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Main Discussion Zone => Biblical Contradictions => Topic started by: Hatter23 on May 12, 2011, 03:44:40 PM

Title: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 12, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz.  By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Christians. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 12:56:02 PM
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 02:15:34 PM
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 17, 2011, 02:19:30 PM
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

I do love your nonsense, Voz.  You are an excellent example of the classic sycophantic Christian.  You need to make up any excuse you can to excuse your imaginary god, including applauding the harm done to a girl by this being's "will".  You do more for making people realize that there is no god than any atheist does with your attempts to claim that a 4 year old girl deserves to be harmed and damned. 

I'd almost think you were a particularly nasty person intentionally trying to make Christians look bad but I can unfortunately be pretty sure that you are serious since so many of you spew such garbage.  Your self-worth is so fragile that rather than admit that you are wrong about your belief in this nonsense, that you will go out of your way to make such vile claims.   
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 02:34:41 PM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

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According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?
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According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Persephone on May 17, 2011, 02:37:13 PM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology.
Must I be respectful of my neighbor's belief that fairies live in his garden?

I respect your right to believe as you wish. I am under no obligation, however, to respect beliefs that have no basis in reality.

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Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).
Can you please provide links?

I'd really love to read them. Seriously.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 02:47:58 PM
Wow, I'm the one who is ignorant? You people see what u want to see and I'm trying to tell you the Truth.
How about I'll give u a link to another discussion and then you'll let me know what you think:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7509431/
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 17, 2011, 02:48:55 PM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).
Sorry, until you provide evidence your claims are any more valid than myths, they remain myths.  And such pathetic repetition of lies again.  no, Josephus doesn't write about Jesus (it's a forgery, more lies for Christ), either does Justus, etc.  They speak of Christians but not JC. Again, by your claims, this would mean that any mention of any believes of any religion makes that religion just as true as yours.  Congratulations! 

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God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?
Again, where is this evidence that you claim exists but can't produce?
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Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.
Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   



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If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?
Oh, I do feel sorry for anyone who knows you in real life.  Yes, dear, it does mean that you don't love them or even have the slightest shred of human decency.  But again, you sure do a great job in making horrible claims in your desperation to claim your god exists. 
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Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.
Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Dante on May 17, 2011, 02:52:04 PM
Wow, I'm the one who is ignorant? You people see what u want to see

We want to see evidence. What is your difficulty in understanding that?


and I'm trying to tell you the Truth.

The truth as you believe it, but have no evidence for. Yes, you are ignorant.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:11:21 PM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology.


Request denied, unless you do NOT call any other belief a mythology. That includes the Greeks, the Roman, The Wiccan, Those that believed their anscestor spirits reside in trees, Those that practice Voodoo. Those the believe the earth is flat, etc. Unless you have never...ever called anything a myth....and I believe you have....then you do not have any room so say that Christianity cannot be called a myth.


 Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Josephus is a forgery, and Justus talks about Christians...not Christ. Not a proven historical figure.


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According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?

WHat is this evidence, so far I do not see it. If I can easily help someone from being incinerated and I don't...I loose all claims on love...or being accounted for as a moral being.




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According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:14:09 PM
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Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   

You seem to disprove all of the Bible, yet you read it and try to pretend that want to know the truth. Even if I try to explain to u why things are the way they are now you wouldn't accept it because you're ignorant.

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Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses.
I am not ignorant of the Bible. I know what John 3:16 says, "..so that whoever believes in Jesus, should not perish, but have eternal life." What I meant to say was who are you to state that she went to hell? Maybe she didn't ! You're only judging her eternal state from outside facts. Do u know what she believed in when she died? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:16:19 PM
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Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   

You seem to disprove all of the Bible

Good, we are in agreement.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:17:40 PM
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Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

Stop attacking my intelligence and debate on the topic. All I am saying is that you don't know her state of mind when she died, she could've changed her beliefs and seen God in all of this, while you only see negative.

You seem so concerned about the girl going to hell. Do you really believe in hell?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 17, 2011, 03:21:14 PM
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Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   
You seem to disprove all of the Bible, yet you read it and try to pretend that want to know the truth. Even if I try to explain to u why things are the way they are now you wouldn't accept it because you're ignorant.
  Please do show how I'm "ignorant".  You are stuck wiht your bible that demonstrates your claims are wrong.  I do enjoy pointing that out.  So, what is it, Voz, is free will stopping God?  If so, and if you believe that yoru god exists and gave manna to the Israelites, explain how that didn't abrogate the Israelites free will to die of starvation in a desert.  I know the truth, Voz.  Your stories are just that, stories told to try to explain the world by ignorant agrarians which fail miserably in the real world where we have science to do that.  Science that you use daily as long as its convenient and attack when it dares to say that your myths are pathetically wrong.

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Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses.
I am not ignorant of the Bible. I know what John 3:16 says, "..so that whoever believes in Jesus, should not perish, but have eternal life." What I meant to say was who are you to state that she went to hell? Maybe she didn't ! You're only judging her eternal state from outside facts. Do u know what she believed in when she died? I don't think so.
[/quote]
Evidently you are if you ask where it says people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell.  Hilarious that you can't even bring yourself to show the whole passage
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16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp. 

EDIT:  I don't believe in hell.  I find the concept vile and essentially stupid for a supposed omnipotent being.  I do find it sickening that such sycophants such as yourself need to get your jollies over such a concept because you seem to be so afraid of being shown wrong that you have to invent the ultimate punishement to make yourselves feel better. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Dante on May 17, 2011, 03:21:47 PM
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Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

Stop attacking my intelligence and debate on the topic. All I am saying is that you don't know her state of mind when she died, she could've changed her beliefs and seen God in all of this, while you only see negative.

And neither do you. But, you believe if she didn't find your god, she would burn in hell for all eternity, correct?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:29:10 PM
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And neither do you. But, you believe if she didn't find your god, she would burn in hell for all eternity, correct?

Yes I believe what the Bible says. Mind you, I didn't invent the Bible, it has existed for more than 2000 years, written by 40 different authors.

And clearly, you don't believe in the Bible. So why are so concerned about her? She's dead, and so will we be dead at some point or another.

If hell or heaven doesn't exist, then God doesn't exist, and if God doesn't exist than there is no evil or good, it's just a philosophy. It's all about how perceive the world isn't it?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:29:50 PM
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Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

Stop attacking my intelligence and debate on the topic. All I am saying is that you don't know her state of mind when she died, she could've changed her beliefs and seen God in all of this, while you only see negative.

You seem so concerned about the girl going to hell. Do you really believe in hell?


You are correct, I shouldn't have stated it that way

However, please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp. 

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:30:37 PM
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Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   
You seem to disprove all of the Bible, yet you read it and try to pretend that want to know the truth. Even if I try to explain to u why things are the way they are now you wouldn't accept it because you're ignorant.
  Please do show how I'm "ignorant".  You are stuck wiht your bible that demonstrates your claims are wrong.  I do enjoy pointing that out.  So, what is it, Voz, is free will stopping God?  If so, and if you believe that yoru god exists and gave manna to the Israelites, explain how that didn't abrogate the Israelites free will to die of starvation in a desert.  I know the truth, Voz.  Your stories are just that, stories told to try to explain the world by ignorant agrarians which fail miserably in the real world where we have science to do that.  Science that you use daily as long as its convenient and attack when it dares to say that your myths are pathetically wrong.

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Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses.
I am not ignorant of the Bible. I know what John 3:16 says, "..so that whoever believes in Jesus, should not perish, but have eternal life." What I meant to say was who are you to state that she went to hell? Maybe she didn't ! You're only judging her eternal state from outside facts. Do u know what she believed in when she died? I don't think so.
Evidently you are if you ask where it says people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell.  Hilarious that you can't even bring yourself to show the whole passage
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16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp. 

EDIT:  I don't believe in hell.  I find the concept vile and essentially stupid for a supposed omnipotent being.  I do find it sickening that such sycophants such as yourself need to get your jollies over such a concept because you seem to be so afraid of being shown wrong that you have to invent the ultimate punishement to make yourselves feel better.
[/quote]

Thank you for posting the whole verse. I just thought that focusing on the point on where it talks about hell would be more relevant, but hey thanks for posting from the BIBLE!
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:33:11 PM
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And neither do you. But, you believe if she didn't find your god, she would burn in hell for all eternity, correct?

Yes I believe what the Bible says. Mind you, I didn't invent the Bible, it has existed for more than 2000 years, written by 40 different authors.

And clearly, you don't believe in the Bible. So why are so concerned about her? She's dead, and so will we be dead at some point or another.

If hell or heaven doesn't exist, then God doesn't exist, and if God doesn't exist than there is no evil or good, it's just a philosophy. It's all about how perceive the world isn't it?


Because unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

 

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:34:20 PM
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You are correct, I shouldn't have stated it that way

However, please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp.

Apology accepted. A Jewish girl could've prayed to God and He heard her prayer and taken her to heaven. Simple as that. If she died physically, doesn't mean God didn't hear her. It was His ruling for her to die.

Like I said before, do u know absolutely 100% of this universe? If you did, then I would give you some credibility.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:35:52 PM
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You are correct, I shouldn't have stated it that way

However, please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp.

Apology accepted. A Jewish girl could've prayed to God and He heard her prayer and taken her to heaven. Simple as that. If she died physically, doesn't mean God didn't hear her. It was His ruling for her to die.

Like I said before, do u know absolutely 100% of this universe? If you did, then I would give you some credibility.

Appeal to ignorance, it doesn't work because it is a fallacy. Unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 17, 2011, 03:37:36 PM
Yes I believe what the Bible says. Mind you, I didn't invent the Bible, it has existed for more than 2000 years, written by 40 different authors.
ah, this is classic.  Oh, it's not my fault that I believe in such horrors, I'm just following orders.   

Ooh, I posted from the Bible.  Let me guess, that makes it true ;D  Oh my so let me post the book of the dead too
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Homage to you, O ye gods of the Dekans in Anu, and to you, O ye Hememet-spirits in Kher Aha, and to thee, O Unti, who art the most glorious of all the gods who are hidden in Anu, O grant thou unto me a path whereover I may pass in peace, for I am just and true; I have not spoken falsehood wittingly, nor have I done aught with deceit.

what's even more hilarious that you say that
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Thank you for posting the whole verse. I just thought that focusing on the point on where it talks about hell would be more relevant, but hey thanks for posting from the BIBLE!
  when what you posted, just John 3:16 doesn't even mention hell at all.  The verses I posted did that.   :laugh:  Nice try though.  Rather amusing to see even more lies. 



Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 17, 2011, 03:39:17 PM
Apology accepted. A Jewish girl could've prayed to God and He heard her prayer and taken her to heaven. Simple as that. If she died physically, doesn't mean God didn't hear her. It was His ruling for her to die.

Like I said before, do u know absolutely 100% of this universe? If you did, then I would give you some credibility.

oh and the bible says explictly that it doesn't work this way. You know, in those verses from John 3 we've been discussing?  Nice try again to make up more nonsense on your own. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:39:42 PM
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Because unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

I am glad that you came to that conclusion. Over all of the world there is a war going on. Not a war over money, not a war of who has more authority, but a war over minds of people.

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

Don't u think that if there was nothing there, this wouldn't exist? After all, no one is going to argue over pink elephant for over 2000 years? Right?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:41:39 PM

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oh and the bible says explictly that it doesn't work this way. You know, in those verses from John 3 we've been discussing?  Nice try again to make up more nonsense on your own.

The Bible says that, "..WHOEVER believes in Jesus Christ, will have eternal life." What do u understand a person must do to get saved quoting from John 3:16?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Dante on May 17, 2011, 03:42:39 PM

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

So you're a moronmuslim?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:43:35 PM

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

So you're a moronmuslim?

Or A Hindu?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:45:45 PM
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Because unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

I am glad that you came to that conclusion. Over all of the world there is a war going on. Not a war over money, not a war of who has more authority, but a war over minds of people.

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

Don't u think that if there was nothing there, this wouldn't exist? After all, no one is going to argue over pink elephant for over 2000 years? Right?


So what about the Wars over various non-Christian deities over the millenia...by your own mindset, they were wars over a pink elephant. You are still relying on appeals to ignorance, false dichotomies, and ignoring the counter-evidence.

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:46:50 PM
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So you're a moronmuslim?

Sorry, I don't feel bad because someone can't type. And I'm not Muslim, I believe in Jesus, Son of God.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:48:23 PM
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So you're a moronmuslim?

Sorry, I don't feel bad because someone can't type. And I'm not Muslim, I believe in Jesus, Son of God.

He was making a refence as to a Muslim could have used the exact same statement to support his religion.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Dante on May 17, 2011, 03:48:31 PM

And clearly, you don't believe in the Bible. So why are so concerned about her? She's dead, and so will we be dead at some point or another.

I'm not concerned about her. She would be dead, and in eternal oblivion. I'm concerned about you. Mostly for the reasons that Hatter stated above, but also on a personal level. I'm concerned about you, v. It pains me to see you not using your evolved brain for some of the simplest of human tasks.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:49:07 PM
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So what about the Wars over various non-Christian deities over the millenia...by your own mindset, they were wars over a pink elephant. You are still relying on appeals to ignorance, false dichotomies, and ignoring the counter-evidence.

No, i do not. You're taking words out of my mouth and creating your own meaning. Other religions exist because people try to perverse the truth. Or they try to make sense of why are they here, on Earth.

Only one truth exists. There is hell and heaven. You choose where to spend your eternity.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Persephone on May 17, 2011, 03:51:09 PM
Only one truth exists. There is hell and heaven. You choose where to spend your eternity.

You're going to sleep so much better tonight because you warned us, aren't you? Congratulate yourself on telling us that it's our choice and we're choosing hell if we remain atheists, right?

I don't even know where to start with you. You're not worth my time so I'll let them rest of them here deal with you.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:52:28 PM
Quote
He was making a refence as to a Muslim could have used the exact same statement to support his religion.

Don't try to cover up the fact. He typed the word before "Muslim"  deliberately to insult me. Muslims believe in their own God, Allah. Shall we discuss Islam also? I see that you're very interested in many religions.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:53:30 PM
Quote
So what about the Wars over various non-Christian deities over the millenia...by your own mindset, they were wars over a pink elephant. You are still relying on appeals to ignorance, false dichotomies, and ignoring the counter-evidence.

No, i do not. You're taking words out of my mouth and creating your own meaning. Other religions exist because people try to perverse the truth. Or they try to make sense of why are they here, on Earth.

Only one truth exists. There is hell and heaven. You choose where to spend your eternity.

Ahh, and now we get down to it. The essence of your argument. You think your realigion is real because you are afraid.

I didn't put words in you mouth, I just used the very words you stated and put them in something other than your false dichotomy. Since you state people couldn't be fighting over a non-thing(a pink elephant) therefore said thing they are fighting over must be real. I used your own reasoning and applied it to something other than the limited paradigm you are thinking in.



Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Dante on May 17, 2011, 03:54:09 PM
Quote
So what about the Wars over various non-Christian deities over the millenia...by your own mindset, they were wars over a pink elephant. You are still relying on appeals to ignorance, false dichotomies, and ignoring the counter-evidence.

No, i do not. You're taking words out of my mouth and creating your own meaning. Other religions exist because people try to perverse the truth. Or they try to make sense of why are they here, on Earth.

Only one truth exists. There is hell and heaven. You choose where to spend your eternity.

Bzzzt. Wrong. Since you believe your god is all knowing, and created me, he MUST have created me KNOWING I wouldn't believe in his fairly tale.

Loving god my ass.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:55:06 PM
Quote
I'm not concerned about her. She would be dead, and in eternal oblivion. I'm concerned about you. Mostly for the reasons that Hatter stated above, but also on a personal level. I'm concerned about you, v. It pains me to see you not using your evolved brain for some of the simplest of human tasks.

Thank you for being concerned about me. I value that you're being honest and admit that it bothers you on a personal level. At some time I was also wondering what happens to those people. Not anymore, Let God be God, He knows what happens to them.

Your only concern is where are you going to spend eternity.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Dante on May 17, 2011, 03:55:36 PM
Quote
He was making a refence as to a Muslim could have used the exact same statement to support his religion.

Don't try to cover up the fact. He typed the word before "Muslim"  deliberately to insult me. Muslims believe in their own God, Allah. Shall we discuss Islam also? I see that you're very interested in many religions.

No, I typed "moron" to insult you. Damn, you're dense.

Edit: Oops, my bad. Still, the 2nd sentence stands.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 03:55:51 PM
Quote
He was making a refence as to a Muslim could have used the exact same statement to support his religion.

Don't try to cover up the fact. He typed the word before "Muslim"  deliberately to insult me. Muslims believe in their own God, Allah. Shall we discuss Islam also? I see that you're very interested in many religions.

Yes, and despite the insult, the reasoning still stands. If I said "Hey you fucking moron, 2 +2 equals 4"  The insult would in no way render that statement incorrect.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: IAmFirst on May 17, 2011, 03:57:34 PM

Only one truth exists. There is hell and heaven. You choose where to spend your eternity.

Vozilo, do you really think an all loving, all knowing god is a nice god who is willing to reward murderers and rapists who BELIEVE in him with eternal happiness, while charitable people like me and others on this board who DO NOT believe in him should burn for all eternity?

To make a point, I have never even heard of a human that deserves to be judged by Yahweh-- the most morally inferior being ever created. No one even CAN burn forever, unless your loving god makes it so.

To make another point, I hope you don't burn in any aspect of life or afterlife. Do you hope that I burn forever just because I think Yahweh is an asshole and his illiterate son was anything but holy?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 03:58:20 PM
Quote
Yes, and despite the insult, the reasoning still stands. If I said "Hey you fucking moron, 2 +2 equals 4"  The insult would in no way render that statement incorrect.

Instead of having a logical conversation you guys start using foul language. How not nice. All I got to say is that I'm not offended by any of that.

Stay cool, we'll talk later. I'll let u cool off a bit.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 04:01:10 PM

Your only concern is where are you going to spend eternity.

Appeals to negative consequences do nothing to support the validity of your argument. It is called a fallacy for a reason. When those negative consequences are from a measurable and real derivitive from the question at hand, that does apply.

To give you an example:

Should we build this dam? If one argues that the negative consequence is that it will anger the God...that is an invalid appeal to negative consequences. If it is, It will kill off the nesting area for the bee that pollinate our crops, that is a valid appeal to negative consequences
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Asmoday on May 17, 2011, 04:02:30 PM
Muslims believe in their own God, Allah.
You don't know much about Islam, do you?

According to them, you are believing in Allah, too. Albeit in a twisted version of the true belief. According to the quran Jesus did actually exist. But he was not the son of God. Instead he was the last prophet before Mohammed came.

Quote
I see that you're very interested in many religions.
Atheists are interested in many religions because the adherents of said religions are very busy to transform this planet into a living hell.

Atheists would be very interested in the myth of the Easter Bunny, if there were people running around that work on making the rules of the Easter Bunny cult become the rules of all other people by law and who are ready and willing to harm, hurt and even kill others for not sharing their belief in the Easter Bunny.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2011, 04:04:10 PM
Quote
Yes, and despite the insult, the reasoning still stands. If I said "Hey you fucking moron, 2 +2 equals 4"  The insult would in no way render that statement incorrect.

Instead of having a logical conversation you guys start using foul language. How not nice. All I got to say is that I'm not offended by any of that.

Stay cool, we'll talk later. I'll let u cool off a bit.

So you don't comprehend why the insult does not render the statement 2 + 2 equals 4, invalid? In order to be logical, you need to divorce the emotional impact of the statement from the fact.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: IAmFirst on May 17, 2011, 04:05:21 PM
Quote
Yes, and despite the insult, the reasoning still stands. If I said "Hey you fucking moron, 2 +2 equals 4"  The insult would in no way render that statement incorrect.

Instead of having a logical conversation you guys start using foul language. How not nice. All I got to say is that I'm not offended by any of that.

Stay cool, we'll talk later. I'll let u cool off a bit.

The insults come and go, Voz (just like in life), but we ARE having a logical conversation, you OTOH, are just sticking to words others have told you without ever questioning them or researching them. That's what "logic" is.

Tell me how Muslims are wrong and you are right.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Historicity on May 17, 2011, 05:02:18 PM
Wow, I'm the one who is ignorant? You people see what u want to see and I'm trying to tell you the Truth.
How about I'll give u a link to another discussion and then you'll let me know what you think:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7509431/
I did, thank you.  The title of the thread was "HISTORIANS AT THE TIME OF JESUS".

Way down on the page someone cited Flavius Josephus, Tacitus and Julius Africanus.

In the quote from the work of Flavius Josephus the writer says he believed Jesus was the Messiah but Josephus remained a Pharisee -- in modern terms an Orthodox Jew.  Josephus' writing was about 95 AD.  He was born about 37 AD in Israel. Early Christian writers looking for authorities to cite in support of their belief never cite him.  Eusebius is the first, around 324 AD.  Eusebius praised lying to indoctrinate the lower classes as a virtue taught by Plato who learned it from Moses.


Tacitus' writing was about 115 AD.  He was writing about Nero's persecution of the group called the Christians.  He does not say he researched anything about Jesus himself and has apparently taken the claim on face value.  He also says the Christians deserved what they were getting because of their "odium humani" which would mean "hatred of the human race" or "hatred of everything human and decent".  If you want to take him as someone with authentic knowledge of the Christians from sound research then take that, too. He was born about 60 AD.

Suetonius was writing about 120 AD.  He says there was trouble in the Jewish community instigated by Crestus. (Greek was dialectic at a level hard to believe compared to modern languages.  Some cities rejected the kh sound.  Crestos is a possible dialectic variant of Khristos or just a mishearing.)   From that he seems to think that this Crestus was alive.  Clearly he is relating hearsay.  He was born about 70 AD.

None of these were literally "HISTORIANS AT THE TIME OF JESUS".

Julius Africanus wrote around 220 AD.  Why did the poster even mention him?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 17, 2011, 05:15:30 PM
 :police:

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Graybeard on May 17, 2011, 05:22:09 PM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).
As you say, none saw him alive and the Josephus passage you are thinking of is a forgery added much later by an over-excitable Christian.

Quote
Consider the following list. These are the historians and writers who DID live within Christ's alleged lifetime or within a hundred years of it, after the time:
 Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias
Yet, aside from two FORGED passages in the works of a Jewish writer mentioned above, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there isn't ANY mention of Jesus Christ. At all
.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jesus5.htm

Quote
Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death.
Hmmm… just like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot…
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Historicity on May 17, 2011, 05:31:14 PM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology.

That is the Argumentum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity) Ad (http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/misery.html) Misericordium (http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/Ad-Misericordiam-term.htm).  Also known as The Appeal to Pity (http://www.amazon.com/Appeal-Pity-Argumentum-Misericordiam-Language/dp/0791434621).

We're supposed to pity your hurt little feelings and concede your case at the beginning.  Sorry, Christianity fits the definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology) of (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth) a (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth) mythology (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mythology?show=0&t=1305670698).
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 05:44:25 PM
Quote
  when what you posted, just John 3:16 doesn't even mention hell at all.  The verses I posted did that.   :laugh:  Nice try though.  Rather amusing to see even more lies.

You are some what wrong. In John 3:16 it says, "...so that no one would perish.." which I think refers to hell buddy.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: IAmFirst on May 17, 2011, 05:58:36 PM
Quote
  when what you posted, just John 3:16 doesn't even mention hell at all.  The verses I posted did that.   :laugh:  Nice try though.  Rather amusing to see even more lies.

You are some what wrong. In John 3:16 it says, "...so that no one would perish.." which I think refers to hell buddy.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Vol! You're getting confused again. "Hell" was not mentioned in early translations of the bible. The concept you are attributing to Hell, an actual place in the bible, comes from Dante's Inferno, which (most christians don't know) was a comedy.

Dante was obviously inspired by Norse mythology: In Norse mythology, Hel is a being who presides over a realm of the same name, where she receives a portion of the dead. In this mythology, no one is burning, but they are underground, where they are buried, and Hel watches over them, not torment them.

You can find out much, much more about the fictional hell just by starting in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Click on that and see how many other religions have their own version of "hell" and you can read about the goddess Hel in the same link.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 06:50:36 PM
Quote

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Vol! You're getting confused again. "Hell" was not mentioned in early translations of the bible. The concept you are attributing to Hell, an actual place in the bible, comes from Dante's Inferno, which (most christians don't know) was a comedy.

Dante was obviously inspired by Norse mythology: In Norse mythology, Hel is a being who presides over a realm of the same name, where she receives a portion of the dead. In this mythology, no one is burning, but they are underground, where they are buried, and Hel watches over them, not torment them.

You can find out much, much more about the fictional hell just by starting in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Click on that and see how many other religions have their own version of "hell" and you can read about the goddess Hel in the same link.

Norse mythology comes much later (11 to 18th century) than Bible, which was written 2000 years ago. So this verse has nothing to do with Norse mythology.  In the Old Testament, Hell is more closely translated as Sheol in Hebrew or Hades, which means "place of darkness to which all dead go regardless of the moral choices made in life and where they are "removed from the light of God"".

In New Testament, in which Gospels were originally written in Greek, the word hell is exactly translated as 'Gehenna'. It represents a place of fire and torture for the wicked.

You can research this more online if you want. Use Wiki if you wish.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Bagheera on May 17, 2011, 07:04:04 PM
Quote
Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

Stop attacking my intelligence and debate on the topic. All I am saying is that you don't know her state of mind when she died, she could've changed her beliefs and seen God in all of this, while you only see negative.

I bolded part of your reply for emphasis: she still would have gone to Hell by your beliefs[1], because the only way to heaven is through jesus, right?

I think you should consider your approach here carefully. Your are implying here that it is quite possible that the young girl came to jesus in her last moments, and was saved. The other side is that the 4 year olds who have NOT come to Jesus in their final moments, were not saved, and are in Hell. 

Keep in mind that there are plenty of children across the globe who have not heard of Jesus Christ or have been taught that He is NOT the one. Are you claiming that everyone who you feel sorry for magically accepts Christ in their final moments, even if they have never heard of him or have no basis to believe in him as their savior? The kid raised in the  Buddhist tradition has a blinding, magical epiphany immediately before they step on a land mine? If that's the case, why do we need ignorant, argumentative, evangelical Christians for?
 1. I say your beliefs because there are other Christians who believe that Christ's teaching did not apply to Jews; that being good and believing in God is enough; that just doing good is enough; that no one is judged until after the Apocalypse; and so on.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Bagheera on May 17, 2011, 07:09:05 PM
Don't u think that if there was nothing there, this wouldn't exist? After all, no one is going to argue over pink elephant for over 2000 years? Right?

Don't you think that if pink elephants existed, someone would have found one by now?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: IAmFirst on May 17, 2011, 07:32:49 PM
Quote

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Vol! You're getting confused again. "Hell" was not mentioned in early translations of the bible. The concept you are attributing to Hell, an actual place in the bible, comes from Dante's Inferno, which (most christians don't know) was a comedy.

Dante was obviously inspired by Norse mythology: In Norse mythology, Hel is a being who presides over a realm of the same name, where she receives a portion of the dead. In this mythology, no one is burning, but they are underground, where they are buried, and Hel watches over them, not torment them.

You can find out much, much more about the fictional hell just by starting in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Click on that and see how many other religions have their own version of "hell" and you can read about the goddess Hel in the same link.

Norse mythology comes much later (11 to 18th century) than Bible, which was written 2000 years ago. So this verse has nothing to do with Norse mythology.  In the Old Testament, Hell is more closely translated as Sheol in Hebrew or Hades, which means "place of darkness to which all dead go regardless of the moral choices made in life and where they are "removed from the light of God"".

In New Testament, in which Gospels were originally written in Greek, the word hell is exactly translated as 'Gehenna'. It represents a place of fire and torture for the wicked.

You can research this more online if you want. Use Wiki if you wish.

I gave you the wiki site to look at which shows you still have it backwards. (It's not a sin to click on a site that clears things up for ya. ;)) What I'm saying is "Hell" was not mentioned in the Holy Bible UNTIL after Dante's Inferno and the discovery of Nordic Mythology in the late 700s. What the bible DID mention is an "eternal fire" not a hell.

As you point out, the Greek translation (nor did any Hebrew translation) become translated to "Hell" until very recently. KJV is the most recent to mistranslate.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: vozilo on May 17, 2011, 09:07:03 PM
Quote

I gave you the wiki site to look at which shows you still have it backwards. (It's not a sin to click on a site that clears things up for ya. ;)) What I'm saying is "Hell" was not mentioned in the Holy Bible UNTIL after Dante's Inferno and the discovery of Nordic Mythology in the late 700s. What the bible DID mention is an "eternal fire" not a hell.

As you point out, the Greek translation (nor did any Hebrew translation) become translated to "Hell" until very recently. KJV is the most recent to mistranslate.

Well it doesn't matter what the Bible calls it, what is important that is that we call it hell to sum it up.  (I didn't read all of the wiki page as it's very long but I did look at the parts which were relevant to our discussion.) You're saying that Norses invented "hell" but it was already in the Bible.

I can call it Sheol or burning lake. The fact remains a fact: it is real (heaven & hell), based on the bible, other books of different  origins, and testimonies of people being there. (you can search for them on youtube if you'd like).
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Add Homonym on May 17, 2011, 09:21:01 PM
There is no hell in John. It simply states that people either walk in light or darkness. The word perish means disappear.

Around the time the bible was written, some people believed that sheol was compartmentalised into nice bits and bad bits, probably due to the apocryphal book of Enoch.

Luke 16 states that Lazarus went immediately to sheol into the bosom of Abraham, and the rich man started burning in Hades, from where he could see Lazarus having fun with Abraham, over a chasm.

What the bible DID mention is an "eternal fire" not a hell.

"Eonian chastening". Matthew 25:46 is the only place which mentions any duration to the suffering during the 4th eon.
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat25.pdf

The rest of the NT refers to fire, but does not specify how long the fire will take to burn people. The fire of the sun is long lasting, but you wouldn't burn in it for long.

Matt 10 says that your soul is destroyed in hell, but does not specify how long it will take

[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 18, 2011, 08:23:09 AM
Quote
  when what you posted, just John 3:16 doesn't even mention hell at all.  The verses I posted did that.   :laugh:  Nice try though.  Rather amusing to see even more lies.

You are some what wrong. In John 3:16 it says, "...so that no one would perish.." which I think refers to hell buddy.
Always nice to see the usual attempts by a Chrisitan to redefine words.  Perish means die, yes?  Christians die all of the time.  And according to your bible, hell is not a place where anyone perishes. God goes out of his way to make sure people suffer. You indeed have to die to get to hell or sheol or wherever, but as my fellow forum members have pointed out, the hell of Christians is not the sheol of the Jews. 

However, getting back to your delusion that 4 year olds can convert magically.  Again, Voz, show how that can happen.  You make the claim to excuse your vile beliefs and now you are expected to support it.  I don't have to know about the entire universe to know that you are wrong.  I know human psychology, early childhood development, religion, and I know what your bible actually says, not what you and so many others desperately want it to.  It never says that children get a free pass or that anyone is allowed into heaven except by the conscious acceptance of JC.   
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 18, 2011, 11:07:29 AM
Quote
Yes, and despite the insult, the reasoning still stands. If I said "Hey you fucking moron, 2 +2 equals 4"  The insult would in no way render that statement incorrect.

Instead of having a logical conversation you guys start using foul language. How not nice. All I got to say is that I'm not offended by any of that.

Stay cool, we'll talk later. I'll let u cool off a bit.

The insults come and go, Voz (just like in life), but we ARE having a logical conversation, you OTOH, are just sticking to words others have told you without ever questioning them or researching them. That's what "logic" is.

Tell me how Muslims are wrong and you are right.


I only used the profanity as an example of why insults have nothing to do with the validity, or lack of validity of a statement....yet he uses this as an exuse to go off in a huff. I did not even use the profanity against him, only in a theoretical manner.

Not very logical of him.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: DarqueStarr on May 19, 2011, 01:31:43 AM
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 19, 2011, 05:15:53 AM
Does she get to watch her parents roast in hell forever while she cuddles with angels?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: jetson on May 19, 2011, 06:25:30 AM
And here it is folks, Darquestarr is right, and everyone else is wrong!

Never mind how Darquestarr knows this little fact.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 08:10:11 AM
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

First of all Jewish mythology is not part of this, it is irrelevant. Age of accountability sounds like something limited to your sect of Christianity, which of course you veiw as the "One True" interpretation. Second, so if this happed one second before her "age of accountabilty" all would be ok, but one second later an eternity of hell.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 19, 2011, 09:08:39 AM
According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

and one more Christian who wants to ignore their bible's inconvenient parts.  Just hilarious.  ;D There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the bible that says anyone goes to "heaven" without consciously accepting JC.  You don't like that so you ignore it.  And actually, nothing is said about anyone but the 144,000 jewish virgins/eunuchs going to heaven *after* JC returns and everyone else going to the "city of heaven on earth" since they didn't get the grand prize. 

Please do show us where there is anything about the "age of accountablity" mentioned in the bible regarding this or even what this age actually is.  and if God was so concerned about children not being responsible for their actions or their parents actions, why did he kill so many of them in the OT?  We have the nonsensical Flood, the incident where some of the Israelites rebelled and *all* of them, including children, were killed, same with the killing of multitudes of children of enemy tribes. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: jetson on May 19, 2011, 07:38:09 PM


Please do show us where there is anything about the "age of accountablity" mentioned in the bible regarding this or even what this age actually is.  and if God was so concerned about children not being responsible for their actions or their parents actions, why did he kill so many of them in the OT?  We have the nonsensical Flood, the incident where some of the Israelites rebelled and *all* of them, including children, were killed, same with the killing of multitudes of children of enemy tribes.

I'm sure it can be proven because someone made it up.  Thus, it must be true.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 20, 2011, 08:41:02 AM
^^^^ heh :)  I also forgot to mention that lovely "massacre of the innocents" in the NT. Always a good one.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: DarqueStarr on May 21, 2011, 04:42:34 AM
 8)
 >:( I just spent the last 2.5 hours writing a dissertation in response to your replies, but God must not have liked it because when I went to preview it before posting, I had to re-sign in and I ended up losing it...so...here's the quick version...

Ambassador Pony - I don't know, what do you think? In my opinion, no, because that would be a form of torture in and of itself ....

Jetson   &) - I didn't say it, you did; and I never stated that it was a fact...

Hatter23 - Jewish THEOLOGY (why is that so hard for you) is relevant because of your second question "Did they generally observe Judeism as instructed to by their parents? " Yes, they did, making Jewish theology relevant ... Actually, I only recently learned about the term "Age of accountability" about a year ago, during of all things a Christian Bible Study ( :o Imagine that!) ... Yes, I do view MY interpretation as the "One True" interpretation for ME!  You accept it? Fine. You don't? Fine. I don't care ... Finally, one second before or one second after? now that's irrelevant; refer back to your original question....   >:( and please don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't!

Velkyn - same goes for you, don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't either...I do NOT ignore the bible's inconvenient parts. I am currently studying the most violent book in the Old Testament. Do I like it? No! Do I ignore it? No. But I will accept it and learn from it! ... and you are right in that the Bible states that no one comes to Father but through the Son; but I'm not the one who doesn't like that or who ignores it - that would be you ... and unlike you, I don't presume to know everything therefore the only thing I know about the virgins is that it is in Revelation ... Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   It's the Bible - you don't accept it or give it any credibility...I answered the question according to my theology and to my satisfaction, so why should i waste my hard work on you? ... sorry I just don't see the point, if you're not going to believe it anyway.  Maybe I will, Maybe I won't...I just don't know.    8)

I do know that it's not going to happen tonight/day...cause I'm going to bed!  Good Night!


Well?....
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 21, 2011, 06:22:08 AM
Ambassador Pony - I don't know, what do you think? In my opinion, no, because that would be a form of torture in and of itself ....

You're right. Now, think it through to the logical conclusion. How could it in any such circumstance not be torture (while remaining consistent with the relevant Christian dogma)?

edit: sperlin' / addition
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: jetson on May 21, 2011, 08:13:06 AM

Quote from: DarqueStarr
Jetson    - I didn't say it, you did; and I never stated that it was a fact...

This is what you said (my bold):

Quote from: DarqueStarr
According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

My reply stands, as you are clearly making unsubstantiated claims.  And nowhere did you state this was just your opinion.  Although, leaving out facts and evidence guarantees it is just opinion...
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Bagheera on May 22, 2011, 04:01:37 AM
Hatter23 - Jewish THEOLOGY (why is that so hard for you) is relevant because of your second question "Did they generally observe Judeism as instructed to by their parents? " Yes, they did, making Jewish theology relevant ... Actually, I only recently learned about the term "Age of accountability" about a year ago, during of all things a Christian Bible Study ( :o Imagine that!) ... Yes, I do view MY interpretation as the "One True" interpretation for ME!  You accept it? Fine. You don't? Fine. I don't care ... Finally, one second before or one second after? now that's irrelevant; refer back to your original question....   >:( and please don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't!

Interesting. So, according to you, Jewish people are bound by the Christian doctrine even though their disposition is determined by Jewish theology?

I ask only because you pointed out that the child being raised a Jew is relevant, yet also claim that the age of accountability in your Christian doctrine, which is the one true interpretation, is also relevant. So . . . both are right? Jews can go to heaven, even though the only way to heaven is through acceptance of Christ, but you don't have to accept Christ if you're under the AoA?

Could you cite some references to back up all these positions? I am curious to know which passages support theses seemingly contradictory statements.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Grogs on May 22, 2011, 12:08:57 PM
8)
 >:( I just spent the last 2.5 hours writing a dissertation in response to your replies, but God must not have liked it because when I went to preview it before posting, I had to re-sign in and I ended up losing it...so...here's the quick version...

Mine took me about a year to write, so it could have been worse. :P Seriously though, when I start spending crazy amounts of time on a single post, I'll copy and paste it into Notepad and save it on the desktop from time to time. It's something I've learned to do from bad experiences.


Velkyn - same goes for you, don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't either...I do NOT ignore the bible's inconvenient parts. I am currently studying the most violent book in the Old Testament. Do I like it? No! Do I ignore it? No. But I will accept it and learn from it!

See, that's the thing, we don't ignore the Bible. When we read books like that (Joshua per chance?) we come to the conclusion that the actions being described are inconsistent with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being and dismiss them as fables. When believers read those verses, they tend to go in with the presupposition that God is good, so they'll perform any mental gymnastics that are necessary to give him a free pass for any actions that seem wrong.

.Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   It's the Bible - you don't accept it or give it any credibility...I answered the question according to my theology and to my satisfaction, so why should i waste my hard work on you? ... sorry I just don't see the point, if you're not going to believe it anyway.  Maybe I will, Maybe I won't...I just don't know.    8)

Note that bolded part above. We tend to equate things that have to be "indirectly inferred" with SPAG. Again, start with a presupposition about God - God is just. We know that sending a child to hell just because they're too young to accept Jesus wouldn't be just, so therefore, the Bible clearly  &) shows that children below a certain age get a free pass.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Graybeard on May 22, 2011, 03:27:44 PM
Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   
It's the "indirectly refers" bit that we see regularly from amateur apologists. This is where the Bible "indirectly refers" to computers, bacteria, nuclear fission, immunology, semi-conductors and a whole host of things of which God should have had knowledge but Bronze Age peasants inspired by Him strangely never mentioned.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 22, 2011, 09:00:10 PM
Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   
It's the "indirectly refers" bit that we see regularly from amateur apologists. This is where the Bible "indirectly refers" to computers, bacteria, nuclear fission, immunology, semi-conductors and a whole host of things of which God should have had knowledge but Bronze Age peasants inspired by Him strangely never mentioned.

Indirectly pretty much mean "Magic Decoder Ring pulling overtime"
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on May 22, 2011, 09:09:05 PM


Hatter23 - Jewish THEOLOGY (why is that so hard for you) is relevant because of your second question "Did they generally observe Judeism as instructed to by their parents? " Yes, they did, making Jewish theology relevant ... Actually, I only recently learned about the term "Age of accountability" about a year ago, during of all things a Christian Bible Study ( :o Imagine that!) ... Yes, I do view MY interpretation as the "One True" interpretation for ME!  You accept it? Fine. You don't? Fine. I don't care ... Finally, one second before or one second after? now that's irrelevant; refer back to your original question....   >:( and please don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't!


So wait a second, you are arguing that age of accountability is something your sect follows...but I know other sects don't. But you are upset that I "presume" to know you???? Hunh??? Can you even parse that line of reasoning?

And the one second before and one second after IS relevant because the point I was making is how ridiculous and vile the doctrine of heaven and hell is. You moved the goalposts. I ajusted my argument for those new goalposts....and now I'm not allowed to?

Do you not expect when you move the goalposts, and unlike most people you actually made them visible, that a person would adjust for them and all you can come up with is..."you can't?" That is complete foolishness that is transparent as glass.

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on May 25, 2011, 10:14:26 AM
Velkyn - same goes for you, don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't either...I do NOT ignore the bible's inconvenient parts. I am currently studying the most violent book in the Old Testament. Do I like it? No! Do I ignore it? No. But I will accept it and learn from it! ... and you are right in that the Bible states that no one comes to Father but through the Son; but I'm not the one who doesn't like that or who ignores it - that would be you ... and unlike you, I don't presume to know everything therefore the only thing I know about the virgins is that it is in Revelation ... Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   It's the Bible - you don't accept it or give it any credibility...I answered the question according to my theology and to my satisfaction, so why should i waste my hard work on you? ... sorry I just don't see the point, if you're not going to believe it anyway.  Maybe I will, Maybe I won't...I just don't know.    8)

So have you given up all you have for JC?  Do you at least attempt to kill homosexuals, those that work on the "sabbath" (which day is the right one, DS?) and those who reject JC as their "prince"?  Do you eat shrimp or a cheeseburger?  I'm going to guess that you will try to claim that God didn't "really" mean any of those or that JC said that those laws don't apply anymore.  Both rather sad little claims since it is more than easy to show how they are wrong.   

And I do love it when Christians make claims and then whine when they are asked to show the evidence.  So nice to see that you indeed were lying about such things and don't have even enough belief to keep you from doing that.  Nice little hypocrite you are, DS.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Tykster on May 25, 2011, 10:37:12 AM
Wow, I'm the one who is ignorant? You people see what u want to see and I'm trying to tell you the Truth.
How about I'll give u a link to another discussion and then you'll let me know what you think:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7509431/

It's laughable that you point to this site as a defense of your belief. The apologists in there only affirm that there's no evidence of  Jesus.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: caveat_imperator on May 25, 2011, 01:59:30 PM
It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

Quote
It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, think they have meaning in their lives, think they know where they came from and think they know where they are going. The other group don't believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going.

The edits in italics added to make what was previously written more accurate.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Rare96ws6 on June 19, 2011, 12:37:34 AM
Quote

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Vol! You're getting confused again. "Hell" was not mentioned in early translations of the bible. The concept you are attributing to Hell, an actual place in the bible, comes from Dante's Inferno, which (most christians don't know) was a comedy.

Dante was obviously inspired by Norse mythology: In Norse mythology, Hel is a being who presides over a realm of the same name, where she receives a portion of the dead. In this mythology, no one is burning, but they are underground, where they are buried, and Hel watches over them, not torment them.

You can find out much, much more about the fictional hell just by starting in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Click on that and see how many other religions have their own version of "hell" and you can read about the goddess Hel in the same link.


Norse mythology comes much later (11 to 18th century) than Bible, which was written 2000 years ago. So this verse has nothing to do with Norse mythology.  In the Old Testament, Hell is more closely translated as Sheol in Hebrew or Hades, which means "place of darkness to which all dead go regardless of the moral choices made in life and where they are "removed from the light of God"".

In New Testament, in which Gospels were originally written in Greek, the word hell is exactly translated as 'Gehenna'. It represents a place of fire and torture for the wicked.

You can research this more online if you want. Use Wiki if you wish.

 Following this line of thinking, the Ugaritic texts of the Canaanites came before the Bible and even mention some of the same gods the Bible does. Yahweh is also mentioned in the texts as a son of the god El. They were written before the Israelites even came into the land of Canana. It seems plausible to think that the Israelites adopted their religious beliefs from the Canaanites or at least adjusted them.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Rare96ws6 on June 19, 2011, 12:42:04 AM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?
Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

 V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind.  The couple you have mentioned above, you should look up. They have all been debunked.

Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Rare96ws6 on June 19, 2011, 12:43:46 AM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).
As you say, none saw him alive and the Josephus passage you are thinking of is a forgery added much later by an over-excitable Christian.

Quote
Consider the following list. These are the historians and writers who DID live within Christ's alleged lifetime or within a hundred years of it, after the time:
 Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias
Yet, aside from two FORGED passages in the works of a Jewish writer mentioned above, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there isn't ANY mention of Jesus Christ. At all
.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jesus5.htm

Quote
Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death.
Hmmm… just like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot…

 Whoops, I just realized you already posted this list for V to look at. Sorry:(
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Rare96ws6 on June 19, 2011, 12:54:09 AM
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

 Could you please post verses? I was taught this as a Christian, but no verses were ever referenced. I have yet to read any on my own and I have read through the Bible a few times. If you are referring to other texts, please post them.

thanks 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Emily on June 19, 2011, 02:10:46 AM
According to Job 14:1 she is.

Job 14:1

Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.

So why would god not make someone accountable for their actions when they are only a few days old? If following the bible.

Also considering that in Romans all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god, so therefor their is no age of accountability.

It would be nice to think that there is such an age of accountability in god's eyes, but there isn't. All the passages seem to indicate that the moment you are born you are a sinner, and it doesn't matter if you die before you are able to recognize your sin and shame in god's eyes. It doesn't matter to him how old you are. If you die before being able to fully recognize the errors of your ways, biblically speaking, you're destined to spend eternity with the most vile people ever to walk the planet.

Kind of shows how much of a complete dick god is.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: naemhni on June 19, 2011, 07:16:04 AM
V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind.

Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias

Yes, it's very peculiar.  Especially in light of:

Mt 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.   

4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

And it wasn't just that people traveled to see Jesus, either.  Jesus wore out more than a little sandal leather himself (http://www.biblewalks.com/info/Jesus_Maps.html).

So let me get this straight.  There's a guy working all these fantastic miracles -- keep in mind, scripture says that he did far, far more miracles than what's reported in the bible itself, too -- healing the sick, walking on water, performing exorcisms, feeding thousands of people with a couple of loaves of bread and a few fish, all kinds of other stuff.  He becomes so famous that thousands of people travel hundreds of miles to see him, and he travels hundreds of miles himself, seeing thousands more people who didn't travel.  Upon his death, there's a three-hour long eclipse, and dead people rise from their graves and start walking around...

...and the historians of the period record NONE of this?!

In the immortal words of Batman's sidekick, Robin: "Holy improbability!"
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Rare96ws6 on June 19, 2011, 08:38:32 PM
 Exactly Pianodwarf. I just don't get why so many people don't see this as a problem. With all of the many things Jesus supposedly did, why is that absolutely no record of it? Crazy!
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: jaimehlers on June 20, 2011, 12:37:04 AM
8)
 >:( I just spent the last 2.5 hours writing a dissertation in response to your replies, but God must not have liked it because when I went to preview it before posting, I had to re-sign in and I ended up losing it...so...here's the quick version...
Suggestion for the future, write it in a notepad scratch file or something.

No comment on the rest because I haven't read it through, but this caught my eye.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Vivisectus on June 20, 2011, 05:09:23 AM
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

That depends on which branch of either you adhere to. Catholicism has only stopped consigning them to purgatory in the past few years, for instance - please note that the little girl was not baptized. Calvinist protestants consider her faith pre-destined anyway - it makes no difference what she did in her life, she would probably go to hell along with the vast majority of people.

Most christians see humanity as essentially sinful, so it is a fair bet that a little girl who was not a christian would go to the lakes of fire.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Vivisectus on June 20, 2011, 05:12:44 AM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?
Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

 V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind.  The couple you have mentioned above, you should look up. They have all been debunked.

Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias

This list does not seem to be correct - Josephus does indeed mention Jesus. There is some dispute regarding the authenticity of the passage where he mentions it, but this seems to be mostly from people who do not believe in a historical Jesus.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Graybeard on June 20, 2011, 05:37:11 AM
It may be more accurate to say "The list may only be 97.6% correct if Josephus’s reference is ever shown to be genuine." ;)
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Graybeard on June 20, 2011, 07:12:59 AM
Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment.
The good Christian will say that God has a Plan. The Plan is fixed. We know this for He is working towards Judgement Day that has a few conditions attached before it will come. God, however, allows us to make many choices freely or He can direct us in major ones to continue His Plan.

The dead child is dead because it was God’s Plan, as laid out in the Bible to have Jews killed.[1]

At all other points, she had free will and could have accepted Jesus, after all, she was living in a Christian country. It would not have stopped her from dying but at least she would have gone to heaven.

(I have an argument as to whether Jews go to heaven or not, but that is for another thread.)
 1.  Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Rare96ws6 on June 20, 2011, 08:30:25 PM
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?
Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

 V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind.  The couple you have mentioned above, you should look up. They have all been debunked.

Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias

This list does not seem to be correct - Josephus does indeed mention Jesus. There is some dispute regarding the authenticity of the passage where he mentions it, but this seems to be mostly from people who do not believe in a historical Jesus.

 If you have time, read what Josephus wrote about Jesus in his Testamonius Flavianum, and make sure to include the surrounding paragraphs. The paragraph about Jesus is written as though the writer is a Christian, not a Jew like Josephus was. It seems to have been placed into his text at a later date, not written by him. Other things that may strike a person as as odd is that there is no mention of this paragraph before the 4th century, the continuity is broken by this paragraph, Jesus is not mentioned in the table of contents and Josephus doesn't write anything else about Jesus.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: caveat_imperator on June 21, 2011, 02:57:24 PM
If you have time, read what Josephus wrote about Jesus in his Testamonius Flavianum, and make sure to include the surrounding paragraphs. The paragraph about Jesus is written as though the writer is a Christian, not a Jew like Josephus was. It seems to have been placed into his text at a later date, not written by him. Other things that may strike a person as as odd is that there is no mention of this paragraph before the 4th century, the continuity is broken by this paragraph, Jesus is not mentioned in the table of contents and Josephus doesn't write anything else about Jesus.

Also, isn't the TF in middle of a list of bad things that happened to Israel?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Graybeard on June 21, 2011, 03:07:46 PM
IIRC, the offending passage is between a description of a military campaign and some gossip about a marital infidelity.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Azdgari on July 05, 2011, 03:22:57 PM
At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

At what value is this Age of Accountability, and where is it mentioned in your bible?

You claim it is greater than 4.  Is it also greater than 8?  Less than 15?  I'm interested in your math.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: grasszilla on October 12, 2011, 04:01:10 PM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 12, 2011, 04:57:52 PM
Grasszilla, what proof? Somewhere in their teens?

AFAIK, there is zero proof of a deity existing, nevermind the specific one that people where and when you happen to have been born generally are taught to think exists.

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Eaten by Bears on October 12, 2011, 05:17:27 PM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Of course God loves all children. Especially those he set the two wild bears on.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Omen on October 12, 2011, 05:23:31 PM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because

This has absolutely no biblical support and you made it up on the spot because you're incredulous to the logical implications of your religious ideology if it were taken to be 'real'. 

Why would you expect your answer, based in such grounds of arbitrary make believe, to be taken seriously by anyone else?

Why would you expect others to engage in the same level of intellectual dishonesty you just demonstrated for us in order to take your answer seriously?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on October 13, 2011, 08:23:33 AM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

hmm, your god (if it actually would exist) doesn't seem to love children considering he supposedly kills them painfully in a world-wide flood, a blast of "fire" at two cities, every time his chosen people annihilate another tribe, if their parents do something god doesn't like, etc etc etc.  We also have that there is no way to be saved unless one consciously accepts JC as savior.  That seems to demonstrate your claim that "all children go to heaven" is unbiblical and simply more Christian wishful thinking.   

I see that you are trying to use the "age of responsiblity" excuse that Christians often try to invoke when they realize their god is a very nasty primitive god.  Of course, you can't actually tell us what age that magically would be. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: plethora on October 13, 2011, 08:28:27 AM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Why doesn't he just save them the pain and suffering and create them directly in heaven? Why must they suffer at all if they are not accountable?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: gonegolfing on October 13, 2011, 12:43:48 PM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Baseless self-indulgent (and structurally messy) twaddle, with zero evidence to back it up....as usual !  &)

Where there is fate, there is no free will. Where there is predetermination, there is no free will. Where there is an omniscient god with all foreknowledge, there is no free will. When will you fools ever get that ?

Free will is a myth (just like your god). It's a religious term created to dupe gullible people like yourself into thinking that you have a choice and say in your supposed future afterlife existence. The only thing that you have to fall back on in that belief however, are some vague references in a 2000 yr. old story book that were made by a rebellious rabbinical teacher whose name is described as jesus. That's it, that's all you've got, mere ancient words from an undeniably shoddy and highly suspect piece of ancient Hebrew historical fiction.

You can save your elaborations.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: jaimehlers on October 13, 2011, 01:13:32 PM
If you have time, read what Josephus wrote about Jesus in his Testamonius Flavianum, and make sure to include the surrounding paragraphs. The paragraph about Jesus is written as though the writer is a Christian, not a Jew like Josephus was. It seems to have been placed into his text at a later date, not written by him. Other things that may strike a person as as odd is that there is no mention of this paragraph before the 4th century, the continuity is broken by this paragraph, Jesus is not mentioned in the table of contents and Josephus doesn't write anything else about Jesus.
Indeed.  It's been pretty conclusively shown that Josephus was not the writer of that particular passage.  It appears to have been a stealth edit by someone who wanted to 'prove' that Jesus was important enough for a historian like Josephus to write about.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on October 14, 2011, 12:25:30 AM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

We've already gone over this in this thread. "Age of accountability" means that one moment before it, perfect salvation; one most after, eternal damnation. So it was a 13, 4 month and 5 day year old girl instead....the whole analogy still stands.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on October 14, 2011, 12:26:41 AM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

hmm, your god (if it actually would exist) doesn't seem to love children considering he supposedly kills them painfully in a world-wide flood, a blast of "fire" at two cities, every time his chosen people annihilate another tribe, if their parents do something god doesn't like, etc etc etc.  We also have that there is no way to be saved unless one consciously accepts JC as savior.  That seems to demonstrate your claim that "all children go to heaven" is unbiblical and simply more Christian wishful thinking.   

I see that you are trying to use the "age of responsiblity" excuse that Christians often try to invoke when they realize their god is a very nasty primitive god.  Of course, you can't actually tell us what age that magically would be.

nor can they provide any proof....even a bible passage...where this age of accountability stuff comes from
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: plethora on October 14, 2011, 03:23:29 AM
I call drive-by ...
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: grasszilla on October 14, 2011, 10:07:19 AM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because

This has absolutely no biblical support and you made it up on the spot because you're incredulous to the logical implications of your religious ideology if it were taken to be 'real'. 

Why would you expect your answer, based in such grounds of arbitrary make believe, to be taken seriously by anyone else?

Why would you expect others to engage in the same level of intellectual dishonesty you just demonstrated for us in order to take your answer seriously?
niv translation:Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." matt 19:14
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: grasszilla on October 14, 2011, 10:26:41 AM
i did not write this but i agree "The age of accountability is a concept that teaches those who die before reaching the age of accountability are automatically saved, by God’s grace and mercy. The age of accountability is a belief that God saves all those who die before reaching the ability to make a decision for or against Christ. Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.

With the above in mind, also consider this: Christ's death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” David's response was, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” David's response indicates that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would see the child (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Although it is possible that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who cannot believe, the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. God’s applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His love and mercy. It is our position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior, but again we cannot be dogmatic. Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does is always right and good." http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: plethora on October 14, 2011, 10:30:48 AM
grasszilla, quoting bible verses is meaningless to us. We don't believe it is the actual word of a god. You may as well be quoting the Koran or Harry Potter.

Also, use your own words. You can reference other material but doing a simple copy/paste job is not engaging in a discussion.

Considering the above posts you just made, please answer the question I asked earlier:

Why doesn't he just save them the pain and suffering and create them directly in heaven? Why must they suffer at all if they are not accountable?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: grasszilla on October 14, 2011, 11:03:37 AM
grasszilla, quoting bible verses is meaningless to us. We don't believe it is the actual word of a god. You may as well be quoting the Koran or Harry Potter.

Also, use your own words. You can reference other material but doing a simple copy/paste job is not engaging in a discussion.

Considering the above posts you just made, please answer the question I asked earlier:

Why doesn't he just save them the pain and suffering and create them directly in heaven? Why must they suffer at all if they are not accountable?
if you don't believe what I'm about to type then that's okay. hmm... well the world is full of murder and poverty and starving people right? well, as i understand, the world is in calamity because of a guy who ate some bad fruit. we suffer because of his bad choice and why doesn't god just create children directly in heaven? all humans are born in sin, and that includes infants. as infants, we are guilty of sin, and since human nature is sinful, no one not even them can make it into heaven, however, because god (that you may not believe in) loves us so much he sent his son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. then that's where age comes in. if you die before you are able to choose to believe or not then god will accept you. it is said that only Christians go to heaven, but the exception is those who didn't have the chance to believe or not. since Jesus' blood can cover the sins of everyone, those who died before having the ability to believe or not are saved through Jesus' blood and gods grace and mercy. also, on another note, the bible in revelations says that the glory of heaven is much greater than the suffering we endure here on earth and this suffering is nothing compared to the everlasting love and glory of god in heaven. Revelation 21:4 (NIV)

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

not very eloquent am i?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on October 14, 2011, 11:22:18 AM
not very eloquent am i?

No, but you don’t have much to work with.  Your version of what the bible means is just one of many.  So, if Adam and eve’s actions damned us, who’s fault was that to have let a snake (who may or may not be satan) into a garden with two people who had no idea of what good and evil are? 

We have a god that damns everyone for the actions of others.  Is this fair? Would you punish someone for something they didn’t do?  If you wouldn’t why should this god?

You claim that human nature is sinful. Well, who caused that to happen? Yep, your god by making us this way.  So we get punished for your god’s mistakes. 

Your god then proceeded to try covenants, laws, etc before it finally got around to deciding that it needs a blood sacrifice to clean up its own mess.  This isn’t love, this is damage control. 

Then your nonsensical claims about age having anything to do with it.  If someone dies before accepting JC consciously in your bible, they go to hell.  This includes children, because, as you said, they are evil sinful creatures.  There is no “get out of jail free card” for children because of age in the bible.  You only have your wishful thinking because you know it’s a bad thing to punish someone who is innocent. So you make up things about your god and ignore the inconvenient parts of your bible. 

AS for revelation, that’s one of my favorite parts.  Have you actually read your bible, grasszilla?  Do you know that in Revelation, that God kills all evil peole and JC reigns for an “eon” over earth with all of the believers. But for some reason, your god *intentionally* allows Satan back on earth to corrupt more people.  All of these people who were perfectly fine until God decides he needs to kill more people and damn them.  Golly how nice is that? 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: plethora on October 14, 2011, 11:35:12 AM
Okay ... grasszilla, obviously you believe this and I don't.  But my question is, do you agree with this?

I see a vast number of problems with this god scenario of yours. A few:

1) Do you think it's fair to punish every descendant of the humans who originally sinned before they're even born? When the hell did I ever agree to this? I didn't sin ... this all happened before I was even born.

2) Couldn't god simply forgive humanity without having to send his son to be tortured to death? I mean, he makes the rules right? He couldn't just change them? What's the deal with this human sacrifice?

3) You have conflicting ideas about children here. You say they are sinners but then god gives them a free pass if they die early. That makes no sense. He is supposed to be omniscient, doesn't he know in advance the kid is gonna die? Why not give him the free pass to heaven before the kid has to suffer through a disease-ridden life of misery and pain (I'm talking about the 22,000 children who die each day). That's 8 million children each year!

4) You say human nature is sinful. Well if you believe that god created us and that he is omniscient (and he makes the rules), then he is directly responsible for us being this way. He created us and knew full well in advance that we would break his rules. Why would he punish his creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do?

Then, the 66% of the earth's population that is not christian and is in adulthood is fucked because they were never exposed to christianity? (I'm assuming being a christian of any denomination is good enough for salvation here).

So 4 billion people walking the earth today are hellbound? Why can't he just forgive everyone, spare them the pain and change their nature to be compatible with his rules?

So even if your god appeared to me and proved his existence, I would feel nothing but fear and utter disgust and what a sadistic fuck he is.

Luckily, he does not exist and humanity can take action to help the millions of children who are dying every year.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on October 14, 2011, 04:20:14 PM
God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does is always right and good."

So given that he created the whole universe, including evil, eveything he does is good. Creating evil is a good thing.

AND YOU WONDER WHY WE QUESTION THIS CRAP????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The original post I made still stands as correct, except we can change the age of the girl to whatever your magic "age of accountability" argument ad hoc throws into the mix
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: kardula on October 16, 2011, 09:18:42 PM
Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz.  By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Christians. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.

when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on October 17, 2011, 07:45:44 AM
Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz.  By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Christians. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.

when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.

so we add a playmate...or even a gaurd talking about Jesus for 5 minutes....still an ad hoc argument
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on October 19, 2011, 04:04:19 PM
when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.

which isn't biblical at all, and I suspect this is because they didn't have our more tolerant and educated attitude.  Again, science and secular society is always many steps before religion and religion always has to catch up. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: ungod on October 24, 2011, 10:22:09 AM

(I have an argument as to whether Jews go to heaven or not, but that is for another thread.)

Frankly, I'd prefer the Jewish Heaven, they probably have the best corned beef on rye...
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on October 24, 2011, 10:24:44 AM

(I have an argument as to whether Jews go to heaven or not, but that is for another thread.)

Frankly, I'd prefer the Jewish Heaven, they probably have the best corned beef on rye...

Except no provolone to go on that...but oh well.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: ungod on October 24, 2011, 02:41:36 PM
god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Of course God loves all children. Especially those he set the two wild bears on.

And, let's not forget

Quote
" Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!" (Psalm 137:9

 :? :?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: grasszilla on March 11, 2012, 04:57:16 AM
Hello. I came back. I cannot right now but i would like to continue this discussion soon. Give me a couple days if you care to continue. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: plethora on March 12, 2012, 05:32:27 AM
grasszilla ... I would like to have your point by point response to my earlier post seeing as I took the time to write it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18847.msg449619.html#msg449619
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: grasszilla on March 14, 2012, 04:25:03 AM
Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later. I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: ungod on March 14, 2012, 06:10:43 AM
Quote from:  plethora March 12, 2012
grasszilla ... I would like to have your point by point response to my earlier post seeing as I took the time to write it:

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

TRANSLATION: I can't refute any of your points.  So, instead, I'll just offer up this bullcrap sermon -

Quote
I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: One Above All on March 14, 2012, 06:13:24 AM
Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

TRANSLATION: I can't refute any of your points.  So, instead, I'll just offer up this bullcrap sermon -

grasszilla was posting that from his cellphone. There's no reason to doubt his honesty on that point. You're right about the sermon though.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on March 14, 2012, 09:49:04 AM
Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later. I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.
We never see that your god is just.  Per your own bible, this god intentionally makes sure that some people will never be able to “accept” him and he damns them for what he has made them unable to do.  Your god killed a man who dared to try to keep his magic box upright.  You god says that it will punish children for the acts of the parents (and why yes, it does contradict this, so much for your eternal truth from your god).  Your god forced his will on a man so he could show off and killed many to also show off, people who had no choice in the matter. If one believes in original sin, this is more evidence that your god is unjust, punishing people for the actions of two, the actions that this god knew they would do and provided all of the means for the act to occur.  Poor god, either intended for the snake to be there and for humanity to fall or was too stupid to realize what would happen.   

In Soddom and Gomorrah, we have a city that is supposedly so very sinful, but oh this god’s man in the city offers his daughters to a supposedly rapacious crowd.  What a good god there to approve of this act!  It’s also nice to see that you think that anyone who doesn’t worship your god should be killed, even the children.  How good of you, grasszilla, since you approve of genocide.  Now, I’m going to guess that you’ll whine that you don’t approve of genocide but you have no choice since that’s what your god wants.  Well, grasszilla, that makes your argument end up as “might equals right”, and shows your religion is really only based on fear and greed.  How disgusting, at least other religions aren’t quite so primitive and pathetic as yours.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 14, 2012, 12:29:27 PM
go on grasszilla, so far the only thing you used to try to refute my point is the sect specific, non-biblical age of accountability...which still boil down to one second before said age or one second after makes all the difference in your mythology approving eternal torture.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: plethora on March 15, 2012, 05:13:01 AM
Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

Until such time as you do, I will retain my opinion that you're full of crap.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: ungod on March 15, 2012, 06:38:39 AM
Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

TRANSLATION: I can't refute any of your points.  So, instead, I'll just offer up this bullcrap sermon -

grasszilla was posting that from his cellphone. There's no reason to doubt his honesty on that point. You're right about the sermon though.

Time will tell - we'll see if the refutation shows up, or just evasion.

 ;D
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: grasszilla on March 18, 2012, 09:09:26 PM
not gonna answer all of them now but i do wanna answer this one
4) You say human nature is sinful. Well if you believe that god created us and that he is omniscient (and he makes the rules), then he is directly responsible for us being this way. He created us and knew full well in advance that we would break his rules. Why would he punish his creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do?
he knew we could break the rules. GOD knows everything anyone will do or has done, the exception being a and e of course. the way i see it, based on everything that has happened since existence started and everything any thing has been done or has happened is how GOD knows exactly what will happen based on the individual and their thought process. and even if the way i explained it is incorrect, it doesn't mean that he knew they would do that or he would'nt have made them. oh and another thing, without the ability to choose we are baisically robots. i mean, if i asked you what you thought should i wear today, a red toga or a blue one would you be able to tell me?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: plethora on March 19, 2012, 05:17:35 AM
not gonna answer all of them now but i do wanna answer this one
4) You say human nature is sinful. Well if you believe that god created us and that he is omniscient (and he makes the rules), then he is directly responsible for us being this way. He created us and knew full well in advance that we would break his rules. Why would he punish his creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do?
he knew we could break the rules. GOD knows everything anyone will do or has done, the exception being a and e of course. the way i see it, based on everything that has happened since existence started and everything any thing has been done or has happened is how GOD knows exactly what will happen based on the individual and their thought process. and even if the way i explained it is incorrect, it doesn't mean that he knew they would do that or he would'nt have made them.

So god knows everything except the choices we're going to make. In other words, he's not omniscient. Which puts you ad odds with the vast majority of christians.

You're trying desperately to force the concept of the christian god compatible with free will and the existence of evil. You simply can't have your cake and eat it too.

Quote
oh and another thing, without the ability to choose we are baisically robots. i mean, if i asked you what you thought should i wear today, a red toga or a blue one would you be able to tell me?

Of course I'd be able to tell you... I chose the blue toga. There.

The question is, did I have free will when I chose the blue toga? I don't think so, as I am acting according to my brain configuration, desires and preferences which I did not get to chose.

Can you make a choice to prefer X over Y?

I prefer vanilla to chocolate. Can I chose to prefer chocolate over vanilla? Nope... the same way I prefer blue over red (I might advise you against using a toga though ... ).
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Eaten by Bears on March 24, 2012, 12:59:09 PM
Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later. I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.

Awesome way to justify the murder of children there. I hope you're pleased with yourself.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: dloubet on March 25, 2012, 01:49:15 AM
grasszilla wrote:
Quote
the way i see it, based on everything that has happened since existence started and everything any thing has been done or has happened is how GOD knows exactly what will happen based on the individual and their thought process.

Congratulations, you've just described determinism.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: ungod on March 27, 2012, 03:05:06 PM
oh and another thing, without the ability to choose we are baisically robots.

If only the bad choices were eliminated, but we had plenty of good choices, how does that make us robots?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: rockv12 on March 28, 2012, 10:03:27 PM
Hatter23, your story is flawed in many regards.  The girl is going to heaven.  If you understood Scripture you would understand that God does NOT send little kids to eternal hellfire.  Eternal hellfire is ALSO not Biblical. 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Azdgari on March 28, 2012, 10:08:31 PM
Anything is Biblical if you decide to read that meaning into the Bible.  Even the stuff that you believe.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 29, 2012, 07:08:55 AM
Hatter23, your story is flawed in many regards.  The girl is going to heaven.  If you understood Scripture you would understand that God does NOT send little kids to eternal hellfire.  Eternal hellfire is ALSO not Biblical.


Ahh, your decoder ring is different than all those other Christians, you know the vast majority of them. But your OneTrue brand of Christianity is different. And how are we to test that it is correct?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: rockv12 on March 29, 2012, 08:49:39 PM
Hatter23, your story is flawed in many regards.  The girl is going to heaven.  If you understood Scripture you would understand that God does NOT send little kids to eternal hellfire.  Eternal hellfire is ALSO not Biblical.


Ahh, your decoder ring is different than all those other Christians, you know the vast majority of them. But your OneTrue brand of Christianity is different. And how are we to test that it is correct?

How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Aaron123 on March 30, 2012, 12:20:59 AM
How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

So... what is this "age of reason", and where is it mentioned in the bible?


Quote
Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.

So, millions of christians are wrong, and you're right?  Care to explain then, why they all got it wrong, and how you happen to be right? 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: ungod on March 30, 2012, 12:38:49 AM
Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.

What Bible are you reading?

Quote
Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm


Isn't lying a sin?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: ungod on March 30, 2012, 12:53:02 AM
Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

And yet God punishes children with diabetes, leukemia, polio, leprosy, measles, chicken pox, cancer, and all the others in the gamut of childhood diseases. What a kind, loving father! Let's all kneel in thanks and worship!

Here's a prophecy - you'll tell us God works in mysterious ways beyond our understanding, and it's all for the ultimate good!
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 30, 2012, 05:58:15 AM


How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.


Well I was going to bring up all the problems with this post, but my peers seem to have the bases covered, please see the responses, and see if any of them can pierce through your narrow mystical paradigm.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: gonegolfing on March 30, 2012, 07:43:02 AM

Quote
How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Then why teach them it ? Why in the fuck would you teach a child something they cannot understand ! ? Why the sickening lust in religion for the minds of children if those children can't grasp what it is that they're being told ?


Quote
Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?   Cuz it takes a while.

No we don't. We're all fully aware of the meek and mild carpenter's threats with hell doctrine so don't waste your time.

Answer my question about the kids though  >:(
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 30, 2012, 08:44:57 AM
Anyone who has studied the Bible, really?

How many millions believe in original sin?
How many millions have their children go to confession?
How many hundreds of millions believe in hell as torture?
Where is this magic age mentioned in the Bible(written long before Neurology would be even dreamed of)?
And if there is one, then one second before it versus one second after it determines her eternal fate?

Are you really that conceited and naive?



Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: rockv12 on March 30, 2012, 11:48:34 AM

Quote
How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Then why teach them it ? Why in the fuck would you teach a child something they cannot understand ! ? Why the sickening lust in religion for the minds of children if those children can't grasp what it is that they're being told ?


You teach them what you believe.  You can't start teaching a child language at the age of 12.  Am I seriously having to explain this?

Children can understand things, that's not what I said.  But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.  We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.  But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.  God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing.  Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?  But a grown man who has willfully rejected God and knowingly decided to go against God, then when he dies, he does NOT get to go to heaven. 

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: rockv12 on March 30, 2012, 11:57:01 AM
Anyone who has studied the Bible, really?

How many millions believe in original sin?
How many millions have their children go to confession?
How many hundreds of millions believe in hell as torture?
Where is this magic age mentioned in the Bible(written long before Neurology would be even dreamed of)?
And if there is one, then one second before it versus one second after it determines her eternal fate?

Are you really that conceited and naive?

Well, you can't expect every person to be 100% correct in their doctrine, can you?  There are many things "Christians" do that I don't believe they should. 

Confession as Catholics do is NOT Biblical.

You can't just say, "Hell is eternal punishment in the lake of fire!" without really studying Scripture.  You can't take people's word for the TRUTH without actually examining if it's true or not.  I don't see Uncle Joe suffering in a lake of fire for eternity as a just punishment for not accepting God.  Does this seem like a think God would do?  No.  It's kinda silly to think of yourself sitting in heaven after a trillion years and still be thinking of Uncle Joe screaming in pain down in hell, doesn't it?  Now where in Scripture does it say that hell is eternal torture of burning flesh?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Aaron123 on March 30, 2012, 12:01:08 PM

Children can understand things, that's not what I said.  But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.  We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.  But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.  God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing.  Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?

So those millions of christians that baptize their babies--they're just wrong?  Likewise, those who claim that "Jesus is the ONLY way into heaven", they're wrong too?  You don't have to follow Jesus to get into heaven, you can also die young (so why protest abortion, then?).

If christians can't get their theology straight among themselves, how do you expect the rest of us to?


Quote
But a grown man who has willfully rejected God and knowingly decided to go against God, then when he dies, he does NOT get to go to heaven.


Well, for once, I agree.  But not for the same reasons you're thinking.  Your god doesn't exist, thus, there is no heaven or hell.   When we die, we will almost certainly cease to exist.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 30, 2012, 12:17:28 PM
Well, you can't expect every person to be 100% correct in their doctrine, can you?
No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality





 There are many things "Christians" do that I don't believe they should. 

Confession as Catholics do is NOT Biblical.

You can't just say, "Hell is eternal punishment in the lake of fire!" without really studying Scripture.  You can't take people's word for the TRUTH without actually examining if it's true or not.  I don't see Uncle Joe suffering in a lake of fire for eternity as a just punishment for not accepting God.  Does this seem like a think God would do?  No.  It's kinda silly to think of yourself sitting in heaven after a trillion years and still be thinking of Uncle Joe screaming in pain down in hell, doesn't it?  Now where in Scripture does it say that hell is eternal torture of burning flesh?

But your OneTrue brand of Christianity is different. And how are we to test that it is correct? Heck why limit it to Christianity, what about all those other brands of afterlife insurance, I mean religions out there?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: rockv12 on March 30, 2012, 12:32:38 PM

Children can understand things, that's not what I said.  But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.  We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.  But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.  God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing.  Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?

So those millions of christians that baptize their babies--they're just wrong?  Likewise, those who claim that "Jesus is the ONLY way into heaven", they're wrong too?  You don't have to follow Jesus to get into heaven, you can also die young (so why protest abortion, then?).

If christians can't get their theology straight among themselves, how do you expect the rest of us to?


You really expect everyone to believe the exact same thing?

Yes, baptizing babies is a fun little ceremony, but NOT necessary or Scriptural.  The Catholic church made up this along with many other non-Biblical practices. 

Why protest abortion?  Hey, the kid gets a free pass to heaven, as do mentally retarded people.  That's great!  But, no, we are not going to kill kids to send them to heaven....good grief.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: rockv12 on March 30, 2012, 12:34:24 PM

No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality


Contradictions?  Where?  If you've studied the Bible more than me, please enlighten me to these contradictions.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Aaron123 on March 30, 2012, 12:48:50 PM
You really expect everyone to believe the exact same thing?

As I said, if If christians can't get their theology straight, how do you expect the rest of us to?

If the religion is so disjointed, then you need to straighten it among yourself before trying to convert the rest of us.


Quote
Why protest abortion?  Hey, the kid gets a free pass to heaven, as do mentally retarded people.  That's great!  But, no, we are not going to kill kids to send them to heaven....good grief.

I certainly don't advocate killing kids for the heck of it, but if aborted fetus gets a free ride to heaven, then protesting abortions is pretty stupid.  Just saying...

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on March 30, 2012, 12:51:36 PM
poor OneTrueChristan. Doesn't even know his bible. 

Let's see. God claims that humans will never ever ever be able to find the city of Tyre or even any remains of it.  Tyre is a city of about a quarter million people and we know quite a bit about its history since we have the ruins under and around it. Hailstones aren't kept in magical warehouses. No global flood happened. The bible contradicts *reality*. 

In contradicting itself, the bible can't figure out what it wants JC to have done before the cruxifiction.  John has him all "bring it on"; Luke has JC being so afraid and reluctant he sweats blood. 

The "thieves" on the crosses make fun of JC or one of them wants to go with him. 

Nothing about freewill in the bible so contradicting your claims, rockv.  It never can quite make up who gets into heaven at all.

The apostles are either hiding or going to the temple to celebrate after the cruxifiction.

Either JC ran around doing all sorts of things for months after the cruxifiction or went to right to heaven.

and on and on.....  The bible can't get things straight.  The sects of Christianity can't agree on things.  And you want us to think that there is some god presiding over some truth that you all claim to have, all sure that you and only you know what your god "really meant".  ROFL.  All of this confusion does two things to your religion: if god exists, it love confusion and the deaths and harm it causes, definitely not a nice being, making your religion worhsiping a nutcase; and makes it more likely that it's just humanity's foibels that have made up such BS and no god at all is needed.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 30, 2012, 12:57:46 PM

No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality


Contradictions?  Where?  If you've studied the Bible more than me, please enlighten me to these contradictions.

My particular favorites are Judas dying two different ways, The order of Creation varing, and is it 2 animal or 7 animals on Noah's Ark

But to give a few concrete quotes:

God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

[Editor's note: Some readers have raised an objection to this alleged contradiction. They point out that PSA 145:20 states that The Lord keeps all who love Him, but that He will destroy the wicked. In other words, some see no contradiction between "The Lord is good to all" and JER 13:14. Others contend, however, that even if the Lord destroys the wicked he could do so with compassion, pity, and mercy. Further, there are biblical examples that indicate that the Lord is not necessarily "good" or merciful--even to those who are not wicked. One such example is Job. As one reader points out, "If Psalm 145:9 was not a contradiction of Psalm 145:20 or Jeremiah 13:14, it would read something like this: "The LORD is good to all, except the wicked: and his tender mercies are over all his works, except when He is punishing the wicked." In any case, the idea that the Lord is good and merciful is contradicted by countless examples in the Bible where God orders the destruction of infants, personally kills David's infant child, etc.]


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War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


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Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


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Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


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Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


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Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


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How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


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Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."


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Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


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The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
_________________________________________________________
Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

_____________________________________________________________

Earth supported?
JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

_________________________________________________________________
Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Note that there are "days," "evenings," and "mornings" before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim," which is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods." In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that "it was good."

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)

___________________________________________________________________________________

Moses' personality
NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."

____________________________________________________________________________________

Righteous live?
PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."


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ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."


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Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."


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Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."


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Years of famine
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;


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Moved David to anger?
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


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The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.


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God be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)


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CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)


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Tempts?
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)


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Judas died how?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)


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Ascend to heaven
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)


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What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
Before the cock crow - MAT 26:34

Before the cock crow twice - MAR 14:30


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How many times did the cock crow?
MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.


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How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.


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Does every man sin?
1KI 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2CH 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


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Who bought potter's field
ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.


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Who bears guilt?
GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.


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Do you answer a fool?
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


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How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:


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How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.


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Marriage?
Proverbs 18:22
1 Corinthians 7 (whole book. See 1,2,27,39,40)

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Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.


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Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

(various traipsings)


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How many apostles were in office between the resurrection and ascension?
1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
MAT 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
ACT 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)

MAT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.


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Judging
1 Cor 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV)

1 Cor 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."


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Good deeds
Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)


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For or against?
MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)


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Whom did they see at the tomb?
MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.


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God change?
MAL 3:6
JAS 1:17
1SA 15:29
JON 3:10
GEN 6:6


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Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)
MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)


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Who's sepulchers
ACT 7:16
GEN 23:17,18


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Strong drink?
PRO 31:6,7
JOH 2:11-11


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When second coming?
MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(See also 1TH 4:15-18)


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Solomon's overseers
1KI 9:23 550
2CH 8:10 250


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The mother of Abijah:
2CH 11:20 Maachah the daughter of Absalom

2CH 13:2 Michaiah the daughter of Uriel


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When did Baasha die?
1KI 16:6-8 26th year of the reign of Asa

2CH 16:1 36th year of the reign of Asa


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How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
2KI 8:26 22

2CH 22:2 42


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The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah.

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What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
MAT 27:28 scarlet

JOH 19:2 purple


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What did they give him to drink?
MAT 27:34 vinegar

MAR 15:23 wine with myrrh


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How long was Jesus in the tomb?
Depends where you look; MAT 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will spend "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," and MAR 10:34 has "after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again." As far as I can see from a quick look, the prophecies have "after three days," but the post-Resurrection narratives have "on the third day."

Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 30, 2012, 01:01:56 PM
poor OneTrueChristan. Doesn't even know his bible. 

Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof yours is real and theirs is not?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: velkyn on March 30, 2012, 01:09:01 PM
Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof your is real and theirs is not?
indeed.  that's been asked of him more than once.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: One Above All on March 30, 2012, 01:10:40 PM
Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof your is real and theirs is not?
indeed.  that's been asked of him more than once.

By his logic[1], that means that his ideas are wrong.
 1. For lack of a better term.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 30, 2012, 01:14:51 PM
Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof your is real and theirs is not?
indeed.  that's been asked of him more than once.
Not to mention we've had now THREE different Christians in this thread bring up the moved goalpost of "age of accountability" and NOT ONE of them have addressed my "One second before versus one second after this magic age determines their eternal fate" adjustment to the new goalposts. It is like they didn't even bother reading the thread.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: jynnan tonnix on March 30, 2012, 03:44:58 PM
Does god have a plan? If he does, and is omniscient, knowing every decision every person will make -- such as having an abortion -- then the abortion must be according to god's plan. Else there is always the risk (for god) of the plan coming apart at the seams when some person vital to his plan is mistakenly aborted.

Every murderer must be acting according to god's plan as well, else a whole lot more people potentially invaluable to god's plan are wiped out. Heck, genocide must definitely be part of it, since there's no way such wholesale slaughter wouldn't affect at least a few people with the potential of making significant improvements to the human condition.

There's simply no way to reconcile a universal "plan" with the notion that we have any sort of free will. If god is sitting there constantly readjusting things when a future genius bites the dust, then he is not omniscient. If he knows in advance how everything will turn out, then he has predetermined who will be instrumental and meddled with a lot of free will (in both that individual's life and that of those who interact with him) in making sure the plan comes to fruition.

If he is simply watching knowing how everything will turn out, then there can be no plan.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: kin hell on March 30, 2012, 09:19:55 PM

No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality


Contradictions?  Where?  If you've studied the Bible more than me, please enlighten me to these contradictions.


It's rock and roll you idiot ...... not rock and troll.



(http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/bibleContra_bigger.jpg)
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: naemhni on March 31, 2012, 05:13:24 PM
You really expect everyone to believe the exact same thing?

You really expect them not to?

Can you name any other field of study or inquiry where there's such overwhelming disagreement between so many large groups of people?  Do doctors debate over how many bones there are in the human body?  How often do physicists argue over Newtonian mechanics?  How many aerospace engineers argue that the curve of the wing should be on the bottom, rather than the top, because it will please a supernatural being?

Why is it that people who study the natural world agree on virtually everything they see?  Why is it that, in the relatively few areas where they disagree, they attempt to resolve the disagreement with further investigation and study, instead of sitting around quoting old books at each other?

Why is it only the realm of religion where you can see differences as gargantuan as those between the Roman Catholic Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Christian Scientists -- differences that never get resolved, by the way -- all coming from one book?  There should be no disagreement at all, especially if that book is divinely inspired by an omnimax being.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Energized on March 31, 2012, 07:37:30 PM
Quote from: rockv12
  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?

No, actually it doesn't. He'd rather have the ancestor of Christ sing praises about dashing infans on rocks.

Psalm 137 vs 9.

Face it, dude - it is impossible to know the mind of god when he's so obviously INCONSISTENT. So why do you bother to try?

E.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: DumpsterFire on April 01, 2012, 03:38:53 AM
when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.
So by this logic the worst thing a Christian could possibly do would be to spread the gospel to traditionally non-Christian parts of the world, thereby robbing those folks who are completely ignorant of Christ of their automatic ticket to heaven. Think about it, Christians. The moment you educate a previously uninformed person about Jesus, you instantly force him (per the above commonly held belief) to choose Christianity or burn in hell. Not a very Christian thing to do, is it?
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: naemhni on April 01, 2012, 07:11:30 AM
when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.
So by this logic the worst thing a Christian could possibly do would be to spread the gospel to traditionally non-Christian parts of the world, thereby robbing those folks who are completely ignorant of Christ of their automatic ticket to heaven. Think about it, Christians. The moment you educate a previously uninformed person about Jesus, you instantly force him (per the above commonly held belief) to choose Christianity or burn in hell. Not a very Christian thing to do, is it?

Extending it even further, it also means that the best thing God could have done would be to have never allowed the Bible to be created at all, right?  That way, no one would ever hear the "good news", and thus everyone would be saved.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: JeffPT on April 01, 2012, 07:39:00 AM
Extending it even further, it also means that the best thing God could have done would be to have never allowed the Bible to be created at all, right?  That way, no one would ever hear the "good news", and thus everyone would be saved.

Plus, I'd probably still have my foreskin. 

I miss you foreskin! 
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: kin hell on April 01, 2012, 08:11:54 AM
Interesting that god must've exercised freewill when he created the concept (and accoutrements) of evil.......
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Eaten by Bears on April 01, 2012, 08:12:53 AM
Extending it even further, it also means that the best thing God could have done would be to have never allowed the Bible to be created at all, right?  That way, no one would ever hear the "good news", and thus everyone would be saved.

So we atheists are actually working for the benefit of God by trying to stamp out religion.

Christians should be supporting us. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: gonegolfing on April 03, 2012, 08:38:45 AM

Quote
You teach them what you believe.  You can't start teaching a child language at the age of 12. Am I seriously having to explain this?

No, you do not have to explain.......you're embarrassing yourself.

What if the idea your teaching them is wrong, or a lie, or as you're fully aware--has no basis in reality ? Why fill a child's mind with the ancient reasoning of ignoramuses and savages just because you feel it's true ? Why expose your mind to him and at the same time try to make him become as credulous, fearful, wishful, and close minded as you ? Is this the type of thing that a wise father does to a small child ? Does a rational father teach a child to be solipsistic and bigoted to believe that they are the most special thing in the universe, when reality tells the father, and eventually the child, different ?

Have you explained to your child that a baby born with a cleft pallate today is a result of two ignoramuses unknowing disobedience in a garden 7000 years ago ? 


Quote
Children can understand things, that's not what I said. But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.

Wrong bucko. It takes faith. Faith alone is the fuel you're running on and so if your lame brain can't figure out the god idea, then a child's mind most certainly cannot and never will. If your child eventually makes the mistake of god belief he'll have done it the exact same way that you did. Blind faith. Your lust after an abstract, incoherent and primitive human idea filled with phantoms and fantasy has no business being transferred to your child. Leave the kid alone.

Quote
We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.

What god ? What is a god ? Listen Einstein, you haven't even proved that a god--whatever that is-- exists and you're giving it a job description ? You've made one thing perfectly clear: your piffle is no different than all others before you.

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But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.

Seems ? A child cannot get the god idea, get used to that ! You can only wish that they could, but it's not going to happen and a parent forcing that pernicious drivel belief of theirs into a child's brain and then confessing that he cannot get it shows just how poisonous religious belief is.

Can you not see the foolishness and contradiction in what you're saying ? You're saying that a child cannot seemingly get the abstract and incoherent god idea that has no basis in reality, but we need to, without its consent, pollute the child's mind with it simply because it's a belief of the parent.

Typical devious ownership mentality. You'll do what you want with the child's mind, after all, it is yours for the manipulating.   

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God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing. Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.

There you go again ! What god ? You need to stop opining on something that you have no idea of and whether it's true or not. There is currently no evidence whatsoever of a deity/s existing in our reality and faith does not prove that it is outside of that reality either. Please stop. 

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But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?  But a grown man who has willfully rejected God and knowingly decided to go against God, then when he dies, he does NOT get to go to heaven.

You disgust me. Not only do you not have proof of a god, you do not have proof of a hell or heaven either. Your constant idiocy in assuming and declaring the nature and intentions of a god while having not a clue about the truth of such abstract and vile ideas as god and hell, should shame you. Any being going to such a hideous place as the supposed hell, does not fit the idea of a god who is loving, merciful, and full of grace--a god who is deeply concerned about the well being of his creatures and would that none should perish

God commands us to forgive always. What's his problem then ?

Do you think that the children that mocked Elisha and who god himself slew are in heaven right now ? If so, and if they really are, then god rewarded them for their sin and in fact they got an early gift from god and are enjoying an eternity of bliss right now. What's a little pain for a lot of gain !

According to your theory, it would be better to sin as a child, and save yourself from a hard life and get your reward early.

Ridiculous and disgusting shit indeed.
Title: Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
Post by: Hatter23 on April 12, 2012, 11:03:20 AM
Rockv12, I still see you are active on other threads. Once again, do you have proof that your OneTrue brand of Christianity is real, and that other ones are not?