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Community Zone => Testimonials => Topic started by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:01:38 PM

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:01:38 PM
[modbreak]The topic starter has edited out his original OP (his testimony) and, for an as yet unknown reason, has decided to replace it with an almost identical copy of this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16089.msg361066#msg361066) from this thread.

Since this has destroyed the flow of the conversation and left the original topic 'deformed' (at least for the first few pages) I've removed the edit and replaced it with this notification to avoid confusion for latecomers to the thread.[/modbreak]



Edit:

Anfauglir kindly attempted as good a reconstruction of the original OP as could be gathered.

I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst. The love and connection I felt with it seemed to be diminishing rapidly. From everything I had observed, the world was on a course of self-destruction.  People were growing unhappier, more detached and judgmental by the minute. I asked myself what I could do, if anything.

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I had to do something.  I decided that I would try to do something to save it.  Yes, I know how it sounds, but that was my thinking.

It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there.  He let me know that He was there, had always been there, that He loved me, and that I would be working for Him for now on.

I was open to the possibility of God existing, but not unless it was proven to me, and I would never have cracked open a bible to seek it out.  I wasn't looking for God at all.  God tapped me on the shoulder by His own volition.  He revealed himself to me, despite the fact that I was an unbeliever.

Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all.  You can't conceive of Him.  It seems like nonsense.  There is a lot more going on in reality though than what you can see.  From what I have witnessed, there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period.  They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time.  That time for many of you may never come

The point is, you can come up with the most solid logical proof, but this has nothing to do with your arguments or understanding.  I wasn't religious, knew nothing about the bible, jesus or anything God related.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 07, 2010, 07:05:47 PM
would the result have been the same for Budah,Allah,or a jug of milk substituted for your almighty?

Gimme a break
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: jetson on October 07, 2010, 07:08:08 PM
Welcome to the forum!

So, you have proclaimed your knowledge of God, and yet you bring nothing that is convincing, except for your own personal feelings.  Your heart, it's a muscle that pumps blood, that's it.  And you have heaped a definition upon that organ that you seem to think gives you some level of credibility in your beliefs.  We all know what the "in my heart" feeling means, but it is nothing more than a personal feeling.

If God was real, we could not be standing here saying God is not real, rather, we would be having a different discussion regarding the known attributes and qualities of this god.  We would not be disputing it's existence, any more than we recognize the existence of gravity (stepping off of a cliff provides all the evidence we need.)

There are no cliffs to step off of for God.  None.

You are nothing more than another human who "feels" there is a God, and who has absolutely nothing outside of personal beliefs and feelings to support that belief.  You have nothing.  You prove nothing.  

All gods are imaginary.  That you refuse to see this is only your problem, and your personal delusion.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: General Lee on October 07, 2010, 07:11:32 PM
I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I had to do something.  I decided that I would try to do something to save it.  Yes, I know how it sounds, but that was my thinking.

It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there.

God didn't find you, you found god. Seek and you shall find. You were looking for something to attach to and religion is always the easiest. No need to go out and actually do something, just pray and you're giving the best gift of all.   Child Please.

EDIT:
I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I decided that I would try to do something to save it.

What are you doing to "save the world"?

If it was just heading over into theism, I really do believe that you just made it a little worse.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: snkiesch on October 07, 2010, 07:11:45 PM
Neither do you what is god's favorite color? If you honestly were seeking the truth you would know the real history of your myth. The only thing you know about your myth is what you have been told by people who are just as naive about the truth as you are from what I can tell.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:12:57 PM
Shouldn't this be in the Testimonial Section since it is basically a life experience posing as preaching?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: jetson on October 07, 2010, 07:14:54 PM
Neither do you what is god's favorite color? If you honestly were seeking the truth you would know the real history of your myth. The only thing you know about your myth is what you have been told by people who are just as naive about the truth as you are from what I can tell.

Excellent point, and the OP would be wise to truly seek the most up to date knowledge of Christianity, its history, and the history of its central documents, The Bible.  The OP should indeed do a little research before handing his life to such a delusion.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: dloubet on October 07, 2010, 07:16:08 PM
If none of our arguments matter, then you have made up your mind that you are infallible in your detection and identification of supernatural beings. Further, you believe you cannot be fooled by these beings you claim to detect and identify.

Your arrogance is astounding.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:19:23 PM
  The point is, you can come up with the most solid logical proof, but this has nothing to do with your arguments or understanding.  I wasn't religious, knew nothing about the bible, jesus or anything God related. 


Well, thanks for a wall of posted nothingness.

Except this little Liar For ChristTM gem bolded above.

If you live in the wester culture, it is simply not possible for you to have grown up without SOME indoctrination to the bible and biblegod and his mythical "son" jesus.

It permeates our culture in every medium possible. So you were already "pre-conditioned" to the myth before you actively started "seeking."

And, as most people who fall into the myth, you opened yourself up at a vulnerable period in your life and, lo and behold, "found" the answer.

Except you already know that the entire myth fails every test of logic.

It's a "feel good" "wishful thinking" phenomenon.

You know it, which is why you are trying to quash that line of "defense" right out of the starting gate.

No, no amount of "want to" makes the myth of biblegod, or any god-being, a reality.

Sorry that you stopped your critical thinking skills so early in life. Perhaps when you really do approach the subject with an awareness of how you have not only been pre-indoctrinated, but how you have also voluntarily turned off the entire logic section of your brain you will see how ridiculous your "testimony" above is.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:20:31 PM
"So, you have proclaimed your knowledge of God, and yet you bring nothing that is convincing, except for your own personal feelings.  Your heart, it's a muscle that pumps blood, that's it.  And you have heaped a definition upon that organ that you seem to think gives you some level of credibility in your beliefs.  We all know what the "in my heart" feeling means, but it is nothing more than a personal feeling."

Well, I wasn't trying to convince anyone, and what you said actually ties into my point.  It *is* a personal thing.  Until God reveals Himself to you, you don't know Him and can't know Him.  

"If God was real, we could not be standing here saying God is not real, rather, we would be having a different discussion regarding the known attributes and qualities of this god.  We would not be disputing it's existence, any more than we recognize the existence of gravity (stepping off of a cliff provides all the evidence we need.)

There are no cliffs to step off of for God.  None."


Because people are disputing Gods existence rather than discussing His attributes means God doesn't exist?  How does that follow?


You are nothing more than another human who "feels" there is a God, and who has absolutely nothing outside of personal beliefs and feelings to support that belief.  You have nothing.  You prove nothing.  

All gods are imaginary.  That you refuse to see this is only your problem, and your personal delusion.


Again, that's my point.  Only God can prove Himself.  I can't prove Him.  Also, saying all Gods are imaginary because you don't have any personal experience with God doesn't make it true.  It just means you have no direct knowledge of God.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: General Lee on October 07, 2010, 07:28:02 PM
I have no idea what you mean by "God". It's a catch-all term designed to be anything the user wants it to be. Provide a definition.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:28:23 PM
If none of our arguments matter, then you have made up your mind that you are infallible in your detection and identification of supernatural beings. Further, you believe you cannot be fooled by these beings you claim to detect and identify.

Your arrogance is astounding.

I just know what I experienced.  There wasn't any room left for doubt.  God showed me how He was there my entire life.  Yes, I could be fooled by a supernatural being, but unconditional love is not something any being but God would be capable of, let alone being the essence of all things, including myself.

Btw, it's weird how in your argument you deny the possibility of God but then bring up the possibility that I could be fooled by supernatural beings.  You might want to examine how your worldview allows for the possibility of supernatural beings which could impersonate God but the conception of God Himself existing is ridiculous.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:33:25 PM
Again, that's my point.  Only God can prove Himself.  I can't prove Him.  Also, saying all Gods are imaginary because you don't have any personal experience with God doesn't make it true.  It just means you have no direct knowledge of God.

tothesea


No, the god-being cannot "prove" anything as it is a myth.

It is a myth created by superstitious people to control other superstitious people during an incredibly superstitious period in history.

And I'm sorry, but you are yet another arrogant F**K who thinks he knows what any of us have done or gone through in our own search and belief in god-being.

You seem to think we just popped out of nowhere and have no clue what real and genuine religious connection is.

That's pretty arrogant of you.

The reason you like to say it's "personal" is because you know it's bullshit.

The "unconditional love" you experienced was from YOURSELF, mate.

Quit trying to push it off on something else.

And you did not answer my question or address the lie you spouted -- please see my previous post above.

Oh, and stop preaching on the forums. It's against the rules.

If you are only spouting personal "testimony" you need to do that in the appropriate forum and not in the General Religious Discussion forum.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:34:58 PM
Well, thanks for a wall of posted nothingness.

Except this little Liar For ChristTM gem bolded above.

If you live in the wester culture, it is simply not possible for you to have grown up without SOME indoctrination to the bible and biblegod and his mythical "son" jesus.

It permeates our culture in every medium possible. So you were already "pre-conditioned" to the myth before you actively started "seeking."

And, as most people who fall into the myth, you opened yourself up at a vulnerable period in your life and, lo and behold, "found" the answer.


Actually you couldn't be more wrong.  I didn't really know anything about the bible, or Jesus.  All I knew of was a judgmental angry God who was going to send me to hell for being me.  I had no emotional need for God either.  My concern was for the world, not for myself.  Not only that but I didn't become religious, and I am still not religious, so you're really jumping to conclusions here.

Except you already know that the entire myth fails every test of logic.

It's a "feel good" "wishful thinking" phenomenon.

You know it, which is why you are trying to quash that line of "defense" right out of the starting gate.

No, no amount of "want to" makes the myth of biblegod, or any god-being, a reality.

Sorry that you stopped your critical thinking skills so early in life. Perhaps when you really do approach the subject with an awareness of how you have not only been pre-indoctrinated, but how you have also voluntarily turned off the entire logic section of your brain you will see how ridiculous your "testimony" above is.


As I said before, this was direct revelation.  I wasn't looking for it.  I didn't read a bible and suddenly become convinced.  Gods Spirit came upon me and let me know those things in no uncertain terms.  I wasn't looking for God, nor was I was worried for myself or what would happen to me.  I appreciate your concern for my well being by my critical thinking skills are doing just fine.  If you had actually read my post you would see that I didn't become convinced for any other reason than Gods direct intervention, which has nothing to do with logic, or thinking.  That was the entire point..that you can only know God by revelation.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:40:49 PM
Two things, you need to read the rules of this forum.

You are not quoting properly and it's an easy thing to learn. Please read the FAQs and practice in the "test area" if you have to.

But it's crucial that you learn appropriate quoting skills.

You have still not answered my question.

Where did you grow up?

I have no concern for your well-being by the way. I rarely do for people who are willfully ignorant and closing down their minds and critical thinking skills.

I'm also going to officially report you if you don't stop preaching --

please request the moderators to more your thread into the Testimonial section.

And read the FAQs before you continue.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 07:41:02 PM
Welcome to the site.

I once claimed to know God, until I began observing the world around me. Then I began doubting his existence and wanting to believe in something more real. I don't want this...

Only God can prove Himself.

I want something that can be verified. An answered pray, some say, is god proving himself. Well I began to think along the lines of the yes, no or wait (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI&feature=player_embedded) video[1].

What might pass for god proving himself to some has more natural attributes.

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die.

You sound like a few of my friends who used to be former druggies. They wanted a change in their lives, and to kick the habit, so they clung onto this feel good story about some god who sent his son to the world to save the world of their sins and to offer a street of gold to walk on to those who believe in his son.

It's funny, though. Because god is going on doing his own thing, completely ignoring his creation's pleads. He seems to answer really stupid prayers while ignoring more important problems, like children starving. If he exists he's a horrible, horrible thing to believe in.

 1. and I should note I became an atheist long before this site was formed.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:41:37 PM
Yay!

Thanks Mod 11!

Hugs!!

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:41:48 PM
Again, that's my point.  Only God can prove Himself.  I can't prove Him.  Also, saying all Gods are imaginary because you don't have any personal experience with God doesn't make it true.  It just means you have no direct knowledge of God.

tothesea


No, the god-being cannot "prove" anything as it is a myth.

It is a myth created by superstitious people to control other superstitious people during an incredibly superstitious period in history.

And I'm sorry, but you are yet another arrogant F**K who thinks he knows what any of us have done or gone through in our own search and belief in god-being.

You seem to think we just popped out of nowhere and have no clue what real and genuine religious connection is.

That's pretty arrogant of you.

The reason you like to say it's "personal" is because you know it's bullshit.

The "unconditional love" you experienced was from YOURSELF, mate.

Quit trying to push it off on something else.

And you did not answer my question or address the lie you spouted -- please see my previous post above.

Oh, and stop preaching on the forums. It's against the rules.

If you are only spouting personal "testimony" you need to do that in the appropriate forum and not in the General Religious Discussion forum.

I don't think we are mates, mate, if you think I am an arrogant **** who is just preaching and blah blah blah etc.  Most of your post here just seems angry and hateful.  Also, I think it's out of line to accuse me of lying about something because you are so closed-minded and set in your beliefs that you cannot conceive of it being true.  Sorry to inform you but everything I said is the absolute truth.  I don't lie, about anything, except the occassional white lie to spare someones feelings.  Are you really trying to engage me in conversation here or just emote your angry feelings about God?  Im not your punching bag, matey.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:43:54 PM
No, it's not angry or hateful.

It's pretty much full of disgust I have for people who are as arrogant as you.

Disgust is not the same as anger or hate.

And god-beings are myths.

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 07:45:41 PM


Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

hehe...

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 12:11
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:46:08 PM
 Are you really trying to engage me in conversation here or just emote your angry feelings about God?  Im not your punching bag, matey.

How can someone be "angry" about a mythological creature?

Are you angry about Lord Voldemort?

Or Darth Vader?

But I do hold little regard at all for people who should be using critical thinking skills voluntarily turning them off because they are afraid of taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions.

Again, where are you from? That is a legitimate question, and you know it is, so perhaps that is why you keep avoiding the answer?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:48:16 PM


Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

hehe...

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 12:11

My point exactly. The superstitious people who wrote the myths and legends in the collection of fairy tales you call the bible KNOW that one has to turn off the rational thinking part of their brains.

That was my point, especially since I knew that was your go-to excuse.

You have voluntarily submitted to a lobotomy, basically.

So again, grow up and take responsibility for your actions and quit trying to foist off on an imaginary creature.

It's distasteful and makes you seem, well, retarded, especially when you turn off your brain on purpose!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:48:54 PM
Welcome to the site.

I once claimed to know God, until I began observing the world around me. Then I began doubting his existence and wanting to believe in something more real. I don't want this...

Only God can prove Himself.

I want something that can be verified. An answered pray, some say, is god proving himself. Well I began to think along the lines of the yes, no or wait (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI&feature=player_embedded) video[1].

What might pass for god proving himself to some has more natural attributes.

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die.

You sound like a few of my friends who used to be former druggies. They wanted a change in their lives, and to kick the habit, so they clung onto this feel good story about some god who sent his son to the world to save the world of their sins and to offer a street of gold to walk on to those who believe in his son.

It's funny, though. Because god is going on doing his own thing, completely ignoring his creation's pleads. He seems to answer really stupid prayers while ignoring more important problems, like children starving. If he exists he's a horrible, horrible thing to believe in.


 1. and I should note I became an atheist long before this site was formed.

Thanks for the welcome.  You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  It isn't for you to determine what God does, or base your faith off of what you see going on in the world.  If you knew God, then you wouldn't doubt, because you would allow yourself to be informed by God about God rather than the world.  The world doesn't know anything about it.  Only God can tell you about God, or prove that He is there.  

Consider that perhaps it is the attitude and weak faith of people like you that contribute to the horrible condition of the world.  If everyone did what they were supposed to rather than whatever they feel like, the world wouldn't have these problems.  
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 07:54:44 PM
You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  

Actually I had strong faith in god. I used to pray to god until I was in tears. I taught bible study and sunday school. My dad and grandfahter are both preachers. I grew up with a very strong faith in god because of that.

All i know it I want to believe in something that can be verified, as I said. And god can't. What passes off as an act of god also has a more natural cause and explanation. 

Quote
Consider that perhaps it is the attitude and weak faith of people like you that contribute to the horrible condition of the world.  If everyone did what they were supposed to rather than whatever they feel like, the world wouldn't have these problems.  

Ouch. Getting a little insulting, aren't ya? Claiming the "horrible condition of the world" is because of people like me. First of all, what horrible conditions are you talking about? What problems are you talking about? Be specific.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:54:54 PM
No, it's not angry or hateful.

It's pretty much full of disgust I have for people who are as arrogant as you.

Disgust is not the same as anger or hate.

And god-beings are myths.

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

I can't think of anything more childish than "Im telling on you" and things like

"Yay!

Thanks Mod 11!

Hugs!!"

You are really quite emotional over this subject.  I'm sorry gimpy, but just because you don't believe in God, and you're convinced, doesn't mean He doesn't exist.  I am amazed at your hyperbole, but unbelievers always get worked up over a pure and simple faith.  The fact is, my existence and my faith validates Gods existence and Gods unconditional love.  I prove God; as He proved Himself to me, I prove Him to you, just by being here as I am.  Exorcise your demons gimpy, for you are filled with ugliness and have no life in you.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:56:26 PM
Thanks for the welcome.  You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  


Wow. Just f**king. . . wow.

Thank goodness this is in the Testimonal section where we can let him fade away into nothingness.

What an arrogant f**k.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 07:57:06 PM
tothesea, you're coming off as a complete dick.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:59:49 PM
No, it's not angry or hateful.

It's pretty much full of disgust I have for people who are as arrogant as you.

Disgust is not the same as anger or hate.

And god-beings are myths.

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

I can't think of anything more childish than "Im telling on you" and things like

"Yay!

Thanks Mod 11!

Hugs!!"

You are really quite emotional over this subject.  I'm sorry gimpy, but just because you don't believe in God, and you're convinced, doesn't mean He doesn't exist.  I am amazed at your hyperbole, but unbelievers always get worked up over a pure and simple faith.  The fact is, my existence and my faith validates Gods existence and Gods unconditional love.  I prove God; as He proved Himself to me, I prove Him to you, just by being here as I am.  Exorcise your demons gimpy, for you are filled with ugliness and have no life in you.

No we get "worked up" over willful ignorance.

That's a big difference.

and you've stonewalled, dodged and avoided several direct questions to you by me.

Please answer them and stop dodging.


By the way, I have plenty of "life" in me, although granted likely less of a timeline than you. Chances are very good that this time next year I will be dead.

So while I muchly enjoyed my life to the fullest before, knowing this gives me an even greater urgency to live and enjoy this life I have.

and when I see people like you, willfully turning off intelligent thought, it is just disgusting.

I pity people like you who cannot face their own humanness and accept their incredible potential for goodness instead of somehow thinking they are "born" bad.

Sad. Disgusting and such a waste of life.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 08:00:48 PM
You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  

Actually I had strong faith in god. I used to pray to god until I was in tears. I taught bible study and sunday school. My dad and grandfahter are both preachers. I grew up with a very strong faith in god because of that.

All i know it I want to believe in something that can be verified, as I said. And god can't. What passes off as an act of god also has a more natural cause and explanation. 

Quote
Consider that perhaps it is the attitude and weak faith of people like you that contribute to the horrible condition of the world.  If everyone did what they were supposed to rather than whatever they feel like, the world wouldn't have these problems.  

Ouch. Getting a little insulting, aren't ya? Claiming the "horrible condition of the world" is because of people like me. First of all, what horrible conditions are you talking about? What problems are you talking about? Be specific.

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough.  If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue.  If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God.  How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it?  That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit.  The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind;  the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 08:03:23 PM
tothesea, you're coming off as a complete dick.

Apparently being a Dick For ChristTM is okay.

Just like being a Liar For ChristTM is.

Where did you grow up, tothesea?

You are afraid to tell me because it will prove a large part of your "testimony" is a bald faced lie.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 08:04:59 PM

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough.  If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue.  If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God.  How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it?  That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit.  The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind;  the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

again, you're coming off as a dick. But whatever. I don't enjoy being preached too, and let the record state that I've taken the blasphemy challenge so even if your god is real there is no hope for me.

Mark 3:28-29 (King James Version)
28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

I Emilie (last name hidden) deny the existence of the holy spirit.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 07, 2010, 08:31:12 PM
The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

Whenever people say crap like this I have to ask: Where is your control group? How do you know a bunch of god-loving people, all grouped in a monoculture of proper religiosity, would have a better world?

I'm guessing at some point they'd start killing each other over arguments about whether or not Jesus needed deodorant or something.

You live, we all live, in a world where too many people need to be right. And tothesea is an example of this. You read "Seek and ye shall find" and you went out and sought and you found something thing now you've got it exactly right and all of us who disagree with you, whether atheist or wrong wrong theist, is now an enemy.

On the bright side, it's normally not to bad being such an enemy. With you spending all your time trying to convince your imaginary god that you're worthy of his imaginary love, you don't really have the time to burn any of us at the stake. Either that or you fear being fined by the EPA for doing such things. I don't know which it is.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: anthony_retford on October 07, 2010, 08:48:18 PM
Tothesea, I would like to know about this god of yours.You seem old enough to know about other gods so which one is yours? You say you know your god so please give us some details about what happened when it came to you and changed your life. What were the circumstances?

You say the world has a problem because of the lack of god's love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind. Is this love for your god or is it your god's love for mankind? I am not sure what you meant, although it seems the first interpretation is more meaningful. I will go with that one until you correct me.

Since I lived in China for some years, are you saying the Chinese don't love your god so "the world follows after death, and has earned its reward" I wonder what that means. I don't know but it sounds meanspirited.

Did your god tell you to do anything other than witness your conversion? After all, if there are such "problems" existing shouldn't you be doing something to correct the situation? What is the point of a god working with you and doing nothing for everyone else. No wonder others see a touch of arrogance.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 07, 2010, 08:52:58 PM
Yeah, you are 'ex-agnostic', and Christine O'Donnell was a 'witch'.

May as well say you used to be smart, but then you rode your motorcycle without a helmet and rammed your head through a block wall.

Christianity, the religion of lying, loathsome little trolls who'll do ANYTHING to regain dominion over the world and rekindle the endless cycle of wars of Christian-versus-Christian, and Christian-versus-EVERYONE that Europe so enjoyed for a thousand years after the sad religion took hold.

Seems like every Christian we see is an 'Ex-' something nowadays.

http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-chicago/christine-o-donnell-knows-we-need-more-anti-masturbation-witches-congress
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/sarah-palin-urges-christine-odonnell-to-run-with-that-witchcraft-hook/
http://www.mediaite.com/online/christine-odonnells-new-campaign-ad-im-not-a-witch-i-am-you/

I like to bring this loony lady up because she so epitomizes the insulting 'I was just like you' statements that the most moronic of religious morons love to puke at us.  And she wants to get into congress and 'let jesus rule' through her.  Oh, goody.  

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_020 on October 07, 2010, 09:10:45 PM
Hi tothesea,

Thank you for joining our forum.  It would be easier on you and especially on the people reading your posts if you would consistently use the quote function.  You can learn about it here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0).  Please take some time to practice.  If you have questions about it, feel free to PM me.

thanks and happy posting

020
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Astreja on October 07, 2010, 11:21:43 PM
If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough.  If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you...

I assert that there is absolutely no objective empirical evidence for this alleged Holy Spirit, and that the subjective experience of "the Spirit moving" is 100% generated by the human nervous system.

If you feel otherwise, kindly demonstrate your True Christian™ superpowers by restoring a limb to an amputee or catapulting a mountain into the sea.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: natlegend on October 08, 2010, 01:06:34 AM
tothesea: keep taking your meds, they'll kick in soon I'm sure...
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: snkiesch on October 08, 2010, 02:17:24 AM
Romans 9 says you are wrong, I would still like to know what do you know about the history of your myth.  Do you wonder why NO CONTEMPORARY HISTORIAN wrote a word about Jesus.  Philo who lived at the same time in the area as the alledged Jesus never wrote about the saints wandering the streets or any of the other miraculous deeds the gospels claim?

What do you know about the Marcionites? Councils of Nicea?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 08, 2010, 02:29:46 AM
Thanks Mod 11!

Wasn't me whatever it was. I've only just got in to find this lovely thread 'o' preach.

What joy. &)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 08, 2010, 05:34:06 AM
It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there.  He let me know that He was there, had always been there, that He loved me, and that I would be working for Him for now on. 

I was open to the possibility of God existing, but not unless it was proven to me, and I would never have cracked open a bible to seek it out.  I wasn't looking for God at all.  God tapped me on the shoulder by His own volitionHe revealed himself to me, despite the fact that I was an unbeliever. 

Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all.  You can't conceive of Him.  It seems like nonsense.  There is a lot more going on in reality though than what you can see.  From what I have witnessed, there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period.  They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time.  That time for many of you may never come.

What an interesting view.  So, you are saying that it is entirely down to your god as to whether anyone is an atheist or believer?  And that your god will, deliberately, NOT engage with many of us....ever.

What afterlife do you believe in, tothesea?  What happens to the people that your god decides he will never reveal himself to?  Does it condemn them for something you assert is completely beyond their control?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: natlegend on October 08, 2010, 05:52:39 AM
Tothesea, which god came to you?    :shrug
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: HAL on October 08, 2010, 06:42:11 AM
Step A

I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst. The love and connection I felt with it seemed to be diminishing rapidly. From everything I had observed, the world was on a course of self-destruction.  People were growing unhappier, more detached and judgmental by the minute. I asked myself what I could do, if anything. 

Step B

Quote
I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I had to do something.  I decided that I would try to do something to save it.  Yes, I know how it sounds, but that was my thinking.

Step C

Quote
It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there. 

You created a god in your mind to make yoursself feel better about things. Happens all the time. You are not unique in this.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 08, 2010, 07:39:59 AM
Quote from: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:01:38 PM
Quote
I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst.

In what way is the world changing for the 'worst'?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: voodoo child on October 08, 2010, 07:52:18 AM
Tothesea, which god came to you?    :shrug

the god of euphoric endorphins.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 08, 2010, 08:25:14 AM
You say you have found God (or, rather, that God found you, I guess), but that you are still not religious. I'm assuming that you are Christian, and of the ilk that contends that the "relationship" with god is the important thing, though you have not actually made any of this clear. It would be helpful to understanding you if you did. It would be helpful to know your stance on salvation as well. Is it through faith or works? Or are you the Universalist type who believes we basically all get to heaven?

Most Christians we get here want to reply to our claims of never having found God that we were "not searching with an open heart", or such. You accuse Gimpy of having weak faith despite her background, and give that as the reason that she "backslid". And yet, you, who were completely uninterested in God, were somehow chosen to be touched and spoken to in a way which made it utterly impossible not to respond to.

Which is it? And, what of free will? I'm assuming, also, that you buy into the free will concept to explain how people do not accept god. What makes you so special as to deserve this selective treatment? If he could do this for you, why not for all? If he is loving and wanted nothing but our salvation, would he not extend the same undeniable courtesy to everyone?

Your testimony really doesn't make sense, and especially so when we don't know the position you are coming from.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: velkyn on October 08, 2010, 08:42:10 AM
If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough.  If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue.  If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God.  How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it?  That makes no sense what so ever.
Ah, I always love a good claim of being the OneTrueChristiantm.  I was a Christian too, Presbyterian, just as good as you. You want to beleive you are special, tothesea.  You want to claim some magical being cares for you and only you. You want to believe that no one could possibly find your beliefs wrong because you have invested so much of your self-worth into them.  I have found them wrong and can .  I've read the bible as a believer and as not. I prayed and prayed for God to help me salvage my faith. I got nothing. Why is that, tothesea?  Why has your god evidently abandoned me and thus damn me?  I certainly didn't abandon him without a fight.  I have come to the conclusion your god doesnt' exist at all. No evidence for it no evidence for the claims of the bible, nothing.

I am curious. Have you read your bible? Many "good Christians" haven't.  Do you really know what you are professing to believe in, rather than accepting what others tell you to beleive in?  I have to doubt it. 

Quote
If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit.  The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind;  the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.
and the world is much better than it has ever been. Less slavery, better health, more food, less war, less crime, etc.  You seem to desperately need to create a fantasy to excuse your belief.  The lies that you repeat to yourself are sad and if your faith is only built on lies and fear, it doesn't have much going for it.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: screwtape on October 08, 2010, 08:54:39 AM
If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough.  If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue.  If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God.  How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it?  That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit.  The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind;  the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

Why is it so important to you to try to discredit other people's claims of faith?  How does that help your argument?  What does it prove?  Whether Emily or Gimpy or me or anyone else had "weak faith" is irrelevent to the question of the existence of gods.

What is wrong with needing evidence to believe in a god?  You ask for evidence for everything else you believe, but not yhwh.  Why?  Why do you think yhwh wants us to believe without evidence?  Why is blind faith demanded of us by your god?  Of what use is that to a deity?


Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: plethora on October 08, 2010, 10:50:29 AM
Well, I wasn't trying to convince anyone, and what you said actually ties into my point.  It *is* a personal thing.  Until God reveals Himself to you, you don't know Him and can't know Him.  

Assuming there is a god and what you stated above is true... there is no way any of us can know god unless he reveals himself to us.

In other words, it's his fault I am an atheist because he doesn't feel like revealing himself to me. Well then...  we atheists can't be blamed now, can we?

If you're not here to convince us and we can't know god unless he wants us to... then what the hell are you here for?

Nice way to paint yourself into a corner in less than 40 words. &)

Next!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pamindfw on October 08, 2010, 11:42:35 AM
What I am trying to say is that knowing God has nothing to do with your mind.

but it has everything to do with yours.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 03:49:01 PM

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough.  If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue.  If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God.  How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it?  That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit.  The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind;  the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

again, you're coming off as a dick. But whatever. I don't enjoy being preached too, and let the record state that I've taken the blasphemy challenge so even if your god is real there is no hope for me.

Mark 3:28-29 (King James Version)
28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

I Emilie (last name hidden) deny the existence of the holy spirit.

Emilie, admit that you never were a preacher and that basically you are just lying to justify your beliefs.  I saw in another thread that you admitted your house was stacked with objects of devil worship.  I will pray for you Emilie.  I'm sorry that you've come to the point where you feel you need to do the most unforgivable thing just to cut off your chances at Salvation..because you don't have the courage to face who and what you are.  It's sad Emilie.  It grieves my heart to see someone in such a state.  God loves you and cares for you, and nothing, not even the most horrific thing you could do, will ever change that. 

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 03:54:26 PM
The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

Whenever people say crap like this I have to ask: Where is your control group? How do you know a bunch of god-loving people, all grouped in a monoculture of proper religiosity, would have a better world?

I'm guessing at some point they'd start killing each other over arguments about whether or not Jesus needed deodorant or something.

You live, we all live, in a world where too many people need to be right. And tothesea is an example of this. You read "Seek and ye shall find" and you went out and sought and you found something thing now you've got it exactly right and all of us who disagree with you, whether atheist or wrong wrong theist, is now an enemy.

On the bright side, it's normally not to bad being such an enemy. With you spending all your time trying to convince your imaginary god that you're worthy of his imaginary love, you don't really have the time to burn any of us at the stake. Either that or you fear being fined by the EPA for doing such things. I don't know which it is.

Blessed are those who hear Gods word and obey it.  If everyone truly listened to God, and practiced in their lives what He taught them, then Heaven would dawn.  And as I stated, I wasn't looking for God..He found me.  I'm sorry but I don't fit your mold of people who seek God because they are sad and lonely or whatever desperation you think leads them to creating an illusion of His existence.  However, I'm happy to inform you that not only is God very real, but you *will* be meeting Him someday soon. 

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: jetson on October 08, 2010, 03:56:27 PM

Emilie, admit that you never were a preacher and that basically you are just lying to justify your beliefs.  I saw in another thread that you admitted your house was stacked with objects of devil worship.  I will pray for you Emilie.  I'm sorry that you've come to the point where you feel you need to do the most unforgivable thing just to cut off your chances at Salvation..because you don't have the courage to face who and what you are.  It's sad Emilie.  It grieves my heart to see someone in such a state.  God loves you and cares for you, and nothing, not even the most horrific thing you could do, will ever change that. 

tothesea

Wow.  Did you get this message from God, or did you make it up all by yourself?  As others have said, your arrogance is thick here.  You're not going to accomplish much of anything on this forum, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 08, 2010, 03:58:18 PM
Emilie, admit that you never were a preacher and that basically you are just lying to justify your beliefs.

No.

Quote
  I saw in another thread that you admitted your house was stacked with objects of devil worship. 

Wrong, buddy. I don't worship the devil. I have images of demons, gargoyles, etc around my house because I think they are neat but I don't worship them.

Quote
  I will pray for you Emilie.

Do what you want to. You're not the only one to pray for me.

Quote
  I'm sorry that you've come to the point where you feel you need to do the most unforgivable thing just to cut off your chances at Salvation..

Don't be sorry for me.

Quote
because you don't have the courage to face who and what you are. 

Wrong, champ. I do have the courage. I face the world head on and take control of it.

Quote
It's sad Emilie. 

What's sad is someone who "once believed in science". Why the pretense in that part of your OP? Do you not believe in science anymore, even though science has significantly improved the world, far beyond what your god is capable of doing. Science gets results and gets jobs done. your god sits around on his all-mighty ass and does nothing.

Quote
God loves you and cares for you

If god loves me then he'll have to take it up with my husband. FWIW: My husband benches 350 and can probably take god out.  :P
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 03:58:44 PM
Well, I wasn't trying to convince anyone, and what you said actually ties into my point.  It *is* a personal thing.  Until God reveals Himself to you, you don't know Him and can't know Him.  

Assuming there is a god and what you stated above is true... there is no way any of us can know god unless he reveals himself to us.

In other words, it's his fault I am an atheist because he doesn't feel like revealing himself to me. Well then...  we atheists can't be blamed now, can we?

If you're not here to convince us and we can't know god unless he wants us to... then what the hell are you here for?

Nice way to paint yourself into a corner in less than 40 words. &)

Next!


I don't blame atheists for being atheists.  Without direct knowledge of God, the mind cannot comprehend God at all.  However, anyone can choose to know God, and if they do with sincerity, He will open the door.  I was just someone who probably never would have done that, and God, for whatever reason, decided to do the work for me.  I was locked into my unbelief and never would have stepped outside of it, but God deemed me worthy to know Him.  Maybe I was an exception.  I don't know.  All I know is that He does exist, and if you seek Him you will find Him.  I hope that you open your mind a bit and consider it.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 08, 2010, 04:03:04 PM
tothesea,


Have you read our rules & etiquette guides yet?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 08, 2010, 04:06:28 PM
I don't blame atheists for being atheists.  Without direct knowledge of God, the mind cannot comprehend God at all.  However, anyone can choose to know God, and if they do with sincerity, He will open the door.  I was just someone who probably never would have done that, and God, for whatever reason, decided to do the work for me.  I was locked into my unbelief and never would have stepped outside of it, but God deemed me worthy to know Him.  Maybe I was an exception.  I don't know.  All I know is that He does exist, and if you seek Him you will find Him.  I hope that you open your mind a bit and consider it.

Indeed, you shouldn't blame atheists - you should blame god.  After all...

Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all.  You can't conceive of Him.....there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period.  They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time.  That time for many of you may never come.

So which is it?  You said that we couldn't change our beliefs WITHOUT god's intervention, so exactly how DO we manage to change our beliefs enough to "seek" in the first place?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Narrow Mullen on October 08, 2010, 04:08:38 PM
Hey there tothesea...

God loves you, right?

Well, the problem is, it doesn't seem he does. Before you believed in him, he was going to send you to Hell. Eternal torture.

Do you have children? If they didn't worship you, would you send them to be tortured until they do?

Something about a loving god letting someone be tortured doesn't seem that loving.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: HAL on October 08, 2010, 04:15:44 PM
 However, anyone can choose to know God, and if they do with sincerity, He will open the door.

You say this god exists. I choose to want to know this god. I am sincere. What happens now?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 08, 2010, 05:30:58 PM
Tothesea, you're a treasure trove of troll.

I wish you didn't have to go. It's for the best though, a few weeks and you'd be crying yourself to sleep, sweetheart.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: snkiesch on October 08, 2010, 05:32:51 PM
Tothesea.
I am curious of what you know about the history of your myth. Would you please answer my questions?  I am not talking about traditions but what we actually have evidence for.  Does it not bother you that NO CONTEMPORARY WRITERS Of the period Jesus was supposed to have lived wrote a single word about him?  Have you read any of the early church fathers?  If you are honstly searching for the truth, you can find this and many other details on the internet. Science has brought you the ability to use the internet.  I came on these forums to learn the truth jusi as at one time I believed Santa was real, I believed Jesus was real, the Exodus, flood and on and on once I looked at the evidence I could not lie to myself even if it meant I got one more year of presents from my mom/Santa I had to admit mo0m was Santa.  
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 05:37:05 PM
tothesea,


Have you read our rules & etiquette guides yet?

I'll check it out.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 05:38:03 PM
Tothesea, which god came to you?    :shrug

The Creator, or as He likes to be known, the Father.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
Hey there tothesea...

God loves you, right?

Well, the problem is, it doesn't seem he does. Before you believed in him, he was going to send you to Hell. Eternal torture.

Do you have children? If they didn't worship you, would you send them to be tortured until they do?

Something about a loving god letting someone be tortured doesn't seem that loving.

Gods love is unconditional.  He makes it rain on the just and unjust.  He helps everyone, including unbelievers.  We'll see what happens on judgment day, but for an example..he rescued me from my unbelief.  I never would have turned to Him otherwise.  So my example alone proves that God is trying to save everyone.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 05:43:43 PM
Tothesea, you're a treasure trove of troll.

I wish you didn't have to go. It's for the best though, a few weeks and you'd be crying yourself to sleep, sweetheart.

What makes you think I am a troll?  Why do I have to go?  Where am I going?  Why would I be crying myself to sleep?  Why are you calling me sweetheart?  It's kind of disturbing.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 05:55:55 PM
 However, anyone can choose to know God, and if they do with sincerity, He will open the door.

You say this god exists. I choose to want to know this god. I am sincere. What happens now?

Your statement, made in sincerity, is faith that God does exist and that you wish to know Him.  You've opened the door, and He promised that if you do that He will come into your life.  As long as you keep that door open, He will let you know that He is there.  This may be soon, even today, or it could take a little time..don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen right away..as long as you are sincere it will happen.  Once it happens, and you know that He is real, seek after Him! With all your heart, make God the object of your desire.  He will guide you into all truth.  Good luck and God bless.  I will pray for you.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 08, 2010, 05:57:38 PM
Tothesea, I would like to know about this god of yours.You seem old enough to know about other gods so which one is yours? You say you know your god so please give us some details about what happened when it came to you and changed your life. What were the circumstances?

You say the world has a problem because of the lack of god's love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind. Is this love for your god or is it your god's love for mankind? I am not sure what you meant, although it seems the first interpretation is more meaningful. I will go with that one until you correct me.

Since I lived in China for some years, are you saying the Chinese don't love your god so "the world follows after death, and has earned its reward" I wonder what that means. I don't know but it sounds meanspirited.

Did your god tell you to do anything other than witness your conversion? After all, if there are such "problems" existing shouldn't you be doing something to correct the situation? What is the point of a god working with you and doing nothing for everyone else. No wonder others see a touch of arrogance.

I will get back to you on this.  I am time limited on this computer.  I am not ignoring you and will answer these questions.

tothesea
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 08, 2010, 05:59:43 PM
tothesea,


Have you read our rules & etiquette guides yet?

I'll check it out.

maybe you should check them out before you post anything else. I will even link them for you;

The Etiquette Guide (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3997.0)
The Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0)
and finally one you should check out before claiming that we had "weak faith", because I personally find it offense for you to cast judgment on the faith I had.
Intro for Christians (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=228.0)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: HAL on October 08, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Your statement, made in sincerity, is faith that God does exist ...

Um, no it's not. I simply took you up on your claim that -

Quote
anyone can choose to know God, and if they do with sincerity, He will open the door.

If god is real he, according to you, will "open the door". If he is fiction, then nothing will happen.

That's all I'm doing sir.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Str82Hell on October 08, 2010, 06:26:21 PM
Here's my testimony:

I once had an Msc, but I flushed it down the toilet after I lost my mind. You raise all kind of interesting, well thought through and valid points on this website. I am a lunatic and I see you're all wrong. No matter how much sense you'll make, you'll never get it right. That's because you've never tried to comatise yourselves with an overdose of alcohol or amphetamine. You are steeped in delusion about what is really going on here. None of your arguments matter. They will fall to dust.

And lol:
All I can tell you is this.  It was what was in my heart, not in my mind, that brought Him to me.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Pig's_heart.jpg/450px-Pig's_heart.jpg)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Narrow Mullen on October 08, 2010, 06:38:47 PM
Quote
Gods love is unconditional.  He makes it rain on the just and unjust.  He helps everyone, including unbelievers.  We'll see what happens on judgment day, but for an example..he rescued me from my unbelief.  I never would have turned to Him otherwise.  So my example alone proves that God is trying to save everyone.

tothesea

Trying to save everyone? Is he unable to?

Quote
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

So I'll ask you to answer the question again, please. If God is all loving, why does he send people to Hell for disbelief? If your parents tortured you everytime you disobeyed them, would you feel that they loved you? Would you expect your children to love you if you beat them when they didn't listen?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gimpy on October 08, 2010, 06:40:38 PM

Blessed are those who hear Gods word and obey it.  If everyone truly listened to God, and practiced in their lives what He taught them, then Heaven would dawn.  And as I stated, I wasn't looking for God..He found me.  I'm sorry but I don't fit your mold of people who seek God because they are sad and lonely or whatever desperation you think leads them to creating an illusion of His existence.  However, I'm happy to inform you that not only is God very real, but you *will* be meeting Him someday soon. 

tothesea


You got that a little bit wrong, there, mental midget.

RETARDED are those who have imaginary friends -- they live in a state of mental illness and delusion and can't see that they believe an illusion.

God -beings are not real. They are constructs of a superstitious people in order for those people to control other superstitious people.

The sooner you recognize that, they healthier you will be.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 08, 2010, 06:50:39 PM
Quote from: tothesea on October 07, 2010, 07:01:38 PM
Quote
I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst.

In what way is the world changing for the 'worst'?

I was wondering the exact same thing. I don't see it at all. So it's certainly not some indisputable truth. How do you even get to that opinion? Selective thinking, I guess?  :shrug Or maybe tothesea just watches too much television?

I suppose you can assume the world is getting "worse" for more Christians because more and more people are drifting away from their religion and their primitive, 2,000 year old Goatherder's Guide to The Universe... Science punches shotgun holes through Yahweh's turf on the daily. And since it's part of the belief system that people should follow a very specific dellusion in order to make their god happy, and less and less people do every day, I can easily see how a religious (and especially Christian) mindset will start interpreting everything as "worse".

"Of course things are getting worse! Less people think like *ME*!!! Nobody cares about my invisible friend! They laugh at my super-spooky magical murderbook that I've based my life around! They don't take me seriously anymore, and they're making Baby Jesus cry!"

And when you think everybody around you is going to be tortured for all eternity... f**k. Yeah, I'd think that would have to be a serious downer. That's gotta suck.

Maybe I'm off the mark here. Of course, unless tothesea actually starts ANSWERING the very simple questions and clarifies this stuff, I just have to go off assumptions. Gee whiz. This would be a lot easier if we could get some straight answers. But then he'd actually have to take a position and stick with it instead of offering vagueries, hand-waving, selective thinking and stonewalling.

Somehow, I don't see that happening.  :(

But anyway, I definitely don't see things getting "worse." In fact, I think I see most things getting *better*. Largely thanks to advances in science, medicine, and the proliferation of knowledge, and the places that are becoming less religious.
 
Imagine that! In the 21st century, instead of remaining stagnant in bronze-age supertition, and encouraging education and critical thinking skills, SOCIETIES ADVANCE! The standard of living IMPROVES! People live longer, healthier, happier lives! Who'd a thunk it!?  :o

Hell, even *WAR* has gotten "better". We actually have conventions that attempt to keep unneccesary suffering and civillian casualties to a minimum. War is hell and all, that will never change, but at least most societies recognize the barbarity of it and TRY to exercise a little damage control these days. Success and failure at maintaining those conventions varies of course, but I think it shows a definite improvement over something like, say, the crusades.
 
No, but I'm sure we'd be much better off if everyone kept thinking that leechings cure disease, rubbing bird's blood on yourself cures leporasy, and stoning disobdient slaves and rape victims for not marrying their rapist really kept people healthier and happier. Killing or banishing anybody who thinks or speaks outside of the social norm is a great way to diversify your genepool and enrich your culture. And the Father knows how much better off we'd be if pesky Evil-ution had never come along and given us those terrible vaccines for countless super-fun diseases. For realz.

Of course not EVERYTHING is better for EVERYBODY. Christians are certainly worse off in terms of economic and political power than they've ever been. Their impact on a societal level has decreased 1,000%, and their philosophical and "scientific" contributions have become a subject of ridicule, and even largely unwelcome. Being neutered on the global stage is rarely a "good thing" in the eyes of the eunuch.

Unfortunately, most of the few places that ARE "getting worse", seem to be doing so in large part BECAUSE of religion... Mostly in 3rd world countries that have the greatest needs for improvement. The expansion of Islam Extremisim, women as second class citizens, death to the nonbelievers, science is the devil... Christians disuading Africans from using birth control to stem the spread of AIDS... Theists of all kinds decrying "unnatural" scientific advances like G.E. crops that can prevent literally millions of people from starving to death, sexual repression spawning all manner of criminal and human-right infringing degenerates (even in the priesthood)... that sort of thing.

Simple human greed and prejudice contributes too, and oppressive governments do their fair share naturally, and so does misinformation. But religion's definitely doing it's part to make life more miserable for many, while not really helping anybody's standard of living to anywhere near the extent of, say, a source of clean water. Maybe a few missionaries help out here and there (they do a lot of damage too), but any aid they render is done equally as well by secular charities, without utterly destroying a community's ancestral traditions and cultures or saddling communities with all the lies, guilt, and other ugliness that comes with theism.

I mean damn. Anyone ever look into Mother Theresa's "Homes for the dying"? Great googly moogly! Most of those poor bastards would have been better off just loading up on cheap heroin and dying in a gutter!

Really, what it sounds like to me, is this guy took 27 years to actually figure out how rough life can be, and how ambivilant the universe is to "good" and "evil", and it's scared the piss out of him.


I mean, the longer you live, the more good and bad things you're going to see. It's not a question of worse; it's a question of one negative-ass worldview that focuses on the accumulating "bad" things said person has witnessed over the course of X years. Apparently homeboy reached maximum capacity and it broke his brain.  :-\

Cue the religion. The "acceptable" way to justify a negative world-view and to become a judgemental prick to your fellow humans.

Tothesea, which god came to you?    :shrug

The Creator, or as He likes to be known, the Father.

tothesea

Err... Yeeeeah. The Father, huh? I think you need to call child protective services with a quickness, Mongo. Are you being intentionally dense? They're asking which religion or denomination's god you follow. Nobody gives a flying f**k what pet names you have for it. And don't say "Oh, I'm not religious." or "I don't follow a religion." Because SOMEBODY told you what "he" "liked" to be known as.

Just say which god we're talking about. We all know it's an Abrahamic one, or a S.P.A.G. through an Abrahamic prism. We see your rhetoric all the time. It's not original in the slightest, what with your cheesy, faux-profound 1st century poetics and fortune-cookie wisdom, and "The Father", and having it need to "save" people and whatnot. We can read you like a book. A really poorly written one.

Because when you do this transparent "hide being ambiguity" bullshit... You know, the whole "be vague and give an answer that's not really an answer" thing... it certainly doesn't win you any integrity points. I understand you want to leave yourself some wiggle room so that you can make s**t up as you go along and not be able to be pinned down to any one position, but that's the debate tactic of a grade-schooler.

You're not a grade-schooler, are you tothesea? You are a big boy, right? Surely you've got enough Faith to put your beliefs out in the open without fear, right? Afterall, you know the absolute TRUTH. So there's nothing to hide! Bring on the truth!

Besides, I'd think your god would be none-to-pleased that you're trying to defend it in such a dishonest, weasel-y way. Are you EMBARASSED? Like you can't let people see mom drop you off at the busstop?

Hey there tothesea...

God loves you, right?

Well, the problem is, it doesn't seem he does. Before you believed in him, he was going to send you to Hell. Eternal torture.

Do you have children? If they didn't worship you, would you send them to be tortured until they do?

Something about a loving god letting someone be tortured doesn't seem that loving.

Gods love is unconditional.  He makes it rain on the just and unjust.  He helps everyone, including unbelievers.  We'll see what happens on judgment day, but for an example..he rescued me from my unbelief.  I never would have turned to Him otherwise.  So my example alone proves that God is trying to save everyone.

tothesea

Are you high? Your god is all-powerful. If it's "trying to save everyone", it fails at a pretty spectacular rate for an all-powerful being. And your example only proves that *YOU* had some sort of personal experience that convinced you of something. That's it.

It's exactly the same if I tried eating a fistfull of dogshit for the first time and loved it. It would not by any means prove that feces is universally delicious, let alone that people could survive on it.

I really really hope this guy's a troll. Otherwise we're dealing with someone who desperately needs a reality check via a rubberroom, straight jacket, and doctors with happy pills.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 08, 2010, 06:58:02 PM
What makes you think I am a troll?  Why do I have to go?  Where am I going?  Why would I be crying myself to sleep?  Why are you calling me sweetheart?  It's kind of disturbing.

tothesea

ahhhh yes. Your trolling nourishes me.

Do more tricks for me, troll.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 08, 2010, 07:01:23 PM
Thanks for grossing me out before dinner, Str82hell.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Asmoday on October 08, 2010, 07:13:06 PM
Gods love is unconditional. 
Have you actually read the bible?

God's love is not unconditional!

If someone says "I love you, but if you don't do exactly what I say until day X, I will torture you for the rest of your life" then that person is not showing unconditional love towards you. If you use the attribute "unconditional" it means there are no conditions. But clearly there are conditions to God's love.

An entity that will torture people if they don't do X (in this case that would be to believe in God) is not loving unconditionally.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Astreja on October 08, 2010, 07:53:57 PM
Gods love is unconditional.  He makes it rain on the just and unjust.  He helps everyone, including unbelievers.  We'll see what happens on judgment day... {emphasis Mine}

You see, tothesea, this is the problem in a nutshell.  You say your god's love is unconditional, yet it has a "judgment day."

Does.  Not.  Compute.

Oh, as the Apocalypse has already come and gone (April 2, 2001) and your god lost to My coalition, I've taken the liberty of replacing Judgment Day with a potluck supper.  Please bring a chicken dish of your choice.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 08, 2010, 08:51:39 PM
1.  My questions are sincere.  I am not a troll.

2.  I have limited access to the Internet, thus I have to restrict how much I can use the forum from time to time.  Sometimes I may not be able to respond to comments to my questions right away.  Nonetheless, whenever I get a chance, I do read and consider all the comments and appreciate your help very much (well, the sincere answers, anyway).  Your answers are very important to me.

                                                                  -and-

I will get back to you on this.  I am time limited on this computer.  I am not ignoring you and will answer these questions.



Coincidence? Perhaps. :o
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 08, 2010, 09:20:06 PM
I thought the same thing  ;)... Except this one seems somehow sadder and less articulate than the others we've seen in the past few days.

Maybe it's like Xerox syndrome... When you make copies of copies, the quality gets progressively worse.  :D

If they really ARE all different people, then wow. When it rains, it pours. And I'm soaked to the bone with stupid right now.

It COULD be multiple people from the same congregation though. That might explain a few things.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 08, 2010, 09:54:31 PM
It COULD be multiple people from the same congregation though. That might explain a few things.

I thought the same thing. You can't put an exact mathematical percentage on any of the possibilities, but you can still get a sense of which possibilities carry more "weight" than others.

I have never seen a conversation, like the one you and I are having, between religious people discussing atheist "trolls".

I guess our excellent awareness of the likelyhood of any given situation allows us to come to the obvious conclusion that religion is bullshit.  ;)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Historicity on October 08, 2010, 11:11:52 PM
Thanks Mod 11!

Wasn't me whatever it was. I've only just got in to find this lovely thread 'o' preach.

It wasn't you??????  There's a gap there, and you know Who is in the gaps.

It's a miracle!  Praise be to  ...

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: natlegend on October 09, 2010, 12:22:47 AM
Quote
Tothesea, which god came to you?   

Quote
The Creator, or as He likes to be known, the Father.

tothesea

Ah, so you are obviously talking about the ancient Egyptian sun-god Ra... did you know he created all things, even me and you? Isn't that wonderful!? I'm glad you have chosen Ra over all other gods, as Ra is the one and only true god...
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Str82Hell on October 09, 2010, 02:16:08 AM
Thanks for grossing me out before dinner, Str82hell.
You're welcome.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 09, 2010, 02:18:32 AM
tothesea,


Have you read our rules & etiquette guides yet?

I'll check it out.

Good[1]. So can I expect you to actually start following them once you do, what with you being a good christian and all that?
 1. Although, common sense would dictate that reading them before posting on a privately owned forum would have been the sensible option
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: kcrady on October 09, 2010, 03:25:25 AM
I can tell you that regardless of what logical proofs you can come up with to dispute the bible, or what hypocrisy you can point out in believers behavior, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Quote
I can tell you that regardless of what logical proofs you can come up with to dispute the [Qur'an], or what hypocrisy you can point out in believers behavior, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Quote
I can tell you that regardless of what logical proofs you can come up with to dispute the [Baghavad Gita], or what hypocrisy you can point out in believers behavior, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Quote
I can tell you that regardless of what logical proofs you can come up with to dispute the [Book of What is in the Duat], or what hypocrisy you can point out in believers behavior, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Can you explain why the above substitutions would not be equally valid, if stated by someone who had "direct experience" of Allah, Brahman, or Osiris?

>snip<

What I am trying to say is that knowing God has nothing to do with your mind.  Nothing you can conceive of has any bearing on Gods existence or non-existence.  Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all.  You can't conceive of Him.  It seems like nonsense.  There is a lot more going on in reality though than what you can see.  From what I have witnessed, there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period.  They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time.
That time for many of you may never come.

So you're just such a special little snowflake, that the omnimax Creator of a hundred billion galaxies tore through the dimensions of time and space--to end famine and AIDS in Africa?  To bring enlightenment to the whole world?  No--to reveal his presence to you, and you alone.  Yeah.  I'm sure he created the whole Cosmos just so that the person behind the Internet moniker "tothesea" could exist.  Right?

BTW, whichever deity this is that has revealed itself to you, it cannot be the deity of the Bible.  Here's why:

Quote
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

--Matthew 28:18-20

Quote
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

--Mark 16:15

Quote
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

--I Peter 3:15

According to your personal revelation, all of this is futile.  There is simply no point in talking to anyone about God, since only those (assuming there are any besides you, God's favorite magic unicorn) to whom God reveals himself directly through inner experience can have any chance of "getting it" anyway.  All of the sermons in the Gospels and Acts, all of the Epistles, all of the writings of the Church Fathers and the great theologians through the ages--vanity, all is vanity, useless gusts of words addressed to the mind, with which the real God has nothing to do.  

What purpose can there possibly be for a book, any book, when the only way to have valid knowledge of God is by being one of the select few to whom God opts to reveal himself directly through inner experience?  A book requires reading, and hermeneutics, and studies of the meanings of words in ancient Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek, efforts to understand ancient idioms and cultural practices that illuminate the meaning of the texts, an entire science of textual criticism to compare the various manuscripts, etc., etc..  All of which you, the Great Revelator, sweep aside as so much dust and ashes.

Do not be surprised if the rest of Christendom is not impressed.

Of course, the relationship between you and the rest of Christendom is not really our problem.  We have no dog in that fight.  What is perhaps more relevant to us is your claim that the Divine, however defined, can only be apprehended through a special inner experience.  First, this claim rests on the unspoken premise that the Divine does not and/or cannot act directly upon external reality.  If it could, then we could observe external reality by means of the scientific method, and note a pattern of observable events that are consistent with the existence and action of a particular sort of Divine agency, but not with atheistic naturalism or other conceptions of the Divine.  

On the other hand, if the true Divine nature can only be known through a revelation to the hidden recesses of the selves of certain lucky and special people, it follows that as far as external reality is concerned, the existence of the Divine is indistinguishable from its non-existence.  Universe can be expected to behave exactly as it would if gods (or at least the True God of your special revelation) did not exist.  When it comes to reality, and our anticipation of how reality will behave, your expectations must be the same as ours.  You must join us in expecting a naturalistic Universe that does not behave as if it had a God in it.  Or to encapsulate it in a single phrase:

You live in the same godless Universe we do.

Now, the second problem for your approach: you are far from the only person claiming to have had a special, mystical revelation of the Divine--and most, if not all of those other claimed revelations differ from yours in terms of the Deity or Deities they purport to reveal.  How can we know that you, and not Neale Donald Walsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_with_God) or the authors of A Course in Miracles, or Mohammad (the Qur'an), or Amazonian shamans, or any one of a wide range of mystic experiencers is The Right One?  

In accordance with what you've claimed, it is impossible even in principle to apply any sort of reality-test to claims of Divine revelation.  If it were possible, then reality-testing, rather than Divine revelation, would be the way to discover the truth about the Divine.  So, if we have had no mystical experiences of our own, we have no reason to trust yours over the myriads of other mystical experiences reported by other people, and reality will not validate yours over the others.  If we have had mystical experiences of our own, and if we want to accept some mystical experience as veridical, we should trust our own rather than yours.  After all, we would know our own experiences happened.  We'd have to take your word for it that yours did.

However, if it is true that no experimental or observational test made on external reality can be used to compare purported revelations (because the Divine putatively acts only within such revelations and is otherwise un-observable and undetectable), then we have no reason to take any of them seriously.  No matter which particular revelation one might want to believe, one must also believe that it is possible for all those other mystics to be deceived or in error, and there is no way, even in principle, to know that they are wrong and you are right.  At a minimum, all-but-one of the mystical revelations of the Divine are wrong.  So, in the case of any particular revelation, it is far more probable that it will be one of the vast mass of wrong ones, than that it will be the One True Revelation.  

And since you must agree with us that all other mystic revelations are false, there is no reason for us to accept your revelation as valid, even if we should happen to experience a revelation that agrees with yours.  After all, there's a billion Hindus in the world, and countless millions of them, especially their Yogis and Gurus, report mystical experiences that (to them) validate Hinduism.  Since they're all wrong, and they don't (and can't) know it, we likewise cannot know that we (and you) could not also be wrong.

Which is more likely?  That the Divine (however defined) would: A) Camouflage its existence so perfectly that no one could possibly know it was there, and B) then reveal itself to one person or a few persons;  Or, that the one person or few persons claiming to have received the true Divine revelation is/are lying or in error?  Since you would have to agree with us that the vast majority of people claiming mystical experiences of the Divine are lying or in error (to the extent that their revelations differ from yours), it follows that you are also far more likely to be lying or in error.  "But I just know it's true!" is something every mystic of every persuasion will tell you when it comes to their own experiences.  Just as inner conviction and felt certainty do not validate other people's revelations, they cannot validate yours.

To summarize:

1. Universe behaves exactly as it would if there were no supernatural Divine agents.[1]

2. At a minimum, nearly all people claiming mystical revelation are lying or in error.

3. There is no way, even in principle, to demonstrate that any purported experience of the Divine is true, even if the experience is one's own.[2]


A simple application of parsimony (Occam's Razor) to this means that claims of mystic revelation of the Divine should be rejected.

Don't try to convict God of sin or insanity because the world doesn't make sense to you, or doesn't seem to indicate that God could be good.

Actually, that's not where our disagreement lies.  The world does make sense to us.  Scientists can accurately model the behavior of reality from the sub-atomic scale all the way up to the expansion and gravitational behavior of the entire known Cosmos, all without ever having to employ a variable in their equations to account for the existence and/or action of any invisible supernatural beings.  Even you must agree with this, since your main claim is that "God" can only be known through subjective experience.
  
Debating the question of whether a particular god is "good" or not is merely an argument over the moral status of a fictional character, like debating whether or not Darth Vader ought to be considered the hero, or the villain of the Star Wars movies.
 1. The alternative is that it behaves as if some particular Divine agency exists, in which case we could learn of that Divine agency without requiring inner experience as you claim.
 2. If it were otherwise, how could there be so many deluded mystics?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: kcrady on October 09, 2010, 03:49:54 AM
Your statement, made in sincerity, is faith that [Isis] does exist and that you wish to know [Her].  You've opened the door, and [She] promised that if you do that [She] will come into your life.  As long as you keep that door open, [She] will let you know that [She] is there.  This may be soon, even today, or it could take a little time..don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen right away..as long as you are sincere it will happen.  Once it happens, and you know that [She] is real, seek after [Her]! With all your heart, make [Isis] the object of your desire.  [She] will guide you into all truth.

Therefore, if you don't end up believing in Isis, that's proof that you were insincere, therefore, you're a naughty, naughty boy/girl and thus deserving of punishment in the hereafter, right?  I shall eagerly await news of your conversion to the worship of Isis, so that when your heart is weighed against the Feather of Ma'at on the day of your Judgment, that you will not be found wanting and be turned over to the Devourer.  
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 09, 2010, 06:45:48 AM
...he rescued me from my unbelief.  I never would have turned to Him otherwise.  So my example alone proves that God is trying to save everyone.

Nope, I'm afraid it doesn't.  Let me show you why.

The vast majority of us here do not believe.
Your god has NOT rescued us from our unbelief. 
Without that rescue, we will never turn to Him otherwise.
So the fact that god has rescued YOU, but not ME (or US) is proof that your god is NOT trying to save everyone.

What your example shows is that your god has already picked and chosen the people he wants to save, and has already decided who will not be saved.

Your god, therefore, has already decided - before I was born - that he would not save me.  So he created me knowing that I would be destined for hell.  Your god sounds like a complete shit to me, TSS.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: TopolX on October 09, 2010, 08:04:00 AM
I have some serious questions for you Tothesea if you'll indulge me.

1. How do you know it truly was God contacting you, what did he actually do? Did he speak to you, write something down, give you a massage or project a vision? Or was it that you just had a feeling of unconditional love come over you?

2. Did you know that love (unconditional or otherwise) is no different biochemically from eating about 3kg of chocolate or drinking 3-4 pints of beer? Hence it doesn't take any kind of deity to contact you to feel these sorts of feelings.

3. Have you read what your so called loving God has supposedly done according to his handbook the Bible? 1.8m deaths and about 3 saved lives if that, not unconditionally loving in my book.

4. Why, if so loving, would your God not attempt to help all those in extreme situations, if He's all powerful surely it's no trouble and if He's loving why wouldn't He?

5. If He is trying to save everyone why is He doing such a crap job of it for a supreme being? I mean Bill Gates has saved more people from misery in 2 years than your God has in 2,000 years so why aren't we bowing down to him?

6. If He is trying to save the world, why has he not just contacted all the major powers and told them to dismantle their weapons and help the poorer countries? Is he afraid Putin & Obama will overpower him and let Jaibao kick him in the balls? But seriously, as my icon picture proves, weapons are up, charity is down, not very effective at His job is He this God of yours? 

7. How would you know if He wasn't just lying to you about his motives? Surely God can lie and create false feelings and anyone who says He wouldn't do is being ultracrepidarian as no mere mortal can understand God's motives, apparently.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: snkiesch on October 09, 2010, 08:06:22 AM
Your bible says you are wrong about God wanting everyone to believe in him. Read Romans 9 and Matthew 13:10
"The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:

Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."
You could also ask a Calvinist. They have just as much evidence as you do. None.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 09, 2010, 09:01:56 AM
Wow, Tothesea! When your God saw that you mistakenly believed things were getting worse, He knew how gullible you were and then began to spin His web of lies. How trapped you are, wrapped up in a cute little white bundle and hanging by a thread.

Good luck with that! Read and re-read these posts, that may help you to break free.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: generousgeorge on October 09, 2010, 09:36:34 AM
OH NOESSSS   :o    "The Feather of Ma'at"    I repent!!!!     :P
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 09, 2010, 10:08:09 AM
Lol@ KCrady...

I always say that a lot of theists that come here end up like a handicapped puppy getting stampeded by buffalos...

But to see KC pop up in this particular thread... It's like a Panzer tank vs. a hampster. Talk about overkill lol. I love it though. KC's stuff is always on point.  :)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: generousgeorge on October 09, 2010, 10:40:53 AM
If they were to come with any ammunition besides the Bible quotes,their Sunday School "indoctrination specialists" told them was the literal word of god, they would be better equpped to have meaningful dialogue.

Course it's kind of fun for huge Buffalo herds of Atheists to trample over little hamsters making the sign of the cross just before being turned into a damp spot on the prairie.  8)

What never ceases to amaze me is how the power of the indoctrination they receive so completely negates any rational capability they might have had if they had not been innoculated with the Christian Cult virus early and often. :o

It is shameful and evil. :-[
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 09, 2010, 10:49:59 AM
Lol@ KCrady...Talk about overkill lol. I love it though.

Great observation. I laughed hard.  :D
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Astreja on October 09, 2010, 12:47:43 PM
OH NOESSSS   :o   "The Feather of Ma'at"    I repent!!!!     :P

Ma'at rocks the house.

And I've always loved the story of how Isis reassembled Osiris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis) and brought Him back to life by singing to Him.  That is one hard-working and determined goddess -- A much better role model than Biblegod.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 09, 2010, 01:48:13 PM
Can you explain why the above substitutions would not be equally valid, if stated by someone who had "direct experience" of Allah, Brahman, or Osiris?

>snip<


There is only One God.  Logically, if the Universe was created, it all goes back to a single Source.  Whether there are many powers and principalities on Earth is not the question.  One God created all of it.  Whatever name you wish to use for Him, use it, for He is the Source of all of them.  What is more interesting is what God has told us He wishes to be called, which is Father.  That is what has been revealed onto me.  The truths I will impart to you about God here are from direct revelation, so please keep that in mind when you respond.

So you're just such a special little snowflake, that the omnimax Creator of a hundred billion galaxies tore through the dimensions of time and space--to end famine and AIDS in Africa?  To bring enlightenment to the whole world?  No--to reveal his presence to you, and you alone.  Yeah.  I'm sure he created the whole Cosmos just so that the person behind the Internet moniker "tothesea" could exist.  Right?

I never said or thought I was special above and beyond any other human being.  God loves everyone, I love God, I love everyone too.  I do not place myself above any other person.  I feel I am blessed for the revelation I have received and I share that freely.  Regardless of what His plans are, part of His plan was to reveal onto me His existence.  However, that doesn't make me special because He does it all the time.  If you weren't so insular in your views, and branched out your understanding, considering both sides equally, you would find abundant testimony from people all over the world from every faith and practice receiving revelation of Gods existence.  Of course that isn't evidence for a keen mind such as yours, who apparently needs the Creator of the Universe to dance a little jig in front of you for your amusement before you would believe. 

BTW, whichever deity this is that has revealed itself to you, it cannot be the deity of the Bible.  Here's why:

Quote
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

--Matthew 28:18-20

Quote
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

--Mark 16:15

Quote
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

--I Peter 3:15

According to your personal revelation, all of this is futile.  There is simply no point in talking to anyone about God, since only those (assuming there are any besides you, God's favorite magic unicorn) to whom God reveals himself directly through inner experience can have any chance of "getting it" anyway.  All of the sermons in the Gospels and Acts, all of the Epistles, all of the writings of the Church Fathers and the great theologians through the ages--vanity, all is vanity, useless gusts of words addressed to the mind, with which the real God has nothing to do.

I'll stop you right there.  You ever watch the movie Office Space?  Remember that board game the main characters friend designed?  "Jumping to conclusions"?  I think you could be a world champion.  First of all, just because I said that the only way to know God is by direct revelation doesn't mean that you cannot seek out God and find Him yourself, which millions of people all over the world find out every day..  The whole point of the gospel is to set you up, so to speak, to receive that revelation, which He does give abundantly.  Your childish understanding of the gospel really shines here.  Don't you know that when you are baptised by the Holy Spirit you have a personal relationship with the Creator?  What happened to me is nothing new;  the only thing that is different about it is that I wasn't looking for God.  That isn't even new, because again, if you ever bothered to consider both sides equally, which you are loathe to do of course since you would no longer be the center of the Universe, you would see that unbelievers receive visions quite frequently.


Of course, the relationship between you and the rest of Christendom is not really our problem.  We have no dog in that fight.  What is perhaps more relevant to us is your claim that the Divine, however defined, can only be apprehended through a special inner experience.  First, this claim rests on the unspoken premise that the Divine does not and/or cannot act directly upon external reality.  If it could, then we could observe external reality by means of the scientific method, and note a pattern of observable events that are consistent with the existence and action of a particular sort of Divine agency, but not with atheistic naturalism or other conceptions of the Divine. 


The Kingdom of God can be observed at any time, in any place.  The internal and the external is Gods domain, Himself being the Souce of all things, and the Source of all action.  If God wanted to let Himself be proven by instruments, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.  He prefers to stay behind the scenes and let humanity come to its own conclusions.  You miss the point, trying to test reality for God when your life itself is the test.  Right now I have an A+ and you have an F.  You might want to consult some crib notes because you are not prepared for the final exam.

On the other hand, if the true Divine nature can only be known through a revelation to the hidden recesses of the selves of certain lucky and special people, it follows that as far as external reality is concerned, the existence of the Divine is indistinguishable from its non-existence.  Universe can be expected to behave exactly as it would if gods (or at least the True God of your special revelation) did not exist.  When it comes to reality, and our anticipation of how reality will behave, your expectations must be the same as ours.  You must join us in expecting a naturalistic Universe that does not behave as if it had a God in it.  Or to encapsulate it in a single phrase:

You live in the same godless Universe we do.


It has nothing to do with luck or being special.  It is all part of a grander design which science is unable to observe.  A servant does not know his masters business.  If he did, he would no longer be a servant.  I need not join your nihilistic understanding and your futile ways, which all lead to death (..one of us..one of us..).  I worship the God of the living, not the dead, and unless you know Him, you have no life in you, and will perish with all of your outmoded ways.  The ways of Sin will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, so there will be nothing for you there.  You're simply playing for the wrong team.

Now, the second problem for your approach: you are far from the only person claiming to have had a special, mystical revelation of the Divine--and most, if not all of those other claimed revelations differ from yours in terms of the Deity or Deities they purport to reveal.  How can we know that you, and not Neale Donald Walsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_with_God) or the authors of A Course in Miracles, or Mohammad (the Qur'an), or Amazonian shamans, or any one of a wide range of mystic experiencers is The Right One?   

In accordance with what you've claimed, it is impossible even in principle to apply any sort of reality-test to claims of Divine revelation.  If it were possible, then reality-testing, rather than Divine revelation, would be the way to discover the truth about the Divine.  So, if we have had no mystical experiences of our own, we have no reason to trust yours over the myriads of other mystical experiences reported by other people, and reality will not validate yours over the others.  If we have had mystical experiences of our own, and if we want to accept some mystical experience as veridical, we should trust our own rather than yours.  After all, we would know our own experiences happened.  We'd have to take your word for it that yours did.


It's not a problem at all.  You notice that I am not saying, follow me to know my God.  I am not even saying, know this specific God and read this material.  I am saying, open yourself to the possibility that God exists, and seek Him out.  I know because of my experience, that the Creator is merciful and unconditionally loving, and will reveal Himself to anyone who asks sincerely and with an open heart.  What foolishness it is to close that door;  even you must admit that human knowledge is extremely limited, and even more limited than that, are our perceptual faculties.  What a human being can discern at any given time does not measure up to the enormity of what is going on in the moment, regardless of how many definitions and labels man tries to abstract reality with.  There is something that is always beyond any words, that is God, which cannot be placed into a convenient little box for study and dissection.  You don't have to take my word for it.  You can experience it directly, first hand, at any time, once you give up the idea that you are qualified to rule out the Creators existence, and open yourself up to the possibility that you might be wrong;  moreover, that you would want to know that Creator, if He did in fact exist.


However, if it is true that no experimental or observational test made on external reality can be used to compare purported revelations (because the Divine putatively acts only within such revelations and is otherwise un-observable and undetectable), then we have no reason to take any of them seriously.  No matter which particular revelation one might want to believe, one must also believe that it is possible for all those other mystics to be deceived or in error, and there is no way, even in principle, to know that they are wrong and you are right.  At a minimum, all-but-one of the mystical revelations of the Divine are wrong.  So, in the case of any particular revelation, it is far more probable that it will be one of the vast mass of wrong ones, than that it will be the One True Revelation. 

And since you must agree with us that all other mystic revelations are false, there is no reason for us to accept your revelation as valid, even if we should happen to experience a revelation that agrees with yours.  After all, there's a billion Hindus in the world, and countless millions of them, especially their Yogis and Gurus, report mystical experiences that (to them) validate Hinduism.  Since they're all wrong, and they don't (and can't) know it, we likewise cannot know that we (and you) could not also be wrong.


Just because some people are misled in their beliefs, doesn't mean that there is no real truth out there.  Man used to think the Earth was flat..did that mean the Earth wasn't round?  The conclusions you keep jumping to are really elementary errors of logic.  If you knew my God, then you would believe me, it's as simple as that.  Since you don't, and are trapped in ignorance and error, and you reject it as foolishness.  The truth stands on its own though, and as you dance around it, it's easy to pick apart your colossal mistakes of judgment and reason.  I don't need to have my experiences validated, nor does God have any need to be proven by scientists.  What would be the point?  If God wanted everyone to know unequivicably that He does exist He would simply just make an appearance.  There is no point in any logical scenario that God will be "proven" by science.  It's ridiculous.  It belies your lack of understanding of the ways and purposes of the Creator.  In any case as I keep saying, there is no need for anyones experience of God to be validated in order for belief to dawn.  You can know it for yourself without needing anyone else or to be informed by any other source. 

Which is more likely?  That the Divine (however defined) would: A) Camouflage its existence so perfectly that no one could possibly know it was there, and B) then reveal itself to one person or a few persons;  Or, that the one person or few persons claiming to have received the true Divine revelation is/are lying or in error?  Since you would have to agree with us that the vast majority of people claiming mystical experiences of the Divine are lying or in error (to the extent that their revelations differ from yours), it follows that you are also far more likely to be lying or in error.  "But I just know it's true!" is something every mystic of every persuasion will tell you when it comes to their own experiences.  Just as inner conviction and felt certainty do not validate other people's revelations, they cannot validate yours.

Whatever is more likely in your eyes, or by the weights and chains and levers you attach to the issue for your limited comprehension of the truth, again doesn't amount to a hill of beans.  It doesn't matter what we believe about God;  God is, and His existence proceeds all action in the Universe.  What He wants and understands is what is important, and is the Source of what happens here.  To be ignorant of that is to be completely in the dark.  You can weigh the issue any way you like to say that I am wrong, but the simple fact is that just like you cannot disprove Gods existence, you cannot rule out my experience either.  How likely it is in your eyes doesn't matter, as I have told you that you can know it for yourself.  Whether you lack the courage or not is a completely different issue.

To summarize:

1. Universe behaves exactly as it would if there were no supernatural Divine agents.[1]

2. At a minimum, nearly all people claiming mystical revelation are lying or in error.

3. There is no way, even in principle, to demonstrate that any purported experience of the Divine is true, even if the experience is one's own.[2]


A simple application of parsimony (Occam's Razor) to this means that claims of mystic revelation of the Divine should be rejected.


To summarize, I am speaking directly from my experience of the Creator of the Universe.  My testimony is true.  He does exist.  You can never prove otherwise.  You also don't have to.  You could find out for yourself.  I have told you how to do that.  If yours was truly a logical mind, you would consider both sides equally.  Science, in all of its glory, considers how the Universe came to be as the primary question of existence.  The question of God is the primary question, as evidence by our history, philosophy, culture, religion, and pretty much every other system of thinking and discerning reality.  But you, the mighty KC, can dismiss it in just a few paragraphs.  It's amazing to see how anyone could blind themselves so thoroughly.  Consider both sides equally, and maybe you stumble upon the truth some day.

Actually, that's not where our disagreement lies.  The world does make sense to us.  Scientists can accurately model the behavior of reality from the sub-atomic scale all the way up to the expansion and gravitational behavior of the entire known Cosmos, all without ever having to employ a variable in their equations to account for the existence and/or action of any invisible supernatural beings.  Even you must agree with this, since your main claim is that "God" can only be known through subjective experience.
 
Debating the question of whether a particular god is "good" or not is merely an argument over the moral status of a fictional character, like debating whether or not Darth Vader ought to be considered the hero, or the villain of the Star Wars movies.


The world makes sense to you?  You mean science explains everything?  What about the mind? Consciousness?  Emotions?  A million other things which are integral to life as we know it?  Science doesn't explain much beyond how to fit slot A into groove B.  Concerning your debate and fictional characters, it is better to consider whether anything is "good" at all.  By definition, only God *could* be good.  Chew on that one.

tothesea
 1. The alternative is that it behaves as if some particular Divine agency exists, in which case we could learn of that Divine agency without requiring inner experience as you claim.
 2. If it were otherwise, how could there be so many deluded mystics?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pamindfw on October 09, 2010, 02:03:59 PM
^^^ Sorry, I think you're deluded.  How do you know you're not?  You were feeling bad about the world, maybe a little fear and anxiety added in, and believing a magical god/creator is on your side makes you feel better.  I'm sure you want to be a good person.  Most of us do.  Believing in this stuff does not make you a better person.  You can do that yourself.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 09, 2010, 02:08:47 PM
You can weigh the issue any way you like to say that I am wrong, but the simple fact is that just like you cannot disprove Gods existence,

I agree, god cannot be disproven, but he also cannot be proven.

Quote
you cannot rule out my experience either.

yes we can. Your experience means completely nothing to us. I for one don't care about someone else's testimony if I haven't experienced it myself. So your story, as important as it is to you, means absolutely nothing to me. I don't care about how great of a life god has given you. You are claiming you once were an atheist and god came to you without you seeking him. By that logic he should do that to me and he hasn't[1]

Quote
My testimony is true.  He does exist.

I hate to break it to you but personal testimony isn't going to win any souls to Christ here. We've heard all you have to say many times. It gets old and repetitive. It's nothing new to us, and personal testimony hasn't gotten very far.

It's only true in your mind, love. Those in Jonestown had personal testimony that Jim Jones saved them; Charles Manson's family had personal testimony that Manson saved them. Same with the church of Scientology and every other cult out there. The only reason your testimony seems true is because you refuse to look outside of your little box at reality.

Quote
You can never prove otherwise.

...and this just shows your stubbornness. What's your point here?

 1. And I know what you are going to say. "Em, you claimed you were a christian" Well, you are right. I was a real Christian with strong faith at one point. What I wrote is coming from the point of view of an atheist.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gordon Freeman on October 09, 2010, 02:21:26 PM
tothesea, you never really clarified how your god is unconditionally loving yet would send you to hell if you don't obey. Do you know how properly to use "IF" statement? Every programmer knows it. IF, THEN, ELSE statements are conditional. Your god only saves IF you accept him as your savor. You see, I as a human don't love unconditionally, but I would never send my cats to hell even if they left my house and went to another person. I would not run over them by car if I saw them on the street. I would welcome them into my yard every time they came and I would offer them food and shelter.

Yes, I would throw them out if they peed in my house (but even that I didn't do that last time), but that's just because I can't explain them that I don't want them to pee. I am trying to teach my cats to ask to go out when they need to pee and make some crap, but when my cat peed in the house, I simply cleaned after it and I didn't throw it out. Well, I tried to let my cat knows that I don't want that to happen again, but hey, I love my cat and I don't want to hurt it or do something bad to it even if it doesn't do all I want it to do. After all, I am just a human: not omnipotent, not all knowing, not unconditionally loving and such. Yet, I show more love for cats than your god shows for people. I would (almost) never let an animal die if I could do something to save it from death. When I say almost never, it means if I had to choose between a human and an animal or if it is not a mosquito or a fly, or if I am not starving and chickens are nearby, I would do all I could to save an animal.

You said that your god makes a rain falling on just and unjust. I laugh at this. Of course he does, he can't make it different!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 09, 2010, 02:29:57 PM
tothesea,

Can you please go back to this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16089.msg361066#msg361066) and attribute names to those you're replying to.

Moderator_020 has already spoken to you about using the quoting function in this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16089.msg360606#msg360606).


After that, I'd like an answer to this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16089.msg360968#msg360968) from me.

Thanks.


Eleven.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gordon Freeman on October 09, 2010, 03:00:42 PM
Unconditional love, you say...

I post this video, even it has nothing to do with this thread, but it show how excited is a person who takes first steps after 180years with eLEGS. If I could make this person walk and bring her joy of walking I would do that. But your god, or any other god doesn't do anything about it. Unconditional love, you say? Oh, that makes me mad, very mad and angry.

Fast forward to 2:00 and listen very carefully what she says and how she says it. Watch her face and smile. And don't thank god that she made few steps. Thank scientists!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcM0ruq28dc[/youtube]
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: nogodsforme on October 09, 2010, 05:04:05 PM
^^^^As a person who was in a wheelchair for a while, this is the coolest thing I have seen in a long time. You religious folks can keep on waiting for the milk jug of your choice to grant your wishes. We, instead, will bow down before the cute, science-geek Euro-person with amazing chisleled cheekbones. Brilliant is the new sexy! He had me at Achtung! Although he is no Robert Downey, Jr., his invention is pretty darn close to the Iron Man suit! :D
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gordon Freeman on October 09, 2010, 05:33:00 PM
This is not a perfect technology, but if a person in a wheelchair is so happy about using it, it is priceless. It just makes me angry when I think that there will be christians who will give credits to their god for this.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Str82Hell on October 09, 2010, 05:42:10 PM
This is not a perfect technology, but if a person in a wheelchair is so happy about using it, it is priceless. It just makes me angry when I think that there will be christians who will give credits to their god for this.
Tomorrow it will be perfect and the day after tomorrow unnecessary.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 09, 2010, 05:48:33 PM
That is a great video and a great device. It also angers me when people thank god and give him credit for such discoveries. Whether it's the eleg, prosthetics, chemotherapy or any other medical discovery. When the mailbag was up and running many people wrote in claiming that god has healed amputees by giving them prosthetics. Even though they clearly don't understand the point of the question if god is responsible why did he wait so long for these discoveries to be discovered? Why did he wait so long for the discovery of electricity and computers and the flu vaccination and cancer treatment? If god does exist why didn't he make those technologies available to Adam and Eve when they got banished from the garden? Why make it so civilization has to discover these technologies if he so loves the world that he gave his only begotten son?

A friend of mine who happens to be a very strong and devout christian just got a tumor removed from her brain. Prior to her surgery she prayed for god to protect her, which I had no major problem, but right after surgery she thanked god for protection. It's kind of sad to not thank the doctors who spend something like 10 years in med school, long hours at work and constantly on call when at home get thanked only after some imaginary man in the sky, if they get thanked at all.

It may not be perfect technology but I am excited to see the path this technology takes in the future.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_012 on October 09, 2010, 06:26:57 PM
tothesea, I have a question for you. Why did you edit your OP to almost the same thing that you wrote in comment #94? Doing so disrupts the flow of the first couple of pages, and the comments that were raised against your original OP.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 09, 2010, 06:28:54 PM
^^^Yeah that really confused me until I remembered the Modify function.

Put it back the way it was please!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Tykster on October 09, 2010, 06:46:05 PM
I don't lie, about anything, except....



 &)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 09, 2010, 07:52:37 PM
Unconditional love, you say...

I post this video, even it has nothing to do with this thread, but it show how excited is a person who takes first steps after 180years with eLEGS. If I could make this person walk and bring her joy of walking I would do that. But your god, or any other god doesn't do anything about it. Unconditional love, you say? Oh, that makes me mad, very mad and angry.

Fast forward to 2:00 and listen very carefully what she says and how she says it. Watch her face and smile. And don't thank god that she made few steps. Thank scientists!

[modbreak]Reposting of youtube clip removed[/modbreak]

I notice you and others say your God, believe it or not he is your God,  He will still judge you, You can tell him one day that he is not your God and he can't   judge you and and he will tell you in so many words to watch him. God loves every one and he wants us to decide for yourself if we will follow him, and he is not cruel, satan is the cruel one and he was let loose to do his damage, and he is doing a good job of it. God loves you and he does not want to send anyone one to hell, this is the last thing he wants to do. He told us what would happen if we don't believe, the rest is up to the individual, there fore you are sending your self to hell not him. When growing up did your mother tell you that if you did not listen to her that there would be consequences?
She still loved you but there were sometimes harsh punishments. Hell is the ultimate punishment, so much more to lose. So "your god" comment sand unbelief  won't exclude you from anything
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 09, 2010, 07:56:38 PM
So yahweh is not, and, has never been, all-knowing.

Gotcha. Thnx.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 09, 2010, 07:57:48 PM
Put it back the way it was please!
Unfortunately the staff can't do that. However, tothesea is now in the 'Edit Restricted' membergroup and can no longer edit or delete his posts until we return that privilege to him.


Eleven.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Astreja on October 09, 2010, 09:16:57 PM
I notice you and others say your God, believe it or not he is your God...

Nope.  No evidence that it even exists, and plenty of evidence that the mythical being described in the Bible is simply too stupid to warrant the title 'god.'

Quote
Satan is the cruel one and he was let loose to do his damage... {emphasis Mine}

"Let loose" by your god, apparently.

Quote
God loves you and he does not want to send anyone one to hell, this is the last thing he wants to do.

And yet your alleged god supposedly created hell, on purpose.

I am *not* impressed.

Quote
He told us what would happen if we don't believe, the rest is up to the individual, there fore you are sending your self to hell not him.

This is a pathetic mindf%ck regularly used by Christians who cannot reconcile their "loving" god with the infinite barbarity and atrocity of even one sentient being being tortured for eternity.

Your god supposedly has 100% of the power and authority.  It therefore automatically bears 100% of the responsibility for all the suffering in your mythical hell, and there's nothing you can do to excuse it away.

Admit it, ibelieveinGod:  You, yourself are deliberately worshipping a torturer-god, and I will go out on a limb here and assume that you also believe in substitutionary atonement.  That means that you have chosen to let someone else die in your place.

Explain to Me how this myth of yours makes you a better person, rather than a deluded and morally bankrupt puppet whom I would not trust to clean My cats' litter boxes.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 09, 2010, 09:33:26 PM
I notice you and others say your God, believe it or not he is your God,  

No, "he" is not. You are saying this to convince yourself. Would it have any effect on you if an ancient Roman told you that your god was Jupiter? How about if a Muslim told you that Allah was your god?

Hell, I'll do it right now. I notice you say your god is my god. Believe it or not, your god is Bugs Bunny.

Does that move you?

He will still judge you,

No, you and your fellow nutbars will judge us. That's about as far as it goes, and has ever gone.

You can tell him one day that he is not your God and he can't   judge you and and he will tell you in so many words to watch him.

Uh-huh. Whatever helps you sleep at night sparky. Do you realize that even if your god was real (and it most certainly is not), nobody here would want anything to do with it? It's a barbaric, bloodthirsty monster that you worship.

Now, do you see anything fundamentally retarded about the following:

God loves every one
satan is the cruel one and he was let loose to do his damage,


Your magical invisible space fairy CREATED an incarnation of cruelty and evil to reek havoc on the world?

In what backwards ass parallel universe does this constitute anything remotely "loving"? It's like saying that you love your kids, and then you sick a pack of rabid dogs on them. What the hell is wrong with you man? "Oh, *I'M* not the evil one. The DOGS are!!!"

Give me a BREAK.  :D

Face it. You worship an evil god. Whatever loopholes you create to justify it, whatever mental gymnastics you perform to wrap your head around it, that's the bottom line. You believe everything came from this god. Erego, so did cruelty and evil. Yet you somehow can call this fictional character ALL LOVING because A.)You've been told he is by a 1,500 year old book of Jewish myths, and by people you know and trust, and B.)You have to have a scapegoat to blame all life's messed up stuff on. Helllllloooo? Your incarnation of evil COMES from your god! It's the exact same culpability as somebody hiring a hitman rather than do the killing themselves.

I mean damn. Read the old testament sometime! If sending bears to kill 42 kids for calling a preacher "bald head" isn't evil to you, what is!?

God loves you and he does not want to send anyone one to hell, this is the last thing he wants to do.

I thought your god was supposed to be all-powerfull? How can it not get what it wants? According to your religion, anywhere from 50 - 98% of the human race goes to hell. Do you think this god of yours could have a higher success rate?

He told us what would happen if we don't believe, the rest is up to the individual, there fore you are sending your self to hell not him.

First off, no, no god's ever told me anything. I've heard a lot of (generally undereducated and ignorant) HUMANS tell me what I have to do, based on a tremendously flawed, proveably contradictory mess of an ancient text full of dragons and unicorns and talking goats and snakes and a whole MESS of straight-up disgusting behavior. I've certainly never heard a GOD tell me anything. Not even a "Hi! How ya doin?"

2nd, if we pretend your magical murderbook is actually true, I'm not sending myself to hell. I didn't make the rules, did I? No. Your "all-loving" god did. And then it supposedly allowed the "free-will" choice of A.)Believe in me despite the complete and utter lack of evidence or B.)Suffer ETERNALLY and INFINITELY. That's not free will. That's a guy holding a gun to your head and offering you the "choice" of blowing him or getting shot in the face. Forever.

Why is that above all things, your god places the highest value on believing something without evidence? Why not on something more quantifiable, like good deeds, or donations to charity, or how many pushups you can do? Why build our brains in such a manner that we naturally don't accept things without evidence? Answer: It didn't. Your god doesn't exist. Your religion places maximum emphasis on belief in Yahweh because the clergy knows that without that, everything else falls apart. Without the belief, the religion is powerless. It can't lobby politiians effectively. It can't collect money. It can't get you to feel guilty and come to them for absolution.

Your religion values faith above all things because without faith, the religion is effectively neutered and doomed to extinction. This is all just a time-tested method of the clergy controlling your behavior in exchange for a little slice of comfort when it comes to the subject of death and justice.

Wake UP man. It's the 21st century. You and your kind have been spouting this s**t off for thousands of years, and it was done for thousands of years before the Jews slapped together your holybook and left half of it on the editing room floor. It was just done with different gods.  You've voluntarily made yourself a mental slave to a demonstratably false and logically laughable ancient manuscript. It's embarassing, to yourself, and to the entire human race.


 When growing up did your mother tell you that if you did not listen to her that there would be consequences?
She still loved you but there were sometimes harsh punishments. g

Right. But you know what? If she told me when I was 3 years old, "Don't eat cookies before dinner", and, not having any idea what right or wrong was, I ate a cookie, she didn't kick me out of the house buck naked in the middle of winter, break my hands and feet with a hammer, spray me with wolf bait and say "You're never allowed back to this house. And neither are your children, or your children's children, or anybody they'll ever know."

Which is exactly what your boogieman of a god did to Adam and Eve, who's ancestors have been fucked generation after generation because they did something "bad" before they even had the ability to comprehend what good or bad WAS.

Hell is the ultimate punishment, so much more to lose. So "your god" comment sand unbelief  won't exclude you from anything

Do you feel better now that you got that out of your system? Do you really think something this limp-wristed and unsupportable is actually going to make ANY impact on anybody here? You must have an awfully high opinion of yourself. This is like Chick-tract, 3rd grade indoctrination Christian conversion tactics your spouting off here. So because YOU, some random clump of text on the internet, makes a statement in the form of a fact, that's it? We're just supposed to be shocked into some great revelation or something?

You just don't realize how pathetic this is. You offer literally NOTHING substantial in your post. You offer no compelling arguement. You show no sign of anything resembling critical thinking. You admittingly worship a primtive and ugly desert deity from ancient Palastine... One that encourages rape, murder, genocide, child killing... And not only do you DEFEND this idea, you've been indoctrinated to the point that you've twisted your brain into a pretzel in order to actually BELIEVE that this fictional super villian really LOVES you, despite all the atrocities it allows to happen.

I pity you. I really, really do. I wish you could step outside of yourself and see how screwed up you really are as a person. But you won't. Your religion has had thousands of years to make loophole after loophole to excuse all the things that are obviously wrong with it. Combined with humanity's natural ability to justify and rationalize things, you have no chance to escape. You've devoted to much time and energy and emotion into the ideas, and to question them now would mean admitting that you've spent the majority of your life as a judgemental, preachy asshole who's voluntarily crippled your intellect and ability to reason... And mark my words, if there WAS a god, your intellect and ability to reason would be the "gift" to be celebrated... NOT your ability to believe what other people tell you without evidence.

Your post was just sad. Sad, sad, sad. I suggest you do a little reading around the forum before you start preaching at people. You'd save yourself a lot of time when you realize we've heard it all before, and that this particular post of yours was about as pathetic and uncompelling as you can get without just straight up quoting scripture at us.

Sigh. You poor bastard.  :(
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Asmoday on October 09, 2010, 09:34:45 PM
I notice you and others say your God, believe it or not he is your God,  He will still judge you, You can tell him one day that he is not your God and he can't   judge you and and he will tell you in so many words to watch him.
Replace "God" in this short paragraph with Allah, Vishnu or any other deity you don't believe in. Then think about why this argument would be unconvincing for yourself if someone said it to you.

Once you've done that you know why this argument carries as much weight as if you had spoken about wet toast instead.

Quote
God loves every one and he wants us to decide for yourself if we will follow him, and he is not cruel, satan is the cruel one and he was let loose to do his damage, and he is doing a good job of it.
It seems you missed a few important bits here.

1) No matter how often you say something else, you can't change the fact that the god you believe in says "Believe in me or be tortured forever."
That has nothing to do with love or wanting us to decide for ourselves.

2) If you think, that sending somebody to everlasting torture because they don't believe in you is not cruel, then you should get your moral compass checked.

3) You say Satan is cruel and God isn't. Yet at the same time you say Satan was "let loose." If God was not cruel, why would he let Satan loose?

Quote
God loves you and he does not want to send anyone one to hell, this is the last thing he wants to do.
God is supposed to be the omnipotent creator of everything, is he not?

So if sending people to hell is the last thing he wants to do, why does he do it anyway?

Quote
He told us what would happen if we don't believe, the rest is up to the individual, there fore you are sending your self to hell not him.
Sorry, but you are wrong.

According to the bible it's not up to the individual but to God alone. Even before someone is born he has already decided if that person will go to heaven or hell. According to the bible your fate is already decided before you are born. When somebody goes to hell for disbelieving in God, it's because God decided to send that person to hell long before that person was even born.


Quote
When growing up did your mother tell you that if you did not listen to her that there would be consequences?
She still loved you but there were sometimes harsh punishments. Hell is the ultimate punishment, so much more to lose.
That comparison doesn't work that way.

To make it work I'd have to assume you never knew or saw your mother; all you had was an old letter written by a person claiming to speak for your mother, telling you that she loves you and if you don't do what that person wrote in the letter she'd  torture you for the rest of your life.


Quote
So "your god" comment sand unbelief  won't exclude you from anything
Just like your clearly foolish belief in God and Jesus won't exclude you from your punishment when you die and find yourself in front of Quetzalcoatl.

See how that works?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 09, 2010, 09:55:17 PM
Hmm... Three completely different people, with literally no dogma or standardized "official" material between them to go to for responses (besides reality)... The only shared qualifiers being a lack of belief in gods and an abundance of lucidity and critical thought... And we all come up with more or less similar points, plus or minus some juicy tidbits here and there.

You'd think this would be a pretty good indicator that we're onto something with such a solid baseline for common sense and honest, no bullshit thinking.

But no, I'm sure it's just the work of the devil. Damn devil, clonin' R brains n' junk.  &)

Pretty impressive though, I gotta say. If Christians saw eye to eye to such a degree, they might actually be able to present something resembling a unified front against all the EVUHL heathens.  :D

edit: Reading over the last 3 posts again, I have to laugh. It's even a little embarassing. The source material we're arguing against is so 2-dimensional and goofy... And yet even with *3* of us pointing out the painfully obvious problems with it, I'm willing to bet it won't make a lick of difference. Sigh. First I laugh, now I think I might cry a little lol.

Meh. Naaah. I think I'm gonna go kill some zombies. That's what I'm a-gonna do. 'Night all!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 09, 2010, 11:44:26 PM
I notice you and others say your God, believe it or not he is your God,  He will still judge you, You can tell him one day that he is not your God and he can't   judge you and and he will tell you in so many words to watch him.

He is no god of mine. Even if he is real I don't want him to be my god because of how much of a cruel monster he is. A lake of fire for eternity sounds more pleasant than bowing down to him. but to me, an atheist, he isn't my god, just like Allah isn't your god. If you were to have a discussion with a Muslim you'd probably say "your god". But to make it easier, put yourself in our shoes, then you can see why he's your god.

No one is going to judge us. When we die we will rot in the ground.

Quote
and he is not cruel, satan is the cruel one and he was let loose to do his damage, and he is doing a good job of it.

Obviously you have a high standard for what constitutes cruel, yet you claim Satan is cruel. First of all what does your god do to take care of Satan. Absolutely nothing. Your god drowned the entire world except for Noah and his family. Your god orders the death by stoning of homosexuals, those that work on the sabbath day, disobedient children, etc. Your god is remaining hidden and doing so is causing many people to even doubt his existence. If your god is real then he is doing absolutely nothing to prove himself to anyone.

There are two choices we can take. One path is to not believe in this god because there is no evidence to even suggest he and his son are real, or we can blindly believe him. I'd rather not believe in something blindly. It go where the evidence leads me and it's not the atheists fault that the evidence points so strongly to not believing in god. Your god hidden from view. It's not our fault we don't believe in him, free will or not.

Your god can easily pop out of nowhere, proclaim he is god and we still wouldn't need to believe in him. So him revealing himself to all of humanity wont violate his idea of free will, so why does he choose to be hidden?

Quote
this is the last thing he wants to do. He told us what would happen if we don't believe, the rest is up to the individual, there fore you are sending your self to hell not him.

And this is it - Believe. The bible told us what to believe, and all the stories in the bible are so unbelievable, why should anyone believe in it.

Quote
When growing up did your mother tell you that if you did not listen to her that there would be consequences?

She still loved you but there were sometimes harsh punishments. Hell is the ultimate punishment, so much more to lose. So "your god" comment sand unbelief  won't exclude you from anything

Well, yes she did. But my mother would never send me to burn in hell for not doing the dishes or cleaning my room when I was younger.

I don't respect your god because of his idea of hell being the "final punishment" It doesn't fit the crime in a lot of situations. Assuming hell is real, when Charles Manson dies he is going to hell if he doesn't repent and turn to Jesus, and when someone who stole bread for a meal is also going to hell, rubbing elbows with the most cruel of all monsters. The punishment is a bit extreme in a lot of cases.

Respect is to be earned, not given based on status. So far your god has not earned my respect because your god is responsible for so many atrocities. First, the flood. He didn't give a single person the chance to repent. Second, he is too busy touching tothesea to even care about the children who are starving to death and dying every single day because of a lack of nourishment. And third, well he really messed up this world he seems to love so dearly. Our own solar system is going to be destroyed in a few million years, that's if all the volcanoes and earthquakes, or disease, or wars don't destory us first. Your god has really messed up this creation he so loves. I hope we are only a prototype because to quote George Carlin "results like these don't belong on the resume of a supreme being"
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 10, 2010, 12:34:03 AM
@RaymondKHessel

For one thing I did not call anyone a name, since you said I was a nut bar, [call me what ever, I dont care] at least I know what type of person I am dealing with.  
 I only feel sorry for you, God is real no matter what, I think we remind you that if we are right, you've got problems Otherwise why do you and others get there hackles up. I think it is sad and funny, what we believe should not have any impact on you, what you just said doesn't bother me, that is your opinion, and it is your right.  I thought I might get some half way intelligent argument, that was to much to hope for. When you start name calling that just show what kind of person you are. I won't waste any more of my time.

[modbreak]Please read the Quoting FAQ.  (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0)  [/modbreak]
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 10, 2010, 12:41:30 AM
@Emily

Respect for God is between you and Him then tell all this to him, when you face him, and you will.

[modbreak] Please read the Quoting FAQ (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0). There is no need to quote an entire post, especially if only to give a short reply.[/modbreak]
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 10, 2010, 12:41:46 AM
I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst. The love and connection I felt with it seemed to be diminishing rapidly. From everything I had observed, the world was on a course of self-destruction.  People were growing unhappier, more detached and judgmental by the minute. I asked myself what I could do, if anything.

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I had to do something.  I decided that I would try to do something to save it.  Yes, I know how it sounds, but that was my thinking.

It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there.  He let me know that He was there, had always been there, that He loved me, and that I would be working for Him for now on.

I was open to the possibility of God existing, but not unless it was proven to me, and I would never have cracked open a bible to seek it out.  I wasn't looking for God at all.  God tapped me on the shoulder by His own volition.  He revealed himself to me, despite the fact that I was an unbeliever.

Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all.  You can't conceive of Him.  It seems like nonsense.  There is a lot more going on in reality though than what you can see.  From what I have witnessed, there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period.  They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time.  That time for many of you may never come

The point is, you can come up with the most solid logical proof, but this has nothing to do with your arguments or understanding.  I wasn't religious, knew nothing about the bible, jesus or anything God related.

Friends - the above is not the entirety of tothesea's OP....but it is the gist of it - at least, the bits we all found important enough to reply to!  It's all in order, as memory serves - maybe the mods would like to copy it back into the OP position?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 10, 2010, 12:46:09 AM
Respect is to be earned, not given based on status. So far your god has not earned my respect because your god is responsible for so many atrocities. First, the flood. He didn't give a single person the chance to repent. Second, he is too busy touching tothesea to even care about the children who are starving to death and dying every single day because of a lack of nourishment. And third, well he really messed up this world he seems to love so dearly. Our own solar system is going to be destroyed in a few million years, that's if all the volcanoes and earthquakes, or disease, or wars don't destory us first. Your god has really messed up this creation he so loves. I hope we are only a prototype because to quote George Carlin "results like these don't belong on the resume of a supreme being"

Respect for God is between you and Him then tell all this to him, when you face him, and you will.

Rest assured, I will.  I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with Emily and tell the bully just what I think of him.  That "might does not make right."  That respect is earned, not demanded with threats and passive-agressive whining.

Oh, he'll then send me to hell, because he is a pathetic bully who cannot stand to be told he is wrong, and he'll take great pleasure in it - as will all the little Christians hiding behind his skirts, too scared to challenge him, who "love" him because they fear what he will do to them if they ever dare question.

You may call that love.  Many abused partners and children do.

And, BTW - learn to use quotes properly: you don't need to copy EVERYTHING to make a one line response.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 10, 2010, 12:54:12 AM
I think we remind you that if we are right, you've got problems
Likewise we remind YOu that if WE are right, then YOU'VE got severe mental and social problems.


Otherwise why do you and others get there hackles up. I think it is sad and funny, what we believe should not have any impact on you.....

You're right - it shouldn't.  But sadly your deluded beliefs force their way into the law, into the classroom, into our lives, and THAT is why we oppose them.  If your beliefs never left your living rooms, then none of us, I assure you, would have a problem.  But your beliefs have made people's lives a misery for centuries, and continue to do so.

The brights are gradually forcing back the ignorance of the supers, and we've come a long way.  But your narrow zealotry (manifested in a "believe in my loving god or BURN for all eternity") is still around, still forcing its way from your life into mine, and the lives of those I love. 

THAT is why our "hackles are up".  And that is why they'll stay up, until you take your goat-herder religion back inside your homes and churches and stop trying to force it on the rest of the world.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_012 on October 10, 2010, 01:00:46 AM
IbelieveinGod, welcome to the forum. I have modified some of your posts. Please take the time to read the Quoting FAQ (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0). There is no need to quote an entire post when giving a short reply. If you wish to quote multiple points that use said in a comment then the quote function is wonder for that, but for one liners, or short paragraphs a simple '@' followed by the user you'd like to reply too is sometimes enough. The Quoting FAQ goes into detail about how to quote.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 10, 2010, 01:10:36 AM
ibelieveingod,

Since you ignored the many points of valid criticism against your assertions, I suppose that means you can't or won't reasonably respond.

If you can't, why do you still hold those ridiculous positions? If you won't, then why are you here?

Does your church consider it blasphemy or heresy that you believe your deity is not all knowing?

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 10, 2010, 01:13:01 AM
Respect for God is between you and Him then tell all this to him, when you face him, and you will.

Oh, I will tell him all of what I said, and more. I'll say, "Hey god. You can't blame me for not believing in you. You did stay very much hidden from your creation" amongst other things. Then I'll give him the finger.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: natlegend on October 10, 2010, 02:18:23 AM
Hi there ibelieveinGod, can you please show me an example of how your god is 'all loving'? Thanks.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: kcrady on October 10, 2010, 04:34:01 AM
Can you explain why the above substitutions would not be equally valid, if stated by someone who had "direct experience" of Allah, Brahman, or Osiris?

>snip<


There is only One God.  Logically, if the Universe was created, it all goes back to a single Source.

Yeah.  If airplanes were created, logically they must have had one inventor.  The Wright Brothers.  Oops.  But so what?  You're avoiding the point.  Why would the substitutions I made not be equally valid if stated by someone who had "direct experience" of Allah, Brahman, or Osiris, which would then "prove" that their One True God is the One True God as well as your revelation "proves" that yours is?  Because there are people out there who say with equal conviction that they have had a Revelation of the Divinetm which turns out to be different from yours.

That is what has been revealed onto me.  The truths I will impart to you about God here are from direct revelation, so please keep that in mind when you respond.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you" eh?  Say, can you walk on water or anything?  

I never said or thought I was special above and beyond any other human being.  God loves everyone, I love God, I love everyone too.  I do not place myself above any other person.

Except that you didn't have to "seek God" or be "sincere" or anything like everybody else.  The god you describe could, if it existed, do for everyone else what it did for you.  It didn't, and according to the other things you've said, it won't.  Out of 7 billion people currently living on Earth, you are the Chosen One.  So, why you?  Did your god hold a lottery or something?  

I feel I am blessed for the revelation I have received and I share that freely.  Regardless of what His plans are, part of His plan was to reveal onto me His existence.

Heh, you're starting to talk like the KJV.  Cult-leader status us sure to follow, lol.  Are you the next Joseph Smith, perhaps?

However, that doesn't make me special because He does it all the time.  If you weren't so insular in your views, and branched out your understanding,

Mind-reading skills: you don't have them.  What evidence do you have that I am insular in my views?  I mean, apart from the fact that I'm not insular in your views?  Project much?

considering both sides equally,

Whaddaya mean "both?"  When it comes to the issue of religion/spiritual belief, there are thousands of sides.  I am the one that's been arguing for considering the various "sides" (i.e., differing claims of Divine Revelation and mystical experience) equally.  You want us to privilege yours and yours alone with credulous, evidence-free acceptance.  You want us to "sincerely" seek your god and yours alone.  You cannot explain why we should not seek the Goddess of the Wiccans (and each one of the other deities people have believed in) with equal sincerity.

you would find abundant testimony from people all over the world from every faith and practice receiving revelation of Gods existence.

Yes, and most of the abundant testimony from all those faiths and practices contradicts yours.  A lot of it says that Allah alone is God, he has no Son, and Allah is his prophet.  A lot of it says that Brahman manifests in myriad forms (Krishna, Parvati, Shiva, Kali, etc., etc.).  A lot of it backs up the teachings of the Buddha, and goes on to talk about Bardo realms and Bodhisattvas, etc., etc..  Then there are the revelations of the shamans, going back tens of thousands of years to the caves at Lascaux at least, telling of an alternate realm populated with therianthropic nature-spirits.  I could go on.  BTW, thus far I have demonstrated more knowledge of the various "sides" and the abundant testimony from people all over the world from different faiths and practices than you have.  Likewise for my fellow commentators here.  And you want to call us biased and insular in our beliefs?

Of course that isn't evidence for a keen mind such as yours, who apparently needs the Creator of the Universe to dance a little jig in front of you for your amusement before you would believe.

Nope.  Just a pattern of behavior consistent with the attributes claimed for it.  So, if the Creator is said to be both loving and omnipotent (especially if the "loving" attribute is supposed to be perfect and unconditional), then we should expect to see omnipotence being wielded in a loving way.  If I were to claim that Superman was my roommate, that claim would have effects if it were true.  There would be news footage of Superman saving people, shrugging off bullets when criminals shot at him, etc., because "Superman" has, in addition to his powers, the attribute of wanting to use them to save people.  In the same way, an omnipotent, omnipresent Deity with a pattern of behavior guided by some principle (unconditional love, a thirst for domination, enjoyment of humans as tasty snacks, whatever) would be too big and important to miss.  We would not find ourselves in a Cosmos that looks and behaves exactly the way it would if such an entity did not exist.  You tell us that your god is unconditionally loving, but you can't point to a pattern of behavior on his part that manifests this, because he doesn't exhibit any behavior at all.

First of all, just because I said that the only way to know God is by direct revelation doesn't mean that you cannot seek out God and find Him yourself, which millions of people all over the world find out every day..

So which is it then?  Either God must reveal itself to us (i.e., God is the active agent, as you allege in your own case), or we can "seek out God and find him" ourselves, thus we are the active agents and God's self-revelation is a triggered response.  And, since "millions" of people every day find all sorts of different gods when they go a-seeking, we're back to the issue you have yet to respond to: why should we trust your inner revelation more than anyone else's?

The whole point of the gospel is to set you up, so to speak, to receive that revelation, which He does give abundantly.  Your childish understanding of the gospel really shines here.  Don't you know that when you are baptised by the Holy Spirit you have a personal relationship with the Creator?  What happened to me is nothing new;  the only thing that is different about it is that I wasn't looking for God.  That isn't even new, because again, if you ever bothered to consider both sides equally, which you are loathe to do of course since you would no longer be the center of the Universe,

There you go again.  Wherever would you get the idea that I (or any of the other atheists here) think we're the center of the Universe?  Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler debunked that shit 500 years ago.  We know that, as far as the Cosmos is concerned, we are sub-microscopic organisms living on a dust-mote within a little puff of dust we call the Milky Way, among a hundred billion or more similar puffs of dust, and that the Cosmos is profoundly Not About Us.  You are the one who thinks that you are the crown of God's creation, the purpose for which the Cosmos was made, so that a hundred billion galaxies of a hundred billion (or more) stars each were forged to make your night sky pretty.  You really need to stop projecting your own attitudes onto us.  It doesn't help communication one bit.

you would see that unbelievers receive visions quite frequently.

Sure they do.  I have received some pretty impressive visions myself after partaking of some psilocybin mushrooms.[1]  I can confidently say that anyone here could partake of psilocybin mushrooms or LSD or Ayahuasca or DMT and experience as profound a mystical experience as anything you've had, or more so.  Under controlled, laboratory conditions.  So once again: why should we trust your revelations instead of the ones reported by Dr. Rick Strassman's volunteers, or Amazonian shamans, or people using Ganzfeld sensory deprivation or Lilly tanks or meditation techniques or Dervish-whirling, or, or, or...  

Once again, the problem is: unbelievers (and believers of different stripes) do not receive visions that match yours, or each other's.    

The Kingdom of God can be observed at any time, in any place.
 

And it happens to look exactly like the non-existence of a Kingdom of God.  So in what sense can it be "observed?"

The internal and the external is Gods domain, Himself being the Souce of all things, and the Source of all action.

Thump your chest and hoot a little louder, that'll make your beliefs true.

If God wanted to let Himself be proven by instruments, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.  He prefers to stay behind the scenes and let humanity come to its own conclusions.

And then (supposedly) brutally punishes us for eternity when we do so, thereby demonstrating his unconditional love.

You miss the point, trying to test reality for God when your life itself is the test.

Oh, well, all right then.  My life demonstrates that no gods exist.  My Revelation, which happens moment by moment every second that I'm awake is of a Reality that is not haunted by Invisible Magic Persons of any sort--no angels, demons, djinn, faeries, gods, goddesses, burning bushes, talking snakes, wizards with magic powers, etc., etc., etc., and behaves--from the sub-atomic level all the way up to the cosmological--exactly the way a naturalistic Cosmos may be expected to behave.  The difference between my Revelation and yours: you have to live and operate according to my Revelation[2] if you want to do so much as cross the street safely.  You live in the same godless Universe I do.  You can present no evidence whatsoever that I will ever have any use for yours.

Right now I have an A+ and you have an F.  You might want to consult some crib notes because you are not prepared for the final exam.

Thump your chest and hoot a little louder.  Maybe it'll make your beliefs true.
 1. My visions must be true, because a loving Creator would surely insert vision-making plants into the Creation so that the visionary state could be entered reliably and repeatably--no blind faith in ecclesiastical authorities or human-written books necessary!
 2. Child is injured?  Call an ambulance!  Don't ever try to live according to Mark 16:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=16&v=18&t=KJV#18) or take Jesus' financial advice, etc..
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: kcrady on October 10, 2010, 04:37:41 AM
It has nothing to do with luck or being special.  It is all part of a grander design which science is unable to observe.  A servant does not know his masters business.  If he did, he would no longer be a servant.  I need not join your nihilistic understanding and your futile ways, which all lead to death (..one of us..one of us..).

Says the guy who worships before the image of a man being brutally tortured to death as an act of atavistic blood sacrifice.  Funny thing is, you believe that nihilism is true as far as reality is concerned, but if you pull the covers of Christianity over your head, you can hide from the Camus in the closet and the Sartre under your bed.  I think nihilism is bunk.  You're projecting, once again. 

I know because of my experience, that the Creator is merciful and unconditionally loving, and will reveal Himself to anyone who asks sincerely and with an open heart.

And therefore, all those other people who believe other things (whether due to rational thinking or differing mystical revelations of their own) must not have asked sincerely and with an open heart.  Therefore, they deserve to fry forever.  Right?  The nasty memetic trick here is to substitute morality for accuracy.  We should believe in Christianity because if we don't we're "insincere" and have "closed hearts" (and are therefore naughty), not because we have determined that Christianity's claims about reality match the actual behavior of reality.  Our motivation is to be guilt rather than a desire to know the truth, whatever it might be.

What foolishness it is to close that door;  even you must admit that human knowledge is extremely limited, and even more limited than that, are our perceptual faculties.  What a human being can discern at any given time does not measure up to the enormity of what is going on in the moment, regardless of how many definitions and labels man tries to abstract reality with.

Yes, absolutely.  Which is why we must subject all of our conclusions, no matter how "sincere" we are in wanting them to be true, to rigorous reality-testing and critical thinking.  If we want the most accurate understanding of reality possible, we need to take our most cherished, sincerely-held beliefs, and do our level best to prove them false (this includes engaging the arguments of others who reject our beliefs).  If our beliefs can consistently withstand every assault of reason and reality-testing (observation, experiment) that can be hurled against them, then we can have increasing confidence that they accurately model Reality.

In the face of the profound ignorance and limited faculties that is the human condition (as you correctly state above), what greater folly could there possibly be than to seize upon some subjective human experience as you do, and cling to it with unswerving dogmatism?

There is something that is always beyond any words, that is God, which cannot be placed into a convenient little box for study and dissection.  You don't have to take my word for it.  You can experience it directly, first hand, at any time, once you give up the idea that you are qualified to rule out the Creators existence,

Oh, I quite agree that I ought not "rule out" the existence of your chosen deity, or anyone else's.  I should always be willing to accept and test new data as it comes in.  The confidence that I have in the non-existence of your deity comes from the fact that there is no evidence for its existence, and the evidence that does exist, contradicts the claims of Christianity and the Bible.  Reality is not "in a little box for study and dissection."  It is all around us, and utterly inescapable.  If the claims of someone's private revelation (whether it be a Biblical author, you, a Hindu yogi, a Sufi master, an Amazonian shaman, whoever) conflict with the public revelation of external reality, reality wins.  As Philip K. Dick put it, "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." 

and open yourself up to the possibility that you might be wrong;  moreover, that you would want to know that Creator, if He did in fact exist.

I am absolutely open to the possibility that I might be wrong.  Are you?  Are you open to the possibility that your internal revelation might be deceptive, or in error?  I give you the Litany of Tarski (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Tarski):

If there is a Creator,
I desire to believe there is a Creator.
If there is not a Creator,
I desire to believe there is not a Creator.
Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want.

And the Litany of Gendlin (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Gendlin):

What is true is already so.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.

—Eugene Gendlin

Just because some people are misled in their beliefs, doesn't mean that there is no real truth out there.

Yes, but it means that we must have a methodology of testing the truth or falsehood of a belief.  "Just knowing it in our hearts" doesn't work, because people "just know" all sorts of contradictory things "in their hearts."  Thus far, the only methodologies that have actually, demonstrably worked for rooting out falsehood and converging on truth, are the methodologies of reason and the scientific method.

Man used to think the Earth was flat..did that mean the Earth wasn't round?

And how did we find out the Earth wasn't flat?  Somebody's mystic revelation?  Reading the Bible?  Nope.  By applying the scientific method to develop a set of observational tests whose results would be one thing if Earth was flat, and another if Earth was round, then performing the tests and letting the Earth itself (i.e., external Reality) be the final arbiter.

I don't need to have my experiences validated, nor does God have any need to be proven by scientists.  What would be the point?  If God wanted everyone to know unequivicably that He does exist He would simply just make an appearance.

So your god would prefer to deceive us by arranging things so that Reality behaves as if he does not exist.  Why then, should we trust any subjective revelation that (allegedly) comes from such a deceptive god?

just like you cannot disprove Gods existence, you cannot rule out my experience either.

I can, if your truth-claims do not match the public revelation of Reality.  If your experience purports to validate a Christianity that requires belief in Biblical inerrancy (you have not stated this yet, so that may not be the case), and the Bible asserts that Satan could show Jesus all of the kingdoms of the Earth from the vantage point of a high mountain, then the existence of a spherical Earth would rule out the claim that your experience is a genuine Divine revelation.  It would also rule out the claim that "God," defined as an entity who, incarnate as Jesus, beheld all the kingdoms of the Earth from the vantage point of a high mountain, exists, since no such vantage point exists.  It would not rule out definitions of "God" that are compatible with a spherical Earth. 

You cannot disprove any of the thousands of other religions, or scientific Naturalism.  Nor can you rule out the revelatory experiences behind all of the other religions, or the Reality-experiences that are consistent with scientific Naturalism.

The world makes sense to you?  You mean science explains everything?  What about the mind? Consciousness?  Emotions?  A million other things which are integral to life as we know it?

What about them?  BTW, science does not have to "explain everything" before the things that it does explain can make sense.  A blank spot on a map doesn't mean that you can draw in a sea serpent and write "Here Be Dragons," then smugly assert that dragons do, in fact, exist because you say so, and what you say is true because it's you saying it.  Arrogant git.

Science doesn't explain much beyond how to fit slot A into groove B.

Wow, I could hardly ask for a greater demonstration of your ignorance of science.  Seriously, that's like saying "The Bible doesn't say much beyond 'And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch.'"

Concerning your debate and fictional characters, it is better to consider whether anything is "good" at all.  By definition, only God *could* be good.  Chew on that one.

Oh, Definition as Magical Incantation!  By definition, only Goddess *could* be good.  A finger pointing at the Moon is not the Moon.  A god that can be written of in words is not the true God, therefore by definition the god of the Bible cannot be the true God.

See?  I (and anyone else) can make unsubstantiated Magical Incantatory Definitions all day long.

Chew on that.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 10, 2010, 05:20:02 AM
Friends - the above is not the entirety of tothesea's OP....but it is the gist of it - at least, the bits we all found important enough to reply to!  It's all in order, as memory serves - maybe the mods would like to copy it back into the OP position?

Thanks a lot for doing that, Anf. Much appreciated. The OP has been edited wth your reconstruction.


Eleven.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: natlegend on October 10, 2010, 05:22:45 AM
Oops kcrady, I think u may have scared him off...

Hope not. Want more lols!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 10, 2010, 08:05:43 AM
No. He's got a few posts left before he uses one of the usual rationalizations for why he must all of a sudden leave without engaging in any critical thinking related to his belief behaviour.

Get your sigs while they're hot!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: screwtape on October 10, 2010, 08:09:53 AM
I thought I might get some half way intelligent argument, that was to much to hope for.

It really wasn't too much to hope for.  The problem was, you started off short of a halfway intelligent conversation with emotional pleading, bad arguments we've seen a hundred times and lots of wrong assumptions.  Garbage in, garbage out.  If you would like to start over, I would suggest you read the Intro for Xians (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=228.0) before you make another post.  Hopefully that will help you acclimate.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 10, 2010, 09:03:20 AM
@RaymondKHessel

For one thing I did not call anyone a name, since you said I was a nut bar, [call me what ever, I dont care] at least I know what type of person I am dealing with.  
 I only feel sorry for you, God is real no matter what, I think we remind you that if we are right, you've got problems Otherwise why do you and others get there hackles up. I think it is sad and funny, what we believe should not have any impact on you, what you just said doesn't bother me, that is your opinion, and it is your right.  I thought I might get some half way intelligent argument, that was to much to hope for. When you start name calling that just show what kind of person you are. I won't waste any more of my time.

[modbreak]Please read the Quoting FAQ.  (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0)  [/modbreak]

Oh, grow up. We're all adults here. Are you so much of a coward you completely check out of a conversation as soon as somebody calls you a bad name? You come on here with Preachy Preacherton mode in full swing, offering NOTHING substantial in the way of debate and telling us we're DOOMED FOR ETERNITY because we dare not think like you... All I did was say you're crazy and rip your claims apart. So who's being a big meanie? And I'm supposed to respect you... Why? You EARN respect. It's not an entitlement. So far you've done nothing, absolutely nothing, to earn respect from anybody.

In what way was my arguement, or any of ours, not intelligent?  Please point it out. Please address ANYTHING anybody has said besides how some faceless stranger on the internet hurt your sensitive widdle feelings.

This is such a weak excuse to avoid the issues at hand. And since you're obviously not capable of actually holding your own in a debate, I'm not terribly upset that you're tucking your tail between your legs and crying your way out of the corner you've backed yourself into.

How was YOUR post even an arguement in the first place? You just pop in out of the blue and start making these hollow and paper-thin proclamations about the nature of the universe and how we're all screwed whether we believe it or not. There was no arguement there. Just a lot of nutbar ranting to make yourself feel better.

And now many of us have shredded your "arguement" to pieces. Where's the in-depth response? I sure hope it's coming. Then again, maybe I don't, because you're clearly in over your head here.


So far you're batting a 0%. Step your game up and take it lke a man, or just go away.

And I get my "hackles" up because your religion is poisonous, and is hurting us as a species. I see it every single day; every time a kid dies because their parents tried to "pray" a disease away, everytime a terrorist explodes themselves, every time an abortion clinic goes up in flames, every time somebody is infected with AIDS because missionaries condemn condoms, every time a kid is molested, every time the progress of science is impeded, every time you try to corrupt the educational system, every time you try to get your primitive beliefs passed into LAW...

You want to know why I get my hackles up? Read the "Angry Atheist" thread on the main page. Educate yourself.

I thought I might get some half way intelligent argument, that was to much to hope for.

It really wasn't too much to hope for.  The problem was, you started off short of a halfway intelligent conversation with emotional pleading, bad arguments we've seen a hundred times and lots of wrong assumptions.  Garbage in, garbage out.  If you would like to start over, I would suggest you read the Intro for Xians (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=228.0) before you make another post.  Hopefully that will help you acclimate.

Indeed. And I think he needs to take a few days and poke around the forum in general. He might realize that his mission statement has been "argued" once or twice before by far more articulate people with thicker skin and who are much better prepared. Might even pick up an effective tactic or two.  :-\
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: velkyn on October 10, 2010, 10:35:32 AM

It's always so sad to see that threats and fear are all so many chrisitans have. If God is so real, where is the evidence?  Why is there NONE? Why are Christians always limited to claiming coincidence and parlour tricks as "miracles"?   
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 10, 2010, 11:10:59 AM
I know because of my experience, that the Creator is merciful and unconditionally loving, and will reveal Himself to anyone who asks sincerely and with an open heart.  

Oh, you lying shit.

I wasn't looking for God at all.  ...He revealed himself to me, despite the fact that I was an unbeliever.  Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all.  

Your experience had nothing to do with "ask(ing) sincerely and with an open heart" - you were sitting there, an unbeliever, not looking for God at all.  So you have NO knowledge that "ask(ing) sincerely and with an open heart" will bring god to someone.

Is that why you deleted your original post?  Because you realised it contradicted everything you wanted to say?  Realised there were so many holes in your story that nobody would treat it with anything but (at best) amusement?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 10, 2010, 11:24:08 AM
^ Interesting.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 10, 2010, 11:28:20 AM
I wonder whether tothesea will be back...He sent me a PM on Friday saying he would answer some of my questions "tomorrow", but was using a library computer and had limited time.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment, since I'm assuming libraries will be closed today and probably Monday as well, so if he didn't manage to get around to it yesterday he may, indeed, not have computer access right now.

Not that I see much hope of getting anything useful out of him, but it's been amusing, at least.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gordon Freeman on October 10, 2010, 01:30:23 PM
^^ Yeah, I need some laughter too... (-:
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 10, 2010, 01:51:28 PM
Changing the OP is completely contemptable IMO.

Really, it's about the most dishonest and slimey you can possibly get. Just shamefull. That s**t should qualify an insta-ban. Though I suppose crippling his ability to edit his posts is a solid choice too. At least it allows the possibility of future laughs if he comes back, and the deceitfulness of it is now immortalized in this thread for all to see, at any rate.

Bans are bad for business too I guess. These guys just LOVE to martyr themselves. "See!? Those atheists couldn't handle the TRUTH so THEY BANNED MEH!"

Stuff like this REALLY reflects poorly on his religion though. Not to mention the giant honking black mark on his personal integrity. Wonder why he did it. Did he think nobody would notice or something?  :shrug
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 10, 2010, 05:46:00 PM
I think we remind you that if we are right, you've got problems
Likewise we remind YOu that if WE are right, then YOU'VE got severe mental and social problems.


Otherwise why do you and others get there hackles up. I think it is sad and funny, what we believe should not have any impact on you.....

You're right - it shouldn't.  But sadly your deluded beliefs force their way into the law, into the classroom, into our lives, and THAT is why we oppose them.  If your beliefs never left your living rooms, then none of us, I assure you, would have a problem.  But your beliefs have made people's lives a misery for centuries, and continue to do so.

The brights are gradually forcing back the ignorance of the supers, and we've come a long way.  But your narrow zealotry (manifested in a "believe in my loving god or BURN for all eternity") is still around, still forcing its way from your life into mine, and the lives of those I love. 

THAT is why our "hackles are up".  And that is why they'll stay up, until you take your goat-herder religion back inside your homes and churches and stop trying to force it on the rest of the world.
I forgot to log off and every one  thinks I am avoiding answering a question, no I am not. God made the world, and he expects people to do things his way. You will never get rid of Christianity, for 2000 yrs they have tried. every one wants logic and  proof, my proof can't be your proof, it is my experience alone and you do not believe in God anyway, so what good does it do me to say anything. What you say about God does not bother me, he can handle that himself.  If you want me to answer, give me respect or I will ignore you,I will give you the same respect, after all only our beliefs are different. Rules or no rules
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 10, 2010, 05:50:14 PM
Christianity probably wouldn't have made it if Constantine didn't declare it the official religion of the Roman Empire and, and Constantine's son's making the practice of other religions illegal. Hopefully the Christian religion, and all religions, will soon die and long be history. Nothing good has ever come from any religious teaching.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 10, 2010, 05:54:08 PM
Quote
If you want me to answer, give me respect or I will ignore you,I will give you the same respect, after all only our beliefs are different. Rules or no rules
   
If you want respect you must earn it. And if you won't follow the rules then fckoff, who needs you?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 10, 2010, 05:55:27 PM
ibelieveingod,

Since you ignored the many points of valid criticism against your assertions, I suppose that means you can't or won't reasonably respond.

If you can't, why do you still hold those ridiculous positions? If you won't, then why are you here?

Does your church consider it blasphemy or heresy that you believe your deity is not all knowing?



I forgot to log off last night and I can't find your thread I guess that is what you call it. This is a little confusing.  What were they. Am I required to click quote or is there another way to get to the post reply screen. Believe me I will answer, but some time we need a little time.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 10, 2010, 05:57:53 PM
Quote
If you want me to answer, give me respect or I will ignore you,I will give you the same respect, after all only our beliefs are different. Rules or no rules
   
If you want respect you must earn it. And if you won't follow the rules then fckoff, who needs you?
I will give it to you and you have not earned it, your right though I don't need you. don't reply to me post then,
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 10, 2010, 06:01:23 PM
Does your church consider it blasphemy or heresy that you believe your deity is not all knowing?

Quote
I forgot to log off last night and I can't find your thread I guess that is what you call it. This is a little confusing.  What were they. Am I required to click quote or is there another way to get to the post reply screen. Believe me I will answer, but some time we need a little time.

The above bolded (and quoted) is the only question I've asked you that I am interested in having you answer.

With the rest I was referring to the debunking of your claims by Raymond. Do you undestand the criticisms, and why your assertions are considered baseless and devoid of critical thinking?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 10, 2010, 06:01:38 PM
Quote
If you want me to answer, give me respect or I will ignore you,I will give you the same respect, after all only our beliefs are different. Rules or no rules
   
If you want respect you must earn it. And if you won't follow the rules then fckoff, who needs you?
I will give it to you and you have not earned it, your right though I don't need you. don't reply to me post then,
Same rules apply to me, we're in someone else's house and they make the rules, not me.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_012 on October 10, 2010, 06:06:40 PM
Am I required to click quote or is there another way to get to the post reply screen. Believe me I will answer, but some time we need a little time.

You can simply just click the reply button at the bottom of the screen. There is no need to quote an entire long post just to add a sentence. Notice how several members have only posted bits of your comments. I gave you a link to the quoting FAQ. I suggest you visit that page. It explains the proper way to quote. There is also a test area (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?board=28.0) where you can test the multiple functions.

If you need some time just say so.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 10, 2010, 06:14:57 PM
If you had read and understood the rules, you would know that this:

Quote
If you want me to answer, give me respect or I will ignore you

Is not acceptable.  In my view, not following the rules is disrespectful to everyone.

ADDED: Meant to say etiquette

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3997.0

The part about answering questions.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: plethora on October 10, 2010, 06:29:57 PM
I only feel sorry for you, I believe God is real no matter what, I think we remind you that if we are right, you've got problems Otherwise why do you and others get there hackles up.
Fixed your post.

You know, Pascal's Wager is the absolute crappiest most basic ignorant argument there is and it has been refuted many times. (http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager#Counter-arguments). You and your make-believe skydaddy don't threaten atheists no matter how much you try.

Why do I get my hackles up? Because you are trying to threaten me with eternal damnation. You worship the idea that an omnigod will send me, my wife and my child to hell for no other reason than not believing he exists. Regardless of our actions, lifestyles and personal morals.

You come here and try to threaten me with hell and you don't expect me to get pissed off?

How do you feel when a Muslim threatens you with hell for not believing in Allah and Mohammad? Do you like being told you are an infidel and deserve to die and be punished for eternity?

I would imagine you don't. Well neither do we and that is exactly what you are promoting here.

How dare you try to threaten me and then ask me why I'm pissed off?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 10, 2010, 06:35:12 PM
Put it back the way it was please!
Unfortunately the staff can't do that. However, tothesea is now in the 'Edit Restricted' membergroup and can no longer edit or delete his posts until we return that privilege to him.


Eleven.
I'm sorry I missed this somehow. I was unclear...meant for Tothesea to put it back.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: natlegend on October 10, 2010, 06:41:40 PM
Hi there ibelieveinGod, can you please show me an example of how your god is 'all loving'? Thanks.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 10, 2010, 07:43:26 PM
Does your church consider it blasphemy or heresy that you believe your deity is not all knowing?

Quote
I forgot to log off last night and I can't find your thread I guess that is what you call it. This is a little confusing.  What were they. Am I required to click quote or is there another way to get to the post reply screen. Believe me I will answer, but some time we need a little time.

The above bolded (and quoted) is the only question I've asked you that I am interested in having you answer.

With the rest I was referring to the debunking of your claims by Raymond. Do you undestand the criticisms, and why your assertions are considered baseless and devoid of critical thinking?
I do not go to church, I got frustrated with them years ago,  I have a relationship not religion and God is all knowing. This is all a waste of time, it just goes back and forth, You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, and it just goes nowhere. No more.On second thought after looking at replies to any remarks made by A Christian throughout this forum, and with the separate rules.I do not want any part of this. No matter what I say or any believer says, you would not listen or agree, not even minutely. What is the point? I can see just how much Christianity , and with others, even the Christian is hated. I am sorry for that .I am sorry for you, but it is your choice. You think if you call God a monster that he would prove any thing to you. He has proved many things to me, I have seen his work and I would not bother wasting my time telling most of you here. You made up your minds and most just demean and bully some one who does not believe like you. I've seen it across the board here. I asked for a little initial respect, and I am told to fuck off. Every one deserves initial respect, we have to earn the right to keep it though, that told me what kind of mentality I can expect to find here. I would have given every one here the courtesy of respect.  As far as I am concerned there are a lot of plain angry people here and they want to vent at some one it won't be me. You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day? You are delusional, better people have tried in the last 2000 yrs. Accept the fact that God is here to stay and we will stand up for what we think is right and just in this world. Get used to being angry then.
I was asked  to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us. I would not do that for you and neither would you. What was the point of the question? most here don't believe in God so why ask, see how that works? I am sure that whoever asked just wanted to try to make me feel foolish, Naw, not me. My skin is pretty thick, I just do not want any part of some of you, I think some you could use a little God influence. Let some else prove God exists, you wouldn't listen anyway.  Look up the word faith. I know you don't care if I stay or go,  but I expected more of a civilized atmosphere, I don't know what I was thinking. Most of you are lost causes and you are going to lose the most important thing you could lose and to me that is a waste. Keep trying to get rid of God, but be careful he just might prove his existence to you ahead of his schedule. Emilly I will f----n dare to pray for her. What is she going to do, she was the first one I heard from, she turned out to be a liar.  That is what I do, I will pray for all of you,  I don't know you but God does. Keep your hackles up and stay defensive, we are not going away, and when we do we will be with the Lord and I hope some minds get changed over time, it will be a sad and terrifying time for many whether you believe it or not. Do not be to sad to see me go I will keep you in my prayers, enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one.  I see I have more questions, Screw it, I won't give any one the satisfaction. I will see you on judgment day.  Nan
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 10, 2010, 07:54:03 PM
Quote
I asked for a little initial respect, and I am told to f**k off. Every one deserves initial respect, we have to earn the right to keep it though, that told me what kind of mentality I can expect to find here.

Sure, blame the monkey. Way to mischaracterize what was said. I said if you don't follow the rules to fck off.  You said you wouldn't respond rules or not, if you were not respected.... "If you want me to answer, give me respect or I will ignore you..." You had to be told by a moderator to read the FAQ and learn how to quote. You came in preaching which is against the rules and you threatened strangers with Hell. All signs of disrespect to the forum, it's owners and the members.

Bye-Bye Then!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 10, 2010, 07:54:47 PM
I will see you on judgment day. 

Save me a seat. I wouldn't miss it for the world. Until then, feel free to drop by every now and then when you feel the need to get crucified like your bloody, bitch-ass Jesus.  :D
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 10, 2010, 08:24:38 PM
Damn! Why do I feel bad about this?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Historicity on October 10, 2010, 08:31:28 PM
tothesea,
Can you please go back to this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16089.msg361066#msg361066) and attribute names to those you're replying to.
Moderator_020 has already spoken to you about using the quoting function in this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16089.msg360606#msg360606).
After that, I'd like an answer to this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16089.msg360968#msg360968) from me.

Eleven, I don't want to insult your learning so I will acknowledge you probably already know this:

ANTI  =  Greek for above, up from
NOMOS = Greek for law.

Antinomianism is the belief that the rules don't apply to you.  It crops up in all religions.  It could be that your task is too critical.  It could be that you are holier than us.  It could be that you are in a state of elation which you consider to be enlightenment.

I suspect that ToTheSea is such.

Be of good cheer, Eleven,  I think ToTheSea is merciful and will gladly forgive you.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Astreja on October 10, 2010, 08:38:00 PM
I have a relationship not religion and God is all knowing.

Prove it--Without using your personal experiences or Bible quotes.

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I would have given every one here the courtesy of respect.

You forfeited that respect when you presented your views as The Truth rather than as your beliefs.  I can respect someone who says "I believe..." but I cannot and will not respect someone who uses their beliefs to bully others into compliance.

You lost My respect the instant you played the Hell card.

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You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day?

Actually, yes.  I think the death of Christianity is inevitable, albeit it may take thousands or even billions of years.  If the human race dies, Christianity and all other human beliefs die with it.  Your own faith, ibelieveinGod, will automatically end at the moment of your death.

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I was asked  to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us.

Asking Me to accept the sacrifice of another being in order to avoid eternal punishment?  That is not an act of love.  It is the bloody and vicious act of a bully-god.  Not only is it abusive and morally reprehensible; it puts believers and nonbelievers alike into a morally untenable situation.  I should not have to accept something which I perceive to be wrong in order to avoid being tortured.

The sacrifice of Jesus is not love.  It is the ultimate evidence of the immorality of Biblegod, and I believe that people who would willingly play along with that sick game are not to be trusted.

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Most of you are lost causes and you are going to lose the most important thing you could lose and to me that is a waste.

'Lost causes,' hmm?  And you *still* think you deserve our respect, you pretentious little twerp?  Heeheeheeheehee!

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I will see you on judgment day.

No, you won't.  As I said earlier, I've already cancelled Judgment Day, and when you die you almost certainly will not regain consciousness in some eternal WooWooLand.  Your body will eventually disintegrate, and your "eternal life" will probably consist of being recycled into other material entities.  Get used to the idea, because the odds are I'm the one who got it right.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 10, 2010, 08:48:53 PM
and God is all knowing.

That's odd. I thought you said he created hell, and that it is people who decide to send themseves there, not god.

O.K. so yahweh creates most people specifically to go straight to hell. Why is that? Why don't the people get a say in that?   
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: natlegend on October 10, 2010, 09:04:35 PM

I was asked  to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us. I would not do that for you and neither would you. What was the point of the question?


No, I was not alive when this so-called 'jesus' fellow was nailed to a plank of wood, it has nothing to do with me. Please give me an example of where your god is 'all loving'. Thanks.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 10, 2010, 10:28:25 PM
Why did this 'god' need to kill his son to accomplish anything? 

Your 'god' is supposed to be 'omnipotent', but even that property is not required:  All your 'god' would literally have to do is decide not to send people to hell.  Heck, it takes far less effort than 'judging' and 'condemning' and all that other bullshit that feckless religious idiots say their god does.

A 'god' could certainly decide to stop damning people to hell WITHOUT torturing anyone to death, whether or not they're his baby or just a prophet, or just a fictional character compiled from past demigod myths.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Historicity on October 10, 2010, 11:40:56 PM
O.K. so yahweh creates most people specifically to go straight to hell. Why is that? Why don't the people get a say in that?   

Islamic belief is that some creatures were created for destruction and it is good that Allah has done this because and all Allah does is right.  Mohammed has a scene of the aftermath of the last judgement with the angels hustling the last demons into Hell for eternal damnation.  Some of them bitterly protest the unfairness, that Allah had known what would happen all along and they were only doing their jobs.  Allah responds that his will is transcendent.

There's a gospel song, "Farther along we'll know all about it/ Farther along we'll understand why..."  to which Mohammed added more or less, "... or not."

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 10, 2010, 11:41:38 PM
Damn! Why do I feel bad about this?

Don't feel bad, monkeymind. It's not your fault ibelieveinGod is a tad bit over sensitive.

Emilly I will f----n dare to pray for her. What is she going to do, she was the first one I heard from, she turned out to be a liar.

In what way did I lie? Where did I lie? You know something, I got accused by ToTheSea for "lying" when I said I used to be a Christian and teach bible study. Now you are calling me a liar. It's probably my skeptical side talking but based on this accusation of me I am wondering something.... Could you be ToTheSea? Tothesea jumps ship to the sea and you climb on board two hours later. You joined his testimony thread to comment on, and just like him you are preaching to us. Similar habits between the two of you.

You can pray for me if you want to but I seriously don't think it is going to do you any good. My dad has been praying for me since I was 17 and nothing has changed. What make you think your god will choose to answer your prayers for me.

Grow up, dude. That's all I can tell you. Monkeymind only told you to fuck off if you wish to not follow the rules, he wasn't telling you to fuck off directly.

It's not our fault you got so offended. The post where RaymondKHessel called you a nutbar is pretty damn long. I just copied it into my office program and it's 1538 characters long. The ONLY thing you commented on was him calling you a nutbar. There is a lot more to his post then that. You could've easily ignored that part of the comment and focused on the meat of what was said. You didn't - now that's rude.

Sorry but the members of this forum are interested in a discussion. We don't want to be preached to.

I can tell you what is a waste. A waste would be worshiping this being in the sky and praying to his son, both of which there is no evidence for. Your religion is just like all the other religions that have ever existed. There is this feel good story about paradise for following the main figures and there is this horrible story about eternal damnation for sinning against the main figures. What makes you so sure that Christianity, and your version of Christianity, is true. You only have a very, very, VERY, slightly better chance than we do of escaping hell but it's a very good possibility that if there is a hell you and I will be doing shots of whiskey together kicking back on a beach near a lake of fire for all eternity, with the rest of the members of WWGHA.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gordon Freeman on October 11, 2010, 12:25:35 AM
When ibelieveinGod is asked to give an example of god's unconditional love he talked about sacrificing Jesus for the world. Not convincing and surely not impressing.

He was asked many things but he avoided answers and then he said that we all are going back and forth with arguments and that is leading us nowhere, all this is a waste of time, we hate him and christianity (I guess we are the angry mob, the ancestor of those who crucified) and all other sort of things.

Why all this is repeating? This really seems like a waste of time. Christians come here to preach, we start asking questions and then we are the ones who are bad, angry at the world and pissed off?
Well get bent fellow christian!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 11, 2010, 12:55:32 AM
No matter what I say or any believer says, you would not listen or agree, not even minutely. What is the point? I can see just how much Christianity , and with others, even the Christian is hated.

Do you know why?  Because the majority of them - and you are a shining example of it - come on here and say "this is what I believe....no, I will not/cannot prove it....and you lot are all going to hell for being stupid."  Can you wonder why you get no respect for acting like that?

IBIG, if I said to YOU: "I believe in fairies because the Queen of the Fairies appeared and spoke to me.  I can't prove it to you, you all must believe.  If you don't she will torture you forever", what would you say?  Would you immediately accept I was telling the truth about my experience?

Most of you are lost causes and you are going to lose the most important thing you could lose and to me that is a waste. Keep trying to get rid of God, but be careful he just might prove his existence to you ahead of his schedule. .....it will be a sad and terrifying time for many whether you believe it or not. .....enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one. 

And there we go - the threats and threats and threats.  "Believe what I say, or boy wil you be in trouble."  Even if you weren't refusing to offer any evidence.....even if your evidence was as rock solid as this computer I type on, I would not be responding to threats.  But sadly threats and intimidation and fear are what all Christians end up resorting to - this from a religion that professes LOVE as its primary tenet. 

It would be funny if it were not so sad that every single Christian that comes here signs off with hatred and threats.  Makes me wonder how strong their faith really is if they will so readily cast it aside to score a few cheap shots.

I won't give any one the satisfaction. I will see you on judgment day. 

One final threat, and off you run.  And you wonder why we give you no respect....and why we feel Christianity is a disease that should be stamped out.

Ask your god if your behaviour on this forum was to his liking.  I wonder what you imagine he will say.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: kcrady on October 11, 2010, 01:20:27 AM
I do not go to church, I got frustrated with them years ago,  I have a relationship not religion and God is all knowing.

Brilliant!  Since you, unlike most Christians, actually have a relationship with your god rather than being limited to reading a book about him, you're sure to win lots of converts here.  Next time you have God over for a chat, ask him what the Dow averages will be at the closing bell for the first week of November, then post them here before October 31st.  Or ask him what star system the next Earthlike planet will be found in, and when it will be discovered.  Or you could ask him for the most elegant possible equation for modeling the folding of proteins.  Whatever.  Having a relationship with an omniscient person would inevitably have tremendous benefits, even better than having Superman for a roommate.  As long as you don't try to play poker with him, of course. ;)

This is all a waste of time, it just goes back and forth, You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, and it just goes nowhere.  No more.On second thought after looking at replies to any remarks made by A Christian throughout this forum, and with the separate rules.I do not want any part of this. No matter what I say or any believer says, you would not listen or agree, not even minutely. What is the point?

Oh, waaaaaaaaah, waaaaaaaah, waaaaaaaaaah.  Wherever do you get the idea that you're entitled to have us believe whatever you say?  You're like some guy who hates women because they don't give him sex on demand. 

You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day? You are delusional, better people have tried in the last 2000 yrs. Accept the fact that God is here to stay and we will stand up for what we think is right and just in this world.

Thump your chest and hoot a little louder.  Maybe that'll make your beliefs true.

I was asked  to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us.

Astreja already hit that one out of the park.  To set up a system by which one must be willing to profit from the torture and murder of an innocent person, while symbolically (literally if you're Catholic) engaging in the cannabalistic rite of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the victim, in order to be "saved" from a torture-threat issued by the one setting up the system, is not any sense an act of love or morality or justice or goodness.  Rather, it is the exact opposite.

That is what I do, I will pray for all of you,

You do that, Sunshine.  We'll think for you. 
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 11, 2010, 01:25:24 AM
(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/demotivational-posters-heartwarming.jpg)
http://verydemotivational.com/
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: plethora on October 11, 2010, 03:42:25 AM
You're like some guy who hates women because they don't give him sex on demand. 

^^ Brilliant! I'm soooo using that one.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: plethora on October 11, 2010, 04:24:45 AM
You think if you call God a monster that he would prove any thing to you.

I don't expect a god to prove anything to me because I don't believe he exists. You are claiming he exists. Without proof, we don't believe you. Simple.

Sure, I think the character you are portraying is a monster. Just like I believe the character of Hannibal Lecter is a monster. Doesn't mean I'm expecting Hannibal Lecter to prove his existence to me though. I know he is fictional... same as your god.

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I asked for a little initial respect, and I am told to fuck off. Every one deserves initial respect, we have to earn the right to keep it though, that told me what kind of mentality I can expect to find here. I would have given every one here the courtesy of respect.  

Don't expect someone to respect you when you are threatening them with eternal punishment. You would react the same way if someone threatened you.

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You think you will get rid of us and our faith some day? You are delusional, better people have tried in the last 2000 yrs.

You know, the vast majority of christians today hold beliefs that have little to do with what they were 2000 years ago... 1000 years ago or 500 years ago. You don't go around stoning women, leading crusades or torturing people for having the "wrong" beliefs like in the inquisition anymore. You don't own slaves anymore. The vast majority of christians don't even believe that Adam and Eve were real. They reject the creation myth and accept the Big Bang theory, Abiogenesis and Evolution.

What you call "christianity" today is a watered down version regurgitated and redefined over time in an attempt to keep up with humanity's progress. Original "christianity" died centuries ago... what you call christianity now is something else. I give it no more than 200 years before all those who identify as "christians" are practically "deists" and reject every last myth from their "holy books".

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I was asked  to name one loving thing God has done for anyone. Obviously you must know that answer, He gave his son to die for us. I would not do that for you and neither would you.

Listen to yourself. Your beliefs make no sense. This is what you believe:

God sacrificed himself to himself as a loophole to bend his own rules. After 3 days he revived himself and joined himself in heaven to rule for eternity. I fail to see any sacrifice. What I see is a lame myth where an omnigod performs an unnecessary bind-torture-kill when he could have just changed the rules and forgiven humanity directly. It's just bad story telling when you look at it for what it is.

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Keep your hackles up and stay defensive, we are not going away, and when we do we will be with the Lord and I hope some minds get changed over time, it will be a sad and terrifying time for many whether you believe it or not. Do not be to sad to see me go I will keep you in my prayers, enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one.  I see I have more questions, Screw it, I won't give any one the satisfaction. I will see you on judgment day.  Nan
boldred mine

Are you familiar with the boogeyman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman#Sack_Man)?

You're basically telling me that if I don't believe/behave the boogeyman will get me.

C'mon dude. You are lucky to have had the opportunity to be alive for an infinitesimally small period of time within the vast scale of the cosmos and you're pissing it away by worshipping the boogeyman.

I will take the one scrap of good advice I can get our of everything you've said... I will  enjoy this life. That's all I have and that's all I'm ever going to get.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 11, 2010, 05:22:49 AM
Damn! Why do I feel bad about this?

Don't feel bad, monkeymind. It's not your fault ibelieveinGod is a tad bit over sensitive.


Thanx!

Yeah, I got over it after re-reading the thread starting with his first post. They are starting to all look the same to me. Originally,  I got him confused with the other guy Tothesia, or I wouldn't have used the f-word. I'd been a little more gentle and said buzz off!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: generousgeorge on October 11, 2010, 05:33:47 AM
Yeah .... we were really ashamed of you for using the F word.  &)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 11, 2010, 06:58:02 AM
Their parthian jabs from the waaaaaambulance always reveal, verbally, the most ignorant of their belief behaviours, and initiate the most passionate deconstruction of those remarks by their critical thinking ex-fellow members.

It's my favourite part. Tothesea's are coming up soon.



Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: nogodsforme on October 11, 2010, 03:27:13 PM
God gave his only begotten son a bad long weekend for our sins. Jesus was a wimp--he never would have survived what his own teenaged mother went through giving birth to him. I've had dental appointments worse than what Jesus suffered, kiddo. Try again.  8)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 11, 2010, 03:36:07 PM
Their parthian jabs from the waaaaaambulance always reveal, verbally, the most ignorant of their belief behaviours, and initiate the most passionate deconstruction of those remarks by their critical thinking ex-fellow members.

It's my favourite part. Tothesea's are coming up soon.

Excellent observation. Thumbs up!  :D
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: velkyn on October 12, 2010, 10:50:38 AM
Do not be to sad to see me go I will keep you in my prayers, enjoy this life, you might miss out on the next one.  I see I have more questions, Screw it, I won't give any one the satisfaction. I will see you on judgment day.  Nan
I'm not at all sad to see you go.  I do have a couple of questions, and I suspect you'll be reading them as a "guest" or attempt to create a sock.

What do you expect from keeping us in your prayers?  I've had likely thousands of Christians claim to be praying for me and not too suprisingly, nothing in my life has changed that they would have like to have caused.  No forced conversion on the road to Tarsus, no harm to me or that which is important to me, nothing.  Why is it that you *all* fail?  Does your god not care about your petty little foot stomping?  Does he like me just as I am?  Or does he simply not exist? 

I do like to see wannabe bullies run away when people stand up to them, leaving threats in their cowardly wake.  I'm not too concerned to see you on judgement day or any other. How long has it been since your "savior" claimed that the generation he was supposedly speaking to would see this "second coming"?  How many GoodChristianstm have claimed to know the end times were imminent?  And they've all fail pathetically.  The Great Disappointment was a good one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

What happens when you are on your deathbed and nothing has happened?   
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 12, 2010, 03:02:03 PM
Yeah.  If airplanes were created, logically they must have had one inventor.  The Wright Brothers.  Oops.  But so what?  You're avoiding the point.  Why would the substitutions I made not be equally valid if stated by someone who had "direct experience" of Allah, Brahman, or Osiris, which would then "prove" that their One True God is the One True God as well as your revelation "proves" that yours is?  Because there are people out there who say with equal conviction that they have had a Revelation of the Divinetm which turns out to be different from yours.

That isn't the point.  Your reading comprehension is at a low here.  If, there is only one God, then all of the different faces of God we see on this planet as merely facets of that one Creator, who has chosen to manifest Himself in various ways to various people.  All experiences of God could be technically valid;  whether they are divinely inspired or not is the true question. 

"Verily, verily, I say unto you" eh?  Say, can you walk on water or anything?

Is this sarcasm?  Are you belittling me here?  :o

Except that you didn't have to "seek God" or be "sincere" or anything like everybody else.  The god you describe could, if it existed, do for everyone else what it did for you.  It didn't, and according to the other things you've said, it won't.  Out of 7 billion people currently living on Earth, you are the Chosen One.  So, why you?  Did your god hold a lottery or something?  

Again, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.  If you had bothered to read my post instead of just respond off the cuff, or if you had the intelligence to comprehend all of it at the same time, you would clearly see that I mentioned more than once that God gives visions to unbelievers all the time.  There is nothing particularly unique or special about that. 

Heh, you're starting to talk like the KJV.  Cult-leader status us sure to follow, lol.  Are you the next Joseph Smith, perhaps?

lol, is this more sarcasm?  lol are you trying to belittle me again lol?  lol?

Mind-reading skills: you don't have them.  What evidence do you have that I am insular in my views?  I mean, apart from the fact that I'm not insular in your views?  Project much?

How about the fact that your mind apparently passes over in a gray fugue of incomprehension things clearly stated and defined previously making any forward progress unlikely.  I mean so far this post has been cheap insults and repetitions and illiteracy.

Whaddaya mean "both?"  When it comes to the issue of religion/spiritual belief, there are thousands of sides.  I am the one that's been arguing for considering the various "sides" (i.e., differing claims of Divine Revelation and mystical experience) equally.  You want us to privilege yours and yours alone with credulous, evidence-free acceptance.  You want us to "sincerely" seek your god and yours alone.  You cannot explain why we should not seek the Goddess of the Wiccans (and each one of the other deities people have believed in) with equal sincerity.

Since you like going over things a million times, we can go over it again.  It is a very simple issue.  Either the Universe was created or it wasn't.  Either there is One God or there are no Gods.  Either there is a Creator who creates nihilistic ungrateful intellectually challenged children, or there isn't.  How does something come from nothing?  You're lost in the morass of human beliefs systems and are unable to delineate what the true issues are.

Yes, and most of the abundant testimony from all those faiths and practices contradicts yours.  A lot of it says that Allah alone is God, he has no Son, and Allah is his prophet.  A lot of it says that Brahman manifests in myriad forms (Krishna, Parvati, Shiva, Kali, etc., etc.).  A lot of it backs up the teachings of the Buddha, and goes on to talk about Bardo realms and Bodhisattvas, etc., etc..  Then there are the revelations of the shamans, going back tens of thousands of years to the caves at Lascaux at least, telling of an alternate realm populated with therianthropic nature-spirits.  I could go on.  BTW, thus far I have demonstrated more knowledge of the various "sides" and the abundant testimony from people all over the world from different faiths and practices than you have.  Likewise for my fellow commentators here.  And you want to call us biased and insular in our beliefs?

Yes, you'e right about one thing, you *could* go on.  Again, reading comprehension please.  I will repeat.  There is One Creator.  Use any name you like.  He prefers Father.

Nope.  Just a pattern of behavior consistent with the attributes claimed for it.  So, if the Creator is said to be both loving and omnipotent (especially if the "loving" attribute is supposed to be perfect and unconditional), then we should expect to see omnipotence being wielded in a loving way.  If I were to claim that Superman was my roommate, that claim would have effects if it were true.  There would be news footage of Superman saving people, shrugging off bullets when criminals shot at him, etc., because "Superman" has, in addition to his powers, the attribute of wanting to use them to save people.  In the same way, an omnipotent, omnipresent Deity with a pattern of behavior guided by some principle (unconditional love, a thirst for domination, enjoyment of humans as tasty snacks, whatever) would be too big and important to miss.  We would not find ourselves in a Cosmos that looks and behaves exactly the way it would if such an entity did not exist.  You tell us that your god is unconditionally loving, but you can't point to a pattern of behavior on his part that manifests this, because he doesn't exhibit any behavior at all.

God loves everyone, especially the lost sheep that turn away.  Human testimony about God is not sufficient, especially for someone who is closed-minded and bitter against God, and thus under the Satanic influence.  I told you exactly how to find out for yourself who God is.  God proves Himself, no human intervention required.  Since you are too afraid to face God, you are prone to many delusions about Him. 

So which is it then?  Either God must reveal itself to us (i.e., God is the active agent, as you allege in your own case), or we can "seek out God and find him" ourselves, thus we are the active agents and God's self-revelation is a triggered response.  And, since "millions" of people every day find all sorts of different gods when they go a-seeking, we're back to the issue you have yet to respond to: why should we trust your inner revelation more than anyone else's?

Sigh.  Reading comprehension please.  I said you could find out for yourself.  You don't have to take my word for it.  God acts as He acts.  For some, He may come to them.  For others, they are drawn in.  It's all according to the whims of the great magnet. :)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 12, 2010, 03:18:37 PM
Tothesea, I hope that you will answer as to why you removed your OP and also, that you will put it back.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 12, 2010, 03:26:24 PM
There you go again.  Wherever would you get the idea that I (or any of the other atheists here) think we're the center of the Universe?  Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler debunked that shit 500 years ago.  We know that, as far as the Cosmos is concerned, we are sub-microscopic organisms living on a dust-mote within a little puff of dust we call the Milky Way, among a hundred billion or more similar puffs of dust, and that the Cosmos is profoundly Not About Us.  You are the one who thinks that you are the crown of God's creation, the purpose for which the Cosmos was made, so that a hundred billion galaxies of a hundred billion (or more) stars each were forged to make your night sky pretty.  You really need to stop projecting your own attitudes onto us.  It doesn't help communication one bit.

I am just His humble, unworthy servant.  The truth is, anyone who displaces God puts himself in His place.  Your corruption is more subtle than you understand.  The very fact that you are so prolific in your blasphemous attitudes indicates your tremendous arrogance about your position in the cosmos.  If you were so live and let live and we're all so insignificant then you wouldn't partake in this ridiculous forum.  When I was agnostic, I considered atheists to be part of the intellectual dead pool and worse than any Christian.  Now, I am just sad that anyone could be so misled and be that arrogant about their views.  It's really quite amazing.

Once again, the problem is: unbelievers (and believers of different stripes) do not receive visions that match yours, or each other's.

Actually, they do.  Again, if you weren't so closed-minded and insular, and explored with an open mind the other side of the issue, you would see that many have gotten visions about the Lord, and I mean, the One true God, all very similar.  You can find them on the internet even.

And it happens to look exactly like the non-existence of a Kingdom of God.  So in what sense can it be "observed?"

What see is the lack within yourself.  If had life within yourself, it would be obvious.

Thump your chest and hoot a little louder, that'll make your beliefs true.

Is this your standard response to things you cannot refute or don't understand?

If God wanted to let Himself be proven by instruments, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.  He prefers to stay behind the scenes and let humanity come to its own conclusions.

And then (supposedly) brutally punishes us for eternity when we do so, thereby demonstrating his unconditional love.

Brutally punishes us for what?  This statement, in answer to my statement, makes no sense at all.  God does not want anyone to suffer, and has the door open.  You close the door, say F U God, I want nothing to do with you.  That's your choice.  So if you end up in Hell will you be surprised?  You didn't want to be with God..where else will you go?  This is exactly what I mean about atheists being logically inconsistent.  God loves you, whether you hate Him or not.  He won't force you to love Him.  You're rejecting Him, not vice-versa.

Oh, well, all right then.  My life demonstrates that no gods exist.  My Revelation, which happens moment by moment every second that I'm awake is of a Reality that is not haunted by Invisible Magic Persons of any sort--no angels, demons, djinn, faeries, gods, goddesses, burning bushes, talking snakes, wizards with magic powers, etc., etc., etc., and behaves--from the sub-atomic level all the way up to the cosmological--exactly the way a naturalistic Cosmos may be expected to behave.  The difference between my Revelation and yours: you have to live and operate according to my Revelation[1] if you want to do so much as cross the street safely.  You live in the same godless Universe I do.  You can present no evidence whatsoever that I will ever have any use for yours.
 1. Child is injured?  Call an ambulance!  Don't ever try to live according to Mark 16:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=16&v=18&t=KJV#18) or take Jesus' financial advice, etc..

Your life demonstrates your ignorance.  Your revelation, moment to moment, is that you are alone.  That's your choice.  You can shut the door.  It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The truth is that there is not one thing which has been Created which was not done through an act of will.  That anyone, regardless of belief, could not think there is something more going on than a static progression described by words and charts and numbers is incredible enough.  Your unbelief is actually evidence of how spectacular Creation really is.  :)

Thump your chest and hoot a little louder.  Maybe it'll make your beliefs true.

Repeat yourself much?
[/quote]
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 12, 2010, 03:36:10 PM
You don't seem to know Him, either Tothesea.

But first, Why did you remove your OP?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: velkyn on October 12, 2010, 03:38:43 PM
Actually, they do.  Again, if you weren't so closed-minded and insular, and explored with an open mind the other side of the issue, you would see that many have gotten visions about the Lord, and I mean, the One true God, all very similar.  You can find them on the internet even.

on the internets? why then it must be true.   &)  tothesea, you make a lot of assumptions about atheists, especially that none of us are open minded.  Of course, when you say open minded, you seem to mean "believe what I say, me only me!".  

And visions? Can you explain how visions of yoru god and of all of the other gods can be distinguished from the "real" ones and the fake ones? or as you'd probably put it "satanic" ones?  I'm guessing that anything that disagrees with your personal version of Christianity would always be "satanic".  It's usually the case for those who are sure that they and only they know what God "really" means.  
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: nogodsforme on October 12, 2010, 03:39:23 PM
See, god loves everyone, only you have to redefine love to include being invisible and acting like he's not really there. Kind of an absentee lover. And there is only one god, but people worship him all over the world as if he is different gods. Of course, all those people are going to hell for worshipping god in the wrong versions, even if that is the only version they have. Like not having the lastest version of Microsoft Word, they are doomed.

Many of us used to be Christians, sometimes very devoutly so,  but we have decided it was all bogus. We have not suddenly become evil ravenous murdering beasts. We are not hateful and arrogant and all those other things. Most of us are very nice, law-abiding people who take care of our families, help others, give to charity, work to make the world a better place, try to care for the earth and treat others as we want to be treated-- just without supernatural beings making us do it.

If we dumped god because we have been influenced by the devil, well, the devil was created by god and sent to trick us and help send us to hell. But remember, god loves us. Just like an abusive boyfriend who punches his girlfriend in the face to "keep her in line", he has a funny way of showing it. :P
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: TopolX on October 12, 2010, 03:40:55 PM
I'd also like you to answer my questions (quite a few posts back but still) Tothesea.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 12, 2010, 03:59:02 PM
Says the guy who worships before the image of a man being brutally tortured to death as an act of atavistic blood sacrifice.  Funny thing is, you believe that nihilism is true as far as reality is concerned, but if you pull the covers of Christianity over your head, you can hide from the Camus in the closet and the Sartre under your bed.  I think nihilism is bunk.  You're projecting, once again.

You came into this world empty and you seek to leave it the same way.  That's what nihilism is.  As far as the suffering Christ went through, it has nothing to do with pain.  The cross is about the resurrection.  Man brought death into this world and Christ liberated us from it.  You don't really understand the gospels so I don't think you should really ever speak about them.

And therefore, all those other people who believe other things (whether due to rational thinking or differing mystical revelations of their own) must not have asked sincerely and with an open heart.  Therefore, they deserve to fry forever.  Right?  The nasty memetic trick here is to substitute morality for accuracy.  We should believe in Christianity because if we don't we're "insincere" and have "closed hearts" (and are therefore naughty), not because we have determined that Christianity's claims about reality match the actual behavior of reality.  Our motivation is to be guilt rather than a desire to know the truth, whatever it might be.

The world is entirely misleading, as evidenced by the vicious circle of your belief system.  I picture the snake, eating itself, personally.  Justice will be served.  It is not wicked to not believe in God because you never received the message, nor is it wicked to deny God out of ignorance.  It is wicked to mislead others from the truth, not knowing it yourself.  This is the ultimate arrogance of atheists.  If you want to say religious people are insane for their beliefs, atheists must be even more so not even being able to lay claim to any particular revelation from any source other than their own perception, which is not sufficient to make a determination of that magnitude for themselves, let alone anyone else.  Atheism, whether God exists or not, is the ultimate delusion.  You have made your leap of faith my friend, right off the cliff.

Yes, absolutely.  Which is why we must subject all of our conclusions, no matter how "sincere" we are in wanting them to be true, to rigorous reality-testing and critical thinking.  If we want the most accurate understanding of reality possible, we need to take our most cherished, sincerely-held beliefs, and do our level best to prove them false (this includes engaging the arguments of others who reject our beliefs).  If our beliefs can consistently withstand every assault of reason and reality-testing (observation, experiment) that can be hurled against them, then we can have increasing confidence that they accurately model Reality.

In the face of the profound ignorance and limited faculties that is the human condition (as you correctly state above), what greater folly could there possibly be than to seize upon some subjective human experience as you do, and cling to it with unswerving dogmatism?

God has been thoroughly vetted, you could say.  The truth has been standing in front of us for time immemorial, and the testimony of billions is sufficient I think for at least a consideration.  It is only in this time of our "great" intellect have we forgotten everything of value.  We didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, we drowned him knowingly.  

Oh, I quite agree that I ought not "rule out" the existence of your chosen deity, or anyone else's.  I should always be willing to accept and test new data as it comes in.  The confidence that I have in the non-existence of your deity comes from the fact that there is no evidence for its existence, and the evidence that does exist, contradicts the claims of Christianity and the Bible.  Reality is not "in a little box for study and dissection."  It is all around us, and utterly inescapable.  If the claims of someone's private revelation (whether it be a Biblical author, you, a Hindu yogi, a Sufi master, an Amazonian shaman, whoever) conflict with the public revelation of external reality, reality wins.  As Philip K. Dick put it, "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." 

There is plenty of evidence, you have just chosen to ignore all of it because it doesn't fit your idea of what God *should* be like, rather than admit you couldn't comprehend it to begin with, so your shoulds really don't matter.  You cannot admit the fragility of your understanding, which doesn't amount to anything, and could at any time be washed out like a sandcastle awaiting high tide.  The revelation here is that you take a stand on nothing at all, closing your eyes and ears to the truth because it doesn't fit your ideas, rather than be open to any conclusion, regardless if it contradicts your precious understanding or not.  

I am absolutely open to the possibility that I might be wrong.  Are you?  Are you open to the possibility that your internal revelation might be deceptive, or in error?  I give you the Litany of Tarski (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Tarski):

If there is a Creator,
I desire to believe there is a Creator.
If there is not a Creator,
I desire to believe there is not a Creator.
Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want.

And the Litany of Gendlin (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Gendlin):

What is true is already so.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.

—Eugene Gendlin

If you were open to it, you wouldn't be an atheist.  You take a stand on faith, which is ironic don't you think.  I was agnostic, and wasn't going to change that position without direct evidence, which I received, and still receive, every day of my life.

Yes, but it means that we must have a methodology of testing the truth or falsehood of a belief.  "Just knowing it in our hearts" doesn't work, because people "just know" all sorts of contradictory things "in their hearts."  Thus far, the only methodologies that have actually, demonstrably worked for rooting out falsehood and converging on truth, are the methodologies of reason and the scientific method.

Scientific method is just a method, and certainly not the most superior one for obtaining truth.  The way physical reality works is really the least fruitful thing we could understanding.  Reality is spiritual in nature, and physicality is the lowest aspect of it.  There are better ways to know the truth, even in secular understanding.  What is the purpose of philosophy if not to say that science is inadequate?  We know the truth through human understanding, which branches into muc more than what is 2 + 2.  

And how did we find out the Earth wasn't flat?  Somebody's mystic revelation?  Reading the Bible?  Nope.  By applying the scientific method to develop a set of observational tests whose results would be one thing if Earth was flat, and another if Earth was round, then performing the tests and letting the Earth itself (i.e., external Reality) be the final arbiter.

Has nothing to do with the point.  The Creator of reality will be the final arbiter.

So your god would prefer to deceive us by arranging things so that Reality behaves as if he does not exist.  Why then, should we trust any subjective revelation that (allegedly) comes from such a deceptive god?

When you deal with God directly, you learn very quickly that He knows exactly what He is doing.  The revelation is enough for trust and love, but to try to comprehend what He does, even trying to comprehend a fraction of its enormity, is impossible.  The little I do understand is little indeed.

I can, if your truth-claims do not match the public revelation of Reality.  If your experience purports to validate a Christianity that requires belief in Biblical inerrancy (you have not stated this yet, so that may not be the case), and the Bible asserts that Satan could show Jesus all of the kingdoms of the Earth from the vantage point of a high mountain, then the existence of a spherical Earth would rule out the claim that your experience is a genuine Divine revelation.  It would also rule out the claim that "God," defined as an entity who, incarnate as Jesus, beheld all the kingdoms of the Earth from the vantage point of a high mountain, exists, since no such vantage point exists.  It would not rule out definitions of "God" that are compatible with a spherical Earth. 

You cannot disprove any of the thousands of other religions, or scientific Naturalism.  Nor can you rule out the revelatory experiences behind all of the other religions, or the Reality-experiences that are consistent with scientific Naturalism.

I wouldn't try to disprove the scientific method, since it is accurate for its purposes, but I would dispute many of its conclusions.  It is missing the point, but clearly it has applications in physical reality.  I also wouldn't try to disprove any religion, I would only say that One God created them All, for His own purposes, and we will all meet Him some day soon.  It's funny though that you think you could disprove my experience, and mention Satan in the same breath.  It's just a coincidence I am sure. :)

What about them?  BTW, science does not have to "explain everything" before the things that it does explain can make sense.  A blank spot on a map doesn't mean that you can draw in a sea serpent and write "Here Be Dragons," then smugly assert that dragons do, in fact, exist because you say so, and what you say is true because it's you saying it.  Arrogant git.

Pretty amusing stuff.  Im arrogant because I said science cant explain even the most basic, fundamental conceptions of existence, which it can't, and is therefore is unworthy as a cornerstone of belief, which it is.  It is just a methodology.  You have a lot of faith in your mother science, kcgrady.  Science is so full of holes I want to go grab some ham and rye.  If you feel that it's enough for you, well, that's your lack of curiosity and intellectual stagnation.  

etc etc etc

zzzzzz
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: sammylama on October 12, 2010, 04:04:45 PM

But first, Why did you remove your OP?

I am officially just lurking for now.  But, why is this not getting an answer?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: none on October 12, 2010, 04:12:55 PM
Pretty amusing stuff.  Im arrogant because I said science cant explain even the most basic, fundamental conceptions of existence, which it can't, and is therefore is unworthy as a cornerstone of belief, which it is.  It is just a methodology.  You have a lot of faith in your mother science, kcgrady.  Science is so full of holes I want to go grab some ham and rye.  If you feel that it's enough for you, well, that's your lack of curiosity and intellectual stagnation.  
science can't explain creation? why because it is imaginary concept that religious folk like to use as a cornerstone of their belief.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: TopolX on October 12, 2010, 04:16:09 PM


Pretty amusing stuff.  Im arrogant because I said science cant explain even the most basic, fundamental conceptions of existence, which it can't, and is therefore is unworthy as a cornerstone of belief, which it is.  It is just a methodology.  You have a lot of faith in your mother science, kcgrady.  Science is so full of holes I want to go grab some ham and rye.  If you feel that it's enough for you, well, that's your lack of curiosity and intellectual stagnation.  


OK I'm not standing by whilst someone remains this ignorant.

Initialization of the universe:- In a few short words it can be summarized by quantum vacuum, an energy in seemingly empty space caused by fluctuations at the quantum level, this energy eventually builds to the level of becoming mass and continued to do so until the big bang occured. This sent the matter and energy hurtling outwards at such temperatures quarks then atoms formed and so on and so forth.

Initialization of the Earth:- Caused by congragation of matter ejected from dying stars around our sun, stars being made from baser elements which eventually are crushed to becoming heavier elements through fusion. This mass orbited our sun until it formed the planets we see today. Our earth is actually believed to be a composite planet in that two slammed together to become earth with a huge chunk flying off into orbit to become the moon.

Initialization of Life:- At the kind of temperatures and with the mix of chemicals present billions of years ago life developed. At first it was a few base molecules which could share molecular information but continued to evolve to become viruses, single celled organisms, multi-celled organisms etc which eventually due to the fact a greater mix of DNA is advantageous developed sexual reproduction.

Initialization of Humans:- ~2 million years ago a species developed upright motion and this made it better at hunting. This increased meat consumption also increased brain power setting the forebares for humanity. Then through sexual selection (a bit like a peacock's tail) humans developed cognative functions at an alarming rate to become all you see here.

There, a brief summary of everything, find the holes in that.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Ambassador Pony on October 12, 2010, 04:22:17 PM
When you're ignorant, the holes find themselves.

She'll read what a creationist website tells her is a hole, repeat it over and over, then, when it is explained to her why the criticism is unfounded, and probably plain dishonest, she will lack the knowledge properly to understand why her assertion of the "hole" as fact, is retarded.

With tothesea, it seems to be a pattern when someone doesn't accept a bald and baseless assertion of hers, to immediately assume the point was misunderstood.

I don't think there is another option for the effusive ignorant fanatic. Scary stuff, really.    

About 5 posts left in the old girl.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: nogodsforme on October 12, 2010, 05:04:58 PM
tothesea, you are ignoring the fact that most of us used to adhere to beliefs like yours. I was raised in the most literal bible-thumping religion of all time, by some estimates. I challenge anyone to say they were more "Christian" than my family was when I was a JW. We ate, slept, breathed, lived and died by the bible.

If it was not in the bible, it did not exist, and that included dinosaurs, millions of year old fossils and physical anthropology. None of this fancy-schmancy scientific re-interpretation for us. Science was just a bunch of satanic lies. I believed it, although it did not make sense, because I did not know any other way to think.

I never had the god-smack of being hit upside the head with the true knowledge of god. However, I frequently had the reality-smack of trying to reconcile, say,  a giant dinosaur bone at a museum with "no dinosaurs in the bible". If dinosaurs were real, then the bible was wrong, and that just could not be. I went along with the Christian program because there was no other way. I think that is how many religious people are around the world. You don't really question your faith because what would replace it? You don't want to jump out into nothing, do you?

Now I have lived for a good many years, learned about other religions, other cultures, history, science and critical thinking. If god is all-powerful and really wants us to believe something, we would believe it. There would be no way around it, like there is no way around believing that the sun exists. If god wants it to happen, it happens, right? Case closed.

I know for a fact that much of what I was taught was magical nonsense, which explains why it did not make sense! Religion says that if it does not make sense there is something wrong with your faith. Well, I guess there was something wrong with my faith, then, because it did not survive critical analysis very long!
 
I have reality and no longer need supernatural beliefs to get me through the day. It is too bad that you still do. &)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Gordon Freeman on October 12, 2010, 05:09:39 PM
tothesea, you know nothing about life, about science, you are close-minded, arrogant, and delusional. You are scared of the world and you grip to your straw but you will drown. You are so afraid of the world that you hope to live eternally even there is no a slightest evidence for so called afterlife in heaven or in hell. The stories of Christianity are equal to bad movies from 80's. I laugh at you and your limited knowledge about the world you live in.

I don't need to back up my claims with any evidence because I am playing your game. But the difference is that I am right and you are wrong. You are just like a parrot who repeats what has been heard. You don't think for your self, and even if you do, you are not capable to make the right thought. This is not to insult you, this is what I concluded based on your answers. Your arrogance frustrates, but I laugh at you. I am worried that your stupidity might hurt someone, but your claims are too stupid for anyone to believe in them. But as Einstein said, human stupidity has no limits, so you might get few converts.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: plethora on October 12, 2010, 06:06:33 PM

But first, Why did you remove your OP?

I am officially just lurking for now.  But, why is this not getting an answer?

@tothesea

Don't think we're going to let you get away with this one. Explain why you removed your OP before you post anything else.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: tothesea on October 12, 2010, 07:25:12 PM
When you're ignorant, the holes find themselves.

She'll read what a creationist website tells her is a hole, repeat it over and over, then, when it is explained to her why the criticism is unfounded, and probably plain dishonest, she will lack the knowledge properly to understand why her assertion of the "hole" as fact, is retarded.

With tothesea, it seems to be a pattern when someone doesn't accept a bald and baseless assertion of hers, to immediately assume the point was misunderstood.

I don't think there is another option for the effusive ignorant fanatic. Scary stuff, really.    

About 5 posts left in the old girl.

Are you ever going to emerge from the peanut gallery?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: none on October 12, 2010, 07:44:27 PM
I ain't threatened at all, I find it rather amusing that you forget that you erase the main post which is the topic of discussion and think it is a threat to the "community" when in fact it just shows how bumbling you are when it comes to using a forum and talking on the internet in general and maybe even reflective of conversations you have face to face.
it's time for a change, are you ready?
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 14, 2010, 09:24:38 PM
I've split-off the ER discussion into its own thread and returned the original topic back onto the forum for the members to continue the discussion and respond to posts here, if they so choose.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 15, 2010, 04:53:35 AM
Tothesea claims NOT to have changed the OP.  Further claims that the testimony is extremely important.  Would not change if re-written.

And yet....in the 3 or 4 days between the post changing....

TTS does NOT edit the OP back to how it was.
TTS does not (once having lost edit ability) mail a copy to the Mods to ask them to replace it.
TTS does not go loopy about their work being lost due to some outside intervention.

I've written posts, that I've then lost because my login session has timed out while writing.  And I've been "rather peeved"....to put it lightly.  But TTS seems to treat with remarkable equanimity not only the fact that his important post was lost, but also that fact that (he claims) SOMEONE DELIBERATELY DESTROYED IT.

I'm sorry, but it just doesn't all hang together for me.....particularly given that his later posts often contradict his OP.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 15, 2010, 04:20:48 PM
I'm sorry to have taken away your new chewtoy, members, but tothesea has now been banned for persistent trolling.


Eleven.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Emily on October 15, 2010, 04:23:06 PM
^^bummer  :'(
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Agga on October 15, 2010, 04:24:22 PM
^^ Ditto.  :'(
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 15, 2010, 04:25:25 PM
Sorry guys, it's a dirty job being the bad guy, but someone's gotta do it. ;)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 16, 2010, 01:31:06 AM
Quote
Quote from: tothesea on October 15, 2010, 09:01:27 PM
I know who edited my post, and I don't need to ask God about it.  Someone other than me.  Even the moderator of the ER acknowledged it was possible.  Someone on this forum, a spineless coward who couldn't meet me in debate, with access to accounts, erased my post.

Maybe so....  If TTS is still reading this, his god could tell him WHO did it....and the Mods could then have investigated.

IF his story was true that he didn't do it....and IF his god really answered him.

He won't dare ask the question though, because he knows full well he will get no answer.  Or if he DOES get an "answer", he knows that it will be proved false.  And then his whole carefully nurtured "belief" will come crashing down.

Frankly, I see HIM as the spinless coward, making extravagant claims about his relationship with his god that, when crunch comes, he is too scared to put to the test.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: jetson on October 16, 2010, 08:19:22 AM
Liars for Jesus are a dime a dozen these days.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: monkeymind on October 16, 2010, 08:37:36 AM
Problem is we know too much about Him.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 16, 2010, 03:48:17 PM
Banned?  You can't ACTUALLY ban anyone.  The only kinds of people that 'works' on are honest people.  How many people do you 'ban' who are 'honest'?

How hard is it to make a fresh email address and sign up to a forum again and again, as most such trolls do?

So he'll come back as 'fromthesea' or 'christiandude' or 'samsonson' or whatever after a couple of days and start over, and it'll take at least a week to determine he's a troll (let alone the same troll).  Gods only know how many times he's been here under other names before.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 16, 2010, 04:06:23 PM
We have several detection methods at our disposal and you may be surprised at how many socks don't make it onto the forum because we catch them before they get a chance to post.
We can never stop all of them, but it isn't as easy as creating a new email addy.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Anfauglir on October 16, 2010, 04:06:44 PM
So he'll come back as 'fromthesea' or 'christiandude' or 'samsonson' or whatever after a couple of days and start over.....

....and thus proving that he is a Liar for Christ!
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 16, 2010, 04:07:56 PM
Yeah, you might have to reset your MODEM to get a different IP, too.  Or go to a different coffee shop.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 16, 2010, 04:10:00 PM
It doesn't matter anyhow, pingak, because we'll just edit out their posts (making it look like they did it, of course) if we don't like what they say.

As I'm sure you already know, we're all scared of the truth here.

;)



Moderator 11 smells.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 16, 2010, 04:13:09 PM
LOL.

Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Operator_011 on October 16, 2010, 04:18:08 PM
Hey, who hacked into my account, edited my last post and put "Moderator 11 smells" in there, making it look like I did it?

It must have been you, ping. It's a conspiracy I tell you.. a conspiracy to annoy me.  &)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 16, 2010, 04:56:50 PM
Yeah, I'm just all evil that way.

http://www.simplemachines.org/about/features.php
Banning
    * Ban members based on their username, email address, IP address or hostname.
    * Support of wildcards for email address, IP address, and hostname.
    * Include a ban reason (viewable for the banned user).
    * Include a ban note (only viewable by the admins).
    * Chose between full ban, 'no post' ban, or registration ban.
    * Include an expiration time for bans.

Given that list (which is more or less standard, and what I expected), I could be back online after a 'ban' with a new identity in no time.  

Not that I get banned from many places, but even when an online store disabled my login over some past credit card hiccup, it didn't matter (they had the lowest price, and I have no idea what their problem with my card was that was bad enough to prevent me from even logging in and using a different card, but I wasn't going to wade through the phone robots to figure it out).  I guess they never heard of someone with more than one credit card and email address before.  That particular instance had multiple things in my favor:
1. Whatever had happened, was years ago, and I had moved since then.  New address, new phone number.  Though I could have used a 'company' card with a business address to accomplish the same thing.  Or a PO box, or a mail forwarding service, or a friend or relative's address.  Short of a full credit check, I was one of hundreds of people with the same name in the U.S. alone.
2. I had more than one credit card.
3. I knew (more or less) how it 'worked'

It all added up to a unique, 'new customer' as far as their shopping system was concerned, so I was able to place my order, and they billed a different credit card and shipped my parts promptly.  And I smiled a wicked, evil little smirk.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: Agga on October 16, 2010, 05:05:59 PM
^^ Giving the mods forewarning that you're dishonest and wouldn't honour a ban from WWGHA.  Smart move.  &)
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 16, 2010, 05:26:30 PM
They gots no cause to ban me.  Maybe delete a post now & then, but I'm easy.

Nah.  The problem is, if I was being evil enough to be banned, banning wouldn't work. 

Since I'm not evil enough to ban, banning would 'work', but it would be an arbitrary thing.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: velkyn on October 19, 2010, 08:01:48 AM
IMO, banning works since the staff does what they can to show they are active. Yep, anyone if they want to badly enough can circumvent the process. But if a Christain wants to put their immortal soul in danger for getting on to a forum, that's just an added bonus.  I'm all for having more examples on just how much Christains really don't beleive at all.
Title: Re: You don't know Him
Post by: pingnak on October 19, 2010, 10:07:48 AM
Who needs more examples?  Their fevered little brains are one big pinball machine full of metal filings.  They would 'justify' their deceit as necessary to 'save souls', who can suffer their madness just as they do.  No difference between them and junkies who want their friends hooked on the same junk that they are.