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Dead Zone => The Bottomless Pit => Topic started by: SnoopingAround on October 06, 2010, 08:04:07 PM

Title: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: SnoopingAround on October 06, 2010, 08:04:07 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Emily on October 06, 2010, 08:12:19 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Seriously????

The only evidence I'd accept of (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God would be that god creating another world right before my eyes as said in that god's holy book.

In what way is saying "no evidence" vague? There is either evidence for god or there isn't.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: penfold on October 06, 2010, 08:24:00 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

I suppose one answer is that my rationality will not allow me to adopt a belief in something's existence without evidence for it. I understand if you may think that is a narrow response, but I assure you it is authentic.

It was interesting that the first attribute of God you listed was 'Loving'. My experience of atheism has been tough at times. I have sometimes been afflicted by a profound void of being: 'nausea' Sartre calls it. What I have found is that compassion, both towards myself and others, has really helped me get through that. There is no need for a God to make me behave in a loving manner. Actions of love, in themselves, are justification alone.

So a second answer to your question would be: I don't need God. I'm free.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 06, 2010, 08:37:14 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.


Requiring "evidence" isn't vague, and your calling it so doesn't make it so, any more than your saying a "loving" "all knowing" "intelligent" god-being exists with your complete lack of same evidence.

You can't make up the rules as you go along and redefine words because you don't like that they will be used against you.

"evidence" is not "vague" and by definition requires specificity.

"Believing" in things that have no evidence whatsoever as being real is itself very vague.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: blahsphemer on October 06, 2010, 08:42:30 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?
Why do you have to speak for them, why aren't they just speaking for them self's if they want to communicate with us?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: TopolX on October 06, 2010, 08:56:39 PM
Well I suppose it would be the paradox in having a god and having a flaw such as being loving rather than perfectly neutral that would stop me believing in such a being.

An all knowing god would not be something which is particularly out of the way assuming that both a and c don't apply. An all knowing but impersonal and unmotivated god (something like a giant supernatural hard drive) could be theorectically possible but in that case it would not really be a supreme being merely a curiousity.

An intelligent god is almost as bad as a loving god. A god which is intelligent would have some plan however the chaotic nature of existence shows that there is no plan in any way, shape or form and hence no god. The universe "runs" on probabilities and random occurances so an intelligent supreme being is impossible for me to believe in as it would have some sort of objective and intervene with chance but clearly nothing has. Ever.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: voodoo child on October 06, 2010, 08:59:04 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?


I do not know if its loving, I don't know if its all knowing, I don't know if there is a god.

If I told you about a magic tea pot that orbits the moon without being able to show it to you. would you believe it? 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: wright on October 06, 2010, 09:06:23 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.

Edit: removed a kneejerk response...

Loving? I don't see much love or all knowing or intelligence in a god who creates a world with smallpox, guinea worms and Pol Pot.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: bgb on October 06, 2010, 09:19:54 PM
The christian god according to the bible is neither loving, knowing and most of all intelligent.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: IAmFirst on October 06, 2010, 09:24:50 PM
^^ This. Loving?? Fully agreed bgb.

He commanded armies to kill for him. Joshua and his army killed innocent men, women and children for the LORD.

All knowing?? Why does he ask so many questions to only two intelligent creatures HE created in the GofE?

The book of Job clearly shows what a gullible sort this Yahweh is.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 06, 2010, 09:26:56 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
a) Looking at the bible it is clear that the biblical God is not loving. (Not to mention there's no evidence for him)

Looking at the world around us it is clear that there are no loving gods helping mankind.

b) Looking at the bible it is clear that the biblical God is not all-knowing. (Not to mention there's no evidence for him)

For other hypothetical gods there simply is no evidence for their existence. There is no other explanation here.

c) Looking at the bible it is clear that the biblical God is not the sharpest tool in the shed, given that his plans fail on a regular basis. (Not to mention there's no evidence for him)

For other hypothetical gods there simply is no evidence for their existence. There is no other explanation here.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_016 on October 06, 2010, 10:19:24 PM
Hi SnoopingAround,

A review of your posts shows a common motif: you are challenging us to disprove some poorly defined supernatural concept.  So far we have these threads started by you all within the past few hours:

>> Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

>> Is the [biblical] story of Jesus unique? Was Jesus unique? Why or what not?

>> Is the idea of ‘Salvation by Faith’ logical or moral?

>> What are the arguments against the Armageddon prophecy/belief?

>> Why aren't we in the Last Days?  Why is the prophecy unreliable or immoral or illogical or without evidence?

>> What evidence is there for Satan's (supposed) existence? What evidence suggests that Satan isn’t real? 


You claim to doubt that gods exist, yet you seem fixated on the Christian god Yahweh.  Are you aware that this forum's members are mostly non-believers for whom all these questions are simply fictional nonsense, akin to "Why can't Lord Voldemort die?"

Why don't you circle back and reply to some of the people who have done you the courtesy of answering your questions?  Some of the members think you are a troll.  Are you?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 07, 2010, 12:28:13 AM
Why do YOU doubt the existance of a (a) Cookie-based (B)Frog-like (C) Narcoleptic toaster tree?

Shot in the dark: Because it makes absolutely no sense and is logically absurd?

Hmmm....
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: dloubet on October 07, 2010, 01:55:26 AM
Quote
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Quite simply because nothing to date has convinced me of one. That's it. That's the truth. That's all there is to it.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: SnoopingAround on October 07, 2010, 07:28:09 AM
Hi SnoopingAround,

A review of your posts shows a common motif: you are challenging us to disprove some poorly defined supernatural concept.  So far we have these threads started by you all within the past few hours:

>> Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

>> Is the [biblical] story of Jesus unique? Was Jesus unique? Why or what not?

>> Is the idea of ‘Salvation by Faith’ logical or moral?

>> What are the arguments against the Armageddon prophecy/belief?

>> Why aren't we in the Last Days?  Why is the prophecy unreliable or immoral or illogical or without evidence?

>> What evidence is there for Satan's (supposed) existence? What evidence suggests that Satan isn’t real? 


You claim to doubt that gods exist, yet you seem fixated on the Christian god Yahweh.  Are you aware that this forum's members are mostly non-believers for whom all these questions are simply fictional nonsense, akin to "Why can't Lord Voldemort die?"

Why don't you circle back and reply to some of the people who have done you the courtesy of answering your questions?  Some of the members think you are a troll.  Are you?


Hello.

1.  My questions are sincere.  I am not a troll.

2.  I have limited access to the Internet, thus I have to restrict how much I can use the forum from time to time.  Sometimes I may not be able to respond to comments to my questions right away.  Nonetheless, whenever I get a chance, I do read and consider all the comments and appreciate your help very much (well, the sincere answers, anyway).  Your answers are very important to me.

3.  While I serious doubt the existence of God of gods (or Satan or demons), I have come from a somewhat religious background, hence much of my understanding of the world has been explained from religious perspective.  I have very little awareness or understanding of secular views.  I am trying to understand.  Sometimes I question whether my doubts in the existence in God, gods, Satan, or demons, is the right outlook.  Right now, I feel I don’t have many explanations – from a scientific/logical/moral perspective – to explain religious beliefs.  I feel the need to settle these issues in my mind so that I can feel honest with myself and the world.  By considering your views, I feel this will enable me to gain more knowledge and to draw a broader picture and enable me to make a more sophisticated outlook on concepts such as gods, demons, faith, etc.  In other words, I am admitting that I lack some critical thinking skills and understanding of psychology and delusion (etc).  Most of my early years (the time that really shapes how we learn to reason) were shaped by narrow, absolutist religious perspectives.  The way I see life and understand is all I know.  I am hoping that you guys may enlighten me and help me see things from a broader view.  I don’t want to be narrow minded in my thinking anymore.  I want to be a considered human being.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: jetson on October 07, 2010, 07:34:54 AM
Well, if you are indeed sincere, then rest easy with the knowledge that all gods are imaginary, human inventions.  People do not rise from the dead, donkeys and snakes simply do not talk, water cannot be turned into wine via magic, and humans cannot be conceived without both a sperm and an egg.  It really is that simple.  The entire premise of Christianity is based on a single book, written by ignorant and fearful human beings who had no idea how our world really works. 

If you can find anything outside of The Bible that substantiates any of the miraculous claims or stories, you might have something.  But until then, consider every bit of it as mythology, exactly like Zeus, Thor, and all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: SnoopingAround on October 07, 2010, 08:06:18 AM
Well, if you are indeed sincere, then rest easy with the knowledge that all gods are imaginary, human inventions.  People do not rise from the dead, donkeys and snakes simply do not talk, water cannot be turned into wine via magic, and humans cannot be conceived without both a sperm and an egg.  It really is that simple.  The entire premise of Christianity is based on a single book, written by ignorant and fearful human beings who had no idea how our world really works. 

If you can find anything outside of The Bible that substantiates any of the miraculous claims or stories, you might have something.  But until then, consider every bit of it as mythology, exactly like Zeus, Thor, and all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans.

Good luck!

Hello.  Thanks for your reply.  I am very appreciative.  Can you please be more detailed, if you don't mind?  You are making lots of claims ("all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans", "all gods are imaginary, human inventions", etc - how can you possibly know this?) without providing the evidence or reasons to support them. Religions do exactly the same as this, don't they?  I don't believe in God or gods or Satan, etc, yet I don't really have any reasons for my disbelief, other than the fact I have never experienced these things with my human senses/and because these charcaters don't seem convincing to me. I recognise that these views alone to not proof that these characters do not exist.  I want to be sure that my disbelief in God/Satan is founded on good reason and evidence. Telling me that "there's no evidence" or that "they are all myths" does not tell me anything other than you are not convinced.  I need actual examples backed by science/reason.  Please, if you don't mind and have the time, can you give me clear/testable factual and logical reasons to my question ("Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent.."). Thanks for helping me.  It means a great deal.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: dloubet on October 07, 2010, 08:32:13 AM
Dude, logic suggests that you withhold agreement with a proposition until the proposition is established.

You're already doing that.

You're done!

You said you want a logical reason for your disbelief, that is your logical reason.

The Burden of Proof is not on you.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: snkiesch on October 07, 2010, 08:34:31 AM
A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: SnoopingAround on October 07, 2010, 08:42:02 AM
A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs

This is the kind of answer I am looking for. One with reasoned examples/realities.
: )
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 07, 2010, 08:48:49 AM
My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: bertatberts on October 07, 2010, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: snoopingaround
Please, if you don't mind and have the time, can you give me clear/testable factual and logical reasons to my question ("Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent.."). Thanks for helping me.  It means a great deal.
I doubt, because I have no good reason to believe one does.

Though I think you should firstly further define what God, and why! yours is the correct one, given there are 850+ gods, (this does not include the 3 million Hindu gods).
Then I shall try to elucidate more why I doubt, and further answer your questions.

Though I think you should be able to reason it out yourself whilst your trying defined why your is the correct one.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 07, 2010, 09:12:04 AM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague.
why is this "too vague"?  The fact is that there is NO evidence.  And no evidence indicates no BibleGod.  There is nothing that shows that the claims by Christians are real. No bible events, no miracles, nothing. 

BibleGod is defined as loving, omniscient and omnipotent.  Considering that even its own supposed book shows this not to be true, why believe in such garbage?  Christians consistently depower their god to excuse its evident impotence which is always hilarious or they decide that this supposedly unchanging being changes as they need to bolster their arguments. Suddenly their god doesn't go miracles anymore because of the oft-invoked "free will", but that certainly didn't seem to bother their god before.  It's just sad to see their pathetic arguments.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 09:41:46 AM

Hello.

1.  My questions are sincere.  I am not a troll.

Please provide evidence that you are not.



2.  I have limited access to the Internet, thus I have to restrict how much I can use the forum from time to time.  Sometimes I may not be able to respond to comments to my questions right away.  Nonetheless, whenever I get a chance, I do read and consider all the comments and appreciate your help very much (well, the sincere answers, anyway).  Your answers are very important to me.

What makes this statement unbelievable (as in not able to be believed) is that you were "online" the entire time people were responding and then some. You were online for AT LEAST an hour past when  you made your last post. You DO realize that your activity can be tracked, don't you? I mean, you leave "concrete evidence" behind.

3.  While I serious doubt the existence of God of gods (or Satan or demons), I have come from a somewhat religious background, hence much of my understanding of the world has been explained from religious perspective.  I have very little awareness or understanding of secular views.  I am trying to understand.  Sometimes I question whether my doubts in the existence in God, gods, Satan, or demons, is the right outlook.  Right now, I feel I don’t have many explanations – from a scientific/logical/moral perspective – to explain religious beliefs.  I feel the need to settle these issues in my mind so that I can feel honest with myself and the world.  By considering your views, I feel this will enable me to gain more knowledge and to draw a broader picture and enable me to make a more sophisticated outlook on concepts such as gods, demons, faith, etc.  In other words, I am admitting that I lack some critical thinking skills and understanding of psychology and delusion (etc).  Most of my early years (the time that really shapes how we learn to reason) were shaped by narrow, absolutist religious perspectives.  The way I see life and understand is all I know.  I am hoping that you guys may enlighten me and help me see things from a broader view.  I don’t want to be narrow minded in my thinking anymore.  I want to be a considered human being.


Again, hogwash. Your syntax and lexicon betray you.

By that I mean, you can clearly articulate and communicate complex ideas that betray your claim of supposed lack of "critical thinking skills." And your use of the term "god of gods" in the same breath as your serious "doubt" of the same.

Also, this site is virtually bursting at the seams with thread after thread after thread that goes into tremendous detail and providing all sorts of examples of the "secular views."

Heck, just read up on all the posts by JeffPT, among many others, then come back and ask your questions.

You obviously can use The Google, and would get a much more detailed and thorough knowledge and understanding of the "secular views" by reading some very good and in-depth books and articles on the subject. And there are plenty out there.

But I think you know that. Why would you not read, on I don't know, Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion for one?

Heck there are even some very good videos on You Tube that can give you the top-line gist and provide you with the answers you claim to be seeking here.

But coming into this forum and posting the numerous questions, that actually start from a position of belief instead of from a position of doubtfulness is very -- curious.

If you are not a troll, then are you perhaps working on a school project?



Whichever, it would do you well to stop lying to us.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Whateverman on October 07, 2010, 09:58:40 AM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
Loving - If the Creator is "loving", this word is different from the one found in the dictionary.  If you put your child into preschool, and you see him start pounding on other kids, or if you see other kids start pounding on him, what would you do?  Would you intervene?  As a loving parent, yes you would.  If you had the power to help your children avoid death, you'd do that too.  If you had the power to help them understand the world around them and show them how to live the best lives possible, you'd spend quality time with them showing exactly what to do.

Would you kill your child for insulting you?  Would you destroy your house and the entire family if they stopped listening to your wishes?  Would you torture your kids for thinking the wrong things?

Almost certainly, no - you would not.  Not if you loved them.

The Christian deity is not loving, regardless of whether he exists or not.  {EDIT: the same holds true for almost every religious concept of God I've encountered.  None are 'loving' in the way that we typically use the word}


All Knowing - this trait raises problems for the deity in question.  Specifically, if He knows what He will do in the future, this means he can't be omnipotent; he can't do something different from what he has predicted he will do.  Omniscience also raises some concerns for our ability to have free will, let alone be punished or applauded for the actions we take.  If I am predestined to make certain choices, then there is nothing I can do to avoid that destiny.  Why punish me for something I can not possibly change?

For me, omniscience is troublesome when it's combined with other traits.  By itself, the idea is kinda silly, but otherwise not terribly objectionable.


Intelligent - this seems redundant (re. "all knowing"), so I'm going to assume you simply meant "exists".  As in why do I have a problem believing in the existence of a sentient Creator.  Speaking only for me, I don't have a problem with it.  My problems come from the kinds of things this Creator is attributed with.  By itself, I consider it possible that we human beings were put here by an intelligent force.  There doesn't seem to be much evidence for it, but hey, it's still a possibility.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: gonegolfing on October 07, 2010, 10:47:54 AM
A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs

This is the kind of answer I am looking for. One with reasoned examples/realities.
: )

Look, you seem to be sincere. I hope so.

From your OP it would seem to me that your simply suffering from the side effects of child indoctrination.

You're an adult now. You can set yourself free from those side effects. There's absolutely nothing holding you back from doing so and don't be fooled any longer into thinking that there is.

There's a very good reason that we have the ability to doubt: To protect ourselves. Reason tells you to protect yourself from superstitions and delusions. This is why millions protect themselves from belief in the loving god hypothesis, as it is yet to be proved to be anything other than superstition and delusion.

Also, it's unrealistic to ask us to avoid the most blatant and powerful answer to your question. The total lack of perceivable, reliable, unambiguous, and definitive evidence for the existence of deities is in and of itself the most devastating attack on the claim. My opinion as to what the evidence should be is meaningless as to the fact that none of any kind exists. If it did exist, then the only logical and apropos approach would be for the deity to clearly and unmistakably present itself as the evidence needed to make its existence known.

Good luck   
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: bartly on October 07, 2010, 10:51:54 AM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

I suppose one answer is that my rationality will not allow me to adopt a belief in something's existence without evidence for it. I understand if you may think that is a narrow response, but I assure you it is authentic.

It was interesting that the first attribute of God you listed was 'Loving'. My experience of atheism has been tough at times. I have sometimes been afflicted by a profound void of being: 'nausea' Sartre calls it. What I have found is that compassion, both towards myself and others, has really helped me get through that. There is no need for a God to make me behave in a loving manner. Actions of love, in themselves, are justification alone.

So a second answer to your question would be: I don't need God. I'm free.





Yes ... compassion is the key - and thank ''God'' that we evolved the abilty for it; otherwise, with human intelligence and creativity, we'd be living in ''hell''.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 10:52:03 AM
A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs

This is the kind of answer I am looking for. One with reasoned examples/realities.
: )

Then you are not looking very deep.

A) Yes, you would. But, they would get in trouble anyway
B) Free will, what a bitch.
C) ??? I would call these natural results of evolution. Of course, intra-species evolution which I don't believe contradicts Biblical creation.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 10:54:33 AM
@ gonegolfing

Exactly, Christians call it 'Judgement Day'

[modbreak]Unnecessary quoting removed[/modbreak]
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 10:57:03 AM
My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 10:58:08 AM

Then you are not looking very deep.

A) Yes, you would. But, they would get in trouble anyway

But you wouldn't kill them yourself just because they did OR if they were rude to you.

B) Free will, what a bitch.

Unfortunately, if a god-being is "all knowing" then "free will" is pointless. Because if you as the god-being already know what the person will do, then what is the point? You knew that person would do and behave like that before that person was even born (theoretically) so you simply set in place a person who was going to do what he was going to do regardless of anything else.

C) ??? I would call these natural results of evolution. Of course, intra-species evolution which I don't believe contradicts Biblical creation.

Oh, that's a new one. "Intra-species" evolution.


ANd I would respectfully request that the mods confirm this is not a sock of snoopingaround.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 11:03:07 AM
My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.


Well, snark aside, technically you are correct that is not god-being's fault since there is no god-being to begin with.

But it really isn't man's "fault" either, except where we can make a difference and we don't.



A
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Azdgari on October 07, 2010, 11:09:06 AM
My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

Where was he blaming it on a god?  Why would he blame it on something he doesn't believe exists?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 11:17:25 AM
My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

6 million children dying a year is certainly no loving, knowing, intelligence quality to have on a resume. If biblegod does exist, to quote George Carlin, "he's at least incompetent and maybe doesn't give a fuck."
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 07, 2010, 11:41:59 AM
Then you are not looking very deep.
one more Christian who thinks that they know what God "really meant".  Sorry, Mark, but all Christians claim this.

Let me address your answer to B.  You want to invoke free will, like many Christians do. However, you do forget that your god has shown no interest in free will, per your own bible.  This has become a modern excuse used to ignore your god's evident impotence or non-existence. 

and your answer to C, which is the usual ignorant creationist claim.  It is always so amusing to see Christians pick and choose what science to accept. 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 07, 2010, 12:09:50 PM
My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

Exactly! I mean God is the one who set up this idiotic system that would allow that kind of horror and pain and suffering and misery. And what's worse is that we're only talking about the kids that die from starvation!

How about the stats for all the children that die of cancer, in car wrecks, earthquakes, backyard swimming pools, river floods, blizzards... The list goes on and on.

That's a LOT of bad things. And I don't see how man could be faulted for children dying in an earthquake.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: gonegolfing on October 07, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
@ gonegolfing

Exactly, Christians call it 'Judgement Day'

[modbreak]Unnecessary quoting removed[/modbreak]


huh  :shrug .....what quoting was removed ?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_A25 on October 07, 2010, 12:40:48 PM
Your post was probably quoted in toto.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 12:46:34 PM
Your post was probably quoted in toto.

What does Mark wearing ballerina clothing have to do with the discussion.  :D

Sorry, lame joke A25.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 12:47:00 PM

Then you are not looking very deep.

A) Yes, you would. But, they would get in trouble anyway

But you wouldn't kill them yourself just because they did OR if they were rude to you.

B) Free will, what a bitch.

Unfortunately, if a god-being is "all knowing" then "free will" is pointless. Because if you as the god-being already know what the person will do, then what is the point? You knew that person would do and behave like that before that person was even born (theoretically) so you simply set in place a person who was going to do what he was going to do regardless of anything else.

C) ??? I would call these natural results of evolution. Of course, intra-species evolution which I don't believe contradicts Biblical creation.

Oh, that's a new one. "Intra-species" evolution.


ANd I would respectfully request that the mods confirm this is not a sock of snoopingaround.

A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.
B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.
C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_A25 on October 07, 2010, 12:49:34 PM
Your post was probably quoted in toto.

What does Mark wearing ballerina clothing have to do with the discussion.  :D

Sorry, lame joke A25.

Hahah, that would be "in tutu," Emily!
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 12:57:43 PM
My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

Exactly! I mean God is the one who set up this idiotic system that would allow that kind of horror and pain and suffering and misery. And what's worse is that we're only talking about the kids that die from starvation!

How about the stats for all the children that die of cancer, in car wrecks, earthquakes, backyard swimming pools, river floods, blizzards... The list goes on and on.

That's a LOT of bad things. And I don't see how man could be faulted for children dying in an earthquake.

Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.


Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 07, 2010, 01:02:45 PM
markinark = SnoopingAround = UniversityPastor?


If someone has access to multiple IP addresses, even the mods can't prove whether or not it's the same person. :shrug
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_011 on October 07, 2010, 01:05:30 PM
huh  :shrug .....what quoting was removed ?

Everything you quoted and replied to in this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg360323#msg360323), that Markinark needlessly reposted to add a one-liner.


Eleven.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 01:10:40 PM
markinark = SnoopingAround = UniversityPastor?


If someone has access to multiple IP addresses, even the mods can't prove whether or not it's the same person. :shrug

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Grimm on October 07, 2010, 01:14:34 PM


A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.
UNLESS:
 - You knew your son was prone to drunk driving.
 - You knew he'd been drinking.
 - And when he was drunk, heading out the door, you handed him the keys to the car instead of saying no.

God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent - it says so right there on the label!  Don't you think he'd be able to politely inform your son that he's had enough and he's not going anywhere until he sleeps it off?

Honestly.  Is your god so weak?
Quote
B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.

In what way?  The free will to choose between fawning worship and eternal death?  "Love me or I will set you afire?"  Honestly.  What sort of entity offers only the dichotomy of 'cake or death'?  My way or the highway!  DIE INFIDEL!

No, thank you.  Besides, your God doesn't give anyone free will - and if you assume he didn't create Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, no matter how metaphorical it all is, without knowing what would come of all of that, and without pointing out to people that had no conception of right and wrong (after all, wasn't the tree representative of that?) what 'wrong' is... well, y' know?  You're something of a fool.

Your god MADE the very evil you claim is man's fault, in full foreknowledge of what would come of it, by your own mythology.  Is he so powerless as to not have been able to make it another way?

Quote
C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_ancestor - look at the cladogram to the right.

Bluntly, your lack of knowledge of genetics, evolutionary theory, and current biological understanding does not combine with your incredulity to make anything remotely resembling a real point.  If you'd like to know when apes separated from bears, I'd suggest reading up on it.  You might just be astounded.

For instance, did you know that we can pinpoint the moment when 'humanity' became chromosomally distinct?  True story!  We know when your greatgreatgreat(adinfinitum)grandfather became a new sort of primate!

But.  Until you understand that you don't even have the basis from which to understand the data, there's almost no point, wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 07, 2010, 01:16:39 PM
Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.

here we go with the Christian who attempts to claim that atheists don't want God around since we all want to be ravening maniacs. Too bad that is a pathetic strawman argument.

Per your own bible, Mark, God is indeed "doing" everything to us.  Your god supposed set in motion the entire thing, it established the game and the rules. Your god intended the "train wreck".  If not, your god ceases to be the entity that the bible claims it is.  Which would you prefer? A god not as your holy book claims or to admit that your god is responsible for everything?  Christians like both, from what we've seen here, depending on the corner they paint themselves into.  

As I have stated, there is nothing about free will in your book.  There can't be with a god that interferes constantly, that is omniscient *and* is blatantly stated as making some people only for damnation.  
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 07, 2010, 01:23:40 PM
A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.
Have you read your bible? Doesn't seem so.

In the bible God actively kills humans, who he supposedly "loves like a father would love his children." Not to mention all the times he orders his followers to commit genocide, rape and enslave others.

Quote
B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.
Another Christian who does not understand what it means if there's an omniscient creator around. If the creator is omniscient, then the creatures created have no free will. The only thing such creatures have is the illusion of having free will.


Quote
C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.
I think you should read a book like "Evolution for Dummies." If you truly think your question has any relation to the actual theory of evolution, you have a lot of learning to do.

Quote
Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday.
Funny thing is, that I was never asked if I wanted to take a bite of some knowledge-fruit.

Tell me, if I come to your house to arrest you and your family for a crime of which I say your ancestor committed during the dark ages, would you object?

If your answer is Yes, then I must ask why you think punishing all humans for the actions of two humans can be considered just and good, if it's your god who's doing the punishing?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 07, 2010, 01:24:58 PM
Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.

                                                                 -and-

In other words, atheists, as logically uncompromising individuals, seem to have a problem with the implications of Job and Romans 9.


Same idiot, different name.

"Hate the idiot, not the name."  :D
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Graybeard on October 07, 2010, 01:26:12 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
1. Loving - Deut. 32:39: See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Chron. 15:13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Doesn't seem loving to me...

All knowing: Ge:3:9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? Why didn't He know?

Intelligent God or gods?: 1Ki:7:23: And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. Pi does not equal 3...
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: snkiesch on October 07, 2010, 01:26:22 PM
Calvinists say your wrong, Romans 9 says your wrong. So markinmark is another of the true christians who's god's ways are above ours that we can not understand but markinmark does.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Emily on October 07, 2010, 01:40:05 PM
paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 07, 2010, 02:21:48 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.

If there is an all-loving God, then what is loving about diseases, murders,child molestation, wars, famine, poverty, and prejudice? And don't tell me that it's because of sin. Give me a credible detail as to why your God would do this.

If the God is all knowing, then why would he punish what he already knew was going to happen? "I knew this child is going to be an atheist, but i'm going to torment him for all eternity in hell." "I knew that this young girl will become a lesbian, but i will burn her forever."

If the God is all powerful, then why hadn't he prevented the devil from making us sin?

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 02:27:06 PM

If there is an all-loving God, then what is loving about diseases, murders,child molestation, wars, famine, poverty, and prejudice? And don't tell me that it's because of sin. Give me a credible detail as to why your God would do this.

It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.


Quote from: Timtheskeptic
If the God is all knowing, then why would he punish what he already knew was going to happen? "I knew this child is going to be an atheist, but i'm going to torment him for all eternity in hell." "I knew that this young girl will become a lesbian, but i will burn her forever."


Do you have kids?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 02:30:06 PM

A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.

Well, SnoopingAround, we're not talking about something as passive as that. We're talking active actions here, by your supposedly "loving" god-being.

Your "loving" god-being murders, maims, and orders the murder, maiming and raping, of completely innocent people and children.

B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.
It's pointless for both, and you know that, hence the snarky meaningless comment.

There can be no free will if you are claiming an all-knowing god-being. They are mutually exclusive. Because if the god-being knows how you will react, and knows everything that you will do under all circumstances, then you have no free will. It's all already been set for you.

C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.


How about between an ape and man? We share an ancestor, and there are numerous fossil records for that. There is even one way back for bears and humans (most all land mammals).

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 02:30:47 PM
paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 02:32:01 PM
markinark = SnoopingAround = UniversityPastor?


If someone has access to multiple IP addresses, even the mods can't prove whether or not it's the same person. :shrug

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's neither paranoid or a conspiracy.

But it changes the discussion because talking to liars is not only not fun, but it's counter productive, especially when the liar is a Liar For ChristTM.


Edited to fix a word.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: gonegolfing on October 07, 2010, 02:34:56 PM
@ gonegolfing

Exactly, Christians call it 'Judgement Day'

[modbreak]Unnecessary quoting removed[/modbreak]


Quote
huh   .....what quoting was removed ?

Everything you quoted and replied to in this post, that Markinark needlessly reposted to add a one-liner.


Eleven.


Markinark I'm not quite sure what your comment is referring to about my post. Care to elaborate a little more ?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 02:36:12 PM
Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.





Free will is impossible with an all-knowing god-being.

In fact, even in the myth that is the story of Adam and Eve the bible-god knew that adam and eve were going to do what they did. After all, he is all knowing.

So the bible-god punishes every other creature allegedly born of adam and eve's DNA because they simply did what he knew they were going to do.

It's such a circular logic that it's indefensible.

People die. Animals die. Plants die. Animals and plants didn't "offend" the bible-god's sensibilities at all, yet, living things that they are, they die too.

The fact is that there is no second tier.

This is it. What life we have here is all there is.

We can make of it what we want. Being creatures borne of instinct, for the most part, we want to continue the existence of the species and many of our actions move us in that direction.

God-beings have nothing to do with it.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 07, 2010, 02:36:57 PM
If there is an all-loving God, then what is loving about diseases, murders,child molestation, wars, famine, poverty, and prejudice? And don't tell me that it's because of sin. Give me a credible detail as to why your God would do this.

It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.

That's right-- The deal is you either do what God says or he's going to kick your ass. But you have the "free will" to choose between getting your ass kicked or being a slave to god. Not much of a choice, really, but I guess God isn't beyond a little extortion as long as he gets his way.

...Or something like that.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 02:39:58 PM
"There can be no free will if you are claiming an all-knowing god-being. They are mutually exclusive. Because if the god-being knows how you will react, and knows everything that you will do under all circumstances, then you have no free will. It's all already been set for you."

How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it? Is this a specific knowledge or a general outcome knowledge? And if He knows the outcome, He must be ok with it.

"C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.

"How about between an ape and man? We share an ancestor, and there are numerous fossil records for that. There is even one way back for bears and humans (most all land mammals)."

According to the Bible, all land animals were made from the earth/dirt/firma. I don't doubt they have common DNA. But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer. Or, a single happen stance mixing of amino acids and proteins which then evolved, through natural survival of the fittest selection, into all life as we know it. Take your pick.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 02:40:09 PM

It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.

No, assuming one believes the myths and legends in the collection of fairy tales that you call the bible, it is the "death" bible-god CREATED for man . . . not "predicted." Silly Mark. If bible-god is all-knowing then it not only knows what adam/eve were going to do, it also knew that it would punish with "death" to begin with.

In other words, bible-god rigged the game



Do you have kids?


Yes. And grand kids. And I don't torture them when they don't bow down to me or when they call me bad names.

Biblegod ordered death to anyone who used his name in vain. Nice loving parent, no?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 07, 2010, 02:41:19 PM
It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.
Oh, how do you know that it was death that a God predict? Did you ask him? Surely, if he’s all knowing, then he would know what is already going to happen, not just death.


Quote
Do you have kids?


No, and I don’t plan on having any kids. If you were referring that if I have children who are gay, atheist, Hindu or whatever would I accept them, then the anwer is yes. I don’t think that if a God is all-loving he would torture his children for using free will that they have or for being gay or for choosing to believe whatever they want to believe. Tell me, would you kill your children for their homosexuality or for thinking for themselves?

“You can do whatever you want my son, you can even be whoever you want. But if you do, I will make your life a living hell. It’s your choice and I love you very much, but I will burn you if you don’t do things my way.”
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 02:42:25 PM
paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.

No. Because if you are a sock, you are being duplicitous.

I, for one, don't care for that kind of sneakiness.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 07, 2010, 02:45:33 PM
An all-loving god would not create people he omni-knows are going to suffer eternally. Only an omni-malevolent entity would pimp out His whores to worship His selfish ass in exchange for not being tortured forever.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 02:51:13 PM
The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.

Mankind continues to reproduce with full knowledge the world is full of pain, suffering and death. I don't suppose God's reasons for creating us with the potential to suffer is any different than bearing children into a world full of murder, rape, natural disaster or any other peril.

We do it out of love for each other and a desire to love our creation. But, each child has the potential (free will) to 'eff it up.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 02:52:26 PM
paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.

No. Because if you are a sock, you are being duplicitous.

I, for one, don't care for that kind of sneakiness.

Yea, but I'm not. So you are just being paranoid and avoiding the topic.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 07, 2010, 02:53:23 PM
Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: nogodsforme on October 07, 2010, 02:54:45 PM
This markinark (catinhat? hoponpop?) is as slippery as they come. God is in charge, so he gets the credit whenever something good happens. Humans are in charge, so they get the blame whenever something bad happens. Which is it? Who is running this show?

Who is to blame for the earthquake in Haiti and the floods in Pakistan? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who is to blame for a baby born without a brain who suffers and dies a horrible death? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who gets the credit if I win the lottery? Loving god, right? Of course.
Who gets the blame if I am shot to death on my way to cash in the winning ticket? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Whatever. :shrug
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 07, 2010, 03:00:44 PM
The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.


Your sky-pimp is the one doing the instructing, as well as the punishing. It's an either-or situation. Either you whore yourself, or be bitch-slapped for all eternity.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 03:03:03 PM
Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  

Didn't say God interfered.

Your fate based on your choices not adam/eve's. You are in this world because of their choices. But, you make the same choices everyday. You make decisions which have consequences. Bad decisions are bad because they cause someone pain/suffering. Good choices are for the benefit of others before yourself or, at worst, neutral.

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 03:04:12 PM
This markinark (catinhat? hoponpop?) is as slippery as they come. God is in charge, so he gets the credit whenever something good happens. Humans are in charge, so they get the blame whenever something bad happens. Which is it? Who is running this show?

Who is to blame for the earthquake in Haiti and the floods in Pakistan? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who is to blame for a baby born without a brain who suffers and dies a horrible death? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who gets the credit if I win the lottery? Loving god, right? Of course.
Who gets the blame if I am shot to death on my way to cash in the winning ticket? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Whatever. :shrug

Trite. I think the BIG picture covers stuff after the little stuff.

If you can see, do you credit the light? If you can't, would you credit the dark? Could be, it is just the way it is.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 07, 2010, 03:04:29 PM
How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it? Is this a specific knowledge or a general outcome knowledge? And if He knows the outcome, He must be ok with it.
You don't seem to grasp what omniscience means.

If there's an omniscient entity it already knows what I am going to do long in advance. The problem is, that I can do nothing else, otherwise said entity would not be omniscient. It knows with absolute certainty, which in turn locks all the events and happenings it knows about. Now even though I know nothing about this, my actions are still locked. No matter if I feel like having free will, the outcome of all my actions is already fixed. My decisions and my opinions on things are fixed.

It gets worse if said entity is not only omniscient but also the creator of everything, which is like Christians attribute their god; omniscient and the creator of everything. But an omniscient creator not only knows what is going to happen, an omniscient creator made the world in such a way that the things it knows are going to happen.

As an example this creator would know that little Harry will not believe in him which in turn leads to little Harry's eternal damnation. But this creator would still create a world in which little Harry will not believe in him because he knows it's going to be that way, which means the creator not only has everything scripted in his mind, he creates a world in which said script will actually happen without any way to break out of it.

If there is an omniscient creator god (which you say God is) then there is no free will. We only have the illusion of free will.


Oh, and if he's OK with it, that means said god created a version of the world knowing it would mean endless torture for uncounted billions of his "beloved" children, but he's perfectly OK with it despite having the power tocreate the world differently.

Quote
According to the Bible, all land animals were made from the earth/dirt/firma.
Which is already wrong because despite being solid creatures we are quite watery. The beginning of all life was in the water.

Quote
But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer.
In this case you'll have to ask yourself what kind of shitty designer that would have been, since there are a lot of design flaws present, which would point to a completely incompetent designer if you insist there was one.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 03:09:57 PM
The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.

Sorry. Wrong answer.

Of the millions upon millions and billions actually that bible god has killed, there are millions upon millions, if not billions, who even know bible-god has a story or myth where it is the star.

Epic fail.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 03:10:41 PM
paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.

No. Because if you are a sock, you are being duplicitous.

I, for one, don't care for that kind of sneakiness.

Yea, but I'm not. So you are just being paranoid and avoiding the topic.

Wrong, I am responding to you, even though I know you are lying.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Whateverman on October 07, 2010, 03:10:47 PM
"There can be no free will if you are claiming an all-knowing god-being. They are mutually exclusive. Because if the god-being knows how you will react, and knows everything that you will do under all circumstances, then you have no free will. It's all already been set for you."

How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it?
You need to think of it differently, imho.  It's not that God's omniscience forces us to act (though you could make that argument).

Instead, "free will" is often raised by theists when they're questioned about divine punishment.  We 'choose' to sin, rather than adhering to God's rules - and we're punished for this choice.  If God's omniscient, he knows long before we're born that we're going to be worthy of punishment, and thus, we really can't choose anything.  We can do nothing other than the thing we're destined to do - and this makes 'punishment' for things we can't change seem less like justice and more like malice.

Simply put, if God knows I'm going to sin, I have no power to choose to NOT sin.

That is what people refer to when they describe His omniscience as destroying our free will.  
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 07, 2010, 03:11:51 PM
The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

Uh... Actually, there's no difference between those things. Nothing worth mentioning, anyway.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.

Who cares if you're going to get your ass kicked for not following it?

I don't suppose God's reasons for creating us with the potential to suffer is any different than bearing children into a world full of murder, rape, natural disaster or any other peril.

lol, the difference is that an omnipotent god doesn't HAVE to make people who don't follow his instructions suffer. Isn't he the most powerful thing ever? Why not make it so that six million children don't die of starvation every year. You know, I think that is something like one child dying of starvation every 5 seconds?

We do it out of love for each other and a desire to love our creation. But, each child has the potential (free will) to 'eff it up.

Free will is a bogus explanation. It isn't free will if god is going to kick your ass for not getting things done the way he wants them done.

If someone held a gun to your head an told you your choice is to give up all your money or die, would you say you have the "free will" to choose? When the cops came would you refuse to prosecute because you were given free will to choose? I doubt it.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 03:12:44 PM
If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.




Again, UniversityPastor, there is no such being, so there will be no such "hell."

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 03:22:07 PM
How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it? Is this a specific knowledge or a general outcome knowledge? And if He knows the outcome, He must be ok with it.
You don't seem to grasp what omniscience means.

Yeah, it's a word defined by man which I suspect doesn't quite cover God. You are still free to choose.

Quote
Oh, and if he's OK with it, that means said god created a version of the world knowing it would mean endless torture for uncounted billions of his "beloved" children, but he's perfectly OK with it despite having the power tocreate the world differently.

Yet, we continue to bring children into this world everyday. Not that we created it, but we are fully aware of it. I believe God created us in love knowing full well the potential for pain and suffering. I'm confident it will be worth it.

Quote
According to the Bible, all land animals were made from the earth/dirt/firma.

Quote
Which is already wrong because despite being solid creatures we are quite watery. The beginning of all life was in the water.
Water=universal ingredient. Earth=different. Some stuff from water; some stuff from water+earth.  

Quote
But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer.

Quote
In this case you'll have to ask yourself what kind of shitty designer that would have been, since there are a lot of design flaws present, which would point to a completely incompetent designer if you insist there was one.


Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.

[modbreak]Fixed quoting[/modbreak]
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 07, 2010, 03:24:13 PM
Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  
Didn't say God interfered.

Your fate based on your choices not adam/eve's. You are in this world because of their choices. But, you make the same choices everyday. You make decisions which have consequences. Bad decisions are bad because they cause someone pain/suffering. Good choices are for the benefit of others before yourself or, at worst, neutral.

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

No, you didn't say that God interfered. I did. You may wish to read my posts more closely. Your bible claims he has again and again. How does that work with free will, when an omnipotent being interferes with the beings that supposedly have free will?  God has supposedly interfered in human events, battles, etc.  When he does, that eliminates the free will of those who would oppose him.  

So, you don't beleive in original sin?  Interesting since so many Christians do.  How do you know your version of Christianity is the "right" one?  

You seem to wish to claim that God cannot be around evil. But again your bible says that this isn't true.  In fact your god created evil and hangs around with beings that are evil.  How can that be if what you claim is true?  Why does your God need evil to accomplish what it wants to have happen?  

I'll have to say, I don't think you are sock puppet.  There are many of you in the world.  It's a faint hope that we would have one that is just trying to reappear on the forums without addressing abandoned threads.

EDIT: you also seem to be unaware of how the universe is made up if you want ot claim that anything on earth or earth itself is in anyway "different" from any "universal ingredient". 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 03:28:33 PM
Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.


Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 07, 2010, 03:29:26 PM
If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.
Ooh, I nearly missed that gem.

Tell me if God is pure good, then how come

a) he's not only the creator of evil  
(2 Kings 6:33, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6)

b) but he also has these constant urges to do evil, which he needs to repent for all the time?
(Exodus 32:14, 2 Samuel 24:16, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Jeremaih 18:8, Jeremaih 26:3, Jeremiah 26:13, Jeremiah 26:19, Jeremaih 42:10, Amos 7:3, 6, Jonah 3:10)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 07, 2010, 03:32:23 PM
Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.

The design mechanism is solid, but eventually fucked up the environment.

I see. The God of the Bible is real. Amen. &)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 03:35:46 PM
Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  
Didn't say God interfered.

Your fate based on your choices not adam/eve's. You are in this world because of their choices. But, you make the same choices everyday. You make decisions which have consequences. Bad decisions are bad because they cause someone pain/suffering. Good choices are for the benefit of others before yourself or, at worst, neutral.

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

No, you didn't say that God interfered. I did. You may wish to read my posts more closely. Your bible claims he has again and again. How does that work with free will, when an omnipotent being interferes with the beings that supposedly have free will?  God has supposedly interfered in human events, battles, etc.  When he does, that eliminates the free will of those who would oppose him.  

So, you don't beleive in original sin?  Interesting since so many Christians do.  How do you know your version of Christianity is the "right" one?  

You seem to wish to claim that God cannot be around evil. But again your bible says that this isn't true.  In fact your god created evil and hangs around with beings that are evil.  How can that be if what you claim is true?  Why does your God need evil to accomplish what it wants to have happen?  

I'll have to say, I don't think you are sock puppet.  There are many of you in the world.  It's a faint hope that we would have one that is just trying to reappear on the forums without addressing abandoned threads.

EDIT: you also seem to be unaware of how the universe is made up if you want ot claim that anything on earth or earth itself is in anyway "different" from any "universal ingredient". 

No, those in battle against the Jews had made their choices to be in battle against the Jews.
Yes, I believe in the original sin and everyone since then.
God 'hangs' around with evil or is aware of evil and can communicate with it?

Water, then water and dirt. They aren't mutually exclusive, just more.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 03:37:22 PM
Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.


Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

Which part of earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides altered your DNA?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 07, 2010, 03:39:27 PM
Which part of fucking up left us with a vestigial tail and appendix?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: pingnak on October 07, 2010, 03:47:30 PM
I doubt all your stupid gods, and other gods you never even heard of.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Grimm on October 07, 2010, 03:47:44 PM
Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.


Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

Which part of earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides altered your DNA?


Why didn't the Chineese notice the Flood?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 03:59:15 PM
Which part of fucking up left us with a vestigial tail and appendix?

Not all mutation/evolution is the result of fucking up. Some shit just happens.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 07, 2010, 04:00:04 PM
Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.


Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

Which part of earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides altered your DNA?


Why didn't the Chineese notice the Flood?

I googled. You're right. There has never been a flood in China. Hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 04:04:04 PM
Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.


Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

Which part of earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides altered your DNA?

Which parts kill millions of people and kids at a time?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 07, 2010, 04:07:51 PM
Yeah, it's a word defined by man which I suspect doesn't quite cover God. You are still free to choose.
It's nice to see you are another Christian being quite selective in what you answer to. Cutting out the large chunk of my post where I show your concept of God to be faulty and then say "Nu-uh, it's still the way I want it to be" is not gonna fly here.


Does God know everything? Yes or No

Is God the creator of everything? Yes or No



Quote
Yet, we continue to bring children into this world everyday. Not that we created it, but we are fully aware of it. I believe God created us in love knowing full well the potential for pain and suffering. I'm confident it will be worth it.
As it has already been said: The difference is that God supposedly created this world.

That means he willingly and knowingly created a world dooming uncounted billions to neverending torture. He did not just know about it he wanted it that way!

Quote
Water=universal ingredient. Earth=different. Some stuff from water; some stuff from water+earth.
Moving the goal post.

You and the bible say ground creatures are made from dirt, which simply is not true.

Quote
But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer.

Quote
Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.
Tell me in which way the environmental change led to humans

- having wisdom teeth that often don't fit into the mouth, causing abscesses which in turn can also cause damage to the jaw and even the brain

- having the testicles outside the male body

- having our abdomen completely unprotected

- having an appendix which is not only useless for humans but can actually kill them if not medically extracted.

- having a pelvis in females that is too small for babies heads, often causing injuries during birth

- having hip joints that are more suited for walking on all fours but that damage easily and are prone to deteriorate with age when installed in a biped (which would be us)

- having DNA which causes congenital birth effects leading to babies born with partial gills or tumors of notochord (a type of tissue we don't need at all because we have a spine out of bone. It's only found in ancient animals before the development of the spine of bone)

- having poorly designed foot and ankle bones that would be fine in a quadruped but cause problems if used in a biped.

- having large veins in our legs that can clog up and send out blood clogs to the lungs and brain.

- having semi soft disc material in our spine and neck which is fine for quadrupeds but unsuitable for bipeds because it will be compressed by the body weight too much and can cause painful traumas.

- etc, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 07, 2010, 04:08:40 PM
Which part of fucking up left us with a vestigial tail and appendix?

Not all mutation/evolution is the result of fucking up. Some shit just happens.

I guess your sky-pimp isn't perfect after all, huh? I mean, you'd think he'd a seen that coming.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Azdgari on October 07, 2010, 04:08:48 PM
I googled. You're right. There has never been a flood in China. Hmmmmmm

Perhaps you aren't used to people capitalizing proper nouns, but "the Flood" refers to the Biblical flood.  As in, the one that supposedly killed almost everyone on Earth.

The Chinese didn't notice that one.  Now that you have had this explained to you, do you have a more intelligent response?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 04:12:10 PM
I guess your sky-pimp isn't perfect after all, huh? I mean, you'd think he'd a seen that coming.



Given the claim that it is "all knowing" 'n all.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Grimm on October 07, 2010, 04:18:53 PM
I googled. You're right. There has never been a flood in China. Hmmmmmm

Perhaps you aren't used to people capitalizing proper nouns, but "the Flood" refers to the Biblical flood.  As in, the one that supposedly killed almost everyone on Earth.

The Chinese didn't notice that one.  Now that you have had this explained to you, do you have a more intelligent response?

I honestly doubt he will - but I wait with baited breath.

Oooh!  We could ask him about the Badari!  Or.. or maybe the Cree indian culture with its barter economy up by the Great Lakes?

Would you care for popcorn?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 07, 2010, 04:32:05 PM

Hello.

1.  My questions are sincere.  I am not a troll.

Please provide evidence that you are not.


People say this all the time, but I literally just choked on my rum & diet. I snort/laughed first, then tried to catch my breath, and the drink went back down my nose while I dribbled booze into my lap.

It was very undignified, and yet so worth it.

God damn, I love you Miss Gimpy.  :D  :-*
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: jetson on October 07, 2010, 04:33:59 PM

Hello.  Thanks for your reply.  I am very appreciative.  Can you please be more detailed, if you don't mind?  You are making lots of claims ("all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans", "all gods are imaginary, human inventions", etc - how can you possibly know this?) without providing the evidence or reasons to support them. Religions do exactly the same as this, don't they?  I don't believe in God or gods or Satan, etc, yet I don't really have any reasons for my disbelief, other than the fact I have never experienced these things with my human senses/and because these charcaters don't seem convincing to me. I recognise that these views alone to not proof that these characters do not exist.  I want to be sure that my disbelief in God/Satan is founded on good reason and evidence. Telling me that "there's no evidence" or that "they are all myths" does not tell me anything other than you are not convinced.  I need actual examples backed by science/reason.  Please, if you don't mind and have the time, can you give me clear/testable factual and logical reasons to my question ("Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent.."). Thanks for helping me.  It means a great deal.

Why do you need reasons and evidence for a DIS-belief?  If there is simply no evidence for a thing, there is really no reason at all to looking for evidence of it's NON-existence.  We call that "proving a negative", and it is rarely a necessary thing in the real world.

Many theists ask us to prove there is no god.  And we simply don't bother replying in general because it is a pointless exercise.  Rather, in your case, you would simply remain atheist, or perhaps agnostic, until such a time that positive evidence surfaces that shows there is or might be a real god.  Since that has never happened throughout history, including for each and every god ever posited, then what reason is there to DIS-prove them - any or all of them?

I was called out on this forum when I made the claim that all gods are imaginary, and my point was that there is no reason to DIS-prove all gods, but the argument towards me was that I must state that it is only my opinion, since I could not prove that all gods are imaginary.  I can understand that argument, but as a matter of practicality, no evidence of any real god is equal to all gods are imaginary, even though I cannot prove that all gods are indeed imaginary.

I may have been wrong for making such a BOLD claim, but it makes no difference at all, when in fact no real evidence for any real god has ever surfaced.  If any gods were ever real, there would be some demonstrable evidence for them, and I would be inclined to change my argument.  That's how it works.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Gimpy on October 07, 2010, 07:10:23 PM
God damn, I love you Miss Gimpy.  :D  :-*

Anytime. And as luck would have it, rum & diet is one of my go-to nightcaps!
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: xphobe on October 07, 2010, 07:13:13 PM
Man, where do these guys come from? 

@Asmoday, I like that list.  Is there a comprehensive "God's Greatest Fuckups" somewhere?  Some others I'd include are:

A spine that makes sense for a quadruped but not for an upright biped.

An optic nerve that passes through the retina and terminates in the front side, causing all kinds of potential problems.

And my personal favorite cos I'm over 40....;)

A prostate gland through which pass all kinds of excretory and reproductive tubes, blood vessels and nerves.  If it only gets enlarged, you have the pleasure of getting your pecker roto-rootered with little razor blades.  If it actually turns cancerous, the doc has to cut it out, with a very good chance of rendering you impotent, incontinent or both, and even a possibility of bleeding to death.  I want a word with the incompetent assclown who designed that one.

Course it's all our fault due to man's sin nature... &)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: jetson on October 07, 2010, 07:16:22 PM
Assclown and asshat.  I like them both.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intellige
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 07, 2010, 08:40:09 PM
Heck, I've been gone a few days. To the OP. I DON'T doubt the existence of the loving, all knowing, intelligent critter you're asking about. I KNOW no such thing exists.

That way I don't have to make up crap to counter made up crap. Makes my life so much easier.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_020 on October 07, 2010, 09:00:14 PM
Hi marrkinark,

welcome to our forum.  I am glad to see you participating.  However, it did not escape me that your posts are rather lean on explanations and heavy on attitude.  As an example, I quoted this exchange:

Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.


Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

Which part of earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides altered your DNA?


Why didn't the Chineese notice the Flood?

I googled. You're right. There has never been a flood in China. Hmmmmmm

You may think you are being glib, but that is not how it is being received.  You come off as hostile and cocky.  It is also a blatant dodge that does not address the point. 

I would like to suggest that you try having a conversation rather than firing off one liners.  It would make your stay here longer, more productive and more pleasant for everyone.   I give you this advice in the hopes that you will be a solid, contributing member. 

You will probably want to review this Introduction for Christians (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=228.0), the Forum Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0), the Etiquette Guide (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3997.0) and definitely the Quoting FAQ (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0).

happy posting
020
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: ksm on October 08, 2010, 05:58:02 AM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

I'm sorry, but the amazing lack of evidence is sufficient reason for anyone to not bother with believing in leprechauns, fairies, the Loch-Ness monster, and unicorns.

Why is "no evidence" not a sufficient answer when it comes to invisible, intangible, ineffectual sky-spirits?

Do you believe that there are sentient alien life on Mars? Why not? Lack of evidence perhaps?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 08, 2010, 08:24:52 AM
No, those in battle against the Jews had made their choices to be in battle against the Jews.
Yes, and if there were free will, the Israelites would have had to fight them with no omnipotent being on their side affecting the outcome.  Get it?  

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Yes, I believe in the original sin and everyone since then.
then how does free will work if I am damned for something I didnt' do?  

Quote
God 'hangs' around with evil or is aware of evil and can communicate with it?
Per your bible, but you claimed it doesn't say that.  You said
Quote
If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him.
If evilseperates me from God, why doesn't it seperate much more evil things from God?  Hmmm?  Why is God so chummy with evil?

Quote
Water, then water and dirt. They aren't mutually exclusive, just more.
what are you trying to say?  You make no sense at all.  You have claimed that earth is special and that water is somehow "univeral".  You are wrong. I do love how you seem to be trying to backpedal from your own words. Not suprising.  
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on October 09, 2010, 11:21:38 PM
You know,I think I'm starting to develop a theory. I think that maybe all of these theists that come here are actually just one single theist. Some guy or girl in a basement at their mothers place with nothing better to do than develop twenty or thirty different accounts on a discussion board and constantly make vacuous comments without point or substance in an attempt to justify their existence. Either that or there was originally only one theist, but as the others get banned or leave the board they're attacked and absorbed by a great religious mass in an effort to create a protoform "super-theist", in the hopes of one day making an argument for god that held up under scrutiny for more than a few seconds.

I'm curious Markinark, exactly how do you reconcile original sin with having free will? If we're automatically condemned to hell then even if we are given an opportunity to choose to get out the simple fact that we are initially condemned through no fault or action of our own already takes the idea of free will out back behind the shed and violates it. For that matter any kind of punishment inflicted on us for doing things negates the idea of any free will. What you're referring to would better be described as 'circumstantial will'.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: xphobe on October 10, 2010, 08:22:22 AM
Either that or there was originally only one theist, but as the others get banned or leave the board they're attacked and absorbed by a great religious mass in an effort to create a protoform "super-theist"

Kinda like the big Bug in Starship Troopers.  Or better yet, like a slime mold.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 10, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
You know,I think I'm starting to develop a theory. I think that maybe all of these theists that come here are actually just one single theist.

I think that we all hope this.  We desperately want to think that people are intelligent, that there couldn't possibly be that many people who cling to a primitive, tribal superstition that glorifies ignorance.  But unfortunately there really are. 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 10, 2010, 12:44:52 PM
No, those in battle against the Jews had made their choices to be in battle against the Jews.
Yes, and if there were free will, the Israelites would have had to fight them with no omnipotent being on their side affecting the outcome.  Get it?  

Velkyn, that was beautiful.

I would like to add:

The little children and babies of those in battle against the Jews had no choice, you stupid asshole!!!
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 10, 2010, 03:46:50 PM
thank you. and your addition is indeed apropo.   :)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 11, 2010, 12:02:51 PM
My opinion:

God is the creator of the known universe
God is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.
As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior. So before you whine about the 'sins of my fathers', understand you have a way to reverse this unfavorable outcome of an others actions. Similar to your Dad moving you to California from New York.  When California falls off into the ocean as a result of an Earthquake, you will perish along with dear old dad unless you choose to move back to New York. If this occurs before you are old enough to be on your own, your life sucks. In Goddom, He makes an exception and you're good to go. This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

The old Testament offer was adherence to the 'laws'/'promises' of God to Abraham and his descendants who were believing and faithful to God.

The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

Did the great Flood actually kill everything on the Earth except Noah and his ark?

I have no freaking idea. To the writers, the answer would be a definite 'yes'. But in actuality, it really doesn't make much difference. The point of the story is evil will perish. It is an inevitable end to this physical realm.

The universe is destined to die. Black hole, supernova, collapsing universe; something will cause the end.  Maybe surviving this is a +/-, yin/yang, light/dark kind of thing. If you choose a path that leaves you separate from God, you're not gonna like the place you wind up (the whole 'Hell' thing). I don't know how that works, but I don't want to find out either. I trust my FATHER to tell me how to avoid it just as I trusted my mother when she told me the stove was hot.

I search for eternal truth, not facts. I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit. It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value. Adherence to the 'truths' of the Bible helps me to be compassionate to my fellow man. And yes, you can live your life very much like this without God. You can be kind, compassionate and loving toward your fellow man. However, if God is God, you will be miming the words, but missing the big picture. How will God deal with that? I have no idea. But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Omen on October 11, 2010, 12:10:26 PM
Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague.

Please don't say the most obvious point of all?

Let me see if I got this right.

"Why do you doubt the existence of a [cultural superstitious belief based on incoherent attributes and arbitrarily assumed as not only existent but self evident outside of any intellectual or logical reason to do so]?"

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Omen on October 11, 2010, 12:24:44 PM
My opinion:

God is the creator of the known universe
God is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.
As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

An arbitrary list of fantasy things you believe in without explanation, is this your idea of a coherent intellectual argument for anything?

How and why do you expect to be taken seriously with this stuff?

Quote
When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

The only thing freewill necessitates is the ability to make choice without burden, otherwise it is a vapid apologetic excuse. ( ie pleading the problem away )

The only logical response is to point out that a perfect all powerful being could just as easily create perfect free will.  If free will makes the obvious wrong choice, then it is in fact not perfect.  IE We would have to have as much 'perfect' free will as god would possess and thus we would never make an imperfect choice with imperfect free will.

Do you have an effective answer to the logical problem?

Quote
Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God.

God chose to expose mankind to evil and did not give mankind the perfect knowledge and understanding to know differently.

Quote
This caused the separation of Man from God.

Irrelevant myth making, serves no logical justification.

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Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

Irrelevant myth making, serves no logical justification.  God creates an imperfect paradise filled with imperfect beings, then punishes them for being imperfect.

Quote
Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith

God sends himself to sacrifice himself to himself to satisfy a loop hole in rules he himself created, in order to keep himself from punishing the imperfect beings he himself created in an imperfect environment and later punished for being imperfect.

This is exactly what you are describing, nothing of which can be defined or associated as 'love', 'empathy', 'compassion', or 'mercy'.  Instead we have other more accurate terms to describe such behavior; narcissistic, egotistical, psychotic, vain, insane, etc.  The god your myth describes is  antagonistic to human desires, emotions, and existence; it is in everyway racist, sexist, bigoted, vengeful, and hateful.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 11, 2010, 12:42:06 PM
When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior.

According to the qualities you ascribed your god in the beginning, this means that God created man knowing beforehand that man would screw up. If I created something and knew full well that there was a flaw in my design, I'd either change my design to ensure nobody got hurt or I'd reevaluate my standards for what is acceptable. I would not watch my creation go to pieces and then go, "Well, you screwed up, everyone head on over to Hell!"

Furthermore, I wouldn't send myself to sacrifice myself to appease myself for the rules I made. If I'm all powerful, I can simply say, "Hey guys, I screwed up there. You're all forgiven because I love you." But then, I guess I wouldn't be a perfect being if I made a mistake like that in the first place.

 
Quote
This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

"Merciful" is not torturing people for eternity over your own flawed design.

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The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

Baseless assertion.

Quote
The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

Did the great Flood actually kill everything on the Earth except Noah and his ark?

I have no freaking idea. To the writers, the answer would be a definite 'yes'. But in actuality, it really doesn't make much difference. The point of the story is evil will perish. It is an inevitable end to this physical realm.

If you have no freaking idea, how are you supposed to trust anything you read in there? How does anyone tell the difference between a parable and a literal story?


Quote
I search for eternal truth, not facts.

So I understand what you're saying, can you give me an example of a something that is a fact but is not a truth? I don't think I'm following here.

Quote
I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit.

And I want to believe candy rains from the sky. That doesn't mean it does.

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It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value.

Perhaps for you. Not so much for someone else.

Quote
But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

Huh?! For a myriad of reasons! If I'm a loving, compassionate, kind, and thoughtful human being, all it would take is a reading of the Old Testament to realize what an asshole the Christian god is! I'd take one look at it and go, "This is not who I am!"

I don't believe in genocide. I don't believe in slavery. I don't believe in sending people to be tortured forever at the whim of some deity who set up my situation in the first place, and on and on and on.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 11, 2010, 01:37:26 PM
Ashe:

God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

All choices involve consequences (burden).

Sacrifice:  I view the sacrifice of himself (son) necessary to balance the human flaw and insure repatriation with God. It is God going the extra mile to get man back to what is acceptable in spite of man's inadequacies.

It is not God torturing, it is just reality. See Satan.

The point isn't to tell the difference between parable and a literal story. The point is to discern truth from the parable/story.

A fact is truth. Truth may be understood without a step-by-step factual guide.

Candy from the sky:  You may. But even if it did rain from the sky. it doesn't really make a difference in the eternal scope of things, IMHO.

Again, death is not the end for God. I believe the Bible to say the suffering of eternity will outweigh the suffering of this world. Sometimes lessons are hard. The old Testament is full of suffering by ignoring God's direction. If I say you will die if you drive off a cliff and you do, I am honest and you chose badly.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: xphobe on October 11, 2010, 01:44:24 PM
I want to believe

You can stop right there.  The rest is background noise.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 11, 2010, 01:52:15 PM
^^^ I'm going to have to remember that, xphobe. I have several loved ones that believe because they want to believe, not because any of it makes sense. They will freely admit this...And then they will immediately start with the post hoc rationalizations and around and around we go.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: nogodsforme on October 11, 2010, 03:38:09 PM
I want to believe

You can stop right there.  The rest is background noise.
Ahhhhhhhhhhmen. Sung in B-flat.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 11, 2010, 04:27:58 PM
My opinion:

God is the creator of the known universe
God is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.
As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

And what evidence do you have that supports that?

Quote
When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Unfortunately, just because words on a piece of paper say this, doesn’t make it true. I could just as much as write, “There is a pink bunny rabbit that casts magic spells that created everything.”

When parents give birth to their children, they don’t threaten to torture them forever if they didn’t do things their way. That isn’t free will. That is manipulation and loaded choices.

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Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

So you’re saying that choosing to eat from a tree was their choice to be evil? So if the mother told her child that eating the cookie and yet disobeys her, it means that she chose to be evil? Sorry, but when children disobeys their parents, it’s not because they chose to be evil; they just didn’t understand why they can’t do what their parents forbade them from doing. Basically, Adam and Eve are just children who didn’t know right from wrong and yet they’re treated horribly and now everyone has to say, “Oh my, what an evil, wicked children they were.” That’s not love, that’s horrible and bad parenting. And besides, why punish someone for something they didn’t know in the first place?

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From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior.

So basically, the sky daddy decides to bring out the worst pain to Adam just for one little thing they didn’t understand and the only way for the sky daddy to forgive him is to do things his way and to accept the death of one man the sky daddy murders. Wonderful, your sky daddy is a sociopathic dictator and you want to worship that. Sorry, but I much rather hang out with Satan than your God. At least Satan has killed only ten people whereas your God murders millions.

Quote
So before you whine about the 'sins of my fathers', understand you have a way to reverse this unfavorable outcome of an others actions. Similar to your Dad moving you to California from New York.  When California falls off into the ocean as a result of an Earthquake, you will perish along with dear old dad unless you choose to move back to New York. If this occurs before you are old enough to be on your own, your life sucks. In Goddom, He makes an exception and you're good to go. This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

That makes no sense. In no way does that sound like we’re at fault if our daddy moves us to another state. If our dad makes his own choice, then he’s responsible for his actions alone, we have nothing to do with it. My folks moved us in Arizona, that’s not my choice, that’s theirs. Why should I have to be punished for something they did?

“Oh, your parents made their choice, but I’m gonna f**k you up along with them.” Yeah, real merciful.  *Rolls eyes*

Quote
The old Testament offer was adherence to the 'laws'/'promises' of God to Abraham and his descendants who were believing and faithful to God.

The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

Translation: “Oh look, words! On a piece of paper! It must be true!”

Quote
The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

Did the great Flood actually kill everything on the Earth except Noah and his ark?

I have no freaking idea. To the writers, the answer would be a definite 'yes'. But in actuality, it really doesn't make much difference. The point of the story is evil will perish. It is an inevitable end to this physical realm.

Translation: “Words! On a piece of paper! It has to be true because words are on a piece of paper!”

Quote
The universe is destined to die. Black hole, supernova, collapsing universe; something will cause the end.  Maybe surviving this is a +/-, yin/yang, light/dark kind of thing. If you choose a path that leaves you separate from God, you're not gonna like the place you wind up (the whole 'Hell' thing). I don't know how that works, but I don't want to find out either. I trust my FATHER to tell me how to avoid it just as I trusted my mother when she told me the stove was hot.

Translation: “We’re all gonna die! Daddy don’t leave me! Please, I’ll be your BITCH!”

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I search for eternal truth, not facts.

Translation: “I just want to live in la-la land!”

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why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

What makes you think the Bible is right? How do you know that all the other religions are wrong but yours is true? All because of someone teaching you about the Bible when growing up? Sorry, but I rather have facts than fantasies.



[modbreak]Attributed quotes[/modbreak]
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: snkiesch on October 11, 2010, 06:19:54 PM
Markinark,  What you do not seem to understand if your god is omniscient He knew before he created  Adam and Eve were going to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not that they might and it was a test but they would.  How can you put the the blame on Adam and Eve when they did what god, Jesus and the holy spirit gave them no choice?


I do not care how you try to spin it A&E had no choice. Your omnibenevolent god planned on all the child rapes, torture, starvation, and whatever evil you can come up before he created anything.  Here is somemore of your loving god's followers interpretation of your god's word. They have biblical support that some of those children after spending their whole live being tortured get to spend eternity in hell. How can you say you love and worship such a monster? http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: rev45 on October 11, 2010, 06:39:39 PM
This came from the article snkiesch posted.

Quote
The reformed men who teaches the automatic heavenly destination of small children must think very hard. In believing and teaching it, they thereby reject plain truth; they imbibe heresy and encourage others to think the same way; they reject the principles of the Reformation and of scripture; they reject election, the bastion of salvation; they reject the way of salvation; they reject God’s grace.

I'm have some trouble wanting to accept the grace from a god who won't give any to a baby who's only supposed sin was being born. 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 11, 2010, 06:45:41 PM
http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML

Broken link. Fixed:

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm (http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 11, 2010, 06:55:18 PM
Markinark, you've not really addressed my points.

God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

All choices involve consequences (burden).

Assuming this is true, it doesn't change the fact that God is the one to have set it all in motion. You haven't addressed this. Before mankind, there was God. God decided to create mankind. Being God, he knew - even before he started the process - that man was a flawed creation and would chose evil.
Instead of reworking the creation so mankind would never get so far as to choose it, God went along with it anyway. Do you understand?


Quote
Sacrifice:  I view the sacrifice of himself (son) necessary to balance the human flaw and insure repatriation with God. It is God going the extra mile to get man back to what is acceptable in spite of man's inadequacies.

Again, man's inadequacies because of God. Man never had to have inadequacies if God didn't will it.

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It is not God torturing, it is just reality. See Satan.

Reality made by who?! God!

Quote
The point isn't to tell the difference between parable and a literal story. The point is to discern truth from the parable/story.

I'm not asking about the point. I think it's entirely relevant to be able to tell whether something is intended to be literal or figurative. So I'd like to know.

Quote
A fact is truth. Truth may be understood without a step-by-step factual guide.

This doesn't answer my question. Please give me a specific example. I don't see how you can look for "truth" without "facts" being involved.

Quote
If I say you will die if you drive off a cliff and you do, I am honest and you chose badly.

No, a more apt example would be if I were on the only path available (because that's the only one you built), and at the end of the path were a cliff that you specifically put there. Then you tell me I can either hand my life over to you or drive off the cliff. You're being honest, but it doesn't mean you're not an asshole for setting up that situation or giving me choices that aren't actually choices.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: xphobe on October 11, 2010, 09:31:34 PM
God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

I don't recall reading that the serpent was identified as Satan, but ok let's say it was Satan.  Is Satan an independent timeless deity like God's evil twin brother?  So if you "believe" in Satan (meaning you acknowledge his existence although you don't follow him) aren't you actually a polytheist?

Or did God create Satan?  In other words, God is responsible for evil existing.  That would mean that Satan is part of God's plan.  Again, Check!  You're back to not actually having free will.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: cheezisgoooood on October 11, 2010, 11:02:20 PM
http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML

Broken link. Fixed:

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm (http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm)
Great.  Now I want to punch someone right in the balls.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 11, 2010, 11:07:59 PM
LOL   :D
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: blue on October 11, 2010, 11:20:55 PM
Gah. Calvinists are always such a bundle of happiness and hope.  &)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Cyberia on October 12, 2010, 12:23:27 AM
God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

I don't recall reading that the serpent was identified as Satan, but ok let's say it was Satan.  Is Satan an independent timeless deity like God's evil twin brother?  So if you "believe" in Satan (meaning you acknowledge his existence although you don't follow him) aren't you actually a polytheist?

It's not identified as Satan, because it's NOT.  It's a Chthonic Serpent, which, according to mythology......wait for it.....guards Trees of Knowledge.  Mythologies get borrowed, this is one of those cases.  The bible is myth.

If it was Satan, how did it get INTO the garden in the first place???

If it was Satan, why didn't god intervene immediately, knowing that A+E explicitly did NOT have knowledge of Good and Evil, and were not prepared to resist?

Did god NOT know?  Was he unable to intervene?

It's all fiction.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: kcrady on October 12, 2010, 12:55:33 AM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Cliff Notes version: Because Universe behaves exactly the way it would if no such entity/entities existed.

Somewhat longer version:  In order to legitimately call an entity (whether it is a god or a cat) "loving," we need to be able to actually observe it behaving in this manner.  It should be known to show affection, to act in compassion toward suffering in those it loves, etc..  If it exhibits no behavior at all, then there is no way to tell if it is "loving," "hateful," "hungry" or (should it also be inherently undetectable) if it is real at all.  In like manner, if the entity has a great store of knowledge (much less being "All Knowing"), this too should manifest in its behavior and its communications.  If someone claims to have expert knowledge in, say, horsemanship, we should expect that she be able to ride.  If the entity in question is also supposed to be "Intelligent," then we should expect it to be able to apply its knowledge efficaciously.  Again, this will show up in its behavior.

In the case of gods, we observe no behavior at all.  There is no way to tell the difference between a "Loving, All Knowing, Intelligent" entity that does nothing and a "Hateful, Ignorant, Stupid" entity that does nothing.  If you wish to try to attribute the portrayed actions of Yahweh in Biblical mythology to your god (rather like pointing to the deeds of Darth Vader and claiming to have proven the existence of the Force), then, as others here have already pointed out, you're going to be confronted with the fact that Yahweh isn't very bright (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=23.0).
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: kcrady on October 12, 2010, 02:48:00 AM
Regarding the "free will" argument:

There is only "free will" in the sense being discussed here if there are actual options.  That is, the entity with the "free will" must have had a genuine potential for making different choices in a given situation.  So, prior to the Eden Debacle, it must have been genuinely possible for Adam and Eve to have chosen not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, or to have hurried off and chomped down the fruit of the Tree of Life before Yahweh showed up, thus completing their ascent to divinity before he had a chance to kick them out of the Garden.  If it was not genuinely possible--if there was only one potential result of Adam and Eve being placed in the Garden--then they could not have had "free will."

It follows from this that if any punishments or other consequences from the eating of the Fruit preceded the actual deed, that Adam and Eve could not have had "free will," and that their action in the Garden was foreordained.

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According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

--Ephesians 1:4

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But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

--I Peter 1:19-20


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The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

--Revelation 17:8, emphasis added

From passages like these, we see that certain things, such as the sacrifice of Christ and the salvation of some and not others, were foreordained from "before the foundation of the world."  This can only mean that there was never any potential or possibility for Adam and Eve to have made a different choice.  In like manner, Pontius Pilate could not have had "free will" to say, "No, I'm letting this Jesus fellow go, and if you Jewish leaders don't like it, I can make enough crosses to go around."

"From the foundation of the world," Yahweh would have known exactly what would happen, and that there were no alternative potential futures for the humans he was about to create.  It was not as if he could hope that things would work out better than they did, and end up disappointed in the choices his humans made, given that better choices leading to better futures were available to them.  No, the essentials were foreordained "from the foundation of the world" (or "from before the foundation of the world")

So, according to the Biblical story then, Yahweh is the only entity who has a real choice among viable options.  Assuming that he has "free will," he would likely have had a wide range of possibilities.  He could make worlds without humans, worlds inhabited by sentient cephalopods, Gardens without magical Trees or talking serpents, Gardens without a prohibition on eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, different rule-sets and so on.  Or, if some element of his nature ("perfect righteousness" perhaps?) somehow constrained him to one and only one possible Earth and only one rule-set for the "game" of life, he would still presumably have had the choice to create, or not.

In this latter case, knowing that creating a world with humans would inevitably result in most of those humans suffering horribly for eternity, a loving Deity could still decide that such a price was simply too high, and choose not to create.  Unless those "foundation of the world" passages apply to Yahweh as well[1], in which case Yahweh has no "free will" either.
 1. I.e., the "foundation of the world" itself is already foreordained, so Yahweh could not choose not to found the world
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Brayton.l on October 12, 2010, 05:01:02 AM
My experience is that it is impossible to argue with someone who wants to believe. I think that the majority of the faithful are positively determined to believe. When presented with indisputable fact, I can see the gears turning in their minds, trying to come up with any good reason to validate their position. At that point, my next comment is invariably, "Lets face it, you believe because you want to, not because there is any valid reason, other than it makes you feel good." Argument from personal incredulity, "I just cant imagine a world without god".  It gets frustrating to say the least.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 12, 2010, 10:05:41 AM
The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me? Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years? The fact the Bible is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

And, I believe them. None of you have to believe them. I call that a choice.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 12, 2010, 10:07:24 AM
My wife tells me all the time...... "I know what I know what I know."  Go argue with someone else....hands in ears.... lalalalalalalalla!   Couch sure gets hard!   &)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 12, 2010, 10:09:33 AM
Mark.... in the kindest possible way..... I call it deluded. Your post is a perfect example of what Brayton just said.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 12, 2010, 10:10:06 AM
Quote from: kcrady
In this latter case, knowing that creating a world with humans would inevitably result in most of those humans suffering horribly for eternity, a loving Deity could still decide that such a price was simply too high, and choose not to create.  Unless those "foundation of the world" passages apply to Yahweh as well[1], in which case Yahweh has no "free will" either.
 1. I.e., the "foundation of the world" itself is already foreordained, so Yahweh could not choose not to found the world

Why most? Evidently, He thinks it is worth it.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 12, 2010, 10:15:37 AM
Mark.... in the kindest possible way..... I call it deluded. Your post is a perfect example of what Brayton just said.

True. But between Brayton's understanding of all things versus history recorded by Christians and Jews over thousands of years telling a consistent plausible story of God, I think I'll go with the latter. He doesn't look that smart.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Omen on October 12, 2010, 10:22:20 AM
True. But between Brayton's understanding of all things versus history recorded by Christians and Jews over thousands of years telling a consistent plausible story of God

Recorded history of cultures that not only existed at the same time but before, contradict all of biblical myth.  Archaeological evidence contradicts all of biblical myth.  Every single field of scientific study contradicts biblical myth.

What are you taking about 'recorded history'?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 12, 2010, 10:23:14 AM
I cannot stand it I have to point out how illogical and self serving you are being,.

The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.   What in the world are you talking about?The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

 It requires some kind of reason though, when you are claiming talking snakes, walking dead, virgin births and stories that anywhere else would be the stuff of legends, myths and Science fiction.    

I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me.

 Drowning the whole flipping planet seems pretty indicitave of little love lost.  :o

This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me? Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years?

 The credibility of the message is not how long it has been on the market, it is..... does it makes any kind of realistic sense without resorting to "its magic".

The fact the Bible [ is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

More often they were putting other men to death.

And, I believe them. None of you have to believe them. I call that a choice.

 Right, but we get to fry in the big barbecue below according to your loving father.   :o :P :'(
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Omen on October 12, 2010, 10:23:25 AM
The concepts of Satan, th..

You're still mindlessly listing the fantasies you believe in, without any logical explanatory attempt to tie it together or answer the contradictions being pointed out to you.  Why are you even here?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 12, 2010, 10:27:17 AM
smart.... doesn't look smart......    sounds pretty smart to me and with the ability to give a reasoned argument..... which so far you have not done very well at Mark .....probably because god didit and "MAGIC" are all you need..... course that is easier   :shrug

I swear.....these are all the same poster with different names...... baaaa baaaa baaaa
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 12, 2010, 10:39:45 AM
The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

And again, assuming this is true, it still ties back to God. There is no choice, no serpent, no evil, no "badness" without God having decided it should be so.

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The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

Prudent? Prudent would be ensuring that there were no evil in the first place - even if there was freewill. He's God; anything is possible with God. So if God anticipated the need of a savior, he's anticipating that most of his own creation is going to suffer for eternity. That means he knows! He knows and I suppose that's what he wants!

Let's say I'm building a small motorcycle for my kid. Just as I'm putting the finishing touches on it, I realize I've made a mistake with the wiring. I realize that the motorcycle is going to catch fire and explode given enough use. There's no doubt it's going to happen. Tell me, is the "prudent" thing for me to do to add a special sprinkler feature to put out the inevitable fire? Or is it prudent to rewire the damned thing before even giving it to my kid? 

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This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

If God is omniscient, then yes, God must know who is going to hell.

Quote
The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

Created and sanctioned by who? God.

Quote
I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

Then you're not saying you're looking for truth instead of facts. You're saying you're looking for truth without proof.

Quote
The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Impressive? Hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people have gone to their deaths in history for absurd reasons, including over religions that are not yours. If that's impressive, the Heavens Gate cult must be simply awe-inspiring. Just because somebody believes something to the point of willingness to die does not make that idea true. It just means that person really, really believed it.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 12, 2010, 10:41:26 AM
The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

Prudent? What are you talking about?

“Oh I know what will happen, so when it does, I’ll sacrifice myself to myself to appease myself in order to forgive you of your sins.”

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This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

I don’t quite follow. So God can’t tell what choice someone will make but knows they’re doomed to hell anyway? That clearly makes no sense.

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When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

Ok, when parents warn you of danger, it’s usually because they don’t want you to get hurt. But unfortunately for Adam and Eve, they were punished for simply eating from the tree of knowledge with pain and suffering. That does not sound like your God cares at all about you, he seem to want you to take the fall so that he can torture you. That sounds very evil to me. If my mother tells me not to touch the hot stove and I did as a child, then mother would say, “I did say you shouldn’t. Here, put your hand in the cold water, it’ll heal up.” The God instead went, “OH MY GOD!! I’m gonna kill you!!”

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I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

So basically, you just want to believe no matter what. I really feel sorry for you.

Quote
I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

A hug, a kiss, telling you that they love you, wanting to spend time with you, smiling up at you, wanting to be close to you, telling people how wonderful you are, are proofs of love. Sorry, you failed. If you can’t tell if your kids love you, then you failed as a parent.

Basically, it sounds like to me you’ll just assume things without knowing what may be true or not.

“Oh I think they love me.”
“I hate you!”
“Oh I think they hate me.”
“You’re the best.”

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Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me? Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years? The fact the Bible is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Ok, I basically died a little inside. Mark, you clearly don’t get it! You don’t worship my pink bunny because you hadn’t read the book yet? That is just plain sad of you. Are you saying that you would actually believe what is written?

Just because people killed one another for their religious beliefs doesn’t mean it’s true!  People killed for their belief in their Hindu gods, what about them? What about the people who worships the Greek Gods or Allah? What about those who kills for their Egyptian Gods? You Bible isn’t the only one that had people convinced in their religious beliefs, people of other faiths had too. This doesn’t make your Bible true or their religion true, it just proves how dangerous the human mind is; willing to believe anything and murder anyone who doesn’t agree.

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And, I believe them. None of you have to believe them. I call that a choice.


It’s not a choice when someone’s religious belief says, “You have a choice, but I’m going to torture you forever if you don’t do things my way.”
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 12, 2010, 10:52:32 AM
The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

And again, assuming this is true, it still ties back to God. There is no choice, no serpent, no evil, no "badness" without God having decided it should be so.

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

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The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

Quote from: Ashe
Prudent? Prudent would be ensuring that there were no evil in the first place - even if there was freewill. He's God; anything is possible with God. So if God anticipated the need of a savior, he's anticipating that most of his own creation is going to suffer for eternity. That means he knows! He knows and I suppose that's what he wants!

No evil in the first place. I don't have a book on how Satan 'fell from Grace', but i'm assuming is was a choice.

Quote from: Ashe
Let's say I'm building a small motorcycle for my kid. Just as I'm putting the finishing touches on it, I realize I've made a mistake with the wiring. I realize that the motorcycle is going to catch fire and explode given enough use. There's no doubt it's going to happen. Tell me, is the "prudent" thing for me to do to add a special sprinkler feature to put out the inevitable fire? Or is it prudent to rewire the damned thing before even giving it to my kid?

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.

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This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

Quote from: Ashe
If God is omniscient, then yes, God must know who is going to hell.

No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.

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The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

Quote from: Ashe
Then you're not saying you're looking for truth instead of facts. You're saying you're looking for truth without proof.

It is a FAITH based religion. If God were to appear to you today, what choice would you have then?

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The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Quote from: Ashe
Impressive? Hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people have gone to their deaths in history for absurd reasons

...made by absurd people, not God.

Quote from: Ashe
Just because somebody believes something to the point of willingness to die does not make that idea true. It just means that person really, really believed it.

Exactly. And, they were closer to the situation than you.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on October 12, 2010, 10:57:27 AM
My opinion:

God is the creator of the known universe
God is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.
As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.



God could very easily have made us without the capacity to commit acts of evil. Not having the ability to commit an act only violates the concept of free will if there is nothing that can't do. For example, I can't suddenly choose to teleport over to the movie theatre in time to catch the next show. I can't choose to create an army of beautiful young women to serve my every need out of thin air, no matter how much I want to. These things are beyond my capabilities, my inability to do them does not violate my free will. So why then did god create us with the ability to sin if it is something that he does not want us to do?

From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior. So before you whine about the 'sins of my fathers', understand you have a way to reverse this unfavorable outcome of an others actions. Similar to your Dad moving you to California from New York.  When California falls off into the ocean as a result of an Earthquake, you will perish along with dear old dad unless you choose to move back to New York. If this occurs before you are old enough to be on your own, your life sucks. In Goddom, He makes an exception and you're good to go. This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

Or god could, you know, just not punish us for behaving the way he made us. And besides, if god really wanted to help us avoid this fate, why rely on faith? He could simply outright tell us and prove to us the truth and then let us make our choice. Instead he asks us to make a blind choice with no reliable information with which to decide the right course. Then if we don't make the right choices we get punished to an eternity of torture with no hope of ever getting out. You're right, clearly god is an infinitely loving being. I assume you follow his example in how you love your own children then?


The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

So in order to convey Truth, god decided to write the most vague and ambigious, badly written piece of literatue ever created? Then made it full of parables and allegory, which by their very nature are open to individual interpretation. Left no method by which to distinguish the allegories from the literal words other than individual interpretation, and left it to be constantly remade and rewritten by the hands of the same imperfect, bumbling screwheads that messed up creation in the first place.

........and just to be clear, you're saying that this is how god tries to teach us Truth?

........Do I even have to make fun of this?

I search for eternal truth, not facts. I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit. It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value. Adherence to the 'truths' of the Bible helps me to be compassionate to my fellow man. And yes, you can live your life very much like this without God. You can be kind, compassionate and loving toward your fellow man. However, if God is God, you will be miming the words, but missing the big picture. How will God deal with that? I have no idea. But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

First off, the bolded part is just stupid. If there are no facts, then there is no way to distinguish Truth from falsity. Secondly if you look for Truth with preconceptions you will never find it. All you'll find is what you already have now, a bunch of answers handed to you by someone else. If there is any truth to be had you'll never find it without freeing your mind as opposed to chaining it. There is no Truth, in the bible, you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about, Truth is not to be found in blind obedience to the words of another. It is to be found through yourself and on your own terms. If you don't at least understand that then you understand nothing.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 12, 2010, 11:42:32 AM
When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

So you think that it's free will that people are damned for the actions of other people?  Mankind did not "chose" anything.  Two mythical figures did and if one assumes them real, then they were just two humans, nothing special and not able to represent all of humanity for all time. 

Quote
I search for eternal truth, not facts. I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit. It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value. Adherence to the 'truths' of the Bible helps me to be compassionate to my fellow man. And yes, you can live your life very much like this without God. You can be kind, compassionate and loving toward your fellow man. However, if God is God, you will be miming the words, but missing the big picture. How will God deal with that? I have no idea. But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

gah, Pascal's wager again.  Yes, it does cost you to believe in imaginary things.  Do you tithe? Then it costs you resources? Do you go to church? Then it costs you time.  And yes, these things are of real value, if you could be doing something worthwhile with them, rather than suck up to a imaginary being that does nothing. 

I am always amused that you and people like you need a magic book to be decent people.  Funny how I don't need it at all.  I guess, if you would be ravening maniacs without your cosmic pacifier, then by all means believe in your bogey man.  Since I am a compassionate, kind, thoughtful being, I reject your myths since they also include where God is all about being cruel, stupid, ignorant, genocidal, etc.  You are just cherry picking and creating a god of your own. 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 12, 2010, 12:22:39 PM
Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

[...]

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.
Two questions then:

1) Is heaven perfect?

2) Is there free will in heaven?

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No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.
Since when does an omnipotent entity have to "try like hell" to get something done, if it wants it done?

And once again: If God is omniscient and the creator of everything then God is not "trying like hell" to keep people from going to hell. In this case God not only knew what would happen to those people but actually decided to create the world in such a way that it would happen.

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It is a FAITH based religion. If God were to appear to you today, what choice would you have then?
If God appeared today, then we would have a choice.

Without God appearing your belief hasn't more evidence speaking for it than any other religion on earth, which means there is no choice at all but it's just completely random gamble.


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The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Impressive? Hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people have gone to their deaths in history for absurd reasons

  made by absurd people, not God.
You're putting the cart before the horse here.

The point is: People dying for words written on paper is neither impressive nor is it a sign that those words on paper are of divine origin.
Once again you just try to counter with a claim without backing said claim up with any evidence at all.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 12, 2010, 12:58:01 PM
Mark, people kill people for absurd reasons by absurd people, there is nothing impressive about that. People of Aztec religion have murdered maidens and children to appease their Gods and Goddesses. Muslims are stoning women to death for being raped nowadays, many Christians in Africa are torturing and killing children for being witches. Hindus have killed children to appease their Gods. And many more. What is so impressive about that? It's heinous, it's revolting, it's sick, and it's irrational. Has any Atheists ever did any of these things? Absolutely not! I'm not saying Atheists are perfect little saints, we're just not that insane. Killing people for religious reasons is too insane and that is why nowadays in the civilized societies, we don't do this. Unfortunately, many primitive minded people like those in Middle East and Africa are just wildly dangerous and should be stopped. Are you tell me that you like to believe in superstitutious nonsense where people killed one another over it? Sorry, but if there's a God and there's Hell, I'm choosing hell because i would like to get the hell away from people like you.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 12, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
Please quote properly, markinark. I'm having an incredibly hard time following your last post.

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

Your still not addressing my point! Please address what I'm saying rather than repeating baseless assertions.

Freewill necessitates a choice. Fine. For sake of argument, I'll accept that.

That does not address the fact that God is allegedly all-powerful and can prevent "badness" if he so chose. The "goodness" and "badness" are irrelevant if God had willed there to be no "badness" in the first place. An all-powerful God has the ability to create a reality in which freewill could exist along with nothing but good choices.

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Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.

Again, you haven't addressed my point. Please go back and address the motorcycle example and respond to it specifically: Would it be prudent for me to attach a device to put out the fire when I could've just changed my design in the first place?

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No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.

No, God knows exactly who will go to hell! What do you think omniscience is, anyway?! An all-knowing God must by very definition of the word know precisely who will go to hell and who will not, even before that person exists! If you disagree, please present to me a logical argument for a scenario in which an all-knowing deity would fail to know something.

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It is a FAITH based religion. If God were to appear to you today, what choice would you have then?

How is that relevant to anything I've said?

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Exactly. And, they were closer to the situation than you.

Exactly what? The fact that someone really, really believes something does not mean it's true, no matter how close to the situation they are. Do you see the difference, or do you not?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 12, 2010, 01:10:14 PM
The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

“All knowing” and “freewill universe” are mutually exclusive.  There’s no way around that.  A being cannot be “all knowing” unless everything is pre-destined.  If everything is pre-destined, one cannot have free will.  It’s a simple as that.

Your very existence, if there is free will, would have to depend on an infinite number of free will decisions, all going just the right way, among all your ancestors dating back millions of years.  Any one of them decides any one tiny thing differently, and you are not here right now.  And thus any plan that some god would have for you would depend on a whole lot of luck to come to fruition. 

For example, your father could have done any of a thousand different things differently the day he met your mother, or he could have used his “free will” and married someone else, or a different person could have used his “free will” and decided to drive drunk and run over your mother and kill her when she was a little girl, or your grandmother on your mother’s side could have used her “free will” and had an abortion instead of having your mother, or your great-great-grandfather could have used his “free will” and committed suicide or make a mistake in World War I and get himself killed before marrying your great-great-grandmother, or your parents could have used their “free will” and had sex on a different night during a different menstrual cycle as the night you were conceived (and “you” would have a completely different chromosomal make-up making “you” someone different) etc etc etc etc etc. 

It simply doesnt work if you are trying to make some argument that there is an omniscient creator being in the sky and that we have “free will”. 

And what the hell do you mean “prudent”?  Why would such a god create his beings in such an imperfect way if he needed to “anticipate the need for a savior”? 

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When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.
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I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

We got to stop with the whole parent-child analogies, they fail on so many levels.  A parent (or at least a good one) doesnt stay completely hidden from his/her children and expect them to worship him/her!! 

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Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me?

Bolded by me.  At what point did this invisible god-being “give his life for me”???  Near as I can tell, if you believe this story, he just took a trip down to earth for a few decades then went back to heaven.  He doesnt have a “life” and never did. 

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Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years?

The bible, and how it came into being, is the most powerful argument against the existence of a god that I can come up with. 

The scriptures that became the bible represented the local religious beliefs of a group of people in the mid-east over 2 millennia ago.  They werent significantly more far-fetched than the other tall-tales floating around different parts of the world around that time.  There were many “documented” legends in various other parts of the world (e.g. the Iliad in Greece, Fengshen Yany in China, etc etc) Like all local legends, the ones who wrote it were the “chosen people” and their god or gods took care of them against other peoples during wars, etc.

Of course, mankind, even by idiotic creationist estimations, existed long long before the hebrew scriptures came into being.  So you have to ask yourself what took him so long, if this was "his" word.  Why all the other "words" prior to this?  Unless of course this was just the local mythology of an ancient peoples and such a god never really existed.

These scriptures were then compiled by a committee in the 3rd century because an emperor wanted to unify his empire under a common religion.  Think about that for a second.  A committee decided what words represented a holy truth and what words did not.  How could you possibly think that is how an all-powerful creator being would get his word out to his creation!!!  Why would this subset of his creation be necessary to determine what were and werent his words.  Couldnt they have been wrong?  Maybe the books that didnt make the cut were really his words and the truth!   How the hell did these guys get it right?  And why would it need to be a committee if they were being divinely inspired???

Why wouldnt the translations then be inspired?  You would think if this were the word of a creator god he would want those of us who dont speak ancient hebrew to get his word too.  Why are there dozens of different versions in english alone? 

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The fact the Bible is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Not impressive at all.  Do you want me to put a list together of crazy beliefs people have given their life for?  Do you believe there was a spaceship behind the Halle-Bopp comet?  The members of Heaven’s Gate gave their lives in that belief.  Do you believe that the 20 hijackers of 9/11 are in heaven with 70 virgins right now?  Do you?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 12, 2010, 01:51:33 PM
We don't even have to go to the myth of A&E to see that "freewill," is not an answer. Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz.  By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Mark. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.




Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 12, 2010, 02:05:38 PM
The great Pink God Bunny is real because it is now written on a computer screen. It has been around for over 4,000 years because I said so. It gave its own beloved son to die in the vegetable garden choking on poison and being shredded by the farmer's harvester for your Sin of not eating your carrots. He has risen three days later and gives you a choice, "Choose my way, or my farmer's gonna get cha!" How about that Mark? Does that make you want to worship the pink bunny now? No? Then answer me these questions.


1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

2) Why would you think that people murdering other people for their religious beliefs is impressive?

3) Have you learned about all the atrocities committed by the Azterc religioon and the Islamic religion?

4) Do you really think that words on the Bible, despite countless contradictions and errors, is really worth believing in?


5) If the bible tells you to strike the newborn in the face to shake off demons, would you do it?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: nogodsforme on October 12, 2010, 02:45:20 PM
http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML

Broken link. Fixed:

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm (http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm)
The scariest part of this essay is :
"The Christian is NOT free to think as he wishes. These are NOT things we can happily differ on.  NO Christian has the freedom to just ‘disagree’ on what is plainly set forth in God’s word." Sheesh. Just shut up and turn off your brain!

As if there is ANYTHING in the bible that is "plainly set forth"! There would not be thousands of different Christian churches if it was all plainly set forth. Should you baptize babies or not? Should you baptize at all? Should you drink alcohol or not? Should you kill gay people and women who don't scream loudly enough when they are being raped?

Or should you just imitate Jesus? Be born to a teen mom, never marry, hang out with whores and a bunch of other unmarried guys, drink a lot of wine, and get killed by the police in your thirties? Like a gay biker dude.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on October 12, 2010, 03:00:58 PM
And besides which, in the story of Moses god hardens the pharoahs heart and forces him to refuse to free Moses' people. I think that alone negates any possible case of using 'free will' as an excuse.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 12, 2010, 03:02:52 PM

1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

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2) Why would you think that people murdering other people for their religious beliefs is impressive?

People murdering people out of their own misconceptions isn't impressive at all. People willing to hold to a belief in the face of such idiots
until they are finally martyred tends to make me believe they aren't perpetuating a myth.

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3) Have you learned about all the atrocities committed by the Azterc religioon and the Islamic religion?

Religion is manmade. Atrocities are committed by misguided people.

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4) Do you really think that words on the Bible, despite countless contradictions and errors, is really worth believing in?

A study of the Bible in search of Truth as opposed to attempting to find an escape clause tends to mollify most of the 'errors/contadictions' which, IMHO, are usually based on biased perspectives and conclusions.  

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5) If the bible tells you to strike the newborn in the face to shake off demons, would you do it?

I'm not going to go around slapping newborns. If I were to feel the newborn was possessed by a demon, I might ask, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the demon to identify himself. If he did, I would be tempted to slap the baby (assuming I could locate the obscure verse I'm sure you're bating me with). But more than likely, I would first attempt to cast the demon out in the name of Jesus Christ. Might try a little Holy Water too. Of course, the response of the demon indirectly confirms the existence of God. So, I'd just wait to hear what He wanted me to do.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 12, 2010, 03:05:31 PM

1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.


c) Which in no way limits one's choice to worship, or to not. If the truth is the same truth illustrated by your bible, that is.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 12, 2010, 03:08:11 PM
And besides which, in the story of Moses god hardens the pharoahs heart and forces him to refuse to free Moses' people. I think that alone negates any possible case of using 'free will' as an excuse.

It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses' freewill with regard to choosing God. It deals only with their current state of captivity with which God was using to chastise HIS people. To effect a change, modify behavior, much like your momma spankin' your backside.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Don_Quixote on October 12, 2010, 03:11:27 PM
Why does god have "preferred people"? He supposedly loves every one of us and yet he despics egyptians over HIS people. If god gave free will to everyone, why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves? After all, the slaves would have had the free will to organize and fight but noooo god almighty couldn't and had to use another human to do his dirty work.

Makes me look at god like the mafia boss who is hiring Moses to his dirty business.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 12, 2010, 03:12:27 PM

It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses'  freewill with regard to choosing God.

You just contradicted item c), which I quoted above, did you not?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 12, 2010, 03:15:38 PM


    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

And so by that external stimuli, I would be FORCED to act that way, or would I choose to act that way? I may choose to act that way, but the still would not remove my freewill not to. Or are you saying everyone who met Jesus was suddenly bereft of Freewill, so A&E who saw God in your story, were bereft of freewil, so Satan, in your story, was bereft of freewill.

So your argument is as full of holes as a spaghetti strainer.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 12, 2010, 03:16:55 PM
It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses' freewill with regard to choosing God. It deals only with their current state of captivity with which God was using to chastise HIS people. To effect a change, modify behavior, much like your momma spankin' your backside.

I am curious just what you think alters free will.  Is this free will, when god makes people think what he wants them to think?

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Exodus 12:36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

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Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

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Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."
when someone says they've done something for the express purpose of getting their way, how is this not abrogating free will?

Same with Paul? Nothing like a forced conversion on the road to Tarsus! Your claims of free will and choice are belied by your own holy book.  



Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on October 12, 2010, 03:36:34 PM

1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.


So the first two start off with "I believe" which basically removes any validity of the statements having any value since you have no way to back up anything that you're saying. Also the first two lines in no way interfere with "free will". All they do is mean that we're now making an informed decision. There's nothing inherent in that that forces us to worship god, it just means that now we know for sure that he exists and have a clear idea of what he wants. As for the last one the same thing applies. Even if we did suddenly know the "Truth" in one great mind-blowing godgasm, and even if we had to accept that the reality exists. It still has no effect on whether or not we choose to follow. Again all this does is give us the ability to make an informed choice. As has already been pointed out, there were others who had talked to god and seen him directly, and they still sinned.

It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses' freewill with regard to choosing God. It deals only with their current state of captivity with which God was using to chastise HIS people. To effect a change, modify behavior, much like your momma spankin' your backside.


This isn't just about choosing god though. You've claimed that bad things happen in the world because humans do them through our choices. Well I've just pointed out an instant of several terrible things that happened that had nothing to do with human choice. They were forced into motion by god. At this point in time the egyptians didn't even know about your god. That was the entire point of the plagues. It was gods way of showing them how great and mighty he is, because your god is nothing if not all about his ego-stroking. The first born in egypt died just so that god could look cool, and human choice had absolutely nothing to do. In fact god put a hold on human choice and made the humans refuse to do what he demanded them to do so that he would have an excuse to punish them some more.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 12, 2010, 04:17:07 PM

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

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People murdering people out of their own misconceptions isn't impressive at all. People willing to hold to a belief in the face of such idiots until they are finally martyred tends to make me believe they aren't perpetuating a myth.

“Oh look, they murdered millions of these Indian guys because they don’t believe in the flying serpent.” Does that make the flying serpent real?

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Religion is manmade. Atrocities are committed by misguided people.

Well that I can agree with, but that can be said for your religious belief and it still doesn’t make it real.

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A study of the Bible in search of Truth as opposed to attempting to find an escape clause tends to mollify most of the 'errors/contadictions' which, IMHO, are usually based on biased perspectives and conclusions. 

And your God didn’t see that coming?

“No, no, no, no. I said four! Not 6, four! Geez get it right!”

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I'm not going to go around slapping newborns.

I didn’t say you were.

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If I were to feel the newborn was possessed by a demon, I might ask, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the demon to identify himself. If he did, I would be tempted to slap the baby (assuming I could locate the obscure verse I'm sure you're bating me with). But more than likely, I would first attempt to cast the demon out in the name of Jesus Christ. Might try a little Holy Water too. Of course, the response of the demon indirectly confirms the existence of God. So, I'd just wait to hear what He wanted me to do.

Ok, let me pull out my copy of Harry Potter and try seeing if I can find a spell to cast on my cell phone to make it float.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: nogodsforme on October 12, 2010, 05:26:56 PM
markinark, there are some questions that have been bothering me since I was a kid:

How did the snake get into the garden of Eden?
God must have put it there, because he created everything in the garden.

So why did he put it there?
He must have known what would happen, because he knows everything.

Why did god want the snake to get Eve to eat the fruit?
He had to know that the snake would do that, so he must have wanted it to happen.

Why did god want to curse humans to hell, when he just finished making them? And knowing that they were going to hell, why did he set up this whole scenario in the first place?

It is like making up a batch of cookies and telling two kids not to eat them, but putting a poison one in there. You know the kids will eat the cookies and it is possible they will get the bad one. Yeah, it is their own damn fault if they eat it and die, because they were disobedient. But you set up the whole scenario and put the poison cookie in the pile. Why? Why the "test" of obedience that you know they will fail?  (Why not just make some nice delicious cookies and give the kids some?) You can hardly argue that this is the action of a loving person....more like a psycho abusive Mommie Dearest, tricking the kids so they can be punished. :P
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 12, 2010, 05:34:41 PM
L.M.F.A.O.  :D

Man oh man. Have we really gotten a bonafide discussion about Jumby the Possessed-by-a-demon devil baby!?

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh shit man. I'm crying here. This is great.

OOGA BOOGA BITCHES!!!!  :D ;D :D
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 12, 2010, 08:31:23 PM
L.M.F.A.O.  :D

Man oh man. Have we really gotten a bonafide discussion about Jumby the Possessed-by-a-demon devil baby!?

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh shit man. I'm crying here. This is great.

OOGA BOOGA BITCHES!!!!  :D ;D :D

Not only that, in all that detail, did you notice he failed to answer the original question?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: superfly on October 13, 2010, 12:58:44 AM
If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

oh, i believe now. i just came face to face with His awesome power:
(http://www.lukeford.net/Images/photos/jesustortilla.jpg)
(http://brainwagon.org/images/jesus_toast.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sxA5sG42kRo/SmIHZ7gVFPI/AAAAAAAAAWg/W8M4ugdSIgM/s400/DogButtJesus.jpg)

WOW!!11!!eleventeen!! He really get's around.


He's even on Mars.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6aMj9qFJYZ8/TDITz26d5NI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/C646Vxg98UQ/s320/Martian_face_viking_cropped.jpg)

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 07:19:31 AM

1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

c) Which in no way limits one's choice to worship, or to not. If the truth is the same truth illustrated by your bible, that is.

You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 07:22:57 AM

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 07:32:42 AM

You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.


No, that is not the point of that statement, and I find your minterpretation dubious. In the Bibe, several characters have direct interaction with the character Yahweh. These interaction seem in no way to change their freewill. In fact, some of the Characters seem to actually defy Yahweh, even after direct contact.

Particularly:
Adam and Eve, Jonah, Sampson, Cain, Noah(after the flood), Nebuchadnezzar, Moses, Abraham, Job(arguable), and David.


Therefore, your point is moot
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 07:36:27 AM


You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

So not only do you avoid answering the question, you throw in some red herrings, and a badly worded insult. Tim wins, you lose.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: jetson on October 13, 2010, 07:44:24 AM

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

There is nothing to deny.  All gods are imaginary.  If your god was real, we would not be denying it's very existence, we would be discussing it's attributes.  Until theists can show that their god is real, all of their claims are nothing more than mythology.

Here's something that your god can consider, if he is real:

Quote
Dear God,

You are about as powerful as a pimple on the asshole of life.  You mean nothing.  You are a miserable and pathetic failure at everything you touch.  Your commands are stupid and pointless, and you make no sense in your ridiculously inspired nonsense writings.  When you are ready, I challenge your weakness directly, anytime, anywhere.  You better bring some friends, because I will go postal on your sorry punk ass.  Bring it, bitch.

Yours Truly,

Jetson

Now, I realize that your god can easily dismiss my tiny human cry for help.  However, I suspect that in his royal pettiness, he will likely strike me dead via a heart attack many years from now, or inflict me with cancer, or speed up the death of one of my parents.  But I can say with great certainty that he will remain entirely invisible and silent (thanks to the fact that he doesn't exist.)

I can also predict with great certainty that any Christian who is offended by my blasphemy, will give me their own version of God's wrath, and how I will be burning in fake hell forever.  To that I say - huzzah!!!!!!

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: rev45 on October 13, 2010, 07:47:26 AM

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God The Flying Spaghetti Monster holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

Don't be so silly.  Everyone knows that The Flying Spaghhetti Monster is the one true god.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 13, 2010, 08:19:26 AM

1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

c) Which in no way limits one's choice to worship, or to not. If the truth is the same truth illustrated by your bible, that is.

You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.


I am absolutely right, thank you for conceding it. So, with that established, there is no good reason why your god would not show himself, and make himself known so as to maximize the number of his creations joining him in heaven, if he loves each and every one of us, as so many Christians claim.

Why do you suppose an omnipotent deity wouldn't want himself to be known? Why do you suppose he remains hidden, effectively sending millions of otherwise innocent people to burn in hell for all eternity for the sole reason of thinking that he is imaginary? Does that sound like what a loving father would do?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 09:03:33 AM
Why does god have "preferred people"? He supposedly loves every one of us and yet he despics egyptians over HIS people. If god gave free will to everyone, why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves? After all, the slaves would have had the free will to organize and fight but noooo god almighty couldn't and had to use another human to do his dirty work.

Makes me look at god like the mafia boss who is hiring Moses to his dirty business.

Are you serious?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 09:07:19 AM

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intellige
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 13, 2010, 09:15:01 AM
If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

Ah, but the problem is that if there is no god, you are still okay with calling that nothing god. That word is more important than reality.

You're impressed with that nothingness. We're not.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 09:20:09 AM

I am absolutely right, thank you for conceding it. So, with that established, there is no good reason why your god would not show himself, and make himself known so as to maximize the number of his creations joining him in heaven, if he loves each and every one of us, as so many Christians claim.

Why do you suppose an omnipotent deity wouldn't want himself to be known? Why do you suppose he remains hidden, effectively sending millions of otherwise innocent people to burn in hell for all eternity for the sole reason of thinking that he is imaginary? Does that sound like what a loving father would do?

We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 13, 2010, 09:29:23 AM
What a crock of superstitous BS.  >:(   Go away Mark....if you have nothing better to say......threaten us with you God's wrath and go. Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness from Adam and Eve's mistake. I have no patience today for pathetic, self proclaimed evil sinner and pathetic illogical sheep.

Or....here is a great idea....get another name and pretend you are a "new" Christian and come back and spew some more nonsense. :shrug
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 09:32:22 AM

I am absolutely right, thank you for conceding it. So, with that established, there is no good reason why your god would not show himself, and make himself known so as to maximize the number of his creations joining him in heaven, if he loves each and every one of us, as so many Christians claim.

Why do you suppose an omnipotent deity wouldn't want himself to be known? Why do you suppose he remains hidden, effectively sending millions of otherwise innocent people to burn in hell for all eternity for the sole reason of thinking that he is imaginary? Does that sound like what a loving father would do?

We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

Another Christian who likes to sprout strong words backed up by nothing?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 09:32:36 AM

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

First of all that was Tim's Question, not mine. You are saying that the creator of the Universe is BibleGod, what if it was something else than Biblegod?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 09:39:19 AM


Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

And I've heard of Vishnu, Zues, The FLying Spaghetti Monster, and Glenda the Good Witch, I assume you have as well.

Yet I don't think you believe these entities you have heard of as real. Tell me why you do not accept these entites as real.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 13, 2010, 09:48:07 AM
We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

yes, I see you've been employing your free will in ignoring my posts.  I always love the usual attempts by a Christian to declare that he is the only OneTrueChristiantm and that he evidently must be psychic since he must be able to read minds to know what he claims.  Always fun to see Christians like you ignoring their own bible, other people, etc.  Sorry, dear but I was a Christian just the same as you once. I lost my faith, even while praying to keep it.  Why is that? Where was your god if there is free will as you claim?   

oh and about that second coming, when is that?  We've been promised it will be "real soon now" for at least two millenia. I do wonder about the desolation that some Christians must feel when they are dying and their god didn't bother to come back yet.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on October 13, 2010, 09:50:24 AM

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

Then your idea of god is completely devoid of any meaning. What do you call the being who created him, then? If you're only going to define god as the creator, which a makes an unfounded assumption that there even is one in the first place, you have no means of judging anything about him/her/it/them. You have just shown that you have not even the faintest idea of what god is, you can't possibly have any concept of what it wants, what it likes or doesn't, or even a single thing about it. You're simply talking out of your posterior and wasting everyone's time with your inane babble.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Whateverman on October 13, 2010, 09:53:57 AM
Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.
I've heard of Lady Gaga, but I don't know her...
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Dante on October 13, 2010, 10:08:13 AM
We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

I've heard of Santa Claus too. And I suspect the reason your god doesn't show himself to anyone is the same reason Santa doesn't either.

They're both imaginary.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 13, 2010, 10:18:58 AM
THIS HAS GONE TOOOOO FAAARRR!  SANTA IS NOT IMAGINARY!  WHO BRINGS THE PRESENTS YOU IGNORAMUS NON-BELIEVERS! SHEEEESH!!!!  >:( :o :'(
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 13, 2010, 10:44:54 AM
Hi Mark. I definitely posted this (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361883#msg361883) in anticipation of an answer. Unless I've somehow missed it, you have yet to address my post. Please do so. Thanks.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 10:57:34 AM
THIS HAS GONE TOOOOO FAAARRR!  SANTA IS NOT IMAGINARY!  WHO BRINGS THE PRESENTS YOU IGNORAMUS NON-BELIEVERS! SHEEEESH!!!!  >:( :o :'(

Sorry, but..... http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/c/Santa/dc.jpg
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Azdgari on October 13, 2010, 11:35:28 AM
THIS HAS GONE TOOOOO FAAARRR!  SANTA IS NOT IMAGINARY!  WHO BRINGS THE PRESENTS YOU IGNORAMUS NON-BELIEVERS! SHEEEESH!!!!  >:( :o :'(

George, did you come back from your hiatus specifically to reduce the quality of the forum, or is that just an acceptable side-effect?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 13, 2010, 11:40:22 AM

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.


Many people have heard of many things. It doesn't make them true. I've heard of many mythological creatures, i've heard of Japanese folklore tales like Yurei (Vengeful spirit), Kappa (Creature with a hole in the head, and more. It doesn't make them any more true than your BibleGod. I've heard of Greek Gods and Hindu Gods, i've heard of the Loch Ness and Bigfoot, and i've heard of Easter bunnies and santa claus. Nothing is certain of what we know of them, yet we heard of them. This is because they're all imgainary. Yes Mark, even your God is imaginary.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 13, 2010, 11:47:50 AM

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

That is my question, not Hatter's. Also, it doesn't determine if this creator is the BibleGod, he could be just any other Gods some other faiths believed in. Or it could just be a giant computer and we're all part of the programming.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 13, 2010, 11:53:01 AM
Why does god have "preferred people"? He supposedly loves every one of us and yet he despics egyptians over HIS people. If god gave free will to everyone, why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves? After all, the slaves would have had the free will to organize and fight but noooo god almighty couldn't and had to use another human to do his dirty work.

Makes me look at god like the mafia boss who is hiring Moses to his dirty business.

Are you serious?

If he's not, I am.  Sounds like a pretty legit question to me.  What problem do you have with this question?

Why would a creator god have a "chosen people"?  A "chosen" subset which he assists in massacring neighboring peoples numerous times, such as he (in the story) did with David?  (As a side note, how ridiculous were those stories?  An almighty god helping one of his people wipe out other groups of people?  If he wanted to do that, why not just make the enemies drop dead?  Problem solved.  Unbelievable)  

Is your problem with the "why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves?" comment?  If he had a problem with one group of people enslaving another group of people, why not rain down plagues upon the people of the United States during the mid to late 1800s?  Does he like the Israelites more than the Africans?  For that matter, why all the instructions in the bible about rules for beating your slave, but no condemnation of slavery?

Speaking of the whole Israelites being the "chosen people" nonsense, isnt it funny he doesnt help them out anymore, or at least not directly like he used to?  Why do they need us to supply them with weapons to protect themselves?  You would think if they were the "chosen people" and he used to help them take down other nations (speaking to their leaders directly, carving commandments into stone for them, etc.), he would just send down plagues on the nations that threaten them.  Why nowadays does he take the hidden, let-nature-take-its-course approach?  

Or is it now the United States that's the "chosen people"?  That must be it.  And he works by calling/placing people like GW Bush in positions of power and giving him subtle clues, and speaking to him through religious advisors, to invade countries like Iraq and spread his "word".  That must be it.  But no slavery anymore.  Now that's bad in his eyes.

Wake up, buddy.  There's no invisible being in the sky watching down upon us.  Or at least certainly not the one described in the hebrew scriptures.  They were the "chosen people" because it was their friggin' belief system!!!  Just because the Chinese people were at the center of their mythology, Indian people were at the center of their etc etc etc.

You are a christian because you were raised in a time and place where christianity predominated.  Time to snap out of it and move on.  You are a part of a large-scale cult.  Nothing more.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 13, 2010, 12:12:20 PM
Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

I think everyone else defeated this point of yours pretty well.  I'm curious, why do you think any of us should hold the god described in ancient hebrew mythology in any higher regard than any other god or gods described in the mythology of ancient cultures what do you feel it is that separates this god from the others? 

Please dont respond back with some nonsense like, "He's real to me".  Back it up.  Consider me a blank slate right now and explain why the god worshipped by the hebrew people a couple of millennia ago has any more credibility than any other deity from cultures in a different parts of the world before or after this period of time.

Let me ask you, do you believe you would be a christian right now if you had been born and raised in Kandahar (and still lived there today)?  Why not?

Do you think you would have been a christian if you had been born and raised in the Andes Mountains during the 13th or 14th centuries?  Why not? 

How about if you had been born and raised in what is now Beijing during the 6th century AD?  Why not?  How about in what is now Nevada in the 15th century?  How about Athens in the 3rd century BCE?  How about Egypt in the 6th century BCE?  Etc etc etc etc.

Do you really just think all those literally millions of cultures throughout mankind's history got it wrong, but somehow the one you were raised in just got it right?

Or maybe, just maybe, they are all just cultural superstitions, kept alive through fear, and often times force, and you just happen to have been born in a time and place where the predominant belief was christianity?  Ever occur to you?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 13, 2010, 12:26:06 PM
Mark, I'm still waiting for your reply to this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361874#msg361874) from to pages ago.

I'm especially interested in your answers to the following parts:

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

[...]

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.
Two questions then:

1) Is heaven perfect?

2) Is there free will in heaven?

Quote
No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.
Since when does an omnipotent entity have to "try like hell" to get something done, if it wants it done?

And once again: If God is omniscient and the creator of everything then God is not "trying like hell" to keep people from going to hell. In this case God not only knew what would happen to those people but actually decided to create the world in such a way that it would happen.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 13, 2010, 12:28:56 PM
You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.


Are YOU serious?  What “logic” have you given us?  All I have seen is  bunch of garbage about how your god is the real god without anything to back it up whatsoever. If you’re such a “logical” sort of guy, give me a “logical” answer to my previous post:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361884#msg361884

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

???  How old are you?  “Listen to the sound of a pulsar”???  I’m supposed to imagine some sci-fi sound effect in my head and that’s supposed to make me go “Holy Sh*t!  It’s god!!!  Please forgive me for doubting you!”

What century are we living in now?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 13, 2010, 12:33:58 PM
What century are we living in now?

Atheists: in the 21st century

Markinark: In 3rd century BCE.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Jessie on October 13, 2010, 01:37:33 PM
We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

No, I do not choose to be an atheist. I didn't wake up one day and think to myself, "Gee, I'm tired of this Christianity crap. Imma gonna be a atheist now!1! *snaps fingers* DONE!" Nope, it doesn't work that way. As I was presented with scientific evidence that contradicted what I was once told, my views slowly changed, but it didn't happen over night. Even if I wanted to believe in a god, I can't, because there's no supporting evidence. That's how my brain is wired, and I can't change it, and God would know this, which brings me to my next point...

God is supposedly all-knowing, which means he knows in advance who is going to accept him and who isn't, yet he chooses to create those individuals, knowing well in advance they won't believe in him, and then tortures them forever for doing exactly what he knew they were going to do. Sorry, but your god's a dick. 

Quote
Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

So because we've heard of something, that means it's real? So you believe in unicorns, fairies, Big Foot, the yeti, the Loch Ness Monster, aliens, every other god that man has ever believed in, Lord Voldemort, the list goes on... I'm sure you've heard of these things, right? So you must believe they exist.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 02:05:45 PM


First of all that was Tim's Question, not mine. You are saying that the creator of the Universe is BibleGod, what if it was something else than Biblegod?

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there. I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 13, 2010, 02:17:16 PM
That's a lot of fallacies and irrational thinking for a short two-paragraph response, markinark.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 02:21:45 PM
Let's say I'm building a small motorcycle for my kid. Just as I'm putting the finishing touches on it, I realize I've made a mistake with the wiring. I realize that the motorcycle is going to catch fire and explode given enough use. There's no doubt it's going to happen. Tell me, is the "prudent" thing for me to do to add a special sprinkler feature to put out the inevitable fire? Or is it prudent to rewire the damned thing before even giving it to my kid?

No, trash the motorcycle. If you give him a choice something may go wrong, so don't give him the option. If he wants something fun to do, he can stand still and worship you.

Really, you want to strap your kid to a hunk of metal with a motor and send him down the road and you're worried about whether it should have a sprinkler system or not?

Why did you have the kid? If he never gets the motorcycle, he could still run out into the street and get hit by a car. Did you warn him about that? Why didn't you practice safe sex and avoid the possibility of him ever getting hurt. I'm calling DHS.....

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 02:23:56 PM
That's a lot of fallacies and irrational thinking for a short two-paragraph response, markinark.

Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 02:27:50 PM
Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?

Fallacies don't really require proof, but here they are.

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there.

Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

Quote
I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

See, your mistake is using two different definitions of a word in the same way.  You say "There must be a higher power, and I call this higher power God".  That's one definition.  Then, you try to use the word "God" to refer to your Biblical God rather than just a higher power.  That's another definition.  Your problem is that you don't make the distinction.

Quote
I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.

Fail logic: Good philosophical advice doesn't prove it's factual.
Whether or not it's good philosophical advice is another topic.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 02:29:32 PM
Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?

Fallacies don't really require proof, but here they are.

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there.

Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

Quote
I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

See, your mistake is using two different definitions of a word in the same way.  You say "There must be a higher power, and I call this higher power God".  That's one definition.  Then, you try to use the word "God" to refer to your Biblical God rather than just a higher power.  That's another definition.  Your problem is that you don't make the distinction.

Quote
I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.

Fail logic: Good philosophical advice doesn't prove it's factual.
Whether or not it's good philosophical advice is another topic.

The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 02:32:53 PM
The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.

There's a huge difference between "possible" and "true".  Frankly, I could just respond with "The opposite of each of your conclusions is also possible."

What matters is if you have reason to believe something to be true, not whether or not something could be true.

By the way, I was pointing out your logical fallacies, so why don't you respond to that?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 02:36:43 PM
The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.

There's a huge difference between "possible" and "true".  Frankly, I could just respond with "The opposite of each of your conclusions is also possible."

What matters is if you have reason to believe something to be true, not whether or not something could be true.

From my readings, observations, experiences and ponderings, I believe God is the creator of the universe to be true.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 02:39:47 PM
The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.

There's a huge difference between "possible" and "true".  Frankly, I could just respond with "The opposite of each of your conclusions is also possible."

What matters is if you have reason to believe something to be true, not whether or not something could be true.

From my readings, observations, experiences and ponderings, I believe God is the creator of the universe to be true.

And from our readings, observations, experiences, and ponderings, we believe God doesn't exist.

Now this is what debating is made for.  We share our readings, observations, experiences, and ponderings with each other and see if they still make sense.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 02:43:26 PM

Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

People looking for something does not prove its non-existence

Quote
See, your mistake is using two different definitions of a word in the same way.  You say "There must be a higher power, and I call this higher power God".  That's one definition.  Then, you try to use the word "God" to refer to your Biblical God rather than just a higher power.  That's another definition.  Your problem is that you don't make the distinction.

The problem is I believe both definitions to be true.


Quote
Fail logic: Good philosophical advice doesn't prove it's factual.

The same book that provides the advice makes the claim. And, the good advice doesn't disprove the claim either.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 02:45:17 PM

Now this is what debating is made for.  We share our readings, observations, experiences, and ponderings with each other and see if they still make sense.

Right, and it's a debate because neither one of us can prove anything.

I think everything came from something and you think everything came from nothing.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 02:50:10 PM

Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

People looking for something does not prove its non-existence

Thing is, I'm not claiming it does.  You're the one who actually claimed people looking for something is evidence for its existence.

Quote
The problem is I believe both definitions to be true.

But you still can't use two different definitions on one word as if they're the same thing.

Quote

The same book that provides the advice makes the claim. And, the good advice doesn't disprove the claim either.

And I'm not the one claiming good advice proves anything.

Quote

Right, and it's a debate because neither one of us can prove anything.

I think everything came from something and you think everything came from nothing.

Where do you think God came from?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 03:03:09 PM

But you still can't use two different definitions on one word as if they're the same thing.


God= the higher power who created the universe
MyBibleGod=God

Quote
And I'm not the one claiming good advice proves anything.

Good advice proves intelligent thought.

Quote
Where do you think God came from?

Like Einstein thought of energy, I think of God. Neither created nor destroyed, but can show up in different ways/states.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 13, 2010, 03:05:07 PM
So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html
Quote
I look at the universe and sense something else is there.
You think you sense soemthing else is there.  Others claim the same thing and again have nothing to show for it.  What makes you think your version of "god" is the right one?  
Quote
We trust our senses in other areas.
Yes, we do and in some cases that's a very stupid thing to do.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet
Quote
Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt.
Sorry, no we don't.  No special powers in women at all. Being one of them, I should know.  Any other gal want to chime in?  :)  Now, if I know my husband likes to look at a fine butt, I of course will notice him doing it.
Quote
Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.
Again, appeal to popularity.  There is some evidence it seems for dark matter and dark energy but we haven't had much yet and the field is in its infancy. Yep, there is a lot of things we don't understand. But that is no reason to say "goddidit".  People have been saying goddidit for many many years and each time they say it, they're proven wrong since we find out more how the universe works.  Your god of the gaps is finding less gaps everyday. No longer is disease seen to be "god's will", we just do what we can to cure it.  
Quote
I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.
And here we go, with the beginnings of the attempt to claim that we don't know what "real" reality is.  Mark, which of the messages in teh bible make sense? The "love one another" or the "kill everyone who doesn't worship god "right"?  You pick and choose and you have no more idea if your version of "god" is right than anyone else. You create a "god" to fit your own personal fears and desires, just like every other theist.  Oh and that "love one another" that was around long before your agrarian xenophobes on the banks shores of the Mediterreanean.  


Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 03:15:17 PM

But you still can't use two different definitions on one word as if they're the same thing.


God= the higher power who created the universe
MyBibleGod=God

Just use "MyBibleGod" from now on when you use the second definition, or quit capitalizing "God" when you're using the first definition.

Quote
Good advice proves intelligent thought.

Good advice proves that specific thought was intelligent.

Quote
Like Einstein thought of energy, I think of God. Neither created nor destroyed, but can show up in different ways/states.

Yeah, and the Big Bang doesn't say something came from nothing either.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 03:23:53 PM


First of all that was Tim's Question, not mine. You are saying that the creator of the Universe is BibleGod, what if it was something else than Biblegod?

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there. I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.



So, how do assume that this being is worthy of or wants worship?, or that any part of any religion got it right at all? What if it just wants you to suffer being slowly digested? YOU ASSUME THAT WHICH IS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

How does the massage of God, who supposedly perfect, makes imperfect things, get upset at their imperfections even though he knew how they were going to play out, drowns most of them; then gets upset again and then send part of himself to sacrifice to himself to avert his own wrath....HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE???????????????????????????

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 03:27:23 PM
Just use "MyBibleGod" from now on when you use the second definition, or quit capitalizing "God" when you're using the first definition.

Will that change the possibility they may be the same or just make you feel warm and fuzzy?

Quote
Good advice proves that specific thought was intelligent.

Sheeeiiiittttt, you just split that hair right in half.

Quote
Yeah, and the Big Bang doesn't say something came from nothing either.

No, but I think it claims there was an event which had not occurred until it did which means somethin' happened which according to Newton implies something caused it.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 03:30:37 PM
[
The problem is I believe both definitions to be true.


Then you believe the creator of the universe is BibleGod. That is a postive claim with actual claimed attributes. Therefore appeals to ignorance like "lots of thing in the universe" or "you cannot disprove" are no longer valid.

You need to stop using them.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 03:39:56 PM
Just use "MyBibleGod" from now on when you use the second definition, or quit capitalizing "God" when you're using the first definition.

Will that change the possibility they may be the same or just make you feel warm and fuzzy?

Different definitions = Different words = Different usage.  Got it, or do you just like to disagree with everything I post?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 03:50:40 PM

Then you believe the creator of the universe is BibleGod. That is a postive claim with actual claimed attributes. Therefore appeals to ignorance like "lots of thing in the universe" or "you cannot disprove" are no longer valid.

You need to stop using them.

So if the BibleGod is the Creator God, then I have to understand everthing in the universe.

The writers of the Bible claim to have spoken or been spoken to by the Creator of the universe. Can you prove this claim false? Not, can you dismiss it because you don't like it or don't have fossils of the actual spoken words. Can you disprove their claim?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 03:52:19 PM

Different definitions = Different words = Different usage.  Got it, or do you just like to disagree with everything I post?

apple=fruit=seed pod
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 03:53:05 PM

Different definitions = Different words = Different usage.  Got it, or do you just like to disagree with everything I post?

apple=fruit=seed pod

Seed pod =/= fruit =/= apple
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agamemnon on October 13, 2010, 03:55:42 PM
Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?

I trust velkyn has given you a good start.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Azdgari on October 13, 2010, 03:56:25 PM
Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 04:05:05 PM
Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.

I didn't use it for multiple purposes. The God of my Bible is the higher power who created the universe- one God. one definition.

Is this coming out in English?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 04:06:34 PM
Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.

I didn't use it for multiple purposes. The God of my Bible is the higher power who created the universe- one God. one definition.

Is this coming out in English?

No, what you tried was this:

"Sea creatures exist, the Lochness Monster fits under the definition of a sea creature, so the Lochness Monster must exist."

Except in your case, the words have the same spelling.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 13, 2010, 04:07:12 PM
two quotes and replys from previous post

Quote
I look at the universe and sense something else is there.
You think you sense soemthing else is there.  Others claim the same thing and again have nothing to show for it.  What makes you think your version of "god" is the right one?  

Quote
We trust our senses in other areas.
Yes, we do and in some cases that's a very stupid thing to do.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet



This is typical of how you play intellectually dishonest word games Mark.  In the use of sense here you mean sense in an extraordinary way, not with our "normal" senses.

Here you use sense to mean our actual physical senses.

Then you continue to reason as if sense used either way was interchangeable thus trying to give additional credibility to sense  version

You change the real meaning of words to support an otherwise unsupportable assertion in defending your foregone conclusion.

sense =/= sense
Capeche??





 






Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 13, 2010, 04:15:04 PM

Then you continue to reason as if sense used either way was interchangeable thus trying to give additional credibility to sense  version

Capeche??


Capeche, because it isn't possible these 'abnormal' senses are, in fact, under developed 'normal' senses. Possibly, they are in their infancy in the evolutionary 'sense' since our awakening from Ape to Man.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 04:19:46 PM

Then you continue to reason as if sense used either way was interchangeable thus trying to give additional credibility to sense  version

Capeche??


Capeche, because it isn't possible these 'abnormal' senses are, in fact, under developed 'normal' senses. Possibly, they are in their infancy in the evolutionary 'sense' since our awakening from Ape to Man.

Fruits are possibly apples.  We don't use "fruits" and "apples" interchangeably.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 13, 2010, 04:19:58 PM


Capeche, because it isn't possible these 'abnormal' senses are, in fact, under developed 'normal' senses. Possibly, they are in their infancy in the evolutionary 'sense' since our awakening from Ape to Man.

Possibly you are as full of stuffing as the Christmas Goose.  :P
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 13, 2010, 04:20:02 PM
No, trash the motorcycle. If you give him a choice something may go wrong, so don't give him the option. If he wants something fun to do, he can stand still and worship you.

Really, you want to strap your kid to a hunk of metal with a motor and send him down the road and you're worried about whether it should have a sprinkler system or not?

No, Mark, that's not the question. Are you reading my post?

In this example, it's my will for my child to have the motorcycle, you see. I've built the motorcycle just for my kid. There's a flaw in my design, though. I know that the motorcycle will catch fire because of the flaw. Do I...

a) Change my design entirely so there is no longer a flaw?
or
b) Just add on a feature to put out the fire once it inevitably starts?

Also, you haven't addressed the rest of the points in my post, and I would like you to do so. Please stop ignoring them. The post is here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361883#msg361883).
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Azdgari on October 13, 2010, 04:25:37 PM
GG, could you fix the quotes in post #223?  Thanks.

Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.

I didn't use it for multiple purposes. The God of my Bible is the higher power who created the universe- one God. one definition.

Is this coming out in English?

The word "god" is a general noun, and refers to a category.
The word "God" is proper noun, and refers to your deity.

They are not interchangeable; they have different meanings.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: OnePerson on October 13, 2010, 04:27:49 PM
I swear, it's like arguing with a certain somebody again.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 13, 2010, 05:35:33 PM


So if the BibleGod is the Creator God, then I have to understand everthing in the universe.

No, that is not what I said. That settles it. I tried to keep denying it, but you are a troll.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 13, 2010, 05:36:49 PM
^ I've been thinking so.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: jetson on October 13, 2010, 06:11:05 PM
^ I've been thinking so.

When has it ever turned out otherwise? :)
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 13, 2010, 06:29:06 PM
GG, could you fix the quotes in post #223?  Thanks.



I can't seem to get it right  &)....can we just leave out.  :) 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 13, 2010, 06:30:00 PM
Anti-skeptic helmet, get your anti-skeptic helmet. Afraid of people trying to take away your belief in imaginary things? Want to spend the rest of your life afraid of boogeymen and praising a tyrannical maniac while thinking he's a loving father-God? Want to believe words from an ancient text without doubt? Want to live your life as a slave to an illusion? Do you want to think that Atheists are followers of some primal evil trying to kidnap you and have their wicked way with you? Then buy the new Anti-skeptic Helmet. Blindfolds are included along with earplugs and a security blanket. It's just 19.99 dollars. Order now and we'll throw in a pill that makes you even more deluded for free.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 13, 2010, 06:34:06 PM
Can I just order the pill?  ;D
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: voodoo child on October 13, 2010, 07:02:35 PM
 ;D ;D ;D I just don't the have the words, sorry  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Historicity on October 13, 2010, 07:38:40 PM
Want to spend the rest of your life afraid of boogeymen and praising a tyrannical maniac while thinking he's a loving father-God? Want to believe words from an ancient text without doubt? Want to live your life as a slave to an illusion?

YES, YES, YES!  That's why I just got Hellword, the latest film in the Hellraiser series. 

($5 in the economy bin at Wal*Mart.)

Oh, I do hope I will be frightened.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agga on October 14, 2010, 05:18:38 AM
Quote from:  Snooping
Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..


Last Active: 13 October 2010, 17:10:21


Why don't you come back to the threads you've started and hold a discussion, then I'll spend the time answering your question.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_A25 on October 14, 2010, 07:43:19 AM
Looks like his user name should have been "Trolling" rather than "Snooping."
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_011 on October 14, 2010, 07:50:34 AM
Last night I watched him look at all the threads he started, momentarily in two or three, and one for a few minutes. He then logged off manually.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: generousgeorge on October 14, 2010, 08:12:20 AM
Gotta wonder what the poor wretch gets out of doing this?  :P
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: kcrady on October 16, 2010, 04:25:35 AM
We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

Aside from the fact that Argumentum ad Baculum (the Argument from Force) is a fallacy, a threat is only as good as the agency responsible for carrying it out.  If I told you to give me all your money or the Care Bears will eat out your eyes and slowly skin you alive, it is highly unlikely you would take such a threat seriously.  Why not?  Because you have no reason to think that the Care Bears are anything more than fictional characters, or that they are willing or able to carry out the threat.  Likewise for your threat on Yahweh's behalf that he will torture us forever if we do not choose to (pretend to)[1] believe in his existence and worship him in the right way.

Your effort at terrorism cannot hope to succeed until you first demonstrate that Yahweh exists, that he is capable of conjuring "us" back into existence after our deaths[2] and that he is able to subject us to everlasting torture.  Then you would have to convince us that an eternity spent living in terror of such a malevolent being and groveling before him forever would not be as terrible a Hell or worse. 
 1. I am not convinced that it's possible to actually believe in anything as a matter of choice.  Could you really, honestly believe that the Moon is made of green cheese if someone promised to give you a ton of gold bullion if you did?  So much for "free will."
 2. Evidence that there will be anything left for him to torture after we die?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Agga on October 16, 2010, 01:01:22 PM
Gotta wonder what the poor wretch gets out of doing this?  :P
I reckon it was a school/church project or something.  Or maybe he is a pastor who had a sermon to write, so wanted some atheist input.  Or, maybe, he was just a guy on the fringe and wanted us to help him tip over the egde and fall off the cliffe of religious delusion.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: ksm on October 17, 2010, 12:25:46 AM
I'm PM'ed Snooping about this and other threads saying that it was bad form to post questions and then dissappear.

I was accused of being rude!

I requested specific examples of my rudeness, but I do not expect any answer.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_011 on October 17, 2010, 07:04:44 AM
^ Charming. It never ceases to amaze me how some people treat this forum as their personal playground, where they have rights that may never be challenged.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: natlegend on October 17, 2010, 08:59:31 AM
I want Snoop baaaaaaack! He was fun!
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Timtheskeptic on October 17, 2010, 01:57:29 PM
I want Snoop baaaaaaack! He was fun!

he was a good toy, i mean boy.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 19, 2010, 07:26:03 AM
People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Please reread my post above. I stated 'hell' is a result of the choice of man to separate himself from God, not a threat by God. It is not an Argementum ad Baculum. You should work more on reading comprehension and less on using inappropriate Latin phrases.

Quote from: kcrady
Aside from the fact that Argumentum ad Baculum (the Argument from Force) is a fallacy, a threat is only as good as the agency responsible for carrying it out.  If I told you to give me all your money or the Care Bears will eat out your eyes and slowly skin you alive, it is highly unlikely you would take such a threat seriously.  Why not?  Because you have no reason to think that the Care Bears are anything more than fictional characters, or that they are willing or able to carry out the threat.  Likewise for your threat on Yahweh's behalf that he will torture us forever if we do not choose to (pretend to)[1] believe in his existence and worship him in the right way.

Your effort at terrorism cannot hope to succeed until you first demonstrate that Yahweh exists, that he is capable of conjuring "us" back into existence after our deaths[2] and that he is able to subject us to everlasting torture.  Then you would have to convince us that an eternity spent living in terror of such a malevolent being and groveling before him forever would not be as terrible a Hell or worse.
 1. I am not convinced that it's possible to actually believe in anything as a matter of choice.  Could you really, honestly believe that the Moon is made of green cheese if someone promised to give you a ton of gold bullion if you did?  So much for "free will."
 2. Evidence that there will be anything left for him to torture after we die?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

Your perspective and interpretation are way off. Not surprising, given your lack of reading comprehension (see above).
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 19, 2010, 08:16:30 AM
Mark, since you've chosen to continue participating in this thread I remind you again to answer to my questions.

Otherwise I see a report to the mods about your stonewalling to be appropriate.

Mark, I'm still waiting for your reply to this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361874#msg361874) from to pages ago.

I'm especially interested in your answers to the following parts:

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

[...]

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.
Two questions then:

1) Is heaven perfect?

2) Is there free will in heaven?

Quote
No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.
Since when does an omnipotent entity have to "try like hell" to get something done, if it wants it done?

And once again: If God is omniscient and the creator of everything then God is not "trying like hell" to keep people from going to hell. In this case God not only knew what would happen to those people but actually decided to create the world in such a way that it would happen.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 19, 2010, 08:22:52 AM
^^
How is it poor comprehension on kcrady's part?

I hear this idea, that it is our choice to separate ourselves from god, thus end up in hell, kicked around a lot, but any way you look at it, there's still an inherent threat there.

There are plenty of things we separate ourselves from all the time. Some are interested in, say, sports, and some are not. If I choose never to watch or go to a football game, I am separating myself from it. Someone else may choose to avoid going to the opera or ballet. Others may opt out of certain cliques.

In none of these cases is the result eternal torment. At worst, they may miss something which they might have enjoyed had they been a bit more open, but in general, they will get to spend their time with things and people that they have a natural affinity for, and not worry about things they might have missed out on. In any case, they have solid, concrete proof that these things actually exist.

But in the case of god, the fact that some of us simply don't happen to believe in something which there is no evidence for is supposed to condemn us to an eternity of abject misery at the very best, and unimaginable suffering in the interpretation of many.

How is that a "fair" choice? If (hypothetically) the amount of experience or evidence we have of god is simply not enough to convince us he is real, and it turns out that he is, then, frankly, it's HIS fault if we end up in a state of eternal separation from him.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 19, 2010, 08:32:53 AM
Mark, since you've chosen to continue participating in this thread I remind you again to answer to my questions.

Otherwise I see a report to the mods about your stonewalling to be appropriate.

1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.

P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.


[modbreak]Pointless reposting removed[/modbreak]
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: cheezisgoooood on October 19, 2010, 08:39:56 AM
1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.

P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.
I guess we complain about it because no matter how many times you repeat it it still doesn't make sense.

Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.



[modbreak]Pointless reposting removed[/modbreak]
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 19, 2010, 08:47:05 AM
^^
How is it poor comprehension on kcrady's part?

I hear this idea, that it is our choice to separate ourselves from god, thus end up in hell, kicked around a lot, but any way you look at it, there's still an inherent threat there.

There are plenty of things we separate ourselves from all the time. Some are interested in, say, sports, and some are not. If I choose never to watch or go to a football game, I am separating myself from it. Someone else may choose to avoid going to the opera or ballet. Others may opt out of certain cliques.

Football, the opera, ballet and eternal life. Yeah, I see your point...not.

Quote
In none of these cases is the result eternal torment. At worst, they may miss something which they might have enjoyed had they been a bit more open, but in general, they will get to spend their time with things and people that they have a natural affinity for, and not worry about things they might have missed out on. In any case, they have solid, concrete proof that these things actually exist.

Separate yourself from your car at 80mph. I'm guessing that will be eternal.

As to hell, I have no real insight into why it is eternal. For now, I'm just taking His word for it. Since He seems aware of it and to have some knowledge on the subjuct. It just seems prudent.


Quote
But in the case of god, the fact that some of us simply don't happen to believe in something which there is no evidence for is supposed to condemn us to an eternity of abject misery at the very best, and unimaginable suffering in the interpretation of many.

How is that a "fair" choice? If (hypothetically) the amount of experience or evidence we have of god is simply not enough to convince us he is real, and it turns out that he is, then, frankly, it's HIS fault if we end up in a state of eternal separation from him.

Because you've been advised that it is how the thing works. Suns give warmth and light which I 'believe' is good. Black holes suck up everthing around them and crush matter into minutia which I believe is 'bad'. It is the way it is. Stay away from black holes. To me, that is good advice. You may decide to ignore or not 'believe' this advice, that is your choice. If some day you wind up in a black hole, you will probably blame me too.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 19, 2010, 08:55:43 AM
Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.

Asmoday's wasn't stupid. I just don't think you/he are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.



Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: cheezisgoooood on October 19, 2010, 09:01:46 AM
Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.

Yours wasn't stupid. I just don't think you are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.




The difference between a punishment and a consequence is whether or not someone created the consequence.

God created the consequence, therefore it's a punishment.  Hell wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, sin wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, God already knows everything we will ever do and where we will end up because he is all-knowing, so free will must not exist.  It's perfectly logical and there's no way to rectify it with theology because God is not a physical thing and you can't study imaginary concepts.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Asmoday on October 19, 2010, 09:02:40 AM
1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.
In which case you have just rendered your previous argument completely useless.

First you said evil (presented by the serpent in the garden and the devil) and imperfection are necessary for choice and free will but now you say the exact opposite, that the presence of evil or badness is not needed and that choice and free will are possible in a perfect place.

You can't have it both ways.

Either evil and imperfection are necessary (which means there is no free will and no "mutual, loving relationship" with God in heaven since perfection and absence of evil transforms you into a drone) or they are not necessary (which brings us back to the question why God created evil and and imperfect world in that case if he did not want suffering and is capable of doing better).

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Quote
That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets.
Funny thing is, Adam and Eve were exiled from the garden because they became more like God.
Going by the bible God never intended for them to have choice and free will (without knowledge about right and wrong you can't make decisions[1]).

Quote
Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.
I know that you like to see it that way, but that does not make it so.

The whining, pouting and belly aching comes from the theists when atheists inform them that saying something is true does not automatically make it true.

Quote
P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.
I don't care what you resent. You were stonewalling and you know it. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
 1. At least no decisions that are not chaotic.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: kcrady on October 19, 2010, 09:04:14 AM
Please reread my post above. I stated 'hell' is a result of the choice of man to separate himself from God, not a threat by God. It is not an Argementum ad Baculum. You should work more on reading comprehension and less on using inappropriate Latin phrases.

>snip<

Your perspective and interpretation are way off. Not surprising, given your lack of reading comprehension (see above).

So, by "separation from God" you mean that the rest of us will get to go to the Elysian Fields or Valhalla or the Duat or whatever, and only you Christians will end up chanting "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come" forever and ever?  In that case, only Christians go to Hell. ;)

Every other time I've seen a Christian use the "Hell = separation from God" argument, they go on to explain that since no good or pleasant thing can exist apart from Yahweh, Hell is still the epitome of misery and suffering (all the fire and brimstone descriptions are metaphors for this), even if there aren't demons poking people with pitchforks.  If this is your interpretation, then you're still using an Argumentum ad Baculum ("Believe what I say or you'll really, really, really suffer!  Forever!"), with a little semantic lipstick on the pig.

On the other hand, if the "sophisticated" Christian theologians are correct in arguing that Yahweh is the metaphysically necessary Ground of Being/root and source of Existence as such, then "separation from God" would entail non-existence.  IOW, "in Him we live and move and have our being" could not apply to anyone separated from Him (since such separation is incompatible with being "in Him").  Therefore we nonbelievers would Just Die (cease to exist as "us" in any sense) exactly as we expect.  On the other, other hand, it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that a non-existent person is "separate" from Yahweh or anything else.  

On the other, other, other hand, a Christian might assert that Yahweh would continue to prop up the existence of unbelievers so that they could eternally experience the misery of being alone in the Void (or whatever a separate-from-Yahweh existence is supposed to be like).  For Yahweh to remain "immanent" within and continually exert will/effort to sustain those he wishes to make miserable suggests an especially intimate kind of sadism on his part.  And maybe masochism too, if "omniscience" incorporates the "knowledge" of direct experience rather than being limited to an academic awareness-of-facts: he would have to experientially know ("in the Biblical sense") exactly what each and every person in Hell is feeling/thinking/experiencing at every instant of their tormented eternity.  

OTO4H, the whole "separation from God" argument is predicated on the idea that Yahweh's perfection cannot countenance even the tiniest most infinitesimal amount of "sin," so that any "sin" not covered by the Blood O' Jesus must be wholly extirpated from before the presence of the Lord.  If so, then Yahweh could not perpetuate the existence of unbelievers since he would also be perpetuating their "sin" and being immanent with it.  

Or is "sin" a self-existent force on a par with Yahweh?  Since it affects Yahweh so strongly that despite his putative omnipotence and inherent indestructible immortality he cannot endure its presence, it cannot be substantially weaker than he is and it cannot depend on him for its existence (otherwise Yahweh would be the author and creator of "sin").  So maybe Yahweh can somehow transfer the burden of sustaining the existence of unbelievers to "sin" somehow.  Hmmm...if it is impossible to have "sin" without a capacity for "sin" (i.e., no lust without attractive members of the appropriate gender, no gluttony without food, no pride without something to be proud of, etc.), maybe that means that Hell will be the ultimate party!  If so, that beats the pants of of the Eternal Church Service (see the descriptions in the Book of Revelation) Christians are promised!  Plus, we get Carl Sagan and Mark Twain and Hypatia of Alexandria, while they get St. Augustine and Carrie Nation and Jerry Falwell.  Unbelievers, FTW!

Of course, all that stuff is your swamp to drain, not ours, as we have no obligation to create a logically consistent Christian theology to debunk.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: CutePuppy on October 19, 2010, 09:05:45 AM
As to hell, I have no real insight into why it is eternal. For now, I'm just taking His word for it. Since He seems aware of it and to have some knowledge on the subjuct. It just seems prudent.

Well of course he is aware of it, he created it, after all. Much like how he allegedly created everything else, right?

Quote
Because you've been advised that it is how the thing works. Suns give warmth and light which I 'believe' is good. Black holes suck up everthing around them and crush matter into minutia which I believe is 'bad'. It is the way it is. Stay away from black holes. To me, that is good advice. You may decide to ignore or not 'believe' this advice, that is your choice. If some day you wind up in a black hole, you will probably blame me too.

We get those unsubstantiated threats from more religions than just yours. They're all utterly baseless. It's not good advice at all. Just one baseless assertion after another.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on October 19, 2010, 09:09:01 AM

The difference between a punishment and a consequence is whether or not someone created the consequence.

God created the consequence, therefore it's a punishment.  Hell wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, sin wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, God already knows everything we will ever do and where we will end up because he is all-knowing, so free will must not exist.  It's perfectly logical and there's no way to rectify it with theology because God is not a physical thing and you can't study imaginary concepts.

God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: cheezisgoooood on October 19, 2010, 09:13:38 AM
God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?
Guess who else is trying to keep me from the pain of being separate from him?  Allah.  Vishnu and Kirshna.  Zeus.  Thor.  All of the other gods who makes promises as long as you obey what they want you to.

You act like the specific god that you worship is the only one there has ever been, or is.  Sorry, but there's lots of gods that people worship, and like CutePuppy said, they all make threats to you if you don't obey them.

Your hot stove analogy is terrible.  In this case, I have a better one.  There are thousands of stoves surrounding you.  They all claim to give you immortality, and they all claim that every other stove in the room is burning hot and that you should not touch it.

I'm the one who decided not to touch any stove at all even though my momma told me to touch it.


[modbreak]Pointless reposting removed[/modbreak]
[modbreak]quote that was likely botched by..."someone", fixed [/modbreak]
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 19, 2010, 09:17:41 AM

Football, the opera, ballet and eternal life. Yeah, I see your point...not.
The point is that the choices we make in the limited lifetime we have are limited to that lifetime. And rightly so. And yet in Christian understanding,our eternity rests on a basically uninformed choice we make within the tiny blip of time which is our existence. It simply doesn't compute as anything like justice.


Separate yourself from your car at 80mph. I'm guessing that will be eternal.
Hardly relevant to the subject at hand. My car is very much a physical thing. And as far as my experience of that separation, it would pretty much be over in an instant.

As to hell, I have no real insight into why it is eternal. For now, I'm just taking His word for it. Since He seems aware of it and to have some knowledge on the subjuct. It just seems prudent.
That's certainly your perogative. But meaningless for those who don't happen to buy into the mythology.





Because you've been advised that it is how the thing works. Suns give warmth and light which I 'believe' is good. Black holes suck up everthing around them and crush matter into minutia which I believe is 'bad'. It is the way it is. Stay away from black holes. To me, that is good advice. You may decide to ignore or not 'believe' this advice, that is your choice. If some day you wind up in a black hole, you will probably blame me too.
Those are not exactly viable choices, now, are they? I happen to live on a planet which benefits from it's placement in relationship to the sun. And I'm not likely to come across any black holes. If I do, it certainly won't be because I decided to go fooling around in its neighborhood.

Whether the Christian mythology is simply part of "the way thing are" or not, the fact is that we have no way of knowing. And if God is a sentient being who cares about us as the mythology claims, he would have the power to give each and every one of us the amount of evidence we need to make an informed choice. And if he were a benevolent being, he surely would.


Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Omen on October 19, 2010, 09:19:20 AM
If god knows I will commit an act, before I commit that act, then what choice did I have?  How could I choose not to?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: kcrady on October 19, 2010, 09:36:41 AM
1. Yes [Heaven is perfect]
2. Yes. [There is free will in Heaven] That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

In that case, everyone goes to Hell, eventually.  If it is not possible to repent in Hell, then everyone ends up there eternally.  Why?  As long as free will exists, the option to "sin" exists.  No matter how improbable it might be that you would choose to "sin" in Heaven, given eternity that probability must eventually reach one (certainty).  Since a trip to Hell is permanent, the first time you have some slightly impure thought, like remembering what it felt like to have sex with someone not your spouse, or wish, just once, that you could do something other than sing hosanna's to the Lord (pity the poor Living Creatures of Revelation 4!) today--the trap door opens, and off to Hell you go.  That applies to you and to every one of Yahweh's holy angels.  Lucifer and those who joined him were just the first to realize this fact.[1]

This is inevitable because to exist at all as a being with a will distinct from Yahweh's (to have "free will") is to be different from Yahweh, i.e., not "like him" to the extent that you are "someone else."  Everything that makes you an individual, whether it's enjoying chocolate sundaes or pleasure in having sex with your spouse or liking football, is something that is not "like Yahweh" (unless you want to suggest that Yahweh derives pleasure from having sex with your wife...).  Since you cannot, as a created being, become Yahweh, you are inherently "not like him."  Your only option if you wish to try to remain in his good graces, is to turn yourself into a mindless tape recorder repeating his praises, like those poor Creatures have done.  "He must increase, but I must decrease."  You must, to the extent of your ability, cease to be an individual.  You must, in effect, seek to undo Yahweh's work in creating you as someone other than himself, an individual with free will, and become a passive mirror reflecting his image back to him.

But that suggests that it is possible to improve on Yahweh's work, to become more "like him" than he has made you, and that too is "sin."  The "sin" attributed to Lucifer[2] is to proclaim "I shall be like the Most High."  Yet, as you have said, to be unlike the "Most High" is also a sin, so it's a double-bind you can't escape.  You've got an eternity to make some tiny slip-up and end up in Hell with the rest of us.  Better hope it's not as bad as you Christians make it out to be.   
 1. In saying this, I'm treating the Bible as a story, in the same way I can talk about how Darth Vader might have felt when he started killing Younglings or why Obi-Wan abandoned him to burn and suffer on Mustafar instead of delivering a coup de grace.
 2. In context, a Babylonian king likened to "Haylel," a deity identified with Venus, the lesser light that heralds, but cannot equal, the Sun.  St. Jerome translated the Hebrew word into the Latin as "Lucifer," and then identified this as Satan's original name, but if you read the passage Isaiah 14, it is abundantly clear that it is referring to a mortal king with delusions of divine grandeur rather than an angel or spirit being.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 19, 2010, 11:15:29 AM
Asmoday's wasn't stupid. I just don't think you/he are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

aka, wah, you don't agree with me so I need to claim you don't want to understand.  That's sad, mark.  You haven't yet shown that anyone has demonstrated a lack of understanding only a lack of agreement with your version of Christianity.  You only want to whine that something is "lame" and try to depower your god so you can excuse it's impotence. 

Let me ask you, do you find the claims of Revelation to be literal?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_011 on October 19, 2010, 01:11:40 PM
cheezisgoood & markinark.

Think before you quote, chaps.


Thanks.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on October 19, 2010, 01:48:05 PM
Mark...

No, trash the motorcycle. If you give him a choice something may go wrong, so don't give him the option. If he wants something fun to do, he can stand still and worship you.

Really, you want to strap your kid to a hunk of metal with a motor and send him down the road and you're worried about whether it should have a sprinkler system or not?

No, Mark, that's not the question. Are you reading my post?

In this example, it's my will for my child to have the motorcycle, you see. I've built the motorcycle just for my kid. There's a flaw in my design, though. I know that the motorcycle will catch fire because of the flaw. Do I...

a) Change my design entirely so there is no longer a flaw?
or
b) Just add on a feature to put out the fire once it inevitably starts?

Also, you haven't addressed the rest of the points in my post, and I would like you to do so. Please stop ignoring them. The post is here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361883#msg361883).

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 19, 2010, 03:29:35 PM
The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Not lame at all, you're just ignoring the irrationality of your position.  You seem to think if you keep repeating if a=b, and b does not =c, then a=c, enough times it will start making sense.  It doesnt.  Please respond to my previous post on the subject:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361884#msg361884

I've actually got a few posts I was hoping you would respond to.  I know you're bogged down here, but maybe just one of them?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg362262#msg362262

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg362268#msg362268
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 19, 2010, 03:33:25 PM
1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.

Who the hell here has a problem with a myth stating that we will go to eternal damnation.  That would be like me worrying about Zeus striking me down with a lightning bolt.  He doesnt exist, so no need to worry about it.

Quote
P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.

I havent seen a response from you yet that had anything resembling thought or any logical basis.  Just using the "because the bible says so" argument isnt intelligent.  In your words, it's "just plain stupid".
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 19, 2010, 03:37:26 PM
Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?

Again, no one here blames this mythical being for anything.  When we point out the inconsistencies in his supposed actions we do so to point out the irrationality of your belief system. 

You are one of those who believed in the boogie man in the closet of your bedroom way, way, way beyond the age when your friends stopped believing that, arent you?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: screwtape on October 19, 2010, 04:36:23 PM
Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Could yhwh choose a different consequence?  In other words, could yhwh override our choice out of mercy?  Or is our choice (and the consequence) so powerful that even an omnipotent deity cannot change the outcome?  You see, you describe this as if it were a law of nature to which even yhwh is subject and has no power over.  But if you are the omnipotent creator of all that is, that means you also created the rules.  So no matter how you slice it, the arrangement with hell, however it is defined, is by yhwh's choice.  And since that is so, I don't see how you can possibly get around the conclusion that it is punishment.  Saying it is a "consequence" is a denial of responsibility, and a bad one at that.


You also seem to be hung up on blame.  That is, the idea that people are choosing separation from this "god" character.  I presume you would include atheists in that lot.  But here is the thing - I've not chosen to be an atheist.  I simply cannot make myself believe it[1].  I was a catholic for years and there came a point where it just stopped making sense.  I did not choose that.  So, I was separated from yhwh - assuming it exists - despite trying to find my way back it. I do not know how to "choose" to believe something I find preposterous.  If you tell me to try, I would ask that you first try to "choose" to believe in mermaids or leprechauns.  And I mean literal ones, with all the legendary and mythological baggage (just like yhwh's).  Not rationalizations for them or half baked explanations about dwarfism or dolphins.



Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God.

Whence does this definition come?  I've not seen it in the bible, but I am not altogether familiar with the NT.  I do know that your definition is inconsistent with the hebrew concept of Sheol.

Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice.

eh, that is not what the bible says...

Quote from: rev12:9
9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
rev12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012:9&version=NIV)

"Was hurled".  An action was taken upon him.


edit - added footnote for clarification.

 1. that there is a god as described in the bible and by various churches
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: ksm on October 20, 2010, 04:48:55 AM
Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.

Asmoday's wasn't stupid. I just don't think you/he are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Quite the contrary, since your god supposedly knew the ultimate destiny of all humans before the universe itself was created. This god knows everything going on in your head (your heart is a pump), because it determined, before the creation of the universe, what those thoughts would be.

Even events that are truly random (quantum events, radioactive decay) are fully planned by such a god. There can be no other outcome other than the outcome that this god planned before it created everything.

In order for you for you make any choice contrary to the future this god has preplanned (since before the act of creation), you need to be more powerful than it.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on October 20, 2010, 10:55:23 AM

The difference between a punishment and a consequence is whether or not someone created the consequence.

God created the consequence, therefore it's a punishment.  Hell wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, sin wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, God already knows everything we will ever do and where we will end up because he is all-knowing, so free will must not exist.  It's perfectly logical and there's no way to rectify it with theology because God is not a physical thing and you can't study imaginary concepts.

God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?

People who have children don't stay out of their children's lives, giving only vague clues that can be interpreted in so many ways as to make them effectively useless. Leaving the children with no way to determine whether their parents even exist without blind faith. Then give them unfathomable rules with no explanation as to why the rules are in place or why they should even be viewed as wrong. Then hold them to these rules and punish them for their violation. This is not the actions of a loving parent. This is the actions of, at best, a parent who doesn't care, and at worst a parent that is openly spiteful towards his children.

In the heart of a real parent, there is nothing more important that the love they feel for their child. If your child would suffer eternally just because they were separate from you, any decent parent would ensure that their children would never be separate from them. They would stay with the children, talk to and help them constantly and be an obvious presence in their lives, demonstrating their existence and their love for their child. And that's assuming that they weren't omnipotent and couldn't just make a thing like hell not exist. Or not be a consequence of not believing them.

Either way you look at it. Your god loses the loving-parent test epically.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on October 20, 2010, 12:35:14 PM
God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?

Are you ever going to get around to proof as to why your claims of God are different from any other claims of any other God?

Are you ever going to get around to addressing the salient point that your God supposedly set in motion everything, knowing that any possible difference could have changed the way people act, negates the entire possibility of freewill?

Are you ever going to address the part of the Myth that has God appearing before other people and beings does not negate their free will, but he vanishes from any independently varifiable history?

Are you ever going to adress that if freewill is a good, then it must exist in heaven. If heaven is free from pain and sin, then that means a complete lack Pain and Sin do not negate free will?

So many points that I see you dodging.


Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Positiveaob on October 21, 2010, 06:27:56 AM
In addition to these, I'd also like to see you address the issue of why such a god would have a "chosen people" and why they arent "chosen" any more.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: screwtape on October 27, 2010, 12:48:09 PM
Helloooo.  Markinark?  Where are you?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on October 27, 2010, 03:21:56 PM
poor thing, got nailed on the 19th and hasn't been back since. I do wonder what excuses he's telling himself, if he doesn't return.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on November 01, 2010, 10:44:35 AM
poor thing, got nailed on the 19th and hasn't been back since. I do wonder what excuses he's telling himself, if he doesn't return.

Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on November 01, 2010, 10:51:13 AM
but time to whine and not post any actual evidence of your claims.  Typical. 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Azdgari on November 01, 2010, 03:02:52 PM
Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.

FYI, abandonment is a concession.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: luckyace on November 01, 2010, 05:41:16 PM
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving

Well, he's obviously not loving. He hates gays because they're gay, doesn't mind drowning countless people or slaughtering hundreds.

Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (b) All Knowing

If he's all knowing, then why must you pray to him? He obviously already knows. Prayer is pointless.

Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Well, based on how he expects us all to believe in him based on a story written hundreds of years ago that really makes no sense if you read it cover to cover...

...I'd say he's not too bright.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Ashe on November 01, 2010, 05:42:57 PM
poor thing, got nailed on the 19th and hasn't been back since. I do wonder what excuses he's telling himself, if he doesn't return.

Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.


Denial?

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't even have time to get there since you haven't even addressed my post yet, despite the fact that I've been patiently waiting.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: screwtape on November 02, 2010, 11:24:39 AM
Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.

Please address this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg363514#msg363514), or I shall be forced to call you insulting names.  I mean, jesus christ, I went through the trouble to type it.  The least you could do is respond.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on November 03, 2010, 10:10:57 AM

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't even have time to get there since you haven't even addressed my post yet, despite the fact that I've been patiently waiting.

The motorcycle analogy just doesn't work for me.

My understanding is Heaven is full of angels and cherubs worshipping God all day, every day. He evidently thought Man was a better idea. My take is He thought a relationship was an idea whose time had come.

The real issue is dealing with the concept of pain and suffering in this world and eternal pain and suffering in the next. The Bible teaches this as the result of separation from God (sin). I see this as the result of choices by man.

This is not a foreign concept to us. Our parents raise us warning of the perils of life which can result in death (eternal in this world). Try as they might, that can't force us to behave. They can't protect us from everything because we are independent beings who make choices.

It is my belief that when this universe comes to an end there will be a consequence of where we are on a good/evil/+/-/light/dark basis. That reality of the 'other' world is unavoidable. As unavoidable as the physics of a black hole or a super nova. It is just the way it is.

Our choices brought us to this reality and our choices can take us back to where God wants us. Eternal damnation is a consequence and a warning, not a threat.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on November 03, 2010, 10:17:54 AM
Our choices brought us to this reality and our choices can take us back to where God wants us. Eternal damnation is a consequence and a warning, not a threat.


Acts 13:48 "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. "

Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. "

Eph. 1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. "

Thessalonians 2-11:12 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned. "

Tim 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. "

Jude 4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation. "

Romans 9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. "

I'm sorry, my reading comprehension skills must have suddenly gone away and left me. What was that about choice again? I'm sure I'm just reading things wrong and you can easily provide evidence that any choice in this matter exists, truly I am certain of this. I eagerly await for you to enlighten me with your vast wisdom.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on November 03, 2010, 10:24:55 AM
Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Could yhwh choose a different consequence? In other words, could yhwh override our choice out of mercy?  Or is our choice (and the consequence) so powerful that even an omnipotent deity cannot change the outcome?  You see, you describe this as if it were a law of nature to which even yhwh is subject and has no power over.  But if you are the omnipotent creator of all that is, that means you also created the rules.  So no matter how you slice it, the arrangement with hell, however it is defined, is by yhwh's choice.  And since that is so, I don't see how you can possibly get around the conclusion that it is punishment.  Saying it is a "consequence" is a denial of responsibility, and a bad one at that.

Yes, mercy is a concept of the Bible. Planning on God to pull your ass out at the last minute probably won't garner a lot of mercy.
God is not a rule. If I walk away from you, I'm creating the space between you and I.


Quote from: Screwtape
You also seem to be hung up on blame.  That is, the idea that people are choosing separation from this "god" character.  I presume you would include atheists in that lot.  But here is the thing - I've not chosen to be an atheist.  I simply cannot make myself believe it[1].  I was a catholic for years and there came a point where it just stopped making sense.  I did not choose that.  So, I was separated from yhwh - assuming it exists - despite trying to find my way back it. I do not know how to "choose" to believe something I find preposterous.  If you tell me to try, I would ask that you first try to "choose" to believe in mermaids or leprechauns.  And I mean literal ones, with all the legendary and mythological baggage (just like yhwh's).  Not rationalizations for them or half baked explanations about dwarfism or dolphins.
 1. that there is a god as described in the bible and by various churches

Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.



Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on November 03, 2010, 10:35:47 AM
but time to whine and not post any actual evidence of your claims.  Typical.  

But plenty of time to post more unsubstantiated claims, and ignore all those unfortunate points he seems so fond of evading
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on November 03, 2010, 10:41:19 AM


Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.


Yes just as your evaluation of the story of every other religion, myth, and farietale is your choice. You stopped believing in the tooth farie and Santa Claus, that was your choice.

So please seperate out how your favored mythology of Christianity is any different. How its claims to the wonderous, the supernatural, and the otherworldly are somehow superior. State it in a way that is logically consistent, does not appeal to ignorance, personal credulity, or current popularity. State it in a way that allows those claims to be verified in an objective and independently verifiable manner.

 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on November 03, 2010, 10:42:54 AM
Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.


Really? Cause I seem to recall that I just pointed out how it isn't choice. Seriously? You're going to just outright ignore the post above you and make a claim that directly goes against what it proves? This is good. I'm genuinely amused. I hope he comes back so my little monkey can dance for me again.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Azdgari on November 03, 2010, 10:53:04 AM
According to markinark's characterization of belief-behaviour, the his belief in the Bible as true is entirely a factor of his own choice.  It does not reflect on the Bible's contents, but only on his choice to believe them to be true.

I do not choose to believe that I am typing on a computer right now; I am compelled to believe it.  But markinark would hold that the belief I am typing on a computer is just as possible a "choice" as the belief that I am not.  His position holds that I believe I'm typing on the computer not because I am, but because I choose to believe it.

Solipsism at its finest.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: screwtape on November 03, 2010, 11:09:10 AM
Yes, mercy is a concept of the Bible. Planning on God to pull your ass out at the last minute probably won't garner a lot of mercy.
God is not a rule. If I walk away from you, I'm creating the space between you and I.

That does not answer the point.  Please give it another shot.

Quote from: Screwtape
I do not know how to "choose" to believe something I find preposterous.  If you tell me to try, I would ask that you first try to "choose" to believe in mermaids or leprechauns.  And I mean literal ones, with all the legendary and mythological baggage (just like yhwh's).  Not rationalizations for them or half baked explanations about dwarfism or dolphins.

Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.

markynark, that is just reasserting your original claim.  It is the philosophical equivalent of "yuh-huh!" It explains nothing.  It dodges the point.  I left the important points of my post as a refresher for you, since you apparently just ignored them.  How would you go about intentionally believing in leprechauns? 

OH! I have a good one for you!  This woman (http://www.techeye.net/internet/woman-says-3d-porno-made-her-pregnant) had a husband in Iraq when she got pregnant.  She is claiming she got preggo from watching a 3-D porno movie.  Suppose for just a moment you are her husband.  How do you go about making yourself believe her preposterous and obvious lie?

Are you saying you think you could also choose to cease believing in yhwh?  If so, that is very, very interesting.

Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on November 03, 2010, 11:37:16 AM
Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.

again, as has been already noted, you are making baseless claims about people being able to choose and not choose.  How can I choose to believe if your Bible has said in many places that I cannot?  I have been stuck with the brain that supposed your God gave me, complete with the skepticism that your God supposedly gave me.  And I get damned for using it?  So much for any claim of choice on your part, Mark. 

And as Hatter has so helpfully quoted me in saying, again we have no evidence of your claims, just the same crappy claims again. 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Whateverman on November 03, 2010, 11:51:59 AM
You know, it occurs to me that fundamentalist Christians actually DO choose to believe in (their interpretation of) God.  I mean, really, it takes effort to ignore information which contradicts an opinion or belief.  And that effort must be conscious rather than unconscious.  So - conscious effort is essentially "choice".

Is it any wonder, then, that they project this model of belief onto other people?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intellige
Post by: ParkingPlaces on November 03, 2010, 11:56:36 AM
Is it any wonder, then, that they project this model of belief onto other people?

It's probably a requirement. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to believe either.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intellige
Post by: Dante on November 03, 2010, 02:13:40 PM
Is it any wonder, then, that they project this model of belief onto other people?

It's probably a requirement. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to believe either.

I'm convinced they don't really believe.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: markinark on November 03, 2010, 02:27:00 PM
Kinda like this....

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/predestination.html
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: velkyn on November 03, 2010, 02:34:19 PM
if it's "kinda" like this, explain it in your own words. 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: cheezisgoooood on November 03, 2010, 02:37:39 PM
Your posts are getting shorter, Mark.  It's like you're too afraid to dive in again so you keep dipping your feet in real quick and then pulling back out.  What is it that keeps you coming back?
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Hatter23 on November 03, 2010, 02:44:38 PM
if it's "kinda" like this, explain it in your own words. 

And please while you are at it, avoid all those appeals to ignorance, circular reasoning, and dodging of the hard points like you have in the previous posts, Mark.

 
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Alzael on November 03, 2010, 02:53:49 PM
Kinda like this....

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/predestination.html


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I think I just shot skittles out my nose I was laughing so hard.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This is great Mark, just great.

So basically your argument, well actually this guys argument but I'll assume that you actually possessed the cognitive capacity to have made the argument yourself. Is that we have free will, except when god decides we don't have free will. This doesn't even support your earlier statement. It just says that god only sometimes decides who goes to hell and who doesn't regardless of actions or individual choices. So all you've done is made your god more of an arbitrary, non-committal f**kass than he already was. The article itself states that god puts people in places so that his will is accomplished. You and the author are just trying to shoehorn this concept in to somehow allowing us choice. Also notice how the article presents far, far less evidence for free will than it does for the other side?

But nevermind me. Go on, please. Caper for my amusement my, little Christian Monkey-Man.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: Operator_011 on November 03, 2010, 02:54:47 PM
This thread lost it's way a while back and is going around in circles, so I think it's time for it to visit the Pit.


I'm not going to mention any names, markinark, &) but the rules concerning backing up one's assertions still apply in the Pit.
Title: Re: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..
Post by: screwtape on November 03, 2010, 06:16:52 PM
I hesitate to make another post before markinark puts up a better reply to my previous posts, but this predestination page is too stupid to ignore.

Quote
I have tried to present a balanced examination of the issues regarding free will and predestination. It is obvious that the Bible teaches both concepts. Ultimately, I believe that God directs history. However, I do not believe that He micro-manages history. In other words, I think God places people in history so that His will is accomplished. This includes putting His followers, in addition to those who oppose Him, at strategic points in history. The Bible encourages us to use our free will to choose good over evil.

So yhwh tampers with the milestones but lets us get their on our own free will.  The problem is the butterfly effect.  There are so many choices available to so many people, the slightest wrong turn could throw it all irrevokably out of kilter. 

Just look at yourself.  For you to be who you are at this moment, it required an uncounted number of highly implausible events to occur.  If yhwh had you in mind to start with, and said "I'll make sure his parents met and leave the rest to chance," he'd have been fucked. Yhwh would have need a specific sperm cell carrying the exact right combination of DNA (or is it RNA for sperm?) to meet with just the right egg.  That means if your parents had successful copulation at any moment other than when they did, there would be no you.  There would have been someone else.  Heck, had your dad "gone off" one second sooner or one second later, there would be no you. 

Or is the assumption there that yhwh micromanaged the DNA?  Then that is as bad a no free will.  That is the illusion that your choices matter, but they really don't, they lead to the same conclusions no matter what.  We D&D nerds call this "railroading". 

Let's assume this is what yhwh does with DNA.  That still leaves the uncounted moments of your life's experiences, the little choices.  That would literally require yhwh tipping the scale continually to ensure you end up exactly where you are now.  The whole idea that yhwh meddles only a little is preposterous.