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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 11:23:09 AM

Title: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 11:23:09 AM
Aren't we all tired of debating on existence of God?
We all know nobody has a rock solid evidence on either case.

Let's start something new.
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.
Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior?

Why and why not?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: curiousgirl on November 11, 2011, 11:25:48 AM
I would not, because as I have said in another thread that I started with Bible verses to prove it, Bible God seems pretty cruel. He is loving and kind one moment, then enraged and murderous the next minute (kind of like what an abusive husband sounds like). Anyway, you can check out my other thread for those verses.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Roq on November 11, 2011, 12:15:20 PM
Would anyone accept a god, unless there was some sweetener, such as some kind of heaven? Moslem's need to be tempted by 100 (or is it only 72?) virgins in order to accept their God, I think I'd take a few less - providing I didn't have to knock over any skyscrapers.   
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 12:20:54 PM
Quote
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.
Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior?

A billion+ people would reply:

No, I'm a Muslim.

or

No, I'm a Jew.

Quote
Why and why not?
I assume you understand the basic tenets of Judaism and Islam...

Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Historicity on November 11, 2011, 12:26:14 PM
Let's start something new.
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.
Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior?
No, I could invent my own version of cherry picking, my own new undocumented assumptions or the next dream I have after praying before bed time.

Like David Koresh, I can decide that I am God.

God has never stepped in to clarify no matter how bad it gets.  An angel with a flaming sword could have arrived over the battlefields of the 30 Years War to indicate the Catholic or the Lutheran side was the true religion but did not.  The show Touched by an Angel shows what ought to be happening if God exists but obviously does not.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Historicity on November 11, 2011, 12:27:42 PM
IF GOD EXISTS, DID HE GIVE YOU A COMMANDMENT TO POST IN ALL CAPS?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Alzael on November 11, 2011, 12:57:47 PM

Why and why not?

Well I could point out that he's a malicious genocidal douchebag. Or that he's racist, sexist, elitist, needlessly brutal, and aggregiously stupid.

But let me just point this out instead.

At several points in the bible god encourages his followers to go out and commit what essentially amounts to the rape of women. Note that he does not rape women himself. He merely holds almost no one accountable for it, does not consider it a bad thing, shows no guilt or remorse at the brutalisation and trauma of the women involved (seeing them only as property), and at certain points actively encourages his followers to commit rape. Yet he never does it himself.

So basically, your god isn't even a murdering sociopathic rapist.

He's a murdering sociopathic rapists' cheerleader.

How utterly pathetic is that?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 01:18:47 PM
If god existed, I'd accept him because the alternative is simply too horrible to consider. 

I'd hate myself, but I'd do it.

I'm just too much of a wimp to face infinite, eternal torture.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: JeffPT on November 11, 2011, 01:40:02 PM
That's not a simple yes or no question.

First of all, if God exists, then he deserves utter contempt and hatred for what he does every single day to humanity.  There is no doubt about that.  While (again assuming he exists) he treats me wonderfully, I believe it would be extraordinarily selfish of me to praise Him while at the same time he treats so many other people like total shit. 

Second, I assume you believe that if God exists, then I assume you are also trying to say that the entire story about Jesus sacrificing himself for all of humanity would also be true.  In that case, Jesus did what any person would do in that situation. Just think about it. If God literally came down and said to you, "Dude, if you allow yourself to be tortured for a day or two and then executed, every single person that ever lived (or will live) will be able to get to go to the ultimate place for all eternity," what would you do?  You'd say hell yes. Do you know of a single person that would wouldn't?  I've said it before... I'd do that for just my kids, let alone all of humanity.  What he did was no big deal.  Plus the fact that Jesus' death was NOT a sacrifice because he literally lost nothing.  He actually gained from his own death.  He got to go back to heaven again. 

If God were real, I would first have to ask him why he had to send Jesus to be executed in the first place when all he had to do was simply forgive everyone and be a good guy.  My acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice would depend on the answer, I guess. But it would have to be really good to counteract the knowledge about God's omnipotence and omniscience.  If God gave me no answer, then I would say God is an ass hole and that he murdered Jesus for no reason at all. 

Again, assuming that the God of the bible is real (which it's not), is there an option for accepting Jesus sacrifice while at the same time thinking God is an ass hole for making it happen?   If I accepted Jesus' sacrifice, could I, at the very same time, hate God and still get to heaven?  Because let's be honest, I'd want to go to heaven for purely selfish reasons, but I would have a very hard time thinking God was good. 

Fun hypothetical.  I'm just glad none of it's true. 
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Omen on November 11, 2011, 01:57:19 PM
Aren't we all tired of debating on existence of God?

Nope.

Quote
We all know nobody has a rock solid evidence on either case.

The biblical god does not exist, there is a rock solid case against the biblical god.  The only way out of the problem is to redefine or move the goal post as to what is meant when one says 'biblical' god.

Quote
Let's start something new.
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.

Which interpretation?

Assuming it exists, how do we account for contradictions?

Bible god as in the jewish deity or the christian deity?

Quote
Would you repent

Repent what? How?

Quote
and accept Jesus

How does one 'accept' it?

Quote
as you savior?

Savior? Savior from what?

Quote
Why and why not?

The initial problem is that your cultural superstition is inherently invested in a dogmatic rhetorical language of metaphors that are often no better than platitudes.  They don't convey essential meaning to be understood beyond a simple verbal expression as a sign of someones participation within the rhetoric.  Its so ludicrously at odds with conveying an informed context that it can't even be 'considered' in a way to be understood even when giving the benefit of the doubt.  The dogma of 'belief' for the sake of 'belief' has produced various popularity cults that lack any intellectual depth and meaning.  You're not really asking us if what we would do if said thing existed, you're asking us if we would go through the dogmatic physical mannerisms and verbalisms.   It is little different than superstitious beliefs about tossing salt over your shoulder, not walking underneath a ladder, or avoiding black cats.

If a god exists it exists, if its ideological 'construct' is too nebulous or incoherent to convey a meaningful notion, then all I can do is ask for it to explain.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fishjie on November 11, 2011, 02:19:50 PM
Let's see, my choice would be burning in hell for an eternity, or spending an eternity in heaven with a douchebag.

i think i'd prefer burning.   
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Truth OT on November 11, 2011, 02:23:05 PM
Aren't we all tired of debating on existence of God?
We all know nobody has a rock solid evidence on either case.

Let's start something new.
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.
Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior?

Why and why not?

See what you made me do! Got me wasting my time posting at you in a dead thread........Don't jump ship again on me.



When you ask such a question as “If God exists,” it’s necessary to clarify exactly what you mean. I assume you are referring to the God of the Bible, so I’ll answer as if that is in fact the case. But first, we must consider that by accepting God as presented in the books of the Bible, we must first accept the Bible as being true, accurate, and inerrant. If it is not, then its contents cannot be fully trusted and basing anything off of its contents as if it offered a solid foundation proves not only foolish, but problematic in various ways. Furthermore, if God exists, how do we know that the God that exists is in fact the God of the Bible? The point of what I’m getting at is that it is not so much God that is the focus, but rather the Bible that tells of God. I can tell you from experience that virtually no one here believes or accepts that the Bible is in fact the inspired Word of God as is fails, in almost every observably way in being representative of a writing inspired by an immeasurably wise, immeasurably powerful being that wished to communicate clearly and effectively with our species through its pages. In other words, if God were to exist and wished to inspire a book, HE WOULD HAVE DONE BETTER than the Bible.
Now, to your questions……

IF God as described in the scriptures exists I would fear, respect, and have a deep burning desire to question His actions and reasoning as it pertains to the lives and the suffering endured by those who he had not chosen as “vessels of honor” that would inherit eternal life. It seems pointless to me for God to give life to someone in an orphaned state in war torn region where disease, pain, and famine are what makes up the person’s daily routine, and they never get to hear about how to attain salvation or even know that there is something they can be saved from. At the same time I would be grateful, immeasurably so that God created me and allowed me to be of the chosen who’d learn of salvation and the means to attain it. I would definitely accept God’s Anointed King, Jesus, because not doing so would be foolish and suicidal.       

*disclaimer* (I do not believe that the Bible teaches that salvation = Heaven and not receiving salvation = Hell. I believe it teaches that those who are not ultimately saved from the wages of sin will die a 2nd death having no hope of living eternally anywhere, much less Happy Bliss Land.)
1.   What exactly is the way of salvation? What are people able to be saved from specifically? As best I can tell from reading the scriptures old, new, and even non Abrahamic, death is the ultimate fate that one can be saved from. According to the Bible the wages of sin is death, but in Jesus it is possible to attain the gift of eternal life, meaning salvation in the ultimate sense means being gifted with eternal life. But what is the process? That is an area where the Bible is not as clear as a message given from GOD should be. The Christian religion tells us that one must believe in Jesus to be saved, BUT scriptures such as Luke 10:25-29, that are supposed quotes of Jesus himself, do not say as much. According to Jesus in Luke 10 as well as texts like Matthew 25:34-40, he is quoted as saying that receiving everlasting life and a place in his kingdom are awarded based on how one loves and treats God and one’s fellow man explaining that doing good to people equates with doing do to and serving Jesus. Nowhere do those texts even mention faith in Christ as a necessity for salvation and life. Is that what you believe is necessary for salvation and eternal life? Why or why not?

2.   See paragraph above 1.

3.   I’d accept Jesus because he was the king and ruler and if I wished to live eternally within the realm of his kingdom, then what other choice would I have? I’d have love and respect for Jesus as well because according to the scriptures he would have been king whether or not he suffered and made a way for me and mine to have eternal life, yet he choose to suffer anyway. I can appreciate the love and consideration.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 02:40:42 PM
Fun hypothetical.  I'm just glad none of it's true.

Yes.  Good question.  Pointless, but interesting. 

I'm amazed that no one else is biting (perhaps I missed a post?).

So everyone else would accept eternal damnation rather than submit to the most powerful thing in the universe?  And in fact the creator itself?  You would go against the universe itself?  Just to be stubborn?  Frankly, I don't believe it.

I think either the actuality of the consequences have not set in or you're not treating the question seriously.

I remember, concerning waterboarding, when one news reporter was incredulous about "how bad it could be".  He didn't last 10 seconds.  And that's not burning in hell fire without respite for all eternity.

In fact, I don't think its even possible for any human to grasp just how terrifying hell really would be.

If God existed, I believe there would be no dissenters.  ZERO.  It would be impossible.  The whole universe would beat to a single drum. 
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Alzael on November 11, 2011, 02:47:09 PM

Yes.  Good question.  Pointless, but interesting. 

I'm amazed that no one else is biting (perhaps I missed a post?).

So everyone else would accept eternal damnation rather than submit to the most powerful thing in the universe?  And in fact the creator itself?  You would go against the universe itself?  Just to be stubborn?  Frankly, I don't believe it.


I think you severely lack an understanding about people then, if you really find it that hard to believe that humans are that stubborn.


If God existed, I believe there would be no dissenters.  ZERO.  It would be impossible.  The whole universe would beat to a single drum. 

 

This would be true,in that if god existed it would render free will impossible.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 03:12:17 PM
I think you severely lack an understanding about people then, if you really find it that hard to believe that humans are that stubborn.

You are correct.  I do not understand people. 

This would be true,in that if god existed it would render free will impossible.

Of course, and a million other reasons God is an impossibility.
In order to play the game, you have to give in a little to the intent of the question.
Otherwise, why hold a hypothetical discussion at all?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Alzael on November 11, 2011, 03:28:07 PM

Of course, and a million other reasons God is an impossibility.
In order to play the game, you have to give in a little to the intent of the question.
Otherwise, why hold a hypothetical discussion at all?

I was not denying the hypothetical intent. Merely pointing out that your statement is true only if there is no free will.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Astreja on November 11, 2011, 03:47:28 PM
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.  Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior? Why and why not?

Absolutely not.  Not for any reason whatsoever.

I simply can't trust the ethics or motives or veracity of a god that would require acceptance of a proxy blood sacrifice, with the penalty for noncompliance being eternal torture.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Xero-Kill on November 11, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
If the god described in the bible were proven to exist, I would indeed believe know that he existed... I would NOT however fall to my knees in worship. I would work to oppose him with all my finite power, however pathetic such an attempt might ultimately prove to be. I would rather die fighting such a tyrant than simply drop to me knees in terror at his might and capricious rage. I would rather suffer for eternity for the sake of my own people than to ever kneel before a maniacal, narcissistic, and petulant being as is described in the bible.   
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 04:24:04 PM
I simply can't trust the ethics or motives or veracity of a god that would require acceptance of a proxy blood sacrifice, with the penalty for noncompliance being eternal torture.

So you would rather burn for all time than change your mind?

I guess I really don't understand people. 
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
If the god described in the bible were proven to exist, I would indeed believe know that he existed... I would NOT however fall to my knees in worship. I would work to oppose him with all my finite power, however pathetic such an attempt might ultimately prove to be. I would rather die fighting such a tyrant than simply drop to me knees in terror at his might and capricious rage. I would rather suffer for eternity for the sake of my own people than to ever kneel before a maniacal, narcissistic, and petulant being as is described in the bible.   

And you would suffer eternally for no reason because you would know that all your efforts were totally pointless.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fishjie on November 11, 2011, 04:28:00 PM
Fun hypothetical.  I'm just glad none of it's true.

Yes.  Good question.  Pointless, but interesting. 

I'm amazed that no one else is biting (perhaps I missed a post?).

So everyone else would accept eternal damnation rather than submit to the most powerful thing in the universe?  And in fact the creator itself?  You would go against the universe itself?  Just to be stubborn?  Frankly, I don't believe it.

I think either the actuality of the consequences have not set in or you're not treating the question seriously.

I remember, concerning waterboarding, when one news reporter was incredulous about "how bad it could be".  He didn't last 10 seconds.  And that's not burning in hell fire without respite for all eternity.

In fact, I don't think its even possible for any human to grasp just how terrifying hell really would be.

If God existed, I believe there would be no dissenters.  ZERO.  It would be impossible.  The whole universe would beat to a single drum.

Well like I said in my response, either choice would be eternal torture.   Either you're in heaven with a giant dbag, or you're burning.    How is heaven better?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: One Above All on November 11, 2011, 04:31:28 PM
So everyone else would accept eternal damnation rather than submit to the most powerful thing in the universe?  And in fact the creator itself?  You would go against the universe itself?  Just to be stubborn?

I'm sorry, but this is just pathetic. You are pathetic. If you would rather submit yourself to the most evil being in all of existence rather than fight against it, you are nothing but a selfish coward, plain and simple. You are no better than the self-described "liberal" theists who don't do anything to stop the fundies from discriminating against and/or killing whomever they damn well please.

This is not about being stubborn. I admit that sometimes I can be stubborn, but this is about fighting against evil. I would gladly go to hell for the rest of eternity if it meant that even a single life form in the universe would be free from the tyranny of such a being.

EDIT: So, to answer the OP: No, I would not. For me to consider worshiping a being it must first have three properties - Omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence. The god of the Bible lacks all three (iron chariots, not knowing where A&E were and killing children for what their parents did).
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 04:34:09 PM
Well like I said in my response, either choice would be eternal torture.   Either you're in heaven with a giant dbag, or you're burning.    How is heaven better?

Seriously?  OK.  Take one of two options: 1) have a conversation with someone you strongly dislike while sitting in a hammock on a beach on a sunny day surrounded by your loved ones sipping your beverage of choice, or 2) hold a lighter under your outstretched hand.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Astreja on November 11, 2011, 04:37:12 PM
So you would rather burn for all time than change your mind?

FD, when dealing with a hypothetical god that uses threats of torture, there is no guarantee that it won't burn Me anyway just for shits and giggles.  I have nothing to gain by playing along with such a monster.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 04:37:50 PM
You are pathetic.

Yes I am.  Compared to the most powerful entity in the universe (or to you, apparently).  To not accept that is short sighted.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Omen on November 11, 2011, 04:39:42 PM
So you would rather burn for all time than change your mind?

FD, when dealing with a hypothetical god that uses threats of torture, there is no guarantee that it won't burn Me anyway just for shits and giggles.  I have nothing to gain by playing along with such a monster.

That's a good point.  Its behavior is so erratic anyway that there is no telling when it will condemn you or even why, since it can and does totally make anything up on a whim.  The literal Heavenly Inspired and Divine North Korean State that Hitchens often describes.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 04:41:37 PM
So you would rather burn for all time than change your mind?

FD, when dealing with a hypothetical god that uses threats of torture, there is no guarantee that it won't burn Me anyway just for shits and giggles.  I have nothing to gain by playing along with such a monster.

I agree it would be a terrible life.  But the rules to get into heaven, or whatever, would be ingrained in us via creationism.  So you would naturally follow them.  If God existed, that means God created the universe, which means everyone would love him.  Perhaps we would not have free will.  I'm OK with that.  Because to choose any other option would be as foolish as the theists in this universe.  What you want or think would no longer matter at all.  You would be a robot.  And yes, you would love the evil bastard. 
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Astreja on November 11, 2011, 04:46:32 PM
If God existed, that means God created the universe, which means everyone would love him.

Uh... That's a chain non sequitur, FD.  A god could exist, yet not be the creator of the universe... And I really don't know how you got "everyone would love him" out of that, either.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 04:50:13 PM
fungusdrool:
Quote
So you would rather burn for all time than change your mind?

I guess I really don't understand people.
It's difficult to see how one can change one's mind in this way.

If I was a good German in Nazi Germany, I can see how I might go along with their madness to a certain extent, through an instinct for self-preservation or whatever - but I don't think I would change my mind about them.

Likewise with God; if I already perceive him in the image of Hitler, you can't suddenly perceive him as the God of Love, not even if your life depended on it.

And an omniscient God would know if you were faking.

So, FungusDrool, you're just as scewed as we are  :).
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 04:55:30 PM
If God existed, that means God created the universe, which means everyone would love him.

Uh... That's a chain non sequitur, FD.  A god could exist, yet not be the creator of the universe... And I really don't know how you got "everyone would love him" out of that, either.

Again, playing the game from the OP, the Christian God is a creator. 
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Astreja on November 11, 2011, 04:57:00 PM
Again, playing the game from the OP, the Christian God is a creator.

Fair enough, but there's no automatic and universal love of a creator.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 05:00:25 PM
Again, playing the game from the OP, the Christian God is a creator.

Fair enough, but there's no automatic and universal love of a creator.

Well, we both are speculating here.  I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it.  We would be designed to love it.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Omen on November 11, 2011, 05:02:57 PM
Eloi, didn't really expect everyone to address your what if question as if your god was a deranged sociopath did you?

Not getting the scripted response you want out the conversation are you?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Astreja on November 11, 2011, 05:10:27 PM
Well, we both are speculating here.  I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it.  We would be designed to love it.

Interesting thought, but what would be the value of such "love" to the god?  Would it not be simpler just to remain in one's celestial paradise, not create any universes or little blue planets, and set up some automatic praise-dispensing mechanism?

We're crossing into that nebulous topic "God X gave us free will so that we, ourselves could choose to do {whatever it is God X wanted us to do in the first place}."  This puzzle has a lot of relevance to the OP, which asks in effect if we would buy a predesigned "salvation" package that only comes in one colour/size/shape.  Putting aside the free will/determinism debate and focusing just on the desires and intentions of the Biblical deity, the whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 05:11:50 PM
I would gladly go to hell for the rest of eternity if it meant that even a single life form in the universe would be free from the tyranny of such a being.

Me too.  However, if god existed, no life form would be free no matter what you did.

So tell me, Lucifer, how would you, as one not pathetic, affect the postulated God? 

And good job with the rampant emotions.  Really serving as a model for atheism there chief.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 05:13:03 PM
Well, we both are speculating here.  I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it.  We would be designed to love it.

Interesting thought, but what would be the value of such "love" to the god?  Would it not be simpler just to remain in one's celestial paradise, not create any universes or little blue planets, and set up some automatic praise-dispensing mechanism?

We're crossing into that nebulous topic "God X gave us free will so that we, ourselves could choose to do {whatever it is God X wanted us to do in the first place}."  This puzzle has a lot of relevance to the OP, which asks in effect if we would buy a predesigned "salvation" package that only comes in one colour/size/shape.  Putting aside the free will/determinism debate and focusing just on the desires and intentions of the Biblical deity, the whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Of course not.  There is no God.  There would be no value in having us worship it, but that wasn't the question.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 05:14:16 PM
So, there have been 34 replies on this thread, and no response as yet from ELOI, the OP?

So what's going on here?



Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: dloubet on November 11, 2011, 05:19:07 PM
When we're talking about proving the existence of the Christian god, are we just talking about the acceptance of a supreme being or everything in the bible? Because if we're just talking about proving the existence of a god, then heaven, hell, demons and devils, and afterlives are still unproven. We would have to possess omniscience to prove that the god has omniscience, there would have to be proof that it created the universe and just didn't lie about that, there would be a host of things that would be radically different about the universe we know for the whole of the bible to be true. So seeing as this hypothetical scenario is occurring in a completely different universe from this one, it's hard for me to answer it.

But if I accepted that there was the bible-god, then there would have to be a Satan as well, and I would thus be paralyzed. I would not be able to tell if anything supposedly from god was not actually from the Satan character. I could not trust anything. I could not trust the bible for it might have been written by the Satan character. I could not trust the church for they may be Satan's mouthpiece. I could not trust voices in my head or even gut feelings for they might be placed there by a malevolent supernatural being with unknown powers of persuasion.

The only thing I could do is pretend that they didn't exist and carry on as I am now, an atheist, and let the chips fall where they may.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: One Above All on November 11, 2011, 05:23:12 PM
I would gladly go to hell for the rest of eternity if it meant that even a single life form in the universe would be free from the tyranny of such a being.

Me too.  However, if god existed, no life form would be free no matter what you did.

Ignoring the non-sequitur there, along with the obvious contradiction, I don't care. I would fight against it until the end of time.

So tell me, Lucifer, how would you, as one not pathetic, affect the postulated God? 

Iron chariots would be a way of doing it. Another way would be to try to get people who aren't selfish to see that this being is evil, and therefore doesn't deserve worship. I could conceive of many more means for the same goal if I had an eternity to think.

And good job with the rampant emotions.  Really serving as a model for atheism there chief.

First of all, I am not a model of atheism nor am I a representation of all atheists. If all atheists were like me we would have a lot of problems[1]. Atheists are individuals; there is not a single living being in the whole universe that can represent us as a whole. Second, I feel emotions, just like every other human and just like a lot of other species. I expressed them in a way that was not harmful, as everyone should. Third, you call that rampant? You have no idea what rampant is. And finally, fourth: Never put me as a role model for anything, regardless of how good/bad you think I am.
 1. Feel free to interpret this as you wish.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ungod on November 11, 2011, 05:33:54 PM
Playing the old shell game on the stoopid atheists, eh. Since Jesus IS God, let's rephrase it HONESTLY instead of DECEPTIVELY, which makes it, "If God Exists, would you accept God as your savior?
Savior from what - the Hell God created?

This is EXACTLY like a Mafia protection racket - kiss our ass, and pay, and we won't torch your business.

Try your "clever" tricks on some Sunday School class.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Alzael on November 11, 2011, 05:39:57 PM

So you would rather burn for all time than change your mind?

I guess I really don't understand people.

Yes, and this is your problem.

For someone like me, and probably a lot of others here, the worst thing I could imagine would be giving in to this brutal and despicable god-figure. Serving hm would be worse than anything else, because it would be a death of the spirit and the soul. It would mean serving the greatest evil in existence and surrounding myself with it for all eternity.

So the suffering of hell would actually be the lesser punishment.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Historicity on November 11, 2011, 06:10:57 PM
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.  Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior? Why and why not?

Absolutely not.  Not for any reason whatsoever.

I simply can't trust the ethics or motives or veracity of a god that would require acceptance of a proxy blood sacrifice, with the penalty for noncompliance being eternal torture.

So do you see it this way?
(http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/scream/scream_5.gif)
(http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/scream/scream_6.gif)

That's from The Jack Chick Parody Archive (http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/archive.html)
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 06:14:07 PM
Quote
Serving hm would be worse than anything else, because it would be a death of the spirit and the soul
Hey, I thought souls were imaginary, like gods?

So what exactly do you mean, Alzael, when you talk of spirits and souls?

Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 06:20:10 PM
So the suffering of hell would actually be the lesser punishment.

Can you admit that if God existed, other aspects of the universe would have to be different?
We're just talking back and forth, but it's completely pointless.
 
I have my assumptions about how things would change and everyone else has theirs. 

But as the existence of the god of the bible is impossible, we can't really argue using logic about how that universe would work.

You just feel very strongly about something that doesn't concern me at all.
I don't really hate Christians or God, I just believe God is imaginary and Christians are deluded.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 06:22:34 PM
Thank you for your honest answers.

By looking at your posts, it seems that it doesn't even matter even if God healed amputees or not.
Whether God exists or not you guys will not go with the bible God's salvation plan, would you?

Then let me ask you another question.

Why the question "WWGHA" is so important to you or anybody else?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 06:25:49 PM
Why the question "WWGHA" is so important to you or anybody else?

This site is brilliant because it can capitulate everything else to the theists and still is sufficient to show there is no God given this one point.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Alzael on November 11, 2011, 06:26:27 PM
Quote
Serving hm would be worse than anything else, because it would be a death of the spirit and the soul
I thought souls were imaginary, like gods?

So what exactly do you mean, Alzael, when you talk of spirits and souls?

I mean as in a metaphorical sense. As in a death of the self (that which makes you who are as well as an individual) and a betrayal of the principles that one lives by, in favour of submitting to the will of another (in this case a very evil being and dickish being).

And to answer your implied question, no, I do not attribute any supernatural elements to such things. It's merely that the writer part of me has always found the spirit/soul metaphor appealing.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 06:31:23 PM
Eloi:
Quote
Thank you for your honest answers.

By looking at your posts, it seems that it doesn't even matter even if God healed amputees or not.
Whether God exists or not you guys will not go with the bible God's salvation plan, would you?

Then let me ask you another question
No. That's not how it works here.

Respond to the people who responded to you. Not necessarily individually, a general comment would do - but at least more than a couple of sentences.

Then, you can ask another question....
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 06:34:18 PM
@Fungus drool moose.

'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society' which tells us what kind of monsters and liars we are.

Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: curiousgirl on November 11, 2011, 06:38:57 PM
Why the question "WWGHA" is so important to you or anybody else?

Isn't the answer painfully obvious? Think of Occam's razor, then try to answer WWGHA for yourself. Then you will see why it is so important to us.

In the meantime, try to respond to our posts.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 06:39:44 PM
@Fungus drool moose.

'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society' which tells us what kind of monsters and liars we are.

I think it's not really a matter of honesty as much as not having a chip on my shoulder.  There is so much anger and hatred here. 

Moose Drool is an awesome beer.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Alzael on November 11, 2011, 06:40:19 PM
So the suffering of hell would actually be the lesser punishment.

Can you admit that if God existed, other aspects of the universe would have to be different?

Naturally, if god actually existed then things would be different than the reality that we live in now. It's not really relevant to the point though. It wouldn't change what the biblegod is. Just how our own reality would be. He would still be a horrible, evil creature, in my opinion. It's just that now he could turn me into salt when I said it.

In a reality that allowed free will (which wouldn't exist if this god was real of course), I would never ever worship him.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 06:59:15 PM
Christians and atheists musta have different belief system.

Are you basically saying "I would much rather endure eternal hell, so that I don't have to go to heaven?"

That is just mind blowing.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: curiousgirl on November 11, 2011, 07:08:23 PM
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 07:25:41 PM
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

How about women's rights, human values, skepticism, equality, humanism........

No belief system, period? Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 07:26:43 PM
Eloi:
Quote
@Fungus drool moose.

'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society' which tells us what kind of monsters and liars we are.

1. Is that addressed to me? I'm not a moose, I'm a gnu; of the family bovidae, rather than cervidae. Same kingdom, phylum, class and order, I agree; but different families. 

2. What is the source of your quote, 'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society'? Google can't find it.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fungusdrool on November 11, 2011, 07:32:55 PM
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

How about women's rights, human values, skepticism, equality, humanism........

No belief system, period? Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.

Can't speak for curious girl with high confidence, but I'd imagine she meant no consistent belief system.

Personally, I believe a ton of stuff. 

I used to doubt all knowledge other than that I existed. 
Then I got into Buddhism and was shocked to learn that not even I existed. 
At least not as a permanent unchanging self.

Now I hold all knowledge as suspect but believe everything I think I know.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Add Homonym on November 11, 2011, 07:35:25 PM
Aren't we all tired of debating on existence of God?
We all know nobody has a rock solid evidence on either case.

Let's start something new.
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.
Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior?

Why and why not?

There is a problem with the assumption that evidence of God changes anything. If evidence was important, God would supply it, so it is obviously not.

Therefore, accepting Jesus as your saviour is problematic. I could say that I accept Jesus, but it may not turn out that it meant anything. I could do good works, thinking that I'm honouring Jesus, but that may not mean anything.

How can you love a spirit that seems to turn up for some people and not others, according to their say so?

Are you saying that proof that God exists also comes with proof that I'm being saved by Jesus? Otherwise, your question is a fallacy.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on November 11, 2011, 07:41:21 PM
I think the question of WWGHA is an important one which does, in fact, tie into this whole topic.

You  see, IF God existed, he would have the power to heal amputees. He would have the power to make the lives of believers objectively, measurably better than those of people who rejected him. He would, one would imagine, do something about the vast amounts of suffering that go on in the world. If he was omnipotent and benevolent as the Bible would have us believe.

I'm not talking about making God into a "genie in a bottle", as some like to claim we try to do...Just to maybe do something about, oh, mass starvation, tusnamis, tornadoes and the like. You can go into the rhetoric about how Satan has dominion on the earth and whatnot, but if this is so, then the verses in the Bible where God promises to answer prayers become pointless.

So, IF God existed, a god who would actually do some of the things he has promised might be a deity actually worth worshipping. It would be clear that the relationship with him DID give a measurable advantage in life. And there likely would be only one religion, so the chances of people being damned to hell for simple disbelief would be neglegible.

If God were to truly love us, wouldn't he try to set things up so that all these things would be clear? It would still not have any impact on free will...anyone who was stubborn enough to turn their back on him could still do that.

edited to add: there would, of course, still be the problem that even those stubborn holdouts would still be destined for everlasting torment-which I can't imagine anyone deserves for anything. But if the entire population could honestly experience palpable examples of god's  love and benevolence (which an omnipotent deity could easily provide to each person), I'd imagine the holdouts would be very few and far between.

Worshipping a god who insists on remaining hidden then punishes those who don't find him is a whole different kettle of fish, as such a god effectively damns the majority of his creation by remaining undetectable. And such a tyrant is NOT worthy of worship.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: wright on November 11, 2011, 07:49:36 PM
Well, the literal god of the Bible would, as others have already pointed out, be a sadistic, all-powerful lunatic. I certainly would not worship such a being; even to go through the motions would be pointless, given such its omnipotence.

Though Literal Biblegod would also be riddled with contradictions, so it might just be possible to thwart him under certain circumstances (iron chariots, anybody?).

And Eloi, you really, really need to grasp this: being an atheist means having no belief in a god or gods. Period. The regulars on this forum are actually pretty varied; witness the exchange between fungusdrool and others on this very thread.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: curiousgirl on November 11, 2011, 08:10:21 PM
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

How about women's rights, human values, skepticism, equality, humanism........

No belief system, period? Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.

LOL, just like a theist to misunderstand me. Your Christianity is based on a belief/faith in Jesus. For atheism, there isn't a unifying faith, rather a lack thereof. Of course we can believe in women's rights, but is atheism based on that? NO. We decide who we want to be, and what causes we want to fight for. We're not cookie-cutter shaped sheeple.

Have to say your little play on words was cheesy.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 08:36:07 PM
fungusdrool:
Quote
Now I hold all knowledge as suspect but believe everything I think I know.
Heh-heh. That's very good, I'm going to use that...
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 08:45:34 PM
Heh-heh. That's very good, I'm going to use that...
There is so much anger and hatred here.
Come on Gnu, can't you be more atheist loving?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 11, 2011, 08:46:28 PM
Let me turn this question on its head.  Why should God be limited to just one method of saving people from sin?  If the intent is to save people from sin, then why not have two methods, or three, or many more?  Why limit the methods to arbitrarily say that just this one method, and no other, works?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 11, 2011, 08:56:17 PM
Eloi, please answer my question:

What is the source of your quote, 'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society'?

But why am I bothering, we all see that you have zero interest in pursuing the topic of this thread...
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Add Homonym on November 11, 2011, 09:22:57 PM

What is the source of your quote, 'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society'?


It's a quote from this thread. Google will pick it up in a few minutes, and then you can google it.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: curiousgirl on November 11, 2011, 09:30:25 PM
Just like a butt-hurt theist to twist my words around and use them for his signature.  &)
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Add Homonym on November 11, 2011, 09:44:05 PM
Just like a butt-hurt theist to twist my words around and use them for his signature.  &)

When "they" do that, you "know" that they are "praying" for you. You should feel "privileged".
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: curiousgirl on November 11, 2011, 09:45:41 PM
It's like we've got another SERPENT KILLA/John 3 16 up in here again with the all-caps and the dishonesty.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Add Homonym on November 11, 2011, 09:48:17 PM
It's like we've got another SERPENT KILLA/John 3 16 up in here again with the all-caps and the dishonesty.

Same posting style. We haven't seen Bruce Willis, yet.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI on November 11, 2011, 09:49:21 PM
There is so much anger and hatred here.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: curiousgirl on November 11, 2011, 09:49:45 PM
Eloi put his location as "SIX FEET UNDER." SERPENT KILLA put his/her location as "HEAVEN." A little suspicious to me.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Ambassador Pony on November 11, 2011, 10:59:26 PM
Sock has been banned.

As is often the case, it's disgusting behaviour has brought out the best in some members. I'll stomp on cockroaches like that all day, if it means I can continue to enjoy such quality posts from our members.

Cheers guys!
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 11, 2011, 11:50:58 PM
Same posting style. We haven't seen Bruce Willis, yet.

Well, we do have Joetruth2 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20595.msg455460.html#msg455460)

Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: dloubet on November 12, 2011, 03:14:13 AM
Quote
Are you basically saying "I would much rather endure eternal hell, so that I don't have to go to heaven?"
That is just mind blowing.

Only if you didn't read any of our posts. You know the ones, the ones that characterize the god as a tyrannical psychopathic thug because that's the only way we can interpret the behavior of the thing described in the bible? Once you actually read for comprehension, it's not mind-blowing at all.

Quote
That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

Yep, atheists -- as a whole -- have no belief system. The only thing that all atheists share is a lack of a belief in any gods. Everything else is up for grabs. You can be liberal or conservative, rational or drenched in woo, and as long as you have no god-belief, you're an atheist. There is no other qualification, and one would be hard pressed to argue that a single characteristic constitutes a "system".

Quote
Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.
She simply defined atheism. I think from the context of what she was saying that honest people would understand she was not talking about atheists as individuals, but rather atheists as a whole.

Having said that, it's been my experience that most atheists tend towards rationalism, although it might be hard to figure out which is the cart and which is the horse. It's probably different for different atheists.

And yes, there is a certain amount of anger and hatred here. It's probably because thanks to thousands of years of religious slander, atheists are the most distrusted minority in the US.

Quote
By looking at your posts, it seems that it doesn't even matter even if God healed amputees or not.
Whether God exists or not you guys will not go with the bible God's salvation plan, would you?
Again you ignore our posts where we answer this very question. What you call god's salvation plan, we see as a tyrannical protection racket. If we don't like Al Capon doing it, we certainly aren't going to worship an omnipotent being doing it.

For some reason -- I assume -- you do worship an omnipotent being who runs a protection racket.

And speaking for myself, if the god were demonstrated to exist -- due to a miraculous amputee healing -- it would be the most important piece of information in the universe. I need to know if a god exists, because I need to know that I have to figure out how to destroy it.

Luckily, god seems to only exist in people's imaginations. That's bad enough.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: pingnak on November 12, 2011, 04:15:34 AM
Which god?

I can't answer that question about 'jesus' until you define which god you mean.  The definition for what 'god' is... isn't very clear, after all. 

It would be kinda stupid to hitch my trailer to 'jesus' if 'the' god that existed wasn't associated with that 'jesus' mythology at all.  Maybe 'JHVH' exists, but the Jesus stories were a bunch of crap some cultists made up and/or adapted from other, earlier 'savior' demigod myths.

So maybe one of the demigods roughly matching the 'jesus' mythology exists, but it's 1000+ years older, and not 'Jesus' at all, would worshiping something 'like' that demigod be 'close enough' to satisfy it?

But what if 'god' exists, and so do a whole bunch of other gods and goddesses?  Why not?  Then it would make a lot more sense to do some shopping.  Especially with 'eternity' on the line.

But since no proof (or even evidence) exists one way or another for ANY god, we're left in a permanent holding pattern.  Why commit to any given god when all the others will burn us or rape us or eat us or whatever for eternity for guessing wrong?
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: natlegend on November 12, 2011, 04:50:56 AM
Yahweh is a sexist c**t. No. He can go f**k himself. He is not worthy of my attention, let alone worship.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: One Above All on November 12, 2011, 04:55:23 AM
Yahweh is a sexist c**t. No. He can go f**k himself. He is not worthy of my attention, let alone worship.

Too late; the OP is another sock of John 3:16.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: natlegend on November 12, 2011, 05:06:11 AM
Yahweh is a sexist c**t. No. He can go f**k himself. He is not worthy of my attention, let alone worship.

Too late; the OP is another sock of John 3:16.

Theists, so damned hypocritical and plain evil. Just like their fictional gods.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: kcrady on November 12, 2011, 05:57:34 AM
So everyone else would accept eternal damnation rather than submit to the most powerful thing in the universe?  And in fact the creator itself?  You would go against the universe itself?  Just to be stubborn?  Frankly, I don't believe it.

I think either the actuality of the consequences have not set in or you're not treating the question seriously.

I remember, concerning waterboarding, when one news reporter was incredulous about "how bad it could be".  He didn't last 10 seconds.  And that's not burning in hell fire without respite for all eternity.

In fact, I don't think its even possible for any human to grasp just how terrifying hell really would be.

If God existed, I believe there would be no dissenters.  ZERO.  It would be impossible.  The whole universe would beat to a single drum.

Since we're presumably talking about the god of the Bible, rather than the god of "orthodox" Christian theology (they are not the same), there are some "facts" you are not taking into consideration:

1. Yahweh is not the only god, and some of the others are comparable in power.

The Hebrew Scriptures make frequent references to other gods as real entities.  The commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" presupposes the existence of other gods.  In the Book of Daniel, there is an account where an angel comes to deliver a message to the prophet in response to prayer, but he was held back for 21 days by "the Prince of Persia" (Daniel 10:13).  This situation continued until "Michael, your prince" (spiritual "prince" of Judah) arrived with reinforcements.  The battle with the Prince of Persia continued, and would continue "until the Prince of Grecia (Greece) comes" (10:20).  It is the most basic element of strategy that one does not engage an enemy in pitched battle if the enemy has overwhelming superiority.  If that is the case, you employ hit-and-run guerrilla tactics.  The very fact that Yahweh needs messengers, and they can be interdicted, is proof that he's not invincible. 

In the 27th and 28th chapters of Ezekiel, Yahweh sets himself against the city of Tyre and its "covering cherub" (spiritual patron deity).  He promises that Nebuchadnezzar will loot and destroy the city.  When this fails, he promises Nebuchadnezzar "the treasures of Egypt" as his "wages."  See Ezekiel 29:17-20.  Nebuchadnezzar also failed to conquer Egypt.  So, the guardian of Tyre, and the gods of Egypt both managed to foil the alliance of Yahweh and Babylon.

In the New Testament, Paul makes several references to warfare against "principalities and powers in heavenly places."  Note the plural here.  He is not referring to warfare against a single Satanic principality[1] in the underworld.  Paul's "spiritual warfare" was ongoing, centuries after the events in the Book of Daniel.

So here we see that according to the Bible, there are other spiritual powers that can meet Yawheh head-on in battle, and even defeat him.  And no catalog of Yahweh's vincibility is complete without this one:

Quote
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

--Judges 1:19

So, not only are there rival spiritual powers who can match Yahweh, fairly rudimentary human technology can do so as well.  Yahweh's "theopolitical" situation is not actually very strong.  He's at war with multiple adversaries, at least some of whom are peer competitors, and has a long-running insurgency[2] within his own realm.  Then there's nuclear-armed humanity...

2. Humans are stronger than Yahweh's worshipers would like to admit.

In the Garden of Eden, Yahweh's worry after humans ate the Fruit of Knowledge was not that they would die as he claimed, but that they wouldn't.  If they partook of the Tree of Life, they would complete their ascent to divinity, so he was forced to drive them out of the Garden.  Right at the start, Yahweh came within a hair's breadth of being completely pwned.  In the 11th chapter of Genesis, Yahweh fears the potential exhibited by the scientific, mathematical, and engineering capability inherent in an astronomically-aligned mud-brick ziggurat.  He says, "Nothing they set out to do will be withheld from them."  To prevent this, he scrambles human language (which would later prove to be a major hindrance to his "spread the Gospel of Jesus" plan).  Today, we have far more impressive technology than the king of Shinar.  Not to mention the rapid development of natural-language translation software which threatens to defeat Yawheh's curse in the context of a global human family united by instantaneous communication.[3]

It is even possible that a physically fit man may be as strong as Yahweh.  In the Book of Genesis, chapter 32:24-30, Jacob wrestles with Yahweh all night long,[4] and Yahweh could not prevail.  He had to "cheat" by using his powers to dislocate Jacob's hip.  Then he asked Jacob to let him go because it was daybreak,[5]Indicating, perhaps, a limit on the time he could remain in corporeal form, or some other sort of vulnerability that made an escape from Jacob imperative.  Jacob still refuses to release him, and is able to extort a blessing even with his dislocated hip joint.  Yahweh actually admits defeat in verse 28!

3. Yahweh may already be defeated.

Yahweh is clearly a lousy strategist and tactician.  Like most other supervillains, he likes to brag about his Big Plans before he's accomplished them.  It is abundantly clear in the New Testament that Yahweh intended to hold the Battle of Armageddon within the lifetime of the generation of Jesus and his disciples.  Every NT author who writes on the subject of eschatology claims, often repeatedly, that it's all due to happen Real Soon Now.  The Book of Revelation was not written to modern Americans.  It was written to seven churches in Asia Minor that existed around 90 C.E.  Says so right there in the opening chapters.

Yahweh's Big Battle Plan was to appear at Megiddo with a massed cavalry force, to face Roman legions and cavalry.  If he were to employ such tactics today, against modern armored infantry, air power, precision-guided munitions, drone aircraft, and nuclear weapons, he and his minions would be massacred.

However, the main thing to think about here is that Yahweh's plan for Armageddon failed.  For some reason, he was not able to open the dimensional portal and bring his forces through in time for the High Priest Caiaphas to "see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 26:64).  The Bible obviously does not offer us an explanation for this, beyond the feeble "explanation" offered in II Peter 3:8.  The author goes on, in the next few verses, to re-emphasize that the eschaton is at hand, that his readers should "look for" Yahweh's predictions to be fulfilled.  Even here, believers are not told that it will be thousands of years, so it's time for Christians to start building enduring institutions and planning for a long future.

One possible explanation would be that Yahweh is actually constrained by his Prophecy Checklists, like a wizard trapped in his own spell.  He could not, for example, predict a Battle of Armageddon (the Valley of Megiddo), and launch his attack at Smyrna or Byzantium.  If this is the case, then if his Prophecy Checklist is stopped, then he is stopped.  Jesus predicted that the Jewish Temple would be destroyed, that "not one stone would be left upon another."  If this hypothesis is correct, then any spiritual opponent of Yahweh could have defeated him simply by whispering in Emperor Tiberias' ear, after the conquest of Jerusalem in the Jewish War: "See that wall of their Temple there?  Leave it up."  The continued existence of the Wailing Wall is a failure of Jesus' prediction concerning the Temple, which was part of his eschatological scheme.

Now of course, the whole Christian prophetic scheme has been demolished so completely that Evangelical prophecy-mongers have to postulate ridiculously absurd scenarios to try to make Yahweh's plan work out.  Now there has to be a "revived Roman Empire" with a leader who abolishes all religions but worship of him, while simultaneously rebuilding a Jewish Temple and re-instituting Jewish sacrifices to Yahweh, so that a mere three and a half years later he can defile said Temple[6] in imitation of Antiochus Epiphanes.  Meanwhile, in reality, the Jews have had 2,000 years to "move on" from the whole animal sacrifice thing, and couldn't re-establish it if they wanted to, due to the existence of the Dome of the Rock.  Europe is going bankrupt rather than rising toward world domination, there are whole continents full of people and a nuclear-armed superpower that the Plan doesn't even account for, and nobody uses horse cavalry anymore.

4. It is not likely that Yahweh can send anyone to Hell before his post-eschatological "Last Judgment."

The Bible is notoriously murky and self-contradictory when it comes to what happens after death.  In the Hebrew Scriptures, there are almost no intimations of any afterlife, good or bad.  In the ninth chapter of Ecclesiastes, we find an explicit rejection of the notion of an afterlife, or any reward after death (9:5-6).  In the New Testament, people are only condemned to Hell after the Last Judgment, which occurs after all of the other items on the Prophecy Checklist.  The only indication to the contrary is the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)[7], which is given as part of a discourse with other parables, and is thus likely to be a parable itself, rather than a description of real events.

So, if it is the case that Yawheh has already been defeated, or he has been constrained by the failure of his Prophecy Checklist, it follows that Hell is not an inescapable consequence of opposing Yahweh.  Since there are other gods, it is possible that by allying with them, we could end up in one of their hereafters, or (if Yahweh somehow has a monopoly on afterlives now) for all practical intents and purposes, none.

5. Heaven isn't what it's cracked up to be.

The very choice that you consider to be impossible--rejecting "Heaven" and facing the prospect of Hell by rebelling against Yahweh--is one that was ostensibly made, on an informed basis, by Lucifer and a third of Yahweh's angels.  Unlike us, they have more than a book to go on.  The sixth chapter of Genesis tells us of a second angelic rebellion.  "Sons of God" (a term used for angels every other time it appears in the Hebrew Scriptures) find human women attractive, and defect from Heaven to marry them and settle down on Earth.  Considering that the human society at this time was supposedly extremely violent and barbaric,[8] it would be astonishing for these angels to prefer it to the sublime perfection of Heaven, if Heaven were such a flawless Utopia.  Nor can we argue that the angels preferred Earth because they wanted to be savages among savages.  The act of settling down, marrying, and raising children (as opposed to just running around, raping and murdering at will) presupposes a desire for stable, civilized life. 

In the Book of Revelation, we are told that after Armageddon, Satan will be confined for a thousand years, and Yahweh/Jesus will rule the Earth directly.  At the end of that time, Satan will be released.  This causes the entire world to rise in revolution, so that "the camp of the saints" is surrounded at Jerusalem, at which point Yahweh rains fire down from Heaven to destroy the rebels.  This is actually quite an astonishing claim, coming as it does from one of Yahweh's own propagandists, as a prediction.  After a thousand years of Jesus' "perfect" governance, the governed can be expected to rise in rebellion at the first opportunity?  Really?  These people would know that Satan had been defeated before, yet they rush to join him as soon as he's freed, and follow him into battle.  Such a scenario can only be the desperate act of an oppressed people willing to seize any chance for freedom.

Yawheh's own propagandists are repeatedly forced to admit that his "kingdom" is far from glorious and blissful.  Angels and humans with direct experience of Yahweh his regime rebel, and are expected (predicted) to rebel, whenever the opportunity presents itself.  Putting all this together, the time to fight is now, when we have a global technological civilization armed with advanced weaponry, when the "spiritual warfare" against other spiritual "principalities and powers in heavenly places" (i.e., potential allies for humanity) still rages, and Yahweh has yet to subdue an angelic insurgency, despite his forces outnumbering the rebels two to one. 

Another thing to consider is the fact that now there would be many thousands, if not millions of people currently in Heaven who have experience of living in free societies (i.e., Western Christians who lived from the decades prior to the American Revolution[9] to the most recently dead).  While these people surely entered Heaven[10] as loyal followers of Yahweh, the angels were also initially loyal, and they never knew freedom.  In a war against Yahweh, we should not dismiss the possibility of an allied fifth column within Heaven itself.
 1. Jesus attempts to rebut the hypothesis that he casts out demons by Satanic power on the basis that such would represent division within Satan's kingdom, implying that such division does not exist.  Of course, he does not address the possibility that he and Satan could have been running a con together...
 2. Supposedly--I think "Satan and his demons" as Yahweh's secret police running a sting operation makes more sense of the Biblical text, but that's another post
 3. Also, Yahweh's orbital surveillance is not as good as ours.  He was unaware of a massive building project until after it was well underway, and had to "come down" and have a look before he realized the true magnitude of the threat.
 4. Biblical slashfiction: it writes itself.
 5. Verse 26.
 6. This must be the Ikea Prefab Temple.
 7. In this story, the man in torment is still able to think and talk.  This implies that the torture is not severe enough to prevent escape attempts and the like.
 8. The amazing long lifespans of the patriarchs, and the secure, division-of-labor society that would have to exist for Noah to be able to build his ark provide strong evidence against the notion of a Hobbesian war of all against all.  Also, Jesus uses the antediluvian world just before the Flood as an example of normalcy--people marrying and giving in marriage, etc., then sudden judgment came upon them.
 9. The American revolutionary movement began as protests demanding the colonists' "rights as Englishmen."  IOW, the idea of human rights was common well before 1776.
 10. If they did--that might also not happen until after the Last Judgment.  On the other hand Paul did claim that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," and Jesus told the penitent thief that "today, you will be with me in Paradise."
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: kcrady on November 12, 2011, 06:37:29 AM
Well, we both are speculating here.  I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it.  We would be designed to love it.

We do not all love Yahweh.  Neither do his own angels.  Therefore, Yahweh is not "the" Creator.  The creation account of Genesis 1 uses the plural of "god" (Elohim).  They speak and act in the plural ("Let us make man in our image").  They create simply and majestically: they speak, and their creations appear.  They create men and women simultaneously, and give them a blessing (no commands or threatened punishments).  In Chapter 2 (starting with verse 4, where the actual dividing line between the two accounts is noticeable), Yahweh is like a junior understudy by comparison.  The Earth, its climate, and plants appear to pre-exist (2:5-6).  He sculpts a man from dirt, then breathes life into it.  He plants a local garden (v.8--really?  Did he use garden tools?), and puts the man in it.  His misogyny is so complete that he doesn't decide to create a woman until after Adam fails to find a compatible mate among the animals.  Then, his method is a clumsy surgery/cloning operation (?!).  So, where the other gods (or all gods combining their powers) can create by speaking things into being, Yahweh has to work as a gardener, sculptor, and surgeon to fumble his way through a local creative effort.  Later we learn that his writ is limited, as Cain can "go out from the presence of the Lord" and build a city, despite having been told by Yahweh that the ground would yield him no produce.  In other words, Cain escaped Yahweh's punishment by crossing a boundary.

Throughout the Bible, Yahweh evinces a striking degree of ignorance about the actual shape and size of the Cosmos, which would not be the case if he were its Creator.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Samuelxcs on November 12, 2011, 06:48:15 AM
I would not, Christianity is a flawed one, there are so many contradictions their real intentions and beliefs could be hidden by them, why? Jesus is the son of someone that demands millions of people to die. Jesus died on the crucifix for  the sins of humanity, but how would that change anything? He rose up from the dead (according to the Bible), was that to people believe in the savior? He died on a crucifix then rose and many believed in the savior. Isn't that forcing beliefs upon people? Maybe people began to believe on their own. There is no reason to follow him anyway. To go to Heaven? "Believe in me...or ELSE!
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: naemhni on November 12, 2011, 07:28:54 AM
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

That is correct, no belief system.  Atheism is the null hypothesis about one particular point: the existence of deities.  It is no more or less than that.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Xero-Kill on November 12, 2011, 06:12:56 PM
If the god described in the bible were proven to exist, I would indeed believe know that he existed... I would NOT however fall to my knees in worship. I would work to oppose him with all my finite power, however pathetic such an attempt might ultimately prove to be. I would rather die fighting such a tyrant than simply drop to me knees in terror at his might and capricious rage. I would rather suffer for eternity for the sake of my own people than to ever kneel before a maniacal, narcissistic, and petulant being as is described in the bible.   

And you would suffer eternally for no reason because you would know that all your efforts were totally pointless.

No, not for "no reason"... I would do it on the basis of my convictions and principles. Pure and simple. If my will is my own then my efforts would have to have at least SOME total impact, no matter how insignificant... and it is the effort that truly matters. If for no other reason than to show others that this being CAN be resisted, and SHOULD be resisted. Revolutions always start with small efforts.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: dloubet on November 12, 2011, 06:23:20 PM
Quote
If God existed, I believe there would be no dissenters.  ZERO.  It would be impossible.  The whole universe would beat to a single drum.

Which should suggest to you there is no god since even those that claim to believe do not beat to a single drum.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Alzael on November 12, 2011, 07:24:58 PM

I honestly have to wonder, Fungusdrool. How is it possible that you can be surpised that there are actually people who are willing to stand by their own convictions? Especially considering human history and nature. Humans have suffered through all manner of torments, and been afraid that they would suffer many more, and still upheld their beliefs all throughout history.

You honestly can't conceive of the fact that some people might care more about their principles than the punishment they may receive for them.

That's sad......and I don't actually mean that as some snarky/smart ass comment. I mean it. It really is something that I find deeply saddening. Is there really nothing in the world that you care about that much? Not even your own principles?

And you would suffer eternally for no reason because you would know that all your efforts were totally pointless.

It would not be pointless to me. Ultimately that's all that matters.

Besides you can never know what will happen in the future. It might be pointless in the short term, but in the long term who knows what a simple act of defiance may lead to.

I've noticed, fungusdrool, that you seem to have a very dim and depressive view of the world and humanity.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Astreja on November 13, 2011, 01:14:01 PM
3. Yahweh may already be defeated.

Yahweh is clearly a lousy strategist and tactician... Yahweh's Big Battle Plan was to appear at Megiddo with a massed cavalry force, to face Roman legions and cavalry.  If he were to employ such tactics today, against modern armored infantry, air power, precision-guided munitions, drone aircraft, and nuclear weapons, he and his minions would be massacred.

I have an even better version, Kcrady.

On April 2, 2001, Yahweh's forces made their move.  A few friends and I[1] lured the zombies into a dead end in Megiddo.  We forced them to drop their weapons; sent all the zombies home to their graves; and arrested the ringleaders and shipped them off to the regional courts at Proxima Centauri to stand trial on charges of attempted geocide.  No casualties on either side.

Oh, and Judgment Day has been cancelled and replaced by a potluck supper.

 1. My guardian dragon Glori; My friend Red; the Bodhisattva Guan Shi Yin; Raistlin Majere; and a small band of cat warriors from the Pleiades.  8)
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: kaziglu bey on November 13, 2011, 02:36:14 PM
Aren't we all tired of debating on existence of God?
We all know nobody has a rock solid evidence on either case.

Let's start something new.
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.
Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior?

Why and why not?

No, I would not. First of all, Jesus as a savior is just ridiculous. Who is it we are being saved from? The wrath of the vengeful Father. God is the one who has ordered things so that people will sin, then wants them punished for it. He then sends his "Son" to be a human sacrifice,in order to give up this huge guilt trip, and if we want to be able to get to heaven, we have to accept this human sacrifice as our salvation. If we do not, we could face eternal punishment, for finite "sin".

The problem is that the above is just absurd. Why would an all powerful, all knowing, infinite being waste it's time campaigning for the affection of it's creations? Why is he so jealous, spiteful, and hateful? Why does he approve of rape and murder? Why does he order the slaughter of babies? Why does he continue to ignore the vast amount of human suffering and all of the pleas for it to cease? Why would I accept all this as SALVATION? I could not. I could not in good conscience answer to a person who did these things, and I would not answer to a God who did them either.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 13, 2011, 02:50:07 PM
You're wasting your breath,  KB.

ELOI was banned for sockdom (sockery? sockcess?) yesterday...
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: ungod on November 13, 2011, 04:32:39 PM
the whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Quote
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
? Martin Luther
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: kcrady on November 13, 2011, 09:32:09 PM
A few friends and I[1] lured the zombies into a dead end in Megiddo.  We forced them to drop their weapons; sent all the zombies home to their graves; and arrested the ringleaders and shipped them off to the regional courts at Proxima Centauri to stand trial on charges of attempted geocide.  No casualties on either side.

Oh, and Judgment Day has been cancelled and replaced by a potluck supper.
 1. My guardian dragon Glori; My friend Red; the Bodhisattva Guan Shi Yin; Raistlin Majere; and a small band of cat warriors from the Pleiades.  8)

You what?!  I was so hoping I'd get to bring my Vorlon armada to Armageddon, but nooooo, you and your pals had to go and hog it all to yourselves!  Oh, great, now Cthulhu is whimpering because he won't get to have Revelation!TurboJesus for a chew toy.  Thanks a lot! *shakes a clenched tentacle at Astreja*  Do you at least have pics of you whacking Yahweh upside the head with your Clue By Four?  Oh, and if you managed to capture Jerry Falwell and the white horse he rode in on, bring them to the pot luck, would you?  'Cause if Cthulhu ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: Astreja on November 13, 2011, 10:58:11 PM
You what?!  I was so hoping I'd get to bring my Vorlon armada to Armageddon, but nooooo, you and your pals had to go and hog it all to yourselves!  Oh, great, now Cthulhu is whimpering because he won't get to have Revelation!TurboJesus for a chew toy.  Thanks a lot! *shakes a clenched tentacle at Astreja*

Sorry; it all went down so fast I didn't even think of calling for reinforcements.  How's about I buy a round of beer for the Great Old Ones?

Quote
Do you at least have pics of you whacking Yahweh upside the head with your Clue By Four?

I seem to remember Guan Yin stopping Me in mid-swing, but perhaps My dragon associate or Raist caught something on their camera phones.  I'll make some inquiries and get back to you.

Quote
Oh, and if you managed to capture Jerry Falwell and the white horse he rode in on, bring them to the pot luck, would you? 'Cause if Cthulhu ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

With pleasure.  (The horse in question would like it to be known that he wants nothing to do with Jerry F. and has turned State's evidence.)
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fishjie on November 16, 2011, 02:33:14 PM
Well like I said in my response, either choice would be eternal torture.   Either you're in heaven with a giant dbag, or you're burning.    How is heaven better?

Seriously?  OK.  Take one of two options: 1) have a conversation with someone you strongly dislike while sitting in a hammock on a beach on a sunny day surrounded by your loved ones sipping your beverage of choice, or 2) hold a lighter under your outstretched hand.

Here's the problem....    I've read the old testemant.     The guy has slaughtered so many of his own believers.   Even in the NT in the book of Acts, when those two people lied to Paul about the land that they donated (and pocketed some of the money), God struck em dead instantly.     Or that poor fig tree that Jesus withered.

You're expecting me to believe heaven is going to be sugar and spice and everything nice?    The dude was capricious there's no guarantee heaven is going to be a walk on the beach.

At least with hell I know what to expect.   In heaven, it'd be like hanging out with an abusive husband (we are after all the bride of christ) who could lash out at any time.    I prefer predictability in my suffering.     

Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: One Above All on November 16, 2011, 02:35:06 PM
<snip>we are after all the bride of christ<snip>

And christians still whine about homosexuality... Unbelievable.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: fishjie on November 16, 2011, 02:40:08 PM
<snip>we are after all the bride of christ<snip>

And christians still whine about homosexuality... Unbelievable.

LOLOLOL

that reminds me about the most hilarious time in bible study.    we were reading the book of revealation where it was talking about the church as the bride of christ.   a guy outspoken on gay marriage was wincing and said this passage made him uncomfortable but he accepted it anyway.

still makes me chuckle thinking back on it.     the thought of him and other fundies taking it up the butt as jesus enters them on his triumphant return is too hilarious.
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: velkyn on November 16, 2011, 03:24:54 PM
oh my, that's too funny  ;D
Title: Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
Post by: joebbowers on November 25, 2011, 02:31:40 AM
If the bible God existed, and by accepting Jesus Christ as my savior I could spent eternity in blissful happiness, of course I would do it! Mostly out of fear, as the alternative is burning in hell, since Jesus is a tyrant.

Fortunately God is imaginary.