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Dead Zone => The Bottomless Pit => Topic started by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 08:23:40 AM

Title: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 08:23:40 AM
I want to thank Nam for this topic. Here's what Nam says about it -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

I think that's a ridiculous claim - that you have enough knowledge of the consequences of eternal Hell to make such an arrogant claim. As I said - talk on the Internets is cheap. When it comes to reality (if this were true) who here would choose to go to Hell and burn forever?

I wouldn't.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kaziglu bey on June 06, 2012, 08:30:22 AM
That's a difficult question for me. I think that it would be difficult to embrace a God who is so cruel and jealous and hateful. At the same time self preservation would incline me towards worship. If we all get into heaven, maybe we can overthrow him. Hell, he can't even beat iron chariots. And I'm sure those harps could be made into some wicked weapons. You could easily garrote an angel with a harp string. Celestial revolution, anyone?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kin hell on June 06, 2012, 08:34:09 AM
So  does that mean you will be able to deny any sense of morality you may have displayed on this planet and now reallyworship biblegod even though if it exists as biblegod, then it must be the evil incarnate that the bible makes it out to be?

Because worship doesn't mean lip service, or resented lip service, or "if I don't appear to be worshipping I'll go to hell", it means worship.

As in, you will ring peans of praise upon the very thought of biblegod in his heaven, you will sit at it's metaphorical foot and focus your entire being on it so as to laud its existence, you will never have a thought outside of your "slaved" attention to the business of worshipping this evil god.


It seems a very limited false sort of worship that exists only because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

And what a pathetically needy god, if that sort of worship has value to it.




Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 08:34:22 AM
I would burn. I wouldn't enjoy it, and I would regret it after a certain amount of time, but that's life. The right thing isn't always easy to do. I don't bow to anything short of what I consider perfect.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 08:38:24 AM
It seems a very limited false sort of worship that exists only because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

Yep, sure does. But that's the choice you have. We can only speculate, because we can't know what eternal torture is like, but my speculation is that it's not something that you can make a claim of being able to endure with such brazen certainty as Nam does.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 08:39:11 AM
If we all get into heaven, maybe we can overthrow him.

Right. Live to fight another day at the minimum.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Quesi on June 06, 2012, 08:39:50 AM
If Biblegod existed, and Biblegod punished nonbelievers who lived good lives, and also if Deuteronomy 23-2 http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-2.htm is to be taken literally, then that means I would never have the opportunity to spend eternity with my beloved parents, or my wonderful, sweet, innocent little girl.

I cannot imagine a pain more excruciating than knowing that my sweet daughter was in pain, and that I could not protect her.  Or at least be with her while she was in pain.  If I had to choose between being separated from her for all of eternity, while I languished in paradise and she burned in a lake of eternal fire, or being there with her in that lake of fire, I would choose to be with her. 

But what kind of a miserable god would make me choose?  Not one worthy of my worship. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Dante on June 06, 2012, 08:43:36 AM
Because worship doesn't mean lip service, or resented lip service, or "if I don't appear to be worshipping I'll go to hell", it means worship.

Yes, this. Much like the fact that one doesn't "choose" to believe or disbelieve, I doubt one can "choose" to worship that which is reprehensible. And if the biblegod really is omniscient, well…..
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 08:44:56 AM
Isn't Hell the place without Biblegod. I think I read that somewhere. And, since most of us are already there, since most of us are the dreaded "atheist", I think I'm doing good so far. I've been without Biblegod for 20+ years.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: naemhni on June 06, 2012, 08:48:39 AM
If Biblegod existed, and Biblegod punished nonbelievers who lived good lives, and also if Deuteronomy 23-2 http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-2.htm is to be taken literally, then that means I would never have the opportunity to spend eternity with my beloved parents, or my wonderful, sweet, innocent little girl.

I cannot imagine a pain more excruciating than knowing that my sweet daughter was in pain, and that I could not protect her.  Or at least be with her while she was in pain.  If I had to choose between being separated from her for all of eternity, while I languished in paradise and she burned in a lake of eternal fire, or being there with her in that lake of fire, I would choose to be with her. 

But what kind of a miserable god would make me choose?  Not one worthy of my worship.

Oh, don't worry about that.  If you're saved, but any people you care about get condemned, Yahweh will simply alter your personality so that you won't feel any compassion for them anymore and thus won't be upset about it.  Won't that be nice?
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Divorce-Lewis-Signature-Classic/dp/0007461232/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338990802&sr=8-1
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kin hell on June 06, 2012, 08:49:18 AM
It seems a very limited false sort of worship that exists only because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

Yep, sure does. But that's the choice you have. We can only speculate, because we can't know what eternal torture is like, but my speculation is that it's not something that you can make a claim of being able to endure with such brazen certainty as Nam does.

I cannot answer for Nam, but I suspect that I could not "worship"  (always been anti authoritarian, and incapable of delegating authority over me to others) this god is fucking repugnant, and at best I would in fear be pretending to worship something I truly loathe ....and surely my deceit would be transparent so I'd burn anyway.

So I must suggest that Nam's position may be no different than saying he'd have no choice.

You didn't answer the questions I asked. My point was to truly worship doesn't mean falsely pretend to worship for fear of hellfire.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 08:58:25 AM
You didn't answer the questions I asked. My point was to truly worship doesn't mean falsely pretend to worship for fear of hellfire.

My point is you would truly worship it before choosing Hell though. I believe your meager human mind would crumble, as would mine. All this talk of standing up to a real god and choosing eternal Hell is just cheap talk, IMHO. It's easy to type out these brazen claims sitting behind a computer screen, but my speculation if all this was true is that you, as I, being mere frail humans, would really worship it. I do not see any way you would be able to not do it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 09:00:27 AM
I don't know Hal, do you believe you're winning this argument, yet?

People who give in so easily to what they've been against most or all their lives are weak by nature.  See, Christianity was one of my abusers when I was a child. It did more mental damage than physical but it had a hand in the physical aspect, as well. Now, some could say that I chose atheism 'cause I got a bad rap as a child from those who weren't really loving wholesome Christians but that wouldn't be true 'cause those people were there, too.  No, reading the Bible, cover to cover, and understanding what I was reading taught me: Christianity is nothing but a hateful religion in the disguise of good will.

See, it'd be more of a hell; i'd be tortured more in my mind and heart if I accepted what causes me the most pain. Taking the opposite route would be a picnic compared to being the weak person, such as yourself.

That's how I know i'd last more than 15 seconds.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: naemhni on June 06, 2012, 09:04:08 AM
You didn't answer the questions I asked. My point was to truly worship doesn't mean falsely pretend to worship for fear of hellfire.

My point is you would truly worship it before choosing Hell though. I believe your meager human mind would crumble, as would mine. All this talk of standing up to a real god and choosing eternal Hell is just cheap talk, IMHO. It's easy to type out these brazen claims sitting behind a computer screen, but my speculation if all this was true is that you, as I, being mere frail humans, would really worship it. I do not see any way you would be able to not do it.

I think you're probably right, except for one thing -- unlike with a human tyrant, where mere behavior is likely (or at least possibly) sufficient, Yahweh demands not just worship, but love, and also has the ability to look inside your head to tell whether you're sincere.  This really puts you up against the wall.

In my own case, I'd be tempted to go thru the motions, sure, but on the other hand, since I would also know perfectly well that going thru the motions wouldn't be sufficient, I'm not sure I'd actually follow thru.  I've been known in the past to abandon things when I see no constructive purpose or result arising from the pursuit.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:04:39 AM
People who give in so easily to what they've been against most or all their lives are weak by nature.

Tell me Nam - how many times have you confronted an actual god proven to exist, refused to worship it, and chosen an actual Hell for eternity?

I thought so.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:12:14 AM
I think you're probably right, except for one thing -- unlike with a human tyrant, where mere behavior is likely (or at least possibly) sufficient, Yahweh demands not just worship, but love, and also has the ability to look inside your head to tell whether you're sincere.  This really puts you up against the wall.

True, but Nam's stating he wouldn't even try. He says he'd choose - actually choose - eternal torture first. My speculation is that that is a ridiculous claim to make. Why? Because it is ludicrous to claim you could stand up to the agony. You wouldn't actually choose it, is my speculation. When it comes to the actual reality of this whole scenario (that's what we're considering here) he wouldn't be such a badass as he's making himself out to be. Just typing bold claims of rejecting an actual real god is pretty easy on the internets.

Here watch -

"I would choose eternal torture over worshiping Bible god it it was shown to actually exist!"

See how easy that was? Nothin' to it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 09:18:19 AM
People who give in so easily to what they've been against most or all their lives are weak by nature.

Tell me Nam - how many times have you confronted an actual god proven to exist, refused to worship it, and chosen an actual Hell for eternity?

I thought so.

That's not the point. You're speaking for everyone who has a differing opinion to your own as if we're[1] not competent enough to know our own minds.

I've been "defiant" and one who doesn't take shit from anyone most of my life. Why would I turn around and be the opposite of that all because of some deity that acts like a little baby is shown to actually exist? That would require "fear", and I'm only afraid of one thing, and it ain't no realization of a deity or what it could do to me if I don't bow down to it. I've been in physical fights where I knew I was going to lose but I fought anyway...

What makes you think i'd back down over something like this? Have I ever, to your knowledge, backed down?

If you say yes, you're a liar.

You're speaking for me, and everyone else who state that we'd oppose such a being 'cause that's what you'd do. Not all of us give in so easily.

-Nam
 1. or most likely: just me
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 09:20:29 AM
Nam makes a good point. You don't know his mind, my mind or the minds of anyone who claim they would choose eternal torture over worship.
In short, don't project. It doesn't suit you.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:22:00 AM
That's not the point. You're speaking for everyone who has a differing opinion to your own as if we're[1] not competent enough to know our own minds.
 1. or most likely: just me

You made the claim. Look at the OP. What evidence do you have that you can give the readers that you can stand up to eternal torture and could rationally make that choice? So far all I heard about is a staple gun or some such that you endured? How close is that to the pain of eternal torture? Hmmm ...

You made the claim Nam, I'm waiting for your evidence that can support it. When was the last time you confronted an actual real god and chose eternal torture?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kin hell on June 06, 2012, 09:24:05 AM
abject fear is not worship

worship from fear is not worship

worship because I am too transfixed by fear to do anything else is not worship.



I am not arguing Nam's corner at all, but one thought occurred, what about all the true believers that have grievously sinned believing they'd burn.
Are they not evidence of people who have done what Nam says he'd do?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:24:14 AM
Nam makes a good point. You don't know his mind, my mind or the minds of anyone who claim they would choose eternal torture over worship.
In short, don't project. It doesn't suit you.

This whole scenario is based on speculation, so your point is invalid. We're all speculating what humans can endure or what they will do in this thread.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 09:26:45 AM
This whole scenario is based on speculation, so your point is invalid. We're all speculating what humans can endure or what they will do in this thread.

We're speculating based on what we know about ourselves. You're speculating based on your projections. Who has a better case here?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:27:09 AM
Hot thread eh?

abject fear is not worship

worship from fear is not worship

worship because I am too transfixed by fear to do anything else is not worship.

Why not? Why can't those be worship?

Quote
I am not arguing Nam's corner at all, but one thought occurred, what about all the true believers that have grievously sinned believing they'd burn.
Are they not evidence of people who have done what Nam says he'd do?

I don't know. That's not the point of the thread though.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 09:29:54 AM
My personal baggage, struggles, and the like is none of your business, or anyone else's for that matter. Those minor things I mention, let's just say pale in comparison to things I, and others have been through.  You don't know my life, or anyone else's on here or anywhere else unless they let you know but even in saying all that: they're just words.

And, I have no problem with you, or anyone else stating a differing opinion to my own or others but that's not what you did. You projected your thoughts and ideals, and made them supercede all others 'cause you find the idea ridiculous.

You made it seem as if all other viewpoints and/or opinions were purely nonsense 'cause you feel differently, and it isn't what you'd do.

That's when you lost this argument.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:30:26 AM
We're speculating based on what we know about ourselves. You're speculating based on your projections. Who has a better case here?

How can you speculate on what you would do about choosing eternal torture if you have no experience with it? That's the point. Nam thinks he can speculate on what he would do in the scenario and I don't buy it. Speculating about choosing chocolate ice cream over strawberry next time you buy an ice cream cone is one thing because you've had experience with it. This is not the same thing. Do you understand now?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
How can you speculate on what you would do about choosing eternal torture if you have no experience with it?
<snip>

The same way I can speculate on what I would do if I became paralyzed or if I tried to drive a car for the first time. Because I know myself better than any living being in existence.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:34:30 AM
You projected your thoughts and ideals, and made them supercede all others 'cause you find the idea ridiculous.

Yes I find your claim ridiculous. I ask again for the third time - what experience do you have with rejecting actual real gods and choosing eternal torture?

Quote
You made it seem as if all other viewpoints and/or opinions were purely nonsense 'cause you feel differently, and it isn't what you'd do.

If they are based on speculation with experiences humans have actually had, then they aren't nonsense. Who here has has experience with rejecting actual real gods Nam? I'm still waiting for an answer.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:36:47 AM
The same way I can speculate on what I would do if I became paralyzed or if I tried to drive a car for the first time.

Have human beings ever been paralyzed before, or driven cars for the first time before? Have you ever heard about how other people react to those situations before?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 09:38:50 AM
Have human beings ever been paralyzed before, or driven cars for the first time before? Have you ever heard about how other people react to those situations before?

Yes. Their reactions are numerous, each depending on their personality at the time. I do not know their personality at the time, though, so your point[1] is moot.
 1. At least the one I think you were trying to make.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Dante on June 06, 2012, 09:39:51 AM
If they are based on speculation with experiences humans have actually had, then they aren't nonsense. Who here has has experience with rejecting actual real gods Nam? I'm still waiting for an answer.

Is it your assertion that every single person, ever, would choose worship?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 06, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Any worshipping I did of a real bible god would be recognized by his omnipotenceness as fake, so I don't think I would have much choice in the matter.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 09:40:30 AM
no, I have no experience in rejecting "real deities" seeing how I'm an atheist. But I like how you twisted the subject to be more in-line with your objections to the whole thing, to make me look like an idiot and you the smart(cough) one. As if I'm just an idiot going about his day...I mean this something you added along the way: not even mentioned in your OP.

You'ree still projecting, by the by.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:41:29 AM
Yes. Their reactions are numerous, each depending on their personality at the time.

Quite true. But you made note of all the differing reactions. You are aware of many types of reactions to all kinds of experiences humans endure. Follow this through and you'll figure out the point.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Hatter23 on June 06, 2012, 09:42:01 AM
True, but Nam's stating he wouldn't even try. He says he'd choose - actually choose - eternal torture first. My speculation is that that is a ridiculous claim to make. Why? Because it is ludicrous to claim you could stand up to the agony. You wouldn't actually choose it, is my speculation. When it comes to the actual reality of this whole scenario (that's what we're considering here) he wouldn't be such a badass as he's making himself out to be. Just typing bold claims of rejecting an actual real god is pretty easy on the internets.

Here watch -

"I would choose eternal torture over worshiping Bible god it it was shown to actually exist!"

See how easy that was? Nothin' to it.

Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

But it still comes to sucking Superman's dick. If tortured long enough, anyone would suck Superman's dick. Which still dosen't mean you are going to automatically going to like it, save for Stockholm syndrome. Or also is a moot point because Superman is a fictional character.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 09:42:08 AM
If they are based on speculation with experiences humans have actually had, then they aren't nonsense. Who here has has experience with rejecting actual real gods Nam? I'm still waiting for an answer.

Is it your assertion that every single person, ever, would choose worship?

Going by his view: of course it is. It's ridiculous to think any other way.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:44:01 AM
no, I have no experience in rejecting "real deities" seeing how I'm an atheist.

Well, there you go. That's the point. That was tough but I finally got it out of you.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kin hell on June 06, 2012, 09:45:39 AM
Hot thread eh?
yeah bloke   well triggered  ;D ;D
abject fear is not worship

worship from fear is not worship

worship because I am too transfixed by fear to do anything else is not worship.

Why not? Why can't those be worship?

I believe worship must be volunteered, otherwise it is coerced .......and there goes any freewill.
Adoration and reverence aren't expressed by abject terror.
Acting from fear isn't a form of worship, it is just a fear response, unless you want to change the meaning of worship.

Quote
I am not arguing Nam's corner at all, but one thought occurred, what about all the true believers that have grievously sinned believing they'd burn.
Are they not evidence of people who have done what Nam says he'd do?

I don't know. That's not the point of the thread though.

It is in that if we can see evidence of true believers acting in such a way as to condemn themselves to an eternity of hellfire, then Nam is not claiming anything unheard of.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

Thank you for recognizing this Hatter. Bold claims of standing up to powerful deities are easy to make on the internets, but there is simply no basis for any person to claim what they would or wouldn't do in such a situation. It's arrogance of the highest order.

If the Biblegod was to be proven true (that's the assumption we're basing this whole scenario on) I would speculate we'd all at least attempt to worship it in the face of eternal torture.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kin hell on June 06, 2012, 09:52:51 AM
Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

Thank you for recognizing this Hatter. Bold claims of standing up to powerful deities are easy to make on the internets, but there is simply no basis for any person to claim what they would or wouldn't do in such a situation. It's arrogance of the highest order.

If the Biblegod was to be proven true (that's the assumption we're basing this whole scenario on) I would speculate we'd all at least attempt to worship it in the face of eternal torture.

...and this goes straight back to my first reply where I asked you do you think you can deny your morality and actually worship the god, or are you talking about lip service abject fear quake in boots lie and hope you dont get found out?

......because I just cannot see that as worship for the reasons I gave last post.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 09:52:57 AM
True, but Nam's stating he wouldn't even try. He says he'd choose - actually choose - eternal torture first. My speculation is that that is a ridiculous claim to make. Why? Because it is ludicrous to claim you could stand up to the agony. You wouldn't actually choose it, is my speculation. When it comes to the actual reality of this whole scenario (that's what we're considering here) he wouldn't be such a badass as he's making himself out to be. Just typing bold claims of rejecting an actual real god is pretty easy on the internets.

Here watch -

"I would choose eternal torture over worshiping Bible god it it was shown to actually exist!"

See how easy that was? Nothin' to it.

Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

But it still comes to sucking Superman's dick. If tortured long enough, anyone would suck Superman's dick. Which still dosen't mean you are going to automatically going to like it, save for Stockholm syndrome. Or also is a moot point because Superman is a fictional character.



I've had a gun pointed at my face once. You know what my thought was: well, it was going to happen sooner or later. I've also been stabbed, almost got my lung but the dude used his pocket knife. One of those little ones. Still have the scar.

I didn't piss my pants either time. And I know tougher guys than me, and they didn't tremble at a gun being pointed at them or when they actually got shot.

So, you seem to be just like Hal, thinking you know the minds of everyone.

Yes, people get tortured but they'd say anything to get it to stop. Now, one can assume I just proved Hal's point but no: there's a difference in saying what someone wants to hear and fucking them over later 'cause they obviously didn't mean it. See, if they actually wanted it to stop for good, they'd mean it; and since they don't mean it: it'll never stop and they will always be in defiance.

In the end: they do choose torture.

Please...

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:56:27 AM
I believe worship must be volunteered, otherwise it is coerced .......and there goes any freewill.
Adoration and reverence aren't expressed by abject terror.
Acting from fear isn't a form of worship, it is just a fear response, unless you want to change the meaning of worship.

But again back to the point - we're taking about what we'd do in the face of an experience no human has ever had. So along those lines, how do you know you wouldn't really end up worshiping it? You've never faced a real god of any kind. You seem to be so sure you wouldn't, but you have no human experience to base it on.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 09:57:53 AM
Yes, people get tortured but they'd say anything to get it to stop. Now, one can assume I just proved Hal's point ...

Thanks.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 09:59:41 AM
no, I have no experience in rejecting "real deities" seeing how I'm an atheist.

Well, there you go. That's the point. That was tough but I finally got it out of you.

You added it later--it had nothing to do with your initial OP. And, it proves only when you don't get your way with someone: you cheat.

That's good to know for the future.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
...and this goes straight back to my first reply where I asked you do you think you can deny your morality and actually worship the god, or are you talking about lip service abject fear quake in boots lie and hope you dont get found out?

Well, I'd god damn sure try to fake it - I'd do anything to try to get out of Hell. You're god damn right. Anyone who says otherwise, IMHO, is trying to comprehend infinity.

Quote
......because I just cannot see that as worship for the reasons I gave last post.

I do not know what Biblegod would accept as "worship". Maybe trying is all that counts, but I have no idea.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kin hell on June 06, 2012, 10:02:09 AM
I believe worship must be volunteered, otherwise it is coerced .......and there goes any freewill.
Adoration and reverence aren't expressed by abject terror.
Acting from fear isn't a form of worship, it is just a fear response, unless you want to change the meaning of worship.

But again back to the point - we're taking about what we'd do in the face of an experience no human has ever had. So along those lines, how do you know you wouldn't really end up worshiping it? You've never faced a real god of any kind. You seem to be so sure you wouldn't, but you have no human experience to base it on.

Hold on mate

are you saying that no one has ever gone against biblegod?

So Eve never ate the apple?



Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 10:05:37 AM
Yes, people get tortured but they'd say anything to get it to stop. Now, one can assume I just proved Hal's point ...

Thanks.

Now, you're just like ever other religious person who only quotes the things that make them look good.

What about the rest?

That's another deserving smite but i have to wait an hour.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2012, 10:08:49 AM
There's no point to be in this topic: Hal's right, everyone else is wrong.

I guess I am the only one who sees that.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: kin hell on June 06, 2012, 10:09:53 AM
...and this goes straight back to my first reply where I asked you do you think you can deny your morality and actually worship the god, or are you talking about lip service abject fear quake in boots lie and hope you dont get found out?

Well, I'd god damn sure try to fake it - I'd do anything to try to get out of Hell. You're god damn right. Anyone who says otherwise, IMHO, is trying to comprehend infinity.

Quote
......because I just cannot see that as worship for the reasons I gave last post.

I do not know what Biblegod would accept as "worship". Maybe trying is all that counts, but I have no idea.

OK that does change things somewhat.

..........personally,  .....threatened by eternal torment, I'd be lying my head off and attempting "worshipping"

It wouldn't really be worship, because (unless I was not me any more), my internal dialogue would be watching me sell myself out to this celestial bully.

But I'd be seen to be actively butt kissing with the best of them.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 06, 2012, 10:30:48 AM
I think it's actually difficult to know what you'd do unless you've been put in a similar situation. I know what I would like to do. But torture is very good at cracking a man, even those who are toughest to crack and we're only talking about the finite methods of human torture. Add that it's never ending. The pain will never stop. Ever. No moment of peace. For all your principles for all that you believe in and stand up for, could well be broken through torture just so that you bend to God's will. One might become vigilant and strong through human torture and have the will power to resist it to the very end (and it's a lot of willpower and no doubt some level of training). With hell, there is no end, no death, no heroes to save you, no mercy. It's a horrible and sick think once you start trying to think about it, trying to understand what it's like, but to be honest, that's very difficult.

Even though we cannot know a person's mind, I think it's a pretty bold claim to say you'd rather the torture, I think it's easier to make when you're not being faced with the situation.


This is why I often claim that God doesn't offer free will. In essence God only offers 2 choices because all your actions are only a means to your end and there's two possible ends. Eternal bliss or eternal torture. I would VERY much hate to worship such a God, I would have to lie to myself and delude myself into a state of mind where I am able to worship this God and live by this God's laws. I would feel dirty but would have to learn to deal with it and it might not make heaven blissful for me, but I'd have time to try and come to terms with that.. Although I have my principles, I suspect that in the end it will come to self preservation.


However, I have thought of something. Would one be able to meditate themselves into a state of self-hypnosis where you are detached from all pain? Would God try to break that barrier down to ensure your suffering.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Hatter23 on June 06, 2012, 10:42:53 AM

are you saying that no one has ever gone against biblegod?

So Eve never ate the apple?

While I don't think that particular example has bearing on this situation(remember Eve was, not knowing the difference between right and wrong, and not knowing pain, the term niave isn't remotely strong enough.)

However I think to things like this when theists go "if God revealed himself, people just wouldn't do wrong out of fear, there would be no faith" Um haven't you read your own Bible? There are plenty of people in it that have met and talked with God, and still disobey him.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 11:10:03 AM
Quite true. But you made note of all the differing reactions. You are aware of many types of reactions to all kinds of experiences humans endure. Follow this through and you'll figure out the point.

HAL, your assumption that a human being is not capable of determining how he or she would react in any given situation unless they had already been there before and/or had heard about how others reacted is highly flawed. I don't know how astronauts felt when they went into space. Quite frankly, I just don't give a shit. However, I know how I'd react because I know more about myself than everyone else, and that includes you. You are underestimating the knowledge one has of oneself, or perhaps projecting your own lack of knowledge on us. Just because you don't know something about someone doesn't mean they don't know it either.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Truth OT on June 06, 2012, 11:16:30 AM
If BibleGod were shown to exist as the nearly omnimax deity described in the Bible texts, then I have my doubts about whether there will be a need for worship. From the overwhelming majority of Biblical texts, it appears that the concept of worshiping God was more on man than on the God man's worship was directed at. God's deal with man seemed to be mostly centered around man being obedient to Him as opposed to worshiping Him.

It always comes back to the question of why an all powerful self sustaining being would need to be worshipped. The idea of worship to me in many ways comes across as being quite silly. Worship in the Bible looks a lot like hype as all it appears to do is "pump up" the proclaimed greatness of the people of the Bible's God.

That said, if Biblegod was shown to exist, I doubt that there would be a need or compulsion from Him to make people worship Him. I would give Him praise and thanks where it was due and ask Him a ton of "why the hell did you"........ type questions before my mind would allow me to go into worship mode, if that were even possible as I'm not big on idols.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Energized on June 06, 2012, 11:22:38 AM

But again back to the point - we're taking about what we'd do in the face of an experience no human has ever had.

You're right - no one has confronted god and been sent to a lake of fire.

However, I think burn victims can come close to expressing how it would feel...

E.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 11:36:50 AM
HAL, your assumption that a human being is not capable of determining how he or she would react in any given situation unless they had already been there before and/or had heard about how others reacted is highly flawed.

Oh you can find lot's of situations where you could probably determine how you would react - such as eating a flavor of ice cream you hate just because your grandmother made it, or even an extreme example - choosing to have your tooth drilled on without numbing it to show your toughness. Good for you.

Stating you can enduring eternal torture, in front of adults on the internets, is not an impressive move. Uttering such a thing is laughable and shows that you have no comprehension of what were really talking about. Like I said - we're all tough guys on the internets - Nam being the toughest of the tough. You and he would buckle so fast it wouldn't even be funny - but go ahead and tell us again how you know yourself so well you could take eternal torture. It's entertaining.

You're right - no one has confronted god and been sent to a lake of fire.

However, I think burn victims can come close to expressing how it would feel...

Exactly! Now do that for eternity, plus add a whole bunch of other nasty tortures and do all of them at the same time all the time forever.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 11:40:21 AM
I actually stated I couldn't handle it, HAL. I just stated that I would prefer it to the alternative. Thanks for admitting that you were wrong, though.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 11:48:10 AM
I actually stated I couldn't handle it, HAL. I just stated that I would prefer it to the alternative.

Goes back to my point - you cannot possibly understand what you are talking about. Stating you would prefer eternal torture to anything is laughable. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 12:07:52 PM
You're projecting again...
Your preferences are not my preferences. That's why they're called "your preferences" and "my preferences" rather than "our preferences". Get it now?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 12:41:25 PM
Your preferences are not my preferences. That's why they're called "your preferences" and "my preferences" rather than "our preferences".

As I've already explained, you're basically just being an internet tough guy when it comes to this topic, as is Nam. It's very easy to type out tough stances like this on forums. "Oh I've withstood staple guns, bee stings, or weapons being pointed at me - so bring it on Biblegod!" That's so far from the reality of this scenario if it were to become real that your puny mind cannot even begin to comprehend the ramifications.

The claim that you would prefer real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture is laughable. Your claim of this "preference" is not a believable stance, because you couldn't even take a few minutes of torture such as water boarding or any number of other very, very nasty things I can think up. You would buckle immediately. You'd be on your knees begging to do anything to stop it - and we're only talking minutes at a time, not to mention combining several at once. You are no tough guy who is able to withstand even human torture methods. Give me a f*cking break and stop making these grandiose statements of toughness.

I will make one caveat - if you are insane then I would understand your thinking that you would have a preference of real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture. Are you insane?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 12:49:11 PM
As I've already explained, you're basically just being an internet tough guy when it comes to this topic, as is Nam.
<snip>

HAL, you must point out where I said that I'd be able to handle it.
All I said is that I'd prefer it to bowing down to something that is as far away from perfect[1] as possible[2] Who are you to say that I would/do not? The answer is "nobody". You don't know me better than I know myself. Not everyone thinks like you do. Actually, nobody thinks like you do. That's why you're "you" and we're not.

I will make one caveat - if you are insane then I would understand your thinking that you would have a preference of real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture. Are you insane?

I'd rather not say. Let's leave it a mystery.
 1. By my definition.
 2. Hyperbole.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: screwtape on June 06, 2012, 12:50:54 PM
Let's leave it a mystery.

It's not a mystery.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 12:54:20 PM
It's not a mystery.

I know. I just wanted to use that line. I am obviously sane.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 02:26:38 PM
OK let step through this mess slowly so at least the audience can see what's going on.

HAL, you must point out where I said that I'd be able to handle it.

Point 1 - You admit you can't handle it (eternal torture)

Quote
All I said is that I'd prefer it to bowing down to something that is as far away from perfect as possible

Point 2 - But ... you'd prefer eternal torture to {not} eternal torture (bowing down), but you can't handle eternal torture. Woops, we got a problem folks.

If you can't handle eternal torture then you will not prefer it because you have a choice (in this hypothetical scenario) - there is a way to not be eternally tortured (a thing you admit you can't handle). There is a way to not have the thing done to you that you admit you can't handle. You will not prefer a thing you can't handle if there is any alternative less physically painful. If this was a real scenario you would be certifiably insane to choose the thing you can't handle.

Quote
Who are you to say that I would/do not? The answer is "nobody". You don't know me better than I know myself.

No sane human would realistically pick physical eternal torture when there is a way out of it less painful. If that seems arrogant you are mistaken. It's simple human nature (for sane people). You wouldn't and won't pick it, of that I'm 100% confident. I god damn sure wouldn't pick it, I'm not going to be arrogant and try to say something so nutty as I could choose eternal torture meted out by a god over ANY less painful alternative. You wouldn't even do it if simple human torture was applied to you. You can stop being an internet tough guy now.

I will make one caveat - if you are insane then I would understand your thinking that you would have a preference of real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture. Are you insane?

Quote
I'd rather not say. Let's leave it a mystery.

I think the mystery is becoming less mysterious.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 06, 2012, 02:27:41 PM
Getting back to the question in the OP, I'd have to admit I would fall in and give this tyrant his insincere worship and start looking to see if he has a potential weakness and try to fall in with the underground and revolt.

Obviously, if Biblegod were real and were reasonably close to his depiction in that book, there would likely be weaknesses.  He wants worship from humans, and it appears that even though he claims to be omnipotent, when you consider all that happens on planet earth alone, let alone the universe, that seems dubious.   I'd be looking for weaknesses in his systems of control. 

Also, the desire to be worshipped and the obsession with sex acts and sadism all suggest that god is nuts...dangerous and crafty perhaps, but nuts.  If a dictator is insane, it's a weakness and there might be some way to exploit it.

But even given weaknesses in god's powers, it doesn't take much technology and power to be able to torture someone into total agony.  So even though god might not be as powerful as he claims, I would bet that he could have me screaming in agony pretty quick.  After all, his followers have traditionally been highly expert at all manner of tortures. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 02:35:14 PM
Getting back to the question in the OP, I'd have to admit I would fall in and give this tyrant his insincere worship and start looking to see if he has a potential weakness and try to fall in with the underground and revolt.

Thanks for being honest.

Of course you would - it's nothing to be ashamed of. I would too. We all would, and I don't think that's an arrogant statement on my part. Typing words on a keyboard stating you can stand up to the eternal torture of a deity is where the arrogance lies, not with my points. At least I'd give it a try even if it was just going through the motions of worship. Maybe it wouldn't be good enough, but I'm damn sure going to try to get out of going to Hell. Live to fight another day.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 02:35:27 PM
<snip>

You're assuming I can handle bowing down and worshiping imperfection for eternity, as well as everything else that heaven would entail. I can't. It's worse (for me) than physical pain. I'm choosing what I consider right, and that in itself makes torture seem better than worship.

I think the mystery is becoming less mysterious.

Yup. As I mentioned before, I'm sane.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 02:39:26 PM
You're assuming I can handle bowing down and worshiping imperfection for eternity, as well as everything else that heaven would entail. I can't. It's worse (for me) than physical pain.

Nice bold statement, but it's not believable. You aren't that tough, because you are merely a human. You will not be able to do it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 02:45:04 PM
Nice bold statement, but it's not believable.

To whom? Ah, right... you. Sorry, HAL, but you're not psychic. You don't know me.

You aren't that tough, because you are merely a human. You will not be able to do it.

Don't project your flaws onto me, HAL. You aren't that tough. You will (sic) not be able to do it. I know myself, and I can damn well say that I can and would do it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 02:51:01 PM
I know myself, and I can damn well say that I can and would do it.

I know you can say it, but that's just being an internet tough guy behind a screen. You are a mere human and will not be able to do it. No way, no how son. You will buckle at the first sign of pain, and that's just at the first sign. You have no clue at the amount of pain or time periods we're taking about. You are just a human and so will not be able to take torture from a deity.

You will be with me and the others trying as hard as possible to get our asses out of it any way we can.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 06, 2012, 02:57:52 PM
<snip>

HAL, I'm starting to think that you're projecting because you consider your choice to be the wrong one, and just want everyone else to do the wrong thing.

Oh well. I'm done here. I don't need you to believe me. Keep on thinking that you know me better than I know myself if it makes you feel better.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 03:02:14 PM
So you are The One? The One? The One that can take torture from a deity no matter what it is or how long it is? The One that can choose this even if you could get out of it another way?

Can you tell the audience how you are able to achieve this remarkable feat? How have you prepared for this monumental task? Are you bringing a bag full of nails to bite down on? Come tell us how you are able to endure it all - what training you have?

I know how you prepared - you debate others on the internets. You got through a tough year at school once? You got through losing a girlfriend? Maybe some other great trial in your life? Or like Nam you had a staple in your skin once?

Oh - you are going to get through it because you typed it out on a computer screen? Once typed out, it is a done deal.

Sounds like you are really ready! Bring it Biblegod!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 06, 2012, 03:18:04 PM
The one fear I have regarding hell in our actual world, as opposed to the hypothetical world is this:

Human brains are subject to hallucinations, delusions, and dreams.  Certain mental states and wildly distort time perception. 

Potentially, in the last remaining seconds of life, due perhaps to one's deteriorating medical condition, one's brain might have a kind of dream of hell, and within the distorted timeframe of the mind, it could seem like literally forever (and might as well be, since one's consciousness ends when the dream ends...). 

There are reports of some near death patients having hell-dreams as well as heaven dreams.

In my own experience, I recall nightmares, but I take comfort in the fact that in my dreams, I don't ever recall feeling actual physical pain. 

I think this one reason I stay far from religion...I don't want to be downloading more of the Xian BS about hell...I want to try to push out obsolete files in my brain that were made by my parents and the church when I was a kid. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: WeZzZzRURR on June 06, 2012, 04:06:46 PM
This is an interesting thread! =)

I would like to offer a little of my opinion on what hell would be, and then leave it up to you guys to decide of knowing what hell would be like, you would instantly choose over believing in your bible god. 

I believe that first of all, we lack the words to define the torture that would be presented to us in hell.  To add to this, I believe that each individual's experience in hell would differ depending on what they would consider to be true suffering.  Basically,  I believe that the idea of hell is to be the absolute worse suffering for each individual person, which words could not describe, and for anyone to really claim that just because they're tough in our mortal world and can take pain, this toughness and high tolerance of pain does not translate to an eternity of suffering in hell. 

I have always felt that I have had an incredibly high tolerance of pain, such a tolerance that has freaked out people in the past.... But by no means do I believe that I could stand up to the suffering that would be present to me in hell.

I would also like to agree that I would not be able to truly worship the bible god in which you guys speak, now before this topic turns from what it is now to you guys debating me on the ideal that I already do believe in a bible god, I would like to state that I need to research the bible and the contradictions pointed out to me myself before I put my all behind the bible... Just know that my belief of God comes first before my belief in the bible.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 06, 2012, 04:33:03 PM
I propose an experiment! HAL kidnaps One Above All, ties him to a chair and tortures him constantly with no mercy and the only way he can get out of it is to propose to Shirley Phelps, HAL documents the torture. How many years of torture would suffice? I don't think it'd be possible to emulate an eternity.

Or is this too extreme for science?

It's just as well that I didn't persue the dream of being a psychologist further than I did. Think of all those poor test subjects. At least they'd all have cake.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 04:58:24 PM
To add to this, I believe that each individual's experience in hell would differ depending on what they would consider to be true suffering.  Basically,  I believe that the idea of hell is to be the absolute worse suffering for each individual person, which words could not describe, and for anyone to really claim that just because they're tough in our mortal world and can take pain, this toughness and high tolerance of pain does not translate to an eternity of suffering in hell. 

Now I have a new idea. One Above All (OAA) states that he would rather choose eternal Hell rather than worship Biblegod. But let's say that his suffering in Hell is exactly what he refuses to do to prevent him from going to Hell in the first place. He either chooses to worship Biblegod and stay out of Hell getting all the other benefits of afterlife out of Hell, or if he refuses, he has to worship Biblegod forever with no breaks.

Interesting. I wonder what he would do? Ah well guess we'll never know now -

Oh well. I'm done here.

I propose an experiment! HAL kidnaps One Above All, ties him to a chair and tortures him constantly with no mercy and the only way he can get out of it is to propose to Shirley Phelps, HAL documents the torture. How many years of torture would suffice? I don't think it'd be possible to emulate an eternity. those poor test subjects. At least they'd all have cake.

If I could and would really torture someone? Oh my - OAA wouldn't last very long. My goodness, as soon as he saw me coming with a titanium bit in my cordless drill aiming for his teeth in one hand, and a ball peen hammer aiming for his kneecaps in the other, he'd probably start bauling like a baby before I got close enough to do any damage. Now multiply that times a whole shitload more coming from Biblegod. He's not going to choose it.

You see when it comes to excruciating pain everyone will break. Who the Hell is OAA - is he a Navy SEAL, an Army commando, or some person that has even been trained to deal with a torture situation (not that that would help for very long)? He's just some kid loose on the internets that doesn't know what he's talking about, in this scenario at least.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 06, 2012, 05:08:40 PM
Why are all the interesting threads 3 pages deep before I get to find them???

HAL, I just wanted to take a moment to let you know that I officially agree with Nam and have had a similar position to his since my deconversion some many years ago. Now I have a few questions that I've been meaning to ask you guys for awhile about "hell" but I'm gonna read the last two pages to make sure my answers aren't already here first.

Thanks for letting me interrupt the conversation long enough to say I agree with Nam[1]. I have to get the baby down for a nap before I thoroughly reply, so it may take a min and you guys are prob gonna be another 3 pages deep by then!
 1. I will be back with questions and comments soon, but I really had to let you know HAL, I figured you might enjoy knowing since this has prob never happened before.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: WeZzZzRURR on June 06, 2012, 05:13:24 PM
But let's say that his suffering in Hell is exactly what he refuses to do to prevent him from going to Hell in the first place. He either chooses to worship Biblegod and stay out of Hell getting all the other benefits of afterlife out of Hell, or if he refuses, he has to worship Biblegod forever with no breaks.

Haha I knew that was coming next after my post..... =)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 05:13:35 PM
HAL, I just wanted to take a moment to let you know that I officially agree with Nam and have had a similar position to his since my deconversion some many years ago.

Well you've read the thread so I can't add anything to what I've said. I'd just let the audience judge for themselves if a human has any idea what they are saying when they claim they can choose and endure eternal torture over any other option. I don't believe you can, because you have no idea of the misery.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 06, 2012, 05:32:59 PM
Ok, I'm done reading the last two pages. But I have some questions as I don't fully understand the nature of the bible's hell. So is it just that you go "live" or "exist" in a lake of fire for all eternity? Or is there some mind control, and other torture methods present? Are all of your human coping mechanisms and attributes removed when you enter this place? Is there literally no time limit?[1]

You can't literally burn forever, that's silly. So, how exactly does this lake of fire work, does it just "boil" at a level that prevents nerve damage? Do you just eventually turn to ashes? I really, honestly, don't understand the biblical concept of hell. So if someone could explain this stuff to me first I can then attempt to answer the OP.

It's kinda like the matrix, I already have all the information I need to prevent me from ever being able to worship the biblical god. There's literally no going back. I can't fake worship because he would know. So aside from pride, toughness, and masochism what option do I really have?

Edit to add: All that being said, it seems perfectly logical to me to choose torment, at least that way it gives me the perception of choice. Because from my understanding of the bible I have no choice, I'm destined for hell any ways, so why not allow myself this one last pretend +1 on god?
 1. I think I've read several Christians with biblical sources that claim it's not really all eternity.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: WeZzZzRURR on June 06, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Ok, I'm done reading the last two pages. But I have some questions as I don't fully understand the nature of the bible's hell. So is it just that you go "live" or "exist" in a lake of fire for all eternity? Or is there some mind control, and other torture methods present? Are all of your human coping mechanisms and attributes removed when you enter this place? Is there literally no time limit?[1]

You can't literally burn forever, that's silly. So, how exactly does this lake of fire work, does it just "boil" at a level that prevents nerve damage? Do you just eventually turn to ashes? I really, honestly, don't understand the biblical concept of hell. So if someone could explain this stuff to me first I can then attempt to answer the OP.

It's kinda like the matrix, I already have all the information I need to prevent me from ever being able to worship the biblical god. There's literally no going back. I can't fake worship because he would know. So aside from pride, toughness, and masochism what option do I really have?

Edit to add: All that being said, it seems perfectly logical to me to choose torment, at least that way it gives me the perception of choice. Because from my understanding of the bible I have no choice, I'm destined for hell any ways, so why not allow myself this one last pretend +1 on god?
 1. I think I've read several Christians with biblical sources that claim it's not really all eternity.

Like I posted earlier, my interpretation of hell is suffering beyond description, the worse suffering that each individual could go through... Like someone previously stated, you could think of it kind of like magic, whereby you continue to feel the same amount of suffering repeatedly for an eternity, not getting used to the pain, not withering away, just a continuation of indescribable suffering. 

And I would have to say that, if someone had felt this suffering prior to making their decision, they would have no choice but to try and believe in a bible god even if they don't agree with the morals of that said bible god..... But being that you could not have any idea what kind of suffering would ensue you in hell, you would naturally do what is right to you, deny the thought worshiping something that you completely disagree with, but later regret it in your suffering.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 06, 2012, 06:17:23 PM
Quote
You can't literally burn forever, that's silly. So, how exactly does this lake of fire work, does it just "boil" at a level that prevents nerve damage? Do you just eventually turn to ashes?

What you have to bear in mind now is that if God exists and there's an afterlife. It's not our mortal body that burns but our immortal soul and it would seem, based on what many Christians claim, that the immortal soul is capable of feeling pain. The claim is that we will suffer for all eternity, now there are different interpretations of hell and personally I love my interpretation best (where Satan makes Hell awesome because they stuck it to God like he did did) but that's not what people generally talk about when they talk about hell. It's this place where we're put to suffer for all eternity for all of our sins.

We are told that if we don't accept Christ we are to burn in hell for eternity. And this is what we're tackling. You're talking about an eternity of intense pain.
If we did not suffer and if we could cope it would take away the point.

But I suppose we do have to ask exactly what is hell? The above I'd argue is the general consensus. If that is the hell we are destined to go to, I'd like to say I'd be able to stick to my principles.

Quote
There's literally no going back. I can't fake worship because he would know.

This is why I talked about deluding yourself. Eventually you would be back on that path. I would hate it, I would not want it and it goes against all that I stand for. This is why I say I do not know what I'd choose. It's a question of betraying yourself as to no suffer immense pain & suffering or to keep your pride and suffer immensely. As far as I am concerned you cannot win either way, but I would argue the eternal torture is the worst of the two. At least with betraying yourself you're able to delude yourself into some kind of contentment.

However, this thread is actually kind of useful, because a character in my novel kind of goes through this problem. She's in hell, but because she's being tortured into belief in very much the same manner. She tries to lie about her beliefs just to make the pain stop, but they want to be convinced and they will not be happy until she's deluded herself into their way of thinking. She's strong willed and like many of us, would be much happier being who they are and not what somebody threatens them to be. I won't go into details as to not derail, but I thought it's just interesting.

The difference is an all-knowing God will know if you've deluded yourself, but if he wants to scare monger us into worship and threaten us with violence then I would say he's happy so long as you're bowing down to him and obeying his law and to not be thinking about defying him. But I do agree that it is impossible to truly go back to worship, at least with scare mongering/force pressuring you, because it goes against our own morality and the only way to forcible change your morality is to delude yourself.


[edit]I am actually feeling very tired at the minute. As I've not reviewed my post, I feel the need to say: apologies for any errors, lacks of observation or even incoherent thought. I shall review in the morning. :)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 06, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
My response was written before your reply Sep and was meant to be placed after WeZ post...

I don't believe I can really answer the question until I have a firm understand or description of the biblical hell and a firm definition of the biblical meaning of worship.

Thanks for your attempt at it WeZzZzRURR... But what you provided is your interpretation of the bible. I don't really want an interpretation because I've read many of those, none of them make sense to me. You see there are too many contradictions for me to wrap by head around the concepts.

I can only assume, based on what knowledge that I have today, right now, in this moment, that I would choose torture. I may be wrong, but until the terms of hell and worship make sense to me all I can do is answer it to the best of my ability.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: eye over you on June 06, 2012, 06:31:41 PM
    I think I would give in and worship. Principals go out the window when "eternity" comes into play. I can't stand a frickin' toothache for 5 minutes, much less what biblegod could come up with. More power to those stronger than me tho.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: WeZzZzRURR on June 06, 2012, 06:40:17 PM
Thanks for your attempt at it WeZzZzRURR... But what you provided is your interpretation of the bible. I don't really want an interpretation because I've read many of those, none of them make sense to me. You see there are too many contradictions for me to wrap by head around the concepts.

I think, and I may be wrong on this, so correct me if I am wrong, that somewhere in the bible it is stated that the tortures of hell are unfathomable.... Meaning you would never know for sure what hell really is until you were there, meaning you would probably choose eternal torture...
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Azdgari on June 06, 2012, 06:49:41 PM
"Unfathomable" could mean that it's really nice there.  For all we know it could be a realm of bliss.  That would be an unfathomable torture, in that it is an unfathomable method of torturing someone.

To claim that it is unpleasant is to fathom it in some way.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 06, 2012, 06:54:57 PM
Before my inevitable descent into sleep I've pulled a few quotes out to get started, as we're talking about biblical hell. I've not bothered with context or checking them as the bed is looking pretty attractive (yes, that makes me a bedophile), but I'm just throwing them out there to add to the discussion:

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be
subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is
answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in
danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It
is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to
be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.
It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body
to go into hell.
Matthew 13:38-42 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the
kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life."
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you
to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire
never goes out.
Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the
killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you,
fear him.
Luke 16:23-24 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far
away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in
agony in this fire.'

Courtesy of a few loving Biblical sites.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Quesi on June 06, 2012, 06:56:45 PM


Like I posted earlier, my interpretation of hell is suffering beyond description, the worse suffering that each individual could go through... Like someone previously stated, you could think of it kind of like magic, whereby you continue to feel the same amount of suffering repeatedly for an eternity, not getting used to the pain, not withering away, just a continuation of indescribable suffering. 

And I would have to say that, if someone had felt this suffering prior to making their decision, they would have no choice but to try and believe in a bible god even if they don't agree with the morals of that said bible god..... But being that you could not have any idea what kind of suffering would ensue you in hell, you would naturally do what is right to you, deny the thought worshiping something that you completely disagree with, but later regret it in your suffering.

What are your sources?  Where did you get this information?  Can it be verified?  Or does this story exist only in the imaginations of living, breathing people who have never experienced death?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 07:09:54 PM
Well, this is of course a hypothetical so we go on the initial conditions. Nam said this -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

^^^ That's the hypothetical condition. That you will burn in Hell if you knew Biblegod was real (how you know this is irrelevant to this scenario) and chose to not worship it


All that being said, it seems perfectly logical to me to choose torment, at least that way it gives me the perception of choice. Because from my understanding of the bible I have no choice, I'm destined for hell any ways, so why not allow myself this one last pretend +1 on god?

I simply do not think you can possibly say you would choose torment, because you haven't any idea of the real pain you are facing. That's been my point all along. It's easy to type out brazen statements of strength in the face of this Biblegod in the comfort of your home, but if it were reality, I do not believe you would really choose torment for eternity. The reason is that I could torture you very efficiently and easily with items in my garage and you would not be able to stand it for any amount of time. Consider what you would be able to stand from an Omnimax deity. You couldn't take it. Anyone stating otherwise is, IMHO, not being rational about it.

    I think I would give in and worship. Principals go out the window when "eternity" comes into play. I can't stand a frickin' toothache for 5 minutes, much less what biblegod could come up with. More power to those stronger than me tho.

Exactly - that's being honest. No mere human would choose real eternal torture except to say so on internet forums.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: WeZzZzRURR on June 06, 2012, 07:13:51 PM
What are your sources?  Where did you get this information?  Can it be verified?  Or does this story exist only in the imaginations of living, breathing people who have never experienced death?

This is why I kind of stated it as my belief of what hell is.  I'm not entirely sure what kind of picture the bible paints for hell, but that is what I interpret hell to be from what I've heard from the little things in the bible I have encountered on hell.  Its a generalized notion on my part that hell should be the ultimate suffering, now can you think of anything that would be more of an ultimate suffering than experiencing the suffering which when applied to you for an eternity over and over without getting "used" to it is the worse suffering you could possibly experience?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 06, 2012, 07:15:25 PM
Guys remember this is a hypothetical - we aren't here to debate what the Bible says about it now. We're debating what Nam claims he would do given the alternatives he initially stated n the hypothetical.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 06, 2012, 07:18:41 PM
I still don't think any definition of hell or worship has been presented that makes me change my mind.

If the bible says I'm going to hell, which I'm pretty sure we can all agree to that it does. Why not lie to myself, via giving myself the illusion that I have a choice? I can pretend that flipping god off and telling him what an asshole he is will do me any good on my way to this lake of fire. But it doesn't change the fact that according to the bible I'm destined to spend all eternity in the lake of fire. So yes, I would pick torment and torture long enough to pretend I had a choice any ways. It would be my last moment of power[1] and I would enjoy it for as briefly as it lasted. I don't see how pretending to agree to worship god long enough to be outed and sent to hell any ways is a better option??? Sorry HAL, but I respectfully disagree with you.
 1. However imaginary it may be.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 06, 2012, 07:23:44 PM
Guys remember this is a hypothetical - we aren't here to debate what the Bible says about it now. We're debating what Nam claims he would do given the alternatives he initially stated n the hypothetical.

I don't get it... what exactly are we debating that doesn't directly reference what Nam claimed? He's offline now and no one can speak for him but I still don't see where he claimed anything I don't agree with.

You're welcome to try to change my mind, I'm open to debate. But so far I really don't see where Nam or OAA[1] was wrong to have or express the opinions they expressed and generally speaking I agree with both of them.
 1. whatever his name is, I can't see him on this page so IDK I could have those initials wrong.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 06, 2012, 07:25:57 PM
I love my interpretation best (where Satan makes Hell awesome because they stuck it to God like he did did)

Are you referencing the Deistic version of hell? Cause I'd be more down with that.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Death over Life on June 06, 2012, 11:30:09 PM
As I've mentioned many times, I'll just ask God to pass me the Barbeque Sauce.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Brakeman on June 07, 2012, 12:48:31 AM
If biblegod existed, then I would both worship him without choice as a mere puppet, and despise and hate him while he burns me. I would also just die. Biblegod LOVES contradictions!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 07, 2012, 03:34:18 AM
I love my interpretation best (where Satan makes Hell awesome because they stuck it to God like he did did)

Are you referencing the Deistic version of hell? Cause I'd be more down with that.
I don't know the Deistic version of hell, but I pretty much reasoned that Satan is not as bad as God portrays him and would totally dig people like us who have turned away from God and would be throwing us huge parties. All Satan ever wanted was to share God's power, but he was severely punished for it and he tempted man into knowledge. He totally wants us to see God's true nature, not the loving, kind and merciful God he portrays himself to be, but the selfish, cruel petty God. I don't think Satan would play a part in having his brothers and sisters of evil suffer. If hell exists, I'm sure we'll be sipping cocktails. However, the bible disagrees because we go to hell to suffer. Maybe this is a lie portrayed by God in the bible so that we do not give in to temptation?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 07, 2012, 06:19:58 AM
No sane human would realistically pick physical eternal torture when there is a way out of it less painful.

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 07, 2012, 06:32:38 AM
I simply do not think you can possibly say you would choose torment, because you haven't any idea of the real pain you are facing....

And that's the point: at the moment of choice, we DON'T know what the pain is like.  You've said yourself I think that we simply can't imagine what it would be like.....and for that reason, I believe Nam would indeed say "give me the torture" - as I hope I would.  Precisely because we haven't experienced it, at the moment we got the choice, I suspect quite a lot of people would reason that - because of the things they have experienced on earth - they could somehow cope.

I'm pretty sure that you'd be right though - ten seconds, ten minutes, or whatever into the actual experience of hell, we'd all be screaming and begging and crying and promising anything.  But that's AFTER the choice.  I think it was OAA who agreed they wouldn't be able to cope, but would still choose it, and I think - I think - that's what I would choose too.

Nam is right.  He would choose the torture. 
Hal is right.  Nobody would be able to cope.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 07, 2012, 07:05:46 AM
I think it's easier to say that we'd make that choice when we're not expected to make that choice. Whilst we don't know what it's like, but surely we'd realise before we'd make the decision the extent at which suffering can break a man.

Nam may even may think he could withstand the pain enough to be able to make the decision and not regret it. But until that decision has to made you will not know what choice you may take unless you've had to face such a thing before. Just as man does not know what'll he do if a man points a gun to somebody's head. Most would like to think they would do all they could to stop him from pulling the trigger because it's the right thing to do and it may stand by their principles. But until they're put into that situation they don't know what they'll do. One of our most basic instincts is survival & self preservation and usually that's what it comes down to and it's a question of whether or not you have the strength to bypass that.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 07, 2012, 07:27:16 AM
Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

QFT
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 07, 2012, 07:30:31 AM
I don't know the Deistic version of hell, but I pretty much reasoned that Satan is not as bad as God portrays him and would totally dig people like us who have turned away from God and would be throwing us huge parties. All Satan ever wanted was to share God's power, but he was severely punished for it and he tempted man into knowledge. He totally wants us to see God's true nature, not the loving, kind and merciful God he portrays himself to be, but the selfish, cruel petty God. I don't think Satan would play a part in having his brothers and sisters of evil suffer. If hell exists, I'm sure we'll be sipping cocktails. However, the bible disagrees because we go to hell to suffer. Maybe this is a lie portrayed by God in the bible so that we do not give in to temptation?

That is basically my limited understanding of Deism in a nutshell. It might be a little off on some of the details but basically that's how I understand it. I only read about it briefly a few years ago so I reserve the right to be wrong.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 07, 2012, 07:33:32 AM
And yet there are multiple examples throughout history of people who - when the crunch came - made the decision that personal suffering was something they would rather experience than to bend the knee to something they thought was unconscionable.

And clearly people have made the decision that they will go for the torture route (though as I said they may have regretted it later) because torture still happens.  If everyone would cave in before the torture actually begins, then nobody would ever be tortured, surely?  All the information required, all the obeisance demanded, would happen right from the first moment.  After all, if we all realise that "suffering can break a man", then the rational option is to always - always - throw up your hands before it even starts.

That's not to say that 99.9999999%+ of the brave people who opted for torture didn't eventually break, or regret it, or at some stage beg for mercy.  But they took that decision.  And that's why I am confident that some of us here would be able to say "torture, not obedience" at the moment of truth, even if moments later they came to regret it.

I hope I'd be one.  I think I would.  But - like Nam and OAA says - I have to be the person best equipped to predict that call.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Hatter23 on June 07, 2012, 07:34:17 AM
No sane human would realistically pick physical eternal torture when there is a way out of it less painful.

Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on June 07, 2012, 08:50:12 AM

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Exactly...I got to this thread late as well, and keep finding that all the points I want to bring up have already been made for me. But this is really just Pascal's Wager again. For all of us who say they would buckle and choose worship over torture when it came right down to it, the argument could be made that in that case we should be faking the worship all along since we have already made a choice we know we will regret just by our atheism. However, not knowing which god, or which version of said god will keep us from eternal torture is the rub. That and the fact that an omniscient god would be well aware of deception.

I wonder, Wezzr, how you feel about god's way of dealing with disbelief (or non-worship, or both) since you seem to be firmly in the camp of hell as eternal, unimaginable suffering. Do you see it as a just punishment for someone who lives a life at least as moral (and quite possibly moreso) as that of a lifelong, devoted Christian but simply does not believe in god? Or perhaps believes in a different god? Or are you among those who feel that a good, upright person is not destined for hell despite their non-belief? I know you have said that you don't necessarily believe everything the Bible has to say, which seems like cherry-picking so you can continue in the worship of a deity formed more of your own feelings (Self Projection as God-- SPAG, which was brought up earlier in either this thread or the original one, but which I don't think you had any comment on).

Do you really find a deity who considers eternal torture a just punishment for a short lifetime of possibly misguided beliefs worthy of worship?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 07, 2012, 09:32:55 AM
Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Maybe so.  But that's not all there is.  If Hal is indeed asserting that - when the crunch comes - he will immediately abandon his own moral code in favour of his own well-being, then I can't take with any seriousness any claims made by Hal that there is anything wrong with any of that god's actions or morals.  Like he says - easy for him to diss god and all his morals on an internet forum.  But if he is so positive that he will recant everything without a thought, then I'm not sure how his moral code is in any way superior to that of the god he will bow down to. 

If someone is on record as saying "I would cast aside everything I believe in to save myself", why should I care what that person's views are on anything, since they admit they will change as soon as the guy with the big stick shows up?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Hatter23 on June 07, 2012, 10:35:34 AM
Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Maybe so.  But that's not all there is.  If Hal is indeed asserting that - when the crunch comes - he will immediately abandon his own moral code in favour of his own well-being, then I can't take with any seriousness any claims made by Hal that there is anything wrong with any of that god's actions or morals. 

Quite the opposite for me. It demostrates to me that Hal isn't kidding himself, that when faced with an impossible to defeat opponent and eternal torture, he would submit. Anyone who states otherwise isn't honest. However, that is one god and one morality out of many, many, many...which invalidates the "why won't you submit now" question that you propose. Because it is the same question as "If you were willing to suck Superman's dick, why aren't you preparing to do so now by sucking the dick of superman fans?"
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 07, 2012, 11:22:12 AM
Just one quick question - Hal, since you will choose to worship Yahweh when the time comes, is there any point to you being an atheist now?  Indeed, is it a sane option?  After all, you could get hit by a bus any second, and then it'd be too late to choose.....so have you not, already, chosen the eternal torture?

This falls into just having a list of all the 10000 plus dieties mankind has worshipped and asking why not obey every single contradictory demand.

Maybe so.  But that's not all there is.  If Hal is indeed asserting that - when the crunch comes - he will immediately abandon his own moral code in favour of his own well-being, then I can't take with any seriousness any claims made by Hal that there is anything wrong with any of that god's actions or morals. 

Quite the opposite for me. It demostrates to me that Hal isn't kidding himself, that when faced with an impossible to defeat opponent and eternal torture, he would submit. Anyone who states otherwise isn't honest. However, that is one god and one morality out of many, many, many...which invalidates the "why won't you submit now" question that you propose. Because it is the same question as "If you were willing to suck Superman's dick, why aren't you preparing to do so now by sucking the dick of superman fans?"

So, no one's ever fought a fight they knew they were going to lose? No one has died from a result of such a thing? I guess you've never been in a war?[1] No one has, really? I mean how those in other countries[2], who willingly enter the "fire" so to speak, when they know they won't survive? People makw these choices every day, and to say atheists (or imply) wouldn't is insult to the atheist community. I mean, they don't have Heaven to look forward to so why would they be selfish enough to risk their lives for nothingness?

This is what it sounds like you're saying to me. If someone believes, going in, they won't survive, what makes that different to one deciding hell over blind worship.

I mean, as it's been stated: aren't we all choosing hell now? Honestly, "we" don't know if Biblegod truly exists or not, we just believe it doesn't based on the information out there.

-Nam[3]
 1. neither have I but that's not the point
 2. or this one
 3. I apologize for quoting all, I'm on the phone.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 07, 2012, 01:16:03 PM
I'm just going to make a few quick points. First of all this isn't a case of dieing and then finding out that Biblegod is real. If that was true of course you wouldn't have a choice, and I'd be going down to Hell and having to suffer eternal torture. This is a case of somehow having Biblegod proven to exist BEFORE you die. I am sorry if that wasn't clear at first. I don't worship Biblegod now because I do not believe it exists. If it were proven to exist - you are god damn right I'd worship it to avoid Hell if that was the only way to get out of eternal torture.

And that's the point: at the moment of choice, we DON'T know what the pain is like.  You've said yourself I think that we simply can't imagine what it would be like.....and for that reason, I believe Nam would indeed say "give me the torture" - as I hope I would.  Precisely because we haven't experienced it, at the moment we got the choice, I suspect quite a lot of people would reason that - because of the things they have experienced on earth - they could somehow cope.

All we are doing is typing words on keyboards right now. I know having lived a while that when it comes down to it, you will break under torture, and that's only human torture. I'm being realistic in all this, I don't pretend to be tougher than I am. I know you would not pick eternal torture because you are human. It's easy to say you would on a keyboard. That doesn't impress me however. Keep reading ...

Quote
I'm pretty sure that you'd be right though - ten seconds, ten minutes, or whatever into the actual experience of hell, we'd all be screaming and begging and crying and promising anything.  But that's AFTER the choice.  I think it was OAA who agreed they wouldn't be able to cope, but would still choose it, and I think - I think - that's what I would choose too.

I don't think you would choose it. Let me torture you in my garage for a couple of hours to impress into you how bad it will be, then imagine that going on forever. You wouldn't choose eternal torture. I KNOW this, because if you are human you won't - unless as I've said you are insane. Come to my garage Anfauglir, and sit down as I come for your teeth with a titanium bit in my drill. You'll be bauling like a baby before I even press the trigger because you know that the pain coming is intolerable, excruciating, too much to take. Are you even a Navy SEAL or commando trained to tolerate torture. Man I like you a lot but - don't tell me you would do otherwise if a god was in charge of your torture - it's simply not believable.

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Nam is right.  He would choose the torture. 
Hal is right.  Nobody would be able to cope.

I don't agree that Nam would choose it in actuality. He's just acting tough behind a keyboard like OAA, that's all. That's easy to do.

And clearly people have made the decision that they will go for the torture route (though as I said they may have regretted it later) because torture still happens.  If everyone would cave in before the torture actually begins, then nobody would ever be tortured, surely?  All the information required, all the obeisance demanded, would happen right from the first moment.  After all, if we all realise that "suffering can break a man", then the rational option is to always - always - throw up your hands before it even starts.

Ah but there's one problem you are overlooking sir - human torture is only finite in both time and intensity. Remember we're assuming for this thread that Biblegod was proven to exist. Humans who undergo torture on earth by other humans can take it for a short while perhaps, but there's always an end - either they break or they die. Both end the torture. Under this scenario if you choose not to worship Biblegod the torture NEVER ends. Do you now understand why no human who is sane will choose it?

Besides, the torture you are given might be the thing you refused to do in the first place when you think you would choose torture - the torture could be you being made to worship Biblegod anyway by any means necessary - body control - making you go through the actions of worship, or even mind control brainwashing you so that you worship the deity anyway while having the realization all the while you are worshiping it. It could also make you torture your loved ones in Hell if they go there. How would you like to administer torture to your children or wife or loved pet in Hell? Would you like to drill holes in your wife's brain with a hammer drill? How about making your child drink sulfuric acid? I'm sorry for the graphic language but I have to get my point across - you have no idea what you are talking about if you choose torture from a deity. Who knows how else it could make you suffer? Don't think you are smarter than this deity you are confronting here. I realize this, as you should.

So again, and I'm not ashamed of this, if Bible god were to be proven real before I die - you are god damn right I'll worship it.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 07, 2012, 02:10:19 PM
I do think this is a interesting topic, I'm not sure we've talked about it before. Have we?

But I forgot I wanted to add this about worship. Here's a definition -
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wor·ship
   [wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.
noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship

I don't think worship is the actual belief that the thing you are worshiping is deserved of the worship. I think worship is just doing what the thing asking for worship requires for worship. For example, if Biblegod told me in order to worship it I had to drip lambs blood on my big toe and build an altar just so and take off every Sunday to burn pleasing aromas for it to sniff - then if I did those things, I'd actually be worshiping it just fine. I might think it's a bloody asshole but that's what I thought about my last boss too, yet I still did what she asked of me and took home a paycheck. That's self-preservation, doing things you dislike for your own good.

So yea, I'd follow through with whatever it required me to do to worship it. So what if I had to do a few of those things I mentioned? Big Deal. How much time does it take? Yea I'll suck it up and do them, and when I died, I'd eat my chocolate covered strawberries 24/7 or whatever else you do in Heaven. It's too bad the rest of you wouldn't be there to join me (under this fictitious scenario that is). You'd be having ice picks jammed into your eardrums and flamethrowers roasting your body parts, but there's nothing I could do about it.

I'm an agnostic atheist and don't believe in Biblegod, but I never said I wouldn't worship it if it was proven beyond a doubt to exist. At least I don't think I ever said that.

Fortunately, I don't believe it exists and neither do the most of the rest of us, so just keep that in mind. We won't have to endure any of this.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 07, 2012, 03:02:34 PM
I remember once about 10 years ago talking with an ex-Navy Intelligence guy.  He said that prior to Viet Nam, the military taught guys they could resist physical and psychological torture, that only cowards gave in.  But after Viet Nam, all these repatriated guys came back and they debriefed them and the concensus view was that EVERYONE has a breaking point...maybe your captors won't find yours, but at some point you WILL break, given enough time and given a creative enough captor. 

I am 48.  When I was young, I thought I was brave.  And sometimes I've been brave.  But I've also been scared out of my wits a number of times, scared enough to do almost anything to get out of the situation.  A lot of guys have found out that sometimes your nerve desserts you when you need it, and you don't always know when that will happen. 

History shows that most people, confronted with a powerful and bloodthirsty dictator, will put on a show of obedience and try to survive.  History also shows that most people will crack under torture, even to the point of signing false confessions. 

I think for MOST of us, if we KNEW Biblegod was real, and that we really did have the choice between worshipping him and an eternity of the worst torture, we'd opt for the former. 

As animals, for most of our history, we've had to live under the thumb of torturing tyrants, and we're adapted to that psychologically. 

It's one thing to take up arms on the battlefield against a tyrant, because then you have the chance of dying relatively quickly on the battlefield.  I might take that option.  But if you knew the tyrant would win the battle, capture you alive, and torture you for eternity no matter what, I seriously doubt you'd do it. 

And this is one of the reasons Xianity survives. 

And one of the benefits of atheism is that you don't have to spend your life pretending to love someone only under threat of pain. 

Unless you are married.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 07, 2012, 03:06:33 PM
You didn't answer the questions I asked. My point was to truly worship doesn't mean falsely pretend to worship for fear of hellfire.

My point is you would truly worship it before choosing Hell though. I believe your meager human mind would crumble, as would mine. All this talk of standing up to a real god and choosing eternal Hell is just cheap talk, IMHO. It's easy to type out these brazen claims sitting behind a computer screen, but my speculation if all this was true is that you, as I, being mere frail humans, would really worship it. I do not see any way you would be able to not do it.

But, doesn't biblegod say you have to love him above all things?   Sorry, somone already addressed this issue.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 07, 2012, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: Nam
So, no one's ever fought a fight they knew they were going to lose? No one has died from a result of such a thing?

Death is one thing, eternal torture is something else. Death is over quick, you may be willing to sacrifice yourself for others or die for your principles. And because we're atheists who don't believe in life after death, it all ends there as far as we can see.

That's nothing compared to eternal. Nothing in our finite existence could compare to eternal torture because eternal torture has one thing that gives it the upper hand. It's eternal and all things we could use to compare in terms of 'pain & suffering' in our finite existence, are small because they're only finite and no matter how horrible and cruel they are they will end - there is mercy, be it in death or in being saved from the pain & torture. Eternal torture, It never stops. Ever. That's the point and that's how religious folks scare people into their religion and scare people into following the bible. It's this kind of pain and suffering that religious folks want to save us from, because they believe that's what's going to happen to us.

I am sure you know what eternal torture means and I am sure if the choice were to come how you react might not necessarily be what you'd like it to be. And you know, principally I wouldn't want to spend time in heaven knowing great people were in hell, it'd make me very comfortable, I'd feel guilty and it would feel right if I was there with them holding it out with them and holding it out strong and being amongst people who are like me. I wouldn't want to give in to a tyrant as foul and cruel as bible-God, let alone delude myself into worship. But I know that like every man I have a threshold, I have a limit by which I can be broken (and it's a very bold statements to say that you can't) and there's a whole eternity for my will to be broken. Eventually all my principles, all that I stand for, all that I once considered important would mean nothing, because regardless of how my principles guided me when I was alive in the end never truly achieved anything - as in the end it only comes down to 2 things. As a man who would at that point be broken, all that would matter is for the pain to end and I may toss all principles aside so that I may beg for forgiveness in hope that God would show his mercy.

Also bear in mind no man is ever deserving of eternal torture either, because at some people they will have been given justice for the crimes, even mass murdering fuck heads like Hitler.

So as far as I can see, with eternal torture God wins, it may take longer for him to win, but he will win nonetheless. I think if given the choice, you take the easy way out, you'd be a fool not to.

It's a horrible thought, but I know what hell means and I know what God is, the bible states it very clearly and it's not pretty. He's not the only god in the history of man to be that horrific. If any of those gods are real and nobody knows if any of them are, having the right belief is merely a lottery game.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Azdgari on June 07, 2012, 04:23:56 PM
I don't think worship is the actual belief that the thing you are worshiping is deserved of the worship. I think worship is just doing what the thing asking for worship requires for worship. ...

It gets muddier when the subject of worship can read your thoughts, too.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 07, 2012, 04:57:00 PM
Whatever bible hell might consist of, bible god compared it's suffering to the pain of fire.  Now.  Picture yourself being cooked on a hot griddle alive.  This cooking does not stop and never gets less...you don't get used to it.  When we talk eternal, we mean that the pain never lessens, it's just as horrible ten million years down the road as the first minute your flesh starts to cook on that griddle.  Every human being, without exception, will do anything possible to stop such torture.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 07, 2012, 05:14:22 PM
But, doesn't biblegod say you have to love him above all things?

I have a Siamese cat that has the same requirement. As far as it's concerned, I am satisfying that requirement by everything it sees me do.

History shows that most people, confronted with a powerful and bloodthirsty dictator, will put on a show of obedience and try to survive.  History also shows that most people will crack under torture, even to the point of signing false confessions. 

I think for MOST of us, if we KNEW Biblegod was real, and that we really did have the choice between worshipping him and an eternity of the worst torture, we'd opt for the former. 

Right on analogy. Earthly confrontations are one thing. The worst that can happen is you die and that's that (as far as the Earthly confrontation is concerned). Eternal torture is quite another. These tough-typers on the internet would change their tune when faced with it. You cannot possibly win, so you might as well face it and make the best of the situation. If you don't, then I guess that's natural selection at work. Oh, what a strange result - LOL.

It gets muddier when the subject of worship can read your thoughts, too.

I know. But what is love after all? Just pure thoughts or actions too? Like my Siamese cat, if I do everything that's required to show love towards it, don't I love it as far as it's concerned? I mean, if I didn't love her, but still did all the same things, what's the effective difference? So too perhaps with Biblegod. It doesn't say how it can tell if you love it, but isn't the act of worship what it requires to show that? If it could sense that you love it, then why would it require worship to show it?  Maybe it can't "read" love so it invented a requirement for worship. I don't know. All I know is if it was somehow proven that Biblegod was real before I died, I'd try to get out of Hell any way possible. Every man for himself (or woman).

What would you do under this scenario Azdgari? I'd like to know.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 07, 2012, 05:35:12 PM
Quote from: Nam
So, no one's ever fought a fight they knew they were going to lose? No one has died from a result of such a thing?

Death is one thing, eternal torture is something else. Death is over quick, you may be willing to sacrifice yourself for others or die for your principles. And because we're atheists who don't believe in life after death, it all ends there as far as we can see.

That's nothing compared to eternal. Nothing in our finite existence could compare to eternal torture because eternal torture has one thing that gives it the upper hand. It's eternal and all things we could use to compare in terms of 'pain & suffering' in our finite existence, are small because they're only finite and no matter how horrible and cruel they are they will end - there is mercy, be it in death or in being saved from the pain & torture. Eternal torture, It never stops. Ever. That's the point and that's how religious folks scare people into their religion and scare people into following the bible. It's this kind of pain and suffering that religious folks want to save us from, because they believe that's what's going to happen to us.

I am sure you know what eternal torture means and I am sure if the choice were to come how you react might not necessarily be what you'd like it to be. And you know, principally I wouldn't want to spend time in heaven knowing great people were in hell, it'd make me very comfortable, I'd feel guilty and it would feel right if I was there with them holding it out with them and holding it out strong and being amongst people who are like me. I wouldn't want to give in to a tyrant as foul and cruel as bible-God, let alone delude myself into worship. But I know that like every man I have a threshold, I have a limit by which I can be broken (and it's a very bold statements to say that you can't) and there's a whole eternity for my will to be broken. Eventually all my principles, all that I stand for, all that I once considered important would mean nothing, because regardless of how my principles guided me when I was alive in the end never truly achieved anything - as in the end it only comes down to 2 things. As a man who would at that point be broken, all that would matter is for the pain to end and I may toss all principles aside so that I may beg for forgiveness in hope that God would show his mercy.

Also bear in mind no man is ever deserving of eternal torture either, because at some people they will have been given justice for the crimes, even mass murdering fuck heads like Hitler.

So as far as I can see, with eternal torture God wins, it may take longer for him to win, but he will win nonetheless. I think if given the choice, you take the easy way out, you'd be a fool not to.

It's a horrible thought, but I know what hell means and I know what God is, the bible states it very clearly and it's not pretty. He's not the only god in the history of man to be that horrific. If any of those gods are real and nobody knows if any of them are, having the right belief is merely a lottery game.

Tell that to the people who've been held in captivity for years. I mean, I read awhile back in this article who was captured by some guerillas in South America somewhere, where they had him in not so humane conditions for more than 12 years and they finally released him under some truce. That guy endured who know what sort of horrible conditions for more than 12 years and he never gave in; he never chose the easy way out[1], and survived. Now, granted that's not "eternity" but I've read about, and seen documentaries where people lived in all sorts of "hell" for many years. Now, I'm not saying I'm these people but based on my life experience, and mentally what I know I can endure, I believe i'd go their route if I were in their shoes.

-Nam
 1. I.e. suicide
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 07, 2012, 05:54:18 PM

Tell that to the people who've been held in captivity for years. I mean, I read awhile back in this article who was captured by some guerillas in South America somewhere, where they had him in not so humane conditions for more than 12 years and they finally released him under some truce. That guy endured who know what sort of horrible conditions for more than 12 years and he never gave in; he never chose the easy way out[1], and survived. Now, granted that's not "eternity" but I've read about, and seen documentaries where people lived in all sorts of "hell" for many years. Now, I'm not saying I'm these people but based on my life experience, and mentally what I know I can endure, I believe i'd go their route if I were in their shoes.
 1. I.e. suicide

That's an anecdote.  Like the anecdotes of people who survived concentration camps and then lived happy lives w/o suffering PTSD.  Probably true.  But:

Military intelligence in the USA today assumes everyone has a breaking point (see my previous post).  Maybe some people are lucky or stronger or more peculiar, and the war is over before they reach the breaking point.  But everyone has one. 

It's never wise to base your expectations on unusual cases, exceptions to the rule, or persons with superhuman tolerances to adversity. 

Biblegod is certainly powerful and clever enough to find the torture that would affect you (his followers are excellent torturers!), and he has all eternity to do it. 

The factor of pain or stress expirienced over time is a huge consideration.  In my former job, I saw normally patient people become literally murderous when exposed to certain stimuli 24/7 for a period of years...
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 07, 2012, 05:59:30 PM
Tell that to the people who've been held in captivity for years. I mean, I read awhile back in this article who was captured by some guerillas in South America somewhere, where they had him in not so humane conditions for more than 12 years and they finally released him under some truce.

Wow. 12 years. Wow. Yea that's close enough to eternity to convince me. LOL!

Quote
Now, I'm not saying I'm these people but based on my life experience, and mentally what I know I can endure, I believe i'd go their route if I were in their shoes.

Oh Nam, please tell us what types of torture you have endured, I for one would really like to know what you have experienced to prepare you for eternal torture. All I can remember so far is something about a staple under the skin?

Nam, you fail to realize that Mr. Biblegod will find the worst thing possible and make you feel it for all time. Like, it might make you post responses to me forever on a forum in Hell telling me how great I am no matter what I post, and you won't be able to resist it. See what I mean?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 07, 2012, 06:02:11 PM
I never said, nor implied the people who've been held in captivity in the article(s) I've read or documentaries i've seen lived happy lives. Maybe they did, I don't know but to me it'd be a facade. But that's just me.

There's only one thing that could torture me, cause me real pain but I've gone through it enough times in my life that my response is: I'm still here.

Not that I hadn't tried not to be in the past but I survived each attempt, unwillingly.

-Nam

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 07, 2012, 07:33:34 PM
Quote from: Nam
That guy endured who know what sort of horrible conditions for more than 12 years and he never gave in; he never chose the easy way out[1], and survived. Now, granted that's not "eternity" but I've read about, and seen documentaries where people lived in all sorts of "hell" for many years. Now, I'm not saying I'm these people but based on my life experience, and mentally what I know I can endure, I believe i'd go their route if I were in their shoes.

That's the point, their torture ends. People may have a high breaking point and may withstand a lot. But what if they suffered torture non stop for 1,000 years? 5,000 years? 20,000 years? 1,000,000 years? 1,000,000,000,000 years? Do you think yourself that strong? Surviving torture for 12 years is a feat and I am sure their willpower was helped by hope - hope that they would be able to get away from it if they just pulled through. In hell, there is no hope and no way out, no end, nothing for you to pull through. I wouldn't want to belittle their achievement, but 12 years is nothing in comparison to what eternal torture offers. What will you be thinking after 30 trillion years of torture? What about after a googolplex years? Will you still think, "at least I have my principles, I am better off than being a sell-out like Sepp & HAL"?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 07, 2012, 07:50:54 PM
Yeah, tell that to the people who come back from such atrocities, and ask them if it has ended for them; especially those who are reminded of it every day.

How do you know that there's no comparison to the two? I mean, after awhile "not caring" comes into effect, no? I mean, in the sense that, for example, those who have been say slaves their entire lives. From their first breath to their last breath? Weren't, or aren't[1] those people in a type of tortuous hell?

I think so. Some of them lived to be old, 60-80 years, yet they endured such torture. To say it wasn't torture is to belittle them, I feel. Some were whipped on a regular basis. So, why is it that they can endure but I couldn't or no one else couldn't.

You, and Hal, have no idea what a single person can endure, and for how long. You're just speculating based solely on your opinion of the concept. And, to a point so are we. But the difference is: we know our minds and body, and you're basically saying we don't. We couldn't fathom such a thing because there's no real test to show evidence of any of it: and there's some truth to that but Hal, especially, seems to think that my, or anyone else's opinion or "truth" of the reality of the situation is beyond comprehension based on his opinion of it all. That's where he fails, and loses the argument.

If my mind stays in tact through the torture of Hell (hypothetically), then I would not relent. I haven't in my own life, why would I in death?

-Nam
 1. since slaves still exist somewhere in the world
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 07, 2012, 07:57:44 PM
we know our minds and body, and you're basically saying we don't.

That's right - you don't when it comes to this. Not when it comes to eternal torture. You are a foolish little internet tough guy if you think otherwise. It's not wise to be so foolish in front of the entire internet.

I asked you and you didn't answer Nam. What types of torture have you endured to date? What types of preparation do you have under your belt to prepare yourself for eternal torture? Navy SEAL? Army commando? Delta force graduate? Green Beret perhaps? So far all I have is staples in the skin to go on.

So enlighten us dear - what training do you have under your belt for eternal torture?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on June 07, 2012, 09:03:49 PM
They always say "God is love". Anybody here ever been in love? What would you do to hold onto that feeling? Ever been rejected by someone you loved or were in love with? I used to imagine that the lonely desperate feeling of hopelessness was what was being described when talking about being "separated" from God.

God is not present in hell therefore love is not present in hell.

In other words, I always imaged hell as an emotional torture more than a physical one. Since we presumably shed our mortal coils when we die...what's left to torture if there is an afterlife?

If God IS love, and all that it encompasses, then all you would have in God's absence is hate...and all that it encompasses.

if given the option, I would choose to be in the presence of love. However, if being in His presence is described accurately in the bible then I am afraid that I would choose to suffer alone rather than be in thralled to that God.

(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5172/72425849.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/72425849.jpg/)
       ALL WILL LOVE ME AND DESPAIR

Kind of a pointless exercise really. It's quite difficult to know how you are really going to react to any given situation until you've actually experienced it. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: pingnak on June 07, 2012, 09:31:26 PM
If Harry Potter were real, would you be his friend?

Isn't this a false dilemma kind of thing? 

If one wild assed guess is proven true, there are thousands more assumptions after it, which have not been demonstrated.

If buybull god showed up and said, "Hey everybody!  I'm real!", and went on to perform some pretty convincing miracles to prove it, would the choice be "Worship OR Burn Forever"?

Would a choice even be necessary?

It could be a trick question. 

Maybe some subset of actual gods actually LIKE freethinkers and skeptics, and thinks the same of sycophants as pretty much anyone else does.

So choosing to kiss up to the deity would just piss him off.

Funny thing, when I play 'SPAG', ass kissing believers seem like disgusting scumbags.

And then all those 'True Believers' out there who've been putting words in the deity's mouth from the day they learned its name, like some sort of schizoid sock puppet?  Well there just might be a real hell, but just for them.  They're all together in one place, but whenever they speak, someone else's words come out.  Why not?  If Dante can make up hells and punishments, so can I.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 07, 2012, 09:38:06 PM
Hal,

With your reply #106 and your definition of worship I can concede that with no other variables present you are right. But if we allow all the other variables to come in to the question/debate... I hold on to my original response.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 07, 2012, 09:39:48 PM
@jaybwell32

That was more of my understanding of the biblical hell as well. I just don't have any references to know if it was just SPAG some christian once told me. Maybe it's a difference of the OT/NT hell? IDK I'm no biblical scholar.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: joebbowers on June 07, 2012, 09:41:26 PM
I haven't read through all 5 pages, so if anyone's pointed this out already I'm sorry.

Love isn't a choice. Think about it. Did any of you choose to fall in love, or the person you fell in love with? Was it a conscious decision? Also, do you even think it's possible to love someone so evil and vile? Someone who smiles in your face while most of your friends and family are writhing in eternal agony and torment by his will?

Sorry, but all of us would burn in hell. You can't choose to love and worship someone against your will, and no rational, caring, intelligent person could find God anything but repulsive.

I like the idea of pretending to worship just to get into heaven, get close to God and try to kill him, but God can read your mind, remember. He knows everything. It's futile.

Thank God he doesn't exist!

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 07, 2012, 09:43:40 PM
They did cover that Joe... I think if you start on the page right before this one you will see it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on June 07, 2012, 09:48:23 PM
I just don't have any references to know if it was just SPAG some christian once told me. Maybe it's a difference of the OT/NT hell? IDK I'm no biblical scholar.

ditto
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 07, 2012, 10:17:46 PM
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 07, 2012, 10:22:28 PM
First off the creation of hell by believers would have to be proven as a concept that God himself has established,and not just wishfull thinking of believers as punishment who fail to see their god as all powerful.

 The arguement is pure fantasy,as hell is a construct invented by believers,it has little or no basis as real in the OT and Jews have no belief in hell. This hell invention is just Christians thumbing their noses at Jews and others...my God can beat up your God.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 07, 2012, 10:29:39 PM
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.
And what  does the being that can create an entire universe have an interest in burning defiant humans? the concept itself is retarded,even the most ardent believer has trouble with this concept.

 What exactly is the god interested in one planet in one galaxy among numerous (millions+)galaxies and many more planets. Again I say the concept of hell is RETARDED....and then there the concept that a god would even hold an interest....like an ant hill would hold your interest.......maybe for a week or two every year......but then.....no
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 07, 2012, 10:38:02 PM
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.
And what  does the being that can create an entire universe have an interest in burning defiant humans? the concept itself is retarded,even the most ardent believer has trouble with this concept.

 What exactly is the god interested in one planet in one galaxy among numerous (millions+)galaxies and many more planets. Again I say the concept of hell is RETARDED....and then there the concept that a god would even hold an interest....like an ant hill would hold your interest.......maybe for a week or two every year......but then.....no

Good questions.  I would say this concept of a fiery, eternal hell was concocted because  the people, concocting the damned thing, knew no human being would defy their religion if they really bought the concept.  They knew that fire caused the most excruciating pain known to man and they used it to scare people into accepting their way.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 07, 2012, 10:42:26 PM
and an all loving God they claim is theirs,would he create a hell?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 07, 2012, 11:15:36 PM
and an all loving God they claim is theirs,would he create a hell?

If hell fire is to be taken literally, hell no, a loving being would not create such a place.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: joebbowers on June 08, 2012, 01:19:37 AM
You're not playing the game right 12 Monkeys. We know there is no hell. This is hypothetical. Notice the word "if" in the title?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 08, 2012, 03:00:28 AM
I asked you and you didn't answer Nam. What types of torture have you endured to date? What types of preparation do you have under your belt to prepare yourself for eternal torture? Navy SEAL? Army commando? Delta force graduate? Green Beret perhaps? .....So enlighten us dear - what training do you have under your belt for eternal torture?

Like I said - none.  That was my point.  I CAN'T conceive what the pain would be like, and so therefore it is quite possible for me to say "bring it on".  Can't be that bad, right?  That's the point you didn't actually answer, just said "ha ha, you'd break" - which WAN'T my point at all.


You then said "hey, let me torture you and show you....", which AGAIN wasn't the point.  You could be right - that once I've EXPERIENCED torture, I'd do anything to stop it happening again.  But I haven't.  So its easy for me to say I could do it, because I have no frame of reference.

Navy Seals, Commandos, SAS, Special Ops......victims of torture, people who have experienced it - yes, I think they WOULD say "worship", precisely because they know what is coming.

I don't.   So I have that lack of knowledge that means I could take the choice.

It could also make you torture your loved ones in Hell if they go there. How would you like to administer torture to your children or wife or loved pet in Hell? Would you like to drill holes in your wife's brain with a hammer drill? How about making your child drink sulfuric acid? I'm sorry for the graphic language but I have to get my point across - you have no idea what you are talking about if you choose torture from a deity. Who knows how else it could make you suffer? Don't think you are smarter than this deity you are confronting here. I realize this, as you should.

Of course, if you change the rules, then that's a different story.  You've moved away from the physical pain you've been banging on about with Spec Ops training.  This is a different question completely, and if THAT were the choice I'd cave straight away.

What I'm most interested here is why you're pushing this so hard, and alienating and annoying so many people with the condescending statements that you know us better than we know ourselves.  Does Nam annoy you so much that you'll do and say anything to anyone so long as you can ultimately show him up?  It seems so, but I have no idea why.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Seppuku on June 08, 2012, 03:28:28 AM
Quote from: Nam
Yeah, tell that to the people who come back from such atrocities, and ask them if it has ended for them; especially those who are reminded of it every day.

But the physical torture does end and I am sure they are happy that they are free from it and I am sure they don't want to go through it ever again.

Quote
I think so. Some of them lived to be old, 60-80 years, yet they endured such torture. To say it wasn't torture is to belittle them, I feel. Some were whipped on a regular basis. So, why is it that they can endure but I couldn't or no one else couldn't.

I'm not saying it isn't. Also, 'regular basis' is not non-stop, that's another part where you cannot draw a comparison.

Also, one difference between any situation (I've already mentioned) in our finite existence and eternal torture is that there is no hope, there is no way out, there's no end, it doesn't stop, nobody can save you from it once it begins, otherwise it ceases to be eternal.


Quote
You, and Hal, have no idea what a single person can endure, and for how long.

Nor do you and that's kind of the point.


Quote
But the difference is: we know our minds and body, and you're basically saying we don't.

And you've yet to show a single example where you've been tested to know what you can endure and how you'd endure it. But even then, to say you can endure constant torture for even as little as a googolplex years and still feel it's better than being a sell out is a pretty bold claim and I don't think you've really had anything to back it up. How can you possibly know until you've come to experience such a thing? And it is impossible for us to do so. Why? Because we only live for an average of 80 years and we don't even know if any kind of hell exists, let alone acquire test data.


Quote
We couldn't fathom such a thing because there's no real test to show evidence of any of it

Again, this is the point. We'd have to make the decision without any of those tests to know how far we could take it, how far we could endure it. Yes, I'd suggest every man has his breaking point, just because there are men who have endured does not mean they have a breaking point, it just means it hasn't been reached. We have to consider what the psychological effects here, we have a basic fight or flight response system and when faced with constant threat that's our operating system. Our brain has coping systems, but that doesn't mean you're psychologically sound. You're looking at anxiety and then you're looking at depression and with those in mind there's doors open to other psychological effects. There's an eternity for them to manifest, to break you down. You may even get to that stage where you beg for forgiveness because it's a way out. In essence, taking the 'flight' response.

If knowing there is a god and we know which one and which version then pascal's wager does apply. I hate it and it does pain me to say it, but I don't think I'd take the 'torture' option just to find out I don't have the constitution I thought I had to withstand eternal torture. It's horrible thought having to kiss up to this deity, you might have seen in my posts my general dislike of bible-God and how horrific I think he is and even if given the opportunity (if he existed) I'd like to see him dead. Kissing up to that is a horrific idea. But I'd know that by giving in I'd have have plenty of time to come to terms with it. I'd already be self deluded by the time I've come to heaven. I'd probably find people I'd enjoy heaven with and find much to help me forget that I sold myself out. If the gift of heaven is eternal bliss, if that is the reward I receive then my initial conflicts of interest would pass. It even feels dirty saying it, but I feel that it is the honest thing for this hypothetical situation.


Quote from: Anfaulgir
I don't.   So I have that lack of knowledge that means I could take the choice.

You have the knowledge that those who have suffered torture would avoid it, yet you'd take the choice to dive straight in? I'm not sure that you would. You know that you're up against an all-powerful, all-knowing being who is infinite and that he wishes to give you eternal torture, because in this hypothetical situation it has been revealed to you. You may not know what its like, but when it comes to that fight-or-flight response, I am sure you know what fighting means for you, even if you lack the experience of what it may even be like or can even comprehend the extent of it. You don't have to have been hit by a bus to know that when one's coming your way that your "fight" response is not a good idea. Subconsciously you'll know this too, which is why your natural response is to 'flight', if you wish to commit suicide you may try to override your subconscious to go for a 'fight' response.

And of course, once we know there's a god and we know which god and which version, suddenly pascal's wager starts to make sense. Are you going to want to take the risk to find out if you can take it? Without knowing your own abilities and without knowing your own thresholds?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 08, 2012, 07:34:27 AM
First off, there are several definitions of what might happen to you in Hell -

Quote
Although it does not specifically say so, the Bible might seem to indicate that there are different levels of punishment in hell. In Revelation 20:11-15, the people are judged “according to what they had done as recorded in the books” (Revelation 20:12). All the people at this judgment, though, are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).

http://www.gotquestions.org/levels-hell.html

Here's what I said in the first page

I think that's a ridiculous claim - that you have enough knowledge of the consequences of eternal Hell to make such an arrogant claim.

We can only speculate, because we can't know what eternal torture is like, but my speculation is that it's not something that you can make a claim of being able to endure with such brazen certainty as Nam does.

I corrected Nam right off the bat about this. So saying you'd choose Hell over worshipping Biblegod doesn't mean you can choose what's going to happen to you in Hell. For this scenario you either choose Hell or worship Biblegod. Saying "I'd choose to burn forever" is just a metaphor for choosing Hell. Again you have no power over what's going to happen there. That's just the metaphor that was in the original quote.

Like I said - none.  That was my point.  I CAN'T conceive what the pain would be like, and so therefore it is quite possible for me to say "bring it on".  Can't be that bad, right?  That's the point you didn't actually answer, just said "ha ha, you'd break" - which WAN'T my point at all.

You then said "hey, let me torture you and show you....", which AGAIN wasn't the point.  You could be right - that once I've EXPERIENCED torture, I'd do anything to stop it happening again.  But I haven't.  So its easy for me to say I could do it, because I have no frame of reference.

Navy Seals, Commandos, SAS, Special Ops......victims of torture, people who have experienced it - yes, I think they WOULD say "worship", precisely because they know what is coming.

I don't.   So I have that lack of knowledge that means I could take the choice.

Give me a break Anfauglir. Please. Lack of knowledge? Have you ever burned a hole into your skull with a soldering iron? Since you have lack of knowledge of that, go ahead and do it and tell us what happens. I mean - what's holding you back Anfauglir? According to your logic you can do the experiment because you haven't experienced that type of pain before.

You and most people here can extrapolate what kind of pain you will experience. That kind of excuse is lame at best. So you are right, it's easy to say on the internets that you would choose it, because it's not reality now. But this just shows me you aren't taking the scenario seriously. It isn't real so you easily type out the words "Oh I can take it HAL - Yay I'm going to Hell and fuck Biblegod!" You've been listening to too much AC/DC.

You know you couldn't take it even if you haven't experienced it - because you KNOW what excruciating pain is and when push comes to shove you WILL NOT choose it in reality. You'll be worshipping with me, you'll do anything to get out of what you can easily imagine will happen.

Quote
Of course, if you change the rules, then that's a different story.  You've moved away from the physical pain you've been banging on about with Spec Ops training.  This is a different question completely, and if THAT were the choice I'd cave straight away.

Wait a minute you are confusing me. You said you could choose unimaginable pain because you have never experienced it before (but I know you will not do this in reality - you are smart enough to contemplate what's coming and will avoid the situation). But have you ever experienced the torture situation against your family? I doubt it, but you immediately say you would cave? That shows you can think ahead like anybody would and choose the less tortuous path. So please don't make us think you are so incapable of choosing the less painful path - it isn't believable.

Quote
What I'm most interested here is why you're pushing this so hard, and alienating and annoying so many people with the condescending statements that you know us better than we know ourselves.  Does Nam annoy you so much that you'll do and say anything to anyone so long as you can ultimately show him up?  It seems so, but I have no idea why.

I do know you better than you know yourselves (apparently) when it comes to this scenario, and it has nothing to do with Nam - he's just the one who posted it to begin with. I want to get this silly idea that people would actually choose eternal torture over worshipping Biblegod out in the open. As I and others have repeatedly said - you have the internet tough guy syndrome when it comes to this scenario. I type words out on the internets and because of that - I will choose eternal torture in reality. No you won't, because in the reality of this scenario you can't hide behind a keyboard and get out of it. In the reality of a real deity you will use the mental capabilities I know you have and try to out of Hell any god damn way you can.

Again -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

No rational person is going to choose that option. An insane person might, but none of you are insane and will not do it. I can say this with 100% certainty (for rational people) because your excuse that you have never experienced the level of pain, so you could pick it, is simply ridiculous and I think you know it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 08, 2012, 07:53:33 AM
I haven't read through all 5 pages, so if anyone's pointed this out already I'm sorry.

Please read it all first.

Quote
You can't choose to love and worship someone against your will, and no rational, caring, intelligent person could find God anything but repulsive.

Part of what you said is incorrect. You can certainly be forced to worship against your will with the threat of going to Hell hanging over your head. As I said, I may think Biblegod is a bloody asshat but I'll worship it to get out of Hell - damn straight I will. I do all kinds of things in life I don't want to do because it suits my situation - that's nothing to be ashamed of.

And about the love, I gave input on that already so please read it and then comment.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Azdgari on June 08, 2012, 08:29:44 AM
What would you do under this scenario Azdgari? I'd like to know.

In the scenario you describe?  Probably break down, if it's an option.  I'm not convinced that it would be, but I'd be trying to avoid the torture.  It's not like getting tortured would actually accomplish anything, even aside from the dilemma you put forth.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: smiller on June 08, 2012, 05:37:47 PM
I thought I was a tough guy until I had a kidney stone.

A KIDNEY STONE.

Hi everyone.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jeremy0 on June 08, 2012, 06:13:04 PM
Well, at least if I chose to burn forever, I'd be in good company.  I'd rather not worship a god that gives out treats to those that like the idea of their people burning for an eternity just so they can have some decent days....
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 08, 2012, 06:17:49 PM
I never get tired of pulling this quote from St. Thomas Aquinas:

“That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.”

I will give you a dollar if you can find a Xian who will own up to this quote. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 08, 2012, 06:26:06 PM
In the scenario you describe?  Probably break down, if it's an option.  I'm not convinced that it would be, but I'd be trying to avoid the torture.  It's not like getting tortured would actually accomplish anything, even aside from the dilemma you put forth.

Thank you for the response.

I thought I was a tough guy until I had a kidney stone.

A KIDNEY STONE.

Hi everyone.

Hi, and yes I've also had a kidney stone and the pain was so intense I wanted to pass out (but I couldn't). If the torture was just kidney stone pain I'd crack and worship Biblegod, and that's nothing compared to what it could do to me.

Well, at least if I chose to burn forever, I'd be in good company.  I'd rather not worship a god that gives out treats to those that like the idea of their people burning for an eternity just so they can have some decent days....

You'd "rather not" worship Biblegod? Oh, OK. I'd rather not clean my cat's litter boxes either, but I do what must be done. You are treating the scenario as a semi-aggravating choice like having to stop by the store and get a gallon of milk when you'd rather go straight to happy hour.

I've stepped up to the plate and confessed that I would worship it to avoid eternal torture and so have others. So what'll it be Jeremy? Step up to the plate and tell us your definitive answer - not what you would rather do ... or would rather not do ... what will you do in the face of REAL eternal torture facing you if Biblegod was somehow proven to exist?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jeremy0 on June 08, 2012, 06:27:05 PM
Revenge is for the weak.  Making up a ficticious eternal revenge that will never happen to feel good about you hating people is even weaker... especially when you think you'll enjoy watching multi-billions suffer brutal and merceless deaths while you eat your nice, warm dinner...

Answer:  I would take the fucking bastards place and ask not to be worshipped...  i.e. do what he says just long enough to overthrow the asshole that is torturing my people.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 08, 2012, 06:38:20 PM
Answer:  I would take the fucking bastards place and ask not to be worshipped...  i.e. do what he says just long enough to overthrow the asshole that is torturing my people.

OK I'll take that as a "yes", with a valient plan to overthrow IT if possible. Bold plan, but it amounts to my stance also - live to fight another day.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jeremy0 on June 08, 2012, 07:26:34 PM
HAL:

Let me put it this way:  No chance in heaven or hell I would worship this evil, wicked, self-righteous, hateful, irrational, and powerless upstart of a phony god.  PERIOD.  I would definitely find a way to bring justice to all those that were tortured.  Fuck that god.  I'll put his head on a log post.

And to the rest of the posters that said they would worship if that were the case - how easily you retracted on your original statements and postures - just with the threat of torture.  I know torture to a degree.  None of you would be able to enjoy a single day seeing something like that going on.  Pathetic.  You'd all be living in heaven in absolute terror of being sent a-down-below..

Have you learned nothing from your studies of religion?

First, if a God exists, he/she would have to prove to me that they can:
1.  Build a just, equal, good culture/system
2.  Give it to everyone
3.  Build a perfect society that is easily maintainable
4.  Does not take part or take a stance in anything remotely negative or harmful to the human or animal or plant mind, body, or emotion.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: smiller on June 08, 2012, 07:39:24 PM

There's only one thing that could torture me, cause me real pain but I've gone through it enough times in my life that my response is: I'm still here.

Not that I hadn't tried not to be in the past but I survived each attempt, unwillingly.

-Nam
Well Nam, I think when it comes to god and hell (hypothetically speaking) I don't think it's a matter of being here or being survived.

For example, I want you to light up a cig. and dab it under your chin for 2 minutes, or maybe 10 seconds (Don't try this at home kids.)  Maybe you can endure this because, only because you know that the pain will end eventually.  But in hell, hell no it ain't gonna end.

What you want to think or believe being aside, IMHO your claim is unbelievable and unachievable to any human being.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: The Wannabe on June 08, 2012, 07:47:06 PM
If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion  :P
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 09, 2012, 03:35:46 AM

Quote
What I'm most interested here is why you're pushing this so hard, and alienating and annoying so many people with the condescending statements that you know us better than we know ourselves. 

I do know you better than you know yourselves (apparently) when it comes to this scenario,ational person is going to choose that option.....An insane person might, but none of you are insane and will not do it. I can say this with 100% certainty (for rational people) because your excuse that you have never experienced the level of pain, so you could pick it, is simply ridiculous and I think you know it.

Just want to clarify.  You are calling me a liar or insane, is that correct?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 09, 2012, 03:38:19 AM
And to the rest of the posters that said they would worship if that were the case - how easily you retracted on your original statements and postures - just with the threat of torture.  I know torture to a degree.  None of you would be able to enjoy a single day seeing something like that going on.  Pathetic.  You'd all be living in heaven in absolute terror of being sent a-down-below..

Quite.  For me, it means any posturing and complaining about how bad the Biblegod is, is - as Hal insists - just tough-guy internet posturing.  Like dissing the schoolyard bully when he's well out of earshot, when they know they will fawn over him when he appears.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 07:03:00 AM
Just want to clarify.  You are calling me a liar or insane, is that correct?

It's not an either/or like you seem to think. You just don't know yourself like you think you do when it comes to this scenario. I realize that aggravates you when I say it but I can't help that.

It's not so unusual for you to not know yourself in one regard or another - many people don't really know themselves when it comes to many situations, especially something serious like this scenario. It takes another person to call them out or show them how they are not taking into account important points. Why do you think psychologists exist? I don't think you need one, but I do think you are being unrealistically arrogant and belligerent in keeping an unrealistic stance.

So that's what I'm doing - pointing out that you don't know yourself like you think you do - neither does Nam - if it came to the reality of this scenario. Oh you know yourself when it comes to choosing the model of car you want to buy, what types of beer you prefer, and whether to believe in a god or not. You already admitted that if the torture of Hell was to have you drill holes in your wife's brain for eternity you would crumble. You're halfway there. I pointed out that "burning in Hell" is only a metaphor for the eternal torture of Hell whatever that might be, so effectively, you really said you would do what some of the rest of would do anyway because you cannot choose what the torture is.

You would no more choose actual eternal torture if you could get out of it than any other human being would in the face of the reality of the scenario. You easily type out the words to say you could in the Internets - but that comes nowhere close to placing you in the reality of the choice. Several of us can understand what we would really do, some of us can't. I guess it's the internet tough guy syndrome for lack of a better term.

Quite.  For me, it means any posturing and complaining about how bad the Biblegod is, is - as Hal insists - just tough-guy internet posturing.  Like dissing the schoolyard bully when he's well out of earshot, when they know they will fawn over him when he appears.

Not at all. There is no evidence that this bully (Biblegod) exists, so the analogy fails. We are dealing with a hypothetical scenario in this thread. In reality NOW, we know of no gods that exist. The analogy fails in other regards too, because a human bully can be defeated with many methods such as cowtowing to it just long enough to defeat it later using other methods. That doesn't apply to Omnimax deities.

If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion  :P

Exactly. Thanks for the honesty.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 07:06:31 AM
I would definitely find a way to bring justice to all those that were tortured.

Bold statement except there's one tiny problem. You don't have the power to do that. So you worship IT or get eternal torture. You will not choose eternal torture and you know deep down you won't.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Mostly Harmless on June 09, 2012, 10:02:29 AM
One of the ways in which my faith has grown is through questions such as this.  Like many atheists, I cannot accept that a good God would burn somebody forever.  If I am to trust my conscience as something God gave me to discern right and wrong, then this is a place in which I must trust it. 

As I thought about this question, I went back to my Bible.  The lake of fire is in the Revelation.  I don't think it is meant to be taken literally, just as the dragons, harlots and beasts and cubicle cities are not meant to be understood literally.

When Jesus spoke of hell, he usually used the word "Gehenna", which was the city dump.  In it, there was a perpetual smoldering.  What is a good God to do with evil, broken humans?  Trash heap.  Annilhilation.  When they are dead, they are dead.  Similar to what atheists thinks happens to everyone.

Then there is the idea of "forever".  It occurred to me that, even in our universe, it would be possible for God to simultaneously annihilate something and also have it burn forever.  Time does not "march on".  It can be curved - infinitely in some places. 

Thus, a person thrown into a black hole would experience instant annihilation, but an observer on the outside might see that person infinitely compressed forever and ever. 

By the way, I'm not suggesting  hell is a black hole.  I'm merely saying we develop some weird ideas when we superimpose an incorrect view of the universe on our theology.  If the Christian god exists, He created the universe.  Therefore I need to take scientific knowledge very seriously when I think of Him (and anything else).

In any even, the idea of eternal torment involves a misunderstanding of time, and it could also involve a misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings. 

So... thankfully, I don't think anyone will have to make the choice -- worship or burn forever.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 09, 2012, 10:37:22 AM
One of the ways in which my faith has grown is through questions such as this.  Like many atheists, I cannot accept that a good God would burn somebody forever.  If I am to trust my conscience as something God gave me to discern right and wrong, then this is a place in which I must trust it. 

As I thought about this question, I went back to my Bible.  The lake of fire is in the Revelation.  I don't think it is meant to be taken literally, just as the dragons, harlots and beasts and cubicle cities are not meant to be understood literally.

When Jesus spoke of hell, he usually used the word "Gehenna", which was the city dump.  In it, there was a perpetual smoldering.  What is a good God to do with evil, broken humans?  Trash heap.  Annilhilation.  When they are dead, they are dead.  Similar to what atheists thinks happens to everyone.

Then there is the idea of "forever".  It occurred to me that, even in our universe, it would be possible for God to simultaneously annihilate something and also have it burn forever.  Time does not "march on".  It can be curved - infinitely in some places. 

Thus, a person thrown into a black hole would experience instant annihilation, but an observer on the outside might see that person infinitely compressed forever and ever. 

By the way, I'm not suggesting  hell is a black hole.  I'm merely saying we develop some weird ideas when we superimpose an incorrect view of the universe on our theology.  If the Christian god exists, He created the universe.  Therefore I need to take scientific knowledge very seriously when I think of Him (and anything else).

In any even, the idea of eternal torment involves a misunderstanding of time, and it could also involve a misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings. 

So... thankfully, I don't think anyone will have to make the choice -- worship or burn forever.

If Jesus did not mean hell to be a literal lake of fire where the damned are burning forever, his followers certainly did.  For centuries, believers  preached a literal burning of the damned.  It is only, recently, that believers have begun to postulate a different type of hell;   "absence of God", etc.   So, how would a loving God allow his followers to portray him as an unloving monster when this God could have easily corrected them?

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 09, 2012, 10:39:47 AM
HAL, were you actually looking for honest answers to your question, or was this just a thread to shoot down anyone who disagreed with your preconception?

And yes, I am well aware that I said I wasn't going to participate any further. My curiosity got the best of me.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 09, 2012, 11:38:23 AM
What you want to think or believe being aside, IMHO your claim is unbelievable and unachievable to any human being.

Don't you cease being human upon entering hell? You can't really know what your "soul" can handle in hell. It could be a cakewalk for all we know.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 11:41:38 AM
I have a few responses consolidated in this post.

HAL, were you actually looking for honest answers to your question, or was this just a thread to shoot down anyone who disagreed with your preconception?

Yea I'm looking for honest answers, but you don't seem to actually have an honest answer. I shoot down dishonesty, not honesty. Pumping yourself up on the internet like some kind of i-Superman when your frail humanity will buckle in the scenario is sheer dishonesty. You should take to heart some of the eloquent posts that are honest. You will be no hero son.

Quote
And yes, I am well aware that I said I wasn't going to participate any further. My curiosity got the best of me.

LOL - you can't resist the temptation to respond on a forum thread when you said you were done, but yet you want us to believe you can resist eternal torture? Give me a break! I think you should quit again while you have a chance.

And to the rest of the posters that said they would worship if that were the case - how easily you retracted on your original statements and postures - just with the threat of torture.  I know torture to a degree.  None of you would be able to enjoy a single day seeing something like that going on.  Pathetic.  You'd all be living in heaven in absolute terror of being sent a-down-below.

Jeremy - they are being honest. You should applaud them for understanding their humanity. You are the one who is being dishonest. Quite dishonest.

You "know torture to a degree"? That's a laughable remark if you expect me to now agree that a mere human such as yourself will choose eternal torture because they "know torture to a degree". If it was legal (it's not) and if I was a nasty enough person to do it (I'm not), I could easily make you worship me. I have enough tools in my garage to torture you to the breaking point in very little time. In just a few moments you will do anything I tell you to do, because the things I could do to break you are, well, let's just leave it to your imagination - children might be reading this. But to the point - I won't even have to, because you will realize your frailty and will start squealing like a stuck pig when I get within a few inches of the parts of your body I was aiming for with my torture device. You'll break before I do a thing like a cheap wine glass.

Even if you were brazen/foolish enough to still take me on because you would risk death to end it isn't going to cut it, because in the reality of the scenario we're talking about, death isn't an optional way out. So please - stop being an internet tough guy and admit the obvious. The longer you go on about resisting Biblegod because you think you are tough enough, the sillier you look.

Jeremy (or Nam or OAA) - have you ever watched the movie Deliverance. If you have you know what happened to the guys from the city when the mountain men got hold of them - they submitted to the demands of the mountain men very easily and quickly. Sure they got out of the situation but it wasn't their doing - they weren't willing to risk torture to resist. It was a pretty ugly and embarrassing scene, it's too bad Jeremy the Magnificent or OAA the i-Superman who can stand up to Biblegod wasn't one of the two who got caught right?

No, I picture you doing just what those city guys did in that situation or the scenario we're talking about here when you don't have a computer to hide behind. You'd be crying like a fucking stepchild asking to do whatever to get out of tortue. Next time I watch it I'll be putting Jeremy in place of the one squealing like a pig in his underwear, and OAA as the other pinned to the tree with a belt around his neck, because that's what you would do.

Protip: Jeremy, Nam, OAA - contact U.S. Special Forces - they could use the training you could provide. If you can stand up to gods they could certainly use you in some fashion I would think.

I suspect the reason some members are taking this internet tough guy stand is that they feel like they would be embarrassed if any Christians read that they would actually worship Biblegod after all the arguing against it on the forum. If they just keep typing out the tough guy stand all will be well with their reputations. I understand. But that doesn't mean you would actually stand up to the real thing if proven true. Common knowledge of human frailty shatters that idea. I also think that quite a few members agree with some of us that they would worship Biblegod to avoid eternal torture, but just don't want to admit it in front of members. I also understand that. You know who you are.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 09, 2012, 11:41:48 AM
If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion  :P

Exactly. Thanks for the honesty.

I'm pretty sure Lillia[1] shared this position of her "atheist" grandfather and "we[2]" told her he must have never been a true atheist.
 1. I think she's called GamerGirl here.
 2. This was at ATT
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 09, 2012, 11:48:23 AM
HAL, even in your hypothetical you have no way of knowing what decision someone may take. You can think their opinion is wrong, stupid, they'd regret it, or whatever else you want to think about their decision. But unless you became psychic overnight you have no idea what another person will choose. You can guess, you can speculate, you can assume, you can carefully calculate the probability. But you can't know.

I'm sure you can think of perfectly good examples of what decisions people will make IRL. But we are human, we make mistakes, we are often wrong, and we make choices we later regret. I don't see why we can expect anything less from our species in the afterlife. It's highly probable that some of us would make a different decision. If there is a choice, someone will eventually make the "wrong" choice.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 11:55:54 AM
HAL, even in your hypothetical you have no way of knowing what decision someone may take.

I said if they are sane they will not choose eternal torture. No sane person would actually do it. I know this - yes -because their humanity and knowledge of their frailty (which the i-Supermen won't admit to here) will not allow it. If they are not sane, even for a short amount of time, then I have no idea what they will do, I already covered that. I can't predict what insane people will do.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 09, 2012, 12:03:49 PM
Yea I'm looking for honest answers, but you don't seem to actually have an honest answer. I shoot down dishonesty, not honesty. Pumping yourself up on the internet like some kind of i-Superman when your frail humanity will buckle in the scenario is sheer dishonesty. You should take to heart some of the eloquent posts that are honest. You will be no hero son.

Tell me, HAL, how do you know that if, per your own argument, you can't imagine what it's like because nobody has been through anything close to it?

LOL - you can't resist the temptation to respond on a forum thread when you said you were done, but yet you want us to believe you can resist eternal torture? Give me a break! I think you should quit again while you have a chance.

Not "can't". "Won't". Enormous difference.
Also, there are things far more important to me than curiosity. You should know that, since you appear to know everything about everyone who disagrees with you. Or at least just enough to know how they'd react in a situation that no human being has ever been in.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 12:05:07 PM
Oh well. I'm done here. I don't need you to believe me. Keep on thinking that you know me better than I know myself if it makes you feel better.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 09, 2012, 12:11:58 PM
HAL, if you can't answer my questions without conceding, just say so. I'll get out of your hair, so to speak.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 12:17:13 PM
HAL, if you can't answer my questions without conceding, just say so. I'll get out of your hair, so to speak.

You need to learn to mean what you say son. Because of what you posted below - I certainly can't believe anything you tell me now. So yea, please get out of my hair (thread).

Oh well. I'm done here.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: One Above All on June 09, 2012, 12:19:46 PM
Hey, I'm just curious if you're as intellectually honest when it comes to proving you wrong than you are when it comes to proving you right. Clearly the answer is "No". I'll take your dodges as a concession.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 09, 2012, 12:47:37 PM
Hal what makes this God guy worthy of my praise? Is he a inter-breed spawn of other gods that may be cousins or worse brother and sister?  Why is this God of the WHOLE universe such a ignorant immature baby?

Knowing what we now about this god from what is written about him,he deserves no praise,but because he demands it I can be eternally punished.....sounds ludicrous.......If I fake praise will I get into heaven? or do I truly have to worship a god that is as close to an immature school bully as one could truly be?

If I could fake praise and avoid hell of course I would,to truly worship something far worse than Satans  is laughable....is there one flock out there that would truly praise this being.....who makes Hitler and every other tyrant who mass murdered people look like pussys
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: smiller on June 09, 2012, 01:54:33 PM
If bible God was empirically shown to exist, i would do everything i could in my lifetime to resist him and his followers, and then have a deathbed conversion  :P
Sounds like love and hate relationship

http://uuawayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/03/morning-meditation-love-and-hate-two.html

Love and hate- two sides of the same coin.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 09, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
Quote
author=HAL link=topic=22925.msg512490#msg512490 date=1339260098]

I suspect the reason some members are taking this internet tough guy stand is that they feel like they would be embarrassed if any Christians read that they would actually worship Biblegod after all the arguing against it on the forum. If they just keep typing out the tough guy stand all will be well with their reputations. I understand. But that doesn't mean you would actually stand up to the real thing if proven true. Common knowledge of human frailty shatters that idea. I also think that quite a few members agree with some of us that they would worship Biblegod to avoid eternal torture, but just don't want to admit it in front of members. I also understand that. You know who you are.

Here's one problem I think we're encountering in this discussion.  We're talking about "worshipping" and I think we are disagreeing about what is meant.

The posters who keep maintaining that they would not "worship" the torturing biblegod consider "worship" to mean love biblegod.   In this sense, they would be correct in that no one could love a torturer.   In fact, even though you might bow down and kiss ass, you would hate the torturer more and more.

I believe you, HAL, have used the term "worship" to mean bowing down, kissing ass, and serving the eternal torturer.  This is the way I have taken the term.
Because I take the term in this sense, I know I would end up kissing ass to a torturer who could fry me on a griddle for five minutes let alone eternally.
And every last conscious human being would do this.  There are no exceptions, no tough guys who could stand such torture without end.  Earthly torture has an end and, if the pain and trauma becomes too much, the brain has a mechanism by which it shuts down consciousness.  So, in a sense, tough guys can take a good deal of torture, on this earth, because of going unconscious within moments or because they know it will end at some point.

But, if a human being is faced with the prospect of having their flesh fryed for a conscious eternity, that human being will kiss ass without exception.  Any human, who believes they would not, is lying or doesn't really know themselves.

So, if I'm right, Hal is not talking about loving this torturer, Hal is talking about kissing ass.  Is this right, Hal?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jeremy0 on June 09, 2012, 02:43:57 PM
If the biblegod can send anyone to this hell that he chooses, would we really have a choice?  And going by the affects of prayer, does this biblegod really have the power over me to 'send' me to a hell where 'torture' would be carried out by his 'satan enemy'?

By my reasoning, the biblegod is insane.  If he had all the power to do the above, then yes, I would kiss his ass just so the fucker won't torture me.  But like I said, his days would be numbered if that were plausible...

Because yes, you are right, a certain amount of torture where you do not become unconcious or die will break me.  But I'd hate that bastard god with all my might for doing it to even one person.  That's a satan god, not a bible god..
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 02:59:44 PM
Hal what makes this God guy worthy of my praise?

Nothing.

The only reason to worship it is to get out of eternal torture, which any sane person will do. Insane people or temporary insanity - I cannot account for what they will do.

Quote
Is he a inter-breed spawn of other gods that may be cousins or worse brother and sister?  Why is this God of the WHOLE universe such a ignorant immature baby?

I don't know. Interesting questions but not relevant to the issues at hand. He is what he is and he's gonna torture your ass forever unless you worship it.

Quote
Knowing what we now about this god from what is written about him,he deserves no praise,but because he demands it I can be eternally punished.....sounds ludicrous.......

Yet that is the hypothetical we are dealing with.

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If I fake praise will I get into heaven? or do I truly have to worship a god that is as close to an immature school bully as one could truly be?

You have to worship it to avoid eternal torture. If the real scenario was to exist, where it was proven that Biblegod exists prior to your death, you will worship it (unless you are insane) to avoid eternal torture. All sane people will. Even the i-net Supermen we have as members.

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If I could fake praise and avoid hell of course I would, ...

Well thank you 12 Monkeys, another honest answer to the OP. I commend you for understanding your own humanity and being willing to openly say so. You are apparantly among the few who do, or at least are willing to be openly honest about it on the forum.

Oh by the way I have some PMs sent to me which are agreeing with my points. They shall remain anonymous of course.

Let me be clear because I think some people are still confused to a certain extent. I do not believe that Biblegod is real, I don't know how it could be proven to be real, and I don't plan on "converting" on my death bed to "play it safe".

But, if somehow it were proven to be real BEFORE I died, and hence the realization that Hell is real and you get sent there if you do not worship this deity, at that point, yes, I will worship it. Any sane person will try to get out of eternal torture, if you say otherwise you disregard your own humanity that will be an overbearing force should this scenario become real.

If it's real, and I do not convert before I die, then I'm as fucked as everyone else that didn't worship it (well, unless it gives one last chance when you stand before it).
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 03:05:18 PM
The posters who keep maintaining that they would not "worship" the torturing biblegod consider "worship" to mean love biblegod.   In this sense, they would be correct in that no one could love a torturer.   In fact, even though you might bow down and kiss ass, you would hate the torturer more and more.

I believe you, HAL, have used the term "worship" to mean bowing down, kissing ass, and serving the eternal torturer.  This is the way I have taken the term.
Because I take the term in this sense, I know I would end up kissing ass to a torturer who could fry me on a griddle for five minutes let alone eternally.
And every last conscious human being would do this.  There are no exceptions, no tough guys who could stand such torture without end.  Earthly torture has an end and, if the pain and trauma becomes too much, the brain has a mechanism by which it shuts down consciousness.  So, in a sense, tough guys can take a good deal of torture, on this earth, because of going unconscious within moments or because they know it will end at some point.

But, if a human being is faced with the prospect of having their flesh fryed for a conscious eternity, that human being will kiss ass without exception.  Any human, who believes they would not, is lying or doesn't really know themselves. So, if I'm right, Hal is not talking about loving this torturer, Hal is talking about kissing ass.  Is this right, Hal?

Yes quite right. All of it. Thanks for the post.

If the biblegod can send anyone to this hell that he chooses, would we really have a choice?  And going by the affects of prayer, does this biblegod really have the power over me to 'send' me to a hell where 'torture' would be carried out by his 'satan enemy'?

That's what the xians tell me, and for this scenario yes it can do it.

Quote
By my reasoning, the biblegod is insane.  If he had all the power to do the above, then yes, I would kiss his ass just so the fucker won't torture me.  But like I said, his days would be numbered if that were plausible...

Thanks for the honest answer.

Quote
Because yes, you are right, a certain amount of torture where you do not become unconcious or die will break me.  But I'd hate that bastard god with all my might for doing it to even one person.  That's a satan god, not a bible god..

Again, quite correct. It's an asshole but what can you do about it? Nothing.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 09, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
so faking it is ok or not......? every sane person would fake it....we do it for our in-laws,our old friends who now we despise and other related family members like the drunken uncle  or the druggie step-child....if we can fake it im in....if i worship out of fear because he knows my every thought it could be done as well.....like that kid in the twilight zone who punished his family members if they thought bad thoughts about him.....but where is this loving God theists are always telling us about?

 Would we get Stockholm syndrome....be like Patty Hearst? after a while we are praising this God but are unsure why.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 03:44:27 PM
so faking it is ok or not......? every sane person would fake it....we do it for our in-laws,our old friends who now we despise and other related family members like the drunken uncle  or the druggie step-child....if we can fake it im in....if i worship out of fear because he knows my every thought it could be done as well.....like that kid in the twilight zone who punished his family members if they thought bad thoughts about him.....

Worshiping is physical. Love is mental. Worship consists of the actions required to satisfy the object of the worship. If Biblegod wants dead lizards placed at the bottom of an altar made so and so, and it wants you to drip the blood of a lamb on your big toe every seven days, and burn certain things for it to sniff, then you either do those things or your don't. If you do them, whether you like doing them or not, you are worshiping it not faking it. If you don't, you aren't worshiping it properly.

Quote
but where is this loving God theists are always telling us about?

I don't know. But as in real life - you gotta do something to show love. Take your wife or GF - if you say you love her and never do anything to show it, then would they believe you love them? Same thing for Biblegod. You gotta play the game. Show the love baby, show the love! (and stay out of Hell). You show it love by worshiping it and it shows you love by not torturing you. I know - a demented asshole for sure but he's got the Powa.

Quote
Would we get Stockholm syndrome....be like Patty Hearst? after a while we are praising this God but are unsure why.

Good question. Perhaps that is what will happen and Biblegod knows it. Maybe that's how you get converted. In any case I don't give a damn what happens as long as I get out of Hell. I'm no internet Superman and I'm not going to sit here and tell fibs about what grand actions I'd do when I know damn well I'd buckle like a wet piece of cardboard.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Aerial on June 09, 2012, 03:48:35 PM
Seeing as I comply when put to pain in life....I reckon helllfire torment would make me fake it for the bastard. Ya do what ya have to do sometimes, wish I were as brave as some.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 09, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.

So, you're saying that every person who has ever been tortured, consistently, throughout history, that every single one of them ended up kissing the ass of their torturer? Do I laugh now, or do you want me to wait 'til later? 'Cause unless you can show evidence of this you're just giving an unfounded and frankly biased opinion.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 09, 2012, 06:02:36 PM
...I am sure they are happy that they are free from it and I am sure they don't want to go through it ever again.

You're sure? Well, that just solves it all, then. Really? Is that your reply: I am sure -- opinion backed up by what you perceive to be true in the minds of others. Are you becoming like Hal, now? Speaking about the mindset of others.

Let me put it another way: does a war truly end for all those who come home from war? Studies have shown that some soldiers bring home the war, and it is with them their entire life.

Quote
Also, one difference between any situation (I've already mentioned) in our finite existence and eternal torture is that there is no hope, there is no way out, there's no end, it doesn't stop, nobody can save you from it once it begins, otherwise it ceases to be eternal.

There may be truth in that, but then again, there might not be. That's an assumption with some weight but as An American Tail taught me as a child: never say never. If Satan tried to take the "throne", then who's to say it wouldn't in the future? Or, maybe Biblegod would be like our politicians and "change its mind" about the whole fire & brimstone thing.

See, I can assume, too. It's so easy.


Quote
Nor do you and that's kind of the point.

You're right, I don't. But Hal thinks that I couldn't last 10-15 seconds, which implies that probably no one else could either. See, he states his opinion as a fact, where as in concern to me, what I state as a fact should hold more water but in his opinion that's not true. He's using condescion to state he's correct--are you?

I mean, I know what I'd do: I've been doing it all my life--why would I change my mind if presented with the choice: though, as others have pointed out: there really isn't a choice, and we'd all be going there anyway.[1]

Quote
And you've yet to show a single example where you've been tested to know what you can endure and how you'd endure it. But even then, to say you can endure constant torture for even as little as a googolplex years and still feel it's better than being a sell out is a pretty bold claim and I don't think you've really had anything to back it up.

You want my personal baggage? Fine. Between 7-10 years old, I went to a babysitter. Her name was[2] Faye O------. She had a very nice husband, and son. Her mother was cruel but not as cruel as her. She made her own father use the bathroom outside. That meant he urinated, and defecated outside. Now, granted he was a mean old man, and probably treated her, like she treated me and a couple other kids she babysat but still...even when he died, which was outside where she made him be most of the time, she didn't call for someone to remove his body for more than 3 hours. She was busy watching her soap opera[3]; and she made a few of us kids stay outside to make sure any animals stayed away. I was 8 years old, athat time. She forced a few of us to clean her house, mow her yard, pull weeds, pick up cigarette butts, etc., and if we didn't do it just the way she wanted us to, she'd take a really thick belt, with a thick buckle, and spank us with it. Sometimes she'd miss our butts and hit our backs, and legs. She was so skilled at it, that she knew how to hit us without leaving much of a bruise on us. And, when we'd complain to our parents, she'd make up some convincing lie, and then we became liars and heathens.

My last year there, there was only two of us left. One of the previous children, a girl named Christy L-----, who I had my first kiss with, she ended up attempting suicide several times throughout her life based on the things Faye did to her. She was even on Oprah in the mid 1990s to speak about it. I didn't see the episode. The last time I saw her was in 1990. Haven't seen her since. One of the other boys, he did commit suicide based on what she made him and me do together, which I won't get into here. He was 11 years old when he committed suicide.

See, most of the kids she watched she took care of but some of us were "special", and she treated us like shit. Literally. See, we too could only use the bathroom outside. Behind the shed.

Now, I could say my life got better after not having to go to her but it actually got worse, in some ways. But unlike those uf us treated like shit: I did survive.

I told you some really bad things that happened to me there for 3 years but I left out the really horrible stuff. I saw her years later, and I would've killed her if my friend didn't talk me out of it. She's a person deserving of endless torture.

Quote
Again, this is the point. We'd have to make the decision without any of those tests to know how far we could take it, how far we could endure it. Yes, I'd suggest every man has his breaking point, just because there are men who have endured does not mean they have a breaking point, it just means it hasn't been reached. We have to consider what the psychological effects here, we have a basic fight or flight response system and when faced with constant threat that's our operating system. Our brain has coping systems, but that doesn't mean you're psychologically sound. You're looking at anxiety and then you're looking at depression and with those in mind there's doors open to other psychological effects. There's an eternity for them to manifest, to break you down. You may even get to that stage where you beg for forgiveness because it's a way out. In essence, taking the 'flight' response.

The insane have no mentality.

Get it? That much torture would drive one insane, and the insane don't think sanely. These questions wouldn't arise from a person after having a mind that's no longer there. The questions then become moot.

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If knowing there is a god and we know which one and which version then pascal's wager does apply. I hate it and it does pain me to say it, but I don't think I'd take the 'torture' option just to find out I don't have the constitution I thought I had to withstand eternal torture. It's horrible thought having to kiss up to this deity, you might have seen in my posts my general dislike of bible-God and how horrific I think he is and even if given the opportunity (if he existed) I'd like to see him dead. Kissing up to that is a horrific idea. But I'd know that by giving in I'd have have plenty of time to come to terms with it. I'd already be self deluded by the time I've come to heaven. I'd probably find people I'd enjoy heaven with and find much to help me forget that I sold myself out. If the gift of heaven is eternal bliss, if that is the reward I receive then my initial conflicts of interest would pass. It even feels dirty saying it, but I feel that it is the honest thing for this hypothetical situation.

And that's the road you, Hal, and many others would take. It's not the road I'd take.

Quote
You have the knowledge that those who have suffered torture would avoid it, yet you'd take the choice to dive straight in? I'm not sure that you would. You know that you're up against an all-powerful, all-knowing being who is infinite and that he wishes to give you eternal torture, because in this hypothetical situation it has been revealed to you. You may not know what its like, but when it comes to that fight-or-flight response, I am sure you know what fighting means for you, even if you lack the experience of what it may even be like or can even comprehend the extent of it. You don't have to have been hit by a bus to know that when one's coming your way that your "fight" response is not a good idea. Subconsciously you'll know this too, which is why your natural response is to 'flight', if you wish to commit suicide you may try to override your subconscious to go for a 'fight' response.

And of course, once we know there's a god and we know which god and which version, suddenly pascal's wager starts to make sense. Are you going to want to take the risk to find out if you can take it? Without knowing your own abilities and without knowing your own thresholds?

I wonder: is one truly an atheist if they cave in when a dead end arises?

-Nam
 1. hypothetically speaking of course
 2. or "is", don't know if she's still alive, or not.
 3. Days of Our Lives if you wish to know.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 09, 2012, 06:05:11 PM
lets also get a clear definition of heaven so we know what the alternative to hell is........could,for the non believer be actually worse than hell
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Graybeard on June 09, 2012, 06:14:02 PM
OK, so He appears in all His Glory. Does this not mean that there would be other gods? I would like a choice.

I rather favour Enki, I later known as Ea in Akkadian and Babylonian mythology. He was originally patron god of the city of Eridu, but later the influence of his cult spread throughout Mesopotamia and to the Hittites and Hurrians. He was the deity of crafts (gašam); mischief; water, seawater, and lakewater (a, aba, ab), intelligence (gestú, literally "ear") and creation (Nudimmud: nu, likeness, dim mud, make bear).His symbols included a goat and a fish, which later combined into a single beast, the goat Capricorn. He was also fond of beer and brewers.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 09, 2012, 06:15:23 PM

There's only one thing that could torture me, cause me real pain but I've gone through it enough times in my life that my response is: I'm still here.

Not that I hadn't tried not to be in the past but I survived each attempt, unwillingly.

-Nam
Well Nam, I think when it comes to god and hell (hypothetically speaking) I don't think it's a matter of being here or being survived.

For example, I want you to light up a cig. and dab it under your chin for 2 minutes, or maybe 10 seconds (Don't try this at home kids.)  Maybe you can endure this because, only because you know that the pain will end eventually.  But in hell, hell no it ain't gonna end.

What you want to think or believe being aside, IMHO your claim is unbelievable and unachievable to any human being.



If you actually read my posts from the original place this topic started from you'd have read that I have not only held a lit cigarette to my skin without flinching or crying, or screaming in pain but I have also done it with a cigar[1] and I once shot a staple from a staple gun int my left hand[2].

-Nam
 1. Tampa Nugget
 2. not a stapler, the staples for fence posts
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 09, 2012, 06:21:31 PM
The paramaters for God showing his existance means what?  a magic show of Penn and Teller preportion? or will he actually do something for the starving children who pray to him not to die for lack of food? 

 If he existed what proof would be sufficient,what would we ask as proof he is God,end all war and suffering? Then he may be worthy of praise,but he has not done much for those who suffer so far. If he ended war and suffering (what I would ask of him),would I also ask why he chooses to impress me now and not 40 years or 100 or even 1000 years ago.


 Then again this God seems to get his giggles from war and suffering.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 09, 2012, 06:29:17 PM
lets also get a clear definition of heaven so we know what the alternative to hell is........could,for the non believer be actually worse than hell

As I stated before: it'd be more of a hell for me, if I had to praise and worship such a vile deity. Which is why "physical" pain seems more applicable to me. At least I know what that feels like, and I have a better chance at not going insane.

:P

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 09, 2012, 06:31:27 PM
lets also get a clear definition of heaven so we know what the alternative to hell is........could,for the non believer be actually worse than hell

As I stated before: it'd be more of a hell for me, if I had to praise and worship such a vile deity. Which is why "physical" pain seems more applicable to me. At least I know what that feels like, and I have a better chance at not going insane.

:P

-Nam
my exact point,more hell than hell
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 09, 2012, 07:37:36 PM
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.

So, you're saying that every person who has ever been tortured, consistently, throughout history, that every single one of them ended up kissing the ass of their torturer? Do I laugh now, or do you want me to wait 'til later? 'Cause unless you can show evidence of this you're just giving an unfounded and frankly biased opinion.

-Nam

I addressed this in a later post but I'll repeat it, here.  With earthly torture, the torturer cannot get too brutal or the tortured will lose consciousness or die or go insane and this ends the torture.  So, the torturer might inflict a certain degree of pain for a period of time and then have to stop and return again later.  This is the, "consistently", you are talking about. 

In contrast, eternal torture never ends, never lessens, one never gets used to it, doesn't pass out or go insane. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: smiller on June 09, 2012, 08:04:00 PM
If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.
At least to me, extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence.

Are you really saying you are going to deliberately choose hell over heaven just because of your personal favorism or opinion?

Dying for something or somebody is one thing, because the pain ENDS, but excruciating pain for eternity in hell,..hell no!!! I honestly don't care what I have to do when it come to something like that.

Am I being too honest?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 08:12:50 PM
Am I being too honest?

No, you are just right.

Nam's blustery diatribes ring hollow for those of us who understand our humanity. No matter what life experiences he's had, it's no match for Biblegod's wrath. He'll cave like a wet piece of spaghetti and he knows it full well. He does like posting to the contrary though, which is somewhat entertaining I suppose.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Brakeman on June 09, 2012, 08:15:22 PM
On the other hand, if heaven is a steady constant, never changing, as we suppose it would be because "god's" plan will be complete,  there would be no change to gage time with on suffering. A second and a billion years would be indistinguishable without a changing environment. As your mind would be finished, all thoughts complete, how would you think about the pain?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jeremy0 on June 09, 2012, 08:16:30 PM
If you actually read my posts from the original place this topic started from you'd have read that I have not only held a lit cigarette to my skin without flinching or crying, or screaming in pain but I have also done it with a cigar[1] and I once shot a staple from a staple gun int my left hand[2].

-Nam
 1. Tampa Nugget
 2. not a stapler, the staples for fence posts
Nam:  I also have a very high tolerance to pain.  I used to play a fun game with people in highschool where I'd put our arms together and set my lit cigarette in-between.  The first to pull away was the loser.  I always won.  At a later date I was fixing someone's computer and said - watch this - and put my cigarette out on my forearm.  Didn't even skip a beat. 

Now that saying, yeah, I've been through some shit that I would consider torture.  That said, if you can't die or not pass out from the pain, it would really, really bit the shit.  But the only kind of god that would do something like that is the god of our bibles, hence my term 'the satan god'.  A god who would use torture as a means of control - eternal torture - is affectively no different from satan...[3] 

That's also why I said it would be the case that the living would remain in so much terror of this god, that they would wish he wasn't real, and hence an uprising would occur against that god.[4]

That said, the real choice in this hypothetical is to worship an evil and cruel dictator, or die endlessly.  That's not much of a choice, but most rational people would choose the former, even if there really isn't a point. But it still doesn't invalidate my claim on human nature that such a god would be overthrown by his own creations/angels/demons/satan/etc...  Nobody would stand for such abuse of power for a sustained period of time unless that dictator was so powerful as to do anything he wants, which in case most people would probably like to die fighting anyway than living with the brutality.

What I'm saying is, Nan has some valid points, so I too I guess does everyone else.  It's a shitty situation that would take some thought before diving into. 

That said, now we can see it's a good thing that the biblegod doesn't actually exist...
 3. As noted in other forum posts.
 4. As we've seen time and time again in history with any cruel and horrific dictator
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 09, 2012, 08:50:21 PM
I repeat.  If there is a torturer who is capable of roasting  your flesh on a hot griddle forever and ever and that pain never lessens; you never get used to it; you will kiss that torturers bright red rosy ass if he commands you to do it.  Each and every last poster here will do it and so will every human being who ever lived if that human being has a conscious mind to reason with.

The discussion is not about what punishment the bible hell has in store for those who won't bow down to bible god.  The discussion is about a hell of burning fire that never ends.

So, you're saying that every person who has ever been tortured, consistently, throughout history, that every single one of them ended up kissing the ass of their torturer? Do I laugh now, or do you want me to wait 'til later? 'Cause unless you can show evidence of this you're just giving an unfounded and frankly biased opinion.

-Nam

I addressed this in a later post but I'll repeat it, here.  With earthly torture, the torturer cannot get too brutal or the tortured will lose consciousness or die or go insane and this ends the torture.  So, the torturer might inflict a certain degree of pain for a period of time and then have to stop and return again later.  This is the, "consistently", you are talking about. 

In contrast, eternal torture never ends, never lessens, one never gets used to it, doesn't pass out or go insane. 

How do you know? Have you been eternally tortured? Do you know someone who has? You can't say definitively that it wouldn't go the same as earthly torture, nor can I say it couldn't. What I do know is, for me: i'd still choose "eternal hell/torture" over praising/worshipping Biblegod.

You have people here stating that they'd choose something they do not believe in, and even if hypothetically it was all true, they'd pretend to believe just to spare themselves such a hell. But, what they don't get is: if they do not believe, or let's say they do because Biblegod shows adequate evidence that it does exist, and all, how are they to "love", and "praise" and "worship" a being they find repugnant? They'll "fake it". Biblegod, according to the Bible, is all-knowing. How are they to "fake it" to such a being? They couldn't. So, they'll be going to hell just as sure as I would be, but, the difference is: I, and those here who agree with me, and would choose hell, whether "we" can endure it, or not is irrelevant, we didn't, or feel we wouldn't, give up our own moral/ethical standing based on what "we" currently believe to be true, which plays a role in such a perception.

I mean, the atheists here talk all the time about how bad Biblegod, the Bible, and the actions taken by some that follow it, as being in of itself: vile, immoral, and the like. Yet, when push comes to shove: they seem to be the ones who are "all talk", not us.

They seem to be no different than those they speak out against. They seem to be no different than the religions they speak out against.

If you're so strongly against something, or for something, to give in so easily: that's ridiculous, to me.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 09, 2012, 08:53:35 PM
You have people here stating that they'd choose something they do not believe in, ...

You either aren't reading or comprehending the scenario Nam. That explains a lot of your rather silly nonsense responses in the thread.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 09, 2012, 09:49:40 PM
Hal, you came into this topic, that you started thinking just like a religious person: I'm right, everyone else is wrong. And, then after a few posts you changed your initial OP to be more suited to your viewpoint. You keep making this about "me", and what I know, or do not know about the hypothetical that you changed more than once. Others disagreed with you: in your mind: they too are all wrong. Why? 'Cause you're right.

You stated as a fact that you I couldn't last 15[1] seconds in Hell 'cause you know my mind better than I apparently do. Hell, you said the same thing to other posters here.

You can smite me all you want but I find it strange that I'm the only one who's smited you for your opinion as being facts. Or how you basically insulted others by stating that what they know about themselves is nonsense, and you are an authority on the subject because you say you are, or at least imply it with your rhetoric.

I think Angauflar[2] was correct: you must have some personal issue with me. I mean ever since you banned me for life on your website you made it impossible for me to message you, and you ignored me 'til just recently. Whatever it is: get over it.

Others may be afraid to smite you: I'm not. Personally I think you're trying to provoke me to respond in a way so you can have me banned for life here, too. It wouldn't be the first time someone's done that to me, and I doubt it'd be the last.

-Nam
 1. originally 10
 2. I apologize if I misspelled the name
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 09, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
Just want to clarify.  You are calling me a liar or insane, is that correct?

It's not an either/or like you seem to think. You just don't know yourself like you think you do when it comes to this scenario. I realize that aggravates you when I say it but I can't help that.

Well, its clearly an important issue to you for some reason that you prove that you know me better than I do myself - that you're willing to thoroughly piss a lot of people off to prove yourself right.  So you go ahead and enjoy it.

EDIT: Just noticed Nam's post above.  Seems he's pissed you off so much for some reason that everyone else involved is just collateral damage.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: rickymooston on June 10, 2012, 08:20:15 AM
I want to thank Nam for this topic. Here's what Nam says about it -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

I think that's a ridiculous claim - that you have enough knowledge of the consequences of eternal Hell to make such an arrogant claim. As I said - talk on the Internets is cheap. When it comes to reality (if this were true) who here would choose to go to Hell and burn forever?

I wouldn't.

Lol, i wouldnt either. How did such an obvious game throry question span 7 pages?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: rickymooston on June 10, 2012, 08:28:13 AM
Personally I think you're trying to provoke me to respond in a way so you can have me banned for life here, too

Why is that so easy to do?

You mentioned in your response, that you would not pretend believe

The scenario is, you are faced with CLEAR evidence for God, are staring at him in the face, forced to admit you were wrong and worship him or burn in hell.

Becsuse, yiu didnt answer the question, i would say hal's last smite was justified
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 10, 2012, 09:48:38 AM
You have people here stating that they'd choose something they do not believe in,

That's not what the scenario is about.

At all.

Quote
... and even if hypothetically it was all true, they'd pretend to believe just to spare themselves such a hell.

Again, another mental fail - if the scenario was hypothetically true they wouldn't be pretending to believe. You just rendered your entire response meaningless as pertains to this scenario. This is the reason you get into trouble on forums - you don't take the time to think about what you are reading. You're in too much of a hurry to show off your blustery facade.

If you actually read my posts from the original place this topic started from you'd have read that I have not only held a lit cigarette to my skin without flinching or crying, or screaming in pain but I have also done it with a cigar[1] and I once shot a staple from a staple gun int my left hand not a stapler, the staples for fence posts.
 1. Tampa Nugget

This prepares you for eternal torture? In Hell you might have a red hot cigar the size of a baseball bat shoved up your ass, and another shoved into your mouth, until they both meet in the middle of your guts, burning through all your internal organs. Lather, rinse, repeat. But I'll let the audience decide if they believe that what you experienced would prepare you oh tough one.

Personally I think you're trying to provoke me to respond in a way so you can have me banned for life here, too. It wouldn't be the first time someone's done that to me, and I doubt it'd be the last.

Have you ever been diagnosed with paranoia?

Well, its clearly an important issue to you for some reason that you prove that you know me better than I do myself - that you're willing to thoroughly piss a lot of people off to prove yourself right.

People got a little riled up for sure, but did you notice that most of them admitted in the end they would worship Biblegod rather than suffering eternal torture? I commend anyone who realizes their own humanity will rule the day in this scenario. I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.

When I see people stating obviously wrong positions yes I keep at it until they understand they are wrong. Just like you are wrong, but have yet to admit it. I think you're beginning to realize it though, because you didn't address what was in my entire post to you. You will not choose eternal torture. I know this to be true. Don't pretend to be able to ignore your own frail humanity in front of an actual choice that would be before you - worship Biblegod or suffer eternal torture. I'll turn the tables on you Anfauglir - why is it so important to you that you keep at a position that you know you would not choose if you considered your own humanity in the face of the real thing? This is not like you at all. You are not going to sit there and say "Hmmm ... I don't know what this torture is going to be like so - fuck it - I'll take the chance! Send me to Hell Biblegod - Yay!" You won't take the slightest chance of risking unimaginable pain. Yea Anfauglir, I'm calling bullshit on you. I don't like doing this but someone has to.

You are not considering all the possibilities either. You have a family right, or loved ones? Suppose if this scenario were true you all were standing there and your wife (or loved ones) decided to buckle and worship Biblegod (well maybe she is a Christian now - I do not know), and so your children too? Even if you keep at this silly proposition that you would not worship Biblegod, you would change your mind and stay with your family if they decided to avoid eternal torture. So it just isn't believeable that you won't do it.

What I'm trying to do is make sure people don't get carried away with false bluster in their own minds. I've been on these forums for years bashing the imaginary character of Biblegod, and so have most of us. It's fun and since there's no good evidence it exists (or any other deity) there's no reason not to. But I know that if it were somehow proven to exist - all of us will quickly change our tunes (yes even mighty SuperNam) in the face of the real choice we'd have - worship it or suffer eternal torture. Anyone who claims otehrwise is fooling themselves (unless they are insane). This includes YOU.

Quote
So you go ahead and enjoy it.

I'm not particularly enjoying it and I'm risking some people being mad at me, it takes a lot of time to respond to all the posts. Neither do I enjoy the thought of the scenario coming true.

Quote
EDIT: Just noticed Nam's post above.  Seems he's pissed you off so much for some reason that everyone else involved is just collateral damage.

Nam takes a lot of work to get his mind straight on some things. I've known his personna for some time and it's mostly bluster behind a screen. I can pretty much tell when he's arguing just for the sake of arguing or not (hint, hint).
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 10, 2012, 03:03:45 PM
Worshipping God because he wants worship,but does not care if you mean it is one thing,having to worship a God who can tell if you are doing it to avoid hell is another matter.

 To avoid eternal punishment by burning a few goats to please him,anybody would do that.....having him  see what you feel as you fake your way through it......would that NOT get you sent to hell?

 Anybody can fake worship.....
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: rickymooston on June 10, 2012, 03:14:07 PM
Worshipping God because he wants worship,but does not care if you mean it is one thing,having to worship a God who can tell if you are doing it to avoid hell is another matter.

 To avoid eternal punishment by burning a few goats to please him,anybody would do that.....having him  see what you feel as you fake your way through it......would that NOT get you sent to hell?

 Anybody can fake worship.....

In the scenario presented, one hss to assume, the choice would not be a false one. That is, that you would not get burned for thought crimes
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 10, 2012, 04:13:03 PM
Worshipping God because he wants worship,but does not care if you mean it is one thing,having to worship a God who can tell if you are doing it to avoid hell is another matter.

 To avoid eternal punishment by burning a few goats to please him,anybody would do that.....having him  see what you feel as you fake your way through it......would that NOT get you sent to hell?

It's not a problem. You're only human - He knows that. He's gonna forgive you of your sins if you worship him, that's the whole bargain. So if your mind strays, well, that's forgiven.

Quote
Anybody can fake worship.....

No, I already explained this Monkeys. Worship is just the composite acts required of the deity to show reverence to it. You either do them or don't do them - you can't "fake" worship. If you do the acts you are worshiping no matter what you are thinking. The acts are worship.

Look, let's say I was the deity. I say to worship me you have to make a gallon of grape Kool Aid and pour it over the heads of the elders at my altar of PC cases I made you build. You do that and you are worshiping me, even all the while thinking what a stupid asshole I am. Even if I read your mind I don't give a shit what you think, just perform the worship or else. The acts are what I need to feel good because I'm into vanity - just like Biblegod. Just thinking I'm great isn't what I'm into - you gotta do stuff for me, even if it's stupid (read Leviticus if you don't know what I'm talking about). So Biblegod's vanity requires you do things - not think things. That's worship.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 10, 2012, 05:32:30 PM
as I stated I can burm goats and not really have a second thought about it......can go to a worship hall and sing and not even think about it.....like so many Christians now who fake it as they go to church on Sunday,they are there,they are singing hymms.....then they are going home and fucking the baby-sitter,working on the Sabbath,not killing adulterers or homosexuals......they are doing the worship part and faking it the rest of the time not living according to the rules this God guy set out for them

 ANY moron can worship in this manner,just because I do the act of worship does not mean I have reverence for the diety or that I even care,I am just doing an act,like paying my taxes.....do I wanna NO,do I do it YES.....WHY? I do not have interest in the punishment they may have for me.

 I have poured the kool-aid on the heads of the elders,becuase you need it to avoid punishing me......are you happy ;D?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 11, 2012, 06:48:04 AM
Well, its clearly an important issue to you for some reason that you prove that you know me better than I do myself - that you're willing to thoroughly piss a lot of people off to prove yourself right.

People got a little riled up for sure, but did you notice that most of them admitted in the end they would worship Biblegod rather than suffering eternal torture? I commend anyone who realizes their own humanity will rule the day in this scenario. I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.

When I see people stating obviously wrong positions yes I keep at it until they understand they are wrong. Just like you are wrong, but have yet to admit it. I think you're beginning to realize it though, because you didn't address what was in my entire post to you. You will not choose eternal torture. I know this to be true. Don't pretend to be able to ignore your own frail humanity in front of an actual choice that would be before you - worship Biblegod or suffer eternal torture. I'll turn the tables on you Anfauglir - why is it so important to you that you keep at a position that you know you would not choose if you considered your own humanity in the face of the real thing? This is not like you at all. You are not going to sit there and say "Hmmm ... I don't know what this torture is going to be like so - fuck it - I'll take the chance! Send me to Hell Biblegod - Yay!" You won't take the slightest chance of risking unimaginable pain. Yea Anfauglir, I'm calling bullshit on you. I don't like doing this but someone has to.

You are not considering all the possibilities either. You have a family right, or loved ones? Suppose if this scenario were true you all were standing there and your wife (or loved ones) decided to buckle and worship Biblegod (well maybe she is a Christian now - I do not know), and so your children too? Even if you keep at this silly proposition that you would not worship Biblegod, you would change your mind and stay with your family if they decided to avoid eternal torture. So it just isn't believeable that you won't do it.

What I'm trying to do is make sure people don't get carried away with false bluster in their own minds. I've been on these forums for years bashing the imaginary character of Biblegod, and so have most of us. It's fun and since there's no good evidence it exists (or any other deity) there's no reason not to. But I know that if it were somehow proven to exist - all of us will quickly change our tunes (yes even mighty SuperNam) in the face of the real choice we'd have - worship it or suffer eternal torture. Anyone who claims otehrwise is fooling themselves (unless they are insane). This includes YOU.

You are assuming that I've not given this any thought at all.  I have.  The question has been on my mind damn-near constantly since it was first posed.  And I hope that I would still have the strength of conviction to deny the creature that I firmly believe is a monster, no matter what happens to me.  Because if I don't, then what is the point?

It would mean that I would fall down in front of the thing I regard as most wrong, most evil, most despicable there could be.  You may feel that that is a position that can be taken easily - I don't.  Standing for what I think is right is important to me - though I DO have worries over whether I would, at time of crunch, have the strength to go through with it.  But to say, right here and now, "yeah, I'll do whatever to save myself?"  No, that I won't do - not least because it would be the start of the slippery path to justification that might be the tipping point to my caving in.

You claim that you know me.  Then you will also know how I would feel to accept that my personal safety means more to me than standing up for what is right.  The best people in the world, to me, are those who risk themselves for their convictions.  Your point - ultimately - is that every person in the world will ultimately choose self over conviction.  And if that's what is going to happen, then what IS the point?  If that's the final result, then all the "fun" we have hear is pointless - whistling past the graveyard, "I don't believe in spooks, I don't , I don't , I DON'T" - and to say that, when push comes to shove we would essentially recant on everything we ever bother saying here, then.....well, agree your point, and in my opinion it makes ALL our posturings here pointless and rather childish.

I further believe that even by pushing this point it makes this website pointless.  The committed Christians that come here KNOW that god exists.  So if you are correct, there is no way at all that they will ever renounce their god because of our sophistry and clever arguments that show how evil god really is.  Even if on some level they think we may be right, THEIR choice (of worship or burn) IS already being made.  Its not a hypothetical maybe some years down the line - its NOW, and always.  So not one person who knows Christ will have their position swayed by this website.

It also gives great support to the view that anyone who becomes an atheist was never truly a Christian.  Someone who is a Christian KNOWS god exists - and so, again, they make that choice on a daily basis.  You've stressed that there is only one choice to make in that position - continued belief and worship - so how could one lose belief in that position, knowing that to do so means they are making the "torture" choice?

From the position of the person who has experienced their god, that's how things are.  They can never renounce their god, no matter what we say - and they can quite honestly refute any "I was once a believer" argument with "no, you were not - you couldn't have been, else you'd never have chosen to forsake the salvation".

Your position might not make the True Christian position valid.  But it lends it a hell of a lot of support.

I know that doesn't make your position wrong.  But perhaps it makes it a position that we would collectively do better to stand against?

- - - - -

I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.
Does that surprise you?  That someone who is so nervous about openly expressing an opinion on the interweb would succumb to threats from Yahweh?  I agree it supports your point, sure - I'd be surprised if it didn't happen - but so what?  I guess the meek really will inherit the earth.....
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 11, 2012, 06:57:07 AM
Thanks for the reply - I'll be writing up a response this morning because you raise some good points that are important.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Zankuu on June 11, 2012, 08:48:48 AM
Wow, HAL really rustled some feathers with this thread.

To answer the OP: I would want to give Yahweh the middle finger and regret it for eternity.

But would I? It really is tough to answer, HAL. We're talking about bowing to the most monstrous being in existence versus the unimaginable horror of eternal torture crafted by an immortal. If Yahweh existed he would wield the power to break any mammal's frail body and mind. It's ridiculous to suggest his hell couldn't. Whatever we could imagine his torture would be like- it would be unimaginably worse. Prometheus having his intestines ripped out by birds, regrown, and ripped out again each day? Yahweh would make you beg for that type of lesser punishment.

Any person that claims they could handle it is blinded by selfrighteous thoughts of nobility and virtue. But I get why they'd want to say they could. Because what kind of person wouldn't stand up to an unjust tyrant? A coward. And nobody wants to be a coward. But we aren't talking about being a hero and dying for what is right or just. If Yahweh were to just kill me on the spot, I'd damn well take that stand and throw that middle finger at him. But that isn't what he would do. He would break me and anyone else within fractions of a second. And if you don't think you would break you haven't invested much thought into eternal torture. Yahweh could implant the most intense and emotional personal connections in your mind. He could make you feel the most agonizingly passionate love for the billions of people you shared this planet with, only to have them all disgustingly executed in your mind over, and over, and over again. All the while ripping your body to shreds. And this is for eternity. Can anyone sincerely say they can handle that?

I admit I couldn't.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 11, 2012, 12:01:03 PM
Can anyone sincerely say they can handle that?

I admit I couldn't.

I don't think anyone who opposed HAL's position in the OP made the claim that they could handle it. The question wasn't could you handle it, or would you eventually concede and worship. The question is about your initial decision making. That is where some of us feel we would answer differently.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 11, 2012, 12:02:24 PM
On the other hand, if heaven is a steady constant, never changing, as we suppose it would be because "god's" plan will be complete,  there would be no change to gage time with on suffering. A second and a billion years would be indistinguishable without a changing environment. As your mind would be finished, all thoughts complete, how would you think about the pain?

That's an excellent question. I wish I knew the answer.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 11, 2012, 03:23:36 PM
I would worship rather than burn forever in hell. :o

I would worship rather than cause anyone on the planet to burn forever hell. Even conservatives don't deserve to burn forever in hell. Isn't that the main selling point of Christianity-- convincing people to think they will burn forever if they don't worship?

What is amusing in a bad way, is how so many religious people decide not to wait for god and hell, instead torturing their fellow humans right here on earth for not worshipping the right way.

Can you people just put down the stones, thumbscrews, pitchforks and torches? Hold your butts and wait for god to take care of those unbelievers. &)

Re: Nam
Sorry to hear about the sh!t that evil beeyatch did to you and other kids. I was abused, too. It has taken years of therapy for me to get rid of the killing rage. I have a high tolerance for pain as well. And I would never think that I could hold out if someone was setting me on fire over and over again. I would fold even faster if they threatened to do it to my daughter.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: OnlyClarity on June 11, 2012, 03:46:06 PM
I would like to insert my two cents about this hypothetical since I have read the thread in its entirety and considered all points.

HAL, many forum members, including yourself, are speculating on something you have no experience with (making a choice in the face of a god), and then instantaneously judging us for speculating too.  The whole hypothetical requires one to speculate, because none of us can be absolutely sure what we'd do.  It is moot to claim that we have no experience in standing up to eternal torture, because likewise, you have no experience in worshiping Biblegod face to face or making any choices relating to this hypothetical scenario (and we both know none of us ever will (thank Go...I mean FSM ))  The question was never if you could survive your choice, it was simply asking what choice you'd make now if you had to punch your ballot yes or no today - at least that's how I interpreted the original hypothetical question.

When you say with 100% certainty what you would do in this situation and that you are 100% certain that all sane people would do the same, it is silly.  The only people I ever hear who preach that they are 100% certain of something are usually religious people who tell me they know without a doubt that God is real...hmm.  Please don't tell me you have closed your mind to all possibility other than what you perceive to be the case.  As a free thinker, I would hope you will at least uphold the possibility that some of us, including myself, want to punch the ballot no for worship. 

Would we break under the pressure and second guess our decision...more than likely yes.  But it is my strong opinion that I wouldn't regret it due to feeling I was wrong to stand for my moral/ethical conviction, I would only regret it because there is absolutely no positive outcome I could have chosen given the power we have as humans.  Part of the human complex you forget is that yes we are frail, and we do make poor decisions...perhaps like burning in eternal torment because we are too proud to let our values falter when contested.  Call me insane, call me unbelievable, or call me an "internet tough guy"..but I assure you that if you gave me a ballot right this second, I'd punch no to worshiping that hideous creature we know as Biblegod. 

The reason I disagree with your opinion is simple. Since none of us have any experience with this exact scenario (because it is impossible for us to have experience with it), we are all going to have to make our choice based on our current beliefs and moral/ethical mindset.  I know my current mind tells me that I would rather burn for eternity than to worship the monster portrayed in the Christian bible.  HAL, I feel that many of you guys are getting caught up on the fact that we'd break eventually.  Of course we would eventually break and want the torture to stop, but when it comes to having an option to take a stand when push comes to shove, your words come off like you would be proud to drop all your convictions in an instant to get out of the punishment.  I may have the wrong vibe, and correct me if you wouldn't be proud to do so, but what good are your moral or ethical perspectives to us if you admit that you are unwilling to stand in the most dire scenario?  I'd rather be falsely identified as coming off like an "internet tough guy" than coming off the way I've felt you have when admitting you'd drop your values to avoid torture and then implying that everyone who wouldn't insane or unbelievable.  Is it so unbelievable that we would like to take a stand for something?  As little faith as I have in our kind HAL, damn, you have gone one step further.  What is the point in having any opinions in this life if you will retract them under bullying or contest?

I feel that some of us want to say we'd at least try to defend our morality even if it is futile against an all-powerful being.  Futile not because it is pointless to stand for convictions, but because when you look at both options, one doesn't involve giving in right away.  Hell, maybe after 5, 10, 15 minutes he will ask again if you will worship him and we'd cave in then.  How about a round of opinions from everyone on that scenario adjustment.  I am truly eager to hear your thoughts on all of this.  Again, thank GAWD this is all hypothetical because quite frankly, it is disgusting to think about all together.

-Clarity
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 11, 2012, 04:01:27 PM
Clarity - I'm still writing up a response to Anfauglir. I'll respond to you as soon as I can, but you're not going to like what you read.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: OnlyClarity on June 11, 2012, 04:05:53 PM
Interesting. I'll be waiting.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 11, 2012, 04:53:19 PM
I think this hypothetical question is bringing up some even deeper issues that concern this forum's purpose and the real problem of why people believe in gods. I think it's worth stating again that I do not believe in gods of any kind and I don't see good evidence for them. You bring up a lot of good points that we need to talk about.

You are assuming that I've not given this any thought at all.  I have.  The question has been on my mind damn-near constantly since it was first posed. And I hope that I would still have the strength of conviction to deny the creature that I firmly believe is a monster, no matter what happens to me.  Because if I don't, then what is the point?

I thank you for giving it a lot of thought - so have I over the years. Because someone brought it up the other day I wanted to get it out in the open. The main problem I think is that you are using human goals and human struggles against human "evil" - dictators/mass murderers/bullies/fill in the blank ______ as a comparison to a hypothetical struggle (which you couldn't win) against this deity we call Biblegod. Convictions and struggles against human baddies can have lasting consequences. Some of them are in no order of importance -

1. Passing examples of strength to others in the struggle
2. Passing along values to younger generations
3. Receiving medals
4. Defeating the bad entity
5. Taking torture or imprisonment long enough to survive
etc ...
 
None of those items serve any purpose in the hypothetical. There is no point in denying Biblegod because it doesn't compare to human struggles. To put it frankly,

A. Nobody else will give a shit if you bravely deny it
B. Given A, you'll wonder what the point of denying is also - who are you setting an example for?
C. Given A & B, plus your own humanity, you will opt out of eternal torture.

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It would mean that I would fall down in front of the thing I regard as most wrong, most evil, most despicable there could be.  You may feel that that is a position that can be taken easily - I don't.  Standing for what I think is right is important to me - though I DO have worries over whether I would, at time of crunch, have the strength to go through with it.  But to say, right here and now, "yeah, I'll do whatever to save myself?"  No, that I won't do - not least because it would be the start of the slippery path to justification that might be the tipping point to my caving in.

It's a tough situation isn't it, if it was reality? You say you struggle with it now - just wait till the reality of it kicks in (if it were true). Unlike human struggles you are going to lose this one - no chance of winning. It's not a dictator that can be defeated, it's not a bully that can be kicked in the balls, it's not a force that can be changed. Your tiny little stand against it would be as meaningless as a speck of dust in the universe, and you won't take the chance of eternal torture to make a meaningless statement, whereas in human struggles you might risk death to make a meaningful statement for posterity. No offense, but I don't know if you are the hero type or not. You might not even take these bold stands even against a human baddie. I'm not claiming I could either.

You want a really honest answer? I put off cleaning my shower for a long time. Uh, let's just say it was in really bad shape. I spent nearly 2 hours yesterday cleaning it - yes 2 hours, it was nasty, a suck task, and a pain in the ass. If Hell was cleaning that shower over and over for eternity - I would choose worshipping Biblegod. Forget about eternal pain. That's a really honest answer. Forget about red hot cigars, staples, and all other manner of torture, that shower torture would do it for me. I don't know what that makes me, probably a lame, weak, unconvicted human in your eyes, but that's an honest answer.

It's pointless to choose eternal torture for no good reason. That's why religion wins, the threat of nasty consequences - they've thought of everything. Once that's in the minds of the theists it's all over with. The difference between them and us is they accept it with poor evidence, whereas in the hypothetical it's somehow proven that Biblegod exists. That's the difference. It's foolish to believe in something that has poor evidence. It's not foolish to accept valid proof that a thing exists and act on that proof taking into account that you are checkmated - game over - do not insert another quarter in the slot, which is what happens in the hypothetical.

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You claim that you know me.

I only claim that, as some others have eloquently stated, I know that you are human and I know your own humanity will completely take over at the point that the hypothetical became true. I don't know you as far as what you will eat for dinner today, what you regard as the best beer, or what type of flat screen TV you prefer. There are many things about you I can not predict because they are trivial states of mind - trivial choices. Mistakes or lapses of judgment choosing your next toaster oven are no big deal and I can't predict what you would do choosing one. Encountering/choosing those things are not cases of your own humanity overpowering a frail human mind. This case is, and I think by now you are starting to doubt what you would do. Nothing wrong with that.

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Then you will also know how I would feel to accept that my personal safety means more to me than standing up for what is right.

But what is "right"? Why is your opinion "right" anyway - because you say so? Maybe you were wrong all along? There's lots of human laws I don't like but I obey them because it's the right thing to do. If you don't like the law have it changed. In the hypothetical, if it were true, what the law is is what Biblegod says it is - He's the law giver and you can't have it changed. Not because it's objective either, it's because He says so and he'll bust your balls otherwise. If he says it's right to worship Him then it's right, it's the law, and you have to obey the law. If he says stone to death so-and-so because they stepped on a holy mud brick then that's what's right. Don't you obey the law Anfauglir? You say you stand up for what is "right", well, what Bible god says is the law, is what's right - period, so I guess you'll be standing up for Biblegod.

Besides, your standing up for what you claim is "right" has no chance of succeeding or accomplishing anything in any way. Many people have stood for rights that were against current human law because they wanted the laws changed. What's the worst that would happen to them? They get put in jail, some died and that was that. You can't get Biblegod's law changed so there's no point. Not just that, if you do try it, you'll get your balls busted and get eternally tortured and can't die. So you won't try something that can't succeed and will send you to eternal torment and which is not "right" by definition of the law giver and is for all intents and purposes pointless. So to talk like HAL - Your stand would be, by any practical definition of the terms, foolish and incapable of success.

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The best people in the wocrld [sic], to me, are those who risk themselves for their convictions.  Your point - ultimately - is that every person in the world will ultimately choose self over conviction.  And if that's what is going to happen, then what IS the point?

If the hypothetical were true? There would be no point Anfauglir. I know you really, really, desperately, gosh-darn-it want there to be a point to having convictions in the face of Biblegod, but unfortunately, there wouldn't be a point. The convictions you held were for another world, another time, a time before Biblegod was proven to exist. That's part of the hypothetical's consequences - the "point" is that Biblegod is in charge, and the point is he set it all up. You can't change any of it, you can't die for your beliefs, you can't get a medal, you can't pass along your convictions to others, because you know how it would go down? You'll be getting tortured and nobody will give a rat's ass.

It'll go like this -

Anfauglir - "C'mon everybody! Stay with your convictions and join me in Hell! Don't be scared of eternal torture! Nam's with me and he says it can't be much worse than having a burning cigar touched to your skin or even a staple gun wound!"

Everybody else - "Fuck that Anfauglir! Fuck that! Are you fucking insane! This isn't some debate on the WWGHA forum - this shit is REAL now! This is not a game! There's no point to resisting and suffering eternal torture! Nobody cares about your convictions anymore so don't be a fool! We were all wrong! See ya wouldn't want to be ya! Zankuu, how high is the altar we're building for Biblegod supposed to be? Get the plans, and 12 Monkeys, take charge of burning some pleasing aromas, Ricky - please slaughter a lamb". I'll try to make sure we're not pissing off the Big Guy.

Anfauglir to himself - "The real situation really sucks ..."

Anfauglir to Nam - "Hey man - can you do me a real quick cigar burn before I commit? I just want a small taste of what's coming to make sure ..."

Nam - "Dude it really does hurt, and you know how I am on forums, I talk big, but I'm outta here to help build the altar!"

Anfauglir to himself - "Why I am going to do this again ..."

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If that's the final result, then all the "fun" we have hear is pointless - whistling past the graveyard, "I don't believe in spooks, I don't , I don't , I DON'T" - and to say that, when push comes to shove we would essentially recant on everything we ever bother saying here, then.....well, agree your point, and in my opinion it makes ALL our posturings here pointless and rather childish.

You are right, if the hypothetical was true. But it's only a hypothetical that we don't believe now. It's just a thought experiment - an apparently nasty little thought experiment from the looks of it. I'm quite glad that I am causing people to think about this .But what you are saying is a problem too Anfauglir. What you are implying is, if we do not believe in ghosts, goblins, angels, gods, devils, etc. now, but they were proven to be true later, that you wouldn't want to accept the reality of it. You wouldn't want to "recant on everything we ever bother saying here". Isn't that telling the readers that we can't accept what we have not believed all our lives if proven false? Isn't that just as bad as what theists do here all the time? Well, it is.

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I further believe that even by pushing this point it makes this website pointless.  The committed Christians that come here KNOW that god exists.  So if you are correct, there is no way at all that they will ever renounce their god because of our sophistry and clever arguments that show how evil god really is.  Even if on some level they think we may be right, THEIR choice (of worship or burn) IS already being made.  Its not a hypothetical maybe some years down the line - its NOW, and always.  So not one person who knows Christ will have their position swayed by this website.

Then maybe it is pointless. Either it has a worthwhile purpose or it doesn't, and you might be entirely right. Maybe we should all agree and I can write the owner and convince him to shutter the place. If they KNOW Biblegod exists, then why are we here, I've considered that for a few years. How many people have deconverted because of this place? You see, the hypothetical really brings to the forefront the hold that this religion has on them. I believe it's the main thing that holds them. They think - What if this god is real? What if Hell is real? What if I make a mistake and get sent to eternal torture because you fucking atheist bastards tricked me? What if ... Shit man, you atheists make some good points but ... I'll just play it safe just in case - no harm really. Logging off now ...

You see, their humanity is already at work and it's powerful medicine. The designers of this religion were damn good at their craft. Our humanity isn't at work now, for us, because we do not believe. But it will be the most important thing to you if the hypothetical were to become true, I can 100% assure you of this.

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It also gives great support to the view that anyone who becomes an atheist was never truly a Christian.  Someone who is a Christian KNOWS god exists - and so, again, they make that choice on a daily basis.  You've stressed that there is only one choice to make in that position - continued belief and worship - so how could one lose belief in that position, knowing that to do so means they are making the "torture" choice?

They won't lose belief, because in effect the hypothetical (what we consider hypothetical) is real for them. You've said what the problem is Anfauglir - what we consider hypothetical is not hypothetical for them. It all goes back to what is considered good evidence and what they are willing to "risk" to accept that there is no good evidence. To them, it's not a good bargain. It's like joining in the office lottery like I used to do. I didn't think there was a good chance we'd win, but fuck it - I sure didn't want to think of me being the one who was the single guy who decided to opt out if they won. It was only $1 for peace of mind, and we do know there are winners in the lottery.

So it goes. They'd just as soon not take the risk of Hell and go about their merry way. They say their Hail Mary's and join in the religious lottery at little real risk if they are wrong (I know, Pascal's wager but that's the way they see it anyway). I foresee no risk now because I have no good evidence. The point is, are we to be hypocrites in the face of proof of Biblegod that we would still be so blustery in the face of Hell. I don't think so.

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From the position of the person who has experienced their god, that's how things are.  They can never renounce their god, no matter what we say - and they can quite honestly refute any "I was once a believer" argument with "no, you were not - you couldn't have been, else you'd never have chosen to forsake the salvation".

Yep. I have nothing to add to that. We've seen that for years and I expect it won't change.

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Your position might not make the True Christian position valid.  But it lends it a hell of a lot of support. I know that doesn't make your position wrong.  But perhaps it makes it a position that we would collectively do better to stand against?

Well it's too bad that discussing hypotheticals does that Anfauglir. If admitting I'd worship Biblegod using a given hypothetical causes theists to be more secure in their belief, then we really are up against a tough mind virus - one that looks like it can't be defeated. Or are you saying something like Mitt Romney said when talking about economy/distribution of wealth "You know I think it's fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms."?

I even got PM from members that don't want to post in the thread agreeing with me.

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Does that surprise you?  That someone who is so nervous about openly expressing an opinion on the interweb would succumb to threats from Yahweh?  I agree it supports your point, sure - I'd be surprised if it didn't happen - but so what?  I guess the meek really will inherit the earth.....

I don't think it's succumbing to threats from Yahweh, they just don't want to be seen as somehow weak or not firm enough as an atheist among their peers here. I really don't know. It doesn't bother me to talk about it because I don't care what people think about me having said all this. It's important to talk about.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: OnlyClarity on June 11, 2012, 06:13:41 PM

None of those items serve any purpose in the hypothetical. There is no point in denying Biblegod because it doesn't compare to human struggles. To put it frankly,

A. Nobody else will give a shit if you bravely deny it
B. Given A, you'll wonder what the point of denying is also - who are you setting an example for?
C. Given A & B, plus your own humanity, you will opt out of eternal torture.

Point A: So effectively you are implying that the reason most people have their beliefs/values is because somebody out there gives a shit?  Not at all.  I hold mine assuming nobody gives a shit, and it doesn't bother me if they do. 

Point B: I don't need to set an example for anyone.  I just need to have enough conviction to value my beliefs enough to stand by them.  Can we agree that just because GAWD says its the law/the right thing that many of us might still disagree and think he's wrong?

Point C:  You may out HAL, and that's completely okay.  Maybe you need to feel like somebody gives a shit before you take actions on anything; to each his own.  Maybe you feel the need to set an example for someone before you take action; to each his own.  I think I speak for all of us who disagree with you here when I say this: To us, that doesn't matter.  Yeah we are humans, yeah we would likely falter after making the choice.  But the conscious act of making the choice to us is worth it, regardless who gives a shit, and regardless who takes it as an example.

It's a tough situation isn't it, if it was reality? You say you struggle with it now - just wait till the reality of it kicks in (if it were true). Unlike human struggles you are going to lose this one - no chance of winning. It's not a dictator that can be defeated, it's not a bully that can be kicked in the balls, it's not a force that can be changed. Your tiny little stand against it would be as meaningless as a speck of dust in the universe, and you won't take the chance of eternal torture to make a meaningless statement, whereas in human struggles you might risk death to make a meaningful statement for posterity. No offense, but I don't know if you are the hero type or not. You might not even take these bold stands even against a human baddie. I'm not claiming I could either.

Bold mine.  It may be meaningless in your eyes, and it may be as equally meaningless in others eyes.  Just because you find something meaningless does not make it meaningless to the one who takes the action.  We do not and cannot all have the same perspective as you HAL.  We will have to agree to disagree about what meaning such an action has.

You want a really honest answer? I put off cleaning my shower for a long time. Uh, let's just say it was in really bad shape. I spent nearly 2 hours yesterday cleaning it - yes 2 hours, it was nasty, a suck task, and a pain in the ass. If Hell was cleaning that shower over and over for eternity - I would choose worshipping Biblegod. Forget about eternal pain. That's a really honest answer. Forget about red hot cigars, staples, and all other manner of torture, that shower torture would do it for me. I don't know what that makes me, probably a lame, weak, unconvicted human in your eyes, but that's an honest answer.

Bold mine.  You're completely right HAL, it is an honest answer...for yourself.  Imposing your perspective on the entire hypothetical to all human beings just doesn't make it so.  You can say all you want that we are dishonest, but I don't care to debate where you have the experience of knowing every human's reaction to every possible stimuli.  I think we both know you have no such experience, and thus, we simply want you to fathom that some of us may choose differently than yourself.  Regret after the fact/breaking down/giving in all highly likely possibilities (because we have no experience taking such punishment), but that aside, the choice for me has been made, I punched my ballot.  Call me a quack for thinking its still worth it to stand for what I perceive as justice - as pointless as you may think it is.  I'm not here to impress any of you, I'm here to have meaningful discussions to expand my worldview.

It's pointless to choose eternal torture for no good reason. That's why religion wins, the threat of nasty consequences - they've thought of everything. Once that's in the minds of the theists it's all over with. The difference between them and us is they accept it with poor evidence, whereas in the hypothetical it's somehow proven that Biblegod exists. That's the difference. It's foolish to believe in something that has poor evidence. It's not foolish to accept valid proof that a thing exists and act on that proof taking into account that you are checkmated - game over - do not insert another quarter in the slot, which is what happens in the hypothetical.

Again, what is pointless to you is not necessarily pointless to us. 

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Then you will also know how I would feel to accept that my personal safety means more to me than standing up for what is right.

But what is "right"? Why is your opinion "right" anyway - because you say so? Maybe you were wrong all along? There's lots of human laws I don't like but I obey them because it's the right thing to do. If you don't like the law have it changed. In the hypothetical, if it were true, what the law is is what Biblegod says it is - He's the law giver and you can't have it changed. Not because it's objective either, it's because He says so and he'll bust your balls otherwise. If he says it's right to worship Him then it's right, it's the law, and you have to obey the law. If he says stone to death so-and-so because they stepped on a holy mud brick then that's what's right. Don't you obey the law Anfauglir? You say you stand up for what is "right", well, what Bible god says is the law, is what's right - period, so I guess you'll be standing up for Biblegod.

We have God in the Bible changing his mind on shit all the time.  It's pretty myself that if he is shown to exist 100%, he is simply flawed by any capacity of the word we understand and his laws are not worth granting any attention to.  He doesn't even know what he wants half the time.  Sure he will have the big stick and can beat us over the head into submission, but no matter what, I would like to give it a shot at least to make a stand regardless the outcome.  It is simply the one scenario where it makes more sense to me to go against it, despite him saying it is "right" to obey his laws. 

Besides, your standing up for what you claim is "right" has no chance of succeeding or accomplishing anything in any way. Many people have stood for rights that were against current human law because they wanted the laws changed. What's the worst that would happen to them? They get put in jail, some died and that was that. You can't get Biblegod's law changed so there's no point. Not just that, if you do try it, you'll get your balls busted and get eternally tortured and can't die. So you won't try something that can't succeed and will send you to eternal torment and which is not "right" by definition of the law giver and is for all intents and purposes pointless. So to talk like HAL - Your stand would be, by any practical definition of the terms, foolish and incapable of success.

It doesn't have to succeed or accomplish anything for me to feel it was worth a shot.  Both options will be horrible in their own respects, but I can't give in to that so easily.  I'd like to make him force me first.  Foolish, arguably so, but worth it to me.

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The best people in the wocrld [sic], to me, are those who risk themselves for their convictions.  Your point - ultimately - is that every person in the world will ultimately choose self over conviction.  And if that's what is going to happen, then what IS the point?

If the hypothetical were true? There would be no point Anfauglir. I know you really, really, desperately, gosh-darn-it want there to be a point to having convictions in the face of Biblegod, but unfortunately, there wouldn't be a point. The convictions you held were for another world, another time, a time before Biblegod was proven to exist. That's part of the hypothetical's consequences - the "point" is that Biblegod is in charge, and the point is he set it all up. You can't change any of it, you can't die for your beliefs, you can't get a medal, you can't pass along your convictions to others, because you know how it would go down? You'll be getting tortured and nobody will give a rat's ass.

It'll go like this -

Anfauglir - "C'mon everybody! Stay with your convictions and join me in Hell! Don't be scared of eternal torture! Nam's with me and he says it can't be much worse than having a burning cigar touched to your skin or even a staple gun wound!"

Everybody else - "Fuck that Anfauglir! Fuck that! Are you fucking insane! This isn't some debate on the WWGHA forum - this shit is REAL now! This is not a game! There's no point to resisting and suffering eternal torture! Nobody cares about your convictions anymore so don't be a fool! We were all wrong! See ya wouldn't want to be ya! Zankuu, how high is the altar we're building for Biblegod supposed to be? Get the plans, and 12 Monkeys, take charge of burning some pleasing aromas, Ricky - please slaughter a lamb". I'll try to make sure we're not pissing off the Big Guy.

Anfauglir to himself - "The real situation really sucks ..."

Anfauglir to Nam - "Hey man - can you do me a real quick cigar burn before I commit? I just want a small taste of what's coming to make sure ..."

Nam - "Dude it really does hurt, and you know how I am on forums, I talk big, but I'm outta here to help build the altar!"

Anfauglir to himself - "Why I am going to do this again ..."

Great dialogue and I can admittedly smile at it.  As sure as you are that it is pointless to try, I am equally as sure that I think it is.  It is just a difference of our opinion HAL.  Do you want to admit that it is possible that some of us have different opinions that are just as valid to us as yours are to yourself?  Again, I don't give half a shit if you think its crazy, but please admit you aren't able to guarantee the actions of others.  I remember you said that we would have to be insane in some fashion to act in this way, but that's fine by me.  I'd give it a shot for my own conviction - pointless in your eyes or not.

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If that's the final result, then all the "fun" we have hear is pointless - whistling past the graveyard, "I don't believe in spooks, I don't , I don't , I DON'T" - and to say that, when push comes to shove we would essentially recant on everything we ever bother saying here, then.....well, agree your point, and in my opinion it makes ALL our posturings here pointless and rather childish.

You are right, if the hypothetical was true. But it's only a hypothetical that we don't believe now. It's just a thought experiment - an apparently nasty little thought experiment from the looks of it. I'm quite glad that I am causing people to think about this .But what you are saying is a problem too Anfauglir. What you are implying is, if we do not believe in ghosts, goblins, angels, gods, devils, etc. now, but they were proven to be true later, that you wouldn't want to accept the reality of it. You wouldn't want to "recant on everything we ever bother saying here". Isn't that telling the readers that we can't accept what we have not believed all our lives if proven false? Isn't that just as bad as what theists do here all the time? Well, it is.

Well, maybe it is HAL.  But you committed a similar theist action when you claimed that you were 100% certain that we wouldn't choose torture.  So, we are both guilty of a theist-like action.  I just think ours makes more sense to stand for is all.

You see, their humanity is already at work and it's powerful medicine. The designers of this religion were damn good at their craft. Our humanity isn't at work now, for us, because we do not believe. But it will be the most important thing to you if the hypothetical were to become true, I can 100% assure you of this.

Hallelujah HAL.  I can't agree with this more.  My opinion is that my humanity will be the most important thing to me at that moment.  It is so important to me, that I will make the unbelievable, pointless, and possibly insane action (in your eyes) of standing up for my right to disagree. 

So it goes. They'd just as soon not take the risk of Hell and go about their merry way. They say their Hail Mary's and join in the religious lottery at little real risk if they are wrong (I know, Pascal's wager but that's the way they see it anyway). I foresee no risk now because I have no good evidence. The point is, are we to be hypocrites in the face of proof of Biblegod that we would still be so blustery in the face of Hell. I don't think so.

Bold mine.  Good question, and I think that my answer personally would be this:

Despite the idea that he's the lawmaker and the one with the big stick, I wouldn't deny that he exists if it were proven 100% true.  Does it follow logically that I have to agree with everything he says/does because he was proven to exist?  I guess I don't think so, but again, that's open to interpretation.  I'd rather be a hypocrite to stand for my conviction that God is evil than to be a hypocrite and drop my values and beliefs in the face of opposition.  To me, that is far worse.


I'm sincerely glad we have all taken a part in this discussion.  It has been extremely thought-provoking and interesting as the thought-experiment it was.  I am eager to hear all points of view in reply.  HAL, go ahead and respond to my original post first, then to this.  I just wrote what I had to because it was fresh.  Sorry Anfauglir if you feel like I hijacked the response - thats was not my intent and I still hope you rebuttal as well. Cheers all.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 11, 2012, 06:32:14 PM
Wouldn't it be a real bitch if in the hypothetical god only wanted people with a "back bone"[1] to get in to heaven? Just saying...  &)

Seriously though, this has been a curious conversation. I fully understand how both decisions could be made. I'd like to think I'd have balls of steel and burn in hell forever. I know myself and if I caved to God I would hate myself for all eternity. I'm pretty sure my own self loathing would make heaven a pretty miserable place. As only I know how terrible I'm capable of treating myself when I fail to meet my own expectations. The truth of the matter is I'd hate either decision and have no way of knowing which one I would hate more. So, when standing at the cross road I have no choice but make myself feel good in that one small moment of existence. Because to me that one moment matters. It's when my own humanity meant enough to me to fight for.

I know personal experiences have been entirely discredited in this thread. But I was a victim of abuse as a child and as an adult. It took a long time for me to finally stand up to my abusers and earn back my self respect. The moment I give that away is the moment I don't really give a shit about myself enough to care whether or not I'm tortured. And not because I know there is an end IRL. The end IRL is ceasing to exist; that to me is far more terrifying than hell. Maybe I have a superiority complex and can't get over my own minuscule existence. Maybe I'm wrong for wanting to hold on to the ounce I've pride I've finally developed. But I don't want to give that away to anyone, let alone god. 
 1. Maybe this is the test where only the internet tough guys are worthy enough to sit by god in his thrown. And the followers get to serve them grapes and 24 hour long foot massages.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 11, 2012, 06:47:18 PM
I would worship rather than burn forever in hell. :o

I would worship rather than cause anyone on the planet to burn forever hell. Even conservatives don't deserve to burn forever in hell. Isn't that the main selling point of Christianity-- convincing people to think they will burn forever if they don't worship?

What is amusing in a bad way, is how so many religious people decide not to wait for god and hell, instead torturing their fellow humans right here on earth for not worshipping the right way.

Can you people just put down the stones, thumbscrews, pitchforks and torches? Hold your butts and wait for god to take care of those unbelievers. &)

Re: Nam
Sorry to hear about the sh!t that evil beeyatch did to you and other kids. I was abused, too. It has taken years of therapy for me to get rid of the killing rage. I have a high tolerance for pain as well. And I would never think that I could hold out if someone was setting me on fire over and over again. I would fold even faster if they threatened to do it to my daughter.

The hypothetical is a choice if based on reality--the other was forced on me, and I had no choice.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 11, 2012, 07:16:57 PM
Most of what I'd say I've already said in the thread, so I'm going to cut to the chase. I told you you would not like what you are going to hear, but I have to say it forcefully because people too easily slip into hero mode behind the keyboard. I apologize in advance ...

I know my current mind tells me that I would rather burn for eternity than to worship the monster portrayed in the Christian bible.

Your "current mind" tells you ...? That's bullshit clarity. You know why? Because your "current mind", your little frail  human "current mind" would be crushed upon the hypothetical becoming true. Your "current mind" used to microwave ovens, hot showers, and flat screen TVs will be so fucked up by this coming true, so backed into a corner, that you'll be a mere ghost of your old self. It sounds really, really grand and I'm sure your family would be proud of you saying it, but it's a farce that you would take that stand. No sane person is going to consider eternal torture in the face of the reality of the situation. You're not going to take that chance - no fucking way, no fucking how. It amazes me that the typing out of these grand statements keeps occurring! It's just way too easy to make grandiose heroic statements I guess, but please save them for your next fiction novel. They aren't believable in the least.

I just consider what you've written pure heroic novel writing. It's totally unbelievable, and if you'll review the thread you will have noticed that I'm not alone in this view. Who the Hell are you anyway - some hardened war hero? Some Chinese monk that has spent their entire life meditating on mind and body control? Some trained torture-exhibitionist? I might give you some credit if you were (you'd still cave) but really, your blustery mini novel of how you can mightily stand up to a real god is laughable at the minimum. I can give you a thousand scenarios where you'd abandon your heroic ideals just on Earth right now, forget the hypothetical scenario. I could mind-fuck you over so easily and efficiently with Earthly methods that you'd be a vegetable in no time but I wouldn't have to touch you. If I was evil enough and if it was legal - you'd worship a bullfrog and I could make you do it without even touching you, because when you saw me coming at you with what I have in mind (I'll keep it off the page for now) you'd be a screaming, bauling sack of goo begging me to stop before I even started, and yet you have the gall to write what you have? That you could choose eternal torture from a deity when you'd cave in no time without even being touched by my device? Give me a fucking break.

I am just amazed at the ease at which people can blow off the consequences and say "Oh fuck Biblegod - I'm on the highway to Hell!".

I'm glad I started this thread now for more than just the OP, these blustery hero posts are as entertaining as the discussion of the real problem!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: OnlyClarity on June 11, 2012, 08:03:04 PM
No offense here HAL, but you are being pretty stuck up and snobby about this whole ordeal.  It's good to know that you are suddenly an expert of all human reactions to hypothetical scenarios that none of us could possibly know a thing about.  You imply that you are certain that you know exactly how my mind (and other minds) will function in every possible hypothetical scenario somehow.  Damn HAL, tell me where you got the military or zen training to perform such a feat, because I'm gonna call bullshit on your ability to do so. I never said I'd outlast eternal torture by the way.  You are the one making the most grandiose claim in my opinion.

There's no point in being childish about this as I am okay with your opinion being different than mine.  The difference between you and I is that I'm not saying I know for sure how you would react in a hypothetical situation that we can do nothing but speculate on.  I wish you the best and I hope you understand where we are coming from.  You obviously have overlooked the multiple places in my posts where I said I could care less if my family is impressed or even if you are impressed by what I say on an online forum, or in person on the street.  You can peg me however you'd like, but it only makes an ass out of you.  I'd like to think you are a good person who is as intellectually honest as you claim you are, but when you make your grandiose claim that you can predict every human being's reaction to astronomically wild hypothetical situations, you come across more childish than I do sound when I say I'd rather burn than give in right away.  Again, we would likely falter over time, but let the big man with the stick have to break me down rather than myself doing it for him ahead of time. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 11, 2012, 09:00:32 PM
No offense here HAL, but you are being pretty stuck up and snobby about this whole ordeal.  It's good to know that you are suddenly an expert of all human reactions to hypothetical scenarios that none of us could possibly know a thing about

No, I'm being correct.

I am not an expert in all human reactions. But it's obvious by historical records how humans react to torture, and that's by other humans. Most of the problem with people who say they could choose eternal torture is that they aren't considering the consequences honestly. It's simply too easy to type out heroic retorts on the internet. It's a major problem with this type of hypothetical. People will type out all manner of ridiculous crazy heroic stances, but in reality, they will be just like everybody else - scared shitless and get out of pain any way possible.

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You imply that you are certain that you know exactly how my mind (and other minds) will function in every possible hypothetical scenario somehow.

Nope, I never said anything like that. I say faced with eternal torture or worshipping you will not choose eternal torture unless you are insane. I've already explained why.

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Damn HAL, tell me where you got the military or zen training to perform such a feat, because I'm gonna call bullshit on your ability to do so. I never said I'd outlast eternal torture by the way.  You are the one making the most grandiose claim in my opinion.
 

No, quite the contrary. The grandiose claims are by you and others who think they are super-human resistors of torture, so much so that you would ignore all the nasty scenarios you could easily imagine and brazenly just take a chance in front of a real deity and opt for torture. It's utter bullshit. And now you keep using terms like "I can't outlast it ...". Wake up to the scenario clarity - you can't stop it, so at the moment you get to the point where you "can't outlast it" - probably after about 5 seconds - oops.

So basically you just told me that you are smart enough to mentally play out all the possibilities and realize you won't take a chance on outlasting it before making the choice, and you will then choose to not experience it.

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I'd like to think you are a good person who is as intellectually honest as you claim you are,

I am intellectually honest - that's why I admitted what I'd do, so have other members. Anyone who says they would choose it is not being honest with their own humanity. If me saying this makes you mad so be it. It's the truth. This wild touting of "Bring on the torture!" is just laughable.

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but when you make your grandiose claim that you can predict every human being's reaction to astronomically wild hypothetical situations,

I can't do that at all. Only for a few situations can I do that.

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you come across more childish than I do sound when I say I'd rather burn than give in right away.

There you go again - giving yourself an out where there is none. See, that's why you are being so brazen - you think there's an out "I'd rather burn than give in right away." There is no giving in to get out of it at any point clarity. I wonder how many people are confused by this? Any rational person would not choose an eternal torture that they know they can't get out of. Well, why do you think it's called eternal torture in the first place?

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Again, we would likely falter over time, but let the big man with the stick have to break me down rather than myself doing it for him ahead of time.

Again you have the mental capacity to realize that you will falter, yet you brazenly claim you'll go ahead and go for it. You aren't being rational about the hypothetical problem. Who said if you break over time you get out of it? See, you are injecting possible ways out that were never in the problem. Of course you can easily say - oh well give it to me and I'll cry Uncle at the appropriate time.

clarity (after 5 seconds) - Ouuuuuuuch! Ouch ouch oooouch! OK I give in I can't take it! AHHHHHHHHH! Why isn't the pain stopping! What? I have to take this forever! I thought there was an out! I didn't give in right away but now I do!

Biblegod - "Should have paid attention to HAL son, the deal was worship me or eternal torture. Bye bye."

You're stuck forever. Any human not insane that realizes this will not choose eternal torture. But, please make my day and let's hear from other internet heroes, I'm certainly entertained by your mental heroism!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: OnlyClarity on June 11, 2012, 10:15:23 PM
Well to be quite honest, I don't know what to say. You are just correct man, end of story.  Nobody does anything if there's a chance of consequences I guess...

Guys if HAL tells you he will save you if you are about to fall off a cliff, you better not trust him...'cause what if he falls off too and has to go through the rest of his life suffering and paralyzed with only a television to stare at.  Finite example, but why the hell does it matter HAL how much we reduce it?  Why should we take anything you say seriously when your words you admit are so frail and subject to this weak human nature you speak of?  Why does any human ever even bother standing up to torture in the first place?  If they know the consequences, why don't they all act according to your prescription: falter before trial?  Do you concede that some people might, just might hold their beliefs above pain avoidance?

I mean c'mon HAL, they know the possibility of the circumstances somewhat, yet they choose to at least try their best in the face of the torture.  Are you so closed-minded to the possibility that some humans are willing to make that choice which you see as pointless or silly or whatever?  I just don't get why you are so adamant that you are correct.  There's no correct or incorrect here - there is only speculation on this scenario given to us.  You just seem extremely arrogant and unwilling to fathom the willingness of a human being to suffer for their beliefs.  This hypothetical is the maximum and the extreme, but what makes you so gifted and special that you feel you can predict with absolute certainty the actions of others?  Can you concede that you do not know with absolute certainty the things you have claimed you do?  What makes you GAWD 'nuff to know these things man?  I just wish you could respect our right to disagree with you and not make assumptions like your silly "internet tough guy" assumption.  I strongly promise you that I'm not flexing muscles on this end listening to AC/DC regardless how much you'd love for that to be the case.  That's all I'm saying man.  I'm no tougher than anyone, but I promise that I care enough about my values to assure you I'd give my absolute best effort to avoid the worship of Bibleman (tm) - futile or not.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Death over Life on June 11, 2012, 10:30:17 PM
Well, regardless of who chooses what, it's mostly a mental game anyway. The only things that I'd like to suggest in the thread is, even if the hypothetical were 100% Fact, we are forgetting about the Serpent in the Garden, and the Iron Chariots. Even in the Bible, the Omnipotent God has not been Omnipotent, and has lost. What is to say this isn't possible with us?

Those who are unable to withstand torture, what of the Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire, and just sit there and meditate until they turn to ash alive?

Although I didn't read the whole debate, HAL is right in that most of us are whimps when it comes to realizing what pain and torture actually mean. However, what is failed to be recognized is that every ounce of our human capabilities have the ability to adapt and change. What is to say this isn't true with torture? We burn and are tortured beyond human recognition, we will be crying, we will be hurt, but over time, we evolve, we adjust, and we get to the point where either God's going to have to do a more severe form of torture, or torture is no longer painful to us.

Who's to say we can't thrive off of torture? I like the saying, Pain is simply weakness leaving the human body.

God has lost to Satan before, even by Bible standards, and Humans have been able to withstand horrible torture far worse than fire, cancer, acid baths etc. and yet, still have the will to die for what they believe in.

Sometimes you just got to say, the pain is worth holding on to what you believe or don't. It is better to burn as yourself than go to Heaven as a poser.

Remember, as per the Bible, even Omnipotence has weaknesses to exploit.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 11, 2012, 11:38:37 PM
Biblegod - "Should have paid attention to HAL son, the deal was worship me or eternal torture. Bye bye."

You're stuck forever. Any human not insane that realizes this will not choose eternal torture. But, please make my day and let's hear from other internet heroes, I'm certainly entertained by your mental heroism!

I loved this.

It is totally true. Anyone who has posted in this thread would choose to worship over being eternally tortured. Yes, I know this for a fact. I don't need to be a mind reader to know it.

Now, if you make a hypothetical scenario that Biblegod asks you to choose one or the other, it's anyone's game. Biblegod is full of shit. Biblegod changes his mind often. Biblegod inspires people to write unbelievable stuff down, and expects you to believe this far-fetched shit thousands of years later. If you opt to worship, Biblegod might tell you that you weren't brave enough for his liking, and send you to burn for eternity anyway. But don't worry eternally! He's apt to change his mind again sometime.

Thank God this asshole doesn't exist.

And to all you Christians out there:

Seriously? You can't possibly believe this bullshit in The Age Of Internet Heroes. Stop it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 11, 2012, 11:56:01 PM
FUCK,Hal for some odd reason Satan still roams free in spite of the fact that an ommni-max,all powerfull diety built hell to house him......if he can't imprison him eternally at will and immediatly following the rebellion of Satan whats to say he could do it to humans? This God has been shown to have MANY faults and has been shown to make MANY mistakes.

 Bible-God is a complete FAILURE in everything he has done,has had to kill of humanity a number of times and still is a failure today......so whats to say you cant escape hell.....the very prison can't even hold God's arch-enemy. You see,we can see God's faults and weakness....as can you,if God was not a complete failure,sure everyone would submit,if God was perfect,ya everyone would submit......but God is far from that in every respect (he is not perfect and he keeps failing at attempts to get it right)

 Why are you assuming God does not have faults? his word (OT and NT) show he is not ommni-max and he is NOT perfect or without flaw.....here is where you fail
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Death over Life on June 11, 2012, 11:58:15 PM
Biblegod - "Should have paid attention to HAL son, the deal was worship me or eternal torture. Bye bye."

You're stuck forever. Any human not insane that realizes this will not choose eternal torture. But, please make my day and let's hear from other internet heroes, I'm certainly entertained by your mental heroism!

I loved this.

It is totally true. Anyone who has posted in this thread would choose to worship over being eternally tortured. Yes, I know this for a fact. I don't need to be a mind reader to know it.

Now, if you make a hypothetical scenario that Biblegod asks you to choose one or the other, it's anyone's game. Biblegod is full of shit. Biblegod changes his mind often. Biblegod inspires people to write unbelievable stuff down, and expects you to believe this far-fetched shit thousands of years later. If you opt to worship, Biblegod might tell you that you weren't brave enough for his liking, and send you to burn for eternity anyway. But don't worry eternally! He's apt to change his mind again sometime.

Thank God this asshole doesn't exist.

And to all you Christians out there:

Seriously? You can't possibly believe this bullshit in The Age Of Internet Heroes. Stop it.

This kind of sounds like what various sects within Christianity and Islam believes actually. However though, they believe that neither Hell nor Heaven are permanent, but temporary. What it is, is it's based off of the karma system, so if you do in your eternity a lot of good, you'll go to Hell in very short incrimints because of how much of a saint you are being, but even the most evil of evil will be able to get to Heaven, but will have to endure a ton of punishment in Hell for those long list of sins.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 07:48:10 AM
I loved this.

It is totally true. Anyone who has posted in this thread would choose to worship over being eternally tortured. Yes, I know this for a fact. I don't need to be a mind reader to know it.

Quite. Thanks for being honest. If you have time can you lend any input on convincing these keyboard heroes why they are wrong?

Well to be quite honest, I don't know what to say. You are just correct man, end of story.  Nobody does anything if there's a chance of consequences I guess...

Again not true. You keep adding in little phrases that I never said - "Nobody does anything if there's a chance of consequences   ", and other types of sidetracking. Shame on you clarity. Shame on you. All I am saying is that no sane person would choose eternal torture over acts of worship to get out of it. It won't accomplish anything, it won't end, and the mind-fuck that Biblegod was proven true would make you re-evaluate your entire worldview. Unfortunately quite a few people here simply cannot think through the hypothetical as if it really came true.

Some people are almost convinced - they say "Well I could choose torture and then after a few minutes I'll realize I fucked up and then I'll admit I was wrong ...". They know what's wrong with that approach. But it's always back to keyboard heroics. I'm not buying it. No, not for a second.

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Guys if HAL tells you he will save you if you are about to fall off a cliff, you better not trust him...'cause what if he falls off too and has to go through the rest of his life suffering and paralyzed with only a television to stare at.  Finite example, but why the hell does it matter HAL how much we reduce it? 

Honest answer - I might not save you.

You seem to be telling us you are able to take on any situation oh brave one. No matter what, you will save anyone anywhere and take any pain for any reason (how does it feel when I use the same sidetracking). Now clarity, it's time to leave these heroic tidbits behind for your fiction novel and please tell the audience what your breaking point is. Where do you draw the line at saving your own skin? It's time to stop the bullshitting and come clean with us all.

Do you save your own skin for any reason if you see something attacking your "values" which if confronted might cause you to get hurt, tortured or killed. Or are you mentally invincible? After all this hypothetical choice of my OP doesn't affect anyone else. You choosing not to worship will not save anyone else, will not help the struggle, will not change anything at all for anyone else, will not make a point for future generations - it is futile. Choosing to worship Biblegod won't embarrass you and nobody will blame you because we will all have done it. So what's the point of choosing torture? You're basically being irrational in your answer so you can appear heroic.

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Why should we take anything you say seriously when your words you admit are so frail and subject to this weak human nature you speak of?

Because you are just like me and everybody else - braver behind a keyboard than in real life. Just like Nam, OAA, Anfauglir. You type out heroics like you were under contract for 5 novels. I'm just being honest about it. That makes me someone who you can take seriously. Because I'm being totally honest, I can't predict what types of non-hypothetical (referring to heroic acts not the hypothetical in question) hero acts I could do. Some would require instant choice making. Others would require me choosing to do something risky for a loved one and so on. Some others I would save my own skin over risking death. Who here can claim they wouldn't in some circumstances?

But if you think I'm going to suffer eternal torture for my supposed "values" you are fucking crazy. My values can change, you're damn right. Why? Becasue if Biblegod was proven to be true His values rule the day and cannot be changed by you or me. This doesn't apply to other non-hypothetical situations so don't fly off the handle again, it only applies to the hypothetical.

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Why does any human ever even bother standing up to torture in the first place?  If they know the consequences, why don't they all act according to your prescription: falter before trial?  Do you concede that some people might, just might hold their beliefs above pain avoidance?

I've already explained why, but I guess I'll have to do it again. Torture on Earth always ends - either you escape or die and that's that. People know this and they know an end is coming no matter what. Not only that, I don't think people are tortured 24/7/365 ever at the maximum level - they always get breaks. That's not true in the hypothetical - no end to the torture ever comes. No sane person would choose that.

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I mean c'mon HAL, they know the possibility of the circumstances somewhat, yet they choose to at least try their best in the face of the torture.  Are you so closed-minded to the possibility that some humans are willing to make that choice which you see as pointless or silly or whatever?  I just don't get why you are so adamant that you are correct.  There's no correct or incorrect here - there is only speculation on this scenario given to us.

I disagree. There is a predictable choice. You will not, in the face of the hypothetical coming true, choose eternal torture. You will not because the overpowering humanity of the situation will weigh your thinking down and you will not for any reason risk being eternally tortured. You will realize that a real god exists and you will, in the span of a very short few minutes, think through all the possibilities and realize your little world is gone - bye bye - and you will save your ass just like the rest of us.

Sometimes you just got to say, the pain is worth holding on to what you believe or don't. It is better to burn as yourself than go to Heaven as a poser.

I do not believe for a second that you would do that, and I know you wouldn't in the face of the actual hypothetical coming true.

Why don't some of you ask the other members who agree with me to explain it, maybe they can do a better job. I've done my best but the keyboard heroics still seem to be coming in.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 12, 2012, 08:24:07 AM
HAL,

I wanted you to know, that I realized you've intentionally left me out of your insults to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I'm not certain why, but I can speculate. I respect that you have pretty much ignored me in this thread for the reasons that I speculate but I don't think I deserve special treatment or being ignored.

I have found your position in this thread to be insulting on many occasions, not to myself directly since you've not directed anything at me, but I share similar ideas to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity and have expressed that here numerous times. So I can only assume that you also feel the same way about my perspective as you do theirs.

As you should know by now, I truly do say what I mean. I'm not an internet tough guy, liar, idiot, insane, or whatever else you have called Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I think you know this to be true, but don't want to address it because you don't want to insult me. I actually discussed this topic offline with Dustin. He agrees with you in the sense that it would not be rational to choose hell. Perhaps you mean that instead of the other adjectives you've decided to use in this thread.

I can concede that it is not the rational part in me that would choose hell, it's purely emotional. And if the emotional part of me dies before being asked by the bible god to choose, than I would of course use my rationality to decide. But over all of the years I've spent on the forum I've never been able to give up the emotional baggage that many of you have. It's that reason that I know I would not pick heaven. Perhaps I've obtained a peace of humanity that many of us lose when being on this forum for so long. IDK  but you seem to have become numb or oblivious to the other natures of humanity. And that my friend, makes me sad. Not because of the perceived insults in this thread, but because of the very reasons you have ignored my opinions here. I do value your opinion and friendship, you are the main reason I came back to this forum.

I sincerely hope that you have not allowed these forums to take away a piece of your humanity, so much so that you can't respect another persons choice. It's not for you to decide how you think they will pick, you can judge their decisions, but you have placed yourself on a pedestal that even you would shatter from if you fell.

Any ways, I'm pretty sure that's all I had to say. /Soapbox
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2012, 08:47:23 AM
Hal,

Thank you for your considered response.  Combined with the day I've just had, I'm feeling extremely beaten down.

I want to choose to reject Yahweh.  I still hope I would.  But you are probably right.  If it was all, actually, 100% real, then its more than likely I'd grovel and cave.  What a miserable scenario. 

For me, that makes this website pointless - not just this website, but any stand against god 'X'.  What purpose me being a keyboard hero and arguing how evil Yahweh is, what a monster he is, when I know that in the ultimate test I'd bow down before him?  Doesn't matter that I don't believe it NOW - if I accept that if I DID believe I would give everything he wants, then I can't see what point there is, what credibility there is, in saying it now.  Easy-peasy to blow raspberries at Yahweh, to renounce the Holy Spirit when we don't believe a word of it. 

My dilemma.  I can't think of one argument I could make against the hypothetical Biblegod (that I don't believe in), that I would be able to maintain if I did believe.  And I can't just see hypocrisy, I see very real problems to what I think is right.  How could I justify arguing someone into a position that I know I wouldn't be able to maintain?

None of this means that I am off to church to confess and become a believer.  After all, it could be Allah giving me that ultimate choice when I die, or any one of another billion gods and demons.  Pascal's wager is still flawed, and - lacking that vital actual knowledge - I won't be choosing any religion to follow now.  I'll just - as you say - accept and worship whatever god I see once I've breathed my last.

But I can't see how I can maintain integrity and argue against a hypothetical that I've had to admit I'd actually go with if it turned out to be true.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 08:55:37 AM
I wanted you to know, that I realized you've intentionally left me out of your insults to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I'm not certain why, but I can speculate. I respect that you have pretty much ignored me in this thread for the reasons that I speculate but I don't think I deserve special treatment or being ignored.

OK I'm sorry I'll now make a point to include you in my insults.  :)

Quote
I have found your position in this thread to be insulting on many occasions, not to myself directly since you've not directed anything at me, but I share similar ideas to Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity and have expressed that here numerous times. So I can only assume that you also feel the same way about my perspective as you do theirs.

If you think it's insulting then my point is getting across. Good. I'm succeeding. People don't like confronting tough things so one way out is to claim it's insulting. If you are insulted it is a method to deflect the point away from you back to the other person so you don't have to deal with it. It''s not worth considering because it's "insulting". I'm, not here to sugarcoat this. This is a very nasty choice and it sucks to think about but it's important.

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As you should know by now, I truly do say what I mean. I'm not an internet tough guy, liar, idiot, insane, or whatever else you have called Nam, OAA, Anfauglir, and OnlyClarity. I think you know this to be true, but don't want to address it because you don't want to insult me. I actually discussed this topic offline with Dustin. He agrees with you in the sense that it would not be rational to choose hell. Perhaps you mean that instead of the other adjectives you've decided to use in this thread.

Right it's not rational - same result. Unless you suffer at the time temporary insanity, then you will not act rationally. I covered that. Nevertheless, I do not think you will do it. Sorry. but since you are not insane you won't.

Quote
I can concede that it is not the rational part in me that would choose hell, it's purely emotional. And if the emotional part of me dies before being asked by the bible god to choose, than I would of course use my rationality to decide. But over all of the years I've spent on the forum I've never been able to give up the emotional baggage that many of you have. It's that reason that I know I would not pick heaven. Perhaps I've obtained a peace of humanity that many of us lose when being on this forum for so long. IDK  but you seem to have become numb or oblivious to the other natures of humanity. And that my friend, makes me sad. Not because of the perceived insults in this thread, but because of the very reasons you have ignored my opinions here. I do value your opinion and friendship, you are the main reason I came back to this forum.

Maybe what you are describing is some sort of temporary insanity that would take place? Emotional does not equal rational - emotion rising to the level of choosing maximum irrationality (eternal torture) over anything else is tantamount to temporary insanity. If so I covered that scenario.

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I sincerely hope that you have not allowed these forums to take away a piece of your humanity, so much so that you can't respect another persons choice. It's not for you to decide how you think they will pick, you can judge their decisions, but you have placed yourself on a pedestal that even you would shatter from if you fell.

Any ways, I'm pretty sure that's all I had to say. /Soapbox

Well we're going in circles because I'm at the point of repeating over and over what I know to be true - that you will not choose eternal torture if you are sane. Think of all the consequences - what if Dustin and your daughter were to opt out for worship? Would you still say you'd choose eternal torture over staying with them? See what I mean - it's a horrible dilemma but I KNOW you won't opt for Hell. Some sort of state which might be called temporary insanity could be cause for a person choosing it. I already covered that and said it might happen. I'd really like some others who agree with me to chime in. They might be able to sugar coat an explanation that won't hurt people's feelings.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 09:32:21 AM
Hal,

Thank you for your considered response.  Combined with the day I've just had, I'm feeling extremely beaten down.

OK, sorry to hear that.

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I want to choose to reject Yahweh.  I still hope I would.  But you are probably right.  If it was all, actually, 100% real, then its more than likely I'd grovel and cave.  What a miserable scenario. 

Indeed, The most miserable scenario I could think of, that's why I started this thread. It's a topic that needs to be talked about.

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For me, that makes this website pointless - not just this website, but any stand against god 'X'.  What purpose me being a keyboard hero and arguing how evil Yahweh is, what a monster he is, when I know that in the ultimate test I'd bow down before him?  Doesn't matter that I don't believe it NOW - if I accept that if I DID believe I would give everything he wants, then I can't see what point there is, what credibility there is, in saying it now.  Easy-peasy to blow raspberries at Yahweh, to renounce the Holy Spirit when we don't believe a word of it. 

Most of what we're doing here on the forum is a waste of time, as far as getting our point across anyway. Is that shocking to anyone?

Quote
My dilemma.  I can't think of one argument I could make against the hypothetical Biblegod (that I don't believe in), that I would be able to maintain if I did believe.  And I can't just see hypocrisy, I see very real problems to what I think is right.  How could I justify arguing someone into a position that I know I wouldn't be able to maintain?

None of this means that I am off to church to confess and become a believer.  After all, it could be Allah giving me that ultimate choice when I die, or any one of another billion gods and demons.  Pascal's wager is still flawed, and - lacking that vital actual knowledge - I won't be choosing any religion to follow now.  I'll just - as you say - accept and worship whatever god I see once I've breathed my last.

But I can't see how I can maintain integrity and argue against a hypothetical that I've had to admit I'd actually go with if it turned out to be true.

Well, we aren't arguing on the forum what we'd do if Biblegod was real most of the time. We're arguing that it is indeed not real, that there is no good evidence it is real. Either it is real or it isn't real. If it isn't real, and you and I think that is the case, then we should argue against it.

Fortunately the hypothetical scenario is just that and for all we know and believe it's not going to happen. That's very good.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 12, 2012, 09:50:18 AM
OK I'm sorry I'll now make a point to include you in my insults.  :)

Why thank you good sir. Seriously though, you don't have to ignore me. If you think I'm wrong then tell me, I'd expect nothing less.

If you think it's insulting then my point is getting across. Good. I'm succeeding. People don't like confronting tough things so one way out is to claim it's insulting. If you are insulted it is a method to deflect the point away from you back to the other person so you don't have to deal with it. It''s not worth considering because it's "insulting". I'm, not here to sugarcoat this. This is a very nasty choice and it sucks to think about but it's important.

You don't have to be insulting to make a point. I'm not attempting to deflect the point away from myself, but simply to show you that you can have a conversation on this topic with out the adjectives you have chosen. I don't consider it sugar coating to show respect for your peers. Perhaps Nam is not someone you would consider your peer, IDK. But Anfauglir seems like a pretty rational/reasonable person and you used the same methods on him.

Right it's not rational - same result. Unless you suffer at the time temporary insanity, then you will not act rationally. I covered that. Nevertheless, I do not think you will do it. Sorry. but since you are not insane you won't.

Being irrational and insane aren't the same thing. Some people use pure logic to make decisions, some people use pure emotions to make decisions. Sometimes both methods can and will be wrong, and sometimes you need to be able to use an equal amount of both. I personally struggle with leaning more towards the emotional side and I constantly work to find that balance. My point is that there are people who are not like you, who are not purely logic driven. These people exist and they are not insane by common day standards, so to say they would have to be insane at the point of decision in this OP is not fair. They can be wrong, irrational, or whatever, but I don't think they would have to be clinically insane to make the other choice.

Maybe this is a break down in communication and you aren't using insane in the clinical sense? I'm pretty certain you are though.


Maybe what you are describing is some sort of temporary insanity that would take place? Emotional does not equal rational - emotion rising to the level of choosing maximum irrationality (eternal torture) over anything else is tantamount to temporary insanity. If so I covered that scenario.

No, I don't think that was what I was describing at all.... Here's how it would look to me.

God: "Hey Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right? Well the good news is everything in the bible is true, here look as I show you undeniable truth. ::PAUSE TO WATCH TRUTH::"

Me: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Me: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "::POOF:: be gone you ant!"

Seriously. I don't really have a choice. It's either the above or god reads my "mind" and knows I can't worship him. Or I'm sent to hell anyways for all my sins on earth. So why not give myself the illusion of choice and enjoy my last moment of "freedom"? It's intentional delusion on my part because I don't see how I'm really being offered salvation at all. Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

Well we're going in circles because I'm at the point of repeating over and over what I know to be true - that you will not choose eternal torture if you are sane. Think of all the consequences - what if Dustin and your daughter were to opt out for worship? Would you still say you'd choose eternal torture over staying with them? See what I mean - it's a horrible dilemma but I KNOW you won't opt for Hell. Some sort of state which might be called temporary insanity could be cause for a person choosing it. I already covered that and said it might happen. I'd really like some others who agree with me to chime in. They might be able to sugar coat an explanation that won't hurt people's feelings.

Well now your trying to appeal to my emotional side! See what I mean, you can use emotional reasoning to try to convince me on why I should pick heaven but you dismiss any other emotional reasoning as being insane. That's illogical HAL.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 09:58:16 AM
A moderator move one post of mine to another board, probably for good reason, so I want to respect that decision. I want to understand where we're supposed to talk about this now.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: naemhni on June 12, 2012, 10:00:23 AM
A moderator move one post of mine to another board, probably for good reason, so I want to respect that decision. I want to understand where we're supposed to talk about this now.

I moved it to the Bottomless Pit because it seemed to have deteriorated to that point.  I thought the whole thing was moved, but apparently it wasn't.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Add Homonym on June 12, 2012, 10:06:10 AM
I still don't think any definition of hell or worship has been presented that makes me change my mind.

If the bible says I'm going to hell, which I'm pretty sure we can all agree to that it does. Why not lie to myself, via giving myself the illusion that I have a choice?

I'm not sure that the Bible agrees that you go to hell. For one thing, the word 'eternal' is missing from the Bible, and Revelation is interpreted by Christians (usually) to mean an ending (second death). For twoth; when you look at Matthew, heaven contains layers of fruity goodness (least in heaven, greatest in heaven], and the main thing to get into heaven is to love your neighbour. Paul is the problem, because he says you have to believe in Jesus to get into heaven, but makes no mention of what happens if you don't. Paul's (probably Sadduceean) view in Galatians, is that the heaven is a place where extra special people, like Ezekiel and Enoch went, and you can go there, too, if you use the Jesus prophylactic.

However, in Luke, Lazarus goes to a heaven (Bosom of Abraham), just because he was poor and ate crumbs. There could, in theory, be grades of hell - you know, a special one for Hitler, and more neutral zones in Sheol, where time passes in a mundane way, or not at all.

Accounts of what hell is, vary, and some Christians have disappeared it from their religion.

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I can pretend that flipping god off and telling him what an asshole he is will do me any good on my way to this lake of fire.

You can pretend that for a whole hour, until your personality is burned away, and flipping God didn't seem like a fun thing to do, because you can't even remember it.

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I don't see how pretending to agree to worship god long enough to be outed and sent to hell any ways is a better option??? Sorry HAL, but I respectfully disagree with you.

What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Add Homonym on June 12, 2012, 10:07:07 AM
I moved it to the Bottomless Pit because it seemed to have deteriorated to that point.  I thought the whole thing was moved, but apparently it wasn't.

Oh, right, you did mean to kill the whole thing.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 10:07:14 AM
A moderator move one post of mine to another board, probably for good reason, so I want to respect that decision. I want to understand where we're supposed to talk about this now.

I moved it to the Bottomless Pit because it seemed to have deteriorated to that point.  I thought the whole thing was moved, but apparently it wasn't.

Oh OK, you should move it all or set it back to where it was please. It a mess right now.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 12, 2012, 10:17:42 AM
What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Seriously. I don't really have a choice. It's either the above or god reads my "mind" and knows I can't worship him. Or I'm sent to hell anyways for all my sins on earth. So why not give myself the illusion of choice and enjoy my last moment of "freedom"? It's intentional delusion on my part because I don't see how I'm really being offered salvation at all. Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Add Homonym on June 12, 2012, 10:30:46 AM
Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

I don't know how you can understand what God is, because the Bible seems to have been written by dickheads.

This is 2 Peter
[3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Peter believes in Noah, and the story of all the fallen angels, from 1 Enoch, which is a banned book. Who the fuck is Peter? Scholars tend to see 2 Peter as "pseudepigraphical" (a fake), so this means that Peter is some random guy (90-150AD). I'm wondering if it's too late for me to be published in the Bible. Maybe not.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
But I can't see how I can maintain integrity and argue against a hypothetical that I've had to admit I'd actually go with if it turned out to be true.

Well, we aren't arguing on the forum what we'd do if Biblegod was real most of the time. We're arguing that it is indeed not real, that there is no good evidence it is real. Either it is real or it isn't real. If it isn't real, and you and I think that is the case, then we should argue against it.

Fortunately the hypothetical scenario is just that and for all we know and believe it's not going to happen. That's very good.

Unfortunately it doesn't help me.  I think we're at cross purposes.  Perhaps its just that we concentrate on different things?  Frankly, I'm not especially interested in arguing the reality aspect, insofar as I don't believe there is any way of proving it one way or the other - or, better say, any way of proving the non-reality to a believer.  My preference has always been for what (to me at any rate) is the more realistic goal of looking at the character.

And like I say, to concede that I WOULD bow down to that character makes damn near everything I've said moot.  So this may well be it for me here.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Add Homonym on June 12, 2012, 10:47:39 AM
And like I say, to concede that I WOULD bow down to that character makes damn near everything I've said moot.  So this may well be it for me here.

But, a random passer-by Christian would see you bowing down to a fictitious construct, because most of them don't believe in Biblegod, except Phred Felps.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 10:48:01 AM
You don't have to be insulting to make a point. I'm not attempting to deflect the point away from myself, but simply to show you that you can have a conversation on this topic with out the adjectives you have chosen. I don't consider it sugar coating to show respect for your peers.

I should be better behaved - you are right. I will try harder. I think the moderator moved one post by mistake so I'm going to move it back to get the thread in order.

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Perhaps Nam is not someone you would consider your peer, IDK. But Anfauglir seems like a pretty rational/reasonable person and you used the same methods on him.

I did and you know what? He agreed I was right. I had to get people to realize that glossing over this hypothetical isn't going to fly. I'm sorry I was insulting but I saw no other way to get the point across to some of them - and it worked. From now on I will try to behave. If I don't, I deserve a warning from a moderator just like anyone else.

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Being irrational and insane aren't the same thing. Some people use pure logic to make decisions, some people use pure emotions to make decisions. Sometimes both methods can and will be wrong, and sometimes you need to be able to use an equal amount of both. I personally struggle with leaning more towards the emotional side and I constantly work to find that balance. My point is that there are people who are not like you, who are not purely logic driven. These people exist and they are not insane by common day standards, so to say they would have to be insane at the point of decision in this OP is not fair. They can be wrong, irrational, or whatever, but I don't think they would have to be clinically insane to make the other choice.

Maybe this is a break down in communication and you aren't using insane in the clinical sense? I'm pretty certain you are though.


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No, I don't think that was what I was describing at all.... Here's how it would look to me.

God: "Hey Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right? Well the good news is everything in the bible is true, here look as I show you undeniable truth. ::PAUSE TO WATCH TRUTH::"

Me: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Me: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "::POOF:: be gone you ant!"

Seriously. I don't really have a choice. It's either the above or god reads my "mind" and knows I can't worship him. Or I'm sent to hell anyways for all my sins on earth. So why not give myself the illusion of choice and enjoy my last moment of "freedom"? It's intentional delusion on my part because I don't see how I'm really being offered salvation at all. Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

You again illustrate in your example that you are not considering the consequences of your actions and I respectfully disagree that you would act that way in front of an actual deity. No sane person will choose etermal torture. I've covered this worship thing several times. Worshipping is not mental it's physical. If you do the acts required of worship then you've satisfied the requirement, even though all along you are hating it. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, doesn't matter what Biblegod reads in your mind. If you complete the physical acts of worship you are OK.

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Well now your trying to appeal to my emotional side! See what I mean, you can use emotional reasoning to try to convince me on why I should pick heaven but you dismiss any other emotional reasoning as being insane. That's illogical HAL.

Well, there's emotions that are not indicative of insanity, and emotions that are indicative of insanity.  :)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 12, 2012, 12:34:07 PM
Note; this only applies if this is the bible god of my understanding. If we SPAG and turn him in to a nicer god who truly is offering salvation and only a little praise and gratitude than sure I will join him. But that is not the god I understand of the bible.

I don't know how you can understand what God is, because the Bible seems to have been written by dickheads.

I don't, which is why I said to my understanding. I could be entirely wrong about my understanding of God. I hoping that if this hypothetical ever comes true that I at least get a grace period long enough to learn the truth about this God and his wishes.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 12, 2012, 12:45:41 PM
I did and you know what? He agreed I was right. I had to get people to realize that glossing over this hypothetical isn't going to fly. I'm sorry I was insulting but I saw no other way to get the point across to some of them - and it worked. From now on I will try to behave. If I don't, I deserve a warning from a moderator just like anyone else.

That seems fair enough.

You again illustrate in your example that you are not considering the consequences of your actions and I respectfully disagree that you would act that way in front of an actual deity. No sane person will choose etermal torture. I've covered this worship thing several times. Worshipping is not mental it's physical. If you do the acts required of worship then you've satisfied the requirement, even though all along you are hating it. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, doesn't matter what Biblegod reads in your mind. If you complete the physical acts of worship you are OK.

Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

Matthew 12:31-32 provides the best warning for committing an unforgivable sin:
31: "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."
32: "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the [age] to come."

Read more: About Unforgivable Sins | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4596886_unforgivable-sins.html#ixzz1xbPyyM3q

Which is why I would, in the threat of a perceived choice, pretend I actually had a choice and pick hell.

Well, there's emotions that are not indicative of insanity, and emotions that are indicative of insanity.  :)

QFT, but if my children end up in hell.... then do you find me insane for picking hell?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 02:08:15 PM
Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

If you acknowledge god exists, then you are, by definition, not an atheist. If the hypothetical was true, you are no longer an atheist at that point by definition, so you really lost me altogether there.

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Matthew 12:31-32 provides the best warning for committing an unforgivable sin:
31: "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."
32: "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the [age] to come."

Easy answer. You have no way to verify that is true or false at this time. Besides, it's apparently more complicated than just quoting a few verses -

Quote
Christianity has many different branches today. Depending on the denomination or reading and interpretation of the Bible, definitions of the unforgivable sin differ.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4596886_unforgivable-sins.html#ixzz1xbPyyM3q

and -

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

All that minutia of theological verse analysis will go nowhere as you are well aware and is way off topic as regards the hypothetical for now so if you want to start some other discussion about it go right ahead in a new thread.

QFT, but if my children end up in hell.... then do you find me insane for picking hell?

Yes, absolutely.

Do you think that you would be taking them to Satan's daycare before you go to daily torture? It's a non-issue, because, for one, you can't help them, and, well, I'm not going to say anymore because I've agreed to be nicer in the thread and the example I'd provide to illustrate my point would probably make you mad at me and the scene I described would upset you (not because you are female but because you love your children). Use your imagination.

What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Let's take another look at a possible conversation -

God: "Hi Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right?"

Kimberly: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally - please watch your language though. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Kimberly: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "You have just met me - you don't really know me at all. Just give it your best shot. It's easy. Yea I ask you to do a lot of silly things, but as long as you do them it's gonna be alright. They aren't hard to do.

Kimberly: "But what about the horrible things you've done in the Bible?"

God: "Did you see me do any of those things Kimberly?"

Kimberly: "Did I see ... um, well, ah, no sir, I guess I didn't. But why are they described in there?"

God: "The Bible was written by ancient peoples, and they - ahem - embellished a lot of it to their liking. You may ask why I didn't correct it. I don't intervene in most matters on Earth. It's for you all to run and write about. But now that I've been proven to exist by Dr. Vishurishushiti using his Quantum-Z Reverse Entropy proof of God published in this month's Nature, I have decided to go ahead and appear. No reason not to anymore. You now know you have to worship me or be eternally tortured. But it's pretty easy, and HAL, Dustin and the rest have just finished my altar, and they are now enjoying a nice feast over there. It smells wonderful (I'm really into aromas if you didn't know). It's a really good package deal if you think about it, if I do say so myself."

Kimberly: "But it doesn't seem ... fair sir. It doesn't seem like I have a real choice. I mean what rational person would choose eternal torture when they could get out of it by doing a few simple acts of worship? What kind of choice is that?"

God: "Exactly. No rational person would - that's why it's such a great deal. It's a great offer and no rational person would choose eternal torture. And I'm happy that I know you are a rational person Kimberly. It has to be this way because of a complex interwoven super-27 dimensional morality complex that you couldn't begin to understand - it goes way, way back. I remember why I had to create it ... Sorry I can't explain it on human terms, you'd need a brain the size of Jupiter to comprehend it. Besides - I never said life would be fair. But suffice it to say you don't have to go to Hell."

Kimberly: "Well, being a rational person, I guess you're right sir. I choose to stay away from eternal torture and join the gang!"

God: "Great choice Kimberly! I hope you like lamb chops! It's one of my favorite pleasing aromas!"




Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 12, 2012, 02:57:00 PM
Which is why I would, in the threat of a perceived choice, pretend I actually had a choice and pick hell.

If I could save anyone who ever lived from eternal torture by suffering agonizing torture myself for a limited time, I would be willing to go at least an hour in order to save even the sickest bastard who ever lived(whoever that may be). If Biblegod allowed me to override your decision, I would make you worship. It would bother me way too much to know that you were going through that extreme torture for eternity. It would be the lesser of two evils. Worshipping for eternity is definitely some form of torture, unless the one being worshipped actually deserves eternal worship.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 12, 2012, 03:52:12 PM
Just to toss this in, and sorry to interrupt the back and forth:

History shows us that in a lot of instances, torture and mistreatment can cause people to love/worship their torturer.

It's called 'Stockholm Syndrome,' famously identified with kidnap victims who over time come to believe that they love and share the same values as their captors.  Patty Hearst, etc. 

I speculate this is an adaptation in humans that allows us to live under the thumb of the tyrants who typically rule our tribes and nations. 

The point is...if Biblegod were rule, he'd break most of us through living in fear all our lives, and we'd come to believe we loved him. 

Think of Winston Smith in 1984, how in the end he comes to love Big Brother. 

Biblegod is a reality within the minds of many humans.  They love him because they've spent a lifetime being mentally abused by him.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 12, 2012, 04:11:25 PM
I don't think anyone here - not one single person - can truly answer the question posed in this thread unless and until it actually happens.  It's easy to be brave in our own minds, or in speeches given, but it's a lot harder to actually be brave, even when it comes to much more ordinary fears.  When it comes to the belief in a being who can sentence one to indefinite torture for not doing something, then it's a lot easier to understand the reasoning behind things like Pascal's Wager.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on June 12, 2012, 04:13:12 PM
Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

If you acknowledge god exists, then you are, by definition, not an atheist. If the hypothetical was true, you are no longer an atheist at that point by definition, so you really lost me altogether there.


I think what Kimberly may mean is that if it were proved that god were real, many atheists would, by definition, already be exempt from salvation by converting because they would have already committed the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 12, 2012, 05:43:35 PM
Where am I not considering the consequences? I don't even agree that there is actually a choice to be made. I think the hypothetical is wrong, I think that we atheist are already damned to hell.

If you acknowledge god exists, then you are, by definition, not an atheist. If the hypothetical was true, you are no longer an atheist at that point by definition, so you really lost me altogether there.

I think what Kimberly may mean is that if it were proved that god were real, many atheists would, by definition, already be exempt from salvation by converting because they would have already committed the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit.

Yes that is what I meant, thank you. Sorry I'm late responding I had to leave work sick and get some rest.


Easy answer. You have no way to verify that is true or false at this time. Besides, it's apparently more complicated than just quoting a few verses -
<snip>
All that minutia of theological verse analysis will go nowhere as you are well aware and is way off topic as regards the hypothetical for now so if you want to start some other discussion about it go right ahead in a new thread.

I know it's not as easy as quoting a few verses, and I have no intention to derail this topic or start a new topic about this specific verse. I'm merely pointing out how I understand the bible and why I rationalize the choice of hell the way I did. If upon entering in to the dilemma of the OP; I don't believe their to be a choice because I'm already doomed to hell, and this God before me doesn't give the option to know if what I already believe to be true is true or not.... I can only go off of what knowledge I have before entering in to this dilemma and make a decisions accordingly.

In your OP are you asking us to assume that upon entering the cross road of this decisions we have to squash all of our preconceived notions? And what then if he gives us no new information? And we can only believe it's all a trick and we will be sent to hell any ways? Then you've lost the last moment of "freedom" you had left.

Yes, absolutely.

Do you think that you would be taking them to Satan's daycare before you go to daily torture? It's a non-issue, because, for one, you can't help them, and, well, I'm not going to say anymore because I've agreed to be nicer in the thread and the example I'd provide to illustrate my point would probably make you mad at me and the scene I described would upset you (not because you are female but because you love your children). Use your imagination.

I know the scene. But you think I want some magic dust in heaven so that knowing their fate will some how not allow me to feel the sadness you are now trying to prevent me from feeling? Well then you are kinder than the god of the bible. As I understand he would not allow me to feel pain for their suffering, instead I get to watch them suffer in some kind of gladiator arena whilst eating pork chops. Knowing I'm a mother and how much I love my children you some how think I would find this acceptable and be able to worship him?

I can't even begin to imagine how you come to that conclusion. Unless upon entering heaven I cease being Kimberly and become some insane version of myself. Well then yes that is highly plausible.

What if your perception that God is an evil bastard, is actually wrong, and the Bible is simply divinely inspired, and full of errors? What if God is a good chap, who has bad press? In order to answer this question, you need a random passer-by Christian to tell you who God really is.

Let's take another look at a possible conversation -

God: "Hi Kimberly, so you're here now and I'm real. Pretty cool right?"

Kimberly: "Hi God, I didn't expect this... fuck your kinda scary!"

God: "Yea literally - please watch your language though. So now worship me or I send you this lake of fire down there. ::PAUSES TO SHOW LAKE OF FIRE::"

Kimberly: "But I really don't like you, I'm not sure I can worship you to your liking."

God: "You have just met me - you don't really know me at all. Just give it your best shot. It's easy. Yea I ask you to do a lot of silly things, but as long as you do them it's gonna be alright. They aren't hard to do.

Kimberly: "But what about the horrible things you've done in the Bible?"

God: "Did you see me do any of those things Kimberly?"

Kimberly: "Did I see ... um, well, ah, no sir, I guess I didn't. But why are they described in there?"

God: "The Bible was written by ancient peoples, and they - ahem - embellished a lot of it to their liking. You may ask why I didn't correct it. I don't intervene in most matters on Earth. It's for you all to run and write about. But now that I've been proven to exist by Dr. Vishurishushiti using his Quantum-Z Reverse Entropy proof of God published in this month's Nature, I have decided to go ahead and appear. No reason not to anymore. You now know you have to worship me or be eternally tortured. But it's pretty easy, and HAL, Dustin and the rest have just finished my altar, and they are now enjoying a nice feast over there. It smells wonderful (I'm really into aromas if you didn't know). It's a really good package deal if you think about it, if I do say so myself."

Kimberly: "But it doesn't seem ... fair sir. It doesn't seem like I have a real choice. I mean what rational person would choose eternal torture when they could get out of it by doing a few simple acts of worship? What kind of choice is that?"

God: "Exactly. No rational person would - that's why it's such a great deal. It's a great offer and no rational person would choose eternal torture. And I'm happy that I know you are a rational person Kimberly. It has to be this way because of a complex interwoven super-27 dimensional morality complex that you couldn't begin to understand - it goes way, way back. I remember why I had to create it ... Sorry I can't explain it on human terms, you'd need a brain the size of Jupiter to comprehend it. Besides - I never said life would be fair. But suffice it to say you don't have to go to Hell."

Kimberly: "Well, being a rational person, I guess you're right sir. I choose to stay away from eternal torture and join the gang!"

God: "Great choice Kimberly! I hope you like lamb chops! It's one of my favorite pleasing aromas!"

You assume the bible god already gives you the choice. We don't know if any of the stories in the bible are true. We don't know that we will be given an option. We don't know that he will waste his time explaining himself to us. We don't know anything.

I want to thank Nam for this topic. Here's what Nam says about it -

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.

You asked a simple question. There aren't many parameters we have to go off of. (Think of the old Superfly moral quandaries and how specific they were.) So I can only answer it to the best of my ability with the knowledge I have. I've attempted to do that, I feel like I've played the game according the parameters you set.

Maybe you should retry the question with more specific parameters and less un answered variables?
I'm not feeling well ATM. I'm logging off of the forum for the night.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 12, 2012, 06:09:34 PM
I know it's not as easy as quoting a few verses, and I have no intention to derail this topic or start a new topic about this specific verse.

You might not be intending to derail it but you are.

Quote
I'm merely pointing out how I understand the bible and why I rationalize the choice of hell the way I did. If upon entering in to the dilemma of the OP; I don't believe their to be a choice because I'm already doomed to hell, and this God before me doesn't give the option to know if what I already believe to be true is true or not.... I can only go off of what knowledge I have before entering in to this dilemma and make a decisions accordingly.

It's a hypothetical choice - it doesn't take into account anything else because if we throw the Bible in we'd be arguing for 2,500 pages and 12 years. It's meant to make you think about a stark choice. Why are you going off on the "I'm doomed to Hell" tangent anyway? I don't get it, are you still worried that this god of the Bible is real? I sense you have some kind of fear about this hypothetical. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, if all atheists are doomed to Hell then how could anyone that was an atheist accept JC? Now you got me going off topic. Arghhh. Stop.

Quote
In your OP are you asking us to assume that upon entering the cross road of this decisions we have to squash all of our preconceived notions? And what then if he gives us no new information? And we can only believe it's all a trick and we will be sent to hell any ways? Then you've lost the last moment of "freedom" you had left.

The hypothetical is the hypothetical. There is no more information to go on than what is presented. It's my hypothetical and it is what it is. If you want to make your own new hypothetical please start a new thread and we'll investigate it there.

Quote
Maybe you should retry the question with more specific parameters and less un answered variables?

No, it's just the way I want it.

You either choose eternal torture or worship god. That's the stark choice in front of you. If you want to choose eternal torture then go for it, I won't bother you anymore about it.

Quote
I'm not feeling well ATM. I'm logging off of the forum for the night.

OK I hope you get better.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Death over Life on June 12, 2012, 08:57:29 PM
Sometimes you just got to say, the pain is worth holding on to what you believe or don't. It is better to burn as yourself than go to Heaven as a poser.

I do not believe for a second that you would do that, and I know you wouldn't in the face of the actual hypothetical coming true.

Why don't some of you ask the other members who agree with me to explain it, maybe they can do a better job. I've done my best but the keyboard heroics still seem to be coming in.

Very easy. I'm not your definition of sane, and I don't care what you believe or what you don't believe. Once again, Buddhist monks on fire anybody?

(http://www.greencheeseparty.com/images/resistancefirst/File0096.jpg)

Perhaps if you could define the word “sane”, it may give us a better perspective on your views.

I don't think anyone here - not one single person - can truly answer the question posed in this thread unless and until it actually happens.  It's easy to be brave in our own minds, or in speeches given, but it's a lot harder to actually be brave, even when it comes to much more ordinary fears.  When it comes to the belief in a being who can sentence one to indefinite torture for not doing something, then it's a lot easier to understand the reasoning behind things like Pascal's Wager.

What my problems with the whole thread is, if the hypothetical “god” is proven true, the question is, which hypothetical god? Even suspending disbelief for a moment, 2,000 years of Christianity and nobody has come to which interpretation is true or not. 2,000 years and 38,000 denominations and the damn people who made this up can’t agree with each other as to what’s true or false, and now we are to expect atheists to know which is the better interpretation?

We need to specifically discuss which hypothetical god of the 38,000 Christian denominations there are. In addition, we have the hundreds of thousands of other gods to choose from. In a reality situation, God being real in this case, we STILL HAVE 37,999/38,000 chance of being wrong, and then add in the other gods being thrown into the equation, and you’ve come to a point where trying to follow god is worthless and trivial anyway. Remember, 2,000 years ago GOD himself came down, and apparently more gods than ever came out of it instead of a unity like it was thought.

In this day and age, this would probably happen again, despite the fact that we have video, cameras, pictures etc. Despite all this, the Bible itself doesn’t even agree that there is an eternity. It doesn’t matter which afterlife you head to, because eons, are not eternal. Eternity is just a way to twist the translations of the Bible to imply eternity, when none exists. So if I am to believe the hypothetical to be true, it doesn’t matter because death is the only reality in the end of life AND the afterlife, and I don’t care how irrational or insane I am for choosing so, I’d rather live in the truth of it all than lie to myself to make myself feel better. Thus by default, because death is the reality, and God in religion always represents life, give me death. Then again, the founding fathers of the USA were a little stubborn and a little crazy as well for being so loyal, or stubborn, or militant, or fanatical, or whatever word that properly gets the point here.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on June 12, 2012, 10:42:31 PM
I said if they are sane they will not choose eternal torture.

HAL...Throughout this entire thread you have completely underestimated the stubbornness of the skeptical mind.

I, for one, do not accept your premise that bible god can be proven to exist in the first place. What would it take to prove to you that the entity called “God” in the Bible is real and that the hell his followers describe[1]is real? It would take quite a bit I'm sure.

If you are looking for honesty then I can say that given the very limited scenario you have laid out, it would be nigh impossible for this god to prove to me that both he and his ultimatum are real. Therefor, it becomes an easy choice...for a skeptic. I'd have to call the mother fucker's bluff on pure principal alone. Eternal worship = eternal torture.

Also, I can't help but notice you are very selective in calling out your opponents in this little exercise. I said I would choose hell a couple days ago. Am I not worthy of your admonishments?
 1.  in so many various ways
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 12, 2012, 10:59:38 PM
Yeah, HAL, more internet heroics, LOL. If they were talking to you in person, all you would have to do is burn their arm with a cigarette lighter and watch how fast they move away from the heat, even if they were Buddhist monks who weren't quite ready to set themselves on fire just yet.  ;D
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: sun_king on June 12, 2012, 11:33:55 PM
I will join the rebellion[1] I will be with them, in an iron chariot, armed with an M-61 Vulcan with iron bullets.

IF the Biblegod (any variant) is shown to exist, then the remaining absurdities in the bible comes to play too, with the same properties as described in the book. Satan rages in defiance and as per the bible Satan is way better than god. God is not powerful enough to vanquish Satan, the less evil side has a fair chance against god.

Who else is with the rebels?
 1. Where there is a tyrannical ruler who demands worship, excess tax and maintains formidable torture chambers, there will always be rebels.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 08:14:22 AM
Very easy. I'm not your definition of sane, and I don't care what you believe or what you don't believe. Once again, Buddhist monks on fire anybody?

Maybe the monk is an idiot. Maybe he knows the pain will end one way or another. Maybe the monk isn't a sane person. Maybe he's trying to make a point to others, which isn't an option in the hypothetical. In any case the picture proves nothing, because he's not choosing eternal torture, and I read your whole post and you have yet to answer the question as pertains to yourself.

By the way, how many times have you set yourself on fire? Thought so ...

Quote
Perhaps if you could define the word “sane”, it may give us a better perspective on your views.

Any person not choosing eternal torture if there is a way out of it.

Quote
What my problems with the whole thread is, if the hypothetical “god” is proven true, the question is, which hypothetical god?

...

We need to specifically discuss which hypothetical god of the 38,000 Christian denominations there are.

You don't get to change my hypothetical, and you don't get to discuss which god, sorry. Request denied. Step up to the plate and answer the hypothetical as it is, don't try to clutter the stark choice with myriad ways you can weasel out of answering.

HAL...Throughout this entire thread you have completely underestimated the stubbornness of the skeptical mind.

I, for one, do not accept your premise that bible god can be proven to exist in the first place. What would it take to prove to you that the entity called “God” in the Bible is real and that the hell his followers describe[1]is real?
 1.  in so many various ways

It's a hypothetical thought experiment. It isn't claiming how it's proven true - that's completely beside the point of the thread.

Quote
Also, I can't help but notice you are very selective in calling out your opponents in this little exercise. I said I would choose hell a couple days ago. Am I not worthy of your admonishments?

You "said" you would choose it? Oh, OK. I'm going to say something -

"I choose eternal torture over worshiping god."

There! I said it so now I can do it!

I and other have given reasons that we wouldn't/couldn't choose eternal torture. You have given me no good reason to believe you can make that actual choice. Do you have a believable statement available that would convince me and others you would choose an actual eternal torture, or are you just another internet keyboard hero sitting in his comfy chair that can make grandiose statements of heroics that in no way you would do if this were to become true. Before I believe you you'll have to tell us how your humanity, which will overpower you or any other human in this situation, will not rule the day.

Yeah, HAL, more internet heroics, LOL. If they were talking to you in person, all you would have to do is burn their arm with a cigarette lighter and watch how fast they move away from the heat, even if they were Buddhist monks who weren't quite ready to set themselves on fire just yet.  ;D

It's amazing isn't it? I'll have to collect all these heroics in one place after this thread burns itself out!

and they keep coming -

I will join the rebellion[2] I will be with them, in an iron chariot, armed with an M-61 Vulcan with iron bullets.
 2. Where there is a tyrannical ruler who demands worship, excess tax and maintains formidable torture chambers, there will always be rebels.

No, you can't interject those things into my hypothetical. What is with you people anyway? Do you not understand what a hypothetical thought experiment is? It's a damn good thing you weren't around to discourage Einstein.

Let me try to explain it for your education.

Hypothetical -

"If you could fly to Jupiter which moon would you visit first?"

lotanddaughters: "Oh interesting! I'd like to visit Europa first!"

HAL: "OK, interesting - why Europa first?"

sun_king: "WTF? How are you going to get there! There is no way now to get to Jupiter!"

HAL: "It's just a hypothetical. Can't you try and answer?"

Nam: "What if you staple your foot on the way there - who's going to administer first aid - I mean for the rest of you, I can take it of course."

HAL: "Ugh."

jaybwell32: "Where are the plans for the ship? You have to prove it can be built before I can answer!"

HAL: "It's just a thought experiment ..."

Quote
IF the Biblegod (any variant) is shown to exist, then the remaining absurdities in the bible comes to play too, with the same properties as described in the book. Satan rages in defiance and as per the bible Satan is way better than god. God is not powerful enough to vanquish Satan, the less evil side has a fair chance against god.

How do you know this to be true?

Anyway - it's out of order. Consider the hypothetical as is or don't clutter my thread with off topic sidestepping. Thanks.

Quote
Who else is with the rebels?

LOL.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 08:39:18 AM
After reading everyone's responses to Hal, and skipping over Hal's condescending and insulting comments to everyone who disagrees with him, I'd still choose hell, and I find it rational of me to do so. Actually, i'd find it not only irrational and hypocritical of me not to based on my life now. My views now.

I still choose hell. Would I endure the pain? Most likely not.
Would I choose heaven over hell? Knowing me, and how defiant I am: most likely not.

Now Hal can keep on stating the opposite, and the rest of you can relent to his logic but I'm standing firm, and hypothetically speaking: i'd probably be the only one in hell holding to my stance. :P

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 08:47:21 AM
Yeah, HAL, more internet heroics, LOL. If they were talking to you in person, all you would have to do is burn their arm with a cigarette lighter and watch how fast they move away from the heat, even if they were Buddhist monks who weren't quite ready to set themselves on fire just yet.  ;D

Ifd I were able to show you the scars on my body, from cigar/cigarette burns, a knife wound, a staple gun incident, and the fact I worked in the restaurant business, and was a custodian at Disney for many years[1] and know what soap that burns feels like when it touches, not only your skin but accidentally gets into your eyes (talk about pain); I'm pretty sure, in such regard, I know what "fire" feels like.

Granted, continuously burning your soul for all eternity, I am sure there's no comparison but with your words you make it seem as if there is. Bad luck for you.

-Nam
 1. combined
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: sun_king on June 13, 2012, 08:48:18 AM
HAL, next time try a title like "If ONLY the Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Worship[sic] forever?". You will get the only answer you wanna hear.

I am off to join the rebels.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 08:55:32 AM
I said if they are sane they will not choose eternal torture.

HAL...Throughout this entire thread you have completely underestimated the stubbornness of the skeptical mind.

I, for one, do not accept your premise that bible god can be proven to exist in the first place. What would it take to prove to you that the entity called “God” in the Bible is real and that the hell his followers describe[1]is real? It would take quite a bit I'm sure.

If you are looking for honesty then I can say that given the very limited scenario you have laid out, it would be nigh impossible for this god to prove to me that both he and his ultimatum are real. Therefor, it becomes an easy choice...for a skeptic. I'd have to call the mother fucker's bluff on pure principal alone. Eternal worship = eternal torture.

Also, I can't help but notice you are very selective in calling out your opponents in this little exercise. I said I would choose hell a couple days ago. Am I not worthy of your admonishments?

 1.  in so many various ways

I find it humorous that a person who starts a topic and ignores certain comments/questions posed, gets on the "Watch" list, and/or warned by a moderator but if an Admin/Mod does it: nothing happens.

Just to toss this in, and sorry to interrupt the back and forth:

History shows us that in a lot of instances, torture and mistreatment can cause people to love/worship their torturer.

It's called 'Stockholm Syndrome,' famously identified with kidnap victims who over time come to believe that they love and share the same values as their captors.  Patty Hearst, etc. 

I speculate this is an adaptation in humans that allows us to live under the thumb of the tyrants who typically rule our tribes and nations. 

The point is...if Biblegod were rule, he'd break most of us through living in fear all our lives, and we'd come to believe we loved him. 

Think of Winston Smith in 1984, how in the end he comes to love Big Brother. 

Biblegod is a reality within the minds of many humans.  They love him because they've spent a lifetime being mentally abused by him.

Your logic stands well with those of us who would choose hell, and eternal torture, too. When it'd ask the question if we'd want it to stop, we'd say "no", 'cause we would want it to keep punishing us 'cause we love it[2]

-Nam
 2. the torturer not the act...well, at that point maybe even the act.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 09:26:55 AM
HAL, next time try a title like "If ONLY the Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Worship[sic] forever?". You will get the only answer you wanna hear.

It really doesn't matter what god it is - that's not the concern you'd have at the time.

Quote
I am off to join the rebels.

There is no rebellion - there can't be so that response is meaningless to the hypothetical.

Ifd I were able to show you the scars on my body, from cigar/cigarette burns, a knife wound, a staple gun incident, and the fact I worked in the restaurant business, and was a custodian at Disney for many years and know what soap that burns feels like when it touches, not only your skin but accidentally gets into your eyes (talk about pain); I'm pretty sure, in such regard, I know what "fire" feels like.

You worked at Disney too. Oh wow - now you've really convinced me!

Quote
Granted, continuously burning your soul for all eternity, I am sure there's no comparison but with your words you make it seem as if there is. Bad luck for you.

Blowing it off with words on a keyboard is easy Nam - that's the problem with this hypothetical. Only a few members have taken into account the acuality of this coming true and I respect them for thinking it out. The rest of you unfortunately find it way too easy to type out heroics. Not for a second do I believe you would choose actual eternal torture over worship. Nothing you've said even comes close to conving me that your own humanity would be tossed aside at the chance to get out of eternal torture any way you can. You, of all people, from what I've read over the years, would be the first to save his butt if scenario was to be actually true - not the first to choose eternal torture.

Your logic stands well with those of us who would choose hell, and eternal torture, too. When it'd ask the question if we'd want it to stop, we'd say "no", 'cause we would want it to keep punishing us 'cause we love it - the torturer not the act...well, at that point maybe even the act.

Ah - no it doesn't Nam. It doesn't work that way. It's amazing what you can dream up in order to somehow make us believe you would choose eternal torture. That only works when the torturers use sporadic torture with periods of reflection for the tortured - reward/punishment.

Stockholm syndrome

Quote
In psychology, Stockholm syndrome is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.

Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

In this hypothetical you get eternally tortured - no breaks, no "lack of abuse" and no way to recant. No one on Earth gets tortured for every second of every day forever. FAIL. Massive FAIL. Huge massive embarrassing FAIL.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 10:26:08 AM
Disney is one of the strictest, and anal rententive companies anyone may/have or what not; work for. You do onew tiny little thing that isn't to their standards they'll make you do it over and over again for months on end. And, I worked 3rd shift, it wasn't just cleaning bathrooms and sweeping streets. It was power washing streets, cleaning kitchens, and that meant the whole kitchen: floors, drains, underneath equipment bolted and/or chained to the floor, walls, ceilimgs, vents in the ceiling: and you had a specific amount of time to complete it or they made you do that section over and over again for months on end.

I was an Attraction host at Disney, I even worked briefly in the Entertainment section, and did security for the parades. Those were easy jobs. Hell, i'd even done 1st and 2nd shift custodial work which was easy as hell[1] but 3rd shift wasn't for light weights, and you're not insulting me with such a statement you're insulting those who do such shitty jobs day in and day out. The only reason I left is 'cause they were outsourcing my department and I had no where else to go. So, I had to quit.

Laborwork can be gruesome especially if the company doesn't care about you, or they have to be the best standards imaginable.

You know, your comments have no effect on me anymore; 'cause now I see who Hal truly is: a person who looks down on others, especially those that don't agree with them.



-Nam
 1. no pun intended
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 13, 2012, 10:38:43 AM
Why are you going off on the "I'm doomed to Hell" tangent anyway? I don't get it, are you still worried that this god of the Bible is real? I sense you have some kind of fear about this hypothetical. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, if all atheists are doomed to Hell then how could anyone that was an atheist accept JC? Now you got me going off topic. Arghhh. Stop.

I don't have a fear of going to hell. It's not a tangent, you asked a question with no parameters so I'm forced to use my own parameters. You can't understand my decision if you don't know the information I'm using to base my decision off of.

The hypothetical is the hypothetical. There is no more information to go on than what is presented. It's my hypothetical and it is what it is. If you want to make your own new hypothetical please start a new thread and we'll investigate it there.

Quote
Maybe you should retry the question with more specific parameters and less un answered variables?

No, it's just the way I want it.

Then I find your hypothetical to be unanswerable. We've spent 9 pages discussing parameters that you can't agree to because they now don't matter and weren't part of the OP.

You either choose eternal torture or worship god. That's the stark choice in front of you. If you want to choose eternal torture then go for it, I won't bother you anymore about it.

We can't discuss this further because you dismiss all arguments that don't fit with in your opinion. You didn't set the parameters in the OP to be specific to your opinion of bible god, but 9 pages later we now know that they are. So, I can't answer these questions until we can allow each user to interpret their ideal of the bible god in this thread.

OK I hope you get better.

Thanks, I just need the bible god to make it rain. My allergies are killing me!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 13, 2012, 10:40:02 AM
Stockholm syndrome would kick in during the course of your mortal life.  Your parents would beat you and/or psychologically abuse you in the name of Biblegod, and it would be intermittant, because your parents would be working, and just as you'd love your tryrannical parents, you'd transfer the love to Biblegod, who, because he's real in this hypothetical universe, has press conferences on TV at regular intervals to reinforce all his sick sadistic BS and reinforce the parents who mutilate the genitals of their children and tell their daughters they will be stoned if they commit adultery. 

You'd develope Stockholm in childhood, so you'd already have this confused love for your parents which due to human psychology transfers to Biblegod. 

We know these things to be true, because, except for the part about Biblegod being real and having press conferences, that's how it works in our universe. 

Parents beat and or scare their kids with Biblegod stories, and the love of Biblegod is the love one feels for an intermittently torturing captor. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
Oh, I also love thew fact that you state "facts" but what they actually are are opinions. Like you thinking you know me. You don't know me, you just think you do based on the information you have obtained on this website and your previous website. That's not enough information to come to the conclusion of what I, or anyone for that matter, would do.  You don't know us. You only know, based on what we say here, what information we choose to let you know about us.

See, from your point-of-view I'm a selfish person but you only have that point-of-view because that's what you think I am based on the varying topics over the years.

The same can be said for anyone on here.

You think I'm only a "tough guy", on the internet because you have no idea of how I am off the internet. Yet when I tell you I'm the same, you make it seem as if I'm lying 'cause I'm saying it on the internet. I have a birthday card, by co-workers of mine, that says "Happy Birthday Asshole". And, a lot worse things than that inside it. Best Birthday card ever. If I were able to upload it, and show you, I would. Now, granted that's just one thing, my father hates me, my mother loves me but even she'd agree I'm an asshole, and I am but even though I am an asshole, I'm not selfish.

I created an account on http://allpoetry.com years back, and I include 2 other members in my idea where we'd hold contests and give away not only massive amounts of points but also pay for memberships. See, I was already anonymously buying memberships for some people but some didn't like it (protests against the website) so that's why I created the account so I wouldn't have to run into those people.

I spent on memberships and points to run some of the contests probably $500. Now, that may not seem like a lot of money but for a high school dropout on minimum wage, that is a lot of money.

That's just one of the many things I've done for people on/offline while still holding the reputation of being an asshole. I mean, you know why the account stopped being active? 'Cause I'm an asshole and the owner assumed based on me being an asshole that I was trying to scam people. Which didn't make sense since I was using my money to pay for my portion of the account.  But he assumed since I'm such a prick there must have been something bad happening on my end.

I might not like people in general but that doesn'tmean I don't care about them, in some minuscule way.

You're a selfish person Hal, I'm not.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 11:01:04 AM
Stockholm syndrome would kick in during the course of your mortal life.  Your parents would beat you and/or psychologically abuse you in the name of Biblegod, and it would be intermittant, because your parents would be working, and just as you'd love your tryrannical parents, you'd transfer the love to Biblegod, who, because he's real in this hypothetical universe, has press conferences on TV at regular intervals to reinforce all his sick sadistic BS and reinforce the parents who mutilate the genitals of their children and tell their daughters they will be stoned if they commit adultery. 

You'd develope Stockholm in childhood, so you'd already have this confused love for your parents which due to human psychology transfers to Biblegod. 

We know these things to be true, because, except for the part about Biblegod being real and having press conferences, that's how it works in our universe. 

Parents beat and or scare their kids with Biblegod stories, and the love of Biblegod is the love one feels for an intermittently torturing captor. 

Then how did all of us who are former Biblegod worshippers become atheists? If what you say is true, then none of should be atheists and we're still in love with Biblegod, no?

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: gonegolfing on June 13, 2012, 11:15:30 AM

Congratulations are in order to all those atheists who will without a doubt wisely and unselfishly choose to be on the side of insincere worship if the time ever comes. Courage and toughness if I've ever seen it !

If so, then you've also provided a solid argument that should convince yourselves--that your atheist position is actually being held in vain at the moment and that it's best to stop this hopeless nonbelief charade and serve a god now to be safe.

Since god cannot be disproved, perhaps it exists, so then why not go ahead and place your bet ?


It always puzzling and comical to watch a silly hypothetical debate between people of the same persuasion--over an idea that they all believe to be a nonstarter in the first place.

Makeup with a nice Internet family hug everyone.

 ;)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 11:16:06 AM
I don't have a fear of going to hell. It's not a tangent, you asked a question with no parameters so I'm forced to use my own parameters. You can't understand my decision if you don't know the information I'm using to base my decision off of.

No, I gave you the parameters - it has two parameters - worship god or go to eternal torture. Inserting more parameters would make it your own hypothetical. Do you want to start another thread with your own hypothetical?

Quote
Maybe you should retry the question with more specific parameters and less un answered variables?

No, it's just the way I want it. Two parameters.

Quote
Then I find your hypothetical to be unanswerable. We've spent 9 pages discussing parameters that you can't agree to because they now don't matter and weren't part of the OP.

Yes, and on those 9 pages some people have understood the consequences and have answered honestly taking into account their own humanity. I can't agree to parameters that aren't in my hypothetical. If you want to start your own please do.

Quote
We can't discuss this further because you dismiss all arguments that don't fit with in your opinion. You didn't set the parameters in the OP to be specific to your opinion of bible god, but 9 pages later we now know that they are. So, I can't answer these questions until we can allow each user to interpret their ideal of the bible god in this thread.

We? Who is "we". Oh, you mean the people who want to adjust the hypothetical to suit themselves, so they can design it such that they can answer it a certain way? Request denied. The only consideration is whether you would choose eternal torture or worship god. That's all you have to go on. It's enough for many people to have made an honest answer because they realize, in this hypothetical, the overriding issue is their own humanity in the face of a deity that can torture them for eternity.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: sun_king on June 13, 2012, 11:25:05 AM

Congratulations are in order to all those atheists who will without a doubt wisely and unselfishly choose to be on the side of insincere worship if the time ever comes. Courage and toughness if I've ever seen it !


One of the problems with hypothetical questions... we don't have a choice. There is only one correct answer. Here is Dr. Sheldon Cooper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYMmbHik08
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 13, 2012, 11:28:06 AM
Then how did all of us who are former Biblegod worshippers become atheists? If what you say is true, then none of should be atheists and we're still in love with Biblegod, no?

I'd bet most of us started down the path toward disbelief once we stopped going to church every week. 

You start to get some distance from you captor, then the syndrome weakens. 

Otherwise Patty Hearst would have stayed SLA for the rest of her life. 

This is why cults want daily contact with members, and why mainstream religions want weekly or more attendance. 

Contact with other ideas, belief systems, also weakens the control.  A lot of people become atheists in college, once they start getting exposed to other ways of thinking. 

SLA didn't let Patty Hearst roam free 6 days a week and only make her robs banks 1 day per week.  They kept her under control 24/7. 

But in the hypothetical syndrome proposed, Biblegod is verifiably real.  So alternative ways of thinking would be marginalized, if they existed at all. 

You'd be stuck in Biblegod's world all the time, with no exposure to other realities.  It would be like living in Salt Lake City. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 11:32:10 AM
One of the problems with hypothetical questions... we don't have a choice. There is only one correct answer.

Hypothetically, if you could magically create a double-dip ice cream cone for yourself right now, chocolate and vanilla, which flavor would you have on top?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 11:37:38 AM
Flapdoodle64,

How about the atheists who are former Biblethumpers who went to church regularly, even after their parents stopped?[1] I mean, iwe were brainwashed, no? So, how'd we get away?

It doesn't make sense to me, with your scenario. Sorry.

-Nam
 1. such as myself
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 13, 2012, 01:00:40 PM
HAL,

You have set parameters several times during this thread after the OP was made. To help substantiate your opinion. But you don't let anyone else do the same thing.

I don't want to make my own hypothetical nor do I think there should be a new one. It would be redundancy and after my day at work today I've had all the redundancy I can handle I still have to do the same thing 20 more times before the day is over.

So because we can't define the biblegod, because you believe that is irrelevant to the OP, how precisely is anyone to answer your question unless they have the exact same SPAG God as your biblegod?

I for the life me don't know how we can progress any further with these limitations. I have thoroughly and redundantly shared how I come to my conclusion and you have thoroughly a redundantly ignored it or rejected it.

We are at an impasse. I feel as though if this conversation were IRL we would be able to clarify things and eventually come to a conclusion to this conversation. But as it stands now I don't think we can progress any further.

I fear we are miscommunicating some where or but I have no idea where.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 13, 2012, 01:08:12 PM
HAL,

I'm just wondering can you smell the color nine?

Religious reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip2WgqBHYqM&feature=related

I really do request a serious answer. Please allow me this brief derail so I can attempt to clear up a misunderstanding I think we have.




Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 13, 2012, 01:15:20 PM
Nam: Reread my previous 2 posts.

Now, in our world, with zero evidence to support Biblegod, most people keep believing in him, despite books, college, other atheists etc.  This shows how well Mind Control Techniques/Stockholm Syndrome work. 

Now, in the hypothetical world where Biblegod is real, there must be evidence in him because he is real. 

Believing in Biblegod would be like believing in gravity. 

So if this real god and his proxies spend your entire life using cult mind control techniques such as alternating abuse with non-abuse, and if all the reliable evidence is that this god exists, you are going to believe in him, and the odds are you will love him, Stockholm style. 

There will always be exceptions here and there.  But most people will be frightened or psychologically abused into loving biblegod.  That's how humans adapt to life under a tyrant with no hope of escape. 

The US military works with the assumption that everyone has a breaking point, given enough time and a creative approach to indoctrination.  I am not happy about these facts. I don't advocate in favor of tyranny.  But tyranny has been in existence all of human history, it is an advanced and proven art form.  Tyrants use oppression and abuse because it works. 

This whole thread illustrates to me a reason why atheism is better than theism: theists are essentially people terrorized or psychologically abused into loving a tyrant god. 

But I do believe that in an environment that 95% supports the belief, such as in our world 95% of the evidence supports the existence of gravity, most of us would eventually succumb and convince ourself that we love biblegod, or at least fake it. 

Exactly why you fell out of belief, I don't know.  But you fell out in a world where there are books, other atheists, universities, etc.  A world where science and history don't support the Bible. 

In a meta sense, this thread illustrates a major silliness of religion.  The willingness of people to waste huge amounts of time arguing over opposing impossibilities.   Myself included.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 01:20:01 PM
Let me try to explain how a hypothetical works.

You are to consider that it really happened - that Biblegod was proven true.

Now you are standing there and you have two options - worship it or take eternal torture. There is no "I don't have enough information". There is no "This isn't fair". There is no "I can't answer the question." That's what you have to imagine is happening. That's the hypothetical. A hypothetical can be any scenario anyone can imagine.

You are to consider it a real situation and you have two choices. Either you worship the thing or not, and if not you get eternal torture.

Not answering because you don't have enough information means you go to Hell.

Complaining to it means you go to Hell.

Being arrogant to it means you know what.

Asking it to explain what god it is means you get Hell.

^^^ No, those aren't more parameters, they are things you are wanting to know that you are dis-allowed in the hypothetical. All you get to know is the two choices. That's why there are only two parameters.

If the problem is too hard for you standing there, with only those two choices, and you refuse to answer, you get eternal torture.

You know, it almost seems like some of you have never seen a hypothetical question before. It's almost more interesting how you react to hypotheticals than the actual answer you are giving.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2012, 02:05:48 PM
You forgot the part where all of those who disagree with you, are wrong, and that you know us better than we know ourselves. You also forgot, per rules of the site, where if you're going to state something as fact without the evidence to back it up, it is still just your opinion though you still clearly state it as fact.

We all answered your OP, our answers didn't satisfy you, so you broadened the OP to be more in-line with what you believe you know what every person will do without any evidence to back that up, and when we respond to that, you then insult us for holding our positions.

I've been told to stop responding, and heard rumors that people respect you less based on some of the things you've stated here.

And, you know what: I'm going to. Not because they are telling me to but because they, minus Kimberly, and a few others, are afraid of you because you're an Administrator, and they're not.

It's been suggested that I report you. To who? You're an Administrator.

This topic should've been in the Bottomless Pit pages ago, and if anyone else started it: it would be.

Have fun trying to convince yourself that all what I just stated is untrue.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: naemhni on June 13, 2012, 02:13:02 PM
This topic should've been in the Bottomless Pit pages ago, and if anyone else started it: it would be.

Actually, I did try to move it to the Pit yesterday, but because of this nasty head cold I have, I screwed up the move, and it ended up getting moved back to GRD.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 02:14:39 PM
This topic should've been in the Bottomless Pit pages ago, and if anyone else started it: it would be.

Actually, I did try to move it to the Pit yesterday, but because of this nasty head cold I have, I screwed up the move, and it ended up getting moved back to GRD.

Go ahead and move it there, might as well.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 13, 2012, 02:15:13 PM
Nice [wiki]Kobayashi Maru[/wiki] scenario, HAL, since I didn't say it before.

For those who don't know Star Trek, this is a common reference to a no-win scenario.  No matter what you do, it's a bad choice.  In this case, if you do anything but agree to worship, you go straight to hell and you can't ever get out.  If you do choose to worship, you betray your principles, but you live forever.  Neither is exactly palatable.  So the choice is, keep your principles but suffer unending torment, or abandon your principles but live forever in comfort.

As for me, I don't know what I would choose.  It'd be easy to assume that I'd be courageous and refuse to surrender my principles, but I can't know that until I'm actually faced with this situation.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Hatter23 on June 13, 2012, 02:51:06 PM

Actually, I did try to move it to the Pit yesterday, but because of this nasty head cold I have, I screwed up the move, and it ended up getting moved back to GRD.

Go ahead and move it there, might as well.

What are you saying it is better to be an intenet tough guy and be sent to the bottomless pit? ;)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 02:52:58 PM
There is no person on this forum, in my opinion, that has demonstrated any capacity to toss aside one of the most fundamental of our instincts - self preservation as regards this scenario (not other things you have done in your life). Not one person has shown how they would or could even come close to doing that in this scenario. If that upsets you so be it. For many, many real scenarios (not hypothetical) that I could put before you, much less traumatic, you would choose self-preservation over all else. In some actual cases some people would give up their lives and toss aside that instinct, but for various reasons they are doing that to achieve a result.

The hypothetical scenario presented would be the greatest worldview altering, mind blowing event you could possibly imagine and you would not treat it as flippantly as some of you are doing here. Frankly you (I) would be at at once scared, unsure, cowering, and looking for any way to avoid the nasty alternative. I do not believe any person here in the face of a reality like this, would do any different. The actual reality of this scenario is not sinking in for most of you.

In my opinion, it is a fact that you would act completely different than your typed out heroic stands/reactions in this thread. The exceptions are if you are now insane, or happen to go temporarily insane, such that you choose eternal torture. Self preservation and the knowledge that you cannot achieve a result for any purpose by choosing eternal torture, and that unimaginable pain also awaits, will prevent you from choosing eternal torture. I believe this is a fact backed up by the study of human nature.

So my stance has not altered in the least.

Quote
Self-preservation is behavior that ensures the survival of an organism.[1] It is universal among living organisms.[citation needed] Pain and fear are parts of this mechanism. Pain motivates the individual to withdraw from damaging situations, to protect a damaged body part while it heals, and to avoid similar experiences in the future.[2]

Most pain resolves promptly once the painful stimulus is removed and the body has healed, but sometimes pain persists despite removal of the stimulus and apparent healing of the body; and sometimes pain arises in the absence of any detectable stimulus, damage or disease.[3]

Fear causes the organism to seek safety and may cause a release of adrenaline[4][5], which has the effect of increased strength and heightened senses such as hearing, smell, and sight. Self-preservation may also be interpreted figuratively; in regard to the coping mechanisms one needs to prevent emotional trauma from distorting the mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 13, 2012, 03:11:26 PM
It's called 'Stockholm Syndrome,'

I how you feel, HAL! You can get a real education in this thread! You are in agony for eternity and can't think about nothing but the pain, and somehow your love grows for your tormentor! I concede the point! Sign me up! ;D
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 13, 2012, 03:19:26 PM
You know, it almost seems like some of you have never seen a hypothetical question before. It's almost more interesting how you react to hypotheticals than the actual answer you are giving.

I agree for some reason this silly guy named HAL keeps offering two options but then dismissing anyone who picks the the option he opposes. Seems like the person creating the hypothetical would get that, no?  ;)

I played your game, by your rules, and picked my option. All you can do now is tell me why you disagree with my decision. My whole point for the past 9 pages has been that you can't tell someone else what option they will pick.

You can presume.
You can guesstimate.
You can calculate.
You can assume. (We all know what leads to :P )
You can formulate.
You can even make splendid arguments to the contrary.

But you can't smell the color nine HAL.[1]
 1. (You ignored that question, but my point was, is and will be, that you can't know.)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 13, 2012, 03:35:26 PM
And, you know what: I'm going to. Not because they are telling me to but because they, minus Kimberly, and a few others, are afraid of you because you're an Administrator, and they're not.

For the record, I'm not afraid of HAL because he's an admin. I don't think he has abused any powers, or broken any rules. I think he's posting as a member of this forum and should be treated just like anyone else. He doesn't deserve special treatment just because he's an admin. Anyone who is afraid to express their opinions about a silly hypothetical just because the person presenting the argument is a forum admin should give it try before gossiping.

Also for the record, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. It's interesting and entertaining.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 03:36:50 PM
I agree for some reason this silly guy named HAL keeps offering two options but then dismissing anyone who picks the the option he opposes. Seems like the person creating the hypothetical would get that, no?

I played your game, by your rules, and picked my option. All you can do now is tell me why you disagree with my decision. My whole point for the past 9 pages has been that you can't tell someone else what option they will pick.

You can pick the option you want. Eternal torture right? You can pick it, I already said how that could happen. I haven't heard you agree to that condition yet. If you are insane or go temporarily insane. If you agree that choosing eternal torture is tantamount to temporary insanity (I do not believe you are insane now) then we don't have a disagreement at all. I might even agree that it amounts to a dangerously irrational state of mind to choose eternal torture. But I always said there was a way someone might pick eternal torture.

Quote
But you can't smell the color nine HAL.[1]
 1. (You ignored that question, but my point was, is and will be, that you can't know.)

Sorry I got busy

No I can't smell the color nine.

Back to you -

Can you ride along with a beam of light?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 13, 2012, 03:52:15 PM
And like I say, to concede that I WOULD bow down to that character makes damn near everything I've said moot.  So this may well be it for me here.

Actually - me too.

I'm really back to the point of total burnout anyway, and lately I've seen little point to the place other than entertainment. That's why I've not been better behaved lately, I just don't seem to care anymore. So I am considering the same thing you are.

How's about them apples!  :o
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 13, 2012, 04:04:27 PM
When it comes to reality (if this Heaven and Hell were true) who here would choose to go to Hell and burn forever?

I wouldn't.

You know what's funny, HAL? If I saw you pop this question in a thread without the "I wouldn't" that follows, I would take it as a rhetorical question.

If you added the "I wouldn't", I would take the total post as a question and obvious answer to prove a simple point.

If, out of the blue(not inspired by a post in another thread), you started this thread with the current title in place and the above was your OP, I definitely wouldn't bookmark it. I would think it was extremely stupid and uninteresting. But I would be wrong. The very first responder says it is a difficult question. And just when you thought there was only a rare idiot in the bunch, the suprises keep popping out. It's like, instead of The Atheist Corner, we have a secret Let's All Fuck With HAL Corner. I admit that I volunteered to play the role of "rational with HAL" just to keep it a tad realistic. ;D
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 13, 2012, 04:05:38 PM
You can pick the option you want. Eternal torture right? You can pick it, I already said how that could happen. I haven't heard you agree to that condition yet. If you are insane or go temporarily insane. If you agree that choosing eternal torture is tantamount to temporary insanity (I do not believe you are insane now) then we don't have a disagreement at all. I might even agree that it amounts to a dangerously irrational state of mind to choose eternal torture. But I always said there was a way someone might pick eternal torture.

You can call it insanity if you want. I have no problem with your judgement, I disagree with it but I think it's a fair assessment. I think where the problem started is when you started telling people how they would act, respond, etc.

Can you ride along with a beam of light?

In due time, in due time my friend.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 13, 2012, 04:08:24 PM
And like I say, to concede that I WOULD bow down to that character makes damn near everything I've said moot.  So this may well be it for me here.

Actually - me too.

I'm really back to the point of total burnout anyway, and lately I've seen little point to the place other than entertainment. That's why I've not been better behaved lately, I just don't seem to care anymore. So I am considering the same thing you are.

How's about them apples!  :o

You should get pregnant, have your home forum taken away from you, and go on a hiatus for almost a year. It does wonders.  :laugh:
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: sun_king on June 13, 2012, 09:39:49 PM
Hypothetically, if you could magically create a double-dip ice cream cone for yourself right now, chocolate and vanilla, which flavor would you have on top?

Vanilla.

This scenario is well defined. I have one magical power, to create a double-dip ice cream for myself. I have two choices, vanilla and cocolate. The question is clear, which one would I choose. If I say strawberry, you have every right to say that it is not relevant. That is the benefit of defining the scenario clearly. Your OP was wide open for any interpretation and most of your efforts were closing the lanes.

You can bring in Self-Preservation into this. But then it is a choice of the individual and you have no authority in deciding what we would choose. Self preservation should have made Leonidas go back, Kamikaze pilots wouldn't have made their final dives and Apollo Creed wouldnt have gone for the second round against Ivan Drago.

And yes, we can ride along a beam of light! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_riding)

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: learnin on June 13, 2012, 11:51:14 PM
There's something that's troubling to me after partaking in  this discussion.  I've come a long way from my religious belief held for over 40 adult years.  I wouldn't say I'm an atheist (I still can't get my mind around the existence of a  beating human heart without some kind of maker)  but I've rejected much of what I previously believed.    I read here and discuss to learn and fine tune my position.

What bothers me about this discussion.  From what I've read on this forum, most atheists say they would believe in a god if someone could present real evidence.  After reading this discussion, I wonder if many atheist would accept evidence of the supernatural if it was shown?  Let me explain.

Forget the OP and the hypotheticals presented.  I'll bring it down to real life with only one hypothetical.  You don't become unconscious or die from the torture.

Suppose a murdering dictator fires up a red hot griddle.  He gives you two choices. 

1.  You bow down to me and tell me I'm great

or:

2.  I place your naked body on this red hot griddle.

No human being would last 2 minutes burning on this griddle.  I'm telling you straight away...Within seconds, every human being would say:  "Stop the burning, I'll do as you say."

A human being can only tolerate a certain amount of pain and trauma and this is why the brain stops working and shuts down.  If this shut down mechanism does not shut down, every human being would succumb to the pain.

Why am I troubled?  Because we still have posters, here, who are trying to get around the obvious.  This troubles me because I wonder how many would really accept evidence of the supernatural if it were given?  And then I'm taken back to the words of Jesus when Dives asked if he could warn his family about hell:
"They wouldn't believe if even the dead came back".

Before you reply, please understand I'm not saying this proves Jesus was correct.  I'm simply saying that, for someone who is here with a completely open mind, it's troubling to see some atheists running from something which is a certain fact.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Samothec on June 14, 2012, 12:31:26 AM
The question is flawed. As is most of the follow up. I have not read all posts as it got very annoying.

How does Biblegod show himself to exist? Does he answer all beneficial prayers and insure everyone has food and water and their health is suddenly perfect? Or does he strike down those he finds most offensive?
Which Biblegod is it? The loving one or the wrathful one?

HAL, your guesses as to how people would react are flawed in a similar manner. You are not considering that many people who responded have hinted (or stated) that they are expecting the wrathful Biblegod which means heaven is going to be as bad as if not worse than hell. With that expectation of course they choose hell. You would too.

If the loving one showed up then yes, most would choose heaven.

You assume the loving one appears so you assume all will choose heaven and assume any other answer is unrealistic. You have obviously not considered the alternative. You should do so then reread what others have written.


Another problem with the question is that we don't get a choice. When Biblegod appears he judges us and we go where he puts us.


If I had a choice, I'd choose my heaven in exchange for worship assuming Biblegod proved himself as Creator rather than just a powerful alien being. No, I won't be saying what my heaven would entail.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 06:04:13 AM
The question is flawed. As is most of the follow up. I have not read all posts as it got very annoying.

No, it's a hypothetical - mine.

It's exactly what I want.

Quote
How does Biblegod show himself to exist? Does he answer all beneficial prayers and insure everyone has food and water and their health is suddenly perfect? Or does he strike down those he finds most offensive?
Which Biblegod is it? The loving one or the wrathful one?

Irrelevant to the hypothetical.

Quote
HAL, your guesses as to how people would react are flawed in a similar manner. You are not considering that many people who responded have hinted (or stated) that they are expecting the wrathful Biblegod which means heaven is going to be as bad as if not worse than hell. With that expectation of course they choose hell. You would too.

Irrelevant. They only have the two choices as written, that's all they can go on.

Quote
If the loving one showed up then yes, most would choose heaven.

All they can go on is what's in the hypothetical and the information contained there. If it's too difficult a choice for you then don't attempt to answer it as is.

Quote
You assume the loving one appears so you assume all will choose heaven and assume any other answer is unrealistic. You have obviously not considered the alternative. You should do so then reread what others have written.

I do not believe any of the members who say they will choose eternal torture, unless they are insane. Are they insane?


Quote
Another problem with the question is that we don't get a choice. When Biblegod appears he judges us and we go where he puts us.

There is no problem with the hypothetical. It's perfect for it's purpose.

Quote
If I had a choice, I'd choose my heaven in exchange for worship assuming Biblegod proved himself as Creator rather than just a powerful alien being. No, I won't be saying what my heaven would entail.

Irrelevant - there is no more information you can go on in my hypothetical. Feel free to write your own in another thread.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 06:06:12 AM
What bothers me about this discussion.  From what I've read on this forum, most atheists say they would believe in a god if someone could present real evidence.  After reading this discussion, I wonder if many atheist would accept evidence of the supernatural if it was shown?  Let me explain.

Forget the OP and the hypotheticals presented.  I'll bring it down to real life with only one hypothetical.  You don't become unconscious or die from the torture.

Suppose a murdering dictator fires up a red hot griddle.  He gives you two choices. 

1.  You bow down to me and tell me I'm great

or:

2.  I place your naked body on this red hot griddle.

No human being would last 2 minutes burning on this griddle.  I'm telling you straight away...Within seconds, every human being would say:  "Stop the burning, I'll do as you say."

A human being can only tolerate a certain amount of pain and trauma and this is why the brain stops working and shuts down.  If this shut down mechanism does not shut down, every human being would succumb to the pain.

Exactly. Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 06:17:06 AM
Hypothetically, if you could magically create a double-dip ice cream cone for yourself right now, chocolate and vanilla, which flavor would you have on top?

Vanilla.

This scenario is well defined. I have one magical power, to create a double-dip ice cream for myself. I have two choices, vanilla and cocolate. The question is clear, which one would I choose. If I say strawberry, you have every right to say that it is not relevant. That is the benefit of defining the scenario clearly. Your OP was wide open for any interpretation and most of your efforts were closing the lanes.

No, you have a clear choice. The only information you have is all I want to give you in the hypothetical. You notice how you didn't complain about "magically"? That shows me you understand what a hypothetical is. You simply don't like my hypothetical because you are like the others - you believe, because you are now an atheist, you believe you would do anything to avoid worshiping a god, so you wiggle and complain and ask for more "information" and quibble and avoid answering truthfully in front of your peers and do anything you have to in front of your keyboard, even say you would go to hell rather than do what you know you would do to avoid it - worship your little ass off to get out of eternal torture.

If you don't like the choices given then you have another choice - don't attempt an answer.

Quote
And yes, we can ride along a beam of light! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_riding)

No, your person can't ride a beam of light. That link is totally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. I'll get back to that later because it illustrates how hypotheticals can be used. Hypotheticals that otherwise are impossible to set up in reality.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: sun_king on June 14, 2012, 10:28:44 AM

No, you have a clear choice. The only information you have is all I want to give you in the hypothetical. You notice how you didn't complain about "magically"? That shows me you understand what a hypothetical is. You simply don't like my hypothetical because you are like the others - you believe, because you are now an atheist, you believe you would do anything to avoid worshiping a god, so you wiggle and complain and ask for more "information" and quibble and avoid answering truthfully in front of your peers and do anything you have to in front of your keyboard, even say you would go to hell rather than do what you know you would do to avoid it - worship your little ass off to get out of eternal torture.
Feeling better that you told me what I will do? I guess that was the intent of the thread, to be comforted by declaring that everyone will follow your lead and be on knees when the big boss takes charge. You just cannot accept that anyone else will take a stance that you wouldn't? Ohh, I use a keyboard, so I have to Worship... Wonderful reasoning.

HAL, you do not know me. I dont need to explain why I made that statement, right?
Quote
If you don't like the choices given then you have another choice - don't attempt an answer.
Sure your highness, its your precious toy, your rules. Was just curious why you bother to ask everyone when you knew what everyone would do. My mistake, apologies, won't repeat. And please dont bother to type a reply for this either, I may choose not to answer. Oh! you already know that...
Quote
No, your person can't ride a beam of light. That link is totally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. I'll get back to that later because it illustrates how hypotheticals can be used. Hypotheticals that otherwise are impossible to set up in reality.
I would have said it was mentioned in a lighter sense, but you already know what I will be saying, after all I am having a keyboard.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 12:34:03 PM
Feeling better that you told me what I will do? I guess that was the intent of the thread, to be comforted by declaring that everyone will follow your lead and be on knees when the big boss takes charge. You just cannot accept that anyone else will take a stance that you wouldn't? Ohh, I use a keyboard, so I have to Worship... Wonderful reasoning.

HAL, you do not know me. I dont need to explain why I made that statement, right?

I know enough to know what you will do, unless you haven't told me you are insane.

Are you human?: Y

Are you insane? I'll assume for the time being - no.

If these two items are true you would not choose eternal torture.

The reason you proclaim your heroic and brazen stance is because you are not taking the hypothetical seriously and/or you are embarrassed, because you are an atheist now, to admit that you would worship god to get out of torture. Any sane person will do this - yes I believe that's a fact. If you don't like that then I'll take note of it, but it doesn't change my mind as to why you are typing out the statements that you are.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 14, 2012, 03:28:36 PM
There's something that's troubling to me after partaking in  this discussion.  I've come a long way from my religious belief held for over 40 adult years.  I wouldn't say I'm an atheist (I still can't get my mind around the existence of a  beating human heart without some kind of maker)  but I've rejected much of what I previously believed.    I read here and discuss to learn and fine tune my position.

What bothers me about this discussion.  From what I've read on this forum, most atheists say they would believe in a god if someone could present real evidence.  After reading this discussion, I wonder if many atheist would accept evidence of the supernatural if it was shown?  Let me explain.

Forget the OP and the hypotheticals presented.  I'll bring it down to real life with only one hypothetical.  You don't become unconscious or die from the torture.

Suppose a murdering dictator fires up a red hot griddle.  He gives you two choices. 

1.  You bow down to me and tell me I'm great

or:

2.  I place your naked body on this red hot griddle.

No human being would last 2 minutes burning on this griddle.  I'm telling you straight away...Within seconds, every human being would say:  "Stop the burning, I'll do as you say."

A human being can only tolerate a certain amount of pain and trauma and this is why the brain stops working and shuts down.  If this shut down mechanism does not shut down, every human being would succumb to the pain.

Why am I troubled?  Because we still have posters, here, who are trying to get around the obvious.  This troubles me because I wonder how many would really accept evidence of the supernatural if it were given?  And then I'm taken back to the words of Jesus when Dives asked if he could warn his family about hell:
"They wouldn't believe if even the dead came back".

Before you reply, please understand I'm not saying this proves Jesus was correct.  I'm simply saying that, for someone who is here with a completely open mind, it's troubling to see some atheists running from something which is a certain fact.

I know I stated I wouldn't respond anymore but this is exactly what Hal did: he asked a question, and then stated what would happen, and in doing so answered the question for everyone. You're doing the same thing.

1. Ask the question.
2. Let others respond.

You're doing that. You're answering for them based on the description of the torture. You think the person who would choose the torture and not give in to such kissing ass instead doesn't know what the torture may entail?

It's irrelevant what it entails: I think they'd get the gist of it by the little snippet given. Oh, and to answer the question: I choose the torture. I don't kiss ass, unless it's from the girl I'm currently into, and she says it's okay for me to do so but even then...

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Samothec on June 14, 2012, 03:29:14 PM
I know enough to know what you will do, unless you haven't told me you are insane.
Are you human?: Y
Are you insane? I'll assume for the time being - no.
If these two items are true you would not choose eternal torture.

Again you proceed from a flawed origin. You clearly do not understand the depths of guilt, lack of self-esteem, and other negative human conditions that cause people to seek out self-destructive situations. One need not be insane to seek pain and suffering, one only needs to already be tortured by one's own mind and believe that you deserve it.

You insistance that everyone will do as you believe borders on preaching IMO. It might be good for you to take a step back - stop reading and posting in this thread for a day then start at the begining looking at it as if someone else wrote it. I suspect you will be embarassed by your behavior in this thread.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 14, 2012, 03:44:33 PM
Agree you can't predict what 100% of people would do, and there's a certain pointlessness to Hal's arguing it out so long...

Yet I think some people might be deliberately yanking on him, too.

Of course, that't the nature of the net.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 04:34:44 PM
Oh, and to answer the question: I choose the torture. I don't kiss ass, unless it's from the girl I'm currently into,

You just admitted you can and will kiss ass under the right conditions, so again, IMHO your just an incessant bullshit artist who got loose on the forum. Welcome to the Bottomless Pit. Have a cigar.

You clearly do not understand the depths of guilt, lack of self-esteem, and other negative human conditions that cause people to seek out self-destructive situations. One need not be insane to seek pain and suffering, one only needs to already be tortured by one's own mind and believe that you deserve it.

That's just as easily termed insanity also. As the definition below says, not all acts like that are, but I think I'm on solid ground calling it at least temporary insanity. Anyone confronting the reality of a deity especially atheists, and choosing to engage an eternity of torture as a method of self-destruction could very easily be looked at as at least temporary insanity, and I've said all along that is a way that I agreed some people could choose eternal torture. I think I'm on solid ground here.

Quote
Insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others, though not all such acts are considered insanity. In modern usage insanity is most commonly encountered as an informal unscientific term denoting mental instability, or in the narrow legal context of the insanity defense. In the medical profession the term is now avoided in favor of diagnoses of specific mental disorders; the presence of delusions or hallucinations is broadly referred to as psychosis.[1] When discussing mental illness in general terms, "psychopathology" is considered a preferred descriptor.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity

Quote
You insistance that everyone will do as you believe borders on preaching IMO. It might be good for you to take a step back - stop reading and posting in this thread for a day then start at the begining looking at it as if someone else wrote it. I suspect you will be embarassed by your behavior in this thread.

You are entitled to your opinon, but I disagree that I'd be wrong if this were to actually occur.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 04:38:33 PM
Yet I think some people might be deliberately yanking on him, too.

Of course, that't the nature of the net.

Oh no, ya think! It's always been fun to attack authority figures, Hell I do it all the time.

Let me try to make this as dirt fucking simple as I can. This doesn't effectively change the original hypothetical[1] but perhaps it will let you think about it more clearly.

A Hypothetical

Humanity, including you, accepts that Biblegod has been proven to exist. Suddenly find yourself in a room with two buttons. The sign says -

"Press the red button to worship god. Press the blue button to accept eternal torture.

You have 5 minutes to press a button - after 5 minutes and not having pressed a button, the system defaults to a press of the blue button.

Your choice is irrevocable.

You now have 5 minutes left"

That's all you get. That's all the information you have in the hypothetical. Complaining like you all are doing, sidestepping, wriggling, asking to have information that isn't coming, proclaiming how many cigars you have burned into your skin, making brazen statements about some impossible grandstanding is not going to get you anywhere. There you sit and there you are faced with the buttons and no more information. There is nobody to ask a question of. This is the hypothetical in it's entirety.

Press your button.
 1. 
If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, i'd be happy to burn foever (sic) in Hell.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Zankuu on June 14, 2012, 04:46:49 PM
*reluctantly presses the blue button*

On the brighter side, maybe I'll eventually compartmentalize the self-loathing and hatred I'll have for my weakness after pressing it.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 14, 2012, 04:52:13 PM
I'd be curious to see a poll posted. Red or Blue; since it's anonymous those who have been afraid to speak can cast their vote and we can see how many of us are "insane".
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 04:54:15 PM
I'd be curious to see a poll posted. Red or Blue; since it's anonymous those who have been afraid to speak can cast their vote and we can see how many of us are "insane".

Good idea. Do you want to start the poll. I'll comment in the thread but I promise in your thread I'll be well behaved! Let's see what happens.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 14, 2012, 05:06:51 PM
I'd be curious to see a poll posted. Red or Blue; since it's anonymous those who have been afraid to speak can cast their vote and we can see how many of us are "insane".

Good idea. Do you want to start the poll. I'll comment in the thread but I promise in your thread I'll be well behaved! Let's see what happens.

Ok BRB
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 14, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
POLL (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23015.msg513665.html#msg513665)

If a moderator locks the thread can people still cast votes? I really don't think we need two threads of people discussing this.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 14, 2012, 05:22:26 PM
I am in the category that would push the red button of course.  And I think most people would do likewise. 

The problem with this scenario is the the self that is able to push the button may not be able to concieve of eternal torture, may minimize the expected effects, may be unable to imagine the consequences.  Yet, like an 18 year old, may also THINK he can imagine the consequences and may THINK he knows what he is doing. 

Note that in our society, we let people age 17 and above join the armed forces, which means they are effectively forfieting many of their constitutional rights...depending on circumstances, possibly for the rest of their lives!  (Due to human brain development, we shouldn't let someone to forfiet basic rights until they are at least 21 or in many cases, age 25.  Note that as people age past 18, the rate at which they join the military starts to decrease...)

Yet every year, enough young people are willing to forfiet their rights that our armed forces are sufficient to maintain a permanent war.  Despite the widespread knowledge of abominable conditions in the US war zones, record high troop suicides, poor care from the VA, etc. 

The point is this: the moment of decision is prior to the time frame of the consequences.  The self who makes the choice is not the same as the self would be after the self has been tortured a bit.  And after the torture begins, it's too late, because the irrevocable decision has been made. 

We can predict that most people would choose red, and we can predict that of those opting for torture, since we're talking eternity, 100% would eventually regret the decision and beg for death or mercy.  But given human nature, there could easily be some who opt for torture. 

Some might opt for torture, thinking that by doing so, they'd be yanking Biblegod's chain. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 14, 2012, 05:27:40 PM
Here's another way to look at this.  No matter which option people picked, they'd end up being royally dissatisfied with it before long.  I'd like to remind people of that Twilight Zone episode, a nice place to visit, where someone passed on to the afterlife and got all of his wishes granted no matter what they were.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 05:35:44 PM
Good analysis flapdoodle. Very well written.

Some might opt for torture, thinking that by doing so, they'd be yanking Biblegod's chain.

That's sounds like Nam's approach, and while beforehand it sounds like you're a kick-ass son of a bitch god-chain-yanking hero figure, he's going to quickly realize it wasn't worth it if he did it. But that's just his internet persona, I am still of the opinion that he'd be smarter than to attempt such a foolish act in reality.

But like the last two posts, good insight. I will try to be more forgiving of other's opinions from now on also. That's my attempt to keep the discussion going.

Thank you.

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: OnlyClarity on June 14, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
That's sounds like Nam's approach, and while beforehand it sounds like you're a kick-ass son of a bitch god-chain-yanking hero figure, he's going to quickly realize it wasn't worth it if he did it. But that's just his internet persona, I am still of the opinion that he'd be smarter than to attempt such a foolish act in reality.

But like the last two posts, good insight. I will try to be more forgiving of other's opinions from now on also. That's my attempt to keep the discussion going.

Thank you.

I respectfully disagree that we can know for sure each person's motives for why they make their choice of eternal torture.  While it may seem to you HAL/others that Nam wants to be perceived as an "internet tough guy", I can at least speak for myself and inform you that it is the last thing I attempted to come across as.  You are free to think anything you want about those who disagree with your opinions, but that alone simply does not make your assumptions about people true.  I'll even concede to you that it may very well seem insane to do so, but heck, both options blow serious ass, right? 

Thank you for all of your replies throughout the debate - I do get a strong vibe that you at least care to share your opinions with us.  I'm glad we can have a meaningful discussion on nearly any topic, and agree to respect each other regardless of the opposing opinions.  Well, now that I typed that, I guess I can't speak for anyone but myself when I say that I still respect all of you as people with varying opinions.  I can only hope that this is a mutual feeling here.

*Afterthought*

I continued to think about this "eternal torture" a bit more.  Would anyone care to take a stab at this question I had for myself:

How does one have any thoughts at all while being tortured in a matter unfathomable (according to certain Bible verses I have heard mentioned) to us now?  It really made me wonder..so I thought I'd share the question with you all.  Would our mind have any capacity to do anything at all other than interpreting the electrical signals screaming pain/suffering?  I have no idea what the answer is, but I think it is quite the question.  Let me know what you all think.  Hope you all have a good night/day depending on your location.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jetson on June 14, 2012, 06:21:59 PM
I guess I picked the wrong button!  I don't know, i feel like worshiping an asshat is never really worth it.  But then again, i have no idea what eternal torture is like.  How would it be any different than eternal bliss?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 14, 2012, 06:25:15 PM
I guess I picked the wrong button!  I don't know, i feel like worshiping an asshat is never really worth it. 

But there's s stark choice in front of you.

Quote
But then again, i have no idea what eternal torture is like. 

And you really want to find out without being able to revoke your choice?

Quote
How would it be any different than eternal bliss?

I'll take my chances with eternal bliss. You really mean you wouldn't?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jetson on June 14, 2012, 06:32:28 PM
I suppose when push comes to shove, I'm sort of taking the eternal bliss route right now by avoiding my true passions and working for the man.  Sometimes I feel like a coward in that respect.  And I desperately want my children to chase a passion, instead of a paycheck. 

I have always said that if a god was real, there would be no atheists.  If a god such as bible god truly presented itself to me, and gave me the choice, I would likely choose eternal bliss.  Damn, I hate the thought though.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 14, 2012, 08:41:36 PM
Who says that it's "eternal bliss"?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jetson on June 14, 2012, 09:20:16 PM
Who says that it's "eternal bliss"?

Well, the whole thought experiment is hard for me to ever think of seriously.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Samothec on June 15, 2012, 12:31:43 AM
Who says that it's "eternal bliss"?

Well, the whole thought experiment is hard for me to ever think of seriously.

I found it very difficult to answer because of the IMO flawed premise. While I advised HAL to take a step back and look at it again, I managed to do just that. I realized several things upon looking at it as a puzzle with hidden information.

One of the choices is "burn forever". That coupled with Biblegod means it is the wrathful god - not the loving one - and both heaven and hell will be insufferable. There will not be any eternal bliss. I still stand by my choice of "heaven" because I will be closer to Biblegod and that will present opportunities.

HAL, if I'm running around in heaven killing people like Kent Hovind (subject of another thread) or Pat Robertson, will I get thrown out of heaven? And will they stay dead?      :angel:     (trying on the halo)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 15, 2012, 07:14:09 AM
One of the choices is "burn forever". That coupled with Biblegod means it is the wrathful god - not the loving one - and both heaven and hell will be insufferable. There will not be any eternal bliss. I still stand by my choice of "heaven" because I will be closer to Biblegod and that will present opportunities.

Wait - I didn't say you were dead in the hypothetical and it's obvious you aren't. The choice is "worship god or eternal torture". The choice wasn't "Worship god to get to Heaven or eternal torture."

I said that Biblegod was proven to exist and you had to choose to worship it or accept eternal torture. That means while you are alive you worship it by doing whatever it requires as actions for worship. and then when dead you don't get eternal torture. What you get for worshiping it is not part of the hypothetical. If you choose not to worship a proven deity, then when you die you get eternal torture. That's why I said you would be insane to not worship a proven deity. That's why I claim people like Nam are idiots[1] If you were already dead you wouldn't have a choice. If you were already dead there wouldn't be a need for a proof, or buttons. If you die you automatically find out if it's real or not. C'mon people!


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HAL, if I'm running around in heaven killing people like Kent Hovind (subject of another thread) or Pat Robertson, will I get thrown out of heaven?

You can't kill people who are already dead.

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And will they stay dead?      :angel:     (trying on the halo)

You can't kill people who are already dead.
 1. I'm not an Admin anymore - I stepped down because after so many years I am burned out. I also did it to be able to call idiots on the forum idiots without having a dual role as a rule enforcer :)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: gonegolfing on June 15, 2012, 07:45:07 AM

Blue, over at the Poll.

I've known about the doctrine of Hell my entire life. It's the doctrine that kept me in the most during the time I was a theist.

Aside from the fact that this thread is unnecessary and a nonstarter as I pointed out earlier, if I must, then for me Blue is actually the only option.....I've always hated the doctrine whether as a theist or atheist. It's the most disgusting idea that the human mind has imagined.

"If" however, I were to find out that bible-god does in fact exist, how could that change that fact of the disgust and coercivemess of the doctrine? It doesn't..and so it wouldn't change my stance on it either.

Remember, believing that god exists is not the same as worshiping it. I can fully understand that a god exists and yet have no changed feelings about its characters and actions. I must believe in it, but can still also hate it and it's doctrines. This is where the real battle begins for most. However for me, I can quite confidently choose the penalty because of my complete refusal to be guilty of hypocrisy at the end of the day. As a one on one, I will simply not let a god away with its vile behaviour and mockery of my stance against its crime of death by torture.

To cave in to the doctrine does not show the strength of the doctrine but the mental weakness of the one caving. I refuse to be that weak when faced even with the most drastic of threats. The whole doctrine is extortion at its worst.... This god must be taught a lesson.... My torture is its torture as well--knowing that an individual rejected its demand of worship and with great courage stood their ground and took the penalty.

Taking the punishment at this point is the highest form of individual morality that one can practice. Knowing that I took the moral high ground and rejected the extortion tactic, would in my mind be the eternal balm that's needed to endure the penalty. I'll take it.

But of course, we don't have to worry about these bizarre and nasty human imaginations--so enough said.

 ;)

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2012, 08:01:34 AM
POLL (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23015.msg513665.html#msg513665)

If a moderator locks the thread can people still cast votes? I really don't think we need two threads of people discussing this.

If you actually had one that wasn't as flawed as Hal's topic, which I thought about posting, as a poll but can't do that now.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 15, 2012, 08:07:12 AM
Taking the punishment at this point is the highest form of individual morality that one can practice. Knowing that I took the moral high ground and rejected the extortion tactic, would in my mind be the eternal balm that's needed to endure the penalty. I'll take it.

Golly - that's so impressive. If we only had more people like you the world would be so much better off. Well I'll try to think of you every so often while your intestines are being pulled out of your mouth by rats and your toes are being cut off and cooked to feed to you in the next torture session.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: gonegolfing on June 15, 2012, 08:53:11 AM
Taking the punishment at this point is the highest form of individual morality that one can practice. Knowing that I took the moral high ground and rejected the extortion tactic, would in my mind be the eternal balm that's needed to endure the penalty. I'll take it.

Golly - that's so impressive. If we only had more people like you the world would be so much better off. Well I'll try to think of you every so often while your intestines are being pulled out of your mouth by rats and your toes are being cut off and cooked to feed to you in the next torture session.

 ;D

Now now Hal... don't get all cutesy with me you old whipper snapper !   ;D

By the way....that's some pretty impressive torture techniques you've got...You should try and hook up with god and get some of them implemented..... Hell!..he may even put you on staff !

My last on this one  ;)

Peace



Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 15, 2012, 09:10:31 AM
Actually, this reminds me of the virtual reality world in Fallout 3, where you have everyone in stasis capsules and their minds are all hooked up to a computer.  It's a pretty similar situation, since the sysadmin has godlike powers and it would be fairly easy to block access to the system from inside the VR world.

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to pick eternal torture if they had to spend, oh, an hour or so watching the people who already picked it writhing in agony before making the choice?  Not to demean anyone's bravery, but I don't think there would be many who could.  One of the flaws in HAL's choice matrix is that while you do have proof of biblegod according to the hypothetical, you don't have proof of hell before you make the decision.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: meo on June 15, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
I don't exactly think it's the "flaw" of Hal's choice matrix. It's more like people are focusing on the wrong things? It's like people are asking "how do you know the apple can fly", or say "it depends if the apple was flying towards me or not", when what I asked was "What would you do if you see a flying apple?".

I think what Hal is asking here what would you do if you can really choose between 2 choices, and he has already covered that when he said "worship", it meant through actions, not with thoughts, so there is no such thing as "I can't worship him since I can't love him so there is no choice for me",  but instead people still answer with "there's no choice for me because I can't worship it"?

I have to agree with Hal that people who choose torture are unrealistic, or does not get the picture of eternal torment.

It's probably easier to ask, what if, a crazy dangerous asshole kidnapped you, and tells you that you either kiss his ass 3 times a day for 7 days, or let him and his buddies rape you over and over again for 7 days, while cutting a piece of your skin off and a bit of your finger/toe off bit by bit while doing so for 7 days?
How many would choose the raping over ass kissing? If you think you won't crave in for even just for 7 days, what makes you think you would for eternity?

I believe that people would, out of their impulse and stupidity choose torture, but I also believe that everyone of them will give in and regret it sooner or later.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: flapdoodle64 on June 15, 2012, 10:52:50 AM
I suppose when push comes to shove, I'm sort of taking the eternal bliss route right now by avoiding my true passions and working for the man.  Sometimes I feel like a coward in that respect.  And I desperately want my children to chase a passion, instead of a paycheck. 

I have always said that if a god was real, there would be no atheists.  If a god such as bible god truly presented itself to me, and gave me the choice, I would likely choose eternal bliss.  Damn, I hate the thought though.
^
Win.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 15, 2012, 12:20:17 PM
I wonder how many people would be brave enough to pick eternal torture if they had to spend, oh, an hour or so watching the people who already picked it writhing in agony before making the choice? 

Isn't that what you're[1] asking people to do if they pick worship? Except this time you get to eat pork chops and watch it like a gladiator event. Fun times!
 1. Not really you but your position from the OP perspective.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 15, 2012, 12:45:51 PM


Now now Hal... don't get all cutesy with me you old whipper snapper !   ;D

Hee hee.

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By the way....that's some pretty impressive torture techniques you've got...You should try and hook up with god and get some of them implemented..... Hell!..he may even put you on staff !

Shoot - come into my garage. I haven't even talked about what I could do to you with my table saw. Remember this scene from Goldfinger?

(http://www.joystiq.com/media/2006/05/bondtoactivision_laser.jpg)

As soon as I put you or Nammy or One Above All or sun king or any of you other keyboard heros on the table, spread your legs, and you hear the whir of the blade coming towards the family jewels, you'll start bauling like a beat stepchild begging to show you the way to the altar - but it'll be too late. I won't even have to do any damage to you. So, I respectfully disagree you'll actually choose eternal torture, if the real situation came true, because you are fully able to imagine what might happen and you won't even chance it.

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to pick eternal torture if they had to spend, oh, an hour or so watching the people who already picked it writhing in agony before making the choice?  Not to demean anyone's bravery, but I don't think there would be many who could.

I have to agree with Hal that people who choose torture are unrealistic, or does not get the picture of eternal torment.

The only problem with this hypothetical is I can't seem to get people to consider the actual scenario and put themselves in it. It's way to easy to create noble heroic paragraphs in which you stand up for your moral code and choose eternal tortue. I apologize, but I think that's a total load of bullshit.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: created atheist on June 15, 2012, 01:26:33 PM
I think Hal can make Nammy worship my fish in no time  ;)

It doesn't even have to be bible god, my fish.

Nam can't you still get it?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 15, 2012, 03:24:54 PM
Even I can concede that after a brief moment of torture I'd be begging for mercy. Maybe we should add that option to the poll, if you voted for eternal torment would you regret it and ask to change your mind?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Zankuu on June 15, 2012, 03:31:22 PM
^ That is HAL's point though. Now that you've acknowledged you wouldn't be able to handle the torture and you would regret not pushing the other button, pushing the blue button would be irrational, and from here on you making the claim that you would still push the blue button would either show you are insane or a keyboard hero.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 15, 2012, 04:24:23 PM
Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Samothec on June 15, 2012, 04:31:53 PM
Wait - I didn't say you were dead in the hypothetical and it's obvious you aren't. The choice is "worship god or eternal torture". The choice wasn't "Worship god to get to Heaven or eternal torture."

I said that Biblegod was proven to exist and you had to choose to worship it or accept eternal torture. That means while you are alive you worship it by doing whatever it requires as actions for worship. and then when dead you don't get eternal torture. What you get for worshiping it is not part of the hypothetical. If you choose not to worship a proven deity, then when you die you get eternal torture. That's why I said you would be insane to not worship a proven deity.

Did you make a mistake here or are you moving the goalposts? Above when jetson mentions "eternal bliss" you accept that. Except that "eternal bliss" means dead and in heaven. Now when I ask about activities in heaven you say that in the hypothetical it is supposedly obvious we aren't dead. That's false since it gave no indication whatsoever and your statements to jetson indicate agreement that we are dead. So either you just screwed up or moved the goalposts.

Considering you also added the condition that if we fail in our worship we again get eternal torture, it sounds like moving the goalposts.

Ignoring that, do we get to ask biblegod if what we've been feeling as a message from him is the right way to worship him? Because normally killing people is a bad thing but if they're messages from god then they'd be the right thing to do (if he proved himself). See the movie Frailty for a clear reference.

One good thing about still being alive for the worship now is that it makes finding the Westboro Church people and those of their ilk easier.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Brakeman on June 15, 2012, 04:43:39 PM
Just exactly how can "goddaddy" torture a "soul"?  Since I don't have one or at least it has never registered anything in my existence, I don't think it has any pain centers, thus he's free to torture away. It's kind of like getting burned in the crematorium, it may be dang'd hot, but it won't hurt one bit no matter haw much malice the funeral home director heaps upon me. If my "ghostly spirit" did survive my death in some way, how do you know it won't thrive on masochistic tortures. Maybe my soul would like it? We don't know.
If my "soul" was all knowing because "god's" plan would be complete, then perhaps I would be godly able to withstand happily any tortures found in hell. I would have supreme fixed powers of concentration wouldn't I? How hard would it be to convince myself that hell is better than sex and deserts?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 15, 2012, 05:06:55 PM
Did you make a mistake here or are you moving the goalposts? Above when jetson mentions "eternal bliss" you accept that. Except that "eternal bliss" means dead and in heaven. Now when I ask about activities in heaven you say that in the hypothetical it is supposedly obvious we aren't dead. That's false since it gave no indication whatsoever and your statements to jetson indicate agreement that we are dead. So either you just screwed up or moved the goalposts.

It's not obvious you're alive in the hypothetical? Really? I've never heard of anyone who ever thought you'd have a choice after death regarding the fundamental tenet of the hypothetical I used. The whole thing is based on accepting the proof of god before death and making a choice to worship it or, in the face of the proof, not worshiping the proven deity and accepting nasty consequences. After death? Well it's kindof a done deal then isn't it? Either your in or your out. You can't deny the proof after death - you're either on the express elevator up, or down (as regards Biblegod). So I thought it was patently obvious you were alive.

Also it's generally accepted that Biblegod allows nice things in Heaven if you accept it (if it was real), so Jetson was I guess just using that angle so he would think through and not give a silly answer such as accepting eternal torture. I don't remember all the wild speculation that everyone has done, so if it makes you happy just call it a mistake to allow it.

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Ignoring that, do we get to ask biblegod if what we've been feeling as a message from him is the right way to worship him? Because normally killing people is a bad thing but if they're messages from god then they'd be the right thing to do (if he proved himself). See the movie Frailty for a clear reference.

Sure, you can ask him anything you want to. I don't know if you will get an answer though. Hehehe, I could make a good theist couldn't I?

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One good thing about still being alive for the worship now is that it makes finding the Westboro Church people and those of their ilk easier.

True!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 15, 2012, 05:13:28 PM
^ That is HAL's point though. Now that you've acknowledged you wouldn't be able to handle the torture and you would regret not pushing the other button, pushing the blue button would be irrational, and from here on you making the claim that you would still push the blue button would either show you are insane or a keyboard hero.

EXACTLY! Thank you for the post.

"I can't take the pain but I'll just make a point by pressing the Blue button - uh - a point to ... somebody I'm not sure who ..."

It's just, well, weird that these smart people can extrapolate all manner of possibilities in their everyday lives and on this forum when presented with hard problems, but then when it comes to this one, they can still do it, but yet say they will press the blue button anyway when they just said in their last breath why they shouldn't. I guess it's a neverending source of amusement for me at least. LOL.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Samothec on June 15, 2012, 05:28:27 PM
It's not obvious you're alive in the hypothetical?

Correct. After all, you don't get eternal torture starting the moment after you press the hell button unless you are dead. If you die from pressing one button, why not the other?

I've never heard of anyone who ever thought you'd have a choice after death regarding the fundamental tenet of the hypothetical I used.

Maybe you now understand why I pointed out in my first or second post in this thread that we wouldn't get a choice.

So I thought it was patently obvious you were alive.

Only until you press the button then you're dead according to the OP. Otherwise you don't start suffering immediately.

Sure, you can ask him anything you want to. I don't know if you will get an answer though. Hehehe, I could make a good theist couldn't I?

It's your hypothetical but you don't know if Biblegod would answer?  :o
Unfortunately, yes, you are proving to have learned how to be a theist.    :(
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 15, 2012, 05:38:49 PM
Correct. After all, you don't get eternal torture starting the moment after you press the hell button unless you are dead. If you die from pressing one button, why not the other?

No, no, no. You don't die immediately from pressing either button. You permanently commit to a choice, that's all for the time being. If you worship god while alive you do not get eternal torture when dead. If you don't worship god while alive you do get eternal torture when dead. Meanwhile you are alive after pressing the buttons - one group is worshiping Biblegod according to His worship rules, and the other is going to strip joints and partying down, but... when they die they get eternal torture because they didn't worship Biblegod while alive.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Samothec on June 15, 2012, 05:59:02 PM
No, no, no. You don't die immediately from pressing either button. You permanently commit to a choice, that's all for the time being. If you worship god while alive you do not get eternal torture when dead. If you don't worship god while alive you do get eternal torture when dead. Meanwhile you are alive after pressing the buttons - one group is worshiping Biblegod according to His worship rules, and the other is going to strip joints and partying down, but... when they die they get eternal torture because they didn't worship Biblegod while alive.

You are presenting something quite different from the original hypothetical here. The only reason to have a button to press is if you need to make a choice right then and there. This living after you press the button is a new twist on the question and makes pressing the button pointless if what matters is whether or not you worship.

So the new question is:
If Biblegod shows himself to exist, would you worship (knowing that if you didn't you would eventually burn in hell once you died normally)?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 15, 2012, 06:19:32 PM
You are presenting something quite different from the original hypothetical here.

I had to do the button thing because people were trying to wiggle out of the stark choice any way they could.

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The only reason to have a button to press is if you need to make a choice right then and there.

Right. That's what I'm trying to get people to do. Yes.

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This living after you press the button is a new twist on the question and makes pressing the button pointless if what matters is whether or not you worship.

It's not a new twist, I never thought people would assume you would get to choose to worship after death. I've never heard anyone argue that would happen. No, I disagree it makes the button pointless. It makes these people commit to a choice instead of trying to weasel out of the hypothetical.

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So the new question is:
If Biblegod shows himself to exist, would you worship (knowing that if you didn't you would eventually burn in hell once you died normally)?

Fine, if you want it worded that way.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2012, 11:01:43 PM
I think what Hal is asking here what would you do if you can really choose between 2 choices, and he has already covered that when he said "worship", it meant through actions, not with thoughts, so there is no such thing as "I can't worship him since I can't love him so there is no choice for me",  but instead people still answer with "there's no choice for me because I can't worship it"?

I never responded that way, and neither did many others. The hypothetical is: Biblegod exists. But the thing is: to over a billion people on Earth actually believe Biblegod exists, and choose to worship out of fear, actual love, or they were brainwashed to. The fear is going to a horrible place like Hell. So, they choose to worship this being that, I bet, many of them despise. WE as atheists choose not to, and in the Christians mind we are going to Hell. In their mind, that's our choice.

So, all the atheists on here, who are currently choosing Hell based on their perception that there's no possible way, or it's highly improbable that the deity in the Bible exists because of all the faces it has, or what not, are saying that if, hypothetically, it was shown to exist, they'd bow down in a heartbeat; some stating they'd fake it as if Biblegod couldn't tell, or that they'd wait and overthrow him, as if an angel, and its pals didn't try that before--anything to sell themselves that they are not cowards when in effect: they are and basically have no conviction.

I mean: why are they even atheists at the moment? I know this is a hypothetical but some of them gave it no thought whatsoever: they'd beg for forgiveness in a heartbeat. Doesn't say much for them, no? Or you, I guess.

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I have to agree with Hal that people who choose torture are unrealistic, or does not get the picture of eternal torment.

No, it isn't unrealistic 'cause by being atheists that's exactly what "we're" doing at the moment. No one on this website, or any website can say with 100% certainty that Biblegod doesn't exist without it being their strong opinion that it is. But also, no one on this website, or anywhere else can show with 100% certainty that Biblegod exists. That's what one gets when a thought becomes shared.

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It's probably easier to ask, what if, a crazy dangerous asshole kidnapped you, and tells you that you either kiss his ass 3 times a day for 7 days, or let him and his buddies rape you over and over again for 7 days, while cutting a piece of your skin off and a bit of your finger/toe off bit by bit while doing so for 7 days?
How many would choose the raping over ass kissing? If you think you won't crave in for even just for 7 days, what makes you think you would for eternity?

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

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I believe that people would, out of their impulse and stupidity choose torture, but I also believe that everyone of them will give in and regret it sooner or later.

They'd probably regret it as they chose the torture but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't choose the torture. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2012, 11:06:54 PM
Even I can concede that after a brief moment of torture I'd be begging for mercy. Maybe we should add that option to the poll, if you voted for eternal torment would you regret it and ask to change your mind?

Begging for mercy isn't the same thing as giving up and saying, "I worship and praise you oh mighty one.", of course if one does that, at least they can say they tried, Hal and the others on his side couldn't even say that much.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 16, 2012, 06:50:10 AM
I mean: why are they even atheists at the moment?

Because there isn't proof of a any gods, not to mention there's no good evidence of them either. You keep making the same mistakes over and over. Being an atheist has nothing to do with taking heroic stands against gods if they possibly were to exist. I think you're demonstrating to us all why you are making the choice you are making.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Graybeard on June 16, 2012, 01:33:33 PM
The question is strange; as far as I can see, Bible God v.1 OT did require worship and laid out at great length how to do it in the Temple and via animal and human sacrifice.

Bible God v1.1 NT did not require worship; Christ’s point was that the Jews were concentrating on worship and the ritual of worship to the exclusion of “being reasonable.” The nearest Jesus came to demanding worship was in Luke 19:27 – killing people who did not accept him as leader; on the other hand, he said, “when you pray, pray in private.” (The “when” here could well be taken as “if”.) Hellfire and Damnation is for those who do not operate as per His words, not for those who do not worship.

Bible God v.1.2 (Paul’s writing and those attributed to Paul) concentrates on faith (Acceptance of Jesus) and works and does not speak too much of worship.

The question therefore is the same as some Cambodian back in the day saying, “if Pol Pot is shown to be the President, would you accept that he was president and obey his laws or would you agree to be executed?”

My answer would be, “I would say that I accepted Pol Pot as president and try to keep out of his clutches whilst hoping for change.”
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Samothec on June 16, 2012, 05:45:09 PM
I mean: why are they even atheists at the moment? I know this is a hypothetical but some of them gave it no thought whatsoever: they'd beg for forgiveness in a heartbeat. Doesn't say much for them, no? Or you, I guess.
-Nam

The hypothetical, in whichever form, doesn't ask if we'd beg forgiveness - it skips over that as well as other things. It only asks if we would worship - whether alive or dead. Me, I said worship because that maximizes my chances to kill biblegod and his repulsive believers who make this world miserable.

I was fortunate enough to have lost my religion by the time I saw the movie Frailty because my agency-detection is sometimes over-active and, even though I didn't believe in any god, the movie made me wonder if he was talking to me, telling me I should be out there killing bad people. Then I regained my senses and shook it off - realized it was just my own tortured mind f**king with me. So, if biblegod ever shows himself to me he should expect me to do everything I can to kill him throughout all of eternity - or as long as I exist.

I am atheist but also vehemently anti-theist. I will be atheist if I have to kill every god to be one. And if they just keep coming back, I'll kill them again and consume them. If that makes me into god then I'll allow that one (me) to live. But only me. (Yes, I am getting therapy. We haven't even gotten close to this.)

But this is all just a massive pile of fetid speculation as evinced by the fact that few acknowledge that (as you pointed out) the atheists here have already pushed the blue button for eternal torture.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 16, 2012, 07:20:10 PM
I don't agree with your position of anti-theism Samothec. It's very irrational. You have no means of knowing what type of a god any god would be should they exists. For all we know they could be worthy of worship, won't ask for it, don't need it, died off years ago, or whatever random combination our simple minds can think of. The point is that there's no point in being angry at something that doesn't exist. There's no point in being angry at something that may exist when you know nothing of it's attributes. Saying you will kill or attempt to kill every god you came in contact with is also irrational.

I can understand people who hate religion and what it does to this world. I can understand anti-theism to the point of not wanting religion to hurt people or take away our rights. I can even understand hating god/s if you believe them to be real. But I can't understand your position. I'm glad to hear you are in therapy for these things because I think you are wasting a lot of negative energy for no reason. You're aren't fighting a battle worth fighting.[1]

IMO the type of hate you have expressed is the equivalent of racism, or sexism. The only difference is you are feeling this level of hate at an old time imaginary friend who is better to be forgotten than hated. I sincerely wish you luck in your therapy, I don't enjoy seeing people struggle.
 1. I feel allowing yourself to feel as much hate as you expressed in your post to be wasted energy.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Death over Life on June 16, 2012, 08:39:31 PM
My stubbornness comes from my belief that people playing tough saying they would press a button that would result in eternal torture with NO POSSIBLE way to stop it is not honest of them. It's just ridiculous and not in any way indicative of human nature and self-preservation and really just completely stupid.

Judges 1:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

This is just one example of the Bible God’s weakness, if proven True. The Serpent in the Garden of Eden is another one. The hypothetical is if the traditional Bible God view of God is True, and those people believe the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says it and the Bible says it is True etc. with the circular logic.

Going by this, we also get to accept that God failed in the garden of Eden against the Serpent, and that God’s weakness is an iron chariot in Judges. Why is it possible for a Snake and a Man with an Iron Chariot able to go and fight God and defeat God, while we can’t? Think about that for a second.

You refuse to accept that THERE IS A POSSIBLE WAY to stop it, through defiance! It may be your hypothetical, but your hypothetical has loopholes in it. If you want to change my answer, please change your hypothetical, which you did in a new thread so I’ll go see what that’s all about.

Tell me oh wise one - what's the difference between trying to oppose the Nazis and trying to oppose a god? Take your time.

There is no difference, that’s the point! Those who say they’ll press the Red button and worship and follow God, really need to take another look at the Bible and take a look at similar events that Bible God has done in history. The closest thing that Bible God has done in the Bible that shows his character, in a historical context event, would be Adolf Hitler and the Nazi’s, coupled with Mussolini, and Joseph Stalin. So, those who really say they’ll bow and worship God, are in no difference to me, giving Hitler the heil Hitler salute, and will obey orders in the Holocaust, hoping to thwart Hitler’s evil plans, only to obey, just as many Nazi Officers claimed and tried to do in WWII.

So for me, in a real-life scenario, bowing down before God is just as bad or worse, than heiling Hitler. There is not much difference, if at all between the 2, which is exactly what I’m saying, so I think you meant what is similar between God and the Nazis.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Bereft_of_Faith on June 16, 2012, 11:56:48 PM
^ @Death over Life:

Judah could not drive out the inhabitants because of their iron chariots.  Biblegod has 'proven' he can level a city, flood the world killing everything on it, and consign his rebellious servants to hell.  He is aware of individual suffering, as in the case of Job, and has no problems inflicting it even upon someone who faithfully serves him.  If he leaves the job of torturing to flunkies, then we'd have a chance, but he has 'shown' that he is capable of exacting monstrous vengeance upon anyone.  If that guy was proven to be real, I would not underestimate him and his abilities to inflict pain and suffering. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Bereft_of_Faith on June 17, 2012, 12:25:53 AM
Tell me oh wise one - what's the difference between trying to oppose the Nazis and trying to oppose a god? Take your time.

There is no difference, that’s the point! Those who say they’ll press the Red button and worship and follow God, really need to take another look at the Bible and take a look at similar events that Bible God has done in history.  [snipped]

There's a big difference.  Known people, famous people escaped the Nazis.  Ann Frank hid from them.  The king of Denmark frustrated their efforts to collect the jews there.  There were survivors of the Resistance.  There were probably untold numbers of people who appeared to be complying with Nazi dictates, but who were secretly resistant.  We know that the Nazis were brutally efficient, but the Bible, which defines the parms for biblegod, shows no one who escaped him.  The bible claims that no one will.  All will be judged.  He is not some human bureaucracy, reliant on spies and snitches.  IF you accept the premise, for the sake of the question posed, that the god of the bible has been proven real, and has then offered this choice, I don't see how anyone could hope to avoid or resist him.

EDIT: added after some further thought...
Let's say that the Nazis and God are the same.  That would imply that genuflecting and appearing obedient would be an option.  As long as that red-buttoner did not actively obey biblegod's commands that would violate one's own ethics, one could survive and resist in any way one chose. 

History is the judge.  The Germans who appeared to accept the Nazi regime but who did not gas jews or gypsies, did not call the Gestapo on their socialist neighbor, or who listened to the BBC to try and get the other side of the story... these  people, when the war was over, were judged to be no different than those that did no major crimes but who actually supported the regime.  There was no way one could verify one's distaste of the regime. 

Much older people I know continue to have a dim view of all Germans, of all Japanese and judge them all the same way.  If biblegod's regime falls, the silent dissenters will be judged the same way by the victors.  In my mind, that's a small price to pay for not having to burn forever in god's hell.

The (stated) consequences for pressing the blue button are far too grave as to be unimaginable.  I would risk death, perhaps even torture, to take a stand I believed in.  I will not risk eternal torment.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on June 17, 2012, 01:34:28 PM
edit:

oops...posted in wrong thread...please see comment here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23039.msg514264.html#msg514264)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2012, 05:49:42 PM
If you're accepting Biblegod, and worshipping it: you're begging for forgiveness based on defying it while alive.

Stating things like: I'll accept it and overthrow it in time -- that's stupid. I mean Hal has expressed how stupid myself and others are responding 'cause we'd choose hell yet you people actually think you can defeat a god when more powerful beings (angels) than you couldn't. I mean, what supernatural power would you have to do such a thing?

And we're the idiots. Please...hypothethetical rhetoric y'all are spewing.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 17, 2012, 06:07:33 PM
Stating things like: I'll accept it and overthrow it in time -- that's stupid. I mean Hal has expressed how stupid myself and others are responding 'cause we'd choose hell yet you people actually think you can defeat a god when more powerful beings (angels) than you couldn't. I mean, what supernatural power would you have to do such a thing?

Oh I agree Nam - they're as stupid as you are.  :)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 17, 2012, 07:14:01 PM
How many would choose the raping over ass kissing? If you think you won't crave in for even just for 7 days, what makes you think you would for eternity?

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

Sentient beings are going to choose what they think will make them the most happy or the least unhappy. There comes a time in life when you just have to accept things the way they are, and push that red button. It will make you the least unhappy. Your argument is along the lines of jumping naked off a cliff in rebellion against the laws of the universe, just because the laws of the universe state that you are unable to fly. Well boo fucking hoo, Nam. Boo fucking hoo.

Either play nice with HAL's hypothetical and push the red button[1], or . . .


(http://www.lolcatbible.com/images/thumb/8/8d/Gtfo.jpg/476px-Gtfo.jpg)
 1. Kimberly finally did. HAL and I saved her hypothetical soul.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: bertatberts on June 18, 2012, 02:31:28 AM
Hal:
In the poll thread, I choose the blue button. (Burn Forever)  I believe that the red button (Worship) to be just another shade of blue.

If the gods of the bible were shown to be one god and exist, then it would be all knowing, as well as a cruel callous creature.
 
Being an all knowing creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.
So the red button (Worship) would not be an option. Which leaves us with the blue (Burn Forever). I made the choice (Though it’s not really a choice them both being blue an all) not because I’m a bad arse, but because I'm being honest to myself and at the same time telling this bible-god, I won't pretend to worship him so he can send me to eternal torture, anyway.
I will go to my fate being able to hold my head high, and retain my dignity.

Anyhow with no stimuli, just pain in a few years, maybe months, I would be insane anyway. And the torture wouldn't matter, it would for all intents and purposes, lose its effect, It would become normality.
The body may be there, but the mind would have left long ago.

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 18, 2012, 06:53:02 AM
Hal:
In the poll thread, I choose the blue button. (Burn Forever)  I believe that the red button (Worship) to be just another shade of blue.

If the gods of the bible were shown to be one god and exist, then it would be all knowing, as well as a cruel callous creature.
 
Being an all knowing creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.
So the red button (Worship) would not be an option. Which leaves us with the blue (Burn Forever). I made the choice (Though it’s not really a choice them both being blue an all) not because I’m a bad arse, but because I'm being honest to myself and at the same time telling this bible-god, I won't pretend to worship him so he can send me to eternal torture, anyway.
I will go to my fate being able to hold my head high, and retain my dignity.

Anyhow with no stimuli, just pain in a few years, maybe months, I would be insane anyway. And the torture wouldn't matter, it would for all intents and purposes, lose its effect, It would become normality.
The body may be there, but the mind would have left long ago.

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.

Wow dude, can you totally over-analyze something or what!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: meo on June 18, 2012, 11:45:42 AM
Quote from: Kim
Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.
I think it's because this is the discussion/argument we are having right now? If you don't care then why discuss it at all whether it's your flaw or others people's flaws at all and go as far as making a poll?


Quote from: Nam
WE as atheists choose not to, and in the Christians mind we are going to Hell. In their mind, that's our choice.
You would have to believe in god, and the bible god to actually choose between going to hell or heaven. Please do not use "WE", please do not speak for me, but since I do not believe in this god or hell at all this choice does not exist for me. If you believe that you are making this choice, aka believe that the choice exist, then you are not an atheist.
I am. So I, as an atheist did not choose anything.

Now, when the bible god is PROVEN to exist hence no one on earth can possibly be an atheist anymore and I am forced to make a choice? That's another story.

Quote from: Nam

No, it isn't unrealistic 'cause by being atheists that's exactly what "we're" doing at the moment.
It has nothing to do with being atheists.
It's a hypothetical question. Asking you what you would do if you saw a flying apple isn't asking you to believe apples can fly.
You said "I never responded that way", but you are responding exactly that way.

Quote from: nam
I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.
Oh I believe you. I believe probably many people would choose the latter too. But I am on Hal's side that the people doing so are......out of their mind.. or.. not too bright.
If you choose to kiss his ass, you are pretty much still free to do anything else, you can put the rest of the time into good use. But if you choose the latter, not only would you be in a lot of pain, but you would have wasted a lot of your time not being able to do anything.
So the person pretty much made a choice that does not in anyway benefit himself or anyone, they also choose to waste their time to be in pain.

Quote from: beratberts
Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.
I believe that Hal explains this several times that when he says "worship" it's through action but not thoughts, rather you are sincere or not is irrelevant.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 18, 2012, 12:26:30 PM
Quote from: Kim
Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.
I think it's because this is the discussion/argument we are having right now? If you don't care then why discuss it at all whether it's your flaw or others people's flaws at all and go as far as making a poll?

Well to be fair, what I meant was I'm not interested to the level the person I was replying to was expecting me to be interested. I have varying degrees of interest, I cared enough about this topic to debate it for 13 pages, create a poll to see how others felt, and enough to reevaluate and change my own opinion once I realize I was wrong. I think I've shared enough interest to not warrant any criticism for the level of my interest.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 18, 2012, 03:15:39 PM
Hal:
In the poll thread, I choose the blue button. (Burn Forever)  I believe that the red button (Worship) to be just another shade of blue.

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.

I say you are a liar. You will choose red if given HAL's options in reality, Liar. "Burn Forever" . . . Huh, people that sit at their computers typing all day aren't the best candidates to withstand a "Burning Forever". HAL and I see right through your stupid bullshit, you Goddamn liar.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 18, 2012, 05:22:59 PM
How many would choose the raping over ass kissing? If you think you won't crave in for even just for 7 days, what makes you think you would for eternity?

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

Sentient beings are going to choose what they think will make them the most happy or the least unhappy. There comes a time in life when you just have to accept things the way they are, and push that red button. It will make you the least unhappy. Your argument is along the lines of jumping naked off a cliff in rebellion against the laws of the universe, just because the laws of the universe state that you are unable to fly. Well boo fucking hoo, Nam. Boo fucking hoo.

Either play nice with HAL's hypothetical and push the red button[1], or . . .


(http://www.lolcatbible.com/images/thumb/8/8d/Gtfo.jpg/476px-Gtfo.jpg)
 1. Kimberly finally did. HAL and I saved her hypothetical soul.

Happiness/Unhappiness. Relative. Period. People who have the perception of eathly things being the same as heavenly or hell things, are idiots. I felt the same way when I was a Christian.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Nam on June 18, 2012, 05:26:47 PM
Quote from: Kim
Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.
I think it's because this is the discussion/argument we are having right now? If you don't care then why discuss it at all whether it's your flaw or others people's flaws at all and go as far as making a poll?


Quote from: Nam
WE as atheists choose not to, and in the Christians mind we are going to Hell. In their mind, that's our choice.
You would have to believe in god, and the bible god to actually choose between going to hell or heaven. Please do not use "WE", please do not speak for me, but since I do not believe in this god or hell at all this choice does not exist for me. If you believe that you are making this choice, aka believe that the choice exist, then you are not an atheist.
I am. So I, as an atheist did not choose anything.

Now, when the bible god is PROVEN to exist hence no one on earth can possibly be an atheist anymore and I am forced to make a choice? That's another story.

Quote from: Nam

No, it isn't unrealistic 'cause by being atheists that's exactly what "we're" doing at the moment.
It has nothing to do with being atheists.
It's a hypothetical question. Asking you what you would do if you saw a flying apple isn't asking you to believe apples can fly.
You said "I never responded that way", but you are responding exactly that way.

Quote from: nam
I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.
Oh I believe you. I believe probably many people would choose the latter too. But I am on Hal's side that the people doing so are......out of their mind.. or.. not too bright.
If you choose to kiss his ass, you are pretty much still free to do anything else, you can put the rest of the time into good use. But if you choose the latter, not only would you be in a lot of pain, but you would have wasted a lot of your time not being able to do anything.
So the person pretty much made a choice that does not in anyway benefit himself or anyone, they also choose to waste their time to be in pain.

Quote from: beratberts
Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.
I believe that Hal explains this several times that when he says "worship" it's through action but not thoughts, rather you are sincere or not is irrelevant.


I'm not speaking for you, I was generalizing by using "we".

Get over yourself.

-Nam
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 18, 2012, 07:10:31 PM
Happiness/Unhappiness. Relative. Period. People who have the perception of eathly things being the same as heavenly or hell things, are idiots. I felt the same way when I was a Christian.

-Nam

Yeah, but you weren't burning, Motherfucker. You weren't burning.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Airyaman on June 18, 2012, 09:49:24 PM
So biblegod exists, and so does the biblical hell. Well, since the bible barely describes hell while thoroughly describing biblegod, I'd take my chances with hell. Biblegod is a scary personage.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 19, 2012, 02:53:43 PM
So biblegod exists, and so does the biblical hell. Well, since the bible barely describes hell while thoroughly describing biblegod, I'd take my chances with hell. Biblegod is a scary personage.

Another liar?

HAL! Please! Make it stop! I must've pushed the blue button without knowing it!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Kimberly on June 19, 2012, 03:54:16 PM
You know lotanddaughters ... one really shouldn't go around calling people liars. Even though I changed my mind about the OP it doesn't mean my original statements are lies. They way you are coming across is really condescending and fan boyish. I'm not sure if that's your intent or not but it's spread across so many different threads I figured I would be "that guy" and say something about it. Hope you don't mind my honesty, it's a flaw I know.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: lotanddaughters on June 19, 2012, 04:04:08 PM
You know lotanddaughters ... one really shouldn't go around calling people liars. Even though I changed my mind about the OP it doesn't mean my original statements are lies. They way you are coming across is really condescending and fan boyish. I'm not sure if that's your intent or not but it's spread across so many different threads I figured I would be "that guy" and say something about it. Hope you don't mind my honesty, it's a flaw I know.

Yeah, I see your point. I was a little too far over-the-top on my accusations. Ever since I read this inspiring post by sun_king, my outlook changed 180 degrees, LOL:

<snip>

I don't mind your honesty. It's comforting. :)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jeremy0 on June 29, 2012, 12:16:34 AM
Hal:

I can't stand this topic because the way it's formatted, I basically can have no argument.  Just because you state the evil bible-god-queen is in fact real, and you will in fact be tortured should you not do what he/she says.  I can't insert any 'don't worry - here's logics and here's why this won't happen and here's how to overcome your fear.' 

The scenario you posited here is absolutely awful. 

However, I think it's important that you brought it up.  As you can see, everybody here basically knows my name if they want.  I'm not 'hiding behind the internet'.  But when at first I tried to argue as I would with religion, when I considered the hypothetical there really is no choice...

That said - since there is really no choice and the obvious is black-and-white, I'm surprised to see just how much of an argument this became.  It shows some flaws in reasoning just with people arguing against the hypothetical.  it shows that we are all just human, and in the face of an omni-god, there is no other alternative.  That makes this interesting, indeed.

So I'm actually saying - I'm surprised at this...  thanks for bringing it up.

But would also like to state - this is just a hypothetical.  I hope that doesn't scare you guys back to religion... (edited)
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: meo on June 30, 2012, 09:25:53 AM
Quote from: nam
I'm not speaking for you, I was generalizing by using "we".

Get over yourself.

You said "we as atheist", I am an atheist, so how am I not being included? Why are you generalizing when you could simply use "I" instead of "we"? I understand now that you are not trying to speak for everyone but was it not reasonable to think that you were? Why are you telling me to get over myself?

From my understanding, atheist means non believe in gods, not anti-bible god, so based on that, how can an "atheist" not believing in hell/god/heaven can still make a choice?
"There is no such thing as apple but I choose to eat it." <--- How does this actually work? Please explain.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on June 30, 2012, 09:31:34 AM
"There is no such thing as apple but I choose to eat it." <--- How does this actually work? Please explain.

I don't think Nam will explain it - he ran off pouting.  :-\
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: znk666 on July 02, 2012, 04:42:31 AM
Late to the discussion i see but whatever...
I would personally rather be eternally tortured than to pussy out and worship a celestial dictator that only wishes to make it's ''creations'' suffer and wishes to exploit them.

Because that's the general characteristic of any god/s according to scriptures.
This being under the circumstances that there's definite evidence that God exists.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on July 02, 2012, 06:55:32 AM
I would personally rather be eternally tortured than to pussy out and worship a celestial dictator that only wishes to make it's ''creations'' suffer and wishes to exploit them.

I don't believe you.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: znk666 on July 02, 2012, 01:43:41 PM
So why ask a question if you won't accept the answer given to you?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jeremy0 on July 02, 2012, 03:52:21 PM
^^ It's more like *shakes head in dis-belief...*
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on July 02, 2012, 06:20:26 PM
So why ask a question if you won't accept the answer given to you?

Does the mere answering of a question require others to believe you?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: znk666 on July 03, 2012, 06:11:15 AM
So why ask a question if you won't accept the answer given to you?

Does the mere answering of a question require others to believe you?

I just don't see the point in asking a question you answered yourself already.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: HAL on July 03, 2012, 06:17:05 AM
I just don't see the point in asking a question you answered yourself already.

I didn't say you didn't believe what you said - I said I didn't believe you. You'd have to convince me otherwise with more than what you have said. I don't think you have thought about it long and hard enough.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jorgea on July 04, 2012, 10:55:13 AM
The only being that can be perfect is God.  Since we humans have such a narrow limited intellect, even our definition of perfection is also limited. So how can we humans properly judge who is "perfect" and who isn't?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Graybeard on July 04, 2012, 02:55:50 PM
The only being that can be perfect is God.  Since we humans have such a narrow limited intellect, even our definition of perfection is also limited. So how can we humans properly judge who is "perfect" and who isn't?
I can see that you are not a Christian, which religion do you follow?

In Christianity, God commands us thus: "1st Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1st Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?."

So you see Christians are a little more perfect that angels. We know this because Christians say they will judge angels.

As you are unfamiliar with the Christian Bible, let me quote you the following verses:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You see, Christians think they are the Sons of God. Do you know anyone else who was "The Son of God"? Yes, that's right, Jesus was the Son of God.

Was Jesus perfect? Was the Son of God perfect? Are the Sons of God Perfect?

Christians think they are up there with the best of them. They are really silly.

Whatever religion you are, perhaps you will let us have your thoughts.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 10, 2012, 02:55:39 AM
On reflection, I think Hal is completely correct.  I think perhaps the problem lies in that the hypothetical was TOO hypothetical.  So I scaled it down.

Imagine....you feel a blow to your head, and it all goes dark.  When you wake, you are strapped in a chair in a darkened room, and standing before you is Hannibal Lechter.....or Dahmer, or West, or whoever.  Whatever, you know that this is a sociopath who has no problem inflicting pain on his victims.  To his side is a tray full of torture implements.  He points to the tools and speaks.  "Tell me how great I am, how valid my 'work' is, or I'll use these on you."

When I framed the hypothetical in these terms, all of a sudden I had no problem 'pressing the red button', perhaps because it was something that (through movies and books and TV) I eally could envisage happening.

Sure - I loathe his 'work', and everything he is.  But would there be any gain at all in telling him that, alone and helpless and with no sign of rescue?  I can't see any - and that includes my biggest stumbling block about "how can you speak against something that - in the crunch - you would support?" 

Before the crack on the head, before the time of crunch, we have got the freedom to oppose and to speak out.   Indeed, if I were in a room with Lechter, unbound and capable of action, I would do my best to take him down.  Its the point at which all options are closed, where it's real and now and the final point of decision, that I feel there is no shame in pressing red, and nothing at all to be gained by pressing blue. 


I grok where Hal is coming from.  And I've gained some peace of mind from my lesser hypothesis.  You can - should - do your damndest to try to track down and incarcerate the serial torture/killer and prevent him spreading his evil....but ther is no shame in stroking his ego when he has you at his mercy. 

Where there is something to be gained....then, there is a reason to try to hold out.  But that's where the parallels with things like resisting the Gestapo fail.  In that situation, be resisting for an hour or a day has some point.  It gives time for your friends to move the base, execute the attack, get the plans on the boat, and every moment could count.  You can be brave and grit your teeth and try to survive and - after a while - cry "uncle" and it stops and you will have acheived something by taking "some" pain.  In the god or killer hypotheticals, not only does it not stop when you cry uncle, but there is no gain in pressing blue at all.  It's the everything-path doing it who doesn't care about your pride and who will be unaffected by any displays on your part, so tell him what he wants from the moment you are in his power.

Then clock him one if he ever releases the straps.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: jaimehlers on July 10, 2012, 05:23:34 PM
There is that.  That also leads to a possible fifth column strategy.  If overt resistance is pointless, sometimes being subtle can pay off.  For example, carefully working on loosening the straps without being noticed.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: screwtape on July 11, 2012, 07:15:45 AM
There is that.  That also leads to a possible fifth column strategy.  If overt resistance is pointless, sometimes being subtle can pay off.  For example, carefully working on loosening the straps without being noticed.

Unless, you know, your opponent is omniscient. 
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Bereft_of_Faith on July 14, 2012, 01:52:47 AM
On reflection [snipped]

Bingo!
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: TheGodYouForsaken on July 24, 2012, 02:36:58 AM
I have the keys to death and the hades.
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 24, 2012, 02:41:45 AM
That's nice for you.  I've got the keys to the wargaming scenery cupboard at the club.

Do you have a point to make or are you just trolling?
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: TheGodYouForsaken on July 24, 2012, 02:52:01 AM
Human, I made you. Don't be a smart ass

If you want out of Hell, I can set you free. You have been Judged. Fear Death
Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: screwtape on July 24, 2012, 06:41:40 PM
I have the keys to death and the hades.

Are you looking for the Gate Keeper?

Title: Re: If Biblegod was shown to exist, Would you worship or Burn Forever?
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 24, 2012, 06:57:19 PM
You just dated yourself (and me), bro.

Jet banned it, so I guess you'll never know.