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Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: AlexBP on September 09, 2010, 07:54:56 PM

Title: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 09, 2010, 07:54:56 PM
I just saw the video on YouTube and I find virutally everything in it to be untrue.  First of all, the video says that I am intelligent--an obvious falsehood.  And my lack of intelligence may mean that I'm unfit to make a response, but nonetheless the links invited me here, so here I am.

First of all the video attempts to prove that Christians disobey Jesus.  In this it fails because it misinterprets what Jesus said.  To see why we must understand the concept of a metaphor, which is a type of figurative language wherein someone says one thing that's not literally true because it illustrates a point in a vivid way.  Hence when William Blake wrote:

Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night.


He did not actually mean us to infer that there was a tiger on fire in a nighttime forest; rather, the "burning" is a metaphor for the tiger's ferocity.  (And the tiger itself is a metaphor for human impulses, but I digress.)  Likewise when Shakespeare wrote:

All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players.

He did not literally mean it, but instead meant it to deal metaphorically with how human behavior is shaped by the social roles we are expected to play.

So similarly, when Jesus said: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off", he was not advising us to get a saw and cut off our hands, but rather to remove any portion of our personal attitudes or behavior that was leading us into sin.

Similarly with most of your other demonstrations of supposed disobedience to Jesus, once His words are interpreted correctly your argument vanishes.

As for the claim that the United States having a military somehow proves that we don't love our enemies, it does not.  Why would killing our enemies indicate that we don't love them?  Throughout most of history there's been no contradiction between the two.

There are other things in the video that I disagree with as well.  For example, it says that "our prisons are overflowing with criminals who are Christians."  I don't believe that this claim is true and no source is provided to backup the claim.  Further, just because someone is in prison doesn't mean that he's violent.  Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., was sent to prison because he was peaceful.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: HAL on September 09, 2010, 08:04:03 PM
First of all, the video says that I am intelligent--an obvious falsehood.  And my lack of intelligence may mean that I'm unfit to make a response, but nonetheless the links invited me here, so here I am.

So does that mean you'll restrict yourself to the Chatter board from now on?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Emily on September 09, 2010, 08:08:33 PM
Welcome to the site.

  For example, it says that "our prisons are overflowing with criminals who are Christians."  I don't believe that this claim is true and no source is provided to backup the claim. 

Here are some figures of the religious population in jail.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

Something like 65 percent are religious.

Quote
Further, just because someone is in prison doesn't mean that he's violent.

Yeah but those Christians in prison did something to break Jesus' rules. It doesn't matter what they did to land in jail; but there are there and did something to make Jesus cry, ergo, they disobeyed Jesus.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: MockTurtle on September 09, 2010, 08:29:02 PM
So similarly, when Jesus said: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off", he was not advising us to get a saw and cut off our hands, but rather to remove any portion of our personal attitudes or behavior that was leading us into sin.

What about when he said "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (Luke 12:33)

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 09, 2010, 08:40:49 PM
Welcome Alex

To see why we must understand the concept of a metaphor, which is a type of figurative language....

Thank you for treating us like uneducated idiots.  We appreciate the condescension.  Not really.  We hate it.  Maybe it would be better to assume we are at least as educated as you.  If you feel we are having a hard time keeping up, address it then.

So similarly, when Jesus said: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off", he was not advising us to get a saw and cut off our hands, but rather to remove any portion of our personal attitudes or behavior that was leading us into sin.

How do you know that?  How can you be sure?  You see, with the literary examples you used, we can interpret them many ways without fear that we are "doing it wrong".  The penalties for that are nil.  But with jesus H, we are presumptively talking about potential eternal damnation.  So getting the interpretation right is literally everything.  Jesus H said some things that he meant literally, right?  Not everything was a metaphor.  So how do you tell which is which.  I would like a little more in the way of guidelines to know which things jesus H said were literal and which were metaphorical.


Why would killing our enemies indicate that we don't love them?

It seems pretty obvious to me why we would not kill people we love.  It is kind of a tautology.  Have you ever killed anyone you loved?  Can you even imagine killing someone you love without feeling uncomfortable?

Throughout most of history there's been no contradiction between the two.

What the flip are you talking about?  Please give me an example.




Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 09, 2010, 10:34:17 PM
Hi AlexBP!

Mind if I borrow your magic decoder ring for a while, so I can "correctly" interpret the bible?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"
Post by: kin hell on September 10, 2010, 12:27:17 AM
Quote from: AlexBP
Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night.



Firstly .............if you are here to school us then please attempt to get it right.


Or if you are going to alter reality to promote your altar reality

try "s"  for subtlety      

Quote
Tyger Tyger, burning brights,
In the forests of the night :
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

William Blake + s

EDIT   removed toothache spasm
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 10, 2010, 04:06:24 AM
First of all the video attempts to prove that Christians disobey Jesus.  In this it fails because it misinterprets what Jesus said.

Let me guess... your particular denomination out of the 38000 possible denominations has the one truely correct interpretation of the bible?

Sucks to be the other 37999, not to mention the other 66% of the population of the planet that's not christian. What makes you so special that your interpretation of the bible is the correct one?

Quote
So similarly, when Jesus said: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off", he was not advising us to get a saw and cut off our hands, but rather to remove any portion of our personal attitudes or behavior that was leading us into sin.

Interesting ... that's a metaphor... saying his body is bread and his blood is wine is a metaphor... so...

When the bible says Jesus fed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and fish... is that meant to be taken as metaphor? How should I interpret this?

The bible claims Jesus fed 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish (Matthew 14:13–21, Mark 6:31-44, Luke 9:10-17 and John 6:5-15) and also 4000 people with 7 loaves of bread and 7 fish (Mark 8:1-9 and Matthew 15:32-39).

Metaphorical?

Quote
Similarly with most of your other demonstrations of supposed disobedience to Jesus, once His words are interpreted correctly your argument vanishes.

You would think that Jesus, the son of god and in essence god himself ... would have made their holy book... the supposedly most important book of all time... clear and easy to understand instead of a bunch of "metaphors". If it's god word it should mean what it says.

Fact is, you are interpreting the bible they way it makes sense to you.

You need to reconcile the vile disgusting verses written by primitive barberic men thousands of years ago with your own modern sense or morality. This leads to spinning, bending and twisting bible verses to mean what you want them to mean and not what they actually mean.

There is no god, there was no jesus (the the biblical character anyway) and the book is a bunch of myths written thousands of years ago. Our morality and understanding of the universe and our place in it has moved on vastly since then. Get with the times.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 10, 2010, 05:02:16 AM
...once His words are interpreted correctly your argument vanishes.

And there's the rub, as has been pointed out.  You may want to consider these questions....

1) How do you know how to correctly interpret Jesus' words?
2) When two Christians differ on their interpretations, how do you determine who (if either) has it right?
3) Why would a loving, benevolent god write a book that required interpretation?  That two equally devout believers are capable of interpreting differently?

Welcome to the forum, by the way.  Hope you stick around.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 08:09:52 AM
Welcome to the site.

Here are some figures of the religious population in jail.

Something like 65 percent are religious.

Yeah but those Christians in prison did something to break Jesus' rules. It doesn't matter what they did to land in jail; but there are there and did something to make Jesus cry, ergo, they disobeyed Jesus.
Emily, thank you for welcoming me to the board so politely.

In response to the figure that 65% of those in jail are religious, even if that's true, it would hardly justify that claim that "our prisons are overflowing with Christians who have committed violent crimes".  Also, since 83% of the American population is Christian, that means the percentage of those in jail is much less religious than the population at large.  Here's a poll for that figure.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html

But the real question is the last two sentences in your response.  You say that "those Christians in prison did something to break Jesus' rules", but you don't provide any justification for that statement.  There is no necessary connection between the two things.  If I recall correctly, Stephen, Peter, Paul, and other members of the early Church went to jail precisely because they did obey Jesus.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that Jesus himself had a run-in with the law.  The bottom line is that you're assuming, if you agree with the video, that anyone who goes to jail has done something violent, but there's no reason t assume such a thing.  Again, like I said, Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and members of his congregation were sent to jail because they spoke and marched for their God-given rights.  As Rev. King himself said:

"There are two ways to break the law, from below or from above.  We should never forget that on calvary, three men were executed for breaking the law.  Two thieves broke the law from below.  Jesus Christ broke the law from above.  ...  So when you call me a law-breaking extremist, I will accept that title with pride."

So do you think that what Rev. King did was wrong, or are you willing to admit that some people go to jail for doing what is right?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 08:14:23 AM
What about when he said "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (Luke 12:33)
Telling people to sell their possessions and give to the poor sounds like excellent advice to me.  Christians all over the world follow this advice all the time.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: HAL on September 10, 2010, 08:17:20 AM
Telling people to sell their possessions and give to the poor sounds like excellent advice to me.  Christians all over the world follow this advice all the time.

Really?

(http://www.atheistthinktank.net/HAL/theology/megavulture1.jpg)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 10, 2010, 08:28:04 AM
What about when he said "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (Luke 12:33)
Telling people to sell their possessions and give to the poor sounds like excellent advice to me.  Christians all over the world follow this advice all the time.

An observation ...

It's funny the verse doesn't say 'give away your possesions'... it says to sell them. In order to sell them, people need to pay for them with money. If everybody tried to sell there would be no buyers and so no one could follow this rule. Duh!
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Don_Quixote on September 10, 2010, 09:07:27 AM
What about when he said "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (Luke 12:33)
Telling people to sell their possessions and give to the poor sounds like excellent advice to me.  Christians all over the world follow this advice all the time.

An observation ...

It's funny the verse doesn't say 'give away your possesions'... it says to sell them. In order to sell them, people need to pay for them with money. If everybody tried to sell there would be no buyers and so no one could follow this rule. Duh!


Oh noo you get it the wrong way! The idea is to sell your sins to the devil so you can give away your good personal things to the ones who need it!
(SARCASM) Yeah that's my own interpretation and they all got it wrong  >:(
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: hickdive on September 10, 2010, 09:29:23 AM
So, the story of christ rising from the dead is a metaphor?

Or are the stories of miracles performed by jesus metaphors too?

If not, why not and how do we tell the difference between what is intended as a metaphor and which is literal truth?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 10, 2010, 09:37:10 AM
hickdive: You need the magic decoder ring, but you're going to have to wait, because I get it first.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on September 10, 2010, 09:54:39 AM
AlexBP, welcome to the forums.  I must strongly encourage you to address the posts that question your knowledge on the "correct" interpretation of the bible.  I feel they strongly counter your point and am quite interested in how you might refute them. 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: William on September 10, 2010, 09:58:45 AM
As Rev. King himself said:

"There are two ways to break the law, from below or from above.  We should never forget that on calvary, three men were executed for breaking the law.  Two thieves broke the law from below.  Jesus Christ broke the law from above.  ...  So when you call me a law-breaking extremist, I will accept that title with pride."

So do you think that what Rev. King did was wrong, or are you willing to admit that some people go to jail for doing what is right?

That is the same false reasoning that underpins burning witches at the stake, doing 9/11 style terrorism, or gunning down a doctor who performed an abortion.

There is no such thing as "breaking a law from above." EDIT: Laws can be unjust, or stupid, or impractical - but that is to do with the law itself, regardless of some moral stance of the law breaker.

Plenty of people go to jail unjustly, or are persecuted for courageously standing up for good causes.  But a good cause is good whether it is religiously motivated or not.  The problem that atheists see is when bad causes are advanced in the name of religion by otherwise good people.  Religion is wrong about so much - it's a dangerous place to look for what is right.  
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 10, 2010, 11:14:40 AM
I just saw the video on YouTube and I find virutally everything in it to be untrue.  First of all, the video says that I am intelligent--an obvious falsehood.  And my lack of intelligence may mean that I'm unfit to make a response, but nonetheless the links invited me here, so here I am.
love the false humility.

As usual with theists and especially Christians, you have decided that you and only you know what God "really" meant.  Funny on how Christians disagree with each other.  Can't your holy spirit get the same message through? You all claim that you and only you know how to "correctly" interpret and you all contradict each other.
Quote
As for the claim that the United States having a military somehow proves that we don't love our enemies, it does not.  Why would killing our enemies indicate that we don't love them?  Throughout most of history there's been no contradiction between the two.
Bwwaaahahaaaaaaaa ;D  oh my.  And I loev how you appeal to "history" for you nonsense.  Yep, please do show how love someone and killing them is connected, other than a mercy killing which is a rarity, though it does happen.
Quote
There are other things in the video that I disagree with as well.  For example, it says that "our prisons are overflowing with criminals who are Christians."  I don't believe that this claim is true and no source is provided to backup the claim.  Further, just because someone is in prison doesn't mean that he's violent.  Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., was sent to prison because he was peaceful.
Appeal to ignorance. As long as you don't believe it, it's magically not true.  I love how you try to claim that even *if* there were plenty of Christians in prison(a fact that has been demonstrated) well, the would all be just lambs.  It's just too funny.  I believe that MLK was in the Birmingham jail.  And indeed good people can findn themselves in jail.  I don't think the millions in our prison system who self-identify as Christians are like MLK, various other civil rights activists, etc.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: AlexBP
Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night.

Firstly .............if you are here to school us then please attempt to get it right.

Or if you are going to alter reality to promote your altar reality

try "s"  for subtlety      

Quote
Tyger Tyger, burning brights,
In the forests of the night :
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
William Blake + s

EDIT   removed toothache spasm
There is nothing wrong about changing Blake's original "Tyger" to "Tiger".  Changing archaic spellings to modern ones is perfectly normal when quoting old material.  In any case, nitpicking about spellings does not accomplish much as far as building a defense of the incorrect statements in the video.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: MockTurtle on September 10, 2010, 11:26:52 AM
What about when he said "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (Luke 12:33)
Telling people to sell their possessions and give to the poor sounds like excellent advice to me.  Christians all over the world follow this advice all the time.

So after running it through the magic decoder ring, Luke 12:33 says "Sell some of your possessions, you know, the crap you were not really using anyway, spend most of it on more frivolous crap, but if it's not too inconvenient, give to the capital campaign to build a new wing on our mega-chuch with a coffee shop and recreation center, support ultra-conservative politicians in their defense of big corporations, and if there is any left over, put it in this box and we'll pretend to use it to build an orphanage in Guatemala."
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"
Post by: Dante on September 10, 2010, 11:40:24 AM

There is nothing wrong about changing Blake's original "Tyger" to "Tiger".  Changing archaic spellings to modern ones is perfectly normal when quoting old material.  In any case, nitpicking about spellings does not accomplish much as far as building a defense of the incorrect statements in the video.


Well, he's got you there...... &)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"
Post by: kin hell on September 10, 2010, 12:00:49 PM
Quote from: AlexBP
Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night.

Firstly .............if you are here to school us then please attempt to get it right.

Or if you are going to alter reality to promote your altar reality

try "s"  for subtlety      

Quote
Tyger Tyger, burning brights,
In the forests of the night :
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
William Blake + s

EDIT   removed toothache spasm
There is nothing wrong about changing Blake's original "Tyger" to "Tiger".  Changing archaic spellings to modern ones is perfectly normal when quoting old material.  In any case, nitpicking about spellings does not accomplish much as far as building a defense of the incorrect statements in the video.


non-sense of humour eh Alex?

not two brights are we ?






fundamentally there's you
and freely I admit there's me

on either side of  this the...ism chasm
you with your faithful stance
me with my ridicule


so you raise the subject of your god's book being ?riddled?[1] with metaphor
I'll see that cynical abet
and raise you an eyebrow,  a pause, and a weary ...........sez who?




 1. riddle 2 |?r?dl| |?r?d(?)l|
verb [ trans. ]
1 (usu. be riddled) make many holes in (someone or something), esp. with gunshot : his car was riddled by sniper fire.
• fill or permeate (someone or something), esp. with something unpleasant or undesirable : the existing law is riddled with loopholes.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 12:27:04 PM
Welcome Alex
Thank you for the polite greeting.
Quote
Thank you for treating us like uneducated idiots.  We appreciate the condescension.  Not really.  We hate it.  Maybe it would be better to assume we are at least as educated as you.  If you feel we are having a hard time keeping up, address it then.
You hate condescension?  How do you think we Christian feel while watching all those videos that treat us like idiots?  We hate it to.  So if you're to lecture me about not being condescending, I think there's a quote from somewhere about "removing the beam from your own eye before complaining about the mote in someone else's" that might be relevant here.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that most people on this forum understand the concept of metaphors, but whoever made this video obviously does not, since he took metaphorical passages and interpreted them literally.  Therefore he is having a hard time keeping up with an idea that most people learn in elementary school, and I was hoping to get a response directly from him, though it appears that I won't.  Explaining what a metaphor is certainly shouldn't be necessary, but in the case of this particular person it is necessary.

Quote
How do you know that?  How can you be sure?  You see, with the literary examples you used, we can interpret them many ways without fear that we are "doing it wrong".  The penalties for that are nil.  But with jesus H, we are presumptively talking about potential eternal damnation.  So getting the interpretation right is literally everything.  Jesus H said some things that he meant literally, right?  Not everything was a metaphor.  So how do you tell which is which.  I would like a little more in the way of guidelines to know which things jesus H said were literal and which were metaphorical.
Regardless of whether we're looking at "Tiger, tiger", "All the world's a stage", or "if thy hand causes thee to sin", the metaphorical interpretation is the correct one.  Jesus, Shakespeare, and Blake all simply assumed that their audience would be competent at recognizing metaphors and other types of figurative language.  To say that metaphors get in the way of proper understanding is untrue.  I've never encountered any trouble from anyone in interpreting any of these correctly until I saw that video.  Even small children can get it right, so the fact that the video's maker got it so totally wrong doesn't to much to justify the tone of smug intellectual superiority that pervades the video.

Also, the name is Jesus Christ, not Jesus H.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 12:38:10 PM
It seems pretty obvious to me why we would not kill people we love.  It is kind of a tautology.  Have you ever killed anyone you loved?  Can you even imagine killing someone you love without feeling uncomfortable?

What the flip are you talking about?  Please give me an example.
I am not a professional soldier, so the question of my personal feelings is moot here.

As for the second question, there are plentiful examples.  There was a famous episode during World War One where the British and German soldiers were in te trenches, shooting at each other.  On Christmas Eve,  1917, they laid down their guns, go out in "no man's land" between the two sets of trenches, and played a friendly game of soccer.  Later they returned to their trenches and the war continued.  During the American Civil War, soldiers on the two sides often traded with each other, offering things that were hard to find in the opposite side's camp such as tobacco and whiskey.  And for centuries there was a tradition that a solider killed in enemy territory would be buried in a nearby cemetary or other appropriate spot with full military honors.  So there's ample evidence that it's possible for two nations to go to war while people on each side still hold appropriate attitudes towards the other.




[modbreak]Attributed quotes[/modbreak]
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 10, 2010, 12:47:51 PM
You hate condescension?  How do you think we Christian feel while watching all those videos that treat us like idiots?  We hate it to.  So if you're to lecture me about not being condescending, I think there's a quote from somewhere about "removing the beam from your own eye before complaining about the mote in someone else's" that might be relevant here.

No it is not relevant here. Screwtape didn't make the videos. I didn't make the videos. The person that made the videos actually has very little to do with the forum.

So you have no reason to abuse us with condescending language for something someone else did.

Edit: Also, I would like to point out that this isn't a very "Christian" attitude you have.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 12:49:59 PM
Anfauglir, thank you for your polite response.  I will respond to one question at a time since my browser starts causing trouble when I try to make long posts.
And there's the rub, as has been pointed out.  You may want to consider these questions....

1) How do you know how to correctly interpret Jesus' words?
I don't claim to have a completely correct understanding of everything Jesus said, but some examples, including the relevant ones from this video, are quite straightforward and I interpret them as I'd interpret everything else.  Every day I have scores of conversations, read several books or articles, watch TV, and listen to the radio.  As I do so I encounter figurative language all the time and I interpret it using common sense.  If someone says, "It's raining cats and dogs", I interpret that as meaning that it's raining hard, because that's the logical interpretation.

It's clear that most people in this thread are going to attack me because they're unable to defend the video, but I get the impression that you're looking for an honest debate.  Assuming that you're a defender of the video, the question can be turned around.  The video's entire case is based on the assumption that Jesus meant each of the quoted phrases to be taken literally, and based on this claims that Jesus was "crazy" and "insane".  Lose that ridiculous interpretation of Jesus' words and the whole video falls apart and looks rather pathetic.  So how exactly do you, on behalf of the video maker, know how to correctly interpret Jesus' words? 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 10, 2010, 12:54:06 PM
You hate condescension?  How do you think we Christian feel while watching all those videos that treat us like idiots?  We hate it to.  So if you're to lecture me about not being condescending, I think there's a quote from somewhere about "removing the beam from your own eye before complaining about the mote in someone else's" that might be relevant here.

Save your righteous indignation for the right person.  I did not make the videos.  Nobody here did.  I would not have to lecture you on manners if you did not come into our living room and act like a twat.  You could have inquired about it first or explained your point of view without talking down to anyone. But you didn't. So, I felt you needed some schooling in manners.  If you don't like it, feel free to whine ineffectually like a little girl with a skinned knee some more.


Regardless of whether we're looking at "Tiger, tiger", "All the world's a stage", or "if thy hand causes thee to sin", the metaphorical interpretation is the correct one. 

Sez you.  Why should I believe you, of all people, have the correct answer?  Explain why you are so sure.  I am specifically referring to the bible, not the literature.  I don't actually care about the literature because no one is telling be I should live my life according to the works of either William.

Jesus, Shakespeare, and Blake all simply assumed that their audience would be competent at recognizing metaphors and other types of figurative language. 

That is just restating your initial claim and does not answer my question.  Jesus intended for some things to be taken literally, correct?  And some of those literal things are preposterous.  Like walking on water, multiplying fish and bread, banishing demons, and dead rising from the grave.  How do you know those are not metaphors too?  How do you know the difference?  What are the rules/ criteria by which you judge whether these stories are metaphors?

To say that metaphors get in the way of proper understanding is untrue. 

They can get in the way if the metaphor is crap or if it is not an obvious metaphor.  To say they never get in the way is just as silly as saying they always get in the way.  

I've never encountered any trouble from anyone in interpreting any of these correctly until I saw that video. 

That still does not answer my question.  Is the flood that noah escaped a metaphor?  How about the creation myth?  How about the whole Babel fiasco?  There is a great deal of argument amongst xians whether those were literal or metaphorical.

Even small children can get it right, so the fact that the video's maker got it so totally wrong doesn't to much to justify the tone of smug intellectual superiority that pervades the video.

So saying we/ the video maker is dumber than small children is not taking a smug, intellecutally superior attitude?  

Also, the name is Jesus Christ, not Jesus H.

meh.  You know who I mean.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: HAL on September 10, 2010, 12:54:14 PM
So how exactly do you, on behalf of the video maker, know how to correctly interpret Jesus' words? 

How do you know how to interpret Jesus word's? Did he tell you how himself?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 10, 2010, 12:57:48 PM
Lose that ridiculous interpretation of Jesus' words and the whole video falls apart and looks rather pathetic.

My wife doesn't think it is a ridiculous interpretation. She's a strict fundamentalist Christian and believes every word of the bible is the literal truth.

I guess I need to let her use your magic decoder ring, too, so she can get right with God.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 01:01:44 PM
2) When two Christians differ on their interpretations, how do you determine who (if either) has it right?
The same way I would approach any disagreemnt: by looking at the arguments presented by each side, evaluating those arguments, studying the relevant background information, and applying logic.

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3) Why would a loving, benevolent god write a book that required interpretation?  That two equally devout believers are capable of interpreting differently?
First of all, God did not write the gospels.  They were written by apostles Matthew and John and by Luke and Mark, companions of apostles.  As to why the Bible requires interpretation, all books require interpretation.  You might as well ask why it contains words.  Third, you say "that two equally devout believers are capable of interpreting differently" as if that was a bad thing, but it isn't necessarily.

However, the question of believers interpreting things differently is irrelevant to this thread and the discussion of the video.  The video takes a passage that all believers interpret the same way and misinterprets that passage.  I'm looking for someone who can explain why I should take such a video seriously, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do so.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 10, 2010, 01:10:05 PM
I am not a professional soldier, so the question of my personal feelings is moot here.

I was not so much interested in your personal feelings but more in getting you to see how preposterous your statement was:
Why would killing our enemies indicate that we don't love them?

I tried to get you to see a different (sane? rational?) perspective.  Pick someone you love. Imagine killing him or her.  Is that consistent with what you think of as "love"?  It is not, for me anyway.  Killing them is the last thing I would want to do to the people I love.  I can think of a few exceptions, but they tend to relate to end of life conditions and terminal illnesses.  

Your interpretation of jesus H's directive to love your enemy seems to me to fly in the face of what he meant.  
Quote from: Matt5:43-48
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I don't see any allowance for killing.

So there's ample evidence that it's possible for two nations to go to war while people on each side still hold appropriate attitudes towards the other.

But that was not what we were talking about, was it?  We were talking about whether killing people you love was consistent with what love is.  This has nothing to do with that.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 10, 2010, 01:11:37 PM
I'm looking for someone who can explain why I should take such a video seriously, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do so.

To be honest, I've not even seen the video, so I'm not your guy for that..
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 10, 2010, 01:26:58 PM
I'm looking for someone who can explain why I should take such a video seriously, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do so.

I'm looking for someone who can explain why I should take Christianity seriously, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do so.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gnu Ordure on September 10, 2010, 01:30:51 PM
Alex:
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Third, you say "that two equally devout believers are capable of interpreting differently" as if that was a bad thing, but it isn't necessarily.
Agreed.

But look at what the Catholics and Protestants did to each other for hundreds of years in Europe, based on their different interpretations of the New Testament.

And look at what Christians and Muslims have done to each other over the centuries, based on their different interpretations of the Bible.

You see the problem here?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 10, 2010, 02:27:18 PM
you are an amusing fellow, Alex.  You want to call the action of soldiers in wartime "love".  That's stretching it pretty badly to attempt to defend your claims. 

Second, you want to claim that something is "straightforward" in the bible.  Again, you all do this, want to claim that it should be "obvious" that you are correct in your individual intepretation. We have another Christian here, Micah, who also claims the same thing and like you has no evidnce to back themselves up.  And to someone who wasn't familiar with the colloquialism, "raining cats and dogs" would have no "logical" meaning whatsoever. 

People will question your claims because they are bad.  Not because they can't defend the video.  You want to pick and choose which verses are literal and which are metaphor and you have no better reason to do so other than some make you uncomfortable if they are literal because to a 21st century mind, they sound ridiculous or even evil at times.  You want to excuse this bronze age myth so you can cling to your belief in it since you have invested so much in it. 

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First of all, God did not write the gospels.  They were written by apostles Matthew and John and by Luke and Mark, companions of apostles.  As to why the Bible requires interpretation, all books require interpretation.  You might as well ask why it contains words.  Third, you say "that two equally devout believers are capable of interpreting differently" as if that was a bad thing, but it isn't necessarily.
Ah no they weren't. That's a nice little myth that has no basis in evidence.  I don't know whether all books require intepreation. A good mystery means nothign more than a good story.  and yes, it is a bad thing if two people who profess to be Christians say that their supposed holy book means different things.  I hear from Christians that it takes the holy spirit to really "understand" the book, and those who say this have differeing ideas on what this HS has told them. Why should I think either has any kind of "truth" at all?
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However, the question of believers interpreting things differently is irrelevant to this thread and the discussion of the video.  The video takes a passage that all believers interpret the same way and misinterprets that passage.  I'm looking for someone who can explain why I should take such a video seriously, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do so.
Iit is not irrelevant to the discussion since you are the theist who wants to claim that they and they alone know what God "really" meant.  All believers may not believe in the same way but that is the base problem, why can't you all get your story straight when you all claim to have the "truth"?  I could make a video to address the claims of all stripes of Christians, tailoring it to each group who takes a particular piece as metaphor or literal and still not get an answer of why any of them should be believed. 

PS, I am interested in how you respond to Screwtape's mentioning of the bible with what JC did say about loving your enemies.  Again, where is the part that says killing them is okay?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 03:19:06 PM
No it is not relevant here. Screwtape didn't make the videos. I didn't make the videos. The person that made the videos actually has very little to do with the forum.

So you have no reason to abuse us with condescending language for something someone else did.
Thanks for letting me know.  The video itself told me that the maker would respond to comments at YouTube.  But in the comments I learned that he's decided to turn tail and run.  In his profile he says that I should visit this website for further discussion.  I came to the website and clicked on "contact" to send him an email, only to learn that he's decided not to respond to most emails either.  Instead he directs me to this forum, and now I learn he's decided not to show his head in the forum either.  I guess I shouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that he's not willing to make any defense of his video anywhere.  If I released such a lousy video, I'd probably do exactly the same thing.

However, the stated purporse of this forum is for discussion of the videos, as well as the websites, so I believe I'll continue mentioning it even if you tell me not to.
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Edit: Also, I would like to point out that this isn't a very "Christian" attitude you have.
One of the nice things about being a Christian is that I only have to seek Jesus' approval, and thus I can brush off insults from anyone else.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 10, 2010, 03:22:48 PM
Second, you want to claim that something is "straightforward" in the bible.  Again, you all do this, want to claim that it should be "obvious" that you are correct in your individual intepretation. We have another Christian here, Micah, who also claims the same thing and like you has no evidnce to back themselves up.  And to someone who wasn't familiar with the colloquialism, "raining cats and dogs" would have no "logical" meaning whatsoever. 

I have a co-worker that speaks fluent English but was born and raised in the Philippines. She would not understand "raining cats and dogs" at all.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Dante on September 10, 2010, 03:26:23 PM
Alex,

Do you have anything you want to discuss besides your dislike of said video, like, oh, I dunno, the issues that everyone has raised about your special biblical decoder ring?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 10, 2010, 03:33:45 PM
One of the nice things about being a Christian is that I only have to seek Jesus' approval, and thus I can brush off insults from anyone else.

hmmm, really?  I seem to recall, Matthew 25 which seems to indicate that one has to be nice to one's fellow humans to get Jesus' approval.  You haven't been that, with your breezing in here making baseless claims, becoming abusive when shown you are wrong, etc.  The video may not be perfect, it may assume that Christians believe in certain ways, but any way a theist believes is open for question since you cannot demonstrate that your version is any better. 

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 10, 2010, 03:38:02 PM
Thanks for letting me know.  The video itself told me that the maker would respond to comments at YouTube.  But in the comments I learned that he's decided to turn tail and run.

Lol, he probably got tired of dealing with bone-headed Christians[1]. His videos are compelling arguments, but, as I said before, there is no need for absolute perfection in the logic to show that Christianity is utter nonsense. You are simply setting an impossible goal for the proofs so that it doesn't damage your beliefs.

The Christian God is an obvious fabrication, so the proofs are good enough to show this conclusion is more likely than not. The standard for proof that your god doesn't exist is much lower than the standard for proving that your god does exist.

However, the stated purpose of this forum is for discussion of the videos, as well as the websites, so I believe I'll continue mentioning it even if you tell me not to.

I don't recall telling you that you can't discuss the videos or website. When did I do that??

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Edit: Also, I would like to point out that this isn't a very "Christian" attitude you have.
One of the nice things about being a Christian is that I only have to seek Jesus' approval, and thus I can brush off insults from anyone else.
 1. Edit: You really ought to read the mailbag sometime if you want to see the kind of crap we deal with here.

Jesus might forgive you if you insult us, but we have no such obligation.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 03:44:20 PM
But that was not what we were talking about, was it?  We were talking about whether killing people you love was consistent with what love is.  This has nothing to do with that.
Actually, that is exactly what we're talking about.  The video specifically discusses the military and warfare as its sole "evidence" on this point.  I started the thread as a discussion about the video.  If you haven't seen the video, which is the topic of the thread, then on what grounds do you go around telling me what the topic of the thread is?  The topic of the thread is the claims of the video, and your constant attempts to change the subject are as good as an admission that the video cannot be rationally defended.

Nevertheless, I'll answer your question.  There are many types of love.  In the original Greek of the New Testament, the "love your enemies" lines all use agape.  This indicates not a good, happy feeling towards people, but rather a recognition that those people are a part of creation with free will and motivations like my own.  So, if I were in the army in the American Revolution fighting the British, I might feel agape towards the British soldiers.  I'd recognize that each one is an individual, that he is not fighting because he hates me or because he's evil, but rather he fights out of a sense of patriotic duty towards his country just like I fight for mine.  Nevertheless, I might, in certain circumstances kill him.  So that answers your question about whether I could love someone and kill them.  Love between family members would be either phileo or storge, both of which mean something like "affection" or "familial love".  That is an entirely different concept, and there's no logic in your attempt to prove something about agape using an example of phileo or storge.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 03:54:30 PM
Alex,

Do you have anything you want to discuss besides your dislike of said video, like, oh, I dunno, the issues that everyone has raised about your special biblical decoder ring?
I started the thread to discuss the video and challenge people to defend what it says.  It seems we've reached a consensus that the things it says cannot be rationally defended, and I'd be happy to leave it at that.  As for magic decoder rings, I've never claimed to have one.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 10, 2010, 03:56:33 PM
I have a co-worker that speaks fluent English but was born and raised in the Philippines. She would not understand "raining cats and dogs" at all.
Nevertheless, if she heard someone say, "It's raining cats and dogs," she would probably be smart enough to know that the person isn't literally claiming that furry pets are falling from the sky.  If so, she'd have demonstrated a great deal more sense than the video maker.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 10, 2010, 04:10:21 PM
Nevertheless, if she heard someone say, "It's raining cats and dogs," she would probably be smart enough to know that the person isn't literally claiming that furry pets are falling from the sky.  If so, she'd have demonstrated a great deal more sense than the video maker.

No. In fact, she is regularly confused by these kinds of comments. I have to explain them to her, because in Tagalog they don't use language like that. She is also Christian who subscribes to a strictly literal interpretation of the KJV.

It's actually kind of funny to see her reaction when I say I'm going to run to the store and she thinks I am literally going to RUN to the store.

How does the bible deal with people that don't understand these linguistic constructs?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: General Lee on September 10, 2010, 05:58:25 PM

Nevertheless, I'll answer your question.  There are many types of love.  In the original Greek of the New Testament, the "love your enemies" lines all use agape

lol @ agape. Did you, by chance attend a Catholic school?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: William on September 10, 2010, 09:12:15 PM
Hostage drama at Agape Gap

SPOTTER: "The mark has lost concentration, his weapon is lowered away from hostage."

SNIPER: "I have a clear head-shot."

COMMANDER: "Take the shot."

SNIPER: "Oh noes, I think I love him."

COMMANDER: "Take the fucking shot - for Christ's sake!"

SNIPER: "Okay."  Kapow---crack!!

SPOTTER: "Lovely shot - brain splat!"

SNIPER: "Thanks mate - Jesus that felt good!"
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Eddy Swirl on September 10, 2010, 10:59:54 PM
I guess I shouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that he's not willing to make any defense of his video anywhere.  If I released such a lousy video, I'd probably do exactly the same thing.

It seems the maker of the video doesn't think it's that lousy, there is a delete function on YouTube afterall.

One of the nice things about being a Christian is that I only have to seek Jesus' approval, and thus I can brush off insults from anyone else.

Please, let us know when he tells you he approves, and make sure you video the event and post it on YouTube.

Edit: inserted "the event".

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 11, 2010, 12:11:22 AM
Those youtube videos have gotten...how many millions of viewings? They must be pretty damn effective to be that popular.

I wish I could release such a lousy video that it got millions of views.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: voodoo child on September 11, 2010, 12:44:24 AM

One of the nice things about being a Christian is that I only have to seek Jesus' approval,

so um, how exactly does he give approval?

and wouldn't your god just eliminate offending video, along with all the other nasty shit hes done to humans? for example, having one of his followers tell me that I will fry in hell for not paying attention to his invisibility.

 :shrug
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 11, 2010, 04:29:58 AM
The video takes a passage that all believers interpret the same way and misinterprets that passage. 

Really?  Every single believer?  Or just the True ChristiansTM that interpret it the way you do?

The question you've shied away from is exactly HOW you differentiate between metaphor and literal truth, when the subject discussed is so far away from anyone's experience. 

"...sell you possessions and give to the poor...".  Do you still have a computer?  Why? 

"...gouge your eye out and throw it away..."  Have your eyes never caused sin in your heart?  Why do you still have both your eyes?  (An assumption there on my part, I confess).

"...when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all..."  Can you drink poison?  Why not?

You wanted to discuss the video.  These are the Biblical passages mentioned in the video.

Now to me.....the second one (for example) seems quite literal.  Reading the context "better to lose a part of your body" its quite clearly a physical instruction.  Why do so many Christians have two hands and two eyes?

Additional point: Matthew 6 makes it clear that good works should not be broadcast.  If that is the case, why have I heard of Christian Aid, to take one example?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 11, 2010, 11:02:08 AM
But that was not what we were talking about, was it?  We were talking about whether killing people you love was consistent with what love is.  This has nothing to do with that.
Actually, that is exactly what we're talking about.  The video specifically discusses the military and warfare as its sole "evidence" on this point.  I started the thread as a discussion about the video.  If you haven't seen the video, which is the topic of the thread, then on what grounds do you go around telling me what the topic of the thread is? 

I wasn't telling you the topic of the thread.  It is your thread so you should know better than anyone.  But conversations don't always stay on topic.  I was telling you where I thought our conversation was.  My grounds for that was being a participant and the person who asked a question. 

The topic of the thread is the claims of the video, and your constant attempts to change the subject are as good as an admission that the video cannot be rationally defended.

I've not tried to change the subject. I've tried to address your issues. When you say something that seems to me like it is out of left field, I am going to tell you that is not what we are talking about. If you'd stop responding like such a belligerent cock this would be a much easier conversation. You know, apply some of that agape.

Nevertheless, I'll answer your question.  There are many types of love.  ...So that answers your question about whether I could love someone and kill them. 

Then I would say we have a vocabulary problem.  The English language does not communicate the meaning well enough.  The bible as written in English (any language, really) is misleading.  Agape is not love.  Love is not agape.  According to Got Questions (http://www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html):
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The Greek word agape is often translated "love" in the New Testament. How is "agape love" different from other types of love? The essence of agape love is self-sacrifice.  Unlike our English word “love,” agape is not used in the Bible to refer to romantic or sexual love. Nor does it refer to close friendship or brotherly love, for which the Greek word philia is used. Nor does agape mean charity, a term which the King James translators carried over from the Latin. Agape love is unique and is distinguished by its nature and character.

Agape is love which is of and from God, whose very nature is love itself.

Bold mine.  If you go on to read the rest of it, it uses the word "love" almost exclusively and interchangeably with the real love. It is very misleading.  It also sounds preposterous to me.  Sounds typical of woo-ists who redefine well established words to suit their needs.  Agape is not anything like love.

The last paragraph says this:
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In the same way, we are to love others sacrificially. Jesus gave the parable of the Good Samaritan as an example of sacrifice for the sake of others, even for those who may care nothing at all for us, or even hate us, as the Jews did the Samaritans. Sacrificial love is not based on a feeling, but a determined act of the will, a joyful resolve to put the welfare of others above our own.

The rest of that paragraph is a laugh-riot.  It says we fallen mortals are incapable of agape, but yhwh fills up our hearts with it when we are born again, so only true xians can feel agape.  Arrogant and naive all at once.  But tearing agape apart is not quite the topic. 

So how again is love defined as "self sacrifice" consistent with killing the other man?  It sounds to me that if jesus H felt agape the way you think it works, he would have nailed a couple other Jews and a Roman or two to the cross instead of sacrificing himself.  Your agape sounds more like Rambo-agape.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 11, 2010, 11:06:57 AM
hmmm, really?  I seem to recall, Matthew 25 which seems to indicate that one has to be nice to one's fellow humans to get Jesus' approval.  You haven't been that, with your breezing in here making baseless claims, becoming abusive when shown you are wrong, etc.  The video may not be perfect, it may assume that Christians believe in certain ways, but any way a theist believes is open for question since you cannot demonstrate that your version is any better.
Oddly enough, I seem to recall that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said: "People will hate you and tell all kinds of horrible lies about you because you have chosen to follow Me.  When they do so, you should rejoice and be glad."  So by making these videos, the maker has helped the words of Jesus to come true once again, and the same might be said for certain posts on this forum.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 11, 2010, 11:12:47 AM
Those youtube videos have gotten...how many millions of viewings? They must be pretty damn effective to be that popular.
Okay, so your logic is that if something is seen many times, then that proves something positive about how good that thing is.  So tell me then, how many copies of the Bible are out there?  6 billion is the last estimate that I've heard.  The Bible has been read a great deal more than any other book ever, and is far more popular than any video or anything else.  So by your logic, the bible is therefore the best work ever.  Of course, now that I've pointed this out, I expect that you'll soon be backtracking on your claim that something which is popular must also be effective.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 11, 2010, 11:34:51 AM
The question you've shied away from is exactly HOW you differentiate between metaphor and literal truth, when the subject discussed is so far away from anyone's experience.
I have not shied away from that question at all, but have answered it clearly in posts 26 and 30.
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"...sell you possessions and give to the poor...".  Do you still have a computer?  Why?
Funny you should ask, I'm currently typing this on a public library computer because I can't do it at home.  But I do give to the poor and I know a great many Christians who have given away a great deal and sometimes everything to others.
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"...gouge your eye out and throw it away..."  Have your eyes never caused sin in your heart?  Why do you still have both your eyes?  (An assumption there on my part, I confess).
I already answered this question in the first post of this thread, but since you apparently missed it, I'll just quote it again.  "So similarly, when Jesus said: 'If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off', he was not advising us to get a saw and cut off our hands, but rather to remove any portion of our personal attitudes or behavior that was leading us into sin."  Same for eyes.
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"...when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all..."  Can you drink poison?  Why not?
First of all, it is likely that Jesus did not say this.  The very ending of the final chapter of Mark's gospel, from verses 16:9 onward, does not appear in the earliest manuscripts of that gospel.  It is also linguistically different from the rest of the gospel in several ways.  Second, even if it is an accurate record of what Jesus said, the video carefully trims the passage in order to mislead the audience about what it's saying.  If you read the passage in its proper context, you will see that Jesus is addressing the eleven remaining disciples directly and discussing the signs that will accompany believers whom they convert in the apostolic age, not all believers for all times.  In 1 Cor 12, Paul makes clear that gifts promised to some members of the church do not necessarily apply to all.
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Now to me.....the second one (for example) seems quite literal.  Reading the context "better to lose a part of your body" its quite clearly a physical instruction.  Why do so many Christians have two hands and two eyes?
It is not "quite clearly a physical instruction" any more than "raining cats and dogs" is quite clearly describing falling housepets.  So if the erroneous interpretation seems quite clear to you, I guess it's because you're notas good at interpreting things as the audience that Jesus was addressing.

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Additional point: Matthew 6 makes it clear that good works should not be broadcast.  If that is the case, why have I heard of Christian Aid, to take one example?
One should not brag about doing charitable deeds, but nonetheless most charities need a level of publicity in order to function effectively by bringing in funds and volunteers and making themselves known to those who need aid.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: CutePuppy on September 11, 2010, 11:38:24 AM
Those youtube videos have gotten...how many millions of viewings? They must be pretty damn effective to be that popular.
Okay, so your logic is that if something is seen many times, then that proves something positive about how good that thing is.  So tell me then, how many copies of the Bible are out there?  6 billion is the last estimate that I've heard.  The Bible has been read a great deal more than any other book ever, and is far more popular than any video or anything else.  So by your logic, the bible is therefore the best work ever.

No, that's not "his logic". "His logic" is that something that has a lot of viewings/attention is effective in achieving the purpose the viewed subject set out to do. I don't think that's necessarily accurate, but I guess that depends on what one thinks the objective of the popular item (in this case the video) is. If the objective, which I think it is, is to convert Christians to atheists, then I'm not entirely sure if it's effective despite its popularity/many viewings. If the objective is to get people to think about how Christians aren't always what they seem, then perhaps it is effective? We can't really tell without more data. If the objective is simply to draw attention or get people to discuss the topic, then perhaps that video is very effective? But I digress..

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Of course, now that I've pointed this out, I expect that you'll soon be backtracking on your claim that something which is popular must also be effective.

Why would he do that? The bible was and still is effective at spreading Christianity, right? That doesn't mean that Christianity is true, of course (appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy and all that). So why would he feel the need to backtrack it? You've strengthened his point (that I didn't think was that strong to begin with). Worse, you've misinterpreted his statement. Which is ironic, considering the topic.

PS. Sorry about the many edits.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 11, 2010, 11:41:36 AM
Bold mine.  If you go on to read the rest of it, it uses the word "love" almost exclusively and interchangeably with the real love. It is very misleading.  It also sounds preposterous to me.  Sounds typical of woo-ists who redefine well established words to suit their needs.  Agape is not anything like love.
So wait a minute, giving precise and clear definitions makes this webpage "misleading"?  I actually think that the page you linked to is very clear and lucid.  As for whether agape is love, the naswer is yes.  Just look up "love" in a good English dictionary and you'll see several definitions, one of which is pretty close to the definition that you're unhappy with.  What's your complaint?

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So how again is love defined as "self sacrifice" consistent with killing the other man?  It sounds to me that if jesus H felt agape the way you think it works, he would have nailed a couple other Jews and a Roman or two to the cross instead of sacrificing himself.  Your agape sounds more like Rambo-agape.
The life of a soldier reuiqres great self-sacrifice.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: CutePuppy on September 11, 2010, 01:29:48 PM
I don't want to keep editing that post, so I'm going to start a new one.

The question you've shied away from is exactly HOW you differentiate between metaphor and literal truth, when the subject discussed is so far away from anyone's experience.
I have not shied away from that question at all, but have answered it clearly in posts 26 and 30.

You did, but I think we need something a little bit more descriptive (and objective) than:

2) When two Christians differ on their interpretations, how do you determine who (if either) has it right?
The same way I would approach any disagreemnt: by looking at the arguments presented by each side, evaluating those arguments, studying the relevant background information, and applying logic.

And there's the rub, as has been pointed out.  You may want to consider these questions....

1) How do you know how to correctly interpret Jesus' words?
I don't claim to have a completely correct understanding of everything Jesus said, but some examples, including the relevant ones from this video, are quite straightforward and I interpret them as I'd interpret everything else.  Every day I have scores of conversations, read several books or articles, watch TV, and listen to the radio.  As I do so I encounter figurative language all the time and I interpret it using common sense.

Your "common sense" may not be "common sense" to others. After all, you acknowledge that there are other Christians who interpret things differently than you do. And my "logic" and "common sense" tells me that the bible is nothing but a bunch of fictional tales created by ignorant people. Does stating just that satisfy you? If it doesn't, why should anything you state here satisfy us? Nothing you've said here is constructive to answer the question HOW to interpret the bible correctly.

Quote
Assuming that you're a defender of the video, the question can be turned around.  The video's entire case is based on the assumption that Jesus meant each of the quoted phrases to be taken literally, and based on this claims that Jesus was "crazy" and "insane".  Lose that ridiculous interpretation of Jesus' words and the whole video falls apart and looks rather pathetic.  So how exactly do you, on behalf of the video maker, know how to correctly interpret Jesus' words?

Surely, the burden of proof is not on us to show that when someone says "cut off your hand" he doesn't mean "cut off your hand", but he means "deal with your inner demons without actually cutting off your hand, sinner!"? Or any of the other dozens if not hundreds if not thousands of interpretations one can think of when they apply their "common sense" or whatever? Where is your evidence that this particular interpretation is "ridiculous" and that your interpretation is the correct one?

Was the great flood, practically genocide, a metaphor? Or do you really believe that god literally drowned/killed nearly every single human being because they became "wicked" and didn't appreciate your/their god? Is hell, where non believers suffer for eternity for the severe crime of not believing in this particular god, a metaphor? "Cutting off your hand" from a book with such similar atrocities in it doesn't sound that far fetched to me, actually.

I'm looking for someone who can explain why I should take such a video seriously, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do so.

You don't have to take this video seriously. Just like you don't take some/many of the other interpretations/denominations of Christianity seriously. And, unfortunately, much like how you can't explain to us why we should take your interpretation or even Christianity itself seriously. But you just do (take one specific interpretation and just run with it), so why can't the creator of the video take one interpretation and run with it as well?

Are Christians generally taught to preempt every talk with religious aspects with "First things first: I just want to say that I am of x denomination and I don't interpret the bible the same way you do. In fact, I think that some of the things you believe about god and Jesus are at best inaccurate and at worst ridiculous. So whenever I refer to Christians, Christianity, God and Jesus, I usually mean my interpretation of them, not yours, which I don't acknowledge as correct"? If they don't, why do you expect the creator of this video to do so? Especially when the burden of proof is on you? And you've failed to provide any kind of evidence to show that your interpretation is accurate?

Oh, and welcome to the forum :) It's high time we have some fresh blood spilled around here!*

*Metaphorically, of course!
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: jetson on September 11, 2010, 01:37:16 PM
What about when he said "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (Luke 12:33)
Telling people to sell their possessions and give to the poor sounds like excellent advice to me.  Christians all over the world follow this advice all the time.

So after running it through the magic decoder ring, Luke 12:33 says "Sell some of your possessions, you know, the crap you were not really using anyway, spend most of it on more frivolous crap, but if it's not too inconvenient, give to the capital campaign to build a new wing on our mega-chuch with a coffee shop and recreation center, support ultra-conservative politicians in their defense of big corporations, and if there is any left over, put it in this box and we'll pretend to use it to build an orphanage in Guatemala."


Too big for a sig, but seriously a classic!
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Eddy Swirl on September 11, 2010, 05:50:33 PM
Oddly enough, I seem to recall that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said: "People will hate you and tell all kinds of horrible lies about you because you have chosen to follow Me.

How convenient. It reminds me of "If you don't eat your brussel sprouts, the monster under the bed will bight your toes off!" It's just a way to keep the followers in line, and to "program" the followers to ignore the horrible (rational) lies (truth) that people might want to share with them.

The monster under the bed is real by the way.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 11, 2010, 07:03:19 PM
Bold mine.  If you go on to read the rest of it, it uses the word "love" almost exclusively and interchangeably with the real love. It is very misleading.  It also sounds preposterous to me.  Sounds typical of woo-ists who redefine well established words to suit their needs.  Agape is not anything like love.
So wait a minute, giving precise and clear definitions makes this webpage "misleading"? 

I am either doing a terrible job expressing my meaning or you are typing before thinking about what I wrote. 

It was not precise or clear. The first thing it said was agape is not love like we know love.  It is not romantic love, it is not brotherly love, it is not familial love, it is not the kind of love you have for your cat or for your car.  It is not good will or charitable feelings.  It says, "Agape love is unique and is distinguished by its nature and character."  Which tells me nothing other than it is not love in any way I can relate to.

In fact, it explicitly says it is not love that naturally occurs in any human being.
Quote
But this type of love does not come naturally to humans.

So agape does not equal love.  Agape is something else, some other emotion that we do not actually have a word for, except "agape". Yet it goes on to use the two words interchangeably throughout the article.  It is like saying I have this fruit that I will call an "orange" but there is nothing orange-like about it.  It is not orange in color, it contains no citric acid, and it is not technically a fruit (but it is a food, I think).  And it is shaped like a tetrahedron.  But I'll still refer to it as an orange anyway. 

My point was not aimed at you so much as it was the sneaky way "love" was substituted in where "agape" should have been used.  It was a rhetorical sleight of hand and I dislike it.

I actually think that the page you linked to is very clear and lucid.  As for whether agape is love, the naswer is yes.  Just look up "love" in a good English dictionary and you'll see several definitions, one of which is pretty close to the definition that you're unhappy with.  What's your complaint?

The complaint is the essay - which you agree with - went through great pains to explain how agape is not love and yet the article - and you - then use the two terms interchangeably.

Quote
So how again is love defined as "self sacrifice" consistent with killing the other man?  It sounds to me that if jesus H felt agape the way you think it works, he would have nailed a couple other Jews and a Roman or two to the cross instead of sacrificing himself.  Your agape sounds more like Rambo-agape.
The life of a soldier reuiqres great self-sacrifice.

Now you're not even trying. 

If you agape[1] a person, friend or foe, my interpretation of the sacrificial nature of it would be sacrifice for that person.  That is what self sacrifice is, right?  If jesus H agaped mankind, then his sacrifice was for the benefit of mankind.  Similarly, while military service can be self-sacrificial, I would say that sacrifice is generally only for the benefit of the soldier's own side. How is it your sacrifice if you are killing the other guy?


 1. using "agape" as a verb in the same way you would use "love" as a verb.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 11, 2010, 11:30:28 PM
Those youtube videos have gotten...how many millions of viewings? They must be pretty damn effective to be that popular.
Of course, now that I've pointed this out, I expect that you'll soon be backtracking on your claim that something which is popular must also be effective.

Nah, Bible has gotten a huge head start and billions of dollars behind it. It HAS been effective, unfortunately. My point is that the logic must not be nearly as flawed as you are claiming, or it would most likely be ignored along with thousands of other anti-Christian videos.

You are claiming that the logic in the videos is totally ridiculous, but the video stats indicate otherwise.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: pingnak on September 11, 2010, 11:46:52 PM
I'd like to take a moment ant point out that the earlier image of 'Touchdown Jesus' was struck by lightning and burned down to its frame, much to the delight of most of its neighbors, who thought it was tacky.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGTBFPte-MY[/youtube]

It was composed of plaster coated styrofoam on a steel frame.  Ironically it belonged to the 'Solid Rock Church', but I guess a less flammable solid-rock Jesus would have been too expensive, as apparently was properly grounding it.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Eddy Swirl on September 12, 2010, 12:08:45 AM
^^^ haha irony x3
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 12, 2010, 01:02:34 AM
The question you've "...gouge your eye out and throw it away..."  Have your eyes never caused sin in your heart?  Why do you still have both your eyes?  (An assumption there on my part, I confess).
I already answered this question in the first post of this thread, but since you apparently missed it, I'll just quote it again.  "So similarly, when Jesus said: 'If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off', he was not advising us to get a saw and cut off our hands, but rather to remove any portion of our personal attitudes or behavior that was leading us into sin."  Same for eyes.

Really?  So "it is profitable for the that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (repeated twice) is also methaphor (my bold)?

Sorry, but there is nothing methaphorical about those lines, much as you may want them to be.  But perhaps you could explain exactly why you believe your interpretation is correct?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 12, 2010, 01:10:51 AM
AlexBP,

If the videos are so easily dismissed, why do you even bother coming here to attack them? What's the point, if the logic is so obviously flawed, as you would have us believe? If you are so confident in your reasoning then I don't see why you wouldn't just ignore them. There must have been something compelling enough about them to inspire you to come here and talk down to us.

All these proofs have to do is show that Christianity does not hold up under any kind of scrutiny. That it doesn't match the reality we inhabit. It doesn't take much effort to see that. Even if you don't subscribe to a literal interpretation of the bible, by being a Christian means you still have to accept things that are plainly absurd and obviously incongruent with reality.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Epiphany84 on September 12, 2010, 02:16:07 AM
This subject played a big part in my letting go of the fairytale.  I ahd lengthy conversations with christians (while a christian) about all of things things they did that went against God's teaching.  It's so funny how many interpretations i began to hear of what the bible said about various topics.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 12, 2010, 09:16:52 AM
This subject played a big part in my letting go of the fairytale.  I ahd lengthy conversations with christians (while a christian) about all of things things they did that went against God's teaching.  It's so funny how many interpretations i began to hear of what the bible said about various topics.

Welcome, Epiphany.  Very good observation.  Once upon a time we had a member here who was a former theologian.  His screen name was DTE.  He was a devastating opponent for xians to deal with because of the depth and breadth of his religious knowledge.  When he first came he introduced a concept he called Self Projection As God - or SPAG for short. He introduced it in this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4868.0), but it was already a well developed idea in his head.  Notice, an hour and ten minutes later he makes this challenge (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4871.0) and shows 3 xians at the same time just where their SPAG is. Do check out his posts in the old forum if you get a chance.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: hickdive on September 12, 2010, 02:35:16 PM

The question you've shied away from is exactly HOW you differentiate between metaphor and literal truth, when the subject discussed is so far away from anyone's experience.

I have not shied away from that question at all, but have answered it clearly in posts 26 and 30.

I'm sorry, either you've subsequently edited your answer out of posts #26 and #30 or there's something preventing my PC from seeing what you posted because, as far as I can tell, neither of those posts actually answer the question.

So, to repeat it and give you the opportunity to repost the answer you gave;

How, precisely, does anyone determine which elements of the bible are literally true and which are metaphorical?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 12, 2010, 05:16:37 PM
I'm reading the challenge now, screwtape, thanks for that. VERY interesting... AlexBP ought to read it as well. Maybe it would help him understand why the logic of the site truely is effective at refuting Christianity.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: CutePuppy on September 12, 2010, 05:45:49 PM
The old forum was before my time (here), but whatever happened to this DTE person anyway? Is he oke? Is there a specific reason he's not a (frequent?) poster now?

I think I'm going to spend some time reading his posts in the old forum. I have the feeling I lack the background knowledge to really understand what he's saying though. Still, another opportunity to learn, I guess. Thanks for the links.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 12, 2010, 06:13:13 PM
The old forum was before my time (here), but whatever happened to this DTE person anyway? Is he oke? Is there a specific reason he's not a (frequent?) poster now?

I cannot speak for him.  My understanding is he came to feel this was a waste of time. Too often he would have a xian dead to rights defeated and saw them perform all manner of mental gymnastic and startling denial to avoid facing the truth.  I believe he wanted to actually do something to make the world more secular and he realized this site was, for him, an impediment.  Read his posts from the current forum and ATT and I think you will get a better feeling for it.

He had a blog for a while, but last I checked it had tumbleweeds blowing through it.  I do not have the link on hand, but I will try to find it.

I think I'm going to spend some time reading his posts in the old forum. I have the feeling I lack the background knowledge to really understand what he's saying though. Still, another opportunity to learn, I guess. Thanks for the links.

He was on a different level than most of us.  I can only think of maybe 3 people here who come close.  As I said, he was a theologian as a career for a while.

Here is my incomplete list of DTE's Greatest hits.  Some of them are at ATT, others are in the old forum.  For DTE, you really have to follow the thread.  Most of his best work was done over the course of a conversation.  You can spend a lot of time reading his material, but I think it is worth it.

DTE’s intro and first mention of spag  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4868.0

DTE – Typology of xians – 3 kinds of SPAG http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=6677.0

DTE – open challenge to xians – displays the SPAGs of 3 xians.  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4871.0

DTE on ATT.  Xians cannot be allowed to give up noah, jonah etc. http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=435.msg6320#msg6320

DTE on ATT.  “It is written”.  About how jesus & satan take the OT literally as written and do not argue interpretation. http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=436.msg6322#msg6322

DTE on ATT Jesus’ slaves. http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=456.msg6749#msg6749

DTE on ATT  xian typology and a brief idea on how to deconvert. http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=774.msg12614#msg12614



Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: HAL on September 12, 2010, 06:20:25 PM

He had a blog for a while, but last I checked it had tumbleweeds blowing through it.  I do not have the link on hand, but I will try to find it.

It's been deleted -

http://avangelism.com/

He had a twitter account too but the last post on it is Apr 12th -

http://twitter.com/avangelism
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 12, 2010, 06:27:53 PM
Thank you, HAL.  That was exactly what I was looking for.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 13, 2010, 09:32:56 AM
hmmm, really?  I seem to recall, Matthew 25 which seems to indicate that one has to be nice to one's fellow humans to get Jesus' approval.  You haven't been that, with your breezing in here making baseless claims, becoming abusive when shown you are wrong, etc.  The video may not be perfect, it may assume that Christians believe in certain ways, but any way a theist believes is open for question since you cannot demonstrate that your version is any better.
Oddly enough, I seem to recall that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said: "People will hate you and tell all kinds of horrible lies about you because you have chosen to follow Me.  When they do so, you should rejoice and be glad."  So by making these videos, the maker has helped the words of Jesus to come true once again, and the same might be said for certain posts on this forum.

Yes, indeed it does say that: 
Quote
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
  Unfortunately, no one has been telling lies about you here.  What we have been doing is asking you to prove your claims.  That always seems to offend theists like you and I suspect it is that you think you have some special knowledge and are above such inquiry. 

And no, the maker of these videos does not help you get your jollies by claiming youself a martyr.  It seems that so many Christians are desperate to hang on to the masochism of their religion but not actually put any work behind it.  Honestly, if you are so desperate for any little shred of evidence for your myths, one would hope it would be more than claiming that anyone questioning you was proof that you were right, especially when you have nothing else to support your supposed "faith". 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 13, 2010, 10:17:50 AM
@AlexBP

I never got a response to this post:

When the bible says Jesus fed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and fish... is that meant to be taken as metaphor? How should I interpret this?

The bible claims Jesus fed 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish (Matthew 14:13–21, Mark 6:31-44, Luke 9:10-17 and John 6:5-15) and also 4000 people with 7 loaves of bread and 7 fish (Mark 8:1-9 and Matthew 15:32-39).

So tell me. Is this literal or metaphorical and explain why, please.


Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 13, 2010, 03:52:18 PM
Really?  So "it is profitable for the that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (repeated twice) is also methaphor (my bold)?

Sorry, but there is nothing methaphorical about those lines, much as you may want them to be.
You seem to think that since this line mentions physical things, it's not a metaphor.  But virtually every metaphor mentions physical things.  "Raining cats and dogs" mentions physical things.  "Tiger, tiger, burning bright" mentions physical things.  Or consider this excerpt from Andrew Marvell:

Now let us sport us while we may;
And now, like am'rous birds of prey,
Rather at once our time devour,
Than languish in his slow-chapp'd power.
Let us roll all our strength, and all
Our sweetness, up into one ball;
And tear our pleasures with rough strife
Thorough the iron gates of life.

That mentions quite a number of physical things.  Does it follow that there's nothing metaphorical about it, or are you willing to admit that sometimes physical objects can be used metaphorically?
Quote
But perhaps you could explain exactly why you believe your interpretation is correct?
Sure.  The metaphorical interpretation must be correct because the literal interpretation makes no sense.  "If your right hand causes you to sin..." can't mean anything literally because rights hands never cause anyone to sin.  Sin can only be a conscious decision made in the mind, not in the right hand.  Further, that line doubles as a joke about a certain activity that some people do with their right hand, and jokes are not meant to be taken literally.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 13, 2010, 05:03:28 PM
AlexBP,

I mentioned people whose language and culture doesn't support the use of metaphor and who don't understand their useage. What does the bible do about them?

How about people that simply don't have the intelligence to understand them? They have to track you down to get the decoded version from you?

What if they don't have access to someone that doesn't believe the bible is 100% word-for-word literal truth?

I guess they are just doomed. Either they are worshiping a false religion created by a misinterpretation of the bible or they will reject the bible as pure fantasy.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: HAL on September 13, 2010, 05:17:44 PM
The metaphorical interpretation must be correct because the literal interpretation makes no sense. 

Wow.

So anything in the Bible that literally makes no sense must have another true meaning?

Take this then -
Quote
Genesis 2

But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

The bolded part literally makes no sense (women do not come from from men's ribs) , so what is the real meaning of it?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Ambassador Pony on September 13, 2010, 05:37:05 PM
Good catch, Hal.

Unreal. Simply astonishing.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: HAL on September 13, 2010, 05:40:30 PM
Good catch, Hal.

Unreal. Simply astonishing.

Thanks. It is really astonishing.

"If your right hand causes you to sin..." can't mean anything literally because rights hands never cause anyone to sin. 

Alex,

If a god can make a woman from a rib, why can't a right hand cause a person to sin?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 13, 2010, 07:12:06 PM
I regard this whole "metaphor" excuse as tacit admission that the bible is almost entirely nothing like reality. And the few pieces that are like reality are completely unremarkable. They know the bible isn't reflective of reality, so they think treating it as figurative is going to fix that, but that creates new problems.

When you reduce all of these wild stories to metaphor it has a way of reducing God to impotence. If you take away all the special powers of the prophets of the bible then God no longer looks like the all-powerful deity any more. Nobody wants to worship an impotent God.

Alex, what metaphors are there in 2 Kings 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Kings+2&version=NIV) that I might be misreading? It looks to me as if it is all intended to be taken as a historical account, but maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: CutePuppy on September 13, 2010, 07:32:19 PM
Quote
But perhaps you could explain exactly why you believe your interpretation is correct?
Sure.  The metaphorical interpretation must be correct because the literal interpretation makes no sense.

This sounds reasonable. Although literal interpretations often do make sense and they can still be considered metaphorical.

For example:
Quote
Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

I'm guessing you see this not as a literal command, but a metaphorical one? In this case, how can you tell? And what's your take on law enforcement and how do you think this passage contributes to it (or not)?

Quote
Sin can only be a conscious decision made in the mind, not in the right hand.

Nutty! I mean, not necessarily:

Quote
Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Lusting after women is not, by default, characterized as a conscious decision. I blame this on the evolution of our gonads that produce testosterone and estradiol. In this case, the (biggest/ most significant) cause of our lusting (after people) is literally our gonads. And I feel both dirty and happy stating this probably indisputable fact.

Quote
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Plenty of people who do not worship your god, simply because they don't know your god, not because they consciously decided not to follow it.

And conscious decisions don't come falling out of the sky: they themselves are obviously based on/ caused by something. So what if your conscious decision is actually based on how good something feels in your hand? Like, literally? For example, if you like the physical contact of a breast? And based on that feeling, you consciously decide to sin? Is your hand (and its touch receptors, I guess) then not a cause of you sinning? Can your hand then not cause you to sin, literally? I don't see how you can't take it literally like this, but feel free to explain?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: William on September 13, 2010, 08:14:25 PM
Sure.  The metaphorical interpretation must be correct because the literal interpretation makes no sense.

So how do we deal with this one?:

Quote
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (King James Version)

 18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.



Was it always a metaphor, or a law at one time that morphed into a metaphor?  :shrug

HINT HINT: Perhaps this bit of Deuteronomy is neither a jot nor a tittle  ;)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 13, 2010, 09:57:22 PM

For example:
Quote
Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

I'm guessing you see this not as a literal command, but a metaphorical one? In this case, how can you tell? And what's your take on law enforcement and how do you think this passage contributes to it (or not)?

That would fit with Alex's belligerent version of agape.  You may "love" your enemy, but if he hits you, do not actually turn your other cheek.  That is just a a metaphor that means "kill him". 



Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 14, 2010, 04:05:28 AM
Really?  So "it is profitable for the that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (repeated twice) is also methaphor (my bold)?

Sorry, but there is nothing methaphorical about those lines, much as you may want them to be.
You seem to think that since this line mentions physical things, it's not a metaphor.  But virtually every metaphor mentions physical things.  "Raining cats and dogs" mentions physical things.....That mentions quite a number of physical things.  Does it follow that there's nothing metaphorical about it, or are you willing to admit that sometimes physical objects can be used metaphorically?

Not at all - indeed, most metaphors do just that.  But what I was asking is how one tells when something physical should be intended literally or not - hence the second question:

But perhaps you could explain exactly why you believe your interpretation is correct?
Sure.  The metaphorical interpretation must be correct because the literal interpretation makes no sense.  "If your right hand causes you to sin..." can't mean anything literally because rights hands never cause anyone to sin.  Sin can only be a conscious decision made in the mind, not in the right hand.  Further, that line doubles as a joke about a certain activity that some people do with their right hand, and jokes are not meant to be taken literally.

You've been given an example that shows how a hand could indeed cause one to sin.  But looking at the "joke"....what of someone who does indeed spill his seed and feels they can't help themselves.  Would not literally cutting off their hand make perfect sense, in light of the "better to enter heaven incomplete"?

I'll quote it again, since you have conveniently ignored the quote in order for the passage to fit your preconceptions:

""it is profitable for the that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (repeated twice).  If nothing is physically being cut off, what is the point of this line - specifically?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 14, 2010, 05:33:35 AM
@AlexBP

Waiting for a response to my post #75.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 14, 2010, 09:48:07 PM
Here's my opinion in response to the thread question.

Maybe the bible was not written by Jesus, but by his disciples. His disciples were humans after all. Maybe they misinterpreted the teachings of Jesus? That explains why the bible contains advocacy of slavery, sexism, and what not. Since it is not written by God himself, that's why the bible should be used as a guide. You should exercise common sense too. Hence the christians are not really disobeying Jesus per se.

I do not believe in God at all, its just that yesterday I was explaining the fact that the bible is repulsive to my mom. And that was the response she gave me. So how do I counter that?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 14, 2010, 10:09:02 PM
His disciples were humans after all. Maybe they misinterpreted the teachings of Jesus? That explains why the bible contains advocacy of slavery, sexism, and what not. Since it is not written by God himself, that's why the bible should be used as a guide. You should exercise common sense too. Hence the christians are not really disobeying Jesus per se.

If the bible has been "tainted" by erroneous human transcription then what good is it? How do we know which parts are actually god's words and which are man's screw-ups? How do we know who has enough "common sense" to extract the correct interpretation of the bible without dragging along some man-made garbage?

If god can't protect his primary communications mechanism--the bible--from being tainted and twisted into utter absurdity, then why does this god deserve worship? Such a god would be an utter failure.

That's how I would respond.

Edit: If the bible has been fouled by humanity then it's useless as a guide.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 14, 2010, 10:29:24 PM
Honestly, the bible is such a crazy mess... If that was god's plan for informing humanity of his existence and what he has in mind for us then he really needs to rethink that and come up with something a lot better because it's pretty much worthless. I mean, is that really the best the all-powerful creator of the universe can do??

If I were god and that was my best effort then I'd be ashamed of myself. I think I'd cause another world-wide flood just to wipe out any witnesses to my massive fuck up. Actually, I'd just dissolve the entire planet and start all over from scratch just to be sure Humanity v2.0  didn't find any stray copies of the bible or the Qu'ran or anything else that might give them crazy ideas.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Narrow Mullen on September 14, 2010, 11:28:22 PM
A question a couple people have been waiting for;

How do you determine what is literal, and what is a metaphor.

You said previously that you just used your logic. But that is YOUR logic. Different people interpret the passages differently. That's why there's thousands of sects of Christianity. Are you implying that, out of the 2 billionish Christians in the world, you know God's holy book better than all of them? After all, you seem to be able to confidently pick out passages that are for sure metaphors, and ones that are definitely literal.

What makes your logic better than everyone elses? What if your logic is flawed, and Jesus really did want you to cut off a hand?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 15, 2010, 11:32:59 AM
Here's my opinion in response to the thread question.

Maybe the bible was not written by Jesus, but by his disciples. His disciples were humans after all. Maybe they misinterpreted the teachings of Jesus? That explains why the bible contains advocacy of slavery, sexism, and what not. Since it is not written by God himself, that's why the bible should be used as a guide. You should exercise common sense too. Hence the christians are not really disobeying Jesus per se.

I do not believe in God at all, its just that yesterday I was explaining the fact that the bible is repulsive to my mom. And that was the response she gave me. So how do I counter that?

I'm guessing that your mom is sure that *she* knows what Jesus/God really meant. Ask her how.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: hickdive on September 15, 2010, 12:17:31 PM
The metaphorical interpretation must be correct because the literal interpretation makes no sense.

You do realise the implications of this when applied to, say, jesus rising from the dead?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 15, 2010, 07:16:17 PM
Honestly, the bible is such a crazy mess... If that was god's plan for informing humanity of his existence and what he has in mind for us then he really needs to rethink that and come up with something a lot better because it's pretty much worthless. I mean, is that really the best the all-powerful creator of the universe can do??

Maybe God doesn't want to spoon feed us? He wants us to find out for ourselves? It's like your lecturer asking you to read up and do your own research. You don't see him explaining every little detail, do you? He expects you to be independent.

Let me sidetrack a bit. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh? After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: blue on September 15, 2010, 07:27:15 PM
. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh? After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?

You've answered your own question here. Since there is no afterlife, why would you want to screw up the one life you have? You commit heinous crimes your community will deal with you. You don't get the out of asking for forgiveness for every little act you commit.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: CutePuppy on September 15, 2010, 07:35:46 PM
Honestly, the bible is such a crazy mess... If that was god's plan for informing humanity of his existence and what he has in mind for us then he really needs to rethink that and come up with something a lot better because it's pretty much worthless. I mean, is that really the best the all-powerful creator of the universe can do??

Maybe God doesn't want to spoon feed us? He wants us to find out for ourselves? It's like your lecturer asking you to read up and do your own research. You don't see him explaining every little detail, do you? He expects you to be independent.

It seems that research was and still is being done and we found out how the miracles in the bible are utterly baseless. Oops.

Quote
Let me sidetrack a bit. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh? After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?

Okay:
1. If the reason you are not doing these things is because you fear hell or want to go to heaven, maybe you should reevaluate your character a little bit.
1a. I am so happy to know that you are religious.
1b. Hint: don't use this line of reasoning among your smarter friends: they might not want to be friends with you any longer after you've revealed what you really feel on this issue to them.
2. Hearing you say this makes me feel that much better being an atheist and having no desire to harm people. Imagine that? (No, really, imagine it. Think about it...hard).

P.S. I also like how you undermine your first point about being "independent" and "finding things out for yourself" by advocating that people should just throw themselves at your god's mercy like good little sheep, doing whatever he asks without questioning the logic of it only because you fear his punishment. Good job.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 15, 2010, 09:41:39 PM
Maybe God doesn't want to spoon feed us? He wants us to find out for ourselves? It's like your lecturer asking you to read up and do your own research. You don't see him explaining every little detail, do you? He expects you to be independent.

Unfortunately, that doesn't fix it. First, he doesn't have to explain every detail in order for it to be an effective communications tool. The minimum standard, IMO, is that it make some kind of sense, be coherent, accessible and, most importantly, be believable by all of humanity. The bible fails on all counts. These should be easy goals for an all powerful god to achieve.

And you don't even have to get into the interpretation problems to see the failings of the bible as an effective communications medium. The vast majority of humanity has been completely illiterate. You can't do much interpreting if you can't even read the damn thing. Not to mention the fact that the bible didn't enjoy wide distribution until the invention of modern printing presses and distribution channels. You can't do much interpreting if you've never even SEEN a bible before. How many Pre-Columbian native Americans had access to the bible? Maybe they did, but I've never seen any convincing evidence of it.

And how are people with reading comprehension disabilities supposed to research and interpret the bible? How about people with visual impairment and no access to a braille copy? Braille wasn't even invented until 1821. And how long after that before the bible was widely available in braille?

I can't possibly conclude that the bible is the work of a supreme deity.

Let me sidetrack a bit. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh?

You still have to obey the laws of society.

After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?

What makes you think we have no conscience? You can have a conscience without god. I don't worry about heaven or hell, but that doesn't mean I act like a barbarian.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 16, 2010, 02:12:14 AM
Let me sidetrack a bit. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh? After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?

That's exactly why a "good" atheist is better than a "good" believer.  An atheist who does good (even when its hard) does it because its good.  A believer who does good does it - at least in part - knowing there is reward or punishment to come.

But it IS a fair question - with no external morality, why should any person not simply satisfy their own whims?  The answer for me is because this is the one life we all get - not just me, but you, and everyone.  If I agree it is ok to hurt others to please myself, then I have to also admit that it is okay for others to hurt me to please themselves. 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 16, 2010, 07:55:31 AM
Let me sidetrack a bit. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh? After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?

Classic!

1) Morality is not dependent on the existence of a god, much less the christian god of the bible. Hence, atheists have morals (shock and awe!)

In fact, many social animals have developed morality  (i.e. Wolves and Chimpanzees) and they have not even concieved of a deity.

2) There are consequences in this life to the actions we take.
i.e. I murder someone, I get jailed for the rest of my life.

That's why we have laws and law enforcement. Duh!  &)

3) There are proportionally less atheists in prison than in the general population (in the U.S.) The vast majority of the U.S. prison population is .... wait for it ... you guess it! Christian!

Their beliefs don't seem to stop them from committing crimes.

I'm sorry but when I hear the same dumb theist argument for the millionth time and I refute it again and again and again... it gets ridiculous.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 16, 2010, 09:22:32 AM
Let me sidetrack a bit. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh? After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?

Parallel, you are also talking as if the afterlife, should it exist, is somehow seperate from this earthly life.  And yet, your point is both that there in that afterlife we experience consequences from our past actions, and also that there must be a continuity of consciousness between the earthly life and the afterlife.#

With that in mind, can you please explain the difference between me NOW, me twenty years later (alive), and me 20 years later (dead)?  In both cases there are consequences, in both cases I (presume) I have continuity of consciousness.  So where is the difference?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: lotanddaughters on September 16, 2010, 09:30:47 PM
Hence when William Blake wrote:

Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night.


He did not actually mean us to infer that there was a tiger on fire in a nighttime forest; rather, the "burning" is a metaphor for the tiger's ferocity.

That's why poetry lovers love poetry. The poet's aim is to be artistic and colorful. Each reader gets his/her own unique feeling(and sometimes own unique message) from reading the exact same line of poetry.

Our books of law in today's modern society have absolutely no room for bullshit like "Tiger, tiger burning bright". We want to make certain that people know exactly what is legal and what is not. Our laws are written very clearly. We are just fallable humans creating these laws, and different people can read them and almost always end up with the same interpretation. If the Creator of the universe truly wrote a book of morals of the utmost life/death/salvation importance, NOBODY would misinterpret "His Word". Whatever you think the Bible says, believe me, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians and Jews who think different
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 16, 2010, 11:20:04 PM
...If the Creator of the universe truly wrote a book of morals of the utmost life/death/salvation importance, NOBODY would misinterpret "His Word". Whatever you think the Bible says, believe me, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians and Jews who think different.  

Indeed. I mean, it isn't any small thing we are talking about here. In the case of the bible, if you misinterpret it, you could end up in hell for eternity. God screwing around with us and then condemning us to eternal damnation for getting it wrong... I mean, if that really is the hand we've been dealt by this being, then I want nothing to do with it. If that is the way it is, then humanity should be spending more effort trying to avoid or destroy this being, because it is pure evil.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 17, 2010, 02:43:06 AM
Quote
2) There are consequences in this life to the actions we take.
i.e. I murder someone, I get jailed for the rest of my life.

That's why we have laws and law enforcement. Duh!

Not really true. Lets say someone murders a guy. He can frame an innocent guy to take the fall for him. He can also hire an excellent lawyer. He can use the insanity excuse. He can also go on the run. There are still many dangerous criminals who have not been caught after so many years. There are also bribery and corruption involved. OJ simpson was proved innocent, wasn't he?

The point that I am trying to make is that the law is not perfect. It's made by humans after all. So much so that even if someone commits murder, he still can get away scot-free.

Quote
But it IS a fair question - with no external morality, why should any person not simply satisfy their own whims?  The answer for me is because this is the one life we all get - not just me, but you, and everyone.  If I agree it is ok to hurt others to please myself, then I have to also admit that it is okay for others to hurt me to please themselves.

Who are we to say that we have to be good to others? The global world human population is billions. Do you expect every single of us to be good? It just doesn't work that way. Look at the animal kingdom. Why can't lions and deers live in harmony? Same for birds and worms, cats and mice. Lions even engage in infanticide, that is they kill cubs from rival prides. Some animals even eat their young. In fact, we are actually mammals.

Quote
What makes you think we have no conscience? You can have a conscience without god. I don't worry about heaven or hell, but that doesn't mean I act like a barbarian.

That's what I infer from Moderator_020's post in another thread. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=10109.30
Post #57

He/she said that "A dualistic approach to consciousness is an illusion."
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 17, 2010, 05:02:38 AM
Quote
But it IS a fair question - with no external morality, why should any person not simply satisfy their own whims?  The answer for me is because this is the one life we all get - not just me, but you, and everyone.  If I agree it is ok to hurt others to please myself, then I have to also admit that it is okay for others to hurt me to please themselves.

Who are we to say that we have to be good to others? The global world human population is billions. Do you expect every single of us to be good? It just doesn't work that way. Look at the animal kingdom. Why can't lions and deers live in harmony? Same for birds and worms, cats and mice. Lions even engage in infanticide, that is they kill cubs from rival prides. Some animals even eat their young. In fact, we are actually mammals.

Parellel, simple yes/no question for you. 

Are you good because for the potential reward, or for fear of the punishment if you are not?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 17, 2010, 07:58:02 AM
The point that I am trying to make is that the law is not perfect. It's made by humans after all. So much so that even if someone commits murder, he still can get away scot-free.

But, according to Christianity, someone can be a vicious murderer their whole life and repent at the last moment of their life and escape punishment. They get off scott free in god's justice system. How is that an improvement over man's justice system? Add the fact that you can spend an eternity in hell for minor sins and I'd say god's justice system is crap.

Who are we to say that we have to be good to others? The global world human population is billions. Do you expect every single of us to be good? It just doesn't work that way.

So?

Look at the animal kingdom. Why can't lions and deers live in harmony? Same for birds and worms, cats and mice. Lions even engage in infanticide, that is they kill cubs from rival prides. Some animals even eat their young. In fact, we are actually mammals.

So???

Quote
What makes you think we have no conscience? You can have a conscience without god. I don't worry about heaven or hell, but that doesn't mean I act like a barbarian.

That's what I infer from Moderator_020's post in another thread. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=10109.30
Post #57

He/she said that "A dualistic approach to consciousness is an illusion."

Can you explain to me what he means by that?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 17, 2010, 08:00:01 AM
Quote
What makes you think we have no conscience? You can have a conscience without god. I don't worry about heaven or hell, but that doesn't mean I act like a barbarian.

That's what I infer from Moderator_020's post in another thread. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=10109.30
Post #57

He/she said that "A dualistic approach to consciousness is an illusion."

I do not see how these ideas are in any way connected.  Are you confusing "conscious" with "conscience"?


edit:

OJ simpson was proved innocent, wasn't he?

No.  They failed to find him guilty.  There is a difference.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: lotanddaughters on September 17, 2010, 08:12:13 AM
OJ simpson was proved innocent, wasn't he?

    If you use that same logic that led you to know O.J. Simpson was guilty and applied that logic to the Bible and Christianity, you would also know that the Bible was written by ignorant men. You would know that Christianity is a cult that sprouted from the Jewish cult, which sprouted from the Canaanite cult, etc.

    I wasn't there when O.J. killed those people, but I still know he did, just the same as if I actually witnessed it. If I was falsely accused of murder and locked up in prison, and I knew that the real killer was still at large, I would be furious. You wouldn't see me all smiley-faced when I was trying on those bloody gloves, knowing that the real killer was still out there. The DNA evidence wouldn't point to me either. After I was acquitted, and turned on the T.V. and saw a bunch of comedians making jokes as if I was the actual killer, I would probably spend my entire freedom searching until the real killer was found.

    Believe it or not, there are still idiots who believe O.J. was innocent. Why? Maybe some are retarded. Maybe some are huge football fans who just can't handle the reality that O.J. is guilty, no matter how immense the evidence is. Religion is not the only area where you find ignorant bias. I'm sure most people have sat next to someone at a sports event, and this someone expresses his/her disapproval of every call that is made by the officials. To this person, there is always some conspiracy either against their favorite team or for the other team. Maybe some of these fools, who think O.J. is innocent, don't even like football. The reality that a murderer could legally be set free with the potential to murder again is so frightening to them, that they simply refuse to believe it.

    If you read just a tiny portion of the arguments presented on this website that prove that the God of the Bible could not possibly exist, and you still wish to believe in a lie, you are no different than an ignorant juror at the O.J. Simpson trial.

    Hey, maybe there theoretically could be a Creator of the universe. But that Creator could have been created by another CREATOR, etc. You can bet 100% that if any of these "Creators" did write a book, it would be the greatest book ever written, unquestionably. Unless, of course, one of their CREATORS came out with a better book. :shrug
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 18, 2010, 03:13:02 AM

Parellel, simple yes/no question for you. 

Are you good because for the potential reward, or for fear of the punishment if you are not?

Neither. I have already stated in an earlier post that I am not a believer in any type/form of God at all. There's a 'Ask questions in the forum' link on GII.com so I decided to sign up because I felt that there were some aspects that were not discussed on GII and WWGHA. So here I am.

Back to the discussion. How do you define good? A law abiding citizen? Filial to parents? Not using a swear word? Let's just say that even if there were no laws and someone were to give me 1 billion dollars, I wouldn't kill a human being. Because it is simply not in me to do so. I just can't do it. It's not about the punishment or reward, you get what I mean? Which brings me to...

Here's my reply to Agamemnon. You asked 'so?' I will tell you so.

The main difference between us and the animals is that we have a higher level of intelligence than them, which enables us to communicate by speaking, inventing all sorts of things and whatnot. We humans are classified as mammals. Wikipedia's definition of mammal is 'Mammals are a class of vertebrate, air-breathing animals'

So to cut a long story short, we are animals.

I said in that post who are we to say we have to be good to others. I would like to add on. Who are we to say that what those murderers and rapists did are wrong? I know it is cruel but so? Lions kill deers. Cats kill rats. Birds kill worms. Are those animals wrong? You may say that they are different in the sense that they are killing for food. So? Lions kill baby cubs from rival prides. That is clearly not for food. You may say 'So? What has that to do with humans?' It has everything to do with us! As I have shown in the paragraph before, we are animals! From wikipedia - 'An estimated 520,000 people were murdered in 2000 around the globe.' The world population at the time was 6,070,581,000. That's 8.57%. That is not a small percentage at all. If it is not in our nature to kill each other, the percentage would be way way smaller, like 0.1% to 0.99% range.

Nature made those murderers the way they are, just like nature made the rest of us to be non-murderers. Just like there are breeds of dogs that won't hesitate to bite you if you provoke them, there are also gentler breeds of dogs who would simply bark at you and not attack.

Why do lions get away with murdering their own(cubs, rival lions) but it is wrong for humans to murder humans? I don't want to hear that same old reasoning of 'They are animals, we are not so it is different' I have already shown you that we are animals. That is not me talking out of my arse. That's science talking.

Have you watch Natural Born Killers? I recommend it if you haven't.

Some people are born to be murderers. How can you blame them? Just like how lions are born to be murderers. How are those murderers different from rival lions killing each other? In both cases, they are getting rid of whoever that they don't like. Isn't that what racism is mostly about? Asking the murderer to be good to others is like asking the lion not to kill the deers. Why do some murderers who get out of jail proceed to kill again? It's their nature. That is why some don't show remorse. It's like the lion analogy again. A lion will still kill after you set it free from the zoo.

As for the conscious thingy, my bad. I totally mistook consciousness for conscience.

Quote
But, according to Christianity, someone can be a vicious murderer their whole life and repent at the last moment of their life and escape punishment. They get off scott free in god's justice system. How is that an improvement over man's justice system? Add the fact that you can spend an eternity in hell for minor sins and I'd say god's justice system is crap.

I am talking in the context of not believing in God. Example - Let's say there's this guy who is an atheist. He hates his boss so bad. He knows the law is not 100 percent foolproof. So he begins planning the perfect murder. In the end, he got away scot-free because of insufficient evidence, and then living life as normal with no remorse whatsoever. Isn't he making full use of the only life he got? By getting rid of the boss he hates so bad, he can breathe easier at work. Plus he got away scot-free!
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 18, 2010, 05:58:40 AM
Some people are born to be murderers. How can you blame them? Just like how lions are born to be murderers. How are those murderers different from rival lions killing each other? In both cases, they are getting rid of whoever that they don't like. Isn't that what racism is mostly about? Asking the murderer to be good to others is like asking the lion not to kill the deers. Why do some murderers who get out of jail proceed to kill again? It's their nature. That is why some don't show remorse. It's like the lion analogy again. A lion will still kill after you set it free from the zoo.

Indeed.  And for the same reason I would not want a lion walking the streets of my town, nor would I want a murderer who shows no remorse and is likely to do it again.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 19, 2010, 12:16:12 AM
Some people are born to be murderers. How can you blame them? Just like how lions are born to be murderers. How are those murderers different from rival lions killing each other? In both cases, they are getting rid of whoever that they don't like. Isn't that what racism is mostly about? Asking the murderer to be good to others is like asking the lion not to kill the deers. Why do some murderers who get out of jail proceed to kill again? It's their nature. That is why some don't show remorse. It's like the lion analogy again. A lion will still kill after you set it free from the zoo.

Indeed.  And for the same reason I would not want a lion walking the streets of my town, nor would I want a murderer who shows no remorse and is likely to do it again.

Of course you wouldn't want a lion or a murderer in the streets. I wouldn't want that too. Why? Because we don't want to die. Deers would prefer their land to be free of lions and other predators too. It's all basic instinct, survival of the fittest stuff.

I would like to reiterate my main point, which is, who are we to say that murdering is wrong? Yes it is cruel and you don't want it to happen to you but so what? It is still within the 'rules' of nature. Do you see deers complaining to their fellow deers that the lions are wrong to murder them? Granted they can't talk but you get the idea. Say a basketball team is winning by a large margin, yet they continue to run up the score during the last few minutes. You may not like it but it is not wrong since the rules of the game did not say that it's not allowed. Please bare in mind that I am neither condoning or encouraging murder.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Aaron123 on September 19, 2010, 10:38:39 AM
Of course you wouldn't want a lion or a murderer in the streets. I wouldn't want that too. Why? Because we don't want to die. Deers would prefer their land to be free of lions and other predators too. It's all basic instinct, survival of the fittest stuff.

I would like to reiterate my main point, which is, who are we to say that murdering is wrong? Yes it is cruel and you don't want it to happen to you but so what? It is still within the 'rules' of nature.

Sounds like you're answering your own question.  Murder is cruel, we don't want it to happen to us, and we don't want it to happen to others (at least those we care for), so we declare murder to be wrong.  Seems pretty simple and straightforward, really.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 19, 2010, 10:10:26 PM
Of course you wouldn't want a lion or a murderer in the streets. I wouldn't want that too. Why? Because we don't want to die. Deers would prefer their land to be free of lions and other predators too. It's all basic instinct, survival of the fittest stuff.

I would like to reiterate my main point, which is, who are we to say that murdering is wrong? Yes it is cruel and you don't want it to happen to you but so what? It is still within the 'rules' of nature.

Sounds like you're answering your own question.  Murder is cruel, we don't want it to happen to us, and we don't want it to happen to others (at least those we care for), so we declare murder to be wrong.  Seems pretty simple and straightforward, really.

Oh, so it's okay for us humans to kill chickens, cows, etc for food but it is wrong to kill each other? Oh because they are not humans so it's okay to kill them? How do you think the mother of the cow that you just killed feels? Do you think that animals don't feel any pain when they are slaughtered?

Murder will always be part of nature. That's a fact. Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them? Don't give me that excuse that no species kill their own. The lions are doing it to baby cubs from rival prides(Youtube has clips of it), etc.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 20, 2010, 08:43:08 AM
Of course you wouldn't want a lion or a murderer in the streets. I wouldn't want that too. Why? Because we don't want to die. Deers would prefer their land to be free of lions and other predators too. It's all basic instinct, survival of the fittest stuff.

Really?  You think murder is natural selection at work?

I would like to reiterate my main point, which is, who are we to say that murdering is wrong?

Well, since murder is defined as wrongful or unjustified killing, and since we make up the meaning of words, then I would say we are the authorities on the matter.

Yes it is cruel and you don't want it to happen to you but so what?

So, we have come up with rules of behavior that we more or less all agree are practical allow us to function in groups.  Without these rules we could not trust each other enough to have society.  We find that there are much greater benefits to all of us by having societies, so we have found a way to do it.  Individuals who do not follow these rules are not to be trusted and are punished or excluded from the group.

It is still within the 'rules' of nature.

And?  Nobody is saying the universe cares whether one talking monkey kills another.  It only matters to the talking monkeys.


Do you see deers complaining to their fellow deers that the lions are wrong to murder them?

The plural of "deer" is "deer".  If deer could talk and comprehend morality, then yes, they would absolutely agree that deer being devoured by lions is a horrible injustice, just like we do when some kid jumps the fence at a zoo and is eaten by a polar bear.  My father thinks it would be a good idea to kill every alligator in the world just make sure no humans are ever killed by them. 

Granted they can't talk but you get the idea. Say a basketball team is winning by a large margin, yet they continue to run up the score during the last few minutes. You may not like it but it is not wrong since the rules of the game did not say that it's not allowed.

And?  What point are you trying to make? 

Oh, so it's okay for us humans to kill chickens, cows, etc for food but it is wrong to kill each other?

Some people argue that.  Some argue it is not okay to do that.  I say we are omnivores.  As such, we eat other animals and that is okay with me.  But I think it is important to recognize how special life is and not take it for granted.  Just because it is food does not mean it is worthless.

Murder will always be part of nature.

You are confusing murder with killing again.

That's a fact. Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them? Don't give me that excuse that no species kill their own. The lions are doing it to baby cubs from rival prides(Youtube has clips of it), etc.

I think there might be something wrong with you.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 20, 2010, 09:15:50 AM
Killing is in nature. Agreed.

To Kill is merely "to cause someone or something to die".

Humans define Murder as "the crime of a person intentionally killing another person, particularly with premeditation".

There is also Manslaughter which is "the crime of killing a person by someone who did not intend to do it or who cannot be responsible for their actions".

Who are we to say Murder is wrong? Well we defined it and it matters to us... so I'd say only we are to say whether it's wrong or not.

If a rock falls on my head and kills me... too fucking bad. That's not 'wrong'.

If a lion eats me ... too fucking bad. That's not wrong because it can't act otherwise. It cannot be reasoned with now can it?

If a person murders me with a gun to take my wallet, that's wrong.
Why? Because we say so.

As a society we have evolved morals and values. To allow people to murder other people without negative consequences would be detrimental to society as whole.

Hence, we classify it as 'bad'.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Aaron123 on September 20, 2010, 09:48:24 AM
Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them?

Now I know you're overanalyzing things...

Good grief.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 20, 2010, 10:07:25 AM
Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them?

Yes.. and we have determined that these are not bad things. In fact, killing germs is something we've determined to be good (for us). So what?

If the grass or the germs had a sense of morality, from their point of view, these would be immoral things.

Instead, the grass doesn't care about us and it doesn't feel pain. Bacteria don't care about us and sometimes make us sick or kill us so we defend ourselves from them.

Big deal.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 20, 2010, 10:21:58 AM
I'll have to say, it seems that Parallel has no idea what the difference between murder and killing is and what natural selection is.  Interesting. 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 20, 2010, 04:01:57 PM
Surely, the burden of proof is not on us to show that when someone says "cut off your hand" he doesn't mean "cut off your hand", but he means "deal with your inner demons without actually cutting off your hand, sinner!"?
Why is the burden of proof on me?  If someone says "raining cats and dogs", is the burden of proof on me to prove that this deal with water rather than house pets?  If Blake says "tiger, tiger, burning bright", is the burden of proof on me to prove that this deals with ferocious instincts rather than flammable jungle cats?  Why is the burden of proof on the person who says what's sensible and straightforward, while the person who's resting their entire case on a ridiculously obtuse line of reasoning doesn't have to provide any reasoning at all?

Let me ask you this.  What would you classify as proof?  I've already suggested reason, logic, and common sense, but apparently folks on this board don't like that sort of thing.  So then what would classify as proof that Jesus meant this statement to be a metaphor?  If you can't explain what you mean by "proof" in this situation, then your demand that I produce proof isn't meaningful.

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You don't have to take this video seriously. Just like you don't take some/many of the other interpretations/denominations of Christianity seriously. And, unfortunately, much like how you can't explain to us why we should take your interpretation or even Christianity itself seriously. But you just do (take one specific interpretation and just run with it), so why can't the creator of the video take one interpretation and run with it as well?
Well, I've already answered this, but what they hey, I'll do it again.  The video maker wants me to believe that Jesus was crazy.  His proof that Jesus was crazy is that Jesus said "If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off."  (Of course he also listed four other quotes from Jesus, but it seems you all have admitted that the video maker was flat wrong about that one.)  So the entire correctness of the video rests on the assumption that Jesus was demonstrating craziness rather than using a metaphor.  And since every Christian agrees that it was a metaphor, there's nothing to be accomplished by pretending otherwise.  Indeed the video maker's line of reasoning is so utterly bizarre and desperate that some people might question his sanity.

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Are Christians generally taught to preempt every talk with religious aspects with "First things first: I just want to say that I am of x denomination and I don't interpret the bible the same way you do. In fact, I think that some of the things you believe about god and Jesus are at best inaccurate and at worst ridiculous. So whenever I refer to Christians, Christianity, God and Jesus, I usually mean my interpretation of them, not yours, which I don't acknowledge as correct"? If they don't, why do you expect the creator of this video to do so?
I've never expected the creator of the video to do so.  I've expected the video maker to display a little bit of intelligence, and the response from another posted was that this is "an impossibly high standard".  Which really says it all.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 20, 2010, 04:09:33 PM
Lose that ridiculous interpretation of Jesus' words and the whole video falls apart and looks rather pathetic.
My wife doesn't think it is a ridiculous interpretation. She's a strict fundamentalist Christian and believes every word of the bible is the literal truth.
It's looks like you've discovered the nice thing about message boards: one can post whatever annecdotal evidence one wants and there's no way for your opponent to verify it.  Let me ask you this.  If it were true, as you say, that there are Christians out there who believe that "If they hand causes you to sin, cut it off" is a literal command calling for dismemberment, then surely some of them would have said so directly in books, magazines, sermons, websites, etc...  And thus you should be able to link me to an example (in fact many examples) of Christians stating directly that this is not a metaphor.  So why are you not able to do so?  Why do you instead lean on unverifiable, annecdotal evidence?  (As a preemptive strike on this issue, let me mention that quoting someone as saying that the Bible is "literally the word of God" will not suffice as proof of your position, since that would refer to the transcription of the text, and would not in any way contradict the use of metaphor.)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 20, 2010, 04:22:14 PM
@AlexBP

I never got a response to this post:

So tell me. Is this literal or metaphorical and explain why, please.
Bringing up other passages in the Bible and asking me whether they are literal or metaphorical is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.  The topic of this thread was whether anyone could defend the video entitled "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus".  It's plain at this point that the answer is no, no one can defend the video.  You all are desperately trying to change the subject in order to avoid facing the fact that the video is shredded so easily.  The only real response that I've gotten is, paraphrased, "Okay, that video's a load of crap, nonetheless we've got other arguments that do hold water."  If that's the tack you want to take, perhaps you could point me to something on the site that does stand up to five seconds of scrutiny.

As for the question of whether certain biblical passages are intended to be metaphorical, I'd be happy to take that up at length in a different thread, but the basic answer is that we Christians are still permitted to use logic and common sense, and we apply those to the Bible as to everything else.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 20, 2010, 04:56:31 PM
No, you have failed in providing any reason why anyone should take your word for it that such phrases as "cutting of your hand" is metaphorical.

I have asked several of my religious friends, all from different denominations, and every single one of them categorically believes it means what it says. That if you sin, and you can't keep your hand from sinning, that you cut it off.

Well, I take that back, one of my brothers thinks it means that you remove yourself from the temptation. But if you can't do that, and still sin, then cut it off.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: radames on September 20, 2010, 05:16:58 PM
Let me sidetrack a bit. Since there is no God and no after life, I guess it gives us a license to do whatever we want to huh? After all, once you are dead, you are dead. You don't go to hell nor heaven. Since we have no soul or conscience, what's stopping me from committing heinous crimes or doing whatever absurd things I want?

That's exactly why a "good" atheist is better than a "good" believer.  An atheist who does good (even when its hard) does it because its good.  A believer who does good does it - at least in part - knowing there is reward or punishment to come.

But it IS a fair question - with no external morality, why should any person not simply satisfy their own whims?  The answer for me is because this is the one life we all get - not just me, but you, and everyone.  If I agree it is ok to hurt others to please myself, then I have to also admit that it is okay for others to hurt me to please themselves. 

Think this gorilla just got finished reading his or her daily potion of morality in the bible?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihUGT7MdDB4[/youtube]
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: CutePuppy on September 20, 2010, 06:22:04 PM
Surely, the burden of proof is not on us to show that when someone says "cut off your hand" he doesn't mean "cut off your hand", but he means "deal with your inner demons without actually cutting off your hand, sinner!"?
Why is the burden of proof on me?  If someone says "raining cats and dogs", is the burden of proof on me to prove that this deal with water rather than house pets?  If Blake says "tiger, tiger, burning bright", is the burden of proof on me to prove that this deals with ferocious instincts rather than flammable jungle cats?

I'm sorry, but I don't see even in the slightest how you compare these to "cut off your hand"?

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Why is the burden of proof on the person who says what's sensible and straightforward, while the person who's resting their entire case on a ridiculously obtuse line of reasoning doesn't have to provide any reasoning at all?

This line is completely meaningless. What you claim is sensible and straightforward isn't sensible and straightforward to me at all. So again, provide evidence that your interpretation is correct instead of throwing such unsubstantiated, subjective lines like "this makes sense, and yours doesn't" nonsense. I can throw such meaningless statements right back at you: you're not making sense, it's neither logical nor sensible. Your turn again.

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Let me ask you this.  What would you classify as proof?  I've already suggested reason, logic, and common sense, but apparently folks on this board don't like that sort of thing.  So then what would classify as proof that Jesus meant this statement to be a metaphor?  If you can't explain what you mean by "proof" in this situation, then your demand that I produce proof isn't meaningful.

Nothing you say is meaningful. You claim that passage is supposed to be a metaphor, back it up with something else other than "it's common sense". If you don't accept such statements from me, e.g. that you're not making sense, which is common sense to me, don't expect me to take such baseless assertions from you, either.

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The video maker wants me to believe that Jesus was crazy.  His proof that Jesus was crazy is that Jesus said "If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off."  (Of course he also listed four other quotes from Jesus, but it seems you all have admitted that the video maker was flat wrong about that one.)  So the entire correctness of the video rests on the assumption that Jesus was demonstrating craziness rather than using a metaphor.  And since every Christian agrees that it was a metaphor, there's nothing to be accomplished by pretending otherwise.  Indeed the video maker's line of reasoning is so utterly bizarre and desperate that some people might question his sanity.

Christians agreeing with each other not to cut off their hands when they sin using it seems like an awfully convenient thing to do. Which actually doesn't say anything about how sane they are in believing in what seems to be their own propped up doll they call Jesus/God (hint: it's not sanity). Nor does it provide any kind of evidence that that statement isn't to be taken literally, but Christians just decided to ignore that for convenience sake. I think that's actually the point of the video: you guys are just making things up as you go along, whatever is convenient to you. "What, Jesus said we should cut off our hand if we sin with it? That's too harsh, we'll just say he didn't mean that literally!"

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Quote
Are Christians generally taught to preempt every talk with religious aspects with "First things first: I just want to say that I am of x denomination and I don't interpret the bible the same way you do. In fact, I think that some of the things you believe about god and Jesus are at best inaccurate and at worst ridiculous. So whenever I refer to Christians, Christianity, God and Jesus, I usually mean my interpretation of them, not yours, which I don't acknowledge as correct"? If they don't, why do you expect the creator of this video to do so?
I've never expected the creator of the video to do so.  I've expected the video maker to display a little bit of intelligence, and the response from another posted was that this is "an impossibly high standard".  Which really says it all.

Look, you've presented nothing substantial whatsoever to show that that line is to be taken metaphorically rather than literally, so I'd rather you didn't spout about other people's lack of intelligence until you figure out you have absolutely nothing right now. You still have a lot of posts to catch up to in this thread, so there is plenty of time to realize that you have no case here.

Speaking of displaying a little bit of intelligence, are you going to acknowledge you misinterpreting a statement here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=15728.msg352596#msg352596 ? That would be nice. Show some class, if nothing else.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 20, 2010, 10:00:12 PM
Why is the burden of proof on me?  If someone says "raining cats and dogs", is the burden of proof on me to prove that this deal with water rather than house pets?  If Blake says "tiger, tiger, burning bright", is the burden of proof on me to prove that this deals with ferocious instincts rather than flammable jungle cats?  Why is the burden of proof on the person who says what's sensible and straightforward, while the person who's resting their entire case on a ridiculously obtuse line of reasoning doesn't have to provide any reasoning at all?

Because there are obvious differences between poetry, euphemisms and the bible.  Writing about big cats on fire makes no sense. House pets falling from the sky makes no sense.  But the bible says a lot of crazy shit that also makes no sense, but people actually take literally.  Babel.  Noah.  Jonah.  Moses vs Pharaoh.  Jesus.  So the whole literal/figurative thing in the bible is really unclear.

You claim this is a metaphor.  Maybe you have explained the metaphor already.  If so, I missed it.  What is it a metaphor of?  Why would that not be meant literally?  I took it as underscoring the importance of the afterlife relative to the importance of things in the "material world".  What does your hand or eye matter compared to eternity in heaven or hell?  Could that be figurative?  maybe.  But that would be the way someone who is not serious about salvation might think.  That would be the difference between the xian who was willing to be devoured by lions in the coliseum and the xian who would renounce jesus H to the Romans.



By the way, you have not answered my last post to you at the top of page 3 of this thread.  It was a good point about agape.  The conversation has moved on while you were gone, so I get it if you don't want to answer.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 20, 2010, 10:46:00 PM
Before I reply, I would like to clarify something. When I say murdering, I am talking about killing in all aspects, be it intentional or what.

Of course you wouldn't want a lion or a murderer in the streets. I wouldn't want that too. Why? Because we don't want to die. Deers would prefer their land to be free of lions and other predators too. It's all basic instinct, survival of the fittest stuff.

Really?  You think murder is natural selection at work?

Of course it is. Why is it I can't kill a person even if there were no laws and you were to offer me 1 million whereas serial killers kill without hesitating? Nature made me who I am and nature also made the murderers who they are.
Quote from: screwtape
I would like to reiterate my main point, which is, who are we to say that murdering is wrong?

Well, since murder is defined as wrongful or unjustified killing, and since we make up the meaning of words, then I would say we are the authorities on the matter.

Where do you get the definition that murder is wrongful?

Dictionary.com states -
Murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

We are the authorities simply because we invented the meaning of words? What kind of logic is that? It doesn't even make sense.

It's like saying that a claw is defined as a sharp, usually curved, nail on the foot of an animal, as on a cat, dog, or bird, and since we make up the meaning of words, then I would say we are the authorities on the matter.

Quote from: screwtape
Yes it is cruel and you don't want it to happen to you but so what?

So, we have come up with rules of behavior that we more or less all agree are practical allow us to function in groups.  Without these rules we could not trust each other enough to have society.  We find that there are much greater benefits to all of us by having societies, so we have found a way to do it.  Individuals who do not follow these rules are not to be trusted and are punished or excluded from the group.

What kind of rules of behavior? Without these rules we could not trust each other enough to have society? How did Hitler gather so many followers with violence as his methodology? Same for Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, etc.

Quote from: screwtape
It is still within the 'rules' of nature.

And?  Nobody is saying the universe cares whether one talking monkey kills another.  It only matters to the talking monkeys.


And what? What are you trying to ask me?

Quote from: screwtape
Do you see deers complaining to their fellow deers that the lions are wrong to murder them?

The plural of "deer" is "deer".  If deer could talk and comprehend morality, then yes, they would absolutely agree that deer being devoured by lions is a horrible injustice, just like we do when some kid jumps the fence at a zoo and is eaten by a polar bear.  My father thinks it would be a good idea to kill every alligator in the world just make sure no humans are ever killed by them. 

If you go to dictionary.com, 'deers' is used as plural too. Absolutely agree? Wow. How do you know for sure? It can never be proven.

Quote from: screwtape
Granted they can't talk but you get the idea. Say a basketball team is winning by a large margin, yet they continue to run up the score during the last few minutes. You may not like it but it is not wrong since the rules of the game did not say that it's not allowed.

And?  What point are you trying to make? 

I wrote that in the same paragraph as the 'rules' of the nature thingy. Isn't that clear enough? For your sake, I will repeat. That murder is neither wrong nor right, just like how a basketball team running up the score isn't wrong nor right.

Quote from: screwtape
Oh, so it's okay for us humans to kill chickens, cows, etc for food but it is wrong to kill each other?

Some people argue that.  Some argue it is not okay to do that.  I say we are omnivores.  As such, we eat other animals and that is okay with me.  But I think it is important to recognize how special life is and not take it for granted.  Just because it is food does not mean it is worthless.


So eating animals is okay with you right? But killing humans is wrong? What's the difference? You are still taking a life.

Quote from: screwtape
That's a fact. Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them? Don't give me that excuse that no species kill their own. The lions are doing it to baby cubs from rival prides(Youtube has clips of it), etc.

I think there might be something wrong with you.

I am illustrating the fact that the act of killing is everywhere around us.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 20, 2010, 10:56:35 PM
If a person murders me with a gun to take my wallet, that's wrong.
Why? Because we say so.


Because we say so? Who are you to say so? Aren't you trying to play god by doing so?

Quote from: plethora
As a society we have evolved morals and values. To allow people to murder other people without negative consequences would be detrimental to society as whole.

Hence, we classify it as 'bad'.

Yes, it might be detrimental but that doesn't mean it is wrong. I am not saying it is right either.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: parallel on September 20, 2010, 11:05:52 PM
Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them?

Yes.. and we have determined that these are not bad things. In fact, killing germs is something we've determined to be good (for us). So what?



So how about thinking from the murderers' point of view? For example Hitler. He determined that killing Jews was good for the Nazis as a whole.  
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 20, 2010, 11:12:13 PM
Because we say so? Who are you to say so? Aren't you trying to play god by doing so?

Not necessarily.

I may be trying to play Gandalf.

But for me, the reason WHY we "say so" basically all goes back to the social nature of the human animal, much like the social nature of, say, gorillas (at the top of my mind because I just saw a neat video clip on them).

As social animals, we depend on each other for a wide variety of things. One of those things is the ability to live somewhat in a state of low anxiety.

If I have to be concerned that my safety or the safety of my clan (or children, whatever) is at risk every time I leave my home, then, as a society, as a culture, as a civilization, we are not going to get very far.

So we impose certain parameters that make us less anxious about such things.

We make certain things "illegal" and impose punishments on people who break those parameters.

Stealing; assault; rape; murder.

But in many of those we also have certain "qualifications" that allow for such infractions, albeit under certain other sets of conditions that we, as a society, agree upon.



Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 21, 2010, 04:39:18 AM
It's plain at this point that the answer is no, no one can defend the video.  You all are desperately trying to change the subject in order to avoid facing the fact that the video is shredded so easily.  The only real response that I've gotten is, paraphrased, "Okay, that video's a load of crap, nonetheless we've got other arguments that do hold water." 

I note you didn't respond to this question of mine.  I wonder why not?  Could it be that it makes far too plain that "cut off thy hand" was meant quite, quite literally?

Sure.  The metaphorical interpretation must be correct because the literal interpretation makes no sense.  "If your right hand causes you to sin..." can't mean anything literally because rights hands never cause anyone to sin.  Sin can only be a conscious decision made in the mind, not in the right hand.  Further, that line doubles as a joke about a certain activity that some people do with their right hand, and jokes are not meant to be taken literally.
You've been given an example that shows how a hand could indeed cause one to sin.  But looking at the "joke"....what of someone who does indeed spill his seed and feels they can't help themselves.  Would not literally cutting off their hand make perfect sense, in light of the "better to enter heaven incomplete"?

I'll quote it again, since you have conveniently ignored the quote in order for the passage to fit your preconceptions:

""it is profitable for the that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (repeated twice).  If nothing is physically being cut off, what is the point of this line - specifically?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 21, 2010, 05:33:35 AM
As for the question of whether certain biblical passages are intended to be metaphorical, I'd be happy to take that up at length in a different thread, but the basic answer is that we Christians are still permitted to use logic and common sense, and we apply those to the Bible as to everything else.

Right. Logic and common sense tells me that the bible is entirely false and mythical.

So much for 'faith'.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Grimm on September 21, 2010, 09:24:02 AM
3) Why would a loving, benevolent god write a book that required interpretation?  That two equally devout believers are capable of interpreting differently?
First of all, God did not write the gospels.  They were written by apostles Matthew and John and by Luke and Mark, companions of apostles.  As to why the Bible requires interpretation, all books require interpretation. 

I am just now following along with the entirety of this conversation, and so am joining a bit late.  If this has been addressed, I do apologize.

Alex - welcome.  I look forward to talking with you.  However, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not apostles nor companions of apostles, and no gospel was written within a generation of the events they purport to record.  Biblically, the oldest gospel is Mark, written somewhere around 65-70 CE - assuming Jesus was crucified somewhere around 30 CE, that's quite a bit of time later.  John is the youngest gospel, written c. 100 CE, about sixty years after the events in question.  The earliest church documents are the letters of Paul, but even he is a secondhand witness, and he never mentions certain items that are central points in later dogma.

Anyway, the point of saying this is to correct the misapprehension that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to events.  It's simply not true.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Grimm on September 21, 2010, 09:29:29 AM
But that was not what we were talking about, was it?  We were talking about whether killing people you love was consistent with what love is.  This has nothing to do with that.
Actually, that is exactly what we're talking about.  The video specifically discusses the military and warfare as its sole "evidence" on this point.  I started the thread as a discussion about the video.  If you haven't seen the video, which is the topic of the thread, then on what grounds do you go around telling me what the topic of the thread is?  The topic of the thread is the claims of the video, and your constant attempts to change the subject are as good as an admission that the video cannot be rationally defended.

Nevertheless, I'll answer your question.  There are many types of love.  In the original Greek of the New Testament, the "love your enemies" lines all use agape.  This indicates not a good, happy feeling towards people, but rather a recognition that those people are a part of creation with free will and motivations like my own. 

Again, apologies if this has been addressed:

Agape is the highest form of love in the Greek trio, not the lowest.  It is the all-consuming love, with most scholars translating it as "thoughtful, volitional, unconditional, and self-sacrificing'.  It is what Paul waxes philosophical about in the admittedly beautiful prose of 1 Corinthians 13 (though I am an unbeliever, I still think this is remarkably right).  Philia is 'brotherly love', that sort of friendship that includes non-sexual affection.  Then there's eros.  Hubba.  But agape is sort of the quintessential love.

It isn't at all what you define it to be, and not a single scholar, much less a biblical scholar, would agree with you. 

Regardless, it also goes to proving the point:  your interpretation of something differs markedly from most people's.  Should this not be raising a bit of a red flag for you?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 21, 2010, 09:35:08 AM
As to why the Bible requires interpretation, all books require interpretation.  
bold mine.

With this, you've said that the bible is no different than any other book. So what makes it extraordinary and yet no different than any other book? Isn't that a contradiction right there? So much for the word of an infallible god.

Why doesn't god just tap into us and give us his messages directly instead of using an ordinary book written by indirect accounts starting several decades after the alleged events?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Grimm on September 21, 2010, 09:36:05 AM
hmmm, really?  I seem to recall, Matthew 25 which seems to indicate that one has to be nice to one's fellow humans to get Jesus' approval.  You haven't been that, with your breezing in here making baseless claims, becoming abusive when shown you are wrong, etc.  The video may not be perfect, it may assume that Christians believe in certain ways, but any way a theist believes is open for question since you cannot demonstrate that your version is any better.
Oddly enough, I seem to recall that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said: "People will hate you and tell all kinds of horrible lies about you because you have chosen to follow Me.  When they do so, you should rejoice and be glad."  So by making these videos, the maker has helped the words of Jesus to come true once again, and the same might be said for certain posts on this forum.


This is not true.  There is a passage in the Sermon on the Mount that discusses turning the other cheek, yes.  There is also this passage:

Quote
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous....Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

But there is no passage about people hating you because you've chosen to follow Christ.  That does exist, but it's not  in the very famous Sermon.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 21, 2010, 09:37:19 AM
^^^ You must not be "interpreting" the bible correctly.

That's AlexBP's response to everything &)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Grimm on September 21, 2010, 10:30:44 AM
Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them?

Yes.. and we have determined that these are not bad things. In fact, killing germs is something we've determined to be good (for us). So what?



So how about thinking from the murderers' point of view? For example Hitler. He determined that killing Jews was good for the Nazis as a whole.  

While this is a terrible Godwin, let's address all of this murder conversation in two statements:

First - Do you honestly believe that if the Third Reich had succeeded in taking over the world it would not now be considered morally correct to persecute Jews?  For reference, one might want to look closely at the 'separate-but-equal' period in American history, when it was in fact considered morally correct to separate people by skin color, and to ignore the 'but equal' part of 'separate-but-equal' in a blatant persecution of a group of people.  This was only addressed in the 60's.

Additionally, remember that Jews fleeing Hitler's Germany were largely turned away from other countries, including the US.  Persecution of a people was and in many ways is still commonplace.  That we in the States no longer consider it morally acceptable in no way implies that societies as a whole do not.

Morality is relative, but it is safe to say that those moral structures that embrace freedom and equality have thus far excelled and grown, and it seems to be the state to which the human animal trends in preference to any sort of preferentialism.  It does not change the fact that in this world, today, there are those who believe it perfectly moral to enslave Phillipine immigrants in menial duties (Dubai!) or to ransom ships taken in piracy (Somalia!), or to tell people they don't have the right to build a place to worship (the outcry in Murfeesboro, TN over the mosque.. where the locals finally stood up and told the Christian agitators to shut it - go them!). 

As for the entire question of Murder - I think Heinlein wrote the best thing I've ever read on the subject:

"While a judge should be benevolent in purpose; his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment - and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism?"

In this quote, a man named Dillenger has just been hung for killing a little girl, and the main character - Rico - is trying to sort out justice:

Quote
If Dillinger had understood what he was doing (which seemed
incredible) then he got what was coming to him . . . except that it seemed a shame
that he hadn't suffered as much as had little Barbara Anne -- he
practically hadn't suffered at all.

But suppose, as seemed more likely, that he was so crazy that
he had never been aware that he was doing anything wrong? What then?

Well, we shoot mad dogs, don't we?

Yes, but being crazy that way is a sickness --

I couldn't see but two possibilities. Either he couldn't be made
well-- in which case he was better dead for his own sake and for the
safety of others -- or he could be treated and made sane. In which case (it
seemed to me) if he ever became sane enough for civilized society . . . and
thought over what he had done while he was "sick" -- what could be left for
him but suicide? How could he live with himself? And suppose he escaped before he was cured and did the same
thing again? And maybe again? How do you explain that to bereaved parents? In
view of his record?

I couldn't see but one answer.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Grimm on September 21, 2010, 12:08:26 PM
.... I'm still reading Heinlein, as I find it difficult to stop.  For added fun, this passage comes immediately following the above, as the hero reminisces on his school days and his class on Moral History and Philosophy:

Quote
"I agree. Young lady, the tragic wrongness of what those wellmeaning people did, contrasted with what they thought they were doing, goes very deep. They had no scientific theory of morals. They did have a theory of morals and they tried to live by it (I should not have sneered at their motives) but their theory was wrong -- half of it fuzzy-headed wishful thinking, half of it rationalized charlatanry. The more earnest they were, the farther it led them astray. You see, they assumed that Man has a moral instinct."

"Sir? But I thought -- But he does! I have."

"No, my dear, you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. Man has no moral instinct. He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not -- and a puppy has none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind.  These unfortunate juvenile criminals were born with none, even as you and I, and they had no chance to acquire any; their experiences did not permit it.

What is `moral sense'? It is an elaboration of the instinct to survive. The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. This truth is mathematically demonstrable, everywhere verifiable; it is the single eternal imperative controlling everything we do."

"But the instinct to survive," he had gone on, "can be cultivated into motivations more subtle and much more complex than the blind, brute urge of the individual to stay alive. Young lady, what you miscalled your `moral instinct' was the instilling in you by your elders of the truth that survival can have stronger imperatives than that of your own personal survival. Survival of your family, for example. Of your children, when you have them. Of your nation, if you struggle that high up the scale. And so on up. A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual's instinct to survive -- and nowhere else! -- and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and
resolve all conflicts."

"We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race -- we are even developing an exact ethic for extrahuman relations. But all moral problems can be illustrated by one misquotation:

`Greater love hath no man than a mother cat dying to defend her kittens.'"
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 22, 2010, 12:00:27 PM
Bringing up other passages in the Bible and asking me whether they are literal or metaphorical is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.  The topic of this thread was whether anyone could defend the video entitled "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus".  It's plain at this point that the answer is no, no one can defend the video.  You all are desperately trying to change the subject in order to avoid facing the fact that the video is shredded so easily.  The only real response that I've gotten is, paraphrased, "Okay, that video's a load of crap, nonetheless we've got other arguments that do hold water."  If that's the tack you want to take, perhaps you could point me to something on the site that does stand up to five seconds of scrutiny.
As for the question of whether certain biblical passages are intended to be metaphorical, I'd be happy to take that up at length in a different thread, but the basic answer is that we Christians are still permitted to use logic and common sense, and we apply those to the Bible as to everything else.

unfortunately, this is untrue. Many Christians compartmentalize their thinking.  They use logic, evidence, etc, in all aspects of their lives *except* their faith/religion. Claims that they find unbelievable in other religions, they blithely accept in their own, because they have invested so much of their selves in it, it would be an uncomfortable break if they actually thougth about what they professed to believe.

Christians do not apply logic to the bible for if they did, they would wonder why there were so many claims that had no evidence to back them up.  And as for common sense, for a long time "common sense" said that it was impossible to visit the moon, that the sun revolved around the earth, and that "god's wrath" caused disease.  

and I find the video easily enough defended, in that I can point to Christian after Christian ignoring what Jesus says to do and this seems a very important thing: to give up all of one's possessions and depend on God to provide.  I think the closests Christians who do this are the cult like Family.

and you yourself have made the literalness or metaphoricallity of the bible part of the discussion since you claimed this in your OP:

Quote
First of all the video attempts to prove that Christians disobey Jesus.  In this it fails because it misinterprets what Jesus said.  To see why we must understand the concept of a metaphor, which is a type of figurative language wherein someone says one thing that's not literally true because it illustrates a point in a vivid way.

YOu have not presented any method on how you determine which is literal and which is metaphor other than saying, in effect, "it's common sense, and thus *everyone* should agree with me".  We have shown you where other Christians who claim to be as pious as you disagree and you ignore those examples.  You claim logic but have not produced any logical arguments on why parts you don't like are metaphor and parts you do like, e.g. Jesus saving your soul by dying and raising, are literal. 

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 22, 2010, 11:58:13 PM
and I find the video easily enough defended, in that I can point to Christian after Christian ignoring what Jesus says to do and this seems a very important thing: to give up all of one's possessions and depend on God to provide.  I think the closests Christians who do this are the cult like Family.

If you read the the scriptures before the statement of the selling of all of ones possessions it is easily
understood what Jesus was trying to convey. The young man asked what he must do to attain eternal
life, Jesus gives him commandments, and in his pomp the man replies "I have done all these from my childhood up" , And so Jesus perceived the young mans pride, or self righteousness, and told him something that would cut him to the heart, and provoke him to think of his actual imperfection. The scripture that follows states that the young man left with sorrow because he had a lot of material possession. My feelings concerning this scripture are that if we put too much value in material things, we can start to become
like them, corruptible. If we value ourselves by what we own, which is corruptible, what happens when
all our things are taken away, we are nothing without them.

[modbreak]Fixed quoting[/modbreak]
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 23, 2010, 12:03:15 AM
I hope my punctuation was correct. I wish not to provoke the wrath of GIMPY  :shrug
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 23, 2010, 01:12:56 AM
and I find the video easily enough defended, in that I can point to Christian after Christian ignoring what Jesus says to do and this seems a very important thing: to give up all of one's possessions and depend on God to provide.  I think the closests Christians who do this are the cult like Family.

If you read the the scriptures before the statement of the selling of all of ones possessions it is easily
understood what Jesus was trying to convey. The young man asked what he must do to attain eternal
life, Jesus gives him commandments, and in his pomp the man replies "I have done all these from my childhood up" , And so Jesus perceived the young mans pride, or self righteousness, and told him something that would cut him to the heart, and provoke him to think of his actual imperfection. The scripture that follows states that the young man left with sorrow because he had a lot of material possession. My feelings concerning this scripture are that if we put too much value in material things, we can start to become
like them, corruptible. If we value ourselves by what we own, which is corruptible, what happens when
all our things are taken away, we are nothing without them.

Let's be clear: You are saying that "give away your posessions" was not meant literally.

So what DOES it mean?

I note also that you ignored the bulk of Velkyn's post about how you deduce what is literal and what is metaphor.  Do you have an answer to that or is it just your interpretation?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 23, 2010, 05:13:51 AM
My feelings concerning this scripture are that if we put too much value in material things, we can start to become like them, corruptible. If we value ourselves by what we own, which is corruptible, what happens when all our things are taken away, we are nothing without them.

If that's what jesus really meant... why didn't he just say so?

Something like this would be clear for all to understand:

"If you want to be perfect, don't value yourself for the riches you have. If you put to much value in material posessions, you are more likely to become corruptible."

Instead he said this:

Quote from: Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

... and you come to us, 2000 years after the alleged facts, to tell us you have the OneTrueInterpretationTM of what jesus really meant instead of what the bible says he actually said?

You would think the son of god, almighty creator of the universe, would say what he means and mean what he says instead of relying on interpreters such as yourself.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: screwtape on September 23, 2010, 08:27:15 AM
Before I reply, I would like to clarify something. When I say murdering, I am talking about killing in all aspects, be it intentional or what.

Then you are misusing the word.  "Killing" is the word you want. Murder is a very specific subset of killing.


Of course it is. Why is it I can't kill a person even if there were no laws and you were to offer me 1 million whereas serial killers kill without hesitating? Nature made me who I am and nature also made the murderers who they are.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Where do you get the definition that murder is wrongful?

American Heritage dictionary of the English language (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/murder)
Quote
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Mirriam Webster online (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder)
Quote
the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Webster's New World College dictionary (http://www.yourdictionary.com/murder)
Quote
the unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing of one human being by another; also, any killing done while committing some other felony, as rape or robbery


We are the authorities simply because we invented the meaning of words? What kind of logic is that? It doesn't even make sense.

Yes.  It makes sense.  Murder is wrong because that is how we have defined murder.  That is like saying apples taste like apples.  Of course they do.  What else could they taste like?

It's like saying that a claw is defined as a sharp, usually curved, nail on the foot of an animal, as on a cat, dog, or bird, and since we make up the meaning of words, then I would say we are the authorities on the matter.

Exactly. 


What kind of rules of behavior? Without these rules we could not trust each other enough to have society? How did Hitler gather so many followers with violence as his methodology? Same for Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, etc.

What kinds of rules would you think would be useful for a group to survive?  Think about how people are and what rules would be necessary.

You are fundamentally not understanding. Morality exists to bind people together in groups.  Nazi morality bound Nazis together.  Violence was not Hitler's methodology.  He did not personally beat every German into following him.  Random violence on all Germans was not part of the Nazi way.  He picked out a few select groups on whom to focus anger and derision.  The groups he singled out were somehow "different" than the germans of the homogeneous culture he envisioned - Jews, gays, gypsies, etc.  This has always been a part of human morality.  Forming and defining in groups and out groups.  In Hitler's case, "Arians" were the in group.  Everyone else was the out group. 

Humans generally do not regard the out group as human.  They do not give the out group the same degree of empathy or respect.  The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" should have said "Thou shalt not kill jews".  It was originally a rule for jews that only applied to other jews.  As their provincial god, yhwh, became more mainstream and more universal, that rule expanded in scope from "do not kill jews" to "do not kill other people," of course, with a whole boatload of exceptions. 

Think about who your in and out groups are.  Think about how you view them. 

And what? What are you trying to ask me?

I was not asking you anything.   I was making the point that "wrong" only exists in our heads.

Absolutely agree? Wow. How do you know for sure? It can never be proven.

You think deer do not mind being eaten?  You think prey cheerfully surrender to predators? 

Look, you were the one that said "you don't see deer complaining about the immorality of being eaten, do you?"  I could have said something as stupid as, "Wow. How do you know for sure?  It can never be proven."  Instead I tried to make a point that right and wrong are dependent on your perspective.  Your answer to that was disputing that hypothetical, morally cognisant, talking deer would find it problematic that they were being eaten by lions.  What the hell kind of answer is that? 

I thought we were going to have an intelligent conversation.  At least, that was my goal.  If you are going to act like a dipshit, then I won't waste my time.  Just let me know how this is going to go.


I wrote that in the same paragraph as the 'rules' of the nature thingy. Isn't that clear enough? For your sake, I will repeat. That murder is neither wrong nor right, just like how a basketball team running up the score isn't wrong nor right.

Don't act condescending, especially after that last paragraph.  It is not as if you are some kind of genius or I am an idiot.  This is a medium that is inherently poor for communicating complex ideas and it compounds your already poor writing skills. So do us both a favor and try to not act like a twat. 

So eating animals is okay with you right? But killing humans is wrong? What's the difference? You are still taking a life.

Obviously, my perspective as a human is the difference.  As I tried to point out before, I think if animals could be aware, they would have the same species bias that we have.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 23, 2010, 08:40:20 AM
I hope my punctuation was correct. I wish not to provoke the wrath of GIMPY  :shrug


No, it was fine. And it wasn't that hard, was it? Something tells me by your continual pouting over it that my comments struck a truth nerve?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 23, 2010, 09:12:07 AM
and I find the video easily enough defended, in that I can point to Christian after Christian ignoring what Jesus says to do and this seems a very important thing: to give up all of one's possessions and depend on God to provide.  I think the closests Christians who do this are the cult like Family.

If you read the the scriptures before the statement of the selling of all of ones possessions it is easily
understood what Jesus was trying to convey. The young man asked what he must do to attain eternal
life, Jesus gives him commandments, and in his pomp the man replies "I have done all these from my childhood up" , And so Jesus perceived the young mans pride, or self righteousness, and told him something that would cut him to the heart, and provoke him to think of his actual imperfection. The scripture that follows states that the young man left with sorrow because he had a lot of material possession. My feelings concerning this scripture are that if we put too much value in material things, we can start to become like them, corruptible. If we value ourselves by what we own, which is corruptible, what happens when all our things are taken away, we are nothing without them.

No suprises here, the usual excuse by a Christian why he doesn't have to follow Jesus's words. The young man's sorrow is certainly reflected in those excuses. You make assumptions here, PS.  You wish to assume the young man is not sincere, so you do not have to follow what Jesus says to do to be "perfect" and to have "treasure in heaven". Jesus then continues to say that posessions are again holding people back by saying the "rich" will have trouble entering heaven.  We see this explained again and again, with how Jesus says that people should look to the lilies of the field and the birds, that if they truly believe, they should trust in God to provide. 

I'm always amused with Christians who will shout "context" when they find it convenient but when actual context is provided, they often tend to ignore it if it is inconvenient. Rather than simply give up your possessions you want to claim that it is okay to have "some" as long as you don't get *too* attached to them. What a lovely bunch of qualifications added to a simple command. 

I'm curious what you think of such things as following:   

Quote
Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

Quote
Acts 4:32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

Assuming that the bible has any truth to it, it would seem to follow that the early believers did thing that Jesus, existential being or not, intended on relinquishing of possessions totally. 

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Grimm on September 23, 2010, 09:54:32 AM

Assuming that the bible has any truth to it, it would seem to follow that the early believers did thing that Jesus, existential being or not, intended on relinquishing of possessions totally. 

(Regardless, it's obvious the Catholic monastic tradition also supports it:  "Poverty, chastity, and obedience" are intended to bring one closer to god, and the cites for Poverty in this vow encompass all of the verses offered here.  Is the dissenting voice saying that he's right and the entire Catholic tradition is wrong?  How can we tell the difference, and why should we believe him?)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Operator_A25 on September 23, 2010, 10:41:34 AM
Bringing up other passages in the Bible and asking me whether they are literal or metaphorical is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

AlexBP,

In your OP You state:

First of all the video attempts to prove that Christians disobey Jesus.  In this it fails because it misinterprets what Jesus said.  To see why we must understand the concept of a metaphor, which is a type of figurative language wherein someone says one thing that's not literally true because it illustrates a point in a vivid way.

Therefore, the question of how you determine the difference between literal and metaphorical passages in the bible is on-topic and fair game.

Your failure to supply an effective and consistent means of discerning between metaphor and literal passages means that you have failed to supply a convincing counter argument to the videos. Your claim of "victory" is completely without merit, in my opinion.

What I think you are doing is attempting to dodge valid questions raised regarding your supposed ability to correctly interpret these passages.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 23, 2010, 01:21:39 PM
Whether or not the scripture was to be taken literally or metaphorically is insignificant, because a person can draw a conclusion based on one or the other or both.
My question is if when taken literally, why does it bother someone so much? And what does it say about the contents of our hearts?

Velkyn, I'll have to address your question concerning Acts later this evening
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agamemnon on September 23, 2010, 01:32:12 PM
Whether or not the scripture was to be taken literally or metaphorically is insignificant, because a person can draw a conclusion based on one or the other or both.

True enough--The conclusion I draw in all three cases is that the bible is mythology.

My question is if when taken literally, why does it bother someone so much? And what does it say about the contents of our hearts?

It doesn't bother me at all that someone takes the bible literally. If they want to believe all that silliness, that's fine. What bothers me is when people take the bible literally and try to force people to conform to their literal interpretation. That should bother everyone. When they start stoning people for adultery and cutting off people's hands for crimes, then I'm sorry, but I care about that.

In fact, even if they don't take the bible literally but they try to force their religion on me or someone else then I'm not going to like it. I really don't care what their interpretation is.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 23, 2010, 01:59:04 PM
Whether or not the scripture was to be taken literally or metaphorically is insignificant, because a person can draw a conclusion based on one or the other or both.
My question is if when taken literally, why does it bother someone so much? And what does it say about the contents of our hearts?

Velkyn, I'll have to address your question concerning Acts later this evening

If something is taken literally and touted as literal and there is nothing to indicate that it should be taken literally, it's a lie.  That certainly does say about the content of a person's character. 

and if taking something metaphorically or literally is "insignificant" then you are quite fine with the idea that your Jesus never existed and did not literally "save" you?  Or that yoru god isn't real?  Or that there is no real heavenly reward?  You see, I don't believe you when you say that it is "insignificant".

And no hurry.  I know that everyone has a life outside of the forums.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 23, 2010, 02:05:35 PM
My question is if when taken literally, why does it bother someone so much?

It "bothers" someone because the collection of stories then not only contradict themselves but facts as we know them to be true.

Someone who believes out right fabrications as literal and occurring reality, and then indoctrinating others, especially children, into those falsehoods sets up a very dangerous society.

To believe the bible literally is to accept as "truth" then things that cannot possibly be real, and have been proven to be false.

And what does it say about the contents of our hearts?

To me it says that person has a very cruel and inhumane heart.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 23, 2010, 02:08:31 PM
Aren't you killing the germs and bacteria when you wash your hands? Aren't you killing the grass by stepping on them?

Yes.. and we have determined that these are not bad things. In fact, killing germs is something we've determined to be good (for us). So what?



So how about thinking from the murderers' point of view? For example Hitler. He determined that killing Jews was good for the Nazis as a whole.  

Yes, morality is relative. A social structure growing out of somewhat conflicted evolutionary elements. It isn't something absolute dictated by a Deity. Yes, that does suck.

BTW you are going to die. That sucks too. No Heaven, no afterlife, just death.

These are absolutes that few want to confront.



Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 24, 2010, 12:13:00 AM
I hope my punctuation was correct. I wish not to provoke the wrath of GIMPY  :shrug
No, it was fine. And it wasn't that hard, was it? Something tells me by your continual pouting over it that my comments struck a truth nerve?
No Gimp, I just wasn't aware that it was so important.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 24, 2010, 01:01:15 AM
If something is taken literally and touted as literal and there is nothing to indicate that it should be taken literally, it's a lie.  That certainly does say about the content of a person's character. 

and if taking something metaphorically or literally is "insignificant" then you are quite fine with the idea that your Jesus never existed and did not literally "save" you?  Or that yoru god isn't real?  Or that there is no real heavenly reward?  You see, I don't believe you when you say that it is "insignificant".

And no hurry.  I know that everyone has a life outside of the forums.
I'm saying that it is really not important how you or I came to our conclusions when interpreting
the scripture at hand, what really matters is the meaning that is extracted from it. In your case it may support your claim to fallacy and absurdness, but in mine, it leads me to believe in a form of selflessness and charity, and whats wrong with that?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 24, 2010, 01:21:45 AM
My question is if when taken literally, why does it bother someone so much?

It "bothers" someone because the collection of stories then not only contradict themselves but facts as we know them to be true.

Someone who believes out right fabrications as literal and occurring reality, and then indoctrinating others, especially children, into those falsehoods sets up a very dangerous society.

To believe the bible literally is to accept as "truth" then things that cannot possibly be real, and have been proven to be false.

And what does it say about the contents of our hearts?

To me it says that person has a very cruel and inhumane heart.
Gimp, don't we currently live in a dangerous society? Wouldn't you agree that your statement
is a little extreme? I agree with you that religious extremist pose a threat. And yeah, seeing a four year
old child holding up a sign that says "God hates fags" makes me want to vomit, because these people are teaching their children hypocrisy and hate. If I raise my kids with the values of love and honesty, where is the danger in that?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Ambassador Pony on September 24, 2010, 05:30:19 AM
Raising kids to value belief in spite of evidence to the contrary, or lack of evidence, is child abuse, IMO. What a disgusting indvidual who would disadvantage a child like that. Poor kid, poor society.

 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Grimm on September 24, 2010, 08:20:22 AM
Gimp, don't we currently live in a dangerous society? Wouldn't you agree that your statement
is a little extreme? I agree with you that religious extremist pose a threat. And yeah, seeing a four year
old child holding up a sign that says "God hates fags" makes me want to vomit, because these people are teaching their children hypocrisy and hate. If I raise my kids with the values of love and honesty, where is the danger in that?

I do not presume to answer for Gimpy, but I have to say:  we don't live in a dangerous society.  We just don't.  Crime rates continue to decline.  Here's a simple reference from wikipedia (Crime in the United States):

Quote
The year 2005 was overall the safest year in the past thirty years. The recent overall decrease has reflected upon all significant types of crime, with all violent and property crimes having decreased and reached an all-time low. The homicide rate in particular has decreased over 42% between its record high point in 1991 and 2005.
Recently, however, the homicide rate has stagnated.[7] While the homicide rate decreased continuously between 1991 and 2000 from 9.8 homicides per 100,000 persons to 5.5 per 100,000, it has remained level through 2005.
Despite the recent stagnation of the homicide rate, however, property and violent crimes overall have continued to decrease, though at a considerably slower pace than in the 1990s.[7] Overall, the crime rate in the U.S. was the same in 2004 as in 1969, with the homicide rate being roughly the same as in 1966. Violent crime overall, however, is still at the same level as in 1974, despite having decreased steadily since 1991.[6]

Our fear of crime has certainly risen, pushed in no small part by those who gain an advantage from doing so - news programs gain viewership, churches gain members; if the world is going to hell, after all, shouldn't we be turning to God (or so they say)?  In truth, every year gets safer, in aggregate.

There is nothing wrong with raising your kids with good values.  However, raising them in a Christian religious tradition at the very least teaches them that disobedience results in everlasting torment, and that certain innocuous behaviours are absolutely terrible.  If your child is homosexual, for instance, and you teach that homosexuality results in the everlasting fire... what are you teaching?  If you teach your kids that those who don't follow the Christian tradition are damned, or those who don't believe as you do are wrong... what then?  If you teach your children that the world is six thousand years old, and that they should not believe anyone who tells them otherwise, what have you really done?

Kids are impressionable.  You likely believe because you were brought up to believe... and if you can see the extreme that is the Phelps clan (your God Hates Fags example), then you should realize that even something that seems moderate is the same nonsense wrapped in a more appealing wrapper.  Phelps believes pretty much as you do - God saved the world through Christ, and all the rest.. he just takes those passages where God is vicious and retributive and has built his faith around them.  It's worth noting that, to date, the Phelps clan has never defended themselves when attacked (save verbally) - they've simply endured and offered their message, turning the other cheek at every opportunity.

So.  By your own metric.. where's the harm in it?  If you see harm, how is it you can't see why we say they're not all that much different than any other religious community... just more obvious about it?  The Catholics decry homosexuality and turn these people out of their church; just because they're not holding signs that say "God Hates Fags" doesn't mean they're not practicing that sort of bigotry.  Protestant churches run people away from Planned Parenthood clinics, where they can get advice on fertility, birth control pills, and condoms; abortion is the least part of their work and most people going to those clinics need health advice, not abortions.  Bigotry at work again!

Faith is not inocuous.  Else atheists would have an easier time running for office, wouldn't you say?

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 24, 2010, 09:34:07 AM
I'm saying that it is really not important how you or I came to our conclusions when interpreting
the scripture at hand, what really matters is the meaning that is extracted from it. In your case it may support your claim to fallacy and absurdness, but in mine, it leads me to believe in a form of selflessness and charity, and whats wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that, if all theists got that message out of it, this supposed divinely inspired book.  But they don't. Christians use it to kill people, to harm their children, lying about science, etc.  It causes direct harm.  And you are left with the question, why does a supposed good deity allow this horribleness to happen, why can't it get its message out clearly? Why is there this vast differences between interpretation *and* a lack of any other evidence that any of the bible is true at all?

BTW, if you want to say free will, that's fine but consider, why was there constant interference by god in the Bible and how does that not affect free will and how does Romans 9, where it says God creates some people just to be destroyed, affect that too?

And I request that you answer my question, does it matter to you if your Jesus never really existed and that you really aren't saved that you have no "heaven" to go to, that you are indeed only stuck with living a charitable life here on this one and only earth?  You see, I don't believe that you are only concerned with living a selfless charitable life in that I suspect you don't really follow what Jesus said, that you should give up all you have and follow him.  
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 24, 2010, 11:10:19 AM
I hope my punctuation was correct. I wish not to provoke the wrath of GIMPY  :shrug
No, it was fine. And it wasn't that hard, was it? Something tells me by your continual pouting over it that my comments struck a truth nerve?
No Gimp, I just wasn't aware that it was so important.

Well, it IS important. It's VERY important, especially if you desire your posts to be easily read and comprehended.

People can often just read over typos and some grammatical errors and their brains fill in the gaps, but when you alter changes to word spacing, more specifically when you remove spacing, it causes the reader's brain to slow down and read not in clumps of words, as it is used to doing, but to have to slow down, back up and then read each word one at a time.

That process is almost imperceptible and most people aren't aware they are doing it. But it DOES subsequently affect reading comprehension because the brain can't fill in the "blanks" easier, since entire words get grouped together. Adding spaces in doesn't cause that much of a problem, but taking spacing out, which is what you do when you fail to space after commas, can inhibit communication.

That's one reason why people don't like to read large blocks of text that are in ALL CAPS, too. Because ALL CAPS changes the physical appearance of words, the brain has to slow down and read the text one word, or sometimes even one letter, at a time.

So again, thank you.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 24, 2010, 11:19:08 AM

Your own reply acknowledges the danger of taking the text of the collection of myths that is the bible literally.

Which is exactly my point. There is nothing extreme in my assessment that people who take the violence, rhetoric, hatefulness and such from the bible literally show me that they have a cruel and inhumane heart.

So what does it matter if people accept the "love" parts literally, if they also accept as literal that it's A-Okay to viciously murder innocent babies in a horrible death by drowning, or by bashing their heads against rocks, because their parents were bad or of the "wrong" faith, or that it was not only okay to rape the women and children of your enemies, but that your god-being also expected it of you!

If someone accepts the entire book as literal, to me that's what they are accepting and that, to me, is a cruel and inhumane heart.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 24, 2010, 03:58:12 PM
No, you have failed in providing any reason why anyone should take your word for it that such phrases as "cutting of your hand" is metaphorical.

I have asked several of my religious friends, all from different denominations, and every single one of them categorically believes it means what it says. That if you sin, and you can't keep your hand from sinning, that you cut it off.
Like I said to someone else in post 118, it's easy to post on the internet that you've got a friend, family member, co-worker, former college roommate, etc... whose opinion proves a point like this.  Obviously that sort of claim can't be verified in an online debate.  Then I pointed out that if it were actually true that a large number of Christians believe that the Bible does not employ metaphorical language in this passage or others, then surely some of those Christians would have written it in books or sermons or other sources that you could link to online and thereby prove the point.  If you're unable to provide such a link, why should I believe what you're saying here?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: AlexBP on September 24, 2010, 04:19:25 PM
I am just now following along with the entirety of this conversation, and so am joining a bit late.  If this has been addressed, I do apologize.

Alex - welcome.  I look forward to talking with you.  However, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not apostles nor companions of apostles, and no gospel was written within a generation of the events they purport to record.  Biblically, the oldest gospel is Mark, written somewhere around 65-70 CE - assuming Jesus was crucified somewhere around 30 CE, that's quite a bit of time later.  John is the youngest gospel, written c. 100 CE, about sixty years after the events in question.  The earliest church documents are the letters of Paul, but even he is a secondhand witness, and he never mentions certain items that are central points in later dogma.

Anyway, the point of saying this is to correct the misapprehension that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to events.  It's simply not true.
It may or may not be true, but there's certainly nothing that proves it to be untrue.  If we date the ministry of Jesus Christ at 30-33 A.D. and the Gospel of Mark at 70 A.D., then there's no reason why it could not have been written by an eyewitness.  Now the dates cannot be nailed down firmly.  Mark may have been written later, perhaps as late as about 90 A.D.  On the other hand it may have been written much earlier too.  It would be decently accurate to say that a consensus among scholars that dates the Gospel of Mark to 60-70 A.D., and if we accept that dating that there's no reason to say it's impossible for an eyewitness to write 27-37 years after the fact.  Plenty of people today write memoirs or other firsthand accounts of events that happened in the 70's or 80's (or earlier).

So yes, it would be defensible to say that the authorship of the gospels cannot be proven, but not that it has been disproven.  Compared to other ancient writings the evidence in favor of authorship by Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John is very strong.  The article below compares how scholars deal with authorship of ancient texts and shows that we frequently accept things where we've no evidence until many centuries after the fact.  Why then not accept the gospels written after a much shorter gap?
http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html (http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 24, 2010, 04:26:58 PM
No, you have failed in providing any reason why anyone should take your word for it that such phrases as "cutting of your hand" is metaphorical.

I have asked several of my religious friends, all from different denominations, and every single one of them categorically believes it means what it says. That if you sin, and you can't keep your hand from sinning, that you cut it off.
Like I said to someone else in post 118, it's easy to post on the internet that you've got a friend, family member, co-worker, former college roommate, etc... whose opinion proves a point like this.  Obviously that sort of claim can't be verified in an online debate.  Then I pointed out that if it were actually true that a large number of Christians believe that the Bible does not employ metaphorical language in this passage or others, then surely some of those Christians would have written it in books or sermons or other sources that you could link to online and thereby prove the point.  If you're unable to provide such a link, why should I believe what you're saying here?


Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think the argument is whether some or many or even one or thousands believe or don't believe that this passage or that passage in the collection of fairy tales that is commonly called the bible are metaphorical or literal. And certainly you don't have to believe me one way or the other if I have or do know christians who believe with all their heart that the "cut off your hand" passage is literal. That wasn't my point in mentioning it, only that there exists theists who believe that.

The conflict comes with what others have asked you repeatedly and I'm not finding where you have answered it, "how does anyone, of any christian flavor, determine which passages are to be understood as metaphors and which are to be taken literally"?

It should be an easy question to answer. There should be a consistent method to determine which are which.

You have not provided that. At all.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 24, 2010, 11:32:27 PM
I'm saying that it is really not important how you or I came to our conclusions when interpreting
the scripture at hand, what really matters is the meaning that is extracted from it. In your case it may support your claim to fallacy and absurdness, but in mine, it leads me to believe in a form of selflessness and charity, and whats wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that, if all theists got that message out of it, this supposed divinely inspired book.  But they don't. Christians use it to kill people, to harm their children, lying about science, etc.  It causes direct harm.  And you are left with the question, why does a supposed good deity allow this horribleness to happen, why can't it get its message out clearly? Why is there this vast differences between interpretation *and* a lack of any other evidence that any of the bible is true at all?

BTW, if you want to say free will, that's fine but consider, why was there constant interference by god in the Bible and how does that not affect free will and how does Romans 9, where it says God creates some people just to be destroyed, affect that too?

And I request that you answer my question, does it matter to you if your Jesus never really existed and that you really aren't saved that you have no "heaven" to go to, that you are indeed only stuck with living a charitable life here on this one and only earth?  You see, I don't believe that you are only concerned with living a selfless charitable life in that I suspect you don't really follow what Jesus said, that you should give up all you have and follow him.  
Site a modern source in which christians use the bible to kill people. Mine is pretty heavy, but don't think so.
The answer for your question concerning Romans 9 is clearly stated within it. You were referring to the " vessels of wrath " correct?
I'll be happy to answer your question. What you say does not matter to me at all, because it is a lie.
You cannot provide concrete proof of it. Such a statement is an insult to your intelligence.
Do you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh? Assuming He didn't, how could
such an imaginary character gain so much fame and reverence? Paul the apostle had a prophecy about this
in Romans no less. He said that the knowledge and fame of Him and his name would cover the entire earth,
it is indeed evident that it came to pass. Not bad for a fairy tale huh?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Aaron123 on September 24, 2010, 11:48:12 PM
Do you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh? Assuming He didn't, how could
such an imaginary character gain so much fame and reverence? Paul the apostle had a prophecy about this
in Romans no less. He said that the knowledge and fame of Him and his name would cover the entire earth,
it is indeed evident that it came to pass. Not bad for a fairy tale huh?

Really, this is your argument?  Because Jesus is famous and revered, he must have been a real person?  Do you know how many fictional characters are famous and revered?  Harry Potter, Superman, Batman, Optimus Prime... the list goes on and on.

And this is without getting into all the thousands of other gods that had(and have) millions (in some cases, billions) of followers.  They all thought their gods were real, just as you think their gods were imaginary.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 24, 2010, 11:50:55 PM

Your own reply acknowledges the danger of taking the text of the collection of myths that is the bible literally.

Which is exactly my point. There is nothing extreme in my assessment that people who take the violence, rhetoric, hatefulness and such from the bible literally show me that they have a cruel and inhumane heart.
I think I sense a bit of hypocrisy here because minus the violence, the other two have belonged to you. Site me a modern example in which christians are violent.[/quote]
So what does it matter if people accept the "love" parts literally, if they also accept as literal that it's A-Okay to viciously murder innocent babies in a horrible death by drowning, or by bashing their heads against rocks, because their parents were bad or of the "wrong" faith, or that it was not only okay to rape the women and children of your enemies, but that your god-being also expected it of you![/quote] Is this a reference to the old testament?? If so, please refer me to the scripture.[/quote]
If someone accepts the entire book as literal, to me that's what they are accepting and that, to me, is a cruel and inhumane heart.
[/quote] If you witnessed a young child get struck by a car and one stands by and says "Damn kid shouldn't have been playing near the road", that is cruel and inhumane. To associate christianity or the belief in the
bible with these words is extreme and without proper reason.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 24, 2010, 11:53:19 PM
I messed up the post to you Gimpy, sorry
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 24, 2010, 11:57:04 PM
Do you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh? Assuming He didn't, how could
such an imaginary character gain so much fame and reverence? Paul the apostle had a prophecy about this
in Romans no less. He said that the knowledge and fame of Him and his name would cover the entire earth,
it is indeed evident that it came to pass. Not bad for a fairy tale huh?

Really, this is your argument?  Because Jesus is famous and revered, he must have been a real person?  Do you know how many fictional characters are famous and revered?  Harry Potter, Superman, Batman, Optimus Prime... the list goes on and on.

And this is without getting into all the thousands of other gods that had(and have) millions (in some cases, billions) of followers.  They all thought their gods were real, just as you think their gods were imaginary.
They may be known and revered with you transformer boy, but a person in China might not know who the heck your talking about. Everyone knows who Jesus is.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Emily on September 25, 2010, 12:09:45 AM
They may be known and revered with you transformer boy, but a person in China might not know who the heck your talking about. Everyone knows who Jesus is.

Except when jesus "lived" his life story was confined to a tiny section in the middle east. Seriously, this is your argument: appeal to popularity?!?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Aaron123 on September 25, 2010, 12:18:40 AM
They may be known and revered with you transformer boy, but a person in China might not know who the heck your talking about. Everyone knows who Jesus is.

As Emily said; this is your arguement?  An appeal to popularity?  Can I take it then, that if everyone in the world knew who Harry Potter is, that it would mean that Harry Potter was a real person?  Same with Optimus Prime?

I'm also curious where you get off saying "EVERYONE knows who Jesus is".  Does that includes isolated tribes and other people that lives in remote regions?


Incidentally, many transformers toys(and other toylines, transforming or otherwise) are made, and have been made in China, so there's a fair chance people in China do know about Batman, Harry Potter, etc.


Just checked:

Harry Potter books have several translations in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_in_translation

There are Transformers fans in China.
http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/hasbro-news-chinas-transformers-cybertron-con/19417/

DVDS of Superman in China
http://www.superherohype.com/features/articles/91927-china-get-superman-returns-dvd-2-months-early

Can buy Batman from China:
http://www.china-direct-buy.com/v/4/product_detail/7369217/Batman_Complete_Series_DVD_Boxset.html
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 25, 2010, 01:09:37 AM
Really, this is your argument?  Because Jesus is famous and revered, he must have been a real person?  Do you know how many fictional characters are famous and revered?  Harry Potter, Superman, Batman, Optimus Prime... the list goes on and on.

And this is without getting into all the thousands of other gods that had(and have) millions (in some cases, billions) of followers.  They all thought their gods were real, just as you think their gods were imaginary.
They may be known and revered with you transformer boy, but a person in China might not know who the heck your talking about. Everyone knows who Jesus is.

Protestantson, did you miss the bit in bold, or deliberately ignore it because you had no answer?  Pre-CE, "everyone" in the Roman world knew about - and revered - Zeus, Apollo, et al.  I presume you are not suggesting in any way that Zeus is real? 

"Do you mean to tell me that Zeus did not come in the flesh? Assuming He didn't, how could
such an imaginary character gain so much fame and reverence?"
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 25, 2010, 07:14:55 AM
I think I sense a bit of hypocrisy here because minus the violence, the other two have belonged to you. Site me a modern example in which christians are violent.

Nope. The hypocrisy and much much more is all in your holy book. That you and others choose to ignore those parts also speaks to your ability to try to excuse away that nature of your own god-being as described in your own book about it.

Modern-day examples? Oh, little things, like the people who have killed doctors who perform abortions and who blow up health clinics.

There are entire feuding sects in Africa literally chopping each other up with machetes and raping each other.

Bosnia-Herzegovinia. The Serbs weren't atheists. The majority of Serbs are christian.

And then on smaller scales of hate, oh there are the white supremist organizations that use "scripture" to justify their racism and goal of "purity" cleansing.

And there are so many more, tucked away all over the world, from individual acts of atrocity to entire groups of it, justified by the Holy Rule BookTM.

Yes, there is plenty on which to base the presumption of cruel and inhumane.



Is this a reference to the old testament?? If so, please refer me to the scripture.


Sir, there are many. It is rife with such material, and it's all been cited (not sited) on this site (not cite) before. Do a forum search. Or have you not actually read the collection of fairy tales you're trying to defend.


If you witnessed a young child get struck by a car and one stands by and says "Damn kid shouldn't have been playing near the road", that is cruel and inhumane. To associate christianity or the belief in the
bible with these words is extreme and without proper reason.

Not at all, there are numerous examples of your god-being doing just that, again, in your own holy book about it.

And have you not turned on a television or read a newspaper? The so-called "religious right" here in the United States is a prime example of that sort of mentality and "extreme" harshness and inhumane thought process.

Go to any newspaper forum on the internet and look at the comments posted on stories like health care reform or the programs designed recently to help homeowners modify their mortgages so they can stay in their homes.

A VAST majority of the most hateful and empathy bereft comments AGAINST both come from self-proclaimed christians!

Covering your eyes and ears, and saying "lalalalalala I can't hear you -- it isn't true," isn't a good way to approach reality.


EDITED TO FIX QUOTING AND ADD MATERIAL I CUT MYSELF OFF OF ACCIDENTALLY.

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: monkeymind on September 25, 2010, 07:17:01 AM
Quote
Site me a modern example in which christians are violent.

Do you mean.... like the ones in Uganda debating weather to give life imprisonment or the death penalty for homosexual acts (with the help of US Christians)?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34331632/ns/world_news-africa/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34331632/ns/world_news-africa/)

like the ones torturing and burning children as witches in Nigeria?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver)
I left out links to videos actually showing the burning of children (Often by their parents at the direction of their pastors).

...or like the ones in Somalia that are stoning adulterers?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/somalia_stoning_horror_a000UGWmvaYikkYf7NjxKL (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/somalia_stoning_horror_a000UGWmvaYikkYf7NjxKL)

Or, like the ones in the US that shoot Doctors or bomb abortion clinics?
Need I provide a link?

Or, like the ones that pray for their daughter, but do not get her needed medical attention? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html)

Or, how about all of these? http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/harmarchive.html (http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/harmarchive.html)

Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: hickdive on September 25, 2010, 08:56:55 AM
Quote
Site me a modern example in which christians are violent.

Do you mean....

Don't forget Rwanda;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Rwanda#1994_Genocide
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 26, 2010, 12:58:15 AM
.
Sir, there are many. It is rife with such material, and it's all been cited (not sited) on this site (not cite) before. Do a forum search. Or have you not actually read the collection of fairy tales you're trying to defend.

First off, I guess I kinda assumed that you would have one of these "contradictions" off hand, seeing as you are so knowledgeable of them. Sorry, not gonna waste my time, I wanted one from YOU.
Secondly, how could you possibly equate isolated incidents of religious extremism with Christianity as a whole?
It is obvious that these people are misguided by the darkness that is within their own hearts. Love has no place with hate, therefore they are extremist, and do not hold true to the teachings of Christ. I do not condone this, neither are they justified in my eyes, nor in God's eyes. Having willfully disobeyed his greatest
commandment, which is to love one another. They have judged others, therefore they will be judged.
I find such a comparison to Christianity in totality to be partial, judgmental, and discriminant.
Example: Some American troops have been accused of war crimes of inhumane acts, therefore, All U.S.
troops are inhumane, cruel people. An assumption like this is ignorance in its purest form. Because we have
only facts based on the "some". When all the facts are gathered, we come to the conclusion, that most men
and woman of the service have served honourably, holding true to the oath they have taken. The stated
example holds true in the case of the MAJORITY of true Christians.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 26, 2010, 01:15:30 AM
.....the MAJORITY of true Christians.

Looking forward to the day when everyone agrees what a "True Christian" is.

You've come up with your interpretation (backed by scripture), they've come up with theirs (also backed by scripture).  They say they are True Christians, you say YOU are a True Christian.

Explain how we - on the outside - can tell.  NOT by quoting scripture (they can do that too), but by detailing exactly how you know your interpretation is correct.

And,while you're about it, how about answering my question about Zeus?  Or are True Christians unable to admit it when they've made an error?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 26, 2010, 09:43:32 AM
It is obvious that these people are misguided by the darkness that is within their own hearts. Love has no place with hate, therefore they are extremist, and do not hold true to the teachings of Christ. I do not condone this, neither are they justified in my eyes, nor in God's eyes.

Obviously to WHOM? THEY wholly believe they are in line with their god's teachings.

Though some may be "isolated" a great many, as others have pointed out to you, are not.

And, for the record, extremist or NOT, it still counts as modern examples.

But we could go back to slavery, if you like, is that modern enough for you?

Or back to the footprint of Christian Europe on the aboriginals in the New World, is that modern enough?

Or the Spanish Inquisition. .. granted a while back, but where do you draw the line? Yesterday?

If you want to explore the many contradictions in the bible, I direct you to this child-forum here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?board=35.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?board=35.0)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Operator_020 on September 26, 2010, 10:19:45 AM
protestantson,

I would have fixed your quotes in your last post, but I cannot tell where the quote ends and your response begins.  Please fix them, since you would know better than I. 

Thanks.
020
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 27, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
Site a modern source in which christians use the bible to kill people. Mine is pretty heavy, but don't think so.
I do enjoy it when a Christian wants to declare a statute of limitations on the Bible.  But you want a "modern source", I'm happy to give more than one to you.  Matthew Shepard, George Tiller, Robert Sanderson, Shannon Lowey, Lee Ann Nichols, various massacres of Native Americans as Christians decided that North America was to be "theirs", etc.  I can go on, shall I?   

Quote
The answer for your question concerning Romans 9 is clearly stated within it. You were referring to the " vessels of wrath " correct?
Ah, the usual claims that something is "clearly stated" when it seems that the Christian can't answer on his own and must hope that anyone questioning him will believe what he claims with no questions.  Sorry, but where is an answer to my question "BTW, if you want to say free will, that's fine but consider, why was there constant interference by god in the Bible and how does that not affect free will and how does Romans 9, where it says God creates some people just to be destroyed, affect that too?" clearly stated within Romans 9.  Please do point it out.


Quote
I'll be happy to answer your question. What you say does not matter to me at all, because it is a lie.
You want to call me a liar?  Okay, show me where I've lied. 

Quote
You cannot provide concrete proof of it. Such a statement is an insult to your intelligence.
You made the claim that "really not important how you or I came to our conclusions when interpreting the scripture at hand". IF this is what you really feel, then why so offended when I ask *if* it truly isn't important, does it matter to you if your Jesus never really existed and that you really aren't saved that you have no "heaven" to go to, that you are indeed only stuck with living a charitable life here on this one and only earth?  and thanks for the veiled insult.  I see nothing about my question to be insulting to my intelligence at all since there is no evidence of your Jesus or God.  You have no concrete proof of your claims.  I can at least point to the total dearth of evidence for your myths. 

Quote
Do you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh? Assuming He didn't, how could
such an imaginary character gain so much fame and reverence?
How could Krishna? How could Ameratsu?  How could any deity that has been claimed to have existed?  Humans create deities to explain the world and they try to control their world by placating these supposed entities.  Humans have evolved to see "intent" behind things because that helps us interact, but it gets misplaced when we assume intent behind natural disasters, etc. 

Quote
Paul the apostle had a prophecy about this in Romans no less. He said that the knowledge and fame of Him and his name would cover the entire earth, it is indeed evident that it came to pass. Not bad for a fairy tale huh?

I'm not quite sure where it says in Romans where knowledge and fame of god/jesus would cover the entire earth.  But for Paul, who supposedly traveled around quite a bit in the "known world" of the Roman Empire, this claim isn't much and he even claims that the faith of the Romans is "8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world." Really, in China? In North America? It's a good guess based on his own experiences, but limited by those too.  No need for any magical prophecying at all.  Paul wanted to claim something for his religion that was impressive.  And thought it was already happening, not to happen in some future time.

I do wonder about such "prophecies" and how Christians pick and choose them.  let's look at another prophecy from Paul "Romans 13:11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed."  And hmmm, how long has it been now?  over 2000 years.  So much for being "nearer". I do enjoy your claim that "everyone knows who Jesus is" when your fellow Christians often claim that they don't and that's why there is no "end times" nonsense happening.   

Finally, it doesn't suprise me at all that we've ended up at the whine of "but but, those aren't TrueChristianstm" when someone points out your violent vile brethern. 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 28, 2010, 07:39:01 AM
.....the MAJORITY of true Christians.

Looking forward to the day when everyone agrees what a "True Christian" is.

Oh everyone agree on a definition it is "Any Christian that has the same morality and theology as I do" that is the exact definition that seem universal  ;)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 28, 2010, 11:15:10 PM
Quote
I do wonder about such "prophecies" and how Christians pick and choose them.  let's look at another prophecy from Paul "Romans 13:11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed."  And hmmm, how long has it been now?  over 2000 years.  So much for being "nearer". I do enjoy your claim that "everyone knows who Jesus is" when your fellow Christians often claim that they don't and that's why there is no "end times" nonsense happening.   
Finally, it doesn't suprise me at all that we've ended up at the whine of "but but, those aren't TrueChristianstm" when someone points out your violent vile brethern. 
Romans 13:11 Is not so much prophetic, as it is an exhortation, or wake up call. It is clear who Paul is speaking to- those who slumber. I will leave it to you to determine what kind of slumber he speaks of.
Not whining neither, it is the truth. I previously explained the concept of ignorance, obviously no one paid attention to that.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 28, 2010, 11:28:29 PM
.....the MAJORITY of true Christians.

Looking forward to the day when everyone agrees what a "True Christian" is.

You've come up with your interpretation (backed by scripture), they've come up with theirs (also backed by scripture).  They say they are True Christians, you say YOU are a True Christian.

Explain how we - on the outside - can tell.  NOT by quoting scripture (they can do that too), but by detailing exactly how you know your interpretation is correct.

And,while you're about it, how about answering my question about Zeus?  Or are True Christians unable to admit it when they've made an error?
I have made no error, I actually find it funny that you would liken zeus to the Almighty God.
Why should I have to explain it? I think you know very well that there cannot be any comparison. I feel that if I did, especially here, it would be open to mockery, and ridicule. And to give you occasion to do
so would not be wise, especially, if rather than seeking understanding, all you seek to do is mock. Which is evident.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 28, 2010, 11:28:57 PM
Quote
I do wonder about such "prophecies" and how Christians pick and choose them.  let's look at another prophecy from Paul "Romans 13:11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed."  And hmmm, how long has it been now?  over 2000 years.  So much for being "nearer". I do enjoy your claim that "everyone knows who Jesus is" when your fellow Christians often claim that they don't and that's why there is no "end times" nonsense happening.  
Finally, it doesn't suprise me at all that we've ended up at the whine of "but but, those aren't TrueChristianstm" when someone points out your violent vile brethern.  
Romans 13:11 Is not so much prophetic, as it is an exhortation, or wake up call. It is clear who Paul is speaking to- those who slumber. I will leave it to you to determine what kind of slumber he speaks of.
Not whining neither, it is the truth. I previously explained the concept of ignorance, obviously no one paid attention to that.

I seldom can figure out your posts when your quotes are all screwed up.


Edited because the material quoted fucked up MY quotes too! DOH!
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 28, 2010, 11:32:48 PM
Quote
I do wonder about such "prophecies" and how Christians pick and choose them.  let's look at another prophecy from Paul "Romans 13:11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed."  And hmmm, how long has it been now?  over 2000 years.  So much for being "nearer". I do enjoy your claim that "everyone knows who Jesus is" when your fellow Christians often claim that they don't and that's why there is no "end times" nonsense happening.   
Finally, it doesn't suprise me at all that we've ended up at the whine of "but but, those aren't TrueChristianstm" when someone points out your violent vile brethern. 
Romans 13:11 Is not so much prophetic, as it is an exhortation, or wake up call. It is clear who Paul is speaking to- those who slumber. I will leave it to you to determine what kind of slumber he speaks of.
Not whining neither, it is the truth. I previously explained the concept of ignorance, obviously no one paid attention to that.


I seldom can figure out your posts when your quotes are all screwed up.
Sorry Gimpster! Still trying to figure it out. I just scanned through the posting instructions.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Aaron123 on September 28, 2010, 11:35:30 PM
I have made no error, I actually find it funny that you would liken zeus to the Almighty God.

First, prove that it is your god that exists, and not Zeus.  Otherwise, the statement is indistinguishable from " I actually find it funny that you would liken yahweh to the Almighty Zeus."


Quote
Why should I have to explain it? I think you know very well that there cannot be any comparison. I feel that if I did, especially here, it would be open to mockery, and ridicule. And to give you occasion to do so would not be wise, especially, if rather than seeking understanding, all you seek to do is mock. Which is evident.

So you won't back up your assessments?  That tells us you have nothing to back it up with.   :shrug
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 28, 2010, 11:40:37 PM
I have made no error, I actually find it funny that you would liken zeus to the Almighty God.

First, prove that it is your god that exists, and not Zeus.  Otherwise, the statement is indistinguishable from " I actually find it funny that you would liken yahweh to the Almighty Zeus."


Quote
Why should I have to explain it? I think you know very well that there cannot be any comparison. I feel that if I did, especially here, it would be open to mockery, and ridicule. And to give you occasion to do so would not be wise, especially, if rather than seeking understanding, all you seek to do is mock. Which is evident.

So you won't back up your assessments?  That tells us you have nothing to back it up with.   :shrug
The old "prove it" thing is pretty popular with you all. You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof
is on the believer, it cannot be proven, however, if one is already inclined not to. Looks like we got a stalemate huh :shrug
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Aaron123 on September 28, 2010, 11:45:33 PM
The old "prove it" thing is pretty popular with you all. You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof
is on the believer, it cannot be proven, however, if one is already inclined not to. Looks like we got a stalemate huh :shrug

So wait; even though you're aware that the burden of proof is on you, you refuse to provide proof because... well, just because?

No wonder then we have a communication problem.  You're aware of what you need to do, yet you won't mearly out of spite.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 28, 2010, 11:54:17 PM
The old "prove it" thing is pretty popular with you all.

As it should be with most people who are subjected to claims of the fantastic.

You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof
is on the believer, it cannot be proven, however, if one is already inclined not to. Looks like we got a stalemate huh :shrug

Was that word salad supposed to approximate a sentence in english that was intended to communicate an actual thought?

I'll give it a shot based on what I THINK you might have said:

"You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof is on the believer. . . "

Okay, so, where is your proof? The burden of proof is on you as you are the believer.

I am the non-believer. I don't believe something. Are you telling me that non-belief requires a positive proof? How does one do that?

So, if I tell you that I have a pink unicorn in my garage, with a magic wand in place of a horn, but it's invisible, you will just have to take my word for it.

And then you tell me, "No, I don't believe you," that you are then required to provide the proof that my invisible magic-wand-horned unicorn does NOT exist?

And then I can't figure out the rest of your statement.

Maybe you're tired?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 28, 2010, 11:55:54 PM
The old "prove it" thing is pretty popular with you all. You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof
is on the believer, it cannot be proven, however, if one is already inclined not to. Looks like we got a stalemate huh :shrug

So wait; even though you're aware that the burden of proof is on you, you refuse to provide proof because... well, just because?

No wonder then we have a communication problem.  You're aware of what you need to do, yet you won't mearly out of spite.
You cannot prove your beliefs neither, so what? Hence the stalemate remark. No spite here brother.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: protestantson on September 29, 2010, 12:04:10 AM
The old "prove it" thing is pretty popular with you all.

As it should be with most people who are subjected to claims of the fantastic.

You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof
is on the believer, it cannot be proven, however, if one is already inclined not to. Looks like we got a stalemate huh :shrug

Was that word salad supposed to approximate a sentence in english that was intended to communicate an actual thought?

I'll give it a shot based on what I THINK you might have said:

"You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof is on the believer. . . "

Okay, so, where is your proof? The burden of proof is on you as you are the believer.

I am the non-believer. I don't believe something. Are you telling me that non-belief requires a positive proof? How does one do that?

So, if I tell you that I have a pink unicorn in my garage, with a magic wand in place of a horn, but it's invisible, you will just have to take my word for it.

And then you tell me, "No, I don't believe you," that you are then required to provide the proof that my invisible magic-wand-horned unicorn does NOT exist?

And then I can't figure out the rest of your statement.

Maybe you're tired?
Probably tired Gimp. 14 hours a day 6 days a week does me in. Who am I to complain though?
There are greater sorrows in life right? Some people are afflicted with things and yet they push through it.
I know this 8 yr old girl, she has brain cancer. I look at her, and despite her affliction, she has more life in her eyes than most people walking the streets. If believing in that "pink unicorn" helps her to approach
death with no fear, and gives her a hope that casts all her cares away, why would someone take that away from her??
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: lotanddaughters on September 29, 2010, 12:20:20 AM
I have made no error, I actually find it funny that you would liken zeus to the Almighty God.
Why should I have to explain it? I think you know very well that there cannot be any comparison. I feel that if I did, especially here, it would be open to mockery, and ridicule. And to give you occasion to do
so would not be wise, especially, if rather than seeking understanding, all you seek to do is mock. Which is evident.

Christian mythology is a polytheistic mythology as is Greek mythology. Christian polytheism tries to disguise itself as monotheistic.

There are many polytheistic myths that have one or more gods that are more powerful than the other gods of that particular myth. These myths also have one or more gods that created some or all of the other gods of that myth. Christianity is also one of these myths. The difference is that Christianity uses words like "angel" to refer to less-powerful gods. Christianity also never refers to Satan as a "god". Calling something by a different name does not change its properties.

If someone mentioned Zeus to Constantine the Great at just the right moment of his life, the Christian myth might have fallen by the wayside, or it might have had to linger and spread slowly like Judaism.

You should study the evolution of Christianity(including the evolution of the Old Testament).

You should also realize that where and when you were born best determines what myth you will believe in.

People who become wise and shed their myths see eye to eye with others who have also become wise, even if they come from different mythological beliefs.

EDIT: deleted a comma(,)
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Aaron123 on September 29, 2010, 01:18:33 AM
You cannot prove your beliefs neither, so what? Hence the stalemate remark. No spite here brother.

How is a non-belief in itself, a belief?  Is that the same as saying that "OFF" is a tv channel?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 29, 2010, 04:27:28 AM
I have made no error, I actually find it funny that you would liken zeus to the Almighty God.
Why should I have to explain it? I think you know very well that there cannot be any comparison.

As has been said, I find it funny you compare the carpenter's son to the almighty Zeus.

Your "point" was:

Do you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh? Assuming He didn't, how could
such an imaginary character gain so much fame and reverence?

...that something ONLY gains fame and reverence if they really existed in the flesh.

Zeus was worshipped throughout the Roman World for centuries.  Osiris was worshipped throughout the Egyptian Kingdoms for even longer.  Hence my question to YOU:

"Do you mean to tell me that Zeus did not come in the flesh? Assuming He didn't, how could
such an imaginary character gain so much fame and reverence?"

I'm presuming you will claim that there never really was a god called Zeus or Osiris?  Given that both of them had widespread fame and reverence, how DO you account for that?

Or will you admit that - in the right circumstances - it can be the case that a completely fictional creature can end up being worshipped and treated as real by vast numbers of people?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: plethora on September 29, 2010, 04:28:46 AM
I know this 8 yr old girl, she has brain cancer. I look at her, and despite her affliction, she has more life in her eyes than most people walking the streets. If believing in that "pink unicorn" helps her to approach
death with no fear, and gives her a hope that casts all her cares away, why would someone take that away from her??

This sounds to me like an addmittance that your beliefs are really a fantasy security blanket for coping with reality (which they are).

Making something up that gives consolation to a terminally ill child is something I can understand to a degree... but I think it's unnecessary. You are also wrong to think that this child will approach death with no fear. That's bullshit. Everybody, assuming they are mentally sound, is afraid of arriving at the moment of their death no matter how much they believe in god and heaven. It's an inescapable natural instinct.

My daughter is nearly 8 years old. She is an atheist by default (i.e. she was never indoctrinated into a religion as both her parents are atheists). She knows that when we die, we simply cease to exist and she understands her own mortality.

She assumes she will die many years from now as an old lady... long after her parents have died. She told me the other day that the only thing she fears about death is pain. She says she wants to die in her sleep so she won't notice. She is not concerned at all about not existing after her death or anything that happens after she dies.

I told her not to worry because we have hospitals and doctors that can take away any pain if necessary. I cited her grandmother (who died) as an example. That put her mind to rest.

Did I stretch the truth about doctors making death painless in all scenarios? Yeah I probably did... but she is a child after all.

This is a child who copes with reality a lot better than some adults and is not any more afraid than a kid who believes in god and heaven. She will grow up with no dependencies on emotional security blankets. Is it really necessary to make up a fanstasy for people to overcome their fears? I think not.

So at best, your religion is no better than a nice little fairy tale and it does not achieve any better results.

At worst, it makes people believe they are sinful, worthless, deserving of hell and have to kiss the man in the sky's ass on their knees throughout their entire lives to try and get into heaven... a heaven that doesn't exist. What a waste of life.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 29, 2010, 04:37:20 AM
I know this 8 yr old girl, she has brain cancer. I look at her, and despite her affliction, she has more life in her eyes than most people walking the streets. If believing in that "pink unicorn" helps her to approach
death with no fear, and gives her a hope that casts all her cares away, why would someone take that away from her??

What if that girl grows up....and her belief in the pink unicorn (and its wishes and desires) cause her to treat men as second class citizens?  If she believes the pink unicorn is happy for certain groups to be treated less favourably - to be denied rights enjoyed by others - and determinedly acts to push the pink unicorn's agenda?

What if, while one part of her (ridiculous) faith in the invisible pink unicorn gives her comfort, that same faith causes her to act against the needs of millions of her fellow humans?  Where do YOU strike the balance between a ridiculous faith that gives comfort to some, but negatively affects others?
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 29, 2010, 07:36:30 AM
You cannot prove your beliefs neither, so what? Hence the stalemate remark. No spite here brother.



What "belief" do we need to "prove"?

NOT believing in something is not a belief. It's the absence of a belief.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 29, 2010, 08:44:42 AM
The old "prove it" thing is pretty popular with you all. You prove your beliefs. The burden of proof
is on the believer, it cannot be proven, however, if one is already inclined not to. Looks like we got a stalemate huh :shrug

So wait; even though you're aware that the burden of proof is on you, you refuse to provide proof because... well, just because?

No wonder then we have a communication problem.  You're aware of what you need to do, yet you won't mearly out of spite.

I think that it isn't "spite" so much as ignorance. Rember sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.

And the whole flipping the burden of proof is an old tactic, why else would have The Flying Spaghetti Monster, the invisible pink unicorn, and Russel's Teapot, and Dragon in my Garage scenarios invented but to expose the ludicrousness of the old tactic that most theists use of flipping the burden of proof. A claim of the existence of something fantastic has the burden of proof, and it is not the equivalent of the claim that such a fantastic thing does not exist. No one could, in all honesty, Take the Claims of a Dragon in my Garage as equal to the claim you do not have a dragon in your garage.



Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: velkyn on September 29, 2010, 09:17:37 AM
Romans 13:11 Is not so much prophetic, as it is an exhortation, or wake up call. It is clear who Paul is speaking to- those who slumber. I will leave it to you to determine what kind of slumber he speaks of.
Not whining neither, it is the truth. I previously explained the concept of ignorance, obviously no one paid attention to that.

and here we go with the Christain who claims that they and they alone know what God "really meant".   and sorry, the truth isn't what you want to claim, it's what you can support. And it is whining since none of you can show that your claims of what God "really meant" are any more viable than the next. You all want to be the only ones who have it "right".  

Let's look at the verses from Romans 13.

Quote
11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
 Paul is making a prediction, the "night is nearly over, the day is almost here" and that the salvation is "nearer now" then what they initially thought.  And the slumbering is those who are putting off doing what Paul thinks is necessary in light of his prediction.  

as for your glurge about the little girl who has cancer, you've claimed that believing in your myths takes away fear of death. Really?  Why are Christians the ones most desiring care to extend their lives http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/health/research/18faith.html?  Why do Christians cry at funerals? Religion does not help anyone cast their cares away. It only adds to them, the fears that you aren't satisfying your god, that you will be sent to hell, that your loved ones if they dont' believe like you (because you're sure you're going to heaven aren't you) will be eternally tortured.  

Of course, you'll desperately avoid acknowleging that Zeus was famous and worshipped and evidently not existent, just like your god seems to be. We have no more evidence that your god exists than we do that Zeus did.  If you feel differently, then you'll provide evidence of your claims.  Just to be clear, using the evidence we have, we can demonstrate that your god is non-existent just like any other god.  If you wish to counter this, provide your evidence. 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Gimpy on September 29, 2010, 10:01:30 AM
Of course, you'll desperately avoid acknowleging that Zeus was famous and worshipped and evidently not existent, just like your god seems to be. We have no more evidence that your god exists than we do that Zeus did.  If you feel differently, then you'll provide evidence of your claims.  Just to be clear, using the evidence we have, we can demonstrate that your god is non-existent just like any other god.  If you wish to counter this, provide your evidence. 

I always find this interesting. We have the benefit of hindsight in reading all the things that people believed about ancient "gods" and we read them with curiosity with a touch of entertainment.

But we forget that those "gods" were as "real" to the vast numbers of people who believed in them as bible god or allah or vishnu is to the people who believe in them today.

Those "gods" were so real, that a tremendous amount of energy and resources went into building great monuments and preserving their stories.

Look at all the tombs in egypt that depict and describe the egyptian gods. Look at all the artifacts today from greece. Even the mayans and atzecs left tremendous relics and items behind depicting their god-beliefs.

These weren't just "stories" and quaint myths to them. These were their reality. And these god-beings were an integral part of everyday life for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

So I find it hilarious when today's theists pooh-pooh Zeus or Odin . . . or Thor or Ra. . .
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 30, 2010, 09:29:44 AM
.....the MAJORITY of true Christians.

Looking forward to the day when everyone agrees what a "True Christian" is.

You've come up with your interpretation (backed by scripture), they've come up with theirs (also backed by scripture).  They say they are True Christians, you say YOU are a True Christian.

Explain how we - on the outside - can tell.  NOT by quoting scripture (they can do that too), but by detailing exactly how you know your interpretation is correct.

And,while you're about it, how about answering my question about Zeus?  Or are True Christians unable to admit it when they've made an error?

As soon as I saw "Cite a Modern day example," I knew, just knew, that a 'No true Scottsman' was going to happen soon. Godbots are so predictable.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 30, 2010, 09:37:28 AM

These weren't just "stories" and quaint myths to them. These were their reality. And these god-beings were an integral part of everyday life for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

So I find it hilarious when today's theists pooh-pooh Zeus or Odin . . . or Thor or Ra. . .

or say "How could we even think to make a comparison." The comparison is evident as that of language. Lauguage arose and fell with the cultures that used them, often they didn't "die" but in a time of turmoil transformed into another launguage thats around today, often mixing bits of other languages nearby. Christianity looks just like a jewish heresy, mixed in with some Plantonic metaphysics, and Eygyptian mysticism.

Look at the time and location it arose in....what a shock.  :o

 
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: luisveras on December 09, 2010, 01:26:52 AM
What about when he said "Sell your possessions and give to the poor." (Luke 12:33)
Telling people to sell their possessions and give to the poor sounds like excellent advice to me.  Christians all over the world follow this advice all the time.

Actually, Christians all over the world follow their own interpretation of this advice.

By the way, if your god tells you to do something, it's not 'advice', it's an order, or else you'll go to hell.
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Operator_020 on December 09, 2010, 11:28:06 AM
Hi luisveras,

Welcome to our forum.  The post you have replied to is three months old.  I am not even certain whether AlexBP even participates here anymore.  His last log-in was October 13, so I doubt he will respond. 

In the future, please restrict your posting to more current threads. Or, if the topic is just too interesting for you to not discuss, start a new thread.  Thanks.

Happy posting,
020
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 13, 2010, 07:54:12 PM
LV feel free to post your thoughts in this forum

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16836.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16836.0)

 This forum asks if you would abandon the laws of your country to uphold gods laws
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Agent K-Dog on November 04, 2011, 02:51:25 AM
Sorry Alex BP, but I have to agree with most what everyone else has posted here: Your arguments just don't hold up. And, in some cases make absolutely no sense at all. :-[
Title: Re: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?
Post by: Anfauglir on November 04, 2011, 06:41:43 AM
Sorry Alex BP, but I have to agree with most what everyone else has posted here: Your arguments just don't hold up. And, in some cases make absolutely no sense at all. :-[

Hi K-Dog - welcome to the forum!

Just thought you ought to know....Alex BP has not been back to the forum since February...and this thread was last accessed at the end of 2010!  We call it "thread-necromancy"  ;)  and it's generally considered to be a "naughty thing"!

Looking forward to speaking with you in the future!

P.S. - When you see someone speaking in bold green, it means they are wearing their moderator hat, just so's you know.