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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: C on October 30, 2011, 01:46:56 PM

Title: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on October 30, 2011, 01:46:56 PM
When I was a Christian, I asked my parents and, of course, my pastor about heaven. Mostly about the people who would end up going to this paradise where there's good food, eternal music, playgrounds with angels despite how creepy they actually are:

(http://angelstarspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/seraphim.jpg)

and of course where you meet famous people and even your own damn ancestors.

What puzzled me though is that, how would our ancestors even get to heaven if they've never heard of Christ, Noah, St. Peter, Abraham and the Christian God? It's not like there were hundreds of Jesuses running around performing miracles in every region of the world at the same time, otherwise the Bible would say that right?

So I asked them, "Did our ancestors, who never heard of Jesus Christ, get to heaven"?

They all said, "Absolutely!"

Their reasoning goes something like this: If you've never heard of Christ in your life-time BUT did good deeds in your life, then you automatically get to heaven. This goes for infants who died prematurely as well.

So then I asked other people and they all agreed that dead babies and good people who couldn't have heard about Christ during their lives would get an EZ-Pass through heaven's gates.

So my question for you is this:

There were, and still are, thousands of missionaries going around the world trying to convert people to Christianity.

But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of entering heaven and getting salvation? Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Nick on October 30, 2011, 02:00:00 PM
Good question.  I remember askng something very similar long ago. Did not get a very good response if I remember right.


Wow, imagine what is in store for those of us who have heard of Jesus and continued to make fun of Him (zombie Jesus for example) on this site.  It can't be pretty.  Oh, well, enjoy the next 13 months.  It is all we poor humans have left.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: jetson on October 30, 2011, 02:07:56 PM
You C, my friend...have entered the ass-backwards logic of the deluded masses who don't know how to think for themselves, and are scared shitless to even think about doubting their beliefs or their god.  They are literally trapped in the delusion, and have little chance of escaping.  They will say practically anything to defend their personal beliefs, including yes to killing their own child if God asked them to.  Sad, but true.  I've seen it in real-time, on this site, and among believer friends in my own little circle.

The entire story of Christianity is a lie, every single word of it.  It is an entire concoction of fear-mongering nut-cases who purposely created a mythological god figure, made up a sacrifice story, and desperately attempted to connect it to the Old Testament, in an effort to give it more authority.  In doing so, they pissed off the owners of that older religion, and created a whole new batch of nitwits who have managed to fool billions of otherwise normal human beings into thinking that miracles are as real as Zues and Thor.  It's both laughable, and sad.  And it is despicable, and disgusting.

Ok, I'm done.  But make no mistake, I could write like this for hours (not that the writing is any good, but my thoughts on it can be endless...)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: rev45 on October 30, 2011, 03:22:23 PM
This is a little something I read a long time ago.  A conversation between an Eskimo and a priest who had been in their village for a while.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

Priest: "No, not if you did not know."

Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

And scene.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: bgb on October 30, 2011, 03:47:09 PM
I don't think there is an escape clause.  The bible just says believe or hell is your destination.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: thunderridge on October 30, 2011, 03:54:37 PM
There is something about Jesus will cover the four corners of the Earth.  But people die before the four corners are reached.  IDK. Religions are fictional accounts that people take way too seriously.   
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Nick on October 30, 2011, 04:32:40 PM
The Earth has corners???
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Bellatrix on October 30, 2011, 08:41:18 PM
My Grandmother told me god gave verbal instruction about salvation to his prophets, such as Enoch. She then made me read:

Romans 1:18-20 (NIV) 18. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I also found this forum thread (2007) to be an interesting topic of debate between Muslims and Christians:

"Christians: Are All Those That Died Before Jesus Going To Hell Fire?"

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-94399.0.html
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: pingnak on October 30, 2011, 09:39:05 PM
But you're not thinking about the BAD people who could be saved!

What are a few 'good' people who hear the message and become damned for rejecting it, when you can 'save' all the bloody, horrible bastards who accept the message.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on October 31, 2011, 02:07:50 AM
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Romans 1:18-20 (NIV) 18. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

This doesn't make sense at all. If God was made plain to the people of Earth so that they're without excuse, then why so many different religions and differing views?


Quote
"Christians: Are All Those That Died Before Jesus Going To Hell Fire?"

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-94399.0.html

For a second I thought the link said "NarniaLand". And that thread is like children fighting each other on whether or not Optimus Prime is more badass than Megatron.

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This is how you dubious Muslims confirm that Muhammad is a FALSE prophet!  When Muhammad came proclaiming himself to be the prophet who was closer to Jesus than any other prophet, was he preaching 'another God' than the Biblical God?

Second, how has the Muslim 'Allah' shown mercy to the millions Muhammad and his brigand slaughtered and still do even today? Where is the "mercy" in Muhammad's proclamation that he was made victorious with TERROR?

When you Muslims are jobless, you open a thread, not to enquire sincerely, but to start a controversy you can't finish.

It's incredibly funny how they can see the flaws in each others' religion but not their own.  &)

As for one of the Christians' answers:

Quote
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Which still doesn't explain anything since the god seemed to only be concentrated in the region of the Middle East.

This is a little something I read a long time ago.  A conversation between an Eskimo and a priest who had been in their village for a while.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

Priest: "No, not if you did not know."

Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

And scene.

Poor Eskimos :(
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: rev45 on October 31, 2011, 08:15:22 AM
Poor Eskimos :(
I'm not sure if it was an actual conversation.  The several times I've seen that little story, I've not seen anyone say that it was based on a real conversation.  I'm assuming it was made up.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on October 31, 2011, 08:30:56 AM
But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of entering heaven and getting salvation? Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?

It's all to do with what room you get in heaven.

People who get there for just being good, get the standard room.
People who get there for accepting Jesus get the superior room.
And people who get there for accepting Jesus AND spreading the word, get the penthouse suite.

Of course, this makes a nonsense of everyone being equal in heaven, and having no earthly needs or desires......but when did religion ever have to make sense?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on October 31, 2011, 10:21:33 AM
Wait wait, what room would people who have killed in the name of Jesus get?  :-\
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Samuelxcs on October 31, 2011, 10:22:23 AM
Wait wait, what room would people who have killed in the name of Jesus get?  :-\

The Jesus slave room?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on October 31, 2011, 10:23:34 AM
The Jesus slave room?

Can't tell if that is a kinky S&M room or a room worse than the standard one. :(
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Samuelxcs on October 31, 2011, 10:26:21 AM

Can't tell if that is a kinky S&M room or a room worse than the standard one. :(

The standard room isn't so bad, I'd be OK with that.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: MathIsCool on October 31, 2011, 12:40:50 PM
...
So my question for you is this:

There were, and still are, thousands of missionaries going around the world trying to convert people to Christianity.

But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of entering heaven and getting salvation? Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?
I tell ya, coming from a group of people at least some of which are allegedly former Christians, the responses above were a travesty.  If I believed in a gospel like that I'd probably be an atheist too.

Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.  Read Romans 1:18-20 (it looks like it's even provided by an earlier response to the thread.)  The good news of the gospel isn't a new set of rules that you have to follow, it's the knowledge that, if you believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven.  Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow, rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.

The obedience that follows (giving 10% of your income, praying, etc etc), important though it may be, is stuff you do out of gratitude of being saved, and in order to get to know this Jesus guy better.  It in no way helps you earn your way into heaven.

Also:
... And that thread is like children fighting each other on whether or not Optimus Prime is more badass than Megatron. ...
You're right, that is a ridiculous question; something only children would fight over.  Adults know it's Optimus Prime by a mile.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on October 31, 2011, 12:48:22 PM
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I tell ya, coming from a group of people at least some of which are allegedly former Christians, the responses above were a travesty.  If I believed in a gospel like that I'd probably be an atheist too.

Just shows you how different denominations within Christianity differ from each other in their own teachings/interpretations of the religion.

Quote
Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.  Read Romans 1:18-20 (it looks like it's even provided by an earlier response to the thread.)

All of the sentient and feeling humans, who have never heard of Christ or have, and some of them who have undoubtedly done good deeds even without being a Christian deserve to be punished for an eternity? That's appalling.


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The good news of the gospel isn't a new set of rules that you have to follow, it's the knowledge that, if you believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven.

So if I murdered 2 boys, 1 girl and 55 adults and then I believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, then I am forgiven and get a chance to NOT get punished? Weird, weird.

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Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow,

Uh, no, you're clearly giving them a new set of rules to follow. It's happened in Western expansion, Western imperialism and the spread of Christian missionaries across the world.

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rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.

A doomed people that has their own unique culture now have to cast aside their identity and follow this disgusting god? Are you reading what you're typing?

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The obedience that follows (giving 10% of your income, praying, etc etc), important though it may be, is stuff you do out of gratitude of being saved,

God hasn't done shit that has made me feel "saved", much less the millions of other human beings who are being killed, abused, put into slavery and starved.

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and in order to get to know this Jesus guy better.  It in no way helps you earn your way into heaven.

Praying, going to church, giving 10% of your income and confessing your sins doesn't help then?

Quote
You're right, that is a ridiculous question; something only children would fight over.  Adults know it's Optimus Prime Megatron by a mile.

Also, yes they are children for bickering over which of their imaginary friend is bigger and badder and more real.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on October 31, 2011, 12:52:12 PM
Also:
... And that thread is like children fighting each other on whether or not Optimus Prime is more badass than Megatron. ...
You're right, that is a ridiculous question; something only children would fight over.  Adults know it's Optimus Prime by a mile.

Are you freaking kidding me?!?! The Slag Maker, aka Megatron is the epitome' of badass! Prime has the touch, but his former mentor is the one that carries the biggest stick.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: ungod on November 01, 2011, 11:50:22 AM
But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of en tering heaven and getting salvation?windowless Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?

It's all to do with what room you get in heaven.

A Pope and a lawyer wait at the pearly gates for St. Peter. He admits both of them, and escorts them to the Popes room - a bare, small windowless room with only a single bed.
Then, he shows them the lawyers accommodations - a sumptuous suite, with king size bed, fabulous view of heaven, a jacuzzi, big screen TV, air conditioning, , you name it."But, but," the  lawyer protests,  "for  God's sake, he's the Pope!"
"Oh, that," says St. Peter. "We've got lots of Popes here, but we've never had a lawyer before."
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: jaimehlers on November 01, 2011, 12:09:17 PM
I believe Optimus Prime has always won every actual fight he's had with Megatron where there wasn't outside interference.  Really, the only reason he died in the original movie was because Mattel wanted a cheap excuse to sell new toys.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 01, 2011, 12:12:37 PM
I tell ya, coming from a group of people at least some of which are allegedly former Christians, the responses above were a travesty.  If I believed in a gospel like that I'd probably be an atheist too.
Really, a no true scotsman argument again, MiC?
Quote
Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.  Read Romans 1:18-20 (it looks like it's even provided by an earlier response to the thread.)  The good news of the gospel isn't a new set of rules that you have to follow, it's the knowledge that, if you believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven.  Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow, rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.
Except for the problem of each Christian telling a different story on what one has to do to be "saved".  Some claim "grace" some claim works, some claim just a choice to believe, some its totally up to their god's capricious whim on who gets the magic prize, etc.   
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The obedience that follows (giving 10% of your income, praying, etc etc), important though it may be, is stuff you do out of gratitude of being saved, and in order to get to know this Jesus guy better.  It in no way helps you earn your way into heaven.
One christians view of what his God "really" meant, with no more evidence than the next. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 01, 2011, 12:24:48 PM
I believe Optimus Prime has always won every actual fight he's had with Megatron where there wasn't outside interference.  Really, the only reason he died in the original movie was because Mattel wanted a cheap excuse to sell new toys.

True, I told you, Prime has the "touch". I guess that is Prime's inside interferance that enables him to overcome Megatron's mighty. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: I am become relevant on November 03, 2011, 08:38:46 AM
Hahaha The OP made me lol.
I actually inquired into this myself. It seems people are actually divided in what happens to the people who never got a monotheistic message. For example I asked a Christian friend of mine and he said that according to their faith you'd go straight to hell regardless. He said it's impossible for anyone to enter heaven if they weren't a Christian.
The majority of Muslims believe that if you never received ANY monotheistic preaching, you'd go to heaven straight away. But if you ignored ANY of the preachings at your respective time (Noah, Jesus, Abraham.... etc) then you're going to hell. :)   
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: fungusdrool on November 03, 2011, 09:13:47 AM
All people have sinned and deserve Hell.

Right.  Exactly!  All imperfect, finite beings DESERVE an infinity of absolute torture!
Especially since everyone was created by our loving Father (why would he create us without sin?  Now that would be stupid).

Personally, I believe I deserve hell twice.  I've started holding my hand out, over fire--just to get ready.

All praise the All loving GOD!
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 03, 2011, 09:37:29 AM
My Grandmother told me god gave verbal instruction about salvation to his prophets, such as Enoch. She then made me read:

Romans 1:18-20 (NIV) 18. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I also found this forum thread (2007) to be an interesting topic of debate between Muslims and Christians:

"Christians: Are All Those That Died Before Jesus Going To Hell Fire?"

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-94399.0.html

Wow scanning that for a few minutes...dang...a lot of non-answers pretending they are answers. Angrily insisting that answering a yes/no question with niether yes or no, is an answer. And There's no false dichotomy here: If there is only two possiblities of an aferterlife: Heaven or Hell...then it has to be one of the two.

I think Milton had the most equitable and just answer with the first circle of Hell being kind of a paradise.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: changeling on November 03, 2011, 09:42:08 AM
  Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow, rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.

They did not need for you to bring them hope because they did not know that they were doomed to begin with.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: gonegolfing on November 03, 2011, 09:43:44 AM

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So I asked them, "Did our ancestors, who never heard of Jesus Christ, get to heaven"?

Well, I don't know what good that question can do when asked by a theist to another group of theists, others than appease all of them and make OT god out to be the best thing going, even better than cheese toast with a picture of his son on it !... But, at least the rational person knows exactly what the answer to that question is  ;)

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Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?

Yes, and isn't that's the persistent and pertinent question that is continually asked about the whole god/jesus/heaven idea throughout all the ages:--  Where is the logic ?...... &)

There's one logical fact that is for sure though.....And that is, that the people who have never been exposed to the divine scapegoating jesus myth with all its immoral bloodletting and violence, are the luckiest people that have ever lived.  ;)

I for one, sure as fuck wish I had been one of them  >:(
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 03, 2011, 10:13:54 AM
Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.

For very strange definitions of the word "deserve", such as "ape", and "like".

You know, Christians have this very strange outlook, where God judges you by "sin", as if that's some kind of goal post that the cosmos automatically centers around. It's so bashed into them, that they don't realize the absurdity of it. Why doesn't God judge people by "productivity", or "IQ", or "sexual prowess", or "number children he has", or "contributions to mankind", or "artworks", or "science value".

No, God is interested in how much you masturbate, because this is really really really really really fucking interesting to God.

Why doesn't Jesus save me from my lack of productivity, or lack of IQ, or lack of children? No, Jesus saves me from my masturbation.

Paul said that Jesus saves us from the curses of the Old Testament, so once you are saved by Jesus, you live for 900 years like Noah. NOT.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 03, 2011, 10:26:20 AM
He said it's impossible for anyone to enter heaven if they weren't a Christian.

I agree with that totally. So rare for a Christian to have a 1% of a fucking clue.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 03, 2011, 10:44:40 AM
In the books that make up the Bible, Heaven, quite frankly is very enigmatic and not well defined. The best scriptural definition one could likely surmise is that Heaven is wherever God dwells and not necessarily a specific point on the cosmic map. That would mean that "going to Heaven" simply meant that one was going to be where God is.
In religion, specifically Christianity, Heaven is strangely more well defined and less of a mystery than it is in the pages of scripture. It is thought of as a definitive "place" where souls, (dissembodied humans) will go at some point following their death (dissembodiment). This "place" is thought of as some etherical realm yet it is described in physical terms. Hmm?

Some of the problems that the accepted religious idea of Heaven poses is the immortality dilemma. For Heavon or Hell to be what the religion claims, humans must be innately immortal with an undying component. If that is the case, then death as we observe it is truly irrelavent and there is no real value to "Earthly" life at all other than providing a means by which man's soul can lose access to Heaven and have to spend eternity in the religious Hell. That means that 'humanicide', and specifically infanticide are sensible and loving acts to commit to insure that Heaven awaits all. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: naemhni on November 03, 2011, 10:58:52 AM
That's all very true.  Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity.  We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: One Above All on November 03, 2011, 11:02:39 AM
That's all very true.  Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity.  We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

This is what I call "people realizing the truth"[1]. It's that little spark of rational thought that's so deep inside their heads that only a great tragedy (in this case, death of a loved one) can "jump start" it.
EDIT: I think that, deep down, religious people are just afraid of death and can't admit it to themselves, so they make up this wonderful story where they go up to a wonderful place after they die and then believe in it.
 1. I always recall this quote from Mark Twain when I see these things: "A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time."
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: fungusdrool on November 03, 2011, 12:04:28 PM
That would mean that "going to Heaven" simply meant that one was going to be where God is.

Isn't God everywhere?  You know, like as in one of the omni's?
Does this imply God cannot see into Hell?

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: pingnak on November 03, 2011, 01:40:34 PM
Omni-presence.  Yeah.  Big Brother is always right there, lookin' over your shoulder while you masturbate.

Actually, 3D view all around at the same time.  Every nook and cranny. 

Jesus knows you didn't scrub your cuticles.

Jesus knows you got a bit of spinach between your teeth.

Always watching.

Always watching.

(http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/17567224/view/1/producttypecolor/120/type/png/width/280/height/280/jesus-watches-you-poop_design.png)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 03, 2011, 03:37:26 PM
That would mean that "going to Heaven" simply meant that one was going to be where God is.

Isn't God everywhere?  You know, like as in one of the omni's?
Does this imply God cannot see into Hell?

Perhaps the whole omni thing is a bit overstated........
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 03, 2011, 03:49:58 PM
Jehovah's Witnesses have all that sh!t covered. Grace, works, life, death, missioning, the whole shebang.

Sooner than you think, any day now, before you know it, practically yesterday, right away, could be tomorrow, almost immediately, Armageddon will come. This will be a mighty battle: big bad voodoo daddy Jehovah, his kid Jesus and all the good people of the earth,  versus Satan, his demonic minions and all the bad people of the earth. Jehovah will win and then he will reign forever and ever.

There are 144,000 people already chosen by Jehovah God to be in heaven with him after Armageddon. That's it. How do you know who is chosen by god's grace? "They just know", I was told when I asked. I also noticed that those are the only people allowed to eat the unleavened bread and drink the wine at the annual Lord's Evening Meal and passover service[1]. In the predominantly black congregation we went to, there were two really old white ladies who were the chosen. Nobody else.

If you are not one of the old white ladies chosen, you do not get to go to heaven, but you will get a chance at the second place prize, behind Door Number Two: eternal life in the brand spanking newly refurbished Garden of Eden paradise that Jehovah God will create after Armageddon. In the "This Time, Definitely Paradise", there is no suffering or killing or pain or sneaky serpents or problems of any kind. God's promise. Every ill will be healed. Wild animals will be tame.(Will lions and tigers have flat teeth like cows?) 

We will beat our swords into plowshares. Our overdue library books will be magically renewed. We will all have our own theme songs. Gum will no longer stick to our shoes. We will remember where we left our spare reading glasses. Internet porn will be free and have no pesky popup ads. Lassie will finally come home.

In pictures, everyone is strolling through what looks like a large city park, in smiling international but racially segregated family groups, clad in traditional clothing, gathering fruit and playing with lions and bears. It looks excruciatingly boring, and we are talking eternity here. Nothing ever dies. (I asked my father what do people and animals eat besides fruit since there is no killing and thus no meat. He said that Jehovah would provide us with special holy food.)

Jehovah's Witnesses get first dibs on the eternal life love train, because they are the only ones who really have the truth. It is therefore the job of every JW to convert as many people as possible to the truth. If you are not a JW, good luck. You will get a goodness test and if you pass, you get eternal life. If you flunk, well you just die forever. Anyone who dies before Armageddon sleeps until they are resurrected and given the test. Then they go to their assigned final destination.

See? Neet, suite and compleat. But is it remotely plausible? Jehovah God is leaving the room and will NOT be taking any questions.
 1. so-called because, as my older brother said, the trays get passed over our heads
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 03, 2011, 04:42:17 PM
Jehovah's Witnesses have all that sh!t covered. Grace, works, life, death, missioning, the whole shebang.

Sooner than you think, any day now, before you know it, practically yesterday, right away, could be tomorrow, almost immediately, Armageddon will come. This will be a mighty battle: big bad voodoo daddy Jehovah, his kid Jesus and all the good people of the earth,  versus Satan, his demonic minions and all the bad people of the earth. Jehovah will win and then he will reign forever and ever.

There are 144,000 people already chosen by Jehovah God to be in heaven with him after Armageddon. That's it. How do you know who is chosen by god's grace? "They just know", I was told when I asked. I also noticed that those are the only people allowed to eat the unleavened bread and drink the wine at the annual Lord's Evening Meal and passover service[1]. In the predominantly black congregation we went to, there were two really old white ladies who were the chosen. Nobody else.

If you are not one of the old white ladies chosen, you do not get to go to heaven, but you will get a chance at the second place prize, behind Door Number Two: eternal life in the brand spanking newly refurbished Garden of Eden paradise that Jehovah God will create after Armageddon. In the "This Time, Definitely Paradise", there is no suffering or killing or pain or sneaky serpents or problems of any kind. God's promise. Every ill will be healed. Wild animals will be tame.(Will lions and tigers have flat teeth like cows?) 

We will beat our swords into plowshares. Our overdue library books will be magically renewed. We will all have our own theme songs. Gum will no longer stick to our shoes. We will remember where we left our spare reading glasses. Internet porn will be free and have no pesky popup ads. Lassie will finally come home.

In pictures, everyone is strolling through what looks like a large city park, in smiling international but racially segregated family groups, clad in traditional clothing, gathering fruit and playing with lions and bears. It looks excruciatingly boring, and we are talking eternity here. Nothing ever dies. (I asked my father what do people and animals eat besides fruit since there is no killing and thus no meat. He said that Jehovah would provide us with special holy food.)

Jehovah's Witnesses get first dibs on the eternal life love train, because they are the only ones who really have the truth. It is therefore the job of every JW to convert as many people as possible to the truth. If you are not a JW, good luck. You will get a goodness test and if you pass, you get eternal life. If you flunk, well you just die forever. Anyone who dies before Armageddon sleeps until they are resurrected and given the test. Then they go to their assigned final destination.

See? Neet, suite and compleat. But is it remotely plausible? Jehovah God is leaving the room and will NOT be taking any questions.
 1. so-called because, as my older brother said, the trays get passed over our heads

JW teachings on the afterlife as implausible as they may be are in fact more in line with what is actually written in the scriptures than most other Christian religions with the exception of 7th Day Adventists.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 03, 2011, 04:45:37 PM
JW's have their own translation of the bible and are considered the most literal of the millinarian fundamentalists.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 03, 2011, 05:02:04 PM
JW's have their own translation of the bible and are considered the most literal of the millinarian fundamentalists.

I've spent a minute or 2 reading the NWT over the years.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: fungusdrool on November 03, 2011, 05:35:33 PM
Perhaps the whole omni thing is a bit overstated........

Yes, perhaps.  That would allow for greater reconciliation with observed reality.

Does it actually state in any sanctioned Christian document that God *has* to be all-powerful and all-knowing and all-present?
Or is that another one of those vague points that we've inhereted and bolstered across the millennia?

Wouldn't it be funny if the literal bible god was not supposed to be more than a super-powerful shaman?
(Not really funny ha ha, but more funny that's the worst mistake in human history....)

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 03, 2011, 05:40:17 PM
That's all very true.  Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity.  We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

 Basically , if you have human emotions you can rest assured the we Christians will also , for the most part, have  many of the same ones.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 03, 2011, 05:54:08 PM

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.


Yes, this is the most obvious answer, and coming from a Christian, it's very understandable that you don't understand that the analogy is completely flawed. You see, the same job offer is open to you.  According to you, it's open to everyone who wants it. So the question becomes.. why do you not go accept the same dream job you always wanted with them?  All you have to do in order to be in the greatest place in the history of the universe for all eternity is somehow find a way to get that darned heart to stop beating.  Every person who cries out at the death of a loved one is, at heart, an atheist.  Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible. 

I'll never understand that.  If you all really believed the heaven nonsense, none of you would be here anymore. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 03, 2011, 06:29:46 PM
All this begs the question of why have an earthly existence (with numerous chances to screw up the whole trip to heaven gig) in the first place? What's with all the wasted space-time in the universe? What does Baseball God need with practice teams, farm teams, pee wees, little leagues, high school teams, college teams, minor leagues, major leagues. So then he can send only those who make the majors to heaven? Can't he just draft his dream team from the getgo? Why not just make heaven, put everyone in there and have done with it?  Easy peasy.

No need for snakes, trees, sacrifices, prophets, chosen people, unchosen people, holy texts, popes, burning lakes of fire, demons, false prophets, polytheism, monotheism, different churches and religions to choose between, heretics, schisms, religious wars, missionaries, and the chance of eternal hellish separation from god. Just heaven. Create humans. Put them in. Period. Done.

What's with the bait and switch, used car salesman, extended warranty plan, easy credit pitch? It's all about understanding the deal, right? God is offering the best setup ever. All you have to do is believe this and you get the deal. Actually you can also do good works, but only if you were born and died before Jesus. And not everyone can get there, even with good works and belief, because nobody gets a free ticket.

Unless you are a serial killer who honestly repents and accepts Jesus as your saviour in jail. But not if you engage in gay sex, in or out of jail. And here's a special small print exit clause about unborn fetuses and the mentally handicapped. Oh, yeah, whoa, you can't go if you have had or caused an abortion. Unless you feel really, really bad about it and try to stop other people who want to have abortions. (Except in the case of incest or the health of the woman.)(Or rape.) (By a stranger with a knife.) (Unless she had on a short dress. )

But remember, if you do know about the deal and are trying to be good, but still don't believe, you can't go unless at the last breath you do accept. Then it's all good. Got that? Now sign away all rational thought right here on the dotted line.

whiskey tango foxtrot
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 03, 2011, 06:45:40 PM

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.


Yes, this is the most obvious answer, and coming from a Christian, it's very understandable that you don't understand that the analogy is completely flawed. You see, the same job offer is open to you.  According to you, it's open to everyone who wants it. So the question becomes.. why do you not go accept the same dream job you always wanted with them?  All you have to do in order to be in the greatest place in the history of the universe for all eternity is somehow find a way to get that darned heart to stop beating.
It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.
Not in that they died Jeff.How in the world you took that and turned it into a call for mass Christian suicide is beyond me.You realize suicide would be considered a form of murder , correct?Also, when it's time for the ticker to stop ticking it will for sure.
Quote
  Every person who cries out at the death of a loved one is, at heart, an atheist.  Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible. 
Have you ever even opened a New Testament?
Quote
I'll never understand that.  If you all really believed the heaven nonsense, none of you would be here anymore.

Obviously, but hey...never say never ,I guess.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 03, 2011, 08:09:57 PM
Quote
  Every person who cries out at the death of a loved one is, at heart, an atheist.  Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible. 
Have you ever even opened a New Testament?

Yer, it says love your enemy, go out and heal people with plague, and eat the same food that lilies do. It provides no end of ways for the dedicated to end their lives within a week, or so. (That is, if you had faith... but I guess you have to have faith to follow Jesus, and make that leap. Or, you could just believe that Jesus said worship me, rather than follow, or emulate him, and keep safe and snug, watching Christian heavy metal.)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: pingnak on November 03, 2011, 09:03:48 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/philippines/7547954/Filipino-Catholics-crucify-themselves-to-mark-Good-Friday.html

REAL believers would stay up on their crosses and follow in their savior's footsteps!  They wouldn't be crucified 24 times, but ONCE.

Well, good thing I'm no judge of who a 'real' believer is.  These guys, the evangelicals who deny everyone else is 'christian', the white supremacists, etc.  All Christian enough to me.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 03, 2011, 09:04:19 PM
It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.

Yes, onesteward.  You already said that.  I got that.  The thing is, however, you don't HAVE to be separated from the loved one.  In your belief system, you have every opportunity to BE with the loved one any time you want.  All you have to do is stop living and you will be with the one you love forever in the greatest place in the history of the universe.

Not in that they died Jeff.

In your belief system, death is nothing more than a transition from one place to another.  It's not really "death" per say.  Its just moving to a different place... A much better place...  That you yourself can go to anytime you want.  You make it sound like death is a big deal.  Why?  For you Christians, dying is the greatest thing you could possibly do for yourself.  At the very least, you should be working on a crab boat off the coast of Alaska.  That way you risk your life every time you go to sea. 

How in the world you took that and turned it into a call for mass Christian suicide is beyond me.

I'm not calling for Christians to kill themselves, because I know death is final.  What I am doing is asking why you all choose to keep living when the greatest thing ever waits for you when you die.  Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?  Where does the logic fail for you? 

The difference is that I can think about the consequences of such a scenario in a rational, reasonable way, and you seem not to be able to do so.  What I wonder is how you can NOT see it that way.  The analogy you put up makes it sound like the job opportunity is NOT open to you.  In your world view, it is.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you think Heaven is the greatest place ever, right?  And you think all your loved one's will be there, right?  And it's eternally awesome, right?  What are you not understanding?  Why would you not go there?

If you were offered the greatest job in the history of the universe, and all you had to do to get it was one simple thing, why wouldn't you do it?  Seriously.  I want to know. 

You realize suicide would be considered a form of murder , correct?

No, it's not.  Murder is defined by Dictionary.com as the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. It says nothing about killing yourself. I call murder, murder and suicide, suicide.  They are different words with different meanings.  But OH, I forgot, I'm talking to a Christian... where day doesn't really mean day, and death doesn't really mean death.  You guys mix up words all the time to suit your own agendas.  I try not to do that. 

But isn't it entirely possible that God is making me write this message to you because He wants you to consider killing yourself so He can be with you in the eternal, blissful realm of heaven? 

Also, when it's time for the ticker to stop ticking it will for sure.

Yeah, and all those people who kill themselves (over a million a year), that was time for their ticker to stop ticking too, wasn't it?  After all, God knew they were going to do that.  Worse yet, killing themselves was all part of God's plan to begin with.  No matter what the cause behind it... When your ticker stops ticking, that was the time for the ticker to stop ticking.  That's about as much as you can argue there. 

Have you ever even opened a New Testament?

Never, not once.  Ever.  I've never even seen one.  What is it?  I don't like tests and that second word has the word "test" in it. 


Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 03, 2011, 10:46:15 PM
At the very least, you should be working on a crab boat off the coast of Alaska.  That way you risk your life every time you go to sea. 


No, no. Crab boats off the coast of Somalia, so you can convert pirates to Christianity.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: naemhni on November 04, 2011, 06:29:13 AM
That's all very true.  Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity.  We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

That's a very bad analogy.  Here's a better one.

As one who believes that death is the end of everything, I wouldn't immediately fall to the floor crying my eyeballs out in grief and despair when my wife went to the grocery store.[1]  She's only going to be gone for an hour or two, right?  So there's simply nothing to get upset about; an hour or two out of an entire lifetime is nothing.  I'd scarcely even give it any thought.

Similarly, according to your belief system, if, say, your mother dies, you'll be apart for maybe thirty years or so, then you're together again for all eternity.  Just as an hour out of a lifetime is nothing, so thirty years out of eternity is nothing.  If you truly do have the strength of your convictions, then there's nothing for you to be upset about at a loved one's death.  And yet you are upset.
 1. I'm not married, this is just a hypothetical.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 04, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
At the very least, you should be working on a crab boat off the coast of Alaska.  That way you risk your life every time you go to sea. 

For some reason, god doesn't want his creations to risk their lives, because that would be deliberately trying to get to heaven....which is bad, m'kay?  Except that it is a good thing to risk your life doing something god approves of....say, missionary work in Somalia.

But what about the smaller bits?  Should a Christian jog, eat right, stay healthy?  Or east McDs every day, no veggies, no exercise?  Seems like - again - the latter is bad in god's eyes.....he wants you to keep away from heaven for as long as possible.

But then.....should we EVER see an unhealthy Christian?  Should not every Christian there is be eating their 5 a day, jogging regularly, reducing cholesterol and salt?  Well, no....we see Christians getting unhealthy just as much as atheist and anyone else.

So tell me, onesteward.....what IS the rule?  Can Christians take risks, or not?  Should they do everything they can to keep out of heaven for as long as possible, or is it okay to just eat unhealthy and hope for a nice early heart attack?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: gonegolfing on November 04, 2011, 08:13:02 AM
Someone who really believed in God and heaven would find a way to get there as quickly as possible. 

I'll never understand that.  If you all really believed the heaven nonsense, none of you would be here anymore.


Yes Jeff  ;)

Yet doctors offices are full of christians all the time, fighting tooth and nail and taking fist fulls of medications to stay alive and in this reality.  &)

People of faith who firmly believe in a heaven and who get a cancer diagnosis, shouldn't be running all frenzied to get chemo treatments arranged, but should be happily going to get the services of a funeral home arranged....shouldn't they ?

There's only one primary answer to why christians do not want to die and go to heaven as quick as we might think:---Fear of god.

As a theist, this was why I was always fearful of dying:--- I found it extremely sobering and unnerving that I was going to have to immediately stand before god, and without any say in the matter, was going to have to experience him having a go at me and judging all that my life was.....Yeah Yeah Yeah, christians love their god, but the fear of it, is what grips them most and that fear of it is made manifest in their strong desire to hang around in this world and reality as long as humanly possible.......They cling to this life with this fear strongly at the forefront of their minds and desperately try to keep building and banking up points and good works that will make this eventual meeting with their maker go as much in their favour as possible.

I've always felt that theists who come here to WWGHA probably have the greatest levels of fear of their god. They feel that coming directly into the camp of the enemy and fighting toe to toe with them is something that their god will take note of and make his judgements on them go easier. They feel it's a risky and bold move on thier part and not sure if their god will like it, but if they could possibly be successful here then their hoping that there will be more accolades from god and less chance of there being a judgement from god that deems them a poor or failed christian. 

Every person who thinks they're heaven bound, would love to be able to just wave at god from a distance as they go through the pearly gates, but no, we're told that there's a preliminary and non-optional one on one judgement session with that ever peering note taking god before you get to heaven or even get near those heavenly gates  :-[

What believer in their right mind would be in a hurry to get to that nail biting interview ?  ;D
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: rev45 on November 04, 2011, 08:32:27 AM
So tell me, onesteward.....what IS the rule?  Can Christians take risks, or not?  Should they do everything they can to keep out of heaven for as long as possible, or is it okay to just eat unhealthy and hope for a nice early heart attack?
(http://c.cslacker.com/1178l.jpg)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on November 04, 2011, 08:45:44 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/philippines/7547954/Filipino-Catholics-crucify-themselves-to-mark-Good-Friday.html

What..the..fuck.

Quote
You realize suicide would be considered a form of murder , correct?

Suicide is not murder as others have pointed out though Christianity condemns suicides as a form of blasphemy that would be punished in hell regardless.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 04, 2011, 09:53:48 AM
That's all very true.  Following the same logic, people who attend funerals, if they really are true believers, should be dancing around with joy at the thought of their loved one rejoicing in heaven for all eternity.  We never see this, though... the loved ones are always weeping and wailing, as though the person who has died is actually, you know, dead.

I think it's kind of like this actually:If a loved one was accepted for a position overseas that they had always dreamed of I would be happy for them and yet sad for the time we would be separated....even knowing it would be temporary.

 Basically , if you have human emotions you can rest assured the we Christians will also , for the most part, have  many of the same ones.

I'm sure you do.  I'll offer my own example.  My husband has been away for about  year now, working contract stuff.  He's coming back to live with me in a week, which is very nice.  We were about 300 miles apart and visited when we could.  Now, I missed him.  However, that emotion is NOTHING like what I experienced when my dear friend died and what I have observed other people experiencing the death of loved ones, e.g. my husband's sister (real live evangelical Christian) having to be physically restrained from her mother's casket becasue she wouldnt' let go for them to take it to the graveyard.  To claim it's the same is outright ridiculous.

If heaven is so great, (and ignoring the bible which says no one but a few Jewish eunuchs will get in, everyone else getting "New Jerusalem"), Christians should be volunteering for dangerous but helpful tasks.  Clearing land mines, clearing errant cluster bomblets, driving fuel trucks to our soldiers in Afghanistan, etc.  All extraordinarly dangerous things that need done.  Someone who wants heaven should be lining up for this, to do good for his fellow man and to get off this sinful rock that they supposedly are so upset by.  But they aren't.  You have good people of various faiths and none at all doign this work or you have people who need money so badly that they take these kinds of jobs for their families.   

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 04, 2011, 12:08:16 PM
Perhaps the whole omni thing is a bit overstated........

Yes, perhaps.  That would allow for greater reconciliation with observed reality.

Does it actually state in any sanctioned Christian document that God *has* to be all-powerful and all-knowing and all-present?
Or is that another one of those vague points that we've inhereted and bolstered across the millennia?

Wouldn't it be funny if the literal bible god was not supposed to be more than a super-powerful shaman?
(Not really funny ha ha, but more funny that's the worst mistake in human history....)


One thing that jumps out at me about the Bible and for that matter the overwhelming majority of religious texts and superstitions is that they are generally extremely geocentric focusing almost entirely on mankind and life on Earth from its inception to some type of ultimate culmination.
In the the texts, gods are usually man's progenitors, man's benefactors, and man's ultimate judges. What that tells readers is that for what ever reason, these gods seem to have a vested interest in man and perhaps even man's habitation. Why? Some say it's, presuming these gods exist in some fashion, because mankind is the offspring of these entities.

In order to attempt to reconsile theology with that which is realistic one might be better served to conclude that tha "gods" were simply extra terrestrials that perhaps came across a barron and lifeless planet with potential or resources they deemed vital and sowed the seeds of life on Earth many eons ago.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 04, 2011, 07:30:25 PM
It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.

Yes, onesteward.  You already said that.  I got that.  The thing is, however, you don't HAVE to be separated from the loved one.  In your belief system, you have every opportunity to BE with the loved one any time you want.  All you have to do is stop living and you will be with the one you love forever in the greatest place in the history of the universe.
I can't speak for you Jeff but I have more than one person whom I love .They aren't all saved either.So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

Not in that they died Jeff.
In your belief system, death is nothing more than a transition from one place to another.  It's not really "death" per say.  Its just moving to a different place... A much better place...  That you yourself can go to anytime you want.  You make it sound like death is a big deal.  Why?  For you Christians, dying is the greatest thing you could possibly do for yourself.
True enough Jeff. Jesus referred to it a 'sleep' on more than one occasion as I  recall.I still think we are to live out our life as best we can to be of service to God.
Quote

  At the very least, you should be working on a crab boat off the coast of Alaska.  That way you risk your life every time you go to sea. 
Not with these flippin' knees!!, I shouldn't.
I've been noticing lately people have been dying all over the place...strange.I wonder if my odds of getting killed in a plain old car wreck are greater or less than being killed  on a crab boat.I'm in New England so with winter weather and all I'm probably rolling the dice every time I drive my vehicle.

How in the world you took that and turned it into a call for mass Christian suicide is beyond me.


I'm not calling for Christians to kill themselves, because I know death is final.  What I am doing is asking why you all choose to keep living when the greatest thing ever waits for you when you die.  Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?  Where does the logic fail for you?
Interesting....you know death is final.I think you believe it ,maybe.Maybe.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 04, 2011, 08:22:14 PM
I can't speak for you Jeff but I have more than one person whom I love .

Then take them all with you!

They aren't all saved either.

Truth be told, none of them are.  Including you. 

So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

Right.  All of them who, deep down inside, know it's all bullshit.  You saying "I guess I'll live out my life as it is" would be akin to getting that greatest job offer in the world and saying, "Nah, I'm gonna keep shlepping burgers at McDonald's". 


True enough Jeff. Jesus referred to it a 'sleep' on more than one occasion as I  recall.I still think we are to live out our life as best we can to be of service to God.

What service can you possible offer a being (in this life) that can already do anything it wants?
 
I've been noticing lately people have been dying all over the place...strange.

With 7 billion people, I hardly think people dying is strange.  Work in an OB/GYN unit for a while.  You'll see people being born all over the place.  Strange...

You know death is final.I think you believe it ,maybe.Maybe.

You're correct.  I believe it.  With the same veracity with which you believe it's not.  The thing is, however, I'm living my life consistent with my belief, and you are not.  I BELIEVE this is the only chance at life that I get, so I am doing my best to make the most of it.  You say you BELIEVE that the next life is far better, yet you are living your life as if this is the one you want to stay in. And if you became sick, I dare say you would fight very hard not to die.  That is inconsistent with what you claim to believe.  If you were being consistent, you would go to the next life ASAP. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 05, 2011, 12:10:26 AM
And if you became sick, I dare say you would fight very hard not to die.  That is inconsistent with what you claim to believe.  If you were being consistent, you would go to the next life ASAP.

It's because they know when they are saved, but if they make the slightest slip up, they might not be saved. On one hand Jesus saves you unconditionally, but one false move and he doesn't. You can never really tell, so it's best to live a life of mediocrity, just to be on the safe side. Jesus calls for mediocrity in the gospels.

I quote from Mark 16:3  Yea, come follow me, and be mediocre. Consider the antelopes; do they strive to be above others? Nay, for they are medicocre. The hypocrite rips his clothes in public; God shall forsake him. Do what your right hand does, even though you know not what it does. It is from this confusion that I teach. For those that understand me shall be the last.

Clear?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 05, 2011, 06:03:10 AM
It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.

Yes, onesteward.  You already said that.  I got that.  The thing is, however, you don't HAVE to be separated from the loved one.  In your belief system, you have every opportunity to BE with the loved one any time you want.  All you have to do is stop living and you will be with the one you love forever in the greatest place in the history of the universe.
I can't speak for you Jeff but I have more than one person whom I love .They aren't all saved either.So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

And if they have been WRONG to do so for 20 centuries....?  I did ask you to be specific as to what god wants Christians to do.....should they do everything they can to stay on earth longest (take no risks, exercise, eat right)?  Or should they do everything they can - short of actual suicide - to get to heaven sonest (take risks, east crap)?

Your answer seems to be.....bumble along just anyhow.....eat a bit poorly, sometimes go on a rollercoaster, go to the doc when I'm puking but screw the annual physical.....doesn't sound like much of a "plan" to me.

Bumbling Along Anyhow.....Yahweh's Plan For Humans

They aren't all saved either.

Interesting.  So you associate with the unbeliever, like the Bible specifically tells you NOT to do.

Why?

One day, they will be burning forever, screaming in the unimaginable torment of hell.  Frankly, I couldn't bear to be friends with someone I knew that was going to happen to.  I might well witness to them, sure - try to get them to believe - but the emotional ties of friendship?  Nope.

And when you are in heaven....will you remember them as your friends?  Will your every day in heaven be coloured and joyless because you keep thinking about Steve and Amy being tortured mercilessly every second?  What a horrible afterlife for you, with every good experience tarnished by the knowlege that people you love will NEVER share it, and are - every moment, every second - in unimaginable pain.

Or will you forget them all instantly when you get to heaven?  In which case, one might ask, why bother with friendships with people you will see for (say) 5 years, but then have no memory of for the next 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 (and more) years?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 05, 2011, 05:07:56 PM
I can't speak for you Jeff but I have more than one person whom I love .

Then take them all with you!

That is the plan.It takes time, though. I guess that is one reason I'll be here for now.

They aren't all saved either.


Truth be told,
You don't know the truth, Jeff,so...incorrect.


 none of them are.

 Incorrect



  Including you. 

and incorrect.



So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

Right.  All of them who, deep down inside, know it's all bullshit.
Wrong again.


 You saying "I guess I'll live out my life as it is" would be akin to getting that greatest job offer in the world and saying, "Nah, I'm gonna keep shlepping burgers at McDonald's".

I think of the whole thing more along these lines Jeff:
I'm offered the greatest job imaginable and told that it's waiting for me whenever I get there to take it.I don't have to worry about getting a late start because job security is for eternity.One request is made of me though..."Could you possibly schlepp burgers for another 5 minutes 'til the next schlepper shows up? Out of total gratitude I of course agree,looking forward to my new position which will be starting in an incredibly short period of time.


True enough Jeff. Jesus referred to it a 'sleep' on more than one occasion as I  recall.I still think we are to live out our life as best we can to be of service to God.

What service can you possible offer a being (in this life) that can already do anything it wants?

As a witness, preacher, teacher , burger schlepper....pretty much whatever He would like me to do.
 
I've been noticing lately people have been dying all over the place...strange.

With 7 billion people, I hardly think people dying is strange.  Work in an OB/GYN unit for a while.  You'll see people being born all over the place.  Strange...

You know death is final.I think you believe it ,maybe.Maybe.
You're correct.  I believe it.  With the same veracity with which you believe it's not.  The thing is, however, I'm living my life consistent with my belief, and you are not.  I BELIEVE this is the only chance at life that I get, so I am doing my best to make the most of it.

What kind of stuff would that entail for you?If you don't mind me asking.


  You say you BELIEVE that the next life is far better, yet you are living your life as if this is the one you want to stay in. And if you became sick, I dare say you would fight very hard not to die.  That is inconsistent with what you claim to believe.  If you were being consistent, you would go to the next life ASAP.
Simply put
Jeff, there are things here we are to do.For how long I don't know.Do I enjoy life? Sure. Jesus said He gives us life more abundantly, to that I can testify ..in my own life- He certainly has.
As it is our life is described by Christ as a whisp of smoke, to which I say true again.The kids grow too fast, loved ones die too soon, time and gravity wreak havoc on our bodies and on  and on.I don't have to fulfill my own life somehow...I'm heading towards a beginning , not an end.If I can serve Him while I'm here that is , to me anyway, an honor and a priveledge.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on November 05, 2011, 05:45:33 PM
Quote
As a witness, preacher, teacher , burger schlepper....pretty much whatever He would like me to do.

You're either deluded or misguided in your thoughts thinking that an all powerful and all knowing God, essentially the creator of the universe, loves being showered with praises and compliments akin to a prissy 16 year old teen girl while at the same time needs the services of bumbling mortals such as yourself.

Also, would your list include being a murderer, rapist or hate-filled individual? Certainly those things or at least certain attributes of them are what your God wants.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 05, 2011, 05:52:15 PM

They aren't all saved either.




Interesting.  So you associate with the unbeliever, like the Bible specifically tells you NOT to do.
Why?

Really? Even family members?So, we're not to witness to people?Not allowed to work anywhere there are unbelievers? I always thought we are going to be in the world just not of the world.
Could you give me those scriptures...I'd like to read about that .
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 05, 2011, 08:55:21 PM
That is the plan.It takes time, though. I guess that is one reason I'll be here for now.

Is that the best you've got?  "No thanks, I don't want the best job in the history of the universe.  I'm really trying to make the most of this one and see how it turns out."? 

Ridiculous.  The only reason you stay here on earth is because deep down inside you know the whole thing is a lie.  Otherwise you would go.  I will say this again... anyone who ACTUALLY BELIEVED that the next life was eternal and far better than this one would leave this life as quickly as possible.  It's completely illogical to stay here.  I might even go as far as to say the most devout Christians are the ones who risks their life as often as possible in hopes of dying.

You don't know the truth, Jeff,so...incorrect.

You know, onesteward.  I don't know if you are doing it intentionally or not, onesteward.  But you are writing my name a lot in these posts.  I envision you saying it with a very condescending... almost "I have something to teach you son" attitude.  I do not know if you are doing that on purpose, but if you are, please stop.  While you may think you have something to teach me, onesteward, please understand that I know you are not correct here.  You think God is real, but it's not.  Not even close.  It's ridiculous to think it's true.  It's asinine.  Stupid.  Foolish.  So, onesteward, nobody is saved, onesteward.  Nobody at all. Not you, not anyone you know.  Nobody.  And do you know why?  Because we have nothing to be 'saved' from.  There is no Christian God.   

I think of the whole thing more along these lines Jeff:
I'm offered the greatest job imaginable and told that it's waiting for me whenever I get there to take it. I don't have to worry about getting a late start because job security is for eternity.One request is made of me though..."Could you possibly schlepp burgers for another 5 minutes 'til the next schlepper shows up? Out of total gratitude I of course agree,looking forward to my new position which will be starting in an incredibly short period of time.

So the reason you don't go to the greatest job in the history of the universe... a job you will never leave and get paid better than anything you could possibly get from somewhere else... is because you are waiting for the next person to come along and... take your place?   Your entire earthly life is an elongated version of the 2 week notice? 

What kind of stuff would that entail for you?If you don't mind me asking.

Learning about the world, spending time with my wife and children, helping people with their injuries...  The things that I personally find meaningful.  All of which would mean nothing to someone who believes the next life is the only important one.   

Simply put
Jeff, there are things here we are to do.

Any of which God could do himself. 

Do I enjoy life? Sure. Jesus said He gives us life more abundantly, to that I can testify ..in my own life- He certainly has.

I've never believed in God and I can testify that living life without Jesus is pretty damn abundant. 

As it is our life is described by Christ as a whisp of smoke, to which I say true again.

Exactly.  To you, this life is a whisp of smoke!  This is exactly what I'm saying to you.

To me, it's everything.  In every sense of the word, I value this life way more than you do.  You simply can not value this life nearly as much if you think the next one is the greatest one you will ever have.  This is one of the biggest problems with Christianity.  There is no care for the future of THIS world.   

I don't have to fulfill my own life somehow...I'm heading towards a beginning , not an end.If I can serve Him while I'm here that is , to me anyway, an honor and a priveledge.

It's idiotic.  That's what it is... onesteward.  You aren't serving God. There's no such thing.  You've been led to believe a giant lie.

Just... grow up.  It's freaking 2011.  Snap out of it.   
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 05, 2011, 09:43:18 PM
What I find a bit dumb about the afterlife, is that there is no conceivable reason for it. Theists say "we are here to live this life and learn lessons from it", but there are no lessons in this evolutionary life that could possibly apply to a world without evolution. All the bad things in this world, that we are supposed to overcome, to be a successful religionist, are the product of resource constraints and competition in this life. All afterlife scenarios in all religions teach of how things will be abundant in the next life, so why are we here to learn to be frugal and modest? What good is that, where the streets are paved with gold, and virgins are on tap? Theists have no idea at all what an afterlife is for, or why you'd go to it. It's all vague crapola, designed to bribe poor people. Despite a "prophet" coming along, he still does not explain why we are here, and what an afterlife could be for, and why God would value selflessness above artisticness.

The Hebrew rules are just rules for control; they care nothing about creativity, intelligence, art, productivity, technology, environment. They are essentially an ancient bureaucracy, designed to keep Israel in control, so they never mention anything positive. They then made a virtue of following these laws to excess, and had to invent a reason why you'd devote your life to such negative tedium. Oh, obviously there's an afterlife! *slaps forehead* We'll just stick that onto Judaism with a glue stick. What's an afterlife for? Who gives a shit?

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 06, 2011, 02:13:11 AM

 You saying "I guess I'll live out my life as it is" would be akin to getting that greatest job offer in the world and saying, "Nah, I'm gonna keep shlepping burgers at McDonald's".

I think of the whole thing more along these lines Jeff:
I'm offered the greatest job imaginable and told that it's waiting for me whenever I get there to take it.I don't have to worry about getting a late start because job security is for eternity.

I see.  So, once you have accepted the job - accepted Christ - there is nothing whatsoever that could happen that could see the job offer withdrawn?

Brilliant.  "I accept Christ".  Looks like I'm now sorted for all eternity......right?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 06, 2011, 02:21:36 AM
They aren't all saved either.
Interesting.  So you associate with the unbeliever, like the Bible specifically tells you NOT to do.
Why?
Really? Even family members?So, we're not to witness to people?Not allowed to work anywhere there are unbelievers? I always thought we are going to be in the world just not of the world.
Could you give me those scriptures...I'd like to read about that .

I was thinking of Luke 9:5....and I mentioned witnessing, you know.  But frankly, its a side issue - which I suspect is why that's the only bit of my question you wanted to answer.  Here's the important part again for you:

One day, they will be burning forever, screaming in the unimaginable torment of hell.  ..... And when you are in heaven....will you remember them as your friends?  Will your every day in heaven be coloured and joyless because you keep thinking about Steve and Amy being tortured mercilessly every second?  What a horrible afterlife for you, with every good experience tarnished by the knowlege that people you love will NEVER share it, and are - every moment, every second - in unimaginable pain.

Or will you forget them all instantly when you get to heaven?  In which case, one might ask, why bother with friendships with people you will see for (say) 5 years, but then have no memory of for the next 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 (and more) years?

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 06, 2011, 03:35:58 PM
Is that the best you've got?  "No thanks, I don't want the best job in the history of the universe.  I'm really trying to make the most of this one and see how it turns out."?


As long as I am here and alive I will continue to do what I can to bring as many others as possible to "The New Job" too.It's really a simple concept.



Ridiculous.   The only reason you stay here on earth is because deep down inside you know the whole thing is a lie.  Otherwise you would go.
This is where the term ' ridiculous' belongs, after your statement.


 I will say this again... anyone who ACTUALLY BELIEVED that the next life was eternal and far better than this one would leave this life as quickly as possible.  It's completely illogical to stay here.
You have absolutely Zero understanding of an ACTUAL BELIEVER'S response or reaction toward anything.Unless of course you are claiming here that you were a true believer at some point.




 It's completely illogical to stay here.

No, very logical.If our being here facilitates other people getting saved then it's is the right thing to do.I believe it does.


  I might even go as far as to say the most devout Christians are the ones who risks their life as often as possible in hopes of dying.

They risk their own lives in the hope others will be saved.I do consider them among 'the most devout' as well.



You know, onesteward.  I don't know if you are doing it intentionally or not, onesteward.  But you are writing my name a lot in these posts.  I envision you saying it with a very condescending... almost "I have something to teach you son" attitude.  I do not know if you are doing that on purpose, but if you are, please stop.

 It wasn't on purpose .



 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: pingnak on November 06, 2011, 04:19:35 PM
I'm willing to posit that people who believe in an 'afterlife' might stay on earth for the same kinds of reasons that they would finish a movie, book or video game.  See how it turns out, emotional investment, etc. 

Plus they'd lose all their 'stuff'.  Their toys.  Their possessions.

It's shocking how materialistic many people are, really.  Especially many allegedly 'spiritual' people. 

I try to keep my possessions pared down to what serves me, yet still they accumulate, and I'm forced to purge them, now and then. 

My simple rule: Things serve me, I don't serve the things.

If you follow that rule, you will not accumulate crap.  Crap that needs to be 'taken care of'.  Kept 'safe'.  People are slaves to crap.

But other people, well, they just latch on to junk.  In some cases, even literal garbage.  They can't let it go.  Every bit of junk is their 'my precious'.  You can't get them to let go of any little thing.

As someone who doesn't see a need to pack his garage full to the rafters, or pile his rooms to the ceiling with junk, I've discovered a terrible threat to my simple, spartan ways:  The very MICROSECOND someone else perceives (gasp!) empty space in my home, they want to pack THEIR shit into it!

They even offer to 'pay'.

Well, fuck you!  Go pay a storage place that deals with pack rats and their garbage.  I don't need to deal with it.  It stands there 'empty' so that I can walk THROUGH it.  So I have OPTIONS for what to do with that space. 

MY home does not need stacks of boxes.

Plus it won't do you a damned bit of good.  You'll just replace the vacated space with MORE crap.

There's probably a metaphor in there for religious belief.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 06, 2011, 05:25:38 PM
As long as I am here and alive I will continue to do what I can to bring as many others as possible to "The New Job" too.It's really a simple concept.

Actually, it's a fucking stupid concept.  You postulate an all powerful being who, at any second, could give every single person on the planet the exact thing they needed in order to become a believer, yet you somehow think it's YOUR job to do it?  It doesn't add up onesteward.  It doesn't add up.  When are you going to realize that this God of yours is a fairy tale, and that the only reason you, yourself are a believer is because some other deluded fool conned you into it too?  And by trying to bring as many others as you can to this "new job", you are actually only bringing people into your own delusion.  That's sick.  It's twisted.

You have absolutely Zero understanding of an ACTUAL BELIEVER'S response or reaction toward anything.Unless of course you are claiming here that you were a true believer at some point.

If I were ever a true believer (in my definition of the term), I would have killed myself to be with God.  Obviously I was never a true believer.  And neither are you.

The thing is, I understand an actual believers response.  It's one of fear.  They're afraid that the whole thing might really be a lie, and they are not willing to risk their life to find out.  The difference between them and I is that I have the capability to analyze the behavior from outside the belief system.  When you do that, it turns out to be completely illogical.   

No, very logical.If our being here facilitates other people getting saved then it's is the right thing to do.I believe it does.

Refer again to what I said above.  If God wants people to be believers, he would give them exactly what they needed.  If he does not, he won't.  The notion that God somehow needs your help to make new believers is lunacy.  He's fucking God, isn't He?  Do you really think an omnipotent being would need YOU to do work for him?  Do you really think the best option God has is to send in an army of deluded, gullible, non-critical thinking fools to 'save' people?  LOL! 

Your being here only pisses rational people off.  All you are doing is trying to create more deluded sheep for your flock of idiots, while the rest of us work our asses off to make this world a better place for humanity.  Plus the fact that every single word you type drives me further and further away from God.  So I guess you're a massive failure at doing what you say you're here to do.  Thanks a lot.  I'm going to burn in hell thanks to you. 

Oh wait.  No I'm not. I forgot there for a second.  NONE OF IT'S REAL.   

It wasn't on purpose .

I've known too many self-righteous Christians to think that's true, onesteward. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 06, 2011, 06:07:09 PM
Sounds like god's will for us on earth is to participate in the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time. Like Shaklee or Amway or a chain letter, each person recruited has to keep on recruiting others with the promise of getting the prize at the top. As soon as you realize that the whole thing is a scam, it all collapses and you feel like six kinds of a fool. But you have to keep on with the scam, because you have so much invested and all those other people to be an example to. That is how cults work,  BTW. No surprise.

If that is all what god wants for us on earth, and the real paradise of heaven awaits, I still can't see why a true believer would not want to take off and claim the prize asap and leave the recruitment to the suckers left behind. And once you figure out the real deal, why not just head on to heaven immediately, taking as many other true believers with you as possible?


As I previously posted:

"All this begs the question of why have an earthly existence (with numerous chances to screw up the whole trip to heaven gig) in the first place?"

"Why not just make heaven, put everyone in there and have done with it?  Easy peasy. No need for snakes, trees, sacrifices, prophets, chosen people, unchosen people, holy texts, popes, burning lakes of fire, demons, false prophets, polytheism, monotheism, different churches and religions to choose between, heretics, schisms, religious wars, missionaries, and the chance of eternal hellish separation from god. Just heaven. Create humans. Put them in. Period. Done."

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 06, 2011, 08:18:06 PM

 I will say this again... anyone who ACTUALLY BELIEVED that the next life was eternal and far better than this one would leave this life as quickly as possible.  It's completely illogical to stay here.
You have absolutely Zero understanding of an ACTUAL BELIEVER'S response or reaction toward anything.Unless of course you are claiming here that you were a true believer at some point.

You make a distinction between an "actual believer", and a believer as the bible tells believers to be. Now I see the distinction.

The bible says that the world is about to end, so you should ditch your Jewish parents (Luk 14:26), sell all your assets and live in a commune (Acts 5:2), use the power of Jesus to cast out demons and sickness, pray and give in secret, and actively love your enemy.

However, I can understand why an ACTUAL BELIEVER would like to ignore the NT, and make a religion out of worshipping Jesus, rather than following him.

It is said by Christians that not all people have that "calling". From this I derive that there must be a spectator class of Christians, rather like spectators at sporting events, who seem to know how to play the game, even though they never do.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 07, 2011, 11:08:12 AM
Jeff, there are things here we are to do.For how long I don't know.Do I enjoy life? Sure. Jesus said He gives us life more abundantly, to that I can testify ..in my own life- He certainly has.
  And as speaking as a former Christian and now an atheist, I can say that this isn't true, not in my case at all.  I have a much more loving abundant life when I gave up such nonsense that told me that I could only accept certain people because of the words of book full of errors, xenophobic "morals" and primitive superstition.  I didn't have to be a hypocrite anymore.  As for others, well, I can see Christian after Christian and see none of them having any better life than me.  So much for any anecotal claims by Christians, they aren't seen out by actual evidence.

Quote
As it is our life is described by Christ as a whisp of smoke, to which I say true again.The kids grow too fast, loved ones die too soon, time and gravity wreak havoc on our bodies and on  and on.I don't have to fulfill my own life somehow...I'm heading towards a beginning , not an end.If I can serve Him while I'm here that is , to me anyway, an honor and a priveledge.
Again, we see that Christians indeed should be volunteering for useful but dangerous work, and how curious it is that they don't.   All I see here is a Christian who is indeed afraid that he is wrong and that he takes refuge in claiming that his god doesn't "really" expect him to actually act as if he believed so he can safely insist that this god doesn't need him to fulfill his "own life".  It becomes magically "God's will" that Christians don't have to walk the walk.   
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 07, 2011, 11:42:09 AM
In the course of my last decade as a Bible believing apsiring Christian, my studies brought me to the point where I concluded that no one living beyond the first century could accurately label themselves as Christians of the ilk of those mentioned in the NT scriptures. Anyone or any group that has attempted to carry that mantle since the first century in my estimation is either deluded, misinformed, ignorant of the scriptures, or is purposely joining a "knock off" or cheap imitation of what was said to exist in the middle parts of the first century.

Remember that RealChristians, those that were said to have lived then, were witnesses and doers of miraculous things. That's not even the biggest thing though. Those individuals taught and expected that their "eternal reward" would be realized within the lifetime of their generation. Christianity, if you want to call what they were a part of that, was NOT indended to be a worldwide religion that endured for 2000 plus years on the Earth! Their faith centered around a living and risen Jesus, as saviour and judge, coming back for them to redeem them FROM the Earth so that they could forever be with him in his God-given Kingdom.

If Christianity as we know it today is a continuation that is directly connected to the believers of the first century, then what they taught and expected failed EPICALLY! If one truly believes the Bible narrative as it relates to Jesus and his Ekklesia, then one would realize that that gathering was to be taken from this Earth centuries ago and that all people not a part of it would simply live out their lives as was the case in the world prior to the events described at Sinai in Exodus since there no longer exists, upon the Earth, a group that is actually "God's chosen people." 

The conclusion then is this; Christianity and the church that promotes it is a farce and a fruadulent entity that has been duping the masses for centuries. The modern "church" no more belongs to Jesus of Nazareth than does the FFRF. WHat the church does do is prop up men in positions of authority allowing them to speak as representatives of God in order to control and influence the masses. If those held in this regard to noble and good, it can have a good effect, but when those in these positions are not, then the Christian religion can have a malignant effect on the world it influences.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 07, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Actually, it's a fucking stupid concept.  You postulate an all powerful being who, at any second, could give every single person on the planet the exact thing they needed in order to become a believer, yet you somehow think it's YOUR job to do it?  It doesn't add up onesteward.  It doesn't add up.
My job it to testify.I tell people they can be "born again" because I have been.To me, that means anyone can be.The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.
  When are you going to realize that this God of yours is a fairy tale, and that the only reason you, yourself are a believer is because some other deluded fool conned you into it too?

I tried to think of something further from the truth than that statement but so far I keep coming up 'empty- handed'.



  And by trying to bring as many others as you can to this "new job", you are actually only bringing people into your own delusion.  That's sick.  It's twisted.
You don't have a option to see it any other way, do you?


If I were ever a true believer (in my definition of the term), I would have killed myself to be with God.  Obviously I was never a true believer.  And neither are you.

Obviously not in "your definition".We'd both be dead.Someone else would be taking care of our families and so on.


The thing is, I understand an actual believers response.

Actually , you don't understand 'Jack', Jeff.


 It's one of fear.  They're afraid that the whole thing might really be a lie, and they are not willing to risk their life to find out.
Have you ever heard of "The Underground Church"?
The Christians in North Korea or Saudi Arabia?Statements like the one you just made make you sound ignoirant of the subject you claim to have such insight into.


  The difference between them and I is that I have the capability to analyze the behavior from outside the belief system.  When you do that, it turns out to be completely illogical.   

Of course it does! That's like analyzing a movie by standing on the outside of the building while it's playing.



Your being here only pisses rational people off.  All you are doing is trying to create more deluded sheep for your flock of idiots, while the rest of us work our asses off to make this world a better place for humanity.
How are you accomplishing that?What kind of stuff are you doing?


  Plus the fact that every single word you type drives me further and further away from God.  So I guess you're a massive failure at doing what you say you're here to do.  Thanks a lot.  I'm going to burn in hell thanks to you.

I don't know that it was about you.The hell part is entirely on you.
 

Oh wait.  No I'm not. I forgot there for a second.  NONE OF IT'S REAL.    

That would be the part in the movie ( the one you haven't seen yet) where the enemy of your 'soul' takes his straw and drinks your milkshake.

It wasn't on purpose .


I've known too many self-righteous Christians to think that's true, onesteward.

Oh, ok.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 07, 2011, 08:11:42 PM
The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.

That's exactly what the Quran and Mohammad teaches about the Quran. (That's what any religious book without external evidence would say).

Can you explain why, if everyone gets "evidence enough", then why are there so many ex-Christians, or Christians struggling with their faith, and why do we have Christians coming here, like John 3 16, who state that you can't work at finding God, because God chooses you, irrespective of any "evidence" you believe.

Can you explain why Christians who say there is "evidence enough" then try to refute evolution? By doing that, they are clearly showing us that the Bible is not evidence enough; they are just showing us their hopeless insecurity. They know it's a problem that they can't stop up, no matter how many fingers they put in the dike, evolution always shows us how Christians don't really believe the bible is "evidence enough". The fight against evolution shows us that some Christians believe that the Bible is toppling over, and if they had to acknowledge that Genesis was wrong, their life would also fall over.

We are only taking your lead.

Can you explain why, if everyone gets "evidence enough", then why are the top theologians and half the clergy almost atheist? If all they have to do is be born again, then what is their problem? Is being born again so hard? Maybe there is a catch somewhere, that you aren't admitting to.

Why aren't you admitting something is wrong? Do you think that misrepresenting the situation facilitates our faith? We can see you are lying, How is that going to help us?

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 07, 2011, 09:13:21 PM
The conclusion then is this; Christianity and the church that promotes it is a farce and a fruadulent entity that has been duping the masses for centuries. The modern "church" no more belongs to Jesus of Nazareth than does the FFRF. WHat the church does do is prop up men in positions of authority allowing them to speak as representatives of God in order to control and influence the masses. If those held in this regard to noble and good, it can have a good effect, but when those in these positions are not, then the Christian religion can have a malignant effect on the world it influences.

Somebody's just getting warmed up :) 

My job it to testify.I tell people they can be "born again" because I have been.

You haven't been 'born again'.  You deluded yourself into thinking something about you changed, when in reality, it was just you all the time. 

To me, that means anyone can be.

To me, you sound like a gullible fool; who joined a cult full of other gullible fools.     

The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.

Yes, yes, I've read that too.  But here's the thing.  Those are just words in a book.  And those words don't mean 'Jack' to people who have an understanding that those words were written by seriously ignorant people.  The fact is, when those words were written, evidence of God's presence WAS everywhere.  From lightning, to disease, to earthquakes, famine, wind, rain, you name it.  Everything was evidence of God, because they used logic in the presence of insufficient evidence (Much like how one might come to the conclusion that chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows without proper information regarding cows and milk).  Fast forward a few thousand years and it's just as ridiculous to say that diseases come from God as it is to say "I'm a born again Christian".  There are now millions of reasons not to acknowledge God.  One important one being... there's no evidence He exists. 

I tried to think of something further from the truth than that statement but so far I keep coming up 'empty- handed'.

Why don't you just pray to God for one then? See what that gets you. 

onesteward, you're a deluded fool that was conned by another deluded fool, who was also conned by a deluded fool, all the way back to the first deluded fool who learned about God from the village idiot.   

You don't have a option to see it any other way, do you?

I'm not sure what you mean.  I could see it any way I like, but I prefer to see it for what it is.  I think bringing people into the delusion that there is an invisible man in the sky that loves everyone is ridiculous. I would feel the same way about anyone trying to bring people into a cult that says something strange like that.  I feel contempt for people like David Koresh and Rev. Jim Jones, and I lump your actions with theirs.  All of it is cultish behavior.  I'm not playing favorites here. You get no special free pass because you think you're doing a good thing for people.  So did those guys. 

Just because I don't see something the way you do, doesn't mean I'm wrong.  It could very well be that YOU'RE wrong. In fact, that's the truth.  God isn't real.  It's a fairy tale.   

Obviously not in "your definition".We'd both be dead.Someone else would be taking care of our families and so on.

What the hell do you care about your family for?  If they die, they get to go to the greatest place in the universe!   If I believed that my children would go to heaven when they died, I might be tempted to slit their throats tonight.  In point of fact, it would be extremely selfish for me not to!   

Actually , you don't understand 'Jack', Jeff.

mmhmm. 

How are you accomplishing that?What kind of stuff are you doing?

My profession is that of a physical therapist.  I spend all week healing people of their ailments.  I help restore people's quality of life.  When I'm not doing that, I work hard to be a great husband to my wife and I teach my children daily about the world around us, and I try hard to keep them away from people like you who might poison their minds.  I drive a hybrid, and I recycle in a state that doesn't require it.  I give blood regularly, and volunteer at my kids school every Friday afternoon.  On a planet with 7 billion people, I'm trying to at least do my part.

That would be the part in the movie ( the one you haven't seen yet) where the enemy of your 'soul' takes his straw and drinks your milkshake.

There's no such thing as a soul.  But I love milkshakes.  Nobody's drinking my milkshake. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Historicity on November 07, 2011, 09:14:32 PM
That's exactly what the Quran and Mohammad teaches about the Quran. (That's what any religious book without external evidence would say).

Au contraire.  One of Buddha's sermons was to a graduating class of missionaries who would go off to foreign lands.  Buddha told them not to get depressed if they never made a single convert because Buddhism is hard to believe.

For me that weighed on Buddha's side because unlike other preachers he was playing with a full deck.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Add Homonym on November 07, 2011, 10:23:36 PM
I'm not entirely sure what Buddhism is, enough to comment on it. There are too many factions. Some believe in hell, others have no concept of it. I don't even know if Siddhartha Gautama is any more historical than Jesus. But I take your point that only religious books that suffered from extreme pride and arrogance would say it.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 08, 2011, 10:43:37 AM
My job it to testify.I tell people they can be "born again" because I have been.To me, that means anyone can be.The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.
well whoop-de-do, the bible “teaches” this.  It also teaches a lot of lies, contradictions and utter nonsense.  Most if not all religions claim the same stupid thing, that *their* god created the universe and oooh, how can you not see it”.  So, onesteward, please do show me evidence that *your* god produced this universe.  But you can’t can you?  Everyone can ask and ask but the theist always fails.

I have no more reason to believe your claims than that of  a Muslim, a Hindu, a Shintoist, etc.  And I have plenty of reasons not to believe you at all, one of the best reasons that Christians lie.  You and your religion fail miserably at showing any evidence for your god. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 08, 2011, 03:52:40 PM
When I was a JW, we were taught that the most important thing we could do (besides irritating people on weekends with our literature) was to die in the service of Jehovah. We were supposed to envy people in countries where JW's are persecuted by dictatorships, because they got even more chances to die for Jehovah than anyone deserved.

I wonder why we were not encouraged to "witness" by doing dangerous jobs that serve society instead-- like those older Japanese technicians who took on the task of working in the radiated tsunami areas so younger people would be spared.[1]

"Man, those Christians really put themselves on the line. Digging out land mines in third world countries, exchanging themselves for hostages in bank robberies, serving as human shields for the police in Mexican gang wars, volunteering for risky medical research.  They really aren't afraid to die--they must truly believe in heaven."

If we had done stuff like that,  wouldn't that have been an even better witness for Jehovah God than just knocking on people's doors and being irritatingly "saved"?

But instead of "sacrificing this limited life for eternal bliss in heaven" being the main message of the religion, you see big megachurch pastors telling their flocks (by actions if not words) to be greedy and self-centered. Getting rich, driving a fancy car, having a best-selling book on how to beat your kids and a tv show that begs for more money what it is all about.

I think that is what we are getting at here, and what onesteward is avoiding.
 1. Those self-sacrificing Japanese, BTW, live in a largely atheist culture. Since they don't believe in an afterlife of wonderful rewards, they are risking the only life they have to help others. That makes them even braver IMO.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: onesteward on November 09, 2011, 07:25:22 PM
You haven't been 'born again'.  You deluded yourself into thinking something about you changed, when in reality, it was just you all the time. 
Not how it was at all.This is how it is:
Romans 8:16
 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
That's what happens when you are 'born-again'.
 

To me, you sound like a gullible fool; who joined a cult full of other gullible fools.

Of course it does, it's right here :   1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

And here too:  1 Corinthians 2:14
 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
   


Yes, yes, I've read that too.  But here's the thing.  Those are just words in a book.  And those words don't mean 'Jack' to people who have an understanding that those words were written by seriously ignorant people.  The fact is, when those words were written, evidence of God's presence WAS everywhere.  From lightning, to disease, to earthquakes, famine, wind, rain, you name it.  Everything was evidence of God, because they used logic in the presence of insufficient evidence (Much like how one might come to the conclusion that chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows without proper information regarding cows and milk).

Yet, throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.The very founders of my country realized the value The Bible held.The founding Fathers of modern science - Kelvin, Boyle,Newton, Faraday, Mendel and Kepler, to name a few were believers of these writings.They claimed ,as I do, life altering experiences based on them.Modern scientists ...thousands of them are believers.

For me then there can be no possible way to see the people as "seriously ignorant" who are responsible for the writings.Imagine!They have either collectively duped some of the most powerful and brilliant men and women who ever lived on our planet or were inspired by someone that through them could author a timeless work , one  that is still as powerful around the globe today as it has ever been.


  Fast forward a few thousand years and it's just as ridiculous to say that diseases come from God as it is to say "I'm a born again Christian".  There are now millions of reasons not to acknowledge God.


Sadly that reminds me of someting I heard Leonard Ravenhill say once: "There are a million roads thet lead into hell....none that lead out."  not sure if I quoted it exactly but close enough I think.




  One important one being... there's no evidence He exists. 

I don't know how anyone can be alive and not see the evidence all around us.Even Helen Keller was able to say regarding the Bible "Life grows richer and Heaven nearer as God's great truths unfold themselves to me."She was born deaf, dumb and blind and could discern the simple truth.



Why don't you just pray to God for one then? See what that gets you.

So far just a bunch of ties...maybe prayer and fasting and I can find a winner.It sure isn't for lack of effort on your part, though.



onesteward, you're a deluded fool that was conned by another deluded fool, who was also conned by a deluded fool, all the way back to the first deluded fool who learned about God from the village idiot.

I covered the 'fool' stuff previously.
   




There's no such thing as a soul.

Of course there is.



  But I love milkshakes.  Nobody's drinking my milkshake.
Too late , I'm afraid.If you find a cow in a very cold climate you might be able to get another one.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 10, 2011, 07:40:08 AM
......Here's the important part again for you:

One day, (your unbeliving friends) will be burning forever, screaming in the unimaginable torment of hell.  ..... And when you are in heaven....will you remember them as your friends?  Will your every day in heaven be coloured and joyless because you keep thinking about Steve and Amy being tortured mercilessly every second?  What a horrible afterlife for you, with every good experience tarnished by the knowlege that people you love will NEVER share it, and are - every moment, every second - in unimaginable pain.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 10, 2011, 10:16:01 AM
Yet, throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.The very founders of my country realized the value The Bible held.The founding Fathers of modern science - Kelvin, Boyle,Newton, Faraday, Mendel and Kepler, to name a few were believers of these writings.They claimed ,as I do, life altering experiences based on them.Modern scientists ...thousands of them are believers.
Yep, lots of Christians. And how many of them agree with your version of Christianity?  Newton was quite an iconoclast and heretic.  It’s always amusing to see Christians trot out these people as if Christianity was one happy whole, when it is anything but.  I always see Christians claim that huge percentages of humanity are Christian, but when it comes down to it, and I ask about sects individually, oh those “other” people aren’t TrueChristians  at all. 

And as for kings, queens and emperors, esteeming it, you know why, onesteward? Because it affirmed their right to rule aka the “divine right of kings” outlined in your bible, where God puts every single ruler into power and that everyone should obey them without question.

Quote
For me then there can be no possible way to see the people as "seriously ignorant" who are responsible for the writings.Imagine!They have either collectively duped some of the most powerful and brilliant men and women who ever lived on our planet or were inspired by someone that through them could author a timeless work , one  that is still as powerful around the globe today as it has ever been.
So what do you think about great scientists and leaders, etc who believe in other religions that you are sure are false?  Are they “seriously ignorant”?  Or do they simply fail in one part of their lives?

oh and evidence for this "soul"?  If you can say "of course there is", then you surely can put up evidence for that.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 10, 2011, 10:36:55 AM
You haven't been 'born again'.  You deluded yourself into thinking something about you changed, when in reality, it was just you all the time. 
Not how it was at all.This is how it is:
Romans 8:16
 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
That's what happens when you are 'born-again'.
 

Appeal to authority, unsupported assertion, appeal to personal credulity



To me, you sound like a gullible fool; who joined a cult full of other gullible fools.

Of course it does, it's right here :   1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

And here too:  1 Corinthians 2:14
 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Appeal to authority, Special Pleading( his magic book is not like those other supposed magic books


   

Yes, yes, I've read that too.  But here's the thing.  Those are just words in a book.  And those words don't mean 'Jack' to people who have an understanding that those words were written by seriously ignorant people.  The fact is, when those words were written, evidence of God's presence WAS everywhere.  From lightning, to disease, to earthquakes, famine, wind, rain, you name it.  Everything was evidence of God, because they used logic in the presence of insufficient evidence (Much like how one might come to the conclusion that chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows without proper information regarding cows and milk).

Yet, throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.The very founders of my country realized the value The Bible held.The founding Fathers of modern science - Kelvin, Boyle,Newton, Faraday, Mendel and Kepler, to name a few were believers of these writings.They claimed ,as I do, life altering experiences based on them.Modern scientists ...thousands of them are believers.

For me then there can be no possible way to see the people as "seriously ignorant" who are responsible for the writings.Imagine!They have either collectively duped some of the most powerful and brilliant men and women who ever lived on our planet or were inspired by someone that through them could author a timeless work , one  that is still as powerful around the globe today as it has ever been.


  Fast forward a few thousand years and it's just as ridiculous to say that diseases come from God as it is to say "I'm a born again Christian".  There are now millions of reasons not to acknowledge God.


Sadly that reminds me of someting I heard Leonard Ravenhill say once: "There are a million roads thet lead into hell....none that lead out."  not sure if I quoted it exactly but close enough I think.


Circular Reasoning, appeal to authority, appeal to negative consequences.






  One important one being... there's no evidence He exists. 

I don't know how anyone can be alive and not see the evidence all around us.Even Helen Keller was able to say regarding the Bible "Life grows richer and Heaven nearer as God's great truths unfold themselves to me."She was born deaf, dumb and blind and could discern the simple truth.


Appeal to authority, Appeal to personal credulity, Circular Reasoning





There's no such thing as a soul.

Of course there is.

Unsupported assertion. Ignoring the counterevidence.


Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 11, 2011, 06:28:41 AM
.....throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.......

Heh.  What's great about this is that for all those many, many centuries, the world has been at peace, with never a war or a harsh word between all the many Christian countries.  After all, with a True ChristianTM leading country A, and a True ChristianTM leading country B, there would never, ever be any disputes about what is BestTM.

The Rulers and those In Power are all, and have mostly always been, True ChristiansTM, just like Onesteward says.  Living their lives just like Jesus and revering his commands.  THAT's why all the Royal Families gave away most of their possessions, why there were no wars or border disputes, why the top priorities of all countries throughout the ages was looking after the poor and meek.

Snort.

Velkyn made a good point about how Monarchs would follow the party religious line (heh - worked well for Charles the First), but a similar point could be made about any elected politician.  Onesteward, what do you HONESTLY feel the chances are of a politician being elected today who is openly and proudly atheist?  What do you feel the chances were (say) two hundred years ago?  Do you think that - perhaps - many politicians have (and still do) professed lip-service to a religion as they know that otherwise the unthinking sheep will simply bleat them out of office?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 13, 2011, 06:37:59 PM
As we have often noticed, god seems to agree with his followers on political, social and economic issues. Since most Christians don't want to speed up the trip to heaven by doing dangerous work or committing suicide, god does not want that either! And in the US today, god has obviously changed his mind on taking care of the poor, old and sick, because many Christians have decided that they don't like to pay taxes. So much for "give unto Caesar..."
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: jaimehlers on November 14, 2011, 10:23:29 AM
onesteward:  If you can show me the evidence to demonstrate what you're saying, then I can accept that you have a point.  But there are a couple of ground rules.  First, no witnessing.  That's little more than you presenting your emotional rationale for believing, and I won't accept it as evidence of anything except that you believe.  Second, I do not accept scriptures from the Bible because they've been cherry-picked all the way down.

If you can come up with something to verify your claims in a way that will pass skeptical muster, then you'll have accomplished something no other Christian has ever done.  That, by itself, makes for a worthwhile endeavor, and it is something you can reasonably ask God for help with, because it will help to convince many people.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 11:37:14 AM
I would think that this has been covered before. However , what about the things in the Bible that talk about the earth being round,  There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written a brief list of Atoms (Hebrews 11:3, written 2000 years ago), Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11), Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6), round earth (Isaiah 40:22) , Second Law of Thermodynamics the Law of Increasing Entropy (Isaiah 51:6; Psalm 102:25,26; and Hebrews 1:11), Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41), Light moves (Job 38:19,20),Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6), Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech but did you know that radio waves move at the speed of light? (Science in the Bible, 2008)

Like I said I would think that this has been discussed before. Just would like to know your thoughts on it.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 14, 2011, 11:48:00 AM
Quote
There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written


How do we know this to be the case and why is it that we are so convinced that all the ancients were stupid and ill-informed? It is possible that they know and forgot stuff that we have yet to learn.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 14, 2011, 11:48:33 AM
^^^^If all this science was in the bible 2000 years ago, why did it take so long for people to discover these things independently? As has been pointed out here before, most scientists in the western world were Christians of some sort and were quite familiar with the bible. Strange that they never saw all this stuff in the bible....and only began to discover things when they moved away from the bible and investigated what they actually saw in nature.

Aside from the most basic science info that is not in the bible like "boil water to kill germs that cause disease; wash your hands before eating and after touching anything dirty". That simple message would have saved millions of lives over the past 2000 years. Funny how the bible missed that.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 12:21:18 PM
Quote
There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written


How do we know this to be the case and why is it that we are so convinced that all the ancients were stupid and ill-informed? It is possible that they know and forgot stuff that we have yet to learn.
well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech)
The fact of rather the ancients were stupid or ill informed was not the question. So I fail to see your point.

I am not saying that the Bible is correct in every way . I am just wondering how this knowledge was available at that time.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 14, 2011, 12:22:32 PM
I would think that this has been covered before. However , what about the things in the Bible that talk about the earth being round,
The word they use is round not sphere, which are two different words in Hebrew.  And the Greeks knew it was a sphere quite early.
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There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written a brief list of Atoms (Hebrews 11:3, written 2000 years ago),
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  1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Nothing about atoms here.  Only about how god created the universe out of “something” that you can’t see. Where is the decription of atoms, how they work?  Why nothing more than a vague claim for Christians to claim is a mention of an atom? And we can see atoms now, which would make the bible wrong.  Also the idea of an atom, as invisible thing that cannot be divided, is quite old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom#Atomism and not unique to the bible.
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Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11),
simple observation will tell you this.  You bleed out, you die.  They killed a lot of animals to this god in this way to know it quite well.
Quote
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6),
Why not think that there was valley and mountains under the sea if you see them around you?  Also is all of what is claimed in 2 Samuel, literally true? For instance
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14 The LORD thundered from heaven;    the voice of the Most High resounded.
15 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemy,    with great bolts of lightning he routed them. 16 The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare
at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils.
This is an example of Christians picking and choosing what is literal and what isn’t in their bible.
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round earth (Isaiah 40:22) ,
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22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
  As above, it says circle, not sphere.  And can you spread the heavens above a sphere?  You might about to wrap it about but the analogy fails here.
Quote
Second Law of Thermodynamics the Law of Increasing Entropy (Isaiah 51:6; Psalm 102:25,26; and Hebrews 1:11)
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6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens,  look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke,  the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies.
But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
Again, simple observation, and no mention of entropy.
Quote
24 So I said: “Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. 25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
   and the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. 27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.
  Same here. And Hebrews simply repeat the same thing.  And not one word about entropy, which if this god knew about it, why didn’t he just say it?  The usual Christian answer to this is that humans needed to learn up to that, but an omnipotent god could have made them understand. 
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Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41)
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39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
  This fails in quite few ways, and shows well how Christians cherry pick.  Man and mammals have the same flesh.  We all share DNA, if you really want to make up how the bible knows anything.  And “splendor” what does that mean exactly?  One is prettier than the other? They have different types of beauty?  We know that stars are quite similar, in how they are made, how they live and how they die.
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Light moves (Job 38:19,20)
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19 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
  Hmm light has a “path”.  A path would indicate it goes a certain way every time.  Does it do this? Doesn’t seem to.  I see that light supposedly “lives” somewhere and darkness is a separate thing. OH and here’s where there are supposedly warehouses for snow and hail
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22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,
and supposedly this god is responsible for lightning bolts.  No, we know what does that. Again God fails to use this opportunity to actually teach humans something. 
Quote
Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Observation gets one thing right for a certain location (does the southern hemisphere not exist?)and one thing utterly wrong.
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5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. 6 The wind blows to the south  and turns to the north; round and round it goes,  ever returning on its course.
the sun “hurries no where” and God could have taught humans that geocentrism was wrong how many thousands of years ago, kept various people alive who were burned as heretics?
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Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).
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13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken. 16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Job is always good for showing how Christians try to accept something and ignore others.  God is a great ass here with his boasting, which said now, would ring quite hollow.  Here we see that the earth is assumed to be flat (having edges and being as flat as a clay seal, along with spring of the sea (not in the sea) which could mean either by being generous, and that without appropriate gear, of course no human has walked in the depths of the sea, again, more simple observation.
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Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech but did you know that radio waves move at the speed of light? (Science in the Bible, 2008)

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  34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? 35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’? 36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]  or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
  Riley, do you accept this nonsense?  This seems to indicate that lightning bolts talk to this god.  Well we know what lightning bolts are and they don’t talk.  WE also know that ibises are birds not very bright, and neither are roosters who will crow at pretty damn near anything.
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Like I said I would think that this has been discussed before. Just would like to know your thoughts on it.

My thought are that Christians pick and choose to support their nonsense. They are so desperate for evidence of their god that they make up such pathetic nonsense as this.  I could also tell you from the bible that bats are birds, that somehow you can catch the cooties from a menstruating woman, that light can exist without a source, that magic floods can leave no evident, that one can indeed build a tower high enough to get to this god, etc, etc.   And most Christians will try to claim that those don’t count in just hwo wonderful their bible is with science.  The fact is that it isn’t. It’s full of nonsense from xenophobic ignorant men. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 12:25:47 PM
^^^^If all this science was in the bible 2000 years ago, why did it take so long for people to discover these things independently? As has been pointed out here before, most scientists in the western world were Christians of some sort and were quite familiar with the bible. Strange that they never saw all this stuff in the bible....and only began to discover things when they moved away from the bible and investigated what they actually saw in nature.

Aside from the most basic science info that is not in the bible like "boil water to kill germs that cause disease; wash your hands before eating and after touching anything dirty". That simple message would have saved millions of lives over the past 2000 years. Funny how the bible missed that.


They did wash (Halakha (Jewish law) requires that the water used for ritual washing be naturally pure, unused, not contain other substances, and not be discoloured. The water also must be poured from a vessel as a human act, on the basis of references in the Bible to this practice, e.g. Elisha pouring water upon the hands of Elijah. Water should be poured on each hand at least twice. A clean dry substance should be used instead if water is unavailable. (Wikipedia)

The boiling water would have been a good ideal..

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: naemhni on November 14, 2011, 12:30:54 PM
well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Riley, Job speaks of "the springs of the ocean", not "the springs in the ocean".  This means that the speaker presupposed that springs were the source of the ocean.  By way of comparison, if you were talking about "the springs of the Nile", you would be referring to the springs that create the river, not to springs in the river.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 12:39:18 PM
velkyn: No, I am not believing in anything without investigation. That is what I am doing. In doing so I am finding some very interesting things. Like; "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV). (By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

 I just figured that, being you and most of the people on this site have already discussed these things. So where better to go with questions about it.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 12:42:12 PM
well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Riley, Job speaks of "the springs of the ocean", not "the springs in the ocean".  This means that the speaker presupposed that springs were the source of the ocean.  By way of comparison, if you were talking about "the springs of the Nile", you would be referring to the springs that create the river, not to springs in the river.

Thank you. That may indeed be the meaning behind that.

That is why I am asking.
To have others thoughts on it.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 14, 2011, 01:06:43 PM
Quote
There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written


How do we know this to be the case and why is it that we are so convinced that all the ancients were stupid and ill-informed? It is possible that they know and forgot stuff that we have yet to learn.
well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech)
The fact of rather the ancients were stupid or ill informed was not the question. So I fail to see your point.

I am not saying that the Bible is correct in every way . I am just wondering how this knowledge was available at that time.

I'm not saying anything i reference to the Bible, so we can take the Bible's veracity out of the equation here. I just would like for someone to tell me why should we moderners be so convinced that none of the ancients possessed the knowledge and perhaps more, excluding industrial knowledge, that the most recent generations have possessed.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 01:17:14 PM
Truth OT : Before we could put any reasonable thought to your request, wouldn't we need to narrow down the knowledge you are referring to. An example may be of some help.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 14, 2011, 01:20:30 PM
velkyn: No, I am not believing in anything without investigation. That is what I am doing. In doing so I am finding some very interesting things. Like; "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV). (By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

 I just figured that, being you and most of the people on this site have already discussed these things. So where better to go with questions about it.

from what this fellow says, and seems to have quite a lot of evidence for it, the hebrews did indeed have a word for sphere: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html   

Another thing to indicate that the bible authors thought the world was flat, the incident where Satan takes JC up to a mountain top and they can see the entire earth.  That isn't possible on a sphere. 

as for the earth hanging suspended, that's rather silly since that's not what it does.  We also have Job claiming that the earth and heavens have pillars.  That would be rather difficult with putting a sphere on them, though not impossible. 

and more in job that makes no sense in reality and indeed shows that the bible authors didn't understand  much:

JOb 26:8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds,
   yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.

and the claims that things like Behemoth and Leviathan exist. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 14, 2011, 01:25:12 PM

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).



Even the expression "Over" indicates the primitive idea of a universal "down"
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 01:50:31 PM
Isaiah 40:22 refers to "the circle of the earth," or in the Italian translation, globo. The Hebrew is Khug = sphericity or roundness. (I stand corrected.)

Even if the translation "circle" is adhered to, think about Neil Armstrong in space,to him the spherical earth would have appeared circular regardless of which direction he viewed it from.

  as for; JOb 26:8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds,
   yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.

In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

AS for the  things like Behemoth and Leviathan . Maybe they had a really big dog. maybe some really strong weed. Other than that , I really don't know.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 02:01:53 PM
There is some much out there to learn , so many different thoughts and beliefs. Facts that I never before let enter my mind. Trying to cover it all while at the same time trying to not let my own beliefs lead me to a bias conclusion is a lot more difficult then I thought.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 14, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

I highly doubt it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that rain falls and flows into the streams.  Also, God doesn't 'draw up' drops of water as if He had some sort of suction device.  It's evaporation.  Any mention of that?  And the rains are not abundant for all of mankind.  There are many places in the world where water just doesn't fall enough to sustain human life.  Other areas get so much that they are flooded out constantly.  Does that sound more like naturally occurring rain, or rain dictated by a supernatural being who makes it the perfect amount for everybody?  Just think it through. 

AS for the  things like Behemoth and Leviathan . Maybe they had a really big dog. maybe some really strong weed. Other than that , I really don't know.

It could be that they just made it up. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 14, 2011, 02:55:20 PM
Isaiah 40:22 refers to "the circle of the earth," or in the Italian translation, globo. The Hebrew is Khug = sphericity or roundness. (I stand corrected.)
Even if the translation "circle" is adhered to, think about Neil Armstrong in space,to him the spherical earth would have appeared circular regardless of which direction he viewed it from.
 
Old old excuse and it fails because the bible author isn’t seeing the earth from space and doesn’t already know that the earth is a sphere.  They are seeing it from the surface.  It appears flat on the surface unless you know what to look for, like the mast of a ship sinking below the horizon.  The moon looks flat, and there is no reason to think the bible authors thought the moon or the earth was a sphere.  Now, we do know that early astronomers did figure that out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon#Early_studies but there is nothing to say that the Israelites did in anyway.  We do know that the Israelites were very wrong in what they thought, for example that light did not need a source, the sun and moon were both “lights” (not needed until a couple days after “light” was made), etc.

And we still have the problem of the earth being like a clay stamp, that it has edges, etc. 

Quote
as for; JOb 26:8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds,
   yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.
In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:
"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).
  and what does the hydrological cycle have to do with clouds containing water like bags?  Nothing.  Clouds are water, they are not some separate vessel that can burst.
Quote
"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).
Yep, and again, Riley, you pick and choose from your bible, claiming that it’s scientific but when it says something primitive then you ignore it.  We have the bible claiming that God lives in a pavilion, that he spreads clouds (no that’s weather, not god) that this god uses lightning like Thor, etc.  Again, we have observation and then nonsense.  No god needed at all.
Quote
27 “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; 28 the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind. 29 Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion?
30 See how he scatters his lightning about him, bathing the depths of the sea.
31 This is the way he governs the nations and provides food in abundance. 32 He fills his hands with lightning and commands it to strike its mark. 33 His thunder announces the coming storm; even the cattle make known its approach.


Quote
AS for the  things like Behemoth and Leviathan . Maybe they had a really big dog. maybe some really strong weed. Other than that , I really don't know.

Ah, so as long as it sounds funny, you can write it off and poof, the bible doesn’t have to be right.  But when Christians try to claim similar nonsense is “proof” that the Bible knew science long before modern humans, then it’s true, it’s true!  That’s the convenience of a Christian who picks and chooses.  You “know” things when you want to but when you find something that’s ridiculous, your sure knowledge vanishes.

If the bible has so much supposed science, why is it more often wrong than right? Why is it written so vaguely that it isn’t clear at all what is really meant, and only retconned by Christians into “science”?  Again, this god, by its evident incompetence, either intends people to be killed for its inability to get its message across or simply can’t help it, and thus makes the universe seem just as it would be with no god at all.

I know it can be hard to come to realize that your fellow Christians can lie to you, Riley, but that’s exactly what happens.  Creationists rely on misquotes, misrepresentation of science, and the bible itself with their claims of having the only “correct” interpretation, and outright lies to try to create support for their claims.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 02:55:51 PM
JeffPT:
I had a very wise person tell me (when I started posting on here) a few things, I felt they had a lot of merit.
1. never start a post with the words, I feel . I believe. or I highly doubt.
   and I agree with you that now everyone, more than likely knows what evaporation is. And yes there are many places that does not have enough water. However we are not talking about now. We are talking about then, and I do not have the correct knowledge of what places had plenty of rain fall and what places did not back in the time  or times the Bible was written. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the bible I am just researching to see where it all brings me. As for Behemoth, maybe they did make them up , but for what purpose? I do however find it hard to think that Dino could have been around at that time.

I can see where you could discover new information and then go back into a text that has already been written an make the new information seem to fit the old text.
That may have very well been done. However, it to, would be understandable to see how some of the early writings could be taken for knowledge beyond their time.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 14, 2011, 03:13:51 PM
Riley:
Quote
Trying to cover it all while at the same time trying to not let my own beliefs lead me to a bias conclusion is a lot more difficult then I thought.
Sure, that's difficult (and +1 for understanding the problem).

Here's an idea; instead of looking at the supposed science in the Bible, why not look at the science in the Qur'an, thus side-stepping your bias? Muslims make similar claims to Christians, that the Qur'an contains modern knowledge unknown at the time of writing, thus proving Allah's omniscience. And they do this in the same fashion; they take some ambiguous verse and then insist it is referring to something modern, ignoring any inconsistencies, and ignoring what people in the 7th Century did actually know.

This is quite a modern game for Christians and Muslims, by the way; as far as I know this strategy has only been used in the last two or three decades.

Here's a list of the Scientific Miracles of the Qur'an (http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html); hopefully you'll be able to see what the author is doing, as well as spotting the many inaccuracies.

(My favourite is "The Ears are Active during Sleep", which contains the extraordinary claim that "According to recent scientific discoveries, the ear is the only sensory organ active while a person is sleeping. This is why we need an alarm clock to wake up". See the error there, Riley?).

Once you've understood the Muslim strategy, you'll have more understanding of how we view the Science of the Bible.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 03:45:31 PM
velkyn :  I really am [/s][/s]
not cherry picking the Bible[/s][/s] maybe I am. I am beginning to think that is what we all do to prove or disprove a point.  And maybe we are missing the point , I read something once  that I am finding that I agree with:
I see it as wrong to try to draw out scientific data about the creation of the universe from Genesis one. Both young-earth creationists and old-earth creationists are guilty of pouring modern scientific terms back into Genesis. God could have written in scientific terms like E=mc2 , but He did not. I believe God had to accommodate himself to our limited knowledge, and limited language to communicate with us. God did not choose to use technical scientific terms to communicate with us. God used the common language, and familiar phrases of their day. God could have told us that the sun does not rise nor set, but that the earth is spinning around the sun. God instead used the common language of sunrise and sunset which was literal to the writers back then, but which modern concordists excuse as phenomenal language that we still use today. God is trying to communicate absolute spiritual truths, not shifting scientific theories.

God's purpose of inspiration is clearly stated in II Timothy 3:16 which says that the Bible is inspired by God so that it is profitable for instruction in righteousness not instruction in science. To take a poem and use it as a scientific text is wrong. It is like trying to use a hammer as a screwdriver. It does not work. One must understand the historical context and meaning of the original language that the Bible was written in.


I am finding that the belief or nonbelief in the Bible and God is just that, A belief that is based on faith and nothing more. And that is what it should be. Looking down on people because their belief or lack of somehow makes them unintelligent or evil in someway is absurd. I have no doubt that the debate over the existence of God will go on for years and more that not , the same old facts and cherry picked verses of the bible will be put up as evidence. The facts are what they are and some of them are impossible to deny. To do so would insult the very brain that some believe God gave them.
I do not agree with every thing that I have heard here in the last couple of weeks, But to deny every fact that was set before me would not only insult my intelligence but my faith. If I think God can be explained away then I have no faith. But when facts are put in front of me that I can not deny, then to deny them would , well , be stupid. ( really no other way to say it)

 To all that has put up with me over these last few days, I thank you , and would only ask that you understand believing what you have always believed is hard to give up. So some Christians may not understand or accept facts, even if they are undeniable.
 And for the Christians that come here. Anyone that believes someone is evil or should just die because their mind stays with the facts as they know them. You should be ashamed, and you need to go back in that Bible you have and reread what is and is not Christ like.
As for why God allows evil things to happen. As to why God punishes when he is suppose to be an all loving God. I don't know. After talking to and reading some of the post here and really looking at the facts that were put before me. I have found out that I don't know alot of things I once thought I did.
        Again thank you for your kind help in trying to teach A Christian that he should open his mind and not be afraid of the truth and the facts that are there for all to see. You was nothing like I believed I would find on a site like this. Even if I am still a believer in A God I can't prove, You all have my respect.  I hope you don't mind me bouncing in and out from time to time.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 14, 2011, 04:13:31 PM
velkyn :  I really am [/s][/s] not cherry picking the Bible[/s][/s] maybe I am. I am beginning to think that is what we all do to prove or disprove a point.
Well, it’s all *some* people do.  There’s a difference between taking facts and quoting a book that has nothing to show that it should be trusted and taking those quotes out of context.  Again, why does the bible get something apparently close to right, and some others totally wrong? Was god not paying attention?  And you might not be personally cherry picking but the sources of your posts are.  Christians want to believe that their brethren wouldn't tell them a lie, but unfortunately, we have a stack of Chrisitans who all spread the same nonsense and who don't question it.
Quote
And maybe we are missing the point , I read something once  that I am finding that I agree with:
I see it as wrong to try to draw out scientific data about the creation of the universe from Genesis one. Both young-earth creationists and old-earth creationists are guilty of pouring modern scientific terms back into Genesis. God could have written in scientific terms like E=mc2 , but He did not. I believe God had to accommodate himself to our limited knowledge, and limited language to communicate with us.
This fails since it assumes that your god can’t do something.  Is it or is it not omnipotent?
Quote
God did not choose to use technical scientific terms to communicate with us. God used the common language, and familiar phrases of their day. God could have told us that the sun does not rise nor set, but that the earth is spinning around the sun. God instead used the common language of sunrise and sunset which was literal to the writers back then, but which modern concordists excuse as phenomenal language that we still use today. God is trying to communicate absolute spiritual truths, not shifting scientific theories.
And failing at both dramatically.  We have Christians who all claim that their version is the only “absolute spiritual truth”.  This also begs the question, and I’ll use the Jesus Christ Superstar version of it: 
Quote
If you'd had it planned Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?

If you'd come today, You could have reached the whole nation. Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication
One of my favorite “operas” ever.  Your god could have told humanity those things and kept Giordano Bruno alive.  Could have advanced us far in our science.  But, your god is strangely limited to humanity’s timeline.  It’s just like medicine.  It could have taught germ theory, but no, we get “menstruating women will give you cooties!”.  It’s primitive and ignorant. If God had said, “You idiots, the earth moves around the sun”, there is no reason people couldn’t have understood it nor is there a reason that God had to intentionally let them believe a lie, and this certainly isn’t a “shifting scientific theory”. Heck it could have helped this god establish its bone fides, to tell one truth.   Your argument is the same that tries to excuse slavery, claiming that humans couldn’t have possibly understood anything else. 
Quote
God's purpose of inspiration is clearly stated in II Timothy 3:16 which says that the Bible is inspired by God so that it is profitable for instruction in righteousness not instruction in science.
So it isn’t to be taken as scientifically valid anymore?  Then why do so many  Christians insist that it is to be taken as such.  This again demonstrates that Christians can’t agree on much of anything in their religion.
Quote
To take a poem and use it as a scientific text is wrong. It is like trying to use a hammer as a screwdriver. It does not work. One must understand the historical context and meaning of the original language that the Bible was written in.
and we finally come to the problem of how do you determine what is what in the bible? What is metaphor? What is literal? What is poetry and what isn’t?  I know the historical context, Riley.  It was just one more Bronze/Iron age community that needed a mythos to explain the world and to declare how much better they were than anyone else. And I also have the original meaning of the language.  We have how many translations of the bible now?  And each Christian is sure that the Holy Spirit tells them what God “really” meant, and each differs.  There is no way to determine what was “meant” other than going with context, history, archaeology, etc.  And none of those disciplines support the events claimed in the bible or the existence of a god. 
Quote
I am finding that the belief or nonbelief in the Bible and God is just that, A belief that is based on faith and nothing more. And that is what it should be. Looking down on people because their belief or lack of somehow makes them unintelligent or evil in someway is absurd. I have no doubt that the debate over the existence of God will go on for years and more that not , the same old facts and cherry picked verses of the bible will be put up as evidence. The facts are what they are and some of them are impossible to deny. To do so would insult the very brain that some believe God gave them.
Riley, to tell me that my not believing the bible is on “faith” is ridiculous.  I have evidence that shows the bible is wrong.  It’s not faith, it’s facts. No evidence of any of the events claimed or the god supposed behind everything.  I do agree that it is faith to believe in stories that have nothing to back them up.  If you still believed in Santa Claus or fairies or leprehcauns, I think I would have plenty of reason to consider you at best naïve and at worst not too bright.  I suspect you would feel the same way about me if I believed in such nonsense.
Quote
I do not agree with every thing that I have heard here in the last couple of weeks, But to deny every fact that was set before me would not only insult my intelligence but my faith. If I think God can be explained away then I have no faith. But when facts are put in front of me that I can not deny, then to deny them would , well , be stupid. ( really no other way to say it)
What facts do you have that support the existence of your god, Riley?  One way to know a fact is to keep pushing at it.  If it gives way, and you can deny it and rebut it with more facts, then it wasn’t a fact.
Quote
To all that has put up with me over these last few days, I thank you , and would only ask that you understand believing what you have always believed is hard to give up. So some Christians may not understand or accept facts, even if they are undeniable.
I know that, Riley.  I was once a Christian and I know how hard it is to give up feeling like some big powerful being in the sky cares for you and only you, that this being will take care of everything.  IMO, religion infantilizes humans, makes them childish, and unable to think for themselves.
Quote
And for the Christians that come here. Anyone that believes someone is evil or should just die because their mind stays with the facts as they know them. You should be ashamed, and you need to go back in that Bible you have and reread what is and is not Christ like.
That’s one of those problems for Christians, Riley.  What is indeed Christ-like?  We have the JC who is “love thy neighbor” and then we have the one who calls Samaritan woman “dogs”, says that some people deserve to be damned because God doesn’t want them to every understand and that those who don’t accept him should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19, parable of the minas). 

Quote
As for why God allows evil things to happen. As to why God punishes when he is suppose to be an all loving God. I don't know. After talking to and reading some of the post here and really looking at the facts that were put before me. I have found out that I don't know alot of things I once thought I did.
And that’s always good, to keep learning. 
Quote
Again thank you for your kind help in trying to teach A Christian that he should open his mind and not be afraid of the truth and the facts that are there for all to see. You was nothing like I believed I would find on a site like this. Even if I am still a believer in A God I can't prove, You all have my respect.  I hope you don't mind me bouncing in and out from time to time.
  We have another fellow like you, OldChurchGuy, who does the same.  I would just ask you to keep thinking and not return to a comfortable but mistaken belief.  At least consider the things you took as “evidence” for your god and not pass them along as if they were facts.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 14, 2011, 04:50:08 PM
^^^^If all this science was in the bible 2000 years ago, why did it take so long for people to discover these things independently? As has been pointed out here before, most scientists in the western world were Christians of some sort and were quite familiar with the bible. Strange that they never saw all this stuff in the bible....and only began to discover things when they moved away from the bible and investigated what they actually saw in nature.

Aside from the most basic science info that is not in the bible like "boil water to kill germs that cause disease; wash your hands before eating and after touching anything dirty". That simple message would have saved millions of lives over the past 2000 years. Funny how the bible missed that.


They did wash (Halakha (Jewish law) requires that the water used for ritual washing be naturally pure, unused, not contain other substances, and not be discoloured. The water also must be poured from a vessel as a human act, on the basis of references in the Bible to this practice, e.g. Elisha pouring water upon the hands of Elijah. Water should be poured on each hand at least twice. A clean dry substance should be used instead if water is unavailable. (Wikipedia)

The boiling water would have been a good ideal..

Ritual washing is not what I was talking about, although that would certainly have worked if the ritual was connected to washing before eating, after using the toilet and when working around sick or dead people. Such a simple action, but not widely known about or performed until the late 19th and early 20th century. If there was an all-knowing, caring god, why did he waste so many pages of his holy book on how to manage slaves, who begat who and lists of clean and unclean animals? Why didn't he just tell people about germs?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 14, 2011, 05:15:00 PM


Ritual washing is not what I was talking about, although that would certainly have worked if the ritual was connected to washing before eating, after using the toilet and when working around sick or dead people. Such a simple action, but not widely known about or performed until the late 19th and early 20th century. If there was an all-knowing, caring god, why did he waste so many pages of his holy book on how to manage slaves, who begat who and lists of clean and unclean animals? Why didn't he just tell people about germs?
[/quote]
2.Netilat yadayim La'Pat ("Raising [after ritually washing] the hands for bread"), also known as Mayim Rishonim. which is done with a blessing, prior to eating any bread with a meal, and done without a blessing, after touching a tamei (ritually impure) object (such as one's private parts, leather shoes, or an animal[citation needed] or insect, or after paying a visit to a cemetery).
3.Mayim acharonim ("After-waters") a law or custom of ritually washing off one's fingers after a meal, to protect oneself from touching the eyes with hazardous residue.[3]
4.During a Passover Seder, a third washing of netilat yadayim[4] is performed without any blessing being recited, before the eating of a vegetable, called karpas, prior to the main meal.
5.After visiting the bathroom, the ritual washing of one's hands as a symbol of both bodily cleanliness and of removing human impurity - see Netilat yadayim above.
6.Every Kohen present has his hands ritually washed in synagogue by the Levi'im (Levites) before uttering the Priestly Blessing in front of the congregation.
7.To remove tuma ("impurity") after cutting one's hair or nails
8.To remove tumat met ("impurity from death") after participating in a funeral procession, or entering a cemetery, or coming within four cubits of a corpse
9.Some communities observe a requirement for washing one's body (which may be done with tap water) after experiencing a seminal emission, including ejaculation or receiving seminal fluid during sexual intercourse since these activities make the man baal keri (one who is impure due to ejaculation.)
(Wikipedia)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: jtp56 on November 14, 2011, 08:41:14 PM
This is an excellent thread.  If I may share my own opinion (much of it not based on scripture, but my own understanding of it).  The Old Testament is written about men without the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised would come as our helper after His ascension.  To Compare the Old Testament to the New Testament is not possible because of this Truth. 

To understand the difference, especially the discussion about those who have not heard the gospel, but by just being good are "saved" or "get into heaven" based on Romans Chapter 1 (why isn't that good enough?), or why would God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his only son, and why that doesn't happen today, or why would a God even do that, etc, etc, etc.

You need to read Hebrews Chapter 11, called the Faith Chapter.  Faith has not been discussed here much but it is important.  God did not command Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham was tempted (Huge difference).  When your tempted, do you have a choice?  Did Eve have a choice? Abraham had received the promise of his seed coming through Isaac before he left to sacrifice Isaac, and responded to Isaac when Isaac started to get nervous: "God will provide" the sacrifice.

Getting back to Hebrews 11 (read for yourself please, Italics mine):

"By Faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command..........

 4 By faith Abel......

 5 By faith Enoch...

 7 By faith Noah......

 8 By faith Abraham...........

 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth............How do you make this up????

 17 By faith Abraham..........

 20 By faith Isaac.............

 21 By faith Jacob.............

 22 By faith Joseph............

 23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months.............

 24 By faith Moses........

 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger.............

 29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea..............

 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell...........

 31 By faith the prostitute Rahab............

 32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, etc. etc. etc.

You only talk about the people in the Old Testament who suffered on account of their sin, who had to cook their food over dung (coming to America soon), never about those who had faith.

It is by faith you are saved through grace, not of yourselves......

Therefore I claim, those who have not heard the gospel, but by observing the obvious around them (Gods creation [Romans 1]) by faith.............not of works, lest any man shall boast.  They may not be as "intelligent" as you, but they believe.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on November 15, 2011, 04:07:53 AM
J, refrain from preaching.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: screwtape on November 15, 2011, 08:35:38 AM
jtp56

what does your post have to do with this thread?  As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with either the OP or the current conversation.  As far as I can tell, it is just preaching.  Please stop doing that.

thanks.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Traveler on November 15, 2011, 08:41:47 AM
When they preach I scroll down. Blah blah blah is all I hear.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 15, 2011, 10:00:00 AM
This is an excellent thread.  If I may share my own opinion (much of it not based on scripture, but my own understanding of it).  The Old Testament is written about men without the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised would come as our helper after His ascension.  To Compare the Old Testament to the New Testament is not possible because of this Truth.
Gee, JC didn’t’ think that they were to be ignored so much as jtp indicates. Indeed, JC quotes them and lauds them. I guess this is the gospel of jtp, and we should ignore everything else. :D  The good old HS always is invoked by Christians who want to claim that they and they alone know that God “really” meant, and funny how this HS can’t get its message straight. 
Quote
To understand the difference, especially the discussion about those who have not heard the gospel, but by just being good are "saved" or "get into heaven" based on Romans Chapter 1 (why isn't that good enough?), or why would God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his only son, and why that doesn't happen today, or why would a God even do that, etc, etc, etc.. 

You need to read Hebrews Chapter 11, called the Faith Chapter.  Faith has not been discussed here much but it is important.  God did not command Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham was tempted (Huge difference).  When your tempted, do you have a choice?  Did Eve have a choice? Abraham had received the promise of his seed coming through Isaac before he left to sacrifice Isaac, and responded to Isaac when Isaac started to get nervous: "God will provide" the sacrifice.
and more OneTrueChristian nonsense

Quote
Getting back to Hebrews 11 (read for yourself please, Italics mine):

"By Faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command..........

 4 By faith Abel...... 5 By faith Enoch...  7 By faith Noah...... 8 By faith Abraham...........
 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth............How do you make this up????
Jtp, you are so inept here.  Let’s see, we have Noah getting the flood he was promised.  We have Abraham chatting directly with God.  We have Cain and Abel also talking directly with God. All we know about Enock is that he “walked with God” for 300 years and evidently got taken directly to heaven (oh and that apocryphal book). Again and again, we have supposedly direct interaction with god, no faith needed.  And Isaac and Jacob, and Moses, etc.  All the same.  You seem to be so stupid to think that no one can show how your claims are wrong.  And it’s great fun to do so.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 15, 2011, 04:36:15 PM
1. never start a post with the words, I feel . I believe. or I highly doubt.

If you are looking to express an opinion and not claim fact, how else would you presume to do it?

   and I agree with you that now everyone, more than likely knows what evaporation is.

All educated people know what it is.  People who are not educated probably don't. 

And yes there are many places that does not have enough water. However we are not talking about now. We are talking about then, and I do not have the correct knowledge of what places had plenty of rain fall and what places did not back in the time  or times the Bible was written.

So you are saying that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written?  Oook?

I can see where you could discover new information and then go back into a text that has already been written an make the new information seem to fit the old text.
That may have very well been done. However, it to, would be understandable to see how some of the early writings could be taken for knowledge beyond their time.

It is only understandable if you first give in to the notion that God is real.  If you don't, then no, it's not understandable to make that claim.  You see, if there were something in the bible that was irrefutable evidence that they knew things that couldn't possibly be known at that time, then we would be at a loss to argue against it.  It wouldn't be debatable.  We would be forced to toss up our hands and claim you were right.  And there are plenty of ways the biblical authors could have done that.  From saying bacteria caused diseases, to the earth revolves around the sun, to lightning is from hot and cold air patterns... any of that would have been acceptable.  What we get, however, is nothing of the sort. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 16, 2011, 12:24:10 AM
As for stating an opinion, you are correct. As for educated people knowing about evaporation and uneducated people not knowing about it. OK , that I too agree with. Now , where would you put the level of education of the normal people at the time or times the Bible was first written? Would you consider them educated on uneducated? (comparing them to our standards of education)

 I did not say that that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written. I said as plain as possible that I did not have the knowledge to know what the rain fall was like at that time. By your very question, it shows that you misread the statement and so, was confused. As for taking new knowledge and making it match to old text. Why would God need to exist  or not exist. Nostradamus wrote text about knowledge of the future. Or are you once again confused.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 16, 2011, 09:15:47 AM
As for stating an opinion, you are correct. As for educated people knowing about evaporation and uneducated people not knowing about it. OK , that I too agree with. Now , where would you put the level of education of the normal people at the time or times the Bible was first written? Would you consider them educated on uneducated? (comparing them to our standards of education)

 I did not say that that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written. I said as plain as possible that I did not have the knowledge to know what the rain fall was like at that time. By your very question, it shows that you misread the statement and so, was confused. As for taking new knowledge and making it match to old text. Why would God need to exist  or not exist. Nostradamus wrote text about knowledge of the future. Or are you once again confused.

Riley, the writings of Nostradamus’ are no more prophecies than the bible has advanced knowledge of science. They are the same in that humans assign meaning to them *after* they think something “fits”.  Why are neither of these, Nostradamus, or the Bible, clear and easy to understand? Why is there always a question one what is “really” meant and why can’t we actually use prophecy to avoid the supposed events claimed to be written about?

For example, Nostradamus wrote:

Quote
Bestes farouches de faim fluves tranner:
Plus part du camp encontre Hister sera,
En caige de fer le grand fera treisner,
Quand Rin enfant Germain observera.
[Nostradamus, Les Propheties, first printing 1555][1]
or, in English:
Beasts wild with hunger shall cross the rivers:
Most of the fighting shall be close by the Hister [Danube],
It shall result in the great one being dragged in an iron cage,
While the German shall be watching over the infant Rhine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hister)

I’d suggest reading the article.  Now many people will claim this to be about Adolf Hitler.  It’s like saying the word “real” means the same as the word “reel”.  It’s not true and it’s purely fantasy.  We also have claims of such nonsense as the “Bible Code” which suposedly predicts all sorts of things including the tragedy of 9/11.  A “prophecy” is useless if no one knows about it or can figure it out until *after* the event happened.  I can make Moby Dick sound like prophecy, if I have an event that already happened to match it to. 

The writers of the bible were uneducated, to our and even their time period.  They made claims that are simply nonsense to us and to the educated from the time.  The parts of the bible that theists claim are references to modern science made by these ignorant men are only that because they have decided that that’s what they “really” mean, with no evidence.  They ignore how wrong the bible authors are constantly, having to dig for even the most vague terms to try to convert to modern science and then declaring “look, here it is, God really meant the world to believed as a sphere” or “God really meant to tell them that the stars were balls of fusion and not things that could fall to earth”, ignoring that there are just as many verses that contradict these claims and many many verses that simply are ridiculous.  You seem to want to have it both ways, ignorant men magically writing about modern science, but also too stupid to know that a bat wasn’t a bird.  Thesist seem to want to claim that their god just puts in his two cents when you find it convenient, but then discount this god’s evident ignorance or absence when it happens.. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 16, 2011, 12:44:23 PM
velkyn:  The simply fact that they were uneducated is the very point that I am trying to make.  Now please understand that I am in no way try to state that the bible is and was 100% true. All I am trying to do is to understand how, (and by your own words, and I agree with it) uneducated men , even by their own time standards, would write down the things like , the earth being hung over nothing. How could they know. ,, also : Paths of the sea" Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He was bed-ridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents.(whoever atheismforum) even simply things like;  The Bible stated that the stars cannot be counted: For centuries, scientists and astronomers thought they could count the precise number of stars in the universe. Brahe, for example, said there were 777. Kepler claimed the total was 1,005. Hipparchus said there were 1,022 stars. Ptolemy raised the number to 1,056. Eventually, scientists, including the great Galileo, concluded that the stars could not be numbered, and of all things :The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health: In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded:

"Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).

all I am doing to questioning the POSSIBILITY that uneducated men may have  had something going on other than just lucking guesses.
 or is it possible that it is just coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence.
And again, At this point in time I still am not convinced that the bible is word for word true, but some things seem to be pointing to the fact that not all is wrong. As it is with most findings with most theories.


Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 16, 2011, 01:53:50 PM
velkyn:  The simply fact that they were uneducated is the very point that I am trying to make. 
I know, Riley.  You want to claim that they were uneducated and that it’s amazing that they could “know” modern science. The fact is that they simply didn’t. 

Quote
Now please understand that I am in no way try to state that the bible is and was 100% true.
that’s very good.  However, it has very little that is true e.g. factual, in it.  We have some thing that are simply obvious from observation.  We have some laws that are similar in many human societies, and a few mentions of places and people that are supported by external sources.  But other than that, it’s full of myths and claims that are simply wrong.

Quote
All I am trying to do is to understand how, (and by your own words, and I agree with it) uneducated men , even by their own time standards, would write down the things like , the earth being hung over nothing. How could they know.
They didn’t.  Theists are assuming that this means that these people knew, or god told them that the earth was in space.  It says nothing of the kind.

Quote
job 26: 7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.
We have the bible saying that the skies are something to be spread.  They aren’t.  We have this god somehow “suspending” the earth.  On what?  The earth hangs on nothing nor does it “hang” at all.  Now if we had this god saying that “the sun causes the earth to revolve around it causing the seasons because of the tilt of the earth closer to and further from the sun” that might be viable as something that the ancients didn’t and couldn’t know. But as it is, the bible is wrong in what it claims. 

Quote
also : Paths of the sea" Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He was bed-ridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents.(whoever atheismforum) even simply things like;
And that verse reads
Quote
Psalm 8: 6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;you put everything under their[g] feet: 7 all flocks and herds, and the animals of the wild, 8 the birds in the sky,  and the fish in the sea,  all that swim the paths of the seas.
This could simply be agrarians who think that fish follow the same paths their sheep do.  Fish also do not always follow ocean current.  Again, theists are putting meaning where is there is none, to come up with yet more desperately desired evidence for their god.   Sailors knew about warm and cold currents in the sea since time immemorial, without the bible in many cultures.  It’s nothing new and is just more human observation.   
Quote
The Bible stated that the stars cannot be counted: For centuries, scientists and astronomers thought they could count the precise number of stars in the universe. Brahe, for example, said there were 777. Kepler claimed the total was 1,005. Hipparchus said there were 1,022 stars. Ptolemy raised the number to 1,056. Eventually, scientists, including the great Galileo, concluded that the stars could not be numbered, and of all things :
And if we had enough time and good enough equipment, it’s likely we could count the stars, at least back to the time where the cosmic “fog” http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/12/8274038-how-the-cosmic-fog-cleared cleared.  Astronomers and cosmologists have been doing lots of work since Galileo. Nothing says he can’t be wrong.  Theists have always tried the “we can’t so Goddidit”, but science has always managed to show them wrong.  They’ve claimed the bible mentions atoms since we can’ t see them. Unforunately for them, we now can.  Same with stars, same with grains of sand on the beach.  Time is the big problem, to count such things, we’d probably be beyond the entropic death of the universe before we finished. 
Quote
The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health: In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded: "Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).
"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).
 
and that’s OBVIOUS.  No need for any divine revelation.
Quote
all I am doing to questioning the POSSIBILITY that uneducated men may have  had something going on other than just lucking guesses.
and you cherry pick those bits that you think work.  It doesn’t work so well if you consider the verses I mentioned is it?  IF this is a work occasionally divinely inspired, and that’s what I’m assuming you mean, how can one tell what is and what isn’t?  It wasn’t impossible for humans to know such things at the time http://core.ecu.edu/geology/woods/HISTOCEA.htm , and not impossible for them to write them down without using vague words that appear to convey anything but what they meant.  Why can’t this god do this?  The possibility of a god (assumed to be omnipotent and omniscient for now) doing anything is evidently low since we never see it.  That this god gives modern knowledge to ancients without being about to make itself clear would seem to be even less likely and have extraordinarily little point since nothing was done with this supposed knowledge.  If the ancients knew, then why did they burn people for telling the supposed truth from God, if they thought those verses meant the same things that modern theists desperate for evidence do? 
Quote
or is it possible that it is just coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence.
You’ve presented a false dichotomy. Not always concidence, a lot of hard work and observation.  To assume that humans are utterly inept is similar to the people who think any difficult building from anceitn times was because of “aliens”.  &)
Quote
And again, At this point in time I still am not convinced that the bible is word for word true, but some things seem to be pointing to the fact that not all is wrong. As it is with most findings with most theories.
  No, it’s not all wrong. some of it does have some basis in reality.  But the vast majority, and all of the important essential parts are baseless myth. 


I'd also ask you to answer the questions I've posed to you, rather than running back to who knows where for more "evidence".
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 16, 2011, 02:13:03 PM
OK. let me see if I can come up with some answers for the question you have ask me. It may take me a little bit as you seem to have a lot more knowledge that I on these subjects. I feel like I am unarmed here. ;) Give me a min. or two.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 16, 2011, 02:22:10 PM
no problem, Riley.  I told you, I'm hell on wheels when it comes to this forum  ;D
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 16, 2011, 02:26:46 PM
no problem, Riley.  I told you, I'm hell on wheels when it comes to this forum  ;D
You was not joking about that at all. ;)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 16, 2011, 06:28:26 PM
She were not.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 16, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
She were not.
Thank you, my grammar does need inproving. I will work on that. ;)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 16, 2011, 11:40:44 PM
As for stating an opinion, you are correct. As for educated people knowing about evaporation and uneducated people not knowing about it. OK , that I too agree with. Now , where would you put the level of education of the normal people at the time or times the Bible was first written? Would you consider them educated on uneducated? (comparing them to our standards of education)

Massively uneducated, but fully capable of understanding everything we know today.  Also fully capable of observing phenomena and forming logical conclusions based on their observations.   The problem they faced was the lack of available information (often due to poor technology) with which to better form those logical conclusions.   

I did not say that that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written. I said as plain as possible that I did not have the knowledge to know what the rain fall was like at that time. By your very question, it shows that you misread the statement and so, was confused.

I wasn't confused riley.  I understood what you wrote.  But you are allowed to use a bit of common sense here. 

I could say that I have no knowledge about elephants that lived 2000 years ago, but if someone asked me if they were capable of flying back then, I'm probably not going to throw up my hands and tell them that I don't have enough information to go on. 

In the absence of accurate rainfall data for every square inch of land during biblical times, what reasonable conclusions are you going to come to?  Is it more likely that there was abundant rainfall over every land mass in the world, or that rainfall was pretty much like it is today? 

As for taking new knowledge and making it match to old text. Why would God need to exist  or not exist. Nostradamus wrote text about knowledge of the future. Or are you once again confused.

God needed to exist for those people because they needed a way to explain everything in the world around them.  As we gained more knowledge about the world, we needed the God theory less and less, all the way to today where it explains nothing at all.  All humans would rather believe a bad, but easy answer to no answer at all.  That is why almost every culture in the world has had creation / god myths.  We have come far enough now where we don't need that anymore. 

As for Nostradamus... lol.  I'll give you another good piece of advice.  Stick to one book full of vague and unimpressive prophecies at a time.  You haven't finished with the bible yet.     
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 17, 2011, 08:52:16 AM
The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health: In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded:

"Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).

This is an excellent example of how poor an argument it is.  You are confusing the fact that we only recently discovered WHY laughter is good for us, with being able to observe the cause and effect interplay between the two.

Are you REALLY trying to suggest that - two thousand years ago - people were so muddle-headed that they honestly were unable to conclude that they felt better when they laughed?  So dense that they could take no comfort from kind words?  So oblivious that they were unable to conclude that being depressed and miserable could make you ill?

Of course not - they could see the glaringly obvious in front of their eyes, there is no need for any divine power whispering words into their ears as they slept.

Or perhaps that IS what you are saying?  That the people who wrote the Bible really WERE so thick and dunderheaded that they thought laughing was bad for you?  But if you really think THAT, why should we trust their opinions and observations of this "god" character, if they were so dense to the interplay of cause and effect in their daily lives?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: jaimehlers on November 17, 2011, 11:25:07 AM
It's easy, even today, to forget that laughter is beneficial.  How easy would it have been way back in the past to forget it, considering just how hard life was for all but the very richest people?  That, I think, is the reason for those proverbs, because it is easy to forget to laugh when being unhappy turns into a habit.  They had absolutely nothing to do with thinking laughter was bad for people; they were a reminder not to forget that it was good.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 18, 2011, 11:33:37 PM
Quote
As for Nostradamus... lol.  I'll give you another good piece of advice.  Stick to one book full of vague and unimpressive prophecies at a time.  You haven't finished with the bible yet.
   
You may have a point there. I guess one fairy tale at a time is enough.
I still believe in a God, However I am pretty sure that I could not prove he exists, but something in me just can't let go. No matter what my beliefs may or may not be, there is one thing I do know. I will not stop asking questions, I will not stop trying to learn, I will not throw science out and I will not throw out my God. I may question the Bible and my Pastor, but until God is proven not to exist , I will believe. But I will never believe in the Flying spaghetti monster.
Maybe one day science will be able to prove that there is a Creator. yea, yea, I know, I still buy lotto ticket to. ;D
I just know somebody out there is going to tell me I have a better chance of winning the lotto. Am I getting to know you guys or something. :?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Maxwell on November 19, 2011, 07:50:09 AM
It's easy, even today, to forget that laughter is beneficial.  How easy would it have been way back in the past to forget it, considering just how hard life was for all but the very richest people?  That, I think, is the reason for those proverbs, because it is easy to forget to laugh when being unhappy turns into a habit.  They had absolutely nothing to do with thinking laughter was bad for people; they were a reminder not to forget that it was good.

I know someone who does laughter therapy and it works well for them. Better to laugh, eh.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 19, 2011, 10:53:23 PM
I still believe in a God, However I am pretty sure that I could not prove he exists, but something in me just can't let go.

Hmmm. That seems pretty illogical.  That "something" that won't allow you to let it go is called "indoctrination". 

I may question the Bible and my Pastor, but until God is proven not to exist , I will believe. But I will never believe in the Flying spaghetti monster.

Let me ask you a couple things...  You say you would never believe in the FSM, but I'd like to know how you'd go about proving that the FSM isn't real.  What would the evidence that the FSM DOESN'T exist look like?  What would the evidence that your God DOESN'T exist look like?  In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would falsify the hypothesis that your God exists? 




Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 19, 2011, 11:42:07 PM
I still believe in a God, However I am pretty sure that I could not prove he exists, but something in me just can't let go.

Quote
Hmmm. That seems pretty illogical.  That "something" that won't allow you to let it go is called "indoctrination". 
I may question the Bible and my Pastor, but until God is proven not to exist , I will believe. But I will never believe in the Flying spaghetti monster.

Let me ask you a couple things...  You say you would never believe in the FSM, but I'd like to know how you'd go about proving that the FSM isn't real.  What would the evidence that the FSM DOESN'T exist look like?  What would the evidence that your God DOESN'T exist look like?  In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would falsify the hypothesis that your God exists?
"indoctrination" maybe , or maybe it is just faith. As for what evidence that God doesn't exist looks like,I am not sure, being that I am not trying to falsify the exists of God. What do you think it would look like?

To preach skepticism to us as a duty until sufficient evidence for religion to be found , is tantamount therefore to telling us, when in the presence of the religious hypothesis, that  to yield to our fear of its being an error is wiser and better than to yield to our hope that it may be true. Although our intellect and ability to think logically are powerful tools for understanding the world, they are not sufficient: We also need to make full use of the abilities of our passionate natures when attempting to make sense of and discover truth in areas like morality, religion, and human relationships.(William James,1902).

I guess what I am saying here is it makes a difference to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him. I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me. I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it. Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.
Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on November 19, 2011, 11:49:06 PM
Quote
"indoctrination" maybe , or maybe it is just faith.

Essentially the same thing as most believers are indoctrinated at a very young age into "having faith".

Quote
As for what evidence that God doesn't exist looks like,I am not sure, being that I am not trying to falsify the exists of God. What do you think it would look like?

If it is omnipotent, then, anything it wants to look like I guess? Jacob would know, he wrestled with God supposedly in the Bible.

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I guess what I am saying here is it makes a difference to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

Of course. I felt different in life without "Him", I feared life without "Him". But if I managed to overcome fear and uncertainty in life, then you can probably do more impressive things.


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I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me. I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

You CAN prove your spouse loves you. Did she cheat on you? No? That's a start.

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Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.

Please read this thread: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20666.0.html

A lot of us have been there.

Quote
Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

A direct healing of a human amputee's limbs. As in, actual regeneration or whatever fashion this god wants to make the limbs reappear for starters..
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 20, 2011, 12:18:19 AM
[quote? Jacob would know, he wrestled with God supposedly in the Bible.

Quote
Quote
Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

A direct healing of a human amputee's limbs. As in, actual regeneration or whatever fashion this god wants to make the limbs reappear for starters..
I will read the link you provided.
As for healing of a human amputee's limb. That would sure do it. But just between you , me and everybody that reads this. If I saw that in real life , that would freak me out.  What about you ? ;)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 20, 2011, 01:13:57 AM
indoctrination" maybe , or maybe it is just faith.

Do you find that believing in something without a good reason to do so is an effective way to distinguish fact from fiction? 

As for what evidence that God doesn't exist looks like,I am not sure, being that I am not trying to falsify the exists of God. What do you think it would look like?

I'm so glad you asked!

Alright, for starters, I would think that the bible would have at least one instance of error.  Given that there are so many, I believe that is evidence against the truth of the bible (and therefore the truth of God).  I would think that prayer would have no statistical benefit to the outcome of any situation (which is the case).  If God were not real, I would expect the world to behave in much the way it would without requiring the explanation of a supernatural entity (which it does).  If God were not real, I would expect that we would not be able to hear, see, taste, smell, or touch God in any meaningful way (which we obviously can't).  I would also think that any test that is attempted to prove that God is real would be met with failure (which is exactly what happens). I would expect that good and bad things would befall man as a direct result of choices and circumstances (which is exactly what happens).  I could do this all day man.  All day.   

To preach skepticism to us as a duty until sufficient evidence for religion to be found , is tantamount therefore to telling us, when in the presence of the religious hypothesis, that  to yield to our fear of its being an error is wiser and better than to yield to our hope that it may be true.

I'm not afraid of being wrong.  I just like and prefer the truth.  You can hope all you want, but in the end, what you hope for has no bearing on what is true or what is false.   

Although our intellect and ability to think logically are powerful tools for understanding the world, they are not sufficient: We also need to make full use of the abilities of our passionate natures when attempting to make sense of and discover truth in areas like morality, religion, and human relationships.(William James,1902).

I thought that might be a quote.  It didn't sound like you :)   

I'm all for using emotion (passionate nature) when it comes to morality and human relationships.  But as a truth telling device, it's horribly bad.  The evidence for this is the sheer number of religions that have been invented by man throughout history.  You can't get to the truth by going with your gut.  In fact, when it comes to discovering the truth, you need to leave your gut at home, because it's not reliable. 

I guess what I am saying here is it makes a difference to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

You've probably been led to believe this by people close to you for a long time, and to admit that these 'feelings' you have are nothing more than conjurations of your mind would be pretty embarrassing for you.  The secrets out, though.  All of that is in your head.  You don't feel God.  It's just you dude. 

I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me.

Really?  The SAME way?  Hold that thought...

I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

Aside from the fact that she says it, you mean?  Or the fact that she married you?  Or the fact that every night she comes home to you?  Those are pieces of evidence that let you know she loves you.  If she didn't do any of that, and treated you like a total stranger, do you really think you'd still 'know' she loved you?

But you are saying you 'just know it' as if none of those pieces of evidence are present and you are relying solely on this gut feeling inside you that she loves you.  No dude.  Evidence is evidence.  If she didn't give you evidence that she loved you anymore, your 'gut feeling' would change pretty fast.  But if you really want to push this thought, then please tell me what things are consistent between the methodology that God uses to express his love versus the way your wife expresses her love for you on a daily basis.  Does God show up all the time? Does God talk to you?  Does he tell you he loves you?  Does he really do it the SAME WAY as your wife and kids?  hardly....

Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.

I'm not sure what you are going for here.  Is that a shot at me?  Are you trying to say that just because I don't believe in God, I don't have any feelings?  Careful riley.  I haven't gotten snippy with you yet, but I'm not averse to going there.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. 

Feelings are great, but they are not good at telling the truth.  I know my wife loves me because she provides me evidence that she does.  If she didn't give me that evidence, eventually I would start to doubt the idea that she loves me.  Do you understand that?  You can say "I feel it in my bones" that she loves you, but that's just hokey crap.  You know she loves you because she gives you evidence that she does.   

Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

A verified, documented, rigorously scrutinized instance of an amputee regaining their limb intact with the words "The Christian God was here" on it.  That would be a real good start.  An error free bible, statistical significance to prayer, an instance where I could touch, hear, taste, smell and see God.  There's plenty of stuff that would work for me.  The fact is, however, if God were real, He would know exactly what I needed to have in order to believe in Him.  The fact that I don't have it, speaks volumes.  You believe you have it, but so do billions of other people who believe in very different religions than you.  What does that make you?  Either you're right and all those other billions of people are wrong (and seriously deluded into thinking their not), or ALL of you are wrong and the whole thing is in your head. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 20, 2011, 03:39:51 AM
I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me.

Really?  The SAME way?  Hold that thought...

I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

Aside from the fact that she says it, you mean?  Or the fact that she married you?  Or the fact that every night she comes home to you?  Those are pieces of evidence that let you know she loves you.  If she didn't do any of that, and treated you like a total stranger, do you really think you'd still 'know' she loved you?

But you are saying you 'just know it' as if none of those pieces of evidence are present and you are relying solely on this gut feeling inside you that she loves you.  No dude.  Evidence is evidence.  If she didn't give you evidence that she loved you anymore, your 'gut feeling' would change pretty fast. 

Riley, I'd like to expand on Jeff's point, by asking you to consider these three statements.

"My wife loves me"
"Angelina Jolie loves me"
"God loves me"

I have evidence for the first statement.  Like Jeff says, she comes home to me.  We cuddle.  We laugh together.  We share secrets.  She comforts me when I'm down.  She tells me and shows me she loves me, to the extent that I and others around us are in no doubt.

The second statement....nope, I have no "evidence", man.  But I KNOW it, deep down in my guts.  She's never let me know it, or tried to contact me, but that's not important - I know it, and that's all that matters.  If you just open your heart to the possibility, you'll SEE that she loves me.   You say she doesn't?  Prove it!  Show me one piece of "evidence" that she does NOT love me.  Until then, I know she does.

Would you like to discuss the third statement Riley?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: naemhni on November 20, 2011, 08:19:07 AM
Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

I don't know.

But if Yahweh exists and is omniscient, as is generally presupposed, then by definition he does know what would convince me, better than I ever could.  And if he is omnipotent, as is also generally presupposed, then whatever it is it would take to convince me, he is capable of giving it to me.  And if he is omnibenevolent, as is yet again generally presupposed, he should be taking -- or, indeed, already have taken -- whatever action is necessary for me to become a believer.

And yet, here I sit, still an atheist, actually becoming stronger in that stance every day.  There are a number of possible explanations for this.

1)  Yahweh does not know what would convince me he exists; i.e., he is not omniscient.

2)  Yahweh is not able to give me what would convince me he exists; i.e., he is not omnipotent.

3)  Yahweh either does not care whether I am convinced that he exists, or does not want me to believe that he exists; i.e., he is not omnibenevolent.

And then there's door number four, which is:  Yahweh does not exist.

I know which of these explanations makes the most sense to me.  Which one do you think is correct?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: screwtape on November 20, 2011, 08:31:35 AM
I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

No no.  You mean, you have a feeling and you attribute that feeling to "him".  That just means you have a feeling.  Until you can show there is a "him' and "he's" the one making you feel that way, you have not connected the dots.  Use your noggin, fella.

I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me.

That is not true and it is quite a disservice to your family.  You know[1] they love you because of how you observe them talk and act on a daily basis.  Their behavior is evidence of love for you.  It is consistent with how we define love.  Meanwhile, god is still elusive.  Invisible.  Silent.  Can't even pass the potatoes at dinner.  Nothing about our observations of god are consistent with how we define "existing".  You have a feeling of... contentment (?) and call it god.  Maybe that is not god at all.  Maybe it comes from mermaids.  Or vampires.  Or, most likely, you.

I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

No, you believe it based on your observation of her actions.  Not proof, but plenty of evidence.

Do you understand that feeling?

Of course.  My wife loves me too.

Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

Nothing.  God as typically defined cannot be measured.  That is by design.  Because there is no evidence for god, his PR people kept changing the definition to put him out of reach of scrutiny.  Too many smarty pants people like us shot holes in their meal ticket.  So they defined god as not even being a part of the time and space.

Also, god, as typically defined, is an impossible entity.   It is a circle with three sides.  An invisible blue toad.  A big shrimp. Patio chairs in the living room.  An omnipotent, omniscient, ombibenevolent, omnipresent being that exists outside space-time.  You cannot conceive these things.  They are impossibilities.

 1. Not "know".  Believe with a high degree of certainty
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 20, 2011, 11:27:45 AM
to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.

Quote
I'm not sure what you are going for here.  Is that a shot at me?  Are you trying to say that just because I don't believe in God, I don't have any feelings?  Careful riley.  I haven't gotten snippy with you yet, but I'm not averse to going there.
I may have in the past , like when I first started posting on here. but truth be known , when I first came to this site I had a small chip on my shoulder. But no , I am not taking a shot at you. And That is something that I have found does nothing to get at the truth. So if I offended you in anyway , please understand that it was not my intent.
 As for the rest of your post , I can see some of the points you are making and some of them I can ever agree with ,( kinda) I will give thought to this as I am also finding that if I don't think about things, they get messed up in my mind.
 Let me ask you something I just now heard on the t.v. 
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

Please understand that I truly can see and even understand you belief and the fact that you may think me a fool for my belief. It was not that long ago I believe the same as you. I just don't now. But I would never take a shot at you for your beliefs. unless it was done with humor. ;D
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 20, 2011, 11:31:54 AM
As for the rest of you guy, If I am ever on a debate team I want you guys on my side. I do feel like I know more now than I did before I found this site. may the learning continue on both sides. ;D
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: C on November 20, 2011, 11:33:52 AM
Quote
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

It depends. Are you a true Christian or not?

Just kidding!

Anyway, it will vary from individual to individual. Such as:

Person A will believe that God has answered his/her prayers and will be full of whatever emotions he/she asked for.
Person B will not get a "reaction" or "response" and will think that the silence of God is meaningful.
Person C will get neither reaction nor response and will think that God is just, well, an imaginary being.

Oh and please read this over: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html

You seem to have the troubles with the quoting.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Brakeman on November 20, 2011, 11:44:17 AM
Let me ask you something I just now heard on the t.v. 
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

Think about this Riley: If Christians are "really" born again with the holy spirit and that God dwells within them, shouldn't that make a definite statistically provable improvement in their lives? How could it not? With faith the size of a mustard seed, christians can supposedly move mountains, yet despite the holiest of wedding ceremonies they tend to get divorced a little more than atheists. How can that be? How can christians be over-representative of the prison population. How can a "Good" god have a bad effect?  How can Christian Pedophiles be statistically over represented?
Sure, you can claim that they aren't "True Christians", but you can't deny that they come from the same community and have the same claims as the "True Christians". Funny how none of it wore off on them.

Of course all of this makes perfect sense if there is no god. The Christian population is simply the group of people who won't take the responsibility of being good for themselves, and the representations then make perfect sense.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 20, 2011, 08:49:50 PM


Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?


Before you could provide evidence of a god you would first and foremost have to actually provide a workable definition for god. Which is where religions immediately fail because they can't even do that much.

As soon as you start trying to define something you also have to justify why you defined it what way. You also require a solid reason for each of the qualities that you attribute to it. Without a definition there is nothing to form a belief or opinion about, as well as no evidence that you can find to prove existence.

Where religious people get hung up is that the more specific the claims that you make the more you have to justify, the more flaws are going to crop up, and the easier it will be to refute. However the more vague the claims are, the less meaning they have in any practical terms. For example a lot of theists will try to say that god is non-physical, or that he exists outside of time and space. Aside from being unprovable this also means that this god they're proposing has no ability to interact with or exert influence over our world, nor can it be detected by any means. So the concept of god loses any meaning whatsoever because even if it did exist, it wouldn't matter.

So, in scientific terms, before you could even think about evidence of a god you would need to have some idea of what god you're trying to find evidence for.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 20, 2011, 09:22:42 PM
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #143 : Wow. I am not sure that defining God would be possible after reading your reply . You continue to bring up things that I have not given thought to, (I like that)  but for sake of argument.  I can not remember who said it; "God is one that nothing greater could be conceived".
and if anyone remembers who said this, would you please let me know. It may have been Descartes but I am not sure.
Would that work as a definition? 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 20, 2011, 09:32:30 PM
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #143 : Wow. I am not sure that defining God would be possible after reading your reply . You continue to bring up things that I have not given thought to, (I like that)  but for sake of argument.  I can not remember who said it; "God is one that nothing greater could be conceived".
and if anyone remembers who said this, would you please let me know. It may have been Descartes but I am not sure.
Would that work as a definition?

It's called the Ontological argument. A monk named Anselm of Canterbury came up with it.

It fails for a couple of reasons.

1)It assumes existence as a predicate. It assumes that just because humans can think of a perfect thing, then that perfect thing must exist. Which is untrue, of course. Our being able to conceive of a perfect being does not mean there is one.

2)It also assumes that we can know the nature of god. As I pointed out before this starts a whole other kettle of problems.

3)"greater could be achieved" is entirely subjective depending on the person doing the conceiving. God could not be the greatest by everyones standards because you would have obvious contradictions start cropping up. Perhaps one persons greater being hates Jews, but another persons greater being loves them, etc.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 20, 2011, 09:42:21 PM
There is just no way to make this easy.  ;) But it sure does get the mind going.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 20, 2011, 10:13:23 PM
As for the rest of your post , I can see some of the points you are making and some of them I can ever agree with ,( kinda) I will give thought to this as I am also finding that if I don't think about things, they get messed up in my mind.

If you can find the holes in my logic, please let me know where they are.  I'd be interested in what you find fault with. 

Let me ask you something I just now heard on the t.v. 
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

I don't think God does either one, because God doesn't exist.  In other words, no matter what I ask for from God, it will either happen or not happen based on what I do and the completely natural circumstances surrounding whatever I ask for.  It has nothing to do with any god. 

Could you prove either A. God zaps you with strong family feeling, or B. God literally gives you the opportunity to work for it?  Because if I have to work for it, then it is very possible that God had nothing to do with it.  You can say God gave you the opportunity, but that's a great way to excuse the fact that you have to do everything yourself (which is exactly how things would be if God wasn't real). 

Please understand that I truly can see and even understand you belief and the fact that you may think me a fool for my belief.

Well, I'm sorry but I can't return the favor.  I really can't.  Yes, I think your belief in God is completely foolish, though you seem to have a skeptical streak in you that may yet lead you out of the delusion you're in. 

It was not that long ago I believe the same as you. I just don't now.

Really?  You did?  You believed the same as me?  Then let me ask you what evidence were you presented with that changed your mind from where I am?  Because if it worked on you, then it should work on everyone, correct?  Including me. I will tell you right now that I am very interested in the truth.  If God is real, fine.  If God is not, fine.  I just want to know.  So please present the rock solid evidence that led you away from believing what I believe. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 20, 2011, 11:02:49 PM
I wish it was that simply. I was a bad boy. :-[ But rock solid evidence was not even in the mix. If it was, then I would not be questioning things now. I started my search of God last May. Well, maybe I was lead to him more than I started looking  for him.  It is a long story with a lot of curves, and as you can see I am still looking for the truth. But I will promise you if I ever find rock solid evidence I will bring it to you. Until then I hope you don't mind my asking you all about the evidence I do come into contact with, just so I may be able to see it with more than just my mind.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 21, 2011, 03:25:19 PM
I wish it was that simply. I was a bad boy. :-[ But rock solid evidence was not even in the mix. If it was, then I would not be questioning things now. I started my search of God last May. Well, maybe I was lead to him more than I started looking  for him.  It is a long story with a lot of curves, and as you can see I am still looking for the truth. But I will promise you if I ever find rock solid evidence I will bring it to you. Until then I hope you don't mind my asking you all about the evidence I do come into contact with, just so I may be able to see it with more than just my mind.

It seems that you were simply ready to settle down and you found nice people who happened to be Christians.   This will happen in the US (which I'm assuming you're from).  I can be quite reasonabley certain that you would have been "led" to Allah if you lived in a majority Muslim country.   It's easy to assume a cause but it's just as easy to get that cause wrong. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 03:35:49 PM
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 21, 2011, 03:42:59 PM
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

Not really. Modern religions, after a great deal of exposure to each other...and the fact that the big three have Abrahmic roots. But you compare say Aztec sense of Morality to say Norse Morality...thats the difference between cheese and water.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 03:46:21 PM
 Thank you , I did not know that. I will do some reading on it. Again thank you for your input.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 21, 2011, 03:52:55 PM
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

yes, Allah means "God" but do you believe in that version of "God" like the Muslims do?  For all intents and purposes, it a different god and a different religion.  A lot of religions have similar laws, becuase that's how humans work and like hatter said, we've been crosspollinating for a  long time.   

All religions say that all other gods are evil, imaginary etc and thus they all contradict each other.  If all religons are based on one "god", why is this god so utterly stupid, or evil, to allow humans to kill each other over what is a lie, if your hypothesis is true? 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: pingnak on November 21, 2011, 04:10:58 PM
But by this description (and I do agree with it), we have lots of 'Jesuses' and lots of 'Gods', too.  After all, the sacred WORD OF GOD that people absolutely trust with their very souls (and coincidentally, do outrageous things because of) comes out different every time, according to who's speaking their god's 'absolute, perfect truth'.

You'd think they could get a consistent message out of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-omnient being who would not only know the 'all important' message was corrupted to literally billions of permutations, but have the power to get the RIGHT message out to its believers.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 04:14:11 PM
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

Religions borrow very heavily from each other so it's only natural that there are similarities. Take Zoroastrianism for example, it's probably the most influential religion in history and pretty much the oldest that's still around. Much of the big three religious faiths can be traced back there. The book of Revelations is almost a direct copy of the end times prophecies of the Zoroastrian faith. Just with a change of names.

If you've ever looked at the god in the OT and NT and noticed how different they are, it's because of the change in influences. The Jews who wrote the OT had a vision of god as being a primal force, a sort of manifestation of everything that exists. That's why he can be both good and evil, kind and cruel, etc. all on a whim. Because he's capable of everything, as he is everything.

In between the two books however, the Jews started to become friends with the Persians, and overtime some of the Persian beliefs (They were Zoroastrians) began to filter into the Jewish ones. The Persians believed that there was one universal and transcendant god (Ahura Mazda) who embodied all of the goodness from whom no evil can originate (sound familiar?). He also had his lesser opposite, Angra Mainyu who seeks to corrupt and destroy the creations of god (again, sound familiar).

So by the time you get to the NT you see that god has suddenly become a being of love and compassion, who can't bear the presence of sin, etc. While Satan has suddenly become an evil entity that for some reason the bible never bothers to explain wants to corrupt all of gods creations.

This applies to concepts such as the soul as well, and many other aspects.

My point is, religions copy one another with as much shame and hesitation as the Borg Collective. Don't be surprised that the beliefs get similiar after a while.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 04:32:46 PM
Alzael: I have never heard it that way before. I guess after years of religion some of them are going to copy some of the customs. It would be so much easier for all of us if God would just do something to prove without a doubt that He is God.

For if God does not exist it would of course be impossible to prove it, and if he does exist it wold be a folly to attempt it. Why would it be a folly? Because proof involves reasoning and our reasoning powers are limited when it comes to the metaphysical. The best that we can do is acknowledge these limits and recognize that beyond the powers of reason lies the Unknown.(Seren Kierkegaard,1848)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 04:36:47 PM
I guess it is just possible that we will never be able to prove or disprove but just thinking about it opens up all kinds of things.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 21, 2011, 04:46:40 PM
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

You are right--Allah does mean "god" in Arabic, just like Dios means "god" in Spanish. Allah does not mean "the Muslim god" anymore than Dios means the "Catholic god". If you were a Christian Arab in Lebanon, you would still refer to god as Allah, even though you would be thinking about the Christian god.  However, since Islam developed in Arabic speaking areas, the language of the religion is Arabic, like the language of the Catholic faith is traditionally Latin.

There are a lot of similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam: all are monotheistic, all originated in the Middle East, all share same basic Old Testament stories (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc.), same prophets including Abraham and Moses on up to Jesus. Where they diverge is the "who's yer daddy" question--who is the last prophet, the last person to speak for god?  For Christians it was Jesus, for Muslims it was Muhammed. The Jews are still waiting for theirs.

Jews and Muslims share more cultural similarities, in my opinion, because both rely more on the old testament laws and everyday practices. Like not eating pork or shellfish, rocking while reading the sacred text, covering the head of women and men. Even Arabic and Hebrew are similar languages.

Christianity has been so filtered through Europe and adopted so many old pagan practices from the people there, that it is pretty different from the other two. Christmas and Easter, the major Christian holidays, are totally from the european pagan winter solstice[1] and spring fertility festivals[2]. None of that would have made sense in the Middle East where the seasons are not the same. The more you learn about the history of your religion, the less it seems to come from any god.
 1. bringing back the sun by setting fire to an evergreen tree in late December has what to do with Jesus? Uhhhh, nothing? 
 2. eggs and baby bunnies and flowers and sweets and newborn lambs are not about fertility and sex, nooooo! Jesus said to color eggs and eat chocolate bunnies in remembrance of him....
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 05:00:23 PM
For if God does not exist it would of course be impossible to prove it, and if he does exist it wold be a folly to attempt it. Why would it be a folly? Because proof involves reasoning and our reasoning powers are limited when it comes to the metaphysical. The best that we can do is acknowledge these limits and recognize that beyond the powers of reason lies the Unknown.(Seren Kierkegaard,1848)

Actually he's wrong. It's not that our reasoning powers are limited when it comes to the metaphysical. It's that the metaphysical sidesteps reason (at least as Kierkegaard uses the term).

Supernatural, metaphysical, etc. are words that we use when we can't undrstand something but want to assign some meaning to it to make us feel better. They don't really mean anything though. It goes back what I said previously about defining god, calling something metaphysical is a vague claim that puts it outside of observable reality. Thus you've immediately moved it completely outside of the abilities of reason, and also rendered it rather meaningless.

Again, this is using Kierkegaard's meaning where metaphysical is equivalent to supernatural. Not metaphysics as in the philosophic discipline.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 05:06:34 PM
you see, I would have never thought of it like that, ;D
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 05:07:44 PM
I believe that my religion came from God. However , just like most of the things White men seem to do is take things and make them ours. Like stealing xmas ect. and making it the way we want it . We took the land in this country , we are like a virus, we get some where and just spread out infecting everything we touch. I so wish it was not that way , but who am I ? Just a white boy looking for a God that would make things better for the people that he says he loves, one that can't understand why everybody knows that the world is going to hell( and I don't mean that the biblical way) and people still treat one another like shit. No wonder a lot of people says God doesn't exist. Talk about faith.
 Sorry I will get off of my soap box now. :(
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 05:16:42 PM
Do you think that people that are getting older start wondering about God because they are getting closer to death. I mean when I was younger I don't remember worrying if God was watching or not. Maybe after all of my searching I am just play Pascal's bet. I hope not , that would be sad. And it would be hard to respect myself. You all sure got me thinking. I will give you that. Almost to much for a country boy.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: wright on November 21, 2011, 07:24:31 PM
Do you think that people that are getting older start wondering about God because they are getting closer to death. I mean when I was younger I don't remember worrying if God was watching or not. Maybe after all of my searching I am just play Pascal's bet. I hope not , that would be sad. And it would be hard to respect myself.

An interesting idea, riley. You could probably find some people for whom that was true, but I'd be wary of generalizing. And while I don't know for sure without doing some research, I'd suspect that post-middle-age converts would be relatively rare. If they weren't, organized religion would not be losing ground in societies like the US.

Quote
You all sure got me thinking. I will give you that. Almost to much for a country boy.

That was probably tongue in cheek, but don't sell yourself short even so. I have known some awfully shrewd country boys and girls. Your ability to admit you might be mistaken in your faith puts you light years ahead of a lot of theists.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 21, 2011, 07:55:51 PM
Just a white boy looking for a God that would make things better for the people that he says he loves, one that can't understand why everybody knows that the world is going to hell( and I don't mean that the biblical way) and people still treat one another like shit.

This is just a perception problem, riley.  The world isn't going to hell, and the vast, VAST majority of people don't treat each other like shit.  It just seems that way because the media feeds us that (because it sells better).  People, for the most part, are really good to each other.  Just think about your immediate circle.  Who among the people you hang out with is bad?  I wager very few of them.  Same for me.  Same for most everyone.  Yes, some people are bad, but on a planet with 7 billion of us, of course you're going to get that. 

The world is a great place.  If we could only get rid of a few more things that make us hate each other (religion being the number one in my book), it would be an even greater place.  We have the power to do that.  It just takes a lot more rational thought. 

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 08:13:23 PM
ust a white boy looking for a God that would make things better for the people that he says he loves, one that can't understand why everybody knows that the world is going to hell( and I don't mean that the biblical way) and people still treat one another like shit. No wonder a lot of people says God doesn't exist. Talk about faith.


Dude.......really?

Consider the world now. Then take ten minutes and consider what the world was like 500 years ago. Then consider what the world was like 400 years ago.....then 300.....then 200....then 100.....then 50...... then come back to the present day.

Consider how people lived. The wars, the ignorance, the racism, the sexism, the disease, the rampant poverty, the barbarism. Hell in the Us black people were still being lynched as far back as the fifties.

Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?




Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 08:47:34 PM
I can see the point that you are making, and maybe in some ways the world has got better. And yes the news does seem to focus on the worst of the world.
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11. We lived in a large town at the time. I have an 11 year old. Let me tell you , at dark she is in the house , even during the day she is not going to the store or walking to school, or going swimming without and adult with her. So in some ways , yea the world is getting alot worst.
As you say, the people I know are good people but who would hang around bad people?(except other bad people) My ex wife and I moved to a small town so we could raise our children without them having to go through metal detector at school. So yea, I guess that I do think that the world is going stupid. I am scared for my children, what are they going to do. Maybe the world will wake up and see how screwed up things are and fix it. I just don't think that people's intelligences are keeping up with technology

I pray that I am wrong. ;D (come on that is funny)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 21, 2011, 08:59:31 PM
Al:
Quote
Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?
Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism.

Ecological break-down.

Oil production has probably peaked already.

Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears.


As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 09:04:42 PM
Al:
Quote
Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?
Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism.

Ecological break-down.

Oil production has probably peaked already.

Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears.


As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.

And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how? Not to mention that half of those are problems that can still be avoided.

Please spare me the maudlin gloom and doom. You're being absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 09:14:54 PM
Al:
Quote
Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?
Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism.

Ecological break-down.

Oil production has probably peaked already.

Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears.


As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.

And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how? Not to mention that half of those are problems that can still be avoided.

Please spare me the maudlin gloom and doom. You're being absolutely ridiculous.
I hope you right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: jtp56 on November 21, 2011, 09:18:45 PM
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

Religions borrow very heavily from each other so it's only natural that there are similarities. Take Zoroastrianism for example, it's probably the most influential religion in history and pretty much the oldest that's still around. Much of the big three religious faiths can be traced back there. The book of Revelations is almost a direct copy of the end times prophecies of the Zoroastrian faith. Just with a change of names.

If you've ever looked at the god in the OT and NT and noticed how different they are, it's because of the change in influences. The Jews who wrote the OT had a vision of god as being a primal force, a sort of manifestation of everything that exists. That's why he can be both good and evil, kind and cruel, etc. all on a whim. Because he's capable of everything, as he is everything.

In between the two books however, the Jews started to become friends with the Persians, and overtime some of the Persian beliefs (They were Zoroastrians) began to filter into the Jewish ones. The Persians believed that there was one universal and transcendant god (Ahura Mazda) who embodied all of the goodness from whom no evil can originate (sound familiar?). He also had his lesser opposite, Angra Mainyu who seeks to corrupt and destroy the creations of god (again, sound familiar).

So by the time you get to the NT you see that god has suddenly become a being of love and compassion, who can't bear the presence of sin, etc. While Satan has suddenly become an evil entity that for some reason the bible never bothers to explain wants to corrupt all of gods creations.

This applies to concepts such as the soul as well, and many other aspects.

My point is, religions copy one another with as much shame and hesitation as the Borg Collective. Don't be surprised that the beliefs get similiar after a while.


For crying out loud.  Religion, religion.  I don't know what to say?  Your understanding of the Bible is sooo off where do I start?  Ask me one question you are truly struggling with.  Are you even interested in Spiritual or Biblical things?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 09:21:30 PM

For crying out loud.  Religion, religion.  I don't know what to say?  Your understanding of the Bible is sooo off where do I start?  Ask me one question you are truly struggling with.  Are you even interested in Spiritual or Biblical things?

Yes. It's so much easier to say that than to actually refute what was said.

Be my guest. Provide your evidence that what I said was wrong. You don't have it, of course, but feel free to go ahead and do so.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 09:25:09 PM
I hope you right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads

Riley, speaking as a perpetual pessimist and cynic, you're being absurd. Everyone always thinks the times they live are the worst time with the worst problems. Just as everyone always perceives their childhoods as being a better, more innocent time.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 09:41:17 PM
I hope you right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads

Riley, speaking as a perpetual pessimist and cynic, you're being absurd. Everyone always thinks the times they live are the worst time with the worst problems. Just as everyone always perceives their childhoods as being a better, more innocent time.
I do remember my parents saying things like that when I was a kid. And as I have said. I hope you are right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads.
Is it possible that people perceives their childhoods as being better because they were better?
What would make you think that times are better now than, let us said 30 years ago?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 21, 2011, 09:54:19 PM
I can see the point that you are making, and maybe in some ways the world has got better. And yes the news does seem to focus on the worst of the world.
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11. We lived in a large town at the time. I have an 11 year old. Let me tell you , at dark she is in the house , even during the day she is not going to the store or walking to school, or going swimming without and adult with her. So in some ways , yea the world is getting alot worst.

Maybe you're just paranoid :)  The reason you're nervous about letting your daughter outside probably has a lot to do with the fact that you've seen child abductions on the news.  Guess what? There were childhood abductions back in the day as well.  You just didn't see them on the news as much.  We've become paranoid as a society because of the sheer volume of bad stuff we are fed by the media.  You have to take it with a grain of salt.  I can see how you wouldn't think so, but your child would likely be just as fine as you were. 

I just don't think that people's intelligences are keeping up with technology.

Who's fault is that?  Can it be fixed?  What would we need to do to fix it?  Do you really think reliance on an ancient, outdated superstition is the way to go, or could we focus on the education of our children and on our future more as a whole? 

I pray that I am wrong. ;D (come on that is funny)

Coming from you, yes, I can take that as funny.  :)   You're one of the few theists we currently have that even remotely uses your brain.  Keep doing it. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 21, 2011, 10:09:32 PM
 ;D I still believe in God. But when I read what you put down."Do you really think reliance on an ancient, outdated superstition is the way to go, or could we focus on the education of our children and on our future more as a whole"?  I started laughing so hard, that it put tears in my eyes. I got the point but it really hit me as funny.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 10:19:36 PM
Is it possible that people perceives their childhoods as being better because they were better?

You're kidding right? People perceive their lives as being better when they were younger because they were kids. When was the last time you saw a kid worrying about a gas crisis? Or the stock exchange? Or racial relations?

Look I was born in the beginning of the eighties. I remember things being all happy and cool as well. I can remember playing outside at night with my friends, staying up all day with my Nintendo. Making popcorn every saturday morning before my grandfather got up to make me pancakes for breakfast.

You know what I don't remember as a kid?

The worldwide economic debt crises.

The beginnings of widespread famine in Ethiopia.

The civil unrest and chaos in the middle east including the Iran-Iraq War, the ongoing Soviet-Afghan War, the 1982 Lebanon War, the Bombing of Libya in 1986, and the First Intifada in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

The Cold War.

The invasion of Grenada.

Tianamen Square.

Mount St. Helens

The US Drought.

The Bhopal Disaster

Chernobyl

The Exxon-Valdez spill

John Lennons assassination

The beginning of the AIDs pandemic

I could go on, but I think I made the point.

Let's see, you said you were 40-something before right? So that would make you born in about the sixties then?

Ok, the sixties.

The Cold War

Vietnam

The Bay of Pigs

The Nigerian Civil War

The Cuban Missile Crisis

JFK assassination

Malcolm X assassination

Martin Luther King assassinated

Black racism

Lynchings

The Great Chilean Earthquake (most powerful ever recorded)

Hurricane Camille (worst ever recorded)

During this period in America the violent crime rate nearly doubled from what it had previously been

Riots

The Manson murders

Again, I could go on.

Keep in mind that I have been mainly focusing on the bad things about these periods. I could also go into a long list of good things that happened during these decades as well.

However my point is, things weren't nearly as simple back then as you think you remember them to be. Ask your own child in nine more years how much he/she remembers about his/her childhood and you'll see what I mean.

What would make you think that times are better now than, let us said 30 years ago?

Well for one thing look at racial and social tolerance. Granted it's not perfect yet, but compared to what it was the difference is frankly amazing. I realize you said that you're white, but I'm black and trust me, there's been quite a difference in the course of my lifetime. Especially in regards to when I've travelled to/lived in America (I'm Canadian so race has been a relatively minor problem for most of my time that I've lived at home).

Not just racism but other groups such as gays have also made improvements, as well as womens rights.

We've taken much greater steps towards dealing with issues like poverty and world hunger. Not even just in the world but in our own countries as well.

We've made huge leaps in medical advancements to treat the sick, provided technology to replace limbs for amputees (something even god has failed to do). Our standard of living has increased, and so has our concern for other humans. We show far more concern and tolerance for other people who were different from us than we ever did back in the 80's, 70's, 60's. Religion is in decline.

Like I said, I'm a pessimist and a cynic, but here's the thing. While I am the first to admit that the human race is a massive collection of dicks and fuck-ups..........we never stop trying. Humans as a species never stop trying to make something good of our species; even if we occasionally can't figure out how. I think that it's that quality, if anything else, that makes us infinitely superior to any god.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: zerwwgha on November 21, 2011, 10:32:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ)

All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible. Yet Christians persist to believe, through good times and, to the dismay of Atheists, bad times. A Christian might experience a terrible tragedy and through it all, continue to pray and seek God. Praising God. And an Atheist just stares and wonders why. As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God. Why? What's behind the phenomenon of this amazing and, albeit, miraculous power of Jesus Christ that even baffles the most intelligent super minds in the world.

When I was an Atheist I realized that I felt somehow, the world was quite limited in it's scope. All there was to do was to get an education, a job, a wife and live. No frills, no thrills. It almost seemed as if it were life in a hamster wheel. The thoughts of having a life less ordinary began to cross my mind. As the ordinary seemed strongly unappealing.

I believed the life of a Christian was the epitome of ordinary. So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.

I went to Church one sunday and was saved. The elation I felt could only be described as spiritual. I began to search the scriptures deeply. For a long time I lived my life in the fashion of a thrill seeker. That feeling I felt was a very thrilling experience and I guess for that one feeling is the reason why I kept searching God. Yet, for several months he was silent and not speaking to me. I began to wonder why there was just one time when God "spoke" to me and then never again.

I realized that there was no growth occurring in the Church that I was in at the time. I then tried attending one of the more popular churches (a church  membership in the 400's) and I was nervous. I never have been so close to so many strangers in my life. I wanted to just walk out of the Church. And I did. I stayed away for a long time. Nearly three years. I believed it was because they weren't being nice to me for a reason. Maybe they were biased to me for the kind of person I was. I felt rejected.

So I stayed away and as time went by, I kept thinking about the reality of God. How just one time he revealed himself to me and then never again. I began to search through the scriptures again, trying to obtain a private relationship with God. This was a step in the right direction. Yet I need a church that I could call my own. I then went back to that one Church.

When I returned, my point of view was to be strong "on the inside", not to cower at the sight of so many strangers, but try to maintain self-respect and keep myself from caving in. Still, after I church, I left it feeling the same way I felt three years prior. Rejected because no one even noticed me. Yet, I didn't let that deter me. I decided that I was going to keep returning to that Church, perhaps just take a seat in the back but I would keep returning.

Because of this attitude however, I was greeted on my third visit from the pastor of the Church, and a couple other members of the Church. I felt I learned a lesson - not in politics or how to deal with people but in faith. This was one major step in my faith to being a Christian. First is learning to be strong in God. Second is to be strong around other Christians - essentially going to Church regularly confirms you are a Christian in the eyes of other believers. Lastly, you have to prove you have faith.

I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards. Much like myself. I'm sorry to be honest here. This is the love I have to give. Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself. To know what it means to be a Christian you have to live it all the way. Go all the way. Give it a year. After all, if it is eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life?

"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.

1) This would defeat the purpose of God's plan of salvation through faith. 2) This would make God the permanent servant of man (whatever ails you, just bring it to God and he'll fix it). 3) The purpose of Heaven and Hell is trivialized as God makes Earth his Heaven.

That's not God's plan, however. A sympathist might say, "Everyone should be free, regardless of the cost they pay." Yet, it's just a complaint against God's will and plan. The saying goes, "God looks at man's plans and laughs." And who is man to raise complaints against God who is all powerful and all knowing? If I were the author of this website, I would take it down. I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here. That's why as an Atheist, I didn't want to take the risk of their not being a God. I wanted to be absolutely sure before I started a crusade. A year is not long at all considering most people live for 80 on average. After all, there are a billion Christians in the world (all the sects combined, another billion for all of the catholics in the world). And I would urge every Atheist who comes here to receive edification to do the same, for it's better to spend just 1 year as a Christian than to spend all eternity in the bowels of hell for blaspheming God with your words alone. And every Christian you made fun of too.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 10:38:01 PM

*snipped for brevity*


zerwwgha, my use of green indicates that I am speaking to you as a mod.

This is a discussion forum, not a soapbox. Preaching is against the rules that you agreed to when you signed onto this forum.

If you have anything to say that is germaine to the current discussion, please feel free to contribute. Otherwise, please don't.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Historicity on November 21, 2011, 11:49:23 PM
All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible.
I think we're on track there.

Quote
So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.
I went to Church one sunday and was saved. The elation I felt could only be described as spiritual.
I began to search the scriptures deeply. For a long time I lived my life in the fashion of a thrill seeker.
Yes, when someone is an ex-atheist I've noticed a frequent pattern that they almost always convert for emotional reasons.  I once read the testimony of a guy who worked hard until he saw American Indian spirits.  His American Indian girlfriend was going to dump him otherwise.  So then he believed. 

Quote
I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards.
Please explain.

Quote
Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself.
Still waiting for an explanation.  Yes, I know something about the KJV.  And the Illiad and the Odyssey.  I like the Illiad better than the Old Testament.  The author of the Illiad has doubts about war and genocide and shows the human face of the enemy.  There's none of that in the OT.

Quote
"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior.
That's a real *facepalm* of a non-sequitur.

Quote
1) This would defeat the purpose of God's plan of salvation through faith. 2) This would make God the permanent servant of man (whatever ails you, just bring it to God and he'll fix it). 3) The purpose of Heaven and Hell is trivialized as God makes Earth his Heaven.
As we've often pointed out, you are saying that the world looks exactly as it would if God didn't exist.

Quote
That's not God's plan, however. A sympathist might say, "Everyone should be free, regardless of the cost they pay." Yet, it's just a complaint against God's will and plan.
More non-sequitur.  BTW, neither my spell checker nor I have ever seen the word "sympathist" before nor can I figure it out from the context you give.

Quote
If I were the author of this website, I would take it down. I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here.
How about you endure being a Buddhist for a year? 

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As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God.
Or become a Moslem for a year?  All you have to do is guard your thoughts against the Koran being a pastiche and Mohammed a self serving phony.

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I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here.
Pascal's Wager.  I am not surprised you brought it up.  I'll let someone else explain its fallacies to you.

I think I can sum up here that Christianity is your drugless high. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 22, 2011, 08:40:25 AM


All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible. Yet Christians persist to believe, through good times and, to the dismay of Atheists, bad times. A Christian might experience a terrible tragedy and through it all, continue to pray and seek God. Praising God. And an Atheist just stares and wonders why. As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God. Why? What's behind the phenomenon of this amazing and, albeit, miraculous power of Jesus Christ that even baffles the most intelligent super minds in the world.

Stop. First of "all too often"???? What you mean too often for people who are comfortable in their delusion, such as yourself, to be pointed out how silly their delusion is.  BTW, the power to self delude doesn't really baffle at all. People are weak, want to think they are special, that their morality is objective morality, and don't like to face up to the fact that they will die.  Not baffling at all.



When I was an Atheist I realized that I felt somehow, the world was quite limited in it's scope. All there was to do was to get an education, a job, a wife and live. No frills, no thrills. It almost seemed as if it were life in a hamster wheel. The thoughts of having a life less ordinary began to cross my mind. As the ordinary seemed strongly unappealing.

I believed the life of a Christian was the epitome of ordinary. So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.

I notice that evidence, logic, and reason are conspicuously absent in this tale. It is just one big emotional plea. You wanted something more...and poof you suddenly have an invisible intangible buddy....wow pardon me if that isn't remotely convincing.


 eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life

Pascal's Wager? See my sig on my opinion on that subject


"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.


Yeah I could see suffering be lessened in the world. But this is an excuse for the invisible. So if being invisible is SOOOOO important, why do the miracle show up time and time in the Bible? And just like all other Holy Text, these miracle just stop happening when people can fact check...but they still show up in remote corners of the world just exactly where there are no measuring or recording instruments. You truly are naive.


1 for it's better to spend just 1 year as a Christian than to spend all eternity in the bowels of hell for blaspheming God with your words alone. And every Christian you made fun of too.

Pascal's wager again. An Appeal to negative consequences...and you combined it with an appeal to pity.

Try my challenge, it doesn't require a year:


(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand dieties man
has worshipped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 22, 2011, 11:03:01 AM
All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible. Yet Christians persist to believe, through good times and, to the dismay of Atheists, bad times.
Not to my dismay, to my bemusement.  It also amuses me that yet one more Christian must resort to lies to support their claims.  Not nice at all. 
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A Christian might experience a terrible tragedy and through it all, continue to pray and seek God. Praising God.
yes and to what end?  Nothing changes with prayer or praise.
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And an Atheist just stares and wonders why.
No, not this one.  More again, more false witnessing from a Christian. 
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As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God. Why? What's behind the phenomenon of this amazing and, albeit, miraculous power of Jesus Christ that even baffles the most intelligent super minds in the world.
Nothing baffling about it since we see no evidence of any “miraculous power”, only lying Christians, which does make one wonder just how faithful they really are.
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When I was an Atheist I realized that I felt somehow, the world was quite limited in it's scope. All there was to do was to get an education, a job, a wife and live. No frills, no thrills. It almost seemed as if it were life in a hamster wheel. The thoughts of having a life less ordinary began to cross my mind. As the ordinary seemed strongly unappealing.
and I suspect a lie here too but perhaps you really were an atheist.  What evidence convinced you to convert?  I do see here where the usual desire of the Christian to be a special snowflake comes in. 
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I believed the life of a Christian was the epitome of ordinary. So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.
And the usual claim of how bad the supposed “atheist” was, of course with no proof. But golly, it does make a great story doesn’t it?  Unfortunately, it rings false.
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I went to Church one sunday and was saved. The elation I felt could only be described as spiritual. I began to search the scriptures deeply. For a long time I lived my life in the fashion of a thrill seeker. That feeling I felt was a very thrilling experience and Cut for length….
Lastly, you have to prove you have faith.
 
Huh, I was saved too.  And I read the bible too, as a believer and as not.  I prayed and prayed as I was losing my faith to this god and got nothing.  And funny again how we see just how special the Christian needs to feel.  It is amusing to see one more version of how one becomes a TrueChristian.  Seems like Christians just can’t seem to agree on that. 
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I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards. Much like myself. I'm sorry to be honest here. This is the love I have to give.
Nope, not love at all, just a cheap desperation to make your self feel better by calling people names.  Typical TrueChristian action, though. You might be a coward, but don’t call anyone else that unless you have evidence. 

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Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself. To know what it means to be a Christian you have to live it all the way. Go all the way. Give it a year. After all, if it is eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life?
and more pathetic TrueChristian assumptions meant to make the poster feel superior.  And dear, I gave it many many years.  But I’m sure you’ll just try to claim that I wasn’t doing it “right”.  Funny how all Christians say that and all of their methods fail.
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"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf. 1) This would defeat the purpose of God's plan of salvation through faith. 2) This would make God the permanent servant of man (whatever ails you, just bring it to God and he'll fix it). 3) The purpose of Heaven and Hell is trivialized as God makes Earth his Heaven. 
And here we have the claim by the TrueChristian that they know God’s Plan.  Again, we see how Christians can’t agree on much at all.  This one wants to claim predestination.  Hilarios that this TrueChristian forgets that his god did heal people supposedly back in the bible. Why didn’t that foul up this supposed salvation through faith?  Oooopsie, forgot that didn’t you?
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That's not God's plan, however. A sympathist might say, "Everyone should be free, regardless of the cost they pay." Yet, it's just a complaint against God's will and plan. The saying goes, "God looks at man's plans and laughs."
And funny how this god can’t negate man’s plans at all.  God was so scared of humanity and their tower in Babel that he had to make people speak different languages (forgetting that they already did in the chapter before this story) but now we can communicate with each other build amazing things and poor little God, can’t do a thing about it.
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And who is man to raise complaints against God who is all powerful and all knowing?
Yay, one more Christian who claims might equals right.
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If I were the author of this website, I would take it down. I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here. That's why as an Atheist, I didn't want to take the risk of their not being a God. I wanted to be absolutely sure before I started a crusade. A year is not long at all considering most people live for 80 on average. After all, there are a billion Christians in the world (all the sects combined, another billion for all of the catholics in the world). And I would urge every Atheist who comes here to receive edification to do the same, for it's better to spend just 1 year as a Christian than to spend all eternity in the bowels of hell for blaspheming God with your words alone. And every Christian you made fun of too.
and again more ridiculous claims.  So, your god is so ignorant that it would accept someone who just was believing in it on the odds that they might win Pascal’s wager? I wonder, can you turn your belief on an off again like a light?  Can you believe in fairies one day and not the next?  And just what does it mean to be a Christian for a year?  Obeying all of the laws of this god (way more than 10 incidentally)?  Living with other Christians sharing your possessions like in Acts?  You see, Zer, since none of you can get your story straight, why should anyone care what you think? It’s just more versions of more myths, all of which haveno evidence to show that they are real in anyway.

 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: screwtape on November 22, 2011, 01:14:49 PM
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11.

You still can.  The problem is 24 hour news channels have an unceasing need for "reportage".  So every lost kid - what used to be strictly local news - has been elevated to national news status.  Can you imagine Walter Cronkite reporting on that stupid JonBenet Ramsey?  It is not that the world has become more dangerous.  We are just barraged by hours of coverage of every far flung incident.  As a result, parents have become paranoid freaks.  I think a little danger does kids some good anyway.  It weeds out the stupidest ones and makes the smart ones a little more savvy.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 22, 2011, 03:18:59 PM
I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards.

What are we spineless cowardly atheists afraid of? I am not afraid of any supernatural beings. I am not afraid of hell. I am not even that afraid of dying. I am afraid of cockroaches because they are horrible--maybe that makes me a spineless coward. But at least cockroaches are real.

BTW
I, like many of the people here, already spent that year as a praying, practicing, believing Christian. Many years in fact. Somehow the miracle did not take. Either your god is not powerful enough to convince us, or he is not interested enough to bother saving us. Or maybe there is no god, which would explain everything.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 03:44:26 PM
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11.

You still can.  The problem is 24 hour news channels have an unceasing need for "reportage".  So every lost kid - what used to be strictly local news - has been elevated to national news status.  Can you imagine Walter Cronkite reporting on that stupid JonBenet Ramsey?  It is not that the world has become more dangerous.  We are just barraged by hours of coverage of every far flung incident.  As a result, parents have become paranoid freaks.  I think a little danger does kids some good anyway. It weeds out the stupidest ones and makes the smart ones a little more savvy.
you crack me up.  ;D
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 03:56:59 PM
Can someone please give me a responce to this statement. Thank you.
. If there is a God and if God is all powerful , all knowing, then one must contend that in creating man and placing him in an environment where falling was the likely outcome, then obviously God would have had to have man’s fall as a part of His plan.
still working on school paper. need another's thoughts
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: One Above All on November 22, 2011, 04:00:24 PM
<snip>

If the god of the Bible is assumed to be omnipotent and omniscient, then it is not good. There's just no way. It willingly caused suffering, even though using its omnipotence and omniscience, it could find another way to do whatever it wanted.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 22, 2011, 04:02:35 PM
Can someone please give me a responce to this statement. Thank you.
. If there is a God and if God is all powerful , all knowing, then one must contend that in creating man and placing him in an environment where falling was the likely outcome, then obviously God would have had to have man’s fall as a part of His plan.
still working on school paper. need another's thoughts

It would be accurate to say that falling was the only outcome. Also god could not have had a "plan" per se.

Omniscience rules out any possibility of free will. If it is possible for a being to be all-knowing then everything is predetermined and can happen in no other way.  So did not plan to put man there to fall. It was the only possible outcome.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 04:05:12 PM
<snip>

If the god of the Bible is assumed to be omnipotent and omniscient, then it is not good. There's just no way. It willingly caused suffering, even though using its omnipotence and omniscience, it could find another way to do whatever it wanted.
So, would you say that would be one of the reasons that you do not believe in a Creator? I am trying to get a quote for my paper and I really am trying not to be overly bias. So , you folks came to mind. Hope you are OK with this. :-\  ,
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: One Above All on November 22, 2011, 04:07:17 PM
So, would you say that would be one of the reasons that you do not believe in a Creator?

I do not discount the possibility of a creator, although I don't believe in one, but I discount the possibility of a god by my definition, simply because it's logically inconsistent with reality and itself.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 04:16:00 PM
That is an interesting thought. You concede to the fact of the possibility of a Creator. But you discount the possibility of a God by your definition. So is it safe to say that everyone has their own definition of God. (Believer and nonbelievers) and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible? Or am I missing the whole point? :?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 22, 2011, 04:21:58 PM
That is an interesting thought. You concede to the fact of the possibility of a Creator. But you discount the possibility of a God by your definition. So is it safe to say that everyone has their own definition of God. (Believer and nonbelievers) and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible? Or am I missing the whole point? :?

Believing in a creator and believing in the God of the bible are 2 VERY different things.  What Lucifer said is not a reason to disbelieve in a creator; it's a reason to disbelieve in the God of the bible.  And it's just one among hundreds of reasons. 

The difference is in the details.  The more specific you get with any god myth, the less and less likely it is to be true.  Why?  Because details can be analyzed, scrutinized, tested and verified.  The more vague the deity, the harder it is to get backed into a corner on the details.  A creator gives no details.  The God of the bible has characteristics that can be analyzed... and that's why it fails horribly.  Lucifer was correct in saying the God of the bible could not possibly be good if He is omniscient and omnipotent.  Not by any standard meaningful to us anyway.  There's too much awful stuff in the world. 



Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 04:28:10 PM
Thank you for your thoughts. I understand , at least more than I did. And that never hurts.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: One Above All on November 22, 2011, 04:28:28 PM
That is an interesting thought. You concede to the fact of the possibility of a Creator.

A creator. Notice the lowercase "C". It's called "grammar". Creator is not a proper noun, so unless it's the first word in a sentence, it's not capitalized.

But you discount the possibility of a God by your definition.

Of course. My definition is logically inconsistent; it's impossible for a being to have all those properties.

So is it safe to say that everyone has their own definition of God. (Believer and nonbelievers)

No. Ignostics don't care, so they might not even bother to define it.

and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible?

It most certainly is. Pantheists and deists have done it.

Or am I missing the whole point? :?

There was no point to my post other than expressing my own views. You'd have to ask hundreds or even thousands of people to be able to claim that you've "done your homework", so to speak.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Dante on November 22, 2011, 04:33:47 PM
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 04:38:37 PM
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
No I guess we really don't. What a scary thought(kinda)
 Lucifer; I think I am starting to get a better understanding of not believing.
thank you all for your input. I am off to class.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Dante on November 22, 2011, 04:42:25 PM
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
What a scary thought(kinda)
 

Why does that scare you so?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: One Above All on November 22, 2011, 04:45:58 PM
<snip>

OK, here's the short/long version:
I do not believe in any gods that belong to any religions and/or denominations of those religions because they are not worthy of worship. They are either evil or don't meet my qualifiers for a god.
I do not believe in a deist/pantheist god because there is simply no evidence and those types of "gods" aren't testable; therefore it is irrelevant to discuss them.
I do not believe in my definition of a god because it is logically inconsistent.

However, even if I am wrong about all that, a god worthy of worship (by my definition) will judge people based on their actions rather than their beliefs.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 22, 2011, 04:50:04 PM
and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible?


You can certainly put together a consistent definition of a god. But then you would have to prove that definition.

The problem is that theists want god to have all sorts of traits that don't mesh together. They can't prove god so everytime a question comes up that shows they're wrong they give god another additional trait to explain away why they can't find evidence for the first one. And so on and so forth.

For example they want a god that intercedes on behalf of humans. The problem with that we can't detect this being who intercedes.

So they say that god is outside of our reality to cover for this. However this means that it is impossible for him to intercede on our behalf.

You see where the problem comes in?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 22, 2011, 04:59:51 PM
What they all said. Plus this: if there is any such being as a creator god of the universe, it either has had nothing to do with the universe since, or for some reason wants it to seem as if it has had nothing to do with the universe since. Because that is what the evidence tells us. The universe operates exactly as if there was no interested creator god.

And if such a powerful being existed and it wanted something from us, it would be able to let us know in an unambiguous and foolproof way. It would not send one weirdo hippy to tell some incomprehensible stories to one group of gullible folks in one part of the world and hope that word got out somehow to everyone else.[1]
 1. Krishna. Buddha. Abraham. Moses. Jesus. Muhammed. Joseph Smith. Karl Marx. Mary Baker Eddy.  John Lennon. Louis Farrakhan. Yogi Bagwan Rajneesh. Uhhhh. None of the above.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 22, 2011, 05:05:31 PM
Alzael:
Quote
Riley, speaking as a perpetual pessimist and cynic, you're being absurd.

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Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism. Ecological break-down. Oil production has probably peaked already. Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears. As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.
And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how? Not to mention that half of those are problems that can still be avoided.

Please spare me the maudlin gloom and doom. You're being absolutely ridiculous.

Strange kind of pessimist you are, Alzael. Doom and gloom are our kind of thing, y'know?

But I'm not being ridiculous. What is ridiculous is the attitude of most North Americans towards the global problems which confront us, which is basically ostrich-like. Crisis, what crisis?

Unfortunately for the rest of us, this particular ostrich is the biggest, fattest, greediest and most powerful ostrich in the world. 

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And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how?
1. Because we've now grown so much that we're coming up against certain natural limits. 
2. Because we now have the power to screw things up globally.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 22, 2011, 05:14:38 PM

1. Because we've now grown so much that we're coming up against certain natural limits. 
2. Because we now have the power to screw things up globally.

So basically all you have is an expanding population and the fact that we have the power to possibly screw things up globally. And this outweighs all of the other progress that mankind has made over the years.

You're right. Clearly you're being entirely rational.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 22, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
You have to admit that the scope of global climate change pretty much swamps ( :o) most other human problems. That and the possibility of nuclear annihilation. And of course the zombie apocalypse. Just trying to cheer y'all up.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 22, 2011, 06:41:13 PM
Alzael:
Quote
Quote
1. Because we've now grown so much that we're coming up against certain natural limits. 
2. Because we now have the power to screw things up globally.
So basically all you have is an expanding population...
I wasn't referring only to population - fossil fuels and global warming involve natural limits as well.   

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...and the fact that we have the power to possibly screw things up globally
No. There's the additional fact that there is plenty of evidence that we are screwing things up globally.

So it's not a matter of possibly, but probably.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 07:27:42 PM
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
What a scary thought(kinda)
 

Why does that scare you so?
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 22, 2011, 07:49:18 PM
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
What a scary thought(kinda)
 

Why does that scare you so?
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Because that is the reality, babycakes. :D Life only has the meaning we give to it. Yes, we live, we die, we decompose. Never has been any different. That is why we need to cherish every day and try to live the best way we can. This is the real deal, as they say, not the dress rehearsal.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 22, 2011, 08:15:05 PM
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Here's what an internet friend of mine on another atheist site once wrote.

"Here's a way of approaching the universe: You are a tiny speck of insignificant biological material in an immense universe that probably defies your brain's ability of understanding. Yet you are remarkable, in innumerable ways. Every second of every day you are a walking ecosystem of life, housing trillions of microbes that continuously interact with you to keep both you and them alive. Your body is constantly building and rebuilding itself, encoding information on simple strains of molecules at the speed of jet engines, in each and every nucleus-possessing cell in your body. You are a walking, talking, living, breathing orchestra of life, a beautiful display of the potential inherent in our particular universe.

You are the remarkable product of an unbroken, let me say that again, UNBROKEN line of descendants stretching all the way back to the very first interactions of seemingly pointless inanimate molecules. You share a common ancestry with every living thing ever, including the estimated 106 billion humans who have ever lived. You are tied to the trees and the birds and the small phytoplankton that gently ride the crests and dips of the oceans of this world. You are part of the vibrant tapestry of what we refer to as life, a piece of art that stretches back billions upon billions of years. Everything this universe has thrown at you and your ancestors has been roundly defeated - from harsh radiation, to extraterrestrial objects, to volcanic eruptions and more. You are a symbol of utter perseverance, of the sheer will to continue onwards. You are a cry in the dark, the voice of one who will not be quiet.

So now you've realized that there is no inherent meaning to existence. So what? This doesn't mean life has suddenly lost meaning - it means there was no meaning in the first place. So you haven't actually lost anything. Instead, you have gained a wonderful opportunity. Give existence the meaning it is seeking. MAKE a purpose for yourself. Maybe it should be your kids, or maybe it should be giving from the bounty you have (because let us face reality - if you have an internet connection and personal computer, you are in the top 10%, maybe even the top 1%, of humanity). Maybe you should learn a new skill, explore a new facet of creation that you never realized was open to you.

So why do you teach a toddler how to behave? Because maybe that toddler will be the one to find other life, other existence in our so far lonely universe. Or maybe they will be the father, the mother, the close friend, the lover, the supporter of the one who does. Or maybe they will be the person to speak out at just the right moment, the one to stand up and stand out, who will provide the inspiration, or the moment of connection for the person who does. Or maybe that toddler will be the one to protect the life around us from an otherwise inevitable end, from the sucking void of empty existence that we struggle against every second of our being.

Are you just a breeder? Just biology? What an insult to biology! Just?!? I forgive you, because you know not what you say :D You are the product of a few basic particles, a few basic forces, yet you are impossibly complex, impossibly intricate. The sheer unlikeliness of your very existence is staggering, and yet here you are. The title of "breeder" is just a single facet of what you are. You can be a teacher, a leader, a thinker, a cook, a scientist, an artist, a musician, a protector, an enlightener, a champion, a peacemaker, a lover, a friend, a companion, a confidant... the list is a vast as the seemingly infinite complexities of neuron interactions in the collection of molecular structures known as cells in your brain.

And let us not end our poetic license there, for if all that is true, than this is also: There is something after death. The part of you that continues to exist in all life around you will never cease to be, not as long as things from this planet continue to live. You will continue on, interminably, from the beginning of life to its end potentially countless aeons from now, if ever. Maybe through some fluke you will be the Eve for humanity in the future, the one woman every human will trace their ancestry back to. Maybe not. But who can tell what the future holds. Rather than collapse under the imagined weight of nothingness, I posit that you should grasp hold of your life, and take it to heights heretofore unseen. Also - Hugs, love, and imaginary hot cocoa!"
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Traveler on November 22, 2011, 10:24:23 PM
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: wright on November 22, 2011, 10:30:46 PM
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Here's what an internet friend of mine on another atheist site once wrote.

<snip>


Alzael, that is wonderful. It's going in my little file of inspirational quotes.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 22, 2011, 10:40:07 PM
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

That's not the question you should be asking.  Regardless of how it makes you feel about the world... you have to ask yourself what do you value?  Do you value truth?  Or do you value what makes you feel better? 

It takes guts to accept reality for what it is.  Nobody said this was going to be easy.  Atheism may be the harder road, but as far as we know, it's the only one that leads you to the truth. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 22, 2011, 10:41:13 PM
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

That's because it isn't. I think it removes value. Compare something like the bible, to something like a astronamy or physics textbook. Which one of those books really has the awesome stuff inside?

The bible has plagues, and dragons, and killings, and giants, and water into wine, and parting the seas.

The textbooks has black holes, stars dying and being reborn, pieces of matter so small we can't even see them with our naked eye, the secrets of how to make things fly, knowledge of how the most basic principles of reality function.

And Christianity only has one (supposedly) awesome book.

Nothing religion has ever produced can even come close to being as awesome as science. Best of all, science is real.

Religion and religious people are so depressingly........small.

Alzael, that is wonderful. It's going in my little file of inspirational quotes.

No problem. I drag it out of hiding onto this forum once every now and then. It shows how wrong theists are when they think that logic and reason means you can't see beauty and the (metaphorically) spiritual aspects of existence.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 22, 2011, 10:41:20 PM
@Alzael

That was awesome.

I think perhaps you, or your friend, should share that lil' tid bit with Capt. Ryan Jean (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=20631.new;topicseen#new) Because he can't seem to find any meaning in his life and the Army is concerned that he might be suicidal.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 22, 2011, 11:49:57 PM
Riley can use that one as a quote.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 11:52:50 PM
I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?


Alzael, That was written with the heart of a poet. I truly enjoyed it. You friend had a very good hold on life. I only wish I had part of their outlook.  :)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 22, 2011, 11:55:07 PM
Riley can use that one as a quote.
I would love to use that in my paper and I will give credit where it is due. I turned in my rough draft today. Got a lot of things to change. Damn it. :laugh:
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Traveler on November 23, 2011, 12:09:42 AM
I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?


Alzael, That was written with the heart of a poet. I truly enjoyed it. You friend had a very good hold on life. I only wish I had part of their outlook.  :)

For me its because no one tries to change my life on the tooth fairy's behalf. Everyone acknowledges that it's a story, so there are no laws based upon it, there are no pushy people at my door about it, and I can live my life without worry about it. In the USA, and in many other countries, religious persons attempt to control the lives of others. Whether it's the obvious, like the attacks on 9/11, or the more subtle person knocking on my door with leaflets, or the law maker who attempts to infiltrate our laws with religious teachings and decisions, religion permeates our lives in ways that I sometimes/often disagree with.

If they'd leave everyone else alone, I'd completely shut up about it.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 23, 2011, 12:25:45 AM

To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it? =

It's very simple. Because I have to live in a world that is constantly being polluted by the lowest forms of ignorance. In the world that I live in there are people that actually believe that it is perfectly acceptable (even admirable) to adopt a system of thinking that allows them to make up reality as they go along. I have to deal with people who look at the world like frightened children and arrogantly try to make it fit into what they want it to be, rather than trying to come to grips with the truth like grown ups and understand our world for what it is, warts and all. And, to put it simply......no.

I refuse to accept that. You do not get to make up reality as you see fit just because it's not what you want it to be. The way the world is now we have everyone starting to come together and truly connect and accomplish things in a way that is unprecedented in the history of our world, perhaps even our universe. We are at a point when there is so much that we could potentially achieve and more than anything I would like to see it. I would actually like to see what these primitive, ten-fingered, monkey-son fuck-ups can really do when they give themselves the chance.

However we first have a few problems to overcome. The first is our own ignorance and stupidity and at the forefront of this religion. It's an abidcation of reason, it is literally the lowest form of possible thought because it relies on emotional manipulation, bullying, and faith to garner the respect that it can never hope to earn with reason, evidence, and honest discourse. Everything about it has been so obviously designed to posion and cheapen our experience here in life. To keep us worrying, fearful, to silence our will to learn and our creativity, to teach us to only think the way we're told and never question, that our lives are meaningless without it, and to celebrate sadism and death. It is nothing less than the utter destruction and debasement of everything that truly makes us human. Advertising some of the most atrocious ideas ever dreamed of by man while making us ashamed of things that we should be proud of, and proud of things that we should be ashamed of.

Everything that science and reason has given us can be seen just by looking around us. What good has ever come about through faith that could not have come about without it? Exactly my point, religion and faith are nothing. They are as insubstantial as a meringue, and it's that insubstantiality that makes it so incredibly dangerous. Because it can literally mean anything, can be used to advocate anything, and most importantly can never be given a reality check because a mind of faith assumes its own reality.

Think of this, if I were to tell you that saying some words in Latin over a potato chip would turn it into the body of Freddy Mercury, you would think I was nuts. However if I said the same about a crakcer and the body of Christ I would only be a Catholic. Is one actually less crazy than the other?

Religion allows people to believe by the millions what only a loan psychopath could believe on his own.

*whew* Ok, rant over. Just one last thing to say that sums it up.

"To regard a truth as ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. To regard ignorance as truth is the beginning of evil." -some guy I don't know.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: wright on November 23, 2011, 12:53:58 AM
I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?

I for one don't take offense or think you're being a smart ass, riley. You've shown to my satisfaction (for what that's worth to you) that you're struggling with very important issues honestly, genuinely considering that you might be wrong about what you believe.

And that in part is why I continue to listen and converse here: to reach others like you that are wondering just what atheism is and what it might come to mean for them. Not to lecture but inform, answering sincerely posed questions.

I'm also concerned about the repeated attempts, especially in recent years, to de-secularize my (the USA) society by a minority of religious believers and politicians. I see the secular foundations of the US as fundamental to its success and the well-being of its citizens. While a purely secular society would not be without problems, to instead embrace the sectarian religiosity that some Christians demand would lead to horrible abuses. I come to this site (among others) to keep myself informed on these topics, and discuss my concerns with like-minded people.

Lastly, I come here to learn: about framing convincing arguments, about religion and religious beliefs, among other things. Sure, in the process of all that I'm entertained, but that's just the icing on the cake, as they say.


Quote
Alzael, That was written with the heart of a poet. I truly enjoyed it. You friend had a very good hold on life. I only wish I had part of their outlook.  :)

Again, I think you sell yourself short, riley. You're a husband and a father, yes? If you love your family solely for who they are, it seems to me you do have at least part of that outlook ;)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 23, 2011, 04:17:27 AM
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment.

Believe me, I would FAR rather be able to treat Yahweh and Allah in the same way as the Tooth Fairy.  But ask yourself this...

Do believers in the Tooth Fairy use their beliefs to influence laws?  On, say, marriage?  Abortion?  Stem cell research?
Do believers in the Tooth Fairy insist on their beliefs being taught to the next generation as truth?
Do believers in the Tooth Fairy refuse to accept scientific discoveries and theories because "it doesn't fit with what I believe from the Bog Book of Tooth Fairies"?
Do believers in the Tooth Fairy use their beliefs to threaten or kill those with different beliefs?

Or are you REALLY saying that there is no meterial difference to the world between belief in your god, and belief in the Tooth Fairy?  Because if that IS what you believe, then why are YOU here to defend YOUR belief in your god?  Why don't YOU just shrug and say "it's not important".

Think about what your belief in your god means, about how it affects how you view the world and treat others, about how far you would go if you believed that your god wantd a particular thing done.  Then I think you'll understand why we feel that "belief" is such a dangerous thing.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 23, 2011, 06:22:51 AM
I asked a simply question about why the people of this site spends so much time denying God. After reading the replies I learned something, it was not that simply of a question. The answers I got back stunned me. I truly do not know how to reply to this. I was in bed and woke up thinking about this. The thoughts that you have on this are plain and insightful, I have not found one way to poke holes in your examples or your concerns about the affect that religion has on the world. The more questions I ask, the more I question my beliefs.  :-\ Thank you again for being honest to an old (sometimes foolish) country boy. As I have said before, folks like you are not what I expected to find on a site such as this. Much respect to you.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: naemhni on November 23, 2011, 07:50:11 AM
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

So, in other words, you find not-X to be such a terrible prospect that you desperately cling to X for no other reason than that you want it to be true?  That's a logical fallacy, although I'm not sure what its formal name is (or whether it has one)... where's Hatter23?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: One Above All on November 23, 2011, 07:55:20 AM
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

So, in other words, you find not-X to be such a terrible prospect that you desperately cling to X for no other reason than that you want it to be true?  That's a logical fallacy, although I'm not sure what its formal name is (or whether it has one)... where's Hatter23?

Maybe [wiki]Argumentum ad baculum[/wiki]?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Zankuu on November 23, 2011, 07:56:26 AM
Argumentum ad metum.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Dante on November 23, 2011, 08:05:27 AM
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Another of the members here has the following in his sig line:

"The truth doesn't give a shit about your feelings."

Harsh perhaps, but no less true.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: naemhni on November 23, 2011, 09:35:22 AM
Argumentum ad metum.

Ah, yes, that's it.  Thank you, sir!
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 23, 2011, 09:57:35 AM
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

I feel the same.  And with how some Chritians claim that it’s their god’s right to do with humanity as it pleases since it supposedly created us, that only makes being a simple creation even more worthless than some result of impersonal physics and chemisty.  I’d rather be that than some demented thing’s toy. 

As I’ve posted elsewhere, I had to euthanize my one cat this week. It was either months on a feeding tube which had a small chance of working or a gentle death. According to many theists and their strawman arguments about atheism,  I could have let him suffer in this universe and declare it didn’t matter since there was no magic sky fairy to praise or punish for doing so.  But I didn’t.  I was the part of the universe that cared to spare my kitty pain and bewilderment on why this was happening to him. That gives my life meaning. And I certainly don’t need some invisible impotent and evidently imaginary being to make me this way. 

I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .

And this believe in god harms people repeatedly.  Does the belief in the tooth fairy do this? 

Quote
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Let me ask you Riley, how do you “know for sure that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist”? 

And again, the harm that religion causes. 
Quote
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?
  I’ll have to tell you that I’m not offended but a little disappointed, Riley.  It’s the reason that I find that religion harms people.  You’ve seen the idiocy that Christians like BS, onesteward, etc have shown and that’s what I fight against, that pure willfully ignorance that is based on intentional lies.  I find that lies are rarely useful and almost always harmful (I do agree with lying if it will save a life, like in the case of the folks hiding the family of Ann Franke from the Nazis).
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Traveler on November 23, 2011, 10:16:14 AM
...As I’ve posted elsewhere, I had to euthanize my one cat this week. It was either months on a feeding tube which had a small chance of working or a gentle death. According to many theists and their strawman arguments about atheism,  I could have let it suffer in this universe and declare it didn’t matter since there was no magic sky fairy to praise or punish for doing so.  But I didn’t.  I was the part of the universe that cared to spare my kitty pain and bewilderment on why this was happening to him. That gives my life meaning. And I certainly don’t need some invisible impotent and evidently imaginary being to make me this way....

I'm so very sorry for your loss.

And this brings up a point that sometimes gets lost in the rhetoric about life and god's will and all that. Compassion and mercy. We show it to our animals, but when it comes to a human life we have to let god decide when to take it? Really? Even when the human is terminal and suffering and wants to die? Quality of life is important. Religion, at least conservative religions, teach us that life at any cost is more important than quality of life. I so completely disagree with this. And no, I'm not advocating that I or anyone else gets to make the decision for everyone. But as an example, Washington state now has a right to die law in place. If one is terminal, with less than 6 months to live, and suffering, you have the right to have assistance in ending your life. Religious folks would disagree with this, and insist that that person suffer for the rest of their life. I can tell you now, as someone who's fought a terrible battle with cancer. If I knew I was terminal, and had to suffer through the crap I went through with no hope for any decent quality of life, I'd have wanted to end it. And if religious persons stood in my way I'd be really, really pissed. I deserve the same consideration that Velkyn's cat does. I deserve the same consideration that I gave my beloved greyhound when he was suffering from osteosarcoma. I deserve quality of life.  Not just the right to breath in and out each day.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: jtk73 on November 23, 2011, 11:58:41 AM
I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards. Much like myself. I'm sorry to be honest here. This is the love I have to give. Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself. To know what it means to be a Christian you have to live it all the way. Go all the way. Give it a year. After all, if it is eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life?
Good! The christian police are here!! They can inform us who is and is not a TrueChristianTm!!! There are SO many competing opinions but obviously YOU are the authority!

Quote
"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.
Speak for yourself! I don't have sins. I behave like a HUMAN. Why should I be ashamed of that? Who deems certain behaviors as sins and why? Why would a super-powerful entity create lesser beings with the ability to do or conceive of things that offend the super-powerful entity? AND then condemn the lesser beings for those thoughts/activities? Why would a super-powerful entity be offended by anything? Is it so prude that it gets upset if I lust after a woman? If you think that a super-powerful entity (the christian/bible god) could not create lesser beings (humans) without the ability to do things that offend the powerful entity (god), then you are limiting your god's powers to the confines of your imagination. If you want to claim that your god wanted humans to have the ability but wanted them to not use it, then you are making your god petty and pathetic.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: BigV on November 23, 2011, 02:23:45 PM
When I was a Christian, I asked my parents and, of course, my pastor about heaven. Mostly about the people who would end up going to this paradise where there's good food, eternal music, playgrounds with angels ....
....


When I was a fundamentalist, I bought into the idea that Jesus revealed himself to whomever was honestly seeking him.

(just like he revealed himself to me by virtue of me being born into a Christian family and hearing about Jesus since the cradle.... ah.. never mind).

So, if you find a fundamentalist evangelical today, I think that's how they'd respond.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

This passage implies that salvation was possible for those who lived before Christ since they too probably saw Christ's day.

FYI, i'm not a fundamentalist now so I won't be defending this view if you have a question :-)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 23, 2011, 05:06:23 PM
I asked a simply question about why the people of this site spends so much time denying God. After reading the replies I learned something, it was not that simply of a question. The answers I got back stunned me. I truly do not know how to reply to this. I was in bed and woke up thinking about this. The thoughts that you have on this are plain and insightful, I have not found one way to poke holes in your examples or your concerns about the affect that religion has on the world. The more questions I ask, the more I question my beliefs.  :-\ Thank you again for being honest to an old (sometimes foolish) country boy. As I have said before, folks like you are not what I expected to find on a site such as this. Much respect to you.

You sound like a stand-up kinda guy, riley. And you know, rationally that there is no Tooth Fairy, Santa, Bigfoot, Batman, Cinderella. Because there is no evidence that any of those exist, right?

But suppose most of the people you meet told you that Santa (or any other fictional character) was real, celebrated Santa's birthday as a national holiday, had meetings every week where they praised Santa for creating the world and all good things in it, even went to war and killed in the name of Santa. You are surrounded by references to how great Santa is, there are Santa-based schools and even colleges, entire sections in bookstores and whole TV networks are devoted to him.

You begin to realize that only a few people, like you, understand that Santa is not real. There is still no evidence that he exists. But when you say that, people get angry. You get into arguments and lose friends over it and your relatives don't want to to come over because you won't pray to Santa before eating. The person you are dating has told you that if you refuse to go to the weekly Santa meetings you can forget about getting married. The kids would have to be raised believing heart and soul in Santa.

Now here is your big question: do you start to believe in Santa or not?

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 23, 2011, 08:29:18 PM
nogodsforme: Before I answer , how cute is the girl I am marrying and does Santa still give gifts if you don't believe? :laugh: 
I get your point and putting it that way, well it does sound foolish. But it is just not that easy. I guess it is for some , but for me, I just can not walk away from it now. I mean, I can't stop this feeling, Deep inside of me :laugh: :laugh:(Sorry , couldn't help myself, it is playing on the radio, A vain attempt at humor ):D
I do know that I have not lost any friends because of their belief or nonbelief in God. Any way not by my chose.I have found out that hanging around with people that hold different beliefs than myself is much more interesting and if I keep my mind open I may even learn a thing or two. And this site , well , it is interesting.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: wright on November 23, 2011, 09:48:32 PM

I do know that I have not lost any friends because of their belief or nonbelief in God. Any way not by my chose.I have found out that hanging around with people that hold different beliefs than myself is much more interesting and if I keep my mind open I may even learn a thing or two. And this site , well , it is interesting.

I'm glad to hear that you haven't seen your faith as more valuable than friendship, riley. And that you feel comfortable hanging out here.

Quote
Understand that friends come and go, but with a precious few you should hold on. The older you get, the more you need the people who knew you when you were young.
--Mary Schmich
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 23, 2011, 10:34:21 PM
Quote
I'm glad to hear that you haven't seen your faith as more valuable than friendship, riley. And that you feel comfortable hanging out here.
Well I didn't say that my faith was not more valuable then my friends. My friends know of my belief and accept the fact that I am a Christian that is not prefect but that tries to learn more about the belief I hold. Some of them think it is a foolish belief but no more foolish than Steve needing to wear his blue socks everytime we play golf. :D I am who I am. My friends are who they are. We kid each other about a lot of things the we believe in. The stupid 2 foot fake turtle Mike has in his back yard. But we are friends. How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different. My Dad told me that when I was 16 and it is one of the things that have stuck with me.
Quote
Understand that friends come and go, but with a precious few you should hold on. The older you get, the more you need the people who knew you when you were young.
--Mary Schmich
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: changeling on November 24, 2011, 06:22:06 AM
Hey Riley,
Your dad said " How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different. My Dad told me that when I was 16 and it is one of the things that have stuck with me."

Your dad was a pretty smart man.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 24, 2011, 08:39:40 AM
How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different.

I heartily agree.

How does your god deal with people who do not believe in him, Riley?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 24, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

Oh,I get it. It means your morality is the morality of the universe. There's universal justice and no suffering to help is in vain. Your memories and perception of the universe are unending...if you perceiving the universe does not end...the universe(as you know it) does not end.  It is a very pretty lie....but the pretty aspect does not change the lie aspect.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Traveler on November 24, 2011, 10:25:19 AM
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

Oh,I get it. It means your morality is the morality of the universe. There's universal justice and no suffering to help is in vain. Your memories and perception of the universe are unending...if you perceiving the universe does not end...the universe(as you know it) does not end.  It is a very pretty lie....but the pretty aspect does not change the lie aspect.

Er. I'm not understanding you. I don't believe we were created. I'm just trying to understand why christians think their view makes for more value. We have one life to live. Let's enjoy it, let's make the most of it, let's help each other and care for each other and do our best to live full lives where every moment counts. Because there's nothing afterwards but worm food. Which is ok. I won't know it. I'll be dead.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 24, 2011, 12:05:45 PM
How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different.

I heartily agree.

How does your god deal with people who do not believe in him, Riley?
He doesn't deal with them at all. But that is their chose not His. I know you don't believe and that is cool. And don't tell me I am preaching, you ask me I did not bring it up. You did. :laugh: Happy Thanksgiving .
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 24, 2011, 12:06:45 PM
Hey Riley,
Your dad said " How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different. My Dad told me that when I was 16 and it is one of the things that have stuck with me."

Your dad was a pretty smart man.
Thank you. I miss him a lot.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 24, 2011, 10:59:48 PM
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

Oh,I get it. It means your morality is the morality of the universe. There's universal justice and no suffering to help is in vain. Your memories and perception of the universe are unending...if you perceiving the universe does not end...the universe(as you know it) does not end.  It is a very pretty lie....but the pretty aspect does not change the lie aspect.

Er. I'm not understanding you. I don't believe we were created. I'm just trying to understand why christians think their view makes for more value. We have one life to live. Let's enjoy it, let's make the most of it, let's help each other and care for each other and do our best to live full lives where every moment counts. Because there's nothing afterwards but worm food. Which is ok. I won't know it. I'll be dead.

I am not saying I agree with the mentality, but at a gut, emotional level, provided one doesn't think it through...I get how thinking you are the darling creation of the king/creator of the Universe makes live seem more valuable.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 24, 2011, 11:08:12 PM
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

Oh,I get it. It means your morality is the morality of the universe. There's universal justice and no suffering to help is in vain. Your memories and perception of the universe are unending...if you perceiving the universe does not end...the universe(as you know it) does not end.  It is a very pretty lie....but the pretty aspect does not change the lie aspect.

Er. I'm not understanding you. I don't believe we were created. I'm just trying to understand why christians think their view makes for more value. We have one life to live. Let's enjoy it, let's make the most of it, let's help each other and care for each other and do our best to live full lives where every moment counts. Because there's nothing afterwards but worm food. Which is ok. I won't know it. I'll be dead.

I am not saying I agree with the mentality, but at a gut, emotional level, provided one doesn't think it through...I get how thinking you are the darling creation of the king/creator of the Universe makes live seem more valuable.
I am not sure if it is this life that is seen as more valuable, I think most are thinking about the after life . I know it is of no importance to a man that does not believe in the after life and why should it. But to one that believes , it is important
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 25, 2011, 04:50:26 AM
How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different.

I heartily agree.

How does your god deal with people who do not believe in him, Riley?
He doesn't deal with them at all. But that is their chose not His.

Did your god not set the rules?  Did your god not create hell?  THAT is my point. 

Your god COULD make it so that people who do not believe in him, or do not agree with his rules, do NOT suffer for all eternity....for "believing different" to him.  But he doesn't.  As a result of the way he set up the universe, people who "believe different" to him will suffer forever in the most horrific way imaginable.

So...."How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different."  Under those terms, can you "tell" your god is good?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 25, 2011, 10:04:28 AM
Traveler:
Quote
Quote
Oh,I get it. It means your morality is the morality of the universe. There's universal justice and no suffering to help is in vain. Your memories and perception of the universe are unending...if you perceiving the universe does not end...the universe(as you know it) does not end.  It is a very pretty lie....but the pretty aspect does not change the lie aspect.
Er. I'm not understanding you. I don't believe we were created.

I think that when Hatter used "you" in his post, he meant "someone/anyone", not you personally, Traveler.

I was confused by his post at first, as well.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Traveler on November 25, 2011, 10:13:47 AM
Traveler:
Quote
Quote
Oh,I get it. It means your morality is the morality of the universe. There's universal justice and no suffering to help is in vain. Your memories and perception of the universe are unending...if you perceiving the universe does not end...the universe(as you know it) does not end.  It is a very pretty lie....but the pretty aspect does not change the lie aspect.
Er. I'm not understanding you. I don't believe we were created.

I think that when Hatter used "you" in his post, he meant "someone/anyone", not you personally, Traveler.

I was confused by his post at first, as well.

Thanks, Gnu, I think I finally get it. For some reason I couldn't seem to parse that post at all. Now it makes sense.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Alzael on November 25, 2011, 11:01:49 AM


He doesn't deal with them at all. But that is their chose not His.

Not entirely. Consider the reason that most people disbelieve in god. Most people disbelieve as a result of the clear lack of evidence that any god exists. God could easily provide this evidence if he wanted to, in fact if the bible is true he used to do so everyday. If god did this we would have obvious evidence of his existence, and then people could still decide whether or not they want to follow him. It's just that they'd be making an informed decision instead of a blind one.

Instead this god deliberately hides himself so that people can't tell whether he exists or not, yet expects everyone to live by his set rules and believe in his existence. Even though they have no way of knowing if what he says is even true or good.

That's a very messed up idea of choice.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 26, 2011, 08:09:51 AM
Traveler:
Quote
Quote
Oh,I get it. It means your morality is the morality of the universe. There's universal justice and no suffering to help is in vain. Your memories and perception of the universe are unending...if you perceiving the universe does not end...the universe(as you know it) does not end.  It is a very pretty lie....but the pretty aspect does not change the lie aspect.
Er. I'm not understanding you. I don't believe we were created.

I think that when Hatter used "you" in his post, he meant "someone/anyone", not you personally, Traveler.

I was confused by his post at first, as well.

Thanks, Gnu, I think I finally get it. For some reason I couldn't seem to parse that post at all. Now it makes sense.

Now I get the confusion...sorry I tend to use the universal "You" a lot.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 28, 2011, 10:24:35 AM
He doesn't deal with them at all. But that is their chose not His. I know you don't believe and that is cool. And don't tell me I am preaching, you ask me I did not bring it up. You did. :laugh: Happy Thanksgiving .
well, that’s not quite true is it?  Your god damns people to eternal torture fir not believing in him, isn’t that correct?  And it’s not “their choice” if you believe what the bible says (Romans 9 for one example, JC talking about why he uses parables in the gospels for others).   Considering that your god treats perfectly fine people so badly, people whose only “sin” is not believing in this particular god (in my case by using the brain that this god supposedly gave me and refusing to provide any evidence like it supposedly gave so many others before, Thomas for one) is it okay that I’m damned to eternal torture by your god?  Are you okay with this?  Why or why not?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 28, 2011, 12:46:26 PM
How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different.

I heartily agree.

How does your god deal with people who do not believe in him, Riley?
He doesn't deal with them at all. But that is their chose not His.

Quote
Did your god not set the rules?  Did your god not create hell? 
  yes he set up rules. Yes God did create hell but hell was not created for humans.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41).



Quote
Your god COULD make it so that people who do not believe in him, or do not agree with his rules, do NOT suffer for all eternity....for "believing different" to him.  But he doesn't.  As a result of the way he set up the universe, people who "believe different" to him will suffer forever in the most horrific way imaginable
. I guess he could, but he didn't , One way to look at it is pick God, live with God, Pick Satan, live with Satan.

Quote
So...."How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different."  Under those terms, can you "tell" your god is good?
I don't think you understand. There is no way to look at it under those terms. Apples and Oranges. God is not a person.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: JeffPT on November 28, 2011, 01:36:10 PM
I don't think you understand. There is no way to look at it under those terms. Apples and Oranges. God is not a person.

You're right.  God is not a person.  He's not anything.  He's fake. 

But if you'd like to say that your fictional God can't be judged under human terms, what terms would you like to judge him by?  If you say we're comparing apples and oranges, tell us a comparison that would be apples to apples. 

Also, answer this for me... If you were judging God strictly on human terms, would you judge Him to be good? 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 28, 2011, 02:19:36 PM
Quote
You're right.  God is not a person.  He's not anything.  He's fake. 
in your opinion.
Quote
But if you'd like to say that your fictional God can't be judged under human terms, what terms would you like to judge him by?  If you say we're comparing apples and oranges, tell us a comparison that would be apples to apples. 
I would not even pertend to know what I could compare God to. So I don't know.
Quote
Also, answer this for me... If you were judging God strictly on human terms, would you judge Him to be good?
Strictly on human terms, no, I would have a problem with some of the things that the Bible tells us about him. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 28, 2011, 02:43:55 PM
Strictly on human terms, no, I would have a problem with some of the things that the Bible tells us about him. 
Now tell me, why would you hold a supposed higher being to LOWER moral standards than you would a fellow human? Should said being be....above those standards?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 28, 2011, 03:06:05 PM
Strictly on human terms, no, I would have a problem with some of the things that the Bible tells us about him. 
Now tell me, why would you hold a supposed higher being to LOWER moral standards than you would a fellow human? Should said being be....above those standards?
I agree, If I knew what the end result was , but I don't, So I can only hold humans to the moral standard that I have learned from humans. When I was a kid I had no ideal why I got in trouble for not brushing my teeth. At the time I could not have known the end result. I know you have heard this example before and will more than likely rip it up. But faith is just that , faith. I have faith that what He does it right. I wish I could give a stronger reason, but I am unable to.
I just put this in a personal message to someone and I feel that is kinda fits here also.


We think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God’s existence think faith is impossible for them. Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith. (I read this somewhere, not sure where) And believe me I have lots of doubt. But just because I do not understand something does not mean I should or would just stop searching.

Here is a quote that I have always liked,

To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.
(Sophy Burnham)


Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 28, 2011, 03:25:53 PM
Strictly on human terms, no, I would have a problem with some of the things that the Bible tells us about him. 
Now tell me, why would you hold a supposed higher being to LOWER moral standards than you would a fellow human? Should said being be....above those standards?
I agree, If I knew what the end result was , but I don't, So I can only hold humans to the moral standard that I have learned from humans. When I was a kid I had no ideal why I got in trouble for not brushing my teeth. At the time I could not have known the end result. I know you have heard this example before and will more than likely rip it up. But faith is just that , faith. I have faith that what He does it right. I wish I could give a stronger reason, but I am unable to.
I just put this in a personal message to someone and I feel that is kinda fits here also.


We think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God’s existence think faith is impossible for them. Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith. (I read this somewhere, not sure where) And believe me I have lots of doubt. But just because I do not understand something does not mean I should or would just stop searching.

Here is a quote that I have always liked,

To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.
(Sophy Burnham)


Why is credulity, and faith is just credulity by a warm and fuzzy name, a virtue? If you don't apply skepticism to tales of the fantastical, you will be duped and deluded. You see it in others all the time, they had faith the some charismatic cult leader would not lead them wrong.

Faith leads to stupid decisions.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 28, 2011, 03:38:09 PM
I can somewhat agree with that if people blindly follow what they have faith in. but by having some doubts they can keep in check what their true faith is. You are right that a lot of people have been fooled by someone taking one's faith and twisting it just a little to get them off  track. But that would work on any belief. I am not saying that I have all of the answers , Hell a lot of the Doubts I have, I have voiced here on this forum. And because of it I feel more informed then before I came here. Some things I thought I knew for sure, I have been shown that I had been misinformed . That is why searching is so very important, The problem comes when someone believes they have all of the answers and stops searching. Don't you agree?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: nogodsforme on November 28, 2011, 03:48:00 PM
Why is religion so heavily based on feelings? God belief makes people feel secure, blessed, loved, happy, important, special, connected to something higher. But feelings are misleading. You can't rely on feelings over knowledge and facts to give you an accurate fix on reality. Especially when the feelings are telling you the opposite of what the evidence tells you.

Common example: a scary movie makes us feel frightened, even though there is nothing really dangerous. Our brains have to override the feeling that there is a monster in front of us and we should run away!

Another example: you feel that someone loves you, but it is really a con man/woman out to steal your bank account. You have to use your brain to realize that someone is going through your financial info when you aren't home, and it can only be your sweet babboo!

A last example: a drug like cocaine makes you feel wonderful, but is actually destroying your body, brain and relationships. Your friends and family don't want you around anymore, esp. when you are feeling absolutely fantastic!
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 28, 2011, 03:49:08 PM
I can somewhat agree with that if people blindly follow what they have faith in. but by having some doubts they can keep in check what their true faith is. You are right that a lot of people have been fooled by someone taking one's faith and twisting it just a little to get them off  track. But that would work on any belief. I am not saying that I have all of the answers , Hell a lot of the Doubts I have, I have voiced here on this forum. And because of it I feel more informed then before I came here. Some things I thought I knew for sure, I have been shown that I had been misinformed . That is why searching is so very important, The problem comes when someone believes they have all of the answers and stops searching. Don't you agree?

There have been billions of people on this planet. There have been hundreds of thousands of things written. We cannot understand it all, it just isn't possible. We know some things that have been written are false, people lie hallucinate, exaggerate, mistranslate, etc.

So how do we separate the false from the true?

We look to our own eyes, our own senses, our own memories. We know that these too, can be faulty, but we start there. We see things that are true regardless of the observer, regardless of the culture, regardless of wether a person has faith, or no faith. We treat these things as true.

When someone makes a grandiose, fantastical, or magical claim, we treat it with skepticism. Simply put, if a claim falls outside of what we see and hear, what is repeated throughtout the ages without change in form....chances are it is in some way false. When it is explained in a manner that matches the truths, the things  we know, shows evidence, we can then accept that, yes, this thing that seemed fantastical at first, is true.

But not before, because making decisions based on falsehoods is just plain stupid.

I don't think I have all the answers, I just have a method of handling the information being thrown at me.

Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 28, 2011, 03:52:48 PM
You again are correct. The only thing we can not agree on at this time is what is and what is not falsehoods. Which is why I am searching.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 28, 2011, 03:58:17 PM
Riley,  I have a question, why do you think that this god of yours does anything “right”?  We can see repeatedly in the bible where it fails constantly.  All I can guess is that you ‘hope’ it gets something right, against all evidence, even from your supposed holy book that is the basis of your faith. 

People feel a lot of things that are wrong.   Other people feel the same and feel validated and that can start some horrible things.  I much prefer depending on evidence and fact and not my fallible brain’s feelings.  There are people who will never understand much of anything and to delude oneself into some idea that they are “intended” to understand is purely dangerous. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 28, 2011, 04:00:10 PM
You again are correct. The only thing we can not agree on at this time is what is and what is not falsehoods. Which is why I am searching.

Ok, do you search for the truth of the interference of the god Ares in the Tojan war?

Do you search for Baphomet?

Do you search how the universe in being carried on the back of a tortoise?

Do you search for the eternal Ba in the light of Osirus?

Do you search for love through the power of Erzuli?

Or do you just apply a different standard to these stories, as opposed to the ones you grew up with?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: riley2112 on November 28, 2011, 04:23:27 PM
once I feel I have this all thought out , you guys throw things at me that I can not deny or just blow off. I really need to give this some thought.  Let me think this out and see where my mind falls.  :-\
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: kardula on November 28, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
the way that it was taught to me when I was younger was that everyone will get a chance to see god when they die, at that point in time they can either accept him, or deny him and that will determine whether they got to heaven or hell. Not sure if there's any scripture references to this or not, it's just what the pastor taught us.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Hatter23 on November 28, 2011, 04:46:46 PM
once I feel I have this all thought out , you guys throw things at me that I can not deny or just blow off. I really need to give this some thought.  Let me think this out and see where my mind falls.  :-\

I know it sound like I'm being mean, but I too am searching. But I've long given up on the pie in the sky thing when every time, every single time, I arrive into a dead end.

I am searching now for a simple equation; how do I become a better human being without becoming a selfless idiot that is taken advantage of? Where is that balance of enjoying one's life and making the world just a little bit nicer?

And for one, I enjoy debunking. I enjoy logic puzzles and figuring out magic tricks. And If I get people to understand when wool is being pulled over their eyes, I am making all of humanity waste less time on arguing over who has the best imaginary friend and pondering how many angels can dance on a pin. Every lie I explode makes the truth just a little easier to find.

I may not be smart enough to be a great scientist. I may not have political power to change a law.
I may not have the money to be a great philanthropist.

But showing how logic works, and trying to treat people kindly...this, this I can do.


Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: kaziglu bey on November 28, 2011, 04:50:27 PM
once I feel I have this all thought out , you guys throw things at me that I can not deny or just blow off. I really need to give this some thought.  Let me think this out and see where my mind falls.  :-\

Riley, I have not commented much on this but have followed this debate with interest. I think you will find however that the other members here have proposed a lot of questions that are very difficult, if not impossible, to answer satisfactorily and still have a loving, just God. However, if one goes with the answer that God is not real, those questions suddenly make a lot more sense. I found myself questioning a lot of things, having been raised Catholic (run away!!). As I was getting older and able to understand more things about religion, there really just came a WTF! moment where I realized that it was all bunk. All of the questions I had about my faith, God, religion, and JC, made so much more sense when I considered the possibility that God is not real.

Now, it is easy to look back and think to myself that I was foolish for having been hoodwinked by such a silly bunch of stories and rituals. It is very much an indoctrination, and it is a difficult mindset to break, especially considering that you have had it drilled into you that if you do this, you will suffer.  It is liberating once you get there. It's like being unplugged from the Matrix, and being able to see and experience the real world, not some fairy tale one that you were brainwashed to believe.

Try this: Write a list of the questions you have about religion/God. Such as "Why does God allow so much suffering?" or "Why is God obsessed with foreskins?". Write down all the questions you have. Put "Because there is no God" as the answer to each one, and see if it makes more sense that way. I am guessing that you will see that it seems a much more plausible solution and explanation for the universe we live in.

Religion is set up so that doubt or questioning is considered heresy; doesn't that seem convenient?
Those who have not accepted Christ as their Savior may face Eternal (like, forever and stuff) Punishment. Isn't that also convenient for someone who wants to be able to subdue a population? "Follow us or face the consequence of eternal suffering! Have a blessed day!" It's the biggest and most successful scam of all time. Unfortunately the victims are all too willing.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 29, 2011, 09:44:12 AM
the way that it was taught to me when I was younger was that everyone will get a chance to see god when they die, at that point in time they can either accept him, or deny him and that will determine whether they got to heaven or hell. Not sure if there's any scripture references to this or not, it's just what the pastor taught us.
  As far as I know, no, there is no biblical support for this.  The closest thing seems to be in Revelation where it says that humans will be judged by their actions in life, and there are no do-overs or last minute conversions mentionsed.  This story from your pastor seems to be the usual attempts by Christians to make up a nicer god than they actually have in their supposed "holy" book.   
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Anfauglir on November 29, 2011, 10:09:35 AM
So...."How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different."  Under those terms, can you "tell" your god is good?
I don't think you understand. There is no way to look at it under those terms. Apples and Oranges. God is not a person.
[/quote]

As has been said, then if you can't use human terms to judge, then what can you use?  To just say "because I don't know the plan...." is a cop-out, frankly.  We "tell" whether a human is good or not on a daily basis, without ever knowing what their long-term plans are. 

Nor do I regard it as acceptable to claim that "I have faith in the ends", when the person telling you "trust me" does (as you've said) cause you problems: you are trusting them in spite of what they do, simply because they are telling you to do so.  Spin that any way you want, I can't see how that could be termed a virtue.  Frankly, one may as well decide to worship and follow Satan rather than Yahweh, if those are the criteria you will use.  Certainly, there is no reason one should be Christian, rather than Muslim or Hindu or Pagan or.......

If you are saying "well, but the Christian god seems the 'most right' to me", then I have some sympathy for that point of view.....but not a lot.  Given we are raised in a predominantly Christian society, I would be surprised if in general what we feel to be "right" was NOT broadly similar to that one-god-in-thousands.  But as Kaziglu says.....why decide to follow that one hypothetical god just because it is a "best fit"?  All the excuses and apologies fall by the wayside as soon as one realises that, actually, we don't have to choose the "best fit" at all.

We can simply realise that - like all the other tens of thousands of gods there are and have been - it is just a construct made by man, with no basis in reality.  And when you do THAT, it suddenly becomes so clear why (unless we personally make a god in our own image) it is so impossible to look at anyone else's god and agree that yes - they ARE completely good.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Brakeman on November 29, 2011, 09:00:23 PM
So...."How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different."  Under those terms, can you "tell" your god is good?
I don't think you understand. There is no way to look at it under those terms. Apples and Oranges. God is not a person.

As has been said, then if you can't use human terms to judge, then what can you use? 

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge, they were given the sense of Right and Wrong that was equal to God's sense of right and wrong. (read Genesis) You can compare..

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Explain that one Riley..
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: screwtape on November 30, 2011, 09:04:07 AM
riley,

your lack of quoting skills makes it difficult to understand your posts.  Please go here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,75.0.html) and read the quoting FAQ and then the Tutorial.  Please do it right away.  It will help you to be better understood.  Thanks.

Regards
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 30, 2011, 12:02:04 PM

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Really? Really? For real? Why.......do......you.....make the claim......that...um.....Uzziah was sent to Donte's Inferno, I means Hell?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: velkyn on November 30, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
I don't think it directly says that but if God is pissed enough to kill a man, you'd think he'd keep him out of heaven too.  ;)
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: rev45 on November 30, 2011, 12:56:07 PM
He had is own son/self killed and sent to hell supposedly too. 
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Brakeman on November 30, 2011, 06:55:16 PM

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Really? Really? For real? Why.......do......you.....make the claim......that...um.....Uzziah was sent to Donte's Inferno, I means Hell?
Simple.. because swirling someone off to heaven is a reward, NOT a punishment.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on November 30, 2011, 07:04:26 PM

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Really? Really? For real? Why.......do......you.....make the claim......that...um.....Uzziah was sent to Donte's Inferno, I means Hell?
Simple.. because swirling someone off to heaven is a reward, NOT a punishment.

Again, why only suppose a Heaven or Hell option when the text you refer to does no such thing.?
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Brakeman on December 01, 2011, 06:03:25 AM
Again, why only suppose a Heaven or Hell option when the text you refer to does no such thing.?
The whole slant of the conversation is from a typical fundy christian, heaven or hell, point of view. From My point of view, it's just pure stupidity.
Title: Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
Post by: Truth OT on December 01, 2011, 11:15:41 AM
Again, why only suppose a Heaven or Hell option when the text you refer to does no such thing.?
The whole slant of the conversation is from a typical fundy christian, heaven or hell, point of view.

My bad, I seriously hadn't considered this.

From My point of view, it's just pure stupidity.

I would agree and add that in the time of the specific case of Uzziah and the Chest of Proofs (Ark of the Covenant), the fundy Heaven/Hell idea was very likely not in play. It is quite a bit more likely that Uzziah and his contemporaries taught and believed that once death occured life n all forms and fashions was ended. No Heaven, no Hell, only the waiting in an unconscious "sleep" state for a future resurrection.