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Main Discussion Zone => Biblical Contradictions => Topic started by: curiousgirl on November 07, 2011, 01:23:42 PM

Title: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: curiousgirl on November 07, 2011, 01:23:42 PM
All the Bible-thumping theists on this site need to understand that although the Bible describes God as loving, merciful and just, he is actually rather sadistic and murderous.

“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”
Hosea 13:15-16

“Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer…” Isaiah 53:10

“Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:15

“After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill.” 2 Samuel 12:15

“Because of you I will rebuke your descendants; I will smear on your faces the dung from your festival sacrifices, and you will be carried off with it.” Malachi 2:3

“If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.” Deuteronomy 22:20-21

“…the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.” Deuteronomy 2:33-34

“They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” Joshua 6:21

“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” 1 Samuel 15:3

“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.” Exodus 12:12

“So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15

And that is just some of the craziness you can find in the Bible that makes God sound not-so-nice. Sure, we can blame ourselves all we want for God’s wrath, but would you require blood or even death from your child (or an animal he owns) when he does something you don’t approve of? Would you cast your child into fire for rejecting you? Plus, what about the innocent children killed by God in some of those verses? While most of these verses come from the OT, bear in mind that we are talking about the same Bible God in the OT and the NT, so no excuses, theists.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: velkyn on November 07, 2011, 01:26:08 PM
BibleGod is nothing more than the other violent gods of the Bronze/Iron Age.   Humans did a lovely job of projecting and intensifying their own activities onto beings they created powerful enough to cause weather, earthquakes, plagues, etc. 

the answer you'll get from most ignorant Christains is that it's God's "right" to be an asshole. 
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: curiousgirl on November 07, 2011, 01:31:01 PM
the answer you'll get from most ignorant Christains is that it's God's "right" to be an asshole.

And that they have the right to be assholes as long as God is OK with it.  ;)
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: albeto on November 07, 2011, 04:40:16 PM
And that they have the right to be assholes as long as God is OK with it.  ;)

Oh it's not a right, these folks are on a mission from god to be righteous assholes!

Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: grasszilla on March 14, 2012, 08:13:58 AM
Hello. I wanted to say that God is just. John 2 : 15: jesus did that cuz the temple is god's and they were defiling it. Exodus 12 : 12: the king wouldnt let his people go after he asked multiple times. 1Samuel 15 : 3: they waylaid them and that was bad. Joshua 6 : 21: they had to kill everyone and there animals so they and ther animals could move in. Deuteronomy 2 : 33 - 34: god wanted them to have the land he promised. Deuteronomy 22 : 20-21 the wife was disgraceful while she still lived in her dads house. We gotta purge evil. Malachi 2 : 3: he had to admonish them and put poo on their faces and then cut off their descendants so his covenant could continue, cuz god keeps his promises. 2 samuel 12 : 15: still in eye for eye era; shouldnt have slept with a wife of a guy who works for you and then get him killed. Revelation 20 : 15: if ur goin to a reservation only resturant and you didnt ask the person who makes the reservations to put your name in the book expect to get thrown out of the lobby (earth).
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: grasszilla on March 14, 2012, 08:21:58 AM
The last 2 are: it was the lords will to reconcile with fallen mankind. And when they rebelled  god wanted them to feel the guilt they should have and that was the way he chose. Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire. Flame.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Nick on March 14, 2012, 09:33:16 AM
You just don't understand Him.  Running a universe by yourself (except for the split personality thing) is a hard thing to do.  Cut the Big Man a break. He's doing the best He can. ;)
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: velkyn on March 14, 2012, 10:10:46 AM
Revelation 20 : 15: if ur goin to a reservation only resturant and you didnt ask the person who makes the reservations to put your name in the book expect to get thrown out of the lobby (earth).

which is quite amusing on how you forget your god intentionally makes sure that some people cannot ever ask.  Amazing how Christians forget that. 
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Seppuku on March 14, 2012, 12:26:39 PM
I've got a few in my signature. I will draw close attention to the 2 from Deuteronomy as one was mentioned in the OP, but the OP missed out the entire section (Christians often tell us we're quoting out of context).

Violence bolded.

Deuteronomy 22

Regulations for Sexual Purity

Quote
13 “Suppose a man marries a woman, but after sleeping with her, he turns against her 14 and publicly accuses her of shameful conduct, saying, ‘When I married this woman, I discovered she was not a virgin.’ 15 Then the woman’s father and mother must bring the proof of her virginity to the elders as they hold court at the town gate. 16 Her father must say to them, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to be his wife, and now he has turned against her. 17 He has accused her of shameful conduct, saying, “I discovered that your daughter was not a virgin.” But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.’ Then they must spread her bed sheet before the elders. 18 The elders must then take the man and punish him. 19 They must also fine him 100 pieces of silver, which he must pay to the woman’s father because he publicly accused a virgin of Israel of shameful conduct. The woman will then remain the man’s wife, and he may never divorce her.
 20 “But suppose the man’s accusations are true, and he can show that she was not a virgin. 21 The woman must be taken to the door of her father’s home, and there the men of the town must stone her to death, for she has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents’ home. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.

 22 “If a man is discovered committing adultery, both he and the woman must die. In this way, you will purge Israel of such evil.

 23 “Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town, 24 you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man’s wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.

 25 “But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. 26 Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim. 27 Since the man raped her out in the country, it must be assumed that she screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.

 28 “Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered, 29 he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver.[c] Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.

 30 [d]“A man must not marry his father’s former wife, for this would violate his father.

tl;dr?

Wife not a virgin on her marriage? Stone her to death
Adulterers? Both must die.
Man has sex with woman who is to be betrothed? Because she was in a town and did not scream, she is guilty. Therefore she and the man must be stoned to death.
Rape someone who does scream for help? Well only the rapist should be killed. I would have gone for castrate him, but I guess we have our differences.
Rape a virgin who is not to be married? Cough up 50 silver because you'll have to marry her.*


*Good lesson there for outstanding Christian gentlemen, want a girl you like? Worried she might not like you? Why try so hard to impress her? Particularly if there's other guys she's interested in! Well save up your money and rape her! That way she'll have no choice but to be your bride and she can't cheat on you because she'll just get stoned to death otherwise.

And yes, Deuteronomy is a law for Christians because Jesus said in several quotes that he was not to abolish the old laws, he was there to enforce them and not only that he basically said to listen to the word of Moses and Deuteronomy is one of the 5 books of Moses. I can dig up quotes for them too. But either way, this should show how detestable God's laws are. If people didn't believe in the Old Testament, then we wouldn't have Creationism or the 10 Commandments.


Fortunately the laws of our country do not agree with God's laws. So raping women isn't going to get you a wife and having sex before marriage isn't going to kill you.

[edit]
I guess I should pose the question. How are these laws just? Grasszilla said for the 1 that we must purge evil. So somebody is adulterous we must murder them? A tad bit a extreme. Somebody has sex before marriage? Again, extreme...I don't even see why that's even 'evil'.

But lets say they are evil and so damn outraging that the only possible punishment for it is to be stoned to death. What about the rape? If the woman does not scream, she is guilty and is therefore punished with being stoned to death. Why didn't she scream? Perhaps she was petrified? Perhaps she was blackmailed? Perhaps she was threatened? Or maybe she was mute. Maybe a number of reasons. And what about virgins who aren't engaged who are raped? Why must they marry their rapists?

What's so evil about being a victim?
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: naemhni on March 14, 2012, 01:35:49 PM
tl;dr?

Wife not a virgin on her marriage? Stone her to death
Adulterers? Both must die.
Man has sex with woman who is to be betrothed? Because she was in a town and did not scream, she is guilty. Therefore she and the man must be stoned to death.
Rape someone who does scream for help? Well only the rapist should be killed. I would have gone for castrate him, but I guess we have our differences.
Rape a virgin who is not to be married? Cough up 50 silver because you'll have to marry her.*

Or, if you're one of those people who finds images easier to follow than words, here's all the same information, presented in a handy-dandy flowchart!

(http://x8c.xanga.com/3b4e546578d37278359493/b219881585.jpg)
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Seppuku on March 14, 2012, 03:32:38 PM
Awesome, didn't know somebody made a flow chart. Stolen for future reference. ;)

Guess the only answer is:
Don't get raped! Otherwise in the eyes of the Lord you will be evil and must then be punished.


Also, isn't this just a loop hole for sex before marriage?

"Oh, we weren't having sex before marriage, those weren't screams of pleasure, I was being raped by my own boyfriend!"

Or maybe your father doesn't approve of your boyfriend?

"Dad, you know my boyfriend you don't like? He raped me so it looks like we're getting married after all."
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: screwtape on March 15, 2012, 11:21:40 AM
Exodus 12 : 12: the king wouldnt let his people go after he asked multiple times.

hi grasszilla.

You are missing the critical part of that story.  The pharaoh agreed several times to let the jews go, but each time yhwh "hardened his heart" to make him change his mind.  The jews could have left sooner, but it was yhwh's intervention that kept them in bondage longer because yhwh wanted to make a name for himself as a bad ass.

exodus 10:1:
Quote
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.

bold mine. 

Pharaoh was relatively innocent in this.  The responsibility lays on yhwh.  Maybe you should understand what your holy book says before you comment on it.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Omen on March 15, 2012, 11:32:37 AM
If I am guilty before I exist, then god's justice has no relevant meaning.

If I exist and god knows I will never believe, then I exist for no other purpose than to suffer and god is cruel.

If I am condemned because I do not know and thus do not believe, then god's love has no relevant meaning.

The biblical creed delivers a message of compulsion under a threat of violence, insisted to be believed upon by nothing more than ignorance of what one can know.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 15, 2012, 11:54:19 AM
This idea of people being guilty at the point of conception is such a crock of shit. All cultures had stories to help people learn the need to behave and do the right thing. The christians came up with this original sin thing. It's just a story, and a pretty bad one at that. Their god wants everyone to have faith and everyone to redeem themselves. He has no interest being honest himself, he has no interest in having people who are good from the start, he has no interest in justice or kindness or fairness or gentleness. He only has interest in his selfish need to be worshipped and condemning all who don't follow him in lock step.

Sounds like a republican to me. Coincidence? I don't think so.

The christian god was created by exactly the sort of people who pull republican type shenanigans. "I'm right, you're wrong, so die, pig".

The story is so full of crap it has to be human in origin. The most evil of gods couldn't come up with anything more heinous. And none of this crap would ever even occur to a good god.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Seppuku on March 15, 2012, 12:02:42 PM
It's those sorts of reasons I sometimes try to pose the argument that, "the bible was written by the devil in order to trick people into following the path of being good".

To expand that, I also suggested that the devil invented all the world religion to ensure chaos in the world and it has worked.

Think about it, if the devil were to do this, he'd try and make himself credible - "I am God, I am good and my word is just and I am here to bring you to paradise", not, "I am the devil, an evil sonavabitch and I'm gonna f**k you up."

God vs Satan, is it bizarre that Satan is actually the less violent, less blood thirst and less cruel of the two? Hell isn't pain and torture, it's Satan living it up with his homies. ;)
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Omen on March 15, 2012, 12:25:18 PM
Christian's don't have any choice, in order to justify it ethically or morally, they have to assume that you actually believe it to be true and are simply denying it.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Backspace on March 15, 2012, 12:40:50 PM
A couple of favorites:

Isaiah 13:15-18:  All prisoners children will be dashed to death before their eyes; their homes will be sacked and their wives raped.  All male prisoners will then be run through with a sword.  No amount of silver or gold will buy off my armies; they will shoot down the young with arrows and have no mercy or compassion for helpless babies.

Judges 18:27: Then with Micah and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure.  They attacked it with swords and burned the town to the ground. 

You can just feeeeeel the love...
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 15, 2012, 04:21:57 PM
they had to kill everyone and there animals so they and ther animals could move in

Oh well that makes it alright then.  &)

I suppose it was also "alright" that my white ancestors murdered Native Americans and stole their land, because they were on a mission from "God."
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 15, 2012, 04:23:16 PM
Judges 18:27: Then with Micah and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure.  They attacked it with swords and burned the town to the ground. 

You can just feeeeeel the love...

Interesting.... God's people came and attacked a people who were "peaceful and secure."
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: grasszilla on March 15, 2012, 10:23:54 PM
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: joebbowers on March 16, 2012, 02:18:35 AM
I suppose it was also "alright" that my white ancestors murdered Native Americans and stole their land, because they were on a mission from "God."

I'm sure glad they did, who the hell wants to live in England?
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: velkyn on March 16, 2012, 09:06:35 AM
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

so, genocide is perfectly fine with you as long as someone doesn't worship the way you do.   :P

what nasty people Christians often are. 
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: screwtape on March 16, 2012, 10:53:26 AM
Hi grasszilla

the green text indicates I am acting as a moderator and not a participant in the discussion.


Still cant quote...oh well.
Here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,75.0.html) is the link to our quoting tutorial and the users' guide.  Go there, read it, become the greatest quoter this forum has known.  While you're at it, read the Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,78.0.html).   

Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: screwtape on March 16, 2012, 10:58:05 AM
Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

Why is that okay? 

by the way, all archaeological evidence indicates the israelites were canaanites.  They were not a foreign invasion.  judaism as we know it evolved from canaanite polytheism. There is evidence of this polythiesim or monolatry still in the bible.  For example, the first commandment says "do not worship other gods before me", explicitly endorses the existence of other gods.  Similarly, when moses had his showdown with the pharaoh's magicians, their magic worked, just not quite as good as yhwh's.  Do you know any real magicians?

Anyway, there was no exodus.  It was one of their national myths.  Like George Washington chopping down a cherry tree.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Seppuku on March 16, 2012, 05:35:49 PM
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

Wow, talk about ethnic cleansing. Interesting many Christians suggest Hitler was an atheism and his atrocities were an atheistic ideal (ignoring the amount of references to Christianity in his speeches and imagery), how you've described this passage permits those kinds of atrocities and to avoid invoking Godwin's law, the difference between the two was Hitler was talking about a superior race who was pure and should dominate other countries and eliminate those who are impure and stand in their way and God on the other hand has a superior group of people, his followers who are pure and should dominate other lands and eliminate those who are impure.

A minor difference I guess. It definitely explains the justification of the Crusades and Christianity's domination of any country it chooses to populate. Though tactics are less violent today, well...even that depends, there are still numbers of Christians in the world who listen to God's word and enact the violence it demands. Thankfully there have been reforms, but there are many who try to undo them and succeed.

The bible is incredibly violent and that is pretty damn scary considering many publicly emphasise that it is the literal command of God and MUST be obeyed, even the nasty bits we tend to consider to be unjust. What worries me more is Christians who defend these parts of the bible, such as yourself.

When posing these sorts of bible quotes to Christian friends, do you know what they say? They say it's obvious they're wrong and should be abhorred and were the laws of the people then but they're not important to the teachings about God and their faith in him. Of course, I could probably try to declare how ridiculous I think that belief is and numerous biblical contradiction, but I'm not an arsehole and I at least have basic social skills, so I leave that kind of conversation to situations where you're debating those views, not just discussing them. Whilst I think their beliefs are inaccurate and unnecessary, I appreciate that they have the individual thought to recognise and to reason what's right and what's wrong, even if the 'wrong' comes from their holy text or even practitioners of their religion, who they have an equal distaste for as I. In fact a bisexual Christian Creationist friend (might seem contradictory to many) got some harassing emails from a fellow Christian[1] about how her being bisexual was immoral in the eyes of the lord and quoted some pretty nasty quotes from the bible to her, mainly ones about how she should be put to death. So I think she understands first hand what the bible's teachings can mean to the minds of mindless sheep. And in conversation we have equally mocked such people.  :P
 1. If it's any consolation, said Christian used to do a 'Jesus' show on our student radio and my show was assigned to be the slot before hers. I am a metal head, I love Norse Pagan mythology, my show was very much about Norse paganism, me and my co-host would have a Norse god in the studio for each show and I did most of the voices for them. Much of the music we played was paganistic and Satanic. I think one of the songs I played was about butchering the Crusaders for the evil they've done, or how after centuries of persecution from Christianity Satanists would rise and take revenge. Also, I purposely faded out on Satanic tracks (like Dimmu Borgir or Mayhem) to her Jesus show. I wouldn't have done it if she wasn't bigoted. ;) I think we needed to be given a more sensible slot. :P
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Backspace on March 16, 2012, 09:49:40 PM
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

so, genocide is perfectly fine with you as long as someone doesn't worship the way you do.   :P

what nasty people Christians often are.

Grasszilla stated the usual apologetic to the Judges 18 quote, not that he necessarily agreed with it.  Perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt?[1]
 1. I've not read any of grasszilla's other posts, so I don't know if he's a god-botherer or not
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: changeling on March 17, 2012, 04:58:33 AM
^^^ A person should not even state the usual apologetic to Judges 18 without a disclaimer.
Because if they really believe that hogwash they are a vile as any genecidal dictator.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 19, 2012, 06:15:10 AM
The bible is incredibly violent and that is pretty damn scary considering many publicly emphasise that it is the literal command of God and MUST be obeyed, even the nasty bits we tend to consider to be unjust. What worries me more is Christians who defend these parts of the bible, such as yourself.

Unfortunately I can no longer find the source, but I remember reading a quote from a Jehovah's Witness once who said that they are conscientious objectors because there has been no "God-ordained" war in a long time but that, if God ordains a war, they would be the first to enlist. That may sound on the surface like a very peaceful attitude, but it leaves their followers wide open for a jihad-type of war.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Astreja on March 19, 2012, 11:32:40 PM
Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire.

Grasszilla, if Hell actually existed, even one person suffering there for eternity would be sufficient to make the god you worship infinitely evil.

And some people, Myself included, are simply not comfortable with the idea of worshipping a god that would deliberately create and maintain a place of eternal punishment.  No one, and I do literally mean no one, past, present or future, deserves such a fate.

I'm also aghast at the idea of letting someone else die in My place.  I'm a big girl and I don't need Jesus to take the fall for Me.  If Hell actually exists, I'll go there under My own power, of My own free, for My own reasons.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: joebbowers on March 20, 2012, 02:39:42 AM
Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire.

You seem to be forgetting that God created that hell, and created the rules that mean almost everyone will be condemned to suffer there for all eternity. He also has the power to destroy hell and free everyone there, but chooses not to.

So yeah, sadistic. We are lucky he it's all imaginary.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: magicmiles on March 20, 2012, 02:45:54 AM
Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire.

You seem to be forgetting that God created that hell, and created the rules that mean almost everyone will be condemned to suffer there for all eternity. He also has the power to destroy hell and free everyone there, but chooses not to.

So yeah, sadistic. We are lucky he it's all imaginary.

Almost everyone condemned? Are you one of the atheists who bemoan being surrounded by Christians?
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: joebbowers on March 20, 2012, 04:46:48 AM
Christians only make up about 30% of the world's population. Right off the top that means 70% are going to hell. Of that 30%...

Anyone who has had premarital sex is going to hell. Fornicators.
Anyone who lusts after someone to whom he is not married is going to hell. Adulterer.
Anyone who divorces and marries again is going to hell. Adulterer. As are their children, their children's children, and so on down to the 10th generation.
Any Christians who pray to Mary or saints, not God directly, are going to hell.  Idolators.

Additionally...
Anyone who has ever said the God's name in vain will go to hell.
Anyone who works on Sunday will go to hell.
Anyone who is homosexual will go to hell.
Anyone who is handicapped will go to hell.
Anyone who is rich will go to hell.

And so, so many more. According to the bible at least 99% of mankind is damned. So yeah, almost everyone.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: magicmiles on March 20, 2012, 05:22:37 AM
You really just don't understand the good news, it seems. Jesus died for sin.

When you accept Jesus as Lord and repent you are a new creation and your sins are completely covered.

You can't look at bible verses in isolation - look at the whole story.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: sun_king on March 20, 2012, 05:37:32 AM
You really just don't understand the good news, it seems. Jesus died for sin.
When you accept Jesus as Lord and repent you are a new creation and your sins are completely covered.
You can't look at bible verses in isolation - look at the whole story.

Does this mean that I can do all the meanest, despicable, unspeakably wicked things, murder and torture millions, commit genocide and/or ethnic cleansing and then "accept" Jesus and I will be clean as a whistle, all packed for life of comfort in heaven?

Wow!
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: magicmiles on March 20, 2012, 05:47:34 AM
If you truly repent and accept Jesus as your saviour, then yes - the bible couldn't be clearer on that.

What do you think of that idea?
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: sun_king on March 20, 2012, 06:55:26 AM
Repulsive...

Shows how desperate were the authors of the bible to add numbers. What would you do MM, if you go to heaven and find the Pope Innocent IV or the Fuhrer playing Jenga with god?
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: jynnan tonnix on March 20, 2012, 07:03:11 AM
I think that idea is despicable as long as the opposite is true...that the kindly old Buddhist, for example, who literally never hurt a fly and strove daily to be the best person he could be, ends up damned for eternity simply because he felt that his path made more sense to him than the Christian one.

And what, even, of the self-identifying "Christians" who were raised with a vague idea of Biblegod, and go to church at Christmas & Easter, without really giving much thought to religion beyond checking off the right box when filling out forms. I'd say that most people I have met throughout my life were Christian, but only a fairly small percentage were really INTO it. Most seem to be Deists who choose to pay homage to the idea of God they are most familiar with, but will admit that they think there are many valid paths. Would you say that these people are saved? They are certainly not "born again"...Would you say it makes sense to imagine them in hell?

As long as I can look around me and see good and deserving people who do not fit the description of "saved" as per the Bible, and imagine that God would see fit to damn them, I cannot get excited about the handful who somehow get the message--including rapists, murderers and so forth--being "wiped clean of sin".
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: screwtape on March 20, 2012, 07:14:12 AM
You really just don't understand the good news, it seems.

Well, someone doesn't understand it.  That is for sure.  Just who doesn't is up for debate.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Seppuku on March 20, 2012, 07:16:56 AM
Hitler in heaven and me in hell. I'm suffering for all eternity because I didn't believe but Hitler is up there enjoying the good eternal life. Of course this is all hypothetical because I think the chances of Hitler repenting are probably quite slim.

On one hand you've got somebody who's a mass murdering f**k head and then me, I got in a fight when I was 11 and lost and the other guy started it...that's about it.

So obviously it doesn't seem right. I mean,I don't believe in heaven so obviously I'm not scared of going to hell or anything like that, just as I'm sure you're not scared of Muslim hell. But the idea of somebody who is incredibly sick minded could get an eternal life in heaven for repenting for his sins whilst somebody who is good to others and doesn't do anything bad but does not accept Jesus Christ as their saviour is to get an eternity in hell.

[edit]
I wonder, how do you feel about Islamic hell? You could be a perfectly righteous Christian, but that might not save you if it is the Muslims who got it right. How would you feel about your attachment to Christ? How would you feel if Osama Bin Laden was considered a true Muslim in the eyes of Allah and ascended to heaven? Yet, you a righteous Christian and me a moral atheist are to spend an eternity of pain and suffering for not accepting Islam?
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: naemhni on March 20, 2012, 07:24:15 AM
Almost everyone condemned?

Yes, that's scriptural.  All non-Christians are condemned ("no one comes to the father but by me").  As Joe has already pointed out, this means that, even if you're talking only about the people who are alive today, that's a minimum of 72% of the human population that is damned.  (Seven billion people on the planet, five billion of whom are not Christians.)

Further, some Christians are also condemned ("not everyone calling on me 'lord, lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven").  Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Yahweh actually exists and that the bible is his revealed word, there's no agreement -- not by a long shot -- on which Christians are also going to be damned.  And even if you assume it's only one out of every five (probably a generous estimate, considering everything that scripture says), that's another four hundred million people condemned, which brings the total damnation rate to 77% of the human population.

If you were testing a treatment for cancer, and that treatment resulted in three out of every four of the test subjects dying from cancer, you would not talk about the treatment's "one in four success rate".  Rather, you would consider the treatment an abysmal failure, and if you couldn't figure out any way to improve the treatment to make it more successful, you would probably shelve it in favor of researching more promising therapies.

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Are you one of the atheists who bemoan being surrounded by Christians?

That's not pertinent to the Christians' doctrine of salvation.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: velkyn on March 20, 2012, 08:44:52 AM
You really just don't understand the good news, it seems. Jesus died for sin.

When you accept Jesus as Lord and repent you are a new creation and your sins are completely covered.

You can't look at bible verses in isolation - look at the whole story.

and again we get different Christian versions of what their god "really" meant.  In your own bible, it says that some people will never be allowed to accept JC or have their sins removed.  We get that right from JC and from Paul.  Then, we have that lovely story, you know, Revelation, that has that all the people who don't accept this god and JC are killed.  Then JC gets to reign over all of those who have acceptd him on earth for an "aeon" usually translated as a thousand years.  But then this god *must* release the "beast" again, and let him corrupt more people.   These corrupted people are then damned no change of having their "sins" covered. 

Sorry, MM, but many of us, including me, have read your whole bible and we know that your claims of "context" are the usual attempts of a Christian to declare only his version is the "right" one.   
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: joebbowers on March 20, 2012, 11:30:45 AM
So being a good person is meaningless to God, you can commit any evil you want as long as you accept Jesus and repent at the end.

It's absolutely disgusting that you believe that, and it's all the more reason why we are working to end religion.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: rev45 on March 20, 2012, 02:45:30 PM
Yes, that's scriptural.  All non-Christians are condemned ("no one comes to the father but by me").  As Joe has already pointed out, this means that, even if you're talking only about the people who are alive today, that's a minimum of 72% of the human population that is damned.  (Seven billion people on the planet, five billion of whom are not Christians.)
Seven billion people with 72% having the chance of hell damnation is quite a lot of people.  But the way I've always heard it is that all people who have ever lived also have the possibility of going to hell.  That boosts the numbers of people going to hell by quite a bit, around 106 billion.[1] 
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#Number_of_humans_who_have_ever_lived
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: Quesi on March 20, 2012, 03:15:41 PM


Seven billion people with 72% having the chance of hell damnation is quite a lot of people.  But the way I've always heard it is that all people who have ever lived also have the possibility of going to hell.  That boosts the numbers of people going to hell by quite a bit, around 106 billion.[1]
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#Number_of_humans_who_have_ever_lived

Not sure if it is in the scriptures, but Christians tell me all the time that babies and kids who die get into heaven automatically.  I've heard different cut-off ages, ranging from 2 to 12.  If God's real cut off is 7 and 3 months, it must really suck to die at 7 and 4 months and spend eternity in hell.  I mean, if only the drought or the war or the disease had come earlier, those little souls could have spent an eternity in a celestial playground, instead of a lake of fire. 

On the other hand, if this is the case, I really don't understand why Christians aren't PUSHING abortions.  I mean, all those little innocent souls who don't get a chance to sin, get an automatic eternal afterlife. 
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: rev45 on March 20, 2012, 03:27:15 PM
Not sure if it is in the scriptures, but Christians tell me all the time that babies and kids who die get into heaven automatically.  I've heard different cut-off ages, ranging from 2 to 12.  If God's real cut off is 7 and 3 months, it must really suck to die at 7 and 4 months and spend eternity in hell.  I mean, if only the drought or the war or the disease had come earlier, those little souls could have spent an eternity in a celestial playground, instead of a lake of fire.

Yea, I can't think off the top of my head any verse that says children are automatically saved.  I was never a Catholic and I'm sure those that are/were can give more info, but I thought in their teachings that children are saved.

Quote
On the other hand, if this is the case, I really don't understand why Christians aren't PUSHING abortions.  I mean, all those little innocent souls who don't get a chance to sin, get an automatic eternal afterlife.
(http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/abortion-sends-babies-to-god-faster.jpg)
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: changeling on March 20, 2012, 04:24:31 PM
If you were testing a treatment for cancer, and that treatment resulted in three out of every four of the test subjects dying from cancer, you would not talk about the treatment's "one in four success rate".

And you wouldn't call it the "Good news" either.
Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: velkyn on March 21, 2012, 08:50:48 AM
there is absolutely nothing in the bible that excuses children or babes from hell.  The usual excuse is some vague claims about an age of responsiblity, but that's in the OT, which most Christians only mention if they think it supports them, and ignore desperately when they don't like it.  St. Augustine is the big one for Catholics in saying that children are damned, no ifs ands or buts.  Catholics really hate when you dare bring this pronouncement from him up since they run to him for all sorts of other "truths" that aren't nearly so vile.  The RCC had to quickly invent a less bad part of hell for them and "virtuous pagans", because those they wanted to convert found their religion disgusting. 

Title: Re: Bible God is Cruel
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 21, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
Not sure if it is in the scriptures, but Christians tell me all the time that babies and kids who die get into heaven automatically.  I've heard different cut-off ages, ranging from 2 to 12.  If God's real cut off is 7 and 3 months, it must really suck to die at 7 and 4 months and spend eternity in hell.  I mean, if only the drought or the war or the disease had come earlier, those little souls could have spent an eternity in a celestial playground, instead of a lake of fire. 

On the other hand, if this is the case, I really don't understand why Christians aren't PUSHING abortions.  I mean, all those little innocent souls who don't get a chance to sin, get an automatic eternal afterlife.

Indeed, any Christian who truly believes the teachings of their holy book should logically have no desire to bring any more children into this world. According to the Bible, they have automatically sealed the child's fate.