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Community Zone => Testimonials => Topic started by: laura1 on December 08, 2010, 02:37:46 AM

Title: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 08, 2010, 02:37:46 AM
Quote from: MODBREAK
This topic has been created from a split.



Hi  I would like to add to the discussion, I am a christian I do believe in God and the Trinity and the Bible, but i do also question, seek answers, dont accept everything and know for a fact that many people who speak on behalf of God do not speak on behalf of God, just cause we cant understand God with our minds and put Him in a box doesnt mean he doesnt exist.  We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on?  Can an ant understand a human, my cat doesnt understand me, he looks at me as if im crazy when i do aerobics and thinks to himself why dont i sleep instead?  My cat cant understand why i dont climb through the window like he does and go and look for a juicy mouse to eat.

Phillip Yancey is a christian author if you love to read, read his books he also asks so many questions about God, honest questions, questions of the heart.  Every human asks where do i come from? Why am I hear? Where am I going? Is there a God? Is there a Devil? What was before the world, the Bible says the earth was formless and dark, how did the formless dark earth get there before God spoke light and then created the earth more as we know it.  I think I have more questions than you guys, but that doesnt mean i have to not believe in God just cause I cant understand, just cause I cant get a black and white answer all neatly typed out for me delivered to me on a page from Heaven.  I dont understand why babies die, why there are badly deformed babies, one thing I know is God created a perfect world, no sin, no weeds, no distruction, no hatred, no murdering and humans didnt want that way they wanted their way.

God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die? are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions? where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke

lots of love laura   
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Operator_011 on December 08, 2010, 04:15:33 AM
Hi Laura1, welcome to the forum.

I've split this post into its own thread. It's probably best not to revive dead threads, especially when the last post in that thread is from a moderator telling someone else not to revive dead threads. Further, if you make these sorts of claims you'll be expected to support them with evidence. One last thing, if you do not tell us why you believe, then your post amounts to preachng, which is not allowed at WWGHA. I recommend following this link (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?board=3.0) and reading the rules, etiquette guides and FAQ's.

Thank you.


Eleven.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Str82Hell on December 08, 2010, 07:25:32 AM
Hai Laura, welcome to the forum.

The red line through your testimonial is that you believe despite the fact that you don't know everything. Many of us don't believe despite they don't know everything.

E.g. since you don't know how the universe came to be, there's no reason not to believe in God (according to you), but according to most atheists, the fact that we don't know how the universe came to be is not an indication to believe in God either.

Theists are quick to say 'Godidit'. Out of body and near death experiences are a good example. When we first became aware of these phenomena, there was no natural explanation for it and theists therefore assumed it was proof for the existence of God (because we could not explain it in a natural way). More sceptical people just said: "we don't have a natural explanation, yet, maybe we will never get a natural explanation, but that is not proof of the supernatural".

Religion however does make claims which are verifiable. It is easy to prove that the Koran or Bible cannot be 100% true in the literal sense and I'm going to assume you're intelligent enough to understand this, so I won't elaborate on this. However, it is not always clear which parts of the Bible should be interpreted literally and which parts have a figurative meaning and not all Christians will agree on it. Should the Genesis creation narrative be interpreted literally, and if yes which parts and which parts not (there are two different, contradicting Genesis narratives)?. If you're going to say that it should be taken literally, it is rather easy to demonstrate that you're wrong. It has been proven that the earth is around 4.2 billion years old and that the universe is around 13.7 billions years old (which still does not exclude the existence of God or God as a creator, but it refutes the Bible's Genesis narrative).

Some things are incorrect though. For example, Exodus tells us that the Israelites lived in the desert for 40 years after leaving Egypt, but there are no archeological traces of a large settlement of Jewish serfs, there are no traces of a longtime inhabitation of the desert between Egypt and Palestina and there are no traces of a Jewish conquest of Canaan. So it did not happen.
Some claims made by the Bible or Christians are also shown to be wrong. Research has shown that there's no statistically significant benefit to prayer. God may answer your prayers or he may not, but if he decides to answer your prayer, he does it in the same rate as helping people who did not pray. So if God's divine plan is already determined, what point is there in praying to God to help you?
From experience we know that the more society advances, the less gods remain. In the past we had gods for thunder (Thor, Zeus), love (Venus/Aphrodite, Amor/Cupid/Eros). Now that we have explained these phenomena in a naturalistic way, there's no need for such gods anymore. It demonstrates us that people believe in God/gods because they don't know everything, not despite they don't know everything.
What questions does the Christian God answer? Might we be able to answer these questions in a natural way in the future? If not, is it correct to assume God exists because we don't know the answer? To the last question, I'd say no.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Aaron123 on December 08, 2010, 11:06:16 AM
Hello Laura!  Welcome to the fourms.

We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on?

But people do know how they work, otherwise, we wouldn't have cell phones, cars, etc.  What you meant to say was that you don't know how those things works.  That does not mean others do not.  And even if you don't know, you can easily find out for yourself.  You can look it up online, read a book, talk to an expert, etc.


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Can an ant understand a human, my cat doesnt understand me, he looks at me as if im crazy when i do aerobics and thinks to himself why dont i sleep instead?  My cat cant understand why i dont climb through the window like he does and go and look for a juicy mouse to eat.

Your cat had physical contact with you whenever you hold and pet him.  He knows with 100% certainy that you exists.  I don't think this sort of unambiguous situation is comparable with god.

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God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return


So what's he waiting for?



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i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die?


Either I'll be buried six feet under or I'll be cremated.  I haven't made my mind up yet which I want.


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are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions?


In the strictest sense; yes.  But honestly, I don't care if that is the case.


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where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke

And this is god-of-the-gaps/wishful thinking.  Just because you find an idea to be more comforting does not make it true.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: velkyn on December 08, 2010, 11:28:04 AM
Hi  I would like to add to the discussion, I am a christian I do believe in God and the Trinity and the Bible, but i do also question, seek answers, dont accept everything and know for a fact that many people who speak on behalf of God do not speak on behalf of God, just cause we cant understand God with our minds and put Him in a box doesnt mean he doesnt exist.  We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on?  Can an ant understand a human, my cat doesnt understand me, he looks at me as if im crazy when i do aerobics and thinks to himself why dont i sleep instead?  My cat cant understand why i dont climb through the window like he does and go and look for a juicy mouse to eat.
hello laura.  Your arguments are similar to many we've seen here.  It is common for a Christian to think that those "other" Christians are wrong.  And people do know how technology works.  You may not, but that's simply becasue you are ignorant about the subject.  Trying to use this as an excuse why people don't understand God the "right", aka your way, fails because we are supposedly talking about a beign that could make it self understood if it wanted. 

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Phillip Yancey is a christian author if you love to read, read his books he also asks so many questions about God, honest questions, questions of the heart.  Every human asks where do i come from? Why am I hear? Where am I going? Is there a God? Is there a Devil? What was before the world, the Bible says the earth was formless and dark, how did the formless dark earth get there before God spoke light and then created the earth more as we know it.  I think I have more questions than you guys, but that doesnt mean i have to not believe in God just cause I cant understand, just cause I cant get a black and white answer all neatly typed out for me delivered to me on a page from Heaven.  I dont understand why babies die, why there are badly deformed babies, one thing I know is God created a perfect world, no sin, no weeds, no distruction, no hatred, no murdering and humans didnt want that way they wanted their way.
I love to read but I have standards.  PHillip Yancey is just one more apologist who wants to use his particular magic decoder ring.   I suspect you do have mor questions than we do, since most of us are happy with the answer that god simply doesn't exist.  That makes the most sense.  YOu seem to want to believe in god no matter what, which indicates a lack of interest in finding anythign that disagrees with you.  You don't *know* god created anything. You only claim to know it because you've been told a story you have decided to believe.  You are just one more Christian who claims ignorance when convenient, especially if it's about God being a right bastard, and knowledge the same way, if you want to claim that god is ever-so good.   

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God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die? are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions? where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke
There we go again with the convenient claims of knowledge.  You are delusion and you do beleive in fairy tales.  And ah, the usual "ask in your heart".  Well, I have and I know I am dead when I die.  NO magical prize at the end of my life.  Your religion plays on the fear of death and the threat of hell. Even if God existed I still would not worship such a being.  You don't have the answers; you dont' even have one. You only have baseless claims constructed to keep your faith alive. 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Nick on December 08, 2010, 11:44:12 AM
Welcome Laura,
  Would you send that cat to a firey death for all time if it did not play by your rules?  The cat hardly knows better.  Maybe if you wrote a book for it to read it might know what you want.

  Yes, we are a bunch of chemicals.  That is life.  When it is over it is over.  Enjoy your time here.  All thru history man has tried to live beyond his limits.  An afterlife seems promising and lets us think our love ones are still with us.  We are like all the plants and animals...when it is over it is over.

Oh, and have a good day. ;)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Historicity on December 08, 2010, 11:51:57 AM
We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on? 
Yes, I do, and I can tell you how if I had space.

Try this with your TV remote.  Stand out of line of sight with the TV and point the remote at a white object such as a white wall.  You can get the TV to respond.  From that you can conclude that it's some invisible wavelength of light that still reacts to most white surfaces as if they were visible.   You could conclude that the TV remote uses an invisible color of light.  I just tested it with one of my pairs of 3D glasses, moving further and further back until it started to fail.  It started to fail thru the pale blue lens first and was still 100% thru the dark red lens.  So the invisible color is probably close to the red end of the spectrum.  I had had faith when I had read the the LEDs of remotes were now infrared.  Because of you I have just had experimental evidence.

The TV remote is repeatably testable.   There is not just a statistical correlation above a confidence limit, it's a slam dunk.

My remote got insensitive after a year.  I reasoned out that like any flashlight it gets dimmer as the battery runs down.  I changed it and, yes, that was it.

It's the same with the other items you mention.

I also know how the 4 cycle internal combustion engine works, what the 15 to 1 ratio means and why knock occurs.  Maybe faith and prayer will repair a car engine.  I don't know.  I've always used reasoning.

If you like to read, why don't you read some science books?  And learn the reasoning system behind the science.


Title: Re: I believe
Post by: naemhni on December 08, 2010, 11:59:23 AM
Try this with your TV remote.  Stand out of line of sight with the TV and point the remote at a white object such as a white wall.  You can get the TV to respond.  From that you can conclude that it's some invisible wavelength of light that still reacts to most white surfaces as if they were visible.   You could conclude that the TV remote uses an invisible color of light.  I just tested it with one of my pairs of 3D glasses, moving further and further back until it started to fail.  It started to fail thru the pale blue lens first and was still 100% thru the dark red lens.  So the invisible color is probably close to the red end of the spectrum.  I had had faith when I had read the the LEDs of remotes were now infrared.  Because of you I have just had experimental evidence.

Here's one that's even more fun.  Get your remote, then get a digital camcorder, any old kind will do... digital point-and-shoot cameras typically include a movie mode.  Turn the camera on in movie mode and start recording.  Point your remote at the camera and press a few different buttons.  Stop the recording and play it back.

Now, to the human eye, of course, infrared is invisible -- but it will show up as a bright white light in the video you just made.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Barracuda on December 08, 2010, 12:08:47 PM
Welcome to the forums.

Hi  I would like to add to the discussion, I am a christian I do believe in God and the Trinity and the Bible, but i do also question, seek answers,
As you would imagine, I have plenty of objections to Christianity. But I'll just focus on one question for now; Why would God require human sacrifice (Jesus) in order to forgive sins? Doesn't seem to make much sense when you think about it. Wouldn't he just be able to forgive under his own will? Don't see much point, or even relevance, in the whole crucifixion part.

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God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die? are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions? where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke
I'll probably just stop being conscious when I die. I'm guessing the experience will be somewhat similar to the billions of years that passed before I was born. And, physically, yes, I think I am "just a bunch of cells and chemical reactions," although obviously it is more meaningful to me than other chemical reactions.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 09, 2010, 04:56:23 AM
hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: monkeymind on December 09, 2010, 05:01:19 AM
hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

Yes.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 09, 2010, 05:16:01 AM
.. no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, ...

Laura I would love it if there could be more beyond this life.  But that is wishful thinking.  I have to face reality.

Facing reality with honesty and courage is what atheism is all about for me.  Because there is no comforting lalawoowoo for me I simply HAVE to make my own meaning and purpose in this life.  I cannot operate like an obsequious puppy to some imaginary leader/care-giver outside my body.

It's a big shift in the way I look at life and my relationships with others - the human beings, and the animals, and everything.  It makes me quite angry when I think of how much time and opportunity I wasted on faith and its baggage, not realising that I had to make my life what I want it to be  :)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Gaston on December 09, 2010, 05:22:50 AM
hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     

I've always existed... The seemingly only difference now, is that I'm conscious about it...
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: naemhni on December 09, 2010, 06:33:39 AM
angles

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Str82Hell on December 09, 2010, 08:36:03 AM
are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.
First of all, the world is not going to change because I want it to be different.
Yes, I'm happy to exist, to be born, to live. I'd rather not die, but if I have to, that'll be the case and it wouldn't matter either because I wouldn't exist anymore. I don't need to go anywhere anymore, I don't need a reason for existence, a cause would be fine. I give my life purpose and meaning as I see fit. Angles, devils, fairies, gods, Jesus, demons, ghosts and gnomes are not anything I need to live my life the way I want. Agreed, they might be fun, but I think I'm grown out of it. I embrace life like it is and I won't let my view be hindered with fairy tales. Sometimes that may be difficult, but most of the times you're better prepared to react to things happening around you.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 09, 2010, 09:00:39 AM
Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

lots of love
laura 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 09, 2010, 09:02:09 AM
hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     

Yes. I am happy because I am fortunate enough to live for a very brief moment in time. I am happy that I have a chance to experience life, with all its ups and downs.

I wish I could live for a lot longer than I actually will but at least I know that when I die I won't be around to care anyway.

Before you and I were born, we didn't exist. Whatever was happening in the universe, here on earth, before we were born was utterly and completely irrelevant to us because we were not here to give a damn.

When we die, we will return to that state. A stateless state. That comforts me. I may never smile or enjoy another sunset... but I will never suffer again either. I cherish the moments I do have while I am alive.

One can be happy while accepting reality for what it is. There is no need for a fairytale to keep oneself 'happy'. It doesn't really make anyone happier, it just puts a veil over their eyes.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 09, 2010, 09:07:47 AM
Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

We don't get meaning in life... we give meaning to our lives.

We get to assign meaning and significance and value to our lives. We are the authors of our own happiness.

For me, being alive itself means something to me. I have family and friends I love and love me back. I have a wonderful wife and an incredible daughter. I love my job. I love my music and actively play in a band.

My life is full of things I love and happiness. It means something to me and those close to me.

You don't need something or someone supernatural to give you meaning. You are the one holding the paintbrush. You get to paint your own picture of life.

(but no fairytales allowed please  ;))
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: velkyn on December 09, 2010, 09:09:47 AM
Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

lots of love
laura
what a lovely assumption that atheists have no meaning in life. :P  I sure is does upset most Christians that people who don't agree with them are just as happy or happier than they are.  I have meaning in life from my friends, family, husband, pets, work, good food and good drink. 

I don't think you "want to understand" at all.  You want validation for your myths. You ignore all of our points and then blither on with the usual ignorant Christian assumptions. 

 I think it's rather sad that Christians can't seem to want to do anything unless they get a scooby snack at the end of their lives. 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 09, 2010, 09:11:30 AM
We have someone asking some sincere questions. Remember many of us were theists previously.

Let's be gentle.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: naemhni on December 09, 2010, 10:01:24 AM
how does one get meaning in life

We make it for ourselves, or we simply don't have any.  Everyone has different answers for this.  My own view is that life does not have a meaning, it simply is.  For me, it makes no more sense to ask what life's meaning is any more than it does to ask what Neptune's meaning is.  Neptune doesn't have a meaning or a purpose.  It's just there.

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does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose

Most people do, whether they're religious or not.

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or you just happy to just be trodding along?

I personally am not, but that is not because I am an atheist.  I have various personal problems that prevent me from being as happy as other people are, but those problems would be exactly the same if I were a Christian, a Muslim, or a Buddhist.  Atheism has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Aaron123 on December 09, 2010, 10:21:18 AM
Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life,

Everyone gives their own lives meaning, whenever they intend to or not.  However, what their lives actually means to them is dependent on that person.  For some, the meaning of their lives might be to be married, have a family, and spend time with the kids.  For others, being a doctor is what give their lives meaning.  For other still, being a movie director and becoming famous is the meaning to their lives.  Other spend time doing charity works.  For others, life is incomplete without a pet cat or dog.  Others may think racecar driving is needed in their lives.  Which is correct?  In a way, they all are.  Those are all cases of people doing things to make their lives meaningful.  People do this regardless of whenever or not they're religious.


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does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose

Generaly, that's how the world works.  Satisfaction and purpose tends not to be handed to you on a silver platter.  That's true regardless of whenever or not they're religious.


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or you just happy to just be trodding along?

Some people might be.  Others are not.  Some motivate themselves to become doctors, lawyers, go to college, etc.  That's the same for everyone, regardless of whenever they're christian or not.  Religion is a smokescreen; it makes you think magic invisible beings are guiding your life, whereas in actuality, you are the one that guides your own life.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on December 09, 2010, 01:23:27 PM
Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

Why should you be given meaning just out of the blue? Are you incapable of giving yourself or those around you any meaning, or are you just happy pretending to be a plaything that can be discarded any time your (imaginary) deity wants?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Barracuda on December 09, 2010, 02:52:13 PM
hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     
Personally, no. I wish there was something after death but I just don't think there is.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 05:10:39 PM
Hey, laura.

I've a question for you to ponder.  Why do you think so many of us here were believers and lost our belief?

That's not a loaded question and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to.  I'd be interested in your answer if you feel like offering it, though.

Title: Re: I believe
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 09, 2010, 05:34:47 PM
I find it very disturbing that so many religious people such as yourself seem to be completely unable to see any purpose or enjoyment in life without their religion.  You believe an omni-wizard created and controls everything, yet the idea that YOU can give your life a purpose and live a long happy life is impossible to grasp.  What's so strange about thinking that you can enjoy life and be a good person without their being anything after?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 05:41:16 PM
Hey, FFJB.


In my personal experience, using that argument has gotten me far further with theists than any other.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 10, 2010, 03:21:14 AM
Hi, 

I have read all the replies, Im thinking about the question from Agga that many athiests were christians and believers and then just began to know believe that there is any God and I can see why,it may surprise you that I can see your point of view, im not here to hammer and push any one to believe what I believe and how I believe.

Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all, Ive been in a church where suppossedly the Holy Spirit was moving and people were falling under the spirit and laying on the floor etc only years later i wanted to understand and read that it was not the Holy Spirit but something else, Ive seen the things that go on, im not ignorant to the faults and the jokes of the church.  I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure.  Why did God want a sacrifice for sin and then have to send Jesus to die, was there not another way to deal with sin.  I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

lots of love laura       
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: kin hell on December 10, 2010, 04:06:22 AM
Hi, 

 I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

lots of love laura       

laura  those of us here who are atheists don't believe there is a god  so
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but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

.........is a pretty damn stupid suggestion, and insulting at the same time implying we are without balance.

Perhaps you need to think about what you are actually writing, and what it actually means before you hit the post button, otherwise you are going to continue posting inane vacuous bubblehead when really you may be more intelligent than that.

I guarantee you, if you continue without thought, to just regurgitate the pap that you have been fed , your stay here will be somewhat rocky as our tolerance levels are relatively low towards the stupid, and or the rude.

I hope you are neither of these, and it is just your posts sofar that have been.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 10, 2010, 04:40:28 AM
I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure. 

Laura, ask yourself why a loving omnipotent god, if it exists, would let that happen?  :?

Any how does one detect the genuine article - a text or person that really DOES speak on behalf of God?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 10, 2010, 05:31:47 AM
I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.   

But that's just it; if you can make the most of your life, giving it purpose and meaning, why allow for God?  There certainly isn't any reason to believe he exists, so what would the point be?  To feel better?  But we already lead a wonderful life without religion; there's already a balance.  If anything, what you're proposing could very well throw off that balance.  If I had to either follow a set of rules, quite a few of which I don't agree with, or live with the constant fear of being tortured forever, I don't think my life could be near as happy.  I'd have to shun some of my best friends and family members I love because they're gay.  I couldn't have had the relationship I have now with my wife because of Christianity's rules.  How can you say God would bring balance when it would, without a doubt, completely tip the scale?

And of course there's also the issue of choosing WHICH God, but I won't get in to that right now. 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 10, 2010, 06:30:32 AM
hi Frofrodajimmyboy I just wanted to ask which christian rules would force you to get rid of your freinds and family, my understanding is that Jesus was having dinner in the tax collectors houses they were stealing and thiefs and he prevented a whole mob from stoning a prostitute to death, he didnt want her killed, he called a hated tax collector down from a tree, he wanted to go to lunch at his house, he wanted us to love our neighbour.  There was  a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road.

Im not arguing with you just maybe showing you something

lots of love laura   
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 10, 2010, 08:07:25 AM
... he called a hated tax collector down from a tree, he wanted to go to lunch at his house, ...

It's interesting that a guy who could just magic up some money in a fishes mouth to pay his taxes was willing to save and befriend the hated tax collector - and to score a free lunch too :laugh:

But I'll say this for Jesus: Even if he did do clever magic tricks to pay taxes he DID pay taxes - unlike most religions today  :?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: hickdive on December 10, 2010, 08:22:59 AM
Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all, Ive been in a church where suppossedly the Holy Spirit was moving and people were falling under the spirit and laying on the floor etc only years later i wanted to understand and read that it was not the Holy Spirit but something else, Ive seen the things that go on, im not ignorant to the faults and the jokes of the church.  I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure. 

To address this;

I think it is important for you to bear in mind that there are many atheists who simply do not believe in gods. The fact that there are charlatans and abusers within the theistic community is a source of dismay and, possibly, amusement but that's not the principle reason why many don't believe. Personally speaking, I don't believe because I see no evidence for their existence. Whether or not the RC church is riddled with predatory paedophiles or other religions have their own shames is neither here nor there. I haven't been let down or disappointed by a church or religious people, I just don't believe in gods.

There was  a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road.

Im not arguing with you just maybe showing you something

lots of love laura

Let me ask you this; what religion was the samaritan?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 10, 2010, 08:43:40 AM
Im not arguing with you just maybe showing you something

Laura, you do know that the "Golden Rule" was articulated a long time before Jesus by many different people in many different cultures?  It's not like Jesus invented kindness and empathy :)  I'm not being critical of the teachings - I'm only critical of the reverence people assign to Jesus and incorrectly ascribing such ideas to Jesus as the originator. 

It's impossible to reconcile gentle Jesus with his Father (or is it himself?  :-\) as the God of the OT - perpetrating, commanding and aiding mass killings of sinners and His "enemies", and the "enemies" of His chosen people.  God of the OT is a racist vengeful killer - no doubt about what is written.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 10, 2010, 09:08:39 AM
Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all ...

<snip>

I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure.

Laura... this is another classic. Theists assume that we stopped believing in god because we had a bad experience, something or someone let us down, we're sad, angry, dissapointed.... this is absolutely false.

I did not lose my belief in god that way. I simply grew out of my believe like a child stops believing in Santa at a certain point. I didn't feel the presence of any god. I started reading the bible, investigating, listening to all the apologetics and arguments against his existence. I gradually stopped believing because reason, logic and an love for science lead me there. I realized there is no evidence whatsoever for a god.

Also, don't forget  that there are atheists here who never believed in god. They were simply raised in a family of non-theists and were never indoctrinated.

Am I pissed off at child-raping priests and corrupt church officials? Of course. Am I pissed off that theists point at homosexuals as if they are wretched sinners? Of course! Am I pissed off that people are trying to pass legislation based on a 2000 year old book of of myths? Yes! ... but that's not what puts me off the idea. It's reality and the facts that do.

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Why did God want a sacrifice for sin and then have to send Jesus to die, was there not another way to deal with sin.

Are you asking us? 'cause we asked you that question.

Here's the answer in case you were wondering ... the Jesus myth was invented and written in the bible by a bunch of primitive supersticious men. These were primitive tribal men that carried out blood sacrifices and burnt offerings, enslaved other human beings and stoned women and opppressed them. Read your bible. For example, it tells you exactly how to treat your slaves:

Here are instructions about who you can enslave:Leviticus 25:44-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025:44-46&version=NIV)
Here are some of the conditions of slavery:Exodus 21:2-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:2-6&version=NIV)
Here are the instructions on how to beat your slaves: Exodus 21:20-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:20-21&version=NKJV)
... and there are even instructions on sex slavery of women: Exodus 21:7-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:7-11&version=NKJV)

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I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

What are we balancing? There is nothing to balance. If one gives one's own life meaning, nothing else is required.

Question for you:

Why do you think you believe in god?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 10, 2010, 09:33:59 AM
hi Frofrodajimmyboy I just wanted to ask which christian rules would force you to get rid of your freinds and family,

My best friend and several of my family members are homosexual.  I'd be forced to look down upon them, as associating with such sinners could very well land me in hell.  Even if I were safe, I wouldn't find much comfort in the thought that the people closest to me would be tortured eternally.  Sure, I could try to force them to be something they're not, but that would sever my bond with them pretty quick. 

Of course, I could just disregard that rule, but then I'm just another Cafeteria Christian, which would not only make me look moronic, hypcoritcial, delusional, etc, but I'd also be risking hell again.  We're talking about ETERNAL torture here; should I really take the chance of reading things anything but literally? 

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my understanding is that Jesus was having dinner in the tax collectors houses they were stealing and thiefs and he prevented a whole mob from stoning a prostitute to death, he didnt want her killed, he called a hated tax collector down from a tree, he wanted to go to lunch at his house, he wanted us to love our neighbour.  There was  a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road


This is fairly preachy and not all the relevant to what I said.  Yes, I get that the Bible says Jesus was a pretty cool guy.  He wants us to help people, turn the other cheek (unless you're that god damned fig tree), and love our neighbor, but that doesn't mean much.  None of that really contradicts the rules that were set out before, and he even adds some new ones to the fray, such as giving up all of our possesions.  All those things he said about being good to others are things I already do and had begun doing naturally; "Allowing for God" would only introduce the bad aspects of the Bible to my life. 

And then, of course, there's the simple fact that he doesn't exist.  Every single thing in the Bible could coincide exactly with my values and it still wouldn't be meaningless.  Sure, I'd hold the book in higher regard, but Jesus and his pop never existed, so why on Earth would I "allow for them"?  Why would I denote time to worshipping fictional characters?  A hundred other books (for example, Harry Potter) tought a better moral code than the Bible, so there are a lot of characters in line that I'd worship before God...  That is, if I lost all of my sense and decided to worship fiction at all.

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Im not arguing with you just maybe showing you something

You're certainly not showing anything new. 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: velkyn on December 10, 2010, 12:25:20 PM
Hi, 

I have read all the replies, Im thinking about the question from Agga that many athiests were christians and believers and then just began to know believe that there is any God and I can see why,it may surprise you that I can see your point of view, im not here to hammer and push any one to believe what I believe and how I believe.
yep, you may have read them but you just ignored what they said.  YOu just spew more nonsense to make yourself feel better.  You also evidently can't be bothered to write like an intelligent human being, assuming your first language is English.  You use enough colloquialisms to make me thing it is and that you are simply lazy and think it's cute.

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Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all, Ive been in a church where suppossedly the Holy Spirit was moving and people were falling under the spirit and laying on the floor etc only years later i wanted to understand and read that it was not the Holy Spirit but something else,
Oh yere we go, the psychic Christian who "knows" why athesits are atheists.  I was indeed let down by the church but then I went directly to God to give it a chance to show me why it let my church disintergrate into hatred.  I prayed and prayed and not no answer. I then researched other religions and came to the conclusion, from the facts you understand, that all religions are man-made.  YOu are also just one more vain Christian who wants to play pretend that you and only you are the OneTrueChristiantm

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Ive seen the things that go on, im not ignorant to the faults and the jokes of the church.  I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure.  Why did God want a sacrifice for sin and then have to send Jesus to die, was there not another way to deal with sin.  I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.
Yep, more OneTrueChristiantm crap.  It always amazes me that Chrisitans are so vain to think that they can speak for God but get so offended if someone else who disagrees wtih them makes the exact same baseless claim.  I do like how you think you can ask the questions put to you and not bother answering them.  I'm also amused that you are *still* desperately tryin to convince yourself that atheists are somehow unhappy and unwhole without your magical sky spook. 

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hi Frofrodajimmyboy I just wanted to ask which christian rules would force you to get rid of your freinds and family, my understanding is that Jesus was having dinner in the tax collectors houses they were stealing and thiefs and he prevented a whole mob from stoning a prostitute to death, he didnt want her killed, he called a hated tax collector down from a tree, he wanted to go to lunch at his house, he wanted us to love our neighbour.  There was  a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road.
and one more Christian who cherry picks or maybe is just ignorant of her bible.  Your "savior" has said repeatedly that one has to abandon one's family if one is worthy of following him.  Read that holy book and you might be the one who gets shown something.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Astreja on December 12, 2010, 03:01:46 AM
We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal?

IMNSHO, this is an extremely poor analogy.  A lot of people do know how such things work; otherwise, they couldn't have invented such things.  We also have instruments that can detect the "invisible" electromagnetic radiation created by such devices as transmission towers, but we are yet to invent a device that can detect supernatural radiation from gods.

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Where do you think you are going when you die?

The crematorium, probably, and eventually back into the ecosystem.

are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

Well, if you really want to understand, Laura, try this thought experiment.  It's one that I tried back in 1968.

Imagine yourself looking at the whole of the universal time line.  Focus on any inhabited planet.  Watch a civilization come into being.  Watch it advance, degenerate, and fade away.

Now zoom out to the planetary scale.

Now do likewise with the universe as a whole, and the totality of existence from the moment of the Big Bang to the end of time.

You can even put your god and its heaven in there if you want, but it simply does not matter.  Even if you get to spend forever and a day sitting at the side of Jesus, there is still no meaning or purpose to be found because there's always one more moment to explain.

So, where is the meaning of life?  Try looking in the present moment... But leave your ego out of it.  Currently I'm hugging a tabby cat who happens to be standing in my lap.  Do whatever you like to do, but pay rapt attention to every possible detail as you do it.  You won't have time for existential angst, because you'll be much too busy living your life.

Why did God want a sacrifice for sin and then have to send Jesus to die, was there not another way to deal with sin.

Precisely, Laura.  The Christian message is an inelegant mess of "explanations" that just raise more questions.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Barracuda on December 12, 2010, 05:13:59 PM
Why would God require human sacrifice (Jesus) in order to forgive sins? Doesn't seem to make much sense when you think about it. Wouldn't he just be able to forgive under his own will? Don't see much point, or even relevance, in the whole crucifixion part.
Do you have any thoughts on this, Laura?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 13, 2010, 02:15:00 AM
Hi My friends

I am seeing your points, I am not able to argue or im not trying to push my beliefs on you, i just like to chat to others different from me with different views, I do explore and find out other views, I find also that it is hard to believe in a God one cant see, touch or talk to audibly.  Maybe i do seek a crutch or live fantasies, somehow a world with God makes more sense to me than without God and to you a world without God makes more sense, I suppose everyone is different and able to believe how they do, I talk to all people not just my little circle and close my eyes to the rest, I cant argue your points, but enjoy chatting not to prove im right and you wrong,

lots of love laura 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: hickdive on December 13, 2010, 03:00:33 AM
but enjoy chatting not to prove im right and you wrong,

lots of love laura

The difference is that atheists aren't out to tell everyone else how to live their lives. I could be wrong about the existence of gods but, even if I am right, that doesn't give me the authority to tell others how to dress, what they can eat, who they can love etc. which is what the theistic do to everyone else. Perhaps, in the security of your beliefs, you could spread the message amongst your fellow believers that you have no unique code of moral behaviour you can impose on others?

One final thing. Friendship and love are two of the most powerful emotions humans can have, they can propel us to unbelievable devotion and heroics. Please don't demean those emotions by professing them to random strangers on the internet. Save them for your real friends and your real loved ones.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 13, 2010, 04:01:30 AM
I find also that it is hard to believe in a God one cant see, touch or talk to audibly.  Maybe i do seek a crutch or live fantasies  ...

Laura, it comes down to integrity.  Let's say for one little minute there is a God and He can see into your mind ... would He respect you for pretending somehow to believe.  Or would He respect you more for standing firm on the senses and reasoning power you have in your possession.  Would a God actually want your eternal company in heaven if you regarded him as a "crutch" or some kind of comforting fantasy?   

Can you find the honesty to say out loud that religion is man-made rubbish, and the courage to to say "I don't know"?   Faith is a lazy escape route for not facing reality.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 13, 2010, 06:23:37 AM
Hi do aethiests then perhaps have a stronger personality, more independant, more self thinking, able to do things themselves, not needing anyone to tell them what to do and how to do it, that takes a real strong person which is to be admired, as apposed to religious people who may have a dependant personality needing to depend on someyone and God.  Would athiest be strong willed as to be able to start a company and make it grow and make lots of money and really make things work cause they depend on themselves and there is noyone else to depend on.  Whereas religious folk need crutches and excuses and are weak personalities dependant on others and God?

thanks looking forward to your take on this

kind regards laura   
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 13, 2010, 06:52:29 AM
Hi do aethiests then perhaps have a stronger personality ...

Laura I'd hate to generalise like that - some "default" atheists are good-for-nothing flakes.  What I'm talking about is a person who has really thought about what religion claims and has to offer, and has made a clear decision that evidence and reason does not support religion. 

For me personally, when I finally found the courage to reject the baggage and childhood brainwashing of my religion, the awakening was profound.  For the first time in my life I came to understand the term: "Internal locus of control."  It was that realisation that put the spark back into my life. 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Str82Hell on December 13, 2010, 06:58:05 AM
I don't think it's that simple. It has been demonstrated that atheism corresponds with higher levels of intelligence and therefore they'll probably earn more on average. However, atheists are just humans too. I'm a university student and I try not to depend on other people when possible (which has worked out great in some situation), but on the other hand I don't have much will power. I think that an intelligent Christian who thinks God helps him with every steps he makes will be as capable as an intelligent atheist to lead a business.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 13, 2010, 07:04:53 AM
I don't think it's that simple. It has been demonstrated that atheism corresponds with higher levels of intelligence and therefore they'll probably earn more on average.

For that to be valid you'd have to exclude pastors :police: :laugh:
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 13, 2010, 07:51:01 AM
Hi thanks for the replies, i do find that lots of things the overly overly religious people do are irritating, i follow my own kind of intellegence at the same time believe in God, but i am a very dependant on other people and God kind of person.  I admire people like Ophra and so on who have had such a tough upbrining yet have really made something of her life. Id say maybe cause ive lived a protected life always at my parents home etc i became too dependant, but i feel God has given me the option to think for myself too, I can choose which career, which relationship, which path, but i havent really made the great success Id have liked to have made career wise, not really cause of religion maybe just cause i dont motivate myself enough, not a strong personality type, so i was comparing the success of someyone who has religion as aposed to someyone who doesnt, its really up to us, God has given me free choice of career etc

thanks for listening hope to hear from you soon

kind regards

laura 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 13, 2010, 08:10:25 AM
.. God has given me free choice of career etc

God gives sweet fuckall:

(http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2010/09//45330-a-malnourished-baby-cries-in-his-mothers-lap-inside-medicine.jpg)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: kin hell on December 13, 2010, 09:26:07 AM
I don't think it's that simple. It has been demonstrated that atheism corresponds with higher levels of intelligence and therefore they'll probably earn more on average.

For that to be valid you'd have to exclude pastors :police: :laugh:

Bullshit William you just know those money oriented mega churches have got to be run by the biggest scamming athiests of all  ;)

+1 for the god gives sweet fuckall  QFT
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 13, 2010, 11:04:04 AM
Hi thanks for the replies, i do find that lots of things the overly overly religious people do are irritating,

You know, the more 'overly' religious they are, the more closely they actually follow the texts in the bible.

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i follow my own kind of intellegence at the same time believe in God, but i am a very dependant on other people and God kind of person.

You are what we call a 'cafeteria christian'. My parents and family are the same. You believe in god in a way that doesn't interfere with your own values and morals. You have probably never read the bible[1] and you just keep the parts of your religion you are comfortable with.

In general, I don't have a problem with cafeteria christians, but on a personal level it annoys me because they are basically rolling up their own personal brand of faitytale religious superstitions and then passing it on to their kids. Religion creates an emotional dependency to it that is harmful to people. Reality is much better.

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I admire people like Ophra and so on who have had such a tough upbrining yet have really made something of her life.

I'll avoid a big Oprah debate here. I'll give her credit for her success story, but she has become morbidly manipulating to retain ratings from the american public... I despise that.

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Id say maybe cause ive lived a protected life always at my parents home etc i became too dependant, but i feel God has given me the option to think for myself too, I can choose which career, which relationship, which path, but i havent really made the great success Id have liked to have made career wise, not really cause of religion maybe just cause i dont motivate myself enough, not a strong personality type, so i was comparing the success of someyone who has religion as aposed to someyone who doesnt, its really up to us, God has given me free choice of career etc

Look Laura, there is no god. You happen to have been born into a christian, protective family. You happen to have the personality that you have. You happen to have found yourself in the circumstances that you found yourself with the choices that you find yourself with.

William's post showcases just how ridiculous it is for you to believe that god is giving you your trivial career choices while giving the child in the picture absolutely nothing. No food, no medicine, no hope.

It's not just ridiculous to hold such a belief, it's apalling and selfish.

You sound like a nice person Laura ... you don't really think god is giving you all these things while he completely deprives millions of children and innocent people worldwide of more basic things.

The only way to explain why there are starving children, natural disasters and innocent victims is that there is no god and this is just the way the world has played out up to now.

An all-loving, all-powerful god would not allow what you see in the picture to happen.

Praying to him is useless. He doesn't exist. Giving to charity to alleviate the suffering in this world is much more useful. WE, humanity, are the only ones that can do something about this. Not some imaginary fairytale daddy in the sky.
 1. You also completely ignored my post about how the bible endorses slavery and even sex slavery of women
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Str82Hell on December 13, 2010, 04:11:18 PM
As long as you won't deny gay people the same right you have or other badshit insane stuff, that's fine with me, but if you want to get your questions answered for real, you should always keep asking.

Anyway, watch this Youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3), I think it's a truly great series to which I can relate.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Odin on December 13, 2010, 06:49:48 PM
I dont understand why babies die, why there are badly deformed babies, one thing I know is God created a perfect world

The reason babies dies and are born badly deformed is that there is no loving god to look after them.  The estimate is that about 25,000 children die every day in this world from malnutrition and preventable diseases.  This is down from 40,000 a day just a couple of decades ago.  This "improvement" is the result of man's power - better nutrition, better sanitation, and better health care.  If we had waited on god, 40,000 or more would still be dying every day.

"According to the American Cancer Society, for all stages of pancreatic cancer combined, the one-year relative survival rate is 20%, and the five-year rate is 4%."[1]  This is true despite prayer, belief and religion.  The religious and praying and prayed-for die at the same rates as any others.

That is the basis of this site.  The five-year rate of restoration of amputees' limbs is 0.00%. 

Odin, King of the Gods

 1. http://www.pancreatic.org/site/c.htJYJ8MPIwE/b.891917/k.5123/Prognosis_of_Pancreatic_Cancer.htm
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 14, 2010, 03:21:01 AM
Hi  I agree that God should help the poor and the starving, just humour me for a minute, I know you dont believe in the Bible its a book of fairy tales, but just for one second say in Genesis where God said that man was to have dominion over the earth, they were supposed  to cultivate the land and be responsible for the earths resources, what if they listened to the fairy tales in the Bible and helped the poor, starving and needy.  People who have billions of dollars and who dont even know what to do with their billions, say they decided to help those poor people.  Instead of being more and more greedy they would go to these starving nations and make programmes possible with their billions and billions of dollars that they use for things like war and killing and instead planted fields and made irrigation possible so these people could eat, a God given idea, the Bible the fairy tale book asks us to help the poor,
istead ofmore castles, more boats, more luxuries, these billionaires help the starving that would be like "heaven on earth" im not sure if youll agree


kind regards laura 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 14, 2010, 03:42:43 AM
istead ofmore castles, more boats, more luxuries, these billionaires help the starving that would be like "heaven on earth" im not sure if youll agree

And so God stands by watching the starving and the suffering ... waiting and watching and waiting for the selfish and the greedy to wake up to His own glorious word, to change themselves, to turn their backs on Satan, to do something that is obviously right and loving  ...  but that He the Almighty can fix in the blink of an eye  &)

Do you realise you are saying God is using victims of suffering to teach a lesson and reach out to those who don't suffer?  :'(

Please spare us this nonsense Laura.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 14, 2010, 04:02:21 AM
Ok Laura... you are at least going in the right direction by assigning some responsability to humanity to find solutions to poverty. Your idea is oversimplified but it's well intended.

But why should we assign ourselves the collective responsability of eliminating poverty? Obviously because if WE don't nobody else will.

This is exactly what you would expect us to do if there is no god.

If there were a god, what a sadistic prick he would be! Watching babies suffer, watching priests rape children, watching women get stoned to death, etc ... and him sitting by just filing his nails.

That's why we have laws, charities, climate change committees... etc.

We are alone and we need to deal with our harsh reality.


Also Laura, you brought up Genesis... can you please acknowledge the Exodus verses I mentioned earlier where owning, beating and raping slaves is said to be OK?

You don't get to ignore the immoral bible bits and then make reference to genesis for goodness sake.  &)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: hickdive on December 14, 2010, 04:31:25 AM
I think you're gradually getting there Laura, at least you're no longer dispensing friendship and love in such an uncaring manner  ;)

Altruism of the kind you describe does not require any religious basis, there are many secular charities and the richest man in the World, Bill Gates, is definitely doing as you suggest. Can you guess his religion?

But it doesn't require billionaires to do good. A billion people giving a dollar is the same as one person giving a billion. Why not give to charity, either in cash or kind or time, just because it is the right thing to do?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 14, 2010, 06:22:32 AM
BM
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 14, 2010, 07:59:43 AM
hi

in my understanding from my findings etc is that people are supposed to speak and act on behalf of God.  He gave his Holy Spirit to empower us to live the way He wanted us to live, with giving, sharing, loving, caring, kindness, love, patience, now dont all attack me at once, im not the enemy here, i just make friends easily and have discussions with people from all walks of life with all kinds of beliefs cause i dont want to live in a box and be blind to whats going on.  I know you say well the old testament killings, I didnt live back then, but in theory if people lived as abovementioned, we cared and loved and were giving and kind this world would be a better place by far.

kind regards

laura     
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 14, 2010, 08:30:02 AM
You're going around in circles and you are not addressing any of the points I have made to you.

We don't need god, the holy spirit or any of that fairytale nonsense to be giving, sharing, loving, caring, kind, and patient.

I've already told you that the old testament was written by primitive men from the late bronze age middle east. That explains why there are killings, blood sacrifices, creation myths, slavery, oppression of women and children, torture, rape, etc...

Civilization has evolved in the past approx. 3500 years since it was written. Morality has evolved. There is no god in this equation.

If everyone was giving, sharing, loving, caring, kind, and patient of course the world would be a better place. So what? That has nothing to do with the existence of a god. We don't get our morals from a god. We don't need 'divine inspiration' to be all those things.

I am an atheist. I am not enlightened by some imaginary holy spirit. Yet I have never raped, ensalved or murdered anyone. I give 5% of all my wages to charity... that's more than I pay for council tax... that's the equivalent of one week's worth of groceries for a family of 3. I have volunteered, I have helped raise money for charity and I am deeply saddened by the suffering in this world.

What you are describing is the equivalent of me giving my children an instruction book they can't understand and then leaving them on a deserted island to fend for themselves. There's CCTV all over the island and I can see them all the time, but I don't intervene. In fact, they never even met me or have any proof that I exist.

One of the kids falls and breaks a leg... he is a pain, agony, he doesn't know what to do... he may die... he screams for his daddy to please help ... and all I do is sit back and watch this happening on my screen, without intervening... and on top of that, I blame him for his own pain! His brother looks at him and blames the others brothers and sisters around him for his pain. Blame everyone except the father who irresponsibly put them in that situation in the first place!

They may as well not even have a father since I'm not doing anything anyway!

Well this is what your god character is like.

He either doesn't exist (which he doesn't) or he is a giant sadistic prick.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Operator_020 on December 14, 2010, 10:00:14 AM
Hi laura1

I have a question or two for you.  You said:

in my understanding from my findings etc is that people are supposed to speak and act on behalf of God.  He gave his Holy Spirit to empower us to live the way He wanted us to live...

How can you tell whom is speaking on behalf of god?  Many people have claimed to speak for god, and many times they contradict each other.  So how do you differentiate the imposters from the genuine article?  How can we tell who has the holy spirit?

020
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Aaron123 on December 14, 2010, 10:18:51 AM
in my understanding from my findings etc is that people are supposed to speak and act on behalf of God.  He gave his Holy Spirit to empower us to live the way He wanted us to live, with giving, sharing, loving, caring, kindness, love, patience   

Laura1, please read the bible before you make such a statement again.  Read the entire book before you come back and say that god is all about love and kindness.  Many of us have read the entire bible.  The bible is the very reason why we do not believe.

You appear to be at least somewhat familar with genesis and exodus, so you might want to start with leviticus.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+1&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+1&version=NIV)

Start here, and don't stop until you reach the end of revelation.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 14, 2010, 10:25:00 AM
She seems to have a self-imposed blind spot for the nasty parts of the bible. She has completely ignored my request for her to acknowledge that the bible promotes the owning slaves, beating them and raping them and instead continues to speak of god as a source of all the goody goody things.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: naemhni on December 14, 2010, 10:32:41 AM
You appear to be at least somewhat familar with genesis and exodus, so you might want to start with leviticus.

Agreed completely.  Leviticus sets a wide variety of rules about stuff that most of us today would consider petty or even ridiculous, such as wearing clothes made from two different fibers, and it prescribes the death penalty for almost all transgressions listed.  (If we actually followed the laws given in Leviticus, the human race would probably be completely extinct in just a few years.)  This is not even remotely indicative of a being that wants us "to live, with giving, sharing, loving, caring, kindness, love, patience".

I think it was Screwtape who commented recently that he was a Christian up until he actually read the bible.  He said he was horrified by what he saw there, and it deconverted him.  I'd hazard a guess that Leviticus, in particular, was probably a big part of the reason (although I'm not trying to speak for him, of course).
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 14, 2010, 10:33:36 AM
People who have billions of dollars and who dont even know what to do with their billions, say they decided to help those poor people.  Instead of being more and more greedy they would go to these starving nations and make programmes possible with their billions and billions of dollars that they use for things like war and killing and instead planted fields and made irrigation possible so these people could eat, a God given idea, the Bible the fairy tale book asks us to help the poor,

I think it's worth pointing out here that most billionaires spend an incredible amount of money on different charitable donations, some even creating their own charities.  I can't think of a single billionaire who uses his money for "things like war and killing" with the exception of a few dictators, who are the extreme minority.  It seems like you're basing your entire point here on a ridiculous stereotype. 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: screwtape on December 14, 2010, 12:56:07 PM
I think it was Screwtape who commented recently that he was a Christian up until he actually read the bible.  He said he was horrified by what he saw there, and it deconverted him.  I'd hazard a guess that Leviticus, in particular, was probably a big part of the reason (although I'm not trying to speak for him, of course).

Yep.  I was a faltering Roman Catholic.  I could only justify my godbelief with the bible.  Leviticus was awful, but my delusion was broken early in Genesis.  The exact verse that ended it for me was Genesis 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6:4&version=NIV)
Quote
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
It was clearly primitive polytheism, even less sensible than Greek Mythology.  That pulled the rug out from under any faith I had left.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Brakeman on December 14, 2010, 02:18:21 PM
People who have billions of dollars and who don't even know what to do with their billions, say they decided to help those poor people.  Instead of being more and more greedy they would go to these starving nations and make programmes possible with their billions and billions of dollars that they use for things like war and killing and instead planted fields and made irrigation possible so these people could eat, a God given idea, the Bible the fairy tale book asks us to help the poor,

Laura1, The bible tells us to give to the poor. It sounds sensible, but if one presupposes that god is perfectly wise, it is quickly seen that giving handouts causes a parasitic dependability that is not healthy for the poor. It is much better to be charitable constructively through economic job creation than giving food handouts. If you allow a beggar to subsist on handouts, then that is what he will do, to his own detriment.

In Game theory class in college we studied the billionaire's political dilemma. Basically it goes like this. Suppose a Billionaire wanted to help Flint Michigan by creating new infrastructure and jobs. So he decides that it needs a new technology center that would cost 10 billion and employ 10 thousand locals. To get it funded he decides not to use his own money, he first goes to the state capital and offers 2 billion dollars to whichever political party will produce the most votes for the proposition in the event that the proposal looses. The proposition is that the land costs and taxes for the center will be paid for by the state. He then Goes likewise to the US Capital and makes a similar offer for construction and operating costs from the federal government. As neither party could afford not to play, the propositions would pass in both places and the billionaires good deed would cost him nothing.

So in effect, just putting his 2 billion dollars at risk, could help the poor in Flint Michigan more than if the man gave them the money directly.

Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 17, 2010, 03:46:03 AM
Laura1, The bible tells us to give to the poor. It sounds sensible, but if one presupposes that god is perfectly wise, it is quickly seen that giving handouts causes a parasitic dependability that is not healthy for the poor. It is much better to be charitable constructively through economic job creation than giving food handouts. If you allow a beggar to subsist on handouts, then that is what he will do, to his own detriment.

Hi

 just a thought on now it is not wise to give to poor cause they become dependant on handouts, there are programmes available and opportunities then for these people who live in poverty to get involved in to improve their life. Many a poor underprivleged person has risen above their circumstances with a bit of determination and effort, the original point made was why doesnt God if he exists take all suffering away in the blink of an eye with a magic wand, however another possiblity besides the magic wand taking all suffering away is the great many stories of people who have risen above their cicumstances the rags to riches stories, however im sure you would not give "god" any credit for having had any hand in any good news story as it would be seen as just humans using their skills and not God reaching down to assist in any way im sure thats how youll see it.

As to the desperate questions of the cruel God of the old testament that has lead many away from God, today we have a new covenant with God, in another part of the Bible new testament, reference is made back to these very happenings in the old testament, a better new covenant was created by God Hebrews 9:11 - (Im not preaching but attempting to answer a question most posed to me) Christ being a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, not of this building, neither by the blood of goats and calves entered in once into the Holy place having obtained redemption for us.  But then I let you decide as Christ is also an imaginery figure to some, so nothing will make sense if Christ is also just imaginary. 

kind regards  laura     
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Aaron123 on December 17, 2010, 09:42:24 AM
just a thought on now it is not wise to give to poor cause they become dependant on handouts, there are programmes available and opportunities then for these people who live in poverty to get involved in to improve their life. Many a poor underprivleged person has risen above their circumstances with a bit of determination and effort, the original point made was why doesnt God if he exists take all suffering away in the blink of an eye with a magic wand, however another possiblity besides the magic wand taking all suffering away is the great many stories of people who have risen above their cicumstances the rags to riches stories, however im sure you would not give "god" any credit for having had any hand in any good news story as it would be seen as just humans using their skills and not God reaching down to assist in any way im sure thats how youll see it.

Honestly, this isn't much of a defense for god or for christianity.  You gave a couple of examples of people doing things, and gave no indication of how god is suppose to have anything to do with them.  This would be better if you could tell us how we know when someone goes from rags to riches on his own VS someone going from rags to riches with the help of god.  Saying "god helped me" is not a good answer because anyone can make that statement.  You'd also need to tell us how this would be compatable with what Jesus said about being rich. (give up EVERYTHING you have, and then you can follow him)[1]




Quote
As to the desperate questions of the cruel God of the old testament that has lead many away from God, today we have a new covenant with God, in another part of the Bible new testament, reference is made back to these very happenings in the old testament, a better new covenant was created by God Hebrews 9:11 - (Im not preaching but attempting to answer a question most posed to me) Christ being a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, not of this building, neither by the blood of goats and calves entered in once into the Holy place having obtained redemption for us.  But then I let you decide as Christ is also an imaginery figure to some, so nothing will make sense if Christ is also just imaginary. 

 
Again, poor defense.  Actually, it's not a defense at all.  This is just side-stepping the issue.  Even if we accept that god made a new covenant, and this wiped the slate clean, this still doesn't address the cruel behavior of god during the old testament period.  Beside which, the bible doesn't accept the idea of god writing off his laws and wipping the slate clean.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. (if the law is perfect, then there would be no need to fix or change things)

Matthew 5:17-20(Jesus speaking)
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


 1. Mark 10:17-29
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: screwtape on December 17, 2010, 12:03:25 PM
just a thought on now it is not wise to give to poor cause they become dependant on handouts, there are programmes available and opportunities then for these people who live in poverty to get involved in to improve their life.

yeah.  jesus H was totally against charity.  I'm pretty sure jesus H said something like "do not give to the poor, lest the lazy swine become dependent on handouts."   Oh, wait, that's not what he said.  He said the exact opposite.

That sort of defines the poor, doesn't it?  Dependent on a handout.  Who should get the handouts though?  People who are not dependent on them?  Why would you give a hand out to someone who did not need it? 

What you are saying is people are like pigeons or squirrels.  If you feed them, they will flock to you.  Do you think poor people like depending on others to feed their kids?  Do you think they like wearing second hand clothes? 

You think you are advocating some kind of tough love, but you are not.  You are just buying into a conservative myth that is just as useless and ineffective as a conservative myth that abstinence only sex education discourages kids from having sex.  jesus H would not approve.

 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: William on December 17, 2010, 04:02:39 PM
...however im sure you would not give "god" any credit for having had any hand in any good news story as it would be seen as just humans using their skills and not God reaching down to assist in any way im sure thats how youll see it...

Laura this is pure excusiology - or in more precise language, utter bullshit!  :police:

How difficult would it be for almighty God to put His own brand on good works/good news stories that alleviate suffering and poverty?  If God could actually do something material to help people - eg give them jobs, or stable weather, or plants that grow in the desert or whatever - He could also actually do something to stamp His brand on those deeds. There are any number of public relations techniques to associate brands with things and events ... just a few quick ideas He could use to get modern media attention:

I could go on ... but I think you get the picture.  For a Guy who is worthy of worship, everything imaginable that He could easily do to make himself unambiguously known, He does not!  Why?  :?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: sammylama on December 17, 2010, 05:41:51 PM

yeah.  jesus H was totally against charity.  I'm pretty sure jesus H said something like "do not give to the poor, lest the lazy swine become dependent on handouts."   Oh, wait, that's not what he said.  He said the exact opposite.


Or, at least that's how the legend/myth of "Jesus" goes...      ;)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Odin on December 17, 2010, 07:53:13 PM
...today we have a new covenant with God, in another part of the Bible new testament, reference is made back to these very happenings in the old testament, a better new covenant was created by God Hebrews 9:11

Laura1,

You might be interested in my favorite Bible verse.  It's 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

You sound like a child.

For me, Odin, putting away childish things meant no longer believing in ghosts, including the
father, son and holy ghost.

Odin, King of the Gods
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 20, 2010, 01:20:09 AM
hi

Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves? Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.  Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.  Did God create acid rain which kills the plants, did God create pollution, did God create water pollution, is God killing the animals off with potching, does God take a gun in his hand and shoot people, did God create the atomic bomb, did God create drugs?  something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet, you ask why does God not stop this, he didnt create man as a robot, yes sir no sir anything you say sir,

kind regards laura 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Aaron123 on December 20, 2010, 01:46:20 AM
Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves? Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.  Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.  Did God create acid rain which kills the plants, did God create pollution, did God create water pollution, is God killing the animals off with potching, does God take a gun in his hand and shoot people, did God create the atomic bomb, did God create drugs? 

Why are you asking this question on an atheist board?  You already know that we don't think your god exists, or that any gods exists.  So why this series of rhetorical questions?  :?


Quote
you ask why does God not stop this, he didnt create man as a robot, yes sir no sir anything you say sir,

This makes no sense as a answer to the above questions.  How would preventing acid rain destroy free will?  How does stopping pollution, poaching, guns, drugs, and atomic bombs turn people into robots?  Your answer just does not make any sense whatsoever. 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Bereft_of_Faith on December 20, 2010, 02:53:59 AM
hi

Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves? Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.  Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.   [snipped]

I have to interject here.  The image of perfect balance you cite is due to your perspective living in an interglacial period.  There have been mass extinctions, fire ball earth, snow ball earth, asteroid or comet strikes.  Mankind had survived the last ice age.  Ice ages have proven to be cyclical.  We may be due for another one. 

This balance you see is analogous to someone living in Smalltown USA, and claiming that there is no starvation or war in the world.  But you see TV and movies, and know that that's not true.  You need to learn about the Earth's tumultuous past. 

There are several good TV programs that are both easy and fun to watch, that clearly outline what our planet has been through.  I believe Planet Earth was one of them.  There have been others as well.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 20, 2010, 09:11:22 AM
Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves?

No, because he doesn't exist.  I don't blame the Fairy of Breaking Stuff when my stuff breaks, so why would I blame an equally imaginary figure when things don't work out on a larger scale?

Quote
Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.


I wouldn't say we've "destroyed the planet".  Sure, things are different than they were a few centuries ago, but saying we've "destroyed" it all is quite a stretch. 

Quote
Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.
 

I don't think you know much about the ecosystem; there's nothing close to a "perfect balance".  It's all quite hectic, and from what we know, it always has been.

Quote
there is definiteDid God create acid rain which kills the plants, did God create pollution, did God create water pollution, is God killing the animals off with potching, does God take a gun in his hand and shoot people, did God create the atomic bomb, did God create drugs?

Well, if god existed in the way Christians claim he does, then...  Yeah.  All of those things are a part of his plan. 

Quote
    something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet, you ask why does God not stop this, he didnt create man as a robot, yes sir no sir anything you say sir,

I don't see how that works with what you said in the quote prior to this one.  If I don't allow my kid access to knives for his safety, am I making him a robot?  If I explain the way the world works and give him advice on how to best maintain it, am I making him a robot? 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 20, 2010, 09:19:25 AM
did God create drugs?
Opium. Cocaine. Cannabis. ALCOHOL. Nicotine. Psilocybin. To name but a few.

Yes. God, if he were real, did create drugs.

Quote
something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet,
So, how does this comment bear on your last question?

Hmm. &)


Laura, I command you, in the name of my underpants, WAKE UP!
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Hatter23 on December 20, 2010, 10:46:08 AM
did God create drugs?
Opium. Cocaine. Cannabis. ALCOHOL. Nicotine. Psilocybin. To name but a few.

Yes. God, if he were real, did create drugs.

Quote
something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet,
So, how does this comment bear on your last question?

Hmm. &)


Laura, I command you, in the name of my underpants, WAKE UP!

But isn't beer a sign God loves us and wants us to be happy?  ;)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 20, 2010, 12:03:19 PM
But isn't beer a sign God loves us and wants us to be happy?  ;)

Beer harms you despite making you feel good.  It's more a sign that God is an epic prankster
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 20, 2010, 12:06:14 PM
Quote from: modbreak
tsk tsk.

Nothing to add. I just wanted to join in on the quote-nesting.  &)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Hatter23 on December 20, 2010, 03:35:04 PM
hi

Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves?

If there were the a god that created everything, was omnipotent, and knew what the outcome of each and every thing he set up in the first place; then yes. Is a parent that hands a 10 year old the keys to the car and a bottle of Jack responsible for the accident that child will get into? Yes. Because it is likely to happen. It is so much worse for said hypothetical god, because he knows it will happen.

Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 20, 2010, 06:16:58 PM
Is a parent that hands a 10 year old the keys to the car and a bottle of Jack responsible for the accident that child will get into? Yes. Because it is likely to happen.
Excellent point. The law would also demand that the parents face some form of punishment / child-neglect charges.

I suppose, if the lawmaker, judge, jury and executioner just happened to be the parents then the law could easily be il-applied. Of course, that'd be corruption.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 21, 2010, 06:51:12 AM
Hi

about the drugs and alcohol thing Ive never picked drugs off trees and drank from a alcholic dam, what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

kind regards laura   
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 21, 2010, 06:56:11 AM
Sorry, Laura. That's not true.

Alcohol (which Jesus himself drank) is naturally occuring, and also man-made. The other drugs I listed are all totally naturally occuring psychoactive drugs, too.

All of those naturally occuring drugs do harm in varying degrees.

I think you should revisit your earlier claim and retract it.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 21, 2010, 06:57:12 AM
Laura, you don't think there are any naturally occurring 'drugs'? There are various types of hallucinogenic fungi (mushrooms) that, eaten in their perfectly natural state, will get you super stoned.

If your god exists he created those didn't he?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 21, 2010, 08:14:32 AM
Laura PM'ed me her response to the above post. Really, it should be in the thread so I'll put it here:

Quote from: Laura1
Hi plethora, have you tried the mushrooms yourself, what happened when you tried them?
Quote from: Plethora
Hi Laura,
 
I think this was better asked within the thread at the forum.
 
I have never actually tried those mushrooms myself... but that's irrelevant. My point is, if there is an omnigod he is responsible for everything he created... including the things his creation creates. After all, he already knew what was going to happen anyway.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: voodoo child on December 21, 2010, 08:23:24 AM
Poppies, mushrooms, cannabis, literally thousands of plants on this planet will get you high, or even kill you. During Jesus time, wine was prepared in led buckets.

More than likely the men who wrote the bible, were unaware and ripped daily on opium tea, opium smoke, and led laced wine .

I wonder what type of hallucinations these great writers of the bible might be experiencing?   :o
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Gordon Freeman on December 21, 2010, 08:28:35 AM
Laura, you don't think there are any naturally occurring 'drugs'? There are various types of hallucinogenic fungi (mushrooms) that, eaten in their perfectly natural state, will get you super stoned.

If your god exists he created those didn't he?

No, these got corrupted after the fall.  8) No, no, I am kidding. I just said that because there are believers who claim that. (-:
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Anfauglir on December 21, 2010, 08:29:38 AM
Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves?

Where does "character" come from - for want of a better word?

An egg is fertilised, and the first stages of what will be a new being begins to grow.  I'm presuming that you will say it has a "soul", put there by god at some stage.   

Does god imbue that soul with a particular character?

If yes....then quite clearly god IS to blame for everything that being does, since it was made to think, to act, to be in a particular way, with a particular character - be it good, jealous, happy, vindictive, whatever.

If not....if that being, that soul, arrives in the world as a completely blank slate (which, incidentally, is contradicted by the Bible), then where does its character come from?  Answer is, it HAS to come from the environment it is raised in, the parents, the friends, the society.  With a truly blank initial soul, that is the only way character could develop.

But if character comes from the people it interacts with, then where did THEIR character come from?  From the people THEY interacted with...and so on, and so on back (if you believe the Bible) to the garden of Eden....where the two completely blank souls were influenced and developed according to the creatures they interacted with.  In other words, by god himself, and the other creatures that god deliberately created and placed there with them.  And so, again, god is to blame, for setting in motion the chain of events that led to the way things are today.

So to answer your question....YES.  If a creator god exists, then it IS responsible for everything that happens in the world - either by setting up a poorly thought-out initial set of circumstances, or (more supported Biblically) by instilling particular traits in the "soul" while still in the womb, and hence by determining before the first breath whether a person is a "good guy" or not.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: hickdive on December 21, 2010, 08:49:59 AM
what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

kind regards laura   

And what about the alcohol in this story?

http://www.ainglkiss.com/stories/water.htm (http://www.ainglkiss.com/stories/water.htm)
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Hatter23 on December 21, 2010, 08:52:46 AM
Poppies, mushrooms, cannabis, literally thousands of plants on this planet will get you high, or even kill you. During Jesus time, wine was prepared in led buckets.

More than likely the men who wrote the bible, were unaware and ripped daily on opium tea, opium smoke, and led laced wine .

I wonder what type of hallucinations these great writers of the bible might be experiencing?   :o

From what I've heard, and therefore I am unsure of, that the caves in the area that Revelations was written have edible pychadelic moss.

Title: Re: I believe
Post by: naemhni on December 21, 2010, 08:56:24 AM
From what I've heard, and therefore I am unsure of, that the caves in the area that Revelations was written have edible pychadelic moss.

Yes, that definitely would explain a lot if it's true...
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Operator_020 on December 21, 2010, 09:04:54 AM
Hi laura

what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

Maybe this will help give you some perspective:

African Animals Getting Drunk From Ripe Marula Fruit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5E5TjkDvU0#ws)

Alcohol is produced naturally in fruit.  These animals get drunk, and apparently enjoy it, from eating older fruit with high alcohol content.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: plethora on December 21, 2010, 09:15:06 AM
Awesome post 020 ... that kills the argument about drugs not occurring naturally without human intervention.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Gordon Freeman on December 21, 2010, 09:19:04 AM
Hi laura

what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

Maybe this will help give you some perspective:

African Animals Getting Drunk From Ripe Marula Fruit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5E5TjkDvU0#ws)

Alcohol is produced naturally in fruit.  These animals get drunk, and apparently enjoy it, from eating older fruit with high alcohol content.

Animals are beautiful people! It brings memories!  :D It's been a while. Thank you for this scene, you reminded me of some great moments and also provided a good point.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 22, 2010, 03:13:56 AM
Hi friends,


just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?


kind regards

laura
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Gordon Freeman on December 22, 2010, 03:38:22 AM
Hi friends,


just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?

Ditto, no god to blame, for he doesn't exist. No conflict for atheists. We use that argument when you claim that your god is good, and by following this logic, we point out that, IF your god exists, he is about to be blamed for such a world.
But if god doesn't exists who to blame, you ask. Why would you blame anyone? Why would you blame anyone for the fact that death exists? Or anything else in the world. No blame necessary. It's just the way it is. No blame unless humans are involved.

Why is there a need to blame or thank anyone? Why the fact that we don't like some things in nature or universe needs to lead to blame of someone? Why should I blame anyone that Sahara is a desert but not a jungle? Why would I blame anyone that it needs to be cold to snow? "I want to have a snow without needing to freeze myself! I blame you... someone!" How pointless is that? It's just the way it is.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Anfauglir on December 22, 2010, 03:54:51 AM
...if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?

Sorry, but I'm not going to answer this question yet - you've received a lot of posts (including one of mine) detailing how IF god does exist, the "mess" is clearly his fault, which you've not yet bothered to answer.  I see no reason why I should waste time carefully putting together yet another post that you are just going to ignore.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 22, 2010, 06:21:00 AM
Sorry, Laura. That's not true.

Alcohol (which Jesus himself drank) is naturally occuring, and also man-made. The other drugs I listed are all totally naturally occuring psychoactive drugs, too.

All of those naturally occuring drugs do harm in varying degrees.

I think you should revisit your earlier claim and retract it.


Laura,

Rather than send me an email that dodges the issue, can you please answer this post in the thread. If not, I'm afraid i'll have to report you for stonewalling.


Thanks.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: laura1 on December 22, 2010, 07:01:40 AM
hi

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic, but that im sure wont be a good answer to you guys, as for the drugs issue and the drunk animals etc I dont have all the answers, but the one post mentioned if there is no god we dont have to blame anything or anyone for anything, but the posts i received so far were quick to blame god if he does exist for everything thatsgone wrong, now if theres no god noyone needs to be blamed? doesnt make sense, humans get let off the hook then

kind regards laura 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Anfauglir on December 22, 2010, 07:29:53 AM
....the posts i received so far were quick to blame god if he does exist for everything thatsgone wrong, now if theres no god noyone needs to be blamed? doesnt make sense, humans get let off the hook then

Still waiting for you to address my post.  You believe in god, I have shown you how everything IS god's fault.  Do you intend to respond to that at all?

Humans let off the hook?  Hardly.  But there are two vital and important differences.

Firstly, "humans" are blessed with neither limitless power, nor the ability to see the future - traits commonly assumed that god has.  While we could therefore say that the state of the world today arises as a result of prvious human actions, we cannot blame humans in the same way we could blame god, because humans do not have the foresight to be able to say (for example) that the man who first said "wow...fermenting these grapes leads to a nice taste and a pleasant buzz" is therefore directly to BLAME for every alcohol related fatality, assault, or other crime.  A god with omniscience, however, would know that creating alcohol would lead to those terrible things - and so CAN be blamed for going ahead and creating it.

Second important difference, which again returns to the power and knowledge of god, but also to its eternal-ness (there's a better word that escapes me at the moment).  Here I am - and here you are - living what we believe are good and useful lives.  Neither one of us is responsible for the billions of tons of pollution in the world, neither of us are responsible for the droughts in Africa, neither of us are responsible for the gang killings in LA.  Yes - we MAY be slightly and partially responsible for a little bit of pollution, a little bit of child labour in the Phillipines....if we do not pay quite enough attention.  And so, no one individual carries any weight of responsibility or blame in the same way that an all-powerful god must.

And equally, like I said, we try to live good and useful lives.  For my part, I'm a full-time Union Rep and a school governor - so my entire working life and a good proportion of my personal time is spend trying to undo messes, or prevent them in the first place.  So before you tar me (and yourself) with responsibility and blame for "the mess the world is in", take a step back and consider just exactly what you are saying.  Individuals can be to blame, in greater or lesser degree, for problems.  But you can not blanket say "humans" are responsible for all messes.

THAT is why "humans" don't get held to the same level of responsibility as an all-powerful and all-knowing deity.

Now....is there any chance you will actually show some honesty and address some of these points?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Hatter23 on December 22, 2010, 08:51:41 AM
THAT is why "humans" don't get held to the same level of responsibility as an all-powerful and all-knowing deity.

Now....is there any chance you will actually show some honesty and address some of these points?

Exactly, and well said.

That's what gets me when a theist tries to flip the free will argument; Mankind is neither all powerful it cannot change the laws of physics. Nor cannot know the outcome of all its decisions. Furthermore there are problems caused systemicly the only very weathy and powerful individual could change, but are unlikely to do so because those systems help to keep them wealthy and powerful.

This "God" character has no such excuses. In fact, with complete power, no threats to that power, and complete foresight...no reasonable excuses can possibly exist.

 
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Operator_020 on December 22, 2010, 10:00:11 AM
Hi laura

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic,

It probably was alcoholic, but probably not as strong as the wine we have today.  In the first century they did not have water treatment plants to ensure their drinking water was clean, so the often avoided drinking water.  Instead, they drank beverages that were slightly alcoholic.  The alcohol killed the dangerous bacteria.  This was a common practice even through the Medieval age.

as for the drugs issue and the drunk animals etc I dont have all the answers,

You do not have to have all the answers, but those facts should make you reconsider your position. They should lead you to think about what you believe and why and perhaps come to some different conclusions. That is not to say you should stop believing in a god.  But your perspective should change a little bit, don't you think?

happy posting
020
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Hatter23 on December 22, 2010, 11:39:49 AM
Hi laura

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic,

It probably was alcoholic, but probably not as strong as the wine we have today.  In the first century they did not have water treatment plants to ensure their drinking water was clean, so the often avoided drinking water.  Instead, they drank beverages that were slightly alcoholic.  The alcohol killed the dangerous bacteria.  This was a common practice even through the Medieval age.


Actually it was true as late as the 1850s. Beer was touted as a "healthier Beverage" because of the unknown microorganisms that plauged mosty city water supplies, and beer drinkers didn't get as sick as much as those who drank said tainted water.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: sammylama on December 22, 2010, 12:13:17 PM

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic...


Is this what you really meanI heard this from someone that I thought had knowledge on the subject.  He/she made a convincing argument and gave me an answer that took away the cognitive dissonance that I experienced when I thought about the notion of "my lord" drinking alcohol.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: sammylama on December 22, 2010, 12:29:36 PM
just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?

Whatever perceived "mess" there is in the world could, would and should be placed squarely upon the shoulders of humanity itself.  Obviously. 

Who can you take your complaints to?  How about no one.  How about you keep them to yourself and put the energy toward finding a solution?  A real life, down to earth human solution. 



edit: spelling
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: hickdive on December 22, 2010, 12:55:25 PM
hi

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic, but that im sure wont be a good answer to you guys,

You're right, it isn't a good answer. Ancient wine appears to have been perfectly strong enought to make you drunk, for example; Genesis 9:20-21.

Do you have any evidence, beyond mere assertion, that 'wine' refers to anything other than fermented grape juice? For example, we call fermented grape juice 'wine' and unfermented grape juice, well, 'grape juice'. So in the language of the bible 'wine' means either? Except when we read of Noah drinking himself into unconsciousness?

When you buy grape juice, if it hasn't been given UHT, which aisle is it in in the supermarket? Even if you do buy UHT grape juice, what do you have to do to keep it fresh once opened?

Title: Re: I believe
Post by: Agga on December 23, 2010, 11:14:33 AM
Hi laura1,

Don't forget that you have some dificult errors to correct in your earlier posts.

Being truthful and honest is a virtue.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: AmyLyn999 on December 23, 2010, 12:48:58 PM
just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?
Hi Laura,
Why blame God?  Why blame anyone, for that matter? 

Does blame really accomplish anything?  I don't think it does.  All blame does is put the responsibility for fixing *insert problem* into someone else's hands so you don't have to deal with it yourself. 

Take your complaints to yourself and find solutions so you can help change the "mess" in the world in your own sphere of influence.  No single person can completely change the world, but you can do your part in promoting change.


Also, I think that most religious people(not saying you in particular, it's just a thought I'm having) are religious because they just can't accept that the world is a messed up place.  They don't want to accept that shit just happens with absolutely no reason behind it. 

But unfortunately that's reality, and for me personally... accepting and dealing with reality is much easier than trying to rationalize it and try to make sense out of it by believing in God.
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: screwtape on December 24, 2010, 11:03:29 AM
laura

I'd like to know your response to mod 020's point here:

You do not have to have all the answers, but those facts should make you reconsider your position. They should lead you to think about what you believe and why and perhaps come to some different conclusions. That is not to say you should stop believing in a god.  But your perspective should change a little bit, don't you think?
Title: Re: I believe
Post by: HAL on March 21, 2012, 02:18:45 PM
This topic is over 2 years old, it's considered bad practice to resurrect topics this old.