whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: peace on December 02, 2010, 03:12:24 AM

Title: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: peace on December 02, 2010, 03:12:24 AM
I am a Christian. I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions. I have come to this forum in peace believing that all intelligent people can discuss anything peacefully because of their intellectual ability to review information presented to them and consider it. I am offering my opinion for your consideration. It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary. The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation. I think we focus on the more obvious distinctions of race, sex, age, height, and also things defined as physical abilities and disabilities to our own detriment. As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images. I think we live in a world(dominated by mass media) that focuses on very obvious things like what body type we may have, what car we may drive etc. But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like. I have no intention to minimize anyone's physical or life circumstances in any way. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.

Peace
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on December 02, 2010, 06:53:51 AM
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It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

Could you flesh this out a bit for me? How is it that my cousin, having lost 4 fingers in an accident, is in a state of existence that is not broken in any way?



ADDED: BTW, welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 02, 2010, 07:24:44 AM
I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God.

Which god?

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So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.


We would prefer evidence of a god rather than a confession of personal imaginations.

Welcome to the forums!

Two drink minimum. . . .

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on December 02, 2010, 08:17:50 AM
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I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions.

Well, I for one do not wish to have beliefs or ideas that cause me to speak/act in ways that are harmful to myself and others. So, by all means, please DO try to convince or convert me.

This came up recently in a discussion I was having with a relative, and so I wrote this blog. Take a look, to see where I am coming from:

http://believewhatyouwant-yoder.blogspot.com/ (http://believewhatyouwant-yoder.blogspot.com/)

Also, do you believe/understand the great commission to mean to preach the gospel to all the nations? If so, isn't it your Christian duty to convince/convert me? If you think that it means to preach and not worry about convincing/converting, than aren't you really here just to preach? And, if you are here to preach, be advised that this is not allowed in the forum.

However, if you are just curious about atheists, stick around, read through some threads, read the FAQs and rules, and watch the WWGHA videos. Then, you will be better prepared to enter into discussions like the one you started here.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 02, 2010, 10:19:23 AM
Maybe this is just me, but to be perfectly honest, I don't see how this is a response to the question at all.  It seems like a half-intro, half-preach.  But again, maybe it's just me, so I'd appreciate it if you could help me understand a little more.

It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

Could you perhaps elaborate a bit more on what you mean by this?  From my perspective, amputees are the very definition of broken[1]
.   

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The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation. I think we focus on the more obvious distinctions of race, sex, age, height, and also things defined as physical abilities and disabilities to our own detriment. As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images. I think we live in a world(dominated by mass media) that focuses on very obvious things like what body type we may have, what car we may drive etc. But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like. I have no intention to minimize anyone's physical or life circumstances in any way. I believe everyone should be treated equally.


This is a wondeful little thought, but it doesn't exactly tie in with your initial point or assist in addressing the site's question. 

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I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.


We're well aware of the different perspective, but you aren't exactly presenting it.  You haven't provided any reasoning as to why you have a god who is caring, or responsive, or existent. 
 1. Broken –adjective
2. reduced to fragments; fragmented.
3. ruptured; torn; fractured.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 02, 2010, 10:54:49 AM
I am a Christian. I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions. I have come to this forum in peace believing that all intelligent people can discuss anything peacefully because of their intellectual ability to review information presented to them and consider it. I am offering my opinion for your consideration. It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.
wow, amazing. Please go to a VA hospital and tell the folks there that. If this excuse for your god is true, then why does God supposed actually "heal" people, per the claims of miracles of all sorts of illnesses, EXCEPT amputation. And you don't respect anythign at all and yes, we know you are here to convert. Why else would you come here to give excuses for your god? 
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The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation. I think we focus on the more obvious distinctions of race, sex, age, height, and also things defined as physical abilities and disabilities to our own detriment.
and it's not natural to be an amputee.  You want to compare being caucasian with havign your leg blown off.  Just wow.
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As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images.
Yep, we're supposedly created in the image of God. So is God an anencephalic child?  Is God a schizophrenic who harms himself and others? 
Quote
I think we live in a world(dominated by mass media) that focuses on very obvious things like what body type we may have, what car we may drive etc. But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like. I have no intention to minimize anyone's physical or life circumstances in any way. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.
Sorry, "peace" but your god is uncaring and unresponsive since there is no evidence for its existence at all.  You have simply made one more excuse for that.  Basically, it comes down to "please ignore the fact that my god isn't what's is claimed to be and not show me I'm wrong since I'm claiming to be nice and "respectful" to you". 

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: ksm on December 06, 2010, 05:15:09 PM
I am offering my opinion for your consideration. It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

Is someone who has chronic back pain, or cancer in some way broken?

Some Christians claim that their god heals people with cancer or back pain, or migraines, but I wonder why this god never, ever heals any amputees.

Seems curious to me.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on December 06, 2010, 05:45:08 PM
I am a Christian.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions.

Well, I respect your right to have a belief, but I don't have to respect the actual belief, do I?  I mean, even the most awful people in the world are entitled to beliefs, but that doesn't make them worthy of respect. 

Would you be mad if I said I WAS trying to convert you because I feel your belief system might be a cancer to the world? 

It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

STORY TIME! 

When I was in college, we had lots of lab classes.  One of my lab classes had to do with treating amputees.  So, one of our professors decided to bring in a patient that she saw regularly.  We all showed up for lab, not knowing what to expect, but figuring it would be a ho-hum lecture about donning/doffing prosthetic legs.  The man came in and we noticed immediately that he was a bilateral AK (Above the Knee) amputee. We also noticed that his residual stumps were scarred like you wouldn't believe, and not just the end parts, but the rest of the legs too. 

So he starts telling us his story.  He was a Vietnam Vet who was a P.O.W. for 3 years.  He was beaten, tortured and his legs were so hacked to bits that he had to have them taken off when he was finally released.  The torture and amputation left him with unbelievable scarring and also unbelievable amounts of trigger points in his legs and stump ends.  So what was the treatment?  Every week, this man had to have 50+ trigger point injections just to make it from one day to the next without pain that would send you and me to the ER. 

During the lab session, they did some of the trigger point injections.  To say it wasn't pretty is the understatement of the year.  He yelled and screamed every single time the needle went in, but he swore he got a lot of relief after they were done. 

So, do you still think amputees aren't broken? 

The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation.

Explained by evolution. 

As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images.

How so?  I would tend to think if everyone was made to look like one being, then everyone would look pretty much exactly the same.   Since everyone looks a little different, I think that's an argument against you here. 

But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like.

But your religion says that the people who don't believe in your fairy tale are going to spend eternity in hell.  Your thoughts mirror that of atheists, not Christians.  As an atheist, I see no reason to think of any of us as different.  That includes gays, women, etc. 

I believe everyone should be treated equally.

This is very unbiblical.  The God of the OT would laugh at you.

I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.

If God is there, and he has the power to fix that man I spoke about earlier, yet he doesn't do it... how can you honestly say God is caring and responsive?  It's natural to think of someone or something who has the power to fix a problem, yet does not fix it, to be uncaring and unresponsive.  I don't see how you can get around that. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: bgb on December 06, 2010, 05:50:13 PM
Read my signature.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 06, 2010, 07:57:37 PM
If he was a loving god and not an uncaring god,why in the christian mind would he help a Quarterback win the superbowl while watching 4000 children starve to death every hour of every day? 

 Do not tell me that is part of his plan,since you can't speak for something that does not exist!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ashe on December 06, 2010, 09:44:48 PM
Welcome to the forum, peace.

I'm not sure that I understand your argument. Are you saying, in a nutshell, that amputees don't need to be healed because, really, there's nothing wrong with them enough to need healing?

If so, I feel it sort of misses the point of the question. The author was trying to point out that, of all the things God allegedly heals for people, we never see documented healings for problems that can't resolve themselves naturally. People overcome cancer. People overcome depression. People survive horrendous car crashes or accidents. People overcome all sorts of illnesses and ailments that have a chance of resolving themselves by nature. But for some reason, the "impossible" problems are never - not once, in all of humanity, with the billions of people on the planet - miraculously solved.

Why are the "impossible" problems never solved? Never once?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 06, 2010, 09:57:43 PM
Welcome to the forums!

Two drink minimum. . . .

--J.D.

Words can't describe, but I love it!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Historicity on December 06, 2010, 10:36:12 PM
If he was a loving god and not an uncaring god,why in the christian mind would he help a Quarterback win the superbowl while watching 4000 children starve to death every hour of every day? 

The quarterback  had had his sins forgiven and was on TV where his faith could inspire millions.

The 4000 children had laughed at a bald man and deserved it.  Actually they deserved to be eaten by bears.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 07, 2010, 12:03:04 AM
Ok, I'm going to start the betting.  50 bucks says that Peace doesn't come back. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 07, 2010, 04:07:22 AM
I see that 50 bucks and raise the stakes to 200 Quatloos he will never return.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 07, 2010, 08:55:50 AM
400 quatloos! and a green haired chick in silver  ;D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: gadget777 on December 07, 2010, 02:18:05 PM
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on December 07, 2010, 02:26:28 PM
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.

Hi, Gadget, welcome to WWGHA.

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I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

I'm surprised you would need that clarified for you.  An amputee is someone who has had one or more limbs partially or totally removed.  There are online dictionary websites that can help you with this kind of thing in the future.

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According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

And there is no evidence that that actually happened.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on December 07, 2010, 02:34:53 PM
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

An amputee would technically refer to someone who has had the "removal of a body extremity by trauma or surgery".  In regards to the question this site asks, it could really refer to anyone missing a piece or two, including an ear. 

Now as for your Bible verse, I would like you to understand that it's essentially meaningless.  You would need to prove first that Jesus actually existed, prove he actually performed this act, and explain why the healing of an amputee hasn't ocurred since then despite God clearly being willing and able to do so.  Quoting a story that has no evidence backing it and was supposedly written by someone who wasn't even there (but had every reason to lie) proves nothing and makes no relevant point.  Understand that most of us here believe the Bible in its entirety to be fiction, so bringing up anything it says as your sole piece of evidence is a waste of time. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 07, 2010, 03:03:02 PM
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

and if this is true (see above for my forum buddies explanations), why doesn't he do it now? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: gadget777 on December 07, 2010, 03:03:44 PM
Understood, but it seems as though the title of the question implies that there is at least an idea of a God worth questioning.  "Why won't God heal amputees?" Why ask the question if you believe there is no God?  It would be to ask those of the Christian faith why their God is not/cannot/does not/will not do something.

I'm here to say that the "idea of God" that the question implies, actually has healed an amputee according to the Christian Bible.

Think of it this way.  Say there were people alive who believe that Shrek was a real ogre.  I do not believe this, therefore I might ask something like, "Why doesn't Shrek eat all the humans in the movie?" According to the princeton.edu website dictionary, an ogre is "a giant who likes to eat human beings." 

The person who believes in Shrek might say something like "Because he falls in love with one and he is just a nice ogre."  - A fact which is evident if you watch the movie.  Now, is the answer that this person gave actually meaningless? No it is not.  The question merely asked why Shrek didn't eat any humans.  According to the only mention of Shrek, which is in the movies (fake or real) it IS because he is a nice ogre.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 07, 2010, 03:10:01 PM
Understood, but it seems as though the title of the question implies that there is at least an idea of a God worth questioning.  "Why won't God heal amputees?" Why ask the question if you believe there is no God?  It would be to ask those of the Christian faith why their God is not/cannot/does not/will not do something.
It is being asked of those of the Christian faith, (though it applies to all gods claimed to heal).  Atheists know why it doesn't happen.  Christians often don't even thing about it and that's why the question is being asked. To hopefully make them think about the nonsense they claim to beleive in. 

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I'm here to say that the "idea of God" that the question implies, actually has healed an amputee according to the Christian Bible.
No, it really doesn't. 

Quote
Think of it this way.  Say there were people alive who believe that Shrek was a real ogre.  I do not believe this, therefore I might ask something like, "Why doesn't Shrek eat all the humans in the movie?" According to the princeton.edu website dictionary, an ogre is "a giant who likes to eat human beings." 
The person who believes in Shrek might say something like "Because he falls in love with one and he is just a nice ogre."  - A fact which is evident if you watch the movie.  Now, is the answer that this person gave actually meaningless? No it is not.  The question merely asked why Shrek didn't eat any humans.  According to the only mention of Shrek, which is in the movies (fake or real) it IS because he is a nice ogre.
Okay, if I replace Shrek with "God" in your example, do you understand that one doesn't have to also believe in God but only has to question why something that is defined in a certain way, massively fails to do anything to fulfill that definition?  The person who decided to redefine what an ogre is is the same as Christians who want to excuse why their God doesn't do anything. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on December 07, 2010, 03:19:16 PM
Understood, but it seems as though the title of the question implies that there is at least an idea of a God worth questioning.  "Why won't God heal amputees?" Why ask the question if you believe there is no God?

Why ask "Why ask the question?" unless you have not bothered to read beyond the title?

I smite thee!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: GamerGirl on December 07, 2010, 03:48:43 PM
+1 Peace.  ^_^

What about all the amputees who do not accept your point of view though? What of the ones who pray daily asking God for a new limb? It seems unfair to me that God would heal the blind so they can see again or even raise the dead, but not help an amputee regrow a lost limb or a single lost toe even. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: luisveras on December 07, 2010, 04:26:52 PM
It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

The other day I was watching a TV Gameshow episode (something I rarely ever do). The contestant, who didn't seem to have any major problems in her life, was involved in a part of the game that involves a lot of luck. Sure enough, like any good Christian, the person started praying for a good outcome of the "luck" part of the game. The outcome was positive, and the person actually won a 6 figure amount of dollars. That person praised God for "giving" her this money. When asked what she would do with the money, she said "take a second honeymoon with her husband, buy her father a new car, and the rest goes into their retirement savings".

Exactly what argument can anyone use to explain why God found it more useful to give a significant amount of money to someone that didn't really need it, yet negate someone else his or her two hands, impearing his or her ability to work and cover their living expenses? How can anyone consider that an amputee needs no healing?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 07, 2010, 04:28:44 PM
nice post, Luis. welcome to the forums!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on December 07, 2010, 04:47:21 PM
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

Yes many miracles happen in the Bible. Miracles that if they happened today would be proof that magic, including the possibility of divine intervention, was a real force in the world.

Similarly the Quaran has similar claims, as does the Iliad, as does the Books of the Dead, as does the Arthurian Legends, as does Aesop's Fables, and Grimm's Faerie Tales.

However, none of these unambiguous miracles occur in an age where people can check on wether or not they actually happened. Magic seems conspicuously absent in the presence of TV cameras; Divine intervention shies aways from being scientifically tested.

So just because it happened in a book isn't a convincing argument. WWGHA is a shorthand way of asking, since people purport God to do wondrous things even in the here and now and we are to bow are heads in praise for these blessings...why does the unambiguous miracle no longer occur? Specifically, in all the hospitals, in all the world, in the past 100 years, has not one amputee been healed through prayer? Why didn't Manna not fallen from heaven for the Jews starving to death in concentration camps? Why couldn't a Minister raise his hand and calmed the storm before the Tsunami near Sumatra? Why couldn't a priest part the waters in New Orleans during Katrina?

The conclusion is obvious, the stories of magic in the past are made up. Thus we need to treat those stories as unreliable sources of information. If they are unreliable on such tangible this such as 40 years of Wandering in a tiny desert...how much more unreliable are they when claiming things that cannot even be detected, like an afterlife?




Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 07, 2010, 05:27:09 PM
According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

Ever wondered why this does not occur in Lk's source gospel of Mk?  Did Mk sort of . . . forget about it?

What a scatterbrain!

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: GamerGirl on December 07, 2010, 05:33:40 PM
Gadget,

Given today's medical technology, surgeons can reattach severed body parts as long as the reattachment conditions are optimal and adequately met within a certain time frame.  Forgive me if I'm wrong, but according to the bible, Luke was a doctor, right? I studied Latin language in high school and did a research project on surgical procedures during the classical Roman era.  It seems possible that Luke helped the man, and gave Jesus credit for the miracle.  So perhaps, if it even happened, there's a more reasonable explanation behind the smoke and mirrors.  Did anyone ever bother to follow up with this guy whose ear was healed? No.  Not to my knowledge at least.

Or, perhaps the person who wrote that book was a lying sack of crap.  :/
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 07, 2010, 07:04:04 PM
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but according to the bible, Luke was a doctor, right?

No.  First, the author of "Luke-Acts" is unknown.  He is called "Luke" out of convenience.  Second, the author admits to being a non-witness, he uses other sources such as Mk, and is too late and in the wrong language to be reliable.

Since this story does not appear in other "Garden" narratives--including one of his sources--this is another expansion on the basic story most likely by Lk.  Just an "FYI."

Quote
Or, perhaps the person who wrote that book was a lying sack of crap.  :/

DING!Ding!DING!Ding! :D

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 07, 2010, 08:19:02 PM
If the OP is right, then nothing is ever wrong, under any set of circumstances, and we humans should just be happy to be alive as we get swallowed up by the ground in an earthquake or drowned in a tsunami or cooked alive by pissed catholics.

"There is nothing to pray here." should be their motto and those of us not yet lacking in body parts or cancers or bullets in the head are no different than those who are experiencing that natural state of existence and there is no need to differentiate in any way.

Now that I understand the concept "Jesus loves whatever is left of you", I understand the religion better.

This helps.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 08, 2010, 10:32:26 AM
Gadget,

Given today's medical technology, surgeons can reattach severed body parts as long as the reattachment conditions are optimal and adequately met within a certain time frame.  Forgive me if I'm wrong, but according to the bible, Luke was a doctor, right? I studied Latin language in high school and did a research project on surgical procedures during the classical Roman era.  It seems possible that Luke helped the man, and gave Jesus credit for the miracle.  So perhaps, if it even happened, there's a more reasonable explanation behind the smoke and mirrors.  Did anyone ever bother to follow up with this guy whose ear was healed? No.  Not to my knowledge at least.

Or, perhaps the person who wrote that book was a lying sack of crap.  :/

well that's certainly creative  :D  Luke as a "doctor" and knowing how to repair amputations when that was beyond people far into the late 19th and early 20th century? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: GamerGirl on December 08, 2010, 04:35:22 PM
Far-fetched! I know--that's part of the reason why I said the author of Luke was probably a lying sack of crap.  However, it was just an ear, so maybe it was sutured back on and proclaimed as healed, the details, having been written about years after that event, likely have been lost to tales of miracles and mysticism. 

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The earliest reports of surgical suture date back to 3000 BC in ancient Egypt, and the oldest known suture is in a mummy from 1100 BC. The first detailed description of a wound suture and the suture materials used in it is by the Indian sage and physician Sushruta, written in 500 BCE. The Greek "father of medicine" Hippocrates described rudimentary suture techniques, as did the later Roman Aulus Cornelius Celsus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgical_suture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgical_suture)

Quote
Luke is mentioned in Colossians 4:14 as the beloved physician. In 2 Timothy 4:11, Paul is reported as saying, "Luke is with me."
...
On the scholarly view, the Epistles that mentioned Luke were not really written by Paul. Paul did not know anyone called Luke, and we can not say whether Luke was a physician, or even whether there was a person called Luke in the early Church
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_was_Luke_according_to_the_Bible#ixzz17Ye9gSdM (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_was_Luke_according_to_the_Bible#ixzz17Ye9gSdM)

If a rudimentary suture reattachment procedure happened, the ear likely fell off, but the bible never mentions this soldier again. 

Then again, the more reasonable explanation is:

the author was probably full of crap, or was told some fable about Jesus, and the author wrote down that fable as fact. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 07:15:08 PM
I'm not here to try and convince you that God is real (which I believe, meaning I am a Christian) because it's the internet and only a face to face conversation can come close to tackling such questions.

But I would like to provide a holistic view of Christianity and not the biased (media-based) opinion most of you seem to have.

You will most likely say rude mean things, but here it goes anyway.

Everyone sins against God and the wages of sin is death. As soon as the first sin was committed, our world became a sinful place. Anything that seems out of place is because people sin. Why do I deserve to have a good life while an amputee has pain and suffering to live with? The answer is I don't deserve a good life. I have troubles of my own just like everyone does. Can I compare my troubles with an amputees? No, but bad things are all bad. How can I say why some people have seemingly worse lives than others when we all deserve death?

Graciously, God gives us all a choice to believe in Him. In that way, He is just. I know amputees who are Christian and say their lives are great because Jesus has saved their eternal souls. When we are redeemed, we will all be whole again. So God does heal amputees if they believe in Him. It may not be the way you see fit, but God does and I trust his judgment much more than anybody else.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 07:38:20 PM
But I would like to provide a holistic view of Christianity and not the biased (media-based) opinion most of you seem to have.
Interesting statement.  Do you think it's possible that you have a (christian-based) opinion on most of the atheists here?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 07:44:28 PM
But I would like to provide a holistic view of Christianity and not the biased (media-based) opinion most of you seem to have.
Interesting statement.  Do you think it's possible that you have a (christian-based) opinion on most of the atheists here?

Well of course I do because I am a Christian. I did read many posts so I like to think I gained a workable opinion of the atheists in this thread at least. I think atheists have an atheist based opinion of Christian points. I'm not saying that is wrong. I'm saying that I would prefer you would read what I'm saying instead of arguing against media fed opinions of Christianity. And every person is different so all I have to judge how people perceive Christians is from what they say on the thread.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 07:47:38 PM
^^ Are you aware that most of us here were once christians?  What makes you assume that our opinions are media-based, and not experience-based?

And if your own assumptions are christian-based (not, as in our case, experience-based), what makes your arguments any better than ours?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 09, 2010, 07:54:10 PM
. . . only a face to face conversation can come close to tackling such questions.

No.  Evidence is evidence, and you should be able to provide it.  You are correct it is easier to browbeat and cajole people face to face.

Quote
. . . not the biased (media-based) opinion most of you seem to have.

WARNING!!! There are strawmen about!  Be warned of the fire-hazard!

Most of us base it on the texts and resulting traditions.  The fact that the texts are myths--the Earth is not actually flat nor did it end about 1,850 years ago--sort of force us to stick with reality.

Quote
You will most likely say rude mean things, but here it goes anyway.

Argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam: methinks you will consider mere rebuttal "rude."

Quote
Everyone sins against God

No.

Was that it?  FAIL.

Which god by the way?  You should specify.  Different rules, preferences, et cetera.

*Preaches*

Sorry, not evidence.

Quote
Graciously, God gives us all a choice to believe in Him.

Not according to the NT.  In Jn you must be "from the above."  If you are "from the below" you are scrod to use the pluperfect subjunctive.  In Mk, Junior PREVENTS people from being saved.  So not much of a choice there.

Quote
I know amputees who are Christian and say their lives are great because. . . .

I know people who think the coffee maker speaks to them.  I know people who are amputees through no fault of their own recognize that fairy tales do not make things better.  So I see your anecdotes and raise you reality.

Would suggest you stop preaching, son.  We have seen it before.  It is vain and unseemly.

Every child dying in every cancer ward demonstrates the impotence of your fairy tales.

Welcome to the forums!


Two drink minimum. . . .

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 07:57:39 PM
^^ Strawmen... isn't that the thing where I present a false view of your argument and then try and knock that down, instead of actually addressing what you really think?

Did I get that right Doc?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 09, 2010, 08:02:01 PM
This online forum is a medium. So as not to be "media-based", I will ignore your obviously invalid (because it is "media-based") argument.

Oh, and, dear, the bible is also media.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 08:04:00 PM
^ = +1.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 09, 2010, 08:04:16 PM
Did I get that right Doc?

Yes, though fallacies often blend.  For example, he quote:

Quote
. . . not the biased (media-based) opinion most of you seem to have.

is a strawman, but it is also a Poisoning of the Well fallacy--you can just forget all of our rebuttals since they are clearly "media-biased" [Boo.  Hiss.--Ed.] and mere "opinions," whereas, of course, he has the Truth [Tm.--Ed.].

If I parsed all his fallacies this would become a mega-thread. 

He should be able to present some simple evidence--if it exists. 

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 08:09:23 PM
is a strawman, but it is also a Poisoning of the Well fallacy--you can just forget all of our rebuttals since they are clearly "media-biased"

^ = +1.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 09, 2010, 08:11:42 PM
(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/embarrassed.gif) (http://www.millan.net)

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 08:13:28 PM
If I parsed all his fallacies this would become a mega-thread. 
Crack on mate.  I think it's important - in the name of fair play - for us all to avoid using fallacies if we're going to tell others' how fallacious their arguments are.

Quote
He should be able to present some simple evidence--if it exists. 
Naturally.  I'm sure he will, too.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 08:29:37 PM
Well I will try to respond to everything everyone said, but I am only human.

Assuming media when I said it means every form of media is a straw man fallacy. If I cannot say media and you understand that I mean mostly news on TV than you should probably not read anything I say because you won't be happy with anything I say (you won't be happy with anything I say regardless).

I did not use a strawman fallacy because the strawman fallacy you alluded to wasn't in my argument (I explain my supposed use of the strawman fallacy in the last paragraph) Perhaps you should look at the two lower paragraphs in my original post to actually see what I was talking about.

Talking about proof of God face to face is loads better because I can explain everything in words I can make sure you understand because you can give me direct feed back. We can sit here arguing back and forth and get no where, or we can sit face to face and have a civil hour long conversation. Maybe getting somewhere maybe not, but we would better understand each other. With the advent of the internet people seem to get more and more suspicious of face to face conversing.

And I'm sorry if you were a Christian and choose now not to believe.

If you read everything I write including my second post, you will see that I can only judge what you think about Christianity by what you have posted on this thread because I do not know you personally. So from what I see on this thread most of you have a "News TV" based view of Christianity. If that is not the case, then I would love for you to explain how you really think Christians believe.

I will bring up a simple argument for the existence of God. It is how massive the universe is. When I see how amazing natural life is I cannot help but see a maker behind it all. It all works so well together. The laws of nature are so simple but everything hinges upon them. You may see something else, but I see a design.

My God is the God of the Bible. "I am" He calls himself to Moses. You would find that most Christians who follow Christ closely have all the major beliefs the same. That is the only way to be redeemed and have eternal life is through Jesus. The minor differences between denominations are just that; minor. People are not perfect so their beliefs may vary. If you really want to know all my beliefs then you can ask. But some of you seem to think it is preaching so I will refrain for now.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 08:32:24 PM
"Gives us all a choice to believe in him", eh?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the first commandment say that (if you believe this story is true) he is our god and we shall have no others before him?  That was supposedly carved into stone himself!  The first one!  To be obeyed as much as though shalt not kill, or lie!  If you believe the bible to be a true story, you have to believe the god in the story sure didn't want to stay hidden.

Of course, now he just relies on word of mouth.  So you sort of just have to hope to be born into a culture that got it right.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 08:35:16 PM
Hello laxbro,

Have you read our Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forumsindex.php?topic=5628.0[/url) and Etiquette guide (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3997.0) yet?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 08:37:56 PM
"Gives us all a choice to believe in him", eh?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the first commandment say that (if you believe this story is true) he is our god and we shall have no others before him?  That was supposedly carved into stone himself!  The first one!  To be obeyed as much as though shalt not kill, or lie!  If you believe the bible to be a true story, you have to believe the god in the story sure didn't want to stay hidden.

Of course, now he just relies on word of mouth.  So you sort of just have to hope to be born into a culture that got it right.

He is there whether you like it or not. So when I say you can choose to believe in Him or not, I mean you can choose to accept He is your God or you can ignore Him. And God judges the heart, not me. So people in cultures not born in Christianity can still go to Heaven.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 08:39:09 PM
And I'm sorry you're a christian and choose now to remain delusional.

How in the world does any argument we make here represent a "news TV " based argument?  That's asinine.  What news organization do you see any of this on?  The largest, by viewership, news organization we have in the US is fox news, and that sure as hell doesn't have a non-xtian slant to it.  Where on CNN or MSNBC do you see any of the arguments we make here???? Where?

Sounds to me like you heard that buzz phrase somewhere and that's all you really have.

With regards to your "size of the universe" proof, why don't you look up "argument from ignorance" as your next lesson in logical fallacies.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 08:39:44 PM
Hello laxbro,

Have you read our Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forumsindex.php?topic=5628.0[/url) and Etiquette guide (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3997.0) yet?

Yes I have. Are you saying I'm not following them? I think I have been very courteous so far and feel more attacked than attacking.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 08:45:32 PM
Yes I have. Are you saying I'm not following them? I think I have been very courteous so far and feel more attacked than attacking.
I just watched you in the Onlist list spend all of ten seconds in the Etiquette guide. That does not qualify.

And yes, I'm saying that you're not following them:

Quote from:  WWGHA Rules
Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against them.
Are you backing up your claims? No.

Quote
1. The purpose of this forum.

This forum's purpose is to discuss Marshall Brain's online material Why Won't God Heal Amputees? and God Is Imaginary. By extension, it is to discuss issues surrounding religion and the effect of religious beliefs in our society and culture. It is not a venue for preaching or evangelism. People who come here to preach or evangelise will quickly find that they have outstayed their welcome.

Are you preaching? Yes.

You'd do well to avoid playing the victim as it won't wash. You agreed to abide by our rules when you created your account. Don't let us stop you from doing so.


Eleven.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 08:46:36 PM
How in the world does any argument we make here represent a "news TV " based argument?  That's asinine.  What news organization do you see any of this on?  The largest, by viewership, news organization we have in the US is fox news, and that sure as hell doesn't have a non-xtian slant to it.  Where on CNN or MSNBC do you see any of the arguments we make here???? Where?

Sounds to me like you heard that buzz phrase somewhere and that's all you really have.

With regards to your "size of the universe" proof, why don't you look up "argument from ignorance" as your next lesson in logical fallacies.

I mean all Christians are not like Westboro Baptist Church. None of this has anything to do with my argument. It was the reason for me posting not the post itself. Please forget I said it. I'm sorry, I may have spoken hastily, but again it has nothing to do with my argument.

At some point you have to believe. You can believe in the multiple universe theory or something else but science cannot tell you why the universe is. I cannot prove there is a God 100% just like you cannot prove there is not a God 100%. I see how marvelous the universe and choose to believe that God made it all.

I suggest you read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis or something by Augustine if you want to see proof of God. People much smarter than me have written whole books about it. I certainly can't explain it to you in a simple internet thread.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 08:47:31 PM
He is there whether you like it or not. So when I say you can choose to believe in Him or not, I mean you can choose to accept He is your God or you can ignore Him. And God judges the heart, not me. So people in cultures not born in Christianity can still go to Heaven.

So now it's the "because I say so" argument.  Tell me again what separates your god beliefs from that of any other society throughout history?  Aside from what those in those around you in the culture you grew up in (and in the news media) told you?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 08:49:27 PM
He is there whether you like it or not.
Proof please.

Quote
So when I say you can choose to believe in Him or not, I mean you can choose to accept He is your God or you can ignore Him.
Please provide proof that he exists.

Quote
And God judges the heart, not me.
Proof please.

Quote
So people in cultures not born in Christianity can still go to Heaven.
Proof please, since scripture disagrees with you.

Quote
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


Thanks.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 08:51:09 PM
Quote from: laxbro link=topic=16695.msg374503#msg374503
At some point you have to believe. You can believe in the multiple universe theory or something else but science cannot tell you why the universe is. I cannot prove there is a God 100% just like you cannot prove there is not a God 100%. I see how marvelous the universe and choose to believe that God made it all.

I suggest you read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis or something by Augustine if you want to see proof of God. People much smarter than me have written whole books about it. I certainly can't explain it to you in a simple internet thread.

And he sticks the landing with a combination argument from incredulity and appeal to authority!  Why don't you throw in an argument ad populum while you're at it?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 08:52:08 PM
He is there whether you like it or not. So when I say you can choose to believe in Him or not, I mean you can choose to accept He is your God or you can ignore Him. And God judges the heart, not me. So people in cultures not born in Christianity can still go to Heaven.

So now it's the "because I say so" argument.  Tell me again what separates your god beliefs from that of any other society throughout history?  Aside from what those in those around you in the culture you grew up in (and in the news media) told you?

I was simply explaining what I meant by belief.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 08:54:04 PM
Quote from: laxbro link=topic=16695.msg374503#msg374503
At some point you have to believe. You can believe in the multiple universe theory or something else but science cannot tell you why the universe is. I cannot prove there is a God 100% just like you cannot prove there is not a God 100%. I see how marvelous the universe and choose to believe that God made it all.

I suggest you read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis or something by Augustine if you want to see proof of God. People much smarter than me have written whole books about it. I certainly can't explain it to you in a simple internet thread.

I appeal to authority on whether God exists. I came into this saying I was not going to prove God exits. I guarantee nothing I can say will convince you anyway so why try?
And he sticks the landing with a combination argument from incredulity and appeal to authority!  Why don't you throw in an argument ad populum while you're at it?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Agga on December 09, 2010, 08:56:44 PM
I was simply explaining what I meant by belief.
So nothing you said is actually a fact, it's just what you personally believe?

Gotcha.

In which case, don't tell us about it as if it is a fact with statements like:
Quote
He is there whether you like it or not


Prove it, or do the decent (and honest) thing and retract the positive assertion.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 09:00:09 PM
I was simply explaining what I meant by belief.
So nothing you said is actually a fact, it's just what you personally believe?

Gotcha.

In which case, don't tell us about it as if it is a fact with statements like:
Quote
He is there whether you like it or not

Prove it, or do the decent (and honest) thing and retract the positive assertion.


I was responding to what someone said not making an argument stand.

EVERYTHING I SAY IS A BELIEF.

There that should cover every positive assertion I make. Everything you say is a belief. Nothing can be proven 100%.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 09:01:23 PM
And I'm sorry you're a christian and choose now to remain delusional.

Moderator #11 is calling me delusion not breaking the rules?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 09:07:35 PM
Moderator #11 is calling me delusion not breaking the rules?
I have never called you delusional. Stop lying.

However, that's another rule you've broken:
Quote
Flames and abuse directed at staff will not be tolerated. Impersonation of staff will not be tolerated.

Keep going on the path you're on and you'll find yourself banned very quickly.

I hope it doesn't come to that.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 09:09:05 PM
Moderator #11 is calling me delusion not breaking the rules?
I have never called you delusional. Stop lying.

However, that's another rule you've broken:
Quote
Flames and abuse directed at staff will not be tolerated. Impersonation of staff will not be tolerated.

Keep going on the path you're on and you'll find yourself banned very quickly.

I hope it doesn't come to that.

I was asking you if you think someone calling me dillusional is breaking the rules. Someone else said it to me. I want you to moderate fairly and not simply pick on the chrisitan.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 09:15:24 PM
I was asking you if you think someone calling me dillusional is breaking the rules. Someone else said it to me.
Right, I'm with you now. The lack of punctuation threw me.

The answer is, no. Calling someone delusional is not against our rules. If you make claims to belief without providing any evidence to support your belief, the term 'delusional' is a reasonable claim to make in response.

Quote
I want you to moderate fairly and not simply pick on the chrisitan.
I do moderate fairly and the member's theological position is irrelevant to me. I'm not here to pick on anyone, including christians.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 09:17:24 PM
I was asking you if you think someone calling me dillusional is breaking the rules. Someone else said it to me.
Right, I'm with you now. The lack of punctuation threw me.

The answer is, no. Calling someone delusional is not against our rules. If you make claims to belief without provding any evidence to support your belief, the term 'delusional' is a reasonable claim to make in response.

Quote
I want you to moderate fairly and not simply pick on the chrisitan.
I do moderate fairly and the member's theological position is irrelevant to me. I'm not here to pick on anyone, including christians.

But he said I now remain delusional. Meaning I was delusional before because I am a Christian. It had nothing to do with me supporting myself.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 09:23:27 PM
But he said I now remain delusional. Meaning I was delusional before because I am a Christian. It had nothing to do with me supporting myself.
After you made a positive claim:

He is there whether you like it or not.

The ball is now in your court. Can you support your claim with evidence?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 09:26:59 PM
But he said I now remain delusional. Meaning I was delusional before because I am a Christian. It had nothing to do with me supporting myself.
After you made a positive claim:

He is there whether you like it or not.

The ball is now in your court. Can you support your claim with evidence?

STAY ON TOPIC. just kidding  :) that was my bad. I guess just another rule I'm breaking.

I am supporting what I say. If they choose not to listen then it is on them. I am not calling them evil because they don't believe what I believe. I am being very courteous and would appreciate the same back.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Historicity on December 09, 2010, 09:31:11 PM
And I'm sorry if you were a Christian and choose now not to believe.
I assume you are speaking from experience.  If so, then for you belief is something you can turn on or off.  You must be gullible.  Can you ever, ever grasp there are people who are not gullible and for whom belief is not an emotion?

Quote
I will bring up a simple argument for the existence of God. It is how massive the universe is. When I see how amazing natural life is I cannot help but see a maker behind it all. It all works so well together. The laws of nature are so simple but everything hinges upon them. You may see something else, but I see a design.

Thank you.  After the universe was 10 billion years old the Earth formed.  After another billion years single celled life formed.  After 3 billion years multicellular life formed.  After half a billion more years the multicellular life developed a species which used symbol forming communication which could then be exapted to math and logic and transgenerational build up of knowledge.

In another 1.5 billion years Earth will become unihabitable.

99.999999999999999% of the universe is vacuum which would kill a human in 15 seconds.  70% of it is water and humans don't have gills.  On the planets with enough gas pressure it is usually too much or the atmosphere is poisonous.  None of the nearby planets are good for colonization.  That 99%+ also refers to temperatures far outside of our range of -75° to 60° celsius.

The diameter of Earth is 0.04 light seconds.  The nearest star is 4.37 light years away.  The nearest big galaxy is 2.5 million light years away.  The visible edge of the universe is ...  well, you get the picture (or not).

The universe does not look like it was made for us.  To us, it looks like the universe was not made at all, that is, not by some Designer.

Can you grasp that?

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 09, 2010, 09:31:48 PM
I am supporting what I say.
You are not supporting what you say. You are merely stating your opinion as if it was fact. If you can back up what you've said, please do. Otherwise you are not supporting your own opinion with anything other than your own opinion.

That is not supporting what you say with evidence, it is repeating an opinion as if it was fact.

If you have evidence that god is real, we'd love to see it.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 09:37:53 PM
A delusion is a fixed false belief.  I wasn't calling you ugly or stupid.  If you're beliefs aren't false, let's hear why not.  So far all I have heard is a combination of arguments of incredulity and ignorance, appeal to authority, some strawman arguments mixed in, and an overall "cover your eyes and ears because I say so" argument.

My "delusional" comment was in direct response to your "I'm sorry you were a christian and now choose not to believe" comment, which was an incredibly rude and arrogant thing to say.  I "choose" to base my beliefs on reality and what comes through logic, evidence, and common sense.  What's to be sorry for?

My recommendation to you is to stop for a bit, drink some coffee, and take this one thread at a time.  I think you have a lot you can learn from this website.  But first thing you have to do is uncover your eyes and ears for a moment and brace yourself for the possibility that what you were raised to believe about invisible guys in he sky just might be wrong.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 09:43:28 PM
A delusion is a fixed false belief.  I wasn't calling you ugly or stupid.  If you're beliefs aren't false, let's hear why not.  So far all I have heard is a combination of arguments of incredulity and ignorance, appeal to authority, some strawman arguments mixed in, and an overall "cover your eyes and ears because I say so" argument.

My "delusional" comment was in direct response to your "I'm sorry you were a christian and now choose not to believe" comment, which was an incredibly rude and arrogant thing to say.  I "choose" to base my beliefs on reality and what comes through logic, evidence, and common sense.  What's to be sorry for?

My recommendation to you is to stop for a bit, drink some coffee, and take this one thread at a time.  I think you have a lot you can learn from this website.  But first thing you have to do is uncover your eyes and ears for a moment and brace yourself for the possibility that what you were raised to believe about invisible guys in he sky just might be wrong.

I'm sorry. That comment was not meant to be arrogant. I was saying I'm sorry that Christians most likely did not treat you very well if you lost faith in God. Of course, that could not be the case. I was speaking hastily.

What I believe is based upon my own thinking. Using my logic just like you. So calling me delusional seems like an attack to me. Of course everyone gets ideas from other people. Just like everything you believe was not completely original.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 09:48:55 PM
My parents and those I was brought up around treated me fine, thank you very much.  I don't base my beliefs on who treats me the nicest. 

And again what logic leads you to your christian beliefs?  Please explain to us, minus the already mentioned logical fallacies, what logical thought process led you to these beliefs.  Because seems to me you base your beliefs on what you were told to believe by the culture around you.  And you accepted I because they treated you so nicely.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 09, 2010, 09:50:25 PM
I did not use a strawman fallacy

You did. 

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because the strawman fallacy you alluded to wasn't in my argument

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Perhaps you should look at the two lower paragraphs in my original post to actually see what I was talking about.

Been there . . . done that . . . crappy t-shirt.

Your evasion and stonewalling noted.

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Talking about proof of God face to face is loads better because

It is easier to stonewall and blather in conversation, yes, I know.  We want evidence.  Provide it or do not waste our time.

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And I'm sorry if you were a Christian and choose now not to believe.

I am sorry you will feel Thor's hammer rammed up your [CENSORED--Ed.]

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If you read everything I write including my second post, you will see

That you have no actual evidence, you are a fallacy factory, and are still stonewalling.  Yes, I know.

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I will bring up a simple argument for the existence of God. It is how massive the universe is.

FAIL

Next. . . .

An appeal to your own ignorance and wonder is not evidence, son.

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My God is the God of the Bible. "I am" He calls himself to Moses.

So you forsake his superior deity?  The one who gave him Israel when he divided the Earth amongst his sons?

I will pray for you.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 10:04:42 PM
And I'm sorry if you were a Christian and choose now not to believe.
I assume you are speaking from experience.  If so, then for you belief is something you can turn on or off.  You must be gullible.  Can you ever, ever grasp there are people who are not gullible and for whom belief is not an emotion?

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I will bring up a simple argument for the existence of God. It is how massive the universe is. When I see how amazing natural life is I cannot help but see a maker behind it all. It all works so well together. The laws of nature are so simple but everything hinges upon them. You may see something else, but I see a design.

Thank you.  After the universe was 10 billion years old the Earth formed.  After another billion years single celled life formed.  After 3 billion years multicellular life formed.  After half a billion more years the multicellular life developed a species which used symbol forming communication which could then be exapted to math and logic and transgenerational build up of knowledge.

In another 1.5 billion years Earth will become unihabitable.

99.999999999999999% of the universe is vacuum which would kill a human in 15 seconds.  70% of it is water and humans don't have gills.  On the planets with enough gas pressure it is usually too much or the atmosphere is poisonous.  None of the nearby planets are good for colonization.  That 99%+ also refers to temperatures far outside of our range of -75° to 60° celsius.

The diameter of Earth is 0.04 light seconds.  The nearest star is 4.37 light years away.  The nearest big galaxy is 2.5 million light years away.  The visible edge of the universe is ...  well, you get the picture (or not).

The universe does not look like it was made for us.  To us, it looks like the universe was not made at all, that is, not by some Designer.

Can you grasp that?

I can grasp that. I get a different conclusion from that evidence.

I believe it it is a "miracle" that we exist. The universe seems to be so bent on us not existing that some scientists believe it is beyond the realm of statistical possibility.

I believe that God created the universe so large to show how small we really are and how great He is.

It seems to me that the only way we could have existed is from a God creating us.

Because people want my proof I will go on to inertial arguments.
The universe is expanding and so we look at the big bang that started everything into motion. But what started the big bang? E=mc^2 so matter comes from energy, but where does energy come from. At some point, something that wasn't had to come into existence. I see that "something" that started everything into motion as God. At some point, you have to believe in something because nothing can be proven without a doubt.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 10:11:22 PM
I promise you that I do not have any new evidence for you. This is why I cannot prove God exists to you. We both look at the same things and get different conclusions from them. You either believe God exists or you do not. Science does not prove anything really. It only explains how things work, not the reasons why things work.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on December 09, 2010, 11:09:08 PM
I believe it it is a "miracle" that we exist. The universe seems to be so bent on us not existing that some scientists believe it is beyond the realm of statistical possibility.

laxbro, you do this for a very specific reason.  You see, you start with the notion that your God exists and you are cramming everything about reality into that mold.  Everything you see is some sort of reflection of God, not because that's really what's happening, but because your belief literally forces you to do it.  Here is an example...

I believe that God created the universe so large to show how small we really are and how great He is.

And if God created a universe that just contained our solar system, you would say He did it to show his emminent master plan or some shit.  And if God created a universe that consisted of just our planet, you would say He did it all just to keep himself close to us.  And if... and if... and if.  It doesn't stop.  You probably do it with everything.  Most of you do it. 

The reality is, your notion that God created everything just for us is really stupid.  It would make much more logical sense if God created something that would allow us to live and thrive in the vast majority of the universe.  Really, at some point you have to separate out your beliefs and look at reality.  Your notion here just plain doesn't add up.  You would have a much better argument if it really was just our little solar system here.     

It seems to me that the only way we could have existed is from a God creating us.

Again, because you FIRST believe in God, you are forced into that notion.  If you were someone who approached the question from a rational standpoint, you would actually look for other possibilities instead of discounting anything that goes against what you have been brainwashed to believe. You don't do that.  You think you don't have to do it, because you believe you already know the truth.  Well, you don't know the truth.  Sorry.  There are literally billions of ways our universe could have been created without the Christan God's involvement.  The fact that you are too closed minded to see that is not really our problem.  It's yours. It's a little pitiful to be honest.

The universe is expanding and so we look at the big bang that started everything into motion. But what started the big bang?

Again, there are literally billions of possibilities.  Without knowing what exists outside, or what existed before our universe, everything is a guess. It could have been 2 universes colliding.  Or maybe giant black holes sucking matter from one universe and pouring it into our universe.  To say the only possibility is God, is really very narrow minded.  Open your eyes. 

You make it seem like because we don't know what caused the big bang, that we are naturally just supposed to believe it was the Christian God by default.  Why do you have a hard time seeing how foolish that is?  Why would anyone in their right mind do that?  Your argument has no greater claim than that of Zeus, Thor, Allah, Buddha, or any other God ever invented by man. 

E=mc^2 so matter comes from energy, but where does energy come from. At some point, something that wasn't had to come into existence. I see that "something" that started everything into motion as God. At some point, you have to believe in something because nothing can be proven without a doubt.

You think like ancient man used to think laxbro.  You do know that this is 2010 right?  If you are confused, think about it this way. When ancient man saw lightning an didn't understand where it came from, they also said, "it must be God."  And when ancient man saw a tornado, they didn't understand where it came from, so they also said "it must be God."  And when laxbro says something had to start everything in motion and doesn't understand how it happened, he says "it must be God".  Dude.  Just stop.  We know how lightning works.  We know how tornados happen.  We may not yet know exactly what started everything in motion, but the idea that there is no other explanation than the Christian God is... well... just plain dumb.  In light of the severe lack of evidence, it should be rejected immediately. 

All we are asking you to do is think like a man laxbro.  Not like a child. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 11:19:55 PM
I believe that God created the universe so large to show how small we really are and how great He is.

Vanity is pretty petty even as far as HUMAN qualities go, let alone that of an all-powerful deity.  Even Zeus wasnt this insecure that he had to show off how awesome is by the size of his, well, "universe". 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 11:30:36 PM
I promise you that I do not have any new evidence for you. This is why I cannot prove God exists to you. We both look at the same things and get different conclusions from them. You either believe God exists or you do not. Science does not prove anything really. It only explains how things work, not the reasons why things work.

 I think one of your fundamental problems is you look at this as some sort of situation where the lack of evidence on each side carries equal weight. 

When one is making an outlandish or extraordinary claim, the burden of evidence is on that person, not the one calling bullshit. 

I cant prove that leprechauns dont exist.  I have no evidence that the abominable snowman isnt real.  I cant prove that there's not an alien warship orbiting around the sun in the same orbit as the earth but diametrically opposite, so that at any given moment it is obscured from our view by the sun.  Do you consider that as equal evidence that these things exist?  Because I dont have solid evidence that they dont?  I certainly hope not.

Another example.  Let's say I tell you that I have an extremely rare, extremely valuable coin in my possession.  Try and prove me wrong.  You cant.  You can search my house up and down.  I can always tell you it's someplace youre not looking.  You can dig around my backyard, I can tell you you are not digging deep enough.  Try as you might, you can never prove me wrong. 

On the flip side, however, I can absolutely prove that such a coin DOES exist in my possession, if I were telling the truth.  I can simply show it to you.  Are you starting to understand how, especially when it comes to invisible, undetectable things, the lack of evidence against does not carry the same weight as the lack of evidence for?

Extraordinary claims can be dismissed without extraordinary evidence.  Your christian beliefs are a product of your christian upbringing.  Had you grown up in a different time and place you would have had a different set of beliefs and a different set of gods.  It's all just cultural superstitions.

Think otherwise?  Well let's hear your evidence.  Again, minus the arguments from ingnorance/incredulity, minus the appeals to authority, minus any more logical fallacies.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 09, 2010, 11:45:35 PM
I promise you that I do not have any new evidence for you. This is why I cannot prove God exists to you. We both look at the same things and get different conclusions from them. You either believe God exists or you do not. Science does not prove anything really. It only explains how things work, not the reasons why things work.

 I think one of your fundamental problems is you look at this as some sort of situation where the lack of evidence on each side carries equal weight. 

When one is making an outlandish or extraordinary claim, the burden of evidence is on that person, not the one calling bullshit. 

I cant prove that leprechauns dont exist.  I have no evidence that the abominable snowman isnt real.  I cant prove that there's not an alien warship orbiting around the sun in the same orbit as the earth but diametrically opposite, so that at any given moment it is obscured from our view by the sun.  Do you consider that as equal evidence that these things exist?  Because I dont have solid evidence that they dont?  I certainly hope not.

Another example.  Let's say I tell you that I have an extremely rare, extremely valuable coin in my possession.  Try and prove me wrong.  You cant.  You can search my house up and down.  I can always tell you it's someplace youre not looking.  You can dig around my backyard, I can tell you you are not digging deep enough.  Try as you might, you can never prove me wrong. 

On the flip side, however, I can absolutely prove that such a coin DOES exist in my possession, if I were telling the truth.  I can simply show it to you.  Are you starting to understand how, especially when it comes to invisible, undetectable things, the lack of evidence against does not carry the same weight as the lack of evidence for?

Extraordinary claims can be dismissed without extraordinary evidence.  Your christian beliefs are a product of your christian upbringing.  Had you grown up in a different time and place you would have had a different set of beliefs and a different set of gods.  It's all just cultural superstitions.

Think otherwise?  Well let's hear your evidence.  Again, minus the arguments from ingnorance/incredulity, minus the appeals to authority, minus any more logical fallacies.

But if you show me the coin I can say you are using light tricks like a magician might so it is not really there. Or you are using a really good hologram of a coin.

You learn from experience then correct? You believe something when you can touch it and experience it in many different ways. So I cannot prove something with words on a forum which is what I have been trying to say from the very beginning. I think you can experience the love of God through talking and being in fellowship with Christians who truly love God. Until you experience that, then I cannot possibly prove to you He exists.

You believe in unbelief I presume. So your base point is that there is no God, so i need to prove to you there is a God to change your belief. I come from a base point that there is a God, so you would need to prove to me that there is a good reason not to believe in him. But you will not be able to prove that to me.

Proof would be in this case having no reasonable doubt. But there is always doubt possible, so when is it not reasonable to doubt anymore? It's subjective. It's decided by the person. So your doubt may be reasonable to you, but someone else's doubt may not be reasonable to them.

If God slapped you in the face would you believe in him? Is that prove him beyond a reasonable doubt? Because anyone could explain it away still.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 09, 2010, 11:57:08 PM
But if you show me the coin I can say you are using light tricks like a magician might so it is not really there. Or you are using a really good hologram of a coin.

That's where reasonable doubt comes in.  Saying I am producing a "hologram of a coin" is not a reasonable doubt.  Saying there's no invisible guy in the sky watching me and having a "plan" for me despite my having free will (which makes NO sense) is a reasonable doubt.  in the same sense that not believing in a guy in a fiery chariot riding across the sky every day.  Understand?

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You learn from experience then correct? You believe something when you can touch it and experience it in many different ways. So I cannot prove something with words on a forum which is what I have been trying to say from the very beginning. I think you can experience the love of God through talking and being in fellowship with Christians who truly love God. Until you experience that, then I cannot possibly prove to you He exists.

These wonderful feelings you get are from convincing yourselves of the existence of something you really really want to exist.  Kind of like the wonderful feelings I would get if convinced myself I was gonna win the lottery tomorrow.  The only difference is, tomorrow comes and I havent won the lottery and reality hits me in the face.  For you, you have to wait until you die, which means no one is ever able to tell you differentally so the delusion perists.

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You believe in unbelief I presume.

what the hell is that supposed to mean?  I believe in all kinds of things.  I believe that Stevie Ray Vaughan was the greatest guitarist ever.  I believe that nothing in the world is better than enjoying a game at Fenway Park with my nephew on a sunny summer day when the Sox are playing the Yankees.  I believe in all kinds of things.  Just nothing involving invisible deities

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So your base point is that there is no God, so i need to prove to you there is a God to change your belief. I come from a base point that there is a God, so you would need to prove to me that there is a good reason not to believe in him. But you will not be able to prove that to me.

See my previous post on the need for evidence for proving existence vs non-existence.  If you still havent gotten, someone else will need to explain it to you.

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Proof would be in this case having no reasonable doubt. But there is always doubt possible, so when is it not reasonable to doubt anymore? It's subjective. It's decided by the person. So your doubt may be reasonable to you, but someone else's doubt may not be reasonable to them.

See above.  Rejecting invisible guys in the sky based on cultural superstitions is very much reasonable doubt.

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If God slapped you in the face would you believe in him? Is that prove him beyond a reasonable doubt? Because anyone could explain it away still.

Yes, I absolutely would believe in him then.  Let's see him try.  Waiting...and still waiting...(looking at watch)...and waiting...
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 10, 2010, 12:19:38 AM
You seem to not understand me concerning the existence vs. non existence. I cannot prove existence because there is always doubt. The person weighing the evidence decides what is reasonable doubt or not. You obviously still have what you perceive as reasonable doubts. I do not. You cannot say "your doubts are unreasonable to you" because they are my own doubts and you cannot tell whether they are reasonable or not to me.

God is not invisible. He is perceived in different ways. He is plain as day to me. Your not going to like this cliche analogy but I will use it anyway. You cannot see the wind but you know it's there because of its effects and you experience wind. I believe you cannot see God but you can know He is there by the effects He has on people and your experiences. I have experiences of God all the time. Have you experienced fellowship with loving Godly Christians? if not then how can you say what the experience is like. It is nothing like the feeling of false hope (such as your lottery example).
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: GamerGirl on December 10, 2010, 02:14:35 AM
hey laxbro! Relax, bro.  God still loves you, right? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 10, 2010, 04:41:54 AM
I promise you that I do not have any new evidence for you.

You have no evidence nor can you address the negative evidence apparently.

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This is why I cannot prove God exists to you.

Because you have no evidence.

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We both look at the same things and get different conclusions from them.

No, you simply refuse to look at reality objectively.  Reality is not a matter of opinion, no matter how much you wish to make it so.

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Science does not prove anything really.

Of course it does.  Do not extend your ignorance of it to others.

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It only explains how things work, not the reasons why things work.

Argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam: do not assume a "why."

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on December 10, 2010, 06:03:16 AM
Quote from: laxbro
If I cannot say media and you understand that I mean mostly news on TV than you should probably not read anything I say because you won't be happy with anything I say (you won't be happy with anything I say regardless).

You're right. There is no telling what other words you use without knowing what they mean.

Why is your incorrect diction the reader's fault, anyway? Why the ad hominem? Because it is easier than apologizing, and admitting your error?

 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on December 10, 2010, 08:34:43 AM
I promise you that I do not have any new evidence for you. This is why I cannot prove God exists to you. We both look at the same things and get different conclusions from them. You either believe God exists or you do not. Science does not prove anything really. It only explains how things work, not the reasons why things work.

So, your position is the evidence suggests that there is a god if the universe is large and we can only survive in a small portion of it. Many theists position is that the world seems perfectly suited to us, and this suggests a divine creator.

So if A, then god; or if Not A, then god.

All I see here is people looking for thing to support their foregone conclusion. And none of it would suggest anything other than a deist god.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on December 10, 2010, 08:42:10 AM
I promise you that I do not have any new evidence for you. This is why I cannot prove God exists to you. We both look at the same things and get different conclusions from them. You either believe God exists or you do not. Science does not prove anything really. It only explains how things work, not the reasons why things work.

All I am interested in is evidence, your evidence, not CS Lewis'. Don't be so lax bro! Therefor I smite thee.

AND Doctor X:
I love when you use words like "pluperfect subjunctive." I went to bed last night saying it over and over and over.... Therefor I applaud thee.-plus one
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 10, 2010, 11:03:44 AM
You seem to not understand me concerning the existence vs. non existence. I cannot prove existence because there is always doubt. The person weighing the evidence decides what is reasonable doubt or not. You obviously still have what you perceive as reasonable doubts. I do not. You cannot say "your doubts are unreasonable to you" because they are my own doubts and you cannot tell whether they are reasonable or not to me.
wow, it didnt' take this one long to retreat to solipcistic claims.  And no, reasonable doubt isn't an opinion.  It's based on reason and therefore evidence.

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God is not invisible. He is perceived in different ways. He is plain as day to me. Your not going to like this cliche analogy but I will use it anyway. You cannot see the wind but you know it's there because of its effects and you experience wind. I believe you cannot see God but you can know He is there by the effects He has on people and your experiences. I have experiences of God all the time. Have you experienced fellowship with loving Godly Christians? if not then how can you say what the experience is like. It is nothing like the feeling of false hope (such as your lottery example).
  and other gods are just as "plain as day" to those who belief in them. So, does that mean all gods are as real as yours?  And I have objective evidence of the wind. Nothing the same for your god.  All theists claim the same thigns for their respective gods and none of them have any evidence for such things or how to tell which god is doing it.  and I've had a lot of experience with "Godly Christians".  All of them call themselves "godly", just like you.  And all of them are sure that those Christians who disagree with them aren't RealTrueChristianstm at all. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 10, 2010, 12:07:11 PM
Message boards do not compare to face to face conversations just for this reason. I say one thing and ten people say something back. I do not have time to rebuttal all things said back to me. In a conversation I can reply to one thing from one person one at a time. I did not want to and will stop attempting at convincing you God exists in this thread. Start a thread called reasons God exist and reasons he doesn't and see if people discuss it there.

The question posed in this specific thread was "why won't God heal amputees?" This is a question posed in the video to Christians. I found this question most intriguing in the video so I answered it in my first post. This question also presupposes that God exists for the sake of the discussion. Just like in a thermodynamics problem you need to assume certain things to get anywhere.

The question assumes God exists so my answer assumed God exists. If I had to explain every aspect of my faith in answering every question it would get rather annoying and time consuming like it has here.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on December 10, 2010, 12:27:52 PM
Laxbro:
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Message boards do not compare to face to face conversations just for this reason. I say one thing and ten people say something back. I do not have time to rebuttal all things said back to me. In a conversation I can reply to one thing from one person one at a time.

There are discussion rooms and debate rooms available for one on ones, if you really prefer this.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on December 10, 2010, 12:32:29 PM
Message boards do not compare to face to face conversations just for this reason. I say one thing and ten people say something back. I do not have time to rebuttal all things said back to me.

This is just about the only area where I have sympathy for Christians who come to WWGHA.  It's actually the same reason that I don't participate in boards run by theists... it's not that I wouldn't be able to hold my own against them, because I would.  It's simply that I would have too many people to respond to, and I just don't have that much free time.  For those rare few theists who come here and stay here (without the intent of trolling, that is), I have to admit to having a good deal of admiration for their perseverance.  Well, either that or their good fortune at not being nearly as busy as I am.

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The question ["Why won't god heal amputees?"] assumes God exists

No, it does not... that's the point.  Atheists answer the question by saying that it's because god does not exist.  The question doesn't presuppose the existence of god any more than asking "How can Santa fly around the world in one night?" presupposes that Santa exists.

When you try to address the question, you basically have two options: assume that god exists, and come up with some insane mental exercises to explain why he doesn't heal amputees, or you can just say that he doesn't exist at all.  It's like the classic problem of pain.  If you ask a Christian why an all-loving omnimax god would allow so much pain, you're likely to get something like C.S. Lewis' book on the subject.  Ask an atheist, and the response you'll get is most likely, "he wouldn't".  When trying to figure out which answer makes more sense, one would do well to keep Occam's Razor in mind.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on December 10, 2010, 12:36:26 PM
But I would like to provide a holistic view of Christianity and not the biased (media-based) opinion most of you seem to have.

Do you base your opions of a large,hetrerogenius, multimillion member group of people based on those few hundred you know from personal experience....or do you base your opion on what you see in the newspaper, TV, and so forth?

You invoke the bogeyman of "the media" as a way of discrediting those that disagree with you. If it weren't for the media, you could equally have charged up with our biased opinions based on or limited exposure/provincialism.

Therefore, your point that our opinions are biased because they are media based is moot.



Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 10, 2010, 12:42:00 PM
But I would like to provide a holistic view of Christianity and not the biased (media-based) opinion most of you seem to have.

Do you base your opions of a large,hetrerogenius, multimillion member group of people based on those few hundred you know from personal experience....or do you base your opion on what you see in the newspaper, TV, and so forth?

You invoke the bogeyman of "the media" as a way of discrediting those that disagree with you. If it weren't for the media, you could equally have charged up with our biased opinions based on or limited exposure/provincialism.

Therefore, your point that our opinions are biased because they are media based is moot.


Ok an earlier in the thread we discussed this. Even if the point is moot. It had nothing to do with the actual answer to the question. It was my reason for answering the question.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 10, 2010, 12:45:56 PM
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The question ["Why won't god heal amputees?"] assumes God exists

No, it does not... that's the point.  Atheists answer the question by saying that it's because god does not exist.  The question doesn't presuppose the existence of god any more than asking "How can Santa fly around the world in one night?" presupposes that Santa exists.

When you try to address the question, you basically have two options: assume that god exists, and come up with some insane mental exercises to explain why he doesn't heal amputees, or you can just say that he doesn't exist at all.  It's like the classic problem of pain.  If you ask a Christian why an all-loving omnimax god would allow so much pain, you're likely to get something like C.S. Lewis' book on the subject.  Ask an atheist, and the response you'll get is most likely, "he wouldn't".  When trying to figure out which answer makes more sense, one would do well to keep Occam's Razor in mind.

The video should have said "figure out reasons why God exists, if the reasons don't make sense to you then don't believe in him." But it didn't. It tries to pose questions that are impossible to answer. I was writing what I thought to be a valid answer to the question, but it is up to the reader to decide whether my answer is valid or not.

Or the reader can just say God does not exist and not read the answer. Which I don't blame him or her for. It is their right not to read or respond to anything I say.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 10, 2010, 01:15:45 PM
laxbro, are you claimign you didn't kwno what a forum was and blithered into here?  I think you are being disingenous with your excuses.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Tykster on December 10, 2010, 01:39:02 PM


The question assumes God exists so my answer assumed God exists.

The question only acknowledges that some people think that God exists, that's the only presupposition you can claim about that sentence. It[1] would not need be acknowledged, if previously someone i.e. the faithful believers in God, hadn't brought this entity into the public psyche in the first place.

If I had to explain every aspect of my faith in answering every question it would get rather annoying and time consuming like it has here.

You dont' want defend your faith because you get weary from it, what does that indicate about that faith?

And who is asking you defend every aspect? You're probably just stuck on the first one.....
 1. God
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_020 on December 10, 2010, 01:44:44 PM
Hi laxbro

There are discussion rooms and debate rooms available for one on ones, if you really prefer this.

I am the moderator of that area and I highly recommend this if you feel overwhelmed.   I can set up a discussion room for you and anyone you invite.  You should mutually agree to the moderation rules.  If you wish a well regulated debate or an open discussion, we can accommodate you. 

This (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=11221.0) is where the magic happens, so if you are interested, just say the word

Happy posting
020
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Tykster on December 10, 2010, 02:13:37 PM

God is not invisible. He is perceived in different ways. He is plain as day to me. Your not going to like this cliche analogy but I will use it anyway. You cannot see the wind but you know it's there because of its effects and you experience wind. I believe you cannot see God but you can know He is there by the effects He has on people and your experiences. I have experiences of God all the time. Have you experienced fellowship with loving Godly Christians? if not then how can you say what the experience is like. It is nothing like the feeling of false hope (such as your lottery example).

Then let's have a look at him! Has he got a big white beard? Did Hollywood get it right? Is his voice really that deep? Do tell......




But what started the big bang? E=mc^2 so matter comes from energy, but where does energy come from.



I don't think that is quite true.... the equation explains the relationship between matter and energy ( after 10-43 seconds after lift off so to speak ), and that only. It doesn't explain the cause, if it did we would call it the "cause of the universe" and then God would be well and truly proven NOT to exist as its creator.


At some point, something that wasn't had to come into existence. I see that "something" that started everything into motion as God. At some point, you have to believe in something because nothing can be proven without a doubt


At some point one does have to believe in something...that point is usually arrived at when the evidence overwhelmingly points to it, not because of peer pressure/it feels good/childhood indoctrination, etc. etc.

I gather from your introduction you're at school. Question: Do any of the equations you deal with ever make an allowance for divine intervention....or would that just be a ridiculous idea ?




Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 10, 2010, 02:52:01 PM
laxbro, are you claimign you didn't kwno what a forum was and blithered into here?  I think you are being disingenous with your excuses.

I'm saying I know exactly what a forum is. I'm also saying that discussing the scientific evidences of God, are not well suited for a forum such as this. I was answering the question "why wont God heal amputees?" which I believe a smaller and more suitable discussion for a forum.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 10, 2010, 03:01:45 PM

At some point, something that wasn't had to come into existence. I see that "something" that started everything into motion as God. At some point, you have to believe in something because nothing can be proven without a doubt


At some point one does have to believe in something...that point is usually arrived at when the evidence overwhelmingly points to it, not because of peer pressure/it feels good/childhood indoctrination, etc. etc.

I gather from your introduction you're at school. Question: Do any of the equations you deal with ever make an allowance for divine intervention....or would that just be a ridiculous idea ?

Equations and science only deal with the what of the universe. How it works and so on. It cannot explain the whys of the universe. Science deals with what we can observe with our 5 senses. I believe there is something beyond the natural. Supernatural as it is called. God is supernatural so I cannot prove him with science. You would have to believe supernatural experiences are much more than just electric signals in your brain. All of this is the very reason I do not wish to argue the evidences of God because this is not the place to go into talks of the supernatural and not the audience that wants to hear it.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 10, 2010, 03:20:09 PM
I'm saying I know exactly what a forum is. I'm also saying that discussing the scientific evidences of God, are not well suited for a forum such as this. I was answering the question "why wont God heal amputees?" which I believe a smaller and more suitable discussion for a forum.

no one else has had a problem, except those Christians who want an excuse.  and you've been offered an alternative.  Are you goign to take anyone up on it?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 10, 2010, 03:43:02 PM
I'm saying I know exactly what a forum is. I'm also saying that discussing the scientific evidences of God, are not well suited for a forum such as this. I was answering the question "why wont God heal amputees?" which I believe a smaller and more suitable discussion for a forum.

no one else has had a problem, except those Christians who want an excuse.  and you've been offered an alternative.  Are you goign to take anyone up on it?

No one else has had a problem because no one else is the minority. And my alternative would be a face to face talk, but that won't happen unless you talk to a Christian you know and trust personally.

I have already admitted that I cannot attempt to explain why I believe God exists without going beyond science and I'm assuming no one here would desire a conversation that talk about something beyond science.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_011 on December 10, 2010, 03:46:58 PM
Try us.

Start a thread in the Testimonials section and tell us why you believe there is a god.

That's exactly what that section is for.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on December 10, 2010, 03:53:22 PM
Yes^^^That!

You must believe for some reason(s).

We are interested.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Tykster on December 10, 2010, 03:56:06 PM


God is supernatural .....


A baseless assertion, but let's go with it anyway....


The supernatural world is just another place to deposit all that is not observable in our universe, and that is where you tell us your god resides. How convenient. People so far have been very patient in explaining where the burden of proof lies, and you still don't get it.

The supernatural world means not of this world. You merrily state that your god happens to live there, hence, it too, is NOT OF THIS WORLD, it's in your imagination...I defer to the earlier comments about you being delusional...this is the very essence of delusion, with a healthy dose of denial.






Equations and science only deal with the what of the universe. How it works and so on. It cannot explain the whys of the universe. Science deals with what we can observe with our 5 senses. I believe there is something beyond the natural. Supernatural as it is called. God is supernatural so I cannot prove him with science. You would have to believe supernatural experiences are much more than just electric signals in your brain. All of this is the very reason I do not wish to argue the evidences of God because this is not the place to go into talks of the supernatural and not the audience that wants to hear it.


Science and the scientific method are the best that humankind has come up with to explain that which we observe around us. Science and the order it unveils is what encourages mankind to seek and probe further, to answer questions that we curious monkeys occasionally think of.  If the answer to any scientific inquiry is "God", that essentially ends any further questions. Your questions though are the "whys" of this world...here's a wake up call, there are no "whys" it's all probabilities and time  ...it's a vast space this universe, and to paraphrase a much smarter person than me, it's so big  that rare things happen all the time....

You're an engineering student, how do you know when to stop trusting science and start trusting the divine?


edit : punctuation.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_020 on December 10, 2010, 03:58:59 PM
... I'm assuming no one here would desire a conversation that talk about something beyond science.

To a point, I think this is accurate.  The conversations we have tend to revolve around what is or is not fact.  The best way people have to discover this is the scientific method.  So whether the topic of discussion is religion, science, politics or chocolate chip cookies, I think at some point, whatever your opinion, you will be asked, "how do you know?" which leads back to science.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on December 10, 2010, 04:23:05 PM
If the OP is right, then nothing is ever wrong, under any set of circumstances, and we humans should just be happy to be alive as we get swallowed up by the ground in an earthquake or drowned in a tsunami or cooked alive by pissed catholics.

"There is nothing to pray here." should be their motto and those of us not yet lacking in body parts or cancers or bullets in the head are no different than those who are experiencing that natural state of existence and there is no need to differentiate in any way.

Now that I understand the concept "Jesus loves whatever is left of you", I understand the religion better.

This helps.

Sig time! I see a bumper sticker in my future.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Alzael on December 10, 2010, 11:17:05 PM
Equations and science only deal with the what of the universe. How it works and so on. It cannot explain the whys of the universe.


This is the inherent flaw in your thinking. Or rather two of them. First, you're assuming that there is a 'why' to the universe. This is a fallacy, there is no reason why there should be a why to existence. Humans simply seem to possess a need to assign meaning to things, even when there is no reason.

Also, and this is the one you should really pay attention to.

Religion cannot answer the whys of the universe either.

Your religion, your belief in god, is without proof of any kind. You have no way to even begin to prove that anything in your religion is true, as you've demonstrated here. You try to claim that you have evidence through things that you have experienced, but you are either being ignorant or dishonest. Evidence that you cannot demonstrate to others is not evidence. If you cannot show your evidence for your belief then you do not have the evidence, it is that simple. To claim otherwise is dishonest. Lacking any evidence to prove your religion you cannot make claims about anything regarding the whys of the universe. The best that you can ever hope to offer is an uninformed opinion about the way the universe is.

So on the one hand, there is science. A system based on the accumulation of information through systematic testing, inquiry, and accumulation of evidence in order to understand the world and how it works. Or your way of doing it. Which amounts to either making up answers based on whatever you want it to be, or blindly believing in something someone else tells you and never expanding our learning.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Positiveaob on December 11, 2010, 11:36:10 AM
You seem to not understand me concerning the existence vs. non existence. I cannot prove existence because there is always doubt. The person weighing the evidence decides what is reasonable doubt or not. You obviously still have what you perceive as reasonable doubts. I do not. You cannot say "your doubts are unreasonable to you" because they are my own doubts and you cannot tell whether they are reasonable or not to me.

I can absolutely state what doubts are reasonable.  That is what is being debated, what doubts are "reasonable" and which ones arent.  Belief in invisible, undetectable beings in the sky arent reasonable.  Especially when you would have believed in a different set of invisible beings had you grown up in a different time and place.  Especially when a belief in said god or gods doesnt change anything, and it really doesnt.  I have a good career, great family, good health, and happy life, and I dont believe in your god for a second, much less "worship" him as a "lord".  It makes no difference.

Quote
God is not invisible.

Sure he is.  You cant see him, he is therefore invisible.  Actually, come to think of it, you're right.  He's not invisible at all.  He's non-existent.

Quote
You cannot see the wind but you know it's there because of its effects and you experience wind.

You can feel the wind.  Even hear it and smell it sometimes.  It can be perceived through your senses.  Analogy fails.

Quote
I believe you cannot see God but you can know He is there by the effects He has on people and your experiences. I have experiences of God all the time.

Those "effects" have alternatvive explanations.  You believe theyre due to a god because that's what you WANT to believe.

Quote
Have you experienced fellowship with loving Godly Christians? if not then how can you say what the experience is like. It is nothing like the feeling of false hope (such as your lottery example).

Did you experience the joys of waiting for Santa when you were a child?  Does that offer proof that he existed?

Or on a more serious note, have you ever read the correspondence between the 9/11 hijackers leading up to that fateful day?  They were ecstatic  over what they were about to do and how they were going to soon be with Allah.

Have yopu ever seen videos of the Jonestown massacre, the interviews prior to them drinking the kool-aid?  Ever seen footage of teh Heaven's gate cult prior to their mass-suicide?

When you fully convince yourself something wonderful is going to happen, no matter how ridiculous, you feel pretty wonderful.  Doesnt offer any proof or evidence.

There's plenty of happiness out there without your god-belief, laxbro.  time to wake up.  the emperor has no clothes.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: luisveras on December 12, 2010, 12:10:59 AM
I cannot prove there is a God 100% just like you cannot prove there is not a God 100%.

The burden of proof relies on the person that says that X exists, not on the person that says that it doesn't. You cannot "prove" that something "doesn't exist" if there no trace of said thing in existance. Can you prove that there are no lepprechauns? Can you prove that there are no mermaids? Can you prove that there are no unicorns? So, since you can't "prove that they don't exist", does that mean that they do exist?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: luisveras on December 12, 2010, 01:34:27 AM
I believe that God created the universe so large to show how small we really are and how great He is.

That is your rationalization. That is an 'excuse' you make up in an attempt to fit the pieces of 5,000 year old beliefs with modern science.

If you had read your Bible, you would see how your "perfect" God describes the process of creating the universe. Read Genesis 1:2, there it explains the universe as vast mass of water in every direction. Think of an eternal ocean with no sky. Then, in Genesis 1:6-7, he explains how he had to create a "firmament" to "separate the waters from the waters" (remember, the universe was all water), and he separated the water above from the water below the "firmament". The "firmament" is a firm structure (like a hard, fixed dome), needed to hold the water "above". This firmament is what is called heaven, see Genesis 1:8. That's how "perfect" and "all-knowing" God describes the universe. Nothing like we now know it is.

And it's not a methaphore, whoever wrote this book really thought the world had this structure (a dome inside a huge ocean, and earth inside the dome). Notice Genesis 7:11-12 when God "opened the windows of heaven" (remember Genesis 1:8 heaven=firmament) to flood the earth from the water above. Whoever wrote this book really did think that water from "above the firmament" was used to flood the earth. In other words, they believed that if you flied to the skies you would eventually bump into a hard dome, which holds water above it. This is clearly the mind of a primitive human being that did not know what you and I now know of the structure of the universe. If the bible was truly the "word of God", don't you think it wouldn't have these ridiculous mistakes?

If, like you said, God wanted to "create the universe so large to show how small we really are and how great he is", don't you think he would have correctly described the insignificance of planet earth within the vastness of the universe in his book?

Again, this excuse that you are now using, is something Christians had to invent in the last couple hundred of years to cope with the fact that science has consistently and progresively proven most parts of the Bible to be completely wrong. But if you go back in time before Galileo started discovering the true size of the universe, and this 'excuse' was not part of the Christian dogma. This excuse is an invention of man of recent times.

But what started the big bang? E=mc^2 so matter comes from energy, but where does energy come from. At some point, something that wasn't had to come into existence. I see that "something" that started everything into motion as God.

That is a self-negating argument. If the following argument is correct: "anything that exists must be started and put into motion by something else", then in order for God to exist, he himself would have had to be created by some other God or creator. To that you will probably respond "but God was not created", and with that you are admiting that it is possible for something to "exist without being created". Therefore, the universe can exist without being created.

As you can see, the same logic you are trying to use to explain why there "must" be a God, is the very logic that proves that the universe can exist without having a need for a "creator".
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: luisveras on December 12, 2010, 02:27:15 AM
I believe you cannot see God but you can know He is there by the effects He has on people and your experiences. I have experiences of God all the time. Have you experienced fellowship with loving Godly Christians? if not then how can you say what the experience is like. It is nothing like the feeling of false hope (such as your lottery example).

Let me explain something to you. I really do believe you when you say you "feel" God, and have all these experiences of well being. I believe you, because I have had these experiences too. I felt them when I was a teenager, and had just spent an hour on the phone with my crush, and then just lie in bed imagining what it would be like to have her as my girlfriend, and I would review the conversation in my head, looking for hints that she liked me, and everytime I found a hint that she really did like me, I simply began floating and got excited about the fact that we would soon get together and become boyfriend and girlfriend. I also had a similar experience the first time I saw my favorite rock band on a stage. I was speechless, I felt an intense feeling through my body. I had goose bumps. I literally could not speak for the first five minutes after they came out. I was just about to cry like a little girl (just like those girls you see crying in old Michael Jackson concert footage). Another good example, for me, is Apollo 11 mission. Everytime I see a documentary about it, and see that video of Neil Armstrong steping onto the moon and saying those words, I have goosebumps just thinking about that great advance for humanity. It's intense! Oh, the list goes on, you get the idea.

What I'm trying to say here is that "feeling" you have that you think is God, is simply a series of biological and neurological functions acting up, when you believe you are in the presence of something great. That is common to every human being. That is why you feel that way when you pray to the christian God (because you believe you are in front of something great), but wouldn't feel it if you prayed to Buddha. Likewise, a muslim feels it when he prays to the muslim Allah (because he believes he's in front of something great), but wouldn't feel it if he prayed to Jesus. How do you think that dozens of other religions have been able to last several centuries, including the really primitive religions of the mayans and aztecs, which even Christians recognize to be extremely primitive? They all are able to last because the human body is capable of "feeling God", as long as they truly believe in what they are praying, or doing, or when feel they are in the presence of something great (like I felt when I was front row seeing my favorite rock band). As you can see, everyone "feels" this, regardless of who they are praying to, or who they admire or have strong feelings about. And there is one simple explanation: this "feeling" is caused by the human body itself, it's part of its biology and neurology. There's a whole science behind this (look it up). This "feeling" is not caused by "God", because, if it were, only followers of the christian religion (or whichever the "right" religion was) would feel it, and the rest wouldn't. But everyone feels it, that's why everyone else sticks by their religion throughout their lives, unless they attempt to rid themselves of all the barriers that tradition, authority and dogma have put onto them. Once you begin thinking on your own, without believing that someone is watching you, without feeling guilty that He might be offended and therefore punish you, without thinking you will let your mom down.... once you are able to do that, you will begin realizing all of the nonsense you used to believe.

I would suggest you read this page http://www.godisimaginary.com/i7.htm (http://www.godisimaginary.com/i7.htm) titled "Understanding religious delusion", and watch its accompanying video http://www.godisimaginary.com/video7.htm. (http://www.godisimaginary.com/video7.htm.) If you read this and see this video with a truly open mind, you should be able to build-up enough doubt to investigate a little further. Once you do, you will quickly realize what we already know, that believing in God is just as primitive and nonsensical as believing in Zeus.

Only then you will become a truly free human being. Best of luck!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: luisveras on December 12, 2010, 02:54:23 AM
Equations and science only deal with the what of the universe. How it works and so on. It cannot explain the whys of the universe. Science deals with what we can observe with our 5 senses. I believe there is something beyond the natural. Supernatural as it is called. God is supernatural so I cannot prove him with science. You would have to believe supernatural experiences are much more than just electric signals in your brain. All of this is the very reason I do not wish to argue the evidences of God because this is not the place to go into talks of the supernatural and not the audience that wants to hear it.

In reality, nothing is "Supernatural". Supernatural is a word used to describe a phenomenon you can't explain. The primitive man thought weather events (rain, storms, tornadoes, thunder) were all supernatural, so he prayed to his gods to protect his tribe from these "supernatural" events. The primitive man also thought shooting stars, eclipses and earthquakes were supernatural events. I'm sure the first primate that saw fire thought fire was supernatural, until he learned to control it.

You may call certain experiences 'supernatural' because you can't explain how they happen, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a logical and scientifically explainable reason for it. We may not have the scientific answer today for many unexplanable phenomenons, but history has consistently proven year after year, without fail, that everything that the primitive man once thought to be supernatural, it turned out to have a scientific explanation.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: luisveras on December 12, 2010, 03:25:14 AM
... I'm assuming no one here would desire a conversation that talk about something beyond science.

To a point, I think this is accurate.  The conversations we have tend to revolve around what is or is not fact.  The best way people have to discover this is the scientific method.  So whether the topic of discussion is religion, science, politics or chocolate chip cookies, I think at some point, whatever your opinion, you will be asked, "how do you know?" which leads back to science.

I believe it's important to point out that when we say science, we're mainly talking about using the scientific method. I think it's important to mention this, because sometimes, when someone says 'science' people start thinking of NASA, Microsoft, biology and Albert Einstein. But science, or rather, the scientific method is something much more simpler than that. It's simply observing a phenomenon, gather data from the observation, then develop a hypothesis as to why the phenomenon occurs, and then perform experiments trying to duplicate the phenomenon, attempting to prove or disprove the hypothesis, with the eventual result (after many trials and errors) to determine what causes the phenomenon, and then establishing a theory or law around your observations.

From that point of view, if God did exist, we would be able to prove it with science (again, "science" doesn't mean with the help of a rocket scientist, but the use of the scientific method). For example, let's say the hypothesis is "God exists, and he allows his son Jesus to answer some of their follower's prayers". Then, we ask how can we prove that Jesus is answering prayers? And we then determine a good experiment to be to compare the average % of cancer survivors, with the average % of cancer survivors that prayed to him. Then, we make a list of 1,000 non christians with cancer, and get another 1,000 cancer patients that believe in Jesus (we have to make sure they are faithful practicing christians, that pray every day). Once we make the list, we would observe over the next few months/years, and see the survival rate of one group (non christians) and the other group (praying christians). If God exists and he allows Jesus to answer prayers, then the group of christians would have a much higher % rate of cancer survival than the other, non-praying group. If this were to occur, you would have just proven that God existed scientifically (i.e. using the scientific method).

So, as silly as it may sound, if God did exist, we would undoubtedly be able to prove it scientifically, with experiments like the one above, or many other similar scientific observations.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on December 12, 2010, 09:11:17 AM
Louis:
Quote
If God exists and he allows Jesus to answer prayers, then the group of christians would have a much higher % rate of cancer survival than the other, non-praying group. If this were to occur, you would have just proven that God existed scientifically (i.e. using the scientific method).

You may actually have proven that prayer helps (even if there is no God, Allah, etc,).
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_020 on December 12, 2010, 09:45:55 AM
I believe it's important to point out that when we say science, we're mainly talking about using the scientific method.

That you for articulating what I meant, luisveras.

020
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on December 12, 2010, 03:33:33 PM
Quote from: modbreak
unecessary quotes removed  -020

No one else has had a problem because no one else is the minority. And my alternative would be a face to face talk, but that won't happen unless you talk to a Christian you know and trust personally.

I have already admitted that I cannot attempt to explain why I believe God exists without going beyond science and I'm assuming no one here would desire a conversation that talk about something beyond science.

more excuses and of course you won't take us up on the offer. That would open you up for actually having to discuss something and not whining how much of a "minority" you are.  Sorry, again, that hasn't been a problem before.  You before said that you can discuss the scientific evidences for god but the forum wasn't good for that, and now you say that you *have* to go beyond science.  Which is it?  Or is it anything you can think of so you don't have to actually defend your baseless claims?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: laxbro on December 12, 2010, 05:53:30 PM
Quote from: modbreak
unnecessary quotes removed  -020

more excuses and of course you won't take us up on the offer. That would open you up for actually having to discuss something and not whining how much of a "minority" you are.  Sorry, again, that hasn't been a problem before.  You before said that you can discuss the scientific evidences for god but the forum wasn't good for that, and now you say that you *have* to go beyond science.  Which is it?  Or is it anything you can think of so you don't have to actually defend your baseless claims?

I was writing something up to explain my beliefs in a summary of full, but haven't finished it cause I'm studying for finals and not sure whether it would even be beneficial to post it anyway.

I'm sorry for "whining" as you called it. Cause one post saying I'm a minority in this forum is clearly whining. You have the choice not to read anything I post.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 12, 2010, 06:03:19 PM
LAX what are youu in school for? quit and pray if god works for you it will all get figured out in the end. Why seek any education at all,with god on your side you can't fail what you do in life.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: GamerGirl on December 12, 2010, 06:27:07 PM
^ Hey, Christians (or any other religious believer) should be encouraged to go to school[1].  Not discouraged.  College was an essential part of me calling myself "theist" rather than "Christian". 

 1. (I imagine he meant studying for college finals)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_020 on December 12, 2010, 06:48:44 PM
Everyone,

If we could all please cut down on the nested quoting, I would very much appreciate it, as would your fellow forum members.

Happy posting
020
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: luisveras on December 12, 2010, 06:57:21 PM
Moderator, when you say "nested quoting" do you mean any quoting at all, or are you talking about 2nd and 3rd level quoting? (Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm new around here)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 13, 2010, 04:09:08 AM
Moderator, when you say "nested quoting" do you mean any quoting at all, or are you talking about 2nd and 3rd level quoting? (Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm new around here)

I believe he/she/it/not-sure-but-will-not-conform-to-your-sterotypes means 2nd to 3rd level quoting which just clutters up the page.  Sort of quoting a whole essay's worth of a post simple to respond to one point.

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Operator_020 on December 13, 2010, 08:43:14 AM
Hi luisveras,

Moderator, when you say "nested quoting" do you mean any quoting at all, or are you talking about 2nd and 3rd level quoting? (Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm new around here)

It is not a dumb question.  2nd and 3rd level quoting is exactly what I mean.  If you would just quote the part that is pertinent to your reply, it makes reading posts easier.  Have you read the quoting FAQ (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0)?


I believe he/she/it/not-sure-but-will-not-conform-to-your-sterotypes

See right below Karma?  It says "Gender".  Mine is a circle with an arrow pointing up.  It symbolizes my big, fat, erect... spear.  The circle symbolizes a shield.  Together they represent Mars, the god of war and thus, masculinity.  020 is a man, baby. 

Happy posting
020
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: gonegolfing on December 13, 2010, 09:25:32 AM
This thread needs a musical interlude with evidence to back up Positiveaob

Quote from: modbreak
No, it really doesn't.  Though I do love SRV, please let's keep the conversation on topic.  Thanks.
020
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Doctor X on December 13, 2010, 09:37:38 AM
See right below Karma?  It says "Gender".  Mine is a circle with an arrow pointing up.  It symbolizes my big, fat, erect... spear.  The circle symbolizes a shield.  Together they represent Mars, the god of war and thus, masculinity.  020 is a man, baby.

Then explain all of the taffeta. . .

--J.D.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: shnozzola on December 13, 2010, 06:56:36 PM
Laxbro, I considered myself a christian for many years.  I picked the parts of the bible I believed and picked what I didn’t.  That is blaspheme to atheists – also known as SPAG – self projection as god, where you choose the “parts“ of god you believe in.
   I’m going to blather on here, so put me on ignore if you want.

   Over the years, I realized  the god I believed in got smaller and smaller.  For example, I went through a long period where ‘”everyone got saved.”  I couldn’t imagine the god I had constructed not excusing someone at the bitter end (death) and saying, oh go ahead, you only killed 10 men or 10 women, and you’ve truly changed, and blah blah blah, and heaven got more and more  crowded, and heaven -? – what the hell is heaven anyway, a place where all good spirits go to spend a blissfull eternity with god ? – I had rejected that idea long ago.  I had also early on rejected the idea that any sort of resurrection took place, putting the importance of that belief beside born again BS, or god against homosexuality, or abortion, or any of a long list of baggage that fundamentalists of all degrees heap upon people.  For a long time my christianity had few of the core beliefs that christians would say are “required.”

   Enter Osama and the Taliban, spreading their we are right- join us- happy god views from the fiery cockpits of jet liners.  So I found THIS website where it suddenly seemed obvious that the shiites ,and the sunnis, and the 34,000 denominations of christianity, the jews, the satan worshippers, (funny that  MS Word  automatically capitalizes satan), the Romans, the Greeks, Hindus, etc. all are probably wrong – there is no god, never was.

   The more you think about it, the fact that we exist without a “god,” is a pretty cool random experiment this planet is putting on, although as important as we think we are, we’re not.
So, above all, have fun, eat a lot of fruit - and be kinder to people than they deserve.  Atheists here just want people to critically think before they except all the nonsense that millions with opposing views are all so sure of.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 07, 2011, 03:28:36 PM
Actually, miracles still happen. Ill tell you how to have your prayers answered at the bottom of my response.

Man's voice is cured on live audio  http://jeffleake.typepad.com/the_launchpad/2011/04/the-duane-miller-recording.html

That was someone I do not know. Things have happened to me personally - none of which do I expect you to believe, but I will detail a few below:
Working for my first company out of electrical engineering undergrad, I was asked for help with a harddrive (hdd) that had just died. Apparently the office manage had put alot of important info on it and never backed it up. He came to me and asked if I could help, he said he and one other computer tech already tried everything they knew and couldnt do it. I told him if they couldnt then I doubt there was anything i could do. I popped it into my computer desktop and turned it on. The hdd was not spinning up. I tried a few things but still nothing, shut it down and started up the computer a few more times, still nothing. i told him sorry. so he and the two other people left my desk. the hdd was still there. i prayed to God something like "God this hdd really means next to nothing to me, but if you would somehow make it work, then Ill tell everyone that I prayed to you and you made it work. " So after that, i start up the computer, and honestly to my surprise, it started working fine. I dumped all the data from it to the network for backup. Turned it off, turned it back on and it still worked. I turned it off again and went to his office. He wasnt there. I went to the company presidents office, he and all the vice pres were in there with the pres talking about things. I told them that i had just dumped the data for them. they were all silent and then the office manager asked well how did you do it. i told them all, i didnt do anything, I prayed to God, and it suddenly started working. they all looked at me like i was crazy. but that is what happend. that was in 2002.

One night i was watching my brothers wrestling match. they happened to not be wrestling this second, so i was just sitting there with my parents watching a different match. then i get this really wierd feeling to "just have faith" over and over i have that feeling. im not hearing words, but that is what is running through my mind. i have no idea why. and it was a total crazy feeling. this match im watching is surprisingly at the end of the match. i must have missed something because i thought it had jsut started. so anyways im watching this guy on the right do a quick single leg takedown to the guy on the left. he gets on his back and gets 2 points. the buzzer goes off and he wins. then i have no idea what happend but im suddenly watching this match right where i left off, in the first few seconds of the first part of it like no time had elapsed. im floored. i look at my dad and tell him i just saw this match, the guy on the right wins with a single leg takedown. that crazy feeling of "just have faith" keeps pooring over me. i sit there unable to think about anything else, watching the entire match. about 10 seconds til the end but the match is tied. this didnt look like it was going to end like i thought. then the guy on the left does a double leg takedown to the guy on the right. the crowd cheers but the ref calls out of bounds/clock stop. the crowd boos. the guys get back on their feet and the ref starts them again, and then the guy on the right does a single leg just as i had seen, gets his two points, and wins, all as i had just seen about 5 minutes earlier. i had been praying to god all that week for just a simple peek at what the bible prophets went through. i guess it was something like that. my dad looked at me kinda surprised but said nothing.

on one of our very long trips cross country by car to see my grandparents, i was bored and pondering the universe. i was about 12. i thought to myself if there is a God, why hasnt he introduced himself? So I prayed something like "God, I think you are real but You never talk to me. I worry that I may be wrong about the bible. If You are real, if You created all that there is and ever was and ever will be, all powerful, everywhere at once, all knowing, "I AM", then would you please just say hi to me, this simple little kid. Please God, just say hi. Then when the other kids at school bother me about why I believe, I can tell them that you said Hi to me." I opened my eyes. I listened hard. Nothing. Then i noticed, looking out the window in the distance, there was this giant Paul Bunyan statue that had a cloud over it like in the cartoons for it to "say" things. This time it simply said "Hello". I had see that thing as we drove by at least on three other occasions and 5 other occaisions since thing, it always had something like "$5.00 for all you can eat". It never said "Hello". Except this one time. This one time when the creator of all, all powerful, everywhere, all knowing, said "Hi" to me.

many things have happened. these are just a few. The secret to prayer that oddly few people know, is that  it must be selfiess and for the Gl;ory of God. if what you want to happen is for your personal gain, then likely the prayer will not be answered. its as simple as that. Everything you do, do it for the glory of God.



Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

Yes many miracles happen in the Bible. Miracles that if they happened today would be proof that magic, including the possibility of divine intervention, was a real force in the world.

Similarly the Quaran has similar claims, as does the Iliad, as does the Books of the Dead, as does the Arthurian Legends, as does Aesop's Fables, and Grimm's Faerie Tales.

However, none of these unambiguous miracles occur in an age where people can check on wether or not they actually happened. Magic seems conspicuously absent in the presence of TV cameras; Divine intervention shies aways from being scientifically tested.

So just because it happened in a book isn't a convincing argument. WWGHA is a shorthand way of asking, since people purport God to do wondrous things even in the here and now and we are to bow are heads in praise for these blessings...why does the unambiguous miracle no longer occur? Specifically, in all the hospitals, in all the world, in the past 100 years, has not one amputee been healed through prayer? Why didn't Manna not fallen from heaven for the Jews starving to death in concentration camps? Why couldn't a Minister raise his hand and calmed the storm before the Tsunami near Sumatra? Why couldn't a priest part the waters in New Orleans during Katrina?

The conclusion is obvious, the stories of magic in the past are made up. Thus we need to treat those stories as unreliable sources of information. If they are unreliable on such tangible this such as 40 years of Wandering in a tiny desert...how much more unreliable are they when claiming things that cannot even be detected, like an afterlife?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 07, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Hey jdcpe17, personal experience is a factor eh?

Is this yours? http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/ (http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/)


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on July 07, 2011, 03:59:19 PM
Tiptoeing in risking the charge of reviving dead threads....but if someone is reading this:

A malfunctioning computer starts working. A sign on a restaurant has "hello" on it. A wrestler wins a match. The examples you give of "miracles" are certainly within the realm of normal possibility and easily explained. Not to mention trivial and only of interest to you alone or at most a few people. 

However, suppose these events really were miracles. How do you know who was responsible? Could be Zeus, Ishtar, Satan, Yoda, Dumbledore, Santa or any other magical figure. If you believe in one, why not all the others?

And the secret of getting prayers answered seems highly bogus. Why are you so special as to merit personal attention from god, when people who are really in trouble don't get any magical sh!t when they pray? Don't you think millions of people have prayed very sincerely for a child with a severed spinal cord to be able to walk or for a friend with brain damage to be cured? For the plane, train, bus or car to not have crashed. And it does not happen.

You must only ask for something that is not really magical, important or hard to do-- and make sure it is something that could happen anyway without god's help. Pray for a good parking space or to find your keys or to get a big raise. Pray for your team to win the pennant or for that certain person to ask you to the prom. God, Satan, Santa or Ishtar might just grant your wish. Or not.

But people who pray for world peace, to save all children suffering from starvation or for a cure for cancer should expect nothing. They are just being selfish, and no doubt aren't praying the right way. So eff 'em... &)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 07, 2011, 08:34:16 PM
:)why won't God heal amputees?
If you ask, let me ask, why should He.  Why should God answer your prayers? Do you believe everything that is written in the bible?
In Matthew 12:39 Jesus said "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it. Except sign of the prophet Jonah"  (Jesus was crucified and resurrected in 3 days)
Just close your eyes and think about this verse.  What do you think?
I want to tell every one of you that Jesus died for us to save us, just believe and be saved!
Please don't face God's horrible judgement. You won't be excused even if you say "I did not believe because God did not heal amputees"
I am telling you again "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
In Christ there is no condemnation.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 07, 2011, 08:50:51 PM
Very disrespectful. Who raised you?

You agreed to abide by forum rules when you signed up, then make your first post a direct violation of that agreement?   

You will show respect to other adults, and you will demonstrate some integrity and honesty. If you can't bring yourself to this behaviour on your own, your warning level will increase up to a point where another adult will have to screen your posts to make sure you comport yourself with a minimum degree of integrity.

You can inititiate a recovery by citing the rule you broke, and apologizing for the error.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 07, 2011, 09:52:35 PM
And what's with all the necromancy lately...damn summer vacation and hell breaks loose around here.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 08, 2011, 08:06:52 AM
Hi jdcpe17

I am a moderator and I am here to help you.

I see you mentioned in another thread you are having trouble keeping up.  I recommend you stop posting in multiple threads.  Stick with one conversation at a time.  That way when you feel overwhelmed we will be more likely to be sympathetic.   

Follow these links for additional information:
Quoting FAQ and Users Guide (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,75.0.html)
Forum Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17005.0.html)

Regards,
Screwtape


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 09:37:43 AM
you missed it. what you pray for should not be for your earthly gain, it should always be in some way for the glory of God. if it is not, then it may not happen. keep that in mind, now read your own response.

Tiptoeing in risking the charge of reviving dead threads....but if someone is reading this:

A malfunctioning computer starts working. A sign on a restaurant has "hello" on it. A wrestler wins a match. The examples you give of "miracles" are certainly within the realm of normal possibility and easily explained. Not to mention trivial and only of interest to you alone or at most a few people. 

However, suppose these events really were miracles. How do you know who was responsible? Could be Zeus, Ishtar, Satan, Yoda, Dumbledore, Santa or any other magical figure. If you believe in one, why not all the others?

And the secret of getting prayers answered seems highly bogus. Why are you so special as to merit personal attention from god, when people who are really in trouble don't get any magical sh!t when they pray? Don't you think millions of people have prayed very sincerely for a child with a severed spinal cord to be able to walk or for a friend with brain damage to be cured? For the plane, train, bus or car to not have crashed. And it does not happen.

You must only ask for something that is not really magical, important or hard to do-- and make sure it is something that could happen anyway without god's help. Pray for a good parking space or to find your keys or to get a big raise. Pray for your team to win the pennant or for that certain person to ask you to the prom. God, Satan, Santa or Ishtar might just grant your wish. Or not.

But people who pray for world peace, to save all children suffering from starvation or for a cure for cancer should expect nothing. They are just being selfish, and no doubt aren't praying the right way. So eff 'em... &)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 09:39:35 AM
i had posted in this thread before anyone posted in the other thread. ive only posted in 2 threads thus far.

Hi jdcpe17

I am a moderator and I am here to help you.

I see you mentioned in another thread you are having trouble keeping up.  I recommend you stop posting in multiple threads.  Stick with one conversation at a time.  That way when you feel overwhelmed we will be more likely to be sympathetic.   

Follow these links for additional information:
Quoting FAQ and Users Guide (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,75.0.html)
Forum Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17005.0.html)

Regards,
Screwtape



Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 08, 2011, 09:43:19 AM
jdcpe17

You are not in trouble, so there is no need to explain yourself.  I am only giving you advice to help.  You are free to follow the advice or not. 

Regards,
Screwtape
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2011, 09:45:03 AM
you missed it. what you pray for should not be for your earthly gain, it should always be in some way for the glory of God. if it is not, then it may not happen. keep that in mind, now read your own response.

How are the 'miracles' you mentioned in your original posts not instances of earthly gain?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 09:47:31 AM
1) I am not talking about any other God besides Jesus. When I prayed, I prayed to Jesus and I said Jesus when I was praying.

2) I am not a catholic. I do not pray to dead people. Jesus was seen and heard by hundreds after He died.

3) Since I know who I am praying too, all other possible Gods are excluded.

4) I am not so special at all. I am just like you. You are just like me. I have selfishly prayed for things for me. Those were not answered. When I prayed for things to happen to Glorify God, then those things did happen.



Tiptoeing in risking the charge of reviving dead threads....but if someone is reading this:

A malfunctioning computer starts working. A sign on a restaurant has "hello" on it. A wrestler wins a match. The examples you give of "miracles" are certainly within the realm of normal possibility and easily explained. Not to mention trivial and only of interest to you alone or at most a few people. 

However, suppose these events really were miracles. How do you know who was responsible? Could be Zeus, Ishtar, Satan, Yoda, Dumbledore, Santa or any other magical figure. If you believe in one, why not all the others?

And the secret of getting prayers answered seems highly bogus. Why are you so special as to merit personal attention from god, when people who are really in trouble don't get any magical sh!t when they pray? Don't you think millions of people have prayed very sincerely for a child with a severed spinal cord to be able to walk or for a friend with brain damage to be cured? For the plane, train, bus or car to not have crashed. And it does not happen.

You must only ask for something that is not really magical, important or hard to do-- and make sure it is something that could happen anyway without god's help. Pray for a good parking space or to find your keys or to get a big raise. Pray for your team to win the pennant or for that certain person to ask you to the prom. God, Satan, Santa or Ishtar might just grant your wish. Or not.

But people who pray for world peace, to save all children suffering from starvation or for a cure for cancer should expect nothing. They are just being selfish, and no doubt aren't praying the right way. So eff 'em... &)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 09:51:15 AM
you missed it. what you pray for should not be for your earthly gain, it should always be in some way for the glory of God. if it is not, then it may not happen. keep that in mind, now read your own response.

How are the 'miracles' you mentioned in your original posts not instances of earthly gain?

Two of them I gained nothing earthly, but a deeper understanding of and relationship with God. No one here on earth could care. My bank account has not grown larger because of it.

The other one is kind of iffy, except that, I was able to make it known to MANY people what happend and why. the earthly gain is there for the company i work for, but in reality, work or not, my pay check stayed the same. And either way, ultimately it is up to the "Will of God" anyways. I was just simply giving personal examples of prayers heard and miracles that have occured. Again, you do not have to belive me. These things did happen as I said they did though.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 08, 2011, 09:54:31 AM
Hey jdcpe17, personal experience is a factor eh?

Is this yours? http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/ (http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 10:55:06 AM
Hey jdcpe17, personal experience is a factor eh?

Is this yours? http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/ (http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/)

Yea actually i remember it now. its been a long time.  probably not the best thing ive done with my time. probably not the worst thing ive done with my time either.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 08, 2011, 12:29:09 PM
you missed it. what you pray for should not be for your earthly gain, it should always be in some way for the glory of God. if it is not, then it may not happen. keep that in mind, now read your own response.
  We see all through the OT and NT prayers for “earthly gain”; prayers for winning battles, prayers for healing, etc.  So unless you want to claim that those folks in the OT and NT weren’t praying right and that God really didn’t answer them like the bible claims he did, you are stuck.  I’m sure you’ll try to redefine “earthly gain” now. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 08, 2011, 12:29:19 PM
Jesus was seen and heard by hundreds after He died.

Those are the allegations.  However, we have no conclusive evidence that this was the case.

3) Since I know who I am praying too, all other possible Gods are excluded.

Is it possible you were just ringing a phone, as it were, and another god picked up while the one you hoped to call was either out for a bite or was just a name written on a bathroom wall?

I am not so special at all. I am just like you. You are just like me.

You must be special.  You cannot be just like me. I have never had the omnipotent deity that created all Being grant my wishes.

The other one is kind of iffy, except that, I was able to make it known to MANY people what happend and why.

Ah, but could that not be said of any miracle?  In fact, that was the very reason jesus H did miracles[1] - to make people believe.  So if jesus H doing miracles to help people believe is okay and yhwh doing miracles for you or your loved ones to help people believe is okay, why not doing miracles for me when I needed one to believe?  That is the crux of the point of the question "why won't god heal amputees".  Your god does not appear to be consistent in his miracles, or he is completely consistent in ways that can only lead to certain conclusions.

He seems to randomly help you and many other xians in the US in incredibly trivial ways. But for starving african children, his miracles dry up every single time.  He helps people with ambiguous ailments.  But he never, ever regenerates a limb, makes a person younger, or restores mental faculties to alzheimers victims or the retared.  There are limited conclusions to come to that explain this.


These things did happen as I said they did though.

Is it possible that things did happen, but not for the reasons you think?
 1. allegedly
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 12:40:58 PM
Jesus was seen and heard by hundreds after He died.

Those are the allegations.  However, we have no conclusive evidence that this was the case.

3) Since I know who I am praying too, all other possible Gods are excluded.

Is it possible you were just ringing a phone, as it were, and another god picked up while the one you hoped to call was either out for a bite or was just a name written on a bathroom wall?

I am not so special at all. I am just like you. You are just like me.

You must be special.  You cannot be just like me. I have never had the omnipotent deity that created all Being grant my wishes.

The other one is kind of iffy, except that, I was able to make it known to MANY people what happend and why.

Ah, but could that not be said of any miracle?  In fact, that was the very reason jesus H did miracles[1] - to make people believe.  So if jesus H doing miracles to help people believe is okay and yhwh doing miracles for you or your loved ones to help people believe is okay, why not doing miracles for me when I needed one to believe?  That is the crux of the point of the question "why won't god heal amputees".  Your god does not appear to be consistent in his miracles, or he is completely consistent in ways that can only lead to certain conclusions.

He seems to randomly help you and many other xians in the US in incredibly trivial ways. But for starving african children, his miracles dry up every single time.  He helps people with ambiguous ailments.  But he never, ever regenerates a limb, makes a person younger, or restores mental faculties to alzheimers victims or the retared.  There are limited conclusions to come to that explain this.


These things did happen as I said they did though.

Is it possible that things did happen, but not for the reasons you think?
 1. allegedly

if the phone was ringing and God X created a copied cell phone sim card and stuck it in his phone to pick up on my call to God Y, then... well... we are are talking about a pluarality of Gods. who knows, maybe that is the case. But assuming the Bible is true, then there is only one God. not a bunch of other gods running around trying to do things for some other god that doesnt exist, in that gods name that doesnt exist, for the glory of only the non-existant god.


"allegedly" hahah... looking at your "[1]" ref point haha... ok sorry. i just thought that was funny.
a hem... um... so to answer your questions...

Is there anything that I may be so humble as to say a prayer for you? If it happens you must promise to post on here. No wait. that would be basically a test of God. Ok. Post on here or not, can I say a prayer for you? Tell me about your life.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 08, 2011, 01:20:31 PM
Hey jdcpe17, personal experience is a factor eh?

Is this yours? http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/ (http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/)

Yea actually i remember it now. its been a long time.  probably not the best thing ive done with my time. probably not the worst thing ive done with my time either.

Ok. So you acted in, produced, and sold pornography online. Clears up the personal experience stuff for me. Thanks.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 01:29:36 PM
Hey jdcpe17, personal experience is a factor eh?

Is this yours? http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/ (http://medskobook.onlinewebshop.net/)

Yea actually i remember it now. its been a long time.  probably not the best thing ive done with my time. probably not the worst thing ive done with my time either.

Ok. So you acted in, produced, and sold pornography online. Clears up the personal experience stuff for me. Thanks.

and using my past mistakes as your reason to not believe in God makes sense.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2011, 01:41:16 PM
and using my past mistakes as your reason to not believe in God makes sense.

I must've missed the part where Ambassador Pony said that.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 08, 2011, 01:54:05 PM
and using my past mistakes as your reason to not believe in God makes sense.

Oh, I forgot I said that. Can you quote where I claimed that please? Thanks.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 08, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
if the phone was ringing and God X created a copied cell phone sim card and stuck it in his phone to pick up on my call to God Y, then... well... we are are talking about a pluarality of Gods. who knows, maybe that is the case.

Do we have any reason to dismiss a plurality of gods?  I mean, as long as we are going in for one god, what is keeping us from a whole metropolis of gods?  Afterall, most ancient cultures were polytheistic.  Even the hebrews. 

Did you know that?  yhwh was just part of a pantheon called Elohim.  Elohim is plural for "the lords".  Not coincidentally, that is also a name of a god in the bible. In most translations where you see "the Lord", the actual word there is Elohim.  Many uninformed people nowadays think that is just another name for yhwh, but it isn't.  It is a different god. 

Anyway, back to the Elohim.  the principle god of that pantheon was El.  yhwh was one of his sons.  Baal was one, and yhwh's wife was Ashtoreth or Ashera, I forget which.  The hebrews were "monolatrous".  That means they believed many gods existed, but only worshiped one.  Thus yhwh refers to "us" several times in genesis.  Thus the commandment "you shall have no other gods before me."  Even yhwh knew there were other gods.

But assuming the Bible is true, then there is only one God.

That is a big assumption to make.  But let's make the assumption the bible is true.  But which part of the bible?  The parts written before the babylonian exile indicate many gods.  the parts written during or after indicate only one god.  Both cannot be correct.  So which do we go with?

 
"allegedly" hahah... looking at your "[1]" ref point haha... ok sorry. i just thought that was funny.
a hem... um... so to answer your questions...

Yes, I am hilariously funny.  I know.  It is just one reason why I am constantly surrounded by hot chicks.

Post on here or not, can I say a prayer for you? Tell me about your life.

My life is terrific.  You do not need my permission to pray for me.  But here is the thing: what is the difference between a prayer and a spell?


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 08, 2011, 04:15:37 PM
Actually, miracles still happen. Ill tell you how to have your prayers answered at the bottom of my response.

Man's voice is cured on live audio  http://jeffleake.typepad.com/the_launchpad/2011/04/the-duane-miller-recording.html

That was someone I do not know.

Nor is it something unambiguous. Feigned or pschosomatic voice issues are quite commonplace.

You fail to understand why we ask for modern and unambiguous, objectively verified examples.




 Things have happened to me personally - none of which do I expect you to believe,

That is correct, we do not believe. We are not credulous. Simply provide us with evidence that cannot be faked, and we will believe. It is that simple.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Tykster on July 09, 2011, 09:56:11 AM
But here is the thing: what is the difference between a prayer and a spell?

I know this one !

A prayer asks, a spell commands. Same result though.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 10, 2011, 08:52:30 AM
Thank you Tykster, but I was hoping jd would come to the conclusion on her own.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 09:53:04 PM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?
Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 10, 2011, 09:55:45 PM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?

Then he is not benevolent.

Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?

Then he is a prick for not thinking about others' well being while moving towards whatever goal he might have.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 10, 2011, 10:00:24 PM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?
Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?
Jews who accept God but NOT Jesus because he is a false messiah,what happens to them?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on July 10, 2011, 10:04:39 PM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?
Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?

Who are you, one of the many puny humans in this planet, to say what your god's plan is, assuming it exists?

Better question: Why are you so selfish? Why don't you like amputees? Did they wrong you?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:18:17 PM
I am sorry I have totally nothing against amputees.
I was just saying according to my God saving people's soul is way more important that showing off His miracles.
My God showed so many miracles about 2000 years ago, but people still killed Him. But He resurrected in 3 days
If you are interested I can tell you how to obtain eternal life in heaven.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 10, 2011, 10:20:04 PM
If you are interested I can tell you how to obtain eternal life in heaven.

Sorry, heaven's not worth the eternal life thing. Especially with a god such as yours.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:28:01 PM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?
Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?
Jews who accept God but NOT Jesus because he is a false messiah,what happens to them?
Bible says  Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(john 14:6)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:31:09 PM
If you are interested I can tell you how to obtain eternal life in heaven.

Sorry, heaven's not worth the eternal life thing. Especially with a god such as yours.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,(Hebrews 9 :27)
You be the judge what this means
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 10, 2011, 10:32:54 PM
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,(Hebrews 9 :27)
You be the judge what this means

It means someone made some stuff up and now you believe it. Simple.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:33:45 PM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?

Then he is not benevolent.

Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?

Then he is a prick for not thinking about others' well being while moving towards whatever goal he might have.
He does care about you that's why He died for you for your sin so He can save you and give you eternal life in heaven
all you have to do is believe.  That's His goal
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:35:44 PM
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,(Hebrews 9 :27)
You be the judge what this means

It means someone made some stuff up and now you believe it. Simple.
Very simple. It is your choice heaven or hell eternally.
and you do not have to believe me that is the beauty of it
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 10, 2011, 10:36:35 PM
He does care about you that's why He died for you for your sin so He can save you and give you eternal life in heaven
all you have to do is believe.  That's His goal

Heard that one before. If your god wants me to worship him, and will send me to hell if I don't, by my definition he is not worthy of worship.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 10, 2011, 10:38:39 PM
Very simple. It is your choice heaven or hell eternally.
and you do not have to believe me that is the beauty of it

I choose hell, simply because of your previous post.
Your god amounts to little more than a bratty child who wants everyone to recognize how "special" he is.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 10, 2011, 10:39:53 PM
I was just saying according to my God saving people's soul is way more important that showing off His miracles.

When you say saving people's souls is way more important, you make it sound like God is some sort of business man, always looking at his watch and thinking 'work, work, work, it's all I ever do. I ain't got time to fix everything!'.  This is God we are talking about here.  He can do anything, be anywhere at any time, right?  Unless you see God as some sort of regular human being with time schedules to keep and playdates to make, then you're 'he's to busy to worry about amputees' excuse is really pretty lame.  And it doesn't answer the question. 

If God is willing to heal amputees, but unable, then he is not omnipotent.
If God is able to heal amputees, but unwilling, then he is malevolent.
If God is both able and willing to heal amputees, then why do we still have amputees? 
If God is both unable and unwilling to heal amputees, then why call him God? 

Epicurus with a twist. 

The other possibility is that God isn't real, and amputees don't get healed because there is no God to heal them. 

My God showed so many miracles about 2000 years ago, but people still killed Him. But He resurrected in 3 days

So you're saying he was less into saving souls back then and more into cool parlor tricks?  Or was he just a lot less busy back then?  Not as much stuff on his plate and all that? 

If you are interested I can tell you how to obtain eternal life in heaven.

When you say that to people and they roll their eyes, is the sheer sarcasm of the action lost on you? 

He does care about you that's why He died for you for your sin so He can save you and give you eternal life in heaven
all you have to do is believe.  That's His goal

If Gods goal is to have us believe in him so we can go to heaven, and seeing as he is omnipotent and omniscient, wouldn't God know exactly what I would need to see in order to believe in Him?  And since he is not doing that, wouldn't that make your statement here completely void of logic? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:48:05 PM
I was just saying according to my God saving people's soul is way more important that showing off His miracles.

When you say saving people's souls is way more important, you make it sound like God is some sort of business man, always looking at his watch and thinking 'work, work, work, it's all I ever do. I ain't got time to fix everything!'.  This is God we are talking about here.  He can do anything, be anywhere at any time, right?  Unless you see God as some sort of regular human being with time schedules to keep and playdates to make, then you're 'he's to busy to worry about amputees' excuse is really pretty lame.  And it doesn't answer the question. 

If God is willing to heal amputees, but unable, then he is not omnipotent.
If God is able to heal amputees, but unwilling, then he is malevolent.
If God is both able and willing to heal amputees, then why do we still have amputees? 
If God is both unable and unwilling to heal amputees, then why call him God? 

Epicurus with a twist. 

The other possibility is that God isn't real, and amputees don't get healed because there is no God to heal them. 

My God showed so many miracles about 2000 years ago, but people still killed Him. But He resurrected in 3 days

So you're saying he was less into saving souls back then and more into cool parlor tricks?  Or was he just a lot less busy back then?  Not as much stuff on his plate and all that? 

If you are interested I can tell you how to obtain eternal life in heaven.

When you say that to people and they roll their eyes, is the sheer sarcasm of the action lost on you? 

He does care about you that's why He died for you for your sin so He can save you and give you eternal life in heaven
all you have to do is believe.  That's His goal

If Gods goal is to have us believe in him so we can go to heaven, and seeing as he is omnipotent and omniscient, wouldn't God know exactly what I would need to see in order to believe in Him?  And since he is not doing that, wouldn't that make your statement here completely void of logic? 
First off do you believe the words in bible? if so I will explain if not I have nothing to say to impress you because no matter what I say I know you won't believe
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:49:10 PM
I have to go bed
see ya all tomorrow
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 10, 2011, 10:50:48 PM
First off do you believe the words in bible? if so I will explain if not I have nothing to say to impress you because no matter what I say I know you won't believe

That is meaningless. The logical argument posted takes into account the texts of the Bible. If you believe in the Bible as being 100% true then there's only four logical choices for what your god is like:

Evil
Not omnipotent
Not a god
Non-existent

PS: Since you have to go to bed, this will be my last reply, as I am leaving for a week.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2011, 10:53:48 PM
He does care about you that's why He died for you for your sin so He can save you and give you eternal life in heaven
all you have to do is believe.  That's His goal

Heard that one before. If your god wants me to worship him, and will send me to hell if I don't, by my definition he is not worthy of worship.
Even if He died for you?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 10, 2011, 10:56:00 PM
Even if He died for you?

Especially if that's true. If that's true, he came here specifically to die so that more people would worship him, after being "freed from sin" or whatever.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 10, 2011, 11:13:10 PM
First off do you believe the words in bible? if so I will explain if not I have nothing to say to impress you because no matter what I say I know you won't believe

No. I don't believe the words in the bible.  But your statement about not being able to impress upon me is completely untrue and I will explain why. If everything you say is true, then you should be able to find some way, somehow, to prove what you say is true externally from the bible, right?  If you can, then I am completely open to that.  I may not believe the bible, but that doesn't mean I can't judge claims to be true or false by means of comparing and contrasting your claims with the world that presents itself.  I believe lots of things are true and lots of things are false, so contrary to what you may think, I am able to be convinced of things.  Give me what you have that is evidence from outside a single book, and I will hear it. 

I mean, just to be fair, if you saw a book that I wrote claiming something like....  the sky is blue because the leprechauns colored it that way...  Would you instantly believe that claim without me being able to provide you with some sort of external evidence for it?  Probably not, right?  Is it wrong to suggest that I should be able to back up those claims with real world evidence before accepting it just because I say you should?   

What YOU are saying, however, is for me to do exactly that.  You just want me to listen to what the bible says as if it was true and forget about how nonsensical the whole thing is... just believe it.  Well, imagine I, the author of the blue sky leprechaun book said that to you, what would you say to me?  You'd probably laugh your ass off (much like I tend to do with people say stuff like you just said to me), and I wouldn't blame you.   

Where does that go wrong for you?  I'm trying very hard not to be a dick here, but you're not making it easy.   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 10, 2011, 11:23:42 PM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?
Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?
Jews who accept God but NOT Jesus because he is a false messiah,what happens to them?
Bible says  Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(john 14:6)
So the Jew who does not believe in Jesus(he reached only a small number of people) are doomed? not to mention he left people who NEVER even met him write about him,getting facts wrong and contradicting each other.  Then there are the facts that no real historian ever heard of this clown Jesus.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 10, 2011, 11:26:15 PM
Jeff PT not to mention the Koran and the book of Mormon are "god inspired" books that followed the NT but are easly dismissed by the "true belivers"
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 07:43:37 AM
Jeff. very good example.
I have an example for you too. If you made this highly sophisticated humanoid.
This humanoid loves you and you loved it.
but this humanoid disobeyed you and did something terrible that it needs to be destroyed by some kind of federal law or something.
And you didn't want that to happen so you gave up something that is the most important in you life(you pick it!) and save this humanoid. Happy ending?
But now problem begins, this humanoid will not stop doing this bad things, so you tell him to stop and he says "no. by the way. who are you? telling me what to do? I will do whatever I want to do" and you tell him "I made you and I had to sacrificed my most precious to save you, just to save you"
And he says "oh ya I don't believe it. by the way if your my creator, prove it. I have my buddy humanoid that just lost his toe, you make it regrow, then I will believe you.  So you did it but he still won't believe.
Here are miracles my lord performed about 2000 years ago and people still did't believe.
1. turning water into wine John 2:1
2. many healings luke 1:32
3. Cleansing a Leper Matt 8:1
4. Healing roman centurians slave Matt 8:5
5. Healing Peter's mother in law Matt 8:14
6. Calming the storm Matt 8:23
7:driving out deamons near the tombs Matt 8:28
8. Healing a paralytic Matt 9:1
9. Healing the woman with the issue of blood Matt 9 20
10. Raising Jairus' daughter from dead matt 9 23
11. Healing two blind men Matt 9 27
12. Healing a demon posessed mute man matt 12 10
13. Healing a man with a paralyzed hand matt 12 22
14. feeding the 5000 matt 14 15
15. Walking on water matt 14 22
16. Healing the gentile mother's daughter matt 15 21
17. feeding 4000 matt 15 32
18. healing the epileptic boy matt 17 14
19. cursing the fig tree matt 21 18
20. healing demon poss man in the synagogue mark 1 23
21. healing the deaf mute mark 7:31
22. healing the blind man at Bethesda Mark 8:22
23. healing the blind at Jericho mark 10:46
24. a miraculous catch of fish luke 5:4
25. A widow's son raised to life Luke 7:11
26. Healing a disabled woman Luke 13:11
27. Healing a man with edema Luke 14:1
28. healing 10 lepers Luke 17:1
29. Healing Malchus's ear luke 22:50
30. Healing an officials son John 4:46
31. Healing the lame man at the Bethesda pool Lu 5:1
32. Healing a man born blind John 9:1
33. Raising Lazerus from the dead Luke 11:38
34. A second miraculous catch of fish Luke 21:1
That is a heck a lot of healings. And phrasees still asks for more. So my Lord said 
"A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Matthew12:39)
Thank you for reading
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 11, 2011, 07:56:34 AM
What if God doesn't want to heal amputees?
Because it has got nothing to do with His plan such as salvation?

You are missing the point of the question, John. 

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 11, 2011, 08:11:38 AM
Jeff. very good example.
I have an example for you too. If you made this highly sophisticated humanoid.
This humanoid loves you and you loved it.
but this humanoid disobeyed you and did something terrible that it needs to be destroyed by some kind of federal law or something.

Bad analogy John.  In your little story here, I am not responsible for federal law.  I cannot control federal law.  It is beyond me.  Howeven, in the little story in the bible, your god, yhwh is responsible for the law.  If yhwh is an omnimax god[1], then it made the rules.

Also, If I were to make a "person", I would make it so it could not do terrible things.  And I am just a mortal man of limited power.  So the question is, if yhwh, being omnimax, wanted a man to be obedient, why did he not make it so?


Here are miracles my lord performed about 2000 years ago and people still did't believe.

You act as if we are being petulant about it.  Do you believe the Roman emperor Vespasian performed miracles?  How about Mohammed?  Or [wiki]Sai Baba of Shirdi[/wiki]?  If not, why not? 
 1. omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 11, 2011, 08:13:00 AM
John 3 16,

JeffPT wrote a post that contained a clear point, and various questions for you.

Does he deserve having his point understood and his questions answered before you go on to your own point?

It looks to me like you either:

1) did not read his post
2) did not understand his point.

Advice: When responding to someone, take the time to first paraphrase her or his points and questions to confirm that you understood what they tried to get across to you. This will save you a lot of time and effort if it is clear you did not undersand what it is they were trying to convey.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 11, 2011, 08:18:44 AM
Here are miracles my lord performed about 2000 years ago and people still did't believe.
1. turning water into wine John 2:1

What evidence do you have that this actually happened?

Quote
2. many healings luke 1:32

What evidence do you have that this actually happened?

Quote
3. Cleansing a Leper Matt 8:1

What evidence do you have that this actually happened?

and so on ...
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 11, 2011, 08:35:38 AM
I have an example for you too. If you made this highly sophisticated humanoid.
This humanoid loves you and you loved it.
but this humanoid disobeyed you and did something terrible that it needs to be destroyed by some kind of federal law or something.

Bad analogy.  According to scripture, the humanoid disobeyed god and needs to be destroyed by god's own law, not someone else's.

There's also a third option that skeptics will often point out to believers and that believers constantly attempt to rationalize away: if the human race became "broken" after Adam and Eve at the fruit, why didn't this omnipotent, omnibenevolent being just fix what was broken and correct the malfunction so that it wouldn't happen again?  Indeed, why even create the opportunity for the species to break itself in the first place?

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 09:55:53 AM
Jeff. very good example.
I have an example for you too. If you made this highly sophisticated humanoid.
This humanoid loves you and you loved it.
but this humanoid disobeyed you and did something terrible that it needs to be destroyed by some kind of federal law or something.

Bad analogy John.  In your little story here, I am not responsible for federal law.  I cannot control federal law.  It is beyond me.  Howeven, in the little story in the bible, your god, yhwh is responsible for the law.  If yhwh is an omnimax god[1], then it made the rules.

Also, If I were to make a "person", I would make it so it could not do terrible things.  And I am just a mortal man of limited power.  So the question is, if yhwh, being omnimax, wanted a man to be obedient, why did he not make it so?


Here are miracles my lord performed about 2000 years ago and people still did't believe.

You act as if we are being petulant about it.  Do you believe the Roman emperor Vespasian performed miracles?  How about Mohammed?  Or [wiki]Sai Baba of Shirdi[/wiki]?  If not, why not?
 1. omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc
I am just servant of my God proclaiming His words.
Some will believe some won't. It is kind sad.
You do not have to believe if you choose not to. History tells people has been searching for hard evidence and proof that God exists or not. However no one really came up with an answer with 100% evidence on either case. Because God created us that way, we were unable and we will never be.
Only through the Words of God and His Holy Spirit. You do not see the wind but you believe it exits.
Because you feel it.
I am sorry for not answering all your questions. but please remember Jesus died for you!.
2000 years ago my Lord said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (matthew 11:25-27)
I think my job is finished here.
Thank you for listening.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 11, 2011, 10:09:38 AM
I am just servant of my God proclaiming His words.
Some will believe some won't. It is kind sad.
You do not have to believe if you choose not to. History tells people has been searching for hard evidence and proof that God exists or not. However no one really came up with an answer with 100% evidence on either case.

Funny how an all-powerful being that loves us (but wil torture us forever if we don't follow him) can't or won't demostrate that he exists.  It's just what we would expect if he didn't exist at all.


Quote
Because God created us that way, we were unable and we will never be.
Only through the Words of God and His Holy Spirit. You do not see the wind but you believe it exits.
Because you feel it.
I am sorry for not answering all your questions. but please remember Jesus died for you!.
2000 years ago my Lord said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (matthew 11:25-27)

Thank you for being such a smug prick!  Seriously, if preaching didn't work before, what makes you think it'll work now?  Oh yeah, you got The TruthTM and your imaginary friend gawh on your side.   &)



Quote
I think my job is finished here.
Thank you for listening.

That's just another way of saying you're going to avoid the arguments.   Would Jesus approve of that?  By your own worldview, you are abandoning these people to eternal torment because you're unable/unwilling to deal with them.  WWJD?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 11, 2011, 10:20:15 AM
John 3 16,

When you became a member you agreed to a set of rules.  Those rules include not preaching.  By not answering our questions, avoiding our points, and quoting scripture at us, you are preaching.  You indicate that you are done here, which, at this point, is entirely up to you.  However, if it turns out you are going to return, you should stop preaching and be more engaging. 

Regards,
Screwtape

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 11, 2011, 11:19:57 AM
One more Christian coward.  I do love how John did quote one of my favorites which demonstrates that Christians are lying when they claim that anyone can believe. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 11, 2011, 11:50:08 AM
John 3 16,

When you became a member you agreed to a set of rules.  Those rules include not preaching.  By not answering our questions, avoiding our points, and quoting scripture at us, you are preaching.  You indicate that you are done here, which, at this point, is entirely up to you.  However, if it turns out you are going to return, you should stop preaching and be more engaging. 

Regards,
Screwtape

He was actually muted by me, and instructed to read the rules. When he read them, demonstrated he understood what was expected, apologized and committed to not transgress any longer, I unmuted him and he started posting in this thread.

We'll know them by their fruits, I guess. Dishonest, disrespectful, ignorant, self-righteous; I can't think of any further way this guy could have so embrassed himself.

Why do some theist show up, promptly piss all over their own god to glorify themselves, then disingenously cop-out? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 11, 2011, 02:59:50 PM
Jeff. very good example.

Thank you for the compliment.  Care to answer my questions? 

I have an example for you too. If you made this highly sophisticated humanoid.
This humanoid loves you and you loved it.
but this humanoid disobeyed you and did something terrible that it needs to be destroyed by some kind of federal law or something.
And you didn't want that to happen so you gave up something that is the most important in you life(you pick it!) and save this humanoid. Happy ending?
But now problem begins, this humanoid will not stop doing this bad things, so you tell him to stop and he says "no. by the way. who are you? telling me what to do? I will do whatever I want to do" and you tell him "I made you and I had to sacrificed my most precious to save you, just to save you"
And he says "oh ya I don't believe it. by the way if your my creator, prove it. I have my buddy humanoid that just lost his toe, you make it regrow, then I will believe you.  So you did it but he still won't believe.

Let me just sum this up by saying this... If you think, for one second, I would have done things similarly to the way your God supposedly did them in this little speech here, then you are out of your freaking mind.   There are so many problems with this example that I don't even know where to start. 

Here are miracles my lord performed about 2000 years ago and people still did't believe.
Snip for brevity.

You forget, I don't think the bible is true.  BUT you're in luck!  If you can prove, (solid evidence here) with an outside source, that Jesus actually did ANY of the miracles you say here, then you will have a captive audience, and I will take you seriously.  Otherwise, it's leprechauns and blue sky and I have no reason to believe a word of it.  And neither should you.  In fact, you should be embarrassed by it.

There have been many religions throughout history that hinge their beliefs on so called miracles.  Take heart in knowing that I don't believe them either.  But do you?  And if you don't, ask yourself why that is.  When you answer that question, please know that I apply that same standard to those of YOUR religion.  Can you do the same? 

I am just servant of my God proclaiming His words.

It is quite possible that you are a servant of a fictitious, mythological being.  If you think that is so outlandishly silly, then I ask you to ponder this...  Throughout history, millions and billions of people have believed in gods that were different than yours.  If you are right, then that makes ALLLLLL of those people wrong, and also makes THEM servants of fictitious, mythological beings.  In other words, believing in fictitious, mythological beings is done ALL the time, and has been done for thousands of years.  Now, either you personally have stumbled onto the actual truth of the universe, or you personally are doing exactly what millions and billions of people have done before you.  Does it seem outlandishly silly now?   I didn't think so. 

Some will believe some won't. It is kind sad.

Actually, if I'm wrong, at least I can say I was being honest with myself.  If you're wrong, then you've lived your life in pursuit of something that is nothing more than 2000 years of horse shit.  That would be WAY more sad.   

You do not have to believe if you choose not to. History tells people has been searching for hard evidence and proof that God exists or not. However no one really came up with an answer with 100% evidence on either case.

You can't prove something DOESN'T exist, but you can prove that something DOES exist.  The fact that you haven't come up with hard evidence is your problem. 

You do not see the wind but you believe it exits.  Because you feel it.

Yes, and we can test it, and verify it, and speak intelligently on it.  None of which you can do with God. 

I am sorry for not answering all your questions. but please remember Jesus died for you!.

/gigglesnort.  No dude.  He didn't. That's a whole different argument.  If the story was true (which it's not), then Jesus never died.  He just had a bad day or so, then changed his home address from earth to heaven.  No sacrifice at all. 

2000 years ago my Lord said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (matthew 11:25-27)

Never happened.

I think my job is finished here.
Thank you for listening.

When danger reared it's ugly head, Sir Robin bravely turned and fled!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 11, 2011, 06:58:38 PM
Water on the ground, JeffPT. I am very sorry to say. The coward isn't returning.

Goddamn the force is strong with you, though. Don't ever leave.  
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 11, 2011, 08:36:33 PM
He was low hanging fruit.  I think everyone knew that.  But it's still pretty fun. 

Thanks for the kind words though, AP.  :) 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 09:55:20 PM
Water on the ground, JeffPT. I am very sorry to say. The coward isn't returning.

Goddamn the force is strong with you, though. Don't ever leave.
Sounds like you want me back. Huh pony?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 09:58:43 PM
He was low hanging fruit.  I think everyone knew that.  But it's still pretty fun. 

Thanks for the kind words though, AP.  :)
Where is you anger coming from?
Are you sensing your eternal comdemnation?
You can be angry all you want but the truth will not change "God does not have to heal amputees" and "He does not want to answer your questions"
Because he is mad at you :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 11, 2011, 10:10:46 PM
John 3 16

Would you be so good as to fill your pockets with some salt, fennel seeds, black pepper, nutmeg, fresh parsley and a bit of garlic?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 11, 2011, 10:15:22 PM
Where is you anger coming from?

Where did you see anger?  I was basically alluding to the fact that you had nothing new, original or insightful to say here. That's what I meant by low hanging fruit.  You are nowhere near the intellectual equal of someone like Truth OT, or some of the other theists we've had in the past.  While they are still wrong in believing in God, they do a way better job of arguing their points.  It's not anger, I just wanted more of a challenge.  I'm sorry if you find that offensive, but after being around this website almost... what... 2 years now, I think of people like you as being a little unworthy of responding to, but I let myself get sucked in anyway.  It's not personal, you're just not good at defending your position, and when things got rough, you ran. It happens all the time.  /shrug. 

I know that probably comes off as arrogant and egotistical, but it's simply the truth; and I think everyone here who's been here a while probably knows it.  You're a person, with opinions and feelings, and in that I respect you and your right to your opinions and feelings, but your arguments were awful.  That's where the "low hanging fruit" comment comes from.  You don't belong on a site like this. 

Are you sensing your eternal comdemnation?
You can be angry all you want but the truth will not change "God does not have to heal amputees" and "He does not want to answer your questions"
Because he is mad at you :) :) :) :)

I rest my case. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 10:17:30 PM
John 3 16

Would you be so good as to fill your pockets with some salt, fennel seeds, black pepper, nutmeg, fresh parsley and a bit of garlic?
I don't know how about you ? Devil
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 10:19:21 PM
Where is you anger coming from?

Where did you see anger?  I was basically alluding to the fact that you had nothing new, original or insightful to say here. That's what I meant by low hanging fruit.  You are nowhere near the intellectual equal of someone like Truth OT, or some of the other theists we've had in the past.  While they are still wrong in believing in God, they do a way better job of arguing their points.  It's not anger, I just wanted more of a challenge.  I'm sorry if you find that offensive, but after being around this website almost... what... 2 years now, I think of people like you as being a little unworthy of responding to, but I let myself get sucked in anyway.  It's not personal, you're just not good at defending your position, and when things got rough, you ran. It happens all the time.  /shrug. 

I know that probably comes off as arrogant and egotistical, but it's simply the truth; and I think everyone here who's been here a while probably knows it.  You're a person, with opinions and feelings, and in that I respect you and your right to your opinions and feelings, but your arguments were awful.  That's where the "low hanging fruit" comment comes from.  You don't belong on a site like this. 

Are you sensing your eternal comdemnation?
You can be angry all you want but the truth will not change "God does not have to heal amputees" and "He does not want to answer your questions"
Because he is mad at you :) :) :) :)

I rest my case.
ok
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 11, 2011, 10:56:34 PM
Where is you anger coming from?
Well, My anger is a response to your preaching and your rudeness.

Quote
Are you sensing your eternal comdemnation?
What eternal condemnation?  We all die, and all the available evidence indicates that no one comes back to life.  There is no condemnation in the grave.

Quote
You can be angry all you want but the truth will not change "God does not have to heal amputees" and "He does not want to answer your questions"
Because he is mad at you :) :) :) :)
(Springy G glances into the corner where She keeps Her Clue-By-Four™ but leaves it sitting there, because Biblegod didn't bother showing up the last time She challenged it to a fight for all the marbles)

If your imaginary friend is mad at Me, kindly tell it to come deal with Me right now.  Shall we say... Sometime before midnight tonight, Central Daylight Time?

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 11:36:20 PM
Where is you anger coming from?
Well, My anger is a response to your preaching and your rudeness.

Quote
Are you sensing your eternal comdemnation?
What eternal condemnation?  We all die, and all the available evidence indicates that no one comes back to life.  There is no condemnation in the grave.That's what you want to believe.
Enjoy you freedom. while you have it.

Quote
You can be angry all you want but the truth will not change "God does not have to heal amputees" and "He does not want to answer your questions"
Because he is mad at you :) :) :) :)
(Springy G glances into the corner where She keeps Her Clue-By-Four™ but leaves it sitting there, because Biblegod didn't bother showing up the last time She challenged it to a fight for all the marbles)

If your imaginary friend is mad at Me, kindly tell it to come deal with Me right now.  Shall we say... Sometime before midnight tonight, Central Daylight Time?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2011, 11:39:33 PM
Well astro. There is no condemnation in the grave. You got that right!
just wait until you wake up. surprise is waiting for you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 11, 2011, 11:48:12 PM
John 3 16, would you be willing to answer a few questions?

First; in your own words, could you define the term "atheist"?  What do you think it means to be an atheist?

Do you think atheists are "angry" at god?  If so, for what reason(s)?

Do you think atheists "know in their hearts" that god exists?  If so, why would they deny this?  If you think it is related to anger, why would denial be the usual course of action?

Do you honestly think that by quoting the bible, that it will strike a nerve in the heart of those atheists?  If so, to what effect?


After you get those, I'd like to ask a few more questions.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 11, 2011, 11:55:16 PM
^^^ I can't hate an imaginary God any more than Christians can hate Zuess or Mercury,,,,,,because as a Christian views these gods imaginary,I view their god the same way.

 The morons who speak for their imaginary friend are an entirely differnt matter.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 12, 2011, 12:17:20 AM
Well astro. There is no condemnation in the grave. You got that right!
just wait until you wake up. surprise is waiting for you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You are truly a sick person, John.  You actually smile at the thought of your pretend god punishing Me for Eternity.

You are all the reason I will ever need to reject Christianity.

(By the way, Biblegod is again a no-show.  I'm beginning to think it doesn't exist, or something.  ;D  I guess this means I get to keep the Universe for another week.)

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 01:11:19 AM
I am sorry Astro you are just a little girl after all.
My smiling faces were to cover my anger. look at those people calling me low hanging fruit, prick, coward......
just proclaiming my God's word. You don't know me.
I don't want to be anybody's enemy except "the Devil"
So please calm down. Your mama's worried about you.


You.too Pony
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 01:15:06 AM
^^^ I can't hate an imaginary God any more than Christians can hate Zuess or Mercury,,,,,,because as a Christian views these gods imaginary,I view their god the same way.

 The morons who speak for their imaginary friend are an entirely differnt matter.
you too monkey.
watch your mouth. who you calling morons
Kid like you making this forum bunch of highschool kids picking on one person and feel proud of yourself.
you proud? Your mama proud of you?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 12, 2011, 01:16:25 AM
John 3 16, could you please respond to post 197?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 01:24:32 AM
John 3 16, could you please respond to post 197?

Thanks.
atheist= non-believer
are you angry? I don't know
I think you know God exits deep inside of you because if not what are you doing here?
Are you a member of "Why UFOS WONT HEAL SMARTIES?.COM" also?
Why do you want to prove or fight against God's people if in your mind God doesn't exit.
Tell me what are you trying to achieve?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 01:27:56 AM
John 3 16, could you please respond to post 197?

Thanks.
you too aaron calling someone you don't even know "smug prick"?
your mama taught you that?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 01:31:09 AM
John 3 16, could you please respond to post 197?

Thanks.
you too aaron calling someone you don't even know "smug prick"?
your mama taught you that? comments like that make you look like 16 year old boy. or are you?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 12, 2011, 01:32:33 AM
you too aaron calling someone you don't even know "smug prick"?
your mama taught you that?

Quote
you too monkey.
watch your mouth. who you calling morons
Kid like you making this forum bunch of highschool kids picking on one person and feel proud of yourself.
you proud? Your mama proud of you?

Quote
I am sorry Astro you are just a little girl after all.
My smiling faces were to cover my anger. look at those people calling me low hanging fruit, prick, coward......
just proclaiming my God's word. You don't know me.
I don't want to be anybody's enemy except "the Devil"
So please calm down. Your mama's worried about you.

Getting sidetracked, I know, but I gotta ask; do you have some sort of mother complex?

Also; how old are you?  It's hard to read your posts and imagine anyone older than 13 or 14.


EDIT: also, if you need to add something to a reply, use the 'modify' button; don't make a new post unless you can't edit the old one.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 01:38:30 AM
is it modify or notify?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 12, 2011, 07:17:47 AM
I am sorry Astro you are just a little girl after all.
My smiling faces were to cover my anger. look at those people calling me low hanging fruit, prick, coward......
just proclaiming my God's word. You don't know me.
I don't want to be anybody's enemy except "the Devil"
So please calm down. Your mama's worried about you.
You.too Pony

You have two options:

1) Interpret the reaction you've gotten in a "why me?" sort of way, that deflects all blame on others.

2) Take responsibility. Ask yourself, "what have I done to effect this reaction, and what can I do to improve?"

A certain sort of person always defaults to #1, there's a word for them too......

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 12, 2011, 07:30:57 AM
John 3 16,

I don't get the feeling that you will be able to sort yourself out. You seem to believe that you are being persecuted for your message and not how you have behaved.

Your behaviour has been reprehensible, and others are duely annoyed, but you seem to make abslutely no connection between the two. If I had to guess, I'd think that you actually have no idea that you've done anything wrong.

I don't think a forum for adults, attempting to have a discussion on a more intellectual level is for you. We do have teens here, and young-minded people, and they are coming along nicely, but even on the most basic levels you've failed to demonstrate any sort of short-term potential that you can learn, teach, listen, respect, demonstrate integrity, be honest. 

I think JeffPT is correct, this place isn't for you. Please google "parthian shot" before you post your final message.  
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 08:25:23 AM
Jeffpt was correct. this place is not for me and never will be.
My original plan was to visit and proclaim few Words, find out responses and see what atheists would react to the gospel, and leave. (you know when I said"my work is finished here")
It was my mistake to come back and try to defend myself. Because that is not the correct way to spread the gospel(if you didn't notice). Gospel is not something we debate or discuss, it should be proclaimed!. Because it is God's word not mine.
I don't know what you are trying to achieve in this website, but please take my advice, you can try to debate, discus, analyse all you want but somethings you won't be able to find out.  Such as "Where was I before I was born, Why am I living, Where do I go after death...etc. I don't know if you are married or have any kids, but if you do, look at your kids in the eyes for a moment........
Do you really think all the things including you, your family, your kids, mountain, sun, water, just happen to be there.  All things just happens with no purpose and disappear with no purpose?
Do you really think there is no God? then how would you explain your feelings your emotions, affection, did it just came out of nowhere?
I am personally interested in what you think Pony. Just you, Pony I am not going to reponde to other people in this forum because it is waste of my time (I found out the hard way ;))
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 12, 2011, 08:34:45 AM
Gospel is not something we debate or discuss, it should be proclaimed!.

Let's just uncritically believe stuff.  Great idea. 


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 12, 2011, 08:59:37 AM
My original plan was to visit and proclaim few Words, find out responses and see what atheists would react to the gospel, and leave. (you know when I said"my work is finished here")
It was my mistake to come back and try to defend myself. Because that is not the correct way to spread the gospel(if you didn't notice). Gospel is not something we debate or discuss, it should be proclaimed!.

That's called "preaching", and it's not allowed here.  I believe you were instructed to read the forum rules... did you do so?

Quote
I don't know what you are trying to achieve in this website

Among other things, we're trying to make Christians think about their beliefs.  It usually doesn't work, but once in a while, there is someone who will go, "Hey, that's a good point... I wonder why that is?"

Quote
but please take my advice

Will you, in turn, take ours?  It's a two-way street, you know.


Quote
you can try to debate, discus, analyse all you want but somethings you won't be able to find out.

So?

Quote
Such as "We was I before I was born, Why am I living, Where do I go after death...etc.

Actually, we do have answers for those things.

Quote
Do you really think all the things including you, your family, your kids, mountain, sun, water, just happen to be there.

Yes.

Quote
All things just happens with no purpose and disappear with no purpose?

Not exactly.  It's not that existence is meaningless, it's that existence has whatever meaning we choose to give it.  Objective meaning does not exist.  Subjective meaning does.

Quote
Do you really think there is no God?

Most likely.

Quote
then how would you explain your feelings your emotions, affection

Electrochemical reactions in the central nervous system.  You know, I don't mean to be rude, but I think you need to get some education about some things.

Quote
did it just came out of nowhere?

No.  This is among the more common strawmen that Christians use against atheists.  No one says that existence came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 12, 2011, 09:53:26 AM
Don't know if John 3 16 is coming back, or if I should even bother, but here goes...


My original plan was to visit and proclaim few Words, find out responses and see what atheists would react to the gospel, and leave. (you know when I said"my work is finished here")

This leads into the next set of questions I had intended.

First, are you aware that many atheists on this site, myself included, have read the entire bible-- cover to cover?  Some of us have read multiple versions, a few have even studied the original language in questions.

Now, you might be wondering why any of us would read the bible if we didn't believe in it.  There are multiple answer to that, but the most common one is that we were once christian, read the bible, then deconverted when we saw what was in it.  Your god is a bloodthirsty monster that kills people all the time.  He commits genocide, gets his followers to praise him for that, then plans more genocide and gets his followers to go along with that as well.


Now, back to the questions:

-Have YOU read the entire bible, cover to cover?

-Have you ever done any original research on the bible?

-Do you believe in the greek gods? (ex: Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, etc)  Do you believe in the norse gods?  Bale?

-If you dismiss all of those other gods, then why do you have a problem when certain people dismiss one additional god?

-Earlier, you said that atheists "know that god exists".  This is not true.  Why can't you accept that we honestly do not think your god exist?

-Given that we honestly do not think god exists, and that we have read the bible cover to cover, what effects do you really think preaching will have on us?


Quote
It was my mistake to come back and try to defend myself. Because that is not the correct way to spread the gospel(if you didn't notice). Gospel is not something we debate or discuss, it should be proclaimed!. Because it is God's word not mine.

-Why do you think the gospel stories are "god's words"?

-What can be used to back up this notion? (note: using the bible to prove the bible doesn't count)

-Ever considered that perhaps it's just a bunch of old stories made up a long time ago?

-What's the difference between "god's words" and someone making up a story that claims to be "god's words"?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 12, 2011, 09:57:23 AM
Jeffpt was correct. this place is not for me and never will be.
My original plan was to visit and proclaim few Words, find out responses and see what atheists would react to the gospel, and leave. (you know when I said"my work is finished here")
So were you disappointed when we didn’t immediately convert or burst into flames?
Quote
It was my mistake to come back and try to defend myself. Because that is not the correct way to spread the gospel(if you didn't notice). Gospel is not something we debate or discuss, it should be proclaimed!. Because it is God's word not mine.
It certainly was since you’ve failed rather amazingly well.  I do like how you admit that you never were here to actually discuss.  You only wanted a soapbox to declare how great  you are.  That is fairly typical for Christians, shouting on street corners but being too afraid to actually stand up for what they say.
Quote
I don't know what you are trying to achieve in this website, but please take my advice, you can try to debate, discus, analyse all you want but somethings you won't be able to find out.  Such as "Where was I before I was born, Why am I living, Where do I go after death...etc. I don't know if you are married or have any kids, but if you do, look at your kids in the eyes for a moment........ Do you really think all the things including you, your family, your kids, mountain, sun, water, just happen to be there.  All things just happens with no purpose and disappear with no purpose?
  This is not my website, but I find that it does a great job in demonstrating theist hypocrisy.  In that there is no evidence for your god or its promises, I see no evidence that there was a “me” before I was born, or that there will be a me after I’m dead.  I’m living because my folks wanted a child.  I don’t have kids but appeals to emotion are rather silly.  Shall I say “look into the eyes of your child and see Allah there?  Zeus?  Queztalcoatl?  You see, you have no evidence that your god has done anything.  I’m sorry that you must assign your purpose to an imaginary friend.  Happily, I have lots of purpose.  And my actions will lead to more beneficial actions through out time.  I dont’ need to feel like some omnipotent being cares for me and only me. I’m not that arrogant and selfish. 
Quote
Do you really think there is no God? then how would you explain your feelings your emotions, affection, did it just came out of nowhere?
No, no gods, no supernatural.  And my feelings and emotions come out of my brain.  And dear, if you don’t think the brain creates these things, why does brain injury do such damage to the person?  The willful ignorance of some Christians is astounding.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 10:19:57 AM
here is for you Aaron.
One answer at a time.
-Have YOU read the entire bible, cover to cover?
yes.
"atheists on this site, myself included, have read the entire bible-- cover to cover?"
-good for you Aaron. then “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." explain this verse with your own words without googling it.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 12, 2011, 01:18:24 PM
-good for you Aaron. then “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." explain this verse with your own words without googling it.
Good luck.

Are you asking what I think it means, or what it means to me?

As for what I think it means; this passage appears to say that bad people will not receive signs from god.  "Sign" meaning things like evidences, visions, miracles, etc. from god.

What does it means to me personally?  Not a damn thing.  It's just a bunch of nonsense strung together by some guy that lived thousands of years ago.  Remember, I read the bible.  If it didn't impress me then, then it won't impress me now.


Now, can you answer the rest of my questions?  In light of your reply, I'm interested about the last batch I've provided.  Here they are again.


-Why do you think the gospel stories are "god's words"?

-What can be used to back up this notion? (note: using the bible to prove the bible doesn't count)

-Ever considered that perhaps it's just a bunch of old stories made up a long time ago?

-What's the difference between "god's words" and someone making up a story that claims to be "god's words"?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 12, 2011, 01:20:17 PM
Jeff. very good example.

Yes many miracles happen in the Bible. Miracles that if they happened today would be proof that magic, including the possibility of divine intervention, was a real force in the world.

Similarly the Quaran has similar claims, as does the Iliad, as does the Books of the Dead, as does the Arthurian Legends, as does Aesop's Fables, and Grimm's Faerie Tales.

However, none of these unambiguous miracles occur in an age where people can check on wether or not they actually happened. Magic seems conspicuously absent in the presence of TV cameras; Divine intervention shies aways from being scientifically tested.

So just because it happened in a book isn't a convincing argument. WWGHA is a shorthand way of asking, since people purport God to do wondrous things even in the here and now and we are to bow are heads in praise for these blessings...why does the unambiguous miracle no longer occur? Specifically, in all the hospitals, in all the world, in the past 100 years, has not one amputee been healed through prayer? Why didn't Manna not fallen from heaven for the Jews starving to death in concentration camps? Why couldn't a Minister raise his hand and calmed the storm before the Tsunami near Sumatra? Why couldn't a priest part the waters in New Orleans during Katrina?

The conclusion is obvious, the stories of magic in the past are made up. Thus we need to treat those stories as unreliable sources of information. If they are unreliable on such tangible this such as 40 years of Wandering in a tiny desert...how much more unreliable are they when claiming things that cannot even be detected, like an afterlife?




Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 12, 2011, 01:37:40 PM
then “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." explain this verse with your own words without googling it.
Good luck.

when i was a christian, I thought that verse meant that one should not doubt.  But then I wondered, why were Christians constantly asking for miracles and these "signs"?   Indeed, JC himself did miracles for the expressed purpose of giving signs, belieing his indignance of being asked for more.  We even have JC promsign that those who believe in him will be able to do miracles like him and even better.  Then, we have more signs in the rest of the NT. 

As for the "sign of Jonah" that always amused me.  What was this exactly?  Christians want to claim it was the "three" days, but why not say JC meant that he would be eaten by a fish?  Oh because that's too ridiculous.   &)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 12, 2011, 03:16:39 PM
Do you really think there is no God?

YES, without question, the Christian God is not real.  Now, you can do 2 things with that comment.  You can either just come back and say "YES HE DOES!" and provide your evidence, or you can say, "Maybe I should hear these people out.  Gosh, I've never really looked in to the other side of the debate, so maybe I should take the time to give these people a chance to convince me of their position."  Are you of the mind set that all arguments have only one side and that hearing the other side is a bad thing?   This is a VERY 2 sided argument, and whether you believe it or not, we have extremely valid reasons to reject the notion that your God is real.  They aren't based on anger, or hate, or anything like you think they are.  Our rejections are based on reason, logic and evidence.  If you care not to hear them, then I have no sympathy for you and the way you get treated. 

Is this not what you are asking of us here John 3 16? Are you not asking us to consider the possibility that your God is real?  And when you think we don't take you seriously, how do you feel?  The difference is that we read what you say and judge it based on the evidence you can provide to back up your claims that God is real.  I've told you that I do not believe what the bible says, but that I am completely open to hearing your evidence from outside the bible that your God is real.  You've offered nothing.  Not a single spec of evidence.  Why would you think it is unreasonable to ask for the evidence?  And why do you think it would be unreasonable to reject what you say based on the obvious fact that you have no evidence to present? 

then how would you explain your feelings your emotions, affection, did it just came out of nowhere?

It's not worth getting into with you.  You could find that in just about any other thread on this site where Christians like you have asked that before.  We have real answers John 3 16.  Real ones.  But you have no intention of learning here.  Even if there were no logical explanation, however, do you understand that your assertion that God poofed them into your body is completely non-evidence based?  You're just saying it as if it's true with nothing to back it up. I could easily say Zeus poofed them into my body and I would have just as much hard evidence as you. 

I am personally interested in what you think Pony. Just you, Pony I am not going to reponde to other people in this forum because it is waste of my time (I found out the hard way ;))

Well shit, that will teach me for not reading the whole post first...
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 05:13:28 PM
One answer at a time Aaron.
Why do you think the gospel stories are "god's words"?
-Because the bible tells me so. (Again, I know you don't believe the bible)
2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (KJV).

now let me ask you A same question again.
I was hoping you would explain about"the sign of the prophet Jonah"part.
but, well you can try again.
I Will be looking forward to your response.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 05:27:32 PM
velkyn.
I did'n know you were a christian. Are you sure? maybe you were just "going to church with your parents once a month christian"? let me ask. I am visiting this website everyday does that make me Atheist?
You said(As for the "sign of Jonah" that always amused me.  What was this exactly?)
I am trying very hard not to be rude, but girl, you made me laugh all day, in fact I am still giggling.
But that's ok at least you are honest. Some dude here told me he read the bible numerous times.
 &) &) &) &)
I was hoping Aaron would answer but I gave him second chance. ;)
 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 12, 2011, 05:41:07 PM
velkyn.
I did'n know you were a christian. Are you sure? maybe you were just "going to church with your parents once a month christian"?

John, most of the atheists in this forum are former Christians, Velkyn included.  (I'm an exception; I've never been a believer.)  They were not casual about it, either.  Most of them have read the bible cover-to-cover, more than once and in more than one translation.

More to the point: the "deconversion" process for these atheists was not a casual or minor matter, like switching from one brand of ice cream to another one or anything.  It was a long, drawn out process, taking months or sometimes even years, that was extraordinarily painful for them in quite a few ways.  If you try to suggest to one of these former Christians that they "weren't really Christians", you are probably going to encounter a lot of hostility.  I recommend you choose your words more carefully.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: fishjie on July 12, 2011, 05:54:37 PM
velkyn.
I did'n know you were a christian. Are you sure? maybe you were just "going to church with your parents once a month christian"? let me ask. I am visiting this website everyday does that make me Atheist?
You said(As for the "sign of Jonah" that always amused me.  What was this exactly?)
I am trying very hard not to be rude, but girl, you made me laugh all day, in fact I am still giggling.
But that's ok at least you are honest. Some dude here told me he read the bible numerous times.
 &) &) &) &)
I was hoping Aaron would answer but I gave him second chance. ;)

Why do you type like a retarded 13 year old?   

I know ... I know...  After all Paul says "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise".     Yes, you are definitely putting everyone to shame with your stupidity.     Can you at least make a bare minimum attempt to form coherent sentences?   Even Paul was smart enough to do that.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 06:08:49 PM
velkyn.
I didn't know you were a christian. Are you sure? maybe you were just "going to church with your parents once a month christian"? let me ask. I am visiting this website everyday does that make me Atheist?
You said(As for the "sign of Jonah" that always amused me.  What was this exactly?)
I am trying very hard not to be rude, but girl, you made me laugh all day, in fact I am still giggling.
But that's ok at least you are honest. Some dude here told me he read the bible numerous times.
 &) &) &) &)
I was hoping Aaron would answer but I gave him second chance. ;)

Why do you type like a retarded 13 year old?   

I know ... I know...  After all Paul says "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise".     Yes, you are definitely putting everyone to shame with your stupidity.     Can you at least make a bare minimum attempt to form coherent sentences?   Even Paul was smart enough to do that.
Oh sorry fish, I probably did not mentioned. English is not my first language.
If it was I would be able to express my feelings more abundantly.
Please do not call me stupid. You don't even know who I am. I could be your neighbor.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 06:16:14 PM
Hi p. dwarf.
Can you find someone in this forum, "true former christian"?
I would like to ask that person "Show me the logical explanation how to become a true christian"
I want scientific evidence, to back up that person's claim.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 12, 2011, 06:18:34 PM
John 3 16,

All he has to go on is how you represent yourself here.

If I had to guess an age, with only your behaviour as evidence, it would not be far off 13. As far as retarded, no, I'd say ignorant of respectful behaviour toward adults, incomplete education (due to being in the eigth grade), and incomplete brain development (due to still being a child). All those factors, together with obviously significant indoctrination lead to the lay mis-diagnosis of mental retardation. 

In poor taste, especially if he knows you're a child.

What is your first language? Korean?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 12, 2011, 06:27:02 PM
I am sorry Astro you are just a little girl after all.
My smiling faces were to cover my anger. look at those people calling me low hanging fruit, prick, coward......
just proclaiming my God's word. You don't know me.
I don't want to be anybody's enemy except "the Devil"
So please calm down. Your mama's worried about you.
John, you disgust Me.

You are worse than low-hanging fruit, because fruit has nutritional value.

You are worse than a prick.  The male sexual organ can be used to inseminate a female, whereas your words are intellectually sterile.

There is no credible empirical evidence for your god, and I know you well enough from your public behaviour on this forum to know that I never want to become like you.

By the way, I'm 53 years old.  I read the Bible when I was 6, and saw through the charade immediately.

John, it is My personal wish for you that you become permanently incapable of ignoring the immorality of "salvation" and "original sin,"  and the lack of genuine evidence for your god.  May real life trample your prayers underfoot, and may you lose your faith and never regain it.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 12, 2011, 06:44:44 PM
Hi p. dwarf.
Can you find someone in this forum, "true former christian"?

Most of the atheists here, as I said, are "true former Christians", Velkyn being one of them (which is why I spoke up, since your comment was addressed to her).  I could name others, but I don't really think it's my place to say "so-and-so is a former Christian who deconverted because of such-and-such, so ask him about it."  If asking questions of former true believers is important to you, I suggest you start a thread saying so.

Quote
I would like to ask that person "Show me the logical explanation how to become a true christian"
I want scientific evidence, to back up that person's claim.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you would want to ask an atheist for the best path to become a Christian.  I'm even more puzzled as to why you would ask for scientific evidence for Christianity, since an atheist will tell you, quite firmly, that there is none.  (So will most honest Christians, for that matter.)  But again, if that's what you want to ask, please do start a thread.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 12, 2011, 06:56:04 PM

Most of the atheists here, as I said, are "true former Christians"

Pianodwarf, that's not the way they see it. No True Christian TM would ever deconvert, because a True Christian TM would have known the LORD and would never want to deconvert. Anyone that deconverts was never a True Christian TM in the first place.

Isn't that right 3:16?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 07:05:49 PM

Most of the atheists here, as I said, are "true former Christians"

Pianodwarf, that's not the way they see it. No True Christian TM would ever deconvert, because a True Christian TM would have known the LORD and would never want to deconvert. Anyone that deconverts was never a True Christian TM in the first place.

Isn't that right 3:16?WOW! THAT'S RIGHT
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 12, 2011, 07:09:48 PM
WOW! THAT'S RIGHT

I know, I know. I've been here before.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: fishjie on July 12, 2011, 07:13:45 PM
velkyn.
I didn't know you were a christian. Are you sure? maybe you were just "going to church with your parents once a month christian"? let me ask. I am visiting this website everyday does that make me Atheist?
You said(As for the "sign of Jonah" that always amused me.  What was this exactly?)
I am trying very hard not to be rude, but girl, you made me laugh all day, in fact I am still giggling.
But that's ok at least you are honest. Some dude here told me he read the bible numerous times.
 &) &) &) &)
I was hoping Aaron would answer but I gave him second chance. ;)

Why do you type like a retarded 13 year old?   

I know ... I know...  After all Paul says "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise".     Yes, you are definitely putting everyone to shame with your stupidity.     Can you at least make a bare minimum attempt to form coherent sentences?   Even Paul was smart enough to do that.
Oh sorry fish, I probably did not mentioned. English is not my first language.
If it was I would be able to express my feelings more abundantly.
Please do not call me stupid. You don't even know who I am. I could be your neighbor.

OK, that's cool, I can excuse the bad English.   But the bad posts I cannot.     I can only hope that when you are older you can learn how to engage in a real discussion.   I know my neighbors, and you are not one of them.   Believe me, it'd be really obvious.   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 07:17:25 PM
HI Pony.
I thought you guy are logical, scientifical, evidence based, intellectual beings.
now look at you. it makes my eyes hurt just to read your insult.
you guys don't guess, you only speak of the matters that are logically proven.
well your last post totally sounds "non-evidence based"
by the way, what is your first language? French?
 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 07:29:31 PM
hi astro.
I am sorry if I hurt your feeling.
I apologize.
I am sorry about your choice. too
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 12, 2011, 07:31:06 PM
you guys don't guess, you only speak of the matters that are logically proven.

Somebody needs to grab that for their sig before I do.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 12, 2011, 07:49:07 PM
Hal keep it- you killed it
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 12, 2011, 07:51:32 PM
HI Pony.
I thought you guy are logical, scientifical, evidence based, intellectual beings.
now look at you. it makes my eyes hurt just to read your insult.
you guys don't guess, you only speak of the matters that are logically proven.
well your last post totally sounds "non-evidence based"
by the way, what is your first language? French?

Yes, French. I know a bit of a few others.

I thought I tried to be as plain as possible in my last post, but it doesn't seem up to your reading abilities. I think I can guess. I just think that it's honest to say I am guessing when I guess. What most here ARE against is presenting a guess as if it was a fact, supported by evidence.

I did not insult you, I made a guess about your mental capacity and age based on the quality of your posts and your behaviour since signing up. I think it was a good one. How far off in age was I? What is your fist language?

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 12, 2011, 07:55:00 PM
Hal keep it- you killed it

Thanks man. I'm claiming it then.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 12, 2011, 07:59:23 PM
ok ok ok
I will never come back.
you won't ever see me again.
I am really frightended by your gun threat.
--you killed it.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 12, 2011, 08:35:31 PM

Most of the atheists here, as I said, are "true former Christians"

Pianodwarf, that's not the way they see it. No True Christian TM would ever deconvert, because a True Christian TM would have known the LORD and would never want to deconvert. Anyone that deconverts was never a True Christian TM in the first place.

Oh, right, my mistake.  I humbly beg forgiveness of all involved in this conversation.  If you can somehow manage to forgive me, I'll go talk to that Scotsman over there about him putting sugar on his porridge.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Jesuspadawan on July 12, 2011, 09:17:08 PM
"Also, do you believe/understand the great commission to mean to preach the gospel to all the nations? If so, isn't it your Christian duty to convince/convert me? If you think that it means to preach and not worry about convincing/converting, than aren't you really here just to preach? And, if you are here to preach, be advised that this is not allowed in the forum. "

It is a believers responsibility to take the gospel to all the world, but not and try to force others to believe it. To preach to someone is a one sided conversation, but in a forum it should be understood that this is dialogue where beliefs, although different, are expressed.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 12, 2011, 09:28:56 PM
"Also, do you believe/understand the great commission to mean to preach the gospel to all the nations? If so, isn't it your Christian duty to convince/convert me? If you think that it means to preach and not worry about convincing/converting, than aren't you really here just to preach? And, if you are here to preach, be advised that this is not allowed in the forum. "

It is a believers responsibility to take the gospel to all the world, but not and try to force others to believe it. To preach to someone is a one sided conversation, but in a forum it should be understood that this is dialogue where beliefs, although different, are expressed.
They took it to my corner of the world,but only sent child raping pedophile priests to spread the word
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Jesuspadawan on July 12, 2011, 09:46:00 PM
Yeah that is an evil thing. So much pain and suffering because of that.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Emily on July 12, 2011, 10:00:42 PM
Yeah that is an evil thing. So much pain and suffering because of that.

Yet those douchebags can easily pray to their version of god and feel forgiven for truly harming innocent children.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 13, 2011, 12:20:35 AM
I was hoping Aaron would answer but I gave him second chance. ;)

For what it's worth; I was at work at the time you posted this, so I had no way of commenting on your post.


Quote
ok ok ok
I will never come back.
you won't ever see me again.
I am really frightended by your gun threat.

Looks like it's just as well you're not coming back(apparently).  You've answered as much as I needed to see.  Your answers were poorly written and inarticulated.  Based on what you gave me in post 220, (as well as other comments) I can see where this is going.  I don't know if you're going to read this, but you need to learn several things.  First, you need to understand why using the bible to prove the bible is a terrible argument.  Just because something claims to be true, that does not make it so.  Second, you need to learn that atheists are not "angry at god", nor do they "know in their hearts that god exists".  To use, god is nothing more than an imaginary being, and we cannot be angey at such a thing.  No more than you can be angry at Darth Vader.  Likewise we cannot "know in our hearts" that an imaginary being exists.  It's like saying "you know in your heart, Darth Vader exists".

Finally, you need to understand that many of us have read the bible, and the implications of that.  According to your own worldview, these people have read the very words of god himself, and rejected it.  Therefore, it should be obvious that quoting a passage from the bible will not impress them, or strike a nerve, or whatever you intended.  You need more than the bible.  You need prove and evidence.

I could go on some more, but really, there's no point until you recognize and acknowledge the issues you need to deal with; and from the looks of it, that might be quite a long time from now.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 13, 2011, 07:41:49 AM
John 3 16, you're welcome back anytime, but, it would probably better if you learn a bit more about the English language, grow up, and finish your basic education before your return. Maybe 4-5 years. I really hope that is all it takes to help you.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 13, 2011, 10:27:05 AM
velkyn.
I did'n know you were a christian. Are you sure? maybe you were just "going to church with your parents once a month christian"? let me ask. I am visiting this website everyday does that make me Atheist?
You said(As for the "sign of Jonah" that always amused me.  What was this exactly?)
I am trying very hard not to be rude, but girl, you made me laugh all day, in fact I am still giggling.
But that's ok at least you are honest. Some dude here told me he read the bible numerous times.
 &) &) &) &)
I was hoping Aaron would answer but I gave him second chance. ;)

Nice, John and a shame that *you* aren’t honest.  Yes, I’m quite sure I was a Christian.  I do love how Christians like you have no problem bearing false witness about other people.  What does happen when your god knows you’ll sin and sin again intentionally? Do you run tohim and say “I lied for you, God!”  You should know that Romans 3 says your god doesn’t’ like that at all.

I went to church, I taught bible school, I helped serve communion, and I sang in the choice.  I really, really believed, though it amuses me to say that now.  I prayed constantly and when I was losing my faith, I prayed harder.  And guess what? I got no answer.  None at all.  I’ve also read the bible at least twice, once while a believer and once not, plus a couple of times in bits and pieces.  Mostly because of Christians like you who are so ignorant about your own religion. 

It is always also amusing when a Christian like you does all he can to avoid answering questions, attempting to rely on ignorance, bad analogies and lies to do so.   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 13, 2011, 11:26:00 AM
Well astro. There is no condemnation in the grave. You got that right!
just wait until you wake up. surprise is waiting for you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You are truly a sick person, John.  You actually smile at the thought of your pretend god punishing Me for Eternity.

You are all the reason I will ever need to reject Christianity.

(By the way, Biblegod is again a no-show.  I'm beginning to think it doesn't exist, or something.  ;D  I guess this means I get to keep the Universe for another week.)

Not an uncommon thought process unfortunately. It is a weird extension of one of the fundamental reasons for belief....universal justice. Since, by that thought process, credulousness is "good" skepiticism is "evil" and therfore: You'll get yours in the end.

It seems so primitive, so much a a gibbering tribal native might believe, I can't see how people can maintain this nonesense as the primary way of thinking in the 21rst century.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 13, 2011, 11:27:05 AM
John 3 16, you're welcome back anytime, but, it would probably better if you learn a bit more about the English language, grow up, and finish your basic education before your return. Maybe 4-5 years. I really hope that is all it takes to help you.

Oh and what gun threat was J315 and 3/4 talking about? I went through the thread and couldn't see one.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 13, 2011, 01:58:13 PM
Hatter23, see under my handle it says "you keep what you kill"?

12Monkeys cited that with reference to a sig. that HAL wanted, and now displays. John 3 16, unable to read English, ignorantly construed that as a "gun threat".

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 08:33:15 AM
you guys don't guess, you only speak of the matters that are logically proven.

Somebody needs to grab that for their sig before I do.
I need your help. this time it's got nothing to do with religion or Christianity.
With my limited english skill to comprehend, what Hal mention above, it just sounds like he was referring a sauer hand gun. (SIG)
I do not want to falsely accuse anybody of a gun threat. it is totally not my intention.
So, is there anybody in this forum kindly explain to me what Hal meant by "Grab that for sig"
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 14, 2011, 08:45:00 AM
you guys don't guess, you only speak of the matters that are logically proven.

Somebody needs to grab that for their sig before I do.
I need your help. this time it's got nothing to do with religion or Christianity.
With my limited english skill to comprehend, what Hal mention above, it just sounds like he was referring a sauer hand gun. (SIG)
I do not want to falsely accuse anybody of a gun threat. it is totally not my intension.
So, is there anybody in this forum kindly explain to me that Hal meant by "Grab that for sig"

Ah, I see the problem.  He wasn't talking about a Sig Sauer.  Sig, in this case, is short for "signature".  An old tradition here at WWGHA is for the regulars to take absurd things said by theists as use them in their signatures or their "sigs".  (Mine is below.)  What HAL was saying was that what you said above, "you guys don't guess, you only speak of the matters that are logically proven", is also foolish enough for use as a signature.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 08:55:45 AM
Thank you for you asnwer. ;D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 08:58:23 AM
And Hal I am sorry for a false accusation.
It was a mistake. I apologize
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
 I think I can guess. I just think that it's honest to say I am guessing when I guess.
-embarrassed pony.
Can I keep that for a sig?
ooops! i misspelled "ambassador"
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on July 14, 2011, 09:36:41 AM
Why would you lie about his emotional state in your quote?

Is lying necessary?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 09:53:59 AM
Then I am demanding an apology from embezzled pony for calling me ignorant just by misunderstanding Hal's comment.
That is truly disrespectful to call someone like that, just because a person is not fluent in English.
I was not born and raised here in the states, in fact, most of time I am out of the country.
I misspelled again. &)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on July 14, 2011, 10:02:01 AM
Calling someone ignorant when (s)he has demonstrated a high degree of ignorance is not an insult; it is an observation.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 10:16:27 AM
That's right, but Pony was specifically referring to my English.
Do you not get it? or are you lying?
Is lying necessary?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on July 14, 2011, 10:19:26 AM
He didn't say that your language problem was ignorant.  He said that taking it as a "gun threat" was ignorant.

And it was, no matter what language issues exist.  It was a stupid first assumption to make.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 10:33:20 AM
He didn't say that your language problem was ignorant.  He said that taking it as a "gun threat" was ignorant.

And it was, no matter what language issues exist.  It was a stupid first assumption to make.
"It was a stupid first assumption to make"
That sounds a stupid, too. don't you think?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on July 14, 2011, 10:46:28 AM
John 3 16:

Just a suggestion, J316 read through a thread from the start before commenting. If you had done this, you would have seen on the very first page, for instance, a reference to a signature and could have avoided the misunderstanding.

You might also be better able to contribute to the discussion.

But this thread is not about you, will you please get to the topic. Thank You!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 10:55:09 AM
ok I'm in.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 14, 2011, 11:08:35 AM
John 3 16

He was referring to your understanding of what a "sig" meant in this forum and he was correct. You admitted it in your post where you asked what a sig was.  I would say, by asking you showed a degree of curiosity and a desire to free yourself from ignorance.  That is a good thing.

Now you know what it is, so your ignorance in that regard is solved.  Being called ignorant is not necessarily derogatory.  I am ignorant of many things: accounting rules, electrical engineering, how to build a deck, etc.  It is not inflamatory to say I am ignorant of those things.  Don't be so sensitive.

Regards,
Screwtape
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 14, 2011, 12:21:07 PM
John 3 16

He was referring to your understanding of what a "sig" meant in this forum and he was correct. You admitted it in your post where you asked what a sig was.  I would say, by asking you showed a degree of curiosity and a desire to free yourself from ignorance.  That is a good thing.

Now you know what it is, so your ignorance in that regard is solved.  Being called ignorant is not necessarily derogatory.  I am ignorant of many things: accounting rules, electrical engineering, how to build a deck, etc.  It is not inflamatory to say I am ignorant of those things.  Don't be so sensitive.

Regards,
Screwtape

Or the adage "Ignorance is a disease, and it can be easily cured with information"
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 14, 2011, 03:14:41 PM
"Ignorance(not knowing God) is a disease, and it can be easily cured with information(gospel)"
Good job. Hatter.
you impressed me.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Don_Quixote on July 14, 2011, 04:24:12 PM
"Ignorance(not knowing Allah) is a disease, and it can be easily cured with information(Q'ran)"Good job. Hatter.
you impressed me.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 14, 2011, 05:44:16 PM
Oh, and for the record, John, I have decided not to accept your apology.  It was somewhat lacking, mostly in that you claimed to be 'sorry' for the wrong things and appended a Pascal's Wager-style parting shot.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 15, 2011, 08:15:53 AM
"Ignorance(not knowing God) is a disease, and it can be easily cured with information(gospel)"
Good job. Hatter.
you impressed me.

ah, always good to know a Christian will try to subvert something.  WEll, John, knowing God like which type of Christian? And which version of the story in the Gospels?  I do expect that you'll be able to do the miracles that JC promised for all of his followers to demonstrate that your version of Christianity is the only real one.  I've asked this of most, if not all of the Christians who come on to this forum and not suprisingly, all of them are unable to do these miracles.  I ask and ask them to go to a vets' hospital and heal but they all run away.  Rather sad and selfish, don't you think? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 15, 2011, 09:42:49 AM
AHH miracles, miracles, miracles."O worm Jacob, O little Israel" (Isaiah 41:14)
Supporting documents, credible evidences, to see to believe.
We are all worms in a jar trying to understand the Creator with OUR BRIANS OF WORMS.
We (including myself) are all worms trying to reason with the Creator with give and take manner.
God is only, yes only willing to reveal Himself to the ones that are subject to His words and believe.
Worms in a jar demanding the creator to show them miracles, trying to bargain with Him.
Worms ORDERING the Creator to do something for them and they call it prayer. 
Are worms trying to be God? Show me the ones you created.
How helpless are we? can you make your hair grow backwards? can you make yourself invincible?
Are you immortal?. Do you know that will happen tomorrow?
I know God as much as He allowed me to know.
If you say "show me the money"then I can guarantee you'll never see it.
Why we don't know God, because we are creation by God.  Not Creator.
If, only if (because I know you don't believe) God asks you "WHY SHOULD I HEAL AMPUTEES?"
Then what will you say?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 15, 2011, 10:18:04 AM
 Funny you use worms .....as god does heal their amputations
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 15, 2011, 10:19:57 AM
AHH miracles, miracles, miracles."O worm Jacob, O little Israel" (Isaiah 41:14)
Supporting documents, credible evidences, to see to believe.
We are all worms in a jar trying to understand the Creator with OUR BRIANS OF WORMS.
Sorry, I have a brain but not made of worms.  You may have a brain of worms.  It’s always rather cute to see Christians trying to excuse the impotence of their supposed god. Why no more miracles, John?  Why are they only limited to stories in a book, a book that says that JC did miracles to establish who he was.  Why doesn’t he do that now if he really wants people to believe, just like back then? 
Quote
We (including myself) are all worms trying to reason with the Creator with give and take manner.God is only, yes only willing to reveal Himself to the ones that are subject to His words and believe.
No, you are a worm, if you care to call yourself, that, who claims to know all about God when convenient and to claim he knows nothing when asked hard questions.  Nice chicken and egg problem you’ve posed too.  So, your god can’t or won’t reveal himself to anyone who doesn’t already believe. Rather hard for anyone to be converted then or to have any free will.  So we end up as little automatons for God’s whim.  Just like how the greeks and romans thought of humans and their gods. 
Quote
Worms in a jar demanding the creator to show them miracles, trying to bargain with Him. Worms ORDERING the Creator to do something for them and they call it prayer.
no, that’s Christians trying to get their god to answer prayers.  Christians jstu like you, all so sure that you know what God “really” wants.  It’s always cute to see Christians insiting that their god answers them, but when I would ask why doesn’t god answer a certain prayer, ooh, suddenly God doesn’t answer prayers so easily, then the excuses come out. 
Quote
Are worms trying to be God? Show me the ones you created.
show me ones that you can prove your god created.  Come on, surely you can do that?  Of course you can’t, you can’t show any evidence of your god.  Perhaps Ptah created those worms, John.  maybe your faith is misplaced and you’ll be eaten by the monster in the Egyptian hell. 
[quoteHow helpless are we? can you make your hair grow backwards? can you make yourself invincible?[/quote] Ah, hair grow backwards?  we can make hair grow back.  We can cure cancer in some cases. And gee, we’re getting better and better at replacing organs, and such.  Funny how God can’t do any of these things with “prayer” or “miracles”.
Quote
Are you immortal?. Do you know that will happen tomorrow?
no evidence that this god of yours is immortal, that it knows anything or that it simply exists. 
Quote
I know God as much as He allowed me to know. If you say "show me the money"then I can guarantee you'll never see it.
Funny how Thomas had no problem.  Why not me?  Yawn,  all theists claim to know God.  and all of them are sure that they know the only ‘real’ one.  Again, evidence or you are just one more Christian who has nothing to support them other than arrogant claims.
Quote
Why we don't know God, because we are creation by God.  Not Creator.
wow, nice lack of any sense or logic there.  It’s called a false dichotomy, by the way.
Quote
If, only if (because I know you don't believe) God asks you "WHY SHOULD I HEAL AMPUTEES?" Then what will you say?
  I’ll say “Gee God, you claim to be merciful, and good.  Why wouldn’t you heal amputees who suffer from stump ulcers, the pain of phantom limbs, etc?  Why not heal a man who lost his arms in a war so he could hold his child again, feeling warm flesh on warm flesh? Only a spiteful petty god would make people suffer or only do healing miracles if he got enough praise from beings that should be beneath his notice.  I’d heal amputees if I could, just to see them happy. I’d need no praise, no worship, no credit.  You’ve supposedly healed people before per your magic book, why not now? What is the difference now?   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 15, 2011, 12:24:47 PM
"Ignorance(not knowing God) is a disease, and it can be easily cured with information(gospel)"
Good job. Hatter.
you impressed me.

And since a study of the gospel led me to know it is just plain old mythology, just like numerous other cultures developed,. A understanding of gospel cured me of the ignorant notion the the judeo-christian god exists.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 15, 2011, 12:31:58 PM
AHH miracles, miracles, miracles."O worm Jacob, O little Israel" (Isaiah 41:14)
Supporting documents, credible evidences, to see to believe.
We are all worms in a jar trying to understand the Creator with OUR BRIANS OF WORMS.
We (including myself) are all worms trying to reason with the Creator with give and take manner.
God is only, yes only willing to reveal Himself to the ones that are subject to His words and believe.
Worms in a jar demanding the creator to show them miracles, trying to bargain with Him.
Worms ORDERING the Creator to do something for them and they call it prayer. 
Are worms trying to be God? Show me the ones you created.
How helpless are we? can you make your hair grow backwards? can you make yourself invincible?
Are you immortal?. Do you know that will happen tomorrow?
I know God as much as He allowed me to know.
If you say "show me the money"then I can guarantee you'll never see it.
Why we don't know God, because we are creation by God.  Not Creator.
If, only if (because I know you don't believe) God asks you "WHY SHOULD I HEAL AMPUTEES?"
Then what will you say?

So you are making, most amusingly, an appeal to ignorance. When someone 1700 years ago can up with a name for how lousy an argument you have, perhaps it is time to get a better argument
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: fishjie on July 15, 2011, 04:14:06 PM
AHH miracles, miracles, miracles."O worm Jacob, O little Israel" (Isaiah 41:14)
Supporting documents, credible evidences, to see to believe.
We are all worms in a jar trying to understand the Creator with OUR BRIANS OF WORMS.
We (including myself) are all worms trying to reason with the Creator with give and take manner.
God is only, yes only willing to reveal Himself to the ones that are subject to His words and believe.
Worms in a jar demanding the creator to show them miracles, trying to bargain with Him.
Worms ORDERING the Creator to do something for them and they call it prayer. 
Are worms trying to be God? Show me the ones you created.
How helpless are we? can you make your hair grow backwards? can you make yourself invincible?
Are you immortal?. Do you know that will happen tomorrow?
I know God as much as He allowed me to know.
If you say "show me the money"then I can guarantee you'll never see it.
Why we don't know God, because we are creation by God.  Not Creator.
If, only if (because I know you don't believe) God asks you "WHY SHOULD I HEAL AMPUTEES?"
Then what will you say?

Yet you believe in an ancient book written thousands of years ago by other such worms, who are equally ignorant, and yet claimed to know this "Creator" fellow?    What made those worms so special?   

I'll stick to using the brain God gave me thank you, instead of wallowing in ignorance.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 15, 2011, 07:33:58 PM
Velkyn needs some evidence.
Well, if evidence is what you are looking for. I am going to ask you something.
When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it".
Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here.
You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police:
Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.
And Please, please do not waste your and my time coming up with stupid excuses like "There is no miracles so there is no God"or"Some ignorant christian guy named John failed to come up with an evidence, therefore "God doesn't exist".
Because if you do, I am gonna call you (IGNORANT) >:(
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 15, 2011, 07:37:03 PM
OH I forgot.
In case you didn't notice, I switched my membership to WSGHA
(Why Should God Heal Amputees)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 15, 2011, 07:58:54 PM
Velkyn needs some evidence.
Well, if evidence is what you are looking for. I am going to ask you something.
When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it".
Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here.
You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police:
Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.
And Please, please do not waste your and my time coming up with stupid excuses like "There is no miracles so there is no God"or"Some ignorant christian guy named John failed to come up with an evidence, therefore "God doesn't exist".
Because if you do, I am gonna call you (IGNORANT) >:(
If a God existed there would be no such thing as a pedophile priest...end of story. If he turns a woman into a pillar of salt for disobeying him,the churches would be filled with salt from all the God-botherers (thanks to graybeard for the term) who disobey God on a daily basis

 John 3:16 you would be the first salt pile you IGNORANT moron
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 15, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Not a very good answer monkey.
You have to start thinking about the people that are somewhere in between atheist and theist.
What if they say "So if there is no pervert in the church, then it's an evidence that God exist?"

I dub thee IGNORANCE point one.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 15, 2011, 08:48:54 PM
Velkyn needs some evidence.
Well, if evidence is what you are looking for. I am going to ask you something.
When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it".
Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here.
You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police:
Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.

Low... hanging... fruit.  You just keep proving my point.  You're just making it worse for yourself and this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.  You tout this argument like it's really gonna mess us up!! What you don't understand is that this is a fools argument.  Want me to prove that to you?  Alright, do this for me... Prove Zeus doesn't exist.  Or better yet, how about leprechauns.. yeah, prove they don't exist.  And while you're at it, prove Allah, Vishnu, Thor, Athena, and Poseidon don't exist.  When you realize you can't, you will know why we can't prove your God doesn't exist.  The thing that makes you low hanging fruit is the fact that you will probably see our inability to disprove your God as a victory for you, while at the same you are fully incapable of proving Thor doesn't exist.  It's really sad. 

It all boils down to reasonable doubt.  I would assume that you and I both would agree that Thor does not exist.  However, neither of us could prove beyond any doubt that he doesn't.  All we can establish is that given the evidence for, and against Thor, it is beyond reasonable doubt to conclude he doesn't exist.  It is exactly the same with your God.  If you want some facts that point to there being no God, then we could give you plenty of them.  But no one can give you rock solid proof anymore than you could give rock solid proof that Thor doesn't exist.   

What's worse, you even say... "Well, if it's evidence you're looking for", and then follow it up with NOTHING.  It's like you're about to give us your evidence and then instead you ask a really dumb question.

By giving us no evidence, you've already given us all the proof we need.   

And Please, please do not waste your and my time coming up with stupid excuses like "There is no miracles so there is no God"or"Some ignorant christian guy named John failed to come up with an evidence, therefore "God doesn't exist".
Because if you do, I am gonna call you (IGNORANT) >:(

/sigh.  How old are you?  I didn't think about it before, but maybe you're just a little kid and I should cut you some slack.  If you're a little kid, then I could understand your confusion a bit more. 

Now I suppose you will dub me Ignorance point 2 now (whatever that means)?  Gee, I'll be so surprised and upset.... I'm sure you made 12 Monkeys cry too.  Poor monkey...

&)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 15, 2011, 09:31:58 PM
Jeff congratulations! Finally you and I, on the same page.
You said "But no one can give you rock solid proof anymore than you could give rock solid proof that God doesn't exist." That's what I was telling you all along (See reply#180).
Well, back to you, you keep saying "I'm not mad I'm not mad, but that OK you don't have to hide your anger.   
You said "this is a fools argument" well guess what, Jeff
I don't even have to point this one out, but this "fools argument" is what you've been doing Since day one. Ask your animal buddies. ;)
So calm down, take a deep breath.
Try to ignore your intuitive senses. (If you smell something is burning, I think you are sensing somebody's arse is burning in lake of fire for eternity) And don't scream like a little girl because I didn't say it was your A---. :P
 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 15, 2011, 09:33:32 PM
Oh I forgot.
If you really really want to know my age, Give me your address I will mail it to you.

I dub not you any point, because you are not worth it >:(
Your post was worse than monkey's
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 15, 2011, 10:28:43 PM
Jeff congratulations! Finally you and I, on the same page.
You said "But no one can give you rock solid proof anymore than you could give rock solid proof that God doesn't exist." That's what I was telling you all along (See reply#180).

Then why did you ask for people to give you rock solid evidence that God doesn't exist if you already knew there wasn't any?  Obviously WE know that, but from your most recent post, you made it seem like YOU didn't know that.  What are you trying to accomplish with this stuff?  I don't understand your argument at all here. 

BTW, in what way do you think this helps your case... or better yet, maybe I should ask what your case is in the first place?   

Well, back to you, you keep saying "I'm not mad I'm not mad, but that OK you don't have to hide your anger. 

I'm not mad.  Look around at some of my past posts where I've been mad.  I wouldn't hold back if I were.  This is the internet; why would I hide it if I was mad at you?  I can think you're beliefs are idiotic without being mad at you.  You might be getting angry though.  You're terrible at this, even though you're trying to get your God's message across as best you can.  Maybe it upsets you that you're just digging yourself into deeper holes every time you say something.  Maybe your upset with yourself because not only are you not getting your message across, you are embarrassing yourself with every push of the "post" button.  But please don't project you're anger on to me as if I share your rage.  I don't. 

 
You said "this is a fools argument" well guess what, Jeff
I don't even have to point this one out, but this "fools argument" is what you've been doing Since day one. Ask your animal buddies. ;)

What are you talking about here? What argument have I been doing since day one?  I'm trying to sort through all of your nonsense, and forgive me if I get this incorrect, but are are you trying to tell me that your EVIDENCE for God is the fact that you have no evidence for God?   

Ask my animal buddies?  Alright, my cat also seems to think you're not very good at this. 

So calm down, take a deep breath.

Trust me.  If I were mad at you, you'd know it.  I'm simply not.  You probably think I'm angry because you think all atheists are just angry people.  We're not. 

Try to ignore your intuitive senses. (If you smell something is burning, I think you are sensing somebody's arse is burning in lake of fire for eternity) And don't scream like a little girl because I didn't say it was your A---. :P

I ignore my "intuitive senses" quite a bit of the time.  They're wrong just as much as they're right. 

There's no such thing as hell, so trying to scare me with it is even more foolish.  You're like Buzz Lightyear with that...  Pointing your impotent laser beam at my forehead and trying to fry me with it.  It's just a toy man. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 15, 2011, 10:38:22 PM
Oh I forgot.
If you really really want to know my age, Give me your address I will mail it to you.

It's just 2 numbers to type (well, unless you're under 10, which is a very good possibility).  I'm 36.  Why do you need to mail it to me?  And why would I give you my address?  You're a Christian and I'm an athiest.  While the likelihood of me vandalizing your property is extremely low, I've known plenty of Christians who would love nothing more than to spread the Jesus' love by taking a baseball bat to my personal property.  No thanks.

I dub not you any point, because you are not worth it >:(

Alright.

Your post was worse than monkey's

Really?  Let me take a look at his post again...

Oh, YEP, you're right.  His post was better than mine.  He called you an ignorant moron and I didn't.  You're right, I should have called you that too.  I can see now how his post was superior.  I tip my hat to you, 12 Monkeys. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 15, 2011, 11:16:04 PM
I beg your pardon, with my ignorant English problems I had no idea what you were talking about until I asked my son.  You said "You're like Buzz Lightyear with that...  Pointing your impotent laser beam at my forehead and trying to fry me with it.  It's just a toy man."

Are you....my neighbor Sam?
He is in his mid 30's ,single , living with his parents, no job, and most of all I tell ya.
He is into children's animation, I mean he is into it, deep...
And last time I talk him about Jesus, he said the same thing that "low hanging ...."
If it is you Sam, you better stop collecting them toys and start helping your parents.
I offered you $20 for mowing my lawn, but you said something about your collection needs to be completed or something.
Man, Sam oh Sam I am calling your parents right now.   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 15, 2011, 11:44:45 PM
Are you....my neighbor Sam?

No, my name is Jeff.  You've called me Jeff several times now. 

He is in his mid 30's ,single , living with his parents, no job, and most of all I tell ya.

I'm sorry to hear that.  Perhaps you should help him out instead of trying to sell him your nonsense about Jesus.

He is into children's animation, I mean he is into it, deep...

I'm not sure why you're telling me that.  Is this some sort of sexual deviancy thing you're pointing out, because I don't get the significance here.

And last time I talk him about Jesus, he said the same thing that "low hanging ...."

Then maybe you should leave him alone and not push your crap on him?  Better yet, now that you have 2 people calling you low hanging fruit, maybe you should take it a bit more seriously. 

If it is you Sam, you better stop collecting them toys and start helping your parents.

My name is Jeff.  J E F F.  This is pretty basic stuff here.  Honestly, what is going on with you?  Are you on drugs?  Maybe you need some help. 

I offered you $20 for mowing my lawn, but you said something about your collection needs to be completed or something.

Alright, from this I am gleaning some new information.  You say "my lawn" as if you own some property, on which you have a lawn.  I assume then that you are old enough to own a home on that lawn.  If this is the case, then I REALLY feel bad for you now because it means your an adult.  If you were a child, I could understand your idiocy, but now you're just an embarrassment to yourself. 

I find it interesting that in everything I posted to you, and in all the questions I asked, THIS crap is what you decided to say to me.  Not substantive responses, but complete horseshit.  You're not worth this.  You have nothing.  God is fake man.  Sorry. 


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 16, 2011, 12:31:07 AM
Velkyn needs some evidence.
Well, if evidence is what you are looking for. I am going to ask you something.
When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it".
Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here.
You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police:
Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.
And Please, please do not waste your and my time coming up with stupid excuses like "There is no miracles so there is no God"or"Some ignorant christian guy named John failed to come up with an evidence, therefore "God doesn't exist".
Because if you do, I am gonna call you (IGNORANT) >:(

What would falsify god for you?

I can already tell you what would falsify atheism for me: the same kind of evidence needed to demostrate that refrigerators exists.

So what would falsify god for you?

Please be specific.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 01:27:55 AM
Sam, no I mean J E F F Are you on drugs?   
What the hell are you talking about when you say"my cat also seems to think you're not very good at this"
You need to stop talking to your cat and stop asking people for evidence, especially when you have no evidence.
That is my point that I am trying to achieve through you.
Did you follow my instruction to see reply#180? I told you that neither of us will have 100% evidence of God's existence.
And I told you it is only possible through the Words of God and the holy spirit.
I tell you again, you were demanding other people to come up with evidence when you have none, and conveniently get away with an excuse like "I can't prove something that doesn't exist, so I don't have to have an evidence"
Remember J E F F this is two way conversation. next time you should start reading other people's post more slowly and think about it at least 2 or 3 times before you hit the post button.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 01:30:25 AM
Aaron, it's you. glad to see you again.
Well man, don't you know I am still waiting for your answer?
You answer my question first, and we will go on to the next one OK?
BTW what's taking you so long?
Are you still reading the bible? good for you then
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 01:55:03 AM
And Jeff
You want to know my age?
Well I have been studying and preaching since you were about 4 years old.( don't worry many different countries and languages but no Canada yet)
So you do the math and guess how old I am.
And don't call me an old man because I could be preaching since 3 years old then it makes me 1 year younger than you.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 16, 2011, 01:58:17 AM
(Springy G delurks)

(smiles to Herself as She reaches for Her bag of D&D dice)

(rolls a D10 and a D4)

(Inflicts 1-10 Random Equipment Malfunctions on John and 1-4 individuals from his circle of family and friends, with assorted pieces of household machinery scheduled to go FUBAR at indeterminate times in the next month or so)

Can you prove I'm not a goddess, John?  ;D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 16, 2011, 03:27:59 AM
And Jeff
You want to know my age?
Well I have been studying and preaching since you were about 4 years old.( don't worry many different countries and languages but no Canada yet)
So you do the math and guess how old I am.
And don't call me an old man because I could be preaching since 3 years old then it makes me 1 year younger than you.
Your that old and yet to grow up?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 16, 2011, 06:13:12 AM
John 3 16,

Now you are trolling. Please see the rules.  

Maybe you can pray for guidance. What direction do you get when you pray for guidance on how to conduct yourself here? Would jesus behave like you are?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 08:01:57 AM
(Springy G delurks)

(smiles to Herself as She reaches for Her bag of D&D dice)

(rolls a D10 and a D4)

(Inflicts 1-10 Random Equipment Malfunctions on John and 1-4 individuals from his circle of family and friends, with assorted pieces of household machinery scheduled to go FUBAR at indeterminate times in the next month or so)

Can you prove I'm not a goddess, John?  ;D
I can't prove something that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 08:15:48 AM
John 3 16,

Now you are trolling. Please see the rules.  

Maybe you can pray for guidance. What direction do you get when you pray for guidance on how to conduct yourself here? Would jesus behave like you are?
Its you finally, I thought the coward isn't returning. :P
Please kindly explain to me where I how I trolled,
Is it you guys' rule to talk whatever (rude, slangs, disrepectfull...) you want and if a person trying to fight back it's not abiding the rules?
Would Jesus behave like me?, no absolutely, no.
If it was my Lord it would been done way better,
BTW, do you notice, you start sound like christian.
Oh one more thing I am still waiting for your apology on you mis-behaviouiourr(is that how you say in canada?)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 16, 2011, 08:22:42 AM
Did you follow my instruction to see reply#180? I told you that neither of us will have 100% evidence of God's existence.
And I told you it is only possible through the Words of God and the holy spirit.

And we've told you that's not good enough.  You even said that my example was a good one.  If it's only possible through the words of God and the holy spirit, then you've lost the battle already.  Because that's stupidity.  You could literally believe anything I told you if that were the case.  If I told you there was a giant pink bunny that walked around behind you every day and said that you could never find evidence for it, and you just had to believe in the words from some book that talked about giant pink bunnies, would that be good enough for you?  Why are you not understanding this?  I swear, stupidity is such a drain on humanity.  This is a simple concept and you're just not getting it.

I tell you again, you were demanding other people to come up with evidence when you have none, and conveniently get away with an excuse like "I can't prove something that doesn't exist, so I don't have to have an evidence"

It's not convenient.  In fact it sucks ass that I can't 100% prove you wrong.  The reason we can't prove you wrong is because your God has no characteristics that are measurable, testable, or in any other way detectable... just like other stuff that doesn't exist.  You've set it up that way because God isn't real.  The moment you put God in a measurable, testable light, you've lost.  Why?  Because its NOT REAL. 

Remember J E F F this is two way conversation. next time you should start reading other people's post more slowly and think about it at least 2 or 3 times before you hit the post button.

Jesus effing Christ you're a thick one.  Are you reading anything I tell you? I KNOW you can't prove God doesn't exist.  I KNOW there is no evidence for it.  I never said there was.  I've KNOWN that LONG before you showed up here you.  Everyone has.  But when you say you just have to believe what the bible and the holy spirit says, then I'm going to tell you no.  Do I need to go back to the blue sky leprechaun example again?   

I don't know which point you are trying to argue anymore.  You have no evidence that your God exists.  That's not an excuse.  When we have no evidence for things, just believing shit because you want to ISN'T ENOUGH to convince thinking people to believe like you do.  I could write a book right now that says giant invisible pink rabbits exist and that they walk around behind people every day.  Please answer this.... IS THAT ENOUGH to make you believe it's true, or would you demand more than that? 

There is no holy spirit.  God is fake.  Move on.   

You want to know my age?
Well I have been studying and preaching since you were about 4 years old.( don't worry many different countries and languages but no Canada yet)
So you do the math and guess how old I am.
And don't call me an old man because I could be preaching since 3 years old then it makes me 1 year younger than you.

That is massively embarrassing.  Honestly man.  You should be ashamed of yourself for this.  Studying?  lol.  What do you study?  What "degree" do you have?  Did you have a public school education?  Have you EVER seriously looked into the arguments against the Christian position?  Ever taken the time to honestly assess the question openly and honestly?  Or have you just been force fed this nonsense about the word of God and the holy spirit since you were little and you can't possibly see how you were wrong all these years?     

Well guess what?  You've been wrong for longer than I've been alive.  You preach a lie.  The whole thing... wrong.  God is NOT real. 

You want reasons to think that God isn't real?  Alright, here we go.

1. 29,000 children die every day from preventable causes. 
2. No miralces have ever been substantiated with serious evidence, just claims.
3. There are natural explanations for just about everything that we observe, and what we don't have natural explanations for, we don't have evidence on yet.
4. The bible is a mass of contradictions, errors and absurdities.  It talks of dragons, unicorns, people living in fish for days, people living to 900 years old, etc.
5. We have no idea who wrote the gospel stories.
6. The entire Christian religion is a bastardization of Jewish and pagan religions. 
7. There isn't a single thing you can prove about God.  Nothing.
8. Prayer doesn't work.  Period. 
9. Being a Christian offers absolutely no benefit to health or well being over those who practice another religion, those who practice no religion, or even those who practice satanism.
10. The more you know about science, the less God is needed to explain anything.  In fact, we don't need to postulate God to explain anything anymore. 

None of that is proof.  But it's just a smattering of reasons NOT to believe in God.  I could go on all day with this, but there's no need to.  God isn't real.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 16, 2011, 09:09:14 AM
I can't prove something that doesn't exist.

Now you show yourself to be a hypocrite.

Earlier, you wrote down:

When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it".
Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here.
You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police:
Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.


So prove that Astreja is not a goddess.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 16, 2011, 09:15:34 AM
Velkyn needs some evidence.
Well, if evidence is what you are looking for. I am going to ask you something.
When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it".
Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here.
You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police:
Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.
And Please, please do not waste your and my time coming up with stupid excuses like "There is no miracles so there is no God"or"Some ignorant christian guy named John failed to come up with an evidence, therefore "God doesn't exist".
Because if you do, I am gonna call you (IGNORANT) >:(

No this is very clearly an argument from ignorance, also referred to shifting the burden of proof. "We cannot know for sure either way, so you have to disprove" is exactly that. You are the one making a positive claim, the burden of proof is on you.

There's a reason the analogy of The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists...it is to show why the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim

See Also
Invisible Pink Unicorn
Dragon in my Garage
Fairies at the bottom of the Garden
Occam's Razor


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 16, 2011, 09:17:12 AM
(Springy G delurks)

(smiles to Herself as She reaches for Her bag of D&D dice)

(rolls a D10 and a D4)

(Inflicts 1-10 Random Equipment Malfunctions on John and 1-4 individuals from his circle of family and friends, with assorted pieces of household machinery scheduled to go FUBAR at indeterminate times in the next month or so)

Can you prove I'm not a goddess, John?  ;D
I can't prove something that doesn't exist.

And that's why you cant prove Jahweh. That's part of the the point she's making.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 16, 2011, 12:18:51 PM
Aaron, it's you. glad to see you again.
Well man, don't you know I am still waiting for your answer?
You answer my question first, and we will go on to the next one OK?
BTW what's taking you so long?
Are you still reading the bible? good for you then

I assume you're refering to this part of post 220.

Quote
now let me ask you A same question again.
I was hoping you would explain about"the sign of the prophet Jonah"part.

If so, I think I addressed this with post 216.  To copy and paste; "Sign" meaning things like evidences, visions, miracles, etc. from god.  What does it means to me personally?  Not a damn thing.  It's just a bunch of nonsense strung together by some guy that lived thousands of years ago. 


Otherwise, I'm not sure what answer you're looking for here.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on July 16, 2011, 01:13:13 PM
I can't prove something that doesn't exist.

So... Does that mean you finally get it? Or are you going to keep using your emotional attachment to YHWH in order to try to prove he is real?

I would respect your beliefs if you didn't come here preaching and acting like an idiot. It's too bad; it is only revealing what type of person you are in real life, which is really unpleasant. I wouldn't want to even slightly discuss with someone who is too daft to even slightly realize how foolish you look. If you can't even think before you type, I can only bet that you talk out of your ass every day.

Am I correct in assuming that you talk out of your ass, John 3 16? Could you please prove me wrong? I don't like seeing people that are burying themselves alive. That is, unless you are a narcissist. Then that would explain everything. I hope you are not one. From the beginning, I was simply lurking to see if you came up with intriguing responses as to why your god won't heal amputees. Unfortunately, you are too busy making failing trolling attempts, and hanging onto anything that could be used as a red herring so that you won't have to much of an effort to think and/or answer questions.

I have a question, and it's really beating a dead horse, and this is making a leap into the discussion, but even if your god were real, how would that make the Bible any better? How would make me a "good" person? Do I need the Bible to be good? How would it make me a better person? Why do you think this if the Bible is a insane person's perfect fantasy? [Read the Book of Revelations and all Bible stories]

Allow me to present to you what Satan actually looks like, according to the Bible, and to follow, what a cherub [the supposedly cute little babies with bows and arrows) should look like:

(http://www.pyramid-gallery.com/WomanAndDragon.jpg)

(http://www.bible-history.com/art/cherub9.jpg)

I gotta' admit, John: The cool factor is great and all, but this mythology's boring. Hinduism has much more interesting stories.

And the sex stories are steamy.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 01:20:12 PM
Aaron, Hatter,
Read my reply#180&#270
We won't have evidence either case, we won't know with our own head, only through the words and Holy spirit, that's how God created us, worms,...Etc.
man, my old fingers are getting tired of typing the same thing.
My job was finished there, I even mentioned "you do not have to believe if you choose not to".
By looking at your posts, it makes me think
Are you not understanding or are you having some kind of a competition "who wants to be the king of ignorance"
Aaron, I was waiting for your answer, (Sign of the prophet Jonah, what does that mean?, why would Jesus mentioned him, to them?)  I even mentioned it 2 or 3 times, but you are still avoiding my question, and keep coming up with new questions. You just say "I don't know" then, we can go on to the next one.
I am getting tired of this forum and Morons in this website.
People claiming -they know the bible, yet no one seems to know,
                        -they were Christians, yet  no one was able to tell me how to become a true one.
                        -whenever they run out of answers, they start  pouring slanderous posts to side track me
                        -keep saying "prove it" yet you can't prove anything.
                         (Remember I said, you should starting thinking about the people that are in between atheist and theist, if you are so proud and sure, then you better come up with something better than "HA, Christians couldn't provide evidence, therefore we won!!!" I have been around a lot longer and way more countries that ya' all. People will laugh at you if you say some thing that silly.
It's not that simple. we are not playing ping pong. it will not let you win if the other fails.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 01:27:33 PM
by the way, ladyamo
"I can't prove something that doesn't exist" that's what Jeff pt said originally,
I was just using this to show you how stupid it would sound, if I use it back to you.
So next time, before you post something, try reading all the posts, other wise you are making your own people look BAAAAD!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 16, 2011, 01:46:42 PM
.
I am getting tired of this forum and Morons in this website.

You are free to leave anytime.  And continuing to break our forum rules is not helping you much.  You agreed to the rules when you signed up, but if you're not interested in them, then by all means, please leave.

Jetson
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 01:57:07 PM
Thank you very much for your kind comment, I haven't had that for long time.
Yes I will leave if you can some how have your people stop slandering about my Lord.
Again, thank you.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Emergence on July 16, 2011, 02:09:05 PM
How could worms ever 'slander' a creator of all existence?

Also: Jetson, you apparently have people of your own now. :P

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 16, 2011, 02:49:47 PM
How could worms ever 'slander' a creator of all existence?

Also: Jetson, you apparently have people of your own now. :P

Yeah, I don't want people, I want minions to do my bidding!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 16, 2011, 02:51:39 PM
Thank you very much for your kind comment, I haven't had that for long time.
Yes I will leave if you can some how have your people stop slandering about my Lord.
Again, thank you.

The people on this forum are free to express their opinions as long as they follow the rules.  There are no rules that give your lord any protection from ridicule.  Of course, if God were real, he would not need you to protect him from the blasphemous atheists.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 16, 2011, 03:24:34 PM
Thank you very much for your kind comment, I haven't had that for long time.
Yes I will leave if you can some how have your people stop slandering about my Lord.
Again, thank you.
Outside of a 2 and 3000 year old books of fairy tales you have yet (and God himself) to prove he exists
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 03:26:59 PM
Thank you very much for your kind comment, I haven't had that for long time.
Yes I will leave if you can some how have your people stop slandering about my Lord.
Again, thank you.

The people on this forum are free to express their opinions as long as they follow the rules.  There are no rules that give your lord any protection from ridicule.  Of course, if God were real, he would not need you to protect him from the blasphemous atheists.
Who said "protection"? Are you condom sales person?
I said stop slandering. (Idiot, Bad English, mental capacity, learn more English, primitive......)
I know people like you , you say"We want peace, please leave" then as soon as I turn my back you throw a rock on the back of my head.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 16, 2011, 03:29:22 PM
Not a very good answer monkey.
You have to start thinking about the people that are somewhere in between atheist and theist.
What if they say "So if there is no pervert in the church, then it's an evidence that God exist?"

I dub thee IGNORANCE point one.
No I am saying God fails to do anything....he was SOOO interactive with his creation in the old days
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 03:42:40 PM
Thank you very much for your kind comment, I haven't had that for long time.
Yes I will leave if you can some how have your people stop slandering about my Lord.
Again, thank you.
Outside of a 2 and 3000 year old books of fairy tales you have yet (and God himself) to prove he exists
Sun, moon. universe, you, me, people, earth, ocean, waves, wind, thunder. Until you can prove how all these work with rock solid evidence, God exists.
FYI I know I can't. And God doesn't have to explain what is already there.
And He probably explained if we were able to understand.
Here is what Jesus wants to say
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin (John 15:22)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Morgan on July 16, 2011, 03:45:16 PM
Quote
I said stop slandering. (Idiot, Bad English, mental capacity, learn more English, primitive......)

That's a tad hard to accomplish since your posts lack any trace of clear, logical thought, and are horribly formatted. When our Ambassador gave you the friendly tip of coming back in 4-5 years was quite an useful one. I too used to hit the 'enter' key after each phrase, at the ripe old age of 12. Now, 4 years and 8 months later, I like to think that my written word is coherent, if not grammatically correct. Even if English isn't your first language[1], during your long years of study, shouldn't you have gained more insight in how to express your point by writing?

If the internet has taught me anything, it's that people who can't bother to type and formulate their thoughts correctly aren't the intellectual type. I really hate sounding like a Wise Teen TeacherTM, but I'm sure we'd communicate better if you at least tried better.
 1. Neither is mine, I'm from Romania
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 16, 2011, 04:10:29 PM
"I can't prove something that doesn't exist" that's what Jeff pt said originally,

This is a true statement.  You already agreed to it. 

I was just using this to show you how stupid it would sound, if I use it back to you.

Due to the nature of both positions, it IS a stupid argument if you toss it back at us.  It doesn't apply to your argument because you're making the positive claim.     

There's a giant difference between saying God does NOT exist and God DOES exist.  You see, if God did exist, you should be able to PROVE he does, because we CAN prove things DO exist.  See the difference?  So when you tout out the argument "prove God doesn't exist", we could give you literally thousands of reasons to believe God isn't real and establish a massive case of reasonable doubt, but there is no way to 100% disprove his existence.  It's impossible.  On the other hand, if God is real, there should be ways to prove it because God has characteristics that we could detect in our lives. 

You seem to have it in your mind that we have the same burden of proof that you have, but that's simply not true.  The burden of proof is on someone who is making the claim that something exists, not that it doesn't.  If you say God exists, and you can't prove it does, then you've already lost.  Saying some crap like we can only know god through the word and the holy spirit is just an excuse you use to cover up the fact that you have no evidence at all. 

Do you understand this?  Honestly I want to know if you get this.  If I say there is a giant pink bunny that follows you around all day, is it YOUR job to prove it doesn't exist, or MY job to prove it does?  It's obviously my job to prove it does.  And when I can't, if I were to tell you that I read a book once that talked about giant invisible pink bunnies, would that be enough for you to simply accept it?   Please respond to this paragraph.  I want to make sure you understand this.  I am hopeful that somewhere in your brain there is a section dedicated to logic and reason.  It may not have been accessed in quite some time, but try to find it.  When you do, dust out the cobwebs and listen to what people are telling you. 





Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 16, 2011, 05:04:11 PM
Aaron, I was waiting for your answer, (Sign of the prophet Jonah, what does that mean?, why would Jesus mentioned him, to them?)  I even mentioned it 2 or 3 times, but you are still avoiding my question, and keep coming up with new questions. You just say "I don't know" then, we can go on to the next one.

I gave my answer twice, in post 216 and 300.  "Sign" meaning things like evidences, visions, miracles, etc. from god. Otherwise, just a bunch of nonsense, etc etc...  How could I be avoiding it if I keep posting my answer? 

EDIT:

I gave my answers without looking it up, as suggusted in post 215, however, I had to in order to see what the context of the phrase is.  The bible says so much nonsense, it's very easy to forget some of them.   It explains right away what it's suppose to mean.  Jonah was in a big fish for three days and three nights, and Jesus is saying that he'll go through the same thing "in the heart of the Earth".  Then Jesus bables nonsense about evil spirits.

The bible writers were on some serious crack when they wrote it.



EDIT:  Missed this earlier.

Quote
Sun, moon. universe, you, me, people, earth, ocean, waves, wind, thunder. Until you can prove how all these work with rock solid evidence, God exists.
FYI I know I can't. And God doesn't have to explain what is already there.
And He probably explained if we were able to understand.

This is nothing more than an argument from ignorant, coupled with the god of the gaps.

Seriously, read a science book.  You might learn something.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 16, 2011, 05:16:35 PM

Do you understand this?  Honestly I want to know if you get this.  If I say there is a giant pink bunny that follows you around all day, is it YOUR job to prove it doesn't exist, or MY job to prove it does?  It's obviously my job to prove it does.  And when I can't, if I were to tell you that I read a book once that talked about giant invisible pink bunnies, would that be enough for you to simply accept it?   Please respond to this paragraph.  I want to make sure you understand this.  I am hopeful that somewhere in your brain there is a section dedicated to logic and reason.  It may not have been accessed in quite some time, but try to find it.  When you do, dust out the cobwebs and listen to what people are telling you.

Bear with us folks, we've had to moderate his Royal Trollishness.  Moderators will approve his posts as long as they are not direct troll responses, or exceedingly pointless preaching.  At the time of this message, he has no outstanding posts awaiting approval.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 16, 2011, 08:12:26 PM
Thank you very much for your kind comment, I haven't had that for long time.
Yes I will leave if you can some how have your people stop slandering about my Lord.
Again, thank you.
Outside of a 2 and 3000 year old books of fairy tales you have yet (and God himself) to prove he exists
Sun, moon. universe, you, me, people, earth, ocean, waves, wind, thunder. Until you can prove how all these work with rock solid evidence, God exists.
FYI I know I can't. And God doesn't have to explain what is already there.
And He probably explained if we were able to understand.
Here is what Jesus wants to say
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin (John 15:22)
You get your degree at the Bill O'Rielly school of science? Westbroo baptist church? Your arguement is RETARDED. Why do you refuse to grow your knowledge of how the world works.....Being Haida the Raven brought us the Moon,Sun,Tides,wind,thunder,universe,oceans,food. Until you have ROCK SOLID evidence,The Raven exists!!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 08:56:10 PM
There's a giant difference between God and giant pink bunny that follows you around all day.
Only one thing in common, invisible.
Giant bunny is invisible because it does not exist.
God is invisible because if we ever see Him with our naked eyes, we will die instantly(because of our sin)
Yeah yeah I know you won't believe without an evidence
Remember that worm story? How would you make them believe? (Yeah yeah I know you won't believe)
Just simply won't believe. Now I know why there was a Prophecy  "Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?(Isaiah53:1)
It was a good experience with you.
Looks like you believe you will disappear after you die and that's it.

So, have a good happy life because life is short.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 16, 2011, 09:11:31 PM
God is invisible because if we ever see Him with our naked eyes, we will die instantly(because of our sin)

Yeah yeah I know you won't believe without an evidence

See my Sig, courtesy of you.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 16, 2011, 09:57:38 PM
There's a giant difference between God and giant pink bunny that follows you around all day.
Only one thing in common, invisible.

Hmm. No, let's add a few more things to the list, shall we? Invisible pink bunny and God are both...

Omnipotent, omniscient, unseen, unheard, untestable, unmeasurable, they don't respond to commands, they don't do miracles, they don't make contact with people in any testable way, they are both uncreated, do nothing when you pray to them, you can't smell them, touch them or taste them, and the biggest one... the only way you can POSSIBLY believe in them is through faith (otherwise, there's absolutely no reason to believe they are real.) 

Giant bunny is invisible because it does not exist.

Interesting thought!  Maybe you're getting somewhere here.  Answer me this... If God were not real, would that explain why He's invisible?  Think it through, think it through.... there you go... a little more.  Are you seeing it now? 

God is invisible because if we ever see Him with our naked eyes, we will die instantly(because of our sin)

Can you point to the biblical phrase that tells you this is true?  Otherwise, that's just really cute.  Like... 5 year old cute.  Sounds like God's got a Buzz Lightyear laser too.

Or, or, or, what if God isn't real?  Just like the giant bunny?  Could that be a valid explanation as to why we can't see him with our eyes?   We just went over this. 

Yeah yeah I know you won't believe without an evidence

Correct! And neither should you. 

Remember that worm story? How would you make them believe? (Yeah yeah I know you won't believe)

If I were God, and I knew everything about everything, the one thing you could be sure of is that I would know how to make worms believe in me.  That much would be super easy.  There are trillions of ways for God to make people aware of his presence through reason, logic and evidence. 

Just simply won't believe.

Here's where you are wrong.  I believe in a shit load of stuff.  My criteria for belief in ANY other realm of knowledge is probably pretty similar to yours (well, maybe not yours, but pretty average with the rest of the world).  I believe in evolution.  I believe in molecular theory.  I believe that the earth goes around the sun.  I believe that the sun is a star.  I believe 2 + 2 is 4.  Hell, I even believe you exist because you're talking to me here.  All of these things have something in common.  Know what it is?  Evidence.  The reason I don't believe in God is because there is no evidence.  It's that simple.  If you have it, present it.  If not, then understand that I think you're a fool for believing it. 

It was a good experience with you.

I can't say the same.  Sorry.  Beliefs like yours are what's wrong with the world. 

Looks like you believe you will disappear after you die and that's it.

What I believe, or wish to happen after I die has no bearing on what actually WILL happen.  The same goes for you.  You and I may believe very different things about the afterlife... but nobody really knows what will happen.  I have come to the conclusion that I will simply cease to exist and that doesn't scare me in the least, but I can not say that for sure.  You, on the other hand, must worry about the looming possibility of hell.  Oh, yes.  Hell for you.  Or are you thinking you are one of the Christians that will make it to heaven?  HA!  From what you've done here in being such a poor representation of your God, he's probably on the hotline to Satan right now telling him to put another log on the reserved spot for you "down there". 

So, have a good happy life because life is short.

Given the sentiments of your other posts, this is not at all what you wish for any of us.  You want God to smite our asses to hell.  Don't you remember telling me not to cry when I was being burned?  Yeah, I thought so.  You're God is fake.  Totally fake.  You're entire life... wasted on a lie.  If it wasn't so sad, I'd be laughing at you. 

Sun, moon. universe, you, me, people, earth, ocean, waves, wind, thunder. Until you can prove how all these work with rock solid evidence, God exists.

I couldn't resist this one.  I know you are all going to think I'm wasting my time here, but here goes anyway. 

Ok, the sun is a star.  It works on a process called "fusion".  During fusion, a hydrogen atom is split and that releases massive amounts of energy.  This process happens as a result of gravity crushing down at the center of a star, causing the atoms to break apart and release the energy.  Before a star is born, gravity (I hope your smart enough to understand gravity already) causes the hydrogen to clump together in bunches, and as the bunches get bigger, they attract more matter, and it snowballs over a really long time until the forces at the center get so powerful that the atoms start to split and then fusion takes over from there.  No need for God.  Gravity does all the work.

The moon is currently thought of as a product of a very old planet making contact with what was a pre-earth ball of rock.  The explosion caused massive amounts of debris to be thrown off.  The planet that was left (earth) still have a good amount of mass, which caused the debris from the explosion to enter into orbit around the earth.  Over time, just like a star, the matter began to combine together (through gravity) and eventually became our moon.  No need for God.  Gravity does all the work.  BTW, Mars has 2 moons, Saturn and Jupiter have a lot of them.  Neptune has 4, and I forget how many Uranus has. 

You, me, and people would take a lot longer to describe to you, but to sum up... humans are an evolved species of social animal with our niche being higher intelligence and shared learning.  We're animals, make no mistake.

The earth we already talked about a bit.  It formed from the left over interstellar dust that was here once the sun began to burn.  No need for god.  Gravity did the work.

The ocean doesn't "work" per se.  It just is.  Water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen, 2 elements that are in massive abundance throughout the solar system and beyond.  It achieves liquid form when the proper circumstances come about.  It's in solid, liquid, and gas form on our planet but only in gas and ice form elsewhere that we know of (although there has been some interesting research into some of the moons around the gas giants where water may lie in liquid form under thick sheets of ice). 

Waves and wind I will do together.  Since our planet spins around an axis, and since air has physical properties, wind is generated as a result.  Just like if you stick your arms out and spin around in a circle, you notice the increased forces of the air on your arms and that's the same thing that happens with wind.  There is also a component of the water cycle that comes in to play as well, but I'm doing this off the top of my head so I forget.  Waves happen when the wind blows on them, when something moves the water, or when the moons gravity pulls on the water as it passes by in orbit.  If you don't understand waves, go into your bathtub, fill it up, lean down and put your hand in the water.  Congratulations! You too can create waves!!  No need for God.

Thunder is the sonic boom that accompanies a lightning strike.  As lightning strikes, it breaks the sound barrier, thus creating a sonic boom.  Just like a jet does when it passes the sound barrier. 

These things are not difficult to understand naturally.  BTW, anyone else feel free to chime in here with how these things work.  I didn't look any of that up, I just remember it from... well... science classes. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 10:15:00 PM
to LadyAmorosaLuckyDulce and Astreja
Please take my apology.
I failed to act responsibly, It seemed everybody was throwing rocks at me earlier.
I had really bad experience long time ago, surrounded by people, it was a near-death experience.
So something must have triggered in me and I admit, I lost my temper.
Even worse, Pony was putting it all my fault being ignorant, lack of education, and bad English...
And simply justifed their rudeness by saying "you deserve it"
And how would you feel if someone call your dad or mom names.
My Lord is my Father in heaven. So I was seriously offended there.
That's my excuse.
I am sorry.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 16, 2011, 10:16:37 PM
There's a giant difference between God and giant pink bunny that follows you around all day.
Only one thing in common, invisible.
Giant bunny is invisible because it does not exist.
God is invisible because if we ever see Him with our naked eyes, we will die instantly(because of our sin)

God is invisible because it does not exist.
Giant Pink Bunny is invisible because if we ever see Him with our naked eyes, we will die instantly(because of our sin)


There is no difference between your original phrase and the altered one.  The continuous need to excuse an all-powerful being from doing nothing is further evidence that it does not exist.  Your god-being had no problem showing himself to people thousands of years ago, but is now camera-shy.  Quite funny for an omni-max being, but makes perfect sense for a fictional character.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 16, 2011, 10:22:52 PM
And to you Jeff.
I am sorry I lost my temper. earlier
Jesus is my Lord and I won't change my mind even if I had to die. Because He loves me and died for me. How I know? because I met Him in person.
And it seems you won't change your mind either. 
So I Will stop bothering you.
Let's just stop wasting each others time.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 16, 2011, 10:57:10 PM
There's a giant difference between God and giant pink bunny that follows you around all day.
Only one thing in common, invisible.
Giant bunny is invisible because it does not exist.
God is invisible because if we ever see Him with our naked eyes, we will die instantly(because of our sin)
Yeah yeah I know you won't believe without an evidence
Remember that worm story? How would you make them believe? (Yeah yeah I know you won't believe)
Just simply won't believe. Now I know why there was a Prophecy  "Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?(Isaiah53:1)
It was a good experience with you.
Looks like you believe you will disappear after you die and that's it.

So, have a good happy life because life is short.
Jesus if you accept him as your lord absolved you of ALL sin
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Bagheera on July 16, 2011, 11:31:34 PM
There's a giant difference between God and giant pink bunny that follows you around all day.
Only one thing in common, invisible.
Giant bunny is invisible because it does not exist.
God is invisible because if we ever see Him with our naked eyes, we will die instantly(because of our sin)
Yeah yeah I know you won't believe without an evidence
Remember that worm story? How would you make them believe? (Yeah yeah I know you won't believe)
Just simply won't believe. Now I know why there was a Prophecy  "Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?(Isaiah53:1)
It was a good experience with you.
Looks like you believe you will disappear after you die and that's it.

So, have a good happy life because life is short.

So God can't appear before our naked eyes without us dying?

Two problems:

  In the bible he shows people his ass, and they lived.

If he can't appear before us without us dying, that means theres something he can't do... Which means he's not omnipotent, and therefore not "God", just "a god".

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 16, 2011, 11:32:56 PM
John 3 16,

Now you are trolling. Please see the rules.  

Maybe you can pray for guidance. What direction do you get when you pray for guidance on how to conduct yourself here? Would jesus behave like you are?
Its you finally, I thought the coward isn't returning. :P
Please kindly explain to me where I how I trolled,
Is it you guys' rule to talk whatever (rude, slangs, disrepectfull...) you want and if a person trying to fight back it's not abiding the rules?
Would Jesus behave like me?, no absolutely, no.
If it was my Lord it would been done way better,
BTW, do you notice, you start sound like christian.
Oh one more thing I am still waiting for your apology on you mis-behaviouiourr(is that how you say in canada?)

This is the response after prayer?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Bagheera on July 16, 2011, 11:33:05 PM
...and anyone wanna correct Jeff's homework? Some off those answers ain't right either.  :P
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 17, 2011, 06:51:53 AM
...and anyone wanna correct Jeff's homework? Some off those answers ain't right either.  :P

Please do!  Like I said, all of that was off the top of my head.  Learning is good for us all. 

Unless of course you say... God did it.  :) 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 17, 2011, 08:25:09 AM
You are not exactly getting it, are you John 316? You don't believe in Giant Invisible Pink Bunny, and declare that, in the absence of evidence, that it doesn't exist.

Why because the burden of proof is on the positive statement.

Now tell me, why should we differentiate between your "god" and Invisible Pink Bunny. Do so without resorting to a logical fallacy. If you do not, you are no different than a person talking about invisible pink bunnies...and you are admitting you have nothing.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on July 17, 2011, 08:55:06 PM
John 316 said that he believes in god because he has met him. Therefore we should also believe. If I said I had met the Giant Pink Bunny, would that be enough evidence for John 316 to change his life and start worshipping it? I suggest he rent the movie Harvey with Jimmy Stewart and watch it. Pretend that Harvey is really god. Why don't Jimmy Stewart's relatives believe in Harvey/god? Jimmy says he met him.... &)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on July 17, 2011, 08:59:42 PM
BTW I think John 316 owes Jeff PT a response to all the science 'splainin'. If we can't explain it there must be a god, right? So what if we can explain it? Does that mean there is no god? Because god is not needed? (Even though that is pretty weak as an argument...my doggies can't explain how the sacks of dog food appear in the house, but that doesn't mean it happens by magic!) :D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 17, 2011, 10:49:55 PM
to LadyAmorosaLuckyDulce and Astreja
Please take my apology.
I'll think about it.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 17, 2011, 11:41:44 PM
BTW I think John 316 owes Jeff PT a response to all the science 'splainin'. If we can't explain it there must be a god, right? So what if we can explain it? Does that mean there is no god? Because god is not needed? (Even though that is pretty weak as an argument...my doggies can't explain how the sacks of dog food appear in the house, but that doesn't mean it happens by magic!) :D
To some people, Just explaining A  with B that God created does not solve the problem because they were both created by God.
Just a quick example, When Jeff said "gravity does all the work" then I going to say "I know gravity", if I let go of an apple out of my hand it will hit the floor, then  someone else will ask "how does gravity work"? "Where does it come from"  "can you make gravity?" it's kinda silly, but it can go on and on.
hopely, that made sense
 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 18, 2011, 07:02:15 AM
^not even a little.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 18, 2011, 08:21:38 AM
OK one more try.
I was saying "things needed to be explained", because I want to point out, eventhought we have science we still don't know a lot of things.
For example, human blood, 
We know how it works, what the contents are (cells and plasma), how much we need, but how do we make cells, plasma, or even.  Can we manufacture single drop of blood?
I have seen a lot of people "I do not need God" but when they face tragedies, they get down on their knees and pray.
If this still doesn't make sense, I give up.
MY lack of English :) you know.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 18, 2011, 08:44:25 AM
For example, human blood, 
We know how it works, what the contents are (cells and plasma), how much we need, but how do we make cells, plasma, or even.  Can we manufacture single drop of blood?

I really wish believers would check on things like this before asking such questions.  The answer, friend, is yes, we can make blood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Zankuu on July 18, 2011, 09:10:47 AM
Since pianodwarf clued you in on artificial blood, I'll touch on the other point in your post.

I have seen a lot of people "I do not need God" but when they face tragedies, they get down on their knees and pray.

What does that prove? You're talking about believers that most likely blame a deity for some problem in their life, reach a point where they think it can't be handled alone, then try and gain support from said deity.

I've dealt with two extremely unpleasant situations since becoming an atheist and I didn't once consider seeking help from a god. People can walk just as well without the crutch of the supernatural.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 18, 2011, 09:18:29 AM
For example, human blood, 
We know how it works, what the contents are (cells and plasma), how much we need, but how do we make cells, plasma, or even.  Can we manufacture single drop of blood?

I really wish believers would check on things like this before asking such questions.  The answer, friend, is yes, we can make blood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute
Thanks for the info.
I honestly couldn't read the whole thing, but it sounds like mixing or manipulating multiple stuff together and make artificial blood.
Like "water" (H2O) -----hydrogen + oxygen =Water
Then question arises, who gave you oxygen? "can you make oxygen?
Maybe yes? with bunch of molecules? Where did you get those?
Did you create it? or found what was there already(Given by God)
see it can go on and on.
Plus, did you read "the side affects"
It is certainly great invention of something artificial and substitute for blood.
But, I wouldn't say "we made blood" yet
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: gonegolfing on July 18, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
OK one more try.
I was saying "things needed to be explained", because I want to point out, eventhought we have science we still don't know a lot of things.
For example, human blood, 
We know how it works, what the contents are (cells and plasma), how much we need, but how do we make cells, plasma, or even.  Can we manufacture single drop of blood?
I have seen a lot of people "I do not need God" but when they face tragedies, they get down on their knees and pray.
If this still doesn't make sense, I give up.
MY lack of English :) you know.


You could have the best english going, but that wouldn't change it for you. We get where you're headed wth all this, and so even bad english won't save you from ridicule. Some of the best people in theism have walked away from here an angry, confused, and defeated mess after trying to "explain" their faith to rationalists.

Anyone can explain anything anyway they want. But here at WWGHA, we want things proved to be true, not just subjectively interpreted and "explained".

You're too lazy to investigate and find that, Yes, blood can be manufactured ! And yet you want us to believe you're claim that 2000 yrs. ago a legend in his own mind, who uses an ancient children's story about a whale, spent 3 days dead in the belly of the earth only to rise again alive ?!

Get serious! ....... The "whale of a tale" is next to impossible according to the knowledge that we now have of whales and large fish, and the jeebus claim is impossible, therefore both stories can be considered untrue as real events.

Of course we don't know some things. But that does not mean that you automatically fill that gap with a supernatural fictitious character who has a grab bag of magic tricks.....(God did it !!)


Quote
Thanks for the info.
I honestly couldn't read the whole thing, but it sounds like mixing or manipulating multiple stuff together and make artificial blood.

Then don't bother making a judgement on it !


Quote
Did you create it? or found what was there already(Given by God)
see it can go on and on.

It sure can go on and on and on ...........Who gave us god then ? What created god ?

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Morgan on July 18, 2011, 09:32:21 AM
Thanks for the info.
I honestly couldn't read the whole thing, but it sounds like mixing or manipulating multiple stuff together and make artificial blood.
Like "water" (H2O) -----hydrogen + oxygen =Water
Then question arises, who gave you oxygen? "can you make oxygen?
Maybe yes? with bunch of molecules? Where did you get those?
Did you create it? or found what was there already(Given by God)
see it can go on and on.
Plus, did you read "the side affects"
It is certainly great invention of something artificial and substitute for blood.
But, I wouldn't say "we made blood" yet
We can't 'get' any chemical element from scratch, as matter isn't simply created. We can, however, get oxygen from water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water) and other chemicals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator).

I don't know about you, but I'd rather worship stars (http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/geochem/02txt.html) because they're pretty cool and they don't hate women, science, or non-heterosexuals.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 18, 2011, 09:35:03 AM
yes, we can make blood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute

I honestly couldn't read the whole thing, but it sounds like mixing or manipulating multiple stuff together and make artificial blood.

Basically, yes.  It's not perfect, but the science is in its infancy.  Future versions of artificial blood will be better.  Things like this always improve over time.

Not sure how old you are, but when I was a kid, there was a huge brouhaha over Louise Brown, the world's first "test tube baby".  Today, in vitro fertilization is routine, and no one thinks anything of it.  We're now starting to see the same thing with other medical advances such as artificial blood and artificially grown organs using stem cells.  Within our lifetimes, such things will become completely routine as well.  I'm not a futurist, but I'd be willing to hazard a guess that things like growing your own replacement organs will be commonplace within the next twenty or thirty years.

Quote
Then question arises, who gave you oxygen? "can you make oxygen?
Maybe yes? with bunch of molecules? Where did you get those?
Did you create it? or found what was there already(Given by God)
see it can go on and on.

This is basically a restatement of the First Cause argument, isn't it?

Quote
Plus, did you read "the side affects"

I just scanned it.  As young as the technology is, I'd be very surprised if there weren't side effects.


Quote
It is certainly great invention of something artificial and substitute for blood.
But, I wouldn't say "we made blood" yet

Please re-read the last word there.  Several times.  I can all but guarantee you that medical science will figure out how to make "real blood" before too terribly long.  We're already starting to grow organs from stem cells.  There's no reason that a similar procedure couldn't be used for blood as well.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: gonegolfing on July 18, 2011, 09:54:28 AM
For example, human blood, 
We know how it works, what the contents are (cells and plasma), how much we need, but how do we make cells, plasma, or even.  Can we manufacture single drop of blood?

I really wish believers would check on things like this before asking such questions.  The answer, friend, is yes, we can make blood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute
Thanks for the info.
I honestly couldn't read the whole thing, but it sounds like mixing or manipulating multiple stuff together and make artificial blood.
Like "water" (H2O) -----hydrogen + oxygen =Water
Then question arises, who gave you oxygen? "can you make oxygen?
Maybe yes? with bunch of molecules? Where did you get those?
Did you create it? or found what was there already(Given by God)
see it can go on and on.
Plus, did you read "the side affects"
It is certainly great invention of something artificial and substitute for blood.
But, I wouldn't say "we made blood" yet

One more thing:

It appears that you may be interested in science ?

Well let me ask..have you read at least two good science books from any atheist scientists ?

Any at all from Carl Sagan ?  Neil deGrasse Tyson ? Victor Stenger ? Richard Dawkins ? Dan Dennett ? or any other great atheist science writers ?

If not, then you need to shut the fuck up until you do........It's both annoying and painful to watch, when theists come in here and tie themselves into mental knots when they start talking about scientific things that they know nothing about.

Cheers  ;D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: gonegolfing on July 18, 2011, 10:08:25 AM


Quote
I don't know about you, but I'd rather worship stars (http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/geochem/02txt.html) because they're pretty cool and they don't hate women, science, or non-heterosexuals.

Exactly ! And after all they are our maker  ;)

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jtk73 on July 18, 2011, 10:32:44 AM
Velkyn needs some evidence.
Well, if evidence is what you are looking for. I am going to ask you something.
When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it".
Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here.
You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police:
Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.
And Please, please do not waste your and my time coming up with stupid excuses like "There is no miracles so there is no God"or"Some ignorant christian guy named John failed to come up with an evidence, therefore "God doesn't exist".
Because if you do, I am gonna call you (IGNORANT) >:(
Define your god (in detail) and I will prove the it does not exist.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 18, 2011, 10:40:55 AM
John,

you explained it in a way that I could at least understand what you were saying.  However, I am still missing your point. Are you making an analogy?  Or are you making an argument?

Take some time, gather your thoughts and make a coherent post please.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 18, 2011, 10:49:18 AM
"If not, then you need to shut the fuck up until you do........"
Very scientific, Golf gone wild :)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on July 18, 2011, 11:05:43 AM
But, I wouldn't say "we made blood" yet

Your incredulity is irrelevant, logic doesn't care what you are emotionally willing to accept or reject.

Even if you were given the benefit of the doubt, you've made no argument that logically follows into your conclusion.  You are presenting what is called a non-sequitir, where even if we bothered to take you seriously.. it still doesn't reasonably lead anywhere.  The issue I have is that this kind of fallacy is so simple to point out, how could you possibly not know immediately what is wrong with the argument you're trying to make?

How does not knowing where X come from have to do with Y existing?

Why do I even have to dumb it down to this level to point how ridiculous your argument is?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 18, 2011, 11:10:21 AM
People can talk about science, and relate scientific evidence while using profanity. Objectively, it takes nothing away from the ideas themselves whatsoever. It is, however, something someone can latch onto in order to ignore the information presented, or mask the fact that their understanding is limited.

Here is an example:

1) Fucking water molecules are composed of 2 fucking hydrogen atoms and one goddamn oxygen atom, for the love of cock-sucking christ.

2) Water molecules are composed of 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.    

Same fucking information.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 18, 2011, 11:38:32 AM
Very nice represantation for your website. And for yourself.
Or is it yours'?
Now I can finally see this forum's quality.
OK Bye
Ambassador horny.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on July 18, 2011, 11:42:14 AM
Very nice represantation for your website. And for yourself.
Or is it yours'?
Now I can finally see this forum's quality.
OK Bye
Ambassador horny.

More like you'll concentrate on a characteristic of little consequence, ignore anything of informative value, and conclude upon what you've assumed from the very beginning.

Curious.. why not call yourself John 3:18?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Zankuu on July 18, 2011, 11:51:52 AM
Curious.. why not call yourself John 3:18?

And since Ambassador is so horny, why not call him Ezekiel 23:20-21?  :?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 18, 2011, 12:06:05 PM
Very nice represantation for your website. And for yourself.
Or is it yours'?
Now I can finally see this forum's quality.
OK Bye
Ambassador horny.

And once again you miss, probably deliberately, the salient point and contrate of irrelavent deatails and word twisting.

And you never did seperate you "god" from the invisible giant bunny. This only proves to me you had nothing. How amazing NOT A SINGLE THEIST can actually come up with a logical proof.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: gonegolfing on July 18, 2011, 12:30:47 PM

"If not, then you need to shut the fuck up until you do........"
Very scientific, Golf gone wild :)

Now Now !!   ;D

I was being very serious.....You didn't answer my question...Have you read any scientific works from any atheist scientists ?

This may sound strange, but doing so will actually help sharpen your arguments in the process, and will do so as a result of you not only knowing your side of the debate, but also having a better understanding of the opposing side as well  ;) People who debate should have a strong grasp of both sides of the issue which allows them to make meaningful and coherent points and arguments.

To come here and try to debate the god hypothesis without some understanding of science is asking too much of us  ;)  Not to mention causing you embarrassment if you try and do battle.

Science will almost always come into the debate at some point, and so going in unprepared, is going to be extremely tough on you.

Again, if you haven't read some then you need to stifle yourself with regards to science, get yourself up to speed as best you can, and just hope(and pray?) that some are willing to hang in there with you and your personal feelings, baseless assumptions, dodging, and preaching until your better prepared.

Most wont tolerate unpreparedness for long.

Cheers
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 18, 2011, 12:41:43 PM
Velkyn needs some evidence.
Well, if evidence is what you are looking for. I am going to ask you something.
When you say "there is no God". I will say "prove it". Please just don't conveniently say you can't prove something that doesn't exist.
I already know you THINK "God doesn't exist" but you know, just to think doesn't count here. You have to come up with evidence. (Man! I am starting to sound like atheist)
 
Sure.  In that your bible claims that there is a god with certain attributes, this god should follow through on its promises, yes?  It doesn’t.  Thus your god doesn’t exist as claimed.  Any claims of how I’m not interpreting the bible right, or that your god is “mysterious” and has some “plan” are just adding things to excuse the inaction, and thus non-existence of your god.  I have a book with promises and claims that fail.  What do you have?
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So you just can't say "I can't prove something that doesn't exist" (HI. Jeff PT) :police: Your answer should have some bullet proof evidence.
So prove it.
And Please, please do not waste your and my time coming up with stupid excuses like "There is no miracles so there is no God"or"Some ignorant christian guy named John failed to come up with an evidence, therefore "God doesn't exist".
Because if you do, I am gonna call you (IGNORANT) >:(

John, you can call me a platypus but that doesn’t make it true. So lie all you want, Christains seem to like bearing false witness.  Your attempts at trying to already excuse your god are amusing and using exactly what I expected. In the bible your god makes promises and claims.  These promises never come true and the claims are not supported by any evidence they ever happened.  We are left with either your god doesn’t exist or your god doesn’t exist as the bible claims it does, making it wrong. Which do you prefer, John?  You having the wrong god or the bible is a lie? Being that this is the only source of information on your god, if it is wrong, there is no evidence for your god at all since you cannot trust it since you cannot know which parts might be good and which aren’t. It all comes down to the usual cherry-picking that all Christians do to make up their very own god. 

Now, let’s look at another religion and put your claims in that context. I like the religion of the ancient Egyptians so I’ll use that.  Ptah is the creator of the universe.  Ptah exists I know he does!   Ptah is mentioned in a book so it’s real.  My friend believes in Ptah too.   Ptah answers my prayers, but only to his will.  Ptah only does miracles according to his will so praying won’t always get what is asked for. Ptah works in mysterious ways so we will never understand why he allows evil to exist.   

Do you see that Ptah is just the same as your god?  Probably not since you think you have the right answer in Pascal’s Wager. 


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on July 18, 2011, 03:44:46 PM
by the way, ladyamo
"I can't prove something that doesn't exist" that's what Jeff pt said originally,
I was just using this to show you how stupid it would sound, if I use it back to you.
So next time, before you post something, try reading all the posts, other wise you are making your own people look BAAAAD!

Again, are you really that daft that you can't understand the significance of proving something that doesn't exist? Your god has no evidence of it existing, other than through your own emotions and looking at things that are beyond your understanding, or rather, things you'd rather not want to understand and make life seem extremely cryptic. There is nothing stupid about the phrase, other than through your own delusional view of the phrase.

I read all your posts, and you simply come off as a troll who can't even make one legitimate argument for your own god. As others have said before, I've seen better theists, who are actually honest and willing to discuss, rather than mindlessly preach without any new substance to think about. You only make theists look bad, and are making people on here less and less willing to convert to your own religion. It's bad that you are not realizing that your own idiocy is preventing you from being able to discuss, let alone convert, any atheist on here.

You have not made a case for your god. You are making yourself look bad. Either you make a case for your god, or you don't.

By the way: You have yet to answer the questions I made towards you. All I want is answers and not the same cryptic statements I tend to get from the occasional mindless theist [not implying that all theists are mindless and incapable of being insightful, because there are such theists, but unfortunately, it seems that that theist is not you]. You are required to answer the questions made towards you so that I will listen to you and perhaps convert to your religion, that is, if you can prove that it is the OneTrueReligionToRuleThemAllTM. I'm more than willing, but it seems that you are not-so willing to try to convert people, and as if you're doing this on purpose to deconvert the viewers of this website. If that's your goal, I have to congratulate you for deconverting more people from any religion.

I don't deconvert people. People like you do by simply posting on here the same nonsensical responses. So, give me something that makes sense. Again, I would appreciate it if you did answer my questions as to provide new substance so that I can think about it, only if you are willing to discuss.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 18, 2011, 06:28:06 PM
HI lady amorosaluckydulce.
Again, I am sorry for being so rude to you.
Straight to answer, I myself have no evidence, nothing.
Long time ago, I met my Lord, He showed me His light, and revealled Himself.
I truly wish I had something I can physically show you or logically makes sense, but my God said what I have is enough. What we see and know isn't everything.
He told me "I gave my one and only Son to the world, why should I prove anything more"
You probably don't believe me, but that's OK. Just remember what I told you.
I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.
Someday, my Lord will reveal Himself to you, like He did to me.
Then you will know what I was talking about.
I have seen So many God's people give up some or all they have. And gladly become God's servants and do God's work for the rest of their lives, do you think all those people are just religious crazy?
There are the ones that saw God's light and the truth.
For us, believing is not an option, it is a matter of life and death, for eternity.
If you were walking down the street and saw someone drowning in a lake and you happened to have a rope, what would you do? I couldn't picture myself just walk away.
I was doing the same thing here.
It's OK to laugh at me, but just think about it, If you were me, wouldn't you be doing the same thing?
 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 18, 2011, 06:32:59 PM
If you were walking down the street and saw someone drowning in a lake and you happened to have a rope, what would you do?

I'd drop the rope as fast as I could and call 911 with my cell phone, since a drowning person probably can't grab the rope, and even if they did, it wouldn't keep them afloat.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 18, 2011, 06:44:19 PM
Even if it was your own kid?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 18, 2011, 06:44:41 PM
I have seen So many God's people give up some or all they have. And gladly become God's servants and do God's work for the rest of their lives, do you think all those people are just religious crazy?

Actually, yes.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 18, 2011, 06:46:22 PM
You shut the F*%k up.
-Pony said it is OK
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 18, 2011, 06:47:35 PM
Even if it was your own kid?

Why would the laws of physics, or the known problems associated with drowning persons, be any different if it was my own "kid"?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 18, 2011, 06:51:57 PM
You shut the F*%k up.
-Pony said it is OK

I'm picking my Red Pony-Phone as we speak. It's a direct line to him.

Have you ever heard of our ER board? We just recently started using it again (today). Might want to check it out John.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 18, 2011, 07:17:20 PM
Long time ago, I met my Lord, He showed me His light, and revealled Himself.

In most states, that's a felony.

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He told me "I gave my one and only Son to the world, why should I prove anything more"

The thing is, though, he hasn't even proved that.  The historicity of Jesus is controversial and becoming more so all the time.  For my own part, pretty much all I'm willing to admit is that there may have been a man named Jesus who called himself the son of god and had followers who were completely convinced that that was true.  Unfortunately, that's also an accurate description of David Koresh, so it doesn't really prove anything.

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Someday, my Lord will reveal Himself to you, like He did to me.

So what's he waiting for?

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I have seen So many God's people give up some or all they have. And gladly become God's servants and do God's work for the rest of their lives, do you think all those people are just religious crazy?

Not necessarily.  Most Christians these days don't really even know what they believe in.  They have read little or none of the bible and are so illiterate about their own religion that, according to Stephen Prothero's book, "Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know -- And Doesn't":

1)  Fewer than half of Americans can identify Genesis as the first book in the bible.
2)  Only one-third know that Jesus delivered the sermon on the mount.
3)  75% of Americans believe that the bible says, "God helps those who help themselves."  (It doesn't.)
4)  Just over ten percent believe that Noah's wife was Joan of Arc.  I am not making this up.
5)  Only half of Americans can name even one of the four gospels.
6)  Fifty percent of high school seniors believe that Sodom and Gomorrah are a married couple.  Again: I am not making this up.
7)  Nearly 25% of Americans believe that Moses was a disciple of Jesus.
8 ) Less than 40% of Americans can name at least five of the Ten Commandments.

So those who are ignorant can be excused.  Well, sort of.  They can't be excused for insisting that the bible is the "word of god" when they don't even know what it says, but they can't be called mentally ill for that reason, either.

Then there are those who are like most of the atheists on this site: they started off as believers, then lost their faith when they read the bible and realized what a monster Yahweh is.  These people aren't crazy, either.  They're sensible.

Those who have read the bible and continue to insist, for example, that Yahweh is a god of perfect love?  Yeah, I'd have to say that that's indicative of some form of mental illness or something.  Maybe Stockholm Syndrome, where you start to sympathize with the terrorists who have taken you hostage.  Or the battered wife who believes that her husband beats her only because he loves her.

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For us, believing is not an option, it is a matter of life and death, for eternity.

Ah, Pascal's Wager.  Gotta love it.

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If you were walking down the street and saw someone drowning in a lake and you happened to have a rope, what would you do? I couldn't picture myself just walk away.

Of course you couldn't.  You would try to do something to help because you're a decent human being.  Just out of curiosity, though... isn't this irrelevant?

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I was doing the same thing here.

No, you weren't.  According to the bible, human beings aren't "drowning in a lake".  They are being held underwater by someone who says he will deliberately drown them unless they love him and worship him.

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It's OK to laugh at me

I don't need your approval for that, but it's nice to know that I have it.

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but just think about it, If you were me, wouldn't you be doing the same thing

No, because your analogy is seriously flawed.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 18, 2011, 07:58:26 PM
You shut the F*%k up.
-Pony said it is OK

You asked a question, I answered it, and you tell me to STFU?

Care to explain the logic here?  Oh right, there isn't any.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 18, 2011, 09:03:54 PM
Straight to answer, I myself have no evidence, nothing.

If this is the case, do you find fault with us not believing you?  If so, why?

Long time ago, I met my Lord, He showed me His light, and revealled Himself.

Explain to me, why we should simply swallow that nonsense?  If I said to you that I once me the giant pink bunny, would you take me seriously or laugh in my face? 

It's all in your head man.  You've been indoctrinated.  Brainwashed. Bamboozled.  Whatever you want to call it.  You never met God because God isn't real.

I truly wish I had something I can physically show you or logically makes sense, but my God said what I have is enough. What we see and know isn't everything. He told me "I gave my one and only Son to the world, why should I prove anything more"

He didn't give his only son to the world.  If the story is true, then He sent him down for a few years, had a bad few days toward the end, then went home to the greatest place in the universe.   The only way God could have "given his son to the world" as some sort of sacrifice would be if Jesus was either dead or in hell.  Those are you only 2 options for a true sacrifice.  Otherwise, it was nothing. 

You probably don't believe me, but that's OK. Just remember what I told you.
I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.
Someday, my Lord will reveal Himself to you, like He did to me.
Then you will know what I was talking about.

Either that, or you are delusional and everything you said here is simply incorrect. 

I have seen So many God's people give up some or all they have. And gladly become God's servants and do God's work for the rest of their lives, do you think all those people are just religious crazy?

Somewhat, yes.  Crazy might be a bit harsh of a word for it, though.  Probably more like a cross between incorrect and extremely gullible. 

If you were walking down the street and saw someone drowning in a lake and you happened to have a rope, what would you do? I couldn't picture myself just walk away.

Who could?  It's human nature to help drowning people.  But did you ever stop to think that maybe it's YOU that's drowning here?  Of course not, right?  You couldn't POSSIBLY be wrong, right?  No, not you. 

The bottom line is that either you are correct, we are correct, or neither of us is correct.  You know nothing of the arguments against your position, yet you proudly come in as if we need "saving" and try to tell us, with NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that there's an invisible man in the sky who supposedly loves us yet at the same time treats entire swaths of us like shit, and that we are supposed to worship it because... because it says so?   If that's your idea of a helping hand, then you need your head examined. 

That rope you want to toss to the drowning man?  It's attached to a cinder block.  You're not helping people, you're just bringing them dragging them down into the same delusion you've been shackled to. 

You really COULD be wrong here, you know.  And if the entirety of your evidence is... zero... then be honest with yourself and realize that the problem here might really be yours, not ours. 

It's OK to laugh at me, but just think about it, If you were me, wouldn't you be doing the same thing?

That's just the thing though.  We're not drowning!  We're doing better than you!  YOU'RE the one drowning.  You have no CLUE what is going on in this world.  An understanding of the natural world has completely passed you by, and you don't even want to stop and take a look at the things that really CAN be proven.  Just look at some of your posts!  You question things about nature that all have readily available answers, yet you don't bother to look for them.  Why?  Have you lived that sheltered a life?  Don't you care what the truth is?  Don't you ever stop to consider that the people you are talking to here are more than just people who hate God, and that they may really have good reasons to doubt God's existence?  Well we DO have good reasons.  One of them, you readily admit to... that you have no evidence.  Don't feel bad about it though.  There's a few billion Christians out there, plus a billion Muslims, plus a crap load of other religious people... all of whom are part of that same club with you.  They don't have evidence either.

We don't want your help.  In fact, we'd like to help you, but you're never going to be interested in that.  You're too far gone now.  You're trapped in a deep hole and you don't even know where to begin to climb out.  You will live out the rest of your days ignorant to the wonders of the natural universe that exists all around you; cocooned in your own fantasy world where you've created an invisible sky man that watches over you lovingly.  We are free of such nonsense, and you wish to bring us down with you.  No thank you.  You need to be saved from the delusion that you're saved.   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 19, 2011, 06:57:14 AM
Long time ago, I met my Lord, He showed me His light, and revealled Himself.

what exactly does this mean?  Describe it.  Do not use metaphors.  Do not dress it up in poetic language.

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I have seen So many God's people give up some or all they have.

How many is "So many"?  And giving up "some" really does not impress me. "Some" anything other than "none". Those are weasel words.

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do you think all those people are just religious crazy?

yes.

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For us, believing is not an option,

For us either.  I get weary of believers acting as if belief in god is easy as pie or a choice.  "What?  You don't believe in god?  Shuh.  It's obvious god exists.  What are you, some kind of moron?" 

Even when I did believe, I did not find it easy.  And when I became an atheist, it was not by choice. I just realized one day that I did not believe anymore.  I could not make myself go back and believe in god though I tried.   

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 19, 2011, 08:46:27 AM
Someday, my Lord will reveal Himself to you, like He did to me.
Then you will know what I was talking about.
  I always like the claim of “someday”.  Why not today, John?  Why not when I was losing my faith and praying to God to help me keep it?  As always, your promises are just as worthless as your bible’s.
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I have seen So many God's people give up some or all they have. And gladly become God's servants and do God's work for the rest of their lives, do you think all those people are just religious crazy? There are the ones that saw God's light and the truth. For us, believing is not an option, it is a matter of life and death, for eternity.
just like the Heaven’s Gate people said.  So yes, I also think they are severely deluded.
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If you were walking down the street and saw someone drowning in a lake and you happened to have a rope, what would you do? I couldn't picture myself just walk away.
I was doing the same thing here.
  No, you weren’t.  You were looking for external validation of your particular beliefs.  You want to preach and have everyone say oooh, John is right!  You are not interested in actually discussing anything, demonstrated by how you have ignored my post in reply to your “prove it” demand.  I’m not surprised about that at all.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 19, 2011, 10:13:17 AM
No, you weren’t.  You were looking for external validation of your particular beliefs.  You want to preach and have everyone say oooh, John is right!  You are not interested in actually discussing anything, demonstrated by how you have ignored my post in reply to your “prove it” demand.  I’m not surprised about that at all.

Also telling was his only response to me was twisting my words. Not a thing about all the examples of why shifting the burden of proof is intellectually dishonest. No logical refutation of my charge of special pleading.
He keeps admitting, through his failure, that he cannot give a good reason to believe in Jahweh.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 19, 2011, 11:22:17 AM
to velkyn
I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.
Like I said I am just a messanger, letting you know what God wants to say to mankind.
And again, I have no physical evidence to show you, my Lord said some will listen some won't to fulfill the Prophecy.
Remember the movie "matrix"?
If you want to know THE TRUTH you have to take at least one pill.
It is you who choose which pill to take. Before you make a decision, you won't know, no one is able to explain.
So are you ready for the truth?
Make a decision now, open your mind, accept Christ as your saviour, believe the word of God.
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

I have a feeling this is going to be my last post :'( :'( :'(

TO rest of you brats, "don't even think about posting pill joke", cause I've heard of them enough, it's not even funny anymore.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 19, 2011, 11:48:35 AM
John, planting seeds takes patience, knowledge / ability, and a great deal of care. You haven't planted seeds. What you've done is salted the earth with your selfish, self-centered, egotistical, ignorant blathering. Anything to glorify yourself.

One can have knowledge about how to plant a seed; when, how, and where to do it, or, one can just throw seeds on the ground, piss on them, talk about how awesome they are and how they don't need any of that "education" or "caring" to plant seeds, they'll just do it however they want, whatever leads to more glory for themselves. That has been you, here, for the past week.

That you are unable to comprehend how ridiculous you've behaved, or incapable of evaluating objectively the results of your interactions here, does not make you any less of an example of how disgustingly humans can be made to behave, under the right conditions.

Some might look at your pathetic history here, and feel some sort of pity for you, and your offspring. Some will look at it as an education into religious delusion, but one thing is for sure, no one is going to read your posts and think anything but those two things.

I think I fall into both categories, I am thankful that you can't apprehend the depths of your own base behaviour. I wouldn't wish that humiliation on anyone. Remember, everyone who believes differently than you should be completely ignored, they are all conspiring against you with their "facts" and "science", and you have the one for realsies truth.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 19, 2011, 12:06:03 PM
to velkyn
I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.
  aka, it’s not my fault if I fail again and again. It’s God’s magic plan. Nice seeing you take no responsibility there John, for your continued failure.
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Like I said I am just a messanger, letting you know what God wants to say to mankind.
Like so many other Christians. Funny how God gives you all contradictory messages to give to mankind.  And funny hwo God magically agrees with all of you, according to your claims.
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And again, I have no physical evidence to show you, my Lord said some will listen some won't to fulfill the Prophecy.
No, that’s not what he said at all. He supposedly said that he will make sure some cannot accept him in order to use them as examples. This is quite the act of your god, making sure that some are intentionally damned through no fault of their own.  So much for a just and fair god. 

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Remember the movie "matrix"?
If you want to know THE TRUTH you have to take at least one pill.
It is you who choose which pill to take. Before you make a decision, you won't know, no one is able to explain.
I love it, using the Matrix movies.  I was a Christian before, though I know you are just too happy to commit false witness by trying to say I was not.  I took the pill and not so strangely, the pill was shown to be wrong by reality and by the non-actions of the supposed God behind the pill of Christianity. 

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So are you ready for the truth? Make a decision now, open your mind, accept Christ as your saviour, believe the word of God. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
  Golly, John, I’ve prayed and prayed for your god to preserve my faith when I had it.  I have prayed to him to reveal himself to me like Thomas and as to so many other Christians who have claimed now that I’ve lost my faith.  Not surprisingly, I’ve seen nothing of your god.  Why is this, John?  You’ve yet to answer this.  Why does your magic recipe fail continuously, just as your attempts to plant “seeds”?  Could it be that your god doesn’t like you and wants you to fail?  Perhaps God likes me just as I am and indeed approves of it?  Or could it be that your god doesn’t exist at all? 

And one could only hope this is your last post.   

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on July 19, 2011, 12:09:42 PM
I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.

Speaking of planting, we should plant your butt right into this forum's Emergency Room board for posting such empty drivel.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 19, 2011, 12:26:30 PM
to velkyn
I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.
Like I said I am just a messanger, letting you know what God wants to say to mankind.
And again, I have no physical evidence to show you, my Lord said some will listen some won't to fulfill the Prophecy.
Remember the movie "matrix"?
If you want to know THE TRUTH you have to take at least one pill.
It is you who choose which pill to take. Before you make a decision, you won't know, no one is able to explain.
So are you ready for the truth?
Make a decision now, open your mind, accept Christ as your saviour, believe the word of God.
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

I have a feeling this is going to be my last post :'( :'( :'(

TO rest of you brats, "don't even think about posting pill joke", cause I've heard of them enough, it's not even funny anymore.

Poetic language does not an argument make, no more than profanity destroys fact. Sweet words are only a measure of politeness, which is one of the best way to sell a falsehood. Look at a cigarette commercial for verification.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on July 19, 2011, 01:36:32 PM
to velkyn
I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.
Like I said I am just a messanger, letting you know what God wants to say to mankind.

Appeal to woo.


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And again, I have no physical evidence to show you, my Lord said some will listen some won't to fulfill the Prophecy.

So you admit that you have nothing but fancy words.


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Remember the movie "matrix"?

Yeah.  A bit overhyped, but decent.


Quote
If you want to know THE TRUTH you have to take at least one pill.
It is you who choose which pill to take. Before you make a decision, you won't know, no one is able to explain.
So are you ready for the truth?


Many of use used to be christians.  We took the truth pill.  It led to atheism.


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Make a decision now, open your mind,

We did.  We opened our minds to the possibility that no gods exists.


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accept Christ as your saviour, believe the word of God.

Been there, done that.


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Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

The truth leads to atheism.


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I have a feeling this is going to be my last post :'( :'( :'(

*Yawn*  You said this four or five times already.  Either mean it or don't say it at all.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on July 19, 2011, 01:45:20 PM
Like I said I am just a messanger, letting you know what God wants to say to mankind.

Right, because only you have determined not only that a god exists but the correct informative context of the message that that god wishes to deliver.  There is absolutely nothing dishonest and arrogant about the statement above.

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And again, I have no physical evidence to show you

Physicial not required, any evidence at all would suffice.

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my Lord said some will listen some won't to fulfill the Prophecy.

Of course, everyone that doesn't confess that jesus hasn't come in the flesh is a liar and an anti-christ.

So let's see:

1. Claim special knowledge that cannot be objectively known.
2. Insist that that special knowledge is true without evidence.
3. Dehumanize other human beings for not believing in that claim, evoking the claim of 'special knowledge' as exactly confirming that people would not believe without evidence.
4. Rinse, repeat.

How do I tell the difference between your religion ( supposedly the true religion ) and a religious cult?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on July 19, 2011, 05:37:38 PM
HI lady amorosaluckydulce.
Again, I am sorry for being so rude to you.
Straight to answer, I myself have no evidence, nothing.
Long time ago, I met my Lord, He showed me His light, and revealled Himself.
I truly wish I had something I can physically show you or logically makes sense, but my God said what I have is enough. What we see and know isn't everything.
He told me "I gave my one and only Son to the world, why should I prove anything more"
You probably don't believe me, but that's OK. Just remember what I told you.

Satisfactory enough from a theist. I don't mind your beliefs, keep them. However:

I just plant the seeds, it's my Lord that make them grow.
Someday, my Lord will reveal Himself to you, like He did to me.
Then you will know what I was talking about.

This is not only unsatisfactory, but it's unnecessary. You do not know me. I do not know you. Don't say things like that.

I have seen So many God's people give up some or all they have. And gladly become God's servants and do God's work for the rest of their lives, do you think all those people are just religious crazy?

Not every theist is a fundamentalist. However, I have a problem with people like you, who try to force others to try to convert into your religion through excessive preaching, whilst threatening the person with eternal condemnation because they don't hold your belief of something invisible. And by the way, now that you bring up the people that do God's work, how about those people in Africa who are Christians that condemn children for being witches? They are doing God's work.

Don't argue for the people that you disagree with when it comes to "God's work". If your god were real, the world would be uglier.

There are the ones that saw God's light and the truth.
For us, believing is not an option, it is a matter of life and death, for eternity.
If you were walking down the street and saw someone drowning in a lake and you happened to have a rope, what would you do? I couldn't picture myself just walk away.
I was doing the same thing here.
It's OK to laugh at me, but just think about it, If you were me, wouldn't you be doing the same thing?

Me being an atheist has NOTHING to do with whether I would save someone. Believe it or not, the meaning of life is whatever you make it out to be. You build your own meaning to your life. I would sacrifice myself for anyone in deep need. I always wish I could help everyone in the world, but unfortunately, people die every day. Does that mean life is meaningless? Again, life is whatever you make it out to be. And no god has to be involved in anybody's life in for their life to be meaningful, unless the person makes it so by thinking it.

It's fine to believe that maybe there's some "greater being" out there, but I am not OK with what you are doing.

To answer your question, back when I was a theist, I would have not done the same thing as you. Instead, me being an open-minded person, I read this site, listened to my atheist boyfriend (now husband), and well, made my own judgement call. Do I want to believe in something that makes no sense other than through my own emotions, or do I stop it by cutting off the emotional attachment? Would it make my life better? It made my life better by knowing that there is no creepy imaginary stalker watching me every day. It's like when I was 6-years old and I thought there were live skeletons in my bedroom.

In other words, you are not "saving" anyone here. You are just annoying by preaching nonsense. If you were willing to discuss, which goes TWO ways, not just one, then things would be just peachy.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 19, 2011, 09:06:28 PM
Like I said I am just a messanger, letting you know what God wants to say to mankind.
I, for one, do not believe you when you claim to speak for a god.  I prefer to deliver My messages in person, but if for some reason I did need a mortal to speak on My behalf it would be someone with the following qualities:


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If you want to know THE TRUTH you have to take at least one pill.
No, I think truth doesn't require props.

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So are you ready for the truth?
Make a decision now, open your mind, accept Christ as your saviour, believe the word of God.
On the contrary, I choose to reject Christ as I consider it immoral to allow someone else to die in My place.

What if accepting the alleged sacrifice of Jesus is actually the Mark of the Beast, and Christianity is an elaborate test to find people who will do the right thing even at peril of hellfire?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 19, 2011, 11:33:10 PM
LOL it sounds like your looking for a match on eharmony
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 19, 2011, 11:55:08 PM
LOL it sounds like your looking for a match on eharmony
;D It does, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Zankuu on July 20, 2011, 05:39:37 AM
Someone forgot to take their meds...
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 20, 2011, 05:51:42 AM
Someone forgot to take their meds...

NVM the troll. He/She comes here every once in a while and posts his/her very detailed and perfect[1] debunking of this website
I'm surprised everyone here hasn't converted already :P
 1. Note: Sarcasm
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Zankuu on July 20, 2011, 05:58:43 AM
NVM the troll. He/She comes here every once in a while and posts his/her very detailed and perfect[1] debunking of this website
I'm surprised everyone here hasn't converted already :P
 1. Note: Sarcasm

By the powers of the spirit of Nostradamus within me, I'm sensing this cluster-fuck of a post was created by Dave Mabus.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 20, 2011, 11:44:42 PM
By the powers of the spirit of Nostradamus within me, I'm sensing this cluster-fuck of a post was created by Dave Mabus.
Nah.  If Dennis Markuze was behind this mess, the thread would be littered with Depeche Mode videos and pictures of animals with extra legs.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 21, 2011, 08:41:06 PM
By the powers of the spirit of Nostradamus within me, I'm sensing this cluster-f**k of a post was created by Dave Mabus.
Nah.  If Dennis Markuze was behind this mess, the thread would be littered with Depeche Mode videos and pictures of animals with extra legs.

It was him, for sure.  But we delete his nonsense as soon as we can.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 22, 2011, 12:04:42 AM
It was him, for sure.  But we delete his nonsense as soon as we can.
Mea culpa -- I thought Zankuu was referring to the OP.  :P
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Bagheera on July 22, 2011, 01:09:14 AM
By the powers of the spirit of Nostradamus within me, I'm sensing this cluster-f**k of a post was created by Dave Mabus.
Nah.  If Dennis Markuze was behind this mess, the thread would be littered with Depeche Mode videos and pictures of animals with extra legs.

It was him, for sure.  But we delete his nonsense as soon as we can.

Good job. That was a fast response. Almost too fast: along with Astreja, I too thought Jetson was referring to the op, because I never saw D.M. 's post.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on July 27, 2011, 10:05:59 AM
If you were walking down the street and saw someone drowning in a lake and you happened to have a rope, what would you do?

I know you're trying to draw a comparison between this analogy and your own actions, but you seem to be completely unaware that this isn't what you're doing.

Here is a more correct analogy:

You're walking down a road and see some kids playing in the water, suddenly you run screaming down to the edge of the river screaming about dangerous marflargs in the water!  The kids look around but have no idea what you're talking about, which of course they ask you to explain what you're talking about.  You begin hurling heavy stones out into the river screaming for the kids to get on the rocks as if they were rafts.  The kids watch the stones sink to the bottom of the river and ask again what is this marflarg thing, where is this marflarg thing, and demand that you show this 'danger' to them.   You began to tell the kids if they don't believe you, its their fault and whatever happens to them because of the marflargs happens.  The kids, now puzzled and slightly insulted, question your honesty and sanity.  You then condemn the children as being in league with with nefarious leprechaun Bolsheviks.

John, to be plain, there is no reason to believe your religious mythology.  Stories are not evidence, fear is not a reason to imagine things to exist without warrant to do so, and you're not throwing anyone life rafts here.  Your throwing stones, that sink to the bottom of the river, because you're not coherently conveying anything to be understood to be saved from much less any of the other nonsense that accompanies such magical belief.  Also, condemning those that do not believe your religious fantasy as being in league with antagonistic elements of your religious fantasy does not convey any kind of argument to believe.  It is disingenuous, arrogant, condescending, and insulting; a complete package of dehumanizing nonsense meant to dismiss people who do not believe in your religious fantasy.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 27, 2011, 07:46:57 PM
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (Matthew24:37-41).
I have no power or authority to condemn anybody, anyway.
I am not threatening anybody, anyway. Choice is yours.
I am a messanger, delivering a message, not mine but God's.
Let me tell you again, choice is yours, no debating, no discussing.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on July 27, 2011, 08:04:23 PM
Let me tell you again, choice is yours,

No it isn't.  I can't 'choose' to believe what I have no reason to believe, that would be the psychological definition of delusional.

Why would you claim that I have a choice for what I clearly do not?

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no debating, no discussing.

You're absolutely right, you're not conveying any kind of informative basis to choose anything.  Instead, you're ignoring contradictory elements of your belief system, and engaging in a polemical condescending tit for tat exchange where somehow you think 'preaching' means anything to anyone else.  I guess it never takes you back that this is the kind of behavior we expect out of cults, that is a complete disinterest in reasonably supporting an assertion and instead wholesale dogma portrayed against a series of emotional dependencies that no one else except you shares.

Why is it that you can't spread the word of your religion without requiring others to lie to themselves or to be suffering from some mental instability?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 27, 2011, 08:10:36 PM
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (Matthew24:37-41).
I have no power or authority to condemn anybody, anyway.
I am not threatening anybody, anyway. Choice is yours.
I am a messanger, delivering a message, not mine but God's.
Let me tell you again, choice is yours, no debating, no discussing.


John 3 16,

Preaching is not allowed on this forum.  If you don't want to discuss a topic, and would rather just preach to everyone, you will have to do that on some other forum.  If I have to warn you again about this, you may find yourself in a more heavily moderated state until the preaching stops. 

Jetson
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on July 27, 2011, 08:14:31 PM
HOLD UP!
One quick question before you shut me up.
Quoting from the bible is "preaching"
And quoting from a science book is "the facts"?
Are science books your bible?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 27, 2011, 08:16:53 PM
HOLD UP!
One quick question before you shut me up.
Quoting from the bible is "preaching"
And quoting from a science book is "the facts"?
Are science books your bible?

Go read the forum rules, and take your concerns to me via PM.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 27, 2011, 08:17:14 PM
John 3 16,

Darth Vader is a real life person living on a space station right now, or he isn't. Choice is yours, but you'll suffer for eternity if you choose "not real". A made up consequence doesn't change the answer does it?

Listen, John 3 16, I know this stuff is all you have in your life, that without it everything seems like it's shit, but that has no bearing on it's validity. Maybe misery loves company, or it just makes it more real to you if you go on like this, but I think you need to move on and spread your words of wisdom to other forums on the internet. Maybe a catholic forum, a mormon forum, or even an islamic forum.

All those people need your truth so they can also choose.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on July 27, 2011, 08:25:50 PM
Quoting from the bible is "preaching"

Yep.

Quote
And quoting from a science book is "the facts"?

Yep.

Quote
Are science books your bible?

Nope, the bible is not 'fact'.  Science operates as a distinct methodology of objective analysis and self correction.  It encompasses an enormous body of work subjected to constant rigorous analysis and challenges, it requires logical explanations to follow from hypothesis to observed predictions and finally theory.  Science is not a 'belief' system, nor operates as an epistemology comparable to religion.

The bible is a random series of cultural beliefs that many different religions interpret solely as their preferred religious doctrine.   Interpretation from the bible is purely random, the only inherent value is the arbitrary selection of scripture and what predetermined conclusion you want to draw from it.  It takes absolutely no analysis, study, or any kind of training to make random stuff up out of the bible.  Religion is a belief system, operating as an epistemology inseparable from make believe.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on July 27, 2011, 09:03:20 PM
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Yea verily, as 'Noah' is a mythological entity, so is 'the coming of the Son of man.'

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For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage... {snip completely unfounded booga booga Bible threats}
We want something more substantial than a few lines from a book of mythology.

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I have no power or authority to condemn anybody, anyway.
Correct.

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I am not threatening anybody, anyway.
False.  You are deliberately using your mythology to attempt to bully people into belief.  You are verbally and psychologically abusing people with fear of your invisible friend.

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Choice is yours.
Is that so?  I choose against Christianity, against salvation, and against you, John.

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I am a messanger, delivering a message, not mine but God's.
I disagree vehemently.  You are the messenger for a belief system that should have been stillborn nearly 2000 years ago.  You are the messenger for a belief system that saw My ancestors' kin tormented into conversion or burned alive in their own houses in Norway 1000 years ago.

You are the messenger for an imaginary god, but the message that you carry is a plague and an assassin's bullet, not a blessing.  There is nothing in your beliefs that I want.

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Let me tell you again, choice is yours, no debating, no discussing.
By My blood, My sweat and My tears, and in honour of every man woman and child who has been abused by Christianity and its plague dogs, I choose against... Now and forever.

Pray to your god to come get Me and take Me to your mythical hell, John.  Right here and right now.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 27, 2011, 09:17:17 PM
HOLD UP!
One quick question before you shut me up.
Quoting from the bible is "preaching"
And quoting from a science book is "the facts"?
Are science books your bible?

low....

hanging....

fruit....
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 28, 2011, 09:34:40 AM
HOLD UP!
One quick question before you shut me up.
Quoting from the bible is "preaching"
Yes, continued use of quotes without backing them up or discussing the logical consequences would be, but as extensive quotes from, lets use a particularly bad atheist book, the Atheist Manifesto would also qualify.


And quoting from a science book is "the facts"?
Are science books your bible?

No they aren't due to one very singular difference: anything in them can be and HAS BEEN overturned by new evidence: See Phrenology, Philogiston theory, Aether theory, Spontaneous generation theory, The Music of the Spheres, The Heliocentric universe model, etc.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 28, 2011, 09:38:10 AM
I am a messanger, delivering a message, not mine but God's.
Let me tell you again, choice is yours, no debating, no discussing.
Funny how all Christians claim that they are "only" saying what God "really" meant.  In that they do not agree, I'm waiting for this god to get off its backside and show me which Christians are the real ones.  Where are those miracles that were promised as a way to be able to distinguish followers of JC from non-believers? 

If it were truly a choice, this god, if it really wants me to believe and if is truly good,  would have no problem with showing itself to me, since I doubt it exists.  But if it refuses, and all evidence points to the likelyhood that it doesn't exist, it's not a choice at all. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on July 28, 2011, 10:31:29 AM
no debating, no discussing.


So you are admitting that you are here to preach...will not listen to what we have to say; you are no more than just an advertisment, a walking billboard, with no will of your own. Basically, Spam.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Historicity on July 28, 2011, 11:48:57 AM
Let me correlate 2 of John 3:16's posts:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16695.msg431683.html#msg431683 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16695.msg431683.html#msg431683)
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For us, believing is not an option, it is a matter of life and death, for eternity.

and

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16695.msg434599.html#msg434599 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16695.msg434599.html#msg434599)
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...Choice is yours.
...Let me tell you again, choice is yours,...

"Option" is synonym for "choice".

If you can choose to believe then we are talking about self-hypnosis.  Also, the choice becomes arbitrary.  You could choose to believe in the correspondences of Ceremonial Magic.  Green is the color of the goddess of vegetation.  Venus' color is green.  Venus came from the island of Cyprus from which the Romans derived the word "cuprum"  that is copper.  Copper is the metal of Venus.  Copper corrodes to a green color.  These are not poetical coincidences!  They are underlying spiritual correspondences.  You can see it all if you only believe!

So John 3:16 can choose to believe which is his admission that he is very suggestible.  He can choose to believe something and can't understand anyone who is not that suggestible.

Why does he choose to believe this Christianity?  In the first quote he admits he does so because he is scared of going to Hell.

So, I compliment him on his diffuse restatement of Pascal's Wager (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager).

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Graybeard on July 28, 2011, 12:50:50 PM
Like I said I am just a messanger, letting you know what God wants to say to mankind.
No, you are letting us know what you want us to know of your own opinions and using the authority of a mythical being to do it.

And before you accuse me of being hard-hearted, there is plenty enough evidence to show that this is what the religiously[1] deluded do.
 1. It is also common amongst the messianic in any organised group
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: anon0404 on July 29, 2011, 05:51:28 AM
Hello. I'd like to throw in my two cents, if I may.

I am not religious by any stretch. Nor am I atheist. By definition, that would make me agnostic, though in actuality I strive for nihilistic ideals. What I mean by that is that I have a belief structure, however I am aware that it is fallible and I am not afraid of being proven wrong. I actively seek out counterpoints to what I feel is right and always take them into consideration. I don't necessarily agree with or believe in everything that is said to me, though I always respect the fact that another person's beliefs are as sacred to them as mine are to me.

To anyone taking the time to read this, you are welcome to feel however you want about this post. All I ask is that you keep an open mind about it. Nothing I'm stating is fact. This is just what I've gathered from a short, twenty-four year existence:

If you were to ask whether I thought God was real, my answer would be probably not. At least not in any way that any major religion has described "Him." However, I find "Why won't God heal amputees?" to be a rather poor argument for questioning "His" existence. To an extent, it works as a counterpoint to some major religions, especially Christianity, but it's missing one key belief that religion has. There's that old saying about how the Lord works in mysterious ways, and that God has a plan for each of us. Therefore any answered prayers would coincide with that plan, and by Christianity's logic, the limb you lost is a part of that plan, so, sorry, but it won't magically regenerate. Extremist sects would say that God is punishing you for your sins and you deserved it, that it should be a sign for you to repent.

I get that the argument presented by the question, "why won't God heal amputees?" is in direct response to quotes from the bible stating that prayers will be answered no matter what. If that's the case, though, then why is there war and poverty? Praying for peace on Earth is much more common than asking for lost limbs back, and history shows us that that is not the case. I read several pages of this website, but what I'm reading between the lines for all of it can be summed up as follows: "My life is not perfect. Therefore, there is no God." I feel this is website represents a very self-righteous view on God's existence, or lack thereof. The Book of Job would be the counterpoint to the logic that "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" brings up.

Unanswered prayers are not a very strong basis for debating the existence of an all-powerful being that created existence in the first place. It focuses too much on "Why" and not enough on "How." My questioning of the existence of God is based on scientific evidence versus the convenient shortcuts presented by the bible. But most of the Christians I associate with are actually well aware of and accept science as a valid contribution to society and existence. They don't take the bible as fact, but as an inspiration for what they feel is righteous. When you get right down to it, there are few, few, people in this world that can honestly say they have never felt inspired or touched by something that somebody else has written.

As far as I'm concerned, the bible takes some standpoints that I just cannot agree with. The main one is faith. I don't believe an unquestioning faith in God is a necessity to live righteously. My concern is not over the afterlife, but to do the best I can with what I have here and now. And if there is an afterlife, I feel that should be enough. If it is not, then I'm prepared to burn in Hell for eternity so long as I live righteously on Earth.

I feel that if there is a Hell, it is filled with people who committed sins because they knew they could pray for forgiveness afterward. I should elaborate on this: Humans are weak, we are stupid, and we are all guilty of doing terrible things to one another at certain points. There is a difference, however, between those who truly feel remorseful for the occasional atrocities they commit and those who knowingly and regularly commit acts of evil because a prayer and/or ten "Hail Marys" a day will absolve them of any sin. One of my main reasons for not believing in what religion has to say about God is that I was guilty of being the latter of those two when I was younger and crazier. I eventually came to the realization that this did not make me a good person, and I stopped praying for forgiveness, just continued to be evil. The guilt came naturally after over a decade of a self-destructive spiral that gradually ostracized me from everyone I cared for. Without denouncing religion and eventually hitting bottom for a while, I never would have had the pieces to pick up to turn into a better person.

In my current state of existence, there is no place for God. However, I have also seen how the belief in such a concept can do a world of good for other people. It's all in the context of how you look at it.

For anyone that doubts religion, consider the idea that God could exist outside of all the preaching. Consider the idea that everything science has proven is true, and that God is merely there to perpetuate it. Consider that God could be natural rather than supernatural. Our entire existence could be outlined in numbers and equations. What if God was merely infinity, or an ongoing formula for the existence of time, space, and matter that humanity couldn't begin to comprehend in its current state?

Take into account the legend of the Tower of Babel, wherein humanity tried to reach God and nearly destroyed itself in the process, and compare it to the current global climate, the weapons of mass destruction resulting from innocent scientific discoveries, and how badly it could all end if warfare takes precedence over the advancement of our species.

The answers are all right in front of us, but they allow us just as much potential to destroy as they do to create. Destruction only sets us back, however, whereas creation opens up a whole new spectrum of answers to find. And for every answer there are more questions. Science advances exponentially, so I would say, from a logical standpoint, that if there is a God, it is a sum of all these answers.

And that if it did create us, it was merely so that we could grow. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 29, 2011, 06:15:13 AM
@anon,

Or...you truly missed the point of the website.  While the original author may have had a purpose, which we may never know, the website does something very important - it drives discussion.  And it does this around a single important point.  That being that the god that millions of people believe in, is pure mythology.

The question does not consider the possibility of a god, rather, it completely refutes the one that is supposed to be the creator of the universe, and the one that offers humans eternal salvation, as well as consistent answered prayers that are indistinguishable from natural occurrence, or coincidence.

No amount of agnosticism, or consideration of the possibility of a god, nor special pleading towards the idea that a god is possible, will make this question problematic or even slightly challenging.  This question strikes directly into the center of a delusion, and splits it into a billion pieces, in one fell swoop.

You are still young, which means you have more time to consider the world around you, and determine what really matters to you.  Maybe religion will never be a part of your life, or maybe one day you will find Jesus and get saved, who knows.  But in the end, there is simply no escaping the obvious fact that'll gods are imaginary.

Jet.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 29, 2011, 11:06:23 AM
Hello. I'd like to throw in my two cents, if I may.

Hello.  welcome to the forum.  You may.

I am not religious by any stretch. Nor am I atheist.

It sounds to me that you are a confused religious person.  If you are not an atheist, then you believe in at least one god.  Or perhaps you do not believe in gods, but you do not want to use the word "atheist"?

By definition, that would make me agnostic,

depends how you define agnostic.  In most circles agnostic is considered to be someone who has no opinion.  A more sophisticated definition uses agnostic to descibe certainty of knowledge.  An agnostic atheist is someone who does not believe in gods, but does not claim to know they do not exist.

If you were to ask whether I thought God was real, my answer would be probably not.

then you are an agnostic atheist.

At least not in any way that any major religion has described "Him." However, I find "Why won't God heal amputees?" to be a rather poor argument for questioning "His" existence.

then you miss the point of the question. It is not a silver bullet that proves gods do not exist. It is an argument against certain types of xians or people who believe in miraculous healing.  It reveals flaws in the logic and it  leads to a limited number of conclusions, one of which is there are no gods.

There's that old saying about how the Lord works in mysterious ways, and that God has a plan for each of us. Therefore any answered prayers would coincide with that plan, and by Christianity's logic, the limb you lost is a part of that plan, so, sorry, but it won't magically regenerate. Extremist sects would say that God is punishing you for your sins and you deserved it, that it should be a sign for you to repent.

That is handled in the online "book" that explains the whole question.  You should read it.

If that's the case, though, then why is there war and poverty?

You tell me.  Why are prayers not answered?  If the universe is overseen by a god that is all powerful, all knowing and all good, why is there suffering?

I read several pages of this website,

Maybe you should read all the pages before you comment.

but what I'm reading between the lines for all of it can be summed up as follows: "My life is not perfect. Therefore, there is no God."

nope.  Not even close.

The Book of Job would be the counterpoint to the logic that "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" brings up.

The book of Job is a tacit admission that the hebrew god behaves as randomly and indifferently as a natural phenomenon with no god whatsoever.  People look to religion for an explanation.  Job says there is none.

The book of Job shows that if there is a god, it does not respect any bargains, promises or deals that it made with people.  It had a deal with the hebrews - they worship yhwh and yhwh makes them prosper.  yhwh broke that deal.  He wanted to see if he could still be worshipped without keeping up his end of the bargain.  And in the end, he did it through power and bullying.

For anyone that doubts religion,

?  I have no idea what kind of argument you are trying to make here, but try again.  This one sucks.

Take into account the legend of the Tower of Babel, wherein humanity tried to reach God and nearly destroyed itself in the process,

That is not the story of Babel.  In the story of Babel, humans worked together to acheive something great.  yhwh then destroyed it because he was afraid of what they would accomplish.  People did not destroy themselves, god did it out of jealously and fear.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 29, 2011, 11:44:46 AM
I am not religious by any stretch. Nor am I atheist. By definition, that would make me agnostic, though in actuality I strive for nihilistic ideals. What I mean by that is that I have a belief structure, however I am aware that it is fallible and I am not afraid of being proven wrong. I actively seek out counterpoints to what I feel is right and always take them into consideration. I don't necessarily agree with or believe in everything that is said to me, though I always respect the fact that another person's beliefs are as sacred to them as mine are to me.
Nihilistic ideals?  What would those be?  and from the rest of your post, there is no way you are an agnostic either. Too many claims of knowing things about your “god”.
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If you were to ask whether I thought God was real, my answer would be probably not. At least not in any way that any major religion has described "Him." However, I find "Why won't God heal amputees?" to be a rather poor argument for questioning "His" existence. To an extent, it works as a counterpoint to some major religions, especially Christianity, but it's missing one key belief that religion has. There's that old saying about how the Lord works in mysterious ways, and that God has a plan for each of us. Therefore any answered prayers would coincide with that plan, and by Christianity's logic, the limb you lost is a part of that plan, so, sorry, but it won't magically regenerate. Extremist sects would say that God is punishing you for your sins and you deserved it, that it should be a sign for you to repent.
Right here, I don’t belief for a second you aren’t religious.  You are religious, you just don’t like the baggage that the term comes with.  You want to believe in a “god” of your own definition and you want to have some special information about it.  That old crap about “the lord works in mysterious ways” is pure Christianity, trying to excuse the inaction of its imaginary deity. You want to claim that you “know” that there is a “plan”.  Please do show us the evidence that you do.

Yep, the WWGHA is asking for an explanation why the bible promises things and then fails to live up to those promises.  It sure is a good question to ask why is there war and poverty.  And the bible fails at that too.  So again, the bible, and I would guess, *your* bible no matter your feeble protestations, is worthless.

You want have your cake and eat it too.  You want an involved god with a “plan” but then you want to excuse it for not doing anything.  And Job.  Well, Christian, it’s not a counterpoint at all to the question.  Your god, and the more I read your post I am sure that you do worship this thing, made a bet with someone that this Job wouldn’t break.  What’s funny about this is that Job did nothing wrong.  Job questions this god just as we are. Unfortunately for you, and your god, we aren’t impressed by the blowhard god strutting around saying how great it is. Job was conveniently for the story. And this has nothing to do with the question why does your god fail in answering its promises.

I also question the existence of your god and base it on scientific evidence that this being doesn’t do what it says, just like prayers.  No magic creation, no flood, no Babel, no exodus, no cruxifiction.  But most theists are too ignorant of those things to really make an impact, so showing how ignorant their book is, is another tool. 

Like so many others, you have created your own version of this god.  You ignore the “silly” bits and have cobbled the rest together. But you have no problem in regurgitating the same old stuff from the bible.  Oooh, humans are weak, humans are stupid.  Sad that you find that to be some “truth”. 

and then we get the final “oooh, I don’t believe but I see how it’s useful so mean ol’ atheists should leave “those” theists alone.”  Sorry, not going to leave them or *you* alone. 



Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: anon0404 on July 30, 2011, 03:25:23 AM
This response is aimed mainly at velkyn. Allow me to start off by saying it is most certainly not *my* bible. I denounced that thing forever ago, and I meant it. And I never claimed to know a thing about (not) my God. My friend, it is very easy to jump to conclusions about faceless people on the internet based on what is typed. But believe it or not, I'd agree more with you than a priest (see that? I'm jumping to conclusions). But while what you refer to as me regurgitating bible speak is true to an extent, but I am only repeating things that religious people tell me when I present them with atheistic findings.

Seeing as how I used the bible as a basis for several counterpoints last time around, I will make a conscious effort not to do so for this post. But I'm not making any promises, either.

My key argument is that the bible was written by people, and that is why it does not live up to its promises. But in my humble opinion, both people that claim they can understand the nature of God and people that claim they can prove or disprove its existence are all just being silly. Especially people claiming that they can prove or disprove its existence based on what people that claim they can understand its nature have said.

What I'm saying is that the bible tends to give good people with a different belief structure than my own a bad name. Especially when you see what it does to extremists. I do not approve of a certain church (mainly a family, really) in Kansas praising the 9/11 terrorists and thanking their God for dead soldiers and little girls gunned down in Arizona, among other heinous acts.

On a side note, could I possibly type the word "especially" anymore? More than likely, especially since I'm just getting started.

If you re-read what I said, you accuse me of two distinct things I did not say. For one, the prospective God I described never said or promised a thing, and is based entirely on science. I have no better way of summing my description of it at the moment than quoting a now dead-beat rock star, whose real name is Brian Warner, who had something relevant to say once upon a time. On this matter, there is an old lyric that goes, "God is a number you cannot count to." If there is such a thing as God, I feel it is the absolute pinnacle of science. A perfectly logical, physical phenomena with (more than likely, though not certainly) no conscience or judgement, only a sound explanation on why there is time, space, and matter as opposed to an absolute void of existence. But based on how science works, this explanation is beyond the grasp of any living being. The reason I say this is because I'm of the opinion that life is a byproduct of existence, not the other way around. When you take life into account, there are only more questions for every answer you find. Existence, on the other hand, simply is. A rock doesn't have the capacity to ask questions (I *really* hope a rock doesn't have the capacity to ask questions).

The other thing you appear to have misread is in regard to the "truths" I've found. As I said, I was stating nothing factual. Anything pro-religious I posted was meant to play a devil's advocate in response to the question, "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" Because, believe me, I doubt the existence of the devil even more than I doubt the existence of God, but if both exist, there would be strong evidence to suggest that the devil is at the helm of all organized religion, as it instills "truths" in people and subsequently stunts mental growth for most that are actively involved.

In regards to an earlier post from Jetson, yes, this question is an excellent topic for debate and discussion. I was just making a point that religion has its "answers" to this question covered, and it isn't going to change the mind of a devout believer because what we see as rationalization and/or delusion, they see as logic, and our logic to them is nothing but rationalization and/or delusion. I should also point out that when I say "our" logic, I don't mean that mine is the same as the posters I am replying to. I'm only lumping us together in the sense that we are outside their belief structure.

Back on the topic of velkyn's reply, as far as the "truths" (as you'd call what I'd call them) I've gathered about people, I can only conclude we are weak, stupid, and at times both benevolent and cruel based on my own observations and experiences, and I don't claim to be exempt from that description, nor to be correct about it, but the most profound thing I've ever read in studying history is the quote from Socrates, "True wisdom comes from knowing that we know nothing." What I take from that is that the best thing we can possibly do for ourselves is continue learning, but as we do so to remember that there are no certainties in this world. Our parents, priests, teachers, friends, enemies, and governments have all been wrong in the past. And so have our scientists. As a species, we are nothing if not fallible (just pretend I'm typing "IMHO" before everything I say).

So to wrap up, I'm not asking anybody to leave anybody alone. Just be aware that you don't have to believe in any God whatsoever to be a religious zealot.

Lastly, I feel like I've been ignoring screwtape. You, on the other hand, have clearly done your reading, so all I can really say is that you and I have different interpretations of our findings.

I should have elaborated more on the Babel thing: Yes, technically it says Ywhw destroyed it, but from a literal sense he wouldn't have done it himself for the same reason severed limbs won't magically regrow. My interpretation of it is that a past society got fairly advanced for their time, and as history has shown us, advancement tends to lead to conflict. All it takes is one good civil war for a civilization to destroy itself and everything it has accomplished. It's very easy to say God had something to do with it after the fact. Let's face it, religion doesn't exactly show a whole lot of praise for knowledge. Sheep don't learn, they follow.

As for re-making my argument on religious doubt, I'm pretty sure I did so, but since there's no explanation as to why it sucks, I can only offer you a "Does not!" in return.

And finally, as you said so yourself,

"The book of Job is a tacit admission that the hebrew god behaves as randomly and indifferently as a natural phenomenon with no god whatsoever.  People look to religion for an explanation.  Job says there is none.

The book of Job shows that if there is a god, it does not respect any bargains, promises or deals that it made with people.  It had a deal with the hebrews - they worship yhwh and yhwh makes them prosper.  yhwh broke that deal.  He wanted to see if he could still be worshipped without keeping up his end of the bargain.  And in the end, he did it through power and bullying."

Exactly. That's exactly why God won't heal amputees.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 30, 2011, 07:31:25 AM
Another option is that God isn't real and therefore doesn't heal amputees.  That explains it pretty well, doesn't it?  Why anyone feels they have to add anything to that is beyond me.  It's the same type of explanation you might use when you realize there is no pot of gold at the end of every rainbow.  You could say the leprechauns are hiding it, or that they are incomprehensible to the human mind or whatever.  But a much simpler explanation is that leprechauns aren't real.  Stop there.  You don't need to go further with it. 

You can say God is "the pinnacle of science" or "infinity" or whatever you want, but that's just renaming things we already have names for.  What's the point of that?  You don't need to believe in any version of God in order to understand science.  In fact, science only works if you first assume there isn't someone who can come along and mash up nature's laws.   

The book of Job shows that if there is a god, it does not respect any bargains, promises or deals that it made with people.  It had a deal with the hebrews - they worship yhwh and yhwh makes them prosper.  yhwh broke that deal.  He wanted to see if he could still be worshipped without keeping up his end of the bargain.  And in the end, he did it through power and bullying."

Exactly. That's exactly why God won't heal amputees.

Or God isn't real, and the book of Job is a hideously awful, fictional tale.  Is there any real world scenario where this particular theory doesn't fit with the facts?   No, there isn't.  You're done with it at that point. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 30, 2011, 08:08:28 AM
JeffPT,

I need to learn to get right to the point more often!  Thanks for reminding me that sometimes, even atheists forget the truth, and babble on endlessly in pointless arguments where the most obvious answer is left unsaid.

In short, you rock.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 30, 2011, 08:49:22 AM
Lastly, I feel like I've been ignoring screwtape. You, on the other hand, have clearly done your reading, so all I can really say is that you and I have different interpretations of our findings.

Which findings?

I should have elaborated more on the Babel thing: Yes, technically it says Ywhw destroyed it, but from a literal sense he wouldn't have done it himself for the same reason severed limbs won't magically regrow.

But that is not what the story says.  And we are talking about what was written in the story, right?
gen11:8
Quote
So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.

It says elohim did it.

My interpretation of it is that a past society got fairly advanced for their time, and as history has shown us, advancement tends to lead to conflict. All it takes is one good civil war for a civilization to destroy itself and everything it has accomplished.

?  Advancement leads to conflict?  No, that is not what history has shown us.  And it does not say they had a war.  It says they were scattered and spoke different languages.

If that is your interpretation - a literary interpretation - then god is symbolic.  Of what is god a symbol?  It sounds like you have just ignored god in that story.

It's very easy to say God had something to do with it after the fact.

It makes it easier to say when that is what is written in the story we are talking about.  Don't get me wrong, I don't believe any of it.  I was speaking of the story as I would any story.  You know, normal literary criticism.

As for re-making my argument on religious doubt, I'm pretty sure I did so, but since there's no explanation as to why it sucks, I can only offer you a "Does not!" in return.

Does.  I have no idea what you were saying. You did not effectively even communicate your point.  Maybe if I understood what you were trying to say I would think differently.  But "nuh-uh" does not do much for my understanding.

And finally, as you said so yourself,
...
Exactly. That's exactly why God won't heal amputees.

?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on July 30, 2011, 09:35:45 AM
I am not religious by any stretch. Nor am I atheist. By definition, that would make me agnostic, though in actuality I strive for nihilistic ideals.

Do you believe in a god or gods, yes or no?

Your answer is what makes you an atheist, nothing else.

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To an extent, it works as a counterpoint to some major religions, especially Christianity, but it's missing one key belief that religion has. There's that old saying about how the Lord works in mysterious ways, and that God has a plan for each of us. Therefore any answered prayers would coincide with that plan, and by Christianity's logic, the limb you lost is a part of that plan, so, sorry, but it won't magically regenerate. Extremist sects would say that God is punishing you for your sins and you deserved it, that it should be a sign for you to repent.

That's not a counter point, its a tautology.  Any notion that 'god' of whatever preferred religious belief you claim has some kind of plan to account for contradictions of his own actions is a type of red herring that just begs the next question.  That god, that thing capable of anything/everything, doesn't have to create a situation prior to whatever great end game it has in mind.  It could simply just snap its fingers and everything would be exactly as it deems however, whenever, and whatever.  The inclusion of anything prior to this is therefore meaningless.

Quote
If that's the case, though, then why is there war and poverty? Praying for peace on Earth is much more common than asking for lost limbs back, and history shows us that that is not the case.

No shit sherlock.  That's the point.

Quote
I read several pages of this website, but what I'm reading between the lines for all of it can be summed up as follows: "My life is not perfect. Therefore, there is no God." I feel this is website represents a very self-righteous view on God's existence, or lack thereof. The Book of Job would be the counterpoint to the logic that "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" brings up.

That's a horrific example: the biblical god ( an all knowing all powerful being ) makes a bet with the biblical antagonist in the narrative ( who doesn't seem to know that irrationality of making bets with all knowing all powerful beings ) and is given special permission to torture a single individual known as Job.  Horrible things ensue, and thus concludes a story that reinforces belief in superstitious dogma instructing anyone who believes to believe no matter how horrible everything is.   Truly, you could find it in your heart to believe, if Job Believed!

Sorry kid, biblical rhetoric that is meant to reinforce cult like mentalities does not make a rebuttal to the fact that no instances of prayer doing anything actually exists.   The WWGHA does a neat job of demonstrating where, what, and how prayers that are answered occur.  When the evidence is obscure or non-existence, when it is convenient to emotionally believe, and when it serves the purpose of reinforcing belief.

This applies to any religion that claims to have divine miracles and the only way out of the conundrum is to accept one of the following:

1. A god exist, prayers are never answered.
2. A god doesn't exist, prayer are never answered.
3. A god exist, but only answers prayers where evidence doesn't exist or is vague.
4. A god doesn't exist, prayer answered through another means ( lies, delusion, etc )

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Unanswered prayers are not a very strong basis for debating the existence of an all-powerful being that created existence in the first place.

It is a great argument against any religious belief system where in it claims to have answered prayers or the individuals there in claim to have answered prayer.

Quote
And that if it did create us, it was merely so that we could grow. Nothing more.

I'm no more concerned about its existence then I am concerned with the notion that undetectable leprechauns hide behind every tree.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: anon0404 on July 31, 2011, 03:44:23 AM
I, too, feel compelled to get right to the point, seeing as how my last two posts were pretty long.

So, while I could back the things I'm about to say with several more paragraphs each, I did that already and everybody's just been reading the parts they want to instead of the whole paragraph. I'll just dumb it down and ignore elaborations. This has been a great reminder of just how much atheists love dumb things.

1. Everything I've brought up is a non-religious interpretation of the symbolism implied by the humans attempting to speak for the supposed divine.

2. Everything else I've brought up has been discussed within the first semester and/or week of any philosophy class that the professor has any real interest in.

3. Of course there is another option that God isn't real. But when you get right down to it, all it is is another option.

4. Advancement always leads to conflict. You can look as far back as slavery or as far ahead as stem cell research.

5. There's no truth to forget. Based on the Scientific Method, there's no truth, period.

6. Any religious affiliate claiming they can prove the existence of a deity is just as dangerous to society as any atheist claiming they can disprove it.

6. Religion simplifies existence as magic.

6. Science simplifies existence as probability.

7. There never has and never will be solid proof of either theory.

End of statement.

If I had any so-called truth to offer, it would be to read into Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi. He is the one true Lord and Savior. And if you find that statement just as nonsensical as, in effect, you would almost certainly claim the rest of my statements are, then all I can really tell you is to have fun being right, since you will inevitably accomplish nothing more in the process.

Have a nice life, internets. May science have mercy on your 0's and 1's.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 31, 2011, 07:05:43 AM
I, too, feel compelled to get right to the point, seeing as how my last two posts were pretty long.

So, while I could back the things I'm about to say with several more paragraphs each, I did that already and everybody's just been reading the parts they want to instead of the whole paragraph. I'll just dumb it down and ignore elaborations. This has been a great reminder of just how much atheists love dumb things.


3. Of course there is another option that God isn't real. But when you get right down to it, all it is is another option.

6. Any religious affiliate claiming they can prove the existence of a deity is just as dangerous to society as any atheist claiming they can disprove it.

End of statement.

If I had any so-called truth to offer, it would be to read into Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi. He is the one true Lord and Savior. And if you find that statement just as nonsensical as, in effect, you would almost certainly claim the rest of my statements are, then all I can really tell you is to have fun being right, since you will inevitably accomplish nothing more in the process.

Have a nice life, internets. May science have mercy on your 0's and 1's.

Your quote was edited by me to cut down to certain items.

The part I bolded is pointless, derogatory, and paints you as an asshat.  Congratulations.

Item 3.  We don't get to invent "options" just to have an argument.  The reality of gods is that humans invented them, and the reasons are nowhere near as important as the fact that they are all imagined, and demonstrably non-existent.  We can certainly discuss the impact these imaginary gods have had on societies, including our most modern societies, but no one has the right to make demonstrably false claims, and hide behind the "mystery" of imagined gods that have been ingrained into the human psyche for millennia, and always from birth when the brain cannot distinguish real from imaginary.

Item 6.  Another stupid, stupid statement.  Dangerous?  WTF does that even mean in the context of your reply?  Furthermore, atheists are not here to "disprove" any gods, that's far too easy, given that no gods have ever been shown to be real.  We are really here to stop the bigotry, hatred, guilt, shame, fear, hypocrisy, and even bloodshed over who has the best imaginary god.  We are in no way dangerous in this effort.  If there is danger, it is coming directly from the zealous religious fanatics who can't seem to understand the simple fact that most people don't give two shits about their delusions.  So these idiots create danger around every corner for all of us.

Finally, sounds like you are walking away, pretending victory of some sort with your final sentence.  What are you afraid of?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on July 31, 2011, 07:39:52 AM
6. Any religious affiliate claiming they can prove the existence of a deity is just as dangerous to society as any atheist claiming they can disprove it.

6. Religion simplifies existence as magic.

6. Science simplifies existence as probability.

Had to LOL at this.  Was it deliberate?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 31, 2011, 07:41:09 AM
6. Any religious affiliate claiming they can prove the existence of a deity is just as dangerous to society as any atheist claiming they can disprove it.

6. Religion simplifies existence as magic.

6. Science simplifies existence as probability.

Had to LOL at this.  Was it deliberate?

Pretty sure it was. Two 6's, I'd call a mistake. Three 6's it's too much.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 31, 2011, 08:05:19 AM
Piano, paying attention, so the rest of us can be lazy!  Too funny... ;D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on July 31, 2011, 08:58:03 AM
This has been a great reminder of just how much atheists love dumb things.

If that were true, you'd have 50 PM's worth of love notes in your inbox.  It didn't have to go nasty; you brought it there with this little snippet.  There was nothing mean about my post, although you probably read into it that there was, because anyone who doesn't agree with you (and makes a more valid point than you) is easier to get pissy with than to argue against.

1. Everything I've brought up is a non-religious interpretation of the symbolism implied by the humans attempting to speak for the supposed divine.

Alright...

Quote
2. Everything else I've brought up has been discussed within the first semester and/or week of any philosophy class that the professor has any real interest in.

Philosophy is fun, but it doesn't lead to truth.  It might help you discover ways to get to the truth, but in and of itself, it doesn't lead to truth.

Quote
3. Of course there is another option that God isn't real. But when you get right down to it, all it is is another option.

This is where the rubber meets the road.  You're right; its just another option, but in determining which option is more likely true, we have to look at the evidence.  Now, in the grand scheme of things, the likelihood that someone will say something (with no evidence mind you) that contains objective truth about the universe is extremely, nearly infinitely small, correct?  I mean I could say my toaster is God.  The possibility of that being true is really low.  As low as saying dark matter is what makes up our brain, or my cat is a vessel for AJKLf the goo goo god to speak to all monkeys as their leader.  Our brains have the capacity to say or think lots of things.  Again, the odds of any of them being objectively true about the universe are almost impossibly small.... unless.... you have evidence! Evidence lets us differentiate between the things that are nearly impossibly true, and the things that are likely true.  And since we can never have any sort of ultimate truth, at the very least, this provides us with something useful. 

The theory that there is no God currently fits precisely well with everything we know about the universe.  There is abundant evidence all around us that lets us understand that a deity of any kind is not necessary to understand the universe as we see it.  That wasn't the case a few thousand years ago, because science wasn't a player, but it IS the case now.  We don't need to suppose a supreme being in order to understand the universe.  So put the god idea in the trash where it belongs and move forward. Until we have evidence that leads in that direction, it's just a stupid direction to go in.

4. Advancement always leads to conflict. You can look as far back as slavery or as far ahead as stem cell research.

Lots of things lead to conflict.  What's your point here?

5. There's no truth to forget. Based on the Scientific Method, there's no truth, period.

Yeah, but we can't just toss up our hands and say, "Oh well, life sucks, we shouldn't try to learn anything; let's just play hopscotch instead." There ARE things we can get closer to understanding. 

It's been said that the only real truths we can come to are in the form of mathematics.  Given that our brains perceive the world around us in ways that can be easily manipulated with chemical and mechanical changes, I tend to agree with this.  But there are things we can rule out more effectively, and those things are based on evidence.   We can rule out that my toaster is god more easily than we can rule out the notion that the earth revolves around the sun, for instance. 

6. Any religious affiliate claiming they can prove the existence of a deity is just as dangerous to society as any atheist claiming they can disprove it.

Bullshit.  Any religious affiliate claiming they can prove the existence of god is more than open to show that evidence.  I am dying to hear it.  Why can't they do that? What's WRONG with that?  If their deity can be empirically proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then I want to hear it.  On the flip side, if there is evidence against there being a god, then I want to hear that too!  And guess what, the atheist side wins that battle.  Hands down, no doubt about it.  Science proves more and more every day that the notion of a deity was the human brains attempt at explaining things it didn't understand.

6. Religion simplifies existence as magic.

Correct.  And we have no evidence that there is any such thing.

6. Science simplifies existence as probability.

Science is simply a process that works better than any other at explaining how shit works in our every day lives.  It uses reasoning coupled with evidence, and it works better than anything else we have.  Thanks, I'm hitching my wagon here until something better comes along. 

7. There never has and never will be solid proof of either theory.

"We can never know the real truth" isn't an argument.  It's a nonstarter.  But we do have one process that allows us to, at the very least, get closer to the truth.  And that is science.  If you want to know the how, and the why something happens, then philosophical guess work doesn't work, theological ramblings don't work, feelings and emotions don't work, but science... that shit works.  You wouldn't have a computer if it didn't. 

If I had any so-called truth to offer, it would be to read into Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi. He is the one true Lord and Savior. And if you find that statement just as nonsensical as, in effect, you would almost certainly claim the rest of my statements are, then all I can really tell you is to have fun being right, since you will inevitably accomplish nothing more in the process.

Ah, so HERE'S where your coming from.  I get it now.  You're one of THOSE guys.   &)

I always shake my head at those philosophers who tout that we can never really "know" anything as if this is something new or novel.  Of course we can't.  We may never make it to the point where we have objective truths about our universe precisely because our brains have evolved to perceive the world in a way that maximizes it's chances of survival, and not to maximize our chance at understanding ultimate truth about the cosmos.  In other words, we are tuned to this middle world that we live in.  We aren't tuned to understand the larger cosmos, or the smaller atomic levels.  So in that respect, we may never know what's really going on.  BUT TAKE HEART!  We have a system now that lets us make sense of the universe we find ourselves in.  It's a process that is continually improving our knowledge of THIS world.  It's demonstrable, repeatable, testable, and able to be passed from person to person easily.  So this is the best we've got. 

If your looking for ultimate meaning, find some woo and go with it.  If not, stay out of the way and let science pull us forward.  There are plenty of us running around saying "I know I won't understand everything, and I'm OK with that.  But I do have a process that helps me understand THIS thing called life."   

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 31, 2011, 06:34:13 PM
JeffPT,

I need to learn to get right to the point more often!  Thanks for reminding me that sometimes, even atheists forget the truth, and babble on endlessly in pointless arguments where the most obvious answer is left unsaid.

In short, you rock.
is that a shot at me (LOL JUST KIDDING)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 31, 2011, 06:40:22 PM
JeffPT,

I need to learn to get right to the point more often!  Thanks for reminding me that sometimes, even atheists forget the truth, and babble on endlessly in pointless arguments where the most obvious answer is left unsaid.

In short, you rock.
is that a shot at me (LOL JUST KIDDING)

Ha, not really.  But it is easy to get caught up in giving theists the benefit of the doubt, for the conversation.  But in the end, it's all mythology and bullshit.  Unless it's not, which it's not, of course.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 31, 2011, 06:52:46 PM
I have a tendency to BABBLE,you guys always reel me in with your reasoning skills DAMMIT.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on July 31, 2011, 06:57:20 PM
I have a tendency to BABBLE,you guys always reel me in with your reasoning skills DAMMIT.

Hey, you're talking to a world class babbler here, so, no worries.  Well, there's always mram, our paid babbler...oops, did I say too much?

Mram, please forgive me for giving away your secret. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 01, 2011, 09:30:59 AM
3. Of course there is another option that God isn't real. But when you get right down to it, all it is is another option.
well, then, anon, do show the evidence for your god.  There is no evidence for *any* god, so if we go with the evidence, your claim is the one that fails.
Quote
5. There's no truth to forget. Based on the Scientific Method, there's no truth, period.
Oh I do wish I could put every theist who attacks science into a compound where they have to live in mud huts and have no access to computers, or cars or modern medicine. Then we'd see just how much they would miss the same science that they find so horrible when it shows that their religious claims are untrue.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: zed on August 05, 2011, 01:02:41 AM
Thank you for reading my post.

For some reason I have stumbled upon this site and have found it to be remarkable. I have not yet read and understood the site entirely but was compelled to ask a few questions to allow me to understand the points of view.

1. where do we come from
2. what is the point of our existence
3. where are we going

If you can indulge me for a bit I would like to put my point across that is not conclusive but derived by both sides of the fence and would like others to put their ideas out there, because I think the question about why god heals doesn’t heal to determine whether it exists is redundant.

I could write many pages as I am not good at typing ideas, but I’ll put it into point form to make it quick and easy,

1.science says we have come from the big bang - this is true, stars exploding uniquely let off specific particles such as carbon atoms, helium, and in rare forms iron and form presumably everything on earth. Pretty damn unique to me it’s a bit like throwing a jig saw puzzle on the ground over and over again and eventually falling all into its correct place.

where does our consciousness come from? can we see it? what do you define it to be (forget WIKI) can we make a human from non human source? such as atoms big bang etc.

There has to be something else- something more, something greater than the big bang that has put the puzzle  into its form thus creating a consciousness - I like to call it a spirit, not the ones you see in movies etc but an actual definitive real entity.

I agree that it is easy to dismiss the contents of the bible and the details to which it explains things, it was essentially written by people many moons ago, but I think no one can dismiss the fact that there is something greater than us, beyond our ability to understand that has given us this existence.

2. either you believe that we are here from a bang or created, what are your ideas of why we are here? An extremely very rare occurrence has happened and we can’t pass it off the be "fluke" or natural selection etc.

3. where we are going stumps me its scares the crap out of me it seems a bit pointless for our existence to happen and not have any real outcome.
Common let’s face it the miracle of us VS the life we live out every day is largely outweighed by each other – there has to be a purpose of why we are here  fitting to the intentions of us being here.
Finally, it is a waste of everyone’s time to argue one fine detail of someone’s philosophy and use that to benchmark their validity, i.e. the details of healing etc, if you’re saying you believe in god then you would believe that you cannot understand the intentions but on the other hand if you don’t believe in god you have no ability to judge because god is beyond our logic/facts. I think it’s the details to which people say god exists rather than the existence itself.
Just because our logic cannot understand it doesn’t mean we have to dismiss it. Do you believe in infinity?

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on August 05, 2011, 06:17:56 AM
Welcome zed,

Let me start out by saying that it it's always good to think about things, and share your thoughts with others if you're inclined to discuss them.  Here are some more questions:

Why does there have to be a reason why we are here, beyond the fact that we naturally came about as a result of the evolution of life?

Do giraffes have a purpose?   What about a T-Rex?

If we have not figured out the cause of the Big Bang, should we keep searching for better understanding?

If there is something currently beyond our understanding, that is or was involved in the creation of our universe, should we keep searching for it, or should we call it God, and keep fighting over this god?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: zed on August 05, 2011, 08:05:23 AM
Hi jetson

thanks for your reply, i do believe that we need to find a reason to the 3 points i mentioned earlier , and the reasons i have already discussed - giraffes and Mr t-rex were included within my ideas as was everything with molecules.

doesn't it blow your mind who and what we are, and that we don't really know. The pursuit of this is vital and absolutely necessary to allow ourselves to live with true purpose and understanding, i think it would be arrogant to think otherwise.

the collection of ideas from people regarding "their god" should be taken into context and taken for what it is.. peoples interpretations/philosophy, IE people claiming to be god, persecution about nonconformity etc.

now this can be very fragmented and vastly different even about the same god, and it is this that gives people a warped understanding. the truths are there in part both in the physical and spiritual but it is the people who claim to take these part understandings claim to know everything and persecute others for it.. but that's not their gods fault.

you don't blame the band for a gate crasher.

also do you have any answers on the 3 points originally put up? i am eagerly curious.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 05, 2011, 08:19:46 AM
Quote
1. where do we come from


Our parents...and on back to the root of the evolutionary tree.

Where do you think we came from?

Quote
2. what is the point of our existence

Wrong question. Why assume there is a "point"?

We don't even know enough to assume "why" is the best question word. I think "how" is the best place to start.

Quote
3. where are we going

The same place we were going yesterday, and can now confirm was the same place we were going the day before.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 05, 2011, 08:28:03 AM
1. where do we come from

Relevance?

Quote
2. what is the point of our existence

What point?

Quote
3. where are we going

What goal?

Quote
If you can indulge me for a bit I would like to put my point across that is not conclusive but derived by both sides of the fence


No.  Your using loaded rhetorical language, based on a series of notions that suppose the existence of magical attributes for reality and our place in it.  Jetson pointed this out:

Why does there have to be a reason why we are here, beyond the fact that we naturally came about as a result of the evolution of life?

Do giraffes have a purpose?   What about a T-Rex?

If we have not figured out the cause of the Big Bang, should we keep searching for better understanding?

If there is something currently beyond our understanding, that is or was involved in the creation of our universe, should we keep searching for it, or should we call it God, and keep fighting over this god?

Jetson used a type of socratic methodology of asking you questions in order to help you understand.  Those questions deserve straight forward answers, as they pertain to the basis of why you would even bother to insinuate the claims you've made thus far.  Your response to jetson wasn't to answer those questions, but to incredulously repeat your initial claims as if that somehow accounted for the problems and not answer the actual questions directly.

Quote
Just because our logic cannot understand it doesn’t mean we have to dismiss it. Do you believe in infinity?

The ability for logic to address/understand something is explicitly tied to whether it exists to be addressed or understood, without any means to determine it to be there much less what it is, it can, should, and will be dismissed out of hand.  Claims made about it are inseparable from whim, imagination, or just randomly making shit up.

There could be undetectable leprechauns behind every tree, but because they are undetectable.. their existence is moot.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 05, 2011, 09:08:42 AM
1.science says we have come from the big bang - this is true, stars exploding uniquely let off specific particles such as carbon atoms, helium, and in rare forms iron and form presumably everything on earth. Pretty damn unique to me it’s a bit like throwing a jig saw puzzle on the ground over and over again and eventually falling all into its correct place.
Sigh, the old tornado in a junkyard argument again.  And we have no idea on how unique this is.  Oh, and to remind you, you use the same science that supports the BBT and evolution everyday, only coming out to attack it when you find it showing your religion is wrong.

No, there doesn’t have to be something else. False dichotomy.  Since we know that a person is irrevocably changed when suffering brain damange, that’s what consciousness is.  If not, then there should be no change. 

You are just one more Christian who wants to use their magic decoder ring on their bible, deciding what is literal and what is metaphor as it is convenient to you.  And I can easily dismiss any claim, not fact, that there is anything “greater” than us.  You want to claim it, prove it. 

At the base of it, your religion is based on your ignorant fear and your greed for something “more”. 

And it’s not a waste of time to show you that you are wrong and to prevent you from carrying your lies to others.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on August 05, 2011, 12:57:54 PM
1.science says we have come from the big bang - this is true, stars exploding uniquely let off specific particles such as carbon atoms, helium, and in rare forms iron and form presumably everything on earth.

Agreed.  Now, how do you know this is "true"?  The process used to come to the conclusion that the big bang really happened was the scientific method.  It has been shown, time and time again, to be the most reliable methodology for determining truth that we can get our grubby little hands on.  While the big bang is a theory, it is widely accepted because it most accurately explains how the facts of our universe fit together. 

It sounds to me that in the rest of your post, you largely abandon the use of science to formulate your beliefs.  You use it to say the big bang is real, then you just say fluff stuff about how there "has" to be this and "has" to be that.  Where is your scientific study showing there is a spirit? 

Pretty damn unique to me it’s a bit like throwing a jig saw puzzle on the ground over and over again and eventually falling all into its correct place.

The jigsaw puzzle analogy is partly right, but the notion that every piece has to land in it's rightful place in one shot is not how it works.  Imagine how long it would take to put that jigsaw puzzle together if every time you dropped it, a few pieces landed in their rightful spots.  It would just be a matter of time until it all came together. 

where does our consciousness come from? can we see it? what do you define it to be (forget WIKI) can we make a human from non human source? such as atoms big bang etc.

There has to be something else- something more, something greater than the big bang that has put the puzzle  into its form thus creating a consciousness - I like to call it a spirit, not the ones you see in movies etc but an actual definitive real entity.

To ask questions that you don't know the answer to, and then superimpose the notion that only some sort of supernatural spirit could be the only answer, without using any evidence at all for it, is extremely poor logic and even worse science.  It's like ancient man saying they didn't know where lightning came from, and then concluding that it could only be the work of "a spirit".  If you don't know the answer, just say you don't know and move on. 

The notion that consciousness could only have arisen through supernatural means is an argument from ignorance and is completely without evidence.  It's just a guess.  Why could consciousness not simply just be a complex end result of neurons firing in the brain which are not yet well understood?  You saying it "has" to be something else is wrong.  It doesn't have to be anything just because you say it is.     

I agree that it is easy to dismiss the contents of the bible and the details to which it explains things, it was essentially written by people many moons ago, but I think no one can dismiss the fact that there is something greater than us, beyond our ability to understand that has given us this existence.

That remains to be proven in any meaningful way.  There are lots of things we don't yet understand.  But there are lots of things we do.  To say we will never understand more than we do now through natural means and the scientific method is a really risky bet. 

I, in fact, do dismiss the notion that there is something greater than us with exactly the same conviction that I dismiss the notion that there are fairies in my bathtub.  They could both be right, but until you prove to me that they are there (using the most reliable method we have... science) and you got me. 

2. either you believe that we are here from a bang or created, what are your ideas of why we are here? An extremely very rare occurrence has happened and we can’t pass it off the be "fluke" or natural selection etc.

The "why" question may not be necessary.  It could simply be asking something like "Why are there 1,421 rocks in my back yard?"  There just are.  We don't need a cosmic purpose for being here. 

How do you know we are an extremely rare occurrence?  Have you been to other planets?  Life in the universe may be EXTREMELY common. 

3. where we are going stumps me its scares the crap out of me it seems a bit pointless for our existence to happen and not have any real outcome.

I'm sorry you have such a problem with the truth.  Maybe if you tried accepting it, you'd understand that it's not as big a deal as you make it out to be. 

Common let’s face it the miracle of us VS the life we live out every day is largely outweighed by each other – there has to be a purpose of why we are here  fitting to the intentions of us being here.

No, there doesn't.  You just wish it were so, but that doesn't mean it is true. 

Do you believe in infinity?

Infinity is a concept. I think asking someone if they "believe" in it is a bit strange.  What do you mean? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on August 05, 2011, 07:46:58 PM
also do you have any answers on the 3 points originally put up? i am eagerly curious.

1. where do we come from
2. what is the point of our existence
3. where are we going

1. The union of our biological mother's egg, and our biological father's sperm.
2. To exist.
3. Back to where we started from.

Of course, there are infinite ways to answer these questions.  And to some people, especially younger people, these questions might seem profound, and possibly carry a hint of philosophical challenge, or difficulty.  But they are just questions, written by humans, and pondered in various ways over the millennia.  Nothing new, really.

How about these:
1. We come from stardust, by a miracle of random atomic organization.
2. The point of our existence is to discover the point of our existence.
3. We are going to atomic deconstruction, back to our pre-existence, existence.

Anyway, philosophy can be fun, but it's not particularly practical for your average joe trying to survive and take care of a family, or a single mom, making sure her child is fed, clothed, and taken care of while she works.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: zed on August 05, 2011, 08:10:05 PM
thanks for your replies.

it seems that we won’t be able to further discuss this because the replies are based on only a single entity - raw facts and evidence, which is fine to a degree.

We can live our life logically with facts, evidence and only things we can touch - I think that’s a given and normal, but I intended to promote further thinking of the things we can’t yet undeniably prove.(see here I didn’t say know, there is a difference) it’s a bit like trying to measure distance with a scale. it doesn’t work just.

I respect that people live their life with only facts and science and the other stuff that can’t be proven gets ignored, but I feel it’s very limiting don’t you think?

here’s an analogy   - if I say that flower smells like cinnamon and honey but you don’t agree with me does that make me wrong or right? I can’t prove to you that it smells like that you just have to take my word for it, just like my belief that we are within a life beyond tangible things. notice here I didn’t say anything like leprechauns, fairies or ghosts because that’s not what I am talking about that’s silly.

there is evidence that supports some parts of my case and I’m not going to delve into it as it would be futile here because some of the evidence are based upon ideas contrary to what you think.

to assume that I’m some Christian fanatic trying to quote "You are just one more Christian who wants to use their magic decoder ring on their bible, deciding what is literal and what is metaphor as it is convenient to you" is very ignorant I have never said anything about Christian, my bible etc I was only posing my, quote "  loaded rhetorical language" which isn’t that what you guys wanted - my opinion based upon my own evidence? and if you don’t then maybe you guys can continue to plagiarise the science academics and live your life accordingly, I was merely posing my thoughts from actual facts that I have encountered and not by some book or some other person but from my own facts.
 Also, quote “At the base of it, your religion is based on your ignorant fear and your greed for something “more”. Who said anything about religion and greed? geez that’s a strong word sounds like you’re the one with your anti-“religion” tornado answers -  I don’t believe in religion. I would say desire and eagerness to search for more – which I have said before should be a given.
   
to have this type of conversation and to be told why ask why and what’s the point searching, just be happy with what we know and forget the rest, and life is no big deal it’s just because it is... etc saddens me.
 I’m not making up lies just to pacify my need to find an answer that I’m scared about,  on the contrary I think its people who limit their perception of life with only things they can see and touch are the scared ones because they don’t have control/understanding of what is going on.

this is where we part (unfortunately ) because wether you believe it or not the fact is there is something beyond our tangibility and only the people looking for it will find it.

cheers




Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: zed on August 05, 2011, 08:24:39 PM
hi jetson thankyou for your ideas  - very true what you have said about philosophy and practicality.

also 3 interesting answers , i like people who do not attack the person for having a thought but put thier own thoughts up for consideration.

if we come from stardust then where did that come from? then where did that come from and that and that.... see what i mean where did the universe come from?

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: DVZ3 on August 05, 2011, 08:47:11 PM
if we come from stardust then where did that come from? then where did that come from and that and that.... see what i mean where did the universe come from?

Exactly! These are all great questions to ask and like JeffPT mentioned, our current scientific method has gotten us closer and closer to theories and reasons for cause and effect such as the origin of the universe.

It's people who claim to have all the answers and proclaim with such certainty of why we're here and where we came from with such conviction when it's purely just made up fantasy to cater to our natural human, instinctive urge for answers and so-called purpose as you describe that you have to sit back and question their intellectual honesty.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on August 05, 2011, 08:54:16 PM
here’s an analogy   - if I say that flower smells like cinnamon and honey but you don’t agree with me does that make me wrong or right?

That depends.  Are you lying about how it smells to you, or not?  The answer is either true or false, and the subject matter isn't the flower - it's your mind and senses, and how they're perceiving the flower.  A lie-detector or something like that might be able to determine the answer directly, but observing your behaviour might give some insight as well.

Note that the only question is whether you are telling the truth, because you are the authority on your own opinions.  You know what they are better than anyone else does.  You can consult yourself in order to find out the truth of the matter.  You know whether the flower smells like cinnamon and honey to your senses.

I can’t prove to you that it smells like that you just have to take my word for it, just like my belief that we are within a life beyond tangible things. notice here I didn’t say anything like leprechauns, fairies or ghosts because that’s not what I am talking about that’s silly.

Notice the parts of my previous paragraph that I emphasized?  They are the parts that break your analogy entirely.  Whether we are "within a life beyond tangible things" - whatever that means - is not something you have a way to know.  You are not an authority on the matter, able to consult with yourself and see the truth of it.  The crux of the matter is not whether or not you're telling the truth - instead it's how you can know in the first place.

Were you aware of this fatal flaw to your analogy when you posed it?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on August 05, 2011, 08:58:50 PM
hi jetson thankyou for your ideas  - very true what you have said about philosophy and practicality.

also 3 interesting answers , i like people who do not attack the person for having a thought but put thier own thoughts up for consideration.

if we come from stardust then where did that come from? then where did that come from and that and that.... see what i mean where did the universe come from?

Zed, no need to part ways, just remember that your opinions and thoughts and ideas will be challenged here.  It's nothing personal, so try not to let it bother you!

Anyway, believe it or not, I do think about those questions you asked.  I do wonder where the universe came from.  I wonder what was before the big bang, seems a logical question in my mind.  But maybe there was nothing.  No space, no time, just nothing.  That's an idea that is illogical and logical simultaneously for me.

I also wonder if we are an experiment, on a spec of dust, in some kids closet, in another universe that is infinitely larger than our own.  Weird, but just about as likely as some god porting the whole mess together one day and then claiming we need to worship him or burn in he'll forever.  Don't you think?

Keep asking questions, and keep considering that no one has all of the answers.  There's really no need for us to cling to tightly to an ideology, and there's certainly no reason to condemn each other for picking the wrong world view.  We should be learning from each other.  Keep in mind though, that facts and evidence are very important, for they separate things that are simply stated from things that have facts and evidence to support them.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: albeto on August 05, 2011, 09:03:10 PM

I respect that people live their life with only facts and science and the other stuff that can’t be proven gets ignored, but I feel it’s very limiting don’t you think?
.
.
.
.
this is where we part (unfortunately ) because wether you believe it or not the fact is there is something beyond our tangibility and only the people looking for it will find it.

cheers

I suggest the only way you can and do know things yourself is through sensory experiences.  You, like the rest of us, learn through sensory experiences such as the visual experience of reading a holy book, the auditory experience of listening to a trusted advisor speak, the physiological experience of various emotions as they are assigned to events in memory recall, etc.  This is all tangible, chemical, physical.  In what way do you understand knowledge to be different? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on August 05, 2011, 10:54:06 PM
We can live our life logically with facts, evidence and only things we can touch - I think that’s a given and normal, but I intended to promote further thinking of the things we can’t yet undeniably prove.(see here I didn’t say know, there is a difference) it’s a bit like trying to measure distance with a scale. it doesn’t work just.

You are absolutely right!  And here is what I say to the things I don't yet know.  "I don't know."  See how easy that is?  What some other people say is, "I don't understand this, so I am going to attach one possible answer (in a literally infinite number of answers) to it and live life as if my answer IS true.  Atheists generally don't do that. When we don't know something, we generally say we don't know it, and wait for the evidence to come in before making a judgement.

Atheists don't try to measure distance with a scale. They try to use the right tool for the job.  Whereas, a religious person tries to measure distance with their feelings and intuition.   

I respect that people live their life with only facts and science and the other stuff that can’t be proven gets ignored, but I feel it’s very limiting don’t you think?

I think its the only honest way to live.  Until a better way to determine truth comes along, why should you hitch your wagon to a few remotely possible answers to questions that you can't yet bring the ultimate truth detector (scientific method) to bear on?

here’s an analogy   - if I say that flower smells like cinnamon and honey but you don’t agree with me does that make me wrong or right?

I don't know.  Do I have a rational reason for disagreeing with you?  Have I smelled the flower?  Do I have a reason to lie to you and say it doesn't smell the way you say it does?  Do you have a cold and your nose is stuffed up?  Do I?  Have you had some sort of surgery that affected your sense of smell?  Did I?  If we disagreed as to the smell of a particular flower, and for some reason we really needed to know who was right, couldn't you just run a study with 1000 people smelling the flower and writing down what it smelled like?  That would be a good way to determine who was wrong or right. 

I can’t prove to you that it smells like that you just have to take my word for it, just like my belief that we are within a life beyond tangible things.

Just do the study. 

Just taking someone's word for it is a fools errand.  What if someone told you that they believed we are all slaves to the proklantus that exist inside our bodies?  Do you believe you should simply accept this uncritically?  I am saying that your belief is wrong. Show me the study that proves we are within a life beyond tangible things, and I will believe you.  You make it seem like we are incapable of believing what you say.  That's simply not true.  You've just given no logical reason to think it's the truth.  I'm not going to just trust you on it.  No.

notice here I didn’t say anything like leprechauns, fairies or ghosts because that’s not what I am talking about that’s silly.

If you could provide verifiable evidence of a leprechaun, I would believe that they existed.  But I will not just take your word for it.   

there is evidence that supports some parts of my case and I’m not going to delve into it as it would be futile here because some of the evidence are based upon ideas contrary to what you think.

In other words, you do not believe it would be sufficient enough to convince another person.  That tells you something, right there. 

to assume that I’m some Christian fanatic trying to quote "You are just one more Christian who wants to use their magic decoder ring on their bible, deciding what is literal and what is metaphor as it is convenient to you" is very ignorant I have never said anything about Christian, my bible etc I was only posing my, quote "  loaded rhetorical language" which isn’t that what you guys wanted - my opinion based upon my own evidence?

But that's just the thing.  You don't have any evidence.  You want us to just believe in something because you say we should.  That doesn't make any sense. 

and if you don’t then maybe you guys can continue to plagiarise the science academics and live your life accordingly, I was merely posing my thoughts from actual facts that I have encountered and not by some book or some other person but from my own facts.

What facts?   You mean stuff you don't understand? We might not understand it either, but we don't try to pretend like we do.  That's what you are doing.

Also, quote “At the base of it, your religion is based on your ignorant fear and your greed for something “more”. Who said anything about religion and greed? geez that’s a strong word sounds like you’re the one with your anti-“religion” tornado answers -  I don’t believe in religion. I would say desire and eagerness to search for more – which I have said before should be a given.

Jesus man.  Who doesn't have a desire and eagerness to search for more???  This is the essence of scientific discovery!  It's what science is all about.  And do you know what the most reliable truth finding thing we have at our disposal is?  You guessed it; the scientific method.  So stop trying to equate your feelings, your gut impressions, and your own non-evidence based opinions with the answers we can generate from the proper use of a far more accurate truth detection process. 

to have this type of conversation and to be told why ask why and what’s the point searching, just be happy with what we know and forget the rest, and life is no big deal it’s just because it is... etc saddens me.

What the hell are you talking about now?  This is ass backwards.  Science is a continuous stream of discovery.  It is never happy with how much we know.  Only religion says "stop trying to learn more."

It seems you have it in your mind that all of us are simply never going to hear what you are saying.  We DO hear you.  We understand your wishful thinking that there is something more to this life.  We really do.  Most of us probably feel the same way.  But that does not mean it's true, and that's the point we are trying to get across to you.  What do you think would happen to science if someone discovered evidence for something like a "spirit" or a "supernatural creator"?  What discipline do you think would be FIRST on the scene in trying to figure out what this "spirit" is?  It would be science.  New discovery is what drives it. 

I’m not making up lies just to pacify my need to find an answer that I’m scared about,  on the contrary I think its people who limit their perception of life with only things they can see and touch are the scared ones because they don’t have control/understanding of what is going on.

They aren't lies.  They are delusions.  You are making stuff up that you honestly might think is true.  It's a bit nutty. 

And what are we scared of?  Are WE the ones afraid of saying "I don't know", or is that you?  Are WE the ones who go through life accepting what can be proven with evidence and reasoning, regardless of the consequences, or is that you?  No sir, you are scared.  We are not.  We don't live life as if we know something we don't.  You do. An atheist lives life accepting what can be reasonably proven and being skeptical of the rest.     

this is where we part (unfortunately ) because wether you believe it or not the fact is there is something beyond our tangibility and only the people looking for it will find it.

Or you could be deluding yourself.   

Cya.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: zed on August 05, 2011, 11:38:26 PM
hi jeffpt if you have read the earlier posts you will have more of an understanding of what i was trying to say "What the hell are you talking about now?  This is ass backwards".... i was refering to a past comment about me. i should have put the quote thing i but not sure how to do it.

look you guys dont even know or want to know the facts i have about what i am saying, you presume im some fairy with a delusion, have you asked ? no !! your just eager to get on the fact wagon and wait for answers to come to you about the things you dont know.

furthermore i dont take this personally and aware that people disagree with what i am saying (obviously as we are in this website) it seems that my METHOD of putting my opiniopn across has more poeple with a back up rather than the ISSUE itself - besides jetson he has given his speel and his OWN philosophy and not just critical backlash... to all you tony abbott supporters

the analogy was a little vague i agree but as expected it was typically di-sected to bits and not taken for what it was - just an example, if you didnt get what i was trying to say than it will be pointless for me to explain.

after all, what i have come to conclusions with (because this was a futile quest before i started) is that i know there is something beyond the tangable (dont know exactly but am close) - you havnt asked how i know so it would be pointless to share because i dont think you want to know and dont believe me,  does that make me wrong just because you cant measure it and disagree??

Do not try to assume that you know what spirituality, god, religion means because you have admitted you dont and cant agree or measure it - yes there are fanaticals out there giving other people a bad stigma, thats with everything even athiests but i dont conclude with it. the truth is in the mess somewhere but its there.

the fact is you measure everything by logic, evidence, science etc which is the same as i do and its fine, but i also live my life a little beyond this and it cannot be measured.

beyond this we are going in circles

thanks for an opportunity to share my thoughts,
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on August 05, 2011, 11:53:11 PM
look you guys dont even know or want to know the facts i have about what i am saying, you presume im some fairy with a delusion, have you asked ? no !! your just eager to get on the fact wagon and wait for answers to come to you about the things you dont know.

The alternative is to make things up.  That is dishonest.

the analogy was a little vague i agree but as expected it was typically di-sected to bits and not taken for what it was - just an example,

No, it had a fatal flaw that bore directly on the topic at hand.  I didn't stretch it beyond its boundaries.

if you didnt get what i was trying to say than it will be pointless for me to explain.

I got what you were trying to say just fine.  And you were wrong.  The reason you are wrong is the same reason that the analogy was flawed.

Are you willing to correct yourself when you find you've made a mistake?  That would be the open-minded thing to do.

after all, what i have come to conclusions with (because this was a futile quest before i started) is that i know there is something beyond the tangable (dont know exactly but am close) - you havnt asked how i know so it would be pointless to share because i dont think you want to know and dont believe me,  does that make me wrong just because you cant measure it and disagree??

You don't know what I and others on here (don't) want.  To imagine that you know what I and others on here (don't) want is very arrogant of you, considering you don't know us.  I suspect you are using this presumption about peopls' characters as a way to excuse yourself from being honest.  That would be consistent with your behaviour up to this point.

Do not try to assume that you know what spirituality, god, religion means because you have admitted you dont and cant agree or measure it -

Actually, spirituality, "god", and religion are very measurable.  Psychology, anthropology, and sociology have made great advances over the past century in examining and understanding the reality of spirituality, "god", and religion.  Do you believe that that trend is something that should be encouraged?

yes there are fanaticals out there giving other people a bad stigma, thats with everything even athiests but i dont conclude with it. the truth is in the mess somewhere but its there.

Stigma is certainly a problem.  But sometimes the reputations people earn for themselves are mistaken by those same people as "stigma" in order to avoid responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.

Quote
the fact is you measure everything by logic, evidence, science etc which is the same as i do and its fine, but i also live my life a little beyond this and it cannot be measured.

Everyone lives their lives "beyond" those things.  Humans aren't particularly smart or rational creatures.  That doesn't mean that we should go around making a virtue out of our failure to think clearly.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on August 06, 2011, 12:26:11 AM
after all, what i have come to conclusions with (because this was a futile quest before i started) is that i know there is something beyond the tangable (dont know exactly but am close) - you havnt asked how i know so it would be pointless to share because i dont think you want to know and dont believe me,  does that make me wrong just because you cant measure it and disagree??

Well, Zed, if you 'know' there is 'something beyond the tangible' that alleged knowledge is based on something.

The big question is this:  Is there any way at all that we can assess that knowledge objectively?  If it's just something that lives in your mind and we can't reproduce it, there is currently no way to determine if it's a real phenomenon or something that your own brain synthesized.

So, to answer the question "does that make me wrong just because you can't measure it," the answer is "You're not necessarily wrong, but your experience isn't of any use to us in its current form."

Quote
Do not try to assume that you know what spirituality, god, religion means because you have admitted you dont and cant agree or measure it...

I don't think anyone, including you and Me both, can know what spirituality, god, religion mean -- We can and do discuss them at length, and some of us may even have subjective "spiritual experiences," but it's a long, long way from there to actual knowledge.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: monkeymind on August 06, 2011, 07:58:24 AM
Hi Zed:

Welcome. I for one, am interested in the facts you have gathered from your life experiences, which lead you to believe whatever it is you believe.

If you come back....Would you mind sharing?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on August 06, 2011, 08:06:14 AM
hi jeffpt if you have read the earlier posts you will have more of an understanding of what i was trying to say "What the hell are you talking about now?  This is ass backwards".... i was refering to a past comment about me. i should have put the quote thing i but not sure how to do it.

Oh, if you were quoting others or those words were not yours, then I apologize for what I said.  If your opinion is not that we are satisfied with what we know, then I was wrong to say what I did. 

look you guys dont even know or want to know the facts i have about what i am saying, you presume im some fairy with a delusion, have you asked ? no !! your just eager to get on the fact wagon and wait for answers to come to you about the things you dont know.

That's not true.  We want to know what facts you can bring to the table.  I personally simply want to know what the truth is.  I don't care if it's what I already think or if it's what you think, I would rather know the truth than continue to believe a lie.  If you can show me how I am wrong (with the proper tools), then I will believe you.  The problem is the validity of your facts.  If you feel they are not going to be convincing, then they obviously are not facts. 

You are right about wanting to wait for the answers.  That's the smart thing to do, isn't it?  If you are looking at a box and you don't know what's inside, would you rather just go with your gut, or with some sort of vague intuitive feeling in your brain to determine what's inside?  Isn't it better to just wait for someone to open it? 

furthermore i dont take this personally and aware that people disagree with what i am saying (obviously as we are in this website) it seems that my METHOD of putting my opiniopn across has more poeple with a back up rather than the ISSUE itself

The difference is simple.  It's not relevant what you think is true, anymore than it's relevant what I think is true.  It's all in what you can reasonably prove to be true.  If we don't have proof, then we're just spitballing ideas.  Fun, yes.  Useful in determining truth, probably not. 

the analogy was a little vague i agree but as expected it was typically di-sected to bits and not taken for what it was - just an example, if you didnt get what i was trying to say than it will be pointless for me to explain.

Did it seem like we didn't "get" what you were trying to say?  Or was it that we "got" what you were trying to say and completely disagreed with it? 

after all, what i have come to conclusions with (because this was a futile quest before i started) is that i know there is something beyond the tangable (dont know exactly but am close) - you havnt asked how i know so it would be pointless to share because i dont think you want to know and dont believe me,  does that make me wrong just because you cant measure it and disagree??

Here's some advice.  If your conclusions have come from some sort of personal experience that only you underwent, some near death thing, something someone else told you happened to them, some ghost type event, or some unlikely (yet remotely possible) unexpected event that went in your favor, then please understand this is NOT evidence of something beyond the tangible.  If you have something outside of all of those things; something we can test for ourselves, then please present it.  Otherwise it's not worth it.  It is entirely possible that whatever event or situation you experienced is explainable in natural terms that we just don't fully understand yet.  You have attached the word "spirituality" to something, probably without exploring the possibility that it could be entirely natural and we just don't know how it works yet. 

Why don't you tell us what your "facts" are?  Maybe you will be the first one to stump us all! I would love to hear them either way.  But if what you say is  unconvincing, then maybe you should have the courage to admit that you might be wrong.  After all, either you are wrong, or we are wrong.  "Spirituality" is either a real thing, or it isn't.   I really could be wrong here, but its quite possible that you're wrong here too.  Remember that.  It should come down to proof, don't you think?

Do not try to assume that you know what spirituality, god, religion means because you have admitted you dont and cant agree or measure it
- yes there are fanaticals out there giving other people a bad stigma, thats with everything even athiests but i dont conclude with it. the truth is in the mess somewhere but its there.

Or there is no such thing as spirituality or god.  That might explain why billions of people can't agree or measure it.  When people experience things they don't understand, they have a tendency to assign a reason to them, regardless of whether or not they can verify that reason.  That's why the "spirituality" thing is so popular.  Because it's an easy answer to a difficult problem.  That doesn't make it the right answer though.   

the fact is you measure everything by logic, evidence, science etc which is the same as i do and its fine, but i also live my life a little beyond this and it cannot be measured.

In other words, you use logic, evidence and science as the most useful tool for understanding the truths about our universe, but when science can't be brought to bear on something, you just chalk it up to spirituality?  That hardly sounds like a reasonable stance to take.   

You don't live your life a little beyond this one.  You just think you do.  It really could all be in your head.  We ALL experience things we don't understand in our lives.  All of us do.  That doesn't mean we get to stick the flag of spirituality into some sort of strange event.  The brain can do amazing things, and we don't understand them all yet. 

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: anon0404 on August 07, 2011, 04:55:07 AM
I am. Done. With online forums. After this post. I swear. It's kind of an addiction I'm kicking. And it's not because I'm convinced I can't change any of your minds. I pretty much gathered that before I even put down my first abstract post. It kind of comes along with proposing abstract philosophies to atheists who base their existence on currently proven facts, which, if I have not already made clear, is a VALID way of living.

I already did the whole debate thing in high school. When it comes down to it, we'd just break each others' responses down repeatedly and go round and round in circles without being able to actually "prove" the other one wrong. Quite frankly if I had accidentally stumbled upon a forum a couple of weeks ago called "Why God Hates Fags" I would have thrown pro-atheistic arguments at them instead, because it's, and I hate to admit it, more fun to be the adversary than the follower. Especially because from my computer screen you are all anonymous, and for most of us, nothing we type or read here will have any greater impact on our day-to-day lives.

Debate is a great asset to co-existence, but quite frankly, I'm tired of beating dead horses on the internets. At least when I have these sorts of discussions face-to-face, there are logical points to end on. But for all intensive purposes, let's just say that you guys won the debate going on here. I could beg to differ, but you all will beg to differ more, so from a technical standpoint, if I back down, I lose. So that's exactly what I'm doing.

Still, zed's posts and the subsequent responses to them made me feel compelled to weigh in one last time, because while the majority of you for the most part scoffed at the ideas he was proposing, you did so in a respectful manner. You did the same for me last week, too, for that matter, and for that, I thank you. So instead, I'll mainly be using this post to flame velkyn. Because he brought me say hurtful things to atheists, and honestly, I like most you guys. And I was referred to as an asshat for something I said, something about you guys loving dumb things, which was partially sarcastic, but if you're actually a moron, velkyn, then I'm sorry, but you unconditionally love stupidity and truly believe the most asinine things you read and/or think up and will repeat them religiously. But in all actuality, yeah, I deserved the asshat comment. Unfortunately, I am bound to stand by what I said because it was necessary for me to speak in a manner that an asshat like you, velkyn, could grasp and respond to in the asshat manner that you did. Asshat.

In all my years of posting on various forums, I never flamed people, even if I really wanted to, out of respect for the moderators that have to put up with any aftermath. So, I apologize, especially to Jetson and screwtape, but this is going to be very cathartic for me. And then I recommend you ban my account, because I have a feeling I'll totally deserve it. But I'd like to take this opportunity to take a more liberal approach to my first amendment rights for a moment.

But you know what, velkyn? Yeah, you're totally right. Any one of us that questions science for a mere second is a god-loving, bible-thumping moron who hates the advances, wonders and, dare I say it, miracles that science has brought to the advancement of mankind, such as my ability to call you an asshat over the internet. I HATE science. That's why I use the internet to follow up on current events more than the my TV. And why I work instead of killing people to pay rent and gain my worldly possessions. It's why I take Advil when my head hurts. It's why I go through the drive-thru with my new car to pick up hot food when I'm too lazy to go hunt and kill the food myself. And why when I'm pissed off at the world I shoot people in the head with assault rifles that don't even exist yet on my PS3 over the internet instead of putting a pointy rock through a stick and getting institutionalized after giving the first guy a concussion because guns are just too scientifically advanced, after all. Yep, you called me on it, I absolutely hate science. It's why I'm trying to get into the medical field and help people with medicine and technology instead of going into my room and saying prayers for them to someone or something that may or may not be there, and if it is there, may or may not be listening, and if it is listening, may or may not give two shits about me or the people I want to help. It's all because I hate science.

And after all, it's not like Einstein, one of the greatest scientific geniuses in recent history, said anything about imagination being more important than knowledge. It wouldn't make any sense at all to come up with a hypothesis and conceivable means to test it. We should just keep reading out of science books and accept everything they say as indisputable fact. I mean, scientists couldn't possibly keep testing these findings every time a new hypothesis is brought to the table to make sure the findings are still accurate or possibly stumble upon something that blows all the other findings out of the water. It's not why they went to school or what they're paid for or anything. And even if he had said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand," and if it were plastered on the walls of a large number of science classrooms across the nation, I'd still have trouble finding his opinions more valid than those of an asshat on the internet, who, unlike his counterparts who often show research and/or evidence to back their statements, offers nothing but his beliefs in much the same manner as he blames his religious adversaries of clinging to so tightly. His beliefs that he read out of a book or heard someone else say first, and he now recites like scripture.

You, velkyn, are everything that is wrong with atheism. I'm not calling atheism wrong. I'm talking about elitist pigs like you who condemn everyone that takes something positive out of a belief structure that doesn't coincide with your own. Why don't you go and paint your rainbow picket sign claiming the Rapture is here and all of us deserve the hell we're living in, and stand with your brothers and sisters outside of funerals for people who lived with an actual sense of honor? Because based on what I've read from you, I honestly can't tell the difference between you and them. It's a different package with the exact same product inside: a brainwashed, extremist zealot.

When I said atheism is just as dangerous to society as religion, I was referring to people like you. It's further evidence that no matter how advanced our species gets, there will always be extremists more concerned with bringing everyone to their way of thinking than allowing people to think for themselves. You are likely a latent terrorist and almost certainly a communist, and no, I don't feel bad about calling you either one of those things because given your previous posts, you stopped actually reading five paragraphs ago and you are now currently just looking for snippets to pin me as my own version of some sort of protestant. Well, here's a snippet for you: "BAAAH! BAAAAH! BAAAAAAAH!!" You're a fucking sheep, you're a hypocrite, and you're doing as much good for propagating atheism as every idiot who's ever gotten behind a podium to preach fire and brimstone thinking they're going to convert non-believers to Baptism that way. No, the only people that people like you convert are more extremists looking for another sorry excuse to wage war. It doesn't matter the belief structure. In the end, you're a war-monger, and I cannot support you regardless of whether or not I believe anything you have to say or how much proof you have. Because you're still a war-monger. And an asshat.

You speak out against deities and yet you openly cast judgement. Who the fuck do you think you are, God? God is a construct, which is in effect inferior to the general mindset that constructed it. So here I am, sinking down to the level of your God and casting judgement just as freely as you do. You're no atheist. You're a Anton-Lavey-Brand-Satanist. You are so self-absorbed that you cannot and will not exercise any patience or forgiveness for the innate stupidity we're all born with. You live in complete, blissful denial of your own ignorance, while attacking any threat to you being able to worship yourself as though you have some kind of superiority over dissenters just because the textbooks agree with you.

I hate to break it to you, but being right does not make you superior to the rest of us in any way. I may be right about everything I'm currently saying, but that doesn't give me any real power over you. In fact, at the moment, it makes me a total douchebag. I would just like you to take into serious consideration that that's what you paint yourself as every time you open your mouth. Maybe that's going a little far, as I've never met you in real life, but I've met plenty of your kind. Christian, Jewish, Atheist, a parent, whatever. Any of you assholes with such a smug sense of self-worth like you've discovered some ground-breaking meaning (or lack thereof) to life and you're just dumbfounded over the fact that anyone could possibly see the world any differently from the way you do. Or maybe you're just plain dumb, I don't know. At the very least, let's say it's what you seem like every time you're on this forum and your fingers come into contact with a keyboard.

The only thing coming your way with the resentment you extremists harbor is more resentment in return, and maybe a good sucker punch, if society is lucky enough. The theist island you propose should have a separate section for people like you so that the all the sick who fear technology and science can pray for you while you tear each others' throats out because you can't reach a common consensus on what kind of raft to build.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 07, 2011, 07:20:53 AM
Some people love to hear themselves talk.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on August 07, 2011, 07:38:14 AM
Good Sig up for grabs -

I hate to break it to you, but being right does not make you superior to the rest of us in any way.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 07, 2011, 07:44:59 AM
That's coffee on someone's keyboard.

Nice of you to not to snag it up for yourself.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on August 07, 2011, 07:57:47 AM
A new concept, self banning!  HAL, can we make a button?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on August 07, 2011, 01:20:48 PM
To anonymous bloviating asshat0404: velkyn, like me, is a she, not a he.

Jesus H Christ, for someone with nothing much to say, you took up a lotta bandwidth to say it.  I am 50-something years old, so let me guess, you are young enough to be my.....baby brother. Live a few years more, read a few good books, get a job, travel and learn about the world, then come back and see us sometime. We'll keep the light on for ya. &)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: patty_lt on August 07, 2011, 03:13:42 PM
For some odd reason (like staring at a wreck on the highway) this whole thread was amusing enough for me to finally post a comment. (I think I joined about 5 months ago?)

As a previously religious and completely de-converted Orthodox Jew, I often see the "faithful" (to whatever religion) failing to understand the concept that their feelings don't count in the evidence for spirituality.  In a way, I see their point.  If spirituality is accessed by feelings (only?) then atheists are incorrect to dismiss them.  Pointing out how unreliable feelings can be is beside the point to them.  You can not use logic to evaluate feelings and atheists remain stubborn in expecting the spiritual to be validated scientifically.

How do you get through to someone that significantly depends upon "feelings" in evaluating his/her world view to understand that until he/she does dismiss and distrust those very feelings, understanding the atheistic worldview is impossible?  Another problem is, of course, how are we supposed to "feel" something we don't "feel"? 

<patty waves to the ATT crowd>
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Historicity on August 07, 2011, 04:03:02 PM
That was quite a revelation from Anon404.  I never understood that Velkyn was so evil.  I never even understood that she was evil.

He says science knows nothing about truth.  He says the evidence for probability is the same as the evidence for magic.

I just took a commorative coin and flipped it 40 times in groups of 10.  There is, as you know, only 3 possible outcomes: Heads, Tails and the astronomically unlikely event that the coin lands on edge and stays there.  Here are my results:

1)  H = 6, T= 4
2)  H = 5, T = 4, E = 1
3)  H = 5, T = 5
4)  H = 4, T = 6

I've never been able to get magic to work very well.  I tried a few invocations to some popular religions and it didn't work but it's probably just me.   After all, people in comas don't get testable results from coin tossing.

So out of 40 it was Heads: 20, Tails: 19 which is what probability predicted.  BTW, on one toss the coin bounced on the rug and settled leaning against a piece of 2"x4" I have on the living room floor.  It was at an angle about 85° so nearly vertical.  That's the "E = 1".  It didn't come down heads or tails but came down resting on one edge.

So I don't know what would constitute "proof" of probability but there is some evidence suggestive of it.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Graybeard on August 07, 2011, 04:31:01 PM
It's further evidence that no matter how advanced our species gets, there will always be extremists more concerned with bringing everyone to their way of thinking than allowing people to think for themselves.
It's not people who think that I have a problem with. Pi = 3.00000 teach the controversy!
Quote
You are likely a latent terrorist and almost certainly a communist[1],
 1. Edit GB:I didn't believe that people said things like that outside of comic strips
Yes velkyn! Did you hear that??? I shouldn't be at all surprised if you had once read a book about a man who voted Democrat!!! Tell us, why do you hate America and make Baby Jesus cry?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: caveat_imperator on August 08, 2011, 08:16:55 AM
I may be right about everything I'm currently saying...

Trust me, you're not.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 08, 2011, 10:34:38 AM
wow, anon, I get all of this and get to watch you sin and lie about me too.  Wow, breaking God’s commandments all for me?  You shouldn’t have. ;)

Let’s see, how many pathetically typical Christian excuses have you used. 

- Those mean ol’ atheists won’t believe anything no matter what.

- I didn’t really mean what I said, I just was “joking”/presenting “someone else’s” viewpoint.

- I’m tired of beating dead horses, especially when I lose. And I really won but I wont’ show you why I think that since I really didn’t.

You’ve failed at the whole “debate thing” and I suspect you did no better in school, especially if you stomped your feet and did Parthian shots.  You are wrong in so many ways.  You have been shown to be wrong.  You have done nothing to show that we are wrong nor have you demonstrated that you are right. 

You are quite a little troll, aren’t you? ;D  As my friends have said, I’m, oh horrors, a woman.  Rather than getting answers to my questions and points, you come back with this little tirade full of schoolyard insults and outright lies.  And poor thing, you have to claim that others made you act like an asshat.  Can’t even take responsibility for that, can you?  I’m sure you’ve run away, but I’ll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Show how I am stupid and how I “love stupidity”.

The rest of your post is nothing more than strawman arguments about what I’ve said.  Yep, more lies and misrepresentations from one more good theist.  From my experience here, this is to be totally expected from a Christian who has been cornered by their own comments.  You lash out but you present not one rebuttal.  I suspect that your rantings are more revelatory than you might suspect. 

Oh and we even get misrepresentations about Einstein.  Yes, he did say
Quote
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
  I suspect that Einstein would not have accepted that any random claim is true since we can imagine it. That’s the old ontological argument and you can use it for any god.  Does that mean that all gods exist, Anon?   
Quote
It wouldn't make any sense at all to come up with a hypothesis and conceivable means to test it.We should just keep reading out of science books and accept everything they say as indisputable fact.
wow, even more lies.  How pathetic.  No one said this and you are a liar.   
Quote
For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand," and if it were plastered on the walls of a large number of science classrooms across the nation, I'd still have trouble finding his opinions more valid than those of an asshat on the internet, who, unlike his counterparts who often show research and/or evidence to back their statements, offers nothing but his beliefs in much the same manner as he blames his religious adversaries of clinging to so tightly. His beliefs that he read out of a book or heard someone else say first, and he now recites like scripture.
wow and more lies.  Sorry, dear, but I have shown research and evidence and do not do what you would have me do.  How sad.

Nice strawman of a atheist you’ve created there.  However, I am not that strawman.  I am amazed at the degree of lying you must do to avoid answering  my questions and requests, Anon.  I’ll post them again so you can actually do so: Nihilistic ideals?  What would those be?  You want to claim that you “know” that there is a “plan”.  Please do show us the evidence that you do. do show the evidence for your god.   Oh and you make such good claims, Anon, like this one “There's no truth to forget. Based on the Scientific Method, there's no truth, period.” and when shown how ignorant that is, you take a fit.  You are a hypocrite, Anon.  A hypocrite and a liar.  You wish to claim I am something I am not, for the soul reason to support your beliefs.  What does this say about those beliefs, Anon?   

You have yet to show how atheism, or me, is dangerous to society You have only come up with strawmen to attack since you can’t successfully attack anything else.  You want to call me a “latent terrorist” and a “communist”.  ooh, no not a communist.  &)  No, I am neither but nice attempts to make your strawman arguments even more ridiculous.  I think you’ve certainly succeeded in that. I must applaud you for giving me one more example of a theist who has lost it.  I’m sure you don’t feel bad about calling me such names and saying such lies.  It certainly doesn’t matter to you does it?  It would matter to me but then again I am a decent human being.  And sorry, again you fail and you lie since I have read all of your little screed.  I just had to enjoy it all for what it was. You’ve done such an excellent job of showing yourself as your own SPAG’ed religion.  And hmmm, repeating more lies and more strawmen.  Again, you have the opportunity to actually prove any of those accusations, Anon.  But you won’t and I know you for what you are. 

Oh and calling me a “warmonger”, oh my. :D  Yes, Anon, I do judge.  I have no magical book to tell me not to (or say to do so since it contradicts itself).  I can judge based on facts, on my experiences, etc.  I don’t accept baseless claims and I can see that you are offended by that since I dare to question yours.  I can judge quite well and have done well for myself in my intellect and judgement. Why shouldn’t I judge things, Anon? Because I can show you that you are wrong?  That seems to be the only reason you have to tell much such nonsensical things.  And no, I’m not a Satanist.  Sorry, you fail calling me that too. I find LaVeyan Satanism a religion for the selfish and lazy. It works well if you have the maturity of a three-year old.  I am definitely an atheist.  That does not preclude calling out ignorance when I see it.  I can be quite forgiving with ignorance but not with willful ignorance which is what you and so many other theists demonstrate.  And poor thing, making yourself “sink” down” to me, which isn’t me at all but your poor strawman that you can only attack since the real me actually challenges you.
Quote
I may be right about everything I'm currently saying, but that doesn't give me any real power over you.
Well, considering how you are not right about any of this, it certainly doesn’t give you any power over me.  You have been quite a pathetic human being.  And no, I don’t accept your baseless claim that I am anything like you, especially since you again have no evidence of such a thing and I have plenty of evidence to the contrary.  You seem to have issues with people who are right when you are wrong.  I would not like to be your parent.   You claimed to be a nihilist early on in your posts.  You seem to be just a whiny brat who has fantasies of harming people for being better than you are.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on August 08, 2011, 11:35:24 PM
Good Sig up for grabs -

I hate to break it to you, but being right does not make you superior to the rest of us in any way.

Oh, I don't know...I kinda like this one

You, velkyn, are everything that is wrong with atheism.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 54East on August 09, 2011, 09:32:59 PM
I have seen this question on You Tube and now found this website.  It confuses me because I do not see that God is NOT healing amputees any differently than he does non-amputees.  My brother-in-law is an amputee and has been healed.  Should not the question be "Does God heal?"?  Or just go back to the question at the root of everything:  does God exist?  (I say "yes").
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on August 09, 2011, 09:39:53 PM
What do you mean by your brother in law was healed?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 54East on August 09, 2011, 10:02:36 PM
My brother-in-law was very, very sick over several years.  He had a leg amputated, lost his eyesight, went into renal failure and was on dialysis, had open heart surgery (coronary bypasses), and battled uncontrolled diabetes.  Very sick.  Today he is a happy, active 70 y/o man who walks, has sight, is no longer on dialysis (has a new kidney), has a strong heart, and controlled diabetes.  He is the Scout Leader for his 10 y/o son's troop (yeah, my brother-in-law is 22 years older than my sister...go figure).  There was a long period of time that it seemed like my brother-in-law was going to succumb to his body's failures.  But he did not.  I call that healed.  Asking the question about healing amputees is just like asking about healing diabetics and bald people and fat people.  Is the question really "Why doesn't God make amputated limbs grow back?"  An amputee (and a diabetic and a bald person and a fat person) can be healed.  Be it by God or medicine practiced by doctors, they can be healed.  Of course one could ask "Why doesn't God heal everyone?"  But that takes us off on a different, more involved discussion...and I want to play some games before going to bed.  Thanks for letting me post!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on August 09, 2011, 10:11:35 PM
Welcome 54...and thanks for the reply.

Here's what I think.  There are believers who insist that God heals people through prayer.  These people pray, and God literally heals them, which means that God MUST be changing their actual physiology, do you know what I mean?  I mean, if God cures cancer, then God is actually removing cancer, or doing something to allow the cancer to go away.  There is no way for God to change a persons physiology without interacting with them at some cellular, or sub atomic level - something is changing, and credit is given to God.

Now, these same people insist that God is answering their prayers for healing, and actually healing people.  But, this NEVER happens to amputees.  So, even though God is powerful enough to physically change someone, in order to heal them, he NEVER does this for amputees.  And yes, the expectation is that God make the limb grow back.

Your brother in law was healed by a combination of great medicine, and the will to fight his disabilities and live as good a life as possible (based on how you described it.)  He was certainly not healed by God, as many believers claim is happening on a regular basis.  At best, if an amputee believes that God offers hope, then that could certainly contribute to an attitude that might correlate to a stronger will to fight disease and disability, and live a good life.  But the actual healing, not so much as a hint of evidence that any god is ever involved.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on August 09, 2011, 10:22:37 PM
My brother-in-law was very, very sick over several years... {He}is no longer on dialysis (has a new kidney)...

Hold it right there, 54East.  That new kidney was donated by another human being, and installed by a medical team consisting of humans.  I'd also hazard a guess that humans also designed and produced the immunosuppressant drugs he had to take to prevent his body from rejecting the kidney.

I work in the medical field, and it upsets Me when believers give credit to their god instead of to the people who really did the work.

Quote
Asking the question about healing amputees is just like asking about healing diabetics and bald people and fat people.  Is the question really "Why doesn't God make amputated limbs grow back?"

The question might as well be "Why doesn't God make amputated limbs grow back?" because that cuts to the central observation:  There is nothing supernatural going on, and no god has ever healed anyone outside the pages of its own holy book.

The amputee's limb is gone.  The diabetes is controlled with hypoglycemic agents and insulin and diet, but is still present.  "Divine" healing conveniently breaks down when it crashes into the current limits of medical science.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 54East on August 10, 2011, 12:55:37 AM
Moderator Edit: Cleaned up underlines, italics, and broke into paragraphs.

Please understand that I am working with the way this entire question is phrased.  If you want to say an amputee grows back his limb (not to sound trite), then that is what the question should say.  The question infers that because these people are amputees, they do not get healed.  It is worded as though the author is prejudiced.  It should not be accepted that everyone understands the meaning of healing of an amputee to be regeneration of a limb.  I do not know how to copy quotes from someone else so I can respond, so please allow me to do this in my one big paragraph:

Astreja: I, too, am in the medical field.  And I have heard doctors, nurses, x-ray technicians, and others give credit to God for MIRACLES when there was a reverse in an illness or condition that could not be attributed to anything done by those medical professionals.  Which would lead me to begin a discussion on the difference between "healing" and "miracle".  But I am too tired to get into it right now, and tomorrow is work and church  ;)  By the way, I noticed you capitalized the "Me" in your post, which would indicate that you consider yourself God...or you hit the shift key accidentally (I'm just kidding!!  Please don't lamblast me!)

Jetson: I actually have a problem myself with people believing that prayer to God convinces Him to heal someone (or perform a miracle), like he's a genie in a bottle.  I do not view prayer in that manner.  Prayer is communication with God, a means of developing a relationship with the One Who loves me more than anyone on this earth could love me.  Very loosely similar to talking with your fiance, learning who he is, what he likes, what he believes.  You marry and keep on talking.  You learn more and more about this person, become emotionally closer to him, love him more deeply.  You get to the point of trusting him.  Trusting he will love you through good and bad, he will protect you, he will accept you even when you fail.  Of course with a couple, that relationship must progress on behalf of both parties or the relationship will fail. 

When that relationship is between man and God, God already knows and loves and accepts man.  Man must learn to know and love and accept God.  Prayer is the best way to develop that relationship.  So...even though I have fervently prayed for God to heal someone or protect someone or to let me win a lot of money or to make me thin (always wanted to go to a faith healer and see if he would shove me to the floor and I get up thin!!)  But in that prayer--many times pleading--I am pouring out my heart to Him, telling Him my desires, developing that relationship.  Like in the married couple's relationship, the wife tells her husband what she wants, even if she know she isn't going to get it (because of finances or something that is physically impossible for her husband to do), so I tell God what I want because that is what helps me develop my relationship with Him.

Ultimately the goal is to get to "Your will be done" because I know that God's plan is perfect and mine is self-serving.
I apologize for such a long post.  Please don't kick me out of here!  I have recently become extremely interested in why atheists believe what they believe and want to learn more.  There are some real goofballs on You Tube who post their opinions (atheists and Christians alike), but I want some serious discussion.  Thanks.  Have a good night (or day, if you are on the other side of the world!)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 54East on August 10, 2011, 12:56:56 AM
Oh mercy!  I tried to underline a few words and look what a mess I made of my post!  I am not very computer-literate.  All that stuff is not supposed to be underlined.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: wright on August 10, 2011, 01:49:57 AM
Welcome, 54East. There's definitely a learning period for figuring out the posting controls, and I took awhile to get the hang of it too.

That said... it wasn't so much so much the underlining as the lack of paragraphs that really made me reluctant to slog through your first post. Please, in future break up long posts with at least one empty space between paragraphs, or at the very least indent.


Jetson: I actually have a problem myself with people believing that prayer to God convinces Him to heal someone (or perform a miracle), like he's a genie in a bottle.  I do not view prayer in that manner.  Prayer is communication with God, a means of developing a relationship with the One Who loves me more than anyone on this earth could love me.  Very loosely similar to talking with your fiance, learning who he is, what he likes, what he believes.

I believe that you do not see god and prayer in such a way. But there are those who do, and unfortunately they are very vocal. Moreover the Bible itself, particularly the Old Testament, is very explicit about portraying god and prayer just as the site's videos show.
 

I apologize for such a long post.  Please don't kick me out of here!  I have recently become extremely interested in why atheists believe what they believe and want to learn more.  There are some real goofballs on You Tube who post their opinions (atheists and Christians alike), but I want some serious discussion.  Thanks.  Have a good night (or day, if you are on the other side of the world!)

Long posts by themselves are unlikely to get you kicked out, though they do discourage many of us regulars from reading all the way through  ;), especially if unrelieved by paragraphs or other breaks. I for one welcome your curiosity and sincere desire to engage in discussion / debate.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 10, 2011, 08:22:26 AM
East54, Welcome.

You should intro, now that you have the posts.

From what I've read, I'd muse that you probably have some deep emotional need for there to be a god. If you did not have that conept in your life, to rely on, things would seem meaningless and cruel. I would not guess that you adopted your god belief because of bad circumstances, but that it is a fundamental crutch keeping you afloat.

Do you find it to be a coincidence that the predominant type of belief (christian type) in the time and place you live just so happens to be the one true belief? Do you think your experience with belief is any different than the experience of belief (held with just as much conviction and providing just as much comfort) of people born in other places and times throughout human history?

Just to probe the nature of your belief further: How old is the earth, and does evolution explain the history of life on the planet well?

Additionally, are you really willing and able objectively to examine your own belief behaviour and to think critically about it? Honestly? My impression, based on very little evidence, is no, you aren't. I'd like to be proven wrong.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: albeto on August 10, 2011, 09:49:06 AM
Please understand that I am working with the way this entire question is phrased.  If you want to say an amputee grows back his limb (not to sound trite), then that is what the question should say.  The question infers that because these people are amputees, they do not get healed.  It is worded as though the author is prejudiced.  It should not be accepted that everyone understands the meaning of healing of an amputee to be regeneration of a limb.

Hi East.  Are you suggesting healing is reaching emotional stability?  When one is settled with the idea of not having what they want, they are healed?   Is this what you mean?

Jetson: I actually have a problem myself with people believing that prayer to God convinces Him to heal someone (or perform a miracle), like he's a genie in a bottle.  I do not view prayer in that manner. 

With respect, I think you do.  Look at what you say again:

Prayer is communication with God,

This is the rubbing of the lamp - the action that must be done for a particular outcome.  For this reason, I like the term vending machine god.  This communication is your coin, you're hoping to get something of value and communication is the means through which this value is obtained.

a means of developing a relationship with the One Who loves me more than anyone on this earth could love me. 

This is the prize.  The genie, the vending machine goodie.  It isn't a relationship you get (because objectively, the relationship takes place in your head only), but the emotional pleasure of feeling loved, valued.  This is not just a desire, it's a need for humans.  For many primates, I think (I could be wrong, I'm thinking of that poor baby monkey experiment when one baby had a choice between a hard, impersonal food source or doll but no food and it chose the doll over food, suggesting social bonds are wicked strong instincts).  Anyway, I think this is just your version of the genie in the bottle and your rubbing it looks different than someone else's rub. 

When that relationship is between man and God, God already knows and loves and accepts man.

This is based on hearsay.  The "love" and "acceptance" you feel is the emotional response to external events.  In other words, God himself doesn't tell you he loves you, you interpret different things to *mean* he loves you.    It's a part of why this supposed relationship is all in your head. 

Ultimately the goal is to get to "Your will be done" because I know that God's plan is perfect and mine is self-serving.

One of the dangers I'm learning about the Christian faith is the conditioning to keep oneself subservient in hopes of avoiding anxiety and fear.  Interpreting things you do as self-serving or "sinful" avoids attending to a problem objectively and coming up with a practical solution based on all the information.  Instead, it keeps you in your place so you are eager to be obedient to someone who claims authority.  In a way, that's just as self-serving because it serves your desire to not fail or be judged incompetent by someone else.  It allows you to give up responsibility so you can avoid those feelings that accompany failure.  But see, if you didn't interpret things as "sinful," you might see failure as simple cause and effect, a matter of information to be applied to the next problem. 

I apologize for such a long post.  Please don't kick me out of here!  I have recently become extremely interested in why atheists believe what they believe and want to learn more.

I appreciate the mod cleaning up that post.  It happens.  ;-)

  I have a child with an autistic spectrum disorder and have had behaviorists in my home for many years exposing to me some of the mechanics behind behavior.  I find it fascinating so I hope you come back often. I'm new here myself, only recently realizing I didn't have the faith I had been telling myself I did.   Be aware, those deceptions you tell yourself will be exposed here.  It's nothing personal, it's a matter of getting straight to the point and not tiptoeing around it. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 10, 2011, 11:35:24 AM
54east,

All I see is one more theist who wants to assign the work of doctors and modern medicine to their god.  You ignorantly dont’ think of why this god had to wait for humans to come up with all of this nifty medical help, or why your god evidently hated amputees who dared to be injured long before c-limbs and blood banks, antibiotics, etc.  How many people died because your god didn’t get around to “revealing” those things?

I don’t care if you’ve heard other ignorant people give thanks to your god for “miracles”.  I’ve seen people give the same thanks to other gods with just as much evidence that anything supernatural happened.  Shall we worship Krishna since he gets miracles too?  You see, your limited exposure to other religions doesn’t allow you to see how similar they are and how much they claim the same baseless things.

I’m sure you’d like to try to distinguish between healing and miracle but your bible doesn’t.  So why do you want to split hairs?  looking for more excuses for your religion? 

Prayers do *nothing*.  We see no evidence of this at all, only baseless stories told by theists who are desperate for any evidence for their faith, which isn’t so much faith at all.  Your bible says to pray and all prayers will be answered positively and quickly.  Of course you want to redefine prayer since it’s more than obvious that prayers as the bible describes fail every single time.  And then there is the usual claim of a “relationship” with your god.  I have a relationship with my husband.  He shows me he loves me, he talks to me, and he does things for me.  That is a “relationship”.  Your god does nothing.  We see no evidence of *any* interaction, just the delusions of theists who all claim this relationship and not so surprisingly who claim to know all about this god no matter how much they conflict with the next believer of the same god.  I trust my husband because I have reason to.  I have no reason to trust a being that does nothing.  I’m sure lots of people have trusted this god and have died because of it.  Why is this, 54east?  Did they not do it “right”?   

I was a Christian once, thought I had this relationship with God.  And then I discovered that God did nothing.  I was losing my faith and prayed and prayed to God.  And I got nothing in return. Your prating that a relationship must be from both parties, that God already knows and loves, etc,  fails enormously in this instance.  Or do you want to claim some excuse on why this god wanted me to become an atheist?   
Quote
Ultimately the goal is to get to "Your will be done" because I know that God's plan is perfect and mine is self-serving.
what a nice self-serving lie right here.  No, you’ve decided that you need to self-edit your prayers since you *know* your god will not answer them.  Then when you want to make belive he does, you only count the ones that did have a positive result.  Again, this makes as much sense as praying to a milk jug. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 54East on August 10, 2011, 05:19:03 PM
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life, and then deciding how much knowledge I possess.  I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology.  I have no interest in what comes across in your post as spitefulness.  I want to respond to the other posts but am on my way to church and only have a few minutes.  Please do not direct any posts to me if you cannot get them translated into a more accepting tone.

All others:  thank you for cleaning up my previous lengthy post and for your perseverance in plodding through it.  I'll be briefer from now on and will be less wordy.  (Okay, so THAT pledge was broken before I even got out of the sentence!)  For the most part I am a happy woman who enjoys learning and uses humor freely.  I do hope that I will not offend anyone with my humor.

Ambassador Pony:  what is "intro"?  How is that done?  (I'm going to spend all my time just learning how to post!)

Peace to you all!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 10, 2011, 05:56:20 PM
Intro is short form for "introduction". After new users rack up three posts, like you have now, they gain the ability to start new threads. Most of the time, the first new thread they start is an introduction thread. That is done in the introductions section of the forum, you'll see it on the main page.

My post was a speculative digression about what I think I will see in that introduction thread. I also asked you a few questions to see where you're at. Will you answer them?   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 10, 2011, 08:46:06 PM
54East.
welcome to the forum.
Please don't mind velkyn.
She just uses the word "ignorant" a lot. that's it.
Just like we say "Hallelujah".

I am excited and thrilled to meet someone that values the relationship between God and man.
I liked your example of "genie in a bottle". Some people ordering God want they want and call it a prayer.

It's like telling God "you should listen to me, so I can believe you"
Do you think that will work? try that to your spouse. ;)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Brakeman on August 10, 2011, 09:10:02 PM
so 54east, tell us about your latest conversation with god..  describe it in detail..
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on August 10, 2011, 10:06:41 PM
so 54east, tell us about your latest conversation with god..  describe it in detail..
And let us know if you talk to him,why are you so ordinary? Why are you NOT extrodinary? Why has he not used you to heal an amputee? why has he brought you here to just spew BABBLE that is of NO use to anybody but you?

 Why has he not used you or any other followers for that matter to do something amazing? He could use you as a healer for cancer,aids,influenza,malaria,starvation,sids,downs syndrome,mental ilness,dimentia alzhiemers,Lou Gerhig's............... but NO ,why?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on August 10, 2011, 10:10:03 PM
 And 54 why did he leave the man in such a bad way in the first place?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on August 10, 2011, 10:24:28 PM
Astreja: I, too, am in the medical field.  And I have heard doctors, nurses, x-ray technicians, and others give credit to God for MIRACLES when there was a reverse in an illness or condition that could not be attributed to anything done by those medical professionals.

I'm also in the medical field.  And I can tell you that I have seen many instances where people get better or reverse a condition without any known reasoning behind it.  To chalk that up to God is to do so without evidence that it was God that intervened.  The only reason a medical professional would give credit to God is if they first believed that God worked miracles.  Of course, for them, things look like the work of God, because they have created in their minds a supernatural agent that has the capability to do such things.  Every religion out there does this.  Every single one.  Again, the problem is that they have no evidence that God (or Allah, or Vishnu, or what-have-you) had anything to do with it .  You don't see X-rays that say "Jesus was here" on them.  You don't have MRI's that show unequivocal evidence that the only possible thing that could explain a reversal of fortune is the hand of the Allah.  That stuff doesn't exist.  Yet because they THINK God exists, it automatically follows that they give God the credit.  The rest of us shake our heads and are honest enough with ourselves and say "I don't understand how this person got better, but that doesn't mean a supernatural entity is the only possible explanation."   

Now, on the flip side of this... What about all those times where someone went from perfectly healthy to horribly sick in a very quick period of time, and for no known reason?  Is this too, a "miracle"?  Would those same doctors and nurses and X-ray techs (all fallible humans, btw, who are capable of misreading previous exams and scans) also chalk these instances up to the work of their God?  Would you ever hear a doctor say, "I'm sorry sir.  Your son was perfectly healthy 20 minutes ago, and he just stopped breathing.  It must be a miracle!  God's plan is perfect, after all."  No, they would not.  Because they do not believe in a Deity that is willing to do such a thing.  Even though it is the EXACT SAME SCENARIO, only working against the patient instead of for them.  It is an event they do not understand, yet they do not classify it as a miracle.

Do you see the problem with the whole thing now?  The medical professionals who believe in God profess that anything they don't understand is obvious evidence for God, but only if it goes in the patients favor.  If it goes against the patient, however, it's not God.  It's just bad luck, or a turn for the worse.  I say there is no evidence that God is real, and an unexplainable turn for the better or for the worse is just something we can't explain... yet.   

I actually have a problem myself with people believing that prayer to God convinces Him to heal someone (or perform a miracle), like he's a genie in a bottle. 

So prayer to God is worthless in terms of making any sort of noticeable change in the world.  That's a old, but clever way to hide it.  How would a God that makes no noticeable change in the world differ objectively from one which isn't real?  If I said I believed very strongly in a God named PAkjfdlasj, and when you asked me to tell you why my god doesn't answer prayers, I said that he's just not in to that sort of thing, would that even remotely convince you that it was real? 

I do not view prayer in that manner.  Prayer is communication with God, a means of developing a relationship with the One Who loves me more than anyone on this earth could love me. 

Alright.  There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here.  Have you ever looked at the world around you?  I mean, taken a good look at things?  Around the world, millions of people are starving to death.  Tens of thousands of children die every day from starvation.  Cancer kills hundreds of thousands of people every year.  Plagues, famine, death, war, destruction are all over the place.  And a good portion of it is caused by religious belief.  Yet you sit there and think God is great because he's chosen to love YOU?  Do you think God loves everyone?  And if you do, what criteria would you use in real life to assess whether or not the most powerful being in the universe "loves" everyone?  There is abundant evidence throughout the world to prove beyond any doubt that if God is real, there is no chance that he loves everyone.  No chance. 

Very loosely similar to talking with your fiance, learning who he is, what he likes, what he believes.  You marry and keep on talking.  You learn more and more about this person, become emotionally closer to him, love him more deeply.  You get to the point of trusting him.  Trusting he will love you through good and bad, he will protect you, he will accept you even when you fail.  Of course with a couple, that relationship must progress on behalf of both parties or the relationship will fail. 

So... why is it that we let people who claim to talk to GOD roam free in society, but if people claim they talk to anyone other than God, we put them in a home? 

Look, 54East.  You do not have a relationship with God.  I'm sorry, but you don't.  And if you think you do, it is nothing more than an invisible friend, and perhaps you should seek some help for this.  You are making this out to seem like God is some sort of being you can have conversations with, and quite frankly, that's nuts.  Everything you said here is correct about human to human relationships, but God is only in your head.  Seriously, this paragraph is a bit disturbing. 

When that relationship is between man and God, God already knows and loves and accepts man.  Man must learn to know and love and accept God.  Prayer is the best way to develop that relationship.

White noise.  God isn't real.  Imagine me saying that to you and substituting the word God for Santa.  That is how I, personally, view what you are saying here.  What would you think of me if I said that to you?  Wouldn't you be like... whoa, this guy's lost it. 

So...even though I have fervently prayed for God to heal someone or protect someone or to let me win a lot of money or to make me thin (always wanted to go to a faith healer and see if he would shove me to the floor and I get up thin!!)  But in that prayer--many times pleading--I am pouring out my heart to Him, telling Him my desires, developing that relationship.

In other words, you were asking him to do something for you because you didn't like whatever situation you were currently in.  That doesn't sound like relationship building.  It sounds very childish.  Imagine if you were God, having to hear this crap all the time.  I imagine for him, it would be a lot like being in a car full of kids and they are all yelling that they want to stop for ice cream, and you can't stop for ice cream because nobody's eaten dinner yet.  And you're sick of driving because you've been stuck in traffic for 3 hours on the GW bridge and there is this freaking 18-wheeler in front of you that smells like chickens, and there's nowhere to pull off and....  Can you see God turning around and screaming, "Stop whining about the ME damn ice cream or I'm gonna' climb over this seat and spank the crap out of all of you!"

Truth is, every time you pour out your heart to God, nothing changes.  You even admit it.  God doesn't do anything.  Nothing changes.  Take it another step and ask yourself... wouldn't this be the exact same result that you would get if God did not exist?   

Also, I'm curious.  Why would you need to tell God your desires?  Doesn't he already know them?

Like in the married couple's relationship, the wife tells her husband what she wants, even if she know she isn't going to get it (because of finances or something that is physically impossible for her husband to do), so I tell God what I want because that is what helps me develop my relationship with Him.

Within reason, you could probably go about proving that you have a husband.  I mean, a daily interaction with the husband is a very good indicator that you have a husband. 

This whole thing is such a mind job.  You've got this invisible friend who you think you can talk to and develop a relationship with, and it's all in your head but you can't even see that.  You have anthropomorphized this God figure to be just like another person who you can talk to, and plead your case to, and develop this relationship with, yet none of it occurs in reality.  You don't see God, you can't hear him.  You can't sense him in any way at all, yet you still believe He's there. 

The way you cover up the non-evidence for this being is by giving it ZERO characteristics that could be verified in some way.  "Oh, I've got a problem with people who think God answers prayers," you say.  Guess what?  So do we!  Why?  Because God doesn't answer prayers.  But this is where your logic and ours part ways.  We, as atheists, then move on to look for other reasons why it might be reasonable to believe in God.  We look at the bible.... failure.  We look at the world around us... massive failure.  We can't hear, touch, taste, smell, see, test, measure, experiment on anything about God to know if it's real.  Soooo, wait a minute, maybe it's not real, we say!   Then the snowball starts to roll downhill. 

All we can do is sit here and listen to you rattle on about how to develop this relationship with your personal invisible friend, and it just makes me shake my head.  It's completely looney.  What sort of brainwashing does it take to convince someone that this stuff is true? 

Ultimately the goal is to get to "Your will be done" because I know that God's plan is perfect and mine is self-serving.

If this is true, then worshiping your God is just about the last thing I would ever choose to do.  I would never worship a God who's perfect plan includes death, war, famine, genocide, rape, murder, AIDS, cancer, starvation, and so many more terrible things. 

Why would a prayer such as "God, please cure cancer around the world" NOT be part of a perfect plan?  Why would a prayer such as "God, please give everyone some food" NOT be part of a perfect plan?  Are those self-serving?  Yet, God does not answer those prayers.  Are you saying the reason is that they are selfish prayers?   

I apologize for such a long post.  Please don't kick me out of here!  I have recently become extremely interested in why atheists believe what they believe and want to learn more.  There are some real goofballs on You Tube who post their opinions (atheists and Christians alike), but I want some serious discussion.  Thanks.  Have a good night (or day, if you are on the other side of the world!)

We don't kick out Christians until they earn it.  We like having them here. 

The thing about atheists, however, is that the only thing we have in common is what we do NOT believe.  We do not believe in God.  After that, there's many different takes on things.  I dare say that most atheists do not believe in God because there is no evidence that God exists. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on August 11, 2011, 12:40:21 AM
Astreja: I, too, am in the medical field.  And I have heard doctors, nurses, x-ray technicians, and others give credit to God for MIRACLES when there was a reverse in an illness or condition that could not be attributed to anything done by those medical professionals.

Coming from medical professionals, I actually consider that to be extremely unprofessional behaviour.  If they had put their beliefs aside for a moment and reexamined the "miracle" case in more detail, it might have led to a discovery that could have healed other people suffering from the same illness.

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By the way, I noticed you capitalized the "Me" in your post, which would indicate that you consider yourself God...or you hit the shift key accidentally (I'm just kidding!!  Please don't lambaste me!)

(Springy G pulls out Her membership card for the Asgard Deities Union, Local #204) Why, yes, I *am* a goddess; thanks for asking.  I'm not a big-G monotheism-type god, though; I'm one god among many.  My magisteria are:
In other words, I'm the goddess of various things that happen all by themselves.  I'm also agnostic as to My own divinity.   ;D
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on August 11, 2011, 02:35:10 AM
I actually have a problem myself with people believing that prayer to God convinces Him to heal someone (or perform a miracle), like he's a genie in a bottle. 

I am excited and thrilled to meet someone that values the relationship between God and man.
I liked your example of "genie in a bottle". Some people ordering God want they want and call it a prayer.
It's like telling God "you should listen to me, so I can believe you"

Hello John.  Hello 54.  You seem united that your god does not simply grant random miracles like a "genie in a bottle".  But your view seems quite different to that of many other believers who come here.  Take Flew, for example....

We reached a certain point on the trail where the one individuals water ran out, and myself and the other hiker in our slower group were down to about 3 liters collectively (?).....We stopped besides a big boulder to get out of the sun, and prayed.....After hiking for about 30 more minutes, we came across (a) Gatorade bottle in the trail.  Probably 45 minutes later, we came across (an) oasis.  I use the term loosely, it was simply a small pool of collected water for the rain the night previous.  It was the first and only we saw.

I am still in awe that God provided for us and preserved us.
The water, in both instances, was miraculous.

Flew is absolutely convinced that he and his group prayed to their god, and their god - like a genie in a bottle - produced (a) a gatorade bottle full of water, and (b) a pool of rainwater for them to drink from.

So I'm curious.  Are YOU guys right, that god doesn't just pop down and answer prayers?  Or is Flew right, that god is quite happy to grant miracles on request?  You can read Flew's full story on this thread, if you are interested --> http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19141.msg435970.html#msg435970 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19141.msg435970.html#msg435970)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 11, 2011, 10:03:28 AM
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life, and then deciding how much knowledge I possess.
well, then show us the evidence you claim to have.  If not, I will easily stand by my calling you willfully ignorant with your ridiculous claims.  Ignorance is a bad thing but it can be cured.  Are you willing to cure yours?  You claim I make assumptions, so show me I’m wrong.  I’d be more than happy to be wrong but I doubt that I am.   Show me how you aren’t just one more theist who wants to assign hard human work to their god and then can’t answer why their god evidently hated those who dared to be amputees before it got around to “allowing” humanity to discover pain killers, c-limbs, modern surgery, etc.  And show me why we shouldn’t worship Krishna as much as your god.  Tell me why that you would claim that people should trust this god since it *will* help them, when it’s so easy to show you’re your claim is utterly wrong.  Why did I lose my faith when praying to this god when you claim that this god would never let that happen?

Hard questions aren’t they?  And you should expect them since this is what I find wrong with your religion.  This is how I see Christian theology and the claims of Christians.
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I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology.  I have no interest in what comes across in your post as spitefulness.  I want to respond to the other posts but am on my way to church and only have a few minutes.  Please do not direct any posts to me if you cannot get them translated into a more accepting tone.
Sorry, I don’t care what you might want to claim as “spiteful” so you can avoid answering my points.  It’s a common attempt by many theists to find excuses on why not to answer atheists’ questions.  Rather than just answer, you want to excuse yourself.  In this reponse, you could have actually responded rather than taking the time to accuse me falsely of being “spiteful”. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 11, 2011, 10:06:42 AM
54East.welcome to the forum. Please don't mind velkyn.
She just uses the word "ignorant" a lot. that's it.
Just like we say "Hallelujah".
unfortunately for John, he's lying when trying to pretend that I do not mean "ignorant" when I say ignorant. Always good to see a Christian bearing false witness. It's certainly not as meaningless as "hallelujah".
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It's like telling God "you should listen to me, so I can believe you"
Do you think that will work? try that to your spouse. ;)
I'm rather sorry that John's spouse isn't as nice as mine.  However, the bible says that JC does miracles in order for people to believe, so answering prayers to show he is real is quite biblical.  Unfortunately, since that doesn't work, many Christians must ignore their own holy book as it is convenient for them. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 12:31:25 PM
Sorry 54east, looks like velkyn really meant to say"ignorant"

Hey velkyn mind if I ask you a question?

why were you a Christian? what made you a atheist?

just curious
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on August 11, 2011, 12:40:55 PM
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life, and then deciding how much knowledge I possess.  I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology. 

First, you have to separate the emotional charge of the word ignorant, we are all ignorant. To use an example, I am ignorant about syntax in the Chinese language.

Secont, you need to understand everyone here has been exposed to Christian theology, on average has read the bible more than the average Christian, and most were originally Christian, and a scant few were even Priests or Ministers. Don't be like a thousand fools before you and immediately go into the fallacy of "No True Scotsman," to say "but that isn't what a real Christian does/is/believes/practices/etc" because each Christian has their own set of beliefs of what a "real" Christian is...and it is always what they do/are/believes/practices.

Now that being said, I, for one, will be using language that may seem rude or in your face. This is not for the sake of spite, but in my opinion one of the reasons religion remain is politeness. To question them is forbidden territory, they are held above accountability of fact and evidence. When you have something held about fact and evidence, it is con man territory, the Emperor's New Clothes being a good analogy of how I see theology. An extensive description of the wonderful qualities of something that isn't there to begin with.

Being polite has to be dispensed with sometimes if you are to tell the truth.

It is back to basics:


(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand dieties man
has worshipped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 11, 2011, 12:55:44 PM
Sorry 54east, looks like velkyn really meant to say"ignorant"
Always nice to see a Christian backpedaling.
Quote
Hey velkyn mind if I ask you a question?
why were you a Christian? what made you a atheist?
just curious
I was a Christian because I was told it was true by people whom I trusted.  I had no reason to disbelieve because like many Christians, I was taught an incomplete bible, all of the inconvenient parts left out, and was given the usual excuses on why this god doesn't fulfill what it promised.  I was a Presbyterian. I taught Bible School in my church if you want to know how I was a Christian, served communion, sang in the choir, etc.

I became an atheist for a variety of reasons.  My church ripped itself apart on the word of one woman who said God talked to her in her garden.  I then read the bible myself, entirely front to back and prayed to God to help me keep my faith.  I thought going to the horse's mouth made more sense than paying attention to the Christians around me.  I read it as a beleiver with an open prayerful mind and waiting for God to communicate with me since I believed he would since that is what is promised.

Reading the whole bible is probably one of the quickest ways to become an atheist.  I found out why one never hears much about certain books and certain parables.  They reveal a god that is no better than any of the others I had read about, primitive and petty and very human.  I found a god that harms people for no action of their own, original sin, the flood, the ten plagues, etc.  I realized I was better than this god since I would not harm someone for someone else's "transgressions".   I found little better in the New Testament, with people being damned for not believing just because they weren’t born at the right place or time.  I knew this was wrong since why would that make them any less in a truly good god’s sight?  I found a “savior” that said it intentionally made sure some people would never believe and thus damned them for no fault of their own *again*. 

And getting back to those prayers, I prayed a lot to keep my faith.  And I got nothing.  Not a peep from this god.  No revelation like Thomas, nothing. If this god is all Christians say, that it wants all people to beleive in it, to worship it, that it Loves everyone, why would this happen?  At first, I had ridiculous thoughts, that I was the “anti-Christ” and was the “only” person this happened to. &)  But it seemed much more likely that this god didn’t exist just as Odin or Zeus or Amon-Re didn’t exist. There was no evidence for them so why think that any of these nonsensical claims were true, even if they were from people I trusted?  So, I read and I researched and I still prayed.  And the evidence mounted up that Christianity is just as mythical as the rest.  It claimed things happened and there is no evidence.  It claims to be the only font of goodness but it isn’t.  Christians lie and do horrible things in their god’s name and this god does nothing, though it had no problem in smiting peole who did so all of the time in those *stories*.  I found that the most basic science could show that the religion and its believers were wrong in its claims.  And I found that every theist uses their own magic decoder ring to create a religion and god that not so strangely supports everything that they want it to.

I’m sure you’ll have all sorts of reason why I wasn’t a TrueChristiantm or that I didn’t pray in the “right” manner, or I wasn’t “sincere” enough etc to excuse your god.  Just let me remind you that all of your excuses can and are used by every other theist whose god you don’t believe in. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Morgan on August 11, 2011, 03:27:56 PM
@54East
As a theist in the medical field, what is your stance on NDEs and the religious nature of a percentage?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 11, 2011, 03:48:03 PM
I call that healed....Be it by God or medicine practiced by doctors

You call normal medical procedures an act of your god?

How does the logic follow on that?

How do you qualitatively determine that your god acted in any fashion in order to claim god to have healed anything?

Quote
Asking the question about healing amputees is just like asking about healing diabetics and bald people and fat people.  Is the question really "Why doesn't God make amputated limbs grow back

No, the question is Why won't god heal amputees?

Christians claim to be healed for everything from gonorrhea to foot fungus, miraculously and completely.  No half ass qualifications of feeling better or having it temporarily subside, but full on magical suspension of reality due to the insertion of an act of a divine supernatural being.

Yet, when you talk about 'amputees' being healed, you don't cite an amputee that is miraculously and completely healed.  You don't cite any qualification that could even be understood in the same context that millions of christians already treat and claim miracle healings.  Are you not willfully obfuscating, based on a poorly made qualification of what you considered 'healed' by a god in comparison to what other christians claim of healing by the same god?

If you are not, then surely you have an objective logical answer to explain how you qualify normal medical procedures as an act of your god in a way that could be understood or known?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 11, 2011, 04:01:02 PM
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant

Ignorance is a term to describe a lack of knowledge.  To be exact:

Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

So you're not here to be called out when you ignore counter evidence to your own arguments?

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or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life

Velkyn did not engage in this, Velkyn quite correctly took a claim you made in this thread and compared that claim to all the contingent analogies, logical possibilities, and contradictory notions of your own premises/conclusions.  You were quite rightly called out on a very vague qualification you used to justify a claim.  You arbitrarily cherry pick a starting point from which to assume your qualification as an answer, as if god acting through medical doctors who used to have leeches was as much 'god' healing as medical doctors actually using more effective modern techniques.  Not to mention that your qualification makes it impossible to determine when a god is acting through a doctor and when a god isn't acting through a doctor, its just a vague assertion on your part.. begging more questions and demanding more explanations then you even bothered to offer.  A tautological answer that makes it impossible to separate gods existence from its non-existence is meaningless.

It can be summed up as ignorance.

The problem is also the kind of expectations we have on this forum, we actually expect theist to be somewhat honest and intelligent, but we often find that that is just not the case.  For me it feels like I'm talking down to a child, I find it hard to believe that I have to actually explain in very literal terms how poor your argument is, as I did in my previous post.  I'm really taken back that it doesn't seem as obvious as it is to me, so that leads me to ask questions and to question your own sincerity.  I don't see a patient, ethical, and responsible post in your first foray into the thread; I see an intellectually dishonest person willing to make up any absurd rationalization in order to answer the problem for themselves rather than others.

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I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology.

Excellent, here is your first lesson:

1. Your christianity is neither self evident nor derived in a manner to be understood as true or the only interpretation.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on August 11, 2011, 04:31:05 PM
Sorry 54east, looks like velkyn really meant to say"ignorant"

Hey velkyn mind if I ask you a question?

why were you a Christian? what made you a atheist?

just curious
I want to jump in here and try to prevent the "you guys are atheists because you want to live a sinful lifestyle" line of bullcrap. If there really was an all-powerful, loving god, and there was clear, unimpeachable evidence for that we would of course believe in it. There would be no reason not to believe in it. It would be delusional to deny it.[1]

We don't believe in any gods because there is no evidence. There is ample evidence that none of the gods people say exist actually do. We don't live more "sinful" lives than anyone else, sorry, no secret wild sex orgies[2] or nightly baby-eating demonic rituals. And if we do something out of the ordinary, whether good or bad, it is not because of any magical beings. It is because we are humans with a particular genetic tendency to be the way we are, given the cultural environment we are in. That's it. No gods necessary.

Except for the religion part, our lives are indistinguishable from a random roomful of Christians, Muslims, Jews or Zoroastrians. Not better or worse. We have members here who were hardcore drug addicts and criminals, who overcame these negative things and are living better lives-- without any magic beings. We have members who are happily married with kids and jobs and pets and homes in the 'burbs--without any magic beings. And we all have survived the ups and downs of life and continue to cope with them-- without magic beings.
 1. Whether we would want to worship it is another issue...if Santa or Vishnu or Satan or Darth Vader or Superman or Wonder Woman existed, would you automatically worship them just because they have magical powers?
 2. At least none that I have been invited to
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: fishjie on August 11, 2011, 04:40:27 PM
Christians commit sins all the time, so saying atheists are atheists because they want to sin is pretty silly.   If anything, the fact that I can commit ANY sin I want to (except blasphemy against the holy spirit) and get away with it because I am forgiven thx to the Blood of the Lamb would make me want to be a christian.   Amirite???

Case in point:  Ted Haggard - crystal meth + gay hookers = BI WINNING CHRISTIAN!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jetson on August 11, 2011, 07:01:38 PM
An atheist cannot commit a sin.  There are no sins.  That is a religious invention, and does not apply to atheists.  Atheists can make mistakes, commit crimes based on their communities laws, and cause grief and harm to others.  But that is true for all humans, regardless of their world views.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 07:41:13 PM
Velkyn.
I am not going to judge whether you were true or false Christian, because I don't even know you.
Only God knows.

but I still have few more questions, I am just curious, if you don't mind.

1)what did you think the whole bible was telling you when you were "believing"?
2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
3)what did you think the purpose of existence of bible
4)The bible says "going to church, serving communion, teaching bible, praying really hard" does not make one "Christian"
   then what would you say to that?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 07:55:37 PM
Christians commit sins all the time, so saying atheists are atheists because they want to sin is pretty silly.   If anything, the fact that I can commit ANY sin I want to (except blasphemy against the holy spirit) and get away with it because I am forgiven thx to the Blood of the Lamb would make me want to be a christian.   Amirite???

Case in point:  Ted Haggard - crystal meth + gay hookers = BI WINNING CHRISTIAN!
you are wrong.
Atheists are atheist because they don't want to believe, not because they want to sin.
try saying "I can commit any sin I want to" after you truly received the holy spirit and forgiven.
I can easly spot false christians this way.
the one mis-understood god's gift would say something like that, but if you look into the bible little deeper, that's not true.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on August 11, 2011, 07:58:58 PM
Atheists are atheist because they don't want to believe, ...

Why do you think an atheist doesn't want to believe?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 08:00:24 PM
or may I sould say "atheist just don't believe"
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on August 11, 2011, 08:02:45 PM
or may I sould say "atheist just don't believe"

Why do you think atheists "just don't believe"?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 08:25:16 PM
In a christina point of view it's a mistery.
my honest answer "I don't know"
answers I got in this forum "because there is no objective evidence"
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on August 11, 2011, 08:28:54 PM
answers I got in this forum "because there is no objective evidence"

Is the lack of "objective evidence" a good reason to disbelieve in Christianity?

If not, why not?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 08:38:26 PM
Like we agreed upon, "there are many things we don't understand, and not everything can be explained or have objective evidence"
You don't just disbelieve everything you don't understand, right?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: HAL on August 11, 2011, 08:39:14 PM

Is the lack of "objective evidence" a good reason to disbelieve in Christianity?

If not, why not?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Brakeman on August 11, 2011, 08:46:42 PM

1)what did you think the whole bible was telling you when you were "believing"?
2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
That was part of my problem, you're talking about FEELINGS!, what did I feel about hearing or reading about god? But christianity is more than just emotion isn't it? That someone's emotional state might lead them to believe is a very very weak argument for reality. Did anyone tell you, on the night you were saved, to be sure that it wasn't an emotional impulse, that you had to be sure god was answering you and make sure that it was not your imagination? Do you consul new christians not to believe until they are sure of an actual two way conversation with god?

..
4)The bible says "going to church, serving communion, teaching bible, praying really hard" does not make one "Christian"
   then what would you say to that?
Are you claiming that praying to god doesn't make one christian? Can you be a christian without ever praying to god?  That's a new one for me.. I thought I'd hard everything before..
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 09:11:02 PM
feelings, emotions are important.
think about your life, marriage, career, ... all the important decisions you've made have feelings and emotions involved.

just praying to god does NOT make one christian.
or will save that persons from the fallen state.
one actually become "christian" first, then pray.
"one pray to god to become christian" is total wrong.
like velkin was saying she prayed so hard to god to keep her faith is incorrect.
saved one can pray to god to strengthen his/her faith is more appropriate.

bible says "nothing in the universe will take away god's gift" because it is God's gift.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Brakeman on August 11, 2011, 09:17:57 PM
I don't mean to be critical 3-16,

But in future posts, please flesh out your statements more.
It should be :

Statement - supporting reasoning point 1 - supporting point 2
Statement - supporting reasoning point 1 - supporting point 2

not,

Statement 1 - statement 2 - statement 3 all the time.

Tell us why you support your ideas.

Thanx..
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Brakeman on August 11, 2011, 09:21:03 PM

one actually become "christian" first, then pray.

Really? how do you become a christian before any prayer? I thought you had to ask god to save you? Can you ask god something without talking to him? How?

Can I ask you a question without communicating with you? 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 54East on August 11, 2011, 10:27:50 PM
Wow!  Had no idea things would be so intense on here.  So many posters are really driven to get their point across.  Sometimes I'm not sure what that point is supposed to be--to change my mind or to belittle me.  Conversation can be PEACEFUL as the title of this post says.

So...I tried really hard to figure out the blue box quotes so I can respond but ended up initially with everything, including my comments, in one big blue box.  I tried again and had some very eloquent words penned when -poof- my entire essay disappeared!

I chose to respond to AMBASSADOR PONY so I just copied what she said and my comments (AKA "ME").  I am going to a Women of Faith weekend Friday and Saturday so will not be back on here to read responses.  Hopefully will be back Sunday...

AMBASSADOR PONY: From what I've read, I'd muse that you probably have some deep emotional need for there to be a god. If you did not have that conept in your life, to rely on, things would seem meaningless and cruel. I would not guess that you adopted your god belief because of bad circumstances, but that it is a fundamental crutch keeping you afloat.

ME: Why is it so wrong to have a deep emotional need for something?  Especially a good, positive relationship?  God could be thought of as a crutch because man is crippled.  We don’t do well left to our own devices.  If I am drowning and someone throws me a float, I am not going to push it away and refuse it because I can save myself.  Obviously if I am drowning I cannot save myself and need help.

AMBASSADOR PONY: Do you find it to be a coincidence that the predominant type of belief (christian type) in the time and place you live just so happens to be the one true belief? Do you think your experience with belief is any different than the experience of belief (held with just as much conviction and providing just as much comfort) of people born in other places and times throughout human history?

ME: It is not a coincidence, no.  And yes, I do believe that my God is different than those other gods because the God of the Bible is the one and only true, living God.

AMBASSADOR PONY: Just to probe the nature of your belief further: How old is the earth, and does evolution explain the history of life on the planet well?

ME: As I understand it (and I wasn’t there when it was created, so can’t say for sure), but it appears the Earth is anywhere from 6,000 years to several billion years old, give or take a few years.  And if you mean evolution like every living creature started from one cell, ape is the forerunner of man, etc. then “no”, I don’t believe that.  I believe God created all living things.  Now if you mean evolution as things change to adapt to their environments, “yes”.

AMBASSADOR PONY: Additionally, are you really willing and able objectively to examine your own belief behaviour and to think critically about it? Honestly? My impression, based on very little evidence, is no, you aren't. I'd like to be proven wrong.

ME: I am not looking to become an atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Hare Krishna, or Mormon.  I have already examined my belief system and have thought critically about.  In fact continue to do so even today, though I am secure in my belief in the God of the Bible.  My goal here is to find out what ATHEISTS THINK, what drives their beliefs, and if something happened to take them from a position of believing in God to believing in no God.

NOTE:  I am not a new Christian nor am I a young person.  I have 50 years of living, studying, reading, listening, learning, worshiping, experiencing, and making intelligent decisions.  Just wanted to make sure you all understand that I am not an off-the-cuff kind of woman.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on August 11, 2011, 10:39:56 PM
54 East  Your first intelligent decision was to come here and expose yourself to free thinkers. Nobody makes you stay and I highly doubt you will even win a point when debating here.

 Some of the free thinkers here are ex-theists so they have used the arguements you may try to put forward,and now can rip them to shreds.

 Good-luck BTW what critical thinking could you have possibly done your BABBLE screams SPAG (self projection as God)
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 11, 2011, 11:03:09 PM
Sorry brakeman.
I just didn't want to say too much about Christianity before I hear Velkyn's response.

becoming a christian means accepting god's gift and be saved from god's wrath by FAITH.
only by faith, because "without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Hebrews 11:6)

by believing, one can be righteous before god, no one else is considered righteous without faith of Christ.
not by praying, praying is one of communicating tools between God and man, not a way to become Christian.
only by Christ, through Christ, because"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."(john 14:6)

oh BTW bible verses are my only supporting documents.
I have nothing else.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 11, 2011, 11:09:22 PM
ME: Why is it so wrong to have a deep emotional need for something?  Especially a good, positive relationship?  God could be thought of as a crutch because man is crippled.  We don’t do well left to our own devices.  If I am drowning and someone throws me a float, I am not going to push it away and refuse it because I can save myself.  Obviously if I am drowning I cannot save myself and need help.

Where did I say it was wrong to have a deep emotional need for something? I said I assumed you had such a need, in relation to your beliefs, based on your posts so far, nothing else. I feel it is important to establish, if you behave as though a significant need is as good as evidence. I find that having a discussion with such a person, on certain topics, is a waste, since they do not value intellectual honesty. They value only maintaining an idea they feel they need, regardless of it's evident falsity.

I see it in the manufactured meaning you applied to my statement above about emotional need, and I see it just below in your rejection of evidenced reality in favour of your belief.

AMBASSADOR PONY: Do you find it to be a coincidence that the predominant type of belief (christian type) in the time and place you live just so happens to be the one true belief? Do you think your experience with belief is any different than the experience of belief (held with just as much conviction and providing just as much comfort) of people born in other places and times throughout human history?

ME: It is not a coincidence, no.  And yes, I do believe that my God is different than those other gods because the God of the Bible is the one and only true, living God.

I bolded the part you did not answer. Could you answer that?

ME: As I understand it (and I wasn’t there when it was created, so can’t say for sure), but it appears the Earth is anywhere from 6,000 years to several billion years old, give or take a few years.  And if you mean evolution like every living creature started from one cell, ape is the forerunner of man, etc. then “no”, I don’t believe that.  I believe God created all living things.  Now if you mean evolution as things change to adapt to their environments, “yes”.

Is this based on an understanding of the science, proper study, and expertise, or an emotional need for it not to be true, and subsequent search for all material validating that choice? Honestly, please.

AMBASSADOR PONY: Additionally, are you really willing and able objectively to examine your own belief behaviour and to think critically about it? Honestly? My impression, based on very little evidence, is no, you aren't. I'd like to be proven wrong.

ME: I am not looking to become an atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Hare Krishna, or Mormon.  I have already examined my belief system and have thought critically about.  In fact continue to do so even today, though I am secure in my belief in the God of the Bible.  My goal here is to find out what ATHEISTS THINK, what drives their beliefs, and if something happened to take them from a position of believing in God to believing in no God.

I would think that a clever person would be looking for an accurate portrait of reality, regardless of what she wants or needs it to be. That's one thing you can note has moved people to a lack of belief in the existence of deities.

I am completely open to questions, East54, and I will answer honestly. I don't have any other questions for you.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on August 12, 2011, 02:24:39 AM
In a christina point of view it's a mistery.
my honest answer "I don't know"
answers I got in this forum "because there is no objective evidence"

John, do you think that Hindus feel the same way about atheists?  Do you think that Hindus feel the same way about Christians?  Do you feel the same way about Hindus?

Quite naturally (both because you believe in Christ, and because you were raised and live in a society where Christianity is the majority faith) you find it hard to understand why someone can just "not believe".  And similarly, the Indian of devout belief, raised in a country where Hinduism is the majority faith, likewise has no idea why the Indian atheist simply "does not believe".

Now imagine that you live in a country where there is no single majority faith - where, let's say, there are millions of Hindus, millions of Christians, millions of every faith under the sun.  And where every religion is - essentially - simply saying "have faith".  In other words, consider yourself in the shoes of the educated atheist who has examined numerous faiths, rather than (as you seem to be assuming) that atheists are simply rejecting YOUR god.

It's why the "objective evidence" answer crops up so often.  Because without it, there IS no way of choosing between your faith, and the faith of that guy over there, or that guy over there.

To repeat Hal's question:

Is the lack of "objective evidence" a good reason to disbelieve in Christianity?

If not, why not?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on August 12, 2011, 02:32:50 AM
Now if you mean evolution as things change to adapt to their environments, “yes”.

Interesting.  Presumably then you must believe that there are limits to how far a particular type of creature CAN change to adapt?  That while a creature can change a little in one direction, there is a point at which no further adaptation can take place?

Where would you envisage these limits to be?  How would you envisage these limits came in to being?

To take a specific: do you accept that all breeds of dog today evolved from an original wolf-like creature?  If we took a breed like a Great Dane, and selectively bred for height and strength, do you think we could one day end up with a creature that would very closely resemble a horse?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on August 12, 2011, 06:10:27 AM
BTW bible verses are my only supporting documents.

Bible verses are not supporting documents.  Bible verses are claims that require supporting documents.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on August 12, 2011, 06:24:03 AM
Atheists are atheist because they don't want to believe, not because they want to sin.

John, you do not find out who people are by telling them who they are.  You find out by asking them who they are.

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try saying "I can commit any sin I want to" after you truly received the holy spirit and forgiven.

I had a roommate who said exactly that.  And if you tried to tell him he was a "false Christian", he'd be furious; I saw some other Christians try to tell him that and witnessed his reaction myself.  (Although he would have no problem telling certain other Christians, such as unitarians, that they were "false Christians".)

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I can easly spot false christians this way.

And I can easily spot false Scotsmen (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman"), too.  They're the ones who put sugar on their porridge.

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the one mis-understood god's gift would say something like that, but if you look into the bible little deeper, that's not true.

And my ex-roommate, conversely, would say that you are the one who needs to look into the bible a little deeper.  Skeptics are not going to privilege your opinion over his, or vice versa.  They're just going to lump all of you in together and say that Christians can't agree on what their book says.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 12, 2011, 10:28:37 AM
Velkyn.
I am not going to judge whether you were true or false Christian, because I don't even know you. Only God knows.
No, God doesn’t since God is imaginary.  I do challenge you to prove it exists.  I have no time for vague claims. 

I did notice that you didn’t bother with answering my two questions in my post.  It doesn’t surprise me but I’ll give you another chance: And getting back to those prayers, I prayed a lot to keep my faith.  And I got nothing.  Not a peep from this god.  No revelation like Thomas, nothing. If this god is all Christians say, that it wants all people to beleive in it, to worship it, that it Loves everyone, why would this happen?

and

But it seemed much more likely that this god didn’t exist just as Odin or Zeus or Amon-Re didn’t exist. There was no evidence for them so why think that any of these nonsensical claims were true, even if they were from people I trusted?

I’ll satisfy your curiosity.  However, I’m guessing you are simply fishing for what you “pray” to be an answer you want and thus will declare if I was a TrueChristian or not. That’s what all of the questions point to, all what I’ve seen you declare as what a TrueChristian is. I’ve satisfied other Christians in their curiosity about me and my opinions, and not to surprisingly, they run away when they don’t get the answers they want. I’ll answer yours and then I want you to answer your own questions. Then we can see your version of Christianity.   

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1)what did you think the whole bible was telling you when you were "believing"?
that God sent JC down to save us from sin.  One must accept JC as savior to be saved.
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2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
He didn’t die, that’s the problem.  I had no caring about a god that sacrificed itself to itself.  I found no sadness in this at all since there was no true loss. It seemed that it simply had to be done that way, like any magic spell. When I was losing my faith, I wondered about the point of this and the fairness of it.  However, since he really didn’t die, something that even me as a child could understand, it didn’t bother me.   
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3)what did you think the purpose of existence of bible
To spread a religion through the retelling of events of supposedly real people and to serve as a guide to what God wants us to do. 
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4)The bible says "going to church, serving communion, teaching bible, praying really hard" does not make one "Christian"   then what would you say to that?
  Ah, there we go, the judgement that you so desperately wanted to make.  Unfortuantely for you, that is not the case.  The bible says that one must believe in God and Jesus.  I did, and I did all of those other things because of that.  The bible says that various things make one a Christian.  Those verses that your handle comes from.  Then we have that works count, and then that they don’t, that the only thing that makes a Christians is God’s whim, his “grace” given to only those he wants to give it too, no matter what belief or what actions people take.  You might want to discuss your version of Christianity with ddavis who is certain that there is only predestination.  In that your god is fond of competitions, we should have a who is the TrueChristian with the competing altars like God supposedly did once before.

oh and this is nonsense:
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Atheists are atheist because they don't want to believe, not because they want to sin.
No this isn’t true at all.  I don’t believe anymore since there is no reason to believe.  Your god is as imaginary as all of the others.  You make up your own religion to match your personal beliefs.  I do find it amusing when you claim now that you can “spot false Christians” when you so piously said before that “only god knows”.  What a hypocrite.  I’ll ask you, John, why you “just don’t believe” in Allah, Tezcatlipoca, Amon-Ra, etc?   

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like velkin was saying she prayed so hard to god to keep her faith is incorrect.
saved one can pray to god to strengthen his/her faith is more appropriate.
Yep, that’s exactly how I prayed.  Please God, help me keep my faith.  Means the same as “strengthen” in this context.  I was “losing” my faith, I still had it but it was diminishing.  Nice try though, attempting to use the good ol’ “you weren’t doing it right” excuse common to so many Christians. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 12, 2011, 10:39:18 AM
Wow!  Had no idea things would be so intense on here.  So many posters are really driven to get their point across.  Sometimes I'm not sure what that point is supposed to be--to change my mind or to belittle me.  Conversation can be PEACEFUL as the title of this post says.
Conversations can be peaceful.  However, you make baseless claims and we counter them.  I find this peaceful but not allowing you to spread nonsense. 

I’d love for you to demonstrate that your god is any different from those other gods. It’s nice to make a claim but then you need to back it up.  It’s like when Christians come here and prate that one just needs to look around at the universe and “see” their particular god did it. I’d love to see you show how that’s true. 

You demonstrate again that you are willfully ignorant.  No, the world is not anywhere near 6000 years old. That is pure ignorance.  There is more than enough evidence to demonstrate that this is patently untrue. The same science that you enjoy everyday is the same that supports the BBT, evolutionary theory, etc.  I’m guessing that like so many hypocritical Christians, you disbelieve scientific discoveries only when they show your myths to be wrong. 

You claim to have thought critically about your religion but from just the bit about the age of the earth, it shows you are amazingly unaware of reality and have not thought about much at all. 

I’m 45 so whoop de do.  Age makes no difference in how coherent someone thinks.  This particular atheist thinks that religion is based on myths, not facts. There is not one shred of evidence for your myths or your god.  It causes much more harm than it has ever helped.  It creates a delusion that some people are better than others based on an invisible friend. 

I’ll ask you a question, 54East. What would it take *you* to disbelieve in your god/the supernatural?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 12, 2011, 10:46:34 AM
Velkyn,
With my questions, I just wanted to see how you were doing when you were a believer.
I am sorry to say this but you were not a believer. period!

why?, try looking at your answer "He didn't die" how is it even possible to say when you were believing.

therefore, you were not a believer, in the eyes of God, in the eyes of me, in the eyes of any atheists and theists.

That answers your question Velkyn, you weren't believing, therefore no prayers were answered.
BTW you don't pray to God to keep your faith, faith doesn't come from praying without faith, it comes from believing.
Believing Christ, Believing Christ died for us to save us.
That's why your magic spell to the air didn't get any response.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on August 12, 2011, 10:48:02 AM
BTW you don't pray to God to keep your faith, faith doesn't come from praying without faith, it comes from believing.

So believing comes from believing, but you have to believe in order to get evidence to believe?
You don't see any problem with that logic at all?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 12, 2011, 11:13:48 AM
Velkyn,
With my questions, I just wanted to see how you were doing when you were a believer.
I am sorry to say this but you were not a believer. period!
Nice.  Of course you don’t think so, because of your desperate belief that no one can reject your god.  Well, sorry to tell you, I can and I did and I was a Christian.  So much for your claims of not judging. :D  Funny how I knew you would show yourself to be a liar as soon as you started asking questions since you were trying to define just what I was so you could judge it.
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why?, try looking at your answer "He didn't die" how is it even possible to say when you were believing.
So, show me where your JC died.  Death is permanent.  Resurrection negates it.  There was no loss.  Let’s look at exactly what I did say, not your attempt to expurgate it for your own purposes
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2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?

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He didn’t die, that’s the problem.  I had no caring about a god that sacrificed itself to itself.  I found no sadness in this at all since there was no true loss. It seemed that it simply had to be done that way, like any magic spell. When I was losing my faith, I wondered about the point of this and the fairness of it.  However, since he really didn’t die, something that even me as a child could understand, it didn’t bother me.
I had been told the story but even a child knows that death is permanent and this wasn’t death. I had seen plenty of people and animals be dead and what JC did wasn’t that.  Christians often prate on how guilty they feel or how happy they feel that someone died for them.  Why should I feel guilty when this is what God wanted and required?  Why should I feel happy that someone was killed horribly for me?  As I stated, it was what God wanted and that was it. I didn’t ask for it but I was led to believe it was true so I *accepted* it with no problem. Do you feel either guilty or happy if you ask yourself the same questions?  Why?   
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therefore, you were not a believer, in the eyes of God, in the eyes of me, in the eyes of any atheists and theists.
awww, and where did the “only god knows” go, John?  I see someone judging  &) and being such a pathetic hypocrite.  Sorry, as long as I had accepted JC as my savior, that’s all that’s needed, right?  JC was all about that in John 3. Believe in me, and that’s it. No mention of death at all. You decided to add other things to create your own version of a TrueChristian.  That’s quite typical, John.  Thanks for demonstrating that again.
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That answers your question Velkyn, you weren't believing, therefore no prayers were answered.
Thomas questioned too, John.  His faith was weak, so was mine.  So where was the help and please do tell me the difference. I did believe since I spent the time praying, John.  Please do explain why I would pray to something I didn’t believe in. 
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BTW you don't pray to God to keep your faith, faith doesn't come from praying without faith, it comes from believing.
Oh my.  So, John, where does believing come from?  I do expect an answer to at least this.  You do have a tendency to ignore questions from anyone else.  Not very honest of you at all.
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Believing Christ, Believing Christ died for us to save us.That's why your magic spell to the air didn't get any response.
No, my prayers failed since there is no god.  Supposedly your god wants everyone to accept him right?  If so, even if I didn’t believe in the “right” way, I should still have gotten a response *if* this being existed and *if* this being actually cared for everyone to believe in it.  So, what was the problem here, John?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 12, 2011, 11:21:03 AM
becoming a christian means accepting god's gift and be saved from god's wrath by FAITH.
only by faith, because "without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Hebrews 11:6)

:snickers:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

John, your christianity is a strictly evangelical interpretation, which other christians reject.  You don't possess the authority or ability to dictate solely what is required to become a christian anymore then they do.  Why would I believe a christian of a different denominational from your own? Why would I believe you?

I have no reason to believe either, because there is no reason to invoke any of it as true, beyond ones own random emotional dependency upon believing it.  This is one of those problems with any religious belief, there is no intellectual structure to assign belief based on its relevance or contingent understandable points.  The game of theology is one built on arbitrary selection of what one has presupposed as conditional for that belief system.  Why would I or anyone else ever take such a dogmatically irrational system of belief seriously?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on August 12, 2011, 11:45:17 AM
becoming a christian means accepting god's gift and be saved from god's wrath by FAITH.
only by faith, because "without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Hebrews 11:6)

:snickers:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

John, your christianity is a strictly evangelical interpretation, which other christians reject.  You don't possess the authority or ability to dictate solely what is required to become a christian anymore then they do.  Why would I believe a christian of a different denominational from your own? Why would I believe you?

I have no reason to believe either, because there is no reason to invoke any of it as true, beyond ones own random emotional dependency upon believing it.  This is one of those problems with any religious belief, there is no intellectual structure to assign belief based on its relevance or contingent understandable points.  The game of theology is one built on arbitrary selection of what one has presupposed as conditional for that belief system.  Why would I or anyone else ever take such a dogmatically irrational system of belief seriously?


Oh the answer to that one is simple: Becasue it is THEIR dogmatically irrational beleif system.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 12, 2011, 11:46:48 AM
Omen.

If there is a person claimming he is a christian, but he doesn't believe the message in the bible (Example Christ died for ours sins)
Should I call him a christian?

James was simply pointing out that, if one has true faith, his deeds will show outwardly,
if faith is an object, deed is like a shadow of faith, it follows an object, shadows only exist when there is an object, right?

So if no shadow, then no obejct.

Do you know how many people claims they believe, but when I ask them questions about God's salvation plan they either have no idea or don't believe.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 12, 2011, 11:50:12 AM
Omen.

If there is a person claimming he is a christian, but he doesn't believe the message


What message that you can convey in terms to be understood as the only one?

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James was simply..

This is your rationalization, a different christian has a different interpretation from your own.  I addressed this and specifically asked a series of questions:

Why would I believe a christian of a different denominational from your own? Why would I believe you?

Why would I or anyone else ever take such a dogmatically irrational system of belief seriously?

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Do you know how many people claims they believe, but when I ask them questions about God's salvation plan they either have no idea or don't believe.

You don't actually possess the authority or informative context to claim that they do or do not.  Your claim can't be acknowledged as true, because you can't demonstrably defend your own arbitrary rationalization.. much less insinuate that someone elses is wrong by default.  That is plainly dishonest and arrogant of you.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 12, 2011, 11:50:51 AM
John, you are your god.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on August 12, 2011, 11:54:55 AM
Omen.

If there is a person claimming he is a christian, but he doesn't believe the message in the bible (Example Christ died for ours sins)
Should I call him a christian?

James was simply pointing out that, if one has true faith, his deeds will show outwardly,
if faith is an object, deed is like a shadow of faith, it follows an object, shadows only exist when there is an object, right?

So if no shadow, then no obejct.

Do you know how many people claims they believe, but when I ask them questions about God's salvation plan they either have no idea or don't believe.

You definition of 'Christian' is narrower than "Christ died for our Sins," is it not? Yes or No.

 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 12, 2011, 12:27:07 PM
My goal here is to find out what ATHEISTS THINK, what drives their beliefs, and if something happened to take them from a position of believing in God to believing in no God.

Most of us are former believers, some were always atheist, some even have formal theological education.  I used to believe, having grown up being indoctrinated into a religious thinking, and it is precisely the kind of rationale you used in your apologia in this thread that eventually lead me to becoming an atheist.  That is, watching christians try to justify belief in christainity using absurdly irrational or contradictory arguments, often for nothing more than a minute rationalization that is only applicable at the time it was randomly made up.  I couldn't suspend my intellect to consider most of those arguments as reasonable or even honest.

Your attempt in this thread is a fantastic example, its delivered upon a set of vague premises regarding your belief, evoking randomly pleaded qualifications as if they were known or arguably understood.  All for the express purpose of justifying your own perception from within the belief system, but are really meaningless to anyone not indoctrinated into it.  It is immediately apparent where you suspend your rationality in such a way that I can't take a statement like this seriously:

Quote
I have already examined my belief system and have thought critically about.

I realized, after watching christians do exactly what you did in this thread, that I did it as well.  I frequently rationalized based on emotionally dependent beliefs, never actually bothering to reason through those beliefs to their inevitable logical conclusions.  I was never actually 'critically' thinking about it anymore then you exhibited in this thread or our crazy little friend John here.  At some point, once being removed from the platitudes and rhetoric of belief, it becomes meaningless.  The irony is that christians proselytize not based on reasoned evidence based arguments, but instead treat others who do not believe as if they were already constituent believers within the fold of understanding.

John is a fantastic example, where as it was pointed out that other christians reach contradictory or differing interpretations of religious belief from his own, and they possess no more reasoning or authority to deem their own beliefs self evident or to be understood as true then Johns.  Yet, john can't bring himself to acknowledge that, John ignored that immediate problem and simply reworded his rhetoric to again presuppose his own authoritative position delivered as an argument from authority.

I see no difference between you, John, or Fred Phelps.  All of you have arrived to your specific religious positions based on the same lack of reasoning and arbitrary rationale.  Atheism isn't a counter position to theism, it is instead the literal discarding of a way of thinking associated with religious belief.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Morgan on August 12, 2011, 01:00:30 PM
Quote
@54East
As a theist in the medical field, what is your stance on NDEs and the religious nature of a percentage?
I do want a satisfactory response to this. Of course, at your leisure, 54.

Quote
God could be thought of as a crutch because man is crippled.  We don’t do well left to our own devices.  If I am drowning and someone throws me a float, I am not going to push it away and refuse it because I can save myself.  Obviously if I am drowning I cannot save myself and need help.
No, we don't do well, that's why we have society with people who can help us, with or without a payment. Modern psychology is a neat alternative to religion, since it costs less time, money and other resources, nor does it preach homophobia, sexism, bigotry and many others hidden under a pretty veil of love and tolerance. As the old internet saying goes, "I'd rather trust the guys in lab coats who don't make me wake up every sunday morning to apologize for being human".

Quote
And yes, I do believe that my God is different than those other gods because the God of the Bible is the one and only true, living God.
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2573/1279554199842.jpg)


Quote
If there is a person claimming he is a christian, but he doesn't believe the message in the bible (Example Christ died for ours sins)
Should I call him a christian?
What makes you think your interpretation is the true one? Nowadays, everyone has their own decoder ring which comes complete with an ego boost that makes them think their version is The One(TM).
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: John 3 16 on August 12, 2011, 01:26:31 PM
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM


there is no god because there is no objective evidence

ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

no, there are certain things we don't know yet

then why do you disbelieve God?

because there is no objective evidence

Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on August 12, 2011, 01:30:50 PM
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM
<snip>

I see no circle. I see requests for evidence and dismissing claims that have no such evidence.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 12, 2011, 01:31:50 PM
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM
there is no god because there is no objective evidence

Strawman.

There is no biblical god, because there is no evidence of the biblical god and all evidence contradicts the claims of the biblical god.  You're preferred cultural superstition is not the only one, nor self evident for anyone else besides you.  There is no such thing as a self evident label of 'god', to mean something in a shared extent between individuals objectively.   As a label it is meaningless and inseparable from its non-existence.

When I say your god doesn't exist, I'm talking about a specific defined context for your god.

Quote
ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

no, there are certain things we don't know yet

Strawman.

I do not 'believe' things without evidence.  My answer is obviously yes and obviously something could exist and we do not know about it.

Quote
because there is no objective evidence

Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?

Done, that was incredibly easy.

Can you answer these questions you've ignored:

This is your rationalization, a different christian has a different interpretation from your own.  I addressed this and specifically asked a series of questions:

Why would I believe a christian of a different denominational from your own? Why would I believe you?

Why would I or anyone else ever take such a dogmatically irrational system of belief seriously?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on August 12, 2011, 01:33:14 PM
John 3:16, that's not really a circle, even if one were to grant its assumptions.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Omen on August 12, 2011, 01:35:42 PM
John 3:16, that's not really a circle, even if one were to grant its assumptions.

Notice the irony, its not to acknowledge that theism is based on circular premises, its to accuse the other position of the same.  Is this his tacit admission that he knows exactly how irrational and circular it is?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: velkyn on August 12, 2011, 01:37:33 PM
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM
there is no god because there is no objective evidence
ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?
Essentially yes.  I do not believe in leprechauns, or devas, or magical coyotes, etc.  Do you?  Why or why not?
Quote
no, there are certain things we don't know yet
then why do you disbelieve God?
Because it’s had millennia to demonstrate it exists.  Because believers claim its existence and not come up with a scrap of evidence themselves.  How long should one look for evidence for something, John?  I have prayed for it to reveal itself to me just like Thomas who doubted, when I doubted.  Again, no evidence.  Let me ask you, why do you disbelieve in Vishnu?  Why do you not admit that mighty Sekhmet, eye of Ra, lady of healing, is real? 
Quote
because there is no objective evidence
Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?

Oh you mean the above strawman nonsense? Of course. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Azdgari on August 12, 2011, 01:38:08 PM
Notice the irony, its not to acknowledge that theism is based on circular premises, its to accuse the other position of the same.  Is this his tacit admission that he knows exactly how irrational and circular it is?

I think so.  The honest thing at this point would be for him to actively defend circular reasoning as a valid thing to do, since that is clearly his position.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Morgan on August 12, 2011, 02:02:22 PM
Was the "circle of atheism"...thing a response to the image I posted? If yes, then I rank it just a little above Bad Troll. If you really want to respond to it, it's probably best not to use more strawmen than a whole corn field.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on August 12, 2011, 02:25:39 PM
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM


there is no god because there is no objective evidence

ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

no, there are certain things we don't know yet

then why do you disbelieve God?

because there is no objective evidence

Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?

That is being an Atheist and an Agnostic. Sometimes called "weak Atheism." It is a fully logical position. There is no circle to break as Theism or Atheism is about belief, Gnosticism or Agnoticism is about Knowledge. I fully accept the possiblity of a god, however whenever someone attempt to define them, it is readily apparent that their assertations are baseless and without objective evidence. The define out of appeals to tradition and out of self projection, not through falsifiable claims. This is very similar to all claims about the supernatural, and the deities of other religions, and the claims of people who later admit to being charletans.

I reject the Judeo-Christian model of god for the same reason I reject the Grecko-Roman model of gods, they have no evidence AND make claims that conflict with the way the world appears to work.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on August 12, 2011, 02:35:01 PM
Still waiting John

Your definition of 'Christian' is narrower than "Christ died for our Sins?"  Yes or No.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on August 12, 2011, 02:37:37 PM
John 3:16, that's not really a circle, even if one were to grant its assumptions.

Notice the irony, its not to acknowledge that theism is based on circular premises, its to accuse the other position of the same.  Is this his tacit admission that he knows exactly how irrational and circular it is?

It is actually a fallacy, Tu Quoque. Use of fallacies are always an admission of a flaw in reasoning.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jtp56 on August 12, 2011, 04:55:49 PM
I'm breaking the thread here, but, I want to answer the basic question of "Why won't God heal amputees?"  The answer is: we can't know.  Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town.  When mocked during his crucifixion: "If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself, and one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."  Jesus Himself did not answer them.  How can we today answer you?

The malefactors is a great illustration of the two types of people in the world.  Those who scream "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us" or "Why won't God heal amputees?"  and those who say unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" whom Jesus did answer: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." 

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on August 12, 2011, 05:12:57 PM
Failing to think critically is good.

riiiiight. 
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on August 12, 2011, 05:40:00 PM
I'm breaking the thread here, but, I want to answer the basic question of "Why won't God heal amputees?"  The answer is: we can't know.  Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town.  When mocked during his crucifixion: "If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself, and one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."  Jesus Himself did not answer them.  How can we today answer you?

One possible answer is that God isn't real.  Right?  That would explain why God doesn't heal amputees.  It would also explain why prayer doesn't work.  And why you can't find any hard evidence for God.  It explains everything pretty well.   

The malefactors is a great illustration of the two types of people in the world.  Those who scream "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us" or "Why won't God heal amputees?"  and those who say unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" whom Jesus did answer: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

You say this almost as if you are proud to be in the second group lol. 

The difference is between those who look for evidence for their beliefs, and those who will believe anything they're told.   
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on August 13, 2011, 01:00:13 AM
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM
there is no god because there is no objective evidence
ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

no, there are certain things we don't know yet
then why do you disbelieve God?

because there is no objective evidence

Perhaps if you could suggest something I believe in (as opposed to provisionally accepting for convenience) then your assmptions MIGHT work.  But the point you are STILL failing to grasp is that your god is not the only one being offered.

As Hal and I have been ashing for a couple days now:

It's why the "objective evidence" answer crops up so often.  Because without it, there IS no way of choosing between your faith, and the faith of that guy over there, or that guy over there.

To repeat Hal's question:
Is the lack of "objective evidence" a good reason to disbelieve in Christianity?
If not, why not?

When there is NO objective evidence for any particular god - and there are two (hundred thousand) competing, contradictory, and mutually exclusive claims that THIS god is the one......for what reason should the unbeliever choose YOUR particular god?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on August 13, 2011, 01:18:05 AM
Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town.

JTP, I don't think "Jesus" actually healed anybody. I'm about 99.999...% sure that the Jesus described in the Bible is heavily fictionalized, although perhaps the character was based on one or more real people of that era.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on August 13, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM

there is no god because there is no objective evidence

John, that's only circular reasoning if you're talking about "strong" (gnostic) atheism.  Most of us here are "weak" (agnostic) atheists, and I would word your phrase as:

I see no objective evidence, so I have no compelling reason to believe.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: jtp56 on August 13, 2011, 09:07:00 AM
In response to JeffTP "One possible answer is that God isn't real.  Right?"

Maybe dark matter isn't real, right?

Or I can believe scientists who finally, finally, finally, have got if figured out after all the changes in their"facts" and theories and the evidence (generally ignored) contradicting an old earth.  Secular views of origins is always changing.  I don't think it's even fair to say "most scientists agree" any more; because there are so many theories or as if physical laws and facts were established by some kind of poll.  You won't consider intelligent design simply because in your intelligent minds it can't be, that's not critical thinking.

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   

Whats convenient for people who keep telling us their critical thinkers and so smart.  Your origins theories are what ever they need to be. Similar to the charges you level against Christians.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on August 13, 2011, 09:18:14 AM
<snip>

The Poe is strong in this one...
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: JeffPT on August 13, 2011, 12:00:48 PM
You didn't answer the question.  Let me try again.  Do be so kind as to answer it truthfully... Go ahead, it won't hurt you.  It might even feel good to tell the truth.  Try it out. 

If God isn't real, would that explain why God doesn't heal amputees? 

Maybe dark matter isn't real, right?

Yes.  That's possible.

Or I can believe scientists who finally, finally, finally, have got if figured out after all the changes in their"facts" and theories and the evidence (generally ignored) contradicting an old earth. 

Facts don't change.  Theories change when new facts are presented that undermine the theories.  Do you understand what a scientific theory is in contrast to what a fact is? 

Secular views of origins is always changing.

As new facts arise, rightfully so.  If you form the opinion that your neighbor stole your car, and one day you see your brother driving it down the street, that is a new fact that changes your original theory that your neighbor stole your car.  That's how science works.  New information must be incorporated.  The theories that are the most well supported by all the facts are the ones that survive through time.  It is not a weakness as you seem to think it is.  It is a strength.  It would be foolish to stick with a theory that no longer explains how all the facts fit together. 

I don't think it's even fair to say "most scientists agree" any more; because there are so many theories or as if physical laws and facts were established by some kind of poll. 

You really don't understand science much, do you? 

You won't consider intelligent design simply because in your intelligent minds it can't be, that's not critical thinking.

Bullshit.  I will consider intelligent design when I see evidence for it that seems stronger than the evidence that it is not intelligently designed.  Just as I will consider dark matter when we have evidence for it; which there now seems to be.  Just like I will consider an old earth when there is evidence for it, which we have a TON of.  There is no evidence for a young earth.  That's completely retarded.

I have nothing against the notion that the universe was created by god.  It's not a personal thing.  There is just no reason to believe it was, so I reject it.  Just like I reject the notion that the sun revolves around the earth.  That could be true, but there is no reason anymore to believe it does.  That's the thing with you Christians.  You think we have something personal against the possibility of god.  It's completely wrong.  I don't care if there is a god or not.  I just want to know if there is.  And if there is no reason to believe there is, then I'm going to reject it.  So I reject it. 

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer. 

What? 

Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   

More idiocy.  We don't know how DNA got it's start yet.  But make no mistake... once it got it's start, it evolved. And it continues to evolve.  That isn't in dispute anymore.  But to say it could ONLY come from the CHRISTIAN God who makes absolutely no claim to this at all in the bible is beyond stupid.  You do realize, jtp, that just because we don't fully know how DNA got it's start, that doesn't mean you can throw in the Christian God as if there are no other alternatives, right?  You Christians never seem to get this one.  Just because we don't know yet, doesn't mean you get to declare victory.  You still haven't proven that it came from your God yet.  You may ask for evidence of where DNA came from, and I can say "It started by natural processes", and I can ask you the same thing, and you can say "It started through God", but this moves us nowhere because neither of us can fully PROVE our stance yet.  Unfortunately for you, however, scientists are getting closer by the day to figuring it out, while you and your religious cohorts bury your fingers in your ears and say LA LA LA LA I'm not listening to you LA LA LA LA. 

Where in the bible does it say "God set forth DNA upon the world?  Please show it.  I'd like to see that passage.  Better yet, forget the bible.  I don't believe a word of it anyway.   Where is your real world evidence that God started DNA?  This I'd like to see.  And when you realize you don't have it, at least have the guts to admit it.  I have the guts to tell you that I don't know how DNA got it's start.  But to assume it could ONLY have come from a supernatural source is beyond stupid.  It's a process that we don't know yet. 

Tell you what though... if science looks deep into the origins of DNA, and at the very heart of all strands of DNA, they find a "God code", which they openly say could only be explained by the work of the Christian God, then I will be forced to admit you are right.  Would you do the same when science discovers how DNA began through natural sources?  I doubt it.  They are getting closer every day. 

I'm sorry you believe that Jesus is who he said he is.  This is the year 2011.  Jesus is a fairy tale.  Grow up. 

Whats convenient for people who keep telling us their critical thinkers and so smart.  Your origins theories are what ever they need to be. Similar to the charges you level against Christians.

Our origin theories are based on evidence and research.  They change as new evidence dictates they should change.  Your origin theories come from an old book that (roughly translated) says "poof, Goddidit".  I'm going with the first one.  It seems to work REALLY well for everything else in the world, whereas your book has failed for centuries. 

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on August 13, 2011, 01:46:22 PM
Seems pretty clear to me from this discussion: you can reason your way out of religion, but you can't reason your way into it. Religion has no lab section.

That is what I figured out after a childhood spent in a strict fundamentalist JW home. We were taught the questions and the answers by rote memory: "Did man get here by evolution or by creation--creation." The JW literature even comes complete with the questions and printed answers for easy memorization.

When I asked how we knew that creation was the right answer, I was referred back to the bible and the JW literature. When I asked how we knew all that stuff was true, I was told it was true because it comes from god. When I asked how we knew it came from god, they said, well because it says so in the bible. More questions meant I got funny looks (or angry looks) and knew I was in trouble, so I shut up.

With religion you have to, sooner or later, shut the eff up and just believe. They can't actually show you that it is true. They can't do lecture-demonstration. There is no demonstration, only the lecture part. There is no lab where they show you how what they are saying is true.

If prayer, for example, really worked, every church would have a prayer lab where they could show you how god works his miracles through the right kinds of prayer, and where they could show you how to do it correctly. You would know you were doing it right because the prayer would be answered. There would be proof. Miracles galore. As it is now, religious people can only tell you after the fact that you did not pray the right way because your prayer was not answered, or that maybe god did not want to answer it. And no miracles. Ever.
 
If the prayer (non-miracle type only-- no amputees need apply) was answered, then of course you were praying the right way that time, or god decided to answer it, that time. No guarantees for next time, though.  (They prayed for rain in Texas, right? I guess out of all those millions of people, not one was praying right. Or god wants Texas to burn.)

Can you imagine if science worked that way, that your car or computer or antibiotic only worked as randomly as religion supposedly does and miracles happened all the time? If one day germs caused the flu and the next day it was a curse from the woman next door that caused the flu, and the next day the flu does not exist anymore. One day your microwave cooks the food and the next day it flies around the room. One day you open your fridge and a live baby elephant pops out and then the fruit juice explodes and burns down your house.[1]

Once you start using reason, you can't be uncritically religious anymore. You start asking real questions and don't accept the pat knee-jerk answers anymore. And when the answers don't cut it, you realize that "there is no there there".

That is why reason and logic and science are so threatening to [some] religious people. You just can't have random people running around questioning things and demanding real world answers. They might realize that the drought in Texas has a scientific explanation that has nothing to do with god. And if they realize that, they might actually apply science and solve the problem. Just like people have used science to solve a lot of other problems, without needing prayer or god. And where would god be then? :?
 1. Actually it would not even be that exciting. The microwave would not work. Ever. And then one day it would explode and kill everyone. There is no way in hell we would depend on science for anything if it worked as well as religion!
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on August 13, 2011, 08:21:48 PM
In response to JeffTP "One possible answer is that God isn't real.  Right?"

Maybe dark matter isn't real, right?

Or I can believe scientists who finally, finally, finally, have got if figured out after all the changes in their"facts" and theories and the evidence (generally ignored) contradicting an old earth.  Secular views of origins is always changing.  I don't think it's even fair to say "most scientists agree" any more; because there are so many theories or as if physical laws and facts were established by some kind of poll.  You won't consider intelligent design simply because in your intelligent minds it can't be, that's not critical thinking.

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   

Whats convenient for people who keep telling us their critical thinkers and so smart.  Your origins theories are what ever they need to be. Similar to the charges you level against Christians.
How is it you dismiss other Gods that people in modern society still believe in? they all have the same evidence ZERO
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Astreja on August 14, 2011, 02:05:30 AM
The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?

I think you've got it backwards, JTP.  There is an illusion of "information" in DNA because certain sequences of nucleotides create fairly consistent results.  (I say "fairly" consistent because there is a probabilistic mechanism that can result in either trait expression or trait suppression, depending on the chemical environment.)

We -- Humans and other living entities on this planet -- appear to be the "creation" of mindless chemical processes.  There is no inherent value in having two arms, two legs, one nose, five digits on each hand, and so on; that's just the way we happened to turn out after many, many years of evolution.  If we had 2 heads, 3 stomachs and had the ability to see microwave radiation and hear the colour red, it would be equally valid.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Emily on August 14, 2011, 12:47:34 PM

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   


If this god is some all-powerful computer programmer he has done a shitty job of programming. It's like here we are, god works for Microsoft, and we get the blue screen of death. Pow! We're fucked and need to reboot. Possibly installing some updates with fix the problem. Maybe not. Who knows, but it's worth a shot. Here's this computer program, written with the aid of some compiler to translate it into machine language, that has come from probably C++. which is a variation of C, or evolved from C if you will. Now we have C# which evolved from C++. Computers typically use binary, though Base-10 is also a possibility. Both of which use mathematical expressions and algorithms in their computations to execute a computer programs, and both of which are a part of nature and not the creation of some god-like being, but the results that were seen and observed and some brainy geek wondered how he/she could harness what he/she saw and use it and change it into something useful for us to browse the web and head over to WWGHA.

Information does come from "nothing" when you think of information in the mathematical sense - and that's what a computer program is when it all boils down. No one sat down and said 2+2 MUST equal 4. It's just natural to say that when you add two things to two things you have a group of four things. It's just natural to think that, and that will never change. Information processing does change. We have 64 BIT processors which out preforms 32 bit processors, and we have IPv6 which out preforms IPv4, (both of which have evolved from their previous state) but at the end it all breaks down into computer language anyways. The technology has changed but only because it has evolved to become something better than it once was. But this is all the work of a group of men and woman, and their change doesn't come without the help of some natural processes - or mathematics, if you will.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Graybeard on August 14, 2011, 02:20:40 PM

ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?
I may be able to if you give an example of something an atheist might believe in for which there is no objective evidence.

Could you do that please?
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: One Above All on August 14, 2011, 03:04:41 PM
I may be able to if you give an example of something an atheist might believe in for which there is no objective evidence.

Could you do that please?

Expect something related to emotions.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: 54East on August 14, 2011, 03:43:48 PM
Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

I am having so much trouble responding to the posts because I can't seem to get the hang of copying a portion of a post and responding. :-\

Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum?  Or is it the forum's anonymity that makes it easy to belittle others?  Maybe it is just because we cannot communicate our tone of voice very effectively through computer text?  Or maybe it is people who are weak in their personal lives but OH MY they can be outspoken on the internet?  Or possibly ALL forums are full of vocal people wanting to make themselves heard, and I have just not been on forums much?

Not all Christians are like the few vocal (can I say extremists) that are on the news.  We don't believe in bombing abortion clinics or protesting outside the church service of a soldier killed at war.  Jesus did not even address homosexuality.  He was a friend to all including women, children, prostitutes, thieves, liars.  Most Christians I know are not extremists or even very vocal about their faith.  They believe in God and His Son Jesus the Christ.  They believe in Heaven and hell.  In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness.  Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets.  Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

I have to agree with the concept that "proof" in science changes.  New evidence?  That did not change the truth.  The world was always round even when people thought it was flat.  Nothing changed except that Christopher didn't fall off when he went sailing.  Then man reconsidered and decided the new truth was that the world was round.  God is not a myth because he didn't answer your prayers or because He doesn't act like you think He should.  "If God is real, why do people suffer?  If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?"  If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?

My daughter wants to go to Wal-Mart, so I have to go since she can't drive.  I'll get back to you. I am getting such an education about atheists here but I have to question if this is really typical of the majority.


Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Emily on August 14, 2011, 03:52:01 PM
Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

I don't. You missed the point of the question, huh?

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I am having so much trouble responding to the posts because I can't seem to get the hang of copying a portion of a post and responding. :-\

It's not that hard. Try the quote function. Test it in the test area (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html). Really, it's not that hard to do. There's even a nifty quoting tutorial (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html) that'll help you out.

Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on August 14, 2011, 04:01:04 PM
In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness. 

That would be because they'll have no awareness of anything after death.  So of course they wouldn't "bemoan" it.


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Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets.  Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you've just slipped in [wiki]Pascal's Wager[/wiki] here.


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God is not a myth because he didn't answer your prayers or because He doesn't act like you think He should.  "If God is real, why do people suffer?  If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?"  If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?

As I've asked others before, what's the difference between a god that doesn't answer prayer, and a god that doesn't exist at all?  If god allows suffering, allows child molestation and murder(and is aware of every case of such), then what good is prayer?  Like many others, you're not demostrating how god is any different than your imaginary friend.
Title: Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
Post by: naemhni on August 14, 2011, 04:08:56 PM
Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

Not specifically, no, but I don't doubt that it's happened.  People pray for absurd results all the time.

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I am having so much trouble responding to the posts because I can't seem to get the hang of copying a portion of a post and responding. :-\

It does take a little practice.  There's a test area you can use if you feel the need.

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Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum?

There are atheists of a number of different stripes.  For my own part, I try to use a more sympathetic voice because I have found (after some "experimentation", as it were) that that approach suits me better.  Others prefer to be more, ah, "direct".

In any event, I would ask that you try to keep things in perspective.  Atheists may sometimes belittle and ridicule you for your beliefs, and you no doubt find that annoying.  However, Christians are forever stalking us, vandalizing our property, and making death threats against us.  In my view, we have the short end of the stick; do you disagree?