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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2011, 08:11:43 AM

Title: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2011, 08:11:43 AM
Depending on how you read it, between Yahweh deciding to flood the world, and actually doing it, there were between 7 days and 100 years.  Probably lots more than 7: that was the time Noah had to load the ark itself, so construction would've begun a while before that.  A few months to a year, let's say, between Yahweh deciding "kill everything" and actually doing it.  Let's call it the time between P-day (when he made the plan) and D-Day (when he started the rains).

Here's the point: it presumes that Yahweh knew on P-Day that everyone who would be alive on P-Day (except Noah et al) would be evil and deserved to die.  It's that, I think, that gives the most issues with free will....and god's benevolence.

On free will.....once P-day had passed, nobody could make any other choice than to be bad, without cauding god to explode in a paradox.  There is even, perhaps, an argument to say that once god made his mind up, he CAUSED everyone to head towards evil from that point onwards.  The omniscience vs. free will argument comes up a lot, but its this period that hihglights it most strongly, I think.  Equally, once god decided they would be saved.....did Noah and crew have the free will to be able to sin?

On benevolence......But if we assume that men COULD still make a free choice....then does that not call god's benevolence into question?  If it were still possible for a sinner to be redeemed, then does not P-day make him evil himself?  In the gap between P-day and D-day, a man with free will could have turned to good (perhaps swayed by Noah's example).  But it was clear on P-Day that god had decided to save only Noah and his family - so everyone else, from that day on, was stuffed.  No matter how good they bacame in those few weeks and months, they were already doomed.

So to me, that period of time, above any other part of the Bible, highlights how horrific Yahweh actually is - he either damns people be setting the future, or damns people by not caring about their actions.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 16, 2011, 08:19:56 AM
I couldn't agree more. It not only illustrates the most horrific human-god interaction in the bible, it is the point where the minds of children are hijacked.

Every Christian child is told the story of Noah's Ark. They are told, at the very least, that evil filled the world excepting one man and his family. God spared them, and brought destruction upon the rest in order to start anew.

Every. single. child. who is even the slightest bit inquisitive (and that's nearly all of them, excluding the most mentally disabled) has to come to grips with the notion that "God of the Bible is a loving God" is something they must accept, alongside the idea that he was capable of killing every person and every animal on earth except for a select few.

That is the biggest mind game there is in all of Christianity, right there. Children are being taken into [wiki]Room 101[/wiki] and are tortured with their worst fears until they agree that 2 + 2 = 5.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Alzael on May 16, 2011, 08:20:03 AM

On benevolence......But if we assume that men COULD still make a free choice....then does that not call god's benevolence into question?  If it were still possible for a sinner to be redeemed, then does not P-day make him evil himself?  In the gap between P-day and D-day, a man with free will could have turned to good (perhaps swayed by Noah's example).  But it was clear on P-Day that god had decided to save only Noah and his family - so everyone else, from that day on, was stuffed.  No matter how good they bacame in those few weeks and months, they were already doomed.


You're forgetting that the Christian concept of benevolence is a little different. By Christian standards he could still be benevolent because he may have had a good reason to still drown everyone. It could have had the future ramifications of making the earth a paradise eventually through an unknownd series of events.

"Mysterious Ways", your one-size-fits-all cop-out.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: William on May 16, 2011, 08:34:04 AM
I think the delay between God's decision on "P-day" to drown them all and the big wet on "D-day" must have been because God had accidentally misplaced the genetic code  :police:

Why else did He need Noah to bring breeders on board the ark for the human species and all other species which would otherwise become extinct in the flood?  :?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: velkyn on May 16, 2011, 09:12:37 AM
^^^^^ another very good point.  Why need animals if God can just create more? 

There is nothing benevolent or loving about this god.  Not one instance in the bible is based on just wanting the best for those you care for.  It is all about obediance no matter what, based on a carrot/stick approach. 
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Add Homonym on May 16, 2011, 09:15:16 AM
Noah built up karma points for building an Ark. People who watched lost karma points for laughing at him.

I don't think any humans survived the flood. I think we evolved from apes that came out of the ark.

To keep the flood story alive, Christians have had to accept accelerated evolution as the animals radiated from the ark, and made their way back to Australia.

It's the only theory supported by the fossil record.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 16, 2011, 10:44:10 AM
I think the delay between God's decision on "P-day" to drown them all and the big wet on "D-day" must have been because God had accidentally misplaced the genetic code  :police:

Why else did He need Noah to bring breeders on board the ark for the human species and all other species which would otherwise become extinct in the flood?  :?
NO SHIT he created the universe but cant remember how to recreate animals or humans? Is God retarded?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 16, 2011, 11:29:30 AM
You know, if I had seen this thread when I was still a Christian, my reaction would have been "It's a freakin' STORY, guys!"  When you analyze it so literally, you're as bad as the fundies.

The idea that OT stories can be taken allegorically or metaphorically is not just some modern liberal fringe notion, it goes back at least as far as St. Augustine, and is the preferred (or at least a permitted) view by all the mainstream Christian churches (like the RCC), apart from the literalist fundies.

Granted, they're not always too clear on where history ends and allegory/metaphor/inspirational myth begins, but that's another issue...

Also, the moral of the story seems pretty repugnant any way you slice it, but Christians are good at spinning it into a tale of mercy and redemption rather than death and destruction...(I guess they're just "glass half full" kind of people...lol  ;D)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: velkyn on May 16, 2011, 11:42:33 AM
You know, if I had seen this thread when I was still a Christian, my reaction would have been "It's a freakin' STORY, guys!"  When you analyze it so literally, you're as bad as the fundies.
  Yup, I would have likely too.  But then if someone said "It's a freakin' story, guys!" to the nonsense of the crucifiction, I would have gotten all upset.  But but, that part *has* to be true!!!!!! &)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: dloubet on May 16, 2011, 12:22:57 PM
The very concept of divine prophecy does violence to the concept of free will. According to the stories in the bible, the god could tell you that you're going to eat pizza next Tuesday and you will find that nothing you do, no amount of free will, will allow you to alter the fulfillment of that prophecy.

It also means that you're absolutely invulnerable until the fulfillment of the prophecy. You can't die until you eat pizza on Tuesday.

That's basically what happened with Jesus's prophecy that what-his-name would deny him three times. If only the guy realized he was invulnerable until his third denial, he might have been able to save the Jesus character! What an idiot!
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 16, 2011, 12:41:23 PM
It's kind of funny to me that a bunch of atheists would sit and debate the benevolence or not of a guy we don;'t even believe in..Did the imaginary god do this? No wait! He did that! He did it because.....he doesn't exist! I'm guilty of it too..
That's kind of like asking if I went outside and washed the car I don't have.. Well.. I have the cleanest spot of air in the whole world! And why did I was the car I don't have? The answer is obvious... I did it to kill anyone who doesn't believe I washed it!  If you don't believe I washed the car I don't have you'll die in the flood from the water I never used and might get a slight case of soap poisoning too..  &)

Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: gonegolfing on May 16, 2011, 12:41:53 PM
Quote
So to me, that period of time, above any other part of the Bible, highlights how horrific Yahweh actually is - he either damns people be setting the future, or damns people by not caring about their actions.


This is one of the worst, disgusting, and most laughable allegories in the babble.

Based on the story as presented, it would have been 1,656 years from Adam to the flood. We can somewhat safely speculate that hundreds of millions and perhaps even over a billion people would have existed on the planet at that time.

Not ONE other person was a believer ? Not ONE !?!? ...8 people that's it !?!? ..Gimmie a break !!

Jebus Cripes! at least 6 out of 10 people you meet today are some type of god idiot, and the jugheads that wrote this expect people to believe that only 8 were good enough to make it then !?
An utter joke if meant to be true  :D

And this isn't even to mention that it's virtually impossible to get a coherent moral meaning out of the allegory.

An utterly ugly failure as an allegorical teaching story. 

 
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 16, 2011, 12:51:36 PM
It's kind of funny to me that a bunch of atheists would sit and debate the benevolence or not of a guy we don;'t even believe in..Did the imaginary god do this? No wait! He did that! He did it because.....he doesn't exist! I'm guilty of it too..
That's kind of like asking if I went outside and washed the car I don't have.. Well.. I have the cleanest spot of air in the whole world! And why did I was the car I don't have? The answer is obvious... I did it to kill anyone who doesn't believe I washed it!  If you don't believe I washed the car I don't have you'll die in the flood from the water I never used and might get a slight case of soap poisoning too..  &)
;D

I didn't discuss it from that angle, though. I discussed this story as one of the first, most powerful tools used by believers to unhinge the minds of children.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 16, 2011, 01:06:05 PM
It's kind of funny to me that a bunch of atheists would sit and debate the benevolence or not of a guy we don;'t even believe in..Did the imaginary god do this? No wait! He did that! He did it because.....he doesn't exist! I'm guilty of it too..
That's kind of like asking if I went outside and washed the car I don't have.. Well.. I have the cleanest spot of air in the whole world! And why did I was the car I don't have? The answer is obvious... I did it to kill anyone who doesn't believe I washed it!  If you don't believe I washed the car I don't have you'll die in the flood from the water I never used and might get a slight case of soap poisoning too..  &)
;D

I didn't discuss it from that angle, though. I discussed this story as one of the first, most powerful tools used by believers to unhinge the minds of children.
But children should be brainwashed or they won't believe they have to buy a lot of crap toward the end of December for people who will never really appreciate it.. :o
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Add Homonym on May 16, 2011, 08:09:20 PM
An utterly ugly failure as an allegorical teaching story. 

It teaches us that some people can believe any shit. God just stuck it there for a laugh.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 17, 2011, 12:18:22 PM
You know, if I had seen this thread when I was still a Christian, my reaction would have been "It's a freakin' STORY, guys!"  When you analyze it so literally, you're as bad as the fundies.
  Yup, I would have likely too.  But then if someone said "It's a freakin' story, guys!" to the nonsense of the crucifiction, I would have gotten all upset.  But but, that part *has* to be true!!!!!! &)

Well, Jesus' death and resurrection is non-negotiable. It has to be historically true because God's salvation plan depends on it. But nobody's salvation depends on the historicity of Noah, so nothing's really lost if it's taken as an allegorical myth.

Taking it allegorically is a big improvement, it would mean God didn't actually have to use mass death and destruction just to make a point.

I have no idea why fundies so desperately want this story to be literally true, since it's so unflattering to God. Not only does it contradict the notion that he is benevolent, it's at odds with him being all-knowing, since he basically changes his mind at the end and regrets what he did!  The details of the story (which Christians gloss over when they make it into a kid-friendly tale about saving animals and inventing the rainbow) make God a capricious and cruel bastard...
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: velkyn on May 17, 2011, 12:28:29 PM
I have no idea why fundies so desperately want this story to be literally true, since it's so unflattering to God. Not only does it contradict the notion that he is benevolent, it's at odds with him being all-knowing, since he basically changes his mind at the end and regrets what he did!  The details of the story (which Christians gloss over when they make it into a kid-friendly tale about saving animals and inventing the rainbow) make God a capricious and cruel bastard...

I think it's because many Christians don't want God to be benevolent at all.  They want the revenge on others who dare to tell them they are wrong, and god is the tool for that. They react like 3 year olds when they find out they aren't special.  They want a capricious god that is beholden to them as long as they suck up to it.  Who was it here that mentioned the whole "oriental despot" thing? 
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 17, 2011, 12:32:42 PM
I think it's because many Christians don't want God to be benevolent at all.  They want the revenge on others who dare to tell them they are wrong, and god is the tool for that. They react like 3 year olds when they find out they aren't special.  They want a capricious god that is beholden to them as long as they suck up to it.  Who was it here that mentioned the whole "oriental despot" thing?
You are so right. They'll say their god is loving, but really want they want is to be able to pat themselves on the back because they got things right and we didn't.

It's as immature as that boy in 5th grade whose self-regard was so low that he regularly resorted to putting everyone else down in order to make himself look good. Isn't it amazing how many millions of people never grow up beyond that?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 17, 2011, 01:01:23 PM
I think it's because many Christians don't want God to be benevolent at all.  They want the revenge on others who dare to tell them they are wrong, and god is the tool for that. They react like 3 year olds when they find out they aren't special.  They want a capricious god that is beholden to them as long as they suck up to it.  Who was it here that mentioned the whole "oriental despot" thing?
You are so right. They'll say their god is loving, but really want they want is to be able to pat themselves on the back because they got things right and we didn't.

It's as immature as that boy in 5th grade whose self-regard was so low that he regularly resorted to putting everyone else down in order to make himself look good. Isn't it amazing how many millions of people never grow up beyond that?
You got that right.. go to any general ax me site such as yahoo answers, answerbag or any of them then drill into the religion section where atheists post and you'll find hundreds, if not thousands of posts that go something like: You fucking atheists are going to burn in hell and I'll be laughing at your sorry asses for ever!
They're expecting maybe some sort of atheist burning in hell viewing portal where they can gleefully watch us burning in torment? Nothing says a benevolent god like an eternal burning in hell viewing portal for the TrueChristiansTM  &)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Ambivalent on May 17, 2011, 01:02:45 PM

That is the biggest mind game there is in all of Christianity, right there. Children are being taken into [wiki]Room 101[/wiki] and are tortured with their worst fears until they agree that 2 + 2 = 5.

It's funny you mention that. I remember *exactly* when I began to doubt in the Biblical God. I was 9 years old, in 3rd grade, in a publicly founded Catholic elementary school. My teacher decided now was the time (in religion class), to teach us the story of Noah's ark. She showed up this cheap movie and we read short kid Bible stories of it. We then add to make an artsy scene from the story.

I recall speaking with my Dad about it.

"But how good a loving God kill everyone and everything?! What if he says we're evil and does it to us?!" See, the concept of murder greatly disturbed me as a child. It still does to this day.

But my Dad managed to relax me with this simple sentence;

"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."

While I did relax, I still remember how unsettling I felt. And from what I recall, everyone took the Noah story literally - including my parents! It was like the Jesus story, it was one of the few 'true' ones. That's what I learned to believe.

And my parents aren't even religiously-crazy people. They're *almost* entirely normal aside from their 'pick-and-choose' Bible thing.  :-\ I remember trying to figure out where the signs of the great flood happened. I was told by someone it was the 'Grand Canyon'. xD
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 17, 2011, 01:09:28 PM

That is the biggest mind game there is in all of Christianity, right there. Children are being taken into [wiki]Room 101[/wiki] and are tortured with their worst fears until they agree that 2 + 2 = 5.

It's funny you mention that. I remember *exactly* when I began to doubt in the Biblical God. I was 9 years old, in 3rd grade, in a publicly founded Catholic elementary school. My teacher decided now was the time (in religion class), to teach us the story of Noah's ark. She showed up this cheap movie and we read short kid Bible stories of it. We then add to make an artsy scene from the story.

I recall speaking with my Dad about it.

"But how good a loving God kill everyone and everything?! What if he says we're evil and does it to us?!" See, the concept of murder greatly disturbed me as a child. It still does to this day.

But my Dad managed to relax me with this simple sentence;

"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."

While I did relax, I still remember how unsettling I felt. And from what I recall, everyone took the Noah story literally - including my parents! It was like the Jesus story, it was one of the few 'true' ones. That's what I learned to believe.

And my parents aren't even religiously-crazy people. They're *almost* entirely normal aside from their 'pick-and-choose' Bible thing.  :-\ I remember trying to figure out where the signs of the great flood happened. I was told by someone it was the 'Grand Canyon'. xD
So nice of daddy to reassure you.. Did he mention that instead of drowning us this time he plans to BURN us instead? Many of us FOREVER!  :o  Better get some fire insurance..  &)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 17, 2011, 03:27:48 PM
...my Dad managed to relax me with this simple sentence;

"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."

Except that God left that big fat loophole in - he wouldn't destroy us BY FLOOD. Big whoop. Even as a kid I saw through that one right away - I remember wondering just how he would kill us the next time!

I also remember feeling more sorry for all the animals that died than the people. My children's picture book version of the story made it clear that it was their own fault - there was a picture of them maliciously jeering and mocking Noah and his family. I think the book even fudged the story and had Noah trying to warn them, and feeling bad when they wouldn't listen...

The story is so twisted that they had to stack the deck to justify God's behavior. The other humans had to be shown as so evil that they really deserved to be exterminated, and we're not supposed to wonder about the children and babies...
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 17, 2011, 03:58:24 PM
It's only twisted because we're not True BelieversTM If we were then it would all be made perfectly clear why it's a load of shit..  &)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: nogodsforme on May 17, 2011, 04:01:42 PM
Agree. Noah story is stupid and evil. A twofer.

What did the people and animals eat when they got off the ark? There are no plants left and lots of the animals are herbivores....You can't kill any of the animals 'cause you only have two of each.... You can't wait for food to be planted and grow, even if you have seeds..... Everyone's gotta get busy mating and replenish the earth but what do they eat?

And did all the sea creatures "drown", too?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: dloubet on May 17, 2011, 06:32:49 PM
Quote
"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."


What kind of moral reasoning is that? That would suggest that it's okay if I murder someone as long as I promise never to do it again.

Wait, does this mean we all get one free murder?

Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 17, 2011, 07:52:20 PM
Quote
"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."


What kind of moral reasoning is that? That would suggest that it's okay if I murder someone as long as I promise never to do it again.

Wait, does this mean we all get one free murder?
You get a few hundred free murders depending in the last census..  :D In Gods case he got a few million freebies, but he promises to never do it again...with a flood.. Oh wait.. people are still dying in floods.. Lying bastard.. >:(
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: catlady on May 18, 2011, 02:56:24 AM
In Sunday School, when I was about 3 years old, Noah was portrayed as a kind old gentleman of god, a holy person with saintly qualities. The emphasis on the story were the animals--the cute fuzzy kitties and puppies, cute little turtles, frogs, and every manner of interesting animal to children-even lizards, snakes (!) and dinosaurs to keep the little boys interested in hearing the story.

Nothing was said about evil people--but just that "bad people drowned". We had the felt cutouts and the flannel board to further illustrate the story, with a different kid picking their favorite 2 animals to put in the ark. Then, there were the songs, too, and stupid rhymes to memorize this myth and indoctrinate us. However, it was all viewed as "cute" when all the little kids acted out the story in front of the church's congregation. I believe  Noah's ark is used as the "hook" to get children involved with xtian biblegod. Noah's ark is merely a "cute story from history". Ha Ha Ha Ha! Talk about brainwashing!
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Anfauglir on May 18, 2011, 04:24:37 AM
Based on the story as presented, it would have been 1,656 years from Adam to the flood. We can somewhat safely speculate that hundreds of millions and perhaps even over a billion people would have existed on the planet at that time.

Not ONE other person was a believer ? Not ONE !?!? ...8 people that's it !?!? ..Gimmie a break !!

Good point.  Especially since Adam - a man who walked and talked with god himself - was alive for over 900 of those years.  Who could probably lead people to the closed gates of Eden and say "I used to live there".  People lived pretty close, of course, in the land of Nod just to the East.  Probably a nice day trip to peer through the gates at the pretty flowers.

The person I feel sorriest for is Methuselah...poor old Methuselah who lived right up to the flood.  Methuselah who would have watched Noah and his sons banging and hammering, and wondering "where's MY bedroom on this Ark?".

Interestingly, depending on how long construction actually took on the boat, certainly Methuselah and possibly his son Lamech (who died 5 years before the Flood) would have been alive on P-day.  So what does that mean?  Taking it as its written, Methuselah and Lamech were part of the problem - so evil they deserved to be drowned with all the other humans.  Which rather says something about the "wonderful" lineage of Adam, given that at least one generation was too evil to live.

I suppose you could argue that god "knew" Methuselah was due to die in the next few years, and held off the rains until he did.  But what sense is there in that?  Just means that evil rules the earth a bit longer, and increased the chance of Noah dropping from a heart-attack - he was 600 when he built the boat, after all.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 18, 2011, 05:19:19 AM
I believe  Noah's ark is used as the "hook" to get children involved with xtian biblegod.

That's pretty much been my point this entire thread.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Noman Peopled on May 18, 2011, 05:43:28 AM
Taking it allegorically is a big improvement, it would mean God didn't actually have to use mass death and destruction just to make a point.
Is it, though?

As far as interpreting the story goes, god still sees fit to issue a blanket death penalty for quite literally every living thing on Earth excepting a bunch of animals and one family. The reasons given are very vague if meant to be literal or not, and nowhere does it even go into the possibility of redemption. In this it's very much like the Caananites' genocidal wars it describes elsewhere.
It works as a story of course. Imperial stormtroopers are bad so the Jedi can gut them with impunity. The problem arises not when the text is taken literally but when read as a guide to life. The literalists have to add justifications for a million little things that "could still have happened" (TM) in addition to a mere interpretation, but the message of the text is independent of its contents' factuality. It's largely the message that's worrisome.

For the same reason, the problem of reconciling the Noah story with the concept of free will (and the resulting possibility of redemption) doesn't vanish if the texts in question are metaphorical or allegorical.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 18, 2011, 06:18:18 AM
Taking it allegorically is a big improvement, it would mean God didn't actually have to use mass death and destruction just to make a point.

I think it's worse than if it were real.

If it's taken literally, God is a real piece of work, but hey! at least it's history, right?

If it's taken allegorically, then the story's writers thought this angle on God was so worthy of admiration that a fake story was written to illustrate these character points. What kind of people would admire this kind of evil so much they would write a story about it?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Anfauglir on May 18, 2011, 06:37:11 AM
If its allegorical, then what should we make of the rainbow?

The rainbow is the sign (in the literal version) that god smote the wicked but won't do it again....at least until he changes his mind in Revelation and all the wicked get smitten (see below).

But in an allegory?  We get something happening in reality that promises that something that never happened....will never happen again.  What?

So then I suppose you could look on the (literal) rainbow for the (allegorical) story as saying "god really wanted to kill off all the wicked....but decided not to because there were a handful of good people still around, and left the rainbow as symbol of that promise".  Which is all well and good, but doesn't really make any sense. 

Unless those rainbows continue forever and there IS no second coming or judgement day, then all they are is the equivalent of someone pointing gun at you on a daily basis, pulling the tirigger...and saying "chamber was empty today, see you tomorrow, hyuk hyuk hyuk".  And so not only do we STILL have the questions of free will I initially raised, but also we have to accept god as a homicidal maniac held in check only by whatever whim drives him today. 

Not terribly comforting, I have to say - and again, not a creature that is in any way benevolent.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Noman Peopled on May 18, 2011, 07:20:04 AM
Well, kinda. The story just uses a real-world phenomenon. It's just be a rhetoric figure emphasizing god's resolve to never flood the Earth (again).
We basically get a real-world phenomenon that's used to reinforce the idea that something that happened in the context of the story will never happen (again) within or outside the context of the story, depending on interpretation. An allegorical story can use a real-world reference to use in an otherwise purely fictitious story.
(For example, déjà-vus are glitches in a computer system within the context of the Matrix. It doesn't mean real-life déjà-vus are signs of the presence of Agents.)

Of course you're right that even aliteralist believers can hit a hitch here. They need the story to say that the flood will never happen outside the story as opposed to within its context. That part at least needs to be literal or else it's just another story. To be fair, this one story doesn't seem to be integral enough for cafeteria christians to take the whole rainbow bit seriously. But there are others that are integral and need to be true, like resurrection, redemption, and the garden of Eden thing. They can still be allegories or metaphors but they need to at least represent something real quite accurately. Personally, I'd say that this goes for Noah's flood as well (from a literary standpoint) but then again I don't think the story needs to represent anything real.
It's no like aliteralists can do without jumping through hoops ... They still need to justify somehow why the bible is not just a bunch of books they really like.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 18, 2011, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: Noman Peopled link=topic=18877.msg418700#msg418700date=1305715408
As far as interpreting the story goes, god still sees fit to issue a blanket death penalty for quite literally every living thing on Earth excepting a bunch of animals and one family.


I didn't say the story becomes heartwarming and delightful if it's allegorical  :) Just less heinous and arguably more consistent with the Christian claim that God is benevolent.

Remember, a Christian begins with the pre-supposition that humans owe everything to God, as our all-powerful Creator. God is under no obligation to permit our continued existence, that we're allowed to exist at all is an act of love and benevolence. So God's actions can't be equated to human-on-human acts of murder or execution. 

Quote
...the problem of reconciling the Noah story with the concept of free will (and the resulting possibility of redemption) doesn't vanish if the texts in question are metaphorical or allegorical.


I don't know. Believers pre-suppose God wants humans to behave themselves well. In the confines of this story, it's assumed that people were behaving "wickedly", of their own free will, and that they had refused to be redeemed. Of course, if the story were taken literally, one could ask how children and babies could be judged the same way as adults. (I suppose the believer could say that babies' fate is the tragic consequence of man's wickedness, which harms those around them as well as themselves. Also, babies aren't truly "innocent" to a Christian who believes in original sin.)  In any case, it's not as much of a problem if the story is taken allegorically, since no actual babies would have been harmed in the making of the tale.

Metaphorically, humanity has "redeemed" itself through the goodness of Noah's family, and God allows the human race as a whole to continue. The metaphorical fate of the others is a warning that those who reject God and choose wickedness will not be "saved."







Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: velkyn on May 18, 2011, 01:41:58 PM
problem is that there is no offer or opportunity for redemption in the Noah story and thus no free will needed to reject something that didn't happen.  God vanishes for "x" amount of time.  God comes back, decides that since everyone doesn't believe in him (whichI find different than doing anything anti-benevolent), he'll murder them.  then after the flood, Noah, gets drunk, is evidently cuckholded by his son and then curses the son of the the perpetrator.  Yep, a great family this is to redeem humanity.  8)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 18, 2011, 02:26:17 PM
Well... my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great100 grandfather Noah it turns out had demon seed in him too so once again god fucked up.. He started out with Adam and he and his old lady turned out to be rotters so god decided to kill all their kids except one family and THAT family turned ultimately into rotters too... C'mon god! Goddammit! Go back and pick a better family!  &)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 18, 2011, 04:14:46 PM
problem is that there is no offer or opportunity for redemption in the Noah story and thus no free will needed to reject something that didn't happen.  God vanishes for "x" amount of time.  God comes back, decides that since everyone doesn't believe in him (whichI find different than doing anything anti-benevolent), he'll murder them.  then after the flood, Noah, gets drunk, is evidently cuckholded by his son and then curses the son of the the perpetrator.  Yep, a great family this is to redeem humanity.  8)

Wait, the son cuckolded him? Is that what that bizarre story is supposed to mean? According to the text he just saw Noah naked (after he passed out drunk) and didn't cover him up. The punishment DOES seem strangely harsh (not to mention misdirected) just for inadvertently catching a glimpse of Dad's willy...I figured it had something to do with not respecting or taking care of your parents... 

(And according to some Christians, and 19th century Mormons, it's the story of how we got black people!) 

Anyway, I was reading the story again, and there are other weird details, starting with something about human women fornicating with angels and giving birth to giants (Genesis 6). But it does clearly state that man was full of wickedness and continuous evil in his heart. So the Christian would say that those people exercised their free will in being wicked, and did nothing to be redeemed.
 
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 18, 2011, 04:21:23 PM
I think it's worse than if it were real.
If it's taken literally, God is a real piece of work, but hey! at least it's history, right?

If it's taken allegorically, then the story's writers thought this angle on God was so worthy of admiration that a fake story was written to illustrate these character points. What kind of people would admire this kind of evil so much they would write a story about it?

I guess my point was that either way, BS and spin is required to reconcile these actions with a loving and benevolent God.  And to me, the fundie spin is much more repugnant than the non-fundie.

Faced with a story like the Flood (or, even more to the point, genocides of the Canaanites and others) the non-literalist Christian might say "Well, we don't think these things actually happened...of course God doesn't really want to drown babies and slaughter women and children...they're stories that ancient authors wrote to teach a lesson.....they seem barbaric to us because they were written by primitive people with a different value system...they reflect the time and place and limitations of the authors...it's morality as these primitive people imperfectly understood it, not as God intended for an ideal..." etc.

The literalists say "Well, those people really deserved it, they were thoroughly evil...God is right to eradicate evil...the children are contaminated by the evil of their parents...killing them was an act of mercy because the Isrealites couldn't take care of them..." etc.

In other words, the non-literalists spin by running away from the killing and genocides, realizing they are fundamentally incompatible with a benevolent God. The literalists double down and embrace the killing and genocides, and try to make it seem benevolent by spinning us on how depraved and evil people are, and how these actions were deserved. I think one of these approaches results in a much more warped and twisted worldview than the other.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 18, 2011, 04:28:15 PM
Old Bill Cosby once upon a time did a comedy routine about Noah and the ark... Kind of funny if any of you youngsters care to look it up and listen to it..  Every time I think of the story of the ark I think of Bill Cosby for some reason.. Maybe it's because I heard it when I was a little kid..  :D
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Graybeard on May 18, 2011, 05:24:59 PM
I can’t get excited about the OT folk tales. They are just stories, each country and culture has them. http://www.chlive.org/pbeck/eastlibrary/MYTHOLOGY.htm#EUROPEAN%20MYTHOLOGY That some people take them seriously, yet agree that folk tales from The Arabian Nights, Tajikistan, France, Scandinavia, etc., are just interesting stories, is quite amazing. They have many themes in common – the victory of good over evil, the trickster, the wise man, the great hero, the escape from poverty, the hope for the future, a lesson in behaviour, etc.

I suppose I should wonder what people thought about them at the time. Obviously talking donkeys, cats in boots, etc., were not believed, stories of the trickster were more than likely exaggerations and treated as such – the teller did not believe them, but told them as if he did and, in the absence of snopes.com, urban myths appeared. Stories of the superhero ([wiki]Sampson[/wiki],[wiki] Fionn mac Cumhaill[/wiki], [wiki]King Arthur[/wiki], [wiki]Hercules[/wiki], etc) were just the Marvel Comics of their day. Having had success with one character, the story teller would invent more and more adventures staring the hero. Here we have the origins of the Jesus Myth.

Beyond the superman who could lift oxen and defeat lions, were the stories of the gods to enable the physically inexplicable to be explained. I have little doubt that there was a large and devastating flood at some time in the Middle East and that no one near the event would have survived to tell what exactly had exactly happened to cause it. So, it was obvious, the story would have to be that some god did it. http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Fi-Go/Floods.html

To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 18, 2011, 05:39:04 PM
To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.

Telling us about a real god? Of course not.

It does, however, tell us a lot about the god they are worshiping[1], which is real to them. This in turn tells us a lot about the character of the people doing the worshiping.
 1. as a character in literature
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: lotanddaughters on May 18, 2011, 07:15:14 PM
But children should be brainwashed or they won't believe they have to buy a lot of crap toward the end of December for people who will never really appreciate it.. :o

Dude, you're killin' me. Months from now, people are going to be wondering why atheists refer to the religious indoctrination of children as "car-washingTM of Mram Enterprises".
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Graybeard on May 18, 2011, 07:50:54 PM
It does, however, tell us a lot about the god they are worshiping[1], which is real to them. This in turn tells us a lot about the character of the people doing the worshiping.
 1. as a character in literature
Interesting. Do you think that these people would destroy the world? Or think that anyone destroying the world and all animal life, for whatever reason, was a good idea?

Or do you think that they compartmentalise their ‘religion’ and are otherwise normal? i.e. don't apply these folk tales in real life.

“Yes God did that and it was entirely justified because He is good, but I would never do, or approve of, something like that even in the worst circumstances.”

Does it speak to all of them or just some?

So what does it tell us?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 18, 2011, 09:06:10 PM
It does, however, tell us a lot about the god they are worshiping[1], which is real to them. This in turn tells us a lot about the character of the people doing the worshiping.
 1. as a character in literature
Interesting. Do you think that these people would destroy the world? Or think that anyone destroying the world and all animal life, for whatever reason, was a good idea?
I think it's a matter of how deep the disconnect is between their dedication to believing, and their trust in their own common sense.

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Or do you think that they compartmentalise their ‘religion’ and are otherwise normal? i.e. don't apply these folk tales in real life.
Same thing again. I have known people who were otherwise very reasonable, very financially and socially successful people who truly believe in the god of the OT and take Noah's Ark quite literally. I have some of these people in my life right now!

If I were to ask any of them point blank over coffee, "Why do you think God thought this was okay? Would you do the same in a similar situation?" I am sure I could receive one of several different reactions. Off the top of my head I can imagine (1) belligerent denial (of the moral problem), or "God is God and what he did was acceptable because he works in mysterious ways"; (2) weak denial of the moral problem, or "God is God and what he did was acceptable because he works in mysterious ways" - but you can see the doubt on their faces; (3) confusion, or "I don't know why he did that. He just did."

As for whether or not they would do it if they were in God's place, I am sure the same variety could show up. I can easily imagine a believer saying that if God decided it was a good idea, then it must have been acceptable and therefore he would have done similarly. I suspect, though, that more often we'd see people dissociating on this issue because their common sense would be kicking in, but they wouldn't want to listen to it because that would require them to lose faith. And 'keeping faith' is something these people are deeply invested in and don't walk away from easily.

This would make an interesting experiment with the people in my life of whom I'm thinking. I'm very curious how they would react, but if I were a betting woman I'd feel pretty confident in my guess since I know them fairly well. I am sitting here imagining each of the reactions of about 10 different people I know who fit this description...  ;D

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Does it speak to all of them or just some?
I should think that variety in human nature leads to variety in human reaction. But if they truly believe in the God of Noah's Ark--and they are firmly entrenched within and committed to the Life of Faith at all Costs mindset--that disconnect from their own common sense re: morality would be a huge issue.

I suspect that the more they've denied their "conscience" the right to be heard--in favor of Faith in God at All Cost--the greater the likelihood that they will insist that what God did was just and right and truly believe their own voice.

Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: grant on May 19, 2011, 05:52:49 AM
I can’t get excited about the OT folk tales. They are just stories, each country and culture has them. That some people take them seriously, yet agree that folk tales from The Arabian Nights, Tajikistan, France, Scandinavia, etc., are just interesting stories, is quite amazing. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character.

Editing mine but couldn't agree more. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: gonegolfing on May 19, 2011, 07:41:34 AM

Persephone:

Quote
I should think that variety in human nature leads to variety in human reaction. But if they truly believe in the God of Noah's Ark--and they are firmly entrenched within and committed to the Life of Faith at all Costs mindset--that disconnect from their own common sense re: morality would be a huge issue.

I suspect that the more they've denied their "conscience" the right to be heard--in favor of Faith in God at All Cost--the greater the likelihood that they will insist that what God did was just and right and truly believe their own voice.


This was a gigantic issue for me while a theist. The obvious and willful disconnect on my part was hard to cope with. The amount of mental gymnastics and contortions needed to keep this disconnect intact is astonishing, but emotions and desires coupled with faith are very powerful and they won the battle for many years.

The unneccessary and senseless pressure caused by such a harmful disconnect however became to great and finally my mind gave ;) Just as a tectonic plate finally gives after buckling under for so long. Thank goodness !

+1 Good Points  :D
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: velkyn on May 19, 2011, 09:00:29 AM
To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.
do you mean that one can't know the character of this particular god from the stories about it? 
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: String1248 on May 19, 2011, 09:31:11 AM
To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” Schoch went on to observe: "Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups”

Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood."

If cultures descended directly from the flood’s survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and universal, having been passed down from generation to generation. Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical flood tradition.

About 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and 70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions mention birds being sent out from the boat.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Noman Peopled on May 19, 2011, 09:41:38 AM
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest”
I wonder why a geologist feels the need to delve into mythological similarities no athropologist would find surprising in the least.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Dante on May 19, 2011, 09:48:21 AM

Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood."

And right now, people along the Mississippi delta, as well as those in eastern Japan, have great flood stories to tell their children as well. Weird, huh?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: velkyn on May 19, 2011, 09:56:11 AM
Wait, the son cuckolded him? Is that what that bizarre story is supposed to mean? According to the text he just saw Noah naked (after he passed out drunk) and didn't cover him up. The punishment DOES seem strangely harsh (not to mention misdirected) just for inadvertently catching a glimpse of Dad's willy...I figured it had something to do with not respecting or taking care of your parents... 
You can see the cuckhold theory here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_(son_of_Noah)#Curse_of_Canaan  I've also seen, when googling around, that some Christians think that Ham got some sexual thrill seeing his father naked  :o   It's also weird in that Noah didn't curse Ham, but only his son.

Quote
(And according to some Christians, and 19th century Mormons, it's the story of how we got black people!) 
Anyway, I was reading the story again, and there are other weird details, starting with something about human women fornicating with angels and giving birth to giants (Genesis 6). But it does clearly state that man was full of wickedness and continuous evil in his heart. So the Christian would say that those people exercised their free will in being wicked, and did nothing to be redeemed.
yep, they would.  However, the problem with this is that there is nothing to support free will in the bible.   :)  And that curse of Canaan not Ham would seem ot underline this.
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” Schoch went on to observe: "Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups” Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood."
Nice regurgitation of nonsense there, String.  funny how not all civilizations, like, oh, the Egyptians, mention a flood story.  It's sad that  Mr. Schoch, being a geologist, can't show one bit of evidence for this worldwide flood in the geological record.  I'm a geologist so I know exactly what one would look for in that record and darn, it's not there at all. 


Quote
If cultures descended directly from the flood’s survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and universal, having been passed down from generation to generation. Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical flood tradition.
Which it wasn't, see my examples above.  So more lies about this being "universal".  And you know why else flood stories could be wide spread, String?  Because civilizations have grown up around water sources which, suprise! often flood causes great destruction.  Very easy to add that to a myth.  And not so suprisingly, the Babylonian flood myth is older than the Jewish one and do you remember when the Israelites were taken to Babylon?  Yep, that's right the babylonian captivity would have exposed them to something that they didnt' have before but coopted into their own myths.   

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About 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and 70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions mention birds being sent out from the boat. [/size]
  Golly a myth that realized that you had to have a male and female to repopulate the earth?  Shocking!  Please do tell us how Noah got koalas, giant sloths, moas, etc, onto that boat.  Where was the food?  Even if you pureed the animals they still won't fit.  It's also amusing that belivers can't even agree on where this boat came to rest at. You'd think people could remember such details, but they can't even agree on where JC was buried and raised, supposedly the most important event in Christianity, so I guess how could you blame them? 

I do wonder, why don't you believe about the story of Deucalion and Phyrra who didn't even need a boat, just staying at the top of a mountain and then throwing stones behind them to create mankind and animals again.  It's just as valid as your myth, considering that they have no evidence to support them.  Or any one of these: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: relativetruth on May 19, 2011, 10:07:33 AM
Why did God not just create a horrible virus to only infect all those evil humans so that they all died lingering deaths comtemplating their evilness. The 'good' would have learnt the lesson by witnessing 'God's wrath' about what happens when you stray.

Why should the rest of the animal world need to suffer? After all they have no souls and do not know the difference between good and evil.

He could easily have created all 'good' life organisms with the appropriate DNA to resist this vicious virus.
He then does not need to invoke magic afterwards to relocate the species.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Add Homonym on May 19, 2011, 11:01:09 AM
Why did God not just create a horrible virus to only infect all those evil humans so.....

Why didn't he just create another planet, and tell Noah how to make a space ship?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: relativetruth on May 19, 2011, 11:19:06 AM
Why did God not just create a horrible virus to only infect all those evil humans so.....

Why didn't he just create another planet, and tell Noah how to make a space ship?

Why tell him how to make a space ship?
Why not just magically transport him and his family there?
The animals can be re-created anyway why should Noah have to preserve the species?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 11:27:46 AM
Why tell him how to make a space ship?
Why not just magically transport him and his family there?
The animals can be re-created anyway why should Noah have to preserve the species?

Oh, me likee. Think of all the fun God could have had with naming the story.

*Noah's Borg Cube 'o Fun

*Noah, Ripley, and Nostromo: A Love Story

*Captain Noah James T. Kirk and the U.S.S. Enterprise: Starring  Spock, Bones, and Scotty as his sons

*Noah and the Death Star: Bringing Destruction to a Location Near You
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Noman Peopled on May 19, 2011, 11:53:20 AM
You forgot "Noahstromo".


I'm sorry, that was terrible.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 12:00:24 PM
You forgot "Noahstromo".


I'm sorry, that was terrible.

Hot damn you're good.

Noahstromo. Hee hee.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 19, 2011, 12:52:55 PM
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” Schoch went on to observe: "Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups”


It's not controversial to note that there are many flood myths around the world. Does this Robert Schoch go on to claim that they are evidence for the historicity of a single global flood, in particular the flood of Noah? Or is that part your addition?

Robert Schoch's wikipedia entry doesn't mention flood claims, but it does list some other rather odd ideas he's associated with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Schoch

Quote
If cultures descended directly from the flood’s survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and universal, having been passed down from generation to generation. Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal.

Since traumatic floods occur with relative frequency throughout most parts of the world, it's safe to say that we are all descended from "flood survivors," and we would expect to find memories of such events common to most cultures. The unsupported leap you make is in suggesting that a single worldwide flood of the kind described in the Bible was responsible.

If we look at the work on comparative mythology done by people like Joseph Campbell and others, we learn that there are MANY "mythological archetypes" which turn up repeatedly in cultures around the world, often with remarkable similarities. These include beliefs in solar deities, lunar deities, "trickster gods" and "mother goddesses," among others.  But I've yet to hear a Christian suggest that the widespread nature of these beliefs is evidence for their historicity!
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 19, 2011, 03:12:50 PM
Not to mention there is not one more drop of water on earth there wasn't the day the earth formed with water on it..nor is there one drop less except of course the vast oceans that NASA has been draining into the heavens..  &)  Of course I'm kind of guessing on where all this water ACTUALLY came from because I wasn't here back then. I'm darned sure it didn't just *poof* appear all at once..  :D
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Graybeard on May 19, 2011, 03:57:13 PM
Hmmm... you're not paying attention:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17992.msg400281.html#msg400281
OK,

Obviously all you sinners did not realise that there is a perfectly sensible explanation and that The Flood really did cause the canyons on Mars: The Fountains of the deep ejected water into space, this became comets which hit Mars. (I’m feeling a bit of an idiot now for not realising this)

However, I will admit that when reading the OP, I was sceptical, so I wrote to the Radio Station

Dear Sir,
in

http://www.creationmoments.com/radio/transcripts/did-noahs-flood-affect-mars-too

you quote the following:

"While the Bible doesn't say anything about the flood that would suggest Mars was involved, some creation geologists say that it may have been. Once thing is certain. This water action did not take place billions of years ago as those who believe in evolution say."

I am in the middle of preparing a modest publication on the Noahide Flood; I would be most grateful if could you give me some references for the creation geologists who have suggested that the Flood involved Mars as you say.

YIC

Paul Quinton

________________________________________
From: zena taylor <xxxxx@yahoo.ca>
To: paulxxx@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 10:07:33 PM
Subject: Genesis Flood and Mars


Dear Paul Quinton:
 
Thank you for your interest in Creation Moments and our little radio program.
As far as I am aware, there is only one creationist who has suggested a possible connection between water [?] on Mars, water on our Moon and the Genesis Flood. The quote below is taken from the seventh edition [2001] of Dr. Walter Brown’s book In the Beginning …
 
 Quote page 199: About 85% of a comet’s mass is frozen water. Therefore to understand comet origins, one must ask, “Where is water found?” Earth … must head the list … other planets, moons and even interstellar space have only traces of water, or possible water. These traces, instead of producing the comets, may have been caused by comets or water vapor that the “fountains of the great deep” launched into space [at the beginning of the Genesis Flood]. Quote continued, page 200. How could so many comets have recently hit the moon, and probably the planet Mercury [and Mars] that ice remains? Ice on the Moon and certainly on Mercury [and Mars] should disappear faster than the comets that deposited it. However, if 50,000 comets were ejected recently [5,000 years ago] from the Earth and an “ocean” of water vapor was injected into the inner solar system, the problem disappears. Comet impacts on Mars probably created brief saltwater flows, carving the famous “erosion” channels.
 
Brackets in the above quote are my added words. Dr. Brown’s discussion then continues for several more pages and includes tables of data and equations. I have great respect for Dr. Brown and know him personally as a Christian brother. Dr Brown’s hydroplate theory proposes that prior to the Genesis Flood there was an annular space between the Earth’s outer shell and the solid inner core. That space was maintained by supporting pillars between the shell and the core and was filled with hot salty water under pressure. At the time of the Flood the outer shell cracked down the center of what is today the Atlantic Ocean and the crack continued around the world at the ocean bottoms; there is abundant evidence for this. The Genesis Flood was initiated by this fracture opening to release the water jetting into space, breaking up into frozen balls and becoming orbiting comets. Evidently, some of these comets have since hit the Moon, Mercury and, in recent discoveries, possibly Mars. In another place he points out that on these planetary bodies the ice turned to water that left evidences of its presence by gullies, canyons etc but in the very low atmospheric pressures, this water quickly vaporized.
 
I can thoroughly recommend Dr.Brown’s rather massive though well reproduced book but particularly his scholarship. It can be purchased or downloaded at no cost at http://www.creationscience.com/
 
--o0o--


Dear Zena,
I thank you for your excellent and detailed response below. You've been very helpful and it is more interesting than I could have imagined. I will read Dr. Walter Brown’s book In the Beginning … with interest.

Paul.

I hope that puts an end to all this mockery of God!
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jedweber on May 19, 2011, 04:23:36 PM
It's nice that you were so polite to Zena. She was helpful, after all. Hopefully she won't use Google and find out where your "modest publication" ended up, because, sadly, some of the militant evolutionists here may find Dr. Brown's innovative theory unintentionally amusing and worthy of ridicule...
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Noman Peopled on May 19, 2011, 04:36:02 PM
Not to mention there is not one more drop of water on earth there wasn't the day the earth formed with water on it.
Well, I guess it's more water now, what with the occasional comet.
Of course, there might also be less, what with the occasional meteor impact or solar flare accelerating hapless water molecules beyond escape velocity (and in the "right direction").

The sheer quantities of water the bearded conjurer would have to hide up his sleeve are mindboggling and way beyond any cosmic shenanigens the Earth has been exposed to during the past few millenia. Seriously, let's say the Earth is spherical,has a diameter of 12,000km, and we cover it with 9km of water ("fathoms deep", remember?).

That's 16,298,233,882km³ (unless I screwed up). That's so high I don't even know what the English word ist. 16.3 ... what, billiards? That's a cube with 2535 km on each side.
The moon has a volume of around 21,958,000,000km³, thus the body of water needed to cover the highest mountains fathoms deep would be in the general ballpark of 75% of the moon's volume (or 1,5% of Earth's).

Any kind of fast tectonic or cosmic action involving that much reaction mass tends to leave continents cauterized.



//I'm taking too damn long for elementary math.
“Where is water found?” Earth … must head the list … other planets, moons and even interstellar space have only traces of water, or possible water.
Ugh. Right. No water at all.

Quote
These traces, instead of producing the comets, may have been caused by comets or water vapor that the “fountains of the great deep” launched into space [at the beginning of the Genesis Flood].
Earth's escape velocity is 11.186 km/s. That's not a fountain, that's a cosmic jet cutter.

Quote
However, if 50,000 comets were ejected recently [5,000 years ago] from the Earth and an “ocean” of water vapor was injected into the inner solar system, the problem disappears. Comet impacts on Mars probably created brief saltwater flows, carving the famous “erosion” channels.
50,000 streams of instantly vaporizing water with a speed of over 42,000km/h?
I'm not even sure water is stable at the resulting temperatures.

Quote
Evidently, some of these comets have since hit the Moon, Mercury and, in recent discoveries, possibly Mars.
I wonder how likely it is that even one single out of 50,000 comets shooting off in random directions hits any planet within a piddly few thousand years.

"Dr." Brown needs to get his head buried in a high school textbook.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: mram on May 19, 2011, 06:15:34 PM
So...If I'm following it right another planet had a BUNCH of water and  comet(s) or meteor(s) hit it launching ALL that water here which somehow just "grazed" the earth melting all that water which rained down on earth to cause the great flood...AND THEN magically all that water just evaporated or sank into the earth...I'm guessing what REALLY happened was all the animals on the ark got REALLY thirsty and began drinking it thus making the flood go down except for whatever was left as oceans and when those animals peed it was "kind of" salty so that made the oceans salty and the water content was just splashed off the earth by some "other" big comet that was just omitted from the bible because they just didn't want to scare people.. After all, the bible is just about happy thoughts ONLY.  :laugh:

Damned.. I should get a degree in creationist science..I'm pretty good at making shit up!  :angel:
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Anfauglir on May 20, 2011, 03:47:46 AM
About 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge .....

Wowsers.  But here's an important question: how many of those civilisations were aware of the full extent and size of the planet, at the point where those tales were told?  The Babylonians, for example.....were they aware of the existence of the Americas?  Australasia?  The Japans?  Antarctica?  Point being, when they talk of a deluge covering "the world".....how can we be sure that they are talking about a flood covering the whole planet, or just a big flood that covered most of their "world"? 

See, that's where we would look at the geological evidence to support a GLOBAL flood.  Shame there isn't any.

70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood.

How interesting!

"We asked 100 pre-industrial civilisations: what is a good way to survive on a large amount of water?  And 70 answered: on a boat." 

Ab-so-lutely incredible!

What is perhaps MORE amazing - when we relate to Christianity - is that so many people, the direct descendants of Noah and his family who spent so many months constructing a boat to such precise instructions, and then living on it for many more months.....somehow managed to "forget" that an Ark was involved, and instead speak of....something else.

I find it rather humorous that you are simultaneously saying "Noah's ark MUST have happened - everyone talks about floods" - while at the same time being more than happy that considerable numbers of people not only have no concept there was a boat involved, but also forget and corrupt the story over generations so that Yahweh's involvement is forgotten.  Indeed, the overwhelming majority of stories do not mention Yahweh and his reasons at all.

Your point seems to be "accept majority opinion....except where it ignores my preferred fable, in which case you can assume that a tiny minority are accurate." 

Well guess what?  About 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge... and about 5% (if that) mention "Yahwah".  You are saying that we should accept - without evidence - a 5% group as being correct.

Sure.  No problem.  Pending EVIDENCE, I will accept that the 5% who do NOT describe a global cataclysmic deluge as being correct.  With no more reason than you do for accepting the "Yahweh and Noah" story as being correct.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: epidemic on August 21, 2013, 07:08:48 AM
God was willing to kill most all life on earth for a fresh start.  You know it would go a long way in my belief if god killed evil people on a regular basis rather than just one fell swoop.

"Hey look they guy over there is raping a little boy.  Call the police!!!

Never mind call the corroner he just died for no apparent reason."

"Oh man there is a warlord in my town he is killing girls for going to school, we should do something about this,  dang it, forget it he's is dead"

If he was willing to kill all of humanity and all but extinguish life on earth once, you would think he could do a little better targeting and kill off bad guys.  Not run of the mill sinners, just those who make human suffering.  Maybe a three strikes and your out kinda thing to allow for some redemption.

"Did you know that mike was cheating with your steves wife?  Should we tell his wife about it?   Forget it he just died."

If I saw that doing bad thing had consequences I might think people would try harder to avoid doing such.

Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: freakygin on August 22, 2013, 09:44:12 PM
God was willing to kill most all life on earth for a fresh start.  You know it would go a long way in my belief if god killed evil people on a regular basis rather than just one fell swoop.

"Hey look they guy over there is raping a little boy.  Call the police!!!

Never mind call the corroner he just died for no apparent reason."

"Oh man there is a warlord in my town he is killing girls for going to school, we should do something about this,  dang it, forget it he's is dead"

If he was willing to kill all of humanity and all but extinguish life on earth once, you would think he could do a little better targeting and kill off bad guys.  Not run of the mill sinners, just those who make human suffering.  Maybe a three strikes and your out kinda thing to allow for some redemption.

"Did you know that mike was cheating with your steves wife?  Should we tell his wife about it?   Forget it he just died."

If I saw that doing bad thing had consequences I might think people would try harder to avoid doing such.



you missed the point!
God plan is perfect! Remember?

God flooded the earth because everyone is actually infected with T-Virus (Including the plants and animals)
and they will turn into zombies exactly when the ark is finished.
Noah and his family are the only one who's immune to T-Virus. (And the pairs or animals also immune too)
You can forget about the plants, they will always still be alive and cleaned from the virus after being submerged for months

God didn't kill the guy who raped that little boy because god knows,
30 years later, that guy will realize his mistake and turn into a good priest in a church with a lot of choir boys.

God let the warlord kill those girls because god knows,
20 years later those girls will turn into prostitute and abusive mother.

God will never kill Mike, because god knows Steve is going to die in an accident 10 years later.
And his wife surely needs Mike.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: epidemic on September 05, 2013, 12:19:58 PM
you missed the point!
God plan is perfect! Remember?

God flooded the earth because everyone is actually infected with T-Virus (Including the plants and animals)
and they will turn into zombies exactly when the ark is finished.
Noah and his family are the only one who's immune to T-Virus. (And the pairs or animals also immune too)
You can forget about the plants, they will always still be alive and cleaned from the virus after being submerged for months

God didn't kill the guy who raped that little boy because god knows,
30 years later, that guy will realize his mistake and turn into a good priest in a church with a lot of choir boys.

God let the warlord kill those girls because god knows,
20 years later those girls will turn into prostitute and abusive mother.

God will never kill Mike, because god knows Steve is going to die in an accident 10 years later.
And his wife surely needs Mike.

You got me there.   Gods plan is perfect any percieved imperfections are just a byproduct of my lack of understanding.   

Perhaps god could enlighten me! 

BTW I am sure god could come up with a few examples of people who would not amount to anything and not be needed who when they sinned they could simply explode.




Hey on the noahs ark thing did any theist every try to answer how 8 people could feed and clean up the waste from millions of creatures.  I would think that it would be almost a full time job just to clean up and feed an 2 elephants and a couple of the big cat specises.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: nogodsforme on September 05, 2013, 06:31:15 PM
Not to mention keeping said elephants and cat species away from each other when they got bored on day 37. I know I don't ever want to find myself standing between a pissed off elephant and a hungry lion.  :o
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: freakygin on September 05, 2013, 08:21:47 PM
Hey on the noahs ark thing did any theist every try to answer how 8 people could feed and clean up the waste from millions of creatures.  I would think that it would be almost a full time job just to clean up and feed an 2 elephants and a couple of the big cat specises.

The answer is coke, a LOT of coke and weed to keep them sedated

How else do you think marijuana, poppy and coke still exist today?
Noah brought tons of them in the ark.
He need to get high too...
Beside, it's for medical purpose, so, it's legal..
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: epidemic on September 06, 2013, 07:35:05 AM
Hey on the noahs ark thing did any theist every try to answer how 8 people could feed and clean up the waste from millions of creatures.  I would think that it would be almost a full time job just to clean up and feed an 2 elephants and a couple of the big cat specises.

The answer is coke, a LOT of coke and weed to keep them sedated

How else do you think marijuana, poppy and coke still exist today?
Noah brought tons of them in the ark.
He need to get high too...
Beside, it's for medical purpose, so, it's legal..

hey I think you may have stumbled on another problem.  I don't recall noah (Johnny Appleseed) traveling to south america and planting the unique seeds for the rain forest.  How long do you think it would take for seeds to naturally dispurse their way around the world and deposit themselves in south america from the middle east, assuming that they could actually proliferate in a natural progression through all the environments in between?  by bird, by wind, by sea, by runners and by normal seed casting. 

If it was Noah and his progeny why did he bring all the fricking poison ivy to America (dick).  I wonder how big would a bag of seeds and plant cutting would one need to account for all the plant life on earth.  I wager that it would be a heck of a large fleet of Big rigs to plant enough seeds to have them proliferate from locations they were planted to current plant life density.  Some plants are pretty difficult to cultivate this guy must have had one hell of a green thumb not to mention frequent flier miles.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: neopagan on September 06, 2013, 09:22:19 AM
Why do you think the first thing he did after he got off that boat was pile on a major drunk and get nekkid? 
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: nogodsforme on September 06, 2013, 04:46:59 PM
Indigenous (locally adapted varieties, like temperate palm trees and salt water mangroves) and endemic (only found in one place, like Komodos and kangaroos) species of both plants and animals are the biggest and most obvious pieces of evidence against Noah's Ark being real.

Aside from all the other big and obvious pieces of evidence, of course. &)
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Plauiaa7 on September 25, 2013, 11:33:18 PM
t was very interesting and I follow.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: epidemic on November 05, 2013, 11:13:40 AM
On D-Day,  when the water began to rise why did the people who observed the construction of the ark over nearly a century not storm it and climb on board?

I would think that hundreds or perhaps thousands of people all trying to gain access to your ship as the water is rising would have been a relatively simple task.  With only 8 people defending a couple of dozen bronze or stone axes and a dozen motivated people could have gained access in 30 minutes.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: nogodsforme on November 05, 2013, 04:21:34 PM
^^^See there, you with all that atheist logic.  &)

Clearly, god blinded the eyes of the sinners so they could not find the ark. And blocked their sense of smell so they would not notice all the animals. And closed their ears. And......

Of course the bible does not say that, but it must be so.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: jdawg70 on November 05, 2013, 04:28:42 PM
^^^See there, you with all that atheist logic.  &)

Clearly, god blinded the eyes of the sinners so they could not find the ark. And blocked their sense of smell so they would not notice all the animals. And closed their ears. And......
Wrong.

It was demons.  There's a member on this board who will verify this for you.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: median on November 05, 2013, 05:23:36 PM
Depending on how you read it, between Yahweh deciding to flood the world, and actually doing it, there were between 7 days and 100 years.  Probably lots more than 7: that was the time Noah had to load the ark itself, so construction would've begun a while before that.  A few months to a year, let's say, between Yahweh deciding "kill everything" and actually doing it.  Let's call it the time between P-day (when he made the plan) and D-Day (when he started the rains).

Here's the point: it presumes that Yahweh knew on P-Day that everyone who would be alive on P-Day (except Noah et al) would be evil and deserved to die.  It's that, I think, that gives the most issues with free will....and god's benevolence.

On free will.....once P-day had passed, nobody could make any other choice than to be bad, without cauding god to explode in a paradox.  There is even, perhaps, an argument to say that once god made his mind up, he CAUSED everyone to head towards evil from that point onwards.  The omniscience vs. free will argument comes up a lot, but its this period that hihglights it most strongly, I think.  Equally, once god decided they would be saved.....did Noah and crew have the free will to be able to sin?

On benevolence......But if we assume that men COULD still make a free choice....then does that not call god's benevolence into question?  If it were still possible for a sinner to be redeemed, then does not P-day make him evil himself?  In the gap between P-day and D-day, a man with free will could have turned to good (perhaps swayed by Noah's example).  But it was clear on P-Day that god had decided to save only Noah and his family - so everyone else, from that day on, was stuffed.  No matter how good they bacame in those few weeks and months, they were already doomed.

So to me, that period of time, above any other part of the Bible, highlights how horrific Yahweh actually is - he either damns people be setting the future, or damns people by not caring about their actions.

My old "Christian" apologist self is kicking in here and I wanted to respond (shortly) in a similar fashion of how I might have responded years ago:

QUOTING MYSELF:
Quote
"God does not operate in a finite way. He works with our free choices and plans things according to the future he can already see (with some intervention when necessary). He already knew people would not repent and he already knew Noah and his family were the only righteous ones left. Due to his divine plan, which we Christians trust and obey, he decided to destroy the creation he owned b/c of their wickedness and he did it based upon their choices that he foreknew - so that he could continue his plan of sending Jesus to die for us and paving the way for redemption to all who believe and follow him.

So looking at the problem in a linear fashion (from our limited finite human understanding) is not going to help with anything. You have hardened your heart to the word of God and and until you deal with that first you won't be able to see any of God's plan and how it makes sense. His ways are not our ways. He is infinite! And we can't always understand the things he does. Logic and reason can only take us so far, then we must walk by faith and trust that he is holy and his plan is good (because he is the standard of what is good)."

Yes, I can still concoct these really bad rationalizations even to this day (aka - I can still wear the apologist hat!). Crazy huh?
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Anfauglir on November 06, 2013, 04:35:19 AM
QUOTING MYSELF:
Quote
"God does not operate in a finite way. He works with our free choices and plans things according to the future he can already see (with some intervention when necessary). He already knew people would not repent and he already knew Noah and his family were the only righteous ones left....

Trouble is (that crazy atheist logic again!), if Yahweh CAN see the future with that precision, then he knew before he even created Adam how THAT little scenario would play out.  If you know in advance that creating a certain environment will lead to disaster, the rational thing to do is to create it differently.

Surely it isn't too hard for a god to consider and "foretell" the future for each possible "startup" condition?  And then to select the startup that actually gives a good result?  We have to assume therefore that either Yahweh deliberately chose a start-up condition that would lead to sub-optimal results (which is dumb), or accept that the world Yahweh created is the best he could do......but still massively flawed.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: epidemic on November 06, 2013, 01:13:03 PM
questioning the intelligence of biblical figures seems to be a no brainer.

The devil wittnessed the creation of himself and the universe (he knows he can't take on god )  yet he challenges god.

Noah's children just wittness the entire world flooded killing every last human and animal not on the ark.   Decide just after the ark comes to rest on mount whatever, decide to defy god and try to sleep with god.

Jesus, who knows everything god knows says ("god why have you forsaken me.")  Umm m because he is following the plan that you set up and you knew about since you were born.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: median on November 06, 2013, 03:12:19 PM

Trouble is (that crazy atheist logic again!), if Yahweh CAN see the future with that precision, then he knew before he even created Adam how THAT little scenario would play out.  If you know in advance that creating a certain environment will lead to disaster, the rational thing to do is to create it differently.

Surely it isn't too hard for a god to consider and "foretell" the future for each possible "startup" condition?  And then to select the startup that actually gives a good result?  We have to assume therefore that either Yahweh deliberately chose a start-up condition that would lead to sub-optimal results (which is dumb), or accept that the world Yahweh created is the best he could do......but still massively flawed.

MY OLD SELF AGAIN! lol...

Quote
But see, God knows everything there is to know and since he is the standard of what is good (and we are not) it doesn't really matter if we think something is bad, intolerable, heinous, or appalling. God has his reasons for doing things and we (in our limited finite knowledge) must trust that his word is good and true. We have the Holy Spirit which guides us into all truth and we know that God works all things together for that which is ultimately good. It may look bad to us but that does not mean that it is truly bad or wrong. We do not lean on our own worldly understanding. If God decides to allow certain negative things to happen, then he had a bigger purpose and a bigger plan. It doesn't matter whether or not our fallen/carnal selves don't like it. We are not in a position to judge God! Job tried that and he failed b/c God is the King of Kings (Alpha and Omega) and we must obey him and his righteous plan. Worship Jesus and you will see God is good in all things!

HA! Listening to my 'old self' type that is insane! I can't believe I actually used to believe that load of bull.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: Anfauglir on November 07, 2013, 02:53:58 AM
MY OLD SELF AGAIN! lol...

Quote
But see, God knows everything there is to know and since he is the standard of what is good (and we are not) it doesn't really matter if we think something is bad, intolerable, heinous, or appalling. God has his reasons for doing things and we (in our limited finite knowledge) must trust that his word is good and true. We have the Holy Spirit which guides us into all truth and we know that God works all things together for that which is ultimately good. It may look bad to us but that does not mean that it is truly bad or wrong. We do not lean on our own worldly understanding. If God decides to allow certain negative things to happen, then he had a bigger purpose and a bigger plan. It doesn't matter whether or not our fallen/carnal selves don't like it. We are not in a position to judge God! Job tried that and he failed b/c God is the King of Kings (Alpha and Omega) and we must obey him and his righteous plan. Worship Jesus and you will see God is good in all things!

HA! Listening to my 'old self' type that is insane! I can't believe I actually used to believe that load of bull.

Bizarre isn't it?

I still don't even see the logic working, because what it therefore HAS to mean is that the "fall" in the garden, the serpent's intervention, and the descent of mankind into sin were all part of Yahweh's preordained plan.  Which means he is judging us for something that he deliberately set up for us to fail!

Anyhoo.....what a shame no current believers feel able to jump in!
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: nogodsforme on November 07, 2013, 11:35:27 AM
That was one of the first chinks in the JW armor for me as a kid. The whole Eden setup--followed by the Noah's Ark fiasco. It was so unfair and so wrong that I could not get my mind around it. How the  "Jehovah, our kind, heavenly father" image fit in with a guy so incompetent and so uncaring-- like Hitler's plans executed by Jerry Lewis, but dressed up like Captain Kangaroo. Is that psycho or what?

He made the two people, put the snake in the garden with the tree and sat back and watched it all happen--knowing how it would all turn out. And then he punished everyone for all time! Bwahahahah!

The children--if there were even any children on the earth at that time drowned painlessly, or maybe there were no kids killed, because of course, god would never kill innocent children, as Christians have come here and told us. Although god does kill children every day. But they go straight to heaven so it's all good. And god gave us life so he can take it away any time he wants to. But he doesn't kill anyone. It is our own sin that kills. If you would stop hardening your heart you would understand how much god loves you. [More crazy talk that would be rejected out of hand it it came from any other religion.]

But he didn't really want to be such a complete a$$hole,  so he had his backup plan ready, too! He would later send his son to save everyone, but only after destroying everything in the flood. Again, a set up. Because god knew what would happen and made it happen anyway. And his son would not really be able to save everyone, only the tiny percent of the population who manage to hear and believe this incomprehensible story. &)

It makes me mad-- the idea that there are kids today who are just like I was, thinking they are horrible people, doomed because of Eve's screw-up, and confused about how someone can create them, love them and then drown them. For something that they never did! Nobody should be teaching children sh!t like that. I wish I could go into every Sunday school in the US and yell, "It's not true! It's just a fairy tale like Jack in the beanstalk!"

And, no, just talking about it does not mean that I think any of it is real. It gets tiring being surrounded by other people who seem to think it is real....[1]
 1. "You atheists talk about god so much, and are so angry about it all, you must really secretly believe in him..." No.
Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: ParkingPlaces on November 07, 2013, 12:15:27 PM
It makes me mad-- the idea that there are kids today who are just like I was, thinking they are horrible people, doomed because of Eve's screw-up, and confused about how someone can create them, love them and then drown them. For something that they never did! Nobody should be teaching children sh!t like that. I wish I could go into every Sunday school in the US and yell, "It's not true! It's just a fairy tale like Jack in the beanstalk!"

Not true! At least Jack and the Beanstock had moral lessons. Like listen to your mother and don't get greedy.  :)

Title: Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
Post by: median on November 07, 2013, 01:59:30 PM

Bizarre isn't it?

I still don't even see the logic working, because what it therefore HAS to mean is that the "fall" in the garden, the serpent's intervention, and the descent of mankind into sin were all part of Yahweh's preordained plan.  Which means he is judging us for something that he deliberately set up for us to fail!

Anyhoo.....what a shame no current believers feel able to jump in!

Years ago I knew a Christian guy who was struggling with homosexuality. He was living in LA doing extra work for movies (and taking male hookers at night) but he wanted to go back to bible 'school' and 'be healed' of his homo-erotic desires. By that time I was already a non-Christian (basically a deist) and he used to attempt to convert me back to the faith. During that time we actually discussed this issue (and related subjects pertaining to 'predestination'). The most fascinating (and disgusting) part of those discussions was that this man was willing to take his theology to the logical conclusion that God is just a big asshole in the sky who runs everything (basically a big mafia boss). This person (call him Bob) admitted that, "Yes, God is an asshole but I have to obey him otherwise I'm doomed. So, I will do what he says."

I was stunned. It was absolutely FLOORING to hear him admit that with a straight face and a straight tone of voice. That he could continue in his self-hatred, ignorance, and that amount of gullibility was astonishing. The cognitive dissonance couldn't get anymore clear. You have a professing Christian who has come to the conclusion that "God is good" yet simultaneously believes that "God is an asshole". The way in which this Christian was able to compartmentalize those two contrary beliefs is baffling. And yet, deep down I think all Christians ultimately practice this kind of self-deception. They intellectually know that this alleged God cannot be truly good yet continue to live by it out of fear that they might be wrong (and henceforth be damned to hell).

[Enter the great Robert Ingersoll for the win!] Here's a paraphrase.

By what standard do Christians judge that God is 'good'? The bible. And by what standard do Christians judge that God is an asshole mafia boss? The bible. So then, basically, it's "good" to be an asshole, monstrous, genocidal, homicidal, slave owner? The double standard is beyond comprehension, and yet this is what Christians are inadvertently endorsing. SO SAD!

This is why I choose to be what Dr. Peter Boghossian calls a Street Epistemologist.[1]
 1. http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Creating-Atheists-Peter-Boghossian/dp/1939578094