whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 06:44:15 AM

Title: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 06:44:15 AM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.

Oh before going ahead, I am a Hindu-Agnostic-Theist and have been an atheist till recently until I felt HE must exist because of some things which i came across... So, now you know what sort of a guy I am religiously speaking, from that...

So yes, I feel that there might be more than one life for every living entity, and no i do not want to define life.

If you commit a bad deed, or a crime you have to pay for it. The idea of punishment is not clear to me and i cannot define it, but a fair god will punish on the same plate as your crime.... Sometimes, it might be your chance to penance and if you hurt somebody seriously in this life, you might be in a life that has to serve the other in the next life...

I do not submit to the idea that if you confess all your crimes, then you will get free of the sins.. That is quite something from a GOD if it does happen, right..? You kill a thousand people or do any crime however small or big, and in the end just confess to your bishop or pastor or whatever and you get to go to heaven if you praise the God..? That i quite too convenient.

I do not think so because i do not subscribe to BULLS(hit) Magazine, i subscribe to The Entrepreneur and The Economist..

Now, i do not think a real God would want to praise him and worship him so as to get us to heaven... I believe in a just and fair God. I believe that if God does exist, then he will be an ever encompassing energy that is the universe and everything. Yes, that is if he does exist....

The question WHY GOD WONT CURE AMPUTEES is not relevant if you consider it in Hinduist faith, but is in Christian faith. So, from that perspective i submit that my post here might have some merit to the reader. Thank you.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: plethora on January 25, 2011, 07:10:23 AM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.

...or maybe because he doesn't exist.

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Oh before going ahead, I am a Hindu-Agnostic-Theist and have been an atheist till recently until I felt HE must exist because of some things which i came across... So, now you know what sort of a guy I am religiously speaking, from that...

hmm... we don't get many of those here. In fact, I don't remember a single one. That's kinda cool ... though your beliefs no less false that any other religion.

Please tell me exactly whhat things you came accross that made you a theist... is there any evidence in those things?

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So yes, I feel that there might be more than one life for every living entity, and no i do not want to define life.

If you commit a bad deed, or a crime you have to pay for it. The idea of punishment is not clear to me and i cannot define it, but a fair god will punish on the same plate as your crime.... Sometimes, it might be your chance to penance and if you hurt somebody seriously in this life, you might be in a life that has to serve the other in the next life...

So you believe in a sense of "justice" ... I can see the appeal... what I can't see is the evidence for such a claim.

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I do not submit to the idea that if you confess all your crimes, then you will get free of the sins.. That is quite something from a GOD if it does happen, right..? You kill a thousand people or do any crime however small or big, and in the end just confess to your bishop or pastor or whatever and you get to go to heaven if you praise the God..? That i quite too convenient.

I'm definitely all for people being accountable for their actions... but that's why we have laws and enforce them including punishment for murder. If someone kills a member of my family, I'm not going to lay back and wait for a god to make justice happen in some other life. I expect this person to be punished by spending the rest of this life in jail. Unfortunately, there is a huge lack of justice in this world... but only we can change that if we all work together as a species.

Sitting around waiting for god to sort everything out in this life or the next is nothing but wishful thinking and it may actually prevent people from taking action to ensure justice is served where it is due.

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I do not think so because i do not subscribe to BULLS(hit) Magazine, i subscribe to The Entrepreneur and The Economist..

Ok... totally irrelevant comment...

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Now, i do not think a real God would want to praise him and worship him so as to get us to heaven... I believe in a just and fair God. I believe that if God does exist, then he will be an ever encompassing energy that is the universe and everything. Yes, that is if he does exist....

You are making baseless claims with no evidence. You're just saying what you think a hypothetical god's properties and intentions would be.

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The question WHY GOD WONT CURE AMPUTEES is not relevant if you consider it in Hinduist faith, but is in Christian faith. So, from that perspective i submit that my post here might have some merit to the reader. Thank you.

So you're saying that when a child is born in africa, suffers misery and pain all its life and dies of disease and malnutrition at the age of 4 ... they actually deserve this???

You think this child is serving out punishment from a past life? You think a loving god should submit anyone to such inhumane and immoral conditions as punishment?

... and here's the million dollar question... should we help these starving children? Or should we just leave them to suffer in the belief that they actually deserve it somehow?

Think about the moral implications of what you're saying.

...and which comes first? The bad deed and then the punishment? or are there cases where people suffer unjustly and then get a reward in a later life?

I ask because I can think of the opposite scenario where the sufferer does not deserve it. For example... a child is raped by an adult. Assuming no justice is done by law enforcement... does this mean that the rapist will be punished in the next life? Will he be molested as a child to balance things out?

... and the original molested child who didn't deserve it... does he then get rewarded in the next life? How the hell does that make the fact that he got raped any better?

That sucks and I would definitely not think that is a good and just god.

It seems to me that your are decribing an endless cycle of inflicting suffering and then experience suffering. That's hardly a good system for a deity is it?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 07:14:18 AM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life.

Typical blame the victim.  Since the person has no knowledge of said "past life," the punishment is Unjust and the god responsible EVIL.

Gentlemen give no regard, let alone worship, to the EVIL.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 07:17:07 AM
... and here's the million dollar question... should we help these starving children? Or should we just leave them to suffer in the belief that they actually deserve it somehow?

Clearly you would thwart the will of this god if you help them.

In fact, I am going to beat some random people in the gutter--particularly that crying child--because, damn it, he deserves it.

I am doing Divine Will. . . .

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 07:24:31 AM
hmm... we don't get many of those here. In fact, I don't remember a single one. That's kinda cool ... though your beliefs no less false that any other religion.

Please tell me exactly whhat things you came accross that made you a theist... is there any evidence in those things?

No, i cannot put before you solid evidence to it. Even if i say what happened an atheist will be right in saying that it attributes to luck and i am just inclined to have faith than consider myself lucky.. If i can provide even a bit of explanation to that thing, i will bring it here. For now, let it be my fantasy. :)


So you're saying that when a child is born in africa, suffers misery and pain all its life and dies of disease and malnutrition at the age of 4 ... they actually deserve this???

You think this child is serving out punishment from a past life? You think a loving god should submit anyone to such inhumane and immoral conditions as punishment?

... and here's the million dollar question... should we help these starving children? Or should we just leave them to suffer in the belief that they actually deserve it somehow?

Think about the moral implications of what you're saying.

...and which comes first? The bad deed and then the punishment? or are there cases where people suffer unjustly and then get a reward in a later life?

I ask because I can think of the opposite scenario where the sufferer does not deserve it. For example... a child is raped by an adult. Assuming no justice is done by law enforcement... does this mean that the rapist will be punished in the next life? Will he be molested as a child to balance things out?

... and the original molested child who didn't deserve it... does he then get rewarded in the next life? How the hell does that make the fact that he got raped any better?

That sucks and I would definitely not think that is a good and just god.

It seems to me that your are decribing an endless cycle of inflicting suffering and then experience suffering. That's hardly a good system for a deity is it?

You can chose to help them. If they were being given a blind punishment for their crimes, then they could have been sent to hell or something. They are sent back to Earth because other people get a chance to do good deeds and/or redeem their own crimes, do a good thing. So yes, we should help others, no matter what...

The original molested child might have committed a similar punishment.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 07:27:30 AM

Typical blame the victim.  Since the person has no knowledge of said "past life," the punishment is Unjust and the god responsible EVIL.

Gentlemen give no regard, let alone worship, to the EVIL.

--J.D.

Is it really UNJUST? So, if a mass murderer lost his memory completely because of some disease or accident, will it be unjust to punish him legally..?
... and here's the million dollar question... should we help these starving children? Or should we just leave them to suffer in the belief that they actually deserve it somehow?

Clearly you would thwart the will of this god if you help them.

In fact, I am going to beat some random people in the gutter--particularly that crying child--because, damn it, he deserves it.

I am doing Divine Will. . . .

--J.D.

No. One should not. They are being put into this world in front of us so that we help them. If their crimes were so cruel as not to merit even a speck of sympathy, they wouldn't be put in front of us in this world..
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 07:27:35 AM
Remains a disgusting fairy tale.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 07:30:57 AM
Is it really UNJUST?

Yes.  He is, for all intents and purposes, the same as one who has done no evil.

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So, if a mass murderer lost his memory completely because of some disease or accident, will it be unjust to punish him legally..?

Review your case law.  The only ones who lose their "memory completely"--who are not malingering or suffering a conversion reaction which is easily demonstrated--how do they remember language?--are too demented to be in prison. 

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No. One should not.

I am the Agent of Your God [Tm.--Ed.].  Who are you to question My Divine Justice?

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If their crimes were so cruel as not to merit even a speck of sympathy, they wouldn't be put in front of us in this world..

Rather contradicts your claims above.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Nick on January 25, 2011, 07:41:20 AM
Not ONE single amputee deserves healing.  I guess if you are an amputee you must be a really bad person.  I plan to stay away from them.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 25, 2011, 07:42:18 AM
Edited to remove unnecessary quote blocks. Please do not quote more than is needed.

I guess this is why India is still majorly underdeveloped: Judging everyone too much. Just because Hinduism happens to be one of, if not, the oldest religion in the world today does not mean it's correct. The gods are no more real than any other god. And not trying to help people in need just because your religion tells you that they reincarnated that way because they did bad things in the past is horrible, unethical, and inhumane; plus, there's no proof or evidence of reincarnation. The world need not be cruel to everyone. It helps to aid others who truly need help more than ever. It makes the world a better place, so that more civilizations can thrive.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: plethora on January 25, 2011, 07:48:05 AM
No, i cannot put before you solid evidence to it. Even if i say what happened an atheist will be right in saying that it attributes to luck and i am just inclined to have faith than consider myself lucky.. If i can provide even a bit of explanation to that thing, i will bring it here. For now, let it be my fantasy. :)

Kudos for honesty, if nothing else.

As far as your beliefs, we might as well be discussing how Santa Claus delivers all those presents all over the world in one night on a tiny little sleigh. It's a fantasy ... it's magic! You can make up anything you want ...

This "karma" type system you believe in sucks, explains nothing and is despicably immoral.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: plethora on January 25, 2011, 07:54:04 AM
Clearly you would thwart the will of this god if you help them.

In fact, I am going to beat some random people in the gutter--particularly that crying child--because, damn it, he deserves it.

I am doing Divine Will. . . .

--J.D.

Damn it X ... you always somehow manage to make me laugh in the middle of me being pissed off at someone else's despicably immoral ideas... :D +1
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 08:02:53 AM
I guess this is why India is still majorly underdeveloped: Judging everyone too much. Just because Hinduism happens to be one of, if not, the oldest religion in the world today does not mean it's correct. The gods are no more real than any other god. And not trying to help people in need just because your religion tells you that they reincarnated that way because they did bad things in the past is horrible, unethical, and inhumane; plus, there's no proof or evidence of reincarnation. The world need not be cruel to everyone. It helps to aid others who truly need help more than ever. It makes the world a better place, so that more civilizations can thrive.

Majority of what you said is true, but i have provided my reasonings to these above and wouldn't repeat it as it might be regarded as spamming.

We should always help people in need, no matter what their crimes might have been or have not been. Reincarnated or not, judging people like that is not what i meant from my post above.

I am here to try and question my faith so that i can be sure whether to believe or not to. For me, it would be good to have a fair omnipotent, overseeing everything. And one of my latest fantasies incline me to believe. I want to question that, challenge that, and get some sense into me. That is the reason behind my posts and i appreciate all the above posts...

Is it really UNJUST?

Yes.  He is, for all intents and purposes, the same as one who has done no evil.

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So, if a mass murderer lost his memory completely because of some disease or accident, will it be unjust to punish him legally..?

Review your case law.  The only ones who lose their "memory completely"--who are not malingering or suffering a conversion reaction which is easily demonstrated--how do they remember language?--are too demented to be in prison. 


I did not understand what Doctor X said about law in his post...So, is such criminals actually not punished..?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on January 25, 2011, 08:05:46 AM
To the OP, why is it that you prefer to invent a possibility, when it is plainly more obvious that there can be no good or loving or caring god at the controls.  God is imaginary, isn't it far more obvious and a much better explanation than yours?  If not, why not?

You are wrapped up in different delusions, and you are blending them together to satisfy your delusion.  Why?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 08:06:12 AM
Not ONE single amputee deserves healing.  I guess if you are an amputee you must be a really bad person.  I plan to stay away from them.

Indeed, they should not even be allowed to vote (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=8274).

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 08:07:56 AM
Not ONE single amputee deserves healing.  I guess if you are an amputee you must be a really bad person.  I plan to stay away from them.

Indeed, they should not even be allowed to vote (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=8274).

--J.D.

That is taking it too far. I never mentioned anything like that. I even repeated myself many times. It is for us to help them that they are punished in this world.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 08:08:15 AM
Damn it X ... you always somehow manage to make me laugh in the middle of me being pissed off at someone else's despicably immoral ideas... :D +1

I am a RIVER to my people. . . .

--J. "For El Lawrence, Mercy is a Passion, for Me it is Merely Good Manners" D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: plethora on January 25, 2011, 08:14:30 AM
I did not understand what Doctor X said about law in his post...So, is such criminals actually not punished..?

If it can be proven that they are mentally unfit they are not punished but given treatment instead (i.e. put in a secure mental hospital). The memory loss would have to be massive and other basic functions would need to be affected. A qualified doctor would need to make the evaluation by observation and testing over a period of several days. There's no way to get away with pretending to be insane for several days in a row.

... but for example, if a guy gets super drunk and rapes a woman but can't remember a damn thing, he is still responsible because the actions he took leading to the crime are his responsibility.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: plethora on January 25, 2011, 08:17:28 AM
^^^ but according to your beliefs we don't need to punish anyone ourselves. Your god will sort it all out, right? So let the criminals run free! (sarcasm)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 08:20:48 AM
Not ONE single amputee deserves healing.  I guess if you are an amputee you must be a really bad person.  I plan to stay away from them.

Indeed, they should not even be allowed to vote (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=8274).

That is taking it too far. I never mentioned anything like that. I even repeated myself many times. It is for us to help them that they are punished in this world.

But our mercy lessens their punishment which only thwarts your god's will!

What do you hate your god?

--J.D.

P.S. (http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u264/DoctorX_photos/3434a346.jpg)

"You must try, Comrade Zilkov, to cultivate a sense of humor!"
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 08:22:31 AM
^^^ but according to your beliefs we don't need to punish anyone ourselves. Your god will sort it all out, right? So let the criminals run free! (sarcasm)

NO. Maybe God made us make the law and punish them so that we be autonomous.... (even more sarcasm). if our punishment is less than or is never coveted on the criminal, he oversees it. LOL.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 08:27:02 AM
And maybe I am Nicole Kidman's Official Snuggle Bunny.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on January 25, 2011, 08:30:53 AM
^^^ but according to your beliefs we don't need to punish anyone ourselves. Your god will sort it all out, right? So let the criminals run free! (sarcasm)

NO. Maybe God made us make the law and punish them so that we be autonomous.... (even more sarcasm). if our punishment is less than or is never coveted on the criminal, he oversees it. LOL.

Stop saying "maybe", and perhaps give me a response to my reply to you from here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17574.msg389084.html#msg389084 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17574.msg389084.html#msg389084)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 09:15:53 AM

Stop saying "maybe", and perhaps give me a response to my reply to you from here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17574.msg389084.html#msg389084 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17574.msg389084.html#msg389084)

Why should i stop saying maybe..? I said before too. I want to confirm whether my recently acquired faith stands or fails. I want to be sure of myself. So let us do constructive debating to help me find out a logical truth....

And to answer your question.... I think that there is some chance. And i want to ascertain whether the chance is obvious of its reality or not. Help me in that attempt. This forum has a lot of people who are sure of the idea that God is not there and i too believe somewhat in that line. But some factors induced in me a change, recently. I want to be sure of somethings, and that is why i came here. A constructive positive debate would help me.

Doctor X is missing wide off the mark - He thinks i am just another spammer.

And maybe I am Nicole Kidman's Official Snuggle Bunny.

--J.D.

Are you missing wide off the mark..? Maybe i am not smart enough to make out the meaning of your one sentence diabolicals...
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on January 25, 2011, 09:18:12 AM

Why should i stop saying maybe..? I said before too. I want to confirm whether my recently acquired faith stands or fails. I want to be sure of myself. So let us do constructive debating to help me find out a logical truth....


So, you don't accept that God is imaginary?  Or that all gods are imaginary, as the best possible explanation for all of the non-sense related to explanation of religions and their gods?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 09:21:46 AM
So, you don't accept that God is imaginary?  Or that all gods are imaginary, as the best possible explanation for all of the non-sense related to explanation of religions and their gods?

My wit said to me that all this GOD thing is shit. I never believed or expected myself to believe before...

But the issue is that now i am confronted with a possibility that it might not be imaginary. If you are thinking that this might eb the ramblings of an old man about to die, then I am 22 yrs old only.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 09:27:31 AM
Doctor X is missing wide off the mark - He thinks i am just another spammer.

You spammed, son.  You can either repent of it or keep bitching about it.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 09:29:40 AM
You spammed, son.  You can either repent of it or keep bitching about it.

--J.D.

In a way my post was spammy, yes. I agree and i repent...

I am still confused as to many of your posts. I couldn't make many of them...  &)
That was i kept at it, asking... Sorry on that too.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Tykster on January 25, 2011, 09:33:24 AM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.


A couple of questions regarding reincarnation :

What specific mechanisms are involved in becoming reincarnated?

How is the form of reincarnation decided upon? i.e. what/who/what kind of conditions determine that you return as e.g. a bird or a worm?

If you have answers to the 2 previous questions, please cite your sources, thanks. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on January 25, 2011, 09:36:33 AM
So, you don't accept that God is imaginary?  Or that all gods are imaginary, as the best possible explanation for all of the non-sense related to explanation of religions and their gods?

My wit said to me that all this GOD thing is s**t. I never believed or expected myself to believe before...

But the issue is that now i am confronted with a possibility that it might not be imaginary. If you are thinking that this might eb the ramblings of an old man about to die, then I am 22 yrs old only.

And I am confronting you with the OBVIOUS reality that there is no god, there never has been a god, there never will be a god, and that the entire god concept is a man-made mess.  How can you refute my point?  Do it.  Please share anything that would contradict my position.  It matters not how old you are.

Humans invented gods to explain the unknown, to comfort the grieving, and to enslave the masses with a higher authority.  Do you have something in your knowledge that refutes this clearly?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
I am still confused as to many of your posts.

You merely needed to ask honestly and cease trying to force your opinions and prejudices upon others.

Quote
&)

Like that.

--J. "My Secrets are Not Sold Cheaply" D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Omen on January 25, 2011, 09:38:55 AM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life.

Why hold someone responsible for actions that they have no control over nor even the ability change those conditions?

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It could be that.

It cannot if you're god belief is defined as 'good' in an absolute manner.  The problem of evil would still be readily apparent, with just a different narcissistic psychotic super being at the controls.  Punishment for past lives would entail afflicting innocents for what they themselves have no control over or even responsibility to address, since in every conceivable way it is totally disconnected from them as a person.  Why have past lives and be responsible for them, if you have no memory, choice, or say in how that life is lived.

You might as well punish a child for the sin of the father. ( just like punishing all of humanity for the sins of adam and eve ).


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Oh before going ahead, I am a Hindu-Agnostic-Theist and have been an atheist till recently until I felt HE must exist because of some things which i came across... So, now you know what sort of a guy I am religiously speaking, from that...

Not really.

I know that you make up bizarre rationale without much consideration, inserting them as if they need to be considered without proper analysis.  I also know that you claim to have some context for providing a reason to believe, but you notably avoid telling us what that is.

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So yes, I feel ..

I'm not encouraged to care when you make arbitrary assertions that you admit

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and no i do not want to define life.

You will neither define nor support.

You might as well be listing your belief in the easter bunny, transformers, and the fact that leprechauns make the moon go around the earth.

Why do you think arbitrarily making assertions inseparable from make believe is logical?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 09:45:43 AM
He has a personal title that states he believes in a "logical" god.

So it must be logical.  Just like wearing a hat makes you a lion tamer. . . .

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 25, 2011, 10:00:35 AM
I guess this is why India is still majorly underdeveloped: Judging everyone too much. Just because Hinduism happens to be one of, if not, the oldest religion in the world today does not mean it's correct. The gods are no more real than any other god. And not trying to help people in need just because your religion tells you that they reincarnated that way because they did bad things in the past is horrible, unethical, and inhumane; plus, there's no proof or evidence of reincarnation. The world need not be cruel to everyone. It helps to aid others who truly need help more than ever. It makes the world a better place, so that more civilizations can thrive.

Majority of what you said is true, but i have provided my reasonings to these above and wouldn't repeat it as it might be regarded as spamming.

We should always help people in need, no matter what their crimes might have been or have not been. Reincarnated or not, judging people like that is not what i meant from my post above.

I am here to try and question my faith so that i can be sure whether to believe or not to. For me, it would be good to have a fair omnipotent, overseeing everything. And one of my latest fantasies incline me to believe. I want to question that, challenge that, and get some sense into me. That is the reason behind my posts and i appreciate all the above posts...

Alright, thank you for clarifying as to why you are here. Remember though, just in case; if you're going to make extraordinary claims, provide extraordinary evidence.  As for "logical" god, a god that does not care doesn't very logical at all. By the way, a bit irrelevant, but let me say it anyway: there is a Hindu god (Shiva, god of destruction, I think) that dances on top of a baby while holding a knife and other items. I never knew what to make of that... Some gods (one a female warrior) are very violent in nature and their stories repulsive. So repulsive that it already would drive me away from Hinduism.

Another thing about Hinduism that bothers me if the way you have to reach moksha, in order to beat the samsaric cycle (the cycle of reincarnation). Starving yourself? Endless meditating? Making your body do things that it normally wouldn't be able to do? The idea of being inhumane to oneself is preposterous.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on January 25, 2011, 10:35:40 AM
He has a personal title that states he believes in a "logical" god.

So it must be logical.  Just like wearing a hat makes you a lion tamer. . . .

Reminds me of that story about some guy who said something like, "I'm not prejudiced or anything, I just don't think blacks and whites should be allowed to marry each other."  Which in turn reminds me of the old joke usually attributed to Abraham Lincoln, "How many legs does a dog have if you count the tail as a leg?"
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 25, 2011, 11:03:02 AM
Indeed.

What I found most tragic was after his SPAM of "I Have t3h R34lz Hindu Deity!" he sort of assumed everyone who objected were "Christians."

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on January 25, 2011, 11:53:41 AM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.
  Let me ask, how does our past lives influenece our current ones if we dont' remember them at all?  It seems just more wishful thinking by a theist, that somehow there is some magical "justice" so they can ignore the problems of the world and do whatever they want.   I think Omen got it quite well.   

Quote
Oh before going ahead, I am a Hindu-Agnostic-Theist and have been an atheist till recently until I felt HE must exist because of some things which i came across... So, now you know what sort of a guy I am religiously speaking, from that...
what are these things?  I am afraid taht you will probably respond with the usual parlor tricks and coincidence that all theists do. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 12:58:32 PM
I am still confused as to many of your posts.

You merely needed to ask honestly and cease trying to force your opinions and prejudices upon others.

Quote
&)

Like that.

--J. "My Secrets are Not Sold Cheaply" D.

Agree upon that. I was too wayward of myself. Sorry sir.

@All posters in this thread

Assume a situation here - Person A is an atheist. Okay...? Hardcore atheist. Lover of science. Fan of Stephen Hawking and believes in String theory, even though he has no understanding beyond that of a science student.

If such a Person A happens to know that he had no way of living, none whatsoever. He has some sort of illness which has no known cure, only certain corrections and stoppages. There are some medicines, which will ease the pain, but still is incomprehensibly a cruel pain. Just staying awake is a nightmare. Searing pain all over the body, you cannot ever comprehend unless you have a similar disease....

Such a person, has decided to dispose of everything, and decides to end the pain by killing himself... Okay..?

So, this person is going about ready to meet his end. Decides to spend one last week of fun and happiness before leaving. Enjoys the time. Takes no medicine because he was sure that within a week all his misery will go away. Pain starts throbbing like his earlier years, when he had not taken any medicine, but still, he keeps control and spends time in the places he loves. P.S: He has no friends to meet and talk to because of his particular illness, he has been unable to get out much....

Then walking back home, on the third day, he decides to have a go at a nearby place of God, with an intention of silently cursing that unfair God if he did in deed exist. I was just pissed off my life, so i just went in to curse life and whatever.... The atmosphere was peaceful you know. An elephant inside the courtyard thrashing some palm leaves and chewing it on, so I sat there watching it. The poojari (brahmin priest) came to me and said - I do not see you around here ever...! What happened? I said that i was about to go join a distant university for higher studies and wanted to pray. he said, then lie down on the ground and with cupped hands, pray that everything be alright. I said that i cannot even sit properly in the place i am now because of some pain. He said, yes, i know, your mother told about you and prays for you daily. I said okay....

He said, if i am able to control and bear my pain for the few minutes that i sat there, try to lie on the ground, hands thrust forward and pray for wellness. He was a ranking old timer, might have hit 90+. So i chose not to defy his request, which was most probably the last, so i did what he asked me to. It was a temple of Shiva incarnated as Rajarajeshwara, so this is an act that is supposed to submit to him or something...

I got up, thanked him for the advices, took the prasad (ash made by burning dry cow dung) and rubbed it on my forehead and started walking back home. I noticed after opening the gate to my house that it did not pain me to touch the gate. Otherwise it would have been unbearable. I noted that i did not feel pain for sometime now but cannot remember when exactly it had gone.... I checked again removing my clothes and did not have any rash marks or anything which was usual when i wore clothes for a long time... It is quite funny in a way because i could never remember a day without pain before, and now i cannot remember what that pain was like....

I cannot prove any of this in anyway. in fact, i do not know what my problem was till now... I had serious headaches all my life, which made it worse than ever and in addition to it the full body pains prevented me from being a normal person. I have Keratoconus in addition to all this making me one hell of a fucking irritated maniac. I have not experienced any pain like i had before after that incident now. In fact, i have stopped taking my medications for pain relief (Pelladdone - They say it is derived from morphine).

I still have keratoconus though. So i am not sure if this is a cure or not. When i saw the doctor and told him of this, he says he cannot believe me. He said that it must be some side effects of taking pelladdone which is derived from morphine. He also asked me whether i have addiction to the medicine now, to which i said NO. He said that either i am mentally ill or i am lying. To this i told that i had thought about suicide and he is somewhat confirmed that i have gone nuts completely.

He talked to my parents about all this, and they are now roaming around me every few minutes looking at me. Dad gave me the Bhagavad Gita ro read and i have been doing that for the past few weeks. I tried to learn about what this effking guy called God is all about and i am now confused as ever.

Current situation
1. The person is not cured completely if you ask me. he still has Keratoconus.
2. No pain whatsoever than the occasional mild outcome of reading for long times together. (common with keratoconus)
3. No addiction to fucking morphine or pelladdone or whatever they call it.
4. All persons except my girl friend distrusts me and thinks i am nuts... (Why not my GF? Well it doesn't pain me now to touch her.... and she can see that in my eyes...)

Well, what do you expect from a person like this...? What should he do or believe in...? Logic says to him that it might be nothing, but should he be an ungrateful person if it was indeed the doing of some omnipotent...

This will be unbelievably preposterous and i admit that. No proves whatsoever. Is it, and might be a fantasy..?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 25, 2011, 01:01:47 PM
@All posters in this thread

...
This will be unbelievably preposterous and i admit that. No proves whatsoever. Is it, and might be a fantasy..?

That made no sense. What am I reading...? I'm sorry Dr. Viper, but this is a beyond ridiculous tale that hurts to read. There are no if's. There is no room for making up stories, because in the end, no gods are real. Atheists are not, and I repeat, not bitter nor angry at any god. Atheists just simply don't believe in any god. It is not a difficult concept.


Quote from: modbreak
unnecessary quoting removed
~screwtape
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 01:03:39 PM
What you are reading....?
I am not sure i understand your question....

Assuming that you are that person, what will you do...?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 25, 2011, 01:07:20 PM
What you are reading....?
I am not sure i understand your question....

Assuming that you are that person, what will you do...?

No. Just, no.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 01:10:24 PM
No. Just, no.

That you won't believe in a possible explanation of a supernatural or omnipotent in it...? My logic asks me to think so, but somewhere inside me something is turning that belief.... I am no longer able to confirm my ideology and also cannot disapprove of those facts which i had once inside me confirming to me that God is just imagination. I can no longer bring up those facts to my defense.....  :(

I searched online a lot and that is how i ended up coming to this forum...
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 25, 2011, 01:15:07 PM
No. Just, no.

That you won't believe in a possible explanation of a supernatural or omnipotent in it...? My logic asks me to think so, but somewhere inside me something is turning that belief.... I am no longer able to confirm my ideology and also cannot disapprove of those facts which i had once inside me confirming to me that God is just imagination. I can no longer bring up those facts to my defense.....  :(

I searched online a lot and that is how i ended up coming to this forum...
You have to understand one simple thing, Dr. Viper. I know what you were trying to do, conjuring up a disaster of a tale and all, but that's just not how things work. You have to think beyond fairy tales. You have to think realistically. You soon find rationale to be your best friend after asking many questions. Making up a tale will never justify a deity. There are no if's when it comes to the concept of deities. I understand if you feel confused... Or shocked, for that matter. I remember having my husband (who goes on here as well) telling me about his lack of faith. I asked more questions, and eventually, I was confused with myself. I guess it was actually the emotional attachment that I lived with and have grown to accept. But hey, feel free to ask all the questions in the world; that's how you break the wall. Sorry if I went too fast on you.  I just could not find the rationale in a tale. It felt like my brain fizzled for a little bit... Haha.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 01:19:37 PM
I know. That was why i am confused...
I had my share of time talking to people why God will not be there and why it is just imagination... Added to my difficulties, people around here consider me as a nut and i have no friends at all. I have been in love with a girl for five years now.  respect and admire her the most because she understood my difficulties and still loved me. She believes in God, and i do not contradict her out of respect, but now i cannot contradict anyone... I have lost all my favorite arguments that i use when talking about it to theists...

I am no longer the old me....

That was why i came here and fought with the atheists. I hoped to remember the old arguments i had with me, my old tools. In that attempt i think i enraged some members here. I feel so sorry for my actions towards Doctor X. I am sorry for that..... if Doctor X is reading this post, please accept my apologies dear sir.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on January 25, 2011, 01:28:14 PM
Current situation
1. The person is not cured completely if you ask me. he still has Keratoconus.
2. No pain whatsoever than the occasional mild outcome of reading for long times together. (common with keratoconus)
3. No addiction to fucking morphine or pelladdone or whatever they call it.
4. All persons except my girl friend distrusts me and thinks i am nuts... (Why not my GF? Well it doesn't pain me now to touch her.... and she can see that in my eyes...)

Well, what do you expect from a person like this...? What should he do or believe in...? Logic says to him that it might be nothing, but should he be an ungrateful person if it was indeed the doing of some omnipotent...

This will be unbelievably preposterous and i admit that. No proves whatsoever. Is it, and might be a fantasy..?
Viper, various illnesses can come and go. It doesn't mean that any thing was supernatural about them at all.  Not all people get addicted, so again, there's nothing supernatural about that either.  Wanting to say "god" did it is not an answer, it's a lazy excuse.  And if a god did heal you, why no indication of which, out of the millions of gods, it is?  You could spend your entire life running from church to temple to tree and still not get the "right" one.  It becomes a poor man's Pascal's Wager, and at best, indicates your gods are rather inept. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Brakeman on January 25, 2011, 01:35:09 PM
Funny how the theists of all sorts automatically only consider the mammal homo sapiens as worthy of multiple lives and punishments. I feel sorry for the other apes.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on January 25, 2011, 01:40:47 PM

Hi Dr.Viper,

Welcome to the forum.


... no i do not want to define life....
...The idea of punishment is not clear to me and i cannot define it...

Let me give you some help as a moderator.  This is not going to satisfy anyone.  If you make claims, you have to understand them and support them.  If you make commentary about life, you do not then get to take discussion of what life is off the table. If you make a claim about punishment being part of your belief, then you should expect to have to explain what that means.   

Good luck.


Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Tykster on January 25, 2011, 01:42:04 PM
No. Just, no.

That you won't believe in a possible explanation of a supernatural or omnipotent in it...? My logic asks me to think so, but somewhere inside me something is turning that belief.... I am no longer able to confirm my ideology and also cannot disapprove of those facts which i had once inside me confirming to me that God is just imagination. I can no longer bring up those facts to my defense.....  :(

I searched online a lot and that is how i ended up coming to this forum...

If you're seriously in a quest to explain what you think is divine intervention regarding pain etc. Here (http://www.ted.com/talks/vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_mind.html) is a very informative talk by Dr. Ramachandran. At around the 11 minute mark he is describing how a patient who'd had his arm amputated still felt pain from the phantom arm, and how he cured him of it....please watch. Basically the brain is a very powerful thing and can convince you of many things that aren't real. Evolutionarily speaking this is a good thing, an animal needs to know when bodily damage is occurring so that it can be avoided, otherwise, the species would fade rather quickly.

Just think about anesthetic, all it does is redirect "pain"messages, physically, for example, you might be being cut with a scalpel, but through drugs, the message never reaches the brain, hence no pain.

No gods needed, just a relatively low level understanding of medical procedures and brain function.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 01:44:15 PM
Viper, various illnesses can come and go. It doesn't mean that any thing was supernatural about them at all.  Not all people get addicted, so again, there's nothing supernatural about that either.  Wanting to say "god" did it is not an answer, it's a lazy excuse.  And if a god did heal you, why no indication of which, out of the millions of gods, it is?  You could spend your entire life running from church to temple to tree and still not get the "right" one.  It becomes a poor man's Pascal's Wager, and at best, indicates your gods are rather inept.

Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...

Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on January 25, 2011, 01:55:17 PM
Viper, various illnesses can come and go. It doesn't mean that any thing was supernatural about them at all.  Not all people get addicted, so again, there's nothing supernatural about that either.  Wanting to say "god" did it is not an answer, it's a lazy excuse.  And if a god did heal you, why no indication of which, out of the millions of gods, it is?  You could spend your entire life running from church to temple to tree and still not get the "right" one.  It becomes a poor man's Pascal's Wager, and at best, indicates your gods are rather inept.

Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...

Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?

Look, you are here, at this forum full of atheists.  Why, really?  You are trying to make a claim about a possibility for why God won't heal amputees.  You can clearly see that your possibility has more holes in it than an argument that Zeus is real, yet you persist?

I don't think you have angered anyone here.  Rather, you have shown that you don't care about reality as much as you seem to care about possibilities?  Why is that?  You're not giving us good arguments or support for your assertion about the possibility in your first post in this thread.

Atheists have heard it all, practically.  We don;t just accept a possibility without something behind it that is discernible from wishful thinking, or perhaps supernatural magic.  Do you understand that point?

I will ask you one more time, and if you choose to ignore me, then I will stop replying to you.

The simplest explanation for the question, is that God is imaginary.  God is not real.  Do you have a better explanation for why God won't heal amputees?  Or at least a refutation of my simple assertion, that God is not real.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Tykster on January 25, 2011, 01:59:20 PM
Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...

Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?

Just do a simple probabilities exercise. Is it likely that a supernatural agent of some kind that has never been witnessed or documented throughout history intervened, or was is a natural occurrence that you simply cannot explain?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Dr.Viper on January 25, 2011, 02:08:09 PM
Look, you are here, at this forum full of atheists.  Why, really?  You are trying to make a claim about a possibility for why God won't heal amputees.  You can clearly see that your possibility has more holes in it than an argument that Zeus is real, yet you persist?

I don't think you have angered anyone here.  Rather, you have shown that you don't care about reality as much as you seem to care about possibilities?  Why is that?  You're not giving us good arguments or support for your assertion about the possibility in your first post in this thread.

Atheists have heard it all, practically.  We don;t just accept a possibility without something behind it that is discernible from wishful thinking, or perhaps supernatural magic.  Do you understand that point?

I will ask you one more time, and if you choose to ignore me, then I will stop replying to you.

The simplest explanation for the question, is that God is imaginary.  God is not real.  Do you have a better explanation for why God won't heal amputees?  Or at least a refutation of my simple assertion, that God is not real.

Assuming that God is imaginary I am in fact able to contradict many things again now. Thanks. So, God must be imaginary. I just hope that the fucking pain does not come back.

@Tykster.
I agree with your question. It is more than just valid. And thanks for that link to the video. I just loved it. I watch TED often, but wonder how i missed this. Thanks again for that.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Tykster on January 25, 2011, 02:10:59 PM
You're very welcome.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on January 25, 2011, 02:28:10 PM

Assuming that God is imaginary I am in fact able to contradict many things again now. Thanks. So, God must be imaginary. I just hope that the fucking pain does not come back.


Let me add that if praying, or some other form of therapy relieves your pain, I would not suggest you stop doing it!  I'm sure you are well aware of the placebo effect.  Mix that with the body's ability to self heal, and perhaps the mind's focus on helping with pain management.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on January 25, 2011, 02:56:06 PM
Yes, i get it. I cannot never confirm ever whether it was because of those particular prayers of mine or not. I am not even sure if i was praying that day. I do not know what i said in my mind then. I just closed my eyes and lied there...
Maybe this is just a pause and the pain might be back some time later...? Who knows, right..?

yep, who knows.  It's not easy to get rid of beleive in god or gods, viper. Those of us who were believers know that very well. It's hard not to want to believe in such things since its very appealing to think that something powerful can take care of you.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on January 25, 2011, 04:55:54 PM

The question WHY GOD WONT CURE AMPUTEES is not relevant if you consider it in Hinduist faith, but is in Christian faith. So, from that perspective i submit that my post here might have some merit to the reader. Thank you.

Actually, that's a pretty good point, one I never considered before. Now, answer me this, is there any tradition of faith healing within the Hindu tradition.

If No: Your point remains strong

If Yes; then why are amputees singled out as not being able to be healed, and we really still end up arriving to the same validity of the question to Hinduism as it does to Christianity.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Omen on January 25, 2011, 06:39:01 PM
Assume a situation here

Only if it logically follows.

Quote
- Person A is an atheist.

And an atheist is?

Quote
Okay...? Hardcore atheist. Lover of science. Fan of Stephen Hawking and believes in String theory, even though he has no understanding beyond that of a science student.

This has nothing to do with atheism.

An atheist lacks a belief in a god or gods; no more, no less.  You run the risk of building strawmen arguments by insinuating more then the basic terminology.

Quote
Then walking back home, on the third day, he decides to have a go at a nearby place of God, with an intention of silently cursing that unfair God if he did in deed exist.

What kind of moron bothers with this?

Quote
I cannot prove any of this in anyway.

There is nothing that need be proved.  Even if all the circumstances were true, it still does not logically follow that that a god exist.  Your logic does not follow into the conclusion without making an arbitrary and baseless leap without proper reason to do so.

Quote
Is it, and might be a fantasy..?

It is all irrelevant, even if given the benefit of the doubt.. sometimes the human body reverses conditions it would not otherwise.  The point is that you have no logical reason to believe it happened because a random series of circumstances, you've simply drawn that conclusion outside of your ability to know if it is true or not.  Which is irrational and illogical.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Omen on January 25, 2011, 06:50:03 PM
..people around here consider me as a nut and i have no friends at all.

I don't give a shit what you claim, I care about how you claim it.

- Being purposefully vague and contradictory, while at the same time babbling on as if you were actually building coherent arguments when you are not is intellectually dishonest.

- Ignoring the responses of others or simply responding with more vague unsupported assertions is again intellectually dishonest.

- Taking absolutely NO responsibility in your own assertions or your ability to support them, is intellectually dishonest.

If you haven't caught the hint, being intellectually dishonest is not seen as a respectful act.  Don't try to implicate others in your own lack responsibility.

Quote
  I have lost all my favorite arguments that i use when talking about it to theists...

Considering that you can't even deliver a single proper argument for any subject, I'm going to have seriously doubt this assertion.

Quote
That was why i came here and fought with the atheists.

Fought?

So you intentionally approached others with the intent to engage in antagonistic discussion, where you will accuse them of insulting you after you initially opened up with dishonest and inept argumentation.  Not to mention where you will assert you were once an 'atheist' and 'understand' the 'atheist' position, yet seemingly can never accurately describe the position or arguments surrounding atheism.

Again, I'm leaning to you just being an insincere and dishonest little nobody, based on a series of observable actions you've made already.  If you feel any animosity, then it is the animosity you brought.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Alzael on January 25, 2011, 08:28:08 PM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.

That would be a monumentally stupid idea for a punishment. Even assuming that past lives are a viable possibility, the person who actually committed the crimes are dead and gone, possibly for decades or centuries. They're not available to punish, instead you're punishing someone who's only crime is that they're somehow connected to initial perpetrator through no action of their own.

It would be like if I decided that I hated Omen and wanted to punish him for wronging me. So rather than kill him, I decide that I'm going to wait around for a hundred years or so. Then come back and kill his great-great-granddaughter as part of my masterful revenge. Even though he's already long gone and probably lived a relatively peaceful and happy life.

Oh yeah, that'll show him.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: JeffPT on January 25, 2011, 10:22:35 PM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.

Viper... If this is the case, you have to wonder what the purpose behind the punishment is?  Punishment is supposed to be used to teach people a lesson, right?  Like when I send my kids to their rooms for fighting with each other, that is supposed to teach them that it's wrong to fight. 

Regarding reincarnation though... We have no clue what we did in our past lives.  What good is punishing me going to do if I have no idea what I did wrong in my past life?  How can my punishment teach me anything if I don't know what I am being punished for?  It would be like me punishing my children at a random date and time for an offense that took place two weeks ago, and without telling them what offense they are being punished for.  How could they learn anything from that?  Can you imagine how confusing it would be for my kids if we were peacefully eating dinner together one night and I suddenly stood up and screamed at them to go to their rooms... for no apparent reason? 

In a similar vein; if (as you say) losing a limb is punishment for a past life's transgressions, and someone loses a limb without knowing what they did wrong in the first place, what is to prevent them from repeating the same mistakes over and over again in future lives? 

Or are you suggesting this punishment is not intended to teach?  If it's not intended to teach, then what's the purpose behind it? 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: stocbri on January 26, 2011, 08:13:38 PM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.  God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace.  We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.  Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Asmoday on January 26, 2011, 08:34:53 PM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.
And what would that "purpose" or "duty" be?

If you say anything like "to be an example for others" you better be prepared to answer your question how it can be that the supposedly almighty creator of the universe is unable to get his point across without having people suffer over having their limbs removed.

Quote
God DOES NOT punish.
You obviously have never read the bible.

Quote
He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace.
You obviously have never read the bible.

Kind, loving and merciful? Explain everlasting torture in hell then, especially in context of the aforementioned kindness, love and mercy.

Quote
We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.
First show us that God (and Satan for that matter) actually exist. Then we can talk.

Quote
Your choice what to believe
Belief is not a choice.

If you doubt me, I have a little experiment for you.
Please think about something you don't believe in. It does not matter what it is; faeries, gnomes, dragons, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, whatever.
Now pick one thing you don't believe in and just for 5 minutes believe in it. What I ask of you is to demonstrate your claim by consciously choosing to believe something to be real even though you don't believe in it.

Tell us how that worked out for you.  &)

Quote
but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.
Please google "Pascal's wager" and you'll find out why your "better to be safe than sorry, so better believe in God" argument you try here does not work.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 26, 2011, 09:26:02 PM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.  God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace.  We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.  Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.

You can't convert anyone here with such fallacies, you know. Either you came here to preach, or ask questions. Which will it be?

Edit: Side-note --> We don't believe in Satan, nor God, nor heaven or hell. We don't believe in any sort of fairytale.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: JeffPT on January 26, 2011, 09:39:35 PM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees. 

Could you prove this?  What "calling" does a morbidly obese, uncontrolled diabetic have when they get their leg cut off because they couldn't stop shoveling donuts and cigarettes in their mouth?  What "calling" does that same person have when he DIES 3 months later after not having the other one cut off in time to stop the gangrene? 

God DOES NOT punish.

But... but... in your last line you basically threaten us with the whole "you better be good for the sake of your eternal life" thing.  You do mean hell, don't you?   That's not punishment? 

He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace.

...that created a place like hell to burn people forever who don't believe in him....   Is that really your idea of grace?

Besides, the world around you is evidence enough that this is simply not true.  I can think of 2 words that should be evidence enough that God isn't what you say he is.  "Pediatric oncologists".  Any God that creates a world where children can get cancer should never, EVER be considered kind or loving.   

Luckily, the entire thing is fake and we don't have to hate God.   

We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan. 

The only thing as foolish as the idea of God is the idea of Satan. 

Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.

I am a better person without God than I would ever be with him. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Alzael on January 26, 2011, 11:25:35 PM
  We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.  Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.

As I am always quick tp point out to the various theists that we get here, there is no freedom of choice in this system. First off, your worldview limits itself to only three possible options. It leaves out the possibility of choosing a different god, or of deciding that god simply does not exist as opposed to ignoring him, plus several other viable options that are left out.

Furthermore since we are punished for choosing or not choosing the options that god wants us to it eliminates any concept of freedom of choice. You cannot claim freedom when the message is "Do what you're told or I'll spank you." It is circumstantial choice at best.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 27, 2011, 12:15:13 AM
We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.  Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.

Do you have any understanding of what "freedom" means?  Your God intends to eternally torture anyone who doesn't choose to live the way he wants; this is not freedom of choice.  Let me try giving you a real world example.

 You're familiar with freedom of speech, correct?  You can go out and announce "The holocaust never happened, niggers did 9/11, abortions should be mandatory, etc" and you have every right to do so.  Now let's say an amendment is made that states that if anyone says anything other than "FroFro is amazing", they will immediately be tortured to death on the spot.  You can still CHOOSE to say whatever you want, but if it's not the way I see fit, you will be tortured.  According to the common Christian's version of "Freedom of Choice," my amendment would still be freedom of speech. 

btw, Pascal's Wager. 

EDIT:  This is frofrodajimmyboy.  Didn't realize I was on my wife's account
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 27, 2011, 04:26:30 AM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.  God DOES NOT punish.

What "purpose" is achieved by tormenting a child with metastatic osteosarcoma until death that is not EVIL.

Quote
He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace.

Who does NOTHING for Unjust Suffering.

Quote
We all have freedom of choice....

Save for that child I mentioned . . . and thousands upon thousands of others.

You worship EVIL, son.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Asmoday on January 27, 2011, 09:14:58 AM
I doubt we will ever hear from stocbri again.

He's just one of those drive-by Christian posters, choosing a random thread and then puking a load of pre-digested crap in there which in turn they have been fed by their preacher, priest, pastor or favorite TV-evangelist.

And then they and other Christians wonder why we don't gather around it in total awe and don't fall on our knees and gobble it all up.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Doctor X on January 27, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Probably because there are not enough nuts in it.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on January 27, 2011, 10:35:05 AM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.  God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace.  We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.  Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.

great, one more Christian who doesn't read their bible and has made up their own invisible friend. :P  I would also err on the side of good, pity your god doesn't do the same, with its idiotic punishing others for "sins" not their own.   
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: plethora on January 27, 2011, 11:42:24 AM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.

So many assumptions in so few words. You:

1) Assumed god exists
2) Assumed that god is specifically the christian god of your particular denomination
3) Assumed god has a purpose
4) Assumed that his purpose includes the suffering of amputees
5) Assumed you are somehow qualified to know and explain the purposes of said god

Quote
God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace. 

Aren't we forgetting one teensy weensy -> but ever so crucial <- bit of a tiny detail?

You believe he sends people to hell for eternal torture!!! Hello?

Quote
We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.

First you need to PROOVE god and satan exist. Otherwise I can just as well replace "god" and "satan" in your statement with "he-man" and "skeletor".

Quote
Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.

Belief is not a choice ... and you've thrown out Pascal's Wager... the oldest lame-ass argument in the book which has been refuted countless times.

Here's a link to the argument thoroughly refuted:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager#Counter-arguments (http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager#Counter-arguments)

Thanks for the drive-by ... have a nice life.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on January 27, 2011, 11:57:36 AM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.  God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace. 

... and kittens and puppy dogs and balloons and cotton candy and snuggly blankets fresh out of the dryer.  Yeah, whatever.  Time to grow up.

How do you know these things about god?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on January 27, 2011, 06:06:25 PM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.  God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace. 

... and kittens and puppy dogs and balloons and cotton candy and snuggly blankets fresh out of the dryer.  Yeah, whatever.  Time to grow up.

How do you know these things about god?

He does his laundry and has daily chats with his mother over a nice cup of tea. A bit much, but that's my hunch.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Nam on January 27, 2011, 06:49:22 PM
If you commit a bad deed, or a crime you have to pay for it. The idea of punishment is not clear to me and i cannot define it, but a fair god will punish on the same plate as your crime.... Sometimes, it might be your chance to penance and if you hurt somebody seriously in this life, you might be in a life that has to serve the other in the next life...

What if you served time while you were alive for such crime(s) -- would a just deity still punish the person afterward?  Is it that really just?

Quote
I do not think so because i do not subscribe to BULLS(hit) Magazine, i subscribe to The Entrepreneur and The Economist..

It's "bullshit", it's okay to spell it out; if you're going to go that far, might as well go all the way.

Quote
I believe that if God does exist, then he will be an ever encompassing energy that is the universe and everything. Yes, that is if he does exist....

If you recently have returned to your deity, then, why even state "if"?  Seems as if you're still unsure, yourself.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 27, 2011, 08:44:25 PM
Not ONE single amputee deserves healing.  I guess if you are an amputee you must be a really bad person.  I plan to stay away from them.

Indeed, they should not even be allowed to vote (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=8274).

--J.D.
I would ask you to PROVE that not ONE SINGLE amputee is worthy
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on January 28, 2011, 08:28:43 AM
God has a purpose, a calling, a duty for amputees.  God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace.  We all have freedom of choice....to choose GOD, to ignore GOD or to follow the deceiver, the Devil, Satan.  Your choice what to believe.................................but I would error on the side of goodness when it comes to matters of life everlasting.

Before posting here again, take your brain out of nuetral. It seems to be running; but for all the noise, it doesn't seem to be driving anywhere.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: William on January 28, 2011, 08:45:16 AM
God DOES NOT punish.  He is a kind and loving and merciful God full of grace. 

Umm ... no! Where are you getting your information on God?  :?

Quote
Lamentations 3:38-40 (King James Version)
 
38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment   of his sins?

40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Fail this time!  Want to try again?  :)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 28, 2011, 07:17:51 PM
lets face the facts guys, God loves certain lizards,insects and worms more than he loves humanity. He lets them regrow severed limbs. Jesus paid the debt for all sins,God can't use that excuse as to why he won't heal amputee's
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Blaze on February 04, 2011, 10:21:29 AM
hmm... we don't get many of those here. In fact, I don't remember a single one.

I'm a Hindu-turned atheist, if that counts :P

What I found, and still find, flawed in the OP's viewpoint (apart from the clear fact that more-than-one-life or the after-life or reincarnation are just ideas born out of wishful thinking and fear of death) is the reason for punishment. Punishment is to give a person back what he gave to someone else. Actually, this is not punishment but the law of Karma which Hinduism so strictly adheres to. Karma, in its logical, most simple sense is "tit for tat". You perform good deeds, you'll get fortune. You perform bad deeds and cruelty, you will be cruelly treated.

One important aspect of Karma is to make the person realize the deed he performed and repent for it, or in other words, feel the consequences of his actions which reflect upon himself. If a person goes into the next life, he/she does not know what he is punished for! That makes absolutely no sense. The sad fact that this argument is used to justify the deformed birth of many children is disgusting and ridiculous. If you want to punish someone, punish him when he knows he is receiving the punishment, and the reason for it.

Example one (makes a little sense):

A: I think I'm going to do something bad today and see what happens.
B: Like what?
A: I'll just throw this baseball at that kid L0L0L
A: -throws- -ball hits kid and he falls down-
A: HAHA
B: Why did you do that? -takes the ball and throws it back at A-
A: AAAHHH I'm so sorry I did that! That hurts!

Example two (the not-so-much-sense situation)

A: I think I'm going to do something bad today and see what happens.
B: Like what?
A: I'll just throw this baseball at that kid L0L0L
A: -throws- -ball hits kid and he falls down-
B: Why did you do that? Take this! -HITS ON A'S HEAD and damages his memory-
B: -now throws ball-
A: DUDE WTF YOU DOIN

Which makes more sense? (Um... in a relative way :P)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Blaze on February 04, 2011, 10:25:58 AM
Edited to remove unnecessary quote blocks. Please do not quote more than is needed.

I guess this is why India is still majorly underdeveloped: Judging everyone too much.

Who's the one judging now?

This is equivalent to saying "This is why America is so stupid: the schools there teach creationism as the only true origin theory".

Just like not all schools teach that, similarly, not all Indians are overly religious, irrational or even theists. And this has nothing to do with development thank you.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on February 04, 2011, 11:12:32 AM
Edited to remove unnecessary quote blocks. Please do not quote more than is needed.

I guess this is why India is still majorly underdeveloped: Judging everyone too much.

Who's the one judging now?

This is equivalent to saying "This is why America is so stupid: the schools there teach creationism as the only true origin theory".

Just like not all schools teach that, similarly, not all Indians are overly religious, irrational or even theists. And this has nothing to do with development thank you.

Your Silicon Valley is one of the pinnacles of technology in India. Cities are getting better. But there is still huge problems in there. For example, the Ganges River. Many people still bathe in that VERY dirty water, thinking it's holy. It's too polluted. And there is still a ridiculous amount of poverty. People, amazingly, still believe in Hinduism. You know it's the third-largest religion. Not every Indian is going to believe in it, of course. I've had a very good Hindu friend in high school who accompanied me every day, and in her opinion, India is trashy. People can talk about how it is developing very fast, especially in technology and how intelligent foreign Indians are (which they are, which is why they move to a more developed country like the United States), but it still doesn't change that India is still behind, especially when it comes to the more simple matters of helping its own people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India). Hinduism's "wonderful" caste system attributes that, just so you know, so it is "slightly" a matter of religion. By the way, welcome. :) I haven't seen you around, but it's very nice to meet you.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Blaze on February 05, 2011, 05:29:17 AM
For example, the Ganges River. Many people still bathe in that VERY dirty water, thinking it's holy. It's too polluted.

It's a silly belief, just like all the silly beliefs in the world.

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People, amazingly, still believe in Hinduism.

Yeah but why "amazingly"?

Quote
Hinduism's "wonderful" caste system attributes that, just so you know, so it is "slightly" a matter of religion. By the way, welcome. :) I haven't seen you around, but it's very nice to meet you.

Yes, India is poor, yes, India is not a fully developed nation, but as a Hindu-turned atheist who lives in India, I can tell you that this has nothing to do with people "judging others". The country is poor because it's poor, the reasons you can find in a few corrupt individuals, and some reasons date back to the ages of colonialization, and even earlier, to the ancient civilizations which fully advocated the caste system and other social evils. Trust me, though, this is changing extremely fast. Nobody believes in the caste system or untouchability and all that crap anymore, and these things were not even in original Hinduism (caste was actually based on a person's job, not his birth or heredity, and untouchability is nowhere in the Vedas or any religious Hindu text). In fact, that kind of stuff went absolete way back. True, there are some remote areas where this s**t still exists, but that is true for a large number of countries as well. I can tell you, however, that I have never seen anyone in my life who adheres to these extreme traditions anymore.

Quote
By the way, welcome. :) I haven't seen you around, but it's very nice to meet you.

Thank you! I'm always around, I just read a lot more than I post.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: LadyLucy on February 05, 2011, 09:30:26 AM
I truly admit that India has come a VERY long way. It's admirable. It's great! India would make a fine developed nation once it solves its troubles, and it has as of late. Sure, I cannot see the progress because things DO look bad there. I always wish things were better. But it's on the way to a bright future, as I've already read in numerous articles regarding India.

And I say "amazingly" because Hinduism is in fact the oldest major religion in the world. Many thousands of years old. I thought that by now, it would have been out-dated. The religion has a whole pantheon of deities! Their stories are interesting, but that's all they obviously are, just like all other religions: Myths.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: RaymondKHessel on February 09, 2011, 09:12:59 PM

Stop saying "maybe", and perhaps give me a response to my reply to you from here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17574.msg389084.html#msg389084 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17574.msg389084.html#msg389084)

Why should i stop saying maybe..?

BECAUSE dude. You can "maybe" away literally ANYTHING if you want to. Humans are very imaginitive and are MASTERS at rationalizing stuff.

If you play the MAYBE game with yourself, no matter *what* belief you're trying to test, you'll *always* end up correct about it, because there's almost literally no limit to what sort of justifications and rationalizations you can come up with.

If your criteria for belief is simply "maybe-ing" things out of your hat and then cramming them into the puzzle spaces until they make some kind of sense, you essentially have no reason to even take reality into account at all.

What you'll inevitably find though, is that you can only stack the "maybe" pile so high before you have to take a step back and look at it and go, "Wow. That's a whole lot of maybes and wishful thinking."

You need to ask yourself, and be honest, what is more likely? That allllllll those far-out and far-reaching "maybes" inside of "maybes" that are built on "maybes" with "maybes" dangling off the side of still more "maybes", and "what ifs" and "it could bes..." Is it more likely that all of these, which have not a shred of concrete evidence to support them, and half of which you've just invented as you went along... Is it likely that these are actually correct, and you just happened to FEEL your way to the ultimate Truths? Really?

Or is it more likely that the foundation on which you've built this tower of maybes is simply not real? It would immediately remove all the uncomfortable answers, all the illogical inconsistencies, all the mind-bogglingly complex and unlikely best-fit explanations... And guess what? It TOTALLY jives with what we actually can *prove* about the nature of the life and the universe.... It instantly makes life and the universe make a LOT more sense,  and makes all those uncomfortable questions really, really easy to answer -  "It's not true."

That's it. Poof! There you go. If you assume it's not true, you don't *have* to go forcing imagined puzzle pieces into the proper spaces. And amazingly enough? Everything we as humans have learned about the nature of the universe seems to indicate *exactly* the kind of universe we'd expect to see if there were no gods, starving babies and all.

Of course, most religious people would never be inclined to do such a thing. It's a real pain in the ass to go out and actively look for real, substantial answers to the hard questions, when you can simply "maybe" away any answers you might not like to suit your fancy and help you reach your pre-drawn conclusion.

Who wants to do all that research just to get answers you might not like? So what if they're the truth, right? They'll never give you the warm fuzzies like "maybes" do. Probably best to just stick your head in the sand at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on February 09, 2011, 10:24:41 PM
^^^^ Raymond, it's a good thing this is not "Treat a Theist with Kid Gloves Week" or that would have been a big faux paux.

Good one. Once again, I'm glad you're on my side.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: San on July 05, 2011, 05:48:46 PM
I had a sister who is an amputee.  She seeks sympathy online to have people tell her how sorry they are for her.  The reality is she's an amputee because she's a heavy chain smoker and a drunk.  She was warned and yet even after amputation continues to drink on her blood thinners and smoke.  A real loser.

She has aborted her children, gave them up for adoption and smoked weed with them as teens.  She neglected them while screwing any man who would touch her.  She had three choices for fathers for one of her kids because in 24 hours of getting pregnant, thats how many partners she had.  so she's going by his looks to claim his father.

And yet, I never spoke the words you are reading above because I refused to judge her. Her life, her choice. 

But, I know Kate all too well.  She has put my child in the hands of a known rapist and child molester.  So in my view, when you are a general worthless sour soul, maybe just maybe the rest of us get a break and life tries to kill you off.  Or in her case, just maime her.  But at the rate she's going, maybe I will get my wish.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 05, 2011, 06:27:16 PM
1) You've necromanced a dead thread (posted in a thread that is no longer active, and, thus, is populated by posts submitted by members who may no longer frequent the site). We discourage that around here. Please mind the forum rules.

2) WTF? I am sorry for your misfortune, or that of your sibling, but this thread is an innappropriate forum for your post. Maybe one of the Chatter boards would be more appropriate for your expressions.

Welcome.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aaron123 on July 22, 2011, 11:48:12 PM
Blacksheep, pleaae fix your quotations.  I have no idea what's your words and someone's else.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: gaytheist on July 23, 2011, 01:25:06 PM
The answer is so simple,  GOD does not heal amputees because there is no GOD!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 01:23:01 PM
if god didnt exist who created the universe...and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...our actions will be judged by the all knowing GOD(ALLAH)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 01:25:11 PM
if god didnt exist who created the universe...and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...our actions will be judged by the all knowing GOD(ALLAH)

well, Shia, each religion claims that their god or gods created the universe.  All have absolutely no evidence.  Why should we believe your claims over the claims of a beliver in Odin or Aten or Tezcatlipoca? 

Your god is no more real than any other god.  They are figments of the human imagination, that are only used to make people like you feel special. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 01:43:10 PM
if god didnt exist who created the universe...and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...our actions will be judged by the all knowing GOD(ALLAH)

YHWH, the god of the bible created the universe.

EDIT: Nah, he didn't create the universe either. Allah is a myth, just like YHWH, just like every other god created by primitive men. The two most primitive men when dealing with religion, Abraham and Muhammad, had good and convincing stories to a flock of lost sheep, but in today's society their myths are useless.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 01:53:36 PM
my religion has everything a being can need and the best proof would be quran,it has everything man never knew and what he recently discovered... the quran knew it 1400 years ago and it has never been changed unlike the bible this is nothing but a miracle.i will post an example of a verse revealed 1400 years ago but man recently discovered.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 01:56:27 PM
“The heaven and the earth were
joint together. And We clove them…(Surah
Anbiya,21:30).and this verse of the holy Quran speaks
about the big bang theory in a nut shell.”
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 01:56:45 PM
Wazzamo, is that you?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 01:59:11 PM
my religion has everything a being can need and the best proof would be quran,it has everything man never knew and what he recently discovered... the quran knew it 1400 years ago and it has never been changed unlike the bible this is nothing but a miracle.i will post an example of a verse revealed 1400 years ago but man recently discovered.
Yep, all theists claim that too, that their religion is teh truth and al that one could ever need.  And again, full of the same lies and nonsense with nothing supporting the myths it tells.   We have the Christians make the same claim about the Big Bang theory in their religion too.  So how are we to know which of you are telling the truth and which of you are liars?  I'd go with both of you since neither of you has any evidence to support your fantasies.

All other religions cherry pick their magic holy books for the same nonsense.  Your book has nothing that men couldnt' figure out on their own by simply looking around, and it is pathetically wrong about so much.  Like the nonsense that the moon cracked. That's a hilarious one. 

You seem to be one more willfully ignorant theist, just like all of the rest.  Your religion is a primitive superstition, nothing more, that has to be excused for its more ignorant claims by just as many apologists as Christianity or Judaism.  It always scrambles to catch up to modern morality, your god no more than a childish brat like every other god from that time period.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aaron123 on December 27, 2011, 01:59:42 PM
My religion has everything a being can need and the best proof would be the quran bible.  It has everything man never knew and what he recently discovered... the quran bible knew it 1400 2,000 years ago and it has never been changed unlike the bible quran this is nothing but a miracle.  I will post an example of a verse revealed 1400 2,000 years ago but man recently discovered.


Explain how your post is logically different than the modified version.  Can you do it without commiting a logic fallacy?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:05:52 PM
yes,but the injil was also a holy book until it was changed...the quran is a completion and a compilation of all the holy books...tawrah,injil,zaboor.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
“The heaven and the earth were
joint together. And We clove them…(Surah
Anbiya,21:30).and this verse of the holy Quran speaks
about the big bang theory in a nut shell.”

In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth
Genesis 1:1.

This verse describes the big bang very well.

And for the record, that little verse you quoted doesn't even come close to describing the big bang. Swing and a miss.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the
heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We
separated them and made from water every living thing?
Then will they not believe?...THIS IS THE COMPLETE VERSE
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 02:13:58 PM
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word was god. All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1.

How does the koran differ from any other holy book?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:16:39 PM
it has never changed..ever!!!!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on December 27, 2011, 02:17:28 PM
That's not all that impressive, SMM.  So it's been kept in its original form.  So what?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 02:20:45 PM
it has never changed..ever!!!!

I'm sure it hasn't. So, what's your point? Big deal. Psst.

EDIT: Is your whole argument that the koran is right is because it has never changed? I hope not because that's very far from a convincing argument.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 02:25:08 PM
“The heaven and the earth were
joint together. And We clove them…(Surah
Anbiya,21:30).and this verse of the holy Quran speaks
about the big bang theory in a nut shell.”
The Big Bang Theory doesn't use the concept of 'heaven'. So you're wrong.

Are you a fan of Harun Yahya, by any chance? We are familiar here with his list of "Scientific Miracles of the Qur'an (http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html)".
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:28:33 PM
The older daughter, concerned about preserving the family
line, suggested to her sister that, because no men were
around, it was their duty to preserve the bloodline by
lying with their father.[v.31,32]
The daughters then got their father so drunk they were
able to have intercourse with him on two consecutive
nights, the older daughter having her way with him the
first night, followed by the younger on the following
night.[v.31-35] The text describes that Lot was so drunk
“he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got
up.”[v.33,35]
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 02:29:11 PM
I can see this is going nowhere...

EDIT: So Lot got drunk. Good for him. I enjoy getting drunk also.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 02:29:39 PM
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the
heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We
separated them and made from water every living thing?
Then will they not believe?...THIS IS THE COMPLETE VERSE

and it's still a myth, no different from the Vikings thinking that the world came from a cow licking ice.

and how nice, incest too.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:31:08 PM
heaven is used as a substitute for sky...logic...heaven and earth
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 02:35:11 PM
heaven is used as a substitute for sky...logic...heaven and earth

What is a sky anyways? Isn't it that what is above the earth. If you go past the sky you reach space. Scientifically speaking the earth was formed about 10 billion years after the formation of the universe. So, then heaven's concept was created billions of years after something went "bang". Still, hardly convincing that the koran is a useful book.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:36:16 PM
he is a prophet sinning makes him a poor role model
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aaron123 on December 27, 2011, 02:38:21 PM
The older daughter, concerned about preserving the family
line, suggested to her sister that, because no men were
around, it was their duty to preserve the bloodline by
lying with their father.[v.31,32]
The daughters then got their father so drunk they were
able to have intercourse with him on two consecutive
nights, the older daughter having her way with him the
first night, followed by the younger on the following
night.[v.31-35] The text describes that Lot was so drunk
“he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got
up.”[v.33,35]

What does this have to do with the Big Bang theory?  Or are we just talking about any ol' big banging now?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on December 27, 2011, 02:38:30 PM
heaven is used as a substitute for sky

If you go that route, then you can make anything say anything.  Here, watch this:

"Velkyn threw a chocolate pie at Barack Obama."

This statement is true, and I can prove it.  "Velkyn" is a substitute for "pianodwarf", "threw" is a substitute for "ate", "chocolate pie" is a substitute for "turkey burger", and "Barack Obama" is a substitute for "lunch".  See how that works?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 02:38:48 PM
he is a prophet sinning makes him a poor role model

And your prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl. Your prophet is an even more horrible role model.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 02:40:05 PM
SMM:
Quote
heaven is used as a substitute for sky...logic...heaven and earth
This is the problem with these "scientific miracles", you have to twist the meanings of words to make any sense of them.

And as Emily, said. the concept of "sky" isn't used in Big Bang Theory either.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:40:24 PM
take the metaforical meaning...use logic.we are the best creation...THINK!!!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 02:51:03 PM
And your prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl. Your prophet is an even more horrible role model.
Emily, I'm not sure there's any mileage in this point; the Age of Consent in the UK in the 16th century was 10.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:52:32 PM
the pope changed the bible...HOW CAN YOU CHANGE HEAVENLY TEXT
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2011, 02:52:45 PM
SMM is sounding awfully Poe's Law/Troll to me.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 02:58:37 PM
... only that this book has everything true
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aaron123 on December 27, 2011, 03:00:05 PM
the pope changed the bible...HOW CAN YOU CHANGE HEAVENLY TEXT

For this to have any merits, you have to prove that the Koran is work of an actual supernatual being(whenever a god or something else). 

Can you demostrate that the Koran is the work of a supernatual being?


edit: fixed grammar
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 03:09:38 PM
Quote
the pope changed the bible...HOW CAN YOU CHANGE HEAVENLY TEXT
And why did Uthman produce his standardized version of the Qur'an? Because the text was being changed... wiki:
Quote
when the standard copies were made widely available to the Muslim community everywhere, then all other material was burnt voluntarily by the Muslim community themselves. The annihilation of these extra-Qur'anic documents remained essential in order to eradicate scriptural incongruities, contradictions of consequence or differences in the dialect from the customary text of the Qur'an.

So the answer to HOW CAN YOU CHANGE HEAVENLY TEXT is, "very easily, as history shows".
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 03:12:00 PM
the pope changed the bible...HOW CAN YOU CHANGE HEAVENLY TEXT

There's nothing to say your text is "heavenly".  We have a legend about Mo and the magic horse.  Nothing to support it, nor his little chat with Gabriel.  Considering that it can't even get simple description right, there's no reason to think that some god had anything to do with it.  You have the same tribal fascination with hair like the god of the Jews and Christians do. How impressive for a god to care about barbering.  And your book repeats many of the same myths, all of course without anything to support that they actually happened.   

The Egyptian Book of the Dead makes more sense by what it claims, so by your reasoning, it's even more holy and more true.  Heck, the book Dianetics, by the Scientologists, hasn't been changed either so gee, it must be true too and there's probably more copies of it floating around than your magic book.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 03:15:22 PM
yes,there have been attempts but...without success the quran has been the same
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on December 27, 2011, 03:20:30 PM
For political reasons.  Not for supernatural reasons.

There's nothing special about politics.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2011, 03:20:54 PM
Quote
the pope changed the bible...HOW CAN YOU CHANGE HEAVENLY TEXT
And why did Uthman produce his standardized version of the Qur'an? Because the text was being changed... wiki:
Quote
when the standard copies were made widely available to the Muslim community everywhere, then all other material was burnt voluntarily by the Muslim community themselves. The annihilation of these extra-Qur'anic documents remained essential in order to eradicate scriptural incongruities, contradictions of consequence or differences in the dialect from the customary text of the Qur'an.

So the answer to HOW CAN YOU CHANGE HEAVENLY TEXT is, "very easily, as history shows".

The history of the Koran is so dodgy that it makes the Bible look written in stone by comparison. All sorts of inscriptions that predate and are completely in conflict with the standrd text show up regularly in archeology. It is quite clear, very little of the Koran is "unchanged"
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 03:22:18 PM
One of the nature of the
oceans that scientists
recently found have been
revealed in one verse of the
Holy Quran (QS-Ar-Rahman:
19-20) as follows : He let the
two seas flow, both the meet,
(but) between them, there is a
limit which can not be passed
by each.
Nature of this sea, namely
meet each other, but not mixed
with each other at all, just found by expert sea. Because
the style of physics called "surface tension", waters in
the sea close together will not be mixed. Because of the
differences caused by the thickness of water, the voltage
prevent the surface ocean are both mixed with each other,
as if have thin walls in between them.
Interestingly, in the period when people do not have any
knowledge physics, surface tension or the ocean experts,
this knowledge has been revealed in the Holy Quran.
Fresh Water in Ocean Depth
By: Ir. H. Bambang Pranggono, MBA....THE QURAN HAS EVERYTHING TRUE
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on December 27, 2011, 03:24:27 PM
It depends on which book you're talking about, Hatter.

For example, the KJV Bible has remained basically unchanged...since it was authorized back in 1769.  Of course, it's been changed since the 1611 version, but if you're only looking at the 1769 version, then it's been unchanged.

It's all a matter of how far back we're willing to look.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 03:25:59 PM
then find me a verse which contradicts itself,is not true,or any thing else which makes it unhevenly
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on December 27, 2011, 03:26:53 PM
How can one tell whether a verse is heavenly or not?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 03:27:39 PM
yes,there have been attempts but...without success the quran has been the same
And as Velkyn said, so what if the Qur'an hasn't changed since Uthman? What does that prove?

You seem to have given up talking about the 'scientific miracles' of the Qur'an. Your point about the text isn't particularly significant.

What else have you got?

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 03:29:24 PM
SMM is sounding awfully Poe's Law/Troll to me.
I've met a number of Muslims who sound just like SMM...
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 03:30:04 PM
One of the nature of the oceans that scientists recently found have been revealed in one verse of the Holy Quran (QS-Ar-Rahman:19-20) as follows : He let the two seas flow, both the meet, (but) between them, there is a limit which can not be passed by each. Nature of this sea, namely meet each other, but not mixed with each other at all, just found by expert sea. Because the style of physics called "surface tension", waters in the sea close together will not be mixed. Because of the
differences caused by the thickness of water, the voltage prevent the surface ocean are both mixed with each other,
as if have thin walls in between them. Interestingly, in the period when people do not have any knowledge physics, surface tension or the ocean experts, this knowledge has been revealed in the Holy Quran. Fresh Water in Ocean Depth
By: Ir. H. Bambang Pranggono, MBA....THE QURAN HAS EVERYTHING TRUE

The waters in the sea constantly meet and mix.  Surface tension does not apply at all.  There are indeed changes between densities of fresh and salt water, but they do mix.   What a bunch of lies that this Muslim finds necessary to tell. 

Hmm and where the magic book fails?  Oh claiming that the earth is flat, the sun moves around the earth, claiming that bees eat fruit (they don't, only nectar from flowers and pollen), the sun sits in a muddy pool when it sets, etc.  It's about as ignorant as the bible and appropriately so since it was written by ignorant men.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 03:32:37 PM
u can google that yourself ,i just gave u something about oceans....look at the page first
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2011, 03:37:08 PM
It depends on which book you're talking about, Hatter.

For example, the KJV Bible has remained basically unchanged...since it was authorized back in 1769.  Of course, it's been changed since the 1611 version, but if you're only looking at the 1769 version, then it's been unchanged.

It's all a matter of how far back we're willing to look.

I am say since the council of Nicea, which assembled the Bible, it has remained relatively stable. Sure there are variances, translation issues, the Apocrapha....but relatively stable. Outside of the dead sea scroll, we have little documentation from when people accepted a different text. Compare the to the Koran where there is tons of evidence that the current text is not the same, inscriptions on coins, on monuments, on tombs, on armor and swords that seem to be Koran-ish, annotated, mentioning Mohhamed and so forth, but are not contained within the Koran

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 03:38:10 PM
the water never mixes...the fresh water might cover the sea water ...IT DOES NOT MIX...ENGLISH...AND I LIVE IN AFRICA
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on December 27, 2011, 03:40:54 PM
SMM, these supposed "scientific relevations" are a lot less impressive when they turn out to be utterly false.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 03:45:42 PM
the water never mixes...the fresh water might cover the sea water ...IT DOES NOT MIX...ENGLISH...AND I LIVE IN AFRICA

You are willfully ignorant.  And who cares if you live in Africa?   It might be hard to realize but your fellow Muslims have lied to you and you are too lazy to actually find out about things for yourself.  You cling to your ignorance in desperation. 

Water mixes and anyone who has been to the shore knows that.  Rivers of fresh water flow into the oceans and they do not remain fresh indefinitely.  One can get fresh water from the Amazon almost 250 miles from its mouth.  But that's it.   They mix and your magic book fails again. 

It is density not surface tension that makes them do this, so your ignorant fellows can't even get that much right in their pitiful attempts to show how great the qu'ran is.  It's always so pitiful to watch the supposedly faithful try to find anything that helps them retain their weak faith and get things wrong in the process.  It seems that Allah doesn't help his believers at all but allows them to look ridiculous.   

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Brakeman on December 27, 2011, 03:52:32 PM
Of course this is easy to test shia muslim monotheist,

Find yourself a tall bucket and mix the bottom half of the water with salt to a strong salt concentration. Then after that is settled and quiet, pour very very very gently half a bucket full of clean water. Then let it set for a day. come back the next day and take a drink and let us know if even the very tip top of the water remains unsalty.  Inquiring Minds want to know..
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 03:53:36 PM
 the water never mixes .. you need to do proper research on this  ive done mine....u guys really are not getting the point and my english is better than yours ... and i live in africa
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 03:54:58 PM
i m not sure about which water remains on top, i was only giving an example
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on December 27, 2011, 04:00:31 PM
the water never mixes .. you need to do proper research on this  ive done mine

For Pete's sake...

Quote
Brackish water is water that has more salinity than fresh water, but not as much as seawater.  It may result from mixing of seawater with fresh water, as in estuaries, or it may occur in brackish fossil aquifers.
{bold mine}

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackish_water

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 04:11:18 PM
There are places in the sea where there is a layer of water high in salt below a layer of water which is low in salt, and there can seem to be a pretty distinct boundary between them. However, if you stopped the currents from flowing, the two bodies would readily mix.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_the_fresh_water_not_mix_with_the_salt_water
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 04:13:20 PM
take the metaforical meaning...use logic.we are the best creation...THINK!!!
Have you abandoned your Big Bang example, by the way?

And why did you mention Lot and his daughters?

Quote
u guys really are not getting the point
You don't explain yourself very well.


Quote
and my english is better than yours
Wrong again.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 04:15:24 PM
the quran taLKS ABOUT THE THE SEA,because it is a very deep book and we have to do tafseer /interpret it we muslims can try... the true meaning is only known by the ahlulbayt/infallibles so, if the water were to be brought to the sea it woukld equal to NO MIX... the quran might be talking ABOUT THAT
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 04:17:43 PM
the water never mixes .. you need to do proper research on this  ive done mine....u guys really are not getting the point and my english is better than yours ... and i live in africa

You are a liar, Shia, and evidently too lazy and frightened to actually do an experiment for yourself.  You have done no research but only spew lies from your fellow Muslims.  You are not interested in any actual facts but to preserve your ignorant religious faith. 

The water mixes even with currents flowing, as my example using the Amazon River has indicated. You have a post that has no source and that is simply wrong.  Pay attention to your sources in your desperation.  You still appear ridiculous. 

Then you ramble on about how you need to "interpret" your book. Funny how your god can't get that clear either and Shia and Sunnis and all of the other sects of Islam love to kill each other over who knows what your useless god really meant. Again, your book is still wrong, no matter how hard you try to excuse it.  Water brought to the sea would also mix with no problem. 

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on December 27, 2011, 04:21:56 PM
if the water were to be brought to the sea it woukld equal to NO MIX... the quran might be talking ABOUT THAT

OK, then...

Please get a glass of fresh water from your tap or wherever.  Add some food coloring to it until it becomes very red.  Take your glass of red fresh water to the ocean and pour it in.  According to what you're claiming, the red water should all stay together because "the water never mixes".  And yet, the red water will disperse over the course of a few minutes or so until you can't see it anymore.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 04:23:24 PM
YES BUT THE QURAN CAN TALK ABOUT THE SEA WHICH DOES NOT MIX
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 04:26:13 PM
I MENTIONED LUT TO SHOW THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW NOTHING BUT A SIMPLE HARRY POTTER BOOK
AND QURAN IS THE ONLY BOOK NEVER CHANGED NOR EVER FALSE
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 27, 2011, 04:26:28 PM
Just a pet-peeve of mine: You do know that typing something out in ALL CAPS doesn't help get your point across any more than it would if you typed like normal people would type.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on December 27, 2011, 04:27:30 PM
YES BUT THE QURAN CAN TALK ABOUT THE SEA WHICH DOES NOT MIX

Lots of books can talk about the sea.  Come to think of it, the New Testament in the Bible talks about the sea, too.

Difference is, it doesn't claim that the sea doesn't mix...when the sea mixes.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 27, 2011, 04:28:02 PM
YES BUT THE QURAN CAN TALK ABOUT THE SEA WHICH DOES NOT MIX

unfortunately for you, the sea does mix.   You've already been told that and how to do an experiment to show yourself that this is true.  Are you too afraid to try it?

The qu'ran is simply wrong.  It is a primitive book written by ignorant men.  It has no "truths" in it at all.   You have been given a list of things where it is utterly wrong and you seem quite desperate to ignore that additional evidence. 

Oh, and writing in all caps makes your claims no more true.   It just shows a desperate man.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on December 27, 2011, 04:30:31 PM
Maybe a different angle...

SMM, what is it that you believe keeps the sea from mixing?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 27, 2011, 04:31:35 PM
the sea and a bucket are different the quran might be speaking about  the sea

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_the_fresh_water_not_mix_with_the_salt_water
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2011, 04:33:47 PM
the water never mixes .. you need to do proper research on this  ive done mine

For Pete's sake...

Quote
Brackish water is water that has more salinity than fresh water, but not as much as seawater.  It may result from mixing of seawater with fresh water, as in estuaries, or it may occur in brackish fossil aquifers.
{bold mine}

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackish_water

Living seven blocks from an estuary, I found this particularly amusing. Of course there are no estuaries in the Middle East to speak of. Once again, showing the document being extremely provincial in nature, showing the bias of geography, culture, food, and language that all mythologies have.

It shows nothing supernatural in nature.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 27, 2011, 04:43:32 PM
SMM:
Quote
I MENTIONED LUT TO SHOW THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW NOTHING BUT A SIMPLE HARRY POTTER BOOK
AND QURAN IS THE ONLY BOOK NEVER CHANGED NOR EVER FALSE
This is a good example of you not explaining yourself well; your first mention of Lot was this (entire) post:
The older daughter, concerned about preserving the family line, suggested to her sister that, because no men were around, it was their duty to preserve the bloodline by lying with their father.[v.31,32]
The daughters then got their father so drunk they were able to have intercourse with him on two consecutive nights, the older daughter having her way with him the first night, followed by the younger on the following night.[v.31-35] The text describes that Lot was so drunk “he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.”[v.33,35]
There's no indication there that you're referring to the Bible story of Lot rather that the Qur'an story, nor why you mentioned it.

Also, if you are going to quote Wikipedia, you should state that you are doing so. If you don't, it's plagiarism, which is against the Forum rules.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on December 27, 2011, 06:29:49 PM
I MENTIONED LUT TO SHOW THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW NOTHING BUT A SIMPLE HARRY POTTER BOOK...

I've read enough of the Qur'an to know that it isn't written nearly as well as the Harry Potter books.

Quote
AND QURAN IS THE ONLY BOOK NEVER CHANGED NOR EVER FALSE

The Qur'an is riddled with falsehoods, and it is one of the most unspeakable tragedies of modern-day humanity that over a billion people think it is true.

The Qur'an claims that a god exists, but offers no empirical evidence.  I think "Allah" is a fictional being.

The Qur'an claims that its god is compassionate, benevolent and merciful, yet this alleged god also supposedly created a place of eternal punishment.  That is not benevolence or mercy or compassion -- It is sadism, torture and egregious abuse of power.  If you worship such a god, you are worshipping a monster.

And seawater mixes with fresh water at every place that fresh-water streams and rivers join with salt-water bays, seas and oceans.  No exceptions.

May the Qur'an cease to make sense to you, and may the doubts grow until you are able to walk away from Islam forever.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Historicity on December 27, 2011, 07:28:15 PM
SMM quoted this site (http://miracle-of-islam.blogspot.com/2009/02/fresh-air-tawar-in-ocean-depth.html):
Quote
Nature of this sea, namely meet each other, but not mixed with each other at all, just found by expert sea. Because the style of physics called "surface tension", waters in the sea close together will not be mixed. Because of the differences caused by the thickness of water, the voltage prevent the surface ocean are both mixed with each other, as if have thin walls in between them.

Further down the same page there is the modern urban legend that Jacques Cousteau became a Moslem:
Quote
Mr. Costeau wonders hearing verses of the Qur'an that, beyond his wondering see the miracle of the never seen the sea. The Quran is impossible prepared by Muhammad who lived in the seventh century, a period when there is no suit the sophisticated equipment to reach remote locations that are far in the ocean depths. Truly a miracle, the news about the bizarre phenomenon of the century 14 terbukti finally back on the 20th century. Mr. Costeau said that the Qur'an is truly holy book that contains the word of God, that all abortion is absolutely correct. With it also immediately embrace Islam.

But here is the major point:
Quote
Paragraph that reads "Marajal bahraini yaltaqiyaan, bainahumaa barzakhun laa yabghiyaan ..." meaning "He let the two oceans meet, among them there is a limit that can not be penetrated."

Obviously the author didn't translate that;  his English looks as bad as my Spanish, to tell the truth.

That's not the quote about the salt and the fresh water.  That's from Koran 55:19-20.  The quote about the salt water is Koran, 25:53:
Quote
He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter.  And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.

Please note word for sea in Arabic is bahrain.  The island we call Bahrain actually means Sea Island.  I can't find the site now but I was informed that the word Mohammed used for barrier was based on an Arabic root for stone.

Here is something weird.[1] Here in Florida before we had the railroad the US government had a postal service on the coast of barefoot mailmen.  They traveled up and down the coast walking where the sand was damp enough to make it firmer.  At once place near me there was no post office but a can nailed to a palm tree.  To buy stamps a person would put money in an envelope addressing it to the postman.  He would take mail from the can to deliver it and put the letters for the residents in it.  There was no town there.  The can was a cocoa can.  The address was "COCOA CAN, FLORIDA", later "COCOA, FLORIDA".  Now to the point.  At Biscayne Bay the postman there would row a boat out.  Sometimes he would take a drink of fresh water from pipe in the bay.  The pipe went down thru the rock and into a well of fresh water.

When I first read that I was sure it was wrong.  The water in rock under the sea must be sea water that seeped down. Later I found it is this way.  Sea water is alkaline.  Carbon dioxide in sea water combines with calcium to form calcium carbonate.  This deposits on the sea bottom and eventually becomes limestone.  With a lower sea level or uplifts of the land or continental collisions you have limestone on land.   

When the rain falls it falls thru air and air has some carbon dioxide in it.  Some of the carbon dioxide is dissolved in the rain.  It becomes carbonic acid.  Therefore all rain is slightly acidic.  When it falls on limestone it reverses the process and eats caverns like Mammoth Cave or Carlsbad Caverns.  In places like Florida the caverns are all under water -- fresh water.  The Florida aquifer is a Swiss cheese of passages.  When we had the major drought in 1996 people could go down into the aquifer.  It has chambers the size of a car.  Occasionally the water dissolves a supporting structure deep down in the aquifer and in a process of a day or so, a sinkhole swallows a house or part of a street.  In a local Indian language the word for sinkhole was alachua.  Alachua County means Sinkhole County.

This dissolution proceeds even in the rocks under the sea for several miles away from the shore.  This is true in a number of places in the world.  Sometimes there is a break and you can find fresh water pooling up in a harbor.  It is distinctively clear.  It is colder but lighter than the sea water and the two types of water remain distinct for a lot longer than common sense will tell you.

Sorry I can't find the source but I read one Moslem making the usual comment that this was unknown to modern science while mentioning one he saw in South America.  His head was so full of Islam[2] that he didn't think that since this is a phenomenon visible to the naked eye it was known long before modern science.

Bahrain Island is like that.  It is surprising that it is a desert but has fresh water wells.  waterwiki.net/index.php/Aquifer_types (http://waterwiki.net/index.php/Aquifer_types) explains it:
Quote
The Al Hasa oasis around Al Hofuf near Dahran in Saudi Arabia is underlain by an enormous artesian aquifer and there are a multitude of natural cracks through which the groundwater pours out. The spring water is hot as it comes from a great depth. The aquifer carries fresh water even into the sea and to the island of Bahrain.
The fresh water comes from the mainland and goes under the sea to Bahrain.

Mohammed may have been speaking of that.

As for the waters of two seas remaining distinct, a flow of water can remain distinct for some time as one body flows into another.  A world map of salinity shows that sea water is not uniformly salty. 
(http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/2010/03/31/SSSALINE.jpg)

Of course, it mixes over time.   Moslems assert otherwise but the Liars for Mohammed are even weirder than the Liars for Jesus.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a Christian who thinks God literally has a storehouse of snow in Heaven which He then sprinkles on the Earth.  That's in the Book of Job.

 1. One of my digressions to fill in background. Sip coffee before starting.
 2. You know what i mean.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 28, 2011, 10:01:16 AM
the sea and a bucket are different the quran might be speaking about  the sea

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_the_fresh_water_not_mix_with_the_salt_water

and we have a theist reduced to making excuses for a supposedly omnipotent/omniscient god that can't get its message across without having to depend on puny humans to translate for it.  Of course, these puny humans can't agree on what this god really means so they kill each other.  Congratulations, Shia, your religion is just as nuts as any other.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 28, 2011, 10:04:02 AM
Of course, it mixes over time.   Moslems assert otherwise but the Liars for Mohammed are even weirder than the Liars for Jesus.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a Christian who thinks God literally has a storehouse of snow in Heaven which He then sprinkles on the Earth.  That's in the Book of Job.

I think that's only because they have no idea what the book of Job says.  That, and theists are very good at ignoring what their magic books say when they are obviously wrong.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 28, 2011, 11:03:30 AM
 GOD does not heal amputees because...it is for their own good if they still follow god then they have passed the test and secured their place in the afterlife...then you ignorant would say Allah/god is unjust than why dont you pray to the almighty to give you this test surely he only tests those who he knows will pass...surely allah is all knowing and his book is the best and forever will be and those who want to see god... pinch yourself the pain will be there but you cant see it,the same way god is there but you cant see him...still ignorant! you are not ready to see him...at 12 noon look at the sun you can look at iy hardly for a minute...how do you expect to see creator when you can hardly look at the creation!!!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on December 28, 2011, 11:05:37 AM
<snip>

I've never read the Qur'an, but:
That argument is against YHWH specifically. The Bible makes promises that he doesn't keep. So, either he's a lying asshole, or he doesn't exist. In fact, the universe works exactly as it should if there were no supernatural.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on December 28, 2011, 11:09:32 AM
GOD does not heal amputees because...it is for their own good if they still follow god then they have passed the test and secured their place in the afterlife...then you ignorant would say Allah/god is unjust than why dont you pray to the almighty to give you this test surely he only tests those who he knows will pass...surely allah is all knowing and his book is the best and forever will be and those who want to see god... pinch yourself the pain will be there but you cant see it,the same way god is there but you cant see him...still ignorant! you are not ready to see him...at 12 noon look at the sun you can look at iy hardly for a minute...how do you expect to see creator when you can hardly look at the creation!!!

How do you know he is there?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 28, 2011, 11:10:34 AM
the quran broadens your mind.think outside the box
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on December 28, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
the quran broadens your mind.think outside the box

I've never found that someone telling me what to do made me think outside the box. If anything, it shoved the box around my head and made it too tight to even breathe.
EDIT: shia, how does your god feel about non-heterosexuals[1]? Something which occurs in nature (and, if nature isn't natural, I don't know what is) and has been proven to not be a choice?
 1. Asexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 28, 2011, 11:16:15 AM
then who created the universe...an atheist can never give a straight answer...atleast everyone should believe in one god then we can argue
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on December 28, 2011, 11:16:55 AM
then who created the universe...an atheist can never give a straight answer...atleast everyone should believe in one god then we can argue

Assumes that something created the universe. Try again.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 28, 2011, 11:17:14 AM
the quran broadens your mind.think outside the box

OK. Based on my knowledge of the koran I am doing what you told me it does: thinking outside the box. I think the god written inside the koran is just as mythical and YHWH, the Lock Ness Monster, Bigfoot, and the monster under my bed, the evil monkey in my closet, and the lucky rabbits foot I have on my key ring. Allah is just the same as all of those. Thanks for clearing that up for me. It strengthened my views.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 28, 2011, 11:21:41 AM
then who created the universe...an atheist can never give a straight answer...atleast everyone should believe in one god then we can argue

Atheists (as I like to call them here, scientists, because religious faith has nothing to do with scientific findings) have a very good and sound answer. It's called the Big Bang, and contrary to what you want to believe, that Allah is behind the big bang like you tried to say here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17574.msg467066.html#msg467066), he isn't. And I can't even begin to see how this verse shows that your god was behind the big bang. It doesn't even come close to saying what the big bang says.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on December 28, 2011, 11:25:02 AM
then who created the universe...an atheist can never give a straight answer...atleast everyone should believe in one god then we can argue

Again, how do you KNOW your god exists?  Show us...we are far more open-minded than any theist.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 28, 2011, 11:34:20 AM
how do i know you get hurt when i throw a 4000 kilo van on you ill see blood no pain.i know that allah is there when i think about who created the universe....bigfoot nor anyone else ever produced a beauty like quran
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 28, 2011, 11:50:24 AM
how do i know you get hurt when i throw a 4000 kilo van on you ill see blood no pain.

Well, if you throw a van on someone they will probably die. You can see blood, but not see that person in pain because the van finished them off. And, really, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Has Allah thrown a van on someone? :-\

Quote
i know that allah is there when i think about who created the universe....

OK, typical response from any theist. You need to start thinking outside the box. Again: Nowhere does the koran even come close to explaining the big bag scientifically. All religious text can be used by their followers to show how the big bang happened, but scientifically speaking, that religious text doesn't even come close to what scientists have to say regarding the big bang.

The first chapters in Genesis portray an identical image as to how the universe began as the koran does.

It claims:

This:

“The heaven and the earth were
joint together. And We clove them…(Surah
Anbiya,21:30).

doesn't even imply what the big bang says. Not even close. Not by a long shot. 

It doesn't talk about a singularity. It doesn't talk about particle annihilation. It doesn't talk about the four fundamental forces. It doesn't talk about matter and anti-matter. None of that, but all of which is included in the theory known as the big bang cosmology, and it doesn't even begin to explain cosmology. It makes no mention of general relativity, red shift, etc. There is no where in the koran, bible or any other holy book the explains the big bang.

Swing and a miss.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on December 28, 2011, 12:00:13 PM
how do i know you get hurt when i throw a 4000 kilo van on you ill see blood no pain.i know that allah is there when i think about who created the universe....bigfoot nor anyone else ever produced a beauty like quran

Surely you can do better than this?  If you truly have Allah on your side, it would be no problem at all to show us he is real?  We are waiting, and will convert to Islam if Allah is an actual god, and can show us his clear message of peace?

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on December 28, 2011, 12:05:39 PM
GOD does not heal amputees because...it is for their own good if they still follow god then they have passed the test and secured their place in the afterlife...then you ignorant would say Allah/god is unjust than why dont you pray to the almighty to give you this test surely he only tests those who he knows will pass...surely allah is all knowing and his book is the best and forever will be and those who want to see god... pinch yourself the pain will be there but you cant see it,the same way god is there but you cant see him...still ignorant! you are not ready to see him...at 12 noon look at the sun you can look at iy hardly for a minute...how do you expect to see creator when you can hardly look at the creation!!!

If I pray to Allah to test me and instead of being merely crippled or maimed I die, what then? Since I failed the test do I burn in Hell as a result of asking Him for strength?

As a child I was told not to look directly at the sun, that it would damage my eyes. I was the sort of person who had to discover many things on my own for myself. So I stared at the sun. It made my eyes water but I can tell you that I stared the sun down and still have 20/20 vision 27 years later.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 28, 2011, 12:12:35 PM
SMM:
Quote
bigfoot nor anyone else ever produced a beauty like quran
The graphic descriptions of the torture of non-believers in Hell aren't beautiful e.g. forcing people to drink boiling pus:

78:21 Verily, hell is an ambush; a reward for the outrageous, to tarry therein for ages. They shall not taste therein cool nor drink, but only boiling water and pus; a fit reward!

18:29 We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces.

22:19-22 But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron.



And do you believe that a person's fate is written in the Preserved Tablet (al-Lawhu 'l-Mahfuz), SMM? Do you believe that when a person's soul is created, the angels mark it to go to Heaven or Hell after death?

And do you think that's fair of Allah, to create people in the knowledge that they are going to Hell, no matter what they do? As the Qur'an says:

2:4 And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. 
2:5 These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.
 
2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. 
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering.
Theirs will be an awful doom.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aaron123 on December 28, 2011, 12:19:16 PM
i know that allah is there when i think about who created the universe....

Ok then.

Who were Allah's mommy and daddy?

After all, if the universe requires a creator, then who/what created the creator?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on December 28, 2011, 01:31:39 PM
the quran broadens your mind.think outside the box

I've never found that someone telling me what to do made me think outside the box. If anything, it shoved the box around my head and made it too tight to even breathe.
EDIT: shia, how does your god feel about non-heterosexuals[1]? Something which occurs in nature (and, if nature isn't natural, I don't know what is) and has been proven to not be a choice?
 1. Asexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals.


Outside of the box, if you labeled the box "reality"
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Historicity on December 28, 2011, 01:39:55 PM
the quran broadens your mind.think outside the box
35 years ago I was working in a situation where I'd eat breakfast at a pancake house every morning.  I had decided to read the Koran and had gotten a copy.  So I read some every morning at breakfast.

And, yeah, I had bacon with my eggs while reading it.

As I finished up one morning I rose saying to the waitress, "Nothing like a hellfire sermon from Mohammed to start the day."

"I prefer orange juice," she answered.

I found one interesting insight in it about charity.  I found a reference to Yug Sothoth, one of the Great Old Ones of H.P.Lovecraft's Chthulhu Mythos.  Other than that I found it kind of boring.  The Bible had better story tellers, better aphorisms, etc, generally speaking.  I must admit I did like that part about the angels using comets or meteors as weapons to make demon spies who are trying to eavesdrop back off.  I liked the part about Solomon's court where some of the counselors are enslaved devils and one of them transported the Queen of Sheba's throne thru an underground tunnel to surprise her when she got there.  So it wasn't all a loss.

Since 'tis the season to be jolly I'll mention that Santa Claus is in the Koran.  That is, there is a Christian myth that one of the miracles of St. Nicholas was that he could speak Greek the day he was born.  Mohammed, garbling stuff as he usually did, attributed that miracle to Jesus.

So does that fit the definition of broadening my thinking?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Historicity on December 28, 2011, 01:49:15 PM
how do i know you get hurt when i throw a 4000 kilo van on you ill see blood no pain.i know that allah is there when i think about who created the universe....bigfoot nor anyone else ever produced a beauty like quran

Huhhhhhh?????  What do you mean by Bigfoot?  What have you heard?

Bigfoot is an alleged American Indian belief about a sort of were-bear.  I was told by an Indian that its status was not a belief but a story to entertain and scare children.  The Indians were snickering at the white scientists who took it seriously and thought it might be an unknown ape of the North American woods.

But you seem to be referring to the author of some work.  So again, what do you mean?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on December 28, 2011, 01:58:30 PM
Outside of the box, if you labeled the box "reality"

So that's what the theists mean when they say "outside the box"!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 28, 2011, 02:42:40 PM
GOD does not heal amputees because...it is for their own good if they still follow god then they have passed the test and secured their place in the afterlife...then you ignorant would say Allah/god is unjust than why dont you pray to the almighty to give you this test surely he only tests those who he knows will pass...surely allah is all knowing and his book is the best and forever will be and those who want to see god...
  No, it's not sure at all.  In fact, it is absolutely not true, no matter the lies that believers like you might tell.   Your god is a asshole, to translate, no better than the anus of a goat,  too for not healing people when it would help them.  It's always the liar who promises something after one is dead.

it's also pretty moronic to only test those who will pass. What's the point?  A little sadism?  Or is your god not the omnipotent being you claim since it fails so badly and so constantly?
Quote
pinch yourself the pain will be there but you cant see it,the same way god is there but you cant see him...still ignorant! you are not ready to see him...at 12 noon look at the sun you can look at iy hardly for a minute...how do you expect to see creator when you can hardly look at the creation!!!
  Ooooh, and again, you are evidently too willfully ignorant to actually pay attention to posts that have shown your claims to be unsupportable.   Yep, Shia, dear, I can say that Vishnu did all you claim your god to have done and you can't show that I'm wrong or that you are right. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on December 28, 2011, 03:12:39 PM
I am say since the council of Nicea, which assembled the Bible,...

actually, it didn't.  It is a common mistake. I used to think that too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Bible#Fifty_Bibles_of_Constantine
Quote
There is no evidence among the canons of the First Council of Nicaea of any determination on the canon,...
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on December 29, 2011, 12:24:03 AM
then who created the universe...an atheist can never give a straight answer...

Here's My straight answer:  What's all this "Who" nonsense?  I don't think the universe was created by a sentient being.  I think that some kind of matter or energy was always there.  If energy didn't already exist in some form or another, even a god would be powerless to do anything.

Quote
atleast everyone should believe in one god then we can argue

Okay, but *I* get to pick the one god.  I pick... Me!   8)  I hereby command you to:


That's it.  That's all.  And I don't care how many times a day you worship Me, or if you worship Me at all.  I'm a goddess.  I don't need to be worshipped, and I'd much rather you spend your life doing something else, such as helping the men and women in your home community.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 29, 2011, 01:32:50 AM
how do i know you get hurt when i throw a 4000 kilo van on you ill see blood no pain.i know that allah is there when i think about who created the universe....bigfoot nor anyone else ever produced a beauty like quran

Huhhhhhh?????  What do you mean by Bigfoot?  What have you heard?

Bigfoot is an alleged American Indian belief about a sort of were-bear.  I was told by an Indian that its status was not a belief but a story to entertain and scare children.  The Indians were snickering at the white scientists who took it seriously and thought it might be an unknown ape of the North American woods.

But you seem to be referring to the author of some work.  So again, what do you mean?
Bigfoot as we refer to him(yes he is REAL) is a wildman of the woods....I dare say I take him quite seriously (I am an Indian)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on December 29, 2011, 09:14:44 AM
very appropriate new Jesus and Mo comic:

(http://cdn.nearlyfreespeech.net/jandmstatic/strips/2011-12-28.png)

http://www.jesusandmo.net/2011/12/28/lack2/

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shnozzola on December 29, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
While  the religious writings and thoughts are usually the arguments,  the deeds of the religions are also the story.  Many Christians adapt their beliefs to conform to modern society, as do many Muslims.  I find these folks to be reasonable to deal with.  But some beliefs become a danger.  Maybe I missed this earlier, but for starters Shia, what are your views about the education of women?   What are your views concerning homosexuality? And, do you feel like you need to punish infidels ?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 31, 2011, 02:27:00 PM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural and for such a person,penalty is to be stoned to death(there must be witnesses).
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on December 31, 2011, 02:29:39 PM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural and for such a person,penalty is to be stoned to death(there must be witnesses).

Non-heterosexuality has been proven to be as natural as heterosexuality. Animals have homosexual relationships all the time. Since they don't have free will, your god created them that way.

So, either your god created sinful creatures (and therefore sin itself), making it undeserving of worship, or the things you think you know about it are wrong (its existence, for example). Pick one.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 31, 2011, 02:35:59 PM
2:256,there is no compulsion in religion
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on December 31, 2011, 02:39:29 PM
2:256,there is no compulsion in religion

...Without any sort of context, this is just preaching. What is this supposed to answer?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 31, 2011, 02:41:24 PM
no it is not normal.and animals do not do it either
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on December 31, 2011, 02:42:46 PM
no it is not normal.

Yeah it is.

and animals do not do it either

Yeah they do. Use Google. You'll find tons of info on that.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shia muslim monotheist on December 31, 2011, 02:45:41 PM
it answers something recently asked...just few posts ago
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on December 31, 2011, 02:50:41 PM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural and for such a person,penalty is to be stoned to death(there must be witnesses).

If homosexuality is not natural then why do other species engage in homosexual behavior.

For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

If sex is only meant for procreation[1] what about other sexual acts that aren't "natural" like oral sex or male-female anal sex? Should those people be stoned to death also? Or wearing condoms. Does islam hate that also?

Personally speaking stoning someone to death for what they do in the bedroom, even if it is against religious teaching, is a very very harsh, gross, demented and fucked up penalty.

EDIT: and even having the nerve to care what two people do in the bedroom is gross. It's really no one elses business what goes on sexually between two people. Whether it be one person renting a prostitute for the night, two people being swingers, two friends with no romantic attachment to each other deciding to have sex, etc. It's no one else's business, and there's nothing wrong with what they're doing.
 1. Not that you said that but if by natural it seems like sex is only for procreation
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shnozzola on December 31, 2011, 03:07:57 PM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural and for such a person,penalty is to be stoned to death(there must be witnesses).

I'm glad that you say it is a must for all people to be educated.  I wish all Muslims agreed.  How do you feel about stoning homosexuals?  Have you done it?  Seen it done?  Have you had family members stone homosexuals to death?  How many stones does it take to kill a person?  The death would come slow, I would imagine.  Slower than arrows.  I remember seeing videos of christians in central Africa burning suspected witches.  The folks being burned seemed to be so down trodden they just quietly excepted it.  I would think homosexual people would be they same - with the stoning.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: shnozzola on December 31, 2011, 03:34:40 PM
On second thought, I suppose, Shia, you have no homosexuals in your part of the world, correct?  Stoning as a penalty will do that.  I remember their was a South African women track star a couple years ago that was so good, they checked, and realized, due to genetic problems, she had a penis, and was transgender - would you have stoned her - how would you have made a desicion about her lifestyle - or just stoned, to be on the safe side?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on December 31, 2011, 07:34:02 PM
no it is not normal.and animals do not do it either

You're wrong!  Read  Emily's link on homosexual behaviour in animals.  Many species of animals practice homosexual behaviour.

As the Qur'an obviously does not have the truth about animal behaviour or salt water, why should we think that it's right about anything else?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 31, 2011, 07:41:51 PM
no it is not normal.and animals do not do it either

You're wrong!  Read  Emily's link on homosexual behaviour in animals.  Many species of animals practice homosexual behaviour.

As the Qur'an obviously does not have the truth about animal behaviour or salt water, why should we think that it's right about anything else?
SSM says so thats why....same sex animal matings have been pointed out to him several times in this topic SSM just dodges or ignores
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on January 01, 2012, 04:42:31 AM
SMM won't admit that salt water mixes with fresh water.  He's not going to admit that animals have teh ghey.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 01, 2012, 08:20:17 PM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural and for such a person,penalty is to be stoned to death(there must be witnesses).
Is this so the women will know there place*everyone must be educated*
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on January 03, 2012, 11:05:08 AM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.

What kind of education?  Does it include science and liberal arts?  Or is it just education on the koran?  I have read that many islamic schools only teach the koran, which is a problem.  There is more to understanding the world than what is contained in the koran.  So by not learning these other subjects, muslims are keeping themselves ignorant.

islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural ...

Define "not natural".  I do not understand what that means.  As I see it, that is like saying eating apples is not natural.  Some people eat apples, others do not.

Mainly when we talk about things being natural we mean "natually occurring".  For example, apple trees are natural, but cruise missiles are not.  However, it is natural that people would want to have cruise missles as it ties in with our natural impulses to protect ourselves or agressively force other people to submit to our will.

So in what way is homosexuality not natural?

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Tykster on January 04, 2012, 04:20:38 PM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural and for such a person,penalty is to be stoned to death(there must be witnesses).

Is "Fuck Off" an appropriate phrase to use here?  Just asking in case I need it in the future...
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on January 10, 2012, 09:51:03 AM
.....islam hates homosexuality because is NOT natural.....

That PC you're typing on.....pick it off a tree did you? 

Do you wear glasses?  Eat processed foods?  Drive a car?  Take any medicines?  None of them are "natural", either.....they just weren't around when the goat-herders with "issues" decided what was and wasn't right.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: ungod on January 13, 2012, 02:15:24 PM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.

Is that why girls suffer acid attacks in Afghanistan to dissuade them from attending school?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: ungod on January 21, 2012, 04:05:11 AM
in islam it is a MUST for every muslim male or female to be educated,as per the holy prophets saying.

Is that why girls suffer acid attacks in Afghanistan to dissuade them from attending school?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: DR HANS SCHWANTZ on February 23, 2012, 06:51:37 PM
A common philosophical question is, "Why do we exist?" Given these two insights, we can now answer the question definitively: There is no "reason" for our existence.

“No reason is the same as “just because”…so we are to believe that because I think, I exist, the answer to my question as to why I exist is simply no reason? Really it is not enough for some of us to blindly walk through life and not understand why I exist except that there is no reason for it. It simply would be the same to accept that a particular button is installed in my car and if I ask the reason its there, and the response is, there simply is no reason for its existence, I would wonder why its there to be begin with? Makes no sense. If this “no reason” is true for other things in life, then these things just exist for no reason and they are just here.”

The fact is that we do exist. Through an evolutionary process, nature has created rational creatures called human beings.

"Now nature has been substituted for God? The statement above implies by stating “nature has created” that somehow whether by intelligence on the part of nature, by blind chance or chemical mixing or amoeba combining etc., life as we see it came about. This really is the same as leaving God in the sentence in place of nature. As an engineer myself I have never observed nature assemble an electronic device. Ok I did not observe it for billions of years of supposed evolution, but I somehow suspect that “nature” still will not make a computer in the next billion years.

In the end we all have to admit we really do not know whether a creator exists called God nor do we understand how “nature” somehow came to be, exists and created all we see. And since from the other statement that there is “no reason” for our existence, why did nature create us? For no reason? 

This whole existence really still makes no sense and leaves one completely empty because we have to admit we simply do not understand or know why we exist for any reason except that we do for no reason really known to us.

Personally, I feel a creator that exists somewhere in the form of energy is responsible for our existence. Why? Simply because it just makes more sense to me to have a responsible creator than simply nature that is not intelligent.  How all this works I do not know, just my point as your point from your internet book pointed out, no reason for our existence was your stance on it all.  I also feel that we have to look beyond the Bible to understand it all if we can. However, admitting that we just don’t understand it at all is no shame. Yes, we want answers and so the speculation will continue.

Until we could ever find out the end of space and what is really out there, and maybe find answers this way, really we have no way of knowing at all. There just seems so much we do not understand even about space and why it exists itself, to fully rule out any other possibilities for why life exists.
One thing we know for sure it that the universe itself does not care that we exist. For if it did I am sure we would feel connected to it and somehow would be in communication with it somehow.”

 

 


Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Alzael on February 23, 2012, 07:06:55 PM
This whole existence really still makes no sense and leaves one completely empty because we have to admit we simply do not understand or know why we exist for any reason except that we do for no reason really known to us.

Personally, I feel a creator that exists somewhere in the form of energy is responsible for our existence. Why? Simply because it just makes more sense to me to have a responsible creator than simply nature that is not intelligent.  How all this works I do not know, just my point as your point from your internet book pointed out, no reason for our existence was your stance on it all.  I also feel that we have to look beyond the Bible to understand it all if we can. However, admitting that we just don’t understand it at all is no shame. Yes, we want answers and so the speculation will continue.


Argument from ignorance/incredulity. Nothing new, intelligent, or insightful.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: monkeymind on February 23, 2012, 07:22:10 PM
Really it is not enough for some of us to blindly walk through life and not understand why I exist except that there is no reason for it.

"Now nature has been substituted for God?

 As an engineer myself I have never observed nature assemble an electronic device.

In the end we all have to admit we really do not know whether a creator exists

We create the reason for our existence.

Nature came first. God has been substituted for nature.

As part of nature and an electrical engineer I have seen plenty electronic devices assembled, often by my own hands.

I don't know if a creator exists, but I have no reason to believe one does.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on February 23, 2012, 07:22:46 PM
This whole existence really still makes no sense and leaves one completely empty because we have to admit we simply do not understand or know why we exist for any reason except that we do for no reason really known to us.

Welcome DR HANS.

We obviously look at the world a bit differently. Because though I don't know why we exist either, that doesn't bother me any more than not knowing how many octopi are around some big coral reef south of Tahiti.

What any one of us know, about anything, is just the tiniest sliver what what can be known. What we know we don't know is a much larger sliver. And then there is the part where we don't know what we don't know, which is a humongous amount. To let that type of ignorance bother me would be the same as being bothered by not knowing what radio signals are going through me right now (how much Rush Limbaugh, how much NPR?). And that's not an issue, any more than not knowing the specifics of why we exist.

I do like it that people are out there looking. And I enjoy trying to keep up with their various findings. But my day to day existence is not dependent on knowing my either my origins or my future. Other than knowing I'm going to die some day and dealing with my everyday existence, which is a bit boring, my future is no clearer than my past. Or the past of the universe. Yet I get by, unencumbered by what is, right now, excusable ignorance. We just plain don't know.

I could fill all of that with some imaginary force. I'd be making it up because one of the things about not knowing is that ignorance part. Complete ignorance. At least about the specifics. Even the big guns don't understand the specifics of the big bang, or what came before it. So for me to either make up my own story or listen to what some sheepherders came up with 2,000 years ago, or to seek any other explanation, is of no importance. A hundred billion people have lived and died without accurate info on the subject. I ain't special, so I don't think I need any more info than they had. I'm not in the mood to conjure up something and let that imaginary story comfort me. I don't need comfort so bad that I'm willing to lie to myself about it.

Am I curious? Yes. Am I feeling needy about answers? No.. I've got breakfast to make, work to do, friends to see, forums to post on, money to save, a new nephew to spoil and high gas prices to complain about. I don't have time to worry about why.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on February 24, 2012, 08:33:42 AM
A common philosophical question is, "Why do we exist?"

Perhaps it is a nonsensical question?  Like,"what color is auto repair?" Or "what sound does green make?"  Sure, sometimes random words may sound deep and enigmatic, but that is just asthetics.  Just because you can string the words together does not mean they make any sense arranged thusly. 


Personally, I feel a creator that exists somewhere in the form of energy is responsible for our existence.

I think you are thinking energy is a glowing ball of plasma-like substance.  That's not what energy is.  Energy also isn't intelligent.  That is because it is, for the most part, just an idea that helps us understand mass and motion.

Until we could ever find out the end of space...

There is another example of words strung together to form a deep sounding, but actually meaningless phrase.  The end of space.  Are you even sure there is such a thing?  And if you find it, how can there be a beyond? 


 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: monkeymind on February 24, 2012, 08:39:35 AM
Dr: What was your area of study there at Chadwick U?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on February 24, 2012, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: DR HANS SCHWANTZ link=topic=17574.msg479484#msg479484
This whole .....existence really still makes no sense and leaves one completely empty ........”

It may leave YOU completely empty - which is why you feel the need to make something up to fill yourself with - but it is by no means a universal problem.

Have you ever wondered what it is about your life that predisposes you to feeling purposeless?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on February 24, 2012, 10:03:03 AM
"Now nature has been substituted for God? The statement above implies by stating “nature has created” that somehow whether by intelligence on the part of nature, by blind chance or chemical mixing or amoeba combining etc., life as we see it came about. This really is the same as leaving God in the sentence in place of nature.

First of all there are three claims here, all of which are false.

Crystal are neither made by intelligence, or random. The come about because of the properties of the components, when the components do not have those properties, crystals do not come about.

So it goes back in regression to the particles and properties of the unioverse, it was neither blind chance...nor intelligence. If the laws of nature do not have properties, the universe does not come into being. It has, all those particles and law have those properties.

Therefore it is not the same as "god" and "nature" as far as the universe goes.


Secondly cut and paste as your first post? Shows a great lack of respect on your part, you should be ashamed.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on February 24, 2012, 10:28:39 AM
As an engineer myself I have never observed nature assemble an electronic device. Ok I did not observe it for billions of years of supposed evolution, but I somehow suspect that “nature” still will not make a computer in the next billion years.
Nature did build an electronic device.  Humans are part of nature.  Always curious when humans try to claim they aren’t. 
Quote
This whole existence really still makes no sense and leaves one completely empty because we have to admit we simply do not understand or know why we exist for any reason except that we do for no reason really known to us.
Sorry, but your claims that one is completely empty is nonsense and nothing more than an appeal to emotion.  This existence makes sense to me.  We’re the result of physical processes and we live our lives as we like, giving them meaning ourselves. 
Quote
Personally, I feel a creator that exists somewhere in the form of energy is responsible for our existence. Why? Simply because it just makes more sense to me to have a responsible creator than simply nature that is not intelligent.  How all this works I do not know, just my point as your point from your internet book pointed out, no reason for our existence was your stance on it all.  I also feel that we have to look beyond the Bible to understand it all if we can. However, admitting that we just don’t understand it at all is no shame. Yes, we want answers and so the speculation will continue.
As has been said, an argument from personal incredulity based on nothing.  Your response to “we don’t know *yet*” is “Goddidit”.  It’s just your personally made up version of “god”.  As for a “responsible creator” your creator is quite an idiot considering the screwups it’s made.
Quote
Until we could ever find out the end of space and what is really out there, and maybe find answers this way, really we have no way of knowing at all. There just seems so much we do not understand even about space and why it exists itself, to fully rule out any other possibilities for why life exists.
Well, Hans, if you have evidence for this god then show it.  Your argument is basically [wiki]Russell’s Teapot[/wiki].   

Quote
One thing we know for sure it that the universe itself does not care that we exist. For if it did I am sure we would feel connected to it and somehow would be in communication with it somehow.”
The universe can’t care.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Historicity on February 24, 2012, 10:57:04 AM
Until we could ever find out the end of space and what is really out there, and maybe find answers this way, really we have no way of knowing at all. There just seems so much we do not understand even about space and why it exists itself, to fully rule out any other possibilities for why life exists.

These 2 sentences are so badly written that your material seems not to be a Poe (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe) but a Sokal (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sokal).
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: monkeymind on February 24, 2012, 11:37:55 AM
Hey Doc:

Any relationship to the Hans S. of the Hitler Youth movement?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: monkeymind on February 24, 2012, 11:51:21 AM
Are you gonna answer any questions? Engage in any conversations or is this gonna be like your typical posting history...say at Black Atheist, and elsewhere?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Historicity on February 24, 2012, 03:23:49 PM
I wondered how someone could get a doctorate and still write like he hadn't taken English 101 Composition.

Googling I found this (http://www.onlinedegreereviews.org/college/chadwick-university-reviews/older-comments/):
Quote
I graduated from Chadwick U in the 90's and enjoyed the program. Accreditation is just another form of discrimination designed to lock out people that decide to do things their way and learn the way they want to learn. Many colleges are designed to take your money and do not want to accept credits no matter where from in extracting the most money from students much as a car dealership strives to maximize the most they can get from customers. Employers that are in bed with accredited colleges are working to hire only graduates from specific colleges simply because of the money that exchanges between the college and company. Its all a game...look back at the earlier centuries of time, and notice that many brilliant scientists, mathematicians and others never went to college yet were Renaissance type scholars who knew and excelled at many subjects.

I am surprised that since we are moving towards a one world order that one is not forced yet to enter a school that the government or employer wants you to go to in order to receive monetary compensation to make a living at.

So like Frank Sinatra said, “I did it my way” still rings true for those of use that want to think and do for ourselves without having to follow the crowd.

Peace Out
Dr. Hans Schwantz

This is not an Argumentum ad Hominem, aka, cheap shot.  He tossed his title at us.  That is an Argumentum ad Verecundiam, aka, credential bullying, so I am tossing back at him.

BTW, I have an Award of Arms in the Society for Creative Anachronism so it would behoove you all to address me as Lord Historicity.

I can hold my breath for about 2 minutes ..........................................


phew!  gasp, pant.

OK, I give up.  You're not going to address me by that title.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on February 24, 2012, 04:25:00 PM
I wondered how someone could get a doctorate and still write like he hadn't taken English 101 Composition.


Diploma mill, particularly Doctorates of Theology are easy to come by. Considered buying one for $100.00 to go with my title of Reverend.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: rickymooston on February 24, 2012, 08:17:48 PM
A common philosophical question is, "Why do we exist?"

I agree; this is a common philosophical question.

Quote
Given these two insights, we can now answer the question definitively: There is no "reason" for our existence.

What "two insights".

On what level do you want the question answered?  ;)

Hint: One some level, we inherently don't know.

Quote
“No reason is the same as “just because”…

As some rather angry atheists have pointed out, you've forgotten about "I don't know".



Quote
The fact is that we do exist. Through an evolutionary process, nature has created rational creatures called human beings.
[/quoter]

Yes, this is a fact.

Quote
"Now nature has been substituted for God?

Not really. "Nature" is code for what we can observe; i.e., those processes that go around us.

Quote
This really is the same as leaving God in the sentence in place of nature.

It depends; some definition of the word God refer to things we observe such as the sun and even evolution.

As an engineer myself I have never observed nature assemble an electronic device.
[/quote]

I doubt that you are an 'engineer' but lts grant you that.

A sensible definition of nature would include human activity but in any case we would not expect electronic devices to evolve.

Quote
Ok I did not observe it for billions of years of supposed evolution, but I somehow suspect that “nature” still will not make a computer in the next billion years.

Nature made men and men made computers so you have been proven wrong.

Quote
This whole existence really still makes no sense and leaves one completely empty because we have to admit we simply do not understand or know why we exist for any reason except that we do for no reason really known to us.

I agree that there lies a bit of a paradox to our intuition.

As for being "empty", I disagree. A feeling of being with it is rather subjective.

[quote
Personally, I feel a creator that exists somewhere in the form of energy is responsible for our existence. Why? Simply because it just makes more sense to me to have a responsible creator than simply nature that is not intelligent.
[/quote]

It only makes sense unless you inquire on the origin of and nature of the creator.  :police: The intuition i can relate to but its speculation. Speculation is fun but its not conclusive.

Quote
How all this works I do not know

Exactly. As I agreed with you at the beginning.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on February 25, 2012, 12:40:07 AM
This is not an Argumentum ad Hominem, aka, cheap shot.  He tossed his title at us.  That is an Argumentum ad Verecundiam, aka, credential bullying, so I am tossing back at him.

BTW, I have an Award of Arms in the Society for Creative Anachronism so it would behoove you all to address me as Lord Historicity.

Can I call you "Lord H." for short?  "Lord Historicity" doesn't roll off the tongue very well.

And as long as we're trotting out credentials...

(Springy G reaches into Her wallet and pulls out the 2012 membership card for the Asgard Deities' Union, Local 204)

...Astreja K. Odinsdóttir, goddess of the Northern hemisphere vernal equinox; chocolate; punctuation {glares momentarily at Dr. Schwantz}; and random equipment malfunctions.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: rickymooston on February 25, 2012, 03:56:26 PM
The question WHY GOD WONT CURE AMPUTEES is not relevant if you consider it in Hinduist faith, but is in Christian faith. So, from that perspective i submit that my post here might have some merit to the reader. Thank you.

Actually, quite frankly, I don't think its "relavent" to the Christian faith either.

No, perhaps, if the question was, Why didn't Jesus heal amputees, we'd be talking.

The magazines you subscribe to aren't very relavent. On of the most extreme Christian creationists I've ever seen has a genuine phd in physics.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on February 25, 2012, 04:05:06 PM
After all this time, Ricky still doesn't understand the point of the "WWGHA" question.

Puzzling.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Cmerry92 on February 28, 2012, 03:32:18 AM
Let's say God healed every amputee. As soon as one believed in God their ligament would grow back. Faith would be completely destroyed. No one would doubt God's existence.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on February 28, 2012, 03:37:01 AM
Let's say God healed every amputee. As soon as one believed in God their ligament would grow back.
<snip>
No one would doubt God's existence.

If your god healed every amputee in a way that everyone knew it was her/it/him, then yes, nobody would doubt her/its/his existence.

Faith would be completely destroyed.

Are you saying this is a bad thing?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 28, 2012, 04:49:37 AM
According to the bible the angels knew god existed yet 1/3rd of these angels chose to betray god. This can be seen as an analogy for humans, especially since we are infinitely less perfect than angels. Even if humans knew god existed (no faith required) some humans should still choose to not worship god (at least according to Christians, I think god could have created a world in which everyone had free will and still chose to worship him).

On one hand you have a god that emphasizes faith so that only the worthy, obedient, and diligent enter heaven; on the other hand, in the new testament, we see a different god, a caring, merciful, loving god that always forgives his children. One would think that every generation would perceive god the same since god never changes, but the truth is that the perception of god has continued to change since his conception a couple thousand years ago.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on February 28, 2012, 06:02:44 AM
Faith would be completely destroyed. No one would doubt God's existence.

And to join the chorus: so what?

The angels had no "faith", yet they were still able to choose.  Adam and Eve needed no faith, nor did Noah, or Moses.  Not one disciple needed "faith" - yet they were still able to choose to follow, or to deny, or to betray.

So what's the big deal about faith?  Damn near every person mentioned in the Bible is acting on knowledge rather than faith, so why the big change from 40CE onwards?  Indeed, why so much direct manifestation of god at all, if "faith" is so important?

The answer of course is that "faith" HAS to be extolled as a virtue, precisely because there IS no evidence, in the same way as the "thou shalt not test thy god" having to be in there as well (despite of course there being specific biblical examples of testing god).  Only a religion that makes a virtue of having no evidence and refusing to test could survive the millenia.  But such a religion MUST, perforce, be nothing more than a "best guess", since ANY evidence put forward will by definition erode the faith that you deem so important.

So I'm interested - do you really believe based on nothing?  Or do you believe there IS evidence for your beliefs - and does the existence of that evidence dissolve your faith?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on February 28, 2012, 09:33:53 AM
Let's say God healed every amputee. As soon as one believed in God their ligament would grow back. Faith would be completely destroyed. No one would doubt God's existence.

your savior said that his miracles were to be believed in to prove his claims about this god (John 10, in case you are as ignorant about your own bible as most Christians are). Per your own bible, this god and his supposed son don't agree with your claims at all and they weren't afraid at all that people would suddenly "have no faith".  Why is that, Cmerry?  Why is it that Christains now have to make up excuses about their god that aren't supported by this god's actions in the bible?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on February 28, 2012, 10:52:08 AM
Let's say God healed every amputee. As soon as one believed in God their ligament would grow back. Faith would be completely destroyed. No one would doubt God's existence.

So according to your Holy Book, there were numerous figures that interacted dierectly with God. Are you saying that the Faith of say, Moses, was worthless?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aaron123 on February 28, 2012, 10:57:52 AM
Let's say God healed every amputee. As soon as one believed in God their ligament would grow back. Faith would be completely destroyed. No one would doubt God's existence.

Nobody in the bible had "faith" in god, since they knew that he existed.  It was as plain to them the same way that rocks exists.

So at what point did this basic knowledge become "wrong"?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on February 29, 2012, 02:09:07 AM
Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...

HE/SHE WANTS THE AMPUTEES TO HELP THEMSELVES!
 :)
SIMPLE
;)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on February 29, 2012, 03:45:58 AM
Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...

HE/SHE WANTS THE AMPUTEES TO HELP THEMSELVES!
 :)
SIMPLE
;)

Ah, someone else who doesn't really understand the point of the WWGHA question - we get that a lot, Orpat, so don't worry!

The point of the WWGHA question is that there are (we are told) any amount of things that god will step in and do: heal cancer; make it rain; make legs longer; leave water bottles in the desert.....in short, god will do almost anything......

.....but the one thing he seemingly will not do, is heal an amputee[1].  So for your point above - "s/he wants them to help themselves" - you will need to explain why that ONLY applies to amputees, and not to any other condition where god allwgedly intervenes.
 1. or anything else that could not happen by chance, or as a result of human intervention
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on February 29, 2012, 05:33:36 AM
 Anfauglir


Ah, someone else who doesn't really understand the point of the WWGHA question - we get that a lot, Orpat, so don't worry!


.....but the one thing he seemingly will not do, is heal an amputee[1].  So for your point above - "s/he wants them to help themselves" - you will need to explain why that ONLY applies to amputees, and not to any other condition where god allwgedly intervenes.


I feel there could be only one answer to this Question - If your Religion doesn't Answer your  Question, its time you changed your religion. 8)


[/b]
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Ambassador Pony on February 29, 2012, 06:05:04 AM
orpat,

This post is in red because I am speaking as a moderator. No response is necessary.

In order to continue posting here, you will need to read the rules in the FAQ section of the forum.

To get started, stop posting in all bold and in all caps. Those are conventions of writing with specific purposes on a forum. Also, the FAQ section is where you can learn to quote others, maybe the most important thing you need to improve on.

These are non-negotiable.

Regards,  
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on February 29, 2012, 06:12:53 AM
Okay. I will keep these in mind.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on February 29, 2012, 07:56:47 AM
Anfauglir

.....but the one thing he seemingly will not do, is heal an amputee[1].  So for your point above - "s/he wants them to help themselves" - you will need to explain why that ONLY applies to amputees, and not to any other condition where god allwgedly intervenes.
 1. or anything else that could not happen by chance, or as a result of human intervention

I feel there could be only one answer to this Question - If your Religion doesn't Answer your  Question, its time you changed your religion.

That's legitimate - as far as it goes.  So does your religion answer that question?  If so, perhaps you'd like to share that answer here?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: caveat_imperator on February 29, 2012, 10:17:02 AM
I feel there could be only one answer to this Question - If your Religion doesn't Answer your  Question, its time you changed your religion.

That's legitimate - as far as it goes.  So does your religion answer that question?  If so, perhaps you'd like to share that answer here?

And is orpat prepared to change his religion when he fails to come up with an answer? 8)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on February 29, 2012, 10:24:21 AM

And is orpat prepared to change his religion when he fails to come up with an answer? 8)

Not quite; because that's the nature of apologetics, to come up with complicated justifications to avoid an obvious answer. He has an answer, and that it is clearly illogical is not relevant.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on February 29, 2012, 07:00:28 PM
Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...

HE/SHE WANTS THE AMPUTEES TO HELP THEMSELVES!
 :)
SIMPLE
;)

"Simple"?  Not if what you want is a functional arm or leg. What you seem to be suggesting here is that amputees should just suck it up and make do with a less-than-optimal body for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps I should put your god in a divine headlock, and force it to give amputees the power to regenerate their limbs if so desired.   ;D
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on March 01, 2012, 01:26:20 AM
Let's say God healed every amputee. As soon as one believed in God their ligament would grow back. Faith would be completely destroyed. No one would doubt God's existence.

I'm going to second Lucifer here:  Why is the destruction of faith a bad thing?  Furthermore, why do you consider faith to be more valuable than the liberation of people from a limiting and frequently painful medical condition?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 01, 2012, 07:00:14 AM
That's legitimate - as far as it goes.  So does your religion answer that question?  If so, perhaps you'd like to share that answer here?

Sorry, I don't follow any religion to get an answer. My curiosity for religions is recent.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 01, 2012, 07:42:23 AM
"Simple"?  Not if what you want is a functional arm or leg. What you seem to be suggesting here is that amputees should just suck it up and make do with a less-than-optimal body for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps I should put your god in a divine headlock, and force it to give amputees the power to regenerate their limbs if so desired.   ;D

Actually I also suffer from speech problems and asthma. I fought all my life. My role models used to be people with disabilities who could overcome these and emerge winners.

I didn't mean in the negative sense.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 01, 2012, 08:28:28 AM
That's legitimate - as far as it goes.  So does your religion answer that question?  If so, perhaps you'd like to share that answer here?

Sorry, I don't follow any religion to get an answer. My curiosity for religions is recent.

Having now read your intro, that's fair enough.  But I think you have to accept that your opening salvo in this thread - "HE/SHE WANTS THE AMPUTEES TO HELP THEMSELVES! SIMPLE" certainly sounds like you had a very definite idea about the answer to the WWGHA question!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on March 01, 2012, 10:04:38 AM
That's legitimate - as far as it goes.  So does your religion answer that question?  If so, perhaps you'd like to share that answer here?

Sorry, I don't follow any religion to get an answer. My curiosity for religions is recent.

From your intro post, you said you were now a theists, correct?   Many theists come here and want to disassociate themselves from the idea of "religion" since that word has some well-deserved bad connotations to it. However, it only means that you worship a god.  If you do that, you do follow a religion, even if it's created by yourself.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 02, 2012, 08:18:22 PM
Actually I also suffer from speech problems and asthma. I fought all my life. My role models used to be people with disabilities who could overcome these and emerge winners.

People who overcome their disabilities are a credit to their humanity, not some invisible sky-daddy. Many of them would give "God" all of the glory, but every disabled person I've ever met overcame by their own remarkable human ability.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 03, 2012, 08:14:23 AM
That's legitimate - as far as it goes.  So does your religion answer that question?  If so, perhaps you'd like to share that answer here?

Sorry, I don't follow any religion to get an answer. My curiosity for religions is recent.

Having now read your intro, that's fair enough.  But I think you have to accept that your opening salvo in this thread - "HE/SHE WANTS THE AMPUTEES TO HELP THEMSELVES! SIMPLE" certainly sounds like you had a very definite idea about the answer to the WWGHA question!

I answered without understanding the question properly. My answer is explainable though.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 03, 2012, 08:22:41 AM
That's legitimate - as far as it goes.  So does your religion answer that question?  If so, perhaps you'd like to share that answer here?

Sorry, I don't follow any religion to get an answer. My curiosity for religions is recent.

From your intro post, you said you were now a theists, correct?   Many theists come here and want to disassociate themselves from the idea of "religion" since that word has some well-deserved bad connotations to it. However, it only means that you worship a god.  If you do that, you do follow a religion, even if it's created by yourself.

I am in between theism and atheism.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 03, 2012, 08:28:43 AM
Actually I also suffer from speech problems and asthma. I fought all my life. My role models used to be people with disabilities who could overcome these and emerge winners.

People who overcome their disabilities are a credit to their humanity, not some invisible sky-daddy. Many of them would give "God" all of the glory, but every disabled person I've ever met overcame by their own remarkable human ability.

All right.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 03, 2012, 09:04:34 AM
Mr. X:  Why won't god heal amputees like you?

Mr.Y: Excuse me?

Mr.X: Why doesn't god heal your amputation? I mean your broken legs.

Mr.Y: But I am not an amputee!

Mr. X: Off course you are! Your legs are broken and you can't walk.

Mr.Y: But it doesn't matter to me. I am perfectly fine as I am. I can do many other things which many normal people can't!

Mr. X: But your amputed legs still make you disabled?

Mr.Y: Does it? I don't feel so. I am leading a perfectly fine life, in fact a much better life than most others. So don't worry about me. Worry for yourself.



Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 03, 2012, 09:48:54 AM
And you are STILL missing the point of the question.

Its not important whether any particular amputees feels they want to be healed - though its pretty disgusting to imply that ALL amputees are 100% happy with their lot.

The point is that having a leg grow back doesn't happen, no matter how hard you may pray for it.  Headaches?  Fine!  Cancer?  Fine!  Lost your keys?  Fine!  All those things are alleged to be solved by prayer....but here's the rub: every single one could happen by chance.  Its only where there is no chance of chance that god does nothing.

And so the theist must decide - either "why does their god hate amptutees".....or their god does not exist.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 03, 2012, 10:25:40 AM
I thinl i got the question al right. Thought a lot. Then thought what does this questn imply? Then thought what if asked to a disabled person? Then thought what if that persom was me?

Then wondered how could somebody ask me that question?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 03, 2012, 10:46:45 AM
I didnt say 100 percent of All disabled are happy. Just that they wont be too happy when asked this questn.  Its akin to asking Why god doesnt make black people white?

There could be less discriminatory questions-why GOD dosnt create miracles anymore ? Or other questns like that?

 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on March 03, 2012, 11:06:21 AM
I didnt say 100 percent of All disabled are happy. Just that they wont be too happy when asked this questn.

So?  What's your point?

Quote
Its akin to asking Why god doesnt make black people white?

The difference is that amputation is a disability.  Skin color isn't -- or, at best, it's a disability for societal reasons, not medical ones.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on March 03, 2012, 11:10:20 AM
I didnt say 100 percent of All disabled are happy. Just that they wont be too happy when asked this questn.  Its akin to asking Why god doesnt make black people white?

There could be less discriminatory questions-why GOD dosnt create miracles anymore ? Or other questns like that?

Orpat - atheists, and the author of the book and site, believe God is imaginary.  And this question is a direct challenge to Christians who claim that God actually heals people.  Just do a Google search to see all the claims of miraculous healing from God.  '

This question eliminates the excuses for healing, and forces the Christian to at least recognize that God either chooses not to heal amputees, despite their prayers, or that God does not exist.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on March 03, 2012, 11:11:02 AM

  Many theists come here and want to disassociate themselves from the idea of "religion" since that word has some well-deserved bad connotations to it. However, it only means that you worship a god.  If you do that, you do follow a religion, even if it's created by yourself.

Does theism necessitate the worship of a deity? Is it not possible for one to simply believe that unidentifiable forces or powers exist without feeling the need or compulsion to worship those forces? Would such a person be considered a theist? 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: sun_king on March 03, 2012, 11:11:45 AM
I thinl i got the question al right. Thought a lot. Then thought what does this questn imply? Then thought what if asked to a disabled person? Then thought what if that persom was me?

Then wondered how could somebody ask me that question?

If you are an amputee and you claim to believe in god, then a rational person should ask why god doesn't heal you. As long as there is the claim that god is omnipotent and loves his subjects dearly, the question is valid.

This is a miracle if it happens, being rational, most atheists would accept that god is real if amputees are healed in a consistent, repetitive manner. Just this one miracle would suffice. It is not discriminatory.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Historicity on March 03, 2012, 11:16:59 AM
There could be less discriminatory questions-why GOD dosnt create miracles anymore ? Or other questns like that?

Okay, let me answer that from a book on advertising.  As an experiment an advertising agency put different ads for the same product --seeds for a new breed of strawberries -- in different newspapers in New York.  These were coupons to be mailed in.

The one that said, "GIANT SIZED STRAWBERRIES" got few responses.

The one that said, "PLUM SIZED STRAWBERRIES" got a lot of responses.

"Giant" "jumbo" "economy sized" are vague claims.  People filter them out.  Fuzzy, mushy, pillowy words leave lots of wiggle room.  Tack something onto a noun and you have said something specific and memorable.

There is a principle in rhetoric that if you use the right noun, you don't need an adjective.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on March 03, 2012, 02:10:54 PM
I thinl i got the question al right. Thought a lot. Then thought what does this questn imply? Then thought what if asked to a disabled person? Then thought what if that persom was me?

Then wondered how could somebody ask me that question?

If you are an amputee and you claim to believe in god, then a rational person should ask why god doesn't heal you. As long as there is the claim that god is omnipotent and loves his subjects dearly, the question is valid.

This is a miracle if it happens, being rational, most atheists would accept that god is real if amputees are healed in a consistent, repetitive manner. Just this one miracle would suffice. It is not discriminatory.

The question in my opinion avoids the crux of what is at the heart of the Christian belief system. Ultimately at the heart of Christianity lies the idea that this life, other than determining where or if one will spend eternity, is insignificant and manners very little. The religion views this life's plight as ultimately irrelevant and as something that is infantessimally small on the priority list. So whether or not God heals this or that is insignificant when this mindset is prevailent.

A better question to pose in my view would be to inquire as to why it is that God doesn't remove all hinderances to "saving faith" seeing that He is not willing that any should perish? If ultimately this life is all about determining eternity, then why won't God give everyone an equal and a good chance of having a positive eternity?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: sun_king on March 03, 2012, 02:22:59 PM
A better question to pose in my view would be to inquire as to why it is that God doesn't remove all hinderances to "saving faith" seeing that He is not willing that any should perish? If ultimately this life is all about determining eternity, then why won't God give everyone an equal and a good chance of having a positive eternity?

Equal and good chance??? Now that's what I would call an "Intelligent Design".
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: rickymooston on March 03, 2012, 03:08:32 PM
So?  What's your point?

His totally valid point is, a large number of "disabled" people happily believe in God.

His point is perfectly valid.

And a significant number of them adjust rather well to their disability, functioning perfectly well in life.

I've met several disabled Christians for example. Some of them were pretty inspirational people and in fact, the force of their personality was an emotional argument towards belief.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on March 03, 2012, 03:18:02 PM
So?  What's your point?

His totally valid point is, a large number of "disabled" people happily believe in God.

His point is perfectly valid.

And a significant number of them adjust rather well to their disability, functioning perfectly well in life.

I've met several disabled Christians for example. Some of them were pretty inspirational people and in fact, the force of their personality was an emotional argument towards belief.

It may be valid, but how does it address the real question?  If God heals at all, why do the "disabled" have to just be happy about it, instead of getting healed, like all of the other miraculous claims of healing?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: rickymooston on March 03, 2012, 03:22:14 PM
It may be valid, but how does it address the real question?  If God heals at all, why do the "disabled" have to just be happy about it, instead of getting healed, like all of the other miraculous claims of healing?

Perhaps he doesn't heal.  :o

It isn't necessary to believe God heals to believe in God either. Certainly not in the sense one suggests here.

Now it may be valid to ask, did Jesus heal amputees.  :o We are told that he replaced an ear.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: sun_king on March 03, 2012, 03:22:57 PM

His totally valid point is, a large number of "disabled" people happily believe in God.
His point is perfectly valid.


Are they questioning why the good lord chose to give them a life of agony? Do they ask why they are in a chair while the other guy is out hiking?

Adjusting to their disability is a bit different from functioning perfectly well. Being happy is yet again a choice, can we be sure if they wouldn't be happier if they had all their limbs intact?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on March 03, 2012, 03:26:20 PM
It may be valid, but how does it address the real question?  If God heals at all, why do the "disabled" have to just be happy about it, instead of getting healed, like all of the other miraculous claims of healing?

Perhaps he doesn't heal.  :o

It isn't necessary to believe God heals to believe in God either. Certainly not in the sense one suggests here.

Now it may be valid to ask, did Jesus heal amputees.  :o We are told that he replaced an ear.

Agreed, but it is a powerful strike against the standard model of what God is, and what God is supposed to be capable of.  If I had to choose to be impressed by any of his powers, it would be that one where he killed all humans in a flood, except Noah and his family.  If that happened today, I might consider him as being real.   ;D
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on March 03, 2012, 06:43:25 PM
Perhaps he doesn't heal.  :o

Then the Bible does not accurately describe a deity.  Which is the entire. point. of. the. question.

It's not a large point.  It doesn't trash theism in general, or even all models of Christianity.  But it does mean that the Bible can't be trusted.  QED.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on March 04, 2012, 12:31:06 AM
Now it may be valid to ask, did Jesus heal amputees.  :o We are told that he replaced an ear.

If I recall the story correctly, it was within seconds of the radical auriculectomy and the blood on the soldier's sword was probably still wet.    Probably just picked up the severed ear, stuck it back in place and did a couple of magic sutures -- More like field surgery than regenerating a missing part.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on March 04, 2012, 12:44:30 AM
Now it may be valid to ask, did Jesus heal amputees.  :o We are told that he replaced an ear.

If I recall the story correctly, it was within seconds of the radical auriculectomy and the blood on the soldier's sword was probably still wet.    Probably just picked up the severed ear, stuck it back in place and did a couple of magic sutures -- More like field surgery than regenerating a missing part.

Wait, that makes it entirely possible?   &)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on March 04, 2012, 12:46:15 AM
If I recall the story correctly, it was within seconds of the radical auriculectomy and the blood on the soldier's sword was probably still wet.    Probably just picked up the severed ear, stuck it back in place and did a couple of magic sutures -- More like field surgery than regenerating a missing part.

Wait, that makes it entirely possible?   &)

Well, all except the "magic sutures" part...  ;D
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 10:04:54 AM
Apart from the part of a bit of a discrimination attached with this question, I find it  valid.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 10:11:18 AM
I didnt say 100 percent of All disabled are happy. Just that they wont be too happy when asked this questn.

So?  What's your point?





Point being a disabled person mightn't consider self as disabled. But asking questions like this might make one feel like one.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 10:16:04 AM

The difference is that amputation is a disability.  Skin color isn't -- or, at best, it's a disability for societal reasons, not medical ones.


It was an example to explain the likeness between the two. The similarity lies with both questions differentiating between humans.


Apart from this, i find the question valid.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 10:22:56 AM
Why GOD does not heal amputees?

This question isn't vague. It is clear and result oriented. Hence this question is clearly valid.

What I find interesting with this question is this question is situation based. This question will provide a good result if only it is asked at the right time to the right man.


In that case, there could be questions much better than this one.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 10:29:18 AM
I thinl i got the question al right. Thought a lot. Then thought what does this questn imply? Then thought what if asked to a disabled person? Then thought what if that persom was me?

Then wondered how could somebody ask me that question?

If you are an amputee and you claim to believe in god, then a rational person should ask why god doesn't heal you. As long as there is the claim that god is omnipotent and loves his subjects dearly, the question is valid.

This is a miracle if it happens, being rational, most atheists would accept that god is real if amputees are healed in a consistent, repetitive manner. Just this one miracle would suffice. It is not discriminatory.


I would request you to put yourself in the "shoes" of that disabled person first, think a lot and reply again
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 10:37:46 AM
There could be less discriminatory questions-why GOD dosnt create miracles anymore ? Or other questns like that?

Okay, let me answer that from a book on advertising.  As an experiment an advertising agency put different ads for the same product --seeds for a new breed of strawberries -- in different newspapers in New York.  These were coupons to be mailed in.

The one that said, "GIANT SIZED STRAWBERRIES" got few responses.

The one that said, "PLUM SIZED STRAWBERRIES" got a lot of responses.

"Giant" "jumbo" "economy sized" are vague claims.  People filter them out.  Fuzzy, mushy, pillowy words leave lots of wiggle room.  Tack something onto a noun and you have said something specific and memorable.

There is a principle in rhetoric that if you use the right noun, you don't need an adjective.


I get what you are pointing at. But an attractive noun isn't what matters the most.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 10:39:16 AM
Would have loved to explain some more. Unfortunately the wheels of time doesn't seem to have a brake.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: JeffPT on March 04, 2012, 11:12:52 AM
I would request you to put yourself in the "shoes" of that disabled person first, think a lot and reply again

Stop adding your emotions into it orpat and just think about it.  This question isn't about what 'healing' means; its about possible outcomes.  It has nothing to do with who is assessing this problem.  Whether your a human being with all your limbs or not, if you REALLY believe that there is a super powerful being in the universe who loves you and has the power to put a brand new arm back on your body with the snap of his fingers, why does that never, ever happen? 

Could it be that there is no such super powerful being? 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 04, 2012, 02:47:36 PM
Hi JeffPT, my response was not emotional. Just an analysis of the question.

Anyway, if i have to answer this question, I will just say if your god says but doesnt heal amputees, its time to change your god.
For instance suppose i believe  Nature is God or Earth is God. Then this question isnt effective in questioning God's existence.
 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on March 04, 2012, 04:43:35 PM
Hi JeffPT, my response was not emotional. Just an analysis of the question.

Anyway, if i have to answer this question, I will just say if your god says but doesnt heal amputees, its time to change your god.
For instance suppose i believe  Nature is God or Earth is God. Then this question isnt effective in questioning God's existence.

Actually, this question is deliberately aimed at YHWH, the god of the OT and NT.  When one drops their god delusion, amputees become, well, amputees.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: JeffPT on March 04, 2012, 10:34:49 PM
Hi JeffPT, my response was not emotional. Just an analysis of the question.

I'm sorry, but the impression you leave when you basically say 'walk a mile in the shoes (or shoe if you like morbid puns) of an amputee and ask again', is nothing more than an emotional appeal.  You want us to step inside their mind and see if they really feel 'healed', but that is not what we're asking at all.  The question we are asking you is a factual based question.  Fact: no amputees ever get their lost limb back.  How does that fact mesh with the notion that God loves all of us and that he has the power to give every single amputees lost limb back? 

Please answer this next question honestly... Is it possible that no human being ever regained a lost limb because there really is no god out there to put it back on?  Is that an answer that explains in every detail why people do not regain lost limbs?   

Anyway, if i have to answer this question, I will just say if your god says but doesnt heal amputees, its time to change your god.

Be careful here.  In the bible, it says (in several places) that God will give you what you want if you ask for it.  Are you willing to change your God when you realize you really don't get everything you ask for? 

For instance suppose i believe  Nature is God or Earth is God. Then this question isnt effective in questioning God's existence.

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but you believe in the God of the bible, do you not?  If so, then you don't need to create a 'for instance'.  You've got one that works perfectly in the bible.  For instance, John 14:14.  "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."  When it becomes glaringly clear that God doesn't actually do that, then (your words here) it's time to change your god.  I assume asking for a lost limb back qualifies under the category of 'anything', doesn't it? 

 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 05, 2012, 05:34:48 AM
Actually, this question is deliberately aimed at YHWH, the god of the OT and NT.  When one drops their god delusion, amputees become, well, amputees.

Okay, so may I conclude that the question is not actually "Why GOD does not heal amputees?"

But rather "Why does YHWH, the god of the OT and NT not heal Christian amputees?"

If that is so,I think  the former question needs to be changed to clear confusions.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 05, 2012, 05:42:25 AM
Actually, this question is deliberately aimed at YHWH, the god of the OT and NT.  When one drops their god delusion, amputees become, well, amputees.

Okay, so may I conclude that the question is not actually "Why GOD does not heal amputees?"

But rather "Why does YHWH, the god of the OT and NT not heal Christian amputees?"

If that is so,I think  the former question needs to be changed to clear confusions.
I thought the same, but doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily, does it? And since there aren't that many Deists around, it doesn't affect many.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 05, 2012, 06:19:39 AM
I'm sorry, but the impression you leave when you basically say 'walk a mile in the shoes (or shoe if you like morbid puns) of an amputee and ask again', is nothing more than an emotional appeal.  You want us to step inside their mind and see if they really feel 'healed', but that is not what we're asking at all.  The question we are asking you is a factual based question.  Fact: no amputees ever get their lost limb back.  How does that fact mesh with the notion that God loves all of us and that he has the power to give every single amputees lost limb back? 

Please answer this next question honestly... Is it possible that no human being ever regained a lost limb because there really is no god out there to put it back on?  Is that an answer that explains in every detail why people do not regain lost limbs?   

Anyway, if i have to answer this question, I will just say if your god says but doesnt heal amputees, its time to change your god.

Be careful here.  In the bible, it says (in several places) that God will give you what you want if you ask for it.  Are you willing to change your God when you realize you really don't get everything you ask for? 


Okay, maybe I went a bit overboard with "wearing shoes".

Now that I have begun to realise that this question is directed at only the Christian belief of God , I guess I should not be answering this question. Should I?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 05, 2012, 06:25:13 AM
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but you believe in the God of the bible, do you not? 

Unfortunately not.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 05, 2012, 06:29:23 AM
I thought the same, but doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily, does it?

Indeed.

Quote

And since there aren't that many Deists around, it doesn't affect many.

Does it not?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 05, 2012, 07:03:08 AM
My wit said to me that all this GOD thing is shit. I never believed or expected myself to believe before...

But the issue is that now i am confronted with a possibility that it might not be imaginary. If you are thinking that this might eb the ramblings of an old man about to die, then I am 22 yrs old only.

There is always a possibility, but certainly I would say that the probability is very, very small. Have you ever heard of the Dawkins Scale? On a scale of 1 to 7, 1 is an absolute theist who "knows" that there is a God; 7 is an absolute atheist who "knows" that there is no God. Of course, the word "know" here really just means strongly believe. I find myself between a 6 and 7; I believe that there most probably is no God and live my life accordingly.

Let me ask you a question. Even if some transcendent being does exist somewhere beyond our comprehension and perception, why invest belief in a being who has nothing whatsoever to do with its creation? Everywhere you look in the universe, you see randomness with little pockets of order, very sloppy "design" such as the laryngeal nerve that takes a huge detour down below the lungs before finally making its way up to the larynx (very inefficient if it were done by an intelligent designer), and people getting sick, suffering, and dying. There certainly does not seem to be much "caring" for those people, nor for starving children and oppressed people throughout the world. If there is such a transcendent being somewhere, then it "blipped" the universe into existence and then abandoned it. To me, that is not worth the effort to "have faith" in.

I was once where you are now, so I understand completely what you're going through. I would suggest reading some Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins. On the philosophical side, I would suggest Christopher Hitchens. I think you will find that the circumstantial evidence that there is no God is by far much stronger than the philosophical "evidence" that theists propose and claim proves the existence of God.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 05, 2012, 07:56:57 AM
Okay, maybe I went a bit overboard with "wearing shoes".

Now that I have begun to realise that this question is directed at only the Christian belief of God , I guess I should not be answering this question. Should I?

I think the question is relevant to any theistic view that asserts that God cares and is actively involved in the lives of human beings. I think the question can be paraphrased as follows and still have just as much meaning: "Why does God not give a damn?" That the evidence leads to the conclusion that a God who actually gives a damn about human beings is imaginary makes it relevant to almost any theistic view.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: sterlingwarlock on March 05, 2012, 09:04:55 AM
The answer is simple, God created the earth and the universe but he is not present. Lucifer was cast from heaven to run the earth. He is a reptilian angel. He was cast here because he was rebellious. I have seen signals from Lucifer many times..here is my website. (read the my story page). Please keep in mind that i could care less if you think it's a lie.

www.thesterlingwarlock.20m.com


Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 05, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
I'm a lizard? Holy shit, that's awesome!
EDIT: Wait, if I run the Earth, does that mean you have to do what I say? After all, your god put me in charge.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: HAL on March 05, 2012, 09:16:32 AM
The answer is simple, God created the earth and the universe but he is not present. Lucifer was cast from heaven to run the earth. He is a reptilian angel. He was cast here because he was rebellious. I have seen signals from Lucifer many times..here is my website. (read the my story page). Please keep in mind that i could care less if you think it's a lie.


Going green on your first post? I would have figured you for red but,

We're not here to examine your website. If you have evidence of these things post it here so the members can discuss the evidence for your claims. If you can't take the time to do this you have come to the wrong forum.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 05, 2012, 09:22:51 AM
It was an example to explain the likeness between the two. The similarity lies with both questions differentiating between humans.

Exactly as the god of the Bible does!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 05, 2012, 09:26:47 AM
The answer is simple, God created the earth and the universe but he is not present. Lucifer was cast from heaven to run the earth. He is a reptilian angel. He was cast here because he was rebellious. I have seen signals from Lucifer many times..here is my website. (read the my story page). Please keep in mind that i could care less if you think it's a lie.

www.thesterlingwarlock.20m.com


Sterling, bold green text on this forum is reserved for moderator comment, as detailed in the rules & regs you agreed to when you signed up.....

Like Hal says, if you want to give examples of how you have seen signals from Lucifer, why not just give your best one here for us to discuss?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on March 05, 2012, 06:01:54 PM
The answer is simple, God created the earth and the universe but he is not present. Lucifer was cast from heaven to run the earth. He is a reptilian angel. He was cast here because he was rebellious. I have seen signals from Lucifer many times..here is my website. (read the my story page). Please keep in mind that i could care less if you think it's a lie.


That does sound pretty simple.  It also sounds pretty mythological.  Like, fiction.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 05, 2012, 06:44:59 PM
The answer is simple, God created the earth and the universe but he is not present. Lucifer was cast from heaven to run the earth. He is a reptilian angel. He was cast here because he was rebellious. I have seen signals from Lucifer many times..here is my website. (read the my story page). Please keep in mind that i could care less if you think it's a lie.


That does sound pretty simple.  It also sounds pretty mythological.  Like, fiction.

Perhaps God went home to planet "Nibiru." ;)

(If you're curious, google Zecharia Stitchin)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: sterlingwarlock on March 05, 2012, 07:51:22 PM
Lucifer does not want to be proven to the public, but those who have had experiences with him know the truth.

MODERATOR EDIT:  Green font color removed.  Sterlingwarlock, green text (as I'm using here) is reserved for moderator use at WWGHA to indicate that a moderator is speaking as a moderator.  If you choose to use color for emphasis, please use a color other than green.  Thank you.  {pianodwarf}
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Brakeman on March 05, 2012, 08:54:58 PM
Lucifer does not want to be proven to the public, but those who have had experiences with him know the truth.

We're not talking to Lucifer, we're talking to one of those who have had experiences with him and knows the truth. So happily, you can tell us all about it..
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 06, 2012, 04:58:46 AM
I think the question is relevant to any theistic view that asserts that God cares and is actively involved in the lives of human beings. I think the question can be paraphrased as follows and still have just as much meaning: "Why does God not give a damn?" That the evidence leads to the conclusion that a God who actually gives a damn about human beings is imaginary makes it relevant to almost any theistic view.


Well, that is an assumption at best. There are lots of religions in this world with different concepts of God apart from individualistic ones.

Besides, as the moderator has himself stated that this question is specifically directed towards believers of Yahweh, the God of OT and NT, I don't think you should counter this, should you?

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 08:48:10 AM
I thought the same, but doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily, does it?

Indeed.

Quote

And since there aren't that many Deists around, it doesn't affect many.

Does it not?

No. Seriously, what number of American even know the term "Deist" much less are one?   And given that Deists, by definition, do not believe in an interventionist God, they aren't any sort of threat to personal liberty or life and limb, unlike gnostic Theists.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 09:00:18 AM
The answer is simple, God created the earth and the universe but he is not present. Lucifer was cast from heaven to run the earth. He is a reptilian angel. He was cast here because he was rebellious. I have seen signals from Lucifer many times..here is my website. (read the my story page). Please keep in mind that i could care less if you think it's a lie.

www.thesterlingwarlock.20m.com


People have "personal experience" with fictitious beings all the time. The fictitious being always seems to be one out of the culture they are part of. You are part of a Christian culture and have experience with an entity, that seems conspicuously "hidden." Why should we treat you any different than a gibbering tribal primitive who says they have experience with their deity's Nemesis, Agubagu?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on March 06, 2012, 10:18:46 AM
Lucifer does not want to be proven to the public, but those who have had experiences with him know the truth.

one more special snowflake who wants to be "oooohed and ahhhhed" for being so important to Lucifer.   It's always sad when adults must rely on making things up so they can feel important.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 10:21:47 AM
one more special snowflake who wants to be "oooohed and ahhhhed" for being so important to Lucifer.   It's always sad when adults must rely on making things up so they can feel important.

Come on, velkyn, you've all had experiences with Me. Everyone knows atheists worship Me. His experience was just more "personal", if you know what I mean. ;)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 10:35:19 AM
Lucifer does not want to be proven to the public, but those who have had experiences with him know the truth.

one more special snowflake who wants to be "oooohed and ahhhhed" for being so important to Lucifer.   It's always sad when adults must rely on making things up so they can feel important.

One of the major reasons for religosity that isn't brought up nearly enough. People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise; but rather want to think they have a special substance(a soul) that is the prize of an epic battle between cosmic entities.



 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on March 06, 2012, 01:06:05 PM
The answer is simple, God created the earth and the universe but he is not present. Lucifer was cast from heaven to run the earth. He is a reptilian angel. He was cast here because he was rebellious. I have seen signals from Lucifer many times..here is my website. (read the my story page). Please keep in mind that i could care less if you think it's a lie.

www.thesterlingwarlock.20m.com


David Icke many sue you for copyright infringment.........
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: DR HANS SCHWANTZ on March 06, 2012, 03:23:15 PM
Quoted from Hatter23: "One of the major reasons for religosity that isn't brought up nearly enough. People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise; but rather want to think they have a special substance(a soul) that is the prize of an epic battle between cosmic entities."

Can we assume that the above statement specifically the sentence "People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise," applies also to you?

And if you answer yes to my former question, then how do you feel and are handling your inevitable demise to come?

What if naturalism or science somehow offered you eternal life on this planet as we know it now, would you take it?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on March 06, 2012, 03:35:09 PM
Not to speak for Hatter or anyone else, but I don’t think anyone “likes” the fact that we will die or that it’s very likely that memory of us will not last very long.  However, that should not keep one from living one’s live well, learn well and doing what one can to improve this world.  Theists keep pinning their delusions on being rewarded by some magical being after they are dead.  Nothing supports this myth, as nothing supports your feeling that a “creator exists somewhere”.  You want to feel like you have some meaning, that this big important creator cares about you, which in turn makes you feel big and important.  That seems rather immature to me, the needs of someone who needs external validation. 

If I were offered eternal life on this planet would I take it?  Yep, sure. And I’d spend that life doing exactly as I am doing now, living live well and trying to improve the planet, trying to understand everything (and not whining that it’s okay not to understand as an excuse) and then hopefully the solar system, the local stars, the galaxy and on and on. But since I doubt that will happen, I am doing that anyway. I don’t fear death for myself.  I fear the loss I will feel when those I love die.  I do fear pain, if that’s involved, but death? No, it’s just part of life. I was non-existing before I was born and I will be non-existing afterwards.  I don’t need a primitive delusion, no matter how kitted out in new age nonsense or some new interpretation of some moldy “holy book” to make things feel better.   
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 03:40:08 PM

Can we assume that the above statement specifically the sentence "People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise," applies also to you?

And if you answer yes to my former question, then how do you feel and are handling your inevitable demise to come?

What if naturalism or science somehow offered you eternal life on this planet as we know it now, would you take it?

I'll bite, even thought I have some very big suspicions as to where this is going..

Fine, I don't like it, but at least I have the honesty to acknowlege it is a fact. Yup, sad but true, like the fact there is no Santa Claus. How do you acknowledge the fact you can't fly without a machine? I assume you would prefer to have the ability to fly around like Superman, but you can't. How do you deal with it?

Sure I would take it, much as how science offers me anti-biotics and clean drinking water. I take those advantages, so why wouldn't I take this one?

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 03:41:03 PM
Death is just the end of life. Without that, life would become meaningless. And yes, I know that life gives life meaning, but that meaning can only exist if life is on a timer. How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end? Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 03:44:53 PM
Death is just the end of life. Without that, life would become meaningless. And yes, I know that life gives life meaning, but that meaning can only exist if life is on a timer. How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end? You will get bored, eventually.
I disagree that death gives life meaning. It is simply the end of life. Death gives life meaning like vacuum gives molecules meaning.

Honestly, I'm tired of that canard being said by atheists.



Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 03:46:20 PM
I disagree that death gives life meaning. It is simply the end of life. Death gives life meaning like vacuum gives molecules meaning.

Honestly, I'm tired of that canard being said by atheists.

I also disagree with that statement, which is why I didn't make it. I said that you can't give meaning to life without death, but also that only life (living beings) can give life (their own lives) meaning.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 06, 2012, 03:47:28 PM
I said that you can't give meaning to life without death,

I say bollocks to that.  Why not?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 03:48:42 PM
I say bollocks to that.  Why not?

Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 03:52:12 PM
I disagree that death gives life meaning. It is simply the end of life. Death gives life meaning like vacuum gives molecules meaning.

Honestly, I'm tired of that canard being said by atheists.

I also disagree with that statement, which is why I didn't make it. I said that you can't give meaning to life without death, but also that only life (living beings) can give life (their own lives) meaning.

That makes no sense. If you can't give meaning to life without Death....that is the same thing as Death gives life meaning.



Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 03:54:54 PM
That makes no sense. If you can't give meaning to life without Death....that is the same thing as Death gives life meaning.

No, it is not. You can't have juice without water; does that mean that water is juice?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 06, 2012, 03:55:59 PM
No, it is not. You can't have juice without water; does that mean that water is juice?

how does that analogy make any sense?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 06, 2012, 03:56:59 PM
No, it is not. You can't have juice without water; does that mean that water is juice?

juice is like, 90% water, depending what kind of juice we're talking about.

Is life 90% death?

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 03:58:08 PM
how does that analogy make any sense?

Hatter23 stated that because the absence of death makes life meaningless, then death gives life meaning. It does not. Death is an essential component for life forms to be able to give their own lives meaning, but it does not and cannot give meaning to life.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 06, 2012, 04:02:55 PM
you've just repeated yourself.  For you to say how it makes sense would require you to explain something.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 04:04:44 PM
juice is like, 90% water, depending what kind of juice we're talking about.

Is life 90% death?

>_>
Seriously?

you've just repeated yourself.  For you to say how it makes sense would require you to explain something.

I did explain it. In the very first post[1] I made regarding that issue. Then I quoted myself in response to your question. And now I will do it again.
Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.
 1. Although I had to edit it (in a futile attempt to avoid raising that question).
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on March 06, 2012, 04:24:01 PM
Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Savage) From the Legion of Doom (http://youtube.com/watch?v=uBrvW9FbfDw)

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on March 06, 2012, 04:31:51 PM
Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Savage) From the Legion of Doom (http://youtube.com/watch?v=uBrvW9FbfDw)

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.

Jay, I know you didn't just drop a V-Savage reference. You're gonna have me watching Justice League episodes instead of calling clients.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 06, 2012, 04:58:49 PM
Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Savage) From the Legion of Doom (http://youtube.com/watch?v=uBrvW9FbfDw)

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.

Precisely why the idea of eternal life does not appeal to me at all. Imagine it, having lived millions of years, done everything and seen everything, and yet still having a million more years to live. And that not even being a drop in the bucket!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on March 06, 2012, 05:09:09 PM
Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Savage) From the Legion of Doom (http://youtube.com/watch?v=uBrvW9FbfDw)

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.

Precisely why the idea of eternal life does not appeal to me at all. Imagine it, having lived millions of years, done everything and seen everything, and yet still having a million more years to live. And that not even being a drop in the bucket!

At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 05:10:24 PM
At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?

It would depend on the individual. In addition to that, since our lifespans are limited, I don't think anyone can answer that question.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on March 06, 2012, 05:41:44 PM
At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?

It would depend on the individual. In addition to that, since our lifespans are limited, I don't think anyone can answer that question.

I know this thought is a bit off topic, but these most recent posts have it on my mind. I wonder why we bother giving care and treatment to someone that has purposely attempted suicide. If we have the right to control our lives, does that right not also extent to being able to choose to end our lives. And once we've made the decision to end it, won't it be sort of a violation of our rights to resessitate (sp?) someone that wishes to be dead?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: HAL on March 06, 2012, 05:42:27 PM
How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end? Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.

Hey, let me give it a shot. If I eventually achieve everything then I can always kill myself off at that point.  :)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 05:43:47 PM
Hey, let me give it a shot. If I eventually achieve everything then I can always kill myself off at that point.  :)

That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Seppuku on March 06, 2012, 05:48:24 PM
Quoted from Hatter23: "One of the major reasons for religosity that isn't brought up nearly enough. People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise; but rather want to think they have a special substance(a soul) that is the prize of an epic battle between cosmic entities."

Can we assume that the above statement specifically the sentence "People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise," applies also to you?

And if you answer yes to my former question, then how do you feel and are handling your inevitable demise to come?

What if naturalism or science somehow offered you eternal life on this planet as we know it now, would you take it?

Death is something people have difficulty to deal with, it's a scary thing, ceasing to exist and in all honesty, I personally think life is too short and get old too soon. I'm sure this fear is what makes people reluctant to come to believe that there is no life after death, but it will be the same as before you existed. If science did offer me eternal life, I may take it, not to last for all eternity, but to extend my life until I deem my life worth ending, assuming nothing kills me before that.

I'm not a wishful thinker, I do have wishes and I have my hopes, but I don't let them distort how I view reality. Dying is scary, even for me but to me it's also a fact of life.

You also talked earlier about not 'knowing' everything, in context to a 'possible' causer of our existence. The very important thing is, yes, we do not know. There's a GREAT deal we do not know about the universe, so I don't think there's room to start making assumptions. Science requires something that can be tested over and over and over before it can be considered a theory in scientific terms and remains to go on testing, it sticks to what can be known and tested. Life after death, deities, the great gig in the sky, these are all ideas that can calm our fears if we believe them, but what basis is there for believing them to be true? Hope? Wishful thinking? Faith? These ideas are just filling gaps to questions we do not know answers to (or in many cases, answers to questions that have been answered but refuse to acknowledge). I would very happily say 'I do not know' to something I do not know.

I do not have to know, nor is it important. How I came to existence isn't going to effect how I lead my life, nor will what'll happen after I die. People will often use damnation to hell as a means of pushing people into finding a means of protecting an afterlife, but there's so many versions of hells across a vast number of religions, cultures and societies and some version of eternal life in a paradise that's really not a paradise, particularly if you care about your fellow man.  Heck there's some views on religion that suggest that I'm going to find eternal bliss and I could compromise that by deceiving myself. So you can see why I don't delve into the unknown, because...well...it's unknown and there's no security measures, nothing you can confirm so I think the important thing is to lead a good and full life.

Quote
At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?


You may feel you have exhausted all you can do in life and have grown tired of existing. Some view immortality as a curse rather than a blessing. Sure we fear death, but who knows, eternal life may not be worth spending it for an eternity.

Quote
That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.

Depends on the version of immortality. Vampires are immortal, but you can kill them, it just means you can't be defeated by mortal weaknesses - aging and dying of old age for example, but doesn't necessarily mean you're invincible too. A life after death immortality, well I would like to have the luxury of being able to cease my existence. Eternal life could end in torture...would kind of be ironic if you were in heaven.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: HAL on March 06, 2012, 05:54:18 PM
That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.

Sure I can die. Immortality doesn't mean you can't die, it just means that you won't die because of old age, maybe even that you can't get infected or have cancer or other diseases. It means that you have the ability to live forever - not that you will for sure. I could be killed, one way would be to cut off my head.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 05:55:33 PM
Depends on the version of immortality.
<snip>

Sure I can die.
<snip>

I was assuming we were using the literal meaning of immortality (invincibility and agelessness). Otherwise it would make no sense to speak of life without death.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 06, 2012, 06:00:14 PM
I know this thought is a bit off topic, but these most recent posts have it on my mind. I wonder why we bother giving care and treatment to someone that has purposely attempted suicide. If we have the right to control our lives, does that right not also extent to being able to choose to end our lives. And once we've made the decision to end it, won't it be sort of a violation of our rights to resessitate (sp?) someone that wishes to be dead?

The instinct for self-preservation can only[1] be "overridden", so to speak, if the person is greatly depressed. It is within our nature to support those in our "tribe", and so we resuscitate them to try to help them. At least that's my interpretation of it.
 1. Hyperbole. I'm referring to the only reason I believe relevant to the question.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 08:14:53 PM
you've just repeated yourself.  For you to say how it makes sense would require you to explain something.

I second this motion.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 08:17:14 PM
Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Savage) From the Legion of Doom (http://youtube.com/watch?v=uBrvW9FbfDw)

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.

Precisely why the idea of eternal life does not appeal to me at all. Imagine it, having lived millions of years, done everything and seen everything, and yet still having a million more years to live. And that not even being a drop in the bucket!

Actually some have put forward that the human brain only has room for about 500 years of experiences before the memory would "overwrite" itself. If this is true, then boredom of that type would not be possible.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Jake on March 06, 2012, 08:28:53 PM
That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.

Sure I can die. Immortality doesn't mean you can't die, it just means that you won't die because of old age, maybe even that you can't get infected or have cancer or other diseases. It means that you have the ability to live forever - not that you will for sure. I could be killed, one way would be to cut off my head.


HAL, you never told me you were an immortal.    We must now do battle with swords on top of something fairly tall, or in a shopping mall parking lot in the dead of night.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE, HAL!     THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnJt9p-sHho)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 06, 2012, 08:29:31 PM
how does that analogy make any sense?

Hatter23 stated that because the absence of death makes life meaningless, then death gives life meaning. It does not. Death is an essential component for life forms to be able to give their own lives meaning, but it does not and cannot give meaning to life.

No you stated:

Quote

Death is just the end of life. Without that, life would become meaningless. And yes, I know that life gives life meaning, but that meaning can only exist if life is on a timer. How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end?


And it stated:

Quote

I disagree that death gives life meaning.


And you stated you aren't stating death gives life meaning. I cannot parse the sentence:

Without (death), life would become meaningless.

Into anything different than the sentence 'death gives life meaning.' Neither can screwtape. Nothing you have said has any weight to the argument these two sentences mean something completely different.

You are a frustrating person to disagree with, and it isn't because you put forth air tight arguments either.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 06, 2012, 11:33:30 PM

Actually some have put forward that the human brain only has room for about 500 years of experiences before the memory would "overwrite" itself. If this is true, then boredom of that type would not be possible.

Interesting. Makes sense, though. Just as a physical hard drive eventually runs out of space, a human brain would also eventually become "full" of chemically stored memories.

Of course, there is the variety of Christian who sees life after death as an existence as some sort of disembodied (and brainless? ;) ) spirit.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 07, 2012, 03:47:15 AM
<snip>
Nothing you have said has any weight to the argument these two sentences mean something completely different.

I also said this:
No, it is not. You can't have juice without water; does that mean that water is juice?
As an attempt to explain why the two statements I snipped above are not the same. I also edited my post shortly before you replied to it (but after you quoted it) and added this:
Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.
Then I restated it twice. This is the third time.

You are a frustrating person to disagree with, and it isn't because you put forth air tight arguments either.

Tell me why then. Is it because I actually try to defend my position instead of accepting whatever you say unquestioningly; especially when you're misunderstanding my position? You know, like any rational person should? That seems to be what most people say when I ask them to explain that statement.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 07, 2012, 04:05:35 AM
Regarding death, and life, and meaning......I understand what Lucifer means.  But I can't seem to put it into words......I'll keep trying.   :o


Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

I'm not sure you would....at least assuming a finite universe.  Now THAT would be terrible......living on past the end of the universe for all eternity in a cold, dark, lonely void.  No wonder Yahweh decided to create stuff.....and no wonder he was already quite insane when he did it.......but I digress.

I've never been an oil rig worker.  I've never been a fighter pilot.  I've never run with the bulls.  I've never fished in the sea.  I've never played lacrosse.  More to the point, I've never had the time to train to do all those things, to get good at them.

I've not watched "House", or "Battlestar Galactica", or past season 4 of "Buffy", or "Twin Peaks".  I've never read Oman's "Art of War in the Middle Ages", or Pratchett's "Snuff", or Dawkins latest, or "God Collar" (all sitting on my shelves waiting for the time).  I've never played Notre Dame, or La Citta, or Ming Dynasty, or Strozzi, or Albion, or Hamburgum - again, all sitting on my shelves in the shrink wrap.  And I have dozens of "Starship Troopers" figures sitting waiting to be painted and gamed with, and ECW regiments, and High Elves, and Zombie Stormtroopers.

And those are just the jobs, and the books, and the TV shows, and the toys, that I know NOW I want to experience.  I can't keep up with what there is NOW, let alone all the stuff that's going to appear over the rest of my finite lifetime.  I know full well I will die never having played enough Ankh-Morpork, or shot enough Warrior Bugs, or read everything I want to read.

So a big resounding NO.....I do NOT believe you'd ever do everything there is to be done, at least not as much as you'd like - at least not while there are more things being produced, more people around to do things with.  So being immortal would be quite fine with me, and I know I'd never get bored.....so long as there is other stuff to do.

Which brings me back to where I started.  Yahweh (or whoever) created us to stave off boredom and give him some entertainment and diversion to pass the countless millennia.  We are Soap Opera for the gods.....and once you start to think of things like that, then everything makes sense......bad things happening to good people, natural disasters, bread falling butterside down......we're all just one huge great episode of Seinfeld/Desperate Housewives/Friends/Eastenders (delete as appropriate).
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 07, 2012, 04:11:56 AM
So a big resounding NO.....I do NOT believe you'd ever do everything there is to be done <snip> at least not while there are more things being produced, more people around to do things with.

Eventually everything would be wiped out; either because the universe got too cold or because it began to contract again(?). But everyone and everything would end. Except you. Long before then, however, you'd get bored with people.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 07, 2012, 04:21:45 AM
But everyone and everything would end. Except you. Long before then, however, you'd get bored with people.

If it all ended, then yes - I'd like it to stop.  But bored with people?  I don't know.....is everyone else immortal?  If not, then like books and movies, there are always new ones to meet.....not to mention aliens and the fun when the apes take over!

Maybe if everyone was immortal, and you kept seeing the same people all the time.... (hell is other people?).....but even then, with 6 billion and counting already itd take a whole lotta time.

But I'll go with the caveat then - I wouldn't get bored with immortality while there are new humans coming on the scene and producing new stuff for me to see/read/eat/experience carnal delight with.  Heck, don't even need that much new stuff - I could play X-Com over and over again, and I've already read all my Pratchett and King books a dozen times.....I could do the same things many times without a problem, and I'm sure I'll do the same thing with the works of T'kop%(sound of rattle) in the year 12,529.....

Make us both immortal, and in 10 billion years we'll see who was right!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 07, 2012, 04:27:28 AM
Obviously we're assuming that only you (the individual) would become immortal. Regardless, there's only so many things that you can do.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 07, 2012, 04:41:24 AM
No. Seriously, what number of American even know the term "Deist" much less are one? And given that Deists, by definition, do not believe in an interventionist God, they aren't any sort of threat to personal liberty or life and limb, unlike gnostic Theists.

Okay
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 07, 2012, 05:09:16 AM
How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end? Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.

Hey, let me give it a shot. If I eventually achieve everything then I can always kill myself off at that point.  :)

After I have had all the fun in life, after the business I started became a success,  after I bought the car I wanted to have, after I built a palace for myself,after I got married and had kids,I can kill myself.

Does it make any sense?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 07, 2012, 05:33:29 AM
Life is like a gift. It's like the most precious gift anyone want to have. Its what differentiates a living organism from a non-living matter.

Death is when this gift is taken away. Imagine a 5 year old child playing with his favourite toy. What happens when his toy is taken away?

Has anybody here experienced near-death like situations? I mean where you were seconds away from death?


Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 07, 2012, 06:22:22 AM
Obviously we're assuming that only you (the individual) would become immortal. Regardless, there's only so many things that you can do.

The way I look at it is this: I already have more new books to read, TV shows & films to watch, games to play, and other stuff to do than I have time for.  My "reading pile" is getting bigger as new books come out, my Sky+ box is getting fuller and fuller.

So my point is that new things are being added faster than I can deal with the old ones....nor do I have the time to do things more than once where I want to do so (some re-reading, but also playing the same games over and over).

While that condition continues - while new games are being made, new books being written, new shows being made - I can't see me running out of things I want to do.

Like I say, it DOES depend on their being a continuing stream of other people around to produce stuff for me to enjoy, so that's a condition of my not getting bored - as I've already said, being "the only one left" would get old very quickly.

For me to accept that I'd run out of things to do, I'd have to be seeing my reading pile (etc) going DOWN already.....and it strikes me that if I was already heading that way, then immortality isn't an issue anyways: I'd be looking at becoming bored with life inside a normal lifetime.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 07, 2012, 06:31:48 AM
<snip>
For me to accept that I'd run out of things to do, I'd have to be seeing my reading pile (etc) going DOWN already.....

Doesn't matter. I think that the problem can best be explained with math.
X2 (when X>0) "grows" slightly more quickly than 2X at the beginning. However, past a certain point, its "growth" is slower. Likewise, right now the pile of things to do[1] is increasing more quickly than the number of things that have been done. However, given an infinite amount of time, we would eventually reach the point in which we will have written every book with every possible genre in every possible way[2].
Sure, the number of ways in which something (in this case, writing books) can be done is ridiculously high. But then so is infinity. In fact, infinity is infinitely larger.
 1. To be more precise, our perception of that which can be done.
 2. For example. Applies to everything that can be done.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 07, 2012, 07:08:07 AM
be more precise, our perception of that which can be done.[/nb] is increasing more quickly than the number of things that have been done. However, given an infinite amount of time, we would eventually reach the point in which we will have written every book with every possible genre in every possible way[1].
 1. For example. Applies to everything that can be done.

I can agree with that so far as it goes, but I have two objections - one mathematical, one practical.

The math one: I agree with what you say talking about books - or, as you say, with respect of any medium or genre or whatever.  But we're not talking about just one thing and its permutations - there's all manner of media, all manner of hobbies, all manner of all kinds of stuff, each subject to the multiple combinations.

Now, I accept that "lots of things" x "lots of variations" does NOT equal infinity, no matter how large the "lots" in each parameter may be......but I was presuming that we were putting a maximum boundary on the universe?  That - one day - there will be no universe for me to exist in?  In other words, that we were bounding "immortality" as tied to the lifespan of the universe, not immortality=infinite existence (and I said already, no fun living past the end of everything anyway!)

Point being, lots of stuff, lots of ways, assuming continued people to produce it, will keep me entertained forever.  After all, once I've read the book and seen the movie, I can then look forward to the holographic version, then the implant version, the VR version, the 4D sensorama version.....and who knows what yet to come?  All, essentially, the same plot, but enjoyable again in the different version.  (e.g LOTR - the books, the Bakti (sp?) version, the Jackson versions - long and short,......and who knows what the VR version will be like in 2147?  I'll still expect Boromir to die, but I'll enjoy seeing it again in a different way.

Which brings me on to the second point, which may be where our difference really lies?

I know there are some people who can't bear to do the same thing again, no matter how much they enjoyed it first time round.  But that's not me, not by a long way.  I've read "The Stand" about 6 times now, and seen the TV series 3 or 4 times.  And I know full well I will do both again.  Read LOTR at least 10 times, seen the films 4 or 5 times.  Every Pratchett book I've read at least twice, up to 7 or 8 times for the older ones.  Ditto my Stephen Kings, my George R.R. Martins, my Dilbert books, Calvin & Hobbes, Bloom County (I'g going along my shelves  ;D ), Asterix (a dozen or more times), Dr.Doolittle, Fritz Leiber, Robert Heinlein, Tove Jansson, Narnia, Oz, Pern, Charlie Brown & Snoopy, Sharpe, the Stainless Steel Rat....then DVDs of Red Dwarf, Doctor Who, The Prisoner, The Mighty Boosh, A Very Peculiar Practice......

I'll stop now because you get the idea.  But each thing above I have read/watched several times, and I know I will happily do so for each of them many many more times.  And I'm equally sure that I will only be adding to that "happy-repeat" list as time goes on, not just because more stuff will be coming out, but because there's a lots of stuff I already KNOW I want to add to it, but haven't yet through lack of cash or space: This Is Jinsy I know will get more watchings.  "God? No!" will get read over and over.

And that's just books and DVDs.  I've played Warhammer over and over.  Starship Troopers.  Ankh-Morpork.  Caylus Magna Carta.  God's Playground.   Munchkins.  Maori.   And more.....and that's just the "physical" games.  On the PC, I've been playing X-Com (Ufo: Enemy Unknown) for decades.  Ditto Lords of Midnight.  Umpteen game on Yucata.de (I'm Anfauglir there too!).  Cosmic Encounter Online (ditto!).  Grand Prix 3, Elite, Total War, Wii Sports......and again I could go on and on and on.

Already, I have enough OLD stuff that I love and enjoy, that would take a couple years to cycle through even if I didn't do ANYTHING new.  And at the end of that cycle I'd be thinking "hmmm, time to start over again at the beginning".  And I honestly, honestly can't see that stopping - especially if with the time and resources I could get that cycling up to (say) ten years between repeats?  Could I enjoy re-reading "Reaper Man" again every ten years forever?  You bet I could - its been read half a dozen times already, I haven't read it just for a couple years, and already my memory of the details is hazy, certainly the actual language and sequence of events.  And I honestly don't believe that reading it every ten years or so, that I would reach the stage where I remembered it word for word, not even after ten thousand readings.....certainly not if it were only 1 book in a ten (or twenty, or more) -year cycle of the things I love.

And, like I say, that's without all the new stuff coming out.  I could happily live forever with what I already have - almost 1400 books (blimey!  :o ) for starters.

But I appreciate that's not for everybody.  But seriously - I could deal quite happily with immortality, at least so far as there is stuff around that I love. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 07, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
but I was presuming that we were putting a maximum boundary on the universe?  That - one day - there will be no universe for me to exist in?

The universe will exist forever. "Heat death"[1] would not affect you. You would exist forever alongside the universe.

I know there are some people who can't bear to do the same thing again, no matter how much they enjoyed it first time round.  But that's not me, not by a long way.
<snip>
I'll stop now because you get the idea.

I do get the idea - you're still thinking like a mortal being. And therein lies your problem. Sure, you can watch something six or ten times and enjoy it. You might even watch it every second of every day for as long as you're awake and still be entertained. That's nothing[2] compared to infinity. You'd be doomed to do the same things over and over and over (...) and over again. For eternity.

But I appreciate that's not for everybody.  But seriously - I could deal quite happily with immortality, at least so far as there is stuff around that I love. 

Like I said above, you're still thinking like a mortal. You need to put things into a much larger perspective. You can't tell me that you've never gotten bored with anything. That's just not possible.

Of course, note that we're also assuming that you'd be able to remember all of that. In our current state (with limited "space" for memories), immortality would kick ass.
 1. Which seems to be the most likely outcome, judging from the way the universe is expanding.
 2. Literally.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 07, 2012, 08:28:33 AM
Of course, note that we're also assuming that you'd be able to remember all of that. In our current state (with limited "space" for memories), immortality would kick ass.

That's pretty much what I was assuming.  I have trouble remembering all the details of a book I read just a year or so ago, so it seems fresh when I return to it.  If I were on a 100-year cycle to return to it - with my memory! - it'd be as good then as it was last time.

Of course, that's assuming my tastes didn't change....but then if they did, that'd be even better!  It'd add more "new" things to do....and then in a thousand years when my tastes change back, I'd have a load more "new old things" to enjoy again!

Anyhoo.....in summary, I'm not turning down immortality on the off-chance I might get bored in a billion years....just in case there's a genie or a capricious godling reading this thread!
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 07, 2012, 08:37:27 AM
just in case there's a genie or a capricious godling reading this thread!

Your wish has been granted. Enjoy eternal boredom. ;)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: orpat on March 07, 2012, 09:34:04 AM
I might be wrong but as far as I remember reading it somewhere that immortality as per the bible isnt how it is viewed today but a period of 1 000 years.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on March 07, 2012, 10:48:31 AM
If mankind were to somehow become immortal would that like cause us to increase our quest for knowledge or would we become lazy and forgo much of our scientific studies since natural death and presumably disease would be things of the past?
Initially I would image that war and murder would be huge problems as the reality of infinite lifespans in a world of limited resources was realized. My hope would be that as immortals we would not need natural resources for sustainance. I imagine great scientific minds would focus on answering the biggest questions of such an existence eventually enabling us to leave planet Earth exploring and colonizing the universe. If immortality were to ever become a real possibility chances are it would involve us discovering a way for our consciousness to exist without the natural body. (I guess if that were to be the case we'd no longer be human).
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 08, 2012, 07:14:45 AM
My hope would be that as immortals we would not need natural resources for sustainance.

Possibly.  But then again, imagine living on a planet full of immortals where all the resources has been eaten decades ago.....and where you still felt hunger.  How long might we take to resort to cannibalism?

And there's another issue....if you just don't die (a la Torchwood: Miracle Day), how horrific might accidents be?  Get hit by a train....and still live, unable to die.  And if we DID start trying to eat each other because all other food had gone, but we weren't able to die......brrrrrr.

Maybe I've changed my mind about wanting to be immortal........would the cannibals get me before the boredom could?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 08, 2012, 08:24:30 AM
>_>
Seriously?

Hey man, it was your analogy. I said it was a poor one.

you've just repeated yourself.  For you to say how it makes sense would require you to explain something.

I did explain it. In the very first post I made regarding that issue. Then I quoted myself in response to your question. And now I will do it again.

You are doing exactly what I said - repeating yourself.  Supposing I read your first post.  And supposing it didn't make sense.  I have asked for an explanation.  You have not given me one.  Instead you have just reposted your statement twice.  That does not help me.  You are doing the same thing over and over and for some reason expecting different results.  Why is that?

It is not necessary that I understand you.  But if you are interested in communicating - and I presume you are - then you need to work harder at it.  Telling me you have explained and that any misunderstanding or lack of comprehension is my problem does not tell me you care to be understood.


Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.

But in an infinite period of time and infinite number of things could happen.  So in fact, you could not achieve everything.  But that is beside the point.

While that may explain why putting a time limit on life may make it less boring, it does not explain how without it life lacks meaning. 

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 08, 2012, 08:40:35 AM
Hey man, it was your analogy. I said it was a poor one.

If it were not analogous in a manner that would make my explanation incorrect, you'd be right. However, my explanation was not about whether death is 20% life or whatever.

You are doing the same thing over and over and for some reason expecting different results.  Why is that?

I had assumed that you had simply ignored my statement, which is not uncommon. (I try to explain my point further at the end of this post.)

But in an infinite period of time and infinite number of things could happen.  So in fact, you could not achieve everything.  But that is beside the point.

Actually, that's exactly the point, although your statement is erroneous. Things can only happen within the laws of physics. The laws of physics do not allow for an infinite number of things. The number of things allowed by the laws of physics is extraordinarily high, but that is still smaller than the infinite amount of time you'll have to do all of them.

While that may explain why putting a time limit on life may make it less boring, it does not explain how without it life lacks meaning. 

It was always my understanding that one gave their life meaning by setting certain goals (help a lot of people, donate a lot of money, conquer the world, et cetera). If you have achieved everything that can be achieved, you can't set any goals. You've already done everything.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 08, 2012, 10:12:42 AM
If it were not analogous in a manner that would make my explanation incorrect, you'd be right. However, my explanation was not about whether death is 20% life or whatever.

I knew you weren't saying that.  The problem was, I could not tell what you were saying by using that analogy.  Which is why it was a poor analogy.

Analogies are tough. None of them are exactly the same thing as what you are trying to relate them to.  And whomever you are arguing with is going to push them to the breaking point because it serves their purpose.  And then the argument is about the analogy and not the actual point.  I advocate using them sparingly or not at all because they seldom make the point you want to make.  But that is difficult to do because they seem so convenient.

I had assumed that you had simply ignored my statement, which is not uncommon.

I get that.  But when you are asked to explain, maybe the better, more generous assumption is that it was not ignored.

Actually, that's exactly the point...

I don't think it is.  But if it is, it is not a point I am interested in.  So please pardon me if I skip over this bit.


It was always my understanding that one gave their life meaning by setting certain goals (help a lot of people, donate a lot of money, conquer the world, et cetera). If you have achieved everything that can be achieved, you can't set any goals. You've already done everything.

What about goals that are unattainable or ongoing?  For example, can a person achieve perfection? 

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 08, 2012, 10:48:50 AM
The problem was, I could not tell what you were saying by using that analogy.

Why? It was used with my claim that life without death is meaningless.

I get that.  But when you are asked to explain, maybe the better, more generous assumption is that it was not ignored.

My experience tells me otherwise. I've often had "misunderstandings" because whomever it was simply did not read my posts. And before you say it's my fault, consider this:
If I repeat myself (exact quote, save for bolding the most relevant parts) and the misunderstanding goes away, who was really at fault there?

What about goals that are unattainable or ongoing?  For example, can a person achieve perfection? 

Your "perfection" example is flawed because "perfection" is relative, but setting impossible goals does not solve the issue. You can't do anything to come closer to achieving said goals when you've already done everything that can be done. Eventually, you will realize that and give up on that goal, which takes us back to the main issue.
As for ongoing goals, that will also not solve the problem. As I pointed out to Anfauglir, you need to put things into a much larger perspective. Even with our limited lifespans, we become bored with things. Now imagine if we had an infinite amount of time. We would become bored with everything, eventually, and give up on all ongoing goals.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 08, 2012, 12:57:46 PM
Why? It was used with my claim that life without death is meaningless.

Why what?  Why did I not understand what you were trying to say?  I don't know how to answer that, Luc.  Because I'm stupid?  Because you're stupid?  Is "why" even a cogent question to ask about it?  What's it matter why?   

Can we let that point go?  I feel like we're beating a dead horse. 

My experience tells me otherwise. I've often had "misunderstandings" because whomever it was simply did not read my posts.

So have I.  I usually refer people to my previous post, ask if they've read it and then let them know if they have further questions I will explain more.  I also take into consideration to whom I am speaking.  The people who have an established reputation of being smart, thorough people - in other words, people who I respect - get the benefit of the doubt.  If you (or a whole bunch of other people here) asked me to explain something I thought I already had, I would, even if I thought I had been crystal clear.  I would do it because you have earned my respect and I think it would be respectful to do.  Plus, I like to hear myself talk/ read my own blathering.

...who was really at fault there?

Why does it matter whether you or I are "at fault"?  Why do either of us have to be "at fault"?  Let's have a mutually respectful conversation.  To me that means generously helping the other participants to understand your point.  Not everyone is going to get it the first time, for whatever reason.  Hatter and I both missed your point.  Be a pal and help us out.  Just quoting yourself comes off kind of arrogant and does not show a lot of respect.  I think Hatter's earned that much respect.  I think I have too.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 08, 2012, 02:24:09 PM
What's it matter why?   

I was just curious.

So have I.  I usually refer people to my previous post, ask if they've read it and then let them know if they have further questions I will explain more.

I simply quote it, as I think it's enough.

I also take into consideration to whom I am speaking.
<snip>

That's where we differ. I treat every PoV and every claim the same way, regardless of who's speaking. Or at least I try. There will always be some occasions in which I will refrain from doing so for some reason.

Why does it matter whether you or I are "at fault"?  Why do either of us have to be "at fault"?

It was a reference to the -1 you[1] gave me a while back, which basically said that I was the one to blame for the misunderstandings.

Hatter and I both missed your point.  Be a pal and help us out.

I did it[2] in a manner consistent with the assumption that you had simply not read my post completely, and for that I apologize.

Just quoting yourself comes off kind of arrogant and does not show a lot of respect.

Arrogant? Maybe. Lack of respect? Not even close. I consider it simple unbiasedness. As I mentioned above, I try to treat every PoV the same way, regardless of who's speaking.
 1. IIRC
 2. Or at least tried to.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 08, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
I simply quote it, as I think it's enough.

As the guy on the other end of it, it isn't enough.

I treat every PoV and every claim the same way, regardless of who's speaking.

Why?  Not everyone is the same.


It was a reference to the -1 you[1] gave me a while back, which basically said that I was the one to blame for the misunderstandings.
 1. IIRC

If we are remembering the same thing, what I said was the responsibility of communication lies with the person transmitting the message.  It is not about fault.  It is about responsibility.  There are nuances that differentiate those words that someone whose first language is not English may not immediately get.

I did it in a manner consistent with the assumption that you had simply not read my post completely, and for that I apologize.

I appreciate that.

Arrogant? Maybe. Lack of respect? Not even close.

That may not be how you intended to sound, but that is how it sounded to me.  You might ask Hatter his opinion on it.  Just because you think you would have treated anyone that way does not mean it was not disrespectful.

 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 08, 2012, 06:06:49 PM
As the guy on the other end of it, it isn't enough.

In this case it wasn't. Most of the time it is.

Why?  Not everyone is the same.

But every PoV must be treated in the same manner, if we are to arrive at the most likely conclusion, correct?

That may not be how you intended to sound, but that is how it sounded to me.  You might ask Hatter his opinion on it.  Just because you think you would have treated anyone that way does not mean it was not disrespectful.

I'm guessing that that's because you think that respect means one should be exempt from the natural reactions of another. I do not. If I respect someone, I may ask them for their opinion on issues in which my opinion has not "settled in", so to speak, or is non-existent, because I acknowledge their superior knowledge regarding that issue. However, if my opinion has already "settled in" and I believe it to be well supported, I will defend it in a manner consistent with every other argument I've had.
There are exceptions, obviously. If, for example, I were speaking to someone whose knowledge of black holes made mine seem insignificant, I would ask them why what I had heard and studied was not valid, rather than say they were wrong outright. If their claims were utter nonsense, however (for example, saying that the event horizon is a "barrier" from which anything can escape), I would certainly yell[1] BS and tell them that they were wrong.
 1. Metaphorically speaking.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 09, 2012, 09:34:01 AM
But every PoV must be treated in the same manner, if we are to arrive at the most likely conclusion, correct?

Yes, but that is not what I am talking about.  We certainly should be skeptical of everyone's ideas and question them.  But the manner in which we do it need not be the same.  There is a difference between having a discussion about an idea with, say, Anfauglir, versus say, fizixgeek.  Anfauglir's ideas/ beliefs are no more off limits or sacrosanct than fizixgeek's.  But he has earned my respect as a rational person so that while I endeavor to thoroughly dissect his ideas, I would try to do so in a way that shows that respect.  Fiz, on the other hand, has shown himself to be impervious to facts, reason, or changing his mind.  He has not earned much of my respect.  The two of them are not equal and so do not get equal treatment.

I'm guessing that that's because you think that respect means one should be exempt from the natural reactions of another.

No. 

Look, I am not trying to beat you up or have an argument.  I am trying to give you some information about yourself so that hopefully you will reflect on it and grow from it. You don't have to believe me.  You don't have to agree with me.  And I am not going to spend much more time trying to convince you.  You have the information.  When I said you should ask Hatter his opinion, it was not rhetorical.  I think you really should ask Hatter his opinion.  And a few other people here you respect too.  Then, think about what they had to say.  It is not an easy thing to accept criticism of one's self.  But it is often the only way to progress.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 09, 2012, 10:52:43 AM
Before you read my reply, you should be aware that I've been called arrogant many times by different people over the years, and I am sick of it[1], so you're in for a short rant.

Yes, but that is not what I am talking about.  We certainly should be skeptical of everyone's ideas and question them.  But the manner in which we do it need not be the same.
<snip>

Once again, that's where we differ. If someone presents an idea I know to be utterly moronic, I will call that idea just that, regardless of who's speaking.[2] If someone has questions about that which I think was made perfectly clear, I will react as if my assumption was correct. You may call that "arrogance" all you want.

However, even if I were to talk to people in a way that "reflects my respect for them", there's a very good reason for the fact that I don't, beyond the fact that I don't think you should treat people's opinions differently just because you respect them: I don't know who you are.

I know maybe one or two people here[3]. The rest are complete strangers, as far as I'm concerned.

Look, I am not trying to beat you up or have an argument.

Obviously.

I am trying to give you some information about yourself so that hopefully you will reflect on it and grow from it.

Protip[4]: If you think you know something about me[5] that I don't already know, you're wrong.

You don't have to believe me.  You don't have to agree with me.

If I don't do either one, it seems kinda pointless to think about it; don't you think so?

And I am not going to spend much more time trying to convince you.

Nobody does.[6]

When I said you should ask Hatter his opinion, it was not rhetorical.  I think you really should ask Hatter his opinion.

Hatter23 is free to share his opinion if he deems it necessary. However, other than my natural curiosity, I don't feel compelled to ask him to share it.

It is not an easy thing to accept criticism of one's self.  But it is often the only way to progress.

Criticism of one's self is saying, for example[7], that the fact that one thinks of everyone else as inferior is bad. It is not an attempt to change the way one sees oneself to match your PoV.

I know how I am. You may perceive me differently, but that won't change the truth. You seem to think that just because I respect someone I should treat them with "kid gloves" or something like that. I do not. You think that I'm arrogant. I might be more inclined to agree with you on this, although what some of you[8] perceive as me being arrogant is simply me being honest.
If I did not change my mind and/or apologize for being wrong, I would feel more inclined to agree with you on the arrogance thing. The truth is that when I make mistakes, I apologize and concede that I was wrong. I learn.

Humility is not assuming that one is wrong. It is acknowledging that one is not always right. There is an enormous difference between the two that most people just don't seem to get. In this specific case, yes, I was wrong in my assumption. I acknowledged that. I apologized.
 1. "It" being when people say that I'm being arrogant for assuming that I'm right.
 2. I'm not saying that that's what happened on this thread.
 3. By which I mean I know more than just their usernames.
 4. Which you will most likely consider arrogant.
 5. Personality-wise.
 6. Not that that's a bad thing. If someone spent all of their time trying to prove me wrong about myself, neither one of us would be able to do anything ever again.
 7. And by "example" I mean something I came up with; not something I do.
 8. People who are not me.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on March 09, 2012, 07:19:06 PM
I know maybe one or two people here[1]. The rest are complete strangers, as far as I'm concerned.

 1. By which I mean I know more than just their usernames.

I like to think of many members here as a part of a community of friends, albeit online.  From our interactions through posting and our time on the forum, we most certainly begin to get a feel for personalities and other things that are no different than becoming friends in person.

If you call me a complete stranger, and that's what you truly believe, then you are effectively saying that the relationship is inconsequential to whatever you may have decided about who I am as an online personality.  That flies in the face of the type of social connections that human beings are generally predisposed for, IMO.

I think you should consider that the attitude portrayed in your "complete stranger" comment, may be considered by those who know you well, as rude or inconsiderate. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: One Above All on March 09, 2012, 07:30:39 PM
From our interactions through posting and our time on the forum, we most certainly begin to get a feel for personalities and other things that are no different than becoming friends in person.

I remember some posts I make and some posts other people make, but not nearly enough for something like that.

If you call me a complete stranger, and that's what you truly believe, then you are effectively saying that the relationship is inconsequential to whatever you may have decided about who I am as an online personality.

I haven't decided anything about who you are, simply because I don't remember enough of your posts to do it. However, I can safely assume that you're a fair person, as you are a moderator on the forum.

That flies in the face of the type of social connections that human beings are generally predisposed for, IMO.

You'd be surprised[1] how often I do that.

I think you should consider that the attitude portrayed in your "complete stranger" comment, may be considered by those who know you well, as rude or inconsiderate. 

I have, but I don't think that those who know me well would think that.
That said, I apologize to those who do and wish to assure them that it is not my intention to be rude or inconsiderate.
 1. Or maybe not.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Tate on March 16, 2012, 10:09:19 PM
The Answer is God is not healing today. The Answer is Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 19, 2012, 05:56:05 AM
The Answer is God is not healing today. The Answer is Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division.

Cessationism is nothing more than an excuse. It conveniently pushes the alleged miraculous events so far back in time that they cannot be verified, thus relieving the cessationist Christian of having to provide any evidence. But I don't know many cessationists who would say that Mark 11:23-24 is nothing more than a local and temporary principle that does not apply today. And as long as that "promise" is viewed as a universal principle, it obligates God to answer any and every believing prayer completely and exactly as the believe asked for it, even if the answer requires a miracle.

I think the more likely reason that we do not see this happening is because God is imaginary.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 19, 2012, 08:02:13 AM
The Answer is God is not healing today. The Answer is Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division.

So then all the people who have faith in god based on "miraculous" healing are full of beans.  I totally agree.

That also forces some pretty stiff conclusions about a supposed omnimax god.  I have never heard of "Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division", so maybe you could explain that a bit?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on March 19, 2012, 08:16:45 AM
The Answer is God is not healing today.

I've heard this response before.  Is there any support for it in the bible?  (I'm not being snarky, here, I'm actually asking.)

Quote
The Answer is Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division.

I'm not aware of anything in this doctrine that supports Cessationism.  Can you advise?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on March 19, 2012, 12:22:37 PM
The Answer is God is not healing today. The Answer is Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division.

ah, the usual excuses.  More Christians, well, more appropriately Paulians, who have decided that their version is the only right one. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 19, 2012, 12:33:23 PM
That also forces some pretty stiff conclusions about a supposed omnimax god.  I have never heard of "Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division", so maybe you could explain that a bit?

I did some research. That division is part of the Department of Redundancy Department, headed up by a Master Theist 1st Class, Level A, Type O positive. There are also "Late Acts" and "Early Acts" divisions. You could have googled it.  :D



Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on March 20, 2012, 06:41:46 AM
You could have googled it. 

I did.  I got a lot of gobbledegook that made no sense to me.  I saw a lot of sites talking about a verse from...Timothy? about how to "rightly divide the gospel", but they didn't explain what that actually meant.  It was all coded xian language that doesn't mean jack shit to an outsider. 

I was hoping a human could explain it better.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Hatter23 on March 20, 2012, 07:39:44 AM
I was hoping a human could explain it better.

Yea, but you got a theist (boom boom tish!)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: DR HANS SCHWANTZ on April 05, 2012, 07:18:43 PM
Greetings

I posted here in February 2012 and of course it was a tough opening night as they say for me!

However after reading the debates here and the thoughts from both the theists and the naturalists, I must admit I have learned much concerning both sides.

I love to learn and enjoy opening my mind to all possibilities and this site has certainly provided a very good education for me.

I also agree with Chapter 32 The future of the Human Race from the Why Wont God Heal Amputees on-line book, as I have often told my family why does humanity allow so much suffering in this world when we can do something about it today?

I have never been a debater per se, and will continue to enjoy being a reader and question asker as needed, as there are enough people on this site to provide the interesting debating material for a long time to come.

My apologies for the initial post (reply #205) as one needs to learn and listen to both sides point of view before you can just come out and say my view is the only way! 8)

Peace
Hans

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: The Gawd on April 05, 2012, 08:51:55 PM
@ Dr Hans

If you enjoy reading and learning, in the general forum, there is a stickied thread called "kcrady - old school" full of a bunch of posts and discussions by the member kcrady. I learned a lot and was thoroughly entertained by it.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on April 06, 2012, 08:51:54 AM
Hans, you are more than welcome to start a thread answering some of the questions put to you.   Hope you have a nice stay. :)
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Truth OT on April 09, 2012, 02:25:30 PM
The Answer is God is not healing today.

I've heard this response before.  Is there any support for it in the bible?  (I'm not being snarky, here, I'm actually asking.)

Quote
The Answer is Mid Acts Dispensational Right Division.

I'm not aware of anything in this doctrine that supports Cessationism.  Can you advise?

From my Campbellite past, the idea of the cessation of spiritual gifts, healings, and miracles in general is the norm. If I recall correctly, in 1 Corinthians 13, there is a passage of scripture that talks about tongues, prophesy, etc. being done away with when that which is perfect or complete comes. According to my Campbellite brethren, the "perfect" that came was the completed NT writings. Because of this, it is believed that miraculous gifts have been done away with since the late 1st century.

reference: http://www.bible.ca/su-miracles-today.htm
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jeremy0 on April 15, 2012, 02:11:44 AM
...the why God doesn't heal them is that they are being punished for their deeds in their past life. It could be that.
So you're saying I was both Kahn and Hitler in past lives?  Why else would I be 'punished' so much in my life?  Bullshit. 
Here's sound logical reasoning:
1.  I am a good person, realistically.  yes, I have my 'flaws', so to speak..
2.  If I am a good person, and God is Great, then He would be a better person than I..
3.  Holding that #2 is true, and God isn't actually evil in any way, there would be absolutely no reason for any kind of punishment.  He could just tell you the story, correct you, and perfect you.  Can't he do anything he wants?  Isn't that the very definition of God?
4.  Since God isn't like #3 in the Christian religion any religion out there then he must not exist at all...
5.  If God is a deity, and Satan is his opponent, why would he condemn be satan's greatest gift and send you all to hell???
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 10:04:08 AM
God is healing people all the time.  I have seen it.  The question is if you did see a healing would you believe?   Most people would not.  In your intellect you want to see God not in searching for him to be lord and savior.  Even if God did heal someone all you would mock it and pull it apart and justify in your mind that it did not happen. Here is a revelation that happen when Jesus healed people over 2000 year ago. 

I challenge you to ask god to prove to that he is real.  bash me all you want but you want proof ask god.  Hold on it will be a bumpy road, you may have to give up porn, selffishness, apathy and other things.  If you do not want to seek Him honestly he may treat you just like the Pharoh. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on April 26, 2012, 10:07:23 AM
God is healing people all the time.  I have seen it.

Many others before you have made the same claim.  When asked for proof, they never offer any.  I don't expect you to be any different.

Quote
The question is if you did see a healing would you believe?

If it were unambiguous and properly documented, yes.  But that never happens.

Quote
I challenge you to ask god to prove to that he is real.

Most of us, including me, have already done so.  More than once.  He has never given us any response.  Oh, well.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 10:10:08 AM
4.  Since God isn't like #3 in the Christian religion any religion out there then he must not exist at all...

First of all, all other "religions" bring god to a human understanding.  God (jesus) brings us out of humanity. Thats how you know all the rest of the religions are false. 


5.  If God is a deity, and Satan is his opponent, why would he condemn be satan's greatest gift and send you all to hell???
[/quote]

God so love the world he gave his only son to die for the sins of the world.  Jesus Atoning death is a gift for Salvation.  You need to accept Jesus as lord and savior.  It is your choice not God's choice. 

Everyone has eternal life you have to decide where you want to spend it.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on April 26, 2012, 10:12:58 AM
God so love the world he gave his only son to die for the sins of the world.  Jesus Atoning death is a gift for Salvation.  You need to accept Jesus as lord and savior.  It is your choice not God's choice.

No, actually it is Yahweh's choice, because he created all the rules.  Even if it weren't, though: I had no say in the matter when Jesus allowed himself to get nailed to that tree, and if I had, I would not have asked for it or allowed it.  There's only one person who should pay any kind of a penalty for anything I've done wrong, and it isn't him.

Quote
Everyone has eternal life you have to decide where you want to spend it.

Consciousness does not continue after death.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 10:16:52 AM
Most of us, including me, have already done so.  More than once.  He has never given us any response.  Oh, well.
[/quote]

If your looking for the burning bush and a deep voice saying "Pianodwarf I have seen and heard your prayers".  your not going to get it.  In 2003 I raised both fists to God and told him if he was real to prove it to me.  He did.  It took a long time for me to process what happened but I fell to my knees and saw my whole life flash before my eyes. 

I have studied and saught Him.  I have seen people deliver from demons. I have seen legs grow, backs healed, tomurs shrunk (confirmed by doctors).  Just becuase you have not seen it does not mean it is not happening and most people justify the stuff so they do not have to deal with it.   
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 10:18:08 AM
God so love the world he gave his only son to die for the sins of the world.

But he didn't die and we were not forgiven, plus we are only 'guilty' by the arbitrary declaration of the very god that claims he loves us.  A 'guilt' assigned for us, before we exist, for nothing we could possibly be rationally responsible for.  We have no free will to even choose an alternate path then the one made up for us.

Quote
  Jesus Atoning death is a gift for Salvation.  You need to accept Jesus as lord and savior.  It is your choice not God's choice. 

Jesus doesn't sacrifice anything, jesus being a god still has everything jesus had beforehand.  The 'sacrifice' of jesus is like a child kicking over a pile of stones that can be stacked back up again, while calling it a 'sacrifice'.

The only 'meaning' it has is your over emphasis that it really really is meaningful, taken literally its asinine and incoherent to the point of contradiction.

It is also not a 'choice', I can no more believe that my sub compact death trap of a car is a magical flying dragon ready to wisk me away to work then I can believe that a vindictive supernatural sky daddy created the world 10,000 years ago and sent himself to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself.

Knowledge is not derived by choice and this isn't a message of 'love', this is a message of compulsion under a threat of imagined violence to believe nonsense.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 10:19:56 AM
Nathan, you're evoking your religious rhetoric as if we were as indoctrinated as you.  Since we are not indoctrinated, simply repeating the platitude like language about your belief is meaningless to us.  Simply repeating the rhetoric over and over doesn't answer for the contradictions within your religious beliefs.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 10:20:16 AM
No, actually it is Yahweh's choice, because he created all the rules.  Even if it weren't, though: I had no say in the matter when Jesus allowed himself to get nailed to that tree, and if I had, I would not have asked for it or allowed it.  There's only one person who should pay any kind of a penalty for anything I've done wrong, and it isn't him.

God's grace atoned for all you have done wrong so you may have relationship with Him.  He is holy and when Adam and Eve fell it excluded us from relationship.   We all fall short of the glory of god (romans 3). 

Consciousness does not continue after death. 

Science does not agree.  And since I have seen demons delivered from people not do I
[/quote]
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 10:23:33 AM
God's grace atoned for all you have done wrong so you may have relationship with Him.  He is holy and when Adam and Eve fell it excluded us from relationship.   We all fall short of the glory of god (romans 3). 

"grace" doesn't mean anything, it is another pleaded qualifier in a long list of special pleading fallacies.  It is an arbitrarily inserted adjective, that pertains to no other logical point or even necessitates the explanation you seem to draw from it.  You're just repeating a language of nonsense, based on indoctrination, as if other people believed it or were as poorly educated as yourself.

You're painting a superstitious myth where your god is so incredibly stupid that it couldn't imagine a better system than the one it created.  Hence, reductio ad absurdum, if taken to its logical conclusions it paints a god who contradicts the very meaning of 'god' itself.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Knowledge is not derived by choice and this isn't a message of 'love', this is a message of compulsion under a threat of imagined violence to believe nonsense.

I agree you believe nonsense. Quatum physics proved alternate worlds.  if you think this is all we are then intellect is nonsense.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 10:27:27 AM
I agree you believe nonsense. Quatum physics proved alternate worlds.  if you think this is all we are then intellect is nonsense.

This has nothing to do with what I believe and you're not even responding to the previous post, you're just engaging in a dismissive strawman.

What about your religious beliefs motivates you to be this hateful and dishonest?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: naemhni on April 26, 2012, 10:31:43 AM
I have seen people deliver from demons. I have seen legs grow, backs healed, tomurs shrunk (confirmed by doctors).

One of the rules here at WWGHA is that if you make a claim such as this one, you will be expected to back it up.  Please do so.  I will not be responding to any more of your posts until then.

In fact, at this point, you would do well to pause for a bit and read the rules, here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21732.0.html

You're already breaking some of those rules, and if you continue, you can expect moderator intervention before too long.  Please note that I'm only trying to be helpful.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on April 26, 2012, 10:53:20 AM
God is healing people all the time.  I have seen it.  The question is if you did see a healing would you believe?   Most people would not.  In your intellect you want to see God not in searching for him to be lord and savior.  Even if God did heal someone all you would mock it and pull it apart and justify in your mind that it did not happen. Here is a revelation that happen when Jesus healed people over 2000 year ago.
Then you need to show us who was healed, the medical records before and after and explain why the media was never told about this.  If I saw a healing, say a full leg being restored to an amputee, I would certainly wonder how it happened and then look for evidence.  CAn you show me that you can prove that any healing you saw was done by your god and only your god? 

Nathan, you use tired old claims about atheists and they amount to lies.  I know yuo have no idea whether or not "most people" would believe or not.  You claim that athesits only want to rebel againstn your god in their "intellect".  No, we do not, so that's another lie.  I believe that your god doesn't like his followers bearing false witness or lying, so you shoudl consider your words carefully if you beleive it exists.  If your god  can heal, let it heal someone in front of me. Surely, I'm that lost sheep that he wants back.  One miracle just for me.  But considering I was a Christian and I prayed to not lose my faith but did, I think your god is quite imaginary.   YOu see, I have asked God to help me and I did belive that he was real.  I've asked him to show himself since and I have yet to get a response.  You have no more ability to tell me how to reach god than I did myself or any other theist.  You have failed, unsuprisingly.  And "treat me like the Pharoah", mind control me so he can show off?  You see I've read the bible and know exactly what it says.  My, your threats about your invisible friend make me respect it and you ever so much more.  &)

 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on April 26, 2012, 11:41:54 AM
nathan,

Have you been diagnosed with mental illness?  Have you been prescribed medication for it?

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aaron123 on April 26, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
If your looking for the burning bush and a deep voice saying "Pianodwarf I have seen and heard your prayers".  your not going to get it.  In 2003 I raised both fists to God and told him if he was real to prove it to me.  He did.  It took a long time for me to process what happened but I fell to my knees and saw my whole life flash before my eyes. 

Ok then, how DID god revel himself to you?

I am looking for an answer that will be distinguishable from the results of smoking crack.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Astreja on April 27, 2012, 12:38:34 AM
God so love the world he gave his only son to die for the sins of the world.  Jesus Atoning death is a gift for Salvation.

(Springy G sees a bloody, unsolicited package on Her front doorstep, and Her Dark Legion of cats milling about it in some agitation)

'Scuse Me for a second...

(Goes back into the house for a moment and returns wearing hard hat, leather gloves, safety goggles and safety shoes, and with the vaunted Clue-by-Four™ resting on Her shoulder)

Hsst!  Shoo!  Back in the house, you guys.

(Dark Legion rushes away in seven distinct directions)

*BAM BAM SMASH BAM WHAP POUND POUND KICK*

Consider that particular gift trashed.  Permanently.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Jstwebbrowsing on April 27, 2012, 01:36:03 AM
For the same reason he doesn't resurrect the dead. 

That's just the first thought that came to mind.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Brakeman on April 27, 2012, 05:49:10 AM
For the same reason he doesn't resurrect the dead. 

That's just the first thought that came to mind.
Good answer! God has to depend on deluded humans to make up a story of his curing of amputees in just the same way that he did when they made up the stories about the various resurrections that they attribute to him.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 07:15:10 AM
Quote
Ok then, how DID god revel himself to you?

Yes he did
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: HAL on April 27, 2012, 07:23:38 AM
Quote
Ok then, how DID god revel himself to you?

Yes he did

I don't believe you.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Emily on April 27, 2012, 08:54:36 AM
Quote
Ok then, how DID god revel himself to you?

Yes he did

This is the best you got? It doesn't even come close to answering the question. You can do better then this.
 
Did he come to you in a dream one night? Did he appear to you in some form in front of your eyes? Or did you attend a church service where a pastor was preaching a message that convinced you god was real?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: velkyn on April 27, 2012, 09:23:55 AM
For the same reason he doesn't resurrect the dead. 

That's just the first thought that came to mind.
what would this reason be, jst?

So we have Jst who claims that this god doesn't resurrect the dead and another theist, nate, who claimse he does.   Come on guys, show who is the one true believer here. 
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: caveat_imperator on April 27, 2012, 12:13:38 PM
Quote
Ok then, how DID god revel himself to you?

Yes he did

Is English your first language? If it is, there's no way you could've so thoroughly misread that question.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Aceluffy on May 18, 2012, 12:17:01 PM
Quote
Ok then, how DID god revel himself to you?

Yes he did

English isn't my first language. It might even be considered my fourth language and even I can't misread that question. It takes a really "special" people to misunderstood that question completely

Nathan, the question is "HOW", it's not a yes or no question.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jeremy0 on May 19, 2012, 12:39:24 AM
Nathan, the question is "HOW", it's not a yes or no question.
theist: how = yes, why = no, proof = speculation, science = religious books, evidence = you can't prove it..
atheist: how = how, yes = yes, why = why, no = no, proof = evidence, speculation = you can't prove it, science = science, religion = bullshit

I think you catch the drift..   ;D
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: meconopsilo on May 22, 2012, 07:12:59 PM
HE DOES NOT EXIST !!!! EVER CONSIDER THAT ?? man cmon now.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: meconopsilo on May 22, 2012, 07:18:41 PM
this "god" character/delusion has healed no one. never has never will. he is simply not real. i think that religion is a crutch for those who can not deal with there life. and whats silly rabbit about it is alllll these different people are forced into believing a "god" exist when there is none so they pray to there chuck norris bambi whatever and guess what????? nothing happens. nothing except the continuation of the individual acting upon false belief endlessly. insanity. why...why people ? is the mind really this weak ? hmm ?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: meconopsilo on May 22, 2012, 07:34:19 PM
i honestly apologize if i have offended anyone by any of my post on any forum and hope that you will accept my apology and look past it
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on May 22, 2012, 07:36:33 PM
i honestly apologize if i have offended anyone by any of my post on any forum and hope that you will accept my apology and look past it

No worries, welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 23, 2012, 04:50:49 PM
4.  Since God isn't like #3 in the Christian religion any religion out there then he must not exist at all...

First of all, all other "religions" bring god to a human understanding.  God (jesus) brings us out of humanity. Thats how you know all the rest of the religions are false. 


5.  If God is a deity, and Satan is his opponent, why would he condemn be satan's greatest gift and send you all to hell???

God so love the world he gave his only son to die for the sins of the world.  Jesus Atoning death is a gift for Salvation.  You need to accept Jesus as lord and savior.  It is your choice not God's choice. 

Everyone has eternal life you have to decide where you want to spend it.
[/quote]


I as a HUMAN choose to have nobody as a LORD over me......what is God/Jesus interest in being a lord of anything? If he has all the power he need not have subjects to lord over.....unless he needs to feed an EGO but then how would it be possible for the "creator" of ALL things to need his ego to be fed?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jeremy0 on May 24, 2012, 12:27:20 AM
God so love the world he gave his only son to die for the sins of the world.  Jesus Atoning death is a gift for Salvation.  You need to accept Jesus as lord and savior.  It is your choice not God's choice. 

Everyone has eternal life you have to decide where you want to spend it.
NATHAN: 

Are you five?  Listen, why in the 'heavens' would it require belief in Jesus in order to be 'saved'?  What about all the people who came before him, and all the people that have never heard of him?  Also, didn't he die for the forgiveness of ALL SIN?  Wouldn't that mean EVERYONE IS SAVED?  Why would he give a gift of salvation, and then say - if you at some point in your life didn't believe in me, you have made the choice to be damned for all eternity?  Wouldn't that include everyone?  At some point in everyones' lives, there was no belief in Jesus...

Let me put it another way - if I were God, and my requirement for heaven was based on your actions, what the fuck would it matter whether or not you chose to believe in some book, regardless of when it was written?  Also, I wouldn't need you 'believing in me' when it doesn't matter.  Yes, constantly believing in Jesus serves no real purpose. 

Now let me put it another way:  If I were god, and I had a purpose for this place, why the hell would it require the death and eternal torture of countless lives that committed crimes during their live, to serve no real purpose or cause for learning, and save only the lucky ones?  That scenario, as a god and a creator, makes no sense.  If I created this world, it served a purpose in its entirety.  I don't have a need to do senseless crap in order to bring about a better society.  In fact, we can bring about a better society today if you would just get with the program and listen...

Let me give you an example.  Do you believe in what I'm saying right now?  No?  Does it change the fact that it happened?  No.  It didn't matter.  It only matters if it CHANGED SOMETHING.  If it did, then good.  If not, no biggie. 

Now tell me this - how does belief in Jesus change anything?  Have you made yourself a better person because of it?  If you have, then I would say you only made yourself better because you wanted to be a better person, and not because your belief in Jesus just happened to make you a better person instantly...
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Lola32802 on June 15, 2012, 01:48:04 AM
The question of "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" is not a new question.  It's just a new variation of a very old philosophical concept called "The Problem of Evil".  The reasoning behind this concept is weak at best and complete whining at worst.  In a nutshell, it says that since there is suffering in the world, God either doesn't know about it, doesn't care, or can't stop it.  If God doesn't know about it, then God is not all-knowing.  If God doesn't care, then God is not perfectly good.  If God can't stop it, then God is not all-powerful.  My response (in a nutshell) is: pain happens - deal with it.  It isn't God's job to eliminate suffering.  God created our universe and our reality.  God set the parameters of that universe so that life is possible.  God expects intelligent beings to choose good over evil, but that doesn't mean that every single one of us will do so.  As for natural disasters, they are acts of nature, not acts of God.  For natural disasters to not happen, the laws of physics would need to be completely different, and if they were, we wouldn't be here talking about it since life would not exist.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Azdgari on June 15, 2012, 01:58:22 AM
I take it you didn't actually read the site's argument.
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Timo on June 15, 2012, 02:23:35 AM
The question of "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" is not a new question.  It's just a new variation of a very old philosophical concept called "The Problem of Evil".

I disagree completely.  I take it more as a challenge to those folks that, like you believe in faith healing.  You wrote in another thread:

*Religious healings* do happen.  Whether or not God is involved is a completely different matter.  My mom's friend had terminal cancer.  He went to a faith healer, and he felt a burning sensation throughout his body.  When he went back to the doctor for a check-up, the doctor told him that all of the cancer was completely gone.  Now, was it God, psi, or just a monumental placebo effect?  That's a different story, and I don't have the answer to that.  However, religious healings are definitely real.


I think it's great that your mom's friend's cancer was either misdiagnosed or went into remission.  But I really do wonder, if there is such a thing as faith healing, why is it off limits for amputees?
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: screwtape on June 15, 2012, 07:20:46 AM
It's just a new variation of a very old philosophical concept called "The Problem of Evil".

you are incorrect

The reasoning behind this concept is weak at best and complete whining at worst. 

Also incorrect.

In a nutshell, it says...

If you'd spent some time reading the posts in this forum you would see we are familiar with theodicy and do not need you to explain it to us.  Thanks for the effort, though.

My response (in a nutshell) is: pain happens - deal with it.

A wholly inadequated response that just avoids the question.  It is a way of saying "just shut up". 

As for dealing with suffering, we do.  We are not shaking our fists at god.  We recognize the god you imagine is just that - imaginary.  So we get on with our lives and deal with the suffering.  Just like everyone else.  The difference is we no longer go through the pointless motions of begging the creator to spare us.

It isn't God's job to eliminate suffering.  God created our universe and our reality. 

You miss the point and contradict yourself.  You cannot be responsible for all being and simultaneously not responsible for the ugly parts of it.  When you are the omnipotent creator of all being, the buck stops at you.

For natural disasters to not happen, the laws of physics would need to be completely different, and if they were, we wouldn't be here talking about it since life would not exist.

So you are saying, god is not omnipotent.  An omnipotent god could have arranged it so.

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: JeffPT on June 15, 2012, 09:29:54 PM
The question of "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" is not a new question.  It's just a new variation of a very old philosophical concept called "The Problem of Evil".  The reasoning behind this concept is weak at best and complete whining at worst.  In a nutshell, it says that since there is suffering in the world, God either doesn't know about it, doesn't care, or can't stop it.

This is wrong Lola.  The WWGA question is deeper than that.  It has nothing to do with the problem of evil. You're thinking too superficially.  I'll give you a clue to get you moving in the right direction:  Christians believe that God cures cancer and all sort of ailments (that can and do heal on their own) all the time.  What is the fundamental, observable difference between healing cancer and an amputee?  Think it through.

My response (in a nutshell) is: pain happens - deal with it.

That is not an answer as to why God doesn't heal amputees.  That's a dodge of the question.  It's a brush off. 

It isn't God's job to eliminate suffering.

Strike 2. 

Do you really feel good about worshiping a God that looks down on a pediatric oncology ward, throws up his hands and says, "Hey, not my fuckin' problem". 

Plus the fact that if you are going to say religious healings DO happen (which you did say in another post), then why doesn't He heal everybody?  Is God deserving of worship if he has the ability to heal everyone, but picks and chooses who to heal based on (pardon the phrase) God knows what?  I've used this analogy before... if a doctor had a pill that cured every form of cancer in the world, and then only gave it to the people he wanted to, what would you think of him? 

Honestly, you Christians don't think these things through at all. 

God created our universe and our reality.  God set the parameters of that universe so that life is possible.  God expects intelligent beings to choose good over evil, but that doesn't mean that every single one of us will do so. 

No.  God did none of those things because God is not real.  As humans, we choose good over bad mainly because it feels better to do good than bad. 

As for natural disasters, they are acts of nature, not acts of God. 

If you are going to say acts of nature are independent of God (and this is something we agree on), then it opens the door to the very real possibility that every single thing that happens, everywhere in the universe, is an act of nature, not an act of God.  Prove me wrong.  Show me evidence that something could not possibly have happened without an act of God driving it, and I will believe you.  But please understand, that evidence would have to be solid enough to convince me beyond any reasonable doubt.  On par with enough evidence to prove that the Tooth Fairy was real.  Otherwise, everything is natural. 

For natural disasters to not happen, the laws of physics would need to be completely different, and if they were, we wouldn't be here talking about it since life would not exist.

So... wait a minute here.  You think religious healings are not violations of the laws of nature?  Is God capable of manipulating the laws of nature or not?  You're confusing me here.  Is God not capable of stopping an earthquake by simply lowering the pacific plate down slowly instead of having it slide?  Is God not capable of turning a hurricane out to sea instead of straight at New Orleans? 

The more I hear from Christians like you, the more convinced I become that you all think God is just some super powerful human who sweeps in to save the day when he feels like it.  This is not what omnipotence means!  It's so weird.  It's like you're trying to take bits and pieces from what you've learned in church, and coupled it with this vision of like... the nicest human being you can think of and meshed them together to make some sort of God-thing.  Do you understand that when this is what you're doing... you're making it up?   

Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: jetson on June 15, 2012, 09:39:15 PM
I take it you didn't actually read the site's argument.

QFT
Title: Re: Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...
Post by: Grimm on June 25, 2012, 12:22:49 PM
The question of "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" is not a new question.  It's just a new variation of a very old philosophical concept called "The Problem of Evil".  The reasoning behind this concept is weak at best and complete whining at worst.  In a nutshell, it says that since there is suffering in the world, God either doesn't know about it, doesn't care, or can't stop it.  If God doesn't know about it, then God is not all-knowing.  If God doesn't care, then God is not perfectly good.  If God can't stop it, then God is not all-powerful.  My response (in a nutshell) is: pain happens - deal with it.  It isn't God's job to eliminate suffering.  God created our universe and our reality.  God set the parameters of that universe so that life is possible.  God expects intelligent beings to choose good over evil, but that doesn't mean that every single one of us will do so.  As for natural disasters, they are acts of nature, not acts of God.  For natural disasters to not happen, the laws of physics would need to be completely different, and if they were, we wouldn't be here talking about it since life would not exist.

A bit late mentioning this:

Lola, the Problem of Evil isn't 'whining' - it's a serious question that comes out of the idea of a God who acts in the world right now.  If you do not claim that prayer to your deity is effective, then you don't have a Problem of Evil.

Your statement above implies a Deist position.  However, the Deist god does not respond to nor is it interested in prayer.  'Salvation' doesn't mean anything; the belief in the Son of God or even Sin as a  concept that divides a worshipper from God?  It has no bearing to a deist; the divine watchmaker does not care, or if he cares, doesn't do anything about it one way or another.

If you believe in Jesus, then you cannot be a Deist - Jesus tells you to pray, how to pray, why to pray, and informs you that God will respond to your prayers.

All that aside, the Problem of Evil isn't the thrust of WWGHA - see Jeff's post above.