whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: rcdrury on December 10, 2010, 11:59:19 PM

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 10, 2010, 11:59:19 PM
Re:  "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"

I am assuming that I am addressing the creator of subject video.  I am not going to debate the existence of God with you.  I am going to point out the total lack of logic and scientific principle in your arguments.  Your video is entirely hypocritical in that it accuses persons of faith of reaching their conclusions without rationale while you have reached your conclusions without any logical basis, objectivity, or application of the scientific method.

Many of your descriptive examples of "smart people" apply directly to me.  I hold both a bachelors and a masters degree, and I have been trained to think logically and rationally (I am an analyst both in vocation and by nature).  I don't think that my college education had a great deal to do with my attainment of  critical thinking skills, but that's beside the point; I certainly possess them.  I have been a teacher, a manager, an administrator, a government employee, a business owner, an account rep, an executive, a person working in the financial sector and in human resources, and a software developer.  I am currently the CEO of a moderately large (about 3,000 members) nonprofit entity.  I'd like to think I am a smart person and understand how the world works, but I must admit that it baffles me quite often.

So, let's examine some of the questions and points you make:

You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.  You discuss nothing regarding their reasoning; but it is fair to assume that virtually all doctors are highly intelligent, well-educated, rational, and have a thorough working grasp of the natural and biological sciences, along with an understanding of the scientific method.  It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief.  The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.


"Why won't God heal amputees?"

I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you.  I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.  I have not witnessed this personally, but I know and trust others who claim that they have.  Does this make it so?  Not necessarily; but that is certainly more compelling than the assertion that such phenomena do not exist just because one has not personally witnessed it.  In other words, they are correct or they are not; you have no knowledge whatsoever that they are incorrect, or that you are correct.  Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.


"We all know that amputated legs do not regenerate in response to prayer."

You do NOT know that; you ASSUME that merely because you have not witnessed it.  In fact, if there was a way to verify that this has never happened (which there isn't), it still does not eliminate the possibility.  To suggest that it does is a violation of the scientific method.


"Amputees get no miracles from God."

Says who?  I know of many amputees who have received miracles from God.  That doesn't mean that those miracles have been the regeneration of limbs.

As far as who suffers in this world and who does not, these are issues that have been discussed to death with the only resolution being that we do not understand God's ways; but I've seen much tremendous suffering resulting in wonderful things that could not have taken place without the preceding circumstances.


"Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?"

There are NO innocent people.  All have fallen short of God's glory and deserve far worse a fate than any we could imagine.  Transgressions of God's laws and standards are anything but trivial.  These are not little things just because you wish to think them so.

The things that you claim make no sense simply make no sense to you.  That doesn't make them "insane."  What really does not make sense is your insistence upon making purely subjective personal assertions, and claiming them to be objective innate observations.


"Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?"

Are you kidding?  Could you have possibly worded this question in a more loaded and biased manner? I have found nothing in the Bible that is not either naturally plausible or clearly not natural.  A major premise of God's word is that the very foundation of all existence is supernatural.  Again, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it false.  Just because you have no personal experience with this does not mean I haven't.


"...The Bible contains all sorts of information that is total nonsense from a scientific perspective."

From a scientific perspective, there is no such thing as "nonsense."  By definition, science holds that there is no such thing as a probability of either zero or one.  Nothing is to be considered either absolute or impossible.  You have clearly demonstrated your total lack of scientific understanding. 


"God did not create the world in six days..."

Says who?


"There was never a worldwide flood..."

Says who?


"Jonah did not live in a fish's stomach for three days..."

Says who?


"God did not create Adam from a handful of dust..."

Says who?


"Why would an all-knowing God write nonsense?"

Who says he did?  You've made these last five statements as fact, having absolutely no indication of whether or not they are accurate.  In your mind, they are forgone conclusions and any refuting them is "nonsense."  It is fair to presume that none of the acts to which you refer in these statements is possible in the natural, but they are all clearly possible in the supernatural. 


"Every 'answered prayer' is actually a coincidence.  All scientific evidence supports this conclusion."

I would suggest that there is absolutely NO scientific evidence whatsoever supporting this conclusion; and I would challenge you to provide a single example where there is physically verifiable data suggesting that prayer has had no influence on an occurance.  How would it be even possible for such evidence to exist; even more so, how would one verify prayer's non-effect?  Still another example of your inept scientific understanding.

Your assertion that everything makes sense only when one concludes the Bible to be untrue pales in comparison to the fact that if the Bible is true, all of its contents make perfect sense.  The only lapse in the Bible's rationale occurs when one limits it to natural boundaries and feeble human understanding.


"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: PostalGirl on December 11, 2010, 12:15:03 AM
For the record, you would do well in not hijacking someone else's topic in my Mailbag. That's inappropriate behavior on this forum. Thanks.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 12:19:13 AM
Apparently, I goofed somewhere.  Sorry; the infraction wasn't intentional, and in fact I'm still unaware of exactly what it was.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Dkit on December 11, 2010, 12:25:34 AM
BM
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: PostalGirl on December 11, 2010, 12:28:44 AM
You posted what is essentially a new topic within an existing topic. In the Mailbag. The Mailbag is not for new posts from our members. It's for mail and responses to the mail. Please refer to the sticky at the top of the Mailbag for more information.

In any case, you're in the right place now.
I suppose I might as well encourage you to read the posts here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?board=3.0) while I'm at it. It's got all the goodies for new members; they'll prevent misunderstandings like this in the future if you take a quick minute to familiarize yourself with all of it.

Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 12:32:28 AM
Thanks.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_A25 on December 11, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Re:  "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"

I am assuming that I am addressing the creator of subject video.

The creator of the video does not frequent the forum, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ashe on December 11, 2010, 12:38:10 AM
"God did not create the world in six days..."

Says who?


"There was never a worldwide flood..."

Says who?


"Jonah did not live in a fish's stomach for three days..."

Says who?


"God did not create Adam from a handful of dust..."

Says who?


Is your argument here that someone has to prove these things did not happen before we decide they did not?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Emily on December 11, 2010, 12:40:18 AM
I like the says who parts of this post.

You know who says: The lack of evidence, that's who. Of course we are not going to believe in a 6 day creation, a world wide flood or some dude living inside a whale because there is absolutely no evidence for it. I don't know about you but I don't want to be taken for a sucker. Until it's been proven I won't buy it.

There's a whole lot of "I don't knows", and well good for not knowing. I will take to road of assuming it hasn't happened, like the amputees being healed part. For example: I've seen videos of people whose leg seems to be regrowing right in front of the camera but a user here, named VoodooSixx, an atheist, was able to replicate those videos and showed how it can be faked. A lot of the videos I've seen are only parlor tricks. If an amputee's leg was grown back instantly, or even gradually, I am almost certain it would make headlines. So far... nothing.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ashe on December 11, 2010, 12:42:58 AM
"Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?"

There are NO innocent people.  All have fallen short of God's glory and deserve far worse a fate than any we could imagine.  Transgressions of God's laws and standards are anything but trivial.  These are not little things just because you wish to think them so.

This also bothers me, now that I'm rereading it.
What about the babies killed in the flood? What about the unborn children? Surely pregnant women drowned, too. What a terrible way to die, and to think it snuffed out life that didn't even have a chance to fully live.
These fetuses fell short of God's glory?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Emily on December 11, 2010, 12:49:15 AM
^^One thing that bothers me about god's laws are if he knows that we are going to break his laws he can at least budge a little and lighten up some of his standards. Sure, murdering someone is always bad, but it's absolutely impossible to to follow god's laws, with god sending down his son or not.

But god's reasoning is that we will seek Jesus for forgiveness, but we'd have to ask jesus for forgiveness every second of every day because according to god's laws we break his rules without even knowing it. God's a real hard ass, and he doesn't need to be. In his infinite glory he can become more easy going and allow us mere humans to live like he knew we would, and give us at least some fair shot of making it into heaven.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 11, 2010, 01:42:44 AM
welcome to the forum, rc.  I hope you have a long and pleasant visit here.  Most theists who come are shocked by the fact people do not accord their beliefs any reverence and stomp off in a huff or act out and get banned.   Hopefully you acclimate well.  On to your post...

You make some errors yourself.

You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.  ...The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.

That's what is called an argument from authority.  It is a fallacy.  You are essentially saying because the smart guys say it, it must be true.  But that is bad logic and a bad argument.

I would say that so many doctors believe in miracles is evidence of either someone misconstruing what doctors mean when they say "it's a miracle!" or evidence that the brain is poorly suited for many of the things we use it for.  See my sig below.


I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you. 

Baloney. We both know amputees don't get healed.  You are just being argumentative. Be honest instead.  That will garner more respect.

I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.

We both know those are baloney.  They are not documented.  When you hear a claim - even one far less outlandish than "yhwh heals amputees" - you need some kind of evidence to support it.  That you accept anecdotal evidence suggests that this was something you would like to believe and you are not trying very hard to be skeptical.   That's fine.  That is your right.  Just don't try to make it seem as if we are being irrational for mocking you for it.

You would have more weight if you had some rigorous documentation.  That is evidence that counts.  The question you should always ask is "how do you know?"  How do you know those people saw what they say?  How do you know they were not tricked?  How do you know they are not deceiving you?  What is more likely, that a person regrew a limb or the people you were talking to embellished (or outright lied) about what they saw?  Again, be honest.

Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.

Really?  Saying amputees do not miraculously regrow lost limbs is "pure  unsubstantiated supposition"?   That's rich. What would be more fair to say?

"We all know that amputated legs do not regenerate in response to prayer."

You do NOT know that; you ASSUME that merely because you have not witnessed it.

Baloney.  You are just being argumentative again. If it happens it is unbelievably rare and happens only in remote, ass-backward places.  Coincidence?


Says who?  I know of many amputees who have received miracles from God. 

Be more specific.  What were the miracles?  Who were the people?  How do you know?  Until I get some evidence, I have to call baloney.

As far as who suffers in this world and who does not, these are issues that have been discussed to death with the only resolution being that we do not understand God's ways;

Then you don't know your bible very well. The bible deals with the problem of suffering - sometimes called the problem of evil - in five or 6 ways.  An opaque and incomprehensible deity is just one of them. Why bother using an opaque and incomprehensible deity as an explanation for anything?  If it acts in unpredictable ways, how can you be sure it is not just random variation?  And why would anyone want to worship an opaque and incomprehensible god?  That is like my 9th grade girlfriend who would get pissed and give me the silent treatment but not tell me why.


There are NO innocent people.  All have fallen short of God's glory and deserve far worse a fate than any we could imagine. 

A atheists have a much healthier and kinder view of people.

How is it that people are so hideously terrible, unworthy of anything but unimaginable and unspeakable retribution, yet whenever you god botherers get on the topic of abortion you are all about how precious human life is and how murdering innocent babies is so terrible.  Make up your minds.


The things that you claim make no sense simply make no sense to you.  That doesn't make them "insane."

I agree with that.  Weird.


What really does not make sense is your insistence upon making purely subjective personal assertions, and claiming them to be objective innate observations.

Oh, the irony.

"Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?"

Are you kidding?  Could you have possibly worded this question in a more loaded and biased manner? I have found nothing in the Bible that is not either naturally plausible or clearly not natural.

A talking snake.
Solid colored goats producing stripped offspring because they screwed within sight of stripped sticks.
A man living inside a whale or large fish for 3 days.
a man blowing a horn and demolishing a city.
the nile turning to blood.
magicians turning their staves into snakes.
zombies taking over Jerusalem.
a woman turning into a pillar of salt.
a talking donkey.

And you are the one all up in arms about the point of the site being irrational and illogical?

A major premise of God's word is that the very foundation of all existence is supernatural.  Again, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it false. 

And until I get better evidence than the say-so of you or some iron age goat herder, I will think that is a preposterous idea.  How. Do. You. Know?


From a scientific perspective, there is no such thing as "nonsense."  ...You have clearly demonstrated your total lack of scientific understanding. 

I like the way you book end that sentence with irony.

"God did not create the world in six days..."
Says who?
"There was never a worldwide flood..."
Says who?
"Jonah did not live in a fish's stomach for three days..."
Says who?
"God did not create Adam from a handful of dust..."
Says who?

Now you are off the deep end.  You are getting into the realm of believing anything that cannot be disproved.  That is dangerous territory, man.  Once you go there, how do you draw a line?  There are no werewolves.  Says who?  No such thing as leprechauns.  Says who?  Mermaids are fiction.  Says who?  See where that leads?  Once you open the door to that sort of thing, any hairy monster can walk through and you have no basis for saying it cannot.  You have no basis for saying it is ridiculous.


Who says he did?  You've made these last five statements as fact, having absolutely no indication of whether or not they are accurate.

That is not strictly true.  Some pretty good science shows us the universe had been around for, what, 2 billion years?, before there was such a thing as a "day"[1].   

Geology indicates there is no evidence whatsoever of a worldwide flood.  We have a member here who is an actual geologist.  I do not recommend you argue the point with her, as it will only make you look bad.

And as for Jonah, you are just being argumentative.  Try being honest.


...they are all clearly possible in the supernatural. 

Myeah.  So are vampires.  Fortunately, that does not make Edward the sparkly vampire real or even plausible. 


I would suggest that there is absolutely NO scientific evidence whatsoever supporting this conclusion;

Then you would be wrong.

I would challenge you to provide a single example where there is physically verifiable data suggesting that prayer has had no influence on an occurance.

My Babe Ruth batting average.  I prayed before every at bat one year.  Same BA as the previous.  There were better studies done: 
Prayer does nothing (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html).  In fact, in some cases, prayer made the outcomes for the subjects worse.
This site (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567) has the actual study.

 
How would it be even possible for such evidence to exist; even more so, how would one verify prayer's non-effect?  Still another example of your inept scientific understanding.

Never took a college level statistics course, have you?  You could do a design of experiments or a multivariate regression to understand what variables accounted for what percentage of the effects.


"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.

Please explain this further.  On the surface, if taken literally, this sounds preposterous.  But I am curious to know more.  I would also like to know more specifics on your degrees, if that is not too personal.  What fields and what schools?

 1. provided the writers of the OT meant a revolution of this planet.  I think that is a safe bet since the hebrews had no clue there were other planets
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 09:46:09 AM

Is your argument here that someone has to prove these things did not happen before we decide they did not?


No; my point is that these are declarations that the author admittedly cannot substantiate, yet they appear to be stated as irrefutable fact.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 09:59:47 AM
^^One thing that bothers me about god's laws are if he knows that we are going to break his laws he can at least budge a little and lighten up some of his standards. Sure, murdering someone is always bad, but it's absolutely impossible to to follow god's laws, with god sending down his son or not.

But god's reasoning is that we will seek Jesus for forgiveness, but we'd have to ask jesus for forgiveness every second of every day because according to god's laws we break his rules without even knowing it. God's a real hard ass, and he doesn't need to be. In his infinite glory he can become more easy going and allow us mere humans to live like he knew we would, and give us at least some fair shot of making it into heaven.


Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Aaron123 on December 11, 2010, 10:11:25 AM
Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

Now you're just preaching.  We've all heard this before.  Some of us even belived in it at one point.  We don't now.  We're not impressed with this capsule summery of christian theology.  Some of us don't even think there was a historical Jesus of some sort.  You need to prove that Jesus did exist and that he was the son of god.  Otherwise, all you have are baseless assertions.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 10:14:16 AM

Is your argument here that someone has to prove these things did not happen before we decide they did not?


No; my point is that these are declarations that the author admittedly cannot substantiate, yet they appear to be stated as irrefutable fact.

Lacking any evidence of god's existence. Or that god heals amputees, or that anything in your religion is true. The only logical position to take is non-belief. If you had even the slightest bit of skill in logic and critical thinking you should know this. You also wouldn't be committing as many blatant fallacies. You also didn't respond to any other points rather noticeably.

Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

So Jesus 'sacrificed' himself, which really wasn't a sacrifice since he's god himself. He did this to pay a debt of sin that was owed to himself. He was both god and completely a man. He had no tools available to him that we do not have (except for the divine powers and ability to create miracles,right?) And he gave us the chance to be redeemed through Christ. Even though he purposefully set standards so high that it's almost impossible to live up to them. Standards which not only did he set, but since he created us knows that we cannot reach.

Oh yeah. I don't know how I ever could have doubted your obvious skills at logic and thinking.

Seriously, is this all that you can do? Even for theists this is lame thinking. Also this is simply a bare assertion with no backing behind it. No intelligent thought put into the argument, and clearly no introspection on your part.

Let me give you a quick piece of advice, preaching is against the forum rules. Everyone here is expected to back up everything that they say. If you can't do that, which seems to be the case, then you won't last very long and will get smacked down hard by everyone here.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 10:24:58 AM
That's what is called an argument from authority.  It is a fallacy.  You are essentially saying because the smart guys say it, it must be true.  But that is bad logic and a bad argument.


No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_022 on December 11, 2010, 10:26:25 AM
Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

rcdrury, you are just preaching here.  Preaching is against the forum rules.  If you have not already done so, please read those rules, which you can find here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0)

All of the rules are important, but the one you should be paying particular attention to at the moment (since it's the one you're breaking) is this one:

"Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against them."

Thank you,
Twenty-two.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 10:35:11 AM
Now you're just preaching.  We've all heard this before.  Some of us even belived in it at one point.  We don't now.  We're not impressed with this capsule summery of christian theology.  Some of us don't even think there was a historical Jesus of some sort.  You need to prove that Jesus did exist and that he was the son of god.  Otherwise, all you have are baseless assertions.


No; this was a direct response to Emily's comments regarding God's reasoning, actions, and motives.  While she may not believe in God's existence, her statements were made within the premise of His existence.  I responded likewise.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 10:37:13 AM
That's what is called an argument from authority.  It is a fallacy.  You are essentially saying because the smart guys say it, it must be true.  But that is bad logic and a bad argument.


No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

From you: "You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.  You discuss nothing regarding their reasoning; but it is fair to assume that virtually all doctors are highly intelligent, well-educated, rational, and have a thorough working grasp of the natural and biological sciences, along with an understanding of the scientific method.  It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief.  The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles."

You are saying that doctors believe in miracles. Doctors are smart, therefore we should take their word for it. Doctors being intelligent has nothing to do with it. Intelligent people are still capable of being stupid at times. Especially in areas outside of their expertise, which miracles are. This is a fallacy. Doctors are not experts on miracles (no one is) so the fact that they believe in miracles has no bearing on whether they should be believed. The relevant point is whether or not there is evidence of miracles. Which there isn't unless you theists have been holding out on everyone else. Also experiences do not count as evidence. This is, again, something that you should be well-aware of.  Which leads me to one of two conclusions. Either you are lying about your education, or you are attempting to be deliberately misleading here. Neither of which will work very well here.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 11, 2010, 10:39:27 AM
No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

What is the name of the course in med school where doctors are trained in the functioning of the supernatural?

Also, comparing medicine to airplane mechanics is false equivocation. Anything that goes wrong with a plane is mechanically possible to fix and diagnose. There are never things that go wrong in airplane mechanics where the knowledge does not exist on how to diagnose or repair. That is not so with the human body. Cancer research is ongoing, for instance. So, a doctor can honestly say "the definate explanation for why this cancer has behaved in such and such a way does not exist", and that certainly does not qualify a doctor to say, "therefore a magic sky man done fixed it".

A doctor's opinion on a subject they do not understand is just that, an unsubstantiated opinion. When an expert defaults to "magic", it is an indication the experience has fallen outside of their ability and skill set. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 11, 2010, 10:52:09 AM
No;

Yes. 

I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

I understand what you are trying to say, but as Ambassador Pony pointed out, with medicine and human physiology (and the supernatural), it is not as cut and dry.  You are making an unsupportable argument.  You are also talking about anecdotes, not data.  What doctors know about medicine (et al) is based on data, not a rare personal experience.  I thought we already got that out of the way when you were talking about knowing people who knew people (who knew people...) who were recipients of miracles?

 A finance guy, huh?  No wonder magic seems like a plausible explanation to you.


Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Aaron123 on December 11, 2010, 10:57:30 AM
No; this was a direct response to Emily's comments regarding God's reasoning, actions, and motives.  While she may not believe in God's existence, her statements were made within the premise of His existence.  I responded likewise.

All you did was regurgulate standard christian theology.  That's considered preaching.

And I noticed you didn't address the parts about it being baseless assertations.  You need to demostrate that any of that stuff actually happened.  Don't just preach "the good news" and expect us to swallow it.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 11:02:59 AM
Let me give you a quick piece of advice, preaching is against the forum rules. Everyone here is expected to back up everything that they say. If you can't do that, which seems to be the case, then you won't last very long and will get smacked down hard by everyone here.



There was no preaching in my post.  As I stated in my last post, I was was responding directly to another post (presumably from an atheist) that made direct reference to God's actions. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 11:08:26 AM
Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

rcdrury, you are just preaching here.  Preaching is against the forum rules.  If you have not already done so, please read those rules, which you can find here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0)

All of the rules are important, but the one you should be paying particular attention to at the moment (since it's the one you're breaking) is this one:

"Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against them."

Thank you,
Twenty-two.


Let me try this once more:

I was directly responding to a post that was written within the assumption of God's existence.  If my post was a violation, so was the one to which I was responding.  If an atheist has the right to say "God didn't...," I have the right to respond with "God did..." within the same context.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Positiveaob on December 11, 2010, 11:13:19 AM
Many of your descriptive examples of "smart people" apply directly to me.

...


No need to post your resume on-line for us.  We are all for the most part educated here.  If you think you're a smart guy, show us with your posts, not your resume.

Quote
You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly. 

Could you show me where it states this?  I'm being serious, maybe the website states this but I dont remember reading that anywhere.  It's complete bullshit if it does state this.  If 3 out of 4 doctors believe this, then the medical establishment is in trouble.  Luckily, I'm quite confident this isnt the actual case.

Quote
It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief. 

Not reasonable to assume this at all.  There are alot of people who believe in weird stuff out there, doesnt make it true.

Quote
The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.

Appeal to authority, and not even an accurate one.  "3 out of 4 doctors" do NOT agree on any such thing. 

Quote
"Why won't God heal amputees?"

I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you.  I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.  I have not witnessed this personally, but I know and trust others who claim that they have. 

This is BS.  Show me a substantiated case of such a thing happening.  That's like saying "I know people who have traveled back in time, or made themselves invisible by snapping their fingers".  It's BS.

Quote
Does this make it so?  Not necessarily; but that is certainly more compelling than the assertion that such phenomena do not exist just because one has not personally witnessed it.  In other words, they are correct or they are not; you have no knowledge whatsoever that they are incorrect, or that you are correct.  Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.

An amputee growing back a limb would be major news throughout the world. It would be studied extensively by those same "learned men of science" in the medical community because the implications could affect our treatment of amputees everywhere.  It would certainly be published in a medical journal. 

So yes, it's absolutely safe to say no amputee has ever grown back a limb spontaneously.

I'm gonna skip ahead a bit, because the rest is just more of the same.

Quote
"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.

Really, what did he look like?  You understand of course (as such an educated person) that if you really are seeing people that other people cant see and hearing voices that other people cant hear, that you are manifesting overt signs of schizophrenia, do you not?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Positiveaob on December 11, 2010, 11:16:07 AM
No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

Show me the data regarding physicians.  And stop bragging about how smart you are.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 11, 2010, 11:18:02 AM
Ya, drury's post was two things:

1) Prompted by a question that seemed to allow / assume a wack of unsubstantiated assumptions.

2) A response full of unsubstantiated assumptions.

His response was "in kind", and, I think, fair (and, now fair game).

Other members have now directly challenged those assumptions he (and Emily, theoretically) is making, and he can either support or retract. I think it is in line with the OP to have the discussion brought up by the post.

Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you? 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 11:18:28 AM
Hi rcdrury,

I'm curious, have you read our rules and etiquette guides yet?


Eleven.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Positiveaob on December 11, 2010, 11:19:35 AM
I was directly responding to a post that was written within the assumption of God's existence.  If my post was a violation, so was the one to which I was responding.  If an atheist has the right to say "God didn't...," I have the right to respond with "God did..." within the same context.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.

You cant substantiate something NOT happening.  You can just say with reasonable certainty that when there is no evidence that something happened, and there should be plenty of evidence that it DID happen, it probably did not.

I also cant substantiate that leprechauns dont exist, that my house is not haunted by ghosts, that a martian worship is orbiting around the other side of the sun.  I can just call BS when an extraordinary claim is made without any backing from extraordinary evidence.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 11:34:11 AM
.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.

Then you haven't read much. When asked for evidence, we provide it. We expect people to be able to provide it when asked. It would of course be too much to do it for every single claim that;s made. But when that claim is challenged and you are asked to pony up, you have to do that.

Also, I notice that you're not actually responding to any of the points made against you or to your OP. Neither to Screwtape, nor to mine, nor to others except to the one to Emily (which can basically be summed up as 'generic mindless christian respone #12) Did you have any points to make that are actually deserving of contemplation?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Emily on December 11, 2010, 12:16:12 PM

I was directly responding to a post that was written within the assumption of God's existence.  If my post was a violation, so was the one to which I was responding.  If an atheist has the right to say "God didn't...," I have the right to respond with "God did..." within the same context.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.

OK, this is in reply to my post. You do have the right to say god did (whatever). You are granted that right as long as you can prove it. So far...nothing.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 12:24:26 PM
You are saying that doctors believe in miracles. Doctors are smart, therefore we should take their word for it.


No, no, no!  I'm simply stating, yet again, that doctors are the most qualified experts available on assessing medical matters, and that a documented substantial majority (per the video creator) of them have encountered specific medical, biological, and/or anatomical occurrences that they feel defy medical and natural possibility.  Are they correct?  I don't know; but they are probably far more qualified to make that call than any of us who are not physicians.  While their statements are not beyond scrutiny, they deserve to not be so easily dismissed. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Emily on December 11, 2010, 12:32:58 PM
I'm simply stating, yet again, that doctors are the most qualified experts available on assessing medical matters, and that a documented substantial majority (per the video creator) of them have encountered specific medical, biological, and/or anatomical occurrences that they feel defy medical and natural possibility.

What doctors make this claim for something defying medical and natural possibility.If it is documented then you can support this claim of yours.

Quote
While their statements are not beyond scrutiny, they deserve to not be so easily dismissed.

Getting second opinions is a good thing.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 12:37:46 PM
Many of your descriptive examples of "smart people" apply directly to me.

...


No need to post your resume on-line for us.  We are all for the most part educated here.  If you think you're a smart guy, show us with your posts, not your resume.

Quote
You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly. 

Could you show me where it states this?  I'm being serious, maybe the website states this but I dont remember reading that anywhere.  It's complete bullshit if it does state this.  If 3 out of 4 doctors believe this, then the medical establishment is in trouble.  Luckily, I'm quite confident this isnt the actual case.

Quote
It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief. 

Not reasonable to assume this at all.  There are alot of people who believe in weird stuff out there, doesnt make it true.

Quote
The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.

Appeal to authority, and not even an accurate one.  "3 out of 4 doctors" do NOT agree on any such thing. 

Quote
"Why won't God heal amputees?"

I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you.  I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.  I have not witnessed this personally, but I know and trust others who claim that they have. 

This is BS.  Show me a substantiated case of such a thing happening.  That's like saying "I know people who have traveled back in time, or made themselves invisible by snapping their fingers".  It's BS.

Quote
Does this make it so?  Not necessarily; but that is certainly more compelling than the assertion that such phenomena do not exist just because one has not personally witnessed it.  In other words, they are correct or they are not; you have no knowledge whatsoever that they are incorrect, or that you are correct.  Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.

An amputee growing back a limb would be major news throughout the world. It would be studied extensively by those same "learned men of science" in the medical community because the implications could affect our treatment of amputees everywhere.  It would certainly be published in a medical journal. 

So yes, it's absolutely safe to say no amputee has ever grown back a limb spontaneously.

I'm gonna skip ahead a bit, because the rest is just more of the same.

Quote
"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.

Really, what did he look like?  You understand of course (as such an educated person) that if you really are seeing people that other people cant see and hearing voices that other people cant hear, that you are manifesting overt signs of schizophrenia, do you not?



You obviously didn't see the video.  I was in no way touting my education.  If you had seen the subject video, you'd have heard the ridiculous references to education and how it should apply to how one assesses the issue of faith.  Regardless of whether one is an atheist or theist, it is obvious that this guy is an idiot with no understanding of logical application.  I was merely responding to points in the video.  As far as references to my areas of expertise, I was merely illustrating that I do what I do, and I know more about it than most any layman on the planet; the same holds true for physicians or anyone else in a highly specialized field.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 12:45:10 PM
Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you?


Nope.  The intent of my original post was to do no more than to counter the illogical approach in the video.  From his YouTube page, it appeared that the creator of the video was an active member of this community.  Had I realized that this is apparently not the case, I probably wouldn't have posted in the first place.  Would I have a desire to discuss my claims further?  Sure; but it's been made clear to me that that would be a violation of forum rules.

Peace
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: One Above All on December 11, 2010, 12:53:53 PM
Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you?


Nope. 

Then you are doing no more than preaching and will be banned if you don't start providing evidence
In short: Evidence or GTFO
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 01:02:43 PM
You are saying that doctors believe in miracles. Doctors are smart, therefore we should take their word for it.


No, no, no!  I'm simply stating, yet again, that doctors are the most qualified experts available on assessing medical matters, and that a documented substantial majority (per the video creator) of them have encountered specific medical, biological, and/or anatomical occurrences that they feel defy medical and natural possibility.  Are they correct?  I don't know; but they are probably far more qualified to make that call than any of us who are not physicians.  While their statements are not beyond scrutiny, they deserve to not be so easily dismissed.

No, that is not what you are stating. The video says that they believe in miracles. It does not say that they believe that amputees have regrown limbs, or that they have encountered people being spontanteously born. Just that they believe that miracles happen, which could mean anything. Again, I will quote you.

"You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly." and "It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief."

There is nothing that says that the miracles they think they have experienced are medical in nature. You are making this up, and are now trying to change your story after being called on it. All this says is that they think miracles happen. And yes, their statements are easily dismissed if they have no evidence. That is how reason and logic works. The doctors can claim miracle all they want, but until they show it, it has no more bearing than anything else. Again, this is something you should well know if you deserved even half of the credentials you claimed to possess. 

Again, to quote you:
"The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles."

Again, no it isn't compelling. If they had evidence it would be compelling, which they don't. You are, and were, saying that we should believe in miracles simply because doctors do, and doctors are smart. This is wrong, we should only start to consider miracles if there is evidence that such things exist.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 01:04:23 PM
Sure; but it's been made clear to me that that would be a violation of forum rules.

Maybe you didn't see my last post (always possible), so I'll politely ask again..

Have you read our rules and etiquette guide yet?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 01:04:43 PM
What doctors make this claim for something defying medical and natural possibility.If it is documented then you can support this claim of yours.



It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 01:05:22 PM
Then you are doing no more than preaching and will be banned if you don't start providing evidence
Just a friendly reminder, the staff will decide who is banned.


Eleven.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Emily on December 11, 2010, 01:09:10 PM
It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!

I am sorry. I might have missed the claim in the video about doctors making some claim about something defying medical and natural possibilities. Can you help me out. Here's the transcript from the video;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm)

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 01:11:42 PM
Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you?


Nope.  The intent of my original post was to do no more than to counter the illogical approach in the video.  From his YouTube page, it appeared that the creator of the video was an active member of this community.  Had I realized that this is apparently not the case, I probably wouldn't have posted in the first place.  Would I have a desire to discuss my claims further?  Sure; but it's been made clear to me that that would be a violation of forum rules.

Peace

You haven't countered anything. Your argument has been torn to pieces already because it's so patently ridiculous. There are multiple fallacies, base assertions with no backing, misrepresentations of logic and critical thought. It is quite seriously devoid of any intellectual or intelligent thought.Then you refuse to respond to those same posts that point out your failings, misunderstandings, and faulty logic. Aside from being a waste of our time, this is also cowardly and dishonest.

It is only a violation to discuss your claims if you refuse to back them up, which you apparently can't. And have in fact, just now refused to do. If you are unwilling to follow the rules that you agreed to when you signed up, then feel free to go on your way.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 01:13:38 PM
There is nothing that says that the miracles they think they have experienced are medical in nature. You are making this up, and are now trying to change your story after being called on it.


The references in the video were clearly to medical miracles, and it appeared to be strongly implied that such miracles were the basis for the doctors' belief in miracles.  Perhaps my assumption was a stretch, but I don't think so.  Anyway, you now hopefully understand where I was coming from.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_A25 on December 11, 2010, 01:17:24 PM
It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!

I am sorry. I might have missed the claim in the video about doctors making some claim about something defying medical and natural possibilities. Can you help me out. Here's the transcript from the video;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm)

I'm with Emily on this, rcdrury.

I'd like to know exactly what was said to lead you to this conclusion. Please take a moment to point out exactly what it is you are talking about.

-A25
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 01:22:39 PM
It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!

I am sorry. I might have missed the claim in the video about doctors making some claim about something defying medical and natural possibilities. Can you help me out. Here's the transcript from the video;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm)

I'm with Emily on this, rcdrury.

I'd like to know exactly what was said to lead you to this conclusion. Please take a moment to point out exactly what it is you are talking about.

-A25


Answered in my response just prior to your post.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: One Above All on December 11, 2010, 01:31:07 PM
Then you are doing no more than preaching and will be banned if you don't start providing evidence
Just a friendly reminder, the staff will decide who is banned.


Eleven.

Sorry, Eleven, I went kinda overboard on my reply
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 01:33:48 PM
Sorry, Eleven, I went kinda overboard on my reply
It's cool. A friendly reminder is just that.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 01:35:07 PM
Maybe you didn't see my last post (always possible), so I'll politely ask again..

Have you read our rules and etiquette guide yet?

Maybe this'll be a case of third time lucky..


So how about answering my question, rcdrury?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_A25 on December 11, 2010, 01:46:18 PM
Answered in my response just prior to your post.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any quotes or links to the video(s) in question or time references within certain videos that answer Emily's question.

I thought that my use of the word "exactly" would indicate to you that I want to read or hear the words that you read or heard that led you to say the things you are saying about them. Until then, I consider this question unanwered.

Thanks,

-A25
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 11, 2010, 02:13:14 PM
Positiveaob:
Quote
Quote
You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.
  Could you show me where it states this?  I'm being serious, maybe the website states this but I dont remember reading that anywhere. 
The 10 questions video states:
Quote
According to a recent poll, 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles on earth right now.
I know more about this than I want to. I was puzzled by it when I first read it and tried to find out where it came from. 

My unfortunate conclusion after investigating it was that Marshall Brain (he's the author of the written and video WWGHA material, rcdrury, in case you don't know) was trying to bullshit people with dodgy statistics - particularly since the evidence Brain supplies in suppport of the statistic turns out to be the Press Release pertaining to the survey, not the survey itself. Very poor.

In pursuing the actual data I e-mailed the Theological Seminary which commissioned the survey and the research company which conducted it, and a journalist who wrote an article about it (obsessive, me?) - none could provide the original data, all they had was the PR release.

My little piece of detective work started here. (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7988.msg183179#msg183179) It continues to the end of the thread, interspersed with a separate strand which you'll have to scroll over.

Gnu.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 02:15:22 PM
Answered in my response just prior to your post.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any quotes or links to the video(s) in question or time references within certain videos that answer Emily's question.

I thought that my use of the word "exactly" would indicate to you that I want to read or hear the words that you read or heard that led you to say the things you are saying about them. Until then, I consider this question unanwered.

Thanks,

-A25


Nice try, Twenty-five.

By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling, it is quite apparent that I'm unwelcome here.  That's cool.  I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_A25 on December 11, 2010, 02:23:51 PM
By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling, it is quite apparent that I'm unwelcome here.  That's cool.  I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

If you are so confident in your reasoning then I don't know why you can't debate the people here. You should have no trouble dispatching our arguments.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.

My idea of "intellectual dishonesty" is for someone to come to this forum and make claims about the videos that are suspect[1] and then refusing to support those claims when pressed.

I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

You've got the Holy Spirit on your side, so you have an unfair advantage over us, right? Why not stick around and demonstrate your superior logic?

-A25
 1. Edited to reflect Gnu's post above
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 02:28:08 PM
By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling, it is quite apparent that I'm unwelcome here.  That's cool.  I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

If you are so confident in your reasoning then I don't know why you can't debate the people here. You should have no trouble dispatching our arguments.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.

My idea of "intellectual dishonesty" is for someone to come to this forum and make claims about the videos that are not true and then refusing to support those claims when pressed.

I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

You've got the Holy Spirit on your side, so you have an unfair advantage over us, right? Why not stick around and demonstrate your superior logic?

-A25



Wow; it's obvious that you very carefully read my post.  So, why are you still trying to prompt a debate?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Aaron123 on December 11, 2010, 02:29:13 PM
The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

I don't think any atheists here have a holier-than-thou attitude.  Yet, the one theist on this thread does.  Why is that?

If you want to feel welcome here, I suggust you drop the attitude.  Calling us "pea-brains" makes it sounds like we're dealing with a ten-years old.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 02:31:31 PM
By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling,
I'm just asking you a simple question in a polite fashion. Why are you so reluctant to answer it?

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_A25 on December 11, 2010, 02:33:05 PM
Wow; it's obvious that you very carefully read my post.  So, why are you still trying to prompt a debate?

Why are you still posting if you don't want a debate?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: rcdrury on December 11, 2010, 02:36:06 PM
The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

I don't think any atheists here have a holier-than-thou attitude.  Yet, the one theist on this thread does.  Why is that?

If you want to feel welcome here, I suggust you drop the attitude.  Calling us "pea-brains" makes it sounds like we're dealing with a ten-years old.



To the best of my knowledge, I called no one here a "pea-brain."  I have been repeatedly informed that that individual is not a member of this forum.  Other than minimally responding to the mostly hostile posts directed at me, I'm not really even participating.  While I have no intention of offending or making myself unwelcome, I have no particular interest in being welcomed here.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 02:38:45 PM
rcdrury is now banned for trolling.


Eleven.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_A25 on December 11, 2010, 02:42:32 PM
Well done, Eleven. Apparently, rcdrury had no purpose here other than being a jerk, so I see no reason to humor that kind of nonsense.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 02:45:06 PM
Quite. And I tried to be nice[1], too.
 1. In context of how mean I am usually
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Aaron123 on December 11, 2010, 02:46:03 PM
I know he's banned now, but just to get in one last word...


To the best of my knowledge, I called no one here a "pea-brain." 


You said:

Quote
I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.


So you're calling the rest of us pea-brains by proxy, at the very least.


Quote
Other than minimally responding to the mostly hostile posts directed at me, I'm not really even participating.  While I have no intention of offending or making myself unwelcome, I have no particular interest in being welcomed here.

How very christ-like of you.   &)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on December 11, 2010, 02:49:12 PM
The references in the video were clearly to medical miracles, and it appeared to be strongly implied that such miracles were the basis for the doctors' belief in miracles.  Perhaps my assumption was a stretch, but I don't think so.  Anyway, you now hopefully understand where I was coming from.

A doctor who believes in miracles is one that FIRST believes in God.  A doctor who does not believe in miracles is one that FIRST doesn't believe in God.  If it were the other way around, then that would mean they all STARTED as atheists and converted to Christianity after they saw those things take place.  That's not what happens at all.  So, its not that they "see" things they consider unexplainable and THEN believe in miracles.  They believe in them first, then think they "see" them after. 

ALL doctors will see things that they can not medically explain in their lifetime.  Only the smart ones will say "I don't know why that happened, but I also don't know everything".   The dimwits will say "It's a miracle!" 

Also, you do understand that the whole miracle thing goes both ways right?  There are many situations (I would venture to say an equal amount) where a patient goes from perfectly healthy to "miraculously" dead.  Would you venture a guess as to whether or not the Christan doctors call those things miracles?  Are those acts of God as well?  I wonder if you ask 1000 doctors if they have ever seen something like that, would they attribute it to their loving God?    I doubt it.  Why?  Because those doctors who believe in God think God is all good, all loving, and would never attribute that stuff to Him. 

Long story short... a Christian doctor would probably call a person who spontaneously recovered from cancer a "miracle patient".  But that same doctor would probably just shrug his shoulders in bewilderment over a person who spontaneously dies from a coughing fit.  I'm the guy who shrugs his shoulders at both.  That's a lot more honest, don't you think? 

When I first started out in my career, I used to think doctors were the smartest of the smart.  But if there is one thing that I have learned over 11 years of practicing physical therapy, it's that most doctors don't know shit either.  They are just really good at acting like they do. 

BTW, I don't believe in miracles.  And I've seen several things I can't explain... both positive and negative.  Why don't you ask those 3 out of 4 doctors if they've ever seen things that made them question God's great wisdom?  I bet it's over 95%.  The smart ones will actually take those lessons to heart.  The dimwits won't. 

Edit.  CRAP the banhammer got him first. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_011 on December 11, 2010, 02:56:13 PM
Edit.  CRAP the banhammer got him first.
Sorry about that. But it's ok, guests can still view the Mailbag.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 11, 2010, 02:57:58 PM
I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.

You're just brimming with "intellectually honesty," here. Impressive critical thinking skills, you've got.



Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 03:01:05 PM
What I always find fascinating about the mentality behind people like him is that he just finished claiming that he's only here to discuss the video and the initial post. Yet he didn't respond to anyone who made comments about or criticized said post. Even when I repeatedly called his attention to it he refused to. Then continued to assert that it was all that he wanted to discuss. There's some very interesting thought-flows that occur in the minds of people like him. It's a pity he didn't last that long. It would have made an interesting study.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 11, 2010, 03:08:48 PM
Take heart, Alzael: there's plenty more where he came from. And if we're lucky he'll create a sock account and we can start the whole thing over again!
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 03:49:22 PM
Take heart, Alzael: there's plenty more where he came from. And if we're lucky he'll create a sock account and we can start the whole thing over again!

Funny, I had been thinking the same thing.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_020 on December 11, 2010, 05:28:54 PM
It's a pity he didn't last that long. It would have made an interesting study.

I am in complete agreement.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Jim on December 11, 2010, 05:45:35 PM
We could have put him, Daw, and Mabus together in a locked room to see what would happen.  Shucks.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Historicity on December 11, 2010, 10:20:42 PM
I apologize for not noticing this thread earlier.  But there is nothing on TV on Saturday nights.

Here is something from RCDrury that you all seem to have skipped:
Quote
From a scientific perspective, there is no such thing as "nonsense."  By definition, science holds that there is no such thing as a probability of either zero or one.  Nothing is to be considered either absolute or impossible.  You have clearly demonstrated your total lack of scientific understanding. 
A digression before I go to the point:  Don't you just love that little weasel word phrase "By definition"?  It usually doesn't mean anything.

But I'm sure this crowd is familiar with Sir Karl Popper's principle of Falsifiability?  One part of that is the idea that theories are not proved true, but that all the competing theories have been proven false.   

Therefore in science there is indeed such as thing as a probability of 0. 

Karl Popper also gave a proposition, there are humans who are not immortal.  It has a probability of 1 since there are humans who have already died.

Conclusion:  Whatever RCBrady ever learned about the scientific method, all he knows of it now is woo.


As for the 3 out of 4 doctors who smoke Chesterfields for mellow, soothing tobacco experience, I have to fault Marshall Brain for a lack of due diligence.  And I thank Emily for pointing me to the text.

MB's source was an article in www.wnd.com (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42061)  aka World Net Daily, aka World Nut Daily.  This is a site run by Joseph Farah,  a former editor of 2 newspapers that went bankrupt.  He claims his site is the leading conservative site.  He is a co-author of one of Rush Limbaugh's books.  He says the 2 most important people in the history of conservatism are simply Ronald Reagan and Rush Limbaugh.  (Buckley?  Rand?)   He is a Birther.  Not has been.  He comes back to it again and again.  He accused people of trying to hijack the Tea Party movement and finished the article by plugging his book, The Tea Party Manifesto.  Chuck Norris is a columnist there.

When I read the article (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42061) it said:

Quote
... 74% of doctors believe miracles have occurred in the past, and 73% believe they can occur today.
...
Two-thirds encourage their patients to pray. Of those physicians, 5% did so for God to answer their prayers, 32% for psychological benefits and 63% for both reasons.
...
37% physicians believe the Bible's miracle stories are literally true, while 50% believe they are metaphorically true.
Wait a minute.  Is it 74% or 37%? 

Or is it 67%?   Note that 5% of those just say that it bucks up the patient with positive thinking.  68% of those say it works practical magick[1].  Let's do some math,

2/3 * 0.67 = 0.45.  That would mean 45% believe in the miracle of prayer.  If 74% believe in "miracles" then how did the survey define the word?

Remember, that on the face of it we just have a journalist's popular retelling.  Or is there another possibility?  Could this be yet another example of the argumentim ex ano[2]???

World Nut Daily cites 2 sources:  A Jewish seminary's institute and HCD Research.

You can look at the seminary's site to search for "statistical survey":
http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/jtsa?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=statistical+survey&btnG=Search (http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/jtsa?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=statistical+survey&btnG=Search)

There is no survey of doctors.  The only statistical survey they have is "Gender Variation in the Careers of Conservative Rabbis: A Survey".

You can't search HCD Research.  You have to become a paying client.  They do marketing research such as:
Quote
Research Methodologies
    * NetClassRX™ 
    * HCD AdverTest™ 
    * Banner Ad Testing
    * HCD Web Optimizer™
    * Viral Video Testing
    * Online Tip-In Testing
    * HCD Eye-Tracking Metrics
    * HCD AdverTrak™
So are these fake stats?  There is no point in researching those sources because they aren't sources.  How about asking the Delphic Oracle?  But the last one was in 395 CE.  How about Google?

There is a University of Chicago survey of 2,000 doctors in 2005.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/PracticeManagement/1237 (http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/PracticeManagement/1237)
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith--.shtml (http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith--.shtml)

But that was just on religious affiliation.  The only supernatural question was on life after death. 
Quote
76% of the respondents said they believed in God, compared with 83% of the U.S. population.
...
59% said they believed in life after death.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070411/survey-most-doctors-believe-religion-spirituality-have-positive-effects-on-illness/ (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070411/survey-most-doctors-believe-religion-spirituality-have-positive-effects-on-illness/)
The Christian Post (Apr. 11 2007) reports it as:
Quote
From a random sample of 2,000 doctors around the United States, the University of Chicago also found that 2 out of every 5 respondents felt that religion and spirituality (R/S) can help prevent bad outcomes such as heart attacks, infections and even death. The results comes one year after another study had disputed the positive effect of therapeutic prayer.
...
Last year, a $2.4-million study conducted by the Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery and that patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
Well, at least those Christians believe that bearing true witness is a virtue.  So 40% did not claim big events such that the world could wonder at can occur but only a little oomph on the "outcomes".

FYI, "miracle" is Latin "miraculum" from "mirari" meaning to look at, to wonder at.  So, by definition[3], a miracle is some big event the world could wonder at.

There is a survey of 2,000 doctors with 1,144 respondents: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17faith.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17faith.html) which article links to the Archives of Internal Medicine:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/7/649 (http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/7/649)

Now, let's find out about those 3 out of 4 doctors that RCBrady thinks have seen amputations regrow from prayer.  "R/S" here means "religion and spirituality".
Quote
Results  The response rate was 63%. Most physicians (56%) believed that R/S had much or very much influence on health, but few (6%) believed that R/S often changed "hard" medical outcomes.


Whoops!  Only 6% believe in hard outcomes.

So therefore 94% of doctors believe that God Won't Heal Amputees.
 1. May I be forgiven here for introducing a term from the occult.
 2. 
Nomanusani
Genanianorum
Datanoanis
Accanumanos
Ablanoanis
Ex takes ablative case.
 3. Note my non-weasely use here
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 11, 2010, 10:31:09 PM
Nice research Hist. I actually never noticed that line from our recently banished friend. Maybe when he finishes his sock puppet account and comes back we can question him on it.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Positiveaob on December 11, 2010, 11:11:29 PM
I think we can go ahead and put the nails in the coffin on this whole "3 out of 4 doctors believe in medical miracles" nonsense.  But if the OP is still lurking here, it was YOU who were using this as an example of "compelling" evidence, regardless of whether you were quoting one of the videos.  I really couldnt care less what the videos state.  I havent even seen any of them.  Unlike you, I don't base my thoughts or beliefs on what a book (or video) written by others tells me to believe.


For the record, I think it's safe to say that ZERO percent of licensed medical doctors believe amputated limbs can grow back.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Historicity on December 11, 2010, 11:39:09 PM
Here is some supplemental material on the definition of miracles but removed for length:

Quote
You Sexy Thing
Hot Chocolate

I believe in miracles.
Where you from,
You sexy thing?
I believe in miracles
Since you came along,
You sexy thing.

Miracles right before my eyes.
You sexy thing, you got me hypnotized.

You Make Loving Fun
Fleetwood Mac
...
I never did believe in miracles,
But I got a feeling it's time to try.
I never did believe in the ways of magic,
But I'm beginning to wonder why.

Do You Believe in Magic?
Lovin' Spoonful

Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart?
How the music can free her, whenever it starts?
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie.
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll.

So, "by definition", do you believe in miracles?

My favorite lyrics site is:  Lyrics World (http://www.ntl.matrix.com.br/)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Gnu Ordure on December 12, 2010, 10:25:59 AM
Historicity:
Quote
World Nut Daily cites 2 sources:  A Jewish seminary's institute and HCD Research.
You must have missed my post #50 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16852.msg374984#msg374984). I spoke to both these places; they no longer have the original survey data, so Brain's statistic can't be verified.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 16, 2010, 05:32:06 PM
Question Answered.

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

2. Because man is selfish. Man ignores Yah's instructions on caring for the poor.

3. Lawbreakers are - by definition - NOT innocent. We do the same for certain crimes in our society (capital punishment).

4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

6. Because there are evil people in the world who harm good people.

7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

8. The Holy Spirit was sent to be with us when the Messiah left.

9. It was symbolism for his death. He never told anyone to eat his real flesh or drink his real blood.

10. Mankind is selfish and disobedient
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agga on December 16, 2010, 09:13:59 PM
Question Answered.
But the answers raise some further issues.

Quote
1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires.
Except he says he will.

Quote
He didn't amputate. Doctors did.
Except for when a landmine (or Ninja) does it.

Quote
2. Because man is selfish. Man ignores Yah's instructions on caring for the poor.
Except for all the man that helps other man. And except for the man that listens to Yah's instructions (see bible).

Quote
3. Lawbreakers are - by definition - NOT innocent. We do the same for certain crimes in our society (capital punishment).
Except for those who don't break the law intentionally. And except for the *majority* of societies who do not have capital punishment

Quote
4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...
Except the bible is full of scientifically proveable errors.

Quote
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.
Which means that he doesn't demand it ever year that isn't a Jubilee year (free slaves, but only on Jubilee years.. hmmm).

Quote
6. Because there are evil people in the world who harm good people.
And there are good people who harm evil people.

Quote
7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.
Don't let us stop you providing it.

Quote
8. The Holy Spirit was sent to be with us when the Messiah left.
Except there's no evidence of it being there or doing anything. And anythign atributed to it can easily be attributed to any other god or universal energy.

Quote
9. It was symbolism for his death. He never told anyone to eat his real flesh or drink his real blood.
Ouch. The Catholic church (the biggest christian sect) has that all wrong, then. Except, they'll tell you that you're wrong. So who is right?

Quote
10. Mankind is selfish and disobedient
Except it's also incredibly benevolent, too.


:)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Positiveaob on December 16, 2010, 09:24:20 PM
Joshua:

1.  Amputations don't require a doctor.  And when doctors are involved, it's done to save a life not to be cruel. 

All of which is beside the point.  We're not trying to show that such a god is cruel.  We're showing that he doest exist.  Or at least if he does he's going well out of his way to stay hidden because he only intervenes in ways that have alternative explanations. 

I'm gonna go with doesnt exist.

2. No.  Man doesnt create famines, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.

3. Newborn children are "lawbreakers", huh?

4.  There is nothing in the bible demonstrating "science" beyond what one would expect of people living more than 2000 years ago.

5.  Slavery is morally repugnant.  There's no way around this.  It's an example of how the bible reflects the culture of an ancient people and not the word of a "god".

6. Also plenty of "bad" things that happen that have nothing whatsoever to do with "evil people".  A young mother diagnosed with Lou Gehrigs disease, for example.  How would that be related to evil people?

7. Humor us.  Let's hear it.

8.  And you have what evidence of this?

9. No, actually he stated flesh and blood.  You can pretty much explain any nonsensical superstition by calling it "symbolism".

10. I'm disobedient to imaginary beings with imaginary commands, sure.  Don't see how that makes me selfish.

Is this really the best you have?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on December 16, 2010, 10:46:05 PM
Quote
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.
Which means that he doesn't demand it ever year that isn't a Jubilee year (free slaves, but only on Jubilee years.. hmmm).

That only applies to Jewish slaves. Also if an owner "gave" the slave a wife. She and the children weren't free. Also women who were Jewish were exceptions to this and were never freed, unless you go with a passage in Exodus that contradicts this and says that the Jubilee freeing applied to them as well. Either way the law to free slaves was only meant for Jews.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: One Above All on December 17, 2010, 02:53:29 AM
Alright, I got 10 minutes before I have to get ready to school, I'll reply to this

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

In the Bible he says he will and some babies are born without limbs, due to the very "intelligent" design of our DNA, which causes "glitches", if you will, causing such mutations.


2. Because man is selfish. Man ignores Yah's instructions on caring for the poor.

Yes you do. Why didn't you sell all your stuff and give to the poor, like the Bible says?

3. Lawbreakers are - by definition - NOT innocent. We do the same for certain crimes in our society (capital punishment).

Girls who are not virgins when they marry and homosexuals , are not "lawbreakers". Same with people who work on the "Sabbath" etc. They are just people who want to use FREE WILL

4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

Where is there any of this? And even if there is, why would an all-knowing god not WANT Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of GOOD AND EVIL AND KNOWLEDGE?
PS: Just because the 6 days don't make sense, doesn't mean "that's not really what is there", it means just that - It doesn't make sense
EDIT: Please note that the tree wasn't good or evil, it would merely give Adam and Eve the KNOWLEDGE to distinguish between the two

5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

Really? Where does it say that?

6. Because there are evil people in the world who harm good people.

And yet your all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful god doesn't do **** to help them... It's weird, right? It's like he's not there[1]

7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

Put up or shut up

8. The Holy Spirit was sent to be with us when the Messiah left.

Proof

9. It was symbolism for his death. He never told anyone to eat his real flesh or drink his real blood.

Proof

10. Mankind is selfish and disobedient

So mankind can just go around god's power? That's good to know. Now all my atheist buddies will have free entrance into heaven
 1. I expect the usual "free will" argument against this
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Eddy Swirl on December 17, 2010, 04:08:18 AM
7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

Very convincing....



Weak mate. Weak.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 17, 2010, 07:03:01 AM
Quote from: joshua
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

So you haven't read the bible. Gotcha.

To be fair: Why don't you mention the other god-sanctioned ways israelites scored free labour?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 17, 2010, 08:35:36 AM
welcome joshua

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

That misses the point of the question.

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.  You have not addressed that.


4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

I am a mechanical engineer.  Please point out where the bible has mechanical engineering.  I must have missed it.

As for "advance time measurement", please explain how it is that and not hyperbole.  I am curious how you know it is "advance time measurement", what the conversion is and how it is useful.

5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay.

So owning people is okay with you?  That would be acceptable to you if the laws were changed to permit slavery in exchange for debt relief?


7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

Try us.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agga on December 17, 2010, 09:26:56 AM
That only applies to Jewish slaves. Also if an owner "gave" the slave a wife. She and the children weren't free. Also women who were Jewish were exceptions to this and were never freed, unless you go with a passage in Exodus that contradicts this and says that the Jubilee freeing applied to them as well. Either way the law to free slaves was only meant for Jews.
Ecellent. So not only was it only on the Jubilee years that slaves were freed, it was only for Jewish slaves.

Gee. What a nice god. ;)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 24, 2010, 06:51:27 PM
I completely forgot that I responded to this thread (I've been on others)!!! And for everyone who thought I was ignoring, forgive me.

Ok...


welcome joshua

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

That misses the point of the question.

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.  You have not addressed that.

Fare enough. But my point in being so blunt ("...not a genie..blah, blah") is to bring to the forefront a (false) assumption that both camps use to compete against each other; the same false assumption that your camp (merely said for descriptive purposes) attempts to prove a non-existance, while the other camp (in delusion) also attempts to prove existence...when it has ALWAYS been more complicated/responsible than that. From the beginning there were always rules to follow with this deity to even gain access to such gifts, and not everyone gains the same gifts (and I hate using the word "gift" because in our society such a word brings to mind "magic").

No atheist can EVER pray, even an endourance prayer - for a selfish motive no less - just to prove or disprove this point (hence my characterization of a genie being summoned from a lamp)...At the same time, no xian can associate every natural healing phenomena to this deity, while only accepting the "feel good" parts of the faith and COMPLETELY ignoromg the rules that were established to allow for such healing to be possible.

4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

I am a mechanical engineer.  Please point out where the bible has mechanical engineering.  I must have missed it.

You should read the construction of the temple of Solomon. Solomon married an egyptian woman to gain access to the knowledge of constructing sand-hydrolic machines (of pyramid history). This contruction went into the development of the Temple, particularly to hide the ark in case of envasion The Great Secret of Solomon's Temple - Part 9 of 11 - By Michael Rood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDNki9NzN98#) (2 Chronicles 3:17 also talks about it: Boaz & Jachin = Base Fulcrum).

As for "advance time measurement", please explain how it is that and not hyperbole.  I am curious how you know it is "advance time measurement", what the conversion is and how it is useful.

Several times in scripture it's quoted that a day is not a day but like thousands of years. The passage of time is relative for each person experiencing it...and yet most (on both sides) assume (whether to prove or disprove) that creation occured in 6 of our "human" days. They were truly 6 days, but not "days" from human perspective.

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night."

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (25) "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble." (26) After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed." (27) He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

...Now is this passage speaking about days, weeks, or years? The answer is "all three at once".

There are several more but I'm trying to save space.


5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay.

So owning people is okay with you?  That would be acceptable to you if the laws were changed to permit slavery in exchange for debt relief?

Well to be fair, we all believe in the concept of owning people, right? Here's what I mean: if you take out a bank loan, car note or pay income taxes you believe in people owning a portion of you (at least for a time)...and you agree to work hard for them until you're freed from that bond...but are you every free from it? Most will have to answer "no". That is slavery. This is why I said "it's natural to be in debt (owned when one can't pay) but while man will keep people in slavery indefinitely, Yah commands to set people free after a certain time (jubilee years, specifically)".

1 Peter 2:9 "But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"

Israel was always meant to minister to the world as the priest nation of the nations. Jubilee years were NEVER just for israel...but Israel must first learn what they mean before they can minister to the rest of us.

7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

Try us.

(a) 1 John 5:8 "the Spirit, the water and the blood; these three are in agreement. (9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of Yah is greater: for this is the witness of Yah which he hath testified of his Son."

Yahshua Perfectly fulfilled the feast, on the exact day of the feast, and using the exact items as was in the feast (Leviticus 16:15 "Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that [is] for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle [blood] upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:")

Please go to youtube and watch the rest of the parts from the youtube video series I provided above. There are 11 parts altogether so I didn't want to crowd this forum with them. Please watch to the end, paying specific attention to the proof of the miracle of the earthquake crack, and where the blood was found (upon modern excavation) during Yahshua's crucifixion and let me know what you think.

(b) Mark 15:33  "At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour"

In Jerusalem, there was a solar eclipse for 3 hours upon the death of Yahshua on the execution stake. Please research the April 14, 28CE solar eclipse that lasted 3 hours in Jerusalem from noon to 3pm. Again this was the exact day of Passover (when the lamb was to be slaughtered).

(c) Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

On September 11th 3 BCE, there was a one-of-a-kind (not to be repeated) astronomical sign Constellation Bethulah (virgo) upon the setting sun with the moon under the Constellation's feet that announce the birth of the Messiah. Jupiter and Regulus were also in conjunction in Ariel (Leo). Please research astronomical records that shows this specific event. 15 days later on Tishri 15 (Sept 26th, 3BCE) Yahshua was born exactly on the "Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot)".

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (sukka = tabernacled) among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 24, 2010, 10:06:58 PM
I completely forgot that I responded to this thread (I've been on others)!!! And for everyone who thought I was ignoring, forgive me.

Thank you for replying.  I forgive your trespass. 

Fare enough. But my point in being so blunt ("...not a genie..blah, blah") is to bring to the forefront a (false) assumption that both camps use to compete against each other; the same false assumption that your camp (merely said for descriptive purposes) attempts to prove a non-existance, while the other camp (in delusion) also attempts to prove existence...when it has ALWAYS been more complicated/responsible than that.

But that was my point.  This question is not a silver bullet designed to disprove all concepts of god.  It does however, put to rest certain other concepts of god - namely, the kind of god that heals people.

From the beginning there were always rules to follow with this deity to even gain access to such gifts, and not everyone gains the same gifts (and I hate using the word "gift" because in our society such a word brings to mind "magic").

Of course it's magic.  What else would you call it?  So many models of magic are based on some obscure, minor godling and making sacrifices to it in exchange for power.  And that is precisely what prayers etc are intended to do - to reshape reality through mystical and arcane rituals rather than conventional methods of hard work. 

No atheist can EVER pray, even an endourance prayer - for a selfish motive no less - just to prove or disprove this point (hence my characterization of a genie being summoned from a lamp)...At the same time, no xian can associate every natural healing phenomena to this deity,...

Missing the point.  Please go back and reread.  Let me know if you need any clarifications.

You should read the construction of the temple of Solomon. Solomon married an egyptian woman to gain access to the knowledge of constructing sand-hydrolic machines (of pyramid history).

1. Are these machines detailed in solomon?  By detailed, I mean, specifications, engineering drawings, stress calculations, bill of matierials, etc that would allow me to construct them and explain how it works.
2. Chapter and verse, please?  Where in the bible are the specs for these alleged machines?  That was your whole claim - that the bible contained mechanical engineering.
3. Shouldn't the hebrews have already known how to do this since they allegedly were the slave labor that built the pyramids in the first place?[1]

This contruction went into the development of the Temple, particularly to hide the ark in case of envasion The Great Secret of Solomon's Temple - Part 9 of 11 - By Michael Rood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDNki9NzN98#) (2 Chronicles 3:17 also talks about it: Boaz & Jachin = Base Fulcrum).

Link? Evidence?  Frankly, Mike Rood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rood) has little credibility as an archaeologist (or anything else).   If he has had any of his work confirmed through peer review, please cite it.

Several times in scripture it's quoted that a day is not a day but like thousands of years. The passage of time is relative for each person experiencing it

Actually, that does not say time is relative to each person experiencing it.  It is in reference to yhwh.  And that does not answer my question.  This kind of poetic, hyperbolic language is of no practical use to anyone.  You said it was "advanced time measurement".  Explain what is advanced about it.  Explain how it tells us anything of practical use.  I do not see it as anything but hyperbole as an ignorant writer gushed about his local god.

...and yet most (on both sides) assume (whether to prove or disprove) that creation occured in 6 of our "human" days. They were truly 6 days, but not "days" from human perspective.

That makes no sense.  First of all, what specifically do you mean by "creation"? 

Second of all,  human days are from a human perspective.  It is the amount of time the earth in its current state takes to complete one revolution.  We can get more specific than that, for example, by defining a second by how many times a quartz crystal of a given size, at a given temperature vibrates when subjected to a specific electrical potential. To simply say "a day is a thousand years to yhwh" is meaningless.

If "creation"[2] was created in 6 human days, but not from a human perspective, what does that mean?  How long did creation[3] take?

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night."
poetic language referring to yhwh.

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
poetic language referring to yhwh.  Not only that, but it is self contradictory.  Of what practical use is this "conversion"?

Daniel 9:24...
...Now is this passage speaking about days, weeks, or years? The answer is "all three at once".

The answer is, it is gibberish.  It is a paradox intended to impress people with its opacity.  I am not impressed.

Well to be fair, we all believe in the concept of owning people, right?

To be fair, no.  I sure don't. I think most people would also disagree with you.

Here's what I mean: if you take out a bank loan, car note or pay income taxes you believe in people owning a portion of you (at least for a time)

Incorrect.  They do not own any part of me.  I am not collateral.  When I take out a loan for a car,the car is collateral, so the bank owns the car, not me.  If I do not wish to continue to pay for the car and I stop paying the bank, they take the car, they do not take me.  If they tried, not only would I have firm legal ground for killing them, they would also be subject to criminal charges and a rather lucrative civil suit.

As far as taxes, I am not owned.  As a part of a civlil society where I enjoy the benefits of roads, bridges, police protection and laws, I am responsible to contribute. 

I am afraid, Joshua, that your perspective has been perverted by idiots who do not have your best interests at heart.

...and you agree to work hard for them until you're freed from that bond...but are you every free from it?

Yes.  When I pay off the loan, I am free from that bond.

Israel was always meant to minister to the world as the priest nation of the nations.

No they were not.  Isreal never ministered to anyone.  They thought (and still think) they are an exceptional people and to this day continue to prevent others from attaining their status as "favored".

(a) 1 John 5:8 ...and before the mercy seat[/b]:")

I have no clue what you are talking about.  I know this was in response to you having "scientific evidence" of the existence of a god.  This post is about the furthest thing I can imagine from scientific evidence.

Please go to youtube and watch the rest of the parts from the youtube video series I provided above.

Absolutely not.  It is lazy and inconsiderate to even suggest it.  If you have a point, please make it in your own words.

There are 11 parts altogether so I didn't want to crowd this forum with them.

Good man.  Thank you for that.  But I am afraid there is no way I am going to watch 11 parts of mike rood.

Are you a jehovah's witness?

In Jerusalem, there was a solar eclipse for 3 hours upon the death of Yahshua ...

Even if there was an eclipse, it is speculation on your part that it coincided with the death of jesus H.  This is not scientific.  And it does not explain the zombies rising from the grave that were mentioned in Matt 27.

(c) Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

yeah yeah yeah.  Look at my icon.  That is me standing over her. 

Look, just because it may mention actual places or events does not mean the whole preposterous story is "scientifically proven".  Harry Potter books mention London, the North Sea and other places in Europe.  That does not mean they are real stories.  And it certainly does not make it scientific evidence.

 1. the answer is no, they weren't.  They were never actually a nation enslaved.  That whole story is fiction.
 2. whatever that means
 3. whatever that means
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 04:02:21 PM
Fare enough. But my point in being so blunt ("...not a genie..blah, blah") is to bring to the forefront a (false) assumption that both camps use to compete against each other; the same false assumption that your camp (merely said for descriptive purposes) attempts to prove a non-existance, while the other camp (in delusion) also attempts to prove existence...when it has ALWAYS been more complicated/responsible than that.

But that was my point.  This question is not a silver bullet designed to disprove all concepts of god.  It does however, put to rest certain other concepts of god - namely, the kind of god that heals people.

Well, the question as framed - and the conclusion drawn from the given answer to the question - doesn't attempt to disprove "certain other concepts" of god, but specifically "the concept of god himself", by disproving that god heals people. I appreciate your "meaning" (and we can agree on your meaning), but the actually question and answer were indeed framed as an attempted silver bullet (collectively).

From the beginning there were always rules to follow with this deity to even gain access to such gifts, and not everyone gains the same gifts (and I hate using the word "gift" because in our society such a word brings to mind "magic").

Of course it's magic.  What else would you call it?  So many models of magic are based on some obscure, minor godling and making sacrifices to it in exchange for power.  And that is precisely what prayers etc are intended to do - to reshape reality through mystical and arcane rituals rather than conventional methods of hard work.

Well if you consider it "magic" then you limit yourself, as one can pick any form of modern medicine or technology and use a time machine (hypothetically) to show it to earlier man and they will most definitely call it magic or sorcery for no other logical reason than the fact that they can't explain how it works, right? Absent of explanation doesn't lend itself to absent of existence (of particular knowledge)...and that's not to say that if they are educated in it they can't eventually understand, correct?

No atheist can EVER pray, even an endourance prayer - for a selfish motive no less - just to prove or disprove this point (hence my characterization of a genie being summoned from a lamp)...At the same time, no xian can associate every natural healing phenomena to this deity,...

Missing the point.  Please go back and reread.  Let me know if you need any clarifications.

Ok. I will...but my point is "(a) the very basis of a prayer - any prayer (as framed) - that is directed towards 'self' will fail, and (b) any prayer that lacks the principal foundation of 'faith in the existence of Yah (to even hear the prayer)' will fail, and (c) any prayer to Yah from someone who's not first "right" with Yah (i.e. obedient to his instructions & in his presence) will fail. These qualifications disqualify both the [cafeteria] xian (and most xians - like 90% - are such) and the atheist (100%).

You should read the construction of the temple of Solomon. Solomon married an egyptian woman to gain access to the knowledge of constructing sand-hydrolic machines (of pyramid history).

1. Are these machines detailed in solomon?  By detailed, I mean, specifications, engineering drawings, stress calculations, bill of matierials, etc that would allow me to construct them and explain how it works.
2. Chapter and verse, please?  Where in the bible are the specs for these alleged machines?  That was your whole claim - that the bible contained mechanical engineering.
3. Shouldn't the hebrews have already known how to do this since they allegedly were the slave labor that built the pyramids in the first place?[1]

This contruction went into the development of the Temple, particularly to hide the ark in case of envasion The Great Secret of Solomon's Temple - Part 9 of 11 - By Michael Rood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDNki9NzN98#) (2 Chronicles 3:17 also talks about it: Boaz & Jachin = Base Fulcrum).

Link? Evidence?  Frankly, Mike Rood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rood) has little credibility as an archaeologist (or anything else).  If he has had any of his work confirmed through peer review, please cite it.
 1. the answer is no, they weren't.  They were never actually a nation enslaved.  That whole story is fiction.

From the responses it would seem that you didn't watch the series (as the series does give book, chapter and verse of the designs (on screen) along with supported archaeological proof)...but then you attempt to discredit the person referencing the book, chapter and verse, which is a little dishonest. It's all there sir. Please take the time to watch the entire series from the beginning with access to any online bible (if but to disprove anything).

I don't assume anyone on this forum would want to be spoon fed, especially when a reference was given to be researched on one's own. Interestingly, it seems as though we both failed each other: I failed to correctly read one of your responses, and you've done the same with proving the content given by these youtube videos.


Several times in scripture it's quoted that a day is not a day but like thousands of years. The passage of time is relative for each person experiencing it

Actually, that does not say time is relative to each person experiencing it.  It is in reference to yhwh.  And that does not answer my question.  This kind of poetic, hyperbolic language is of no practical use to anyone.  You said it was "advanced time measurement".  Explain what is advanced about it.  Explain how it tells us anything of practical use.  I do not see it as anything but hyperbole as an ignorant writer gushed about his local god.

...and yet most (on both sides) assume (whether to prove or disprove) that creation occured in 6 of our "human" days. They were truly 6 days, but not "days" from human perspective.

That makes no sense.  First of all, what specifically do you mean by "creation"? 

Second of all,  human days are from a human perspective.  It is the amount of time the earth in its current state takes to complete one revolution.  We can get more specific than that, for example, by defining a second by how many times a quartz crystal of a given size, at a given temperature vibrates when subjected to a specific electrical potential. To simply say "a day is a thousand years to yhwh" is meaningless.

If "creation"[2] was created in 6 human days, but not from a human perspective, what does that mean?  How long did creation[3] take?
 2. whatever that means
 3. whatever that means

Hmm..? No, I said time was relative for each person experiencing it, and while the verses do reference to Yah, (the faith believes) Yah IS a person. Time is a concept and (itself) ISN'T practical except to those who use it in such a way. But to clarify, I first stated that there was evidence of "ATM" in scripture (after which you asked for proof/location)...now you ask to "explain what's 'advanced' about it"...ok so let's explain what's "advance" about this time measurement...:

1. We measure time on 1 dimension/plane (some call it the 4th); it's linear and from our perspective (using our units of measurement).

2. However, since we weren't "there" at the beginning of this linear plane (nor will we be there at its end) we can't conclude that our perspective (units of time) is constant, but that - indeed - they [units of time] are variable...but "by how much", we can't know.

3. The Bible's most used unit of time measurement is "days", but the word used is not "day", but accurately "Yom".

Ok, well what's a "Yom"?

4. A "Yom" is a perspective (unit of measurement) of time, which can mean either "day" or "year" or "group of days" or "group of years", depending upon the person using the measurement. In scripture, "yom" has been recorded to mean "time", "age", "day", "full year", "days", "length", "fate", "years", and even "chronicles".

5. Then we're told several times that "a day [correctly a 'Yom'] is like a thousand years (not correct translated either...more correctly 'millenia'), and a thousands years is like a day" to Yah.

With "yom" having so many meanings, it's truly a discredit to the authenticity of scripture when it's translated into simply "day".

6. Now, assuming Yah exists for a moment (that he is a person), it is recorded that Yah created the world and the fullness thereof in 5 "Yoms"...and then the beasts & man in the 6th "Yom" (resting on the seventh). But science knows that the world has existed for billions (thousands of thousands of thousands) of (our) years...

Realizing that we're measuring time from our scientific perspective (units), is the SAME timeframe discredited if measured from another perspective? No. Time is relative to persons.

In Gen 2:17 we read, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ...and yet scripture details that Adam lived until he was 930 years old (gen  5:5). Well wait a sec!? Was Yah lying? Is this an error in scripture? No, this is scriptural proof that time is measured on a more advanced level than our own; Advance Time Measurement.

Adam is recorded to have died 930 years old from the day he ate the forbidden fruit, and based on the scripture that "a yom is like millenia and millenia is like a yom, to yah", Adam died within the "Yom" (thousand years) he ate the forbidden fruit.

7. The words "Seven" and "week" are two different English words used to determine "quanitity": Seven = 7 of [anything]; Week = quantity of [days] (whether "business week" or "regular week")...But the Hebrew word used in scripture for BOTH seven AND week is "Shavua".

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..."

Question: From what we now know, is "seventy weeks" an accuracte rendering? No.
Question: Is "Seventy Sevens" (Shivim Shavuim) a measurement in days, years, or weeks of years? The answer is "could be All three" (and in fact this is in this case) because a measurement of time depends upon (a) the person giving the measurement and (b) the person receiving the measurement. In this case an angel of Yah gave the measurement and Daniel received it. This passage even plagued Sir Isaac Newton until his death because he bound himself to our perspective (units of time).

You see...if you gave me a measurement in time, it's ok because your perspective is the same as mine (because we are two persons who are similar lifeforms) and it would be safe to assume that I could directly relate to that unit of time. But if (let's say) Yah gave you a measurement in time, your perspective is not the same as his (because you are two persons who measure time differently) so you couldn't simply relate to it on a human level.

Another example is "Lifetime". A "lifetime" is another measurement of time, but how long is it? Well we can try to give a standard but this measurement of time is even moreso relative to the person or thing experiencing it.

Cicadas only live for two (of our) weeks once they're adults, but is that any less a lifetime from their perspective? No. We have a more advance measurement of time as different lifeforms compared to them. So can we really disqualify a similar temporal relationship between we and a (supposed) higher lifeform scientifically who would be more advanced? No. As Einstein said, "time is relative".

Well to be fair, we all believe in the concept of owning people, right?

To be fair, no.  I sure don't. I think most people would also disagree with you.

I give you more credit than this. This isn't an intellegent way to respond. Respond to any of my points in full. Don't snag this quote out of context (c'mon dude?).

Here's what I mean: if you take out a bank loan, car note or pay income taxes you believe in people owning a portion of you (at least for a time)

Incorrect.  They do not own any part of me.  I am not collateral.  When I take out a loan for a car,the car is collateral, so the bank owns the car, not me.  If I do not wish to continue to pay for the car and I stop paying the bank, they take the car, they do not take me.  If they tried, not only would I have firm legal ground for killing them, they would also be subject to criminal charges and a rather lucrative civil suit.

As far as taxes, I am not owned.  As a part of a civlil society where I enjoy the benefits of roads, bridges, police protection and laws, I am responsible to contribute. 

I am afraid, Joshua, that your perspective has been perverted by idiots who do not have your best interests at heart.

With respect, the bank does NOT own the car when you ask for a car loan (or mortgage or personal loan). YOU agree to forfeit the car (the house or thing) if YOU can't pay the cost of borrowing money from the bank.

They don't own the item until you break the first part of the agreement...they don't even give any money to you or the dealership but simply agree to "owe [credit]" those entities (like magic lol). So banks own or give NOTHING of collateral in the ENTIRE deal. YOU are the collateral who agrees "to work" to pay them money for money they agreed to "owe [credit]" you or another. Please read "Modern Money Mechanics" as published by the Federal Reserve.

INCOME Taxes: NONE of the things you've mentioned are because of "income tax" payments. Income taxes go DIRECTLY to the Federal Reserve as INTEREST payments for the LOAN of The Federal Researve Note, because - yes - every note in circularion is a loan to the government from this PRIVATE bank.

...and because "income taxes" is not based on any priveledge (like those you've mentioned) but on the right to HAVE this money, we pay to work. This is the SAME concept instituted by Egypt towards the Israelites: they PAID dues for the privedge of working for Pharoah. At least back then, slave owners clothed and housed their slaves. Today, the slaves are required to also cloth and house themselves.

Someone has been lying to you.


...and you agree to work hard for them until you're freed from that bond...but are you every free from it?

Yes.  When I pay off the loan, I am free from that bond.

"When"...

"Balloon Payment"'...."Refinance"..."Trade in"..."lease to own"..."credit extension"...

When is when? Are you ever free from the bond? You see, the 'illusion' is when you look and see that you've got different 'stuff'; it feels like one has started anew, but - no - it's the same debt with a new label.
 

Israel was always meant to minister to the world as the priest nation of the nations.

No they were not.  Isreal never ministered to anyone.  They thought (and still think) they are an exceptional people and to this day continue to prevent others from attaining their status as "favored".

Note that I said Israel, but from your response it sounds like you're thinking of the current "Nation of Israel" (which is only the descendants of Judah [the Jews]). Israel (of biblical history) was scattered. These are who were meant to minister, but I never said they did...merely that they were meant to.

(a) 1 John 5:8 ...and before the mercy seat[/b]:")

I have no clue what you are talking about.  I know this was in response to you having "scientific evidence" of the existence of a god.  This post is about the furthest thing I can imagine from scientific evidence.

Please go to youtube and watch the rest of the parts from the youtube video series I provided above.

Absolutely not.  It is lazy and inconsiderate to even suggest it.  If you have a point, please make it in your own words.

There are 11 parts altogether so I didn't want to crowd this forum with them.

Good man.  Thank you for that.  But I am afraid there is no way I am going to watch 11 parts of mike rood.

Again, I source references but you don't want to venture a watch. Start from the beginning (part 1) and you will find your scientific proof I promise...unless you're nervous that it actually will make sense (I josh)?

Are you a jehovah's witness?

NOPE!

In Jerusalem, there was a solar eclipse for 3 hours upon the death of Yahshua ...

Even if there was an eclipse, it is speculation on your part that it coincided with the death of jesus H.  This is not scientific.  And it does not explain the zombies rising from the grave that were mentioned in Matt 27.

There's no speculation if the event actually happened...stop dodging the proof. And (lol) it doesn't say zombies rose from the grave.

Look, just because it may mention actual places or events does not mean the whole preposterous story is "scientifically proven".  Harry Potter books mention London, the North Sea and other places in Europe.  That does not mean they are real stories.  And it certainly does not make it scientific evidence.

It could not be any clearer that you'd rather say "it can't be proven" (and maybe you don't want it to be), than to take your time and study the proofs I've offered even to disprove them.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Larissa238 on December 26, 2010, 04:59:00 PM
There's no speculation if the event actually happened...stop dodging the proof. And (lol) it doesn't say zombies rose from the grave.

Look up the scripture. Matt 27:52 "The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life"

Sure sounds like zombies to me.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on December 26, 2010, 05:27:09 PM
Ok. I will...but my point is "(a) the very basis of a prayer - any prayer (as framed) - that is directed towards 'self' will fail, and (b) any prayer that lacks the principal foundation of 'faith in the existence of Yah (to even hear the prayer)' will fail, and (c) any prayer to Yah from someone who's not first "right" with Yah (i.e. obedient to his instructions & in his presence) will fail. These qualifications disqualify both the [cafeteria] xian (and most xians - like 90% - are such) and the atheist (100%).

This is simply untrue.  I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. 

How do you explain it then, when a baby eating, ill-hearted atheist like me says a completely sarcastic prayer about something I want... and it comes true?  I mean, if I said "Fuck you God, I don't believe in you.  Oh, and please, please, please God I pray you let X happen", and it happens, how do you explain it?  I've done that type of thing plenty of times.  That's a directed prayer at myself, from an atheist who is obviously not "right" with God. 

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Graybeard on December 26, 2010, 05:49:55 PM
Re:  "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"

[...] I have been a teacher, a manager, an administrator, a government employee, a business owner, an account rep, an executive, a person working in the financial sector and in human resources, and a software developer.  I am currently the CEO of a moderately large (about 3,000 members) nonprofit entity.
Why do you think you can't hold down a steady job? For "nonprofit" may we substitute, "religious"?

Quote
"Why won't God heal amputees?"

I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you.  I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer. 
Pics or it never happened.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 06:16:13 PM
There's no speculation if the event actually happened...stop dodging the proof. And (lol) it doesn't say zombies rose from the grave.

Look up the scripture. Matt 27:52 "The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life"

Sure sounds like zombies to me.

But does it say "zombies rose from the grave"?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 06:18:26 PM
Ok. I will...but my point is "(a) the very basis of a prayer - any prayer (as framed) - that is directed towards 'self' will fail, and (b) any prayer that lacks the principal foundation of 'faith in the existence of Yah (to even hear the prayer)' will fail, and (c) any prayer to Yah from someone who's not first "right" with Yah (i.e. obedient to his instructions & in his presence) will fail. These qualifications disqualify both the [cafeteria] xian (and most xians - like 90% - are such) and the atheist (100%).

This is simply untrue.  I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. 

How do you explain it then, when a baby eating, ill-hearted atheist like me says a completely sarcastic prayer about something I want... and it comes true?  I mean, if I said "Fuck you God, I don't believe in you.  Oh, and please, please, please God I pray you let X happen", and it happens, how do you explain it?  I've done that type of thing plenty of times.  That's a directed prayer at myself, from an atheist who is obviously not "right" with God.

((this is a little wierd...a believer saying "prayer fails" and an atheist saying "prayer works"  :o))

Trust me it didn't and would never work if directed towards Yah (outside of the conditions I stipulated). Now...whomever else you pray to who answers your prayer positively is between you and them.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Larissa238 on December 26, 2010, 06:31:38 PM
Quote from: modbreak
removed unnecessary nested quotes
But does it say "zombies rose from the grave"?

It says dead people rose from their graves. To your point, the word "zombie" is not used, but the (un)dead did rise from their graves according to Matthew.

Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: modbreak
removed unnecessary nested quotes

It says dead people rose from their graves. To your point, the word "zombie" is not used, but the (un)dead did rise from their graves according to Matthew.

But does it even say "the 'undead' rose from their graves"?  :) (I know I'm fighting against modern cinema and the image it projects).
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: naemhni on December 26, 2010, 06:43:51 PM
But does it even say "the 'undead' rose from their graves"?  :) (I know I'm fighting against modern cinema and the image it projects).

On the off chance that you truly don't know this and aren't just trolling: by definition, corpses that rise from their graves and walk around and so on are undead.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Larissa238 on December 26, 2010, 06:46:51 PM

But does it even say "the 'undead' rose from their graves"?  :) (I know I'm fighting against modern cinema and the image it projects).

If you were dead and buried and then came back to life, what else could you be but "undead"?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 06:54:22 PM

But does it even say "the 'undead' rose from their graves"?  :) (I know I'm fighting against modern cinema and the image it projects).

If you were dead and buried and then came back to life, what else could you be but "undead"?

...you would be alive. I think you guys' point is "any form of resurrection would result in undead (i.e. ruined body walking around between a state of life and death)". Am I correct?
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 26, 2010, 06:57:05 PM
But does it even say "the 'undead' rose from their graves"?  :) (I know I'm fighting against modern cinema and the image it projects).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/undead (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/undead)

Quote
1. Pertaining to a corpse, though having qualities of life.
2. (horror fiction) Being animate, though non-living.


The word describes them perfectly.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 26, 2010, 07:06:04 PM
Funny, if it were anything but the bible, Joshua would probably be happy to call them "zombies" or "undead" but because it's the BIBLE we CAN'T call them those names... If it were Harry Potter or Edgar Allen Poe they would be "undead" or "zombies" but we can't call them that if they are bible zombies.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 07:17:53 PM
Funny, if it were anything but the bible, Joshua would probably be happy to call them "zombies" or "undead" but because it's the BIBLE we CAN'T call them those names... If it were Harry Potter or Edgar Allen Poe they would be "undead" or "zombies" but we can't call them that if they are bible zombies.

I would if it actually used those names, Ag...but it doesn't.

But does it even say "the 'undead' rose from their graves"?  :) (I know I'm fighting against modern cinema and the image it projects).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/undead (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/undead)

Quote
1. Pertaining to a corpse, though having qualities of life.
2. (horror fiction) Being animate, though non-living.


The word describes them perfectly.

No...not perfectly.

Notice the above definition (and even others if you venture a search like I just did)...

Undead is "Corpses, though have qualities of life"
"Undead is...beings that are deceased yet behave as if alive"
Undead "Those creatures which are dead yet still moving"

An "undead" is a corpse that is animated as though it were alive;

The most specific understanding from several different sources for the idea of "undead" is that it is a "imitation of life"; a simulacrum of life; pretense of being alive though dead.

Now, regardless of your belief that Matthew 27:52 is fact or fiction, does the record say "corpses exited their graves and behaved; had qualities; still moved as though they were still alive"? Or does it say "bodies who had died (past tense), were raised to life?

...and just to show that even the writer knew the difference between a corpse and a [living] body, please compare Matthew 24:28 with 27:52...

Matthew 24:28 "For wheresoever the carcase (ptoma) is, there will the eagles be gathered together"

Matthew 27:52 "The tombs broke open and the bodies (sotoma) of many holy people who had died were raised to life"

ptoma (Greek) means "ruin; corpse"
sotoma (Greek) means "living flesh; body"
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: One Above All on December 26, 2010, 07:34:12 PM
I'm going to side with Joshua on the "undead" thing but with everyone else on the "zombie" thing because of this:
Quote from: thefreedictionary.com
2. a supernatural spirit that reanimates a dead body
3. a corpse brought to life in this manner

By definition, dead brought to life are zombies but not all zombies are undead

EDIT#1: Added some information and removed pointless quoting

EDIT#2: Joshua, just because someone doesn't use a word doesn't mean it can't be used in that context. If two words mean the same in the same context, they can both be used in the same context. As an example, I'm going to rewrite the previous sentence.
Poster above me, just because a person doesn't use a certain term doesn't mean it cannot be used in that situation. If two words have equal meaning in the same situation, both can be used in it.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 07:44:58 PM
I'm going to side with Joshua on the "undead" thing but with everyone else on the "zombie" thing because of this:
Quote from: thefreedictionary.com
2. a supernatural spirit that reanimates a dead body
3. a corpse brought to life in this manner

By definition, dead brought to life are zombies but not all zombies are undead

hmph... :? You may have a point there...let me visit thefreedictionary.com and read it (one sec)...
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: William on December 26, 2010, 07:46:24 PM
I would like to know what these "undead/zombies" (whatever who cares?)  actually look like.   Are they physiologically restored i.e. become unrotten again. 
One must assume that for them to stand up and behave with any purpose they would require intact nerves, muscles, etc

I would expect them to pong a fair bit - unless they had a bath and change of clothes - but otherwise be quite hard to tell apart from people who had never been dead.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 07:47:39 PM
I'm going to side with Joshua on the "undead" thing but with everyone else on the "zombie" thing because of this:
Quote from: thefreedictionary.com
2. a supernatural spirit that reanimates a dead body
3. a corpse brought to life in this manner

By definition, dead brought to life are zombies but not all zombies are undead

EDIT#1: Added some information and removed pointless quoting

EDIT#2: Joshua, just because someone doesn't use a word doesn't mean it can't be used in that context. If two words mean the same in the same context, they can both be used in the same context. As an example, I'm going to rewrite the previous sentence.
Poster above me, just because a person doesn't use a certain term doesn't mean it cannot be used in that situation. If two words have equal meaning in the same situation, both can be used in it.

...which words are we talking about? "Zombie" & "undead" or (mine) "ptoma" & "sotoma"?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 07:51:26 PM
I would like to know what these "undead/zombies" (whatever who cares?)  actually look like.   Are they physiologically restored i.e. become unrotten again. 
One must assume that for them to stand up and behave with any purpose they would require intact nerves, muscles, etc

I would expect them to pong a fair bit - unless they had a bath and change of clothes - but otherwise be quite hard to tell apart from people who had never been dead.

The following is a verse from a longer passage explaining how a similar future resurrection will occur for believers (like the one in matt 27:52):

1 Cor 15:51-53 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality."
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: William on December 26, 2010, 07:54:03 PM
^^ all shampooed and clean undies too?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 26, 2010, 07:54:17 PM
Well if you consider it "magic" then you limit yourself, as one can pick any form of modern medicine or technology and use a time machine (hypothetically) to show it to earlier man and they will most definitely call it magic or sorcery for no other logical reason than the fact that they can't explain how it works, right? Absent of explanation doesn't lend itself to absent of existence (of particular knowledge)...and that's not to say that if they are educated in it they can't eventually understand, correct?

So you are saying yhwh's powers are not magic, but actually advanced technology?  I have heard the quote[1] that sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic to a less advanced culture.  But I have never heard yhwh's powers characterized that way.  If it is not magic, what is it?


Ok. I will...but my point is "(a) the very basis of a prayer - any prayer (as framed) - that is directed towards 'self' will fail, and (b) any prayer that lacks the principal foundation of 'faith in the existence of Yah (to even hear the prayer)' will fail, and (c) any prayer to Yah from someone who's not first "right" with Yah (i.e. obedient to his instructions & in his presence) will fail. These qualifications disqualify both the [cafeteria] xian (and most xians - like 90% - are such) and the atheist (100%).

I fail to see what this has to do with our conversation at all.

From the responses it would seem that you didn't watch the series (as the series does give book, chapter and verse of the designs (on screen) along with supported archaeological proof)

I make it a policy to not watch videos in lieu of conversation or in debates.  If there is information I need to support one of my points, it is incumbent on me to provide it.  Not to tell you "oh, it's in this book.  Go read it."  Imay on occasion watch a video to supplement a conversation, but usually not, because there is a pattern of them just wasting my time. 

If it is not important enough to you to go through the video(s) yourself to let me know the verses and chapters, then that is your prerogative.  I consider the point sufficiently unsupported as to call it defeated.  There is no mechanical engineering in the bible. 

...but then you attempt to discredit the person referencing the book, chapter and verse, which is a little dishonest.

Just because I did not watch your videos does not mean I did no research.  I do not find him credible.  I found no credentials that would make him credible as an archaeologist.  This site (http://www.isitso.org/guide/rood.html) details some other problems with his credentials as a scholar.  I have no idea whether that site is valid, so take it with a grain of salt.

Hmm..? No, I said time was relative for each person experiencing it,

What specifically do you mean by that?

Time is a concept and (itself) ISN'T practical except to those who use it in such a way.

Just like food is not practical except to those who eat it.  I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate to me here.

But to clarify, I first stated that there was evidence of "ATM" in scripture (after which you asked for proof/location)...now you ask to "explain what's 'advanced' about it"...ok so let's explain what's "advance" about this time measurement...:

Let's just be clear - there is no moving of goal posts on my part.  My original question:
As for "advance time measurement", please explain how it is that and not hyperbole.  I am curious how you know it is "advance time measurement", what the conversion is and how it is useful.

I ask for it all there.  If I keep asking, or ask in different ways, it is because your answers seem to indicate you misunderstand what I am asking.

1. We measure time on 1 dimension/plane (some call it the 4th); it's linear and from our perspective (using our units of measurement).

What do you mean by "from our perspective"?  What other perspectives are there?

2. However, since we weren't "there" at the beginning of this linear plane (nor will we be there at its end) we can't conclude that our perspective (units of time) is constant, but that - indeed - they [units of time] are variable...but "by how much", we can't know.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.


4. A "Yom" is a perspective...

Why on earth would you conclude that this represents "ATM" and not a paucity of language?  Why would anyone think this has anything to do with

Well wait a sec!? Was Yah lying? Is this an error in scripture? No, this is scriptural proof that time is measured on a more advanced level than our own; Advance Time Measurement.

Or it was just crappy writing by unsophisticated iron age goatherds?  I see no reason to believe there is anything advanced about this.  You propose a unit of measure that is changes arbitrarily and in meaningless ways.  You propose no conversion factor and no reason to use this measure. Your statement should be dismissed out of hand.

You see...if you gave me a measurement in time, it's ok because your perspective is the same as mine (because we are two persons who are similar lifeforms) and it would be safe to assume that I could directly relate to that unit of time. But if (let's say) Yah gave you a measurement in time, your perspective is not the same as his (because you are two persons who measure time differently) so you couldn't simply relate to it on a human level.

Say you were god of some bacteria.  And say you gave them a time reference.  Would you give it to them in a way they could understand, or would you give it to them in a way only you could understand?

Why anyone would worship a god too stupid or inconsiderate to speak in terms they can understand is beyond me.

Cicadas only live for two (of our) weeks once they're adults, but is that any less a lifetime from their perspective? No. We have a more advance measurement of time as different lifeforms compared to them.

1. why on earth would god speak in "lifetimes" and mean cicadas when talking to people?
2. you still have not shown how it is more advanced.

As Einstein said, "time is relative".

This does not come within shouting distance of what Einstein said.  I'll let the people here who understand relativity better address that, though.

I give you more credit than this. This isn't an intellegent way to respond. Respond to any of my points in full. Don't snag this quote out of context (c'mon dude?).

In what way is it out of context?

With respect, the bank does NOT own the car when you ask for a car loan (or mortgage or personal loan). YOU agree to forfeit the car (the house or thing) if YOU can't pay the cost of borrowing money from the bank.

You are being pedantic and arguing against things I have not said. 

When you take out a loan, the bank owns the thing that is collateral until the loan is paid off.  If the thing is a house, they hold the deed.  If the thing is a car, they hold the title.  The bank owns the thing.  You pay the bank.  When you have been paid, you get the deed or the title or whatever.  YOU are not owned.

They don't own the item until you break the first part of the agreement.

No, that is just when they take it.


Someone has been lying to you.

I am sure someone has.  However, it is not the people you think.


"Balloon Payment"'...."Refinance"..."Trade in"..."lease to own"..."credit extension"...

Irrelevant.  Those do not make you the property.


There's no speculation if the event actually happened...stop dodging the proof. And (lol) it doesn't say zombies rose from the grave.

It is not a proof.  Nor was it a dodge.  I am not arguing whether an eclipse happened.  I am saying, it is not proof of anything other than an eclipse. As for the zombies, others have addressed it. 

It could not be any clearer that you'd rather say "it can't be proven" (and maybe you don't want it to be), than to take your time and study the proofs I've offered even to disprove them.

I've told you, I am not going to go watch your videos and I've told you why.  I consider it a concession on your part that you will not provide the information and keep telling me to watch an 11 part video.
 1. was that Carl Sagan?  Arthur Clark?  I forget who...
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 07:54:45 PM
^^ all shampooed and clean undies too?

Bling-Bling!! (lol)
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: One Above All on December 26, 2010, 07:57:00 PM
...which words are we talking about? "Zombie" & "undead" or (mine) "ptoma" & "sotoma"?

"Zombie" and "bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life"
Basically using the word "zombie" to refer to those people

EDIT #1:
On relativity:
Basically depending on your speed, time around becomes slower or faster. IIRC[1] it has something to do with faster things not being as influenced by gravity (and thus its distortion of space-time)

Take the first edit with a fat grain of salt, since I don't remember relativity that well. However, I think that's somewhat close

EDIT #2:
And now I must go to sleep. I shall check this topic in the morning and reply to any posts related to me (and the ones that aren't that I feel like replying to)
 1. If I Remember Correctly
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 26, 2010, 08:24:16 PM
Funny, if it were anything but the bible, Joshua would probably be happy to call them "zombies" or "undead" but because it's the BIBLE we CAN'T call them those names... If it were Harry Potter or Edgar Allen Poe they would be "undead" or "zombies" but we can't call them that if they are bible zombies.

I would if it actually used those names, Ag...but it doesn't.

You are simply in denial because you don't like having those words attached to your holy book. It doesn't have to use those words explicitly in order for us to use other words that mean the same thing. And, like I said, if it were any book but the Bible you wouldn't think twice about calling them "undead" or "zombies."

This is a huge red herring, anyway.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 08:38:07 PM
Well if you consider it "magic" then you limit yourself, as one can pick any form of modern medicine or technology and use a time machine (hypothetically) to show it to earlier man and they will most definitely call it magic or sorcery for no other logical reason than the fact that they can't explain how it works, right? Absent of explanation doesn't lend itself to absent of existence (of particular knowledge)...and that's not to say that if they are educated in it they can't eventually understand, correct?

So you are saying yhwh's powers are not magic, but actually advanced technology?  I have heard the quote[1] that sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic to a less advanced culture.  But I have never heard yhwh's powers characterized that way.  If it is not magic, what is it?
 1. was that Carl Sagan?  Arthur Clark?  I forget who...

Knowledge is power.

Ok. I will...but my point is "(a) the very basis of a prayer - any prayer (as framed) - that is directed towards 'self' will fail, and (b) any prayer that lacks the principal foundation of 'faith in the existence of Yah (to even hear the prayer)' will fail, and (c) any prayer to Yah from someone who's not first "right" with Yah (i.e. obedient to his instructions & in his presence) will fail. These qualifications disqualify both the [cafeteria] xian (and most xians - like 90% - are such) and the atheist (100%).

I fail to see what this has to do with our conversation at all.

If you've failed then there's no need to continue with it.

From the responses it would seem that you didn't watch the series (as the series does give book, chapter and verse of the designs (on screen) along with supported archaeological proof)

I make it a policy to not watch videos in lieu of conversation or in debates.  If there is information I need to support one of my points, it is incumbent on me to provide it.  Not to tell you "oh, it's in this book.  Go read it."  Imay on occasion watch a video to supplement a conversation, but usually not, because there is a pattern of them just wasting my time. 

If it is not important enough to you to go through the video(s) yourself to let me know the verses and chapters, then that is your prerogative.  I consider the point sufficiently unsupported as to call it defeated.  There is no mechanical engineering in the bible.

Its a good thing that's your policy...although I'm curious, if I had a similar policy for an athiest's scientific proofs against my beliefs, what the response would be. Any takers? Anyone? What would you say to me if I took this stance if the situation were reversed?

Say you were god of some bacteria.  And say you gave them a time reference.  Would you give it to them in a way they could understand, or would you give it to them in a way only you could understand?

Why anyone would worship a god too stupid or inconsiderate to speak in terms they can understand is beyond me.

"and god said to this bacteria, 'a day [yom] for a year...', understand?"

This does not come within shouting distance of what Einstein said.  I'll let the people here who understand relativity better address that, though.

You say that it doesn't come close to what Einstein said, and yet you leave it to someone else to explain it? But surely you know enough to make this determination.

With respect, the bank does NOT own the car when you ask for a car loan (or mortgage or personal loan). YOU agree to forfeit the car (the house or thing) if YOU can't pay the cost of borrowing money from the bank.

You are being pedantic and arguing against things I have not said.


NOTE: I Created the engarged bolded in poster's quote. He did not enlarge it or bold it himself. I merely want to show that he's again being a bit dishonest...
Incorrect.  They do not own any part of me.  I am not collateral.  When I take out a loan for a car,the car is collateral, so the bank owns the car, not me.  If I do not wish to continue to pay for the car and I stop paying the bank, they take the car, they do not take me.  If they tried, not only would I have firm legal ground for killing them, they would also be subject to criminal charges and a rather lucrative civil suit.

As far as taxes, I am not owned.  As a part of a civlil society where I enjoy the benefits of roads, bridges, police protection and laws, I am responsible to contribute. 

I am afraid, Joshua, that your perspective has been perverted by idiots who do not have your best interests at heart.

They don't own the item until you break the first part of the agreement.

No, that is just when they take it.

This is false, buddy. Obviously you didnt read even the beginning of "Modern Money Mechanics", but then again maybe you have a book policy?

"Balloon Payment"'...."Refinance"..."Trade in"..."lease to own"..."credit extension"...

Irrelevant.  Those do not make you the property.

I never said they did.


There's no speculation if the event actually happened...stop dodging the proof. And (lol) it doesn't say zombies rose from the grave.

It is not a proof.  Nor was it a dodge.  I am not arguing whether an eclipse happened.  I am saying, it is not proof of anything other than an eclipse. As for the zombies, others have addressed it. 

It could not be any clearer that you'd rather say "it can't be proven" (and maybe you don't want it to be), than to take your time and study the proofs I've offered even to disprove them.

I've told you, I am not going to go watch your videos and I've told you why.  I consider it a concession on your part that you will not provide the information and keep telling me to watch an 11 part video.

(lol) You can consider it whatever you want. Heck, you make your own policies right, so why is this any different? But if you showed evidence that you tried to watch it (because you can't help but to quote verses if you did) I would reciprocate and this conversation could continue (since when were videos held to a different standard than other references? This whole thread was started because of several videos, LOL).

EDIT: Added last 2 sentences
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 26, 2010, 08:52:40 PM
Quote from: joshua
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

So you haven't read the bible. Gotcha.

To be fair: Why don't you mention the other god-sanctioned ways israelites scored free labour?

BUMPED and BOLDED
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 26, 2010, 09:22:16 PM
Quote from: joshua
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

So you haven't read the bible. Gotcha.

To be fair: Why don't you mention the other god-sanctioned ways israelites scored free labour?

BUMPED and BOLDED

Ah, Mr. Bold! <said in my best Dr. Evil accent>

Free labour? Haven't read the bible? what means thou?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 26, 2010, 09:44:08 PM
Reading your posts, it seems you present the issue of slavery as if it was only about debt.

I was wondering why you are omitting instances of non-debt related god-ordained enslavement. If a justification for bible slavery (that is consistent with your god concept) is your aim, then you're not doing a fair job of it by not including all of the facets of it.

My original assumption was that such conduct couldn't be willful, thus my assumption that you've not yet done a full bible read. I have now had the chance to see this sort of thing from you in another thread, and am able now to consider a few more options.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 26, 2010, 09:51:17 PM
I hope you are not considering a lie by omission, Pony...
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on December 26, 2010, 11:14:18 PM
Quote from: modbreak
removed unnecessary nested quotes
((this is a little wierd...a believer saying "prayer fails" and an atheist saying "prayer works"  :o))

Trust me it didn't and would never work if directed towards Yah (outside of the conditions I stipulated). Now...whomever else you pray to who answers your prayer positively is between you and them.

How can you say it didn't work if I got what I wanted?  I was trying to show you that none of your criteria are requirements for affirmative answers to prayers as you claim them to be.  I wasn't trying to show you that prayer doesn't work... at least not in that post.  I was, however, trying to set the stage for the post that does show you that prayer doesn't work.   

Look, you say prayer will only work if people meet the specific criteria you listed.  But what if I give you evidence that I do not meet even a single one of your criteria, yet it can still seem like I get my prayers answered with a yes?  How do you explain that away?  Doesn't that defeat your entire criteria argument?  For example, if I say "God you don't exist, but if you do, fuck you... Oh, and please let the Patriots win their first playoff game this year"... if the Pats win the game, how can you say God didn't answer my prayer?  You say "trust me" as if that's some sort of evidence or something.  No, I won't trust you with this.  I got what I wanted, didn't I?  I prayed, didn't I?  It was a selfish prayer, I don't have faith in God, I'm not "right" with God, yet I still get what I want.  None of your criteria met, yet Pats win.  What gives?  The answer is pretty easy isn't it?  And the answer is entirely the point.

Understand that I am absolutely sure the Christian God does not answer prayers because He doesn't exist.  If I operate under that assumption, which I do, then I have to explain occurrences like the example I listed above.  Like I said, very easy!  Prior to my prayer, there was a good chance they would win the game in the first place!  They were the better team.  You might even agree with me that God had nothing to do with it.  GREAT!  That means you're using your head.  The entire point I am trying to make is that everything anyone asks for in prayer is exactly the same situation.  It doesn't matter how devout, or faithful, or "right" with God someone is; the odds of them getting what they pray for are EXACTLY the same, pre and post prayer.  It changes nothing. It all has to do with the circumstances and the events surrounding that which was prayed for; just like the Patriots game.   Until you can prove that isn't the case, why would anyone believe otherwise?   

When people say "God answered my prayers", how do you determine whether or not God actually did that?  When people say "Thor answered my prayers", how do you personally know this is NOT the case?  Probably because you don't believe in Thor, right?  So how do you explain it when people who pray to Thor appear to get their prayers answered?  Normal circumstances?  Blind luck?  Statistical probability?  Yeah, all of those things.  You would probably explain it the same way I do.  Now all you have to do is understand that your God is exactly the same!  Meeting the criteria you outlined doesn't improve your chances in the slightest.  It just doesn't.  You can say it does all you want, and you can say "trust me" until you turn blue, but until you can provide a single shred of evidence in favor of that, then your God theory on prayer has no more believability than the Thor theory does. 

When you understand why you KNOW Thor doesn't answer prayers, you will understand why your God doesn't either. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Operator_020 on December 27, 2010, 09:58:15 AM
All,

Just a reminder to limit the nested quotations.  Please only quote the pertinent part to which you are responding.  Quoting the previous four responses in the conversation rarely adds anything.  Thanks

020
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 27, 2010, 10:57:28 AM
So you are saying yhwh's powers are not magic, but actually advanced technology?  I have heard the quote[1] that sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic to a less advanced culture.  But I have never heard yhwh's powers characterized that way.  If it is not magic, what is it?
 1. was that Carl Sagan?  Arthur Clark?  I forget who...

Knowledge is power.

This does not answer my question.  Quit being cryptic and quit making me drag the answer out of you. If yhwh's power cannot be characterized as magic, then what would you call it?  What is the difference between magic and divine power?

It (yhwh)allegedly said a word and created the universe.  If that is not magic, then it is science.  What is the word?  How can I use that word? Are there other words that can be used to alter reality?

If you've failed then there's no need to continue with it.

That's fine, we do not have to pursue this any more.  Just let's please understand the failure is yours for not communicating the ideas you wanted to communicate.

Its a good thing that's your policy...although I'm curious, if I had a similar policy for an athiest's scientific proofs against my beliefs, what the response would be. Any takers? Anyone? What would you say to me if I took this stance if the situation were reversed?

The difference is I am not opposed to listening to your points.  You present them, I will read and analyze.  If it sounds good, then perhaps I would go watch a video.  I have watched videos in the past and they have been uniformly disappointing and a waste of my time.  If you think your videos are different, convince me in your own words.

If an atheist here told you to go watch a video instead of making his or her own argument, then I would support you if you said "no, tell me in your words." 

"and god said to this bacteria, 'a day [yom] for a year...', understand?"

no.

You say that it doesn't come close to what Einstein said, and yet you leave it to someone else to explain it? But surely you know enough to make this determination.

Einstein was talking about how time actually passes differently depending on gravity and speed. You are talking about... perceptions of time with gods and humans.  Einstein provided equations.  You provide...?  Einstein's theory is in use today with communication satellites.  Your idea is used today with...?  Now, I know very little about The Theory of Relativity.  But I do know what you are talking about has nothing to do with it.

NOTE: I Created the engarged bolded in poster's quote. He did not enlarge it or bold it himself. I merely want to show that he's again being a bit dishonest...

you're making baby jesus cry.

This is false, buddy. Obviously you didnt read even the beginning of "Modern Money Mechanics", but then again maybe you have a book policy?

I have a policy of insisting that in a conversation the other conversant keep up his end.  Just as I am not going to waste my time with videos, I am also not going to waste my time with books, unless I am given a sufficient reason to believe it is not going to be a waste of my time.  You are putting the burden of making your point on me.  I find that inappropriate and I do not accept it.

I never said they did.

Yes, you did.  You said those things kept you in bond which was how you have been categorizing modern slavery.

(lol) You can consider it whatever you want. Heck, you make your own policies right, so why is this any different? But if you showed evidence that you tried to watch it (because you can't help but to quote verses if you did) I would reciprocate and this conversation could continue (since when were videos held to a different standard than other references? This whole thread was started because of several videos, LOL).

You can lol all you want. Unless you are going to bring something to the table, I see no need for us to continue.  You have made some claims and failed utterly to support those claims.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 28, 2010, 12:40:14 PM
This does not answer my question.  Quit being cryptic and quit making me drag the answer out of you. If yhwh's power cannot be characterized as magic, then what would you call it?  What is the difference between magic and divine power?

It (yhwh)allegedly said a word and created the universe.  If that is not magic, then it is science.  What is the word?  How can I use that word? Are there other words that can be used to alter reality?

It's not cryptic, screwtape, it's simple... (X)knowledge = Power to create/manipulate/use (X)

If you have knowledge in something you have power (i.e. "the ability to do work") in it.

All "technology" is Knowledge, but not all Knowledge is "technology", as "technology" is the "application/engineering of a particular science (a specific knowledge)"...

Science will attest to the fact that not all knowledge is "known" by us, and if it's not (all) known, said knowledge is not yet complete/perfect. Yet, the closer we get to having complete/perfect knowledge in a particular thing or discipline the less effort/resources we need to create/manipulate/use that thing or discipline.

For instance:

- remember the first cell phones...fast forward to today and notice how small our phones now are.
- Less gas is now needed to drive longer distances compared to the first automobiles
- "Voice-Activated" devices (yes, actual examples of things being manipulated/controlled simply by the "word") where once we needed to physically handle their parent versions
- (anyone else can add their own examples to this list)

Knowledge can be proven to be on an inverse scale where "the more you know about (x); the less effort you need to create/use/manipulate (x)"...so then it can be logically assumed - if we attempt to draw out this scale to the "Nth" state - a perfect knowledge of "X" possibly requires such an infantesimal amount of effort that it would look like magic. And if it's a "perfect knowledge" (that which can be simply commanded by a word with little to no effort), then it is a "perfect power".

Knowledge is power. Magic doesn't exist. "Divine" is just an adjective describing certain powers.

I never said they did.

Yes, you did.  You said those things kept you in bond which was how you have been categorizing modern slavery.

No...The initial quesiton I posed for this point was "when [will one be free of the bondage]", and then I give instruments that "keep" one in bond. Your reply was "Irrelevant. Those do not make you the property", to which I replied, "I never said they [the additionally added instruments] did [make you the property]". But "yes", those things do keep you in bondage, as they extend the length of time. I'm sure you'll have a rebuttal to this; how you didn't say this or mean this or how I didn't communicate it to you well enough or whatever (instead of admitting that you initially misunderstood), so I'll just let you have the last word as I'm done with this particular portion of the conversation.

---

And I wasn't laughing at you...I was laughing at the irony of the resulting situation.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 28, 2010, 12:48:50 PM
Reading your posts, it seems you present the issue of slavery as if it was only about debt.

I was wondering why you are omitting instances of non-debt related god-ordained enslavement. If a justification for bible slavery (that is consistent with your god concept) is your aim, then you're not doing a fair job of it by not including all of the facets of it.

My original assumption was that such conduct couldn't be willful, thus my assumption that you've not yet done a full bible read. I have now had the chance to see this sort of thing from you in another thread, and am able now to consider a few more options.

Maybe you could enlighten me on instances of non-debt related enslavement ordained by Yah, because I'm only familiar with instances of debt related enslavement (as ordained by Yah). Give me the bible verse or passage to read and we can hash it out together.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 28, 2010, 01:24:09 PM
How can you say it didn't work if I got what I wanted?  I was trying to show you that none of your criteria are requirements for affirmative answers to prayers as you claim them to be.  I wasn't trying to show you that prayer doesn't work... at least not in that post.  I was, however, trying to set the stage for the post that does show you that prayer doesn't work.

By showing me that it does work!?  :?    Regardless...I respect your candor.

Here...our responses to each other assumes you and I are praying to the same deity (focal point of prayer). Whether you believe he's real or fake, this is the assumption. So let me qualify my earlier responses by saying "outside of the rules, you are not praying to Yah but to someone/something else". My earlier responses assumes you're praying to Yah, the Most High...a Singular deity who is One...and beside He, no one else is. I'm not talking about prayer to one of the false trinity: Gad, Jesus, Ghost.

There is this whole subplot in scripture about "stealing worship through deception and/or proxy", as there was another who always wanted to be worshipped like the Most High; who would give as much as he could to you if he was the one who was worshipped instead...

My point is, if you prayed (outside of the stipulations I've provided) you are/were not praying to Yah. And if your prayer was answered positively, it wasn't Yah who answered your prayer but something else. Your prayer wasn't sent in worship of Yah, but in worship of another.

And regardless of whether you believe in this "other" or not, my point is "prayer can not be used as a litmus test to determine the existence of Yah (as a variable) unless there are no other variables in the equation; unless you first adhere to the spitulations of praying specifically to Yah".
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Historicity on December 28, 2010, 03:00:24 PM
4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...
I am a mechanical engineer.  Please point out where the bible has mechanical engineering.  I must have missed it.
Quote
1 Kings 7:23 And he made a molten sea, 10 cubits from the one brim to the other:  it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of 30 cubits did compass it round about.

7:24 And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast.

7:26 And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.

My hand is 4"  (10cm)wide.  I am taller than an early Iron Age Middle Easterner but I am not a manual laborer like they were.  I've heard 18" (46cm) for a cubit and googled for confirmation and I got answers of 16.85" (42.8cm) to 17.5" (44.5cm).

Okay, pi = 3.14159265358979

So the inside diameter was 10 * 17" = 170" = 14' 2' = 432cm
The outside diameter had the 4" extra radius so it was 178" = 14'10" = 452cm

Now 30 cubits = 30 * 17" = 510" = 42'6" = 1295cm.

170" * pi = 534" = 1357cm
178" * pi = 559" = 1420cm

That 30 cubits circumference for the outside as stated is going to be 49" (125cm) too short.

Some people misread this and think the Bible says the value of pi is 3.  I've heard[1] that Babylonian engineers said pi was 3 and must've done a lot of fudging to make a project fit that design.  So I assumed Bible engineers did that, too. 

But with that 4" thick rim that would make pi to 2.865.

Let's try it in round cubits 10 means 9.5 to 10.4.   30 means 29.5 to 30.4.  But don't forget the .24 cubit brim.  No, I get 31.3 cubits.

Still, no answer.  The plan had to have the outside decorations, 10 to a cubit, spaced evenly.  Hard to do if the calculations were a full cubit wrong.

Or maybe the Bible phrased it poorly or maybe wrote it down wrong and the outside diameter was 10 cubits and there was a rim one hand (.24 cubits) thick.  That would make the inside 9.53 cubits and the circumference 29.94 cubits.  That would only be 1" off.  If the cubit was 17.5" and the hand 4" then it would be 29.98 cubits circumference.

So what the Bible writer meant to say was:  "And he made a molten sea, 10 cubits across on the outside."

But that wouldn't explain the decorations spaced evenly, 10 per cubit on the outside.  I still come up with a need to fudge that by about 2.5" or 10 cm.

Well, good enough for an engineering approximation.
 1. A wonderous history of mathematics book when I was a kid
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Historicity on December 28, 2010, 03:31:33 PM
Maybe you could enlighten me on instances of non-debt related enslavement ordained by Yah, because I'm only familiar with instances of debt related enslavement (as ordained by Yah). Give me the bible verse or passage to read and we can hash it out together.
For instance,
Quote
Exodus 31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was 675,000 sheep, And 12,060 beeves, And 1,060 asses,

31:35 And 32,000 persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 28, 2010, 03:40:41 PM
Maybe you could enlighten me on instances of non-debt related enslavement ordained by Yah, because I'm only familiar with instances of debt related enslavement (as ordained by Yah). Give me the bible verse or passage to read and we can hash it out together.
For instance,
Quote
Exodus 31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was 675,000 sheep, And 12,060 beeves, And 1,060 asses,

31:35 And 32,000 persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

Ok (and maybe this is what Ambassador Pony was refering to). Let me read this passage in context and I'll get back to you.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on December 28, 2010, 11:37:59 PM
Here...our responses to each other assumes you and I are praying to the same deity (focal point of prayer). Whether you believe he's real or fake, this is the assumption.

Honestly, I don't think it matters, but I will play along. 

So let me qualify my earlier responses by saying "outside of the rules, you are not praying to Yah but to someone/something else". My earlier responses assumes you're praying to Yah, the Most High...a Singular deity who is One...and beside He, no one else is. I'm not talking about prayer to one of the false trinity: Gad, Jesus, Ghost.

Alright Joshua, then show me how to pray to Yah in the way you want, and I will see if it's true.  Or better yet, if you think you meet all of your own criteria, YOU do it and prove your point with a verifiable, repeatable, falsifiable test procedure.  Or best... find someone you think epitomizes and exemplifies ALL of your criteria and have them do repeated intercessory prayers and see what happens. 

I am saying that none of it really matters.  You claim that there are specific requirements to be met by someone who prays that will enhance the possibility of receiving an answer to a prayer.  You can say Most High, Singular diety, the One, the Only, the Alpha and Omega, the be-all and end-all... the point I am making is that no matter which diety it is, there is no difference.  I am claiming that Yah, and all the other dieties that you claim are false dieties, and all the ones you aren't even mentioning here, do not answer prayers at all.  Unless you can prove that YOUR special diety answers them, then you are just as stuck as everyone else. 

There is this whole subplot in scripture about "stealing worship through deception and/or proxy", as there was another who always wanted to be worshipped like the Most High; who would give as much as he could to you if he was the one who was worshipped instead...

I don't worship any diety.  Nobody is stealing my worship.  I think all previously postulated god(s) are simply not real.   

Do you really think it's surprising that a religion that was formed amidst many, many other competing religions would have a phrase in it's holy book about other dieties who want to steal worship? 

My point is, if you prayed (outside of the stipulations I've provided) you are/were not praying to Yah.

How do you know that?  How can you possibly know my current standing with what you consider to be the most powerful being in the universe? 

If you claim I can't pray to Yah, then how am I ever supposed to get to know Yah in the first place?  What does it take to know this Yah character you keep talking about?  And don't give me that wishy, washy "you have to ask with all your heart" bull, because I'm not a 5 year old.  I won't simply fall for that trick, where I either ask for the rest of my natural life, or I convince myself that this Yah character exists.  I need some sort of timeline.  How long do I "seek" Yah before I give up and am allowed to say "Nope, Yah isn't real."  I need some sort of way to know that I am "right" with Yah.  I'm not just going to take your word for it either way.  Obviously he's not someone that people know about.   

And if your prayer was answered positively, it wasn't Yah who answered your prayer but something else. Your prayer wasn't sent in worship of Yah, but in worship of another.

Joshua, please, you have got to start thinking a bit here.  I am asking you to respond directly and comment on what I am about to write, OK?  Don't dodge it, don't go around it, answer these questions honestly....

Given the complete lack of verifiable evidence that any prayer has EVER actually been answered by an act of a supernatural entity, is it not possible that there is nothing out there that answers prayer in the first place?   Is it not possible that the "other" thing that you say answers my prayer is not a "thing" at all, and is nothing more than normal circumstances that happen to occur, and my prayer had no bearing at all on the outcome of what I prayed for?  And if that is possibly true, is it also not possible that all of your excuses and criteria are nothing more than the rationalizations that you have come up with to explain this scenario in detail, without having to give up your belief in your invisible surrogate parent?  Think about it, please.  I am talking possibilities here, not certainties.  Where does that logically fall apart for you? 

And regardless of whether you believe in this "other" or not, my point is "prayer can not be used as a litmus test to determine the existence of Yah (as a variable) unless there are no other variables in the equation; unless you first adhere to the spitulations of praying specifically to Yah".

No, it can't.  You're right here.  But you ARE able to establish a reasonable doubt if you meet ALL of your stipulations (not SPITulations) prior to praying, and you still don't show any increase in probability of answered prayer, agreed?  So set up the test.  And if you even remotely say "Yah can't be tested", then I will simply say you're wrong and you don't hold a belief that can be logically maintained by a reasonable person.  If you can't test your theory, then don't even bother saying it. 

Your position holds that this Yah character does answer prayer but only under specific yet incredibly vague and unprovable conditions that allows you to claim that the person who prayed didn't meet one or more of your criteria simply by looking at the result of the prayer (yes or no).  My position holds that intercessory prayer holds no value at all in terms of the outcome of what is prayed for.  I believe that the outcomes of intercessory prayer are nothing more than the natural end results that would have happened regardless of whether it was prayed for.  In effect, intercessory prayer is tantamount to asking the air for help.  Useless. 

With all due respect, I believe this is all in your head Joshua.  Really it is.  Without any type of proof here, your theory involving specific criteria holds no more weight than anything that anyone else could make up.  In fact, if I were to say that all future prayers have to pass through my kitchen sink in order to be answered, then I can just as easily rationalize that any yes answer passed through my kitchen sink and any no answer didn't pass through my kitchen sink.  Can you please tell me the difference between your belief and that?  Seriously, what's the difference? 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 29, 2010, 12:03:57 AM
It's not cryptic, screwtape, it's simple... (X)knowledge = Power to create/manipulate/use (X)

If you have knowledge in something you have power (i.e. "the ability to do work") in it.

I disagree.  Knowledge is inert.  It grants a potential to do or make a thing, not the actual thing.  I know how to build a diesel engine or lawn mower or a machine gun or any number of technological marvels.  But to actually make them, I require tools.  Knowledge does not make me inherently capable. It does not allow me to manipulate reality through my mind and knowledge alone. 

So if your god does all these wondrous things and it does so only by knowledge, it either requires the use of tools or it has some other inherent capability.  Shall we call it a power?  Or even a "magical" power?


All "technology" is Knowledge, but not all Knowledge is "technology", as "technology" is the "application/engineering of a particular science (a specific knowledge)"...

And if your god is applying its knowledge to do things - ie engineer an event or the creation of a universe - then it is technology.  You are saying yhwh's power is technological. Where are its machines?  Where are its tools?  Or if it does not need them, how does it manipulate reality? 


Science will attest to the fact that not all knowledge is "known" by us, and if it's not (all) known, said knowledge is not yet complete/perfect. Yet, the closer we get to having complete/perfect knowledge in a particular thing or discipline the less effort/resources we need to create/manipulate/use that thing or discipline.

For instance:

- remember the first cell phones...fast forward to today and notice how small our phones now are.

But if you wanted to make a rotary phone, it would require the exact same resources that it required 40 years ago.  Not only that, but it probably took less energy to make it than it does a cell phone. High tech requires high energy input, even if the final product weighs a fraction of the old time version.

- Less gas is now needed to drive longer distances compared to the first automobiles

But at no point will it require no fuel or no energy. 

- "Voice-Activated" devices (yes, actual examples of things being manipulated/controlled simply by the "word") where once we needed to physically handle their parent versions

So when yhwh spoke the universe into creation, it was using a hands free device?  Sorry, man.  I just get the feeling you are grasping at straws.

And in all these examples you have illustrated how knowledge has advanced our craft, but it does not show knowledge itself actually doing anything.  It always has to be applied and that requires a lot of actual work.

Knowledge can be proven to be on an inverse scale where "the more you know about (x); the less effort you need to create/use/manipulate (x)"

I disagree.  In my experience it is usually the opposite.  For example, what requires less effort to light a room - making a candle and lighting it or making a fluorescent light, and the requisite power source and flipping a switch?  The tech solution is the costlier one, the one that depends on the hard work of thousands.

I can think of cases where knowledge grants us trade offs to do things that would otherwise be difficult.  For example, a lever allows us to lift a heavier mass but it comes at the expense of having to move a greater distance.  The net effort, however, is the same.

Knowledge is power. Magic doesn't exist. "Divine" is just an adjective describing certain powers.

To an extent, I agree with all of these statements.  But in the context of our conversation, I think they all leave you in a tough spot.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 29, 2010, 12:10:18 AM
My hand is 4"  (10cm)wide...Well, good enough for an engineering approximation.

You bring up a good point, but I would say this falls under the category of plain, old geometry, not ME.  They provide dimensions, but as you point out, they do not describe an object that can be made.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: morningdew on December 29, 2010, 06:01:35 AM
^^One thing that bothers me about god's laws are if he knows that we are going to break his laws he can at least budge a little and lighten up some of his standards. Sure, murdering someone is always bad, but it's absolutely impossible to to follow god's laws, with god sending down his son or not.

But god's reasoning is that we will seek Jesus for forgiveness, but we'd have to ask jesus for forgiveness every second of every day because according to god's laws we break his rules without even knowing it. God's a real hard ass, and he doesn't need to be. In his infinite glory he can become more easy going and allow us mere humans to live like he knew we would, and give us at least some fair shot of making it into heaven.

Emily a question.

I hope I don't off topic here and get myself in trouble.

But, your post amuses me.

I wonder if you question God and his standard of judging us who will you go for help to complain about this?
Jesus?
What can Jesus do?  God is superior.  And God is one alone with no one to be accountable to. We are the one's accountable to no one but God. 

So in the situation when you are unhappy with his choice of our punishment. 

What do you do about that?
 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Don_Quixote on December 29, 2010, 01:14:23 PM
^^One thing that bothers me about god's laws are if he knows that we are going to break his laws he can at least budge a little and lighten up some of his standards. Sure, murdering someone is always bad, but it's absolutely impossible to to follow god's laws, with god sending down his son or not.

But god's reasoning is that we will seek Jesus for forgiveness, but we'd have to ask jesus for forgiveness every second of every day because according to god's laws we break his rules without even knowing it. God's a real hard ass, and he doesn't need to be. In his infinite glory he can become more easy going and allow us mere humans to live like he knew we would, and give us at least some fair shot of making it into heaven.

Emily a question.

I hope I don't off topic here and get myself in trouble.

But, your post amuses me.

I wonder if you question God and his standard of judging us who will you go for help to complain about this?
Jesus?
What can Jesus do?  God is superior.  And God is one alone with no one to be accountable to. We are the one's accountable to no one but God. 

So in the situation when you are unhappy with his choice of our punishment. 

What do you do about that?

Are you implying that we must have fear of this god because we have no other resources to complain with?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: jetson on December 29, 2010, 02:47:38 PM

But, your post amuses me.

Was it actually funny?

Quote

I wonder if you question God and his standard of judging us who will you go for help to complain about this?
Jesus?
What can Jesus do?  God is superior.  And God is one alone with no one to be accountable to. We are the one's accountable to no one but God. 

So in the situation when you are unhappy with his choice of our punishment. 

What do you do about that?

I can't answer for Emily, but I will say this.

Is Jesus God?  Or are they actually separate entities/people/things, whatever?

God is not real, and Jesus, if he was a real man, was no god.  I think that if we give God the benefit of the doubt, he's an asshat at best.  And a really, really shitty creator, at worst.  I only question God when discussing his holy mean-ness with believers.  Otherwise, I assume we are talking abou the attributes of a mythological god that was invented by very uncivilized ancient humans.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 29, 2010, 09:57:38 PM
Late addendum[1]:

digging back into philosophy 101, I remembered the idea of requirement and sufficiency.  By that I mean, for example, while fuel and oxygen are required for a fire, their presence alone is not sufficient to have a fire.  Similarly, knowledge may be required for power, but it is not sufficient for it.
 1. sorry it is late, I was traveling
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Graybeard on December 30, 2010, 09:05:07 AM
But, your post amuses me.
You're facile answer made me laugh.

Quote
What can Jesus do?  God is superior.  And God is one alone with no one to be accountable to. We are the one's accountable to no one but God. 
For godbotherers, your idea that Jesus is less than God raises the idiot question of "The Trinity" http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm (http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm)
Quote
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
--Jesus, Matthew 28:19

Christians regards their religion as monotheistic, since Christianity teaches the existence of one God - Yahweh, the God of the Jews. It shares this belief with two other major world religions, Judaism and Islam.

However, Christian monotheism is a unique kind of monotheism. It holds that God is One, but that three distinct "persons" constitute the one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This unique threefold God of Christian belief is referred to as the Trinity (from Latin trinitas, "three").

# The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible
# The word "Trinity" was first used by Tertullian (c.155-230)
# The doctrine of the Trinity is commonly expressed as: "One God, three Persons"
# The doctrine is formally defined in the Nicene Creed, which declares Jesus to be: "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."

# Past and present Christian faiths who do not believe in the Trinity include:

    * Arianism (4th century)
    * Some Radical Reformers (16th century), such as Michael Servetus
    * Jehovah's Witnesses
    * Mormonism
    * Unitarianism

[...]
There are many differences in doctrine between various mainstream Christian denominations, but the doctrine of the Trinity is not one of them.

    The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life.
    -- Roman Catholicism

    The fundamental truth of the Orthodox Church is the faith revealed in the True God: the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. -- Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

    We teach that the one true God. is the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, three distinct persons, but of one and the same divine essence, equal in power, equal in eternity, equal in majesty, because each person possesses the one divine essence .-- Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod)

    We trust in the one triune God. -- Presbyterian Church (USA)

    The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being. -- Southern Baptist Convention

    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. -- United Methodist Church
The atheist will see the above as more proof (were it needed) that men decide what god is like and invent him to satisfy their own egos.

Of course, if you do not accept the Trinity, then this raises the question of, "What's Jesus' job in heaven?"

If you do accept the doctrine, the question arises, "What was Jesus doing that God could not have?"
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 30, 2010, 01:02:49 PM
For instance [of slavery],
Quote
Exodus 31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was 675,000 sheep, And 12,060 beeves, And 1,060 asses,

31:35 And 32,000 persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

(The correct source is Numbers 31:32, 35) The issue was whether this was "debt based" slavery or "non-debt". It was a "debt based" slavery.

Numbers 22:
This story starts farther back when Israel was freed from Egypt. Moab feared the Children of Israel because of their size, the stories of defeating the Amorites, and because they were now in a land he occupied. In greed, he feared Israel claiming more of the land as territory over him (verse Num 22:4), so he sent messengers to Balaam (a priest) to curse Israel so Moab could drive them away.

Balaam was a follower of Yah who was instructed NOT to curse Israel because they were a blessed people (Num 22:12-13). Balak – being persistent – tempted Balaam with an honorable position and riches and property if he would curse Israel asking three times in a span of several days. Balaam however – instructed by Yah – built seven alters in three different locations in Moab’s land to bless Israel. Moab pleaded but Balaam would not curse Israel but he did tell the future of Moab’s people (that they would be swallowed up by Israel). Balak departed and everything was seemingly settled, until…

Number 25:
Moabite women began infiltrating Israel. Using their sexuality, the Moabite women tempted Israel’s males to break the law [no idolatry; no fornication outside of marriage] by worship false gods and through whoredom, defiling the holy place.

[Meanwhile, also in that time the priest, Balaam, gave into temptation and turned against Yah, as we read in 2 Peter 2:15. Now whether this occurred before the Moabite women were sent into Israel I can’t be sure, but it’s interesting that the one who originally resisted temptation to “curse” Israel was no longer on Yah’s side when the corruption of Israel occurred.]

Because of this assault against the Law, Yah commands “Vex the Midianites and smite them for they vex you with their [women’s feminine] wiles, wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor (the Israelite male who was seduced to sin), and in the matter of Cozbi (the seducer), the daughter of the prince of Midian.” (Num 25:17-18)

The women were the chief transgressors sent to destroy Israel from the inside using their own bodies. So the generals of Israel destroyed the army of Midian, however they saved ALL the women and children...but it was the women who brought in the corruption and caused Israel to break the law! So Moses said “kill all of the males [as boys grow up into men who’d war to avenge their fathers] and women who were not virgins [as these women used their bodies as weapons to corrupt Israel]”. The female children and women virgins were to be kept alive as bond-women/servants (Num 31:18).

So slavery was a level of mercy for these virgin women who didn’t use their bodies in the attack on Israel (otherwise they would’ve been killed also).

---

But I think the real question is “how were these slaves treated?” What is Slavery from a Hebrew perspective…how is any slavery morally condoned?

I can image how most people imagine slavery for these women and children; conjuring images of how blacks and women were mistreated as such in human history by their masters…but I tell you, humanity's use of slavery is a perversion/corruption of how slavery was originally meant from Yah’s point of view.

Slavery is a method of payment when payment can’t be made; a result of debt. When one can’t pay, they enter into servitude (for a time) to pay. The nation of Midian sinned against Yah by corrupting Israel to break the law. All deserved to die. However, Moses spared the virgin women. So these women & children owed Israel their lives; indebted to Israel for sparing them and ALSO because they wouldn’t have been able to support themselves without their own men (at the time).

Hebrew Concept of Slavery“The owner is required to supply Hebrew slaves, whether male or female, with the same quality of food and drink, clothing and living accommodations as his own, as it states 'for he is happy with you' (Deut 15:16), which the rabbis interpret as meaning that the master may not eat good quality bread and serve the slave inferior quality bread, that the master may not drink old wine and serve the servant new wine, that the master may not sleep on feathers and the slave sleep on straw. The Sages say that the one who buys a slave for himself is really buying a master for himself.

So if I’m eating, drinking, sleeping and dressing well and if I’m following the law of Yah you can guarantee my slave is as rich as I am! And if Im following the Law, my slave is NOT supposed to do demeaning or fruitless labor but is to work off his/her debt. And in the jubilee year my slave has the free choice to leave me or to stay with me (Deut 15:16), as his debt to me has been paid in full.

“Finally, the Torah protects the female slave's honor and commands the master either to marry her or to give her to his son in marriage, and if not, ‘she shall go free, without payment" (Ex. 21:11), i.e., without having to pay for her freedom’”...in the Jubilee year.

(encyclopedia of Judaism: Slavery; Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/slavery#ixzz19cEj8uyk (http://www.answers.com/topic/slavery#ixzz19cEj8uyk))

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Graybeard on December 30, 2010, 01:17:37 PM
[incomplete explanation deleted]

So slavery was a level of mercy for these virgin women who didn’t use their bodies in the attack on Israel (otherwise they would’ve been killed also).
I think the phrase you are seeking is, "Yes, I now find that non-debt related enslavement ordained by Yah, is in the Bible."

Quote
But I think the real question is “how were these slaves treated?”
No, you have got that one completely wrong - no one asked that question.

(Why do so many theists start with, "I think the real question is, <insert something to which you can give a half-arsed answer.>"

If they had asked that question, you would be able to reply, "As anyone might treat their property."
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: sammylama on December 30, 2010, 01:31:29 PM

<snip for space>


What a complete load of bunk.  You managed to cherry-pick your way through scripture and wiggle your way through with an array of mental gymnastics that just has me shaking my head.  This is what christians do.  It's what they have to do in order to continue to believe. 

Let's hear your take on how to beat your slaves properly, and why it's okay to do so.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 30, 2010, 02:15:44 PM
Thanks for explaining that the instance mentioned by Historicity was one of non-debt related slavery. You've underlined why that slavery is completely different than how you characterize it in your failed analogy from earlier.

All this saves me the trouble of listing the other instances of it, in order to show your argument's frailty.

Best of luck re-working your rationalization to make it effective outside your own mind.
 

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 30, 2010, 02:20:55 PM
Best of luck re-working your rationalization to make it effective outside your own mind.

Why do they waste so much time and effort to rationalize this stuff? Don't they have anything better to do?

They must really think they are going to spend eternity in paradise because they are squandering their lives on stuff that is dead obvious nonsense.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: naemhni on December 30, 2010, 02:29:42 PM
Why do they waste so much time and effort to rationalize this stuff? Don't they have anything better to do?

We're talking about people who (with rare exceptions) have been indoctrinated into a particular worldview from a very early age and generally just presuppose that it's correct.  When that worldview comes under attack, they probably feel threatened and alarmed, even though the attack is aimed at the ideas, not the person himself.

Never having had to suffer thru the deconversion process myself, it's hard for me to know what that must be like, but if I had to compare it to anything I might be able to relate to, I would think it would be like seeing your spouse becoming increasingly attracted to another person and your being frantic to avoid losing the one you love.  (Can one of the deconverted here enlighten me?)  It's no small wonder that these people fight so hard to hang onto their beliefs.  If they were to lose those beliefs, it would change their life completely -- in a way that they think would be extremely horrible.

I think the "saving the lost" thing is probably also a factor, but I think the self-interest is probably the more important element by a fairly large margin.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 30, 2010, 02:32:57 PM
One sec, Jeff...I'm typing responses to you...


<snip for space>


What a complete load of bunk.  You managed to cherry-pick your way through scripture and wiggle your way through with an array of mental gymnastics that just has me shaking my head.  This is what christians do.  It's what they have to do in order to continue to believe. 

Let's hear your take on how to beat your slaves properly, and why it's okay to do so.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


Talk about cherry-picking. I give the entire context and then a source from descendants of those who actually wrote the passage so you can read and you first "snip" (interesting you admit to it) and then present a question based on a verse you yourself cherry-picked out of context. Why don't you read it from the beginning of 21?

All together now..."if you beat your slave, and they die, you will be punished ("put to death" in context of the chapter). If the slave survives (lives; is fine) after a day or two, the owner is not punished ("put to death"), since he owns the slave. The context is explaining the concept of "life for a life"; DO NOT COMMIT MURDER. Does this contradict anything I previously wrote?

Read, dude.

Thanks for explaining that the instance mentioned by Historicity was one of non-debt related slavery. You've underlined why that slavery is completely different than how you characterize it in your failed analogy from earlier.

All this saves me the trouble of listing the other instances of it, in order to show your argument's frailty.

Best of luck re-working your rationalization to make it effective outside your own mind.

Are you serious!? Man...I'm convinced while some of you are willing to have an honest conversation, others just like to hear/read themselves talk/speak...with no substance; without using the quoted source (the scripture in context) to defend your argument. Some of you guys just say stuff with no proof but will wait for others to help them on their OWN point.

Why do they waste so much time and effort to rationalize this stuff? Don't they have anything better to do?

They must really think they are going to spend eternity in paradise because they are squandering their lives on stuff that is dead obvious nonsense.

...And then others wait to piggyback as if they were willing to stand on their own to begin with, when in reality they were hoping someone else answered the challenge first.

----

It's all ridiculous and silly.


Sorry, Jeff...one sec...


Edit: [words light fuse to this thread...waits for it...]

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 30, 2010, 02:36:52 PM
...And then others wait to piggyback as if they were willing to stand on their own to begin with, when in reality they were hoping someone else answered the challenge first.

Lol, take a look at my post count. I've answered plenty of challenges.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: sammylama on December 30, 2010, 02:47:04 PM
One sec, Jeff...I'm typing responses to you...


<snip for space>


What a complete load of bunk.  You managed to cherry-pick your way through scripture and wiggle your way through with an array of mental gymnastics that just has me shaking my head.  This is what christians do.  It's what they have to do in order to continue to believe. 

Let's hear your take on how to beat your slaves properly, and why it's okay to do so.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


Talk about cherry-picking. I give the entire context and then a source from descendants of those who actually wrote the passage so you can read and you first "snip" (interesting you admit to it) and then present a question based on a verse you yourself cherry-picked out of context. Why don't you read it from the beginning of 21?

Of course I admit that I snipped it.  It's forum etiquette.  It's already been laid out for anyone to read. 

I did read it from the beginning.  Don't make assumptions.

Providing an example that opposes your point of view is not cherry picking.

Quote
All together now..."if you beat your slave, and they die, you will be punished ("put to death" in context of the chapter). If the slave survives (lives; is fine) after a day or two, the owner is not punished ("put to death"), since he owns the slave. The context is explaining the concept of "life for a life"; DO NOT COMMIT MURDER. Does this contradict anything I previously wrote?

What a surprise.  Another christian who gets sarcastic and defensive when he's called out.

Quote
Read, dude.

Fuck off, dude.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Agamemnon on December 30, 2010, 02:56:41 PM
So we can assume that Joshua thinks it's OK to beat slaves to within an inch of their lives, just so long as they don't die within a day or two of the beating... Wow.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on December 30, 2010, 03:15:37 PM
So we can assume that Joshua thinks it's OK to beat slaves to within an inch of their lives, just so long as they don't die within a day or two of the beating... Wow.

Yes read MORE into it than what it says, that's always good ("undead" post).

What a surprise.  Another christian who gets sarcastic and defensive when he's called out.

Not a christian (assumption). Sarcastic?  Yes, sir!

Fuck off, dude.

lol. You've expressed the underlying feeling of a lot of people here on this forum (when an outsider comes in and tries to proselytize)...but most won't admit to it. They'll hide behind their vast intellegence (and there are indeed vast intellegences as members here) to try to scare people away, while others will use tried & true scenarios to attempt to trick and trap the "believer" who hasn't studied their own faith (or who are more faithful to their religion than to the truth)...and then there are some who will consider and argue and conclude as the argument and proof leads...which hasn't been successful in the consideration of a "belief in Yah"

Well at least you're more honest than most (and I respect that).

EDIT: I've got to step out for now but I will reply to you next, Jeff...I'll be back.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Dante on December 30, 2010, 03:16:44 PM

Hebrew Concept of Slavery“The owner is required to supply Hebrew slaves, whether male or female, with the same quality of food and drink, clothing and living accommodations as his own, as it states 'for he is happy with you' (Deut 15:16), which the rabbis interpret as meaning that the master may not eat good quality bread and serve the slave inferior quality bread, that the master may not drink old wine and serve the servant new wine, that the master may not sleep on feathers and the slave sleep on straw. The Sages say that the one who buys a slave for himself is really buying a master for himself.

So if I’m eating, drinking, sleeping and dressing well and if I’m following the law of Yah you can guarantee my slave is as rich as I am! And if Im following the Law, my slave is NOT supposed to do demeaning or fruitless labor but is to work off his/her debt. And in the jubilee year my slave has the free choice to leave me or to stay with me (Deut 15:16), as his debt to me has been paid in full.


How does this address the subject of how to beat your slaves?


All together now..."if you beat your slave, and they die, you will be punished ("put to death" in context of the chapter). If the slave survives (lives; is fine) after a day or two, the owner is not punished ("put to death"), since he owns the slave. The context is explaining the concept of "life for a life"; DO NOT COMMIT MURDER. Does this contradict anything I previously wrote?


Ah, but this part does address it. Shall we assume that you don't find that the lack of condemnation for beating your slave (such that he does not die) does not mean your god condones corporal beatings? Because I think most logical minds would assume it so. I would come to this conclusion after reading your quote above, that killing a slave deserves punishment (Why death? Does it specifically state that?), but if the slave does not die, the owner is not punished. Read that again; if the slave does not die, the owner is not punished! Implicitly, your god has no problems with his chosen peoples beating a slave as long as they don’t kill it.

Loving god my ass.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: sammylama on December 30, 2010, 03:31:04 PM
What a surprise.  Another christian who gets sarcastic and defensive when he's called out.

Not a christian (assumption). Sarcastic?  Yes, sir!

Okay.  Got me on that one.  Props.

Fuck off, dude.

lol. You've expressed the underlying feeling of a lot of people here on this forum (when an outsider comes in and tries to proselytize)...but most won't admit to it. They'll hide behind their vast intellegence (and there are indeed vast intellegences as members here) to try to scare people away, while others will use tried & true scenarios to attempt to trick and trap the "believer" who hasn't studied their own faith (or who are more faithful to their religion than to the truth)...and then there are some who will consider and argue and conclude as the argument and proof leads.

Well at least you're more honest than most (and I respect that).

Well, maybe not quite so deep here.  Although I admit that I am a fairly incredible guy, I was really just shooting a round back at you.  I like it when a response catches me off guard.   

Still in disagreement on the whole slavery thing, though...
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: lost_ti_bon_ange on December 30, 2010, 03:49:49 PM
For instance [of slavery],
Quote
Exodus 31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was 675,000 sheep, And 12,060 beeves, And 1,060 asses,

31:35 And 32,000 persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

(The correct source is Numbers 31:32, 35) The issue was whether this was "debt based" slavery or "non-debt". It was a "debt based" slavery.



This is a debt:
Me: “I would like to have that object you possess; how much do you want for it?”
You: “I want X amount for it.”
M: “OK, I agree to give you X amount for it, but I don’t have that much in my possession at this time. Can we make a payment arrangement?”
Y: “Fine. You give me Y amount over Z months to equal the sum of X and it is yours.”
M: “Cool.”

THIS is revenge - NOT a debt.
Me: “Hey You, come live like I do.”
You: “Sorry nope, my dad told me not to.”
M: (shakes naughty bits in front of you) “You can have this if you live like I do.”
Y: “Hell yeah!”
Your Pops to Me: I shall kill your family and you and own your 8 year old daughter as my property for the rest of my days for convincing my boy to live like you!”


It really bothers me how you try to turn revenge against another into a debt (something one agrees to) that the muredered and enslaved owed to the attacker. The Israelite's may have been tempted and failed to resist, but that is NOT the fault of those that tempted. For that matter, according to the story, it doesn't look like they even know the terms of the 'arrangment', let alone agreed to them!


*edit: resit to resist

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Graybeard on December 30, 2010, 04:57:01 PM
Talk about cherry-picking. I give the entire context and then a source from descendants of those who actually wrote the passage so you can read and you first "snip" (interesting you admit to it) and then present a question based on a verse you yourself cherry-picked out of context. Why don't you read it from the beginning of 21?
Because your explanation does not include an apology for maintaining that non-debt slave holding is not supported by God.

On top of that, the reason that the women who had known a man were killed was a warped idea of genetics – once a woman had been sullied by a non-believer, the idiot bronze-age tribesmen believed that the influence of the first man would rest inside her and come out in future generations, regardless of whom the father was.

Quote
All together now..."if you beat your slave, and they die, you will be punished […] Does this contradict anything I previously wrote?
Does it have anything to do with non-debt slave holding?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 30, 2010, 06:10:57 PM
Quote from: joshua
Are you serious!? Man...I'm convinced while some of you are willing to have an honest conversation, others just like to hear/read themselves talk/speak...with no substance; without using the quoted source (the scripture in context) to defend your argument. Some of you guys just say stuff with no proof but will wait for others to help them on their OWN point.

Yes and no. I find this whole discussion on the attributes of your imaginary friends on par with discussing a story book with a child. That you are an adult only adds another facet to the whole experience. Belief behaviour as it manifests itself in individuals like you is interesting, but a bit pathetic and troubling. If that upsets you, that's really too bad. 

Historicity provided an example of slavery that wasn't related to debt (debt as characterized by your earlier rationalizing analogy). Your subsequent analysis and excuse was not satisfactory. An objective FAIL. Your own estimation of it doesn't change that. Why not explain how it does not satisfy, you might ask? Why indeed.

In your mind, I can see how you really have one option, it must be the fault of those who think your contorted rationalization is faulty. Given the ridiculous lengths you will go to in order to work the narrative into your narrow delusion, I can only assume that the only way to reality for you is to discover it on your own, without much more than a few objective external prompts.

It's becoming pretty clear that you can twist anything to justify a tenaciously held belief for reasons outside of basic reason, or common sense (let me guess, you're partially a musical learner). I would not illogically attempt to use such tools to help you. Or, the character you are attempting to portray for forum amusement.

I waited for historicity to help me on my own point, eh? Another delusion added to the list.   

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on December 31, 2010, 05:20:58 PM
Moabite women began infiltrating Israel. Using their sexuality, the Moabite women tempted Israel’s males to break the law [no idolatry; no fornication outside of marriage] by worship false gods and through whoredom, defiling the holy place...
<snip>
Because of this assault against the Law, ...

The women were the chief transgressors sent to destroy Israel from the inside using their own bodies.

I have to ask, are you out of your gourd?  Women infiltrating israel, trying to destroy it through idolatry and "whoredom"?  This is so preposterously stupid, I am at a loss for words.  How in the world does idolatry harm a country?  In what way was their alleged whoredom a national, existential problem?

And is it really their fault?  Why do you blame the women who tempted the jews and not the men who succumbed?   That is like blaming a rape victim for dressing too sexy. 

There is something seriously wrong with you. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on January 03, 2011, 12:30:46 PM
Sorry to throw this conversation backwards a bit (after a few days of absence), but I promised Jeff a response (and then I’ll respond to you guys)…

Alright Joshua, then show me how to pray to Yah in the way you want, and I will see if it's true.  Or better yet, if you think you meet all of your own criteria, YOU do it and prove your point with a verifiable, repeatable, falsifiable test procedure.  Or best... find someone you think epitomizes and exemplifies ALL of your criteria and have them do repeated intercessory prayers and see what happens.

[...]

I don't worship any deity.  Nobody is stealing my worship.  I think all previously postulated god(s) are simply not real.

I already presented the “how”. This was the whole reason for your series of replies to me; to prove that my given stipulations weren’t needed [and BTW – it’s interesting that you mention a moment when I misspelled the word “stipulation” when you obviously (a) understood which word I meant and (b) actually referenced an earlier quote when I spelled it correctly in my post…so what was your reason in pointing it out, I wonder?].

You claim that there are specific requirements to be met by someone who prays that will enhance the possibility of receiving an answer to a prayer

No…you claim such; the premise that “prayer” (itself) is the source of the “answer” to it, which you argue doesn’t work – because you argue it works sometimes regardless of stipulations. No. I’m claiming that “prayer” is a communication tool to WHOMEVER you choose to communicate, and then I provided the means by which you communicate “to Yah”…and if you don’t “dial the right number” (stipulations) you can’t call to the person you desire, no matter how badly you want to (or think you are), right? This says NOTHING about "inaccessibility" but about the fact that there is but one way to get “to Yah”, just like there is an exact series of numbers to dial for any specific person’s phone in the entire world [acknowledging that people can get business lines, additional numbers tied to a phone, etc., but a number must be dialed "exactly": from beginning to end]. I guess you can argue that prayer “to yah” shouldn’t be this exact, but why do we readily accept such exactness when dialing each other's phone numbers (rather than saying “oh, the phone should know who I mean to call, so I expect it to make the right connection regardless of MY error in dialing”)?

…and all of this is merely to establish a communication “specifically with Yah”. Isn't it true that if you dial a wrong number you get someone/something else? Isn't this true?


Do you really think it's surprising that a religion that was formed amidst many, many other competing religions would have a phrase in it's holy book about other dieties who want to steal worship?

I dunno. I haven’t been talking about a religion, but about communication with Yah. I haven’t said one thing about any religion (maybe I should create a signature that says “I’m not part of a religion”).

How do you know that?  How can you possibly know my current standing with what you consider to be the most powerful being in the universe?

…Because you told me, yourself. You don’t believe in Yah at all (“you can’t dial the right number without the first digit”). This is the first step, so to say.

If you claim I can't pray to Yah, then how am I ever supposed to get to know Yah in the first place?  What does it take to know this Yah character you keep talking about?  And don't give me that wishy, washy "you have to ask with all your heart" bull, because I'm not a 5 year old.  I won't simply fall for that trick, where I either ask for the rest of my natural life, or I convince myself that this Yah character exists.  I need some sort of timeline.  How long do I "seek" Yah before I give up and am allowed to say "Nope, Yah isn't real."  I need some sort of way to know that I am "right" with Yah.  I'm not just going to take your word for it either way.  Obviously he's not someone that people know about.

Man…you paint yourself in a corner, dude (and from the votes it seems like most want to also): first you want a timeline for when you can “not believe in him anymore” assuming yourself to have initially taken a full plunge (even though, with this “timeline” business, one foot’s in the water while the other’s safe on the dock)…and then you don’t’ want anyone to tell you about him (much less me, even though you ask ME the question)…contrarily, you assume to know Yah to say it’s obvious “he’s not someone that people know about”, but how do you know this if you’ve admitted to not knowing him (rhetorical)?

Well, I’m not going to tell you about Yah...and I'm not going to give you some bubbly, feel-good message. If you believe Yah is all in my head, then I invite you to simply witness my character during my time on this forum; learn me. I use things we naturally understand to explain his character, because “…his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So [we] are without [any] excuse.” (Romans 1:20).

I’m not asking you to believe, but this exercise will – however - require you to open your mind (more so than it is currently). I mean…if Yah’s character is all in my head, then I - as a specimen or reflection - should be sufficient enough to understand Yah, right? The burden is still on me.
   
Joshua, please, you have got to start thinking a bit here. ...[

I AM thinking, Jeff. I think that's the problem with many of you; that you automatically associate "belief in a deity" with "non-thought" when such a belief is a conclusion of merely thinking in a different direction; coming to a different conclusion.

Belief in a deity comes from a neutral place of initial curiosity ("Is there a higher power or not?"), not a biased one ("there is a higher power, so I'm going to find proof..."). There are many who can explain the "how" to many things; the intricacies, and yet when asked to explain "why" they confuse "detailed functions" with "reasons for those functions"...and to make it worse, most stop there, assuming that the "how" IS the"why". Take over-the-counter medicines, for instance; there is no medicine that cures an underlying problem or disease. Medicines merely cure "simptoms" while the body works through the REAL problem...and we accept this, (why) because sadly we've been convinced to believe that a simptom IS a problem; that a "detailed function" is the "source of the function". No one can explain the "why"; the zero-point, initial reason for any of it...but we all know - for a fact - that there exists a "why" (somewhere), an initial starting point for these things, otherwise these things could not be.

I am asking you to respond directly and comment on what I am about to write, OK?  Don't dodge it, don't go around it, answer these questions honestly....

(continued in my next post)...
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on January 03, 2011, 01:32:39 PM
Given the complete lack of verifiable evidence that any prayer has EVER actually been answered by an act of a supernatural entity...[

If we're going to tackle this question honestly, we must be fair with the initial assumption of a "lack of verifiable evidence". Will you agree that we can't base your question on this because (a) my side can be accused of evidence bias, while (b) your side can be accused of denial of evidence or choosing something that goes against the rules (i.e. "regeneration of amputations")? What possible evidence do BOTH sides agree to as being neutral? I could give my pieces of evidence but to you it's all heresay (I think that's the right term)...there isn't any evidence that is accepted by both sides so we can't base your question on this foundation. I'm not dodging but please be fair.

..., is it not possible that there is nothing out there that answers prayer in the first place?   Is it not possible that the "other" thing that you say answers my prayer is not a "thing" at all, and is nothing more than normal circumstances that happen to occur, and my prayer had no bearing at all on the outcome of what I prayed for?  And if that is possibly true, is it also not possible that all of your excuses and criteria are nothing more than the rationalizations that you have come up with to explain this scenario in detail, without having to give up your belief in your invisible surrogate parent?  Think about it, please.  I am talking possibilities here, not certainties.  Where does that logically fall apart for you?

Do you agree with my previous post that explains "prayer" as a "communication tool" (like a phone, and all similar rules that follow)? If so, will you agree that this line of questioning follows the wrong logical path as mapped out by your initial assumption, if your initial assumption is incorrect? Regardless, I understand your point, namely that "there is no possible deity that exists to whom to pray"...so we will attempt to prove OR disprove the possibility of this deity's existence.

We're going to take this a step at a time (and anyone else feel free to join in as I'm interested in your views as well)...

1. I am who I am...I exist

Questions: Do YOU exist right now? If so...how am I able to know this as verifiable truth? What proof is there that YOU exist, in my eyes and mind?
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Larissa238 on January 03, 2011, 01:40:14 PM
I exist, and you know this to be true because I'm communicating clearly with you. We speak the same language, and I am giving a coherent response to something you articulated. This message is proof I exist. There is no 40-year gap between my existence and the message being written, no myths involved with magical beings, and no way to construe what I'm saying into anything else.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on January 03, 2011, 11:28:32 PM
Sorry to throw this conversation backwards a bit (after a few days of absence), but I promised Jeff a response (and then I’ll respond to you guys)…

I appreciate your time.

I already presented the “how”.

Yes, but I am calling them nothing but baseless assertions.  Just because you said a bunch of stuff about how you think you communicate with Yah, doesn't mean any of it is true. 

This was the whole reason for your series of replies to me; to prove that my given stipulations weren’t needed [and BTW – it’s interesting that you mention a moment when I misspelled the word “stipulation” when you obviously (a) understood which word I meant and (b) actually referenced an earlier quote when I spelled it correctly in my post…so what was your reason in pointing it out, I wonder?].

I thought it was funny in a Sarah Palin / G.W. Bush sort of way.  Like refudiate, or misunderestimated.  Nothing more.  I wonder why you felt the need to call me out on such a small issue.  All I did was put it in parenthesis.  That's not exactly making a federal case out of it. 

No…you claim such; the premise that “prayer” (itself) is the source of the “answer” to it, which you argue doesn’t work – because you argue it works sometimes regardless of stipulations.

Are you denying that prayer can sometimes "appears" to work regardless of meeting your stipulations? 

No. I’m claiming that “prayer” is a communication tool to WHOMEVER you choose to communicate, and then I provided the means by which you communicate “to Yah”…and if you don’t “dial the right number” (stipulations) you can’t call to the person you desire, no matter how badly you want to (or think you are), right?

If you want to use phone analogies here, that's fine.  Keeping with it, I simply say that you are using a toy phone.  When you call someone on a toy phone, you ALSO will not get the person you desire, no matter how badly you want to.  Or, what if nobody lived at the number you are calling?   

This says NOTHING about "inaccessibility" but about the fact that there is but one way to get “to Yah”, just like there is an exact series of numbers to dial for any specific person’s phone in the entire world [acknowledging that people can get business lines, additional numbers tied to a phone, etc., but a number must be dialed "exactly": from beginning to end]. I guess you can argue that prayer “to yah” shouldn’t be this exact, but why do we readily accept such exactness when dialing each other's phone numbers (rather than saying “oh, the phone should know who I mean to call, so I expect it to make the right connection regardless of MY error in dialing”)?

I get the analogy you are trying to make.  I think it's bad in this case, but I am honestly trying to see things from your side here.  Really I am.  And I give you a free pass with all the business line / cell line stuff too.  There really might be one specific phone line to talk to Yah.  And it might be possible that Yah is screening his caller ID and not picking up on people he doesn't want to talk to.  That is a possibility that I can't brush aside simply because it seems loony to me when speaking about an omniscient, omnipotent being (which it does).  All that being said...  You are proposing there is some sort of special hotline to Yah, and I am going to ask you some questions about it...

So let's say for the sake of argument that there IS a specific line you need to use to get to Yah.

A. How do you know that you are doing it right?
B. What criteria do you use to judge whether or not you are actually communicating with this Yah of yours? 
C. What evidence can you present that you are correct? Can you prove it? 
D. Who told you how to get to Yah and why is that information not readily available to everyone else?
E. Why would Yah make it so difficult to talk to him? 
F. If someone is trying desperately to communicate with Yah, wouldn't he know it?  And why would he consistently turns his/her back on them just because they are "dialing the wrong number"? 

…and all of this is merely to establish a communication “specifically with Yah”. Isn't it true that if you dial a wrong number you get someone/something else? Isn't this true?

Joshua, it just seems really stupid to me to think that the most powerful being in the universe requires us to jump through hoops for him just to give us a shred of attention.   

I dunno. I haven’t been talking about a religion, but about communication with Yah. I haven’t said one thing about any religion (maybe I should create a signature that says “I’m not part of a religion”).

Oh, so this whole thing is something you came up with on your own?  The OP was about 10 questions every intelligent Christian must answer.  Sorry, I assumed you were here to answer the 10 questions that every Christian must answer.  My bad.

…Because you told me, yourself. You don’t believe in Yah at all (“you can’t dial the right number without the first digit”). This is the first step, so to say.

But you do right?  And I assume you meet all the other criteria right?  Or at least, someone on this planet meets all your criteria, right?  All I am saying is if you really believe this stuff, prove it and I will believe you.  Prove that someone who meets all of your criteria can actually communicate with this Yah character.  And if you can't, why should I even remotely believe you at all? 

Man…you paint yourself in a corner, dude (and from the votes it seems like most want to also): first you want a timeline for when you can “not believe in him anymore” assuming yourself to have initially taken a full plunge (even though, with this “timeline” business, one foot’s in the water while the other’s safe on the dock)…

No Joshua.  That's not what I said at all.  You need to go back and read what I actually said.  What I said was that I am not going to ask "with all my heart" with an indefinite time line.  What that turns into is either deluding myself into believing in Yah, or I simply keep asking "with all my heart" until I die.  Here is an analogy to show you what I mean.

Say you and I are standing on the beach and you pick up a rock.  You look at it and you say to me, "If you say "fly away rock" with all your heart, then this rock will leap into the air and spin in circles."  So I say, "Alright!" and I say it... and say it... and say it.... over and over again.  When I look at you and say, "it's not happening", you simply say "you aren't saying it with all your heart!"  At what point in time am I allowed to simply say you are wrong? THAT'S what I mean.  If I am to believe you, then every time the rock doesn't fly away, it's MY fault.  I am trapped into saying "fly away rock" until either it flies away, or I die.  It's all a trick.  Like I said, I'm not 5.  I see the trick.   

and then you don’t’ want anyone to tell you about him (much less me, even though you ask ME the question)…contrarily, you assume to know Yah to say it’s obvious “he’s not someone that people know about”, but how do you know this if you’ve admitted to not knowing him (rhetorical)?

If I didn't want you to tell me about him, then I wouldn't ask.  But what I said is that I am not going to simply take your word as the truth without some sort of proof.  Is that really so hard to understand here?  If I told you about Blearf, would you simply take my word that everything I say about Blearf is true without any sort of proof? 

I say he is not someone that people know about because I don't hear anyone else claiming that a diety behaves like yours does. 

Well, I’m not going to tell you about Yah...and I'm not going to give you some bubbly, feel-good message. If you believe Yah is all in my head, then I invite you to simply witness my character during my time on this forum; learn me.

I'm trying.  And I don't want a feel good message...  I want the truth.  That's it.  I don't think you have it.  So far you are just like all the other people who come here and say stuff that they are unwilling (really unable) to prove.  Your character says nothing about whether this Yah character is true. 

I use things we naturally understand to explain his character, because “…his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So [we] are without [any] excuse.” (Romans 1:20).

That is how ancient man envisioned God because they were ignorant.  They didn't know anywhere NEAR the amount of stuff we know today.  They believed that the earth was flat, that it was the center of the universe, that rain came from God, that thunder and lightning was Gods wrath, that earthquakes were God's rage, that burning sacrificial animals was pleasing to God, and so many other really stupid things.  Have you ever stopped to think that they were just flat out wrong?  Science explains how our world came to be about 4 billion years ago.  We have explanations.  Lots of them.  We don't need ancient thinking to carry us anymore.  We really know enough now to say that a diety was not required in order for our universe to exist.  So his eternal power and divine nature WERE perceived by an ignorant people in an ancient time, because they had no other explanations for the world around them.  This is 2011 now.  We have explanations.  And every time we learn something new about our universe, another nail goes into coffin of the God theory. 

I’m not asking you to believe, but this exercise will – however - require you to open your mind (more so than it is currently). I mean…if Yah’s character is all in my head, then I - as a specimen or reflection - should be sufficient enough to understand Yah, right? The burden is still on me.

If Yah is all in your head, then really, you would be the only one that understands Yah.  It seems this is exactly what's happening, doesn't it? 
   
Belief in a deity comes from a neutral place of initial curiosity ("Is there a higher power or not?"), not a biased one ("there is a higher power, so I'm going to find proof...").

This would be the case for very, very few people Joshua.  Belief in a diety can come from a variety of places, but natural curiosity is not usually where belief comes from.  Childhood indoctrination, peer pressure, the need for a surrogate parent, etc, etc.  When someone finds themself doing honest inquiry into the question "Is there a higher power", if they use the normal methods of determining truth (reason, logic and evidence from ALL available sources) then there is no possible way to come out believing in the Christian God.  I don't know about this Yah character you keep mentioning, but a reasonable, logical, non-faith based assessment of "Is the God of the bible true?" will result in a resounding no.   


There are many who can explain the "how" to many things; the intricacies, and yet when asked to explain "why" they confuse "detailed functions" with "reasons for those functions"...and to make it worse, most stop there, assuming that the "how" IS the"why".

The question of "why" is presumptuous.  All of this could simply exist as a function of a completely natural universe.  In that case, "why" is not an applicable question.  The universe simply is.   In all honesty, there doesn't need to be a "why". 

Take over-the-counter medicines, for instance; there is no medicine that cures an underlying problem or disease. Medicines merely cure "simptoms" while the body works through the REAL problem...and we accept this, (why) because sadly we've been convinced to believe that a simptom IS a problem; that a "detailed function" is the "source of the function".

As a member of the medical profession, (practicing physical therapist X 12 years) I can tell you right now that you are 100% wrong here.  Just look at any bacterial infection.  Bacterial infection is caused by an invasive bacteria that gets into our system and multiplies out of control, killing lots of cells in the area.  An antibiotic literally goes to the site and kills all the bacteria for us.  The actual problem is the bacteria.  The symptoms can be pain, swelling, heat, redness, etc.  The problem is the bacteria.  Antibiotics kill bacteria... the actual problem. 

Maybe you need to learn something about medicine before you go all "conspiracy theory" on everyone.  I will give you that many medicines only mask symptoms (you did spell it wrong twice, and btw, Sarah Palin would spell it simptoms too, lol... oh relax, I'm just having fun) but oftentimes masking the symptoms will allow someone to work through their problems easier and allow the body to heal.

No one can explain the "why"; the zero-point, initial reason for any of it...but we all know - for a fact - that there exists a "why" (somewhere), an initial starting point for these things, otherwise these things could not be.

Whether or not this satisfies your obsessive need to have the "why" question answered, I already explained to you that there doesn't need to be an answer to the "why" question.  But what do you mean by "initial starting point"?

If you are just talking about an infection, sure there's a "why". The "why" is the bacteria.  You got an infection because the bacteria got into your body.  I'm not sure if this is where you are going here, but let's follow this...  If you want to ask "why" did the bacteria get into the body, then you can say "because you got a cut".  If you want to say "why did you get the cut", then you can say I scraped it on a nail.  Then, then, then, then, creating an infinite regression of "why" questions that inevitably ends with the beginning of our universe and a being that you have invented (arbitrarily and without hard evidence) as the ultimate answer to the "why" question... and you named it Yah.  But why stop there?   This simply makes me want to ask "why does Yah exist?". Does Yah simply exist as the ultimate "why" answer?  If your answer is yes, prove it.  It all comes back to that, doesn't it? 

At some point, 14 billion years ago, our universe began.  That's what we do know.  That information does not, not for a single second, point to any specific or unspecific diety at all.  For all we know, our universe could have begun with the collision of 2 larger universes that exist in a giant cosmos FILLED with universes.  So you could say our universe exists because 2 large universes collided... and then you will want to say "why"? We simply have no more information to speculate on.  At that point, it is far better to say "I don't know" than to arbitrarily pick Yah as your starting point, don't you think?   

I too will split the response here...
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on January 04, 2011, 12:27:34 AM
If we're going to tackle this question honestly, we must be fair with the initial assumption of a "lack of verifiable evidence". Will you agree that we can't base your question on this because (a) my side can be accused of evidence bias, while (b) your side can be accused of denial of evidence or choosing something that goes against the rules (i.e. "regeneration of amputations")? What possible evidence do BOTH sides agree to as being neutral? I could give my pieces of evidence but to you it's all heresay (I think that's the right term)...there isn't any evidence that is accepted by both sides so we can't base your question on this foundation. I'm not dodging but please be fair.

All you need to ask yourself is how much and what type of evidence would it take for me to convince you that Zeus is real.  You should be quite skeptical of that claim.  I probably need that much.  So why don't you start there?   

What I am talking about is repeatable, measurable, evidence.  Something where you say "Jeff, if you do X, Yah will do Y every time".  In your post that I first responded to, it seemed like you were doing EXACTLY that.  It seemed to me that you were saying, "If you meet all these criteria, then Yah WILL talk to you."  Just prove it!  It shouldn't be that hard if it's true.  Just look at something like gravity.  You could say "Jeff, every time you drop a rock, it will fall toward the earth."  I could do that experiment.  It would prove gravity to me.  Really simple stuff.  If you don't have that, then I need some sort of evidence that an occurrence happened that defied the natural laws of the universe that could ONLY be done by Yah and no other diety.  Like if the "miracle on the Hudson" actually ended with a true miracle (like the Hudson river turned to concrete or something, and the word YAH was written all over the concrete). 

Do you agree with my previous post that explains "prayer" as a "communication tool" (like a phone, and all similar rules that follow)?

If you are saying that intercessory prayer is completely useless, then sure, I will agree with that.  Prayer could be a communication tool, sure.  The big problem, however, is then proving that you are actually communicating with said diety.  It just makes your job a lot harder if you ask me.  It would be much simpler to prove that you asked for something and Yah gave it to you. 

It's predictable though.  It's a lot easier to simply say prayer is a communication tool and then not have to prove it, than to prove that Yah actually did something for you. 

If so, will you agree that this line of questioning follows the wrong logical path as mapped out by your initial assumption, if your initial assumption is incorrect?

My initial assumption was that you believed praying to Yah was actually useful in some way, but only if you met your criteria.  While I did not think specifically of the way it was useful (communication or intercessory), if all you meant was that you have to meet all of your criteria to even communicate with Yah, then that is clear now. 

Regardless, I understand your point, namely that "there is no possible deity that exists to whom to pray"...so we will attempt to prove OR disprove the possibility of this deity's existence.

No, Joshua.  Close but not quite.   I absolutely (always have) concede that it is possible that there is a diety out there.  That is possible.  You don't have to prove that a diety is possible.  What I take issue with is your notion that not only is Yah real, but if you meet all sorts of unprovable conditions, then you can actually talk to it. 

I think you have it in your mind that I want nothing more than to prove you wrong... but all I want you to do is show the evidence that makes you think you're right.  I am highly skeptical of your beliefs, and contrary to what some people think, skepticism is a WONDERFUL thing.  It tends to weed out the crap.  People should be skeptical of all claims that can't be backed up with reasonably convincing evidence.     

We're going to take this a step at a time (and anyone else feel free to join in as I'm interested in your views as well)...

1. I am who I am...I exist

Questions: Do YOU exist right now? If so...how am I able to know this as verifiable truth? What proof is there that YOU exist, in my eyes and mind?

Jesus Christ man.  Do you think nobody has ever gone this route before?  Can we please not go here?  It's nothing but an annoying dead end.  If someone else here wants to take you on the nutty ride that is the philosophy around "how do you know I exist", then please do it, because I won't.  I've been here before with other people and it just gets stupid, and before long the original topic of discussion is lost.  We'll end up talking about the "Brain in a vat" and all sorts of dumb crap that I really don't care about.   

Look, I will grant you exist if you grant that I exist, alright.  I grant that you exist because I talk to you and you talk back, and I know that other people use computers and live on this planet.  It's pretty reasonable to assume you exist.  I will also grant that Yah exists if you can provide reasonable evidence that he talks to you (not that you talk to him, because yes, that could be all in your head)... and if you can't provide it, then I should be free to reject it, correct?  All I want you to do is prove that you can talk to Yah and Yah talks back if you meet all your criteria.  That's it.  If you have to delve into philosophy and existence, can you just admit up front that you can't prove your diety exists in the same way we normally prove that something exists?  Like the gravity example I used?  Or the Hudson river thing? 

You really think you can communicate with this Yah character.  I get that.  I don't believe you.  Not for a second.  Convince me I'm wrong.  If I told you I could communicate with Zeus if I met 3 unspecific criteria, what evidence would you expect me to present in favor of that position that would convince you that I was telling the truth?   
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on January 05, 2011, 06:58:39 PM
Take over-the-counter medicines, for instance; there is no medicine that cures an underlying problem or disease. Medicines merely cure "simptoms" while the body works through the REAL problem...and we accept this, (why) because sadly we've been convinced to believe that a simptom IS a problem; that a "detailed function" is the "source of the function".

As a member of the medical profession, (practicing physical therapist X 12 years) I can tell you right now that you are 100% wrong here.  Just look at any bacterial infection.  Bacterial infection is caused by an invasive bacteria that gets into our system and multiplies out of control, killing lots of cells in the area.  An antibiotic literally goes to the site and kills all the bacteria for us.  The actual problem is the bacteria.  The symptoms can be pain, swelling, heat, redness, etc.  The problem is the bacteria.  Antibiotics kill bacteria... the actual problem. 

Maybe you need to learn something about medicine before you go all "conspiracy theory" on everyone.  I will give you that many medicines only mask symptoms (you did spell it wrong twice, and btw, Sarah Palin would spell it simptoms too, lol... oh relax, I'm just having fun) but oftentimes masking the symptoms will allow someone to work through their problems easier and allow the body to heal.

You know what? I was just rereading this and saw that you said "over-the-counter" medicines.  Then you said "there is no medicine that cures... etc.  I guess I missed the OTC part. 

There are medicines that cure, but usually they are prescription based.  Depending on what you call OTC "medicine" that cures things, there are a couple I can think of.  Athlete's foot sprays like Tinactin.  Listerine mouthwash.  The symptoms of athletes foot are odor, wetness, itching, etc.  It's a fungus.  The spray kills the fungus.  It's OTC.  Listerine kills the germs that cause bad breath (which is the symptom) and thus cures the problem.  The germs just happen to come back with more food.

Just wanted to point out my mistake. 

Thanks.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Joshua on January 06, 2011, 07:01:32 PM
Yes, but I am calling them nothing but baseless assertions.  Just because you said a bunch of stuff about how you think you communicate with Yah, doesn't mean any of it is true.

...But that wasn't your question. You can't ask "how", and then judge the "how" as baseless assertions as if to disqualify the "how", only to ask "how" again (as if to conclude that such isn't good enough as an adequate method). What exactly is the goal here: To prove that there isn't a "how", or to prove that the "how" is ridiculous? Your judgement against "how" lends itself to the fact you accept that there IS a "how", you just don't agree with it, right?

I thought it was funny in a Sarah Palin / G.W. Bush sort of way.  Like refudiate, or misunderestimated.  Nothing more.  I wonder why you felt the need to call me out on such a small issue.  All I did was put it in parenthesis.  That's not exactly making a federal case out of it.

...just asking jeff...it seemed like a low blow or that you were trying to claim something about me to help your argument  ;).

Are you denying that prayer can sometimes "appears" to work regardless of meeting your stipulations?
 

Answer...
No. I’m claiming that “prayer” is a communication tool to WHOMEVER you choose to communicate, and then I provided the means by which you communicate “to Yah”…and if you don’t “dial the right number” (stipulations) you can’t call to the person you desire, no matter how badly you want to (or think you are), right?

If you want to use phone analogies here, that's fine.  Keeping with it, I simply say that you are using a toy phone.  When you call someone on a toy phone, you ALSO will not get the person you desire, no matter how badly you want to.  Or, what if nobody lived at the number you are calling?

I remember my aunts letting my little cousins play with their real landline phones (this is before mobile phones replaced them as the main means of comms.); and the child would pretend as if they were really talking to someone on the other line...of course, my aunt's would have a finger on the hook so that it wasn't in REAL use. But to the child, this REAL phone didn't - and wouldn't - seem like much more than a toy phone, right? That's not to say that the phone wasn't real, but it was improperly used, correct?

So let's say for the sake of argument that there IS a specific line you need to use to get to Yah.

A. How do you know that you are doing it right?
B. What criteria do you use to judge whether or not you are actually communicating with this Yah of yours? 
C. What evidence can you present that you are correct? Can you prove it? 
D. Who told you how to get to Yah and why is that information not readily available to everyone else?
E. Why would Yah make it so difficult to talk to him? 
F. If someone is trying desperately to communicate with Yah, wouldn't he know it?  And why would he consistently turns his/her back on them just because they are "dialing the wrong number"?

A. Because He promised to meet with you if you do it right...

B. Isn't this the first question rephrased?

C. What's the specific question: "correct in an answered prayer", or "correct in reaching Yah's presence" (because the two are not the same)?

D. Yah explains how to get to him (specifically) in the first 5 books of the Torah...not the bible per say; the Torah. And it is readily available to ANYONE who wants to know. The question is, 'will people take the time to read it to know?'

E. It's not difficult. It's a way of humbling us. Would you agree that this generation is a prideful, self-centered generation (on the whole); so full of ourselves and what we possess (from physical to mental), that even in our daily relationships with EACH OTHER (those we CAN see), we have this attitude of "what have you done for me to warrant ['my respect for you, reciprocation, etc']". Yah's method is not grievous, but it does contend with our selfishness, and in that we find difficulty.  "Can one let go of self?"

This method determines humility; who we set as "high" and who's "low"; who's master and who's servant; who's father and who's child; who's creator and who's creation. If it didn't matter "how" one came into Yah's presence, Yah would be no different than any other man-made deity (which only serve man's glory)...which is why I'm a lot frustrated at uneducated, supposed believers (called "christians") who've taken Yah's name [i.e. who say they represent Yah] in vain; spreading a false image without knowing or explaining the truth to others. This leads those like you to logically conclusion that Yah is yet another man-made deity.

We are meant to come to Yah in the way HE says to come to him BEFORE he makes his presence known. Only then can we ask for anything (within the rules he's established) so that HE and He alone is glorified.

F. The spirit cries out for the father. The spirit knows the truth. It's this dang flesh (carnal knowledge) that fights against and prevents it. The spirit - without words - says in truth and desperation, "Father. Please help me"...But the flesh says, "I'm going to pray to you only so you can prove to me that you exist, because otherwise..." Which prayer do you think he'll hear?

If one is desperately seeking his face, he will send someone to teach them the right way ( "hi!" wink, wink,  ;)). BTW - there's no reason for me to join this forum and put myself through all of this unless there was someone here who's spirit is - indeed - asking that very question. I'm under no delusion that my words are going to affect even 1/4 of the readers here.

Joshua, it just seems really stupid to me to think that the most powerful being in the universe requires us to jump through hoops for him just to give us a shred of attention.

Part of me can understand your viewpoint (as I still battle with selfishness), but another part of me truly understand why such would be so. Just think about it for a second as a concept:  The most powerful, perfect being, who's the "hub of the wheel", "Root of all branches", the source of all forms of creation, the one who's said to be "constant and unchanging" does not need to pursue us, because he's the center-piece. As a concept or perspective or equation...

Q. Which element is in motion; in flux; in the state of change? A.The Wheel...Branches...Variables...Creation.

Q. Which is at rest? A. The Hub...Root...The Constant...The Source.

It is our place to seek first, not his...such is humility.

Oh, so this whole thing is something you came up with on your own?  The OP was about 10 questions every intelligent Christian must answer.  Sorry, I assumed you were here to answer the 10 questions that every Christian must answer.  My bad.

lol, now I'm disqualified? This is not my doctrine...and you'd be amazed at how similar your response is with religious members I've talked to. I've been banned from other religious forums for the same accusation; for supposedly making up my own stuff, when it's there for all to read. No problem. But its interesting that you've been engaging me with discussion about "Yah". Through several of your posts, you obviously knew who I was talking about; who Christians incorrectly name, using some of the same defenses you use against them (I suppose). Remember you initially engaged with ME. Even still, if NO deity exists from your perspective, the discussion we've been having is still valid isn't it, even for "my" deity?

But you do right?  And I assume you meet all the other criteria right?  Or at least, someone on this planet meets all your criteria, right?  All I am saying is if you really believe this stuff, prove it and I will believe you.  Prove that someone who meets all of your criteria can actually communicate with this Yah character.  And if you can't, why should I even remotely believe you at all?

hehe, you ask as if your belief truly hinges on me, which both you and I know that it doesn't. Your belief hinges on you, not on another... "Prove to me..." Again, who's trying to move forward and who's trying to remain inert? Regardless, I doubt you'd believe me. BTW - I just talked to Bono over the phone...you say, "no you didn't"...I say, "yes I did"...you say, "prove it"...Then I say, "ok one sec.....[on phone for a while talking, hangs up].......see". Obviously I haven't PROVEN anything to you. What is the next logical step for YOU? What would YOU say next?

You'd probably say, "Give me His number and I'LL CALL MYSELF!"

I've given you the number to dial exactly as given...but just before you call you say, "this is stupid. Why should I have to call him. He should come to me. You call him and prove that you've talked with him...while you're at it have him visit me to prove to me that he exists, and that you've talked to him."

...can't you see something's wrong with this request (from all three perspectives)?

No Joshua.  That's not what I said at all.  You need to go back and read what I actually said.  What I said was that I am not going to ask "with all my heart" with an indefinite time line....[analogy]

...but aren't you also saying, "[you are] going to ask 'with all [your] heart' with a definite timeline"?

My point is, needing a way out, before you're in, is not exactly wanting a way in. Who exactly are you trying to fool? You can't fool the spirit (as in "your OWN spirit"). This isn't a game. Faith is baptism. Baptism is "full immersion"; full committment.

What position are we in to give a timeframe to Yah (back to the whole humility thing)...and even if I give a time frame....let's say a year...would you be willing to stop if it doesn't work?

I say he is not someone that people know about because I don't hear anyone else claiming that a diety behaves like yours does.

Sadly, I'll also agree with this...but it's the original message (in scripture) that was lost to religion.

I'm trying.  And I don't want a feel good message...  I want the truth.  That's it.  I don't think you have it.  So far you are just like all the other people who come here and say stuff that they are unwilling (really unable) to prove.  Your character says nothing about whether this Yah character is true.

I don't think people reading my words feel particularly good. You admitted it yourself. The things I'm saying are foreign to even the religions you're used to hearing. But again as far as proof, what say you about my scenario above?

If Yah is all in your head, then really, you would be the only one that understands Yah.  It seems this is exactly what's happening, doesn't it?

... ;) meh...we'll see which seeds take hold. I'd be interested to be a fly on some member's walls.
   
]...  When someone finds themself doing honest inquiry into the question "Is there a higher power", if they use the normal methods of determining truth (reason, logic and evidence from ALL available sources) then there is no possible way to come out believing in the Christian God....[

...but the methods we use (reason and logic) are, themselves, intangible things and yet we believe - without a doubt - that they exist...and not because you have empirical evidence of them, but because of what is affected by them or through them. Can you prove to me that reason or logic exists?


The question of "why" is presumptuous.  All of this could simply exist as a function of a completely natural universe.  In that case, "why" is not an applicable question.  The universe simply is.   In all honesty, there doesn't need to be a "why".

Honestly...I don't believe you believe this at all (but I can't to prove otherwise). There is always a cause. The question "why" is as limited as the universe itself (at least by that much), and to say otherwise is to place yourself right smack in the middle of those "stupid" (your word) people of the past who you say couldn't explain anything. Even to say "natural universe" implies a cause and effect relationship. This is what I mean by "most people stop at the 'how'" so that they don't face the question "why". In other words, it's a cop out.

As a member of the medical profession, (practicing physical therapist X 12 years) I can tell you right now that you are 100% wrong here.  Just look at any bacterial infection.  Bacterial infection is caused by an invasive bacteria that gets into our system and multiplies out of control, killing lots of cells in the area.  An antibiotic literally goes to the site and kills all the bacteria for us.  The actual problem is the bacteria.  The symptoms can be pain, swelling, heat, redness, etc.  The problem is the bacteria.  Antibiotics kill bacteria... the actual problem.

 :(...you kinda stole my thunder, jeff, with your correction on "over the counter" medicines...but I want to tackle this perscription side of medicine, specifically your example (if just to jab back).

...The body is (supposed to be) full of (good) bacteria, so such an invasion is by a specifically unwanted bacteria, which leads to the question, "why" was that bacterial allowed to invade the body when other bacteria (and antibodies) should be present to defend against it. The invading bacteria can not invade if there's no room in the cell, or if the cell is inhospitable to it (alkiline vs acidic). Your antibiotics TEMPORARILY solved the SIMPTOM of INVASION - by doing what the body was originally supposed to do on its own - but the PROBLEM is the lack of good bacteria and "friendly cellular environment", which leads to "why" is the body acidic rather than alkiline. Solve the REAL problem, doctor. Stop treating simptoms.  ;)

----

I read all of the following posts you've added...and I probably should've read it as a complete thought before replying to each point individually. So I'll skip the rest and ask you to reply to what I've posted about my Bono scenario (since the concept keeps cropping up in your remaining replies).

Look, I will grant you exist if you grant that I exist, alright...[

"Why" don't you want to go there? lol! This isn't a "setup" for a dead end, Jeff. "Why"? Specifically what's the proof that you and I (and Larissa) exists?

Will you agree that "there is proof that we exist because we affect other things and other people in our world"? In other words, the proof is "The things we affect REFLECT our existence." You NEVER need to personally see me - and I, you - to understand that you and I (and Larissa) exist.

[...Man this post took long. Getting posts under the character limit is tedious.]
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: DVZ3 on January 06, 2011, 07:14:14 PM
^^^ Wow, just wow Joshua.  That has to be the longest but weakest refute I've read here in a long time...  You can do better than that! I even gave you my direct extension!

Very disappointed,
God
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Larissa238 on January 06, 2011, 07:51:53 PM

As a member of the medical profession, (practicing physical therapist X 12 years) I can tell you right now that you are 100% wrong here.  Just look at any bacterial infection.  Bacterial infection is caused by an invasive bacteria that gets into our system and multiplies out of control, killing lots of cells in the area.  An antibiotic literally goes to the site and kills all the bacteria for us.  The actual problem is the bacteria.  The symptoms can be pain, swelling, heat, redness, etc.  The problem is the bacteria.  Antibiotics kill bacteria... the actual problem.

 :(...you kinda stole my thunder, jeff, with your correction on "over the counter" medicines...but I want to tackle this perscription side of medicine, specifically your example (if just to jab back).

...The body is (supposed to be) full of (good) bacteria, so such an invasion is by a specifically unwanted bacteria, which leads to the question, "why" was that bacterial allowed to invade the body when other bacteria (and antibodies) should be present to defend against it. The invading bacteria can not invade if there's no room in the cell, or if the cell is inhospitable to it (alkiline vs acidic). Your antibiotics TEMPORARILY solved the SIMPTOM of INVASION - by doing what the body was originally supposed to do on its own - but the PROBLEM is the lack of good bacteria and "friendly cellular environment", which leads to "why" is the body acidic rather than alkiline. Solve the REAL problem, doctor. Stop treating simptoms.  ;)

Sorry, as someone who knows a thing or two about biology, I just had to comment on this. There is no "room in the cell" for invading bacteria? (deleted insult). There is no such thing as "not having room in the cell." A cell can grow to accommodate bacteria, and there is tons of room in cells. They have cytoplasm for a reason. It's not like a cell's membrane is tightly wound against the nucleus, the mitochondria, the lysosomes, etc. The cytoplasm of the cell is kinda like a buffer... there is plenty of space inside cells. 

Second, you can have as many "good bacteria" in your body as you want. This is not going to stop "bad" bacteria from coming in. It's like you have a table with one layer of paper on it, covering the whole table. The paper would be the "good" bacteria and the table is your body. Just because the table is covered in paper doesn't mean that you can't put a piece of plastic on the table. The table can accommodate the plastic, and our body can accommodate more bacteria coming in.

Third, there are some bacteria that are both good and bad at the same time. My guts have a specific kind of the bacteria E. coli. My husband has his own kind of E. coli in his gut. If somehow some of my E. coli get into his gut, it can cause a conflict with the strain of E. coli he has in his gut, leading to diarrhea and nausea. Does this mean that my kind of E. coli is bad? No, because I need it and without it I couldn't digest food. So, a specific bacteria (like one single E. coli from my gut) can be either good or bad, depending on the situation.

Fourth, the cells in the body don't change their pH on a whim. If your blood pH deviates even a point or two away from 7.35, then you are in big trouble. (jargon deleted here). A cell doesn't just become more acidic or alkaline on it's own. So most of the cells in your body have the same pH, therefore the bacteria that get into your body can enter into most of the cells in your body with no problem. (there are some cells that are different, but even acid-producing cells in the body don't have radically different pH). So the vast, vast majority of the cells in your body are friendly to both good and bad bacteria.

So the "PROBLEM" is not "the lack of good bacteria and "friendly cellular environment."" There is no root "PROBLEM." Our body has defenses against bacteria, and sometimes bacteria get in our body and cause us harm. It's perfectly natural given that we intake bacteria all the time. Everything we put in our mouths is covered in bacteria. Infections happen. It's not a moral question.

*edit- fixed itallics*
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on January 07, 2011, 12:51:20 AM
But that wasn't your question. You can't ask "how", and then judge the "how" as baseless assertions as if to disqualify the "how", only to ask "how" again (as if to conclude that such isn't good enough as an adequate method). What exactly is the goal here: To prove that there isn't a "how", or to prove that the "how" is ridiculous? Your judgement against "how" lends itself to the fact you accept that there IS a "how", you just don't agree with it, right?

Joshua, you gave me the how.  I am not asking how anymore.  I am moving forward with the conversation here and saying that I acknowledge your claims for "how".  Now I am saying the "how" that you describe is nothing more than baseless assertions.  Move forward with me here and simply prove me wrong.  That's all you have to do. 

For now, I reserve my final judgement on whether or not your "how" actually works.  I am extremely skeptical as to whether or not you are actually speaking to your Yah.  I admit that, yes.  But if you can prove it, using reasonable evidence (again, enough that would satisfy you that I could talk to Zeus) I will acknowledge that your "how" really does work. 

No. I’m claiming that “prayer” is a communication tool to WHOMEVER you choose to communicate, and then I provided the means by which you communicate “to Yah”…and if you don’t “dial the right number” (stipulations) you can’t call to the person you desire, no matter how badly you want to (or think you are), right?

Alright, that's fine.  Then I will rephrase my question.   I will agree with the idea that you, Joshua, define prayer as a communication tool to whomever you choose to communicate.   Now you say here that if you do not "dial the right number" then you can't talk to whomever you choose to communicate.  I will grant you that this is one possible reason why so few people (I would claim no one) can speak with your Yah.  Perhaps only you, yourself can talk to Yah.  I don't know if anyone else has ever been able to speak with it, because like I said, this is not a version of God that everyone has been exposed to.   

But trade positions with me for a second.  Using your definition, if I prayed to Spegmorph the Lizard Dishwasher, then I am, in effect, attempting to communicate with Spegmorph.  There are lots of possible reasons that I can not actually communicate with Her, including the idea that I am not "dialing the right number".  Another, equally explanatory option for why I can't talk to Spegmorph could be that Spegmorph isn't real.  Do you disagree with that?  That would also fully explain why I can't talk to Spegmorph.   

Now, let's say I came to you and told you that I could communicate with Spegmorph if I met certain nebulous, vague and unprovable criteria first.  Does that claim deserve anyone's attention?  Hell yes it does, and I am not being sarcastic.  I should explore that option and ask questions about it, don't you think?  It is very possible that I know something you don't.  That's exactly what I am trying to do here with you and your claims about communicating with Yah.  The problem arises when trying to meet your criteria, however.  You've made it perfectly clear that I can't meet your criteria.  If I maintain a skeptical mind, then I have no hope, no chance.  So what is my next logical step?  If I can't meet it, tell me who can, and have them prove it.  Yet, you seem unwilling to do that.  What are you leaving me with here?  I have nothing to go on.  It's a dead end.  I am asking for proof, you aren't giving it, why would I conclude that Yah is anything more than a figment of your imagination?  Isn't that the most likely scenario?  I mean, SURE you could be right and I just can't meet your criteria.  But you aren't willing to provide proof, you aren't willing to show me who CAN talk to Yah, and you say I can't meet your criteria to do it myself.  What do you expect me to do here?   

I remember my aunts letting my little cousins play with their real landline phones (this is before mobile phones replaced them as the main means of comms.); and the child would pretend as if they were really talking to someone on the other line...of course, my aunt's would have a finger on the hook so that it wasn't in REAL use. But to the child, this REAL phone didn't - and wouldn't - seem like much more than a toy phone, right? That's not to say that the phone wasn't real, but it was improperly used, correct?

Nice story.  I already said you could be right and that we aren't dialing the right number (as I said, this seems a bit loony that the most powerful being in the universe will only talk to us if we jump up, spin around, do a backflip and stand on our heads).  But you seem to discount that it could also be a toy phone.  Or there really could be nobody on the other end of the line.   Logically speaking, why would you do that?   

A. Because He promised to meet with you if you do it right...

If the bible is a work of fiction, which I fully believe it is, then a fictional character in a book promised to meet with you if you do it right. 

C. What's the specific question: "correct in an answered prayer", or "correct in reaching Yah's presence" (because the two are not the same)?

Sorry for the lack of specificity.  Let me rephrase.  The specific question is... What evidence can you present that shows that you A. meet all the criteria you have outlined, and B. that you are actually communicating in any way, shape, or form with Yah? 

D. Yah explains how to get to him (specifically) in the first 5 books of the Torah...not the bible per say; the Torah. And it is readily available to ANYONE who wants to know. The question is, 'will people take the time to read it to know?'

And again, you say this stuff as if it's true.  I have read the bible.  Front to back.  Including all of the Pentateuch.  I see no evidence for anything you say, and I really have no reason to believe that any of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy or Numbers are anything more than fictional tales and ancient religious laws that no longer fit our times.  And it's not just me here.  It seems that the vast majority of the world is also not seeing this Yah that you are seeing.  Given that information, is it more likely that you alone have found the secret meaning and the secret way to communicate with Yah, or that you are just another in a very long line of people who thought they had found the secret meaning, and are just as full of bull as the next guy? 

Nobody seems to agree with you Joshua.  And for good reason. 

E. It's not difficult. It's a way of humbling us. Would you agree that this generation is a prideful, self-centered generation (on the whole); so full of ourselves and what we possess (from physical to mental), that even in our daily relationships with EACH OTHER (those we CAN see), we have this attitude of "what have you done for me to warrant ['my respect for you, reciprocation, etc']". Yah's method is not grievous, but it does contend with our selfishness, and in that we find difficulty.  "Can one let go of self?"

No, I would not agree with you that this generation is a prideful and self-centered generation on the whole.  No I do NOT.  Now I am going to get a little personal, because I get so sick of you religious people coming in with all your "oh the world is so awful" bull shit.  It's very tiresome.  It must be terrible to go through your life thinking about how awful things are all the time.  You watch too much TV if you think the world is so bad.  Try turning it off once in a while and NOT listening to ANY of the media outlets that feed you ONLY bad stuff all day.  Of course you will think the world is bad if ALL YOU GET is negative news about the world.  OPEN your eyes.  Look around you.  There are good people EVERYWHERE.  The world is FULL of them.  This is an AWESOME time to be alive.  The future is wide open.  We have the power to make it what we want.  If you don't want to help, stay the hell out of our way.   

Some people are selfish.  There is nothing AT ALL wrong with being a little selfish once in a while.  If I work hard for something that I want, then I feel I am entitled to get it.  What's so bad about that?  I wanted a hybrid car.  I got one.  Is that so terrible?  I wanted a new laptop. I got one.  Call the selfish police!  I also give blood, I recycle in a state that doesn't require it, when people call out sick at my wifes job I volunteer to help her (AT A FREAKING CHURCH) because I love her and she needs me.  This world is loaded with good people.  If only we could get rid of all the people like you who just think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, maybe we could make this place a better one to live in.     

This method determines humility; who we set as "high" and who's "low"; who's master and who's servant; who's father and who's child; who's creator and who's creation. If it didn't matter "how" one came into Yah's presence, Yah would be no different than any other man-made deity (which only serve man's glory)...which is why I'm a lot frustrated at uneducated, supposed believers (called "christians") who've taken Yah's name [i.e. who say they represent Yah] in vain; spreading a false image without knowing or explaining the truth to others. This leads those like you to logically conclusion that Yah is yet another man-made deity.

Yah is yet another man made diety.  All of them are.  He's just your man made diety.  Your invisible friend, if you will.  Everything you say here is just the stuff you have come up with in your mind. 

Honestly, the reason that I engaged you when I did (after the first post you made that talked about criteria) was because in that post. you said if you do A,B,C,D, and E, you will be able to communicate with Yah.  I thought, "YAY That's darn near a falsifiable statement."  That's worthy of consideration.  Let's see if he can do it!  The problem is, you haven't proven anything.  Nothing at all.  Your criteria are super vague.  Nothing you say has any basis in the reality that we see around us.  It's just another failure. 

Long story short, if Yah is not real.... then everything you said about masters, servants, fathers, coming in to Yah's presence etc.... is all just words with no meaning whatsoever. 

We are meant to come to Yah in the way HE says to come to him BEFORE he makes his presence known. Only then can we ask for anything (within the rules he's established) so that HE and He alone is glorified.

That's a very interesting way to explain why so few people (none that you can prove) can come before Yah in the first place.  Just prove what you say for Christ sake.  My explanation is that there is no Yah at all, and that's why so few people (none) can come before Yah.  If you want to see exactly how I view these 2 sentences of yours... just substitute the word "Spegmorph" in place of "Yah", and you will see how ridiculous I viewed what you wrote here. 

But wait a minute here... here you say we CAN ask for anything (again surprise, surprise with specific rules) once we've met the rules?  Again, here is another semi-falsifiable statement.  If you can find someone, anyone at all, who meets ALL of your criteria, and plays by ALL the right rules, and they ask for something improbable 50 times and they get it all 50 times, then I will be well on my way to believing in your Yah.  Stop making it seem like the evidence I would require is unreasonable.  That is not unreasonable at all.     

F. The spirit cries out for the father. The spirit knows the truth. It's this dang flesh (carnal knowledge) that fights against and prevents it. The spirit - without words - says in truth and desperation, "Father. Please help me"...But the flesh says, "I'm going to pray to you only so you can prove to me that you exist, because otherwise..." Which prayer do you think he'll hear?

Useless words.  There is no such thing as a "spirit".  My brain fires neurons and I think, act, move, breath, eat, sleep... all of that.  You have set up some sort of duality that doesn't exist in reality.  Your body is all that you are.  There is no "spirit", no "soul".  They are nebulous concepts that are defined more by what they are not, than by what they are. 

To answer which prayer Yah will hear, the truth is neither one because Yah isn't real...  But I will play along and take a guess, although I really have no idea.  It's not my invisible sky man, it's yours.  You seem to be making this up as you go, so I will pick.... "Father please help me?"  Am I right? 

If one is desperately seeking his face, he will send someone to teach them the right way ( "hi!" wink, wink,  ;)). BTW - there's no reason for me to join this forum and put myself through all of this unless there was someone here who's spirit is - indeed - asking that very question. I'm under no delusion that my words are going to affect even 1/4 of the readers here.

Your words will affect anyone who reads them.  So will mine.  I can't speak for everyone here, but to me your words are nothing more than the usual stuff wrapped in a different package.   

But do you see what you did here?  You said "if one is desperately seeking his face, he will send someone to teach them the right way".  It's as if regular seeking isn't good enough.  That just doesn't make any sense at all coming from an omnipotent, omniscient being (I assume Yah is both, but I don't know for sure).

 I am desperately seeking the truth.  If Yah is the truth, then I am seeking that.  But I think truth should be sought with skepticism, not gullibility, else the real truth might pass by.  I see you coming here and your words are not even remotely convincing at all.  In fact, if it weren't so sad, it might be comical.  That's just being honest.  Now you may sit there and say "well, he's not really desperately seeking Yah, and he is just denying the obvious", but that's totally not it.  I am denying Yah because you have presented your argument with nothing more than assertions and claims.  I'm not gullible Joshua.  At least I don't think I am.  Certainly not with religions.     

Part of me can understand your viewpoint (as I still battle with selfishness), but another part of me truly understand why such would be so. Just think about it for a second as a concept:  The most powerful, perfect being, who's the "hub of the wheel", "Root of all branches", the source of all forms of creation, the one who's said to be "constant and unchanging" does not need to pursue us, because he's the center-piece. As a concept or perspective or equation...

Q. Which element is in motion; in flux; in the state of change? A.The Wheel...Branches...Variables...Creation.

Q. Which is at rest? A. The Hub...Root...The Constant...The Source.

/sigh.  The bottom line is this.  You aren't proving that you can communicate with Yah (at least you haven't yet.  I'm still waiting but not holding my breath).  You aren't proving that Yah exists.  All you are doing here is spewing stuff in an attempt to explain why Yah doesn't do this or that, when another, more obvious and better explanatory theory exists and is staring you right in the face.  Yah isn't real.  That could explain very well why Yah won't communicate easily with us, right?  The reason you are forced to say stuff like this is because there is no evidence at all that Yah is real... and you have to cover that up with something in order to maintain your delusion... so this is what you cover it up with.  Wheels, branches, hubs and crap. 

It is our place to seek first, not his...such is humility.

Either that or it's not real. 

lol, now I'm disqualified? This is not my doctrine...and you'd be amazed at how similar your response is with religious members I've talked to. I've been banned from other religious forums for the same accusation; for supposedly making up my own stuff, when it's there for all to read. No problem. But its interesting that you've been engaging me with discussion about "Yah". Through several of your posts, you obviously knew who I was talking about; who Christians incorrectly name, using some of the same defenses you use against them (I suppose). Remember you initially engaged with ME. Even still, if NO deity exists from your perspective, the discussion we've been having is still valid isn't it, even for "my" deity?

I am discussing "Yah" with you because that is what you've decided to name this god of yours.  It's simply being polite and not wanting to create a strawman argument that has forced me to use the term "Yah" in the first place.  The only reason I know who you're talking about is because that's what you keep saying. 

Did you ever think the Christians kicked you out for the same reasons the atheists are saying you're wrong (probably more respectfully and in a nicer way than the Christians)?  Because you're simply wrong?  You believe you are right.  I am just as adamant that you aren't.  When that happens, what do you do?  Look to the evidence.  I respect your right to think you are correct here.  You should respect mine, not dismiss it.  That's why I ask for evidence.  It's on you to provide it. 

And yes, this discussion is valid, even if it is "your" diety.  But the reason I am using some of the same defenses I use against Christians is because your god and the Christian versions (all of them) all suffer from the exact same problem.  An unbelievable lack of verifiable evidence.  You think yours is so different, but it's not. 

hehe, you ask as if your belief truly hinges on me, which both you and I know that it doesn't. Your belief hinges on you, not on another... "Prove to me..." Again, who's trying to move forward and who's trying to remain inert? Regardless, I doubt you'd believe me. BTW - I just talked to Bono over the phone...you say, "no you didn't"...I say, "yes I did"...you say, "prove it"...Then I say, "ok one sec.....[on phone for a while talking, hangs up].......see". Obviously I haven't PROVEN anything to you. What is the next logical step for YOU? What would YOU say next?  You'd probably say, "Give me His number and I'LL CALL MYSELF!"
I've given you the number to dial exactly as given...but just before you call you say, "this is stupid. Why should I have to call him. He should come to me. You call him and prove that you've talked with him...while you're at it have him visit me to prove to me that he exists, and that you've talked to him."

If you gave me his number, I would call him myself.  Why wouldn't I?  The same goes for Yah. 

My point is, needing a way out, before you're in, is not exactly wanting a way in. Who exactly are you trying to fool? You can't fool the spirit (as in "your OWN spirit"). This isn't a game. Faith is baptism. Baptism is "full immersion"; full committment.
...
What position are we in to give a timeframe to Yah (back to the whole humility thing)...and even if I give a time frame....let's say a year...would you be willing to stop if it doesn't work?

Another possible reason that I can't talk to Yah is because Yah doesn't exist.  You can say it's because I am not fully immersing myself, or that I'm looking for a way out, or I can't give Yah a timeframe... but all of those just cover up for the possibility (no, extremely high probability) that Yah just isn't real. 

I don't think people reading my words feel particularly good. You admitted it yourself. The things I'm saying are foreign to even the religions you're used to hearing. But again as far as proof, what say you about my scenario above?

I assume you are talking about the Bono thing?   I told you I would call Bono myself.  You're saying I can't do that.  So I'm saying "who can?" and you are throwing a fit about that too.   What other options do I have?   

... ;) meh...we'll see which seeds take hold. I'd be interested to be a fly on some member's walls.

I think that would be a very traumatic experience for you.  :)
   
...but the methods we use (reason and logic) are, themselves, intangible things and yet we believe - without a doubt - that they exist...and not because you have empirical evidence of them, but because of what is affected by them or through them. Can you prove to me that reason or logic exists?

It's not about whether they exist or not.  We both know they do.  It's about how we apply them to our lives.  What I am saying to you is that you aren't applying the same reason and logical standards to your religion that you do to every other aspect of your life.  And when you do that, you aren't really looking for what's true.  But it's what you have to do in order to maintain your belief.  If you started looking at religion through the same reasoning and logic that you used in the rest of your life, you wouldn't believe in Yah anymore. 

Honestly...I don't believe you believe this at all (but I can't to prove otherwise).

Why, because you don't understand it? Ah wait, I think I see why you don't believe me..... below.

There is always a cause.

We are just mixing terms up is all.  Yes there is always a cause.  I thought you were posing the "why" in terms of a "reason" that the universe exists... as if it was put here for a purpose. 

You can backtrack any "why" question ever asked, all the way back to the beginning of the universe, but once you reach that spot, the thing that's different between you and I is that I don't claim to know why the universe came to be (although I believe it to be natural).  I can say "I don't know" because we have no evidence for what happened before the universe came to be.  It is you who put your foot down here and say "Yahdidit".  No evidence, no proof, just an assertion.  The reason I think it was most likely natural is because everything in our universe that we currently know,  has a natural explanation.     

The question "why" is as limited as the universe itself (at least by that much), and to say otherwise is to place yourself right smack in the middle of those "stupid" (your word) people of the past who you say couldn't explain anything. Even to say "natural universe" implies a cause and effect relationship. This is what I mean by "most people stop at the 'how'" so that they don't face the question "why". In other words, it's a cop out.

Oh, I do believe in a cause / effect relationship.  I just think that's ALL there is.  So "why does the universe exist?" is a question that I answer with "I don't know".  "How did the universe start?"  The evidence points to the big bang.  "Why the big bang?"  Hell if I know, but I'm pretty sure it was natural. 

...The body is (supposed to be) full of (good) bacteria, so such an invasion is by a specifically unwanted bacteria, which leads to the question, "why" was that bacterial allowed to invade the body when other bacteria (and antibodies) should be present to defend against it.

Because the skin (which normally prevents such an invasion by hostile bacteria) has been damaged, and may not have been fully exposed to that particular bacteria (and thus the proper antibodies were never developed by the immune system).  Or it might simply be that so many of the bacteria invaded that the body wasn't capable of making antibodies fast enough to keep up with the spread of bacterial growth. 

The invading bacteria can not invade if there's no room in the cell, or if the cell is inhospitable to it (alkiline vs acidic).

What are you getting at here? 

Your antibiotics TEMPORARILY solved the SIMPTOM of INVASION - by doing what the body was originally supposed to do on its own

No, the symptoms are heat, swelling, redness, pain, etc.  The problem is the bacterial invasion that your body can't stop.  (please stop writing simptom.  It's not funny anymore).   Much more often than not, the body does fight off bacterial infections.  That's why we don't need medicine for every cut we get. 

but the PROBLEM is the lack of good bacteria and "friendly cellular environment", which leads to "why" is the body acidic rather than alkiline. Solve the REAL problem, doctor. Stop treating simptoms.  ;)

What the hell are you talking about?  This doesn't make any sense at all.  What good bacteria is missing?  What do you mean the friendly cellular environment is the problem? 
 
"Why" don't you want to go there? lol! This isn't a "setup" for a dead end, Jeff. "Why"? Specifically what's the proof that you and I (and Larissa) exists?

I didn't say it you were setting me up for a dead end.  I said it IS a dead end.  Philosophy, in this case, leads nowhere.  Getting into conversations about proving we all exist is far outside of what we need to do here. 

Will you agree that "there is proof that we exist because we affect other things and other people in our world"? In other words, the proof is "The things we affect REFLECT our existence." You NEVER need to personally see me - and I, you - to understand that you and I (and Larissa) exist.

I've seen too many of these Joshua.  Maybe you haven't but I have.  Maybe you would understand how many times I have seen the philosophy arguments go all over the place and end right where they started from.  I'm not going there.  I believe most of philosophy is a fools errand.  I usually back out of any discussion that goes in the direction of "How do you know I exist?"    Take it up with someone else. 

Either that or we can simply fast forward to where you want to go with it anyway.  You might say something like "just because you can't see Yah, doesn't mean Yah doesn't exist" and then you might follow that little number up with a "creation is the evidence that Yah exists, because His existence is reflected on the world".  To that I would argue "creation is only evidence of creation, it says nothing about how the creation came to be or who created it (presumptuous question again)", and you might come back with "if we see a watch on a beach", and I will roll my eyes about the fucking watch again.  No thanks. 

Just prove you talk to Yah, will you?  If not, stop trying, because it's just not cool. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 04, 2011, 03:34:29 AM
i know this is an old topic, but i would like to think I'm a wise christian and can answer these.

"Why won't God heal amputees?"

well to be honest, no one can know. God has a plan for the universe marked down to every time you'll blink. There is a reason why not every amputee is healed physically, but i can't know that. but what i do know is the spiritual healing that come from tragic moments in our life. God gives us certain situations in our lives that pin us against the wall and ask us "What do I believe in at this pivot point of life?" i have had this situation in my life before as well. God isn't torturing us by removing our limbs, or making us being born without eyesight. He is trying to teach us something to lead us to eternal healing and life. I know a man who is a christian, wasn't a very strong one but still believed Jesus was the son of God and did in fact rise from the dead, and one day while hunting he fell from his perch in a tree about 30ft high. He fell on his back, his rib cage was smashed in, and many many bones were broken. He survived luckily and he was in the hospital for a while. He lost all feeling in one of his arms. Now his favorite hobbies were things like golf, and hunting and things you have to use your arms for, so he became severely depressed. He tried to figure out anyway he could get feeling back in his arm. The doctors didn't give him much hope, but he still tried different things. Nothing worked. He felt vulnerable. He felt like he couldn't do anything. He needed something. He looked towards God. God gave him strength. God gave him hope that God had a different plan in mind for him. Something that he could do with only one arm. Now you might think "That is not fair that one should lose an arm just because God wanted his to be closer", but that's not the case. It has more purpose than that. it helps us realize just how much we can't do on our own. Even Christians need constant help. We need God to help us. Now God weeps for all of the pain we are induced with. He understands how terrible things are. which is why He uses those moments to show you how much you are missing in life. Everyone needs more of what God has to offer. So to sum this all up "Why won't God heal amputees?" Simply because He has a more important plan for them in their life.


"Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?"

Because we are not God. Everything must end except for God. But you see God never wants or even wishes for murder (abortion counts in this instance). That is the people, and sin that we blame for that. God takes people by natural death. Though, because of sin, God knows when and how we will die whether it be natural or not, so He created a plan accordingly for every single one of us.


"Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?"

Well obviously because from a "scientific" standpoint, a lot of the bible is false. But God created science and the many things we can explore, but sin has twisted it so far that it has become a religion. Your religion. Satan is the king of lies and he took science and the explanation of the universe and shrouded the many things that we ignore to this day. There is in fact scientific proof that there is a god or intelligent being. Now for one all energy is eternal. There is no beginning or end to it, it is just always there. Now if you ever believed in the big bang theory, then you still have yet to answer the one question that so many cannot answer. "Where did the energy come from?". It had to of had a source. Something or someone outside of time and science itself. And here enters God or whatever you wish to call Him. Now that shows how there at least must be something outside of time watching over us, now how can i believe that this same being is watching over us constantly and loving us. The answer is simple. God created the heavens and the earth. He created a place for us to live and laugh and love people and help others and a place to go to after we die to live in the loving company of God, Jesus, and everyone who accepted Christ into their heart. But now that isn't very sciency. Well lets just take a closer look at all of creation verses say evolution. Now first off lets start with the big picture. the universe. It is a vast expanse full of planets and stars. Now lets dig a bit deeper to where that all effects us. Our solar system. hmmm well lets see. It has been proven that if earth had been formed any closer to the sun, then it would be uninhabitable, and if it were any farther away from the sun, then it would be uninhabitable. So for those big bang people, giant meteors randomly smashed into the right point? the exact right point? The only perfect point to sustain human life? huh. funny. well perfection can be achieved at an random time right? oh... wait. with that many factors? no. it can't be perfect. not by random happenings. For example if 1 trillion monkeys were left to type the Gettysburg address, would any of them successfully type that? nope. like straight up. so therefore something must have controlled the position of the earth. God perhaps? that's for you to decide. but let's dig even further. let's look at the rotations of the earth and the moon. now the moon is normally out when it's night and the sun is out when it's day. that's 24 hours in one day. kind of a random number, but yet it's insanely brilliant when you get down to it. People need at the most 9 hours of sleep to function for at least 15 hours. Is it just our bodies adapting to cycles? or is it literally that we were made the have to follow this. But how could evolution even bring that onto us? same for all creatures. we need sleep because of how our bodies function. we get sustenance through the day for energy, but that can only last so long. so if evolution were true, would we be able to adapt to a completely different sleep cycle? no. I'm not talking about moving into different time zones, but try living perfectly normal in a place with 30 hour days. you'll probably notice that you'll be completely exhausted come night time and your sleep isn't nearly as healthy. So thank goodness random chance produced that. well it didn't. God was there for that. and there are many more points, but I've kind of changed the topic a big on this question. But if anything this proves how much science applies to the bible.


"Every 'answered prayer' is actually a coincidence.  All scientific evidence supports this conclusion."

This evidence is what? Random integers thrown together and mashed till it comes up with the same conclusion? science can't prove how a car ran without vital car parts. This is a true story. A man in Europe drove all over the continent delivering bibles in his really cruddy car, and he was always praying that God would keep it running just a little further each time.  after the car had his some odd 400,000 miles it broke down. he took it into the body shop and left it there to be fixed.  The next morning he gets a call from the mechanic telling him that there was no possible way his car could have run. It was missing pistons, spark plugs, cords, and a few other things. The mechanic couldn't understand how he could have even gotten it to the body shop. Once the man turned off his car and left, the mechanic couldn't start it. So i ask science to prove how that is just a coincidence.



"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

Simply because he has said in the bible that we should not have to see to believe, for we are blessed if we believe and do not see. see John 20:29 for proof. now obviously pretty much everyone has wanted to see Jesus or even prayed that He would appear, but the thing is that Jesus doesn't work that way. He wants to know how much we believe and trust in him. and if you can honestly have true heartfelt faith and be consciously thinking about John 20:29 and you ask for Jesus to appear, then I'm sure He would. but of course why do we want to see Jesus? because we want to see if we are right? or maybe because we want a hug. well you know Jesus just won't appear to anyone nowadays unless it's apart of God's plan. But why would we need Jesus to appear physically when He is 100% of the time by our side. The only reason would be out of doubt. and we can't have complete faith with doubt in our mind.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 04, 2011, 05:09:02 AM
I am in awe.

Just wow.

BM
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Anfauglir on October 04, 2011, 05:35:26 AM
"Why won't God heal amputees?"

well to be honest, no one can know. God has a plan for the universe marked down to every time you'll blink. There is a reason why not every amputee is healed physically, but i can't know that......So to sum this all up "Why won't God heal amputees?" Simply because He has a more important plan for them in their life.

Kaboose, welcome to the forum!  I'd like to pick up on a couple of your points, if I may.

Minor point - the piece I've bolded above seems to imply that SOME amputees ARE physically healed - I'd be interested to see the evidence for that!

But the major point is not specifically whether or not amputees are healed per se, but rather as a commentary on the fact the it appears that the only times god will intervene in the world is in situations where the same result was quite possible through natural means - on the trivial level, you pray to find your car keys and then find them, for example.  On the higher level, that cancers mysterious go away, as do a whole host of other illnesses that can sometimes clear up by themselves, or as a response to the medication and treatment provided.  But human arms and legs never, ever, ever grow back.  THAT is the point of the question - that Yahweh never does anything that could not just as easily be the result of simple happenstance.


"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"
.....Jesus doesn't work that way. He wants to know how much we believe and trust in him. and if you can honestly have true heartfelt faith and be consciously thinking about John 20:29 and you ask for Jesus to appear, then I'm sure He would.....

A fairly good point - but my understanding from many Christians is that Jesus loves me more than anything, and would deeply love to have a relationship with me.  Now in the real world, anyone who displayed those two characteristics towards me, and who heard me say "y'know, I'd like to meet this person", would be in front of me shaking my hand in seconds.  But with Jesus, we are supposed to accept that a person who loves us, wants us to be saved, wants us to have a relationship with him....will nonetheless refuse to reveal himself (whether that be physically or otherwise).  Even when that one, simple action may be the single action that saves that person - me, for example - from eternal damnation.

That is - to me - the point of that question.  Reconciling the loving, caring Jesus who really wants to get to know me, with the Jesus who hides and will not reveal himself.  I simply cannot reconcile the two.

Anyhooo.....that'll do for now.  Looking forward to talking with you!
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kin hell on October 04, 2011, 06:00:06 AM
i know this is an old topic, but i would like to think I'm a wise christian and can answer these.

dear kaboose, (without meaning to appear problematic or unwelcoming) I need to point out that this forum does not look favourably upon the  (no disrespect intended) "resurrection" of very dead threads.    The art of necromancy is not practiced here, no matter what horrors you may have heard attributed to atheists in general.
Quote from: kaboose
"Why won't God heal amputees?"

well to be honest, no one can know. God has a plan for the universe marked down to every time you'll blink.

dear kaboose (without meaning to appear argumentative or unwelcoming), I must point out that if an omnipotent and omniscient god has a plan (perhaps that should be spelt with a capital P) then it is not possible for free will to exist at all.

(Without wishing to appear heretical or unwelcoming), I would  suggest you have to consider that if we are all subject to a Plan that is god's Plan, then there is nothing whatsoever we can do that is not of god's Plan. 
Therefore there can be no free will whatsoever, because whatever action we do must be part of that Plan.

So by your logic, (without meaning to appear dismissive or unwelcoming at all), prayer is an absolute waste of time, because how can anything or anyone do anything to change god's Plan?
It is impossible to change god's Plan because for god to change his Plan would mean that either he had made a mistake that needed rectification (impossible), or that he just changed his mind and that his original Plan was not the right Plan after all.

So kaboose I welcome you to this forum, I hope you are strong and brave enough to stand up to the atheist "weather" that is probably coming your way given your lengthy presentation.

I should point out( while meaning no disrespect and without wishing to appear unwelcoming), that while you base your answers on the problematic idea that god has a Plan for us, then I feel no need to address any other of your points until you can clarify how free will can exist if your god has a Plan, and how can prayer possibly have the slightest effect if god already knows what the Plan is?


Anyway kaboose  welcome! and why don't you make an introductory post in the introduction thread, it is always good to get another theist on the forum.

I look forward to your reasoned reply re: the free will vs god's Plan paradox.


Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on October 04, 2011, 08:24:25 AM
unnecessary commentary removed.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: plethora on October 04, 2011, 08:29:43 AM
Welcome to the forum Kaboose.  :)

I will address a few points that we not already addressed above.

There is a reason why not every amputee is healed physically, but i can't know that. but what i do know is the spiritual healing that come from tragic moments in our life. God gives us certain situations in our lives that pin us against the wall and ask us "What do I believe in at this pivot point of life?" i have had this situation in my life before as well. God isn't torturing us by removing our limbs, or making us being born without eyesight. He is trying to teach us something to lead us to eternal healing and life.

I understand that, having gone through a tragic event, people can find new ways to emerge positively from the experience and find new meanings in life.

However, I don't understand the purpose of a god allowing thousands of African children to live hungry, agonizing, disease-ridden lives for a few years and then let them die of starvation. What lessons does an innocent child learn from such a horrible life experience exactly?

What lessons do innocent children learn from natural disasters where they die horrible deaths (i.e. The Haiti earthquake, the Indian Ocean Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, etc)?

---
About science... the scientific method is the most reliable method for determining what is real and what is not. Science does not have all the answers. It has helped us determine that the known universe had a beginning at an event we call the Big Bang. What, if anything, caused the Big Bang to happen is unknown.

There's nothing wrong with saying we don't know how something happened. Science endeavors to find the answer via the scientific method which demands evidence.
---

About the earth being in the right spot and evolution ...

I think you may be approaching this in the wrong direction, i.e. you are working backwards from a conclusion. The universe is almost entirely inhospitable to life as we know it. Very close to 100% of it. The earth itself supports life on only some of its surface some of the time. It is a known scientific fact that 99% of all species that ever evolved in earth have gone extinct. We are living on a knife edge that can easily go wrong and end all life on earth.

The observable universe is unbelievably vast. It is 92 billion light years across and 13.75 billion years of age. It has about 60 sextillion stars out there at the moment, half of them with planets. That's large enough and old enough to allow life to emerge at a microscopic level and have the opportunity over 3.5 billion years to evolve into the thin film that covers this tiny spec of dust we call Earth.

The universe is hardly designed for life. Rather, life has emerged despite the hostility of the universe, although it continues to suffer from species extinction and natural disasters.

I don't see how this can be considered an intelligent design by a god.

If life evolved here and evolved the way it did, it's because this was the only place/time it could have done so despite the universe being so inhospitable.

---

On the point of where 'energy' came from... we don't know. Perhaps energy always existed in some form or another and doesn't need to have been created.

Why must there have been a god to create the initial energy?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: velkyn on October 04, 2011, 08:59:36 AM
Kaboose,

Your post is full of the usual bad arguments by Christains.  You claim that no one can know why God doesn’t heal amputees.  However,  Christains are quick to claim that they know all sorts of things about their god.  Isnt’ it convenient when you decide that on the hard questions, god magically becomes “mysterious”? 

I also find that your assumption that God must use harm and pain to “teach” people to be disgusting.  Why can’t your God not use such thing if it’s supposed omnipotent and omniscient?  Your god seems to be nothing more than a really powerful human brat that can’t do anything different than the humans that invented it.  As for your claim that someone “got Jesus” because they were hurt, why does your god then kill so many people without them getting anything if you want to claim all harm is just your god “teaching” people. Doesn’t he know when to stop? 

Your response to the “why is there so much anti-science nonsense in the bible” is a typical hypocritical one.  You use science everyday and you only attack it and try to ignore it when it shows your myths to be nonsense.  You also incredibly ignorant of the science you attack.  That’s convenient for you since you don’t actually have to learn about something that shows repeatedly that you are wrong.  It's sad when Christains must depend on repeating lies told to them to keep their religion.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ivellios on October 04, 2011, 12:03:42 PM
Regarding the Anti-Scientific:Earthquakes: Do they happen when God shakes the "Pillars of the Earth?" How about instead of being a Flat Earth with Pillars, we have a sphere in the void of space[1] and Plate Tectonics? Plate Tectonic Theory[2] explains Earthquakes, Volcanoes and Tsunamis. No God needed. Is the Bible wrong? If you throw out BBT & Evolution, you really should toss the rest because the same methods used to determine the others is the same method used to determine BBT & Evolution. That's why: Bible <>[3] Science.

Freewill:
God3: I'm not going to Force you to follow my will by overriding your thought process.
Humans: Yay!
God3: You'll just have to use your Freewill to Choose to follow "My Plan!"
God2: My Plan!
God1: >.> <.< o.O THE Plan, or Roast in Hell Forever! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Human: ****!
God2: Should we tell them that there are some we decided to send them to hell before they were even born, no matter what they do?
God1: HaHAHAAA! I already put that into the Bible!
God2: ****! I really didn't want to tell them that! Kinda contradicts the "All-Loving" aspect I wanted to market.
God3: Yeah, you would think it would give ammo to those who would say we don't exist and the Bible is a Lie.
God1: HaHAHAAA! As IF it were possible! Not believe in us? If they could ever kill weeds without killing the wheat or figure out how to measure the Heavens, but that's Impossible! I'll make sure to annotate it, so that if Humans ever figure it out, I'll deny everyone Heaven.
God2: How you intend to do that?
God1: My good friend Jeremiah!
God3: You said, "If," that contradicts our All-Knowing aspect... shouldn't we know that?
God2: Shhh! Don't tell them that either!
God1: Too late, I already did.
God2 & God3: ****!


But, now you're even saying every time we blink? Wow. Nice to know my entire life means just as much as Frodo's. He might have thought he had freewill, but he had no choice what-so-ever, but to do as JRR Tolkien wished. Plans suck.
 1. ie. no Pillars, no foundation
 2. that's right "Just a Theory" just like Electricity, Gravity, Evolution, BBT & Music to name few.
 3. mutually exclusive
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: nogodsforme on October 04, 2011, 05:27:32 PM
It has been proven that if earth had been formed any closer to the sun, then it would be uninhabitable, and if it were any farther away from the sun, then it would be uninhabitable.

I don't know who "proved" that the earth had to be at one precise distance from the sun, but the distance of the earth's orbit around the sun varies from 91 million miles in December to 95 million miles in July, with an average distance of 93 million miles.[1] So, in the course of one year, the earth moves four million miles closer and farther away from the sun. To give some idea of the scale, the earth is 25,000 miles around at the equator. Not exactly the kind of "fine tuning" you were taught in Bible class. Learn science stuff in a real text book or on the internet-- this info is not in the Bible.
 1. Yes, the earth is closer to the sun when we have winter in the northern hemisphere and farther when we have summer. The seasons are due to the tilt of the earth towards the sun's rays.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 04, 2011, 06:48:04 PM
i literally spent 5 hours typing a response to all of you, but this site erased it all. i will try to reconstruct it in the next couple days. i really do want to get back to all of you.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on October 04, 2011, 09:41:38 PM
kaboose,

Before you go about writing your responses over again, please consider the following...

There are 7 billion people in the world.  Less than 2 billion of which believe in anything resembling the Christian God.  In other words, the vast majority of us don't buy it. 

The bible was written by men.  It is a collection of books thrown together by men, that has been copied and recopied by the hands of men who used the book to maintain some semblance of power for themselves.  We have no original copies of anything.  We don't know who wrote the gospels.  Though it mentions some places in antiquity that actually existed (as do Harry Potter books) archaeology does not support the vast majority of the claims of the bible.  There is no evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.  There is no evidence that he walked on water, fed the multitudes, or cast out demons.  They are all things written in a really old book.  Nothing more. 

You are massively undereducated in terms of science.  Your explanations betray a terrible lack of understanding and knowledge about the way our world works.  Science works, religion doesn't.  It's that simple.  When you understand science, God is no longer a useful explanation for anything.  Everything you said in your post that attempts to debunk science is wrong.  You have been fed bad information, and before you try and prove science wrong, you should understand what they are saying.  Especially about evolution, the solar system, and energy.  At least most of us have had the decency to read the bible before attempting to prove it wrong.  You should feel compelled to read what scientists are actually saying before you try to prove them wrong too.  What you have posted to us betrays the fact that you haven't done so.  It makes it look suspiciously like you've never read any of the arguments against Christianity from non-Christian sources.  Bad move dude. 

Let me give you an example of how a scientific understanding changes your world views.  Take lightning for example.  In the old days, people used to think it came from God.  They did not understand what else could be causing it, so they attributed it to an unseen force with some sort of will.  They did that with everything, so back then, it was much easier to be religious because there WERE no other explanations for things they didn't understand.  Flash forward a few thousand years.  Now, we understand lightning.  We know how it happens.  And when you have that understanding, you have one of those, "Oh, I get it!" moments and God takes a step backward as an explanation.  It's just not needed.  The more knowledge you obtain, the more "Oh, I get it!" moments you have, and the more steps God takes backward.  Pretty soon, once you've contemplated hundreds and hundreds of "Oh, I get it!" moments, God has taken so many steps back that you can't see him anymore.  And what you replace it with is an appreciation that everything we still have YET to understand, doesn't need God as an explanation either.  Honestly, that's just how it works.  If you had that knowledge, God would step away from you too. 

Finally, please understand this....  There are millions and millions of atheists out there.  What that should tell you is that there are giant swaths of people who believe they have really good reasons to disbelieve in God.  Many of them are the smartest people around.  Whether you like it or not, we DO have very good reasons to think that God is not real.  In that sense, you should not approach this website as if you have the truth.  You should approach it as if we actually might have something to teach you, as you probably think you have something to teach us.  Unfortunately for you, thus far you have not shown anything that we haven't seen a hundred times already.  If you want to get something from your time here, sit back and learn a few things about our views before you try to answer any more questions.  I hate to say it, but most of your answers are terrible.  I mean, really bad.  I'm not saying that to be mean, but seriously, a few glances at some scientific material would probably make you feel pretty embarrassed to have said what you did.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Anfauglir on October 05, 2011, 02:44:23 AM
i literally spent 5 hours typing a response to all of you, but this site erased it all. i will try to reconstruct it in the next couple days. i really do want to get back to all of you.

I'm guessing it's what has happened to me a few times - if your login period times out while typing, when you hit post it all vanishes into the ether!  You may want to try logging in with a longer expiry time (or "forever"), or ensuring you Ctrl+C all the text before hitting Post.  Good luck!
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kin hell on October 05, 2011, 03:20:43 AM
i literally spent 5 hours typing a response to all of you, but this site erased it all. i will try to reconstruct it in the next couple days. i really do want to get back to all of you.

.......yes it has also happened to me. Very frustrating.

If I know I am about to create a long post, I write the entire thing in a word program/app  and once satisfied that I have what I want to post, I just copy and paste it into the forum post reply  box

I know a lot of people here are very interested in your responses to their comments so hopefully you will find it in your christian heart to make the effort to educate us all in good christian thunk.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on October 05, 2011, 07:24:11 AM
Good post, Jeff.

Let me give you an example of how a scientific understanding changes your world views.  Take lightning for example. 

I just want to add a little bit to this point.  xians for centuries thought lightning was used by god to mete out punishment on the wicked.  However, since churches were usually the tallest buildings in town, they usually bore the brunt of "god's wrath".  It was perplexing and no one could come up with a good explanation as to why god would so often smite the places dedicated to his worship.

Then, in the 1700s a guy named Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod.  Believe it or not this caused a huge theological controversy.  Think, Terry Schiavo.  Some people thought it this nifty little invention - which saved hundreds if not thousands of lives - was usurping god's will and refused to put them on churches.  Imagine that.  Eventually one of them saw it was a good idea and rationalized it thusly: the lightning rod itself must be the will of god.

So, if our colonial ancestors had the good sense to modify their silly religious beliefs to align with the latest science and technology, why can't you?  Why can you not make the leap and say, "if god wanted us to believe in literal creation, why is there so much evidence to make many people, all of them far smarter than me, conclude otherwise?" 

The problem, kaboose, is that you are making your proclamations in complete ignorance.  You are saying you, in your ignorance, know more than the experts, who actually study this stuff.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Samuelxcs on October 05, 2011, 08:05:21 AM
Quote
"Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?"

There are NO innocent people.  All have fallen short of God's glory and deserve far worse a fate than any we could imagine.  Transgressions of God's laws and standards are anything but trivial.  These are not little things just because you wish to think them so.

The things that you claim make no sense simply make no sense to you.  That doesn't make them "insane."  What really does not make sense is your insistence upon making purely subjective personal assertions, and claiming them to be objective innate observations.

There are No innocent people? What would your definition of innocent be? Maybe someone that has never done anything wrong in their entire lives? Maybe someone who never uses bad words? Humans are apparently born with 'original sin' because of Adam and Eve, but that does not mean anyone else is a sinner. If a child is born the son or daughter of a very evil person, that does not automatically make that child a sinner or not innocent. We are all humans, a 'flawed' creation, but there are some innocent people. I don't know any innocent people where I live but I never use bad words or do horrible things.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: plethora on October 05, 2011, 08:10:29 AM
How about we pause here and give Kaboose a chance to reply?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: velkyn on October 05, 2011, 08:44:04 AM
i literally spent 5 hours typing a response to all of you, but this site erased it all. i will try to reconstruct it in the next couple days. i really do want to get back to all of you.

that's unfortunate.  A suggestion, type out your response in a word processor and then cut and paste it into a response.

That being said,  you should read more of this site and see the responses to Christians.  The mailbag area is a good area to start.   I'd also ask you to consider why it should take yuo 5 hours to defend your claims.  IF this religion was real, shouldn't it be more evident than needing hours to figure out how to respond to some very simple questions?  I'd also advise you to come up with your own answers, not parrot something you've found on an apologetics website. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: gonegolfing on October 05, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
How about we pause here and give Kaboose a chance to reply?

Honest to goodness !, I wanted to gouge my eyes out with a stick after reading post #159 by this cat !

Wow, just wow. I think pausing is a great idea Pleth-- and perhaps more importantly, give him some extra time to do some reading before he says another word and surely does further damage to his credibility.

Kaboose, I'm not trying to be mean, but please do some extracurricular reading mate, your ignorance is killing you here !

Cheers  ;)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 05, 2011, 03:40:39 PM
Just to let you all know i am taking jeff's post into consideration and studying what people say on this forums. I am ignorant when it comes to the science of a lot of things. i hope you don't mind waiting for my response. i would like to give it at least a week to gather my information more. Thanks!
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 05, 2011, 05:20:41 PM
Good job, Kaboose!

+1
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: WiccaBillinCo on October 05, 2011, 06:34:34 PM
OK, as a newbie here, I’m just going to say something(s) I have picked up as I have read through several threads.

I see all the time that god or the flying spaghetti monster does not reveal himself to me because he wants me to humble myself.

I will say for a fact, if Jesus appeared in the air, or in my room, I’d kneel down and humble myself, and I imagine almost anybody on this site would too.

So, let me get this straight. I am a simple man, and I can not love my children near as much as this christian god loves me.

1. I can’t know god’s plan, or know his mind to know what he really wants.

2. This god who loves me so much will not reveal his presence to any of his children in any way they could point to it and offer unassailable proof of him, (IE. Remember on Oct 5th, when God appeared over the Washington monument? It was on CNN!)

3. The same afore mentioned god is content to let me wander through life, never knowing him, when all he had to do was say, “Here I am”. (I do it for my kid, but I guess I don’t love her enough, and should let her suffer and wander around lost)

4. He can do anything but he can’t get on the front page of USA Today?

5. If I don’t have enough faith, he is going to throw me into a lake of fire, in front of my loved ones?

6. There are no innocent people. A child just born is as guilty as a serial killer.

7. In the OT he was content to reveal himself so everyone would know his glory, but he sent his son to die horribly, as a blood sacrifice for my sins, and that all stopped. He was going into hiding and ignore people.

8. He dictates to his followers not to judge, but his followers are the most judgmental group I have ever encountered.

9. He designed us with free will, but doesn’t want us to use it.

And

10. All the times in the OT when he revealed himself, he is going to get rid of the evidence so we still have no proof.

Just looking at it from an engineer’s position, that’s a real bad system design for even a man, not alone an omnipotent being. You don’t design a system for failure. Mythbusters wouldn’t even touch this one.
Just sayin’
(Geez, I’m such a redneck at times, LOL)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kin hell on October 05, 2011, 08:35:31 PM
Good job, Kaboose!

+1

ditto
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: gonegolfing on October 06, 2011, 09:12:42 AM
Quote
OK, as a newbie here, I’m just going to say something(s) I have picked up as I have read through several threads.

Quote
I will say for a fact, if Jesus appeared in the air, or in my room, I’d kneel down and humble myself, and I imagine almost anybody on this site would too.

Then your imaginations are incorrect. It's more than probable that many of the atheists here would of course acknowledge a revealed god, but kneeling down to it ? all of a sudden loving it ? worshiping it for ever ?  Nah, myself I can't see it. And if in fact it was bible god, then definitely not ! Tyranny is never to be respected and always battled against, so that type of god is in the dog house  ;)

Quote
9. He designed us with free will, but doesn't want us to use it
.

Divine free will does not exist. It's merely a religious term. But let's for a moment say that it does:-- If there were to be a bible god who assigned a free will, then based on the history and behaviour of that god, he would be akin to a crime boss who's says to a family member:

Crime boss: ""Listen you ungrateful disrespectful punk! You wanna do things your way ?! Yeah well go ahead!! But just remember you sorry ass little piece of worthlessness, that I'm your father! and I brought you into this world and made you what you are in this family and so it's best you do things my way ! Or else !!""......as he pulls back his silk blazer to reveal a 45 Magnum.... :?

Son: ""Jeeezuz Dad ! Did you have to flash your gun ?! Even though you were gone doing "business" for most of my life, I thought you loved me!!? You'll kill your own child for not completely toeing the line, even though you weren't there to guide me !!!?

Crime boss: "''Me Kill you !? Ha!! Don't be so ridiculous you little turd!! Your decision to show disrespect to me and my love for you is what kills you!! ....man you're a stupid little fuck !!""   

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: jtk73 on October 06, 2011, 03:05:40 PM
First you say this -
"Why won't God heal amputees?" well to be honest, no one can know.
Then you say this -
Quote
God has a plan for the universe marked down to every time you'll blink. There is a reason why not every amputee is healed physically, but i can't know that. but what i do know is the spiritual healing that come from tragic moments in our life. God gives us certain situations in our lives that pin us against the wall and ask us "What do I believe in at this pivot point of life?" i have had this situation in my life before as well. God isn't torturing us by removing our limbs, or making us being born without eyesight. He is trying to teach us something to lead us to eternal healing and life.
If no one can know why he won't heal amputees, then how can one reliably know anything about him?

Quote
God never wants or even wishes for murder (abortion counts in this instance).
1 Samuel 15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Quote
That is the people, and sin that we blame for that.
Who decides what is a sin and what isn't a sin? Who allows sin to exist?

Quote
But God created science and the many things we can explore, but sin has twisted it so far that it has become a religion. Your religion.
How is science twisted by sin? How is science a religion? If science is a religion, what qualifies me, as an atheist, to be a follower of that religion? I don't follow any creeds or worship science. What is the tipping point? Have you been vaccinated or had a flu shot (both developed by scientists)? Does that mean that science is your religion too?

Quote
Satan is the king of lies and he took science and the explanation of the universe and shrouded the many things that we ignore to this day.
How do you know this? How do you know that Satan actually is not our creator and Yahweh is manipulating and lying to humans?

Quote
There is in fact scientific proof that there is a god or intelligent being.
Really???

You said this -
Quote
Now for one all energy is eternal. There is no beginning or end to it, it is just always there.
Then you said this -
Quote
Now if you ever believed in the big bang theory, then you still have yet to answer the one question that so many cannot answer. "Where did the energy come from?". It had to of had a source.
If it is eternal with no beginning or end then it does not need to "come from" anything or anyone. It doesn't require a source.
Also, if the god you are positing doesn't require a beginning or source - how can you say that this energy or the universe requires a beginning or source?

Quote
Something or someone outside of time and science itself. And here enters God or whatever you wish to call Him.
First you need to prove that there is absolutely no other natural way that this energy OR the universe came into existence.
Next you need to prove that a god or supreme being exists.
Then you need to prove that a god or supreme being created this universe

Quote
Now that shows how there at least must be something outside of time watching over us, now how can i believe that this same being is watching over us constantly and loving us. The answer is simple. God created the heavens and the earth.
Then you need to prove that the god or supreme being that created this universe is the particular god that you believe in as opposed to Zeus, Odin, Vishnu or *some god I just made up*.
You can't just leap from "we don't know where is energy came from" to "my magic, bearded sky wizard did it!!!"
If you completed all but the last step, I could easily say "Obviously the giant, invisible, fire engine in the sky created the universe." and I would have just as much evidence for my claim as you do for yours.

Quote
let's look at the rotations of the earth and the moon. now the moon is normally out when it's night and the sun is out when it's day. that's 24 hours in one day. kind of a random number, but yet it's insanely brilliant when you get down to it. People need at the most 9 hours of sleep to function for at least 15 hours. Is it just our bodies adapting to cycles? or is it literally that we were made the have to follow this. But how could evolution even bring that onto us? same for all creatures. we need sleep because of how our bodies function. we get sustenance through the day for energy, but that can only last so long. so if evolution were true, would we be able to adapt to a completely different sleep cycle? no. I'm not talking about moving into different time zones, but try living perfectly normal in a place with 30 hour days. you'll probably notice that you'll be completely exhausted come night time and your sleep isn't nearly as healthy. So thank goodness random chance produced that. well it didn't.
What? Are you suggesting...that human beings could not possibly have evolved to live and thrive on a planet with faster or slower rotation??? That they could not possibly have adapted to sleep approximately 30 hours and gather food/create shelter the remaining hours of the day? How do you know this?

science can't prove how I grew third arm out of the middle of my chest. This is a true story. One day I decided to grow a third arm out of my chest so that I could flash my middle finger at inconsiderate drivers while still keeping my other hands on the wheel. Voila! There it was! A perfectly formed arm in the middle of my chest! I use it daily and it comes in very handy (pun intended) for other tasks as well.  So i ask science to prove how that is just a coincidence.

Now. You have no choice but to accept this a truth because you obviously accept any claim made without any evidence as long as the person relaying the story says "This is a true story"

Simply because he has said in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" that we should not have to see to believe, for we are blessed if we believe and do not see. see "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" for proof. now obviously pretty much everyone has wanted to see Harry Potter or even prayed that He would appear, but the thing is that Harry doesn't work that way. He wants to know how much we believe and trust in him. and if you can honestly have true heartfelt faith and be consciously thinking about "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" and you ask for Harry to appear, then I'm sure He would.

It's a book...
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaziglu bey on October 09, 2011, 11:32:31 PM
rcdrury, I hate to be the one to inform you, but according to the story of the Great Flood, the mountains were covered with 15 cubits (21 feet) of water. Mt. Everest is 29,029 feet high. That means that 29,050 feet, or 5.5 MILES of water, fell in just 40 days. Let me reiterate, the global sea level raised 5.5 miles in 40 days. This is simply absurd, for so many reasons. First of all, where did the water come from, and then where did it go? There is no evidence of all that extra water on the earth, nor of the catastrophic effects that level of flooding would create. There is no geological record of a mass extinction of every living thing not in Noah's ark having ocurred only a few thousand years ago either.

Second, if the human race was whittled down to just Noah and his family, this means incest. lots of incest. Also, how is it that the global population has grown to nearly 7 billion in the time since? How is it that there is evidence of people living in the Americas since 10,000 years ago, if only Noah and his family survived the flood? Furthermore, how did the animals get back to North/South America? Or to Australia? Or Antarctica? Did Santa deliver them?

Third, why is the flood, which the Bible says is unarguably the greatest extinction event in the Earth's history, not supported by a single shred of solid evidence, yet plenty of evidence exists to support great extinctions millions of years before there people (KT Event, Permian Great Dying) ? Why doesn't the Bible mention dinosaurs? I'm serious. A book that is the divine word of God should certainly contain references to something as fearsome as T-Rex, as awesome as Amphicoelias Fragillimus, as cunning as velociraptor? Why would God create these AMAZING things and NEVER mention them?

Fourth, how is it that Noah's ark, though assuredly impressively huge, was able to contain the nearly 9 million species that are currently found on earth? He would have to have brought 2 of every species that has ever existed (except the stuff that went inexplicably extinct before that), including reptiles, mammals, birds, insects, plants.... how did he do all of this? I'm pretty sure that even if the Ark was the size of the USS Enterprise, it would have been a little more than challenging. Plus all of the food needed to sustain every  species (what did the carnivores eat if only two of every animal was brought? What happened to the plants eaten by the herbivores?)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ivellios on October 10, 2011, 01:38:30 AM
Noah's Ark.

People in modern day have tried to rebuild it according to the dimensions in the Bible, and guess what? It cannot be done. The largest so far is 1/2 the sice, requiring steel bracing, strutts and supports and to top it all off: it is built onto a steel barge because even with our low sea levels with intervening land, it is not sea worthy.

A world only covered by water won't have land to break the waves so they'll just build and build. A world covered only by water will be rougher than the pacific has ever been.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: WiccaBillinCo on October 10, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote
OK, as a newbie here, I’m just going to say something(s) I have picked up as I have read through several threads.

Quote
I will say for a fact, if Jesus appeared in the air, or in my room, I’d kneel down and humble myself, and I imagine almost anybody on this site would too.

Then your imaginations are incorrect. It's more than probable that many of the atheists here would of course acknowledge a revealed god, but kneeling down to it ? all of a sudden loving it ? worshiping it for ever ?  Nah, myself I can't see it. And if in fact it was bible god, then definitely not ! Tyranny is never to be respected and always battled against, so that type of god is in the dog house  ;)



Please note I said I imagine almost anyone. but point noted. I was speaking, (writing) IMOO, and I'll not include you in any further notes I write. 

I also imagine I am smart, (Delusions of Grandeur)

Like I said, newbie.
Smiles,
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: fishjie on October 10, 2011, 09:10:26 PM
Noah's Ark.

People in modern day have tried to rebuild it according to the dimensions in the Bible, and guess what? It cannot be done. The largest so far is 1/2 the sice, requiring steel bracing, strutts and supports and to top it all off: it is built onto a steel barge because even with our low sea levels with intervening land, it is not sea worthy.

A world only covered by water won't have land to break the waves so they'll just build and build. A world covered only by water will be rougher than the pacific has ever been.

yeah but god did it

god can do anything

ez pz
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kin hell on October 10, 2011, 11:21:07 PM
Just to let you all know i am taking jeff's post into consideration and studying what people say on this forums. I am ignorant when it comes to the science of a lot of things. i hope you don't mind waiting for my response. i would like to give it at least a week to gather my information more. Thanks!

kaboose, ..................how's the education going?

I know you said at least a week, but perhaps you can be more time specific now that week is nearly up.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: fishjie on October 11, 2011, 01:03:47 PM
psssh i doubt kaboose is coming back, hit and run christians are a dime a dozen.   with any luck though, they'll deconvert years down the line once they realize how dumb their beliefs are.   or at the very least, become un-fundamentalist.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: jtp56 on October 13, 2011, 07:22:49 PM
Those who insist to live by the law, die by the law.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: jtp56 on October 13, 2011, 07:23:52 PM
We are all gonna die right?  Is anyone here (because of science) gonna live forever?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: wright on October 13, 2011, 10:20:38 PM
We are all gonna die right?  Is anyone here (because of science) gonna live forever?

Barring something like Tipler's concept of the Omega Point actually becoming reality...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point)

... no.

Your point?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Hatter23 on October 14, 2011, 12:31:57 AM
We are all gonna die right?  Is anyone here (because of science) gonna live forever?

You know what, no. However Science does make people live longer. Religion is just wishes in air. It does not allow people to live forever, it promises it will, but it does not. The only way religion affects lifespan is incidents like 9-11
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: plethora on October 14, 2011, 03:30:41 AM
We are all gonna die right?  Is anyone here (because of science) gonna live forever?

Life expectancy is two and half times longer now than it was before science and it will continue to increase.

It's impossible to live forever simply because the universe will no longer be able to support life in the far future.

So what's your point?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Anfauglir on October 14, 2011, 05:43:28 AM
Is anyone here (because of science) gonna live forever?

Yes.  I am.

Can you prove I will not?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Samuelxcs on October 14, 2011, 05:45:42 AM
Is anyone here (because of science) gonna live forever?

Yes.  I am.

Can you prove I will not?

Ask how science made you live forever then get a lie detector?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Anfauglir on October 14, 2011, 06:38:42 AM
Ask how science made you live forever then get a lie detector?

Polygraphs test the belief in the answer being given - not the underlying truth or otherwise behind that belief.  I'm confident I would pass a lie detector test.

I'm also sure that jtp56 would get a "true" response if asked "will you live forever through Christ".....same as I am sure I would get a "false" response if asked "will jtp56 live forever through Christ".  In other words it would prove nothing.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: WiccaBillinCo on October 14, 2011, 06:07:55 PM
Ask how science made you live forever then get a lie detector?

Polygraphs test the belief in the answer being given - not the underlying truth or otherwise behind that belief.  I'm confident I would pass a lie detector test.

I'm also sure that jtp56 would get a "true" response if asked "will you live forever through Christ".....same as I am sure I would get a "false" response if asked "will jtp56 live forever through Christ".  In other words it would prove nothing.

The people that administer lie detector test like to state that they are 94% accurate, (Jack Trimarco, the Dr. Phil polygraph guy, ex-FBI agent)   
(http://www.jacktrimarco.com/  ).
There are just as many people that state you can get the same results of a lie detector as a random answer, IE: a 50/50 chance.
 (http://antipolygraph.org/) .
I know all you have to do if faced with a polygraph test, is to tell them you understand control questions, and know countermeasures, that automatically will make you a bad candidate for a lie detector test.


Of course there is always the urban legend of the police in Pennsylvania made a lie detector out of a colander , some wires and a photo copy machine. They wrote “HE’S LIEING” on a piece of paper, put it in the copier, and stuck the colander on the suspect’s head. When they asked him a question, and got an answer they didn't like, they pressed the copy button, and the paper came out with the message on it. The suspect confessed to the crime.
(http://www.snopes.com/legal/colander.asp )
Probably was a christian, they are so easy to fool.


(Information I have locked inside my head that no one cares about, LOL).
Just sain’
Smiles.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 24, 2011, 10:34:48 AM
I have not gone. I have been taking time to study both sides. I am going to make my argument when i feel as though i can give you the best possible answer. i haven't been able to get on though because of schooling and stuff, but i'm still getting time to poke around a bit.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: plethora on October 24, 2011, 10:47:18 AM
^^ That great Kaboose. That's all we can ask for really... we want theists who come here to take the time to study all sides and be sincerely interested in figuring out what is true and what is not.  ;)

Maybe you should ask us some questions so we can clarify some of that stuff for you. That would help I think.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 27, 2011, 02:51:27 PM
Okay, well i do have a few questions. All of the prophecies told in the old testament have come true. There is historical proof of it all. but there were the prophecies written before it all happened. For example look at the prophecy found in Joshua 6:26. It was written about 1451 B.C. This prophecy has 4 predictions: Jericho will be rebuilt, it will be rebuilt by one man, the builder's oldest son will die when the work on the city starts, and his youngest son will die when the work is complete. This prophecy was fulfilled about 500 years later. Note that there is a large period of time between when the prophecy was marked and when it happened. this is true throughout the prophecies of the bible. No other religious document in the world is authenticated with this type of difficult and accurate prophecy. Let's estimate a conservative probability for this prophecy to happen. The fulfillment is found in First Kings 16:33-34 by the way. The estimated chances of the (1) the city of jericho will be rebuilt: 1 in 2. (2) One leader, who will be a man, will rebuild the city: 1 in 10. (3) the leader's oldest son will die at the start: 1 in 100. and (4) the leader's youngest son will die at the finish: 1 in 100. Therefore the total probability for this prophecy is 1 in 200,000. These values were carefully calculated and justified by a respected group of historians and they can be studied further in a book called "Science Speaks" by Peter Stoner. Now another probability of a portion of the fulfilled prophecies in the old testament of the bible (biblical references given to prove that these prophecies did come true after a long period of time) :

Jericho                     2 x 10^5 (Joshua 6:26)
Tyre                         7.5 x 10^7 (Ezekiel 26:3-16)
Samaria                  4 x 10^4 (Michah 1:6)
Gaza                       1.2 x 10^4 (Zephaniah 2:4-6)
Golden Gate            1 x 10^3 (Ezekiel 44:1-3)
Zion Plowed            1 x 10^2 (Micah 3:12)
Jerusalem                8 x 10^10 (Jeremiah 31:38-40)
Palestine                 2 x 10^5 (Leviticus 26:31-33 / Ezekiel 36:33-35)
Moab / Ammon        1 x 10^3  (Ezekiel 25:3-10/ Jeremiah 48:47, 49:6
Edom                       1 x 10^4  (Jeremiah 49:17-18)
Babylon                   5 x 10^9 (isaiah 13:19-21 / Jeremiah 51:26)

now the probability of these 11 prophecies all coming true if they were written by people relying only on their human wisdom would be 1 in 5.76 x 10^59. Note that I said these are only a portion of the prophecies told in the old testament. Now there is proof that Jesus existed, and there are many prophecies made many many years before.

Messiah born in Bethlehem       2.8 x 10^5  (Micah 5:2)
Messiah had a forerunner         1 x 10^3   (Malachi 3:1)
Messiah rode a donkey             1 x 10^2  (Zechariah 9:9)
Messiah had wounded hands   1 x 10^3 (Zechariah 13:6)
Messiah betrayed by 30 silver coins  1 x 10^3 (Zechariah 11:12)
Betrayer of Messiah threw coins down 1 x 10^5 (Zechariah 11:13)
Messiah had no defender at his trial   1 x 10^3  (Isaiah 53:7)
Messiah was crucified even though innocent  1 x 10^4 (psalm 22:16)

The probability of one person (Jesus Christ) fulfilling these 8 prophecies if they were written by people who relied only on their human wisdom would be 1 in 2.8 x 10^28.
and the probability of all of these 19 prophecies all coming true if they were written by people relying only on their human wisdom would be 1 in [5.76 x 10^59] x [2.8 x 10^28]= 1.6128 x 10^88.

My question is, how can people predict things of that magnitude if there is no God? How do the prophets of God prophecy  the future in such specific ways and have them fulfilled? These events are proven to be true and fulfilled, just look it up. History proves the Bible. Math shows the probabilities. Now please think carefully about this statement: With respect to evidence, it takes a far greater leap of faith to not believe in God and the Bible than to have faith in God and to believe what the Bible says.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Hatter23 on October 27, 2011, 02:57:23 PM
Okay, well i do have a few questions. All of the prophecies told in the old testament have come true.

And the prohecies in the earlier written Harry Potter books come true in the later ones. Same reason. We've seen this  before


NEXT!
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 27, 2011, 04:09:17 PM
except for the fact that harry potter books are fantasy. The history and prophecies in the Bible are proven to be real. and history continued to prove the prophecies to be true.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: One Above All on October 27, 2011, 04:12:39 PM
except for the fact that harry potter books are the Bible is fantasy. The history and prophecies in the Bible Qur'an are proven to be real. and history continued to prove the prophecies to be true.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 27, 2011, 04:28:36 PM
i present the facts and you bash. no offense, but i was told that i would be respected if i did that.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: jaimehlers on October 27, 2011, 04:33:00 PM
Just saying that something's a fact doesn't make it a fact.  You have to prove it.

And the point of Lucifer's creative editing was to point out that it's all a matter of perspective.  Someone who strongly believes in something will be much more likely reject other conclusions without seriously thinking about them.  The fact that you thought he was bashing you proves this.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Alzael on October 27, 2011, 05:05:36 PM
except for the fact that harry potter books are fantasy. The history and prophecies in the Bible are proven to be real. and history continued to prove the prophecies to be true.

But you never proved them to be real. All you did was list a series of bible verses that said they were real.

This might count as some small measure of proof if the prophecies weren't also in the selfsame bible. However they are. The prophecies which are predicted by the bible, are also fulfilled within the narrative of the bible; so they effectively prove nothing of substance.

If those events were recorded elsewhere, in a separate document that had not come from biblical writings, or could be shown to have occurred via objective evidence, then you could start to make a case for such things having some veracity.

As it stands, using the bible to prove itself has the power to prove nothing. It is simply a logical fallacy.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Historicity on October 27, 2011, 05:09:01 PM
It was written about 1451 B.C.
No basis for that statement.  it is the fallacy of the Argumentum ex Ano.  (Pulled out of the anus.)

Quote
(1) the city of jericho will be rebuilt: 1 in 2. (2) One leader, who will be a man, will rebuild the city: 1 in 10. (3) the leader's oldest son will die at the start: 1 in 100. and (4) the leader's youngest son will die at the finish: 1 in 100. Therefore the total probability for this prophecy is 1 in 200,000.
More invented numbers.
Quote
These values were carefully calculated and justified by a respected group of historians
That's a lie.

Quote
Tyre                         7.5 x 10^7 (Ezekiel 26:3-16)
Well, that's what happens when I don't keep up with the evening news.  Nebuchadnezzar has finally nuked Tyre.  BTW, in 29:18 Ezekiel admitted his prophecy was a failure.  He followed it with a prophesy that Nebuchadnezzar would ravage Egypt and the population would be driven out of the land for 40 years before they trickled back to resettle it.  That prophesy failed, too.

Given the back and forth warfare in the ancient Middle East it was always a safe bet to prophesy a city would eventually be conquered.  If it didn't happen it still might.  Let's look at a few facts about the Book of Joshua.

Jericho had already been destroyed and there were a few survivors living on the ruins.
http://dqhall59.com/old_jericho.htm (http://dqhall59.com/old_jericho.htm)
Quote
Historians credited the destruction of fortifications in Southern Canaan from circa 1550 BC to the Egyptians.  This was when the last city walls of Jericho were destroyed.

The Book of Joshua says Gibeon surrendered to him.  But Gibeon was founded in the Iron Age, about 1200 BC.
http://dqhall.com/gibeon/ (http://dqhall.com/gibeon/)

Megiddo, allegedly destroyed by Joshua.  The ruins contain a statue base dedicated to Pharoah Ramses VI who reigned 1145 to 1137 BCE.
http://www.archaeowiki.org/Bronze_Statue_Base_of_Ramesses_VI,_Megiddo (http://www.archaeowiki.org/Bronze_Statue_Base_of_Ramesses_VI,_Megiddo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_VI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_VI)

There was a battle at Megiddo about 1450 but it was the Egyptians against the Canaanites -- no Hebrews around at all.  It ended with the surrender but not destruction of the city.
Quote
The ancient Egyptian account gives the date of the battle as the 21st day of the first month of the third season, of Year 23 of the reign of Thutmose III. It has been claimed that this was April 16, 1457 BC according to the Middle Chronology, although other publications place the battle in 1482 BC or 1479 BC. The Battle of Megiddo was an Egyptian victory and resulted in a rout of the Canaanite forces, which fled to safety in the city of Megiddo. Their action resulted in the subsequent lengthy Siege of Megiddo. ... The city was besieged for seven months and the King of Kadesh escaped. Tuthmoses set up siege-works and encircled the town, eventually forcing its occupants to surrender. At Karnak it is recorded that the victorious army took home 340 prisoners, 2,041 mares, 191 foals, 6 stallions, 924 chariots, 200 suits of armor, 502 bows, 1,929 cattle, 22,500 sheep, and the royal armor, chariot and tent-poles of the King of Megiddo.  The city and citizens were spared.

Conclusions:

Ezekiel was a court sycophant giving prophecies that coddled the king.

The Book of Joshua is a fraud.  It was written at least 500 years after the alleged events.  I assume there was somebody named Joshua sometime but he didn't conquer a bunch of cities.  The book is a propaganda piece.  It's the same as when there is a shocking murder some guy in a slum will brag that he's the bad, bad dude that did it.  Then people will step back when he swaggers down the sidewalk.  Since it gets some details of the rebuilding right, the logical answer is it was written after the rebuilding.

I'm not going into the prophecies of Jesus in detail here.  Most all of the alleged fulfillments only happen in Matthew and Matthew is quite, how shall we say, a fabulist[1]

I will note that at the head you said, "All of the prophecies told in the old testament have come true."   That's amazing.  The Messiah is to be the King of Israel, bring the Jews all back to Israel, enslave the Palestinians and make them like it, and bring world peace. 

Again, I forgot to turn on the 6 o'clock news today so I didn't notice that that happened.
 1. In case that went over your head I mean bulls*****r.  See Matthew 27:52 for an example that everyone would have to have seen and forgotten completely immediately.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Hatter23 on October 27, 2011, 05:29:13 PM
i present the facts and you bash. no offense, but i was told that i would be respected if i did that.

You haven't present fact. You have presented that thing in a book predict other things in a book. A book that has been demonstrated false time and time again. From Bats being birds, Pi as three, Rabbits chewing their cud, the slaughter of the innocents, all of Exodus, magical cures for Leprosy, and so forth.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 27, 2011, 06:37:30 PM
except for the fact that harry potter books are fantasy. The history and prophecies in the Bible are proven to be real. and history continued to prove the prophecies to be true.

Please click this lovely link to see a few hundred some-odd ways that the history in the bible is complete and utter garbage. Literally HUNDREDS.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

Unfortunately, the author of the S.A.B. mixed science and history together, so you may upset yourself by reading things like the fact that Yahweh invented light before the light-producing stars, or plants before there was a sun to feed them.

You can feel free to ignore the sciencey bits if you like since we're talking history. But this does a pretty good job of ventilating your claim that any biblical history was proven true, let alone *ALL* of it.

Who is it that you think proved this stuff anyway? Please don't tell me the bible. PLEASE don't say it was the bible. You can't let your brain go to goo to the point where you allow a book to make claims about itself and then accept it. That's really, really bad thinking.

Even little kids don't do that. Please don't be one of THOSE guys.  :-\

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on October 27, 2011, 07:26:15 PM
except for the fact that harry potter books are fantasy. The history and prophecies in the Bible are proven to be real. and history continued to prove the prophecies to be true.

Tell that to the Jews.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: JeffPT on October 27, 2011, 10:45:03 PM
i present the facts and you bash. no offense, but i was told that i would be respected if i did that.

kaboose, let me ask you a hypothetical question.  If you had a really old book in your possession that talked about a person coming in the future who did a bunch of stuff, and you were a modern writer who was very interested (for whatever reason) in portraying someone you had heard about as that very person, how hard would it be to write about them doing the very things in the book you'd read? 

Let me give you an example..

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!  Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey. 

Now, the "fulfilling" of this comes in Matthew 21:5  Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

If you were a gospel writer (we have no idea who wrote them, BTW), and you wanted to say that this guy Jesus was the prophesied person who would come in on a colt, and you were writing several decades AFTER the fact, how hard would it have been to simply write it in?  Not hard at all.  In fact, that is what happened with some of these things. 

And what about this one...

Zechariah 13:6.  Now, depending on which version of the bible you use, you get wounds in different places.  Only in the KJV of the bible do you see the wounds on the hands.  In almost every other version, it's different.  NIV says "Wounds on your body".  ESV says "wounds on your back".  NASB says "wounds between your arms".  ASV = "wounds between thine arms". 

But lets look at the whole passage here.  Zechariah 13.  Is it really talking about Jesus?  Read it over and make your judgement.  And remember now, you are using this stuff as PROOF that all of it was real.  Is this REALLY talking about Jesus?  Pay close attention to the words and see.  There's just no way.  The last sentence is not prophetic of Jesus' crucifixion. 

Quote
“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.

"On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive.  Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’

There is no chance that the word "they" in the last sentence is referring to Jesus.  It is referring to the prophets who were no longer allowed to be prophesiers anymore.  And how does the notion of being given the wounds "at the house of my friends" fit in?  Are you going to try and say that this is a metaphorical statement linking back to his betrayal by Judas?  As if Judas himself had stabbed him?  That's a really, REALLY big stretch if you ask me.  Certainly not enough to say it's a direct prophesy from an almighty being.

You see, this is the type of stuff you have to be careful about, kaboose.  There are lots of Christians who really WANT to believe these things are prophesies.  And while you may say that it is WE who do NOT want to believe in God, please keep in mind that if you were assessing ANY other book, you would likely approach these prophesies with the same degree of skepticism that we use on the bible.  If you give the bible some sort of free pass just because you WISH it were true, then you are no longer looking for the truth.  You're looking to verify what you think.  An atheist goes no harder or softer on ANY religious work.  They approach it all the same way.  That's why we reject them all.  Here... I will give you an example from the Quran...

Quote
"And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4)

This is a Quran quote that supposedly prophesies the notion that we will one day be able to 'move mountains' (with dynamite and such).  But is it?  If you read the whole passage...

Quote
When the sun is covered, And when the stars darken,
And when the mountains are made to pass away,
And when the camels are left untended,

... you clearly see that this is not a prophesy about the future ability for humans to move mountains.  It is an end times prophesy. 

Do you see how that works?  You HAVE to use the same level of skepticism for both the bible and every other book.  If you don't, you're just not looking for truth.

If we are really seeing a supernatural foretelling of the future, there should be absolutely no doubt about it.  You also have to remember that the bible stories have been altered, changed and manipulated throughout the entire period since they were written.  So it is not out of the realm of possibility that events that  occurred many years later could have made it in. 

There are no rock solid prophesies in the bible that could not possibly be explained any other way than with the Goddidit theory.  None.  Go ahead and look for them.  There aren't any.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: One Above All on October 28, 2011, 01:39:48 AM
Just saying that something's a fact doesn't make it a fact.  You have to prove it.

And the point of Lucifer's creative editing was to point out that it's all a matter of perspective.  Someone who strongly believes in something will be much more likely reject other conclusions without seriously thinking about them.  The fact that you thought he was bashing you proves this.


Quoted For Truth.

If I wanted to bash you, I'd do something far worse. I was trying to be subtle about it, but apparently you didn't catch on. What jaimehlers said is 100% correct.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on October 28, 2011, 08:19:27 AM
here is a problem though, kaboose:

Quote from: joshua 6:1
Now the gates of Jericho were securely barred because of the Israelites. No one went out and no one came in.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+6&version=NIV

jericho was empty when joshua was supposed to have conquored it.   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho#Historicity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho#Later_occupation
http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/bryantwood.php
http://www.truthbeknown.com/biblemyth.htm  <-- great article
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/archeology.html

So, how likely is it that it got a prophecy correct when it did not even accurately describe the events in the first place?  How likely is it that the "prophecy" was actually written after it was fulfilled?

I recommend you try this book: Bible Unearthed (http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Israel-Finkelstein/dp/B001VDSSCW) by Finkelstein and Silberman 

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: ungod on October 28, 2011, 09:10:54 AM
Umm, isn't this presuming that there IS such a thing as an intelligent Christian?

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Hatter23 on October 28, 2011, 09:31:15 AM
Umm, isn't this presuming that there IS such a thing as an intelligent Christian?

There are plenty of intelligent Christians; all of them are delusional. None can seem to avoid arguments that are composed of

A) Appealing to Ingornace: We cant't explain the universe: therefore God
B) Appealing to Pity: Jesus suffered: therefore God
C) Special Pleading: All those other Gods aren't real, mine is; Therefore God
D) Appealing to Antiquity: Christianity has survived 2000 years; therefore God
E) Appealing to Authority: The Bible say God is real. The Bible is the book of God; Therefore God
F) Circular Reasoning: The Bible is a Fact because is fortells events contained in the bible that are other facts; Therefore God
G) Appeal to Personal Incredulity; 'God did it' is simple to understand; Therefore God
H) Equivocation: The Universe must have had a creator: Therefore the Judeo-Christian God
I) Appealing to Negative Consequences: God will send you to hell for not believing in him; Therefore God
J)Appeal to Popularity: There are a lot of Christians; therefore God



Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: velkyn on October 28, 2011, 10:50:38 AM
My question is, how can people predict things of that magnitude if there is no God? How do the prophets of God prophecy  the future in such specific ways and have them fulfilled? These events are proven to be true and fulfilled, just look it up. History proves the Bible. Math shows the probabilities. Now please think carefully about this statement: With respect to evidence, it takes a far greater leap of faith to not believe in God and the Bible than to have faith in God and to believe what the Bible says.

Kaboose, I see you didn’t take my advice to read the site more before you came back.  Do you understand the concept of people writing things that aren’t true?  Especially to “confirm” a prophecy many years later?   Other religion claim to have their prophecies come true to.  Do you believe in all of those?  If not why?  You have presented no facts, only bad old rehashs from Christian websites,  all assumptiosn with no basis in reality.

You also show your ignorance of your own bible and you simply spew stuff you’ve found on other websites.  Your supposed “messiah” fails again and again in fulfilling prophecies in the OT, to the point that Christians have had to make up a “second coming” for him to fit them in.  That’s why there are whole websites showing how badly Christians lie about the Jewish myths: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

Add this to the fact that there is no archaelogical evidence for the essential claims of the bible, no contemporary mentions of them, etc, it shows your book to be no more “historical” than the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Mahabharata, etc.  There might be an occaional mention of a documentable person or place but the story isn’t true, just like a modern political thriller. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 28, 2011, 03:57:28 PM
i present the facts and you bash. no offense, but i was told that i would be respected if i did that.

You did not present facts. Are you lying, or do you honestly think you presented facts?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Anfauglir on October 29, 2011, 03:46:36 AM
Okay, well i do have a few questions. All of the prophecies told in the old testament have come true. There is historical proof of it all. but there were the prophecies written before it all happened. For example look at the prophecy found in Joshua 6:26. It was written about 1451 B.C. ......

Okay, let's start here, with a few questions.

Where does this date come from?
Can we be sure that 6:26 was not a later insert into a much older document?
This "prophecy" took 500 years to come true.  That's a long time.....the longer the period of time, the more chance there is of something happening.  How do you differentiate between genuine prophecy and "random guess" fulfilled by time?
How do you factor for people striving to fulfil a "prophecy"?  Can you be sure that the sons dies naturally, as opposed to (say) murder or poisoning by a zealot who is desperate to make the "prophecies" happen?

You've been researching for several weeks, so I'm sure you have considered all of the above....as opposed to, say, looking only for things that support your argument and not asking awkward questions about the "facts" you uncovered?
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaboose on October 29, 2011, 04:01:23 AM

okay, well i feel as though i can only post one last time, so this will be a good one because i am going to prove to you that the bible is a viable source therefore proving that all that was written (at least in the historical sense) is true. A lot of you say that you want proof that the bible's prophecies are viable outside of the bible, well i would like to first point out a prophecy written so long ago (we all know that the bible wasn't recently written) and it is being fulfilled today. What is happening in Israel today? Jews from every country are returning to their home land. Does prophecy talk about this? Jeremiah 23:3 states "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries wither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase" Isaiah 43:5 & 6 state" Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; and I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth";There is no doubt about it. The Jews are returning to their homeland from every corner of the earth. Prophecy is being fulfilled right before our eyes!

Want further proof? In Ezekiel chapter 36, God addresses the Israelites "24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land." The Jews have the best army in the world today, the smartest scientists, and live in a little strip of land that the whole world disputes because the nations of this world are under Satan's control. The nations of the world will bring about their own destruction because God said" And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." Ever since Hitler's slaughter of the Jews, we gave them Jerusalem back for a safe haven for them. There are so many who want Jerusalem, but the nations protect it. I don't see how you can state this any other way besides the bible predicted future events.

Now to all of you who still say the bible cannot be trusted, i would like to ask you if you have ever trusted in an autobiography written about someone who lived many years before us, written about someone you have never personally met or seen in pictures. Autobiographies obviously have some bias because they are written by individuals about themselves. They certainly could misinterpret some of their experiences, but how many readers would toss out an autobiography as not a trustworthy book about the author? So, why toss out portions of scripture that are autobiographical?

Many biographies are written by people who loved the person they are writing about, but we do not question their validity. Yes, we may see some prejudices or favoritism in a biography, but we can overall trust most biographies, because if they were inaccurate there would be an uproar from others. So, why toss out portions of scripture that are biographical? Unless we have proof they are inaccurate, we need to give them the same trust we would a modern day biography.

i know that you want archaeological proof that the bible can be trusted and there are finds in fact that proves that the people and the places did in fact exist in the bible and weren't made up. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html) This is a small article talking about some archaeological finds proving some of the events in the bible true. don't let the link fool you, this article is based on real archaeological finds. There are other archaeological finds that talk about Jesus being a real man. I know that you know that these have been found to be true because Jesus is talked about in the Encyclopedia Britannica. http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html (http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html) This is a page that shows some things written out of the bible that refer to the Jesus mentioned in the bible proving that He existed. but what is interesting is that if Jesus was real (shown by other documents other than the bible) and He did in fact say He was the Son of God, why wouldn't He have been written out of the Bible if He were wrong? The Jews hated Him when they crucified Him. They had witnessed His miracles, but believed Him to be a heretic, which makes it interesting that the entire New Testament is written basically about Him and His works. There are many witnesses and they wrote their stories explaining what they saw. Some say that it can't be trusted because of the religious content in the bible, but if the bible can be shown to be true through archaeological findings and personal notes written by other people saying that those things existed, then why can't we trust it? Historians only discredit biographies and autobiographies when they are proven false by others, but the people and the things in the bible are mentioned in more than just the Bible. so therefore it can't be discredited as at least a historical artifact.  But we must also ultimately ask the question, since Jesus existed. Is He God, or was he a liar, or was He a lunatic? http://www.creatingfutures.net/jesus.html (http://www.creatingfutures.net/jesus.html) this page really explains this very well with some quotes by people about how, with all of the witnessing evidence that archaeologists have found written about Jesus, Jesus couldn't have been a liar or a lunatic. I will let you decide for yourself on that, but i would like to talk about 2 things before i go.

1: the reason why i will not be posting on this site anymore is because i don't feel as though you are looking for any real answers, but you are instead just looking to say other's are wrong and that atheism is right. I'm not saying this by thought, but by how much i have seen of that on this site. Like obviously there are the christians that aren't very christian at all, but i don't think those people should count because they lack wisdom, but with the overwhelming evidence that i have found on the internet explaining so many of your questions in such logical ways, i just don't understand how you could even ask them still. i will provide some links to sites that i found to be very good places to find answers to these questions. but another reason why i'm leaving is because i don't feel as though i could be able to present this stuff in the best way because it is on a forum where so many people just post really stupid crap sometimes (some of the "christians" do too). Like i know that there are those who have a lot of education too and they aren't obnoxious like some, but this isn't the kind of place to seek answers. If you are in a community full of people who will shoot down anything, then how are you going to be able to even consider the things said by christians? i am sure a lot of you aren't like that and do consider them, but if you truely consider them, then i think that you'd find the answer in God. every question asked i have found the answer for. But you see this is where wisdom from God comes in. I honestly did not understand a lot of things in my faith before i started posting on this site, and i have no regrets whatsoever because it has brought me so much closer to God. I have given myself an opportunity to defend and to be honest i feel as though i did a good job, but i just can't do quite the same of a good job as i could in person. i hope you understand that i'm not giving up on any of you. on the contrary. I have been praying for all of you every night ( i know this means probably nothing to you, but honestly my prayers come from every compasionate part of my heart, and you all mean so much to me.) . I just don't think that i am called to keep presenting to you on a forum, but i will keep learning from here and seeing things, and maybe making a post every month or 2. but i just think that personal relationships are the best way to go about this. For all of you who understand christianity in any sort of way, you know that what i'm saying is something that christians believe in. because i have no religion, i have a relationship with God. and i believe that relationships are the best of saying what needs to be said.

Now the 2nd thing is that i am extremely disappointed that even though the bible has been taken as historical fact, you still say it's not true. you work on a basis of evidence. but you see that's not how the world works all of the time. You have no evidence of how the big bang even occured, yet you have faith that the universe is in fact all around us. We have no evidence disproving the bible as any sort of historical fact, so we should have faith that it is true, much like many other things written from long ago. why is the bible any different? The world is built on faith. it has been from the start. We have been advancing in science a lot, but as we go further, there are still questions that we need faith to believe they are true and that this universe isn't fake. I do want to talk about a man talked about in the bible. Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples. He said that He would not believe that Jesus had come back from the dead until he had put his fingers through the holes in His hands and felt the hole in His side from when He was stabbed on the cross. But when Jesus came in, He let him do those things so he could believe. now these fundamental words that, in light of all that has been said, Jesus said are "you believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who believe and have not seen." He is talking directly to all of you. He isn't saying that He will rebuke you, but that your beliefs shouldn't be based on complete evidence, but faith. Atheism is in fact a faith. You trust in your evidence, and whatever might prove what you believe, but in fact you are missing so much evidence, so where is your faith?

 I will not preach to you because it is against the rules, but i hope you see all that i have said as maybe thought provoking. i do pray that you will at least go over this with a completely open mind. Go through the sites i will provide at the bottom and try to find the questions that you have asked your whole life in them. If you don't find it, then talk to someone in person about it. a good christian person. someone that you know. because asking about it on a forum will only give you advice from people you don't even know or trust. so what is the good in that? I do love you all and i really don't want you thinking that i'm bailing, because i have given evidence of the bible's validity and Jesus' validity, which is what you've asked for. and please don't respond to this in a quick manor. honestly if you go to your bed or a quiet place and try to pray, even just once, with all of your heart, Just asking God to help you see what He has been trying to show you your entire life (He will answer this prayer), and then answer my post, i will gladly respond to you. but don't go and do this and expect an instant response, because God will work in His own ways at His own time, but He will answer it. I just want you to come to my side for a bit because i have spent so long on your's, and i think that it's rather cowardly not to ever give God a chance. Like how bad can eternal life in heaven with a loving God be? I do not want you, if you know you will, to go into a prayer constantly thinking that He will not answer it or any doubt in your mind. Seriously just have some sense of faith that there must be a god who loves you and knows you more than you do yourself and individually wants a relationship with you. i mean i know you can't pretend to believe, but if you call out to God, He will hear you. He will. I have no doubt in my mind that He will hear all of you and answer you. just don't expect a verbal response. but give that a try after going through these sites and the answers they provide to certain questions. and i will gladly keep in touch with you in any way i can whether that be by email or this site. i must go to bed now though. I will talk to you all later at some point in time hopefully.

PS: if i could talk to each and every one of you personally, i would. i would give up my time in my life to talk to you about this because i believe that your soul is greater than my time.

http://www.creatingfutures.net/evidence.html (http://www.creatingfutures.net/evidence.html)
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html (http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html)
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Anfauglir on October 29, 2011, 04:24:16 AM
1: the reason why i will not be posting on this site anymore is because i don't feel as though you are looking for any real answers.......

Kaboose, I could say the same about you.  All you seem to have done so far is list some assertions about the alleged "prophecies".  Can you answer the questions I posed above?  Or are YOU not looking for real answers....just those that support your worldview?

i know that you want archaeological proof that the bible can be trusted and there are finds in fact that proves that the people and the places did in fact exist in the bible and weren't made up....
Like Nazareth, for example?   But seriously - showing that some of the people and places in the Bible were real is quite irrelevant.  Read the Richard Sharpe novels, the MAcro & Cato books....read James Bond, read Harry Potter, read damn near any book you like set in this world, and you'll see reference after reference to people, places, and events that really existed.  But does that mean that Sharpe, Bond, Potter, Sherlock Holmes, the Psammead, Karlsson on the Roof all really existed too?

That the Bible features some real places and real historical characters is by no means "proof" that any of its important claims are true...not even if important dates and events were NOT significantly out where it matters most.  What is important in the Bible is whether its claims about Yahweh and Jesus are correct.....and noting that "Pilate existed, and Jesusalem is a real place" does NOT address those claims in the slightest.

PS: if i could talk to each and every one of you personally, i would. i would give up my time in my life to talk to you about this because i believe that your soul is greater than my time.
Then I hope you will stick around, and answer some of the genuine questions being put to you that you have not yet addressed.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: C on October 29, 2011, 04:51:54 AM

okay, well i feel as though i can only post one last time, so this will be a good one because i am going to prove to you that the bible is a viable source therefore proving that all that was written (at least in the historical sense) is true. A lot of you say that you want proof that the bible's prophecies are viable outside of the bible, well i would like to first point out a prophecy written so long ago (we all know that the bible wasn't recently written) and it is being fulfilled today. What is happening in Israel today? Jews from every country are returning to their home land. Does prophecy talk about this? Jeremiah 23:3 states "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries wither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase" Isaiah 43:5 & 6 state" Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; and I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth";There is no doubt about it. The Jews are returning to their homeland from every corner of the earth. Prophecy is being fulfilled right before our eyes!

Right...the Jews have been migrating to the said area since 70 CE illegally and legally. This "prophecy" is too general, too broad. It can be said for any one group of people.

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Want further proof? In Ezekiel chapter 36, God addresses the Israelites "24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land." The Jews have the best army in the world today, the smartest scientists, and live in a little strip of land that the whole world disputes because the nations of this world are under Satan's control.

You are unbelievably stupid. Israel does not have the best army nor the smartest scientists. Though they are carrying out their own little systematic dismantling of a people who have been living on that land causing other Arab nations to get pissed off which in turn causes the international community to get involved. Add in more than 1000 years of violence and cesspool-quality politics and you get what you have today to put it in very simple terms.

And Satan controlling entire governments? LOL. What's next? The Rice Krispies Elves controlling legions of dolphins?


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The nations of the world will bring about their own destruction because God said" And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." Ever since Hitler's slaughter of the Jews, we gave them Jerusalem back for a safe haven for them. There are so many who want Jerusalem, but the nations protect it. I don't see how you can state this any other way besides the bible predicted future events.

More nonsense. It's also ironic how that "safe haven" also happens to be a hot spot for terrorists and street violence.

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Now to all of you who still say the bible cannot be trusted, i would like to ask you if you have ever trusted in an autobiography written about someone who lived many years before us, written about someone you have never personally met or seen in pictures. Autobiographies obviously have some bias because they are written by individuals about themselves. They certainly could misinterpret some of their experiences, but how many readers would toss out an autobiography as not a trustworthy book about the author? So, why toss out portions of scripture that are autobiographical?

First, if only autobiographies exist, then we can see which parts of the autobiographies are true such as their achievements. Say, if Person A claimed he/she built the pyramids of Giza alone, we would know from the evidence and data gathered that more than one person was obviously involved. The Bible is completely different from an autobiography in that you cannot prove an invisible sky god who's omniscient and omnipotent came down and possessed a sack of flesh in one particular location for a particular length of time to spread the word of salvation but didn't do so in other parts of the world.

The Bible is nonsense complete with disgusting content that encompasses divinely justified genocides, infanticides, animal & human sacrifices, misogyny, homophobia and slavery.

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Many biographies are written by people who loved the person they are writing about, but we do not question their validity. Yes, we may see some prejudices or favoritism in a biography, but we can overall trust most biographies, because if they were inaccurate there would be an uproar from others. So, why toss out portions of scripture that are biographical? Unless we have proof they are inaccurate, we need to give them the same trust we would a modern day biography.

We DO have proof that almost all the events in the Bible are complete and utter bullshit. The Tower of Babel? A global deluge? Crossing of the Red Sea? Resurrection of a carpenter? Adam and Eve? The list goes on.

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i know that you want archaeological proof that the bible can be trusted and there are finds in fact that proves that the people and the places did in fact exist in the bible and weren't made up. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html) This is a small article talking about some archaeological finds proving some of the events in the bible true.

Just because you put in a semblance of historical setting into a story doesn't make it historically accurate. It'd be like saying Leo Tolstoy's War & Peace is 100% history or Assassins Creed being more accurate than Wikipedia and the Britannica Encyclopedia combined.

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don't let the link fool you,

It's Christian. That's enough for me to not even bother clicking the link. It's probably more of the apologist crap that's spewed out by Bible-defending fanatics on why the Bible is 100% accurate and the word of God.

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this article is based on real archaeological finds. There are other archaeological finds that talk about Jesus being a real man. I know that you know that these have been found to be true because Jesus is talked about in the Encyclopedia Britannica. http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html (http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html) This is a page that shows some things written out of the bible that refer to the Jesus mentioned in the bible proving that He existed. but what is interesting is that if Jesus was real (shown by other documents other than the bible) and He did in fact say He was the Son of God, why wouldn't He have been written out of the Bible if He were wrong?

Zeus is in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Is he real? What about Odin? Thor? Vishnu? Tengri? The countless animal spirits of shamanism? And your reasoning of "if Jesus was real and he did in fact say he was the son of god, why wouldn't he have been written out of the Bible..?" is incredibly flawed.

That'd be like taking Harry Potter out of the Harry Potter books. Why would you take out the most important protagonist of the story that you created and edited just for the sole purpose of tricking people that Jesus was more godly than manly?

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The Jews hated Him when they crucified Him.

Romans crucified him, the Jews just didn't like him supposedly.

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They had witnessed His miracles, but believed Him to be a heretic, which makes it interesting that the entire New Testament is written basically about Him and His works. There are many witnesses and they wrote their stories explaining what they saw.

NONE of the Gospel authors ever knew Jesus. Not a single one. These were all written LONG after the alleged existence of Jesus. And then processed for editing for the new religion on the rise in the Roman Empire: Christianity. They also contradict each other on various things such as Joseph's father, how Jesus was treated by family, how Judas died and so forth.

No witnesses. Nothing. All bullshit.

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Some say that it can't be trusted because of the religious content in the bible, but if the bible can be shown to be true through archaeological findings and personal notes written by other people saying that those things existed,

Shit.

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then why can't we trust it? Historians only discredit biographies and autobiographies when they are proven false by others, but the people and the things in the bible are mentioned in more than just the Bible. so therefore it can't be discredited as at least a historical artifact.

More shit. Are you ever going to address the people in this thread directly? This is just fucking preaching and arguing from what you hold to be true in your mind.

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But we must also ultimately ask the question, since Jesus existed. Is He God, or was he a liar, or was He a lunatic?

Doesn't matter, didn't exist as a "Messiah".

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http://www.creatingfutures.net/jesus.html (http://www.creatingfutures.net/jesus.html) this page really explains this very well with some quotes by people about how, with all of the witnessing evidence that archaeologists have found written about Jesus, Jesus couldn't have been a liar or a lunatic. I will let you decide for yourself on that, but i would like to talk about 2 things before i go.

Horseshit.

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1: the reason why i will not be posting on this site anymore is because i don't feel as though you are looking for any real answers, but you are instead just looking to say other's are wrong and that atheism is right.

Whoo~, running away. Simple, direct, and no thinking involved. Good for you.

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I'm not saying this by thought, but by how much i have seen of that on this site. Like obviously there are the christians that aren't very christian at all, but i don't think those people should count because they lack wisdom,

So what? You're the only True Christian and possess all of the wisdom given to you directly by the creator of the universe? Horseshit has been promoted to Gooseshit.


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but with the overwhelming evidence that i have found on the internet explaining so many of your questions in such logical ways,

You have one hell of a twisted definition of "logical" and you did NOT answer any questions. At all.

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i just don't understand how you could even ask them still. i will provide some links to sites that i found to be very good places to find answers to these questions. but another reason why i'm leaving is because i don't feel as though i could be able to present this stuff in the best way because it is on a forum where so many people just post really stupid crap sometimes (some of the "christians" do too).

You are fucking pathetic. Including "Christians" so you don't seem that "anti-nonbeliever". Good job.

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Like i know that there are those who have a lot of education too and they aren't obnoxious like some, but this isn't the kind of place to seek answers. If you are in a community full of people who will shoot down anything, then how are you going to be able to even consider the things said by christians?

The people here don't shoot down everything. They only shoot down stupid shit like this.

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i am sure a lot of you aren't like that and do consider them, but if you truely consider them, then i think that you'd find the answer in God

Gooseshit promoted to Bullocks.

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I have given myself an opportunity to defend and to be honest i feel as though i did a good job, but i just can't do quite the same of a good job as i could in person.

If we met in person, you'd be very dissappointed. The results would be the same. You'd probably get a "call" from your mother or whatever and say you have to go and give me some pamphlet on why a God that is willing to create sinful human beings so they can go to hell to suffer for all eternity loves me. Yeah fuck you too mate.

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i hope you understand that i'm not giving up on any of you. on the contrary. I have been praying for all of you every night ( i know this means probably nothing to you, but honestly my prayers come from every compasionate part of my heart, and you all mean so much to me.)

Thank you.

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I just don't think that i am called to keep presenting to you on a forum, but i will keep learning from here and seeing things, and maybe making a post every month or 2. but i just think that personal relationships are the best way to go about this. For all of you who understand christianity in any sort of way, you know that what i'm saying is something that christians believe in. because i have no religion, i have a relationship with God. and i believe that relationships are the best of saying what needs to be said.

... Okay.

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Now the 2nd thing is that i am extremely disappointed that even though the bible has been taken as historical fact, you still say it's not true.

That's because it ISN'T true.

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you work on a basis of evidence. but you see that's not how the world works all of the time.

The world works like this all the time.

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You have no evidence of how the big bang even occured,

Amazing. Simply baffling. For the sake of argument, let's throw out the Big Bang Theory, the laws of physics and hell, even the Theory of Evolution. How would this make the existence of your silly god even remotely plausible?

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yet you have faith that the universe is in fact all around us. We have no evidence disproving the bible as any sort of historical fact, so we should have faith that it is true, much like many other things written from long ago. why is the bible any different? The world is built on faith. it has been from the start. We have been advancing in science a lot, but as we go further, there are still questions that we need faith to believe they are true and that this universe isn't fake.

Hey, uh, guess how many contributions your religion, even less the existence of your god, has made towards the advancement of science and the answering of very complex questions?

I will give you a hint:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5XG-tzzJy-0/Toocm3EMNjI/AAAAAAAACUk/LSWhgPN7d6M/s320/None%2BAt%2BAll%2B.jpg)

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I do want to talk about a man talked about in the bible. Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples. He said that He would not believe that Jesus had come back from the dead until he had put his fingers through the holes in His hands and felt the hole in His side from when He was stabbed on the cross. But when Jesus came in, He let him do those things so he could believe. now these fundamental words that, in light of all that has been said, Jesus said are "you believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who believe and have not seen." He is talking directly to all of you. He isn't saying that He will rebuke you, but that your beliefs shouldn't be based on complete evidence, but faith. Atheism is in fact a faith. You trust in your evidence, and whatever might prove what you believe, but in fact you are missing so much evidence, so where is your faith?

Fuck your faith. Faith did not help millions of starving children live. Faith did not help the dead boy I held. Faith did not eradicate polio. Faith did not have everyone come together in unison for the Occupy protests. Faith did not help end any war. It is amusing how Jesus appeared back then so many times that the Bible itself says "over 500 people", but where is he now? In the figment of your imagination. That's where.

And atheism does not require faith. It is essentially the lack of faith.

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I will not preach to you because it is against the rules, but i hope you see all that i have said as maybe thought provoking.

You just preached. And it was not thought provoking. It's the same shit we read every day.

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i do pray that you will at least go over this with a completely open mind. Go through the sites i will provide at the bottom and try to find the questions that you have asked your whole life in them. If you don't find it, then talk to someone in person about it. a good christian person. someone that you know.

Bullocks upgraded to ShitForBrains.

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because asking about it on a forum will only give you advice from people you don't even know or trust. so what is the good in that?

Stupid on so many levels.

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I do love you all and i really don't want you thinking that i'm bailing,

Nice covering your ass. But thank you. I also hate you. Just for the giggles.

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because i have given evidence of the bible's validity and Jesus' validity, which is what you've asked for. and please don't respond to this in a quick manor. honestly if you go to your bed or a quiet place and try to pray, even just once, with all of your heart, Just asking God to help you see what He has been trying to show you your entire life (He will answer this prayer), and then answer my post, i will gladly respond to you.

You fail to realize almost EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US were Christian for a long time. Oh but wait, maybe we didn't have wisdom like you do?


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but don't go and do this and expect an instant response, because God will work in His own ways at His own time, but He will answer it. I just want you to come to my side for a bit because i have spent so long on your's,

Child, you did not even spend a fraction of our wasted time as former Christians on this forum.

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and i think that it's rather cowardly not to ever give God a chance. Like how bad can eternal life in heaven with a loving God be?

Considering it's the same God that just doesn't give a shit about the world and looooves animal sacrifices (humans occasionally), I'd rather spend time in hell, chillaxing with your evil Satan.

Also: It's not that we don't like the idea of eternal life meeting your deceased relatives, eating nice gourmet, playing all freaking day for an eternity and being happy. It's that we are repulsed at the idea that the very concept of hell and such a God even exist.

Also it's better that we focus more on our present life since it's our ONLY life (do you remember anything before you were born? That's what most likely awaits you.) and concentrate on making such a paradise for everybody HERE and not AFTER we're dead.

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I do not want you, if you know you will, to go into a prayer constantly thinking that He will not answer it or any doubt in your mind. Seriously just have some sense of faith that there must be a god who loves you and knows you more than you do yourself and individually wants a relationship with you. i mean i know you can't pretend to believe, but if you call out to God, He will hear you. He will. I have no doubt in my mind that He will hear all of you and answer you. just don't expect a verbal response. but give that a try after going through these sites and the answers they provide to certain questions. and i will gladly keep in touch with you in any way i can whether that be by email or this site. i must go to bed now though. I will talk to you all later at some point in time hopefully.

Good night artard.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on October 29, 2011, 09:08:30 AM
That poor, sweet, dopey, deluded man. 

He reminds me of the old ladies who used to give out candy apples at halloween, not knowing that our parents made us throw them away out of fear they were poisoned or had needles in them. 

He doesn't know anything and even worse, when he tried to learn something all the xian websites lied to him. They literally lied to him and made him even dumber.  What a disappointment.

Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kin hell on October 29, 2011, 09:49:43 AM
....sad waste really, but truthfully his automatic presumption that whatever we say is wrong while not addressing any of the relevant questions would rapidly become intolerable.

The stupid theist calling the at-least-open-to-rational-discussion atheists closed minded wears thin.

Fuck these I-dedicate-my-cognitive-function-to-god mouthbreathers are boring, and I would much prefer that take their cheap concern and prayers for my soul elsewhere, and just think for themselves for a while in a quiet place about the glaring idiocy that is blind faith..

How many constructive questions were asked and ignored?

The cowards way out, much easier than rationally answering questions with cogent responses. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: nogodsforme on October 29, 2011, 02:08:42 PM
I just had a student this week tell me that we have more factual documentation of Jesus than we have of Julius Caesar. How can I accept that Julius Caesar lived but not Jesus? They just don't get the fact that we reject so much religious stuff as nonsense because it relies on magical miraculous supernatural flimflamery that DOES NOT EVER REALLY HAPPEN. Factual documentation cannot include impossible magical events. Then we don't call it factual. We call it fictional.

"Why do you accept a biography of a famous person from some ancient time as true?" Because the biography of Julius Caesar does not say that he flew to heaven and brought back a unicorn and then turned into a giant sunflower and brought peace to all the world. If the biography said that, we would not believe it was true. But they expect us to believe a story about Jesus that says that he did stuff like that.

Moreover, people in power, like the Roman emperors, popes, kings, etc, have forced everyone under their control to "believe" in the bible stories, or else. Education consisted of reading bible passages up until the 19th century in many places. It is not as if the bible was placed alongside all other available books and judged impartially for truth value. It was accept the bible. Period.

Does kaboose imagine that a kid in Afghanistan raised in a refugee camp, educated for five years by a fundamentalist Saudi imam in a madrasa where they only memorize the Quran, can be expected to objectively judge the truth value of Islam? Would he be swayed by logical arguments if he has no other information except what the Quran says about the world? If kaboose can relate to the frustration he would have with that Afghani kid, he can begin to understand how frustrated we are with folks like him. :P

ps And oh, yes, the Muslim kid would be praying to Allah for kaboose to see the true wisdom of Islam. Just like my Muslim students promise to pray for me.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on October 31, 2011, 09:04:20 AM
Also, we have things Caesar wrote.  We have sculptures Caesar posed for.  We have tons and tons of documentation about Caesar written while Caesar was alive by his contemporaries.

Who ever says we have as much or more documentation about jesus H as we do Caesar has not done 30 seconds worth of research on the matter.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: naemhni on October 31, 2011, 09:58:34 AM
Also, we have things Caesar wrote.  We have sculptures Caesar posed for.  We have tons and tons of documentation about Caesar written while Caesar was alive by his contemporaries.

Who ever says we have as much or more documentation about jesus H as we do Caesar has not done 30 seconds worth of research on the matter.

I received a similar challenge on this once, but it was on firmer ground: Alexander the Great, for whom there actually are no surviving contemporary accounts.  (There are still those pesky cities he founded to account for, of course...)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: velkyn on October 31, 2011, 10:35:59 AM
PS: if i could talk to each and every one of you personally, i would. i would give up my time in my life to talk to you about this because i believe that your soul is greater than my time.

No, I don’t think you would, since you give such garbage right now.  You are one more Christian throwing shit at a wall and hoping some of it sticks.  You want to claim that “we” aren’t looking for answers, which is a pathetic LIE.  I do get so TIRED of theists who constantly lie about others to save their own ignorance.  You all keep claiming that your magical prayers will work and they don’t, not one single one.  But you’ll never acknowledge that.  No, you’ll keep lying and demonstrating that you don’t really believe in this nonsense, you only are frightened greedy people. 

You are the coward here, Kaboose.  A coward and a liar.  Many of us, including me have reached out to this god and have received nothing. You’ll just hide and claim that we didn’t do something “right” or that it’s “god’s will”.  You are an unfortunately accurate representative of  Christianity.  And hopefully, by your actions and those of your fellows, you hasten the demise of your ignorant faith by your every deceitful word. 
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: nogodsforme on October 31, 2011, 03:42:43 PM
^^^^^velkyn, you need to stop holding back. Tell us how you really feel.... ;)
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: WiccaBillinCo on October 31, 2011, 06:44:58 PM
Velkyn, you're so right. If these clowns had ANY idea how many tears I shed on my knees to the Flying Spaghetti Monster they wouldn't even go there. They automatically assume that we hate god, hate christians, and just want to score points, in some cases it may be true, but the fact is that's exactly what they are doing.
I think you said it perfect. I especially love the ones on other sites who offer their "Proof" or their "Questions Atheist can't answer", then block all comments and letters to them. It's like a spoiled little kid that yells something, then put their hand over their ears and sings, la la la, so they can't hear the answer, much like Caboose is doing right now. (I'm going to throw a bunch of crap, then shut off so I can't hear you"). Funny, he didn't answer one question, then says WE aren't looking for honest answers. Perhaps some aren't, but I know I'd like to hear one real discussion on the subject.
Christians love to spout out their crap and then ask questions that they never want to hear an answer to, (IE: If god isn't real, where did the 10 commandments come from? Stop laughing, it was a real question!) I told them that Pope Clementine XVIII wrote them in the 10th century. He was known as the "foot" pope because he wore boxes without tops for shoes.  They said "Oh" and walked away.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: kaziglu bey on October 31, 2011, 07:38:08 PM

The Jews have the best army in the world today,


LOL! Out of Kaboose's entire proclamation, this above phrase is what stood out to me the most. Sure, there was a lot of the typical idiocy in there, but seriously? The Jews have the best army in the world today? REALLY? How can anyone who makes such a hopelessly foolish statement and expect to be taken seriously? Israel's army is pretty good, especially for a country it's size, but come on, how much of their military supplies do they actually innovate, develop, and produce on their own? Not much compared to the USA. And they don't have the naval or air power to truly back it up.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: Ivellios on November 01, 2011, 12:11:42 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force

This is just one branch of the Ireali military.

How many planes came about due to Isreali innovation, design and manufacture?

I guess you're saying these among many are Isreali: Boeing, Beech, McDonnell Douglas, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Piper, Cessna, Grumman, Bell, North American, Sikorsky and many many many others.

Out off 119 aircraft, how many are Isreali?

.
.
.


9

Looks like without America, Great Britian, Canada, Germany and many other countries Isreal almost wouldn't even have anything to use.

You see, in order to be a "good" military, not only must you have the power to defend your country and be able to defend the new territory you conquer. You also need to be able to have the infrastructure to support it. Pre-1941 Japan knew this. They made a strike, but the main targets were not in Pearl Harbor. They hurt us, but they knew that if they didn't take out those carriers, it was only a matter of time before they lost.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: screwtape on November 01, 2011, 08:32:58 AM
don't forget, the US taxpayer funds israel's military to the tune of $3 billion every year.
Title: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
Post by: nogodsforme on November 01, 2011, 04:17:06 PM
don't forget, the US taxpayer funds israel's military to the tune of $3 billion every year.

At least in part because of many US Christians' belief in these "prophecies". Can't people see how circular this stuff is? None of this is due to godly magic. Most Jews don't even buy this crap--many are atheists. They stopped believing they were the specially protected people of god around....oh the middle of the last century. :P