual. So three things must be present to be in danger of fire: Believer to believer (note the number of times "brother" is used verses 21-24), murderous hatred, and then saying fool (moros, where we get moron).
The the times Jesus says fool (anoetos) it is to the Pharisees who had no love for their fellow man (the crucified Jesus) or those not excepting truth . So saying fool because of slowness to understand the truth is not going to place Jesus or someone in danger of fire.
Hope this helps

Even without a vast knowledge of the particular words referenced in the original language, this explanation doesnt work. The Pharisees were Jews and Jesus would have been a Jew as well. They believed the same thing.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 11:38:39 AM
Just joined this website, & I gotta say ...I love how people who don't even believe in God know so much more about the Bible than most Christians now a days.

Anecdotes don't count as scholarly research.  Whatever sources your using to draw
your conclusions need to be cited.  Unless your just speaking off-the-cuff of course.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 11:46:31 AM
So why on earth does god's heart break when someone dies?

God feels for the people of the world.  If a child wanders out of the house built for them, God feels
the pain of the results if the child wanders into traffic.   If the child is "saved" is up for debate.
But those left behind feel some grief and God feels their torment, their fault or not.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on June 10, 2013, 12:04:10 PM
God feels for the people of the world.

Really?  How do you know this?

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 12:13:37 PM
God feels for the people of the world.

Really?  How do you know this?

Some of what I know about God is documented in the scriptures.
I could provide any number of these references.

But a secular example is that I don't kill you this instant.
If God was not compassionate, I could eat you at any time.
But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me
to allow me to exist.  We may be talking about the "god" of
natural selection in this case, but some rules are being made
that we are following.  And we seem to obey them for some
reason.

I'm new here.  Are we allowed to wander off the OP topic?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jdawg70 on June 10, 2013, 12:36:50 PM
Some of what I know about God is documented in the scriptures.
I could provide any number of these references.

But a secular example is that I don't kill you this instant.
If God was not compassionate, I could eat you at any time.
But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me
to allow me to exist.  We may be talking about the "god" of
natural selection in this case, but some rules are being made
that we are following.  And we seem to obey them for some
reason.
What's confusing here is it seems that it is you who is being compassionate, not god.
Quote
I'm new here.  Are we allowed to wander off the OP topic?
Best not to, but then again, I really haven't participated in a thread where tangents are taken at some point.  A mod will come about and realign the discussion if it gets far too off topic.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 12:51:10 PM
What's confusing here is it seems that it is you who is being compassionate, not god.

Sure, but why?  You don't offer me any benefit being alive.
In fact, your eating my food. And i'm ticked.
I should smack you right now.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on June 10, 2013, 01:10:54 PM
Some of what I know about God is documented in the scriptures.

So you claim to know the feelings of God based on the writings of men who died as recently as 2000 years ago.  I'm not sure I would qualify that as "knowledge".  Your knowledge boils down to "some guy (who knows less science than a thrid grader) told me". 

But how do you know that guy was right?

I could provide any number of these references.

You could.  I am afraid I would reject them, though.

But a secular example is that I don't kill you this instant.

I don't follow.  What does not killing me have to do with knowing what god supposedly wants?  It would seem to me that even if there were a god and even if he wanted us to not kill each other, you not killing me would be a conclusion of those facts, not evidence of them.

That follows the most basic logical fallacy:
If A then B
B
therefore A

If God was not compassionate, I could eat you at any time.

I still don't follow.  You could eat me any time.  The only thing stopping you is you.[1]  Jeffrey Dahmer ate people.  People in Papua New Guinea eat people (on occasion).  Does that mean god is not compassionate?

But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me to allow me to exist.

I seriously have no idea what your point is here.

We may be talking about the "god" of natural selection in this case,

Then we are not talking about a god at all.  You should be more disciplined and less ambiguous with how you use the word "god".

I'm new here.  Are we allowed to wander off the OP topic?

It is permissible.  I tend to frown on it. But sometimes the conversation goes where it goes...

 1. well, I'd have something to say about it, but that's not the point
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 01:16:57 PM
So you claim to know the feelings of God based on the writings of men who died as recently as 2000 years ago.  I'm not sure I would qualify that as "knowledge".  Your knowledge boils down to "some guy (who knows less science than a thrid grader) told me".

I don't claim to know your education level.  But I know God for what He does in my life.
One can't ask for better proof than personal experience.

In R&D we conduct experiments and draw conclusions based on experiences even if no one else is watching.  My Faith comes from the same kind of experiences.  I could show you my study notes if you need them.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on June 10, 2013, 01:25:22 PM
But I know God for what He does in my life.

So you are now telling me your "knowledge" is not based on reading ancient mythology, it is based on personal observation?  What does god do for you in your life?

One can't ask for better proof than personal experience.

Yes and no.  If you have actually observed god in action, that would be compelling.  However, the nature of personal experience is prone to all sorts of errors and bias.  So, the short answer is "that depends".

In R&D we conduct experiments and draw conclusions based on experiences even if no one else is watching.

Why did you add"even if no one else is watching" at the end?  What's that got to do with it?  And in R&D the experiments are done in a data-driven, rigorous, quantifiable manner, are they not? 

  My Faith comes from the same kind of experiences.

data driven?
rigorous?
quantifiable?

I could show you my study notes if you need them.

I would be keen to see them.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 01:31:16 PM
But I know God for what He does in my life.

So you are now telling me your "knowledge" is not based on reading ancient mythology, it is based on personal observation?  What does god do for you in your life?

Whatever I need.  Often not exactly what I ask for but that's my error.
Occasionally, exactly what I ask for plus 7 times as much unexpected.

The formula to follow exactly to get instant results is:

"This, then, is how you should pray >> " Matthew 6:9

Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.
All failing comes from you not following the exact
procedure written by the "old dead guys."
If you can't follow the formula, then get some
more training, or practice.

Just like real life.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 10, 2013, 01:34:56 PM
<snip>
Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.

Already did when I was a believer. I prayed for my mentally-deficient cousin to get better, every day, before going to sleep. Nothing happened.

All failing comes from you not following the exact
procedure written by the "old dead guys."

Ever heard of poisoning the well? It's a common logical fallacy, which I'm sure you'll ignore, since it feeds your delusion.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 01:36:55 PM

Already did when I was a believer. I prayed for my mentally-deficient cousin to get better, every day, before going to sleep. Nothing happened.


I am sorry about your mistake.
The instructions said nothing about you getting what you want.
Read them again.   Show me where it promises that you get your way.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 10, 2013, 01:39:38 PM
The instructions said nothing about you getting what you want.
Read them again.

True. But you did. You said I'd get proof. Being all-knowing, your god knows that the only proof (after praying) would be my cousin being healed. Any explanation?
Also, I see you've failed to address your use of the poisoning the well fallacy.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 01:44:28 PM
The instructions said nothing about you getting what you want.
Read them again.

True. But you did. You said I'd get proof. Being all-knowing, your god knows that the only proof (after praying) would be my cousin being healed. Any explanation?
Also, I see you've failed to address your use of the poisoning the well fallacy.

Only if your science professor is guilty of red marking your lab book.
Follow the words one at a time.   I don't get what I want unless:________________

On those occasions, everything matches up perfect.
Any mismatch is my error.
ALL science professors will agree with me on this, newbies suck at following directions.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 10, 2013, 01:47:43 PM
Only if your science professor is guilty of red marking your lab book.
Follow the words one at a time.   I don't get what I want unless:________________

I did all this, several years ago. Nothing happened. And I don't mean I didn't get what I wanted. I mean that, literally, nothing happened.

On those occasions, everything matches up perfect.
Any mismatch is my error.

Poisoning the well again. I'm gonna start smiting you for that.

ALL science professors will agree with me on this, newbies suck at following directions.

I'm older than time itself, puny mortal. If you could understand my mind, you'd bow down and worship me, rather than a false god like YHWH.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on June 10, 2013, 02:33:20 PM
Whatever I need. 

Can you be more specific?  Does he mow the lawn?  Bring you a ham and cheese sandwich?  Loan you money?  Did god ever help you move?


"This, then, is how you should pray >> " Matthew 6:9

Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.

I did that for many years.  I received no proof in all those years.

All failing comes from you not following the exact procedure written by the "old dead guys."

I find that to be a particularly scummy and often repeated claim.  If I were king, anyone who claimed special knowledge of the divine - like you - would be forbidden from making this kind of excuse under penalty of death.  You, my friend, would be fed to alligators under the reign of King Screwtape the Rational.

So, let's look at what's wrong with this.  First, you claim to have an experiment.  Yet all outcomes confirm your predicted result.  That is not an experiment.  That is an assumption.

Second, why would god be so particular about the exact format if a person's heart is in the right place?  You make it sound suspiciously like a magic incantation where the slightest deviation causes the spell to fail.  yhwh's magic must be very weak if it depends on human accuracy so much.

Third, I am pretty sure I followed the formula.  How do we know it was me and not something else, like your forumla?  Or you lying? 

I am pretty sure my only failing was thinking there was a god. 


Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 02:39:38 PM
Whatever I need. 

Can you be more specific?  Does he mow the lawn?  Bring you a ham and cheese sandwich?  Loan you money?  Did god ever help you move?


"This, then, is how you should pray >> " Matthew 6:9

Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.

I did that for many years.  I received no proof in all those years.

All failing comes from you not following the exact procedure written by the "old dead guys."

I find that to be a particularly scummy and often repeated claim.  If I were king, anyone who claimed special knowledge of the divine - like you - would be forbidden from making this kind of excuse under penalty of death.  You, my friend, would be fed to alligators under the reign of King Screwtape the Rational.

So, let's look at what's wrong with this.  First, you claim to have an experiment.  Yet all outcomes confirm your predicted result.  That is not an experiment.  That is an assumption.

Second, why would god be so particular about the exact format if a person's heart is in the right place?  You make it sound suspiciously like a magic incantation where the slightest deviation causes the spell to fail.  yhwh's magic must be very weak if it depends on human accuracy so much.

Third, I am pretty sure I followed the formula.  How do we know it was me and not something else, like your forumla?  Or you lying? 

I am pretty sure my only failing was thinking there was a god.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 02:49:48 PM
Can you be more specific?  Does he mow the lawn?  Bring you a ham and cheese sandwich?  Loan you money?  Did god ever help you move?

He did have "a lawn mowed for me" a few days before I prayed for a clearing in the tall field that I was driving by while on a trip.  The other things could happen if they needed to happen.  But the mowing was a critical need so it was answered days before my prayer.

Another critical event occurred where I needed a ride and a bus held over so I could get out of the US on time.  But the most relevant result was that my anxiety was removed and replaced with knowledge that the prayer had been answered.  The facts that it was, was not a surprise.  I already knew it had all been taken care of.  That was the surprising result, the peace than comes from knowing I had been heard.

As to your following the formula, your request shows you didn't read it right.
Right after "Your kingdom come," 
my will be done for me because I so smart.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on June 10, 2013, 05:34:34 PM
He did have "a lawn mowed for me"

Why did you put it in quotes?  Stop playing games and be clear.  Did yhwh mow the lawn or what?


As to your following the formula, your request shows you didn't read it right.

As I pointed out, it doesn't show that.  That is merely your assumption.  There are several possibilities, of which my error is but one.  So either you need to explain how to tell which of these possibilities is the root of it, or back off your claim.

Right after "Your kingdom come," my will be done for me because I so smart.

That's just obnoxious.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 06:15:39 PM
He did have "a lawn mowed for me"

Why did you put it in quotes?  Stop playing games and be clear.  Did yhwh mow the lawn or what?

He had it mowed for my benefit by a person with feet.  He always uses people available.
Then He had me ask for it seconds before He provided the mowed space I needed.
And if you think it's because I fervently pray constantly...that's not the case.
I should, but that's not the case.


As to your following the formula, your request shows you didn't read it right.

As I pointed out, it doesn't show that.  That is merely your assumption.  There are several possibilities, of which my error is but one.  So either you need to explain how to tell which of these possibilities is the root of it, or back off your claim.

Right after "Your kingdom come," my will be done for me because I so smart.
That's just obnoxious.

Exactly.  This explains why prayers don't work.  Asking God to act outside of your best interest is obnoxious.  If you can manage to get your desires in line with God's will then He instantly answers those requests.  It's very difficult to get into the "Thy will be done" mindset.  Very very hard to be that humble.   But if you READ the formula, that's exactly what it says.  THY WILL BE DONE.   Get to that place, and God does exactly what you say.  It happens after you request exactly what He has in mind. And it's amazing when it happens.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself/No Contradiction
Post by: DT on June 10, 2013, 06:32:38 PM

Even without a vast knowledge of the particular words referenced in the original language, this explanation doesnt work. The Pharisees were Jews and Jesus would have been a Jew as well. They believed the same thing.
[/quote]

Very true. but you have to ask if the Pharisees, believed in Jesus. They saw with their own eyes and still crucified Him...which is foolish.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on June 10, 2013, 07:46:28 PM
He had it mowed for my benefit by a person with feet.  He always uses people available.
Then He had me ask for it seconds before He provided the mowed space I needed.
And if you think it's because I fervently pray constantly...that's not the case.
I should, but that's not the case.

That's very cryptic.  I'm tired of trying to drag answers out of you.  If you want to have a conversation, then answer the question without being a douche.  If not, piss off.

Exactly.  This explains why prayers don't work.  Asking God to act outside of your best interest is obnoxious.

No, no, Mr Know-it-all.  YOU are obnoxious.  You have no idea for what I prayed.  And yet you feel justified, confident even, in proclaiming knowledge of my motives.  Pride is a sin. 

Very very hard to be that humble.   But if you READ the formula, that's exactly what it says.  THY WILL BE DONE.   Get to that place, and God does exactly what you say. 

Well, since you clearly haven't a shred of humility, then your "answered prayers" must have some other explanation.  I know it is nice to think there is a god who is on your side.  But it is also the ultimate ego trip. 

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 11, 2013, 03:02:45 AM
Anecdotes don't count as scholarly research. 

I know God for what He does in my life.  One can't ask for better proof than personal experience.

LOL!  QFT.

But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me to allow me to exist. 

Or we may both be SO far below his radar on his list of concerns that the question hasn't even occurred to him.  There is quite likely to be a small bug living beneath the floorboards in your house.  You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?

Right after "Your kingdom come," my will be done for me

This explains why prayers don't work.  Asking God to act outside of your best interest is obnoxious.  If you can manage to get your desires in line with God's will then He instantly answers those requests.  It's very difficult to get into the "Thy will be done" mindset.  Very very hard to be that humble.   But if you READ the formula, that's exactly what it says.  THY WILL BE DONE.   Get to that place, and God does exactly what you say.  It happens after you request exactly what He has in mind. And it's amazing when it happens.

I'm not clear on how this counts as "proof" that a god exists, because what you are saying is that "god makes happen what god wants to happen, 100% of the time".  And the only way you can delude yourself that what YOU want has any bearing is if what you want mirrors exactly what god wants.....but even then, from what you've said, YOUR wishes still have no bearing.  They just happen to match what god wants to happen anyway.

So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 13, 2013, 09:24:12 AM
So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.
But let me put it in a secular frame for you.  You think of a good friend of
yours and you pick up the phone (landline) to call them and they are already
on the line because they called you.

Scientifically speaking, this may be because we live in a multiverse where
all possibilities do actually play out, and once in a while you get tuned in
to the future that is seconds away.

While that's possible, the ongoing conversation with God fits my experiences
better. He occasionally causes me to pray about things about to happen.
And it is so stunning when it happens.   

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 04:15:46 AM
So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify?  Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did?  But that what god did would NOT differ?


But let me put it in a secular frame for you.  You think of a good friend of
yours and you pick up the phone (landline) to call them and they are already
on the line because they called you.

Do you know, its amazing that you mention that, because just the other day I went to call a friend I'd not spoken to for ages.  I picked up the phone, and already on the line was a double-glazing firm calling me!  Spooky or what!

It happened the other week, too.  I went to call him, and his number was engaged!  I tried for half an hour, and eventually got through to his wife, who told me he was at work.

Point being, sometimes weird coincidences happen.  And, being human, because they make for a great story, we remember them and tell them to others, and they come to seem FAR more important that the 999,999 other times when weird stuff DIDN'T happen.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you.  What do you calculate the odds are of that happening?  I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please. 

Or, if you prefer, you could answer the question I posed about the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 05:31:45 AM
So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify?  Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did?  But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility.  My wife was with me and needed a rest stop. She is quadriplegic.
She was not aware of my prayer so was oblivious to the fact that the results were in answer
to my prayers.   Additionally, I had a hard time finding a place to stop because of the rain.
I shut off the wipers after I stopped.   The ground was dry when I opened the door.


But let me put it in a secular frame for you.  You think of a good friend of
yours and you pick up the phone (landline) to call them and they are already
on the line because they called you.

Do you know, its amazing that you mention that, because just the other day I went to call a friend I'd not spoken to for ages.  I picked up the phone, and already on the line was a double-glazing firm calling me!  Spooky or what!

It happened the other week, too.  I went to call him, and his number was engaged!  I tried for half an hour, and eventually got through to his wife, who told me he was at work.

Point being, sometimes weird coincidences happen.  And, being human, because they make for a great story, we remember them and tell them to others, and they come to seem FAR more important that the 999,999 other times when weird stuff DIDN'T happen.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you.  What do you calculate the odds are of that happening?  I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please. 

I'm glad you illustrated the 999,999 times.  I don't pray fervent prayers that often and the result has been 100%.   
4 out of 4, so far.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 05:39:58 AM
Well, since you clearly haven't a shred of humility, then your "answered prayers" must have some other explanation.  I know it is nice to think there is a god who is on your side.  But it is also the ultimate ego trip.

That's the difficult part.  If I take any credit at all for the result, it doesn't happen.
So I can't actually believe that I had any part in the result.  I can only take credit for
changing my desires to line up with God.  Even then, I have to give Him credit for that
as well.  You can see why prayer doesn't work on demand.

It does work.  Just not on demand by man.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 05:43:18 AM
<snip>
It does work.  Just not on demand by man.

Bible says otherwise.
Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 05:50:02 AM
<snip>
It does work.  Just not on demand by man.

Bible says otherwise.
Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm

"In My Name" is not as simple as some take it.   But let's say it is.

I go to the store an purchase underwear "in my wife's name".

Do you see how you interpret that phrase will make a difference in what I return with?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 06:09:34 AM
<snip>
Do you see how you interpret that phrase will make a difference in what I return with?

No.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 06:17:20 AM
<snip>
Do you see how you interpret that phrase will make a difference in what I return with?

No.

In one case I come back with women's underwear
because I bought it with her in mind.

Not just using her credit card.

Or maybe I bought what she would want me to wear rather than what I find comfortable.
Maybe she would want me in sexy underwear, or maybe baggy ones that are better
for reproductive purposes.   So "In Her Name" MIGHT be what I had in mind
or maybe not.
 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 06:18:51 AM
I dunno if it's because English is not my first language, but you're not making any sense.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 06:26:18 AM
I dunno if it's because English is not my first language, but you're not making any sense.

"In Gods Name" does not mean you get a free pass to anything you want
just by using God's name, like a credit card.

"In my NAME" requires responsibility to the name.  It's not a wallet.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2013, 06:29:01 AM
"In Gods Name" does not mean you get a free pass to anything you want
just by using God's name, like a credit card.

Now we're getting somewhere.

"In my NAME" requires responsibility to the name.  It's not a wallet.

What do you mean by "responsibility to the name"?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 06:35:38 AM
So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify?  Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did?  But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility.  My wife was with me and .....

This would be an easier conversation if you stuck to the point.  I am trying to clarify what you meant in response to my question "Would events unfold any differently (whether I prayed or not)?"
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 06:37:42 AM
Third time of asking this question.

.....the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"

Second time of asking this question.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you.  What do you calculate the odds are of that happening?  I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on June 14, 2013, 06:41:37 AM
"In Gods Name" does not mean you get a free pass to anything you want ...

It does when the verse says:

Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2013, 01:53:05 AM
I now know why SkyWriting chose his name: needs all the empty space for the words in his empty brain.

-Nam
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 04:29:56 AM
"In Gods Name" does not mean you get a free pass to anything you want ...

It does when the verse says:

Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Asking for something "In my name"  is not the same as "just say my name".
I'll borrow your name for illustration.

I want this car in the name of President Azdgari.
President Azdgari wants me to have this. Give it to me now.
Azdgari asked me to with draw this money from the President Azdgari account. 
I will take this money in the name of President Azdgari.

Do you see how there is responsibly in the use of a name? 
How correct use requires your approval first?

Suppose I empty your bank account in your name.  Could I do that again an hour later?
Clearly this will only work with your approval. Legally, i get in trouble.
Practically, your bank account gets emptied the first time.

It only works with your full approval, every time. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 04:32:44 AM
I now know why SkyWriting chose his name: needs all the empty space for the words in his empty brain.

-Nam

If you keep your posts short and clever you can have a larger quantity than most everyone.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 04:37:21 AM
Third time of asking this question.

.....the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"

Second time of asking this question.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you.  What do you calculate the odds are of that happening?  I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please. 

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not.   
Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.
 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 04:43:50 AM
So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify?  Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did?  But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility.  My wife was with me and .....

This would be an easier conversation if you stuck to the point.  I am trying to clarify what you meant in response to my question "Would events unfold any differently (whether I prayed or not)?"

That's the classic time travel issue.  Can I change future events?  Because God exists outside of time and knows the future
do things change or is everything pre-set in stone.   It can't be answered by us linear time-line beings.   
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 04:46:01 AM
"In Gods Name" does not mean you get a free pass to anything you want
just by using God's name, like a credit card.

Now we're getting somewhere.

"In my NAME" requires responsibility to the name.  It's not a wallet.

What do you mean by "responsibility to the name"?

It means "What would Jesus ask for in this situation".   
That's what "In Jesus Name " means.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 05:44:07 AM
It means "What would Jesus ask for in this situation".   
That's what "In Jesus Name " means.

That makes sense.[1]
However...
Quote from: Like 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
Source: http://biblehub.com/luke/17-6.htm

Also, while I'm at it, I might as well point out that, according to you, prayer is worthless.
 1. Bet you thought you'd never hear that from an atheist, mirite?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on June 15, 2013, 06:30:49 AM
I want this car in the name of President Azdgari.
President Azdgari wants me to have this. Give it to me now.
Azdgari asked me to with draw this money from the President Azdgari account. 
I will take this money in the name of President Azdgari.

If I was actually President Azdgari, and if I'd already said you could ask for anything in my name, and if I had the power and authority to grant you that money, then that would be fine.  This is the situation described by the scripture we both disrespect.

Do you see how there is responsibly in the use of a name? 
How correct use requires your approval first?

Yes.  Scripture directly states we have that approval in all cases.  That is what the word "anything" means.

Suppose I empty your bank account in your name.  Could I do that again an hour later?
Clearly this will only work with your approval. Legally, i get in trouble.
Practically, your bank account gets emptied the first time.

It only works with your full approval, every time.

You could do this.  You wouldn't get much money the 2nd time, but you could still empty what was there.  If it was a supernatural bank account without limits then you could draw from it indefinitely.  And if I had already stated that you could ask for anything in my name, and get it, then (assuming my statement was recognized legally) you would have my permission.

I totally get that you don't believe in scripture.  But at least have the balls to say so outright instead of these silly games.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: screwtape on June 15, 2013, 08:43:55 AM
Hi SkyWriting

The green text indicates I am acting as a moderator, not a participant in the conversation. 

You said:

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not.   
Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.

While I agree that obnoxious or trollish questions needn't be answered, on point questions should be.  That is the policy of this forum.  Otherwise people might be inclined to ignore questions they simply find difficult to answer or to avoid questions that are damaging to their argument. 

If you are overwhelmed by questions and do not have time to respond to all of them, you could avail yourself of a debate thread in the Debate area.:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,52.0.html
read the rules there before posting, please.

I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 16, 2013, 02:48:44 AM
Third time of asking this question.

.....the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"

Second time of asking this question.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you.  What do you calculate the odds are of that happening?  I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please. 

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not.   
Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.

And some get ignored because the person knows that the answers would decimate his arguments, so its far safer to ignore them.  Intellectual cowardice, I believe is the term.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 16, 2013, 02:52:29 AM
So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify?  Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did?  But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility.  My wife was with me and .....

This would be an easier conversation if you stuck to the point.  I am trying to clarify what you meant in response to my question "Would events unfold any differently (whether I prayed or not)?"

That's the classic time travel issue.  Can I change future events?  Because God exists outside of time and knows the future
do things change or is everything pre-set in stone.   It can't be answered by us linear time-line beings.   

Not very useful for your position, that response - because what you have just said is that you have NO idea whether something would or would not happen, whether or not you prayed - giving you no basis for any assumption that prayer actually works.

But in any case, it is a dodge.  What I am asking you is whether the offering of a prayer affects what your god will do. 

Say there is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do?
You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 08:56:03 AM
Say there is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do? You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?

On those occasions, God has given me the peace to know He will "Take Care Of The Situation".  Then He has instantly taken care of the situation, either as I had in mind, or way better than I had imagined. 

I gained the blessing of knowing God was in charge.  That may have been the only difference because blessings come to unbelievers as well.  They just don't get the knowledge of where it comes from.   Each breath is an example.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 09:05:49 AM
.....the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"

Fine.  Bugs don't reason anything. 

Now, assuming a reasoning bug.
I don't kill him.
Yes, I may be Buddist and not kill bugs.  Lucky bug.
I may not like sprays, lucky bug.
I may not like the spray companies, lucky bug.
I may not care about bugs, lucky bugs.
I may kill him anyway with floor cleaner, unlucky bug.
I may eat bugs and find him, unlucky bug.
I may collect bugs and feed him in a box - good
I may collect bugs and stick him with a pin - bad for bug
The bug may get eaten by other bugs - bad

OK,  you got me I guess.


Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 09:18:44 AM
Hi SkyWriting

The green text indicates I am acting as a moderator, not a participant in the conversation. 

You said:

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not.   
Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.

While I agree that obnoxious or trollish questions needn't be answered, on point questions should be.  That is the policy of this forum.  Otherwise people might be inclined to ignore questions they simply find difficult to answer or to avoid questions that are damaging to their argument. 

If you are overwhelmed by questions and do not have time to respond to all of them, you could avail yourself of a debate thread in the Debate area.:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,52.0.html
read the rules there before posting, please.

I hope this helps.


As a favor to your politeness I have answered the question about how a bug under the floorboards should interpret the decision of a man who chooses not to kill it.   If you believe that will help the OP then I'll address the question directly. 

However,  the odds of me addressing such a lame question again are slim.  But being new, I will try to respond to all polite questions.  I admit, the bug under the floor boards was difficult for me to answer.  Thanks for forcing me to cover the stuff you find critical.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: junebug72 on June 17, 2013, 09:30:11 AM
Skywriter,

While you're feeling so good about yourself, maybe you could address me and stop ignoring me.  You are being so, so rude. 
[/glow]
JB

I chose yellow on purpose.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 12:49:02 PM
Skywriter,While you're feeling so good about yourself, maybe you could address me and stop ignoring me.  You are being so, so rude. 
[/glow]
JB

I chose yellow on purpose.

Scrolling down, I can't find any posts of yours. 
Sorry.   I don't see the thread tools that other forums have.
I'll check again.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 18, 2013, 03:13:08 AM
Say there is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do? You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?

On those occasions, God has given me the peace to know He will "Take Care Of The Situation".  Then He has instantly taken care of the situation, either as I had in mind, or way better than I had imagined. 

Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question.  I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it.  What does your god do? You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 18, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
.....the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"

Fine.  Bugs don't reason anything. 

Now, assuming a reasoning bug.
I don't kill him.
Yes, I may be Buddist and not kill bugs.  Lucky bug.
I may not like sprays, lucky bug.
I may not like the spray companies, lucky bug.
I may not care about bugs, lucky bugs.
I may kill him anyway with floor cleaner, unlucky bug.
I may eat bugs and find him, unlucky bug.
I may collect bugs and feed him in a box - good
I may collect bugs and stick him with a pin - bad for bug
The bug may get eaten by other bugs - bad

OK,  you got me I guess.

Thank you for your honesty.  When one being is so far in advance of another, the "lower" being cannot simply assume anything about the higher being, based on its own limited understanding.  Even what appear to be clear signs (from the bug's point of view) could be for reasons both entirely unknown and unknowable.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 20, 2013, 08:48:47 AM
.....the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"

Fine.  Bugs don't reason anything. 

Now, assuming a reasoning bug.
I don't kill him.
Yes, I may be Buddist and not kill bugs.  Lucky bug.
I may not like sprays, lucky bug.
I may not like the spray companies, lucky bug.
I may not care about bugs, lucky bugs.
I may kill him anyway with floor cleaner, unlucky bug.
I may eat bugs and find him, unlucky bug.
I may collect bugs and feed him in a box - good
I may collect bugs and stick him with a pin - bad for bug
The bug may get eaten by other bugs - bad

OK,  you got me I guess.

Thank you for your honesty.  When one being is so far in advance of another, the "lower" being cannot simply assume anything about the higher being, based on its own limited understanding.  Even what appear to be clear signs (from the bug's point of view) could be for reasons both entirely unknown and unknowable.

Well, all the references we have nix the Bug / Big Sneaker relationship and point toward a Father / Son / Children of God relationship.    Children have faith that their parents won't squash them.   Usually correct.  Except in Milwaukee.

Even dogs and cats get protection from abuse, legally and morally.  They don't fret about being squashed and they feel loved.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 20, 2013, 08:51:26 AM
Say there is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do? You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?

On those occasions, God has given me the peace to know He will "Take Care Of The Situation".  Then He has instantly taken care of the situation, either as I had in mind, or way better than I had imagined. 

Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question.  I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it.  What does your god do? You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?

I KNOW the point of your question, do I have control over what God does.
I do not.   
I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on June 20, 2013, 09:22:09 AM
I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.

Just a random thought, if I were a God I'd be looking for something a bit more interesting than submissive dependents to spend an eternity with  ;D
I'd want them to self-sufficient, be a bit argumentative at times, inventive, spontaneous, and full of witty banter .... like:"Hey God, why the long face today, you gettin' bored with all this constant soul music up here?"  ;D
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 22, 2013, 10:34:05 AM
Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question.  I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it.  What does your god do? You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?

I KNOW the point of your question, do I have control over what God does.
I do not.   
I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.

Actually, you do NOT know the point of my question, because you are still not addressing it.  Or perhaps you DO get the point, and that is WHY you aren't addressing it. 

It's very simple, Sky.  IS the answer to these two questions going to be the same, or different.  That's all you have to say - "same", or "different".

There is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do?
You do not  pray for it.  What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 26, 2013, 08:43:12 AM
Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question.  I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it.  What does your god do? You do not pray for it.  What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?

I KNOW the point of your question, do I have control over what God does.
I do not.   
I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.

Actually, you do NOT know the point of my question, because you are still not addressing it.  Or perhaps you DO get the point, and that is WHY you aren't addressing it. 

It's very simple, Sky.  IS the answer to these two questions going to be the same, or different.  That's all you have to say - "same", or "different".

There is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do?
You do not  pray for it.  What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same.  I'm no prophet so that's my view, not God's.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 26, 2013, 08:46:02 AM
I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.

Just a random thought, if I were a God I'd be looking for something a bit more interesting than submissive dependents to spend an eternity with  ;D
I'd want them to self-sufficient, be a bit argumentative at times, inventive, spontaneous, and full of witty banter .... like:"Hey God, why the long face today, you gettin' bored with all this constant soul music up here?"  ;D

Exactly.  You'd want people that were there by choice.
Not ones that you moved their mouths to say nice words to you all day, just like you made them do it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 26, 2013, 09:18:02 AM
Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same.  I'm no prophet so that's my view, not God's.

So prayer changes nothing?  Has no influence on god?  What god wants to happen, will happen, regardless of our thoughts and wishes.

Does that extend to actions as well?  If we take an action that goes against what god wants for us, will he "rebalance" the universe (for want of a better word) to get things back on track?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 26, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same.  I'm no prophet so that's my view, not God's.

So prayer changes nothing?  Has no influence on god?  What god wants to happen, will happen, regardless of our thoughts and wishes.

Does that extend to actions as well?  If we take an action that goes against what god wants for us, will he "rebalance" the universe (for want of a better word) to get things back on track?

God only changes the person praying.  All other "answers" to prayer are already set in motion before a person even plans to pray about them.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 27, 2013, 03:12:52 AM
Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same.  I'm no prophet so that's my view, not God's.

So prayer changes nothing?  Has no influence on god?  What god wants to happen, will happen, regardless of our thoughts and wishes.

Does that extend to actions as well?  If we take an action that goes against what god wants for us, will he "rebalance" the universe (for want of a better word) to get things back on track?

God only changes the person praying.  All other "answers" to prayer are already set in motion before a person even plans to pray about them.

Hang on a minute.  You appear now to be saying that god DOES take different actions if a person prays, or does not, by making changes within the person praying?  Is that right?  That god will do one thing to a person if they pray, but not do it if they do not?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on June 27, 2013, 04:50:59 AM
God only changes the person praying.  All other "answers" to prayer are already set in motion before a person even plans to pray about them.
Promoting this concept is a heinous crime against human potential. The act of prayer, in this sense, is nothing more than convincing oneself to obsequiously accept circumstances and be content with the world as it is - not to look to fix it.  It's the justification of a lazy alternative - taking away the drive to seek change and to use creativity and initiative to find solutions.  It's prayerful people saying to themselves: "Don't complain, don't worry, just accept it, God knows better, it's all for a reason, let God's will be done, Amen!"

Quote
Luke 23:46: Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.

A perfectly evolved idea to dull humans into a frame of mind that clergy can exploit.
Hell no!  It's suffocatingly pathetic.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 27, 2013, 08:30:57 AM
God only changes the person praying.  All other "answers" to prayer are already set in motion before a person even plans to pray about them.
Promoting this concept is a heinous crime against human potential. The act of prayer, in this sense, is nothing more than convincing oneself to obsequiously accept circumstances and be content with the world as it is - not to look to fix it.  It's the justification of a lazy alternative - taking away the drive to seek change and to use creativity and initiative to find solutions.  It's prayerful people saying to themselves: "Don't complain, don't worry, just accept it, God knows better, it's all for a reason, let God's will be done, Amen!"

Quote
Luke 23:46: Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.

A perfectly evolved idea to dull humans into a frame of mind that clergy can exploit.
Hell no!  It's suffocatingly pathetic.

I don't listen to clergy, so your point misses me. 
There is no benefit to being lazy.  God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.
It's pretty draining.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mrjason on June 27, 2013, 08:34:57 AM
God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.
It's pretty draining.

I can't really get my head round this. Are you saying that you have to ask god for something that he wants?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on June 27, 2013, 09:55:11 AM
I don't listen to clergy, so your point misses me. 
Of course you don't listen to clergy  &)  You alone on the entire planet are the only OneTrueChristian TM

There is no benefit to being lazy.  God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
I'm going to pass on commenting on this point because I don't want to trivialize amputation and suicide - I'm not prepared to be that cruel in the name of reason.

Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
How fucking marvellous of a loving God to make His encrypted truth so hard to crack - what's a low IQ person or Downs Syndrome person going to do about that?  :?

First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Tried that - I mean it seriously and sincerely. 

Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
Well I don't think this is correct or fair - all I asked for was the truth, not for magic or healings.  I repeatedly asked for faith - many times over - I remember the tears running down my face.  Jesus did say:
Quote
Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Nothing happened!

After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.
It's pretty draining.
Well that's true - it is "draining".  I'm here to tell you that it took many many years for me to recover from all the "draining", to regain my sense of self, restore my internal locus of control, rebuild my self-respect.  I count myself lucky to have escaped.  So many of my friends and family have fallen victim to the mass hysteria of the delusion, and are now trapped by false guilt and cruel lies - play-acting the outward signs of faith - trapped and diminished by fear.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Astreja on June 27, 2013, 05:36:51 PM
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.
It's pretty draining.

And not a particularly good way of managing things, either.  Heck, if I run out of transcription jobs to type I just drop a quick e-mail to My supervisor and she gets back to Me with more work within a minute or two.  If the clarinet section in the band is having trouble parsing the rhythms in a tricky passage, we wave at the Music Director and he walks us through it right then and there.

Why should mortals have to contort their brains and trash their own sanity and self-esteem in order to figure out what a god really, really wants?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 28, 2013, 04:30:33 AM
There is no benefit to being lazy.  God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

But you've said that god does the same thing whether you pray for it or not - so all those lines make no sense - especially the one I bolded.  Because if god does what he does regardless of our thoughts and prayers, you do not have to give up ANYTHING, do ANYTHING for god's will to happen.  He does it regardless, you said.

So I can make no sense of what you have said in those lines, sorry. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 29, 2013, 07:11:53 AM
There is no benefit to being lazy.  God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

But you've said that god does the same thing whether you pray for it or not - so all those lines make no sense - especially the one I bolded.  Because if god does what he does regardless of our thoughts and prayers, you do not have to give up ANYTHING, do ANYTHING for god's will to happen.  He does it regardless, you said.  So I can make no sense of what you have said in those lines, sorry.

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way?   I explain that my prayers were for my wife.
She didn't pray, she got the benefit.  This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. 
As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet.  I can't see into things before they happen, or see God working
without my request. 

Every minute of life I get is a gift from God.  Being thankful is better than not.  Even If I don't give thanks
continuously or ask for another minute.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 29, 2013, 07:19:11 AM
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.
It's pretty draining.

And not a particularly good way of managing things, either.  Heck, if I run out of transcription jobs to type I just drop a quick e-mail to My supervisor and she gets back to Me with more work within a minute or two.  If the clarinet section in the band is having trouble parsing the rhythms in a tricky passage, we wave at the Music Director and he walks us through it right then and there.

Why should mortals have to contort their brains and trash their own sanity and self-esteem in order to figure out what a god really, really wants?

You'll find that self-esteem as humanism sees it doesn't work.    Drug lords have very high self-esteem.  So do the Dictators of countries.  They think very highly of themselves and are not suffering from low self esteem.   You may know some very proud people.  They think they are all that.  Do you admire them?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 29, 2013, 07:29:21 AM
Well that's true - it is "draining".  I'm here to tell you that it took many many years for me to recover from all the "draining", to regain my sense of self, restore my internal locus of control, rebuild my self-respect.  I count myself lucky to have escaped.  So many of my friends and family have fallen victim to the mass hysteria of the delusion, and are now trapped by false guilt and cruel lies - play-acting the outward signs of faith - trapped and diminished by fear.

I do not disagree with your observations.  There are leaders of churches that do not have a relationship with God and are as lost as other seekers.  Perhaps even the majority of church leaders.  Ad if they don't have an interactive relationship with God, they certainly can't lead other to one.   Being play actors themselves, that's the message others learn.   The leaders feel guilty for teaching about what they do not know.   Imagine the mind of a child molester giving a sermon.  That's got to mess up a lot of minds.   I hate to pick on child molesters.  Every preacher is a sinner in some way.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 29, 2013, 07:44:25 AM
God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.
It's pretty draining.

I can't really get my head round this. Are you saying that you have to ask god for something that he wants?

You have the opportunity to request help from God.  With a lot of effort you can subdue your own ego and God "will text you a message about" what He has in store for you.   That's a way to describe it.  It's not a voice, in my experience.  It's a thought that you recognize as a separate voice or person or thought.   Sometimes there is no message except " OK.  I got your message.  It's already been taken care of."    In that next few seconds.....it's taken care of.

The gift for you is answered prayer from God.  Anybody watching has no clue what happened.  To them it's just the normal turn of events.  Only you know that the events happening in front of you are a response to your requests for help.   But they don't come until you stop asking and turn everything over to God.  So you have to use your "self" or "ego" to ask, then you have to put it all away and "let God" do His thing as He had planned.   It's amazing and humbling to experience.  And "Peace that passes understanding" just as the songs say.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 29, 2013, 07:53:11 AM
I don't listen to clergy, so your point misses me. 
Of course you don't listen to clergy  &)  You alone on the entire planet are the only OneTrueChristian TM

I am one person who has a relationship with God.  Mine may be different that what other people have.
But the reason I have it is from seeing others who have it.  Not any particular faith, or denomination,
or even religion.  Not church leaders in particular, or church attendees.  But here and there, a person
of some faith that has found peace as a result of a relationship with the true God.

Not bible thumpers, or preachers, or even Christians in particular.  But people at peace with God.
They showed me the way whether they knew it or not.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on June 29, 2013, 09:05:52 AM
I am one person who has a relationship with God.  Mine may be different that what other people have.
But the reason I have it is from seeing others who have it.

I would have thought the reason for having a personal relationship with God is that you have a personal relationship with God.  :o
Not that you are emulating the behaviors of others who claim to have a personal relationship with God.

I tried hard, God didn't come through.  Mother Theresa for all her faults was at least honest on this score:

Quote
Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear.
— Mother Teresa to the Rev. Michael Van Der Peet, September 1979

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1655720,00.html#ixzz2Xc7mmD1s
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Astreja on June 30, 2013, 12:44:26 AM
You'll find that self-esteem as humanism sees it doesn't work.    Drug lords have very high self-esteem.  So do the Dictators of countries.  They think very highly of themselves and are not suffering from low self esteem.   You may know some very proud people.  They think they are all that.  Do you admire them?

I assess people by their behaviour, SW, not for how they feel about themselves.  That's why I do admire proud people who do good things, and do not admire drug lords or dictators.

You would probably find Me to be insufferably proud:  I've been involved in the arts (music, writing, sculpture, painting, digital art, recording and TV production) since I was a kid.  I have art and writing on the Internet, a massive dragon sculpture on My front lawn, and play in 3 bands.  My driving record is excellent.  My credit rating is pretty darned good, I have a positive net worth in the area of $150K, and I'm just a couple of years away from paying off My second house.  I had a 4.375 GPA when I studied business administration, SAT scores in the high 700s, and 100% in high school geometry.  I won first-place trophies in black belt kata and kumite in martial arts tournaments in the 1980s and even had My name listed in the regional rankings in Karate Illustrated.  I have a kick-ass job in medical transcription at a hospital, and I'm the staff go-to girl when a newbie is trying to figure out a word.

In light of all that, being a goddess is somewhat anticlimactic.   ;)

But yes, damn skippy I admire people with high self-esteem.  They are the ones who got us out of the muck and drafty huts of our ancestors, because they thought we deserved better.  They are the future of humanity, not a bunch of sad priests running around trying to convince us that we're fit only to be kindling for the fires of hell.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on June 30, 2013, 01:14:51 AM
There is no benefit to being lazy.  God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
First you have to humble yourself to ask.   Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

But you've said that god does the same thing whether you pray for it or not - so all those lines make no sense - especially the one I bolded.  Because if god does what he does regardless of our thoughts and prayers, you do not have to give up ANYTHING, do ANYTHING for god's will to happen.  He does it regardless, you said.  So I can make no sense of what you have said in those lines, sorry.

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way?   I explain that my prayers were for my wife.
She didn't pray, she got the benefit.  This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. 
As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet.  I can't see into things before they happen, or see God working
without my request. 

So what you are saying is:

You have no clue how your god really operates.
You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.

Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.

It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting.  "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".

I've noticed this quite often.  Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.

If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Graybeard on June 30, 2013, 05:51:14 AM
I think this sums up religious belief of all sorts and shades:

God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
[…] you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.

Imagine a bus route that winds up and down streets through a town.

You choose a spot at random and wait for a bus. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. No bus comes.
You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus comes but stops 150 yards from you and you miss it.
No bus, and the bus stopping far away from you, happens many times. You humble yourself and keep finding new streets and places and you keep wishing and wishing.
You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus arrives exactly where you are waiting and you can get on. Surely the bus has heard you!

No, it hasn't... you are having no effect on it by standing there wishing for it to arrive. The bus is going to follow its route come what may.

When it does arrive, you think you have had an effect on the bus and its route; but you haven’t.

The bus on its route is just the same as the future, sometimes, on very rare occasions, the future will turn out precisely as you want it; sometimes it will be pretty close to what you want but still not what you want, but most of the time it is nothing like the future you wished for.

The point is that all gods operate like this – they are the mysterious bus route. And all religions tell you that they know where the bus stops are, but they have no more idea than you; and you and they are wrong far more times than you are right.

Since mankind started thinking, he has tried to work out the bus route. It is only since the Renaissance that he has found that there are patterns to the world (the bus routes): these are defined by real knowledge of the way the world works. It has nothing to do with imaginary beings in the sky. We now know many of the bus routes and we know that none of them are run by gods.

You can continue to stand in a random place in the street and pray for a bus to arrive, or you can use the knowledge that mankind has gained over the years and (i) find the right place to stand or (ii) work out the chances of a bus arriving where you are standing.



 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 07:49:04 AM
I think this sums up religious belief of all sorts and shades:

God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.
Figuring out what God wants is hard work!  Very very hard. 
[…] you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.
Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.
After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.
Imagine a bus route that winds up and down streets through a town.You choose a spot at random and wait for a bus. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. No bus comes.You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus comes but stops 150 yards from you and you miss it.No bus, and the bus stopping far away from you, happens many times. You humble yourself and keep finding new streets and places and you keep wishing and wishing.
You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus arrives exactly where you are waiting and you can get on. Surely the bus has heard you!No, it hasn't... you are having no effect on it by standing there wishing for it to arrive. The bus is going to follow its route come what may.When it does arrive, you think you have had an effect on the bus and its route; but you haven’t.The bus on its route is just the same as the future, sometimes, on very rare occasions, the future will turn out precisely as you want it; sometimes it will be pretty close to what you want but still not what you want, but most of the time it is nothing like the future you wished for.The point is that all gods operate like this – they are the mysterious bus route. And all religions tell you that they know where the bus stops are, but they have no more idea than you; and you and they are wrong far more times than you are right.Since mankind started thinking, he has tried to work out the bus route. It is only since the Renaissance that he has found that there are patterns to the world (the bus routes): these are defined by real knowledge of the way the world works. It has nothing to do with imaginary beings in the sky. We now know many of the bus routes and we know that none of them are run by gods.You can continue to stand in a random place in the street and pray for a bus to arrive, or you can use the knowledge that mankind has gained over the years and (i) find the right place to stand or (ii) work out the chances of a bus arriving where you are standing.

That's interesting.  Perhaps I mentioned the bus incident earlier. 

I was on the wrong side of Seattle and the bus was leaving for Canada.  I got on the wrong street and was lost.
Time was ticking away and the bus would be leaving in 10 minutes but I had about 20 minutes of walking left.
I was panicking.  I was on a bus route but no street busses were showing up.   I was running block to block and
feeling more lost.  As time ticked down to zero, I just stopped and prayed for a person to step out of a building
and offer me a ride to the bus station.  Then I went back to jogging.   Time was up.  I stopped again, and asked and asked.
Finally 5 minutes late, I just stopped and asked God to handle the entire situation.  I was exhausted and nearly in tears.

In that one instant where I finally gave up the situation into His hands, a person exited their apartment, crossed in front of me
and got into their car.  I asked him for a ride to the bus station.  He gladly offered.  Riding in his car I felt a peace come over me.  My anxiety was gone and I knew everything had been taken care of.  I was 5 minutes late, but fully at peace
knowing all was fine.   I chatted with the driver about me and my reason for visiting Seattle.  He missed the turn.  The road turned into the espressway.  "No problem" I said.  10 minutes late.   Next exit was closed.   "When you get the chance to go back is fine"  I said.    20 minutes late we got back to the bus station.   I bought my ticket at the counter 30 minutes late and jogged to the bus.   The driver was just finishing boarding the last passenger and was putting the last bag in as I walked up.
"Yep, we're running a bit late today, your just in time!" the driver said.  "I'm glad.  I was lost, but I found the way" I said.

When all was said and done, the PEACE I experienced was the real miracle.  Without that, it would have been just another day.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 07:59:17 AM

So what you are saying is:You have no clue how your god really operates.You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting.  "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".I've noticed this quite often.  Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?

No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 30, 2013, 08:03:40 AM
No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

It's actually very simple and doesn't require you travel down two timelines, like you suggest (although that would be cool). Get a group of people, pray for half of them, don't pray for the other half, and see what happens.
Oh, wait; it's already been done: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/15/study-concludes-intercessory-prayer-doesnt-work-christians-twist-the-results/
Any worthwhile comments?
EDIT: If you need more evidence, simply google stories about people who prayed for their children when they were sick and they died anyway.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 08:07:50 AM
You'll find that self-esteem as humanism sees it doesn't work.    Drug lords have very high self-esteem.  So do the Dictators of countries.  They think very highly of themselves and are not suffering from low self esteem.   You may know some very proud people.  They think they are all that.  Do you admire them?

I assess people by their behaviour, SW, not for how they feel about themselves.  That's why I do admire proud people who do good things, and do not admire drug lords or dictators.

You would probably find Me to be insufferably proud:  I've been involved in the arts (music, writing, sculpture, painting, digital art, recording and TV production) since I was a kid.  I have art and writing on the Internet, a massive dragon sculpture on My front lawn, and play in 3 bands.  My driving record is excellent.  My credit rating is pretty darned good, I have a positive net worth in the area of $150K, and I'm just a couple of years away from paying off My second house.  I had a 4.375 GPA when I studied business administration, SAT scores in the high 700s, and 100% in high school geometry.  I won first-place trophies in black belt kata and kumite in martial arts tournaments in the 1980s and even had My name listed in the regional rankings in Karate Illustrated.  I have a kick-ass job in medical transcription at a hospital, and I'm the staff go-to girl when a newbie is trying to figure out a word.

In light of all that, being a goddess is somewhat anticlimactic.   ;)

But yes, damn skippy I admire people with high self-esteem.  They are the ones who got us out of the muck and drafty huts of our ancestors, because they thought we deserved better.  They are the future of humanity, not a bunch of sad priests running around trying to convince us that we're fit only to be kindling for the fires of hell.
Art is the salvation of society.   I feel bad for the priests as well if they've not found peace with God.   
Many have not.  And I feel for you as well if you've not found peace with God.  My impression is that your not at peace.   
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 08:12:42 AM
No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

It's actually very simple and doesn't require you travel down two timelines, like you suggest. Get a group of people, pray for half of them, don't pray for the other half, and see what happens.
Oh, wait; it's already been done: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/15/study-concludes-intercessory-prayer-doesnt-work-christians-twist-the-results/
Any worthwhile comments?

As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have no
idea that an event is in response to prayer.  To observers an answered prayer looks like
nothing special at all.  They don't know someone has requested help.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 08:17:50 AM
No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

It's actually very simple and doesn't require you travel down two timelines, like you suggest (although that would be cool). Get a group of people, pray for half of them, don't pray for the other half, and see what happens.
Oh, wait; it's already been done: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/15/study-concludes-intercessory-prayer-doesnt-work-christians-twist-the-results/
Any worthwhile comments?  EDIT: If you need more evidence, simply google stories about people who prayed for their children when they were sick and they died anyway.

People would like for each baby to live pain-free lives until wrinkles start to show at 60 then die in their sleep. 
God does not follow that same agenda.
My own evidence trumps what other write.   
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on June 30, 2013, 08:19:51 AM
As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have no
idea that an event is in response to prayer.  To observers an answered prayer looks like
nothing special at all.  They don't know someone has requested help.

I specifically asked for a worthwhile comment. Were you confused?
Every single prayer for something that can't be cured without medication has failed. This includes studies and non-studies where people simply pray rather than get medical help. If people prayed and got medical help, it worked. If people just got medical help without prayer, it worked. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone with an IQ above 9 why that is.

People would like for each baby to live pain-free lives until wrinkles start to show at 60 then die in their sleep.

So your god wants people to suffer? Sounds like a swell guy.

God does not follow that same agenda.
My own evidence trumps what other write.   

You have no evidence, genius. All you have are made-up stories (exempli gratia: the Bible) that don't prove dick.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 08:22:47 AM
I am one person who has a relationship with God.  Mine may be different that what other people have.
But the reason I have it is from seeing others who have it.

I would have thought the reason for having a personal relationship with God is that you have a personal relationship with God.  :o  Not that you are emulating the behaviors of others who claim to have a personal relationship with God.

I don't have relationships with people because I'm emulating other people.
I do it because it's what we are designed to do. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on June 30, 2013, 06:42:49 PM
I don't have relationships with people because I'm emulating other people.
I do it because it's what we are designed to do.

So you claim to be "designed" to tune into a personal invisible sky daddy you call God? :?

Oh sure, of course you are ... like
millions of Hindus tune into Ganesha the elephant-headed god ...

(http://www.nicehdwallpaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/god-ganesha-lambodar-hd-desktop-wallpaper.jpg)

Funny that people bounded by geography and time seem "designed" to believe in the same gods that other people around them can be seen to be believing.  It's not so popular to be tuned into Zeus or Odin or Beelzebub these days  :laugh:
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Astreja on June 30, 2013, 07:20:29 PM
Art is the salvation of society.   I feel bad for the priests as well if they've not found peace with God.   Many have not.  And I feel for you as well if you've not found peace with God.  My impression is that your not at peace.

I choose, SW, to eschew "peace" because it is passion, not complacency, that drives My work.  I am as satisfied as I want to be and as satisfied as I need to be.

Your alleged god has no role to play in My art, and that is how it should be.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 10:25:45 PM
Art is the salvation of society.   I feel bad for the priests as well if they've not found peace with God.   Many have not.  And I feel for you as well if you've not found peace with God.  My impression is that your not at peace.

I choose, SW, to eschew "peace" because it is passion, not complacency, that drives My work.  I am as satisfied as I want to be and as satisfied as I need to be.  Your alleged god has no role to play in My art, and that is how it should be.

Peace with God is not the same as complacency.  But some do have that belief.
I hear much resentment and anger and unrest.  I feel bad about that.
I have no problem with unbelievers.  I'm not responsible for their peace.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on June 30, 2013, 10:30:07 PM
I don't have relationships with people because I'm emulating other people.
I do it because it's what we are designed to do.

So you claim to be "designed" to tune into a personal invisible sky daddy you call God? :?

Oh sure, of course you are ... like
millions of Hindus tune into Ganesha the elephant-headed god ...
Funny that people bounded by geography and time seem "designed" to believe in the same gods that other people around them can be seen to be believing.  It's not so popular to be tuned into Zeus or Odin or Beelzebub these days  :laugh:

My scriptures I follow are not required to know The Creator of the Universe. 
Any of those followers have the same opportunity as me to know God.
Jesus said that those who did not hear His words and believed were 
even better off than those who did.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on June 30, 2013, 11:30:32 PM
My scriptures I follow are
What makes them your scriptures?  Were they handed to you personally by Jesus?  Did Jesus put a fluoro yellow highlighter through the bits of scripture relevant to you alone?
Or where you exposed to them because you wanted to emulate other people who referred you to them?
Have you personally read and rejected the Shruti Vedas?
Why don't you follow the Quran?
What if you'd been born in India or Pakistan ... what is the probability you'd have lucked onto what you happen to call: "my scriptures"?

not required to know The Creator of the Universe. 
Just as well, because a close reading of the bible rules out that the human authors knew anything consistent about the Creator ... well nothing that stands up to scrutiny, that we might know their dreamings had a basis in truth.  You know full well that Eve was not made from a rib.
And without the bible people have come to believe other weird stuff about the Creator - many Australian Aborigines reckon the Creator was a Rainbow Serpent.  How do you know they are wrong - their culture is at least 40 000 years old?

Any of those followers have the same opportunity as me to know God.
You have the same opportunity to know Ganesha - why do you not follow Ganesha?

Jesus said that those who did not hear His words and believed were 
even better off than those who did.
Then why did Jesus utter words at all if it compromises those who hear them?
Is God so desperate for souls in heaven that he's happy to harvest those who are not "better off" for having heard Jesus?  Like a second grade crop?  Otherwise what does it mean - are there more comfy sofas in heaven for the "better off" ones?
And what about the countless millions who lived before Jesus and had no myths to believe in, or inherited the wrong myths to believe in?

But more to the point of this topic, if people are "better off" for not hearing Jesus and then believing, why does it say in the bible:

Quote
Acts 4:12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved (JESUS).

Quote
John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the Llfe. No one can come to the Father except through Me.

Skywriting, do you see that your statement is contradicted by scriptures - by Jesus himself?

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Astreja on June 30, 2013, 11:49:46 PM
Peace with God is not the same as complacency.      But some do have that belief.
Existential fallacy:  Undefined entity "God."  At this point it is not possible to tell if "peace with God" is or is not the same as complacency.  First we have to establish that your god actually exists, and then we can start talking about qualitative differences in emotional states.

Quote
I hear much resentment and anger and unrest.  I feel bad about that.  I have no problem with unbelievers.  I'm not responsible for their peace.

I'll grant you 2 out of 3 on that one, SW.

Yes, I'm resentful and angry -- At religions and the abuses their practitioners have committed.  I have no particular resentment or anger directed at your god, because to Me it's an old Middle Eastern mythical character.  Even in My polytheistic days that branch of mythology didn't call to Me:  The characters were unappealing and heavy-handed, and the stories dreary.

But unrest?  No more than the average person.

And no one said you had to be responsible for someone else's peace.  If you don't have the power to make it happen, you also don't have the responsibility.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on July 01, 2013, 04:48:51 AM

So what you are saying is:You have no clue how your god really operates.You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting.  "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".I've noticed this quite often.  Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?

No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

Oh, you DO like leaving out chunks of the conversation, don't you?  Let's go back and read your last post, that I was responding to there:

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way?   I explain that my prayers were for my wife.
She didn't pray, she got the benefit.  This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. 
As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet.  I can't see into things before they happen, or see God working
without my request. 

THAT is my point.  You have gone on record as saying "I don't know".  "I can't know".  Hence, my question as to why I should care one iota about your god, since you are unable to give any guarantees.

And - as I have come to expect - you chose NOT to answer that point (unsurprising, as its difficult for a believer to address).  Instead, I get the bleating "well, how CAN I know"?

Exactly.  You CAN'T know.  Ergo, you DON'T know.  And if YOU don't know, why should I give pay the slightest attention to any claims you happen to make about what your god may or may not do?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on July 01, 2013, 04:55:20 AM
As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have no idea that an event is in response to prayer.  To observers an answered prayer looks like nothing special at all.  They don't know someone has requested help.

And why would they?  Remember my question a few days ago?

There is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do?
You do not  pray for it.  What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same

You went on record, as clearly as could be, to say that the events following a prayer would unfold the SAME as if the prayer had not happened.  Which means that any events that transpire are NOT the result of the prayer, since - as YOU confirmed - god would ensure things happened the same either way.

Or are you now going to do a 180 and say that god DOES act differently if a prayer is, or is not, offered?  Can you see why your answers can be so confusing, when you seem to find it so hard to give an answer that applies for more than one post?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 04, 2013, 12:00:09 AM
As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have no idea that an event is in response to prayer.  To observers an answered prayer looks like nothing special at all.  They don't know someone has requested help.

And why would they?  Remember my question a few days ago?

There is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do?
You do not  pray for it.  What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same

You went on record, as clearly as could be, to say that the events following a prayer would unfold the SAME as if the prayer had not happened.  Which means that any events that transpire are NOT the result of the prayer, since - as YOU confirmed - god would ensure things happened the same either way.

Or are you now going to do a 180 and say that god DOES act differently if a prayer is, or is not, offered?  Can you see why your answers can be so confusing, when you seem to find it so hard to give an answer that applies for more than one post?

There are two lines of events that transpire.  One is my conversation with God about a problem, Him steering me to pray the correct way, me following His will,  Him sending me the message that I've been heard, then the prayer being answered exactly as I requested, or even better.

The other chain of events is what an observer would see and comment on: 
(http://cdn.vanillaforums.com/bytebin.vanillaforums.com/thumbnails/FileUpload/d0/4f6d2cf4e30c9f4dbdfd71fa43342d.jpg)

It's been said that we can't change God. Based on that, the answer is "Same."

In my experience, God listens even before I ask, and provides before I ask. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 04, 2013, 12:11:31 AM

So what you are saying is:You have no clue how your god really operates.You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting.  "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".I've noticed this quite often.  Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?

No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

Oh, you DO like leaving out chunks of the conversation, don't you?  Let's go back and read your last post, that I was responding to there:

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way?   I explain that my prayers were for my wife.
She didn't pray, she got the benefit.  This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. 
As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet.  I can't see into things before they happen, or see God working
without my request. 

THAT is my point.  You have gone on record as saying "I don't know".  "I can't know".  Hence, my question as to why I should care one iota about your god, since you are unable to give any guarantees.

And - as I have come to expect - you chose NOT to answer that point (unsurprising, as its difficult for a believer to address).  Instead, I get the bleating "well, how CAN I know"?

Exactly.  You CAN'T know.  Ergo, you DON'T know.  And if YOU don't know, why should I give pay the slightest attention to any claims you happen to make about what your god may or may not do?


(**answering your question**)

It depends of the guarantees you are requesting. 
If you want things to go your way, you are screwed.

If you choose to trust that the Creator of the Universe has your back,
then you are guaranteed that he has your back and will not let you down. 

Faith is required, proof is not given ahead of time.

Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on July 04, 2013, 03:54:00 AM
Let me be sure that I have understood your position correctly.

You went on record, as clearly as could be, to say that the events following a prayer would unfold the SAME as if the prayer had not happened.  Which means that any events that transpire are NOT the result of the prayer, since - as YOU confirmed - god would ensure things happened the same either way.
It's been said that we can't change God. Based on that, the answer is "Same."
In my experience, God listens even before I ask, and provides before I ask.

Okay.  So your position is that - whether you pray or not - your god will do the same thing (that thing being "what god wants to do").  You confirm that here:

[It depends of the guarantees you are requesting. 
If you want things to go your way, you are screwed.

If you choose to trust that the Creator of the Universe has your back,
then you are guaranteed that he has your back and will not let you down. 

Whether you pray or not, whether you believe and trust or not, what god wants to happen is what will transpire.  Okay, fine.  Prayer is irrelevant, your wishes are irrelevant, what happens is what your god wants to happen, end of.

But if that is the case, then:

Faith is required.....

Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe.

So again: I'm confused. 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 04, 2013, 08:47:52 AM
Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Mrjason on July 04, 2013, 09:01:01 AM
Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

What are you on about? First you say that god created earth for humans and now god is not the god(by which I read creator) of this world. Which is it? Your post sounds like an attempt at "woo"
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 04, 2013, 09:24:46 AM
Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

What are you on about? First you say that god created earth for humans and now god is not the god(by which I read creator) of this world. Which is it? Your post sounds like an attempt at "woo"

This world is different than the original created one.  Man was banished from the original garden east of Eden where God walked with man.  The Devil is the god of this world.

Most people notice that this world is not all that kind.  (Jeffery Dahmer was a neighbor of mine.)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on July 04, 2013, 09:39:45 AM
This world is different than the original created one.  Man was banished from the original garden east of Eden where God walked with man.  The Devil is the god of this world.

SkyWriting, you should have pointed that out to Guybrush Threepwood when he was claiming how all the wonders of this world are a testimony to God the Creator   :laugh:

How does God get anything done on earth if the Devil is the god here?  How does God take care us in the Devil's jurisdiction?
Jesus contradicted you by the way:
Quote
Matthew 6:26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: naemhni on July 04, 2013, 11:09:52 AM
God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on July 05, 2013, 04:06:35 AM
Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

And that is on topic how?  At best, it negates the point you have been apparently making.

If god does exactly what god wants, whether we pray or believe or what, then for him to be having a conversation, a relationship with me (or anyone) is entirely in his hands.  If we are not in a relationship, it can ONLY be the fault of the omnipotent being who can and will arrange reality to conform to his own wishes.

But before we go off on that tangent, can we PLEASE clear up this question, once and for all.

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

Given that this would seem to be a fairly basic point of theology, I'm amazed that you haven't considered the question enough to give a clear answer.  But even if you hadn't considered it before coming here, I'd have hoped that - by this stage in the conversation - we'd have established a clear "yes or no" answer to the question.  The fact that we haven't suggests that you really don't have any idea how your god behaves - and if you have no idea, then any claim you make about it are baseless.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 07, 2013, 01:55:05 PM
Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

And that is on topic how?  At best, it negates the point you have been apparently making.

If god does exactly what god wants, whether we pray or believe or what, then for him to be having a conversation, a relationship with me (or anyone) is entirely in his hands.  If we are not in a relationship, it can ONLY be the fault of the omnipotent being who can and will arrange reality to conform to his own wishes.

But before we go off on that tangent, can we PLEASE clear up this question, once and for all.

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No.  Never.  Not in a million years.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 07, 2013, 02:05:03 PM
This world is different than the original created one.  Man was banished from the original garden east of Eden where God walked with man.  The Devil is the god of this world.

SkyWriting, you should have pointed that out to Guybrush Threepwood when he was claiming how all the wonders of this world are a testimony to God the Creator   :laugh:

How does God get anything done on earth if the Devil is the god here?  How does God take care us in the Devil's jurisdiction?
Jesus contradicted you by the way:
Quote
Matthew 6:26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

He does not take care of our physical situation other than to assure us he has the long term solution.  The short term solution is to assure us he has the long term solution.  Say, for example, two people are on a jet that is spinning out of control.  Both pray for salvation from this situation.  God assures both that hes everything under His control.  One dies, the other lives.  The one who trusted in God goes to heaven to be with the Creator for eternity.  The pain of death is forgotten and more important, all the mean things the person did or failed to do in life are forgiven and they are at peace with every pain they ever inflicted.

The other person lives and is grateful for the opportunity to serve god further on earth.  Both results are in God's hands and both people come out ahead of where they were.   Prayer always  adds blessing to people's lives, no matter the outcome.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on July 08, 2013, 05:39:58 AM
Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Thank you.  I think I'm now clear.

So, it follows that prayer has NO effect on the world.  Whether you pray, or not; whether you even know there is a problem, or not; your god will do what he does.

To take your example: god was always going to stop the rain at that point in time.  He would have done it whether or not either or both of you prayed or did not pray.  If you'd been bumbling along in a dream and just decided to stop, or if you'd been desperately looking for a dry place for the last 40 miles, god would've done exactly the same thing.  Prayer - or its lack - makes no changes to what your god makes happen.  Great stuff.

Prayer is irrelevant, and god will do to someone exactly what he intends to do to them, whether they are a believer who prays all the time, or an atheist who denies god with his daily porridge.  Glad we've sorted that out.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 07:20:34 AM
Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Thank you.  I think I'm now clear.

So, it follows that prayer has NO effect on the world.  Whether you pray, or not; whether you even know there is a problem, or not; your god will do what he does.

To take your example: god was always going to stop the rain at that point in time.  He would have done it whether or not either or both of you prayed or did not pray.  If you'd been bumbling along in a dream and just decided to stop, or if you'd been desperately looking for a dry place for the last 40 miles, god would've done exactly the same thing.  Prayer - or its lack - makes no changes to what your god makes happen.  Great stuff.

Prayer is irrelevant, and god will do to someone exactly what he intends to do to them, whether they are a believer who prays all the time, or an atheist who denies god with his daily porridge.  Glad we've sorted that out.

I have my prayers answered and am not clear on how it happens.
It has an enormous effect on the people who pray and have their prayers answered. 
The results are never under the control of humans at any time. 
But God will always answer.  Just not under human control.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 07:37:42 AM
God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2013, 07:39:19 AM
Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

You know, most of us here were theists once. Most of those were christians. AFAIK nobody here got your god to listen and respond to their prayers. How do you explain that? And note that claiming we weren't "truthful" or "real christians" will just get you smacked so hard you'll see stars.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 07:50:14 AM
Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

You know, most of us here were theists once. Most of those were christians. AFAIK nobody here got your god to listen and respond to their prayers. How do you explain that? And note that claiming we weren't "truthful" or "real christians" will just get you smacked so hard you'll see stars.

Not humble enough before God.   No particular denomination of faith is required.  I think Christian denominations are particularly poor at teaching prayer.  I've never been to one that taught that prayers will (actually) be answered.  They usually teach prayer then shrug their shoulders.  And I get the impression that faith healers are looney just like others do.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: naemhni on July 08, 2013, 07:55:34 AM
God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

Most of the regulars here will tell you that they were Christians.  When they felt their faith starting to weaken, they did not want to lose it.  Quite the contrary, they were desperate to hang onto it, and they prayed and prayed and prayed for Yahweh to give them strength, or some kind of a sign, or something, to help them keep believing in him.  Yahweh did not answer them.  Which brings me back to my question: what's stopping him?

Never having been a believer myself, that doesn't apply to me, but I can tell you that if Yahweh exists, I absolutely do want to know about it -- I don't like being wrong about anything, whether it's Yahweh's existence or whether Vitamin C helps with a cold.  You cannot therefore state that I have "turned from Yahweh".  I'm right here, ready and willing to hear him if he ever chooses to speak to me, and yet he does not do so.

So, again -- what's stopping him?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2013, 08:04:46 AM
Not humble enough before God.

I should've added "or anything like that" to my short list of excuses.
Put simply, this is a piss-poor excuse for why your god chose[1] to stay silent. Like pianodwarf said, some (I'd go so far as to say "most") of us prayed for signs. Ever been really desperate? Humility is the trademark of a desperate person.

No particular denomination of faith is required.

Bullshit. Per your Bible, your god wants to be worshiped and loved above all else. Sounds like an insecure bully, but that's another story.

I think Christian denominations are particularly poor at teaching prayer.  I've never been to one that taught that prayers will (actually) be answered.

Excuse me?
I have my prayers answered and am not clear on how it happens.
Mind explaining that?

They usually teach prayer then shrug their shoulders.

Not sure what your point is here.

And I get the impression that faith healers are looney just like others do.

I think we can all agree on this.
 1. In a manner of speaking. Non-existent beings can't choose.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 08:06:04 AM
God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

Most of the regulars here will tell you that they were Christians.  When they felt their faith starting to weaken, they did not want to lose it.  Quite the contrary, they were desperate to hang onto it, and they prayed and prayed and prayed for Yahweh to give them strength, or some kind of a sign, or something, to help them keep believing in him.  Yahweh did not answer them.  Which brings me back to my question: what's stopping him?

Never having been a believer myself, that doesn't apply to me, but I can tell you that if Yahweh exists, I absolutely do want to know about it -- I don't like being wrong about anything, whether it's Yahweh's existence or whether Vitamin C helps with a cold.  You cannot therefore state that I have "turned from Yahweh".  I'm right here, ready and willing to hear him if he ever chooses to speak to me, and yet he does not do so.

So, again -- what's stopping him?

If you were walking in the Garden, or were in Heaven, He'd be standing right beside you.  But you are not where He resides.  You are in the world where Satin is god. 

You, being in the wrong place, need to come to Him. 
It's not "fair" being born here but it is what it is.
We must come to Him in humility.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: William on July 08, 2013, 08:48:19 AM
He does not take care of our physical situation other than to assure us he has the long term solution.  The short term solution is to assure us he has the long term solution.

Well this is a fairly rare position to hold because it simply doesn't fit with any mainstream scriptures or evidence.
How do you arrive at that conclusion?  Without cherry picking from scriptures that contain other contradictory statements, and are therefore rendered unreliable.

You are of course entitled to believe in any baseless assertions that take your fancy. Be we are entitled to not take you seriously without evidence or reason.  To convince me, and most people, to give any credence to your beliefs, you'll have to provide some substance we can't refute.  So what are you irrefutable sources for these claims?

 
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 08:56:44 AM
1. He does not take care of our physical situation other than to assure us he has the long term solution.

2.  The short term solution is to assure us he has the long term solution.

Well this is a fairly rare position to hold because it simply doesn't fit with any mainstream scriptures or evidence.
How do you arrive at that conclusion?  Without cherry picking from scriptures that contain other contradictory statements, and are therefore rendered unreliable.

You are of course entitled to believe in any baseless assertions that take your fancy. Be we are entitled to not take you seriously without evidence or reason.  To convince me, and most people, to give any credence to your beliefs, you'll have to provide some substance we can't refute.  So what are you irrefutable sources for these claims?

That we don't see God intervening during a crisis. ( #1)

That people have decided to Trust God for their long term care. 
All the scriptures, plus all followers. (#2 )
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 09:05:35 AM
I should've added "or anything like that" to my short list of excuses.
Put simply, this is a piss-poor excuse for why your god chose[1] to stay silent. Like pianodwarf said, some (I'd go so far as to say "most") of us prayed for signs. Ever been really desperate? Humility is the trademark of a desperate person.
 1. In a manner of speaking. Non-existent beings can't choose.

Correlation is not causation. Error of logic.
Desperate people can be described in many ways. 
"Humility" is not common.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2013, 09:09:32 AM
Correlation is not causation. Error of logic.

AFAIK I did not infer or imply that. Error of reading.
All I did was point out to you why you were wrong. Not surprisingly, you try to cling to it in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

Desperate people can be described in many ways. 
"Humility" is not common.

I was using hyperbole for the sake of the argument. That said, it doesn't mean I was wrong. If you're really desperate, you'll swallow your pride and do what you must to survive. Our instinct for self-preservation is strong.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 09:16:48 AM
Correlation is not causation. Error of logic.

AFAIK I did not infer or imply that. Error of reading.
All I did was point out to you why you were wrong. Not surprisingly, you try to cling to it in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

Desperate people can be described in many ways. 
"Humility" is not common.

I was using hyperbole for the sake of the argument. That said, it doesn't mean I was wrong. If you're really desperate, you'll swallow your pride and do what you must to survive. Our instinct for self-preservation is strong.

As you give no examples, I can't fathom what you are on about.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2013, 09:28:10 AM
As you give no examples, I can't fathom what you are on about.

Ever seen someone begging on the streets? Or praying to and making deals with non-existent gods? Some even pray in tears. I know I did at least once. Those are examples of desperate people.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 09:43:04 AM
As you give no examples, I can't fathom what you are on about.

Ever seen someone begging on the streets? Or praying to and making deals with non-existent gods? Some even pray in tears. I know I did at least once. Those are examples of desperate people.

And there are more outside of the narrow crack in your curtains:

"#16 When criminals get desperate, they don’t care who they attack and they will take everything from you that they can.  For example, three young thugs in the Bronx recently beat the living daylights out of a 64-year-old man and took his wallet, his cellphone and even his Bible."  http://www.infowars.com/lawless-america-20-examples-of-desperate-people-doing-desperate-things/
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2013, 09:48:29 AM
And there are more outside of the narrow crack in your curtains:

"#16 When criminals get desperate, they don’t care who they attack and they will take everything from you that they can.  For example, three young thugs in the Bronx recently beat the living daylights out of a 64-year-old man and took his wallet, his cellphone and even his Bible."  http://www.infowars.com/lawless-america-20-examples-of-desperate-people-doing-desperate-things/

Allow me to quote myself.
If you're really desperate, you'll swallow your pride and do what you must to survive.
Underlined mine.

Get it now?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on July 08, 2013, 10:51:02 AM
I have my prayers answered and am not clear on how it happens.
In short, you don't actually know who is responding to your prayers, or if anyone is responding to them at all, do you?  It could be the "god of this world" doing it instead, or it could simply be your own brain looking for things that it can interpret as "answers to prayer".

Quote from: SkyWriting
It has an enormous effect on the people who pray and have their prayers answered.
I'm sure people believe that it has an enormous effect on them.  But that effect would be the same regardless of whether their prayers were actually being answered, as long as they believed, would it not?

Quote from: SkyWriting
The results are never under the control of humans at any time. 
But God will always answer.  Just not under human control.
But if you're not even sure how your prayers are answered, then how can you claim to know who's actually answering them, or if anyone is?

Honestly, SkyWriting, I think you need to spend some time really thinking this situation through, rather than relying on answers provided by what amounts to blind faith.  Let me pose an example to you to illustrate what I mean.

You claim that this world is governed by the "god of this world", and that people need to reach out and contact God the Creator if they want to have a relationship with him.  But when you do that reaching out, how can you be sure that your efforts are getting through to the right god?  Wouldn't the "god of this world" interfere with such efforts at communication (either by blocking it or by answering it himself)?  Seems to me that you'd have to get your prayers past him first before you could even hope that God the Creator got them.  So there's one problem - you don't actually know if your prayers are being received at all, or who's answering them if they are being received.

Another problem is why God the Creator would exile humans to another god's province in the first place, then set up such a roundabout method by which humans can come back to him.  Seems like a rather excessive response to me.  I mean, when children screw up, their parents punish them, but they don't do so by the equivalent of exile for the very first offense, and certainly not exiling them to live with another family (and thus giving up their rights and authority).

The problem with relying on faith-based answers to these problems and others is that you're basing them not on actual knowledge, but on things you believe but can't be sure about, and that don't hold together when you actually examine them critically.  I mean, the setup you're proposing here is pretty problematic, to say the least.  God the Creator seems to be a pretty pathetic god, actually.  He exiled his 'children' the very first time they ever screwed up, effectively gave them into the keeping of another god, and then...what?  Decided he wanted a relationship with them after all, thus the whole long-distance prayer thing?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 11:37:17 AM
I have my prayers answered and am not clear on how it happens.
In short, you don't actually know who is responding to your prayers, or if anyone is responding to them at all, do you?

Yes.  I had 20 some years to evaluate my answered prayers.
There has not been any doubt about the major incidents.
There is plenty of doubt about "light prayers" not subjected
in earnest.  God hears those, and I have no idea how He answers them.
Those few offered in "hard sweat" and then given up completely are
answered in force and dramatically.

Jesus said "You must pray like this:..."
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 11:54:05 AM
Satan's played a good game at answering your prayers just right to trick you, hasn't he?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 12:59:27 PM
Satan's played a good game at answering your prayers just right to trick you, hasn't he?

As I said, it's not easy to eliminate ones own ego from the prayer.
It's hard work.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 01:08:03 PM
And you can be egotistically proud of that hard work.

Regardless, Satan has done an excellent job of tricking you into thinking you're on the right path, hasn't he?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 01:10:23 PM
And you can be egotistically proud of that hard work.

Regardless, Satan has done an excellent job of tricking you into thinking you're on the right path, hasn't he?

I am grateful, indeed.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 01:35:14 PM
Perfectly duped by Satan.

If you were, how would you be able to tell?  Everything you feel could be a trick.  And after all, you apparently live in his domain.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 01:47:32 PM
Perfectly duped by Satan.

If you were, how would you be able to tell?  Everything you feel could be a trick.  And after all, you apparently live in his domain.

Because you don't reveal your sources, I have no way to dispute your conclusions.
Well done.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
My source for what?

What does what you wrote have to do with how you're able to tell your God-experiences aren't Satan-experiences?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 02:14:40 PM
My source for what?

What does what you wrote have to do with how you're able to tell your God-experiences aren't Satan-experiences?

You said "I apparently" live under the rule of Satan.  I have no experience with this
matter, so I cannot dispute your learned evaluation.  If you say so, I guess.  You
can see what I cannot.  I defer to your better judgment.  : )
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on July 08, 2013, 02:15:16 PM
If you were, how would you be able to tell?  Everything you feel could be a trick.  And after all, you apparently live in his domain.
This is part of what I'm trying to get at as well, SkyWriting.  You can't be sure of anything with just faith, because your faith depends not on what you know, but what you believe.  No different than people who believed in a flat earth with a hemispherical firmament over it like a dome because of the illusions of perspective that make things look like that.  That's why we keep pressing for evidence, for something other than faith, because faith can so easily be wrong.  More than that, it can lead people to misread things that actually occur in the context of that faith so as to further enmesh them in the wrong belief.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on July 08, 2013, 02:17:07 PM
You said "I apparently" live under the rule of Satan.  I have no experience with this
matter, so I cannot dispute your learned evaluation.  If you say so, I guess.  You
can see what I cannot.
You're the one who's been claiming that Satan is the "god of this world".  If he's the god of this world, that means he rules here, correct?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 02:27:20 PM
You said "I apparently" live under the rule of Satan.  I have no experience with this
matter, so I cannot dispute your learned evaluation.  If you say so, I guess.  You
can see what I cannot.
You're the one who's been claiming that Satan is the "god of this world".  If he's the god of this world, that means he rules here, correct?

S does rule the material world.  And that part of me will indeed die.  And has sinned and continues to.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jdawg70 on July 08, 2013, 02:49:54 PM
You said "I apparently" live under the rule of Satan.  I have no experience with this
matter, so I cannot dispute your learned evaluation.  If you say so, I guess.  You
can see what I cannot.
You're the one who's been claiming that Satan is the "god of this world".  If he's the god of this world, that means he rules here, correct?

S does rule the material world.  And that part of me will indeed die.  And has sinned and continues to.
Sky...you're seriously not seeing the contradiction and confusion here?  Really?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on July 08, 2013, 02:59:41 PM
S does rule the material world.  And that part of me will indeed die.  And has sinned and continues to.
Or so you believe.  Which is not the same as actually knowing it and being able to prove it.  Which is the point both Azdgari and I are trying to get across.

For that matter, Satan is the father of lies (as described in the Gospel of John).  If you're right and he is the god of this world, don't you think he'd enjoy leading Christians like you around by the nose, getting you to accept lies as the truth, and otherwise having fun playing games with you and your ilk?  The most effective tool of a con man or a liar is someone who believes them unreservedly, because that person, as far as everyone else knows, is telling the truth.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 07:00:12 PM
You said "I apparently" live under the rule of Satan.  I have no experience with this
matter, so I cannot dispute your learned evaluation.  If you say so, I guess.  You
can see what I cannot.
You're the one who's been claiming that Satan is the "god of this world".  If he's the god of this world, that means he rules here, correct?

S does rule the material world.  And that part of me will indeed die.  And has sinned and continues to.

This is what I was referring to.  I never said you lived under the rule of Satan, I said this:

... And after all, you apparently live in his domain.

As in, on Earth.  Which you yourself said was his domain.

If you're going to spout bullshit, at least be consistent about it.  As it is, you gave me a -1 for taking seriously something you had said earlier.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Umar on July 08, 2013, 11:02:56 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/2Iue2.png)

"22 [...]And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:22

"40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?"  Luke 11:40

"17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

"25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

Any other instances you've found where Jesus contradicts himself?

Have you compared translations and, perhaps, more importantly, have you given any thought to the original Greek in any of these examples?

Don't you think, perhaps, you should?
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Umar on July 08, 2013, 11:04:35 PM
Jesus did go to hell, at least in old Catholic lore.. Google "the Harrowing of Hell."

You may not like it, as it may involve, not so much your preconceived notions.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Umar on July 08, 2013, 11:11:11 PM
Jesus did go to hell, at least in old Catholic lore.. Google "the Harrowing of Hell."

Okay, but was he at any risk from its fires?

Hellfire is a pagan adoption of the apostate Christian church. The Greek term Jesus used was in this case Gehenna, a literal place known in the Hebrew as Geh Hinnom. The Greek Gehenna, and the common modern day Wadi Er-Rabbi. Its a village S and SW of the ancient Jerusalem. I could give you a picture of it if you like.

Here.

(http://www.pathwaymachine.com/images/gehenna.gif)
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Umar on July 08, 2013, 11:12:31 PM

If the Son of Man is the One who comes in Judgment, it is irrational to believe he is the object of the Judgment.

Cool, since he wasn't the object of the judgment, he didn't bare the sin and shame of mankind and the whole sacrifice story is stupid bullshit.. I get what you're saying.. NOT!

Excellent! You most certainly don't get it.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Umar on July 08, 2013, 11:20:30 PM
It's not a contradiction, it's a hypocritical statement.

-Nam

Partly right.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: jaimehlers on July 08, 2013, 11:29:52 PM
Umar, please don't resurrect posts that are over a year old in a discussion.  The people to whom you are responding might not even post here anymore, and there's no telling if they're still interested in the conversation even if they do.

However, I think I will respond to your later response to Brakeman.  Brakeman was clearly making the point that the Jesus story (especially the sacrifice at the end) made no sense considering that Jesus was not the object of the "judgment of sin" or whatever it was.  It's roughly akin to someone who did not commit a crime deliberately paying the penalty for that crime so as to keep everyone else who ever committed that crime (or would commit it in the future) from having to pay the penalty for it.  It's not just in any way, shape, or form.  Indeed, it's the antithesis of justice to punish an innocent for the sake of the guilty.  On top of that, punishing them for all future crimes as well as all past ones - so not only are they being punished for things they didn't do, they're being punished for things they wouldn't have done in the future.

It's even worse if you accept the whole notion of an "original sin" that all people thereafter would be judged for.  It's punishing people for a decision they had no part in simply because of some relationship to a person or people who did.  It would be like punishing me for enslaving black people, or for committing atrocities against Native Americans, simply because past Americans did both.

Two injustices do not cancel each other out.  They never have and they never will, just like you can never add two negative numbers and get closer to 0.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: Anfauglir on July 09, 2013, 02:00:36 AM
Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

Most of the regulars here will tell you that they were Christians.  When they felt their faith starting to weaken, they did not want to lose it.  Quite the contrary, they were desperate to hang onto it, and they prayed and prayed and prayed for Yahweh to give them strength, or some kind of a sign, or something, to help them keep believing in him.  Yahweh did not answer them.  Which brings me back to my question: what's stopping him?
You, being in the wrong place, need to come to Him.  
It's not "fair" being born here but it is what it is.
We must come to Him in humility.

Do you actually READ what people say to you?  Look at those bits I've bolded.  Those people did exxactly what you said they should do - and nothing.
Title: Re: Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself
Post by: SkyWriting on July 09, 2013, 08:14:46 AM