whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Biblical Contradictions => Topic started by: One Above All on April 02, 2010, 07:09:33 AM

Title: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 02, 2010, 07:09:33 AM
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?
god (supposedly) never lies, correct?
god says, and i quote (from my mom's bible):

Quote
in the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Gaston on April 02, 2010, 08:40:09 AM
I don't think you can claim that was "lucifer". As far as I know it was just a "serpent". But that's aside from the point.

Adam and Eve didn't die, they just got kicked out of the garden, but they also lost their immortality. If that answers your question.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: GodIsDead on April 02, 2010, 09:29:22 AM
Loss of immortality = death

So technically "he" killed them. Just not with bolts of lightning from the heavens.

Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Nick on April 02, 2010, 09:33:10 AM
Yes, he killed them with old age.  The horror of it all. ;)
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on April 02, 2010, 09:34:17 AM
Kcrady rocked this topic hard some time ago here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=2822.0)
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 02, 2010, 09:44:38 AM
Loss of immortality = death
So technically "he" killed them. Just not with bolts of lightning from the heavens.


but according to my mom's version of the bible, he said they would die THE VERY DAY they ate from the tree
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: GodIsDead on April 02, 2010, 09:50:41 AM
You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

imo: its a bunch of bullshit. But im bored at work so coming up with random discussions is what i'm doing.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 02, 2010, 09:55:04 AM
You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Gordon Freeman on April 02, 2010, 10:02:19 AM
You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?

That explains the hebrew word yome (day). That word usually means a day from sunrise to sunset, but it sometimes can be used for various periods of time. But since Genesis clearly says that sun rose and set, we can conclude it was a 24-hour period of time.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: GodIsDead on April 02, 2010, 10:03:34 AM
you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you. :D

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of shit and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 02, 2010, 10:05:40 AM
That explains the hebrew word yome (day). That word usually means a day from sunrise to sunset, but it sometimes can be used for various periods of time. But since Genesis clearly says that sun rose and set, we can conclude it was a 24-hour period of time.

exactly. and i want to hear how xtians will get out of this one
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 02, 2010, 10:08:44 AM
you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you. :D

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of shit and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".

i know, asking a xtian to give a rational comment is like asking someone to build a completely functional super computer using only a rock
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Gordon Freeman on April 02, 2010, 11:38:25 AM
you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you. :D

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of s**t and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".

i know, asking a xtian to give a rational comment is like asking someone to build a completely functional super computer using only a rock

Ha, ha, this one is great. Your comments (from both of you) could be used in many occasions (-:
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 06, 2010, 05:36:29 AM
just like i thought, xtians can't stand lucifer telling the truth while their supposedly perfect god lies through his teeth/ass/whatever is on his face
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Dominic on April 06, 2010, 06:57:11 AM

The Bible is not meant to be read literally.  It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.
 
When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

This analysis regarding the self also demonstrates the inherent connection between the major Western and Eastern religious traditions.

Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 06, 2010, 07:14:03 AM
The Bible is not meant to be read literally.

then the 10 commandments are metaphorical a well

It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

the bible is supposed to be god's book. it is written. and the church hides behind excuses like faith, mistranslations, metaphors etc


Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.

but isnt man supposed to have been born already with free will?
 

When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

there was no selfishness. they did not know that what they were doing was wrong

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

prove a soul exists

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

sorry but if the bible is truly a metaphorical book how do you know that THIS is the correct interpretation of the bible?

This analysis regarding the self also demonstrates the inherent connection between the major Western and Eastern religious traditions.

all religions are based on the same so it's not that hard to make a connection
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Dominic on April 21, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
The Bible is not meant to be read literally.

then the 10 commandments are metaphorical a well


The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

Quote

It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

the bible is supposed to be god's book. it is written. and the church hides behind excuses like faith, mistranslations, metaphors etc


Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.

Quote

Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.

but isnt man supposed to have been born already with free will?
 

The analogy described above is not a sudden event.  It is a process which may have taken thousands of years wherby man became what he is today (ie with a knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose).

Quote

When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

there was no selfishness. they did not know that what they were doing was wrong


True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 

Quote

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

prove a soul exists


I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).

Quote

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

sorry but if the bible is truly a metaphorical book how do you know that THIS is the correct interpretation of the bible?


I don't.  It is just the best I have found and explains things more satisfactorily than any other theory that I have heard about.

[I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.]

Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on April 21, 2010, 11:32:12 AM
The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

so first the bible is a metaphor, now it's literal. cherry picking doesnt work unless you can prove that specific parts of the bible are X or Y or Z and that they mean EXACTLY what you think they mean

Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.

which church exactly? tell me, which of the ~40000 christian denominations is the real one and how do you know that it's the real one?

The analogy described above is not a sudden event.  It is a process which may have taken thousands of years wherby man became what he is today (ie with a knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose).

so adam and eve lived for THOUSANDS of years and yet after they were kicked out of eden, eve still was able to make two kids?
amazing. if you're gonna ask "do you know what an analogy is?" then first prove to me that it IS an analogy and that it means EXACTLY what you think it means

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved.

so god didnt care that they didnt know that what they were doing was wrong because since they didnt know good or evil, they couldnt know that not following what god says was bad

I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).

consciousness is one thing, soul is another. supposedly the soul sticks around forever after the person's brain stops working. consciousness does not

I don't.  It is just the best I have found and explains things more satisfactorily than any other theory that I have heard about.

"best I have found" means you didnt think for yourself, you just went with someone else's ideas
also, here's a more satisfactory explanation which seems to be the explanation for everything in the theist world: godditit

[I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.]

even IF that is true, how can you distinguish between all the different parts? and how can you be sure that the allegories/metaphors/analogies etc mean EXACTLY what you think it does?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Gordon Freeman on April 21, 2010, 12:10:54 PM

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 


So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Gimpy on April 21, 2010, 12:21:57 PM

The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.


Humans existed for thousands upon thousands of years without the 10 commandments and figured out just fine how to live with each other.

It had nothing to do with a godbeing, and everything to do with humans being social animals and finding ways, culturally and socially, to advance the species.

In fact, the truth is that the core "be good" message from the bible -- treat others as you would want others to treat you -- was a main belief long before biblegod ever existed in the superstitious collection of writings that you call the bible.

But for the sake of argument, do you really think that, left to their own devices, groups of people would demand that a single god be worshiped, that no other gods be allowed to exist, that people not be allowed to make "idols" (representations of their god), or that they not take their god's name in vain, and that they must keep one day of the week devoted only to their god?

That's almost half of the Big Ten there.

ALL the others fall under the "golden rule" (with the exception of honor your parents), which, again, existed for eons before biblegod ever was dreamt of.

And I have issues with the honor you parents one as a COMMANDMENT anyway.

As we can see, in many cases, lots more than we like to believe is possible, honoring your parents when they are abusers or worse is just plain sick. The commandment doesn't make exceptions, apparently, so where is the sense in that?

Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on April 21, 2010, 02:30:28 PM
The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.
No, they are rules for one society that believed in one certain jealous god.  You make claims based on your desire but not on any facts.  How do you know that people would rediscover your particular god?  You don't. I am always amused that the first 10 are always spec'ed out by Christians when they ignore the rest, also all supposedly by their god and all meant for the same people.
Quote
Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.
Hmmm, how is the bible subject to the Church when the Church depends on the bible for its existence and meaning? 
Quote
I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).
which ends at the death of the body.  So your attempt to claim that a "soul" exists past this makes no sense. 
Quote
I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.
and no Christian can agree on what the "right" way to divide it is.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Nam on April 21, 2010, 04:23:28 PM
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?

To most (or all) Christians the snake in Genesis is either the Devil or Lucifer. However, they also believe that the Devil and Lucifer are the same being; and that's never made clear either.

-Nam
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Dominic on April 22, 2010, 10:46:56 AM


True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 


So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?


Gordon,

That is a very good question.

Firstly I should mention that I have described earlier in this thread that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical.  The occurence it describes (ie humans first identifying as individual selves) could have taken thousands of years or more.

Having said that, I think that your question can be answered similarly for either the story or for the truth it depicts.

ie 'Adam and Eve' were forgiven.  But 'they' had changed the nature of human existence by their action.  They had actualised a potential which changed the very nature of experience for them-selves and for their offspring.  Their action created a new state of existence for humans once they believed in a personal self.  And this belief is passed on to children (belief in an individual self).


Forgiveness is also very interesting -

- Firstly they were forgiven in the story by continuing their lives though much changed

- Secondly they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later (this needs a lot of clarification which won't be done here and now but it involves the perfect sacrifice ie the Self-lessness of unconditional love reversing the actions of the original Self-ishness of Adam and Eve)

- Thirdy they were forgiven because their 'sin' actually led to a greater potential for the human race (in other words their metaphorical 'sin' was in fact necessary and essential for humanity).  A fall needed to occur before a greater rising up to a new level could be achieved for mankind.


This needs more work I know but I think this begins to open up the deeper significance of the Eden allegory.  This is something that hasn't yet been tackled deeply by many Christian writers as far as I know.   That is probably because it relates to the very nature of being human which is not the easiest subject.

Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Goldielocks on April 22, 2010, 05:53:35 PM

Quote:
"exactly. and i want to hear how xtians will get out of this one"


I'm not sure if anyone responded to the original question. Too much babbling by everyone...

Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Gordon Freeman on April 23, 2010, 12:31:28 AM


True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 


So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?


Gordon,

That is a very good question.

Firstly I should mention that I have described earlier in this thread that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical.  The occurence it describes (ie humans first identifying as individual selves) could have taken thousands of years or more.

Having said that, I think that your question can be answered similarly for either the story or for the truth it depicts.

ie 'Adam and Eve' were forgiven.  But 'they' had changed the nature of human existence by their action.  They had actualised a potential which changed the very nature of experience for them-selves and for their offspring.  Their action created a new state of existence for humans once they believed in a personal self.  And this belief is passed on to children (belief in an individual self).


Forgiveness is also very interesting -

- Firstly they were forgiven in the story by continuing their lives though much changed

- Secondly they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later (this needs a lot of clarification which won't be done here and now but it involves the perfect sacrifice ie the Self-lessness of unconditional love reversing the actions of the original Self-ishness of Adam and Eve)

- Thirdy they were forgiven because their 'sin' actually led to a greater potential for the human race (in other words their metaphorical 'sin' was in fact necessary and essential for humanity).  A fall needed to occur before a greater rising up to a new level could be achieved for mankind.


This needs more work I know but I think this begins to open up the deeper significance of the Eden allegory.  This is something that hasn't yet been tackled deeply by many Christian writers as far as I know.   That is probably because it relates to the very nature of being human which is not the easiest subject.



OK...

First, how can you say that The Fall of Eve and Adam is allegorical? Is The Talking Snake allegorical? Is the Creation Story allegorical? Is the flood allegorical? Is Jonah's story allegorical? Is Job's story allegorical? Is the divine birth allegorical? Resurrection? The Book of Revelation? If all these are allegorical, than what your faith is based on? A fairy tale? Isn't that what atheists are saying all the time? If not, how do you distinguish those which are allegorical and which are not?

Second, Allegorical or not, how come Eve and Adam were forgiven?! Weren't they thrown out of Eden because they couldn't be in the presence of god for they have sinned? It's been said: "You will die on the very same day you taste the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil." (Some verse in the bible). They died, so to me it looks like a punishment. And "they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later"?? WTF?! They didn't ask Jesus to fill their heart, so how in the world they could be forgiven by the blood of Jesus? Could I be forgiven the very same way? Why then Israelites needed the blood of pure animals to please god?

And third, "Sin led to greater potential for human kind? For the sake of the story, their sin brought murderers into world (Cain, by the way), so this is the greater potential? So, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? So, fall leads to a greater rise? Oh, now I get it... That's why god mixed human's languages in the story of Tower Of Babel, so they could make a greater rise? So, if sin was a necessity, why Eve and Adam were outcasts?

From what you're saying, the only thing rising here is a new christian denomination. The things you're saying I hear for the first time, and trust me, I met a lot of christians during certain time, and I visited camps and places... Never heard of what you are sayin'. Interesting... I need to save your post for future references... I think this would be great for my site? It got to make people laugh!
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on April 23, 2010, 07:51:18 AM
Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

What do you mean they died spiritually?  What does that mean?  Their spirits died?  Where is that written in the bible?  Is this a figure of speech?  If so, where else was this used?  Why should we not take this story in a straight forward reading[1]

If you are correct, then are we all spiritually dead?  Since no one on earth is in god's presence...


and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.

If the world is 13 million years old, then 600 years is the blink of an eye.  If the world is 6000 years old, as many fundies claim, it is 10% of the age of the universe.  That would be a very long time.  Not soon after at all.
 1. you know, besides the fact that if we did that, it does not add up the way you want.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on April 23, 2010, 08:45:47 AM
Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.
so we can rely on God to screw around for 100s of years to get around to something?   Doesnt' bode well for when he might get around to sending himself back?  I am also curious, if there was some "original sin" this should mean that no human at all should ever have had the chance to see God again.  But the bible says this isn't true.  We have Moses doing it all the time and he was a murderer on top of the "original sin". 
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: SOIAM on June 11, 2011, 07:13:10 PM
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?
god (supposedly) never lies, correct?
god says, and i quote (from my mom's bible):

Quote
in the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?

Hello everyone,
Peace to you all,  I will post my first post on this forum here, I am Catholic and will answer your question as I understand it.  The snake was Lucifer, God never ever lies, God said they would die if they ate the fruit, that is exactly what happened, as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons. Then He kicked them out of the garden and placed a flaming sword to prevent them eating from the tree of life, which was keeping them alive, so because they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life Adam lived a total of 930 years I would roughly estimate that after he left the garden and stopped consuming  the fruit of the tree of life he lived about 800 years. So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them, and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished, unless God in His mercy decided to save them. Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin. (Lucifer's sin was  that he wanted to be better than God. Pride) that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven. (the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)
I will also give you an interpretation and how it still applies to us today.
The 2 trees (tree of life and tree of knowledge) are equivalent today to good and evil, they represent God and Lucifer, if you go to God, He looks after you here and in heaven and if you choose the tree of knowledge/Lucifer/sin you die, twice, once in the human form and a second time when you get cast into hell. So having the tree of knowledge/Lucifer in the garden wasn't what made Eve sin it was the fact that she chose to eat the fruit/disobey/sin despite the fact that she knew she had been commanded not to do so. Today we have the 10 commandments and every time somebody breaks a commandment/ sins it is equivalent to us being in the garden of Eden and taking a bite out of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as Eve did. The problem is that most of the people today are sitting in the tree all day and night eating the fruit one after the other while ignoring God and blaspheming and laughing at Him, which is not a good thing since your eternal resting place depends on His mercy and forgiveness. That explains why Gods spirit leaves as it does not like sin since it leads to certain death. So sin is death and it killed Adam and Eve. On the flip side, if we were to climb down the tree and move away from it/stop sinning, intending to never return to it we could then approach God/ ask for forgiveness and mercy and because God is so merciful if done correctly (sacrament of confession) we can obtain forgiveness and God can come closer and send His spirit back into us/live/eat of the tree of life. God Himself said that so it is true as He never lies. Unfortunately most of the population today is asleep and although they think they are awake are heading for a major disaster that will be hell.

well that is a condensed summary of what occurred. Hope it helped I can explain in more detail if you don't fully understand. Here are some of  the relevant verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

Genesis 3. 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? 2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.

8 *And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise. 9 And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou? 10 And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself. 11 And he said to him: And who hath told thee that thou wast naked, but that thou hast eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat? 12 And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat.

*notice how God was able to walk with Adam and Eve since they were sinless, God was able to approach and walk among them.

14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and the beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

This is a prophecy relating to the Jesus' Mother Virgin Mary, she is often depicted in statues crushing the head of the serpent with her heel, that won't happen until Lucifer and all his followers get defeated and thrown into the lake of fire for eternity.

20 And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living. 21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.

22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. 23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. 24 And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God is extremely intelligent so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy, If humans ever decided to go against God He could just kick them out of the garden preventing them from eating the fruit of life and eventually dying, and He would not have to kill them Himself that way, they would just kill themselves/self destruct, thanks to their free will and Lucifer's manipulation and lies. God would then only take the righteous souls who were awake and who had their name written in the book of life or had not had their name blotted out due to their sins and failure to seek forgiveness. But since the souls can't be killed they need to go somewhere, when heaven is out of the question they end up taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him above Almighty God Creator of heaven and earth while they breathed their few short breaths on earth. Shame really.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: LadyLucy on June 11, 2011, 08:27:13 PM
Hello everyone,
Peace to you all,  I will post my first post on this forum here, I am Catholic and will answer your question as I understand it.

Hello, SOIAM. As they say, "Peace be with you," I say, "And also with you."

Let's get started.

The snake was Lucifer, God never ever lies, God said they would die if they ate the fruit, that is exactly what happened, as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons.

The snake never revealed itself to be Satan. However, the snake signifies deceit. God did lie. Dying is not an issue to take lightly. He didn't say he'd exile them from the Garden of Eden. He could have said that, yet instead, he told them they would die.

Adam and Eve had nothing taken away, other than being exiled from the Garden [I imagine it to be a pretty place]. He did not take away "His Spirit", nor "His Graces", nor "His Virtues". After he exiled them, Adam and Eve decided to settle down and have children. Their children had children [through incest]. God gave them His blessing and thought all this to be good, as said in the Bible. He indeed did exile them from the Garden and thus, denied them access to the Tree of Knowledge. But he took nothing more away from Adam and Eve. They both went off on their journey to expand. That's it.

The archangel with its fiery sword guarded the gate to the Garden. Did God also take away their protection? No. You know why, SOAMI? He's God! He can definitely protect them, whether they be in that Garden, which nobody else could enter, or on the other side of the world. Adam and Eve were never under attack from demons, nor Satan himself. The beginning of the Book of Genesis showed Adam and Eve to be prospering.

Again, I say, as I have read: Nothing was taken away from them. Instead, they gained from eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge [and the tree implies what it gave them]. They realized they were naked, first thing. Is being naked "beautiful"? I guess so! What God was depriving them from was corruption of any kind. When they ate that fruit, they were no longer "innocent like children" [Jesus asks this of all his followers]. God was disobeyed. The snake deceived them by telling them that it's OK to eat the fruit. However, them being "innocent", they knew no better. God only wants the utmost obedience from his followers. No more, no less. His word is law.

For them to be "corrupted" with the most basic of knowledge, it gave God the danger of not being followed as the puny humans are supposed to. From the beginning, all he wants is humans to fear him, nor disobey him. The more "innocent" and naive they are, the better it is for Him. Why? I do not know. It is not explained in the Bible.

As a side-note: Isn't it funny that the more people know, the more likely they are to be free of any religion or anything that is meant to "woo" people? To me, this is as much as much mythology as the Greek's, the Egyptian's, the early Semitic people's [etc] pantheon.

I digress though. It's interesting to talk about this. Now that we got this all clarified, let's move on.

Then He kicked them out of the garden and placed a flaming sword to prevent them eating from the tree of life, which was keeping them alive, so because they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life Adam lived a total of 930 years I would roughly estimate that after he left the garden and stopped consuming  the fruit of the tree of life he lived about 800 years.

Nothing to clarify here. The Tree of Life was keeping them alive more than they should be alive. They were to be forever alive, because they were both His only creations, and innocent like children, naive, and more than willing to worship Him. Did they ever think beyond anything? No. The whole point of them not eating it was, in a way, to see how far their obedience would go, even as naive and obeying as they were. God made a mistake, which is surprising since God is supposed to be a perfect being free of error: Omnipotent, all-knowing, and all-seeing.

So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them, and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished, unless God in His mercy decided to save them. Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin.

Yes, they had sinned by simply disobeying God. It's too bad that according to this one story, every single human will go to hell and no one is able to reach heaven, according to the mythological phenomenon that is presented in the Bible, even with after the story of Jesus and God saying he can forgive mankind for their sins. It's just not possible to get to heaven with modern Christianity where it's at.

And again, Lucifer was not there. He did not attack Adam and Eve. They were not harmed, other than not consuming the Tree of Life made them immortal no more. Personally, I don't see why I would want to be immortal; boring, boring, boring. I guess back then, immortality seemed cool.

Regarding their deaths, according to how Christianity works, yes. They would go to hell, unless God relieved them from their sins and took them to heaven. I don't think it ever says anything regarding where they ended up in the afterlife. As the Book of Genesis shifts focus into their children, their fate ended up being irrelevant. It is not clear in the Bible as to what happened to them after their deaths.

Anyway, it seems that there's infinite transgression. It only took one time to sin, and it can only be assumed that they were destined to hell. Just like all other humans would be under modern Christianity today. I'll tell you now, SOAMI, and only once, and that is that no human is in heaven. Of course, people say the weirdest things in name of the Christian God, despite the fact he's not present, nor saying anything. They say that everyone that believes go to heaven, or that God just randomly picks and chooses. That's not how it works when the Bible is finally read and understood, however.

Moving on.

(Lucifer's sin was  that he wanted to be better than God. Pride)

Nowhere does it say that in the Bible. That is up to personal interpretation, which is not proper practice of hermeneutics. What happened to Lucifer was simply an act of rebellion gone, well, exactly like it should have gone; God is all-knowing and omnipotent. Lucifer wasn't going to win, and SOIAM: Satan can never win to begin with. The only way the being could win is if God gets lazy and decides, "Nah. I'm not going to save this person. Simply because. I don't care if I get more followers that way." Under the assumption this being exists.

that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven. (the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)

Adam and Eve never lost God, SOAMI. They simply got kicked out of a nice garden and were denied immortality. And again, Satan is not supposed to win to begin with. It goes against the very mythological phenomenon that God is omnipotent, like He says he is. Yet, there are instances in which God "loses", or nothing is done about the situation.

It just leads to the conclusion that this deity doesn't exist, nor any other deity/supernatural being.

I will also give you an interpretation and how it still applies to us today.
The 2 trees (tree of life and tree of knowledge) are equivalent today to good and evil, they represent God and Lucifer, if you go to God, He looks after you here and in heaven and if you choose the tree of knowledge/Lucifer/sin you die, twice, once in the human form and a second time when you get cast into hell. So having the tree of knowledge/Lucifer in the garden wasn't what made Eve sin it was the fact that she chose to eat the fruit/disobey/sin despite the fact that she knew she had been commanded not to do so.

...Or it could be, like many Christians believe today, that this all happened. That none of it is metaphorical. That it is not up to personal interpretation. Because according to Christian mythology, the Bible IS the Word of God. There's nothing more to this, other than what was already clarified and said.

The Tree of Knowledge was... just there. Why did God place it there? Bible doesn't clarify. Because we both know that God is in control of evil, as said in the Bible, it can be assumed that He placed the snake there to see the range of His creations' obedience. And since he is all-knowing, this all was supposed to happen. However, that's too perfect, and God made one too many mistakes throughout the Bible [this being is supposed to be perfect, and also an angry and jealous one] that contradicts this deity's nature. The mythology as described in the Bible is very flawed. It's terribly obvious different authors wrote it, and that they really had no clue how to make up the story further in order to make it clearer.

Today we have the 10 commandments and every time somebody breaks a commandment/ sins it is equivalent to us being in the garden of Eden and taking a bite out of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as Eve did.

And that everyone's going to hell, including all "good" and "true" Christians.

The problem is that most of the people today are sitting in the tree all day and night eating the fruit one after the other while ignoring God and blaspheming and laughing at Him, which is not a good thing since your eternal resting place depends on His mercy and forgiveness.

Most people? You are describing the other side of your religion, which is Satanism. "Most people" are not Satanists, SOAMI. Neither is anyone on WWGHA. I think, if my memory's right, when this one Satanist came up recently upon WWGHA, he was ridiculed well-enough to see that people that are free of deities and the supernatural are not the equivalent to the "evil" side of mythology.

What I am is appalled. Appalled because the Bible is very poorly written. The battle between "Good and Evil" is very flawed; it's like reading a bad book, and it's not making any sense. Practicing hermeneutics doesn't make it any better, unless they drop hermenetics, and go with pure personal interpretation according to emotion. Which is not scholarly. Which is incorrect.

Now that we are onto Satanists, they are deluded and even bigger idiots. I don't understand them, just like I don't understand Christians believing in a flawed deity who is not supposed to be flawed. Ultimately, the ones worshiping/going with the supposed evil side, is no more better.

Like you see, I am neutral [because I don't believe in your deity nor any other, so I have no emotional attachment, except my husband, of course] and discussing about the Bible. Anyway.

That explains why Gods spirit leaves as it does not like sin since it leads to certain death. So sin is death and it killed Adam and Eve.

Again, personal interpretation = Is a no-no

Sin is not death. Nowhere is it stated in the Bible. Adam and Eve died like they were supposed to, since they no longer ate the Tree of Life. God denied them immortality.

On the flip side, if we were to climb down the tree and move away from it/stop sinning, intending to never return to it we could then approach God/ ask for forgiveness and mercy and because God is so merciful if done correctly (sacrament of confession) we can obtain forgiveness and God can come closer and send His spirit back into us/live/eat of the tree of life.

Only to end up in hell? Again, the Bible mythology is just incredibly flawed...

It's Catch 22: No Christian is going to heaven, even if they believe with the very bottom of their hearts, or whatever emotional appeal there is to the religion. But, if they'd rather believe that they are going to heaven, even though technically, everyone is going to hell, just for the emotional comfort, then err... Go right ahead?

God Himself said that so it is true as He never lies.

We already went over this. God did lie, also, about his followers going to heaven. Again, infinite transgression. Whatever sin you commit first will be the destiny to your fate, according to the Bible. Even with some priest telling you that you are forgiven. Even with Jesus "dying for mankind's sins".

Unfortunately most of the population today is asleep and although they think they are awake are heading for a major disaster that will be hell.

Asleep? Everyone's fully awake and living, as this planet goes 'round and 'round. Life always moves on. And this "major disaster" you speak of, which I assume is the Rapture, still has yet to come, after millennia. There is no "and this time it will happen!" It's just mythology.

And as I already mentioned, every Christian is going to hell, simply according to all of the content in the Bible. Which means you would be going to hell, too, and even those who do "good deeds" are not saved. Fortunately, since this religion is just as real as Jaidaism and Animism, that won't happen.

well that is a condensed summary of what occurred. Hope it helped I can explain in more detail if you don't fully understand.

Don't worry. Vast majority, if not, all people here at WWGHA, have read the majority, or all, of the Bible. We also have knowledge of other religions and anything "wooing". You do not need to display Bible verses unless absolutely necessary. Everyone should have at the least read the whole Book of Genesis, so no need for the relevant Bible verses.

God is extremely intelligent so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy, If humans ever decided to go against God He could just kick them out of the garden preventing them from eating the fruit of life and eventually dying, and He would not have to kill them Himself that way, they would just kill themselves/self destruct, thanks to their free will and Lucifer's manipulation and lies. God would then only take the righteous souls who were awake and who had their name written in the book of life or had not had their name blotted out due to their sins and failure to seek forgiveness. But since the souls can't be killed they need to go somewhere, when heaven is out of the question they end up taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him above Almighty God Creator of heaven and earth while they breathed their few short breaths on earth. Shame really.

Err. Keep the personal interpretation to yourself, SOAMI. You lost everyone here.

Despite that, nice discussing with you.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: jetson on June 11, 2011, 08:42:17 PM

i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?

Blaziken...look up Hugh Ross, of reasons.org.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Aaron123 on June 11, 2011, 09:30:11 PM
Welcome SOIAM.  Before we go any further, I think there's a few things we need to clear up.  Some questions:

Are you aware that most of the people here are atheists?

What do you think the word "atheist" means?  Do you think it means "denying god", or do you think it means "having no god-beliefs"?  Those are very important distinctions!

Are you aware that atheists consider the book of genesis (and the rest of the bible) to be nothing more than an old, fanciful story?

What do you think you can do to prove that there does exist a god being, and that the bible is the true word of this god being?  This is a extremely critical one to answer, as many of us will push you to provide evidence for your claims.


I look forward to your respond.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Jezebel on June 11, 2011, 09:33:11 PM
For all the talk of us blaspheming and going to hell and being asleep and everything else that's wrong with us because we don't believe your "this-part-is-metaphor-but-this-part-is-real-fact"-- I have yet to have one TrueChristianTM explain to me how it is that if I live a perfectly moral life full of honouring my parents and paying my taxes and loving my neighbour and contributing to charity and trying not to lie unless socially necessary and being faithful in my marriage... if I have lived at LEAST as much, if not MORE than, according to the 10 Commandments and everything Jesus supposedly taught... no matter how good I am, what I do, what I contribute to world, no matter what my behaviour or intents or deeds... I'm going to hell.

Your god is so egomaniacal that he can see ALL of that and STILL condemn me to an eternity of torment because I didn't believe in all the "this-part-is-a-metaphor-but-this-part-is-real" crap that divides the world into factions because everyone is SO sure they're right-- your god is so egomaniacal that even though I have extremely rational and well-thought out reasons for being an athiest, I'm doomed to eternal torment because your god cares more about people worshipping him than he does about anything they ACTUALLY do.

I tell you something, with all your "this-part-is-a-metaphor-but-this-part-is-real," ten thousand denominations and ten million interpretations science-denying flat earthers-- you can keep your god. Your god sucks.

Again:

Your. God. Sucks.

As you can clearly see, I'm not as interested in your opinion as others. But you people with all your moral self-righteousness are just as morally benighted and blighted as the god you worship. You all deserve each other.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: LadyLucy on June 11, 2011, 10:45:56 PM
As you can clearly see, I'm not as interested in your opinion as others. But you people with all your moral self-righteousness are just as morally benighted and blighted as the god you worship. You all deserve each other.

At least he has not made assumptions about atheists and who they are. He seems much calmer and actually wanted to go ahead and share his input. I still think that the world being "asleep" towards Christianity itself is rather silly to say. There are plenty of Christians out there who thinks they are the best. Far from asleep. More like fully aware.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Alzael on June 11, 2011, 10:57:00 PM
The snake was Lucifer,

1. No it wasn't.

2.Lucifer is not Satan.

3.The snake was not Satan either.

God never ever lies,

1.Jeremiah 4:10
    Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

2.Jeremiah 20:7
    O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

3.2 Thessalonians 2:11
    For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

4.2 Chronicles 18:22
    Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

5.Ezekiel 14:9
    And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

God said they would die if they ate the fruit, that is exactly what happened, as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons.

This is not death. They lived on and had many children.

Then He kicked them out of the garden and placed a flaming sword to prevent them eating from the tree of life, which was keeping them alive, so because they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life Adam lived a total of 930 years I would roughly estimate that after he left the garden and stopped consuming  the fruit of the tree of life he lived about 800 years. So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them, and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished, unless God in His mercy decided to save them. Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin. (Lucifer's sin was  that he wanted to be better than God. Pride) that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven. (the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)

1.An awful lot of supposition in there. So god wasn't lying when he said they would die, according to you. He just forgot to tell them that it was going to take a millennium or two to kick in?

2.Lucifer is not Satan, nor does Lucifer have any demons. Nor was Lucifer kicked out of heaven.

3.Seriously, read the bible.

I will also give you an interpretation and how it still applies to us today.

Interpretation means "I made this up". Why do you have to interpret it? How about just proving that you're right?

The 2 trees (tree of life and tree of knowledge) are equivalent today to good and evil, they represent God and Lucifer

1. LUCIFER IS NOT.......oh nevermind. Fine, we'll do it your way. Lucifer=Satan.

So sin is death and it killed Adam and Eve.

Then why use the two terms so separately? If sin=death why not just say that they will sin by eating the apple and avoid the confusion?

well that is a condensed summary of what occurred. Hope it helped I can explain in more detail if you don't fully understand.

Actually what you mean is that this is your version of what occurred based on whatever it is that you want to use to justify your own preconceived notions.

God is extremely intelligent

His actions in the bible say otherwise.

Seriously, you should read the whole book sometimes. I think you missed a few parts.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Jezebel on June 11, 2011, 10:58:31 PM

At least he has not made assumptions about atheists and who they are. He seems much calmer and actually wanted to go ahead and share his input. I still think that the world being "asleep" towards Christianity itself is rather silly to say. There are plenty of Christians out there who thinks they are the best. Far from asleep. More like fully aware.

*shrug* ...I'm just sick and tired of these people being so sanctimonious and self-righteous and making generalizations about how atheists-- which include me-- are this or that or the other-- they know everything, somehow-- everything about me-- so much about me, in fact, that they feel perfectly comfortable criticizing me on all kinds of personal levels. It's rude, it's insulting, and it's totally without basis. Every once in awhile I lose my temper. They should just be grateful I don't lose it more often in more effective ways.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: LadyLucy on June 12, 2011, 01:11:31 AM
2.Lucifer is not Satan.

3.The snake was not Satan either.

I wanted to desperately point this out, but I don't think he knows enough to differentiate the two characters... Thanks you for doing so; it was greatly bothersome, and I could not make up my mind as to whether I should tell him or not.

Here's the info. for SOAMI anyway: http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-lucifer-and-satan/

@ SOAMI: Basic. And it's OK. I used to think Lucifer and Satan were interchangable, too.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: LadyLucy on June 12, 2011, 01:15:43 AM
*shrug* ...I'm just sick and tired of these people being so sanctimonious and self-righteous and making generalizations about how atheists-- which include me-- are this or that or the other-- they know everything, somehow-- everything about me-- so much about me, in fact, that they feel perfectly comfortable criticizing me on all kinds of personal levels. It's rude, it's insulting, and it's totally without basis. Every once in awhile I lose my temper. They should just be grateful I don't lose it more often in more effective ways.

I feel you. And yet, they ask: "Why do you seem so angry though? Why are you so irritated?"

It's like asking me: "Why do you have reasonable emotions? I can't understand at all."

It never ends. I'm just glad SOAMI has sparked no fire. In the end, it's all about understanding. I can only hope that the SOAMI makes no assumptions nor judgements about anyone, which includes other believers like him.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on June 12, 2011, 04:05:37 AM
SOAMI, after glancing at your response (since it's practically unreadable) and reading some of the replies to it, I can say that you're no different from every christian who tried to answer this question. Let me give you (and anyone else who reads this) the short version of your argument:

You claim the Bible is metaphorical in this specific portion.
You claim that you alone hold the truth to its meaning
You claim that your god cannot approach things with sin (to quote your own post: "*notice how God was able to walk with Adam and Eve since they were sinless, God was able to approach and walk among them.")
You claim that we're all sinners and yet we can still go to heaven, despite the previous claim.
You claim that your god is perfect, yet was unable to prevent such an action and was afraid (as in, scared because he knew he'd lose) that humans would rebel against him (to quote your own post: "God is extremely intelligent so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy(...)")
You claim that their death was spiritual.

And here's the best part that makes your post no different from every other christian's who replied to this topic:
For all these claims, you have zero, I repeat, zero support from any source, even your own Bible.

When you decide to present evidence (yes, I'll even take the Bible), feel free to get back to me. Otherwise don't bother.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Persephone on June 12, 2011, 07:22:36 AM
And yet, they ask: "Why do you seem so angry though? Why are you so irritated?"

It's like asking me: "Why do you have reasonable emotions? I can't understand at all."
Calling us angry is the ultimate red herring. And they say it with such smugness, as if calling us angry somehow automatically destroys our case by giving them the right to deny us their proper attention.

It's amazing how devastating a blow they think they're dealing when they make comments about angry atheists.

I love what Greta Christina says about it (http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html). I've been tempted to print out copies and pass them out to anyone who comments about atheist anger. ;)
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: naemhni on June 12, 2011, 07:54:17 AM
Hi, SOIAM, welcome to WWGHA.  I see that the rest of the board has already addressed most of the items in your post, leaving little for me to handle, but let me see whether there's anything that anyone might have overlooked...

Peace to you all

And to you as well.  Thank you.

Quote
I am Catholic

I honestly can't help but wonder, just as Greta Christina does: Why are you still Catholic? (http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/05/why-are-y.html)  If any other organization were to behave the way the Church does, you would flee in horror and exhort everyone on the planet to flee as well, and you'd be frantically begging the police to put them all behind bars -- but you stay with the Church, support it, and openly admit to belonging to it -- an organization that includes child rapists in its leadership and actively protects them?!

Quote
The snake was Lucifer, God never ever lies

Wrong and wrong, as has been shown...

Quote
as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons.

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

Quote
they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

Quote
So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them

I'm a little unclear on something, here.  If Lucifer was the snake, and Lucifer did not have "access" to Adam and Eve before they sinned by eating the fruit, how did Lucifer convince them to eat the fruit?  It would seem that to convince someone of something, you have to have access to them.

Quote
and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

Quote
unless God in His mercy decided to save them.

Which he didn't.  Interesting, yes?  (Well, no.  Appalling.)

Quote
Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin. (Lucifer's sin was  that he wanted to be better than God. Pride) that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven.

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

Quote
(the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

Quote
I will also give you an interpretation and how it still applies to us today.

Fair warning, in case you haven't gotten the point yet: "interpretations" don't fly very far with skeptics.  We take scripture at face value.  Or at least, closer to face value than most apologists do.  Most of what you said in your next paragraph, as with what you said above, is not supported by scripture.  For example:

Quote
The 2 trees (tree of life and tree of knowledge) are equivalent today to good and evil, they represent God and Lucifer

This is, as you say, your interpretation, which is fine and good for you, but the bible doesn't say this.  It doesn't even remotely imply it.  You're just making it up, so don't expect skeptics to accept it.

Similarly:

Quote
Today we have the 10 commandments and every time somebody breaks a commandment/ sins it is equivalent to us being in the garden of Eden and taking a bite out of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as Eve did.

Your own interpretation; fine for you; won't fly with us due to utter lack of scriptural support.  I could continue doing the same with much of the other stuff you've said here, but I trust I've made my point after some eight or ten iterations.

Quote
Here are some of  the relevant verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

Which brings me to my next fair warning: most of the regulars here at WWGHA have read the bible more than once and in more than one translation.  Even those few of us who haven't (such as myself) have read the first few chapters of Genesis.  I've read only about one-third or so of the bible, but I've read the first three chapters of Genesis more times than I can count.

That being the case, I urge you to be careful when quoting scripture here (if you decide to stay here, as I hope you do).  Personally, I try to be one of the "friendly" voices, but others here have less patience.  If you quote scripture, particularly if it's scripture that most of us can recite in our sleep -- such as the first few chapters of Genesis -- you are going to encounter some, er, "negative reactions", to use a polite euphemism.

Quote
God is extremely intelligent

He sure is.  We can see that just by what a wonderful job he did in designing the human body.

1.  An appendix that is literally worse than useless.
2.  Openings to the trachea and esophagus right next to each other, so we can conveniently choke on our own food.
3.  Wisdom teeth, which cause all kinds of medical problems, not the least of them being abscesses and infections that can go all the way into the brain.
4.  Spine that would be just great for quadrupeds, but causes all kinds of problems for bipeds.
5.  Hip joints, ditto on the four-leg/two-leg thing; hip problems are quite common in humans, but rare in, say, dogs or cats (and even then, it's usually due to selective breeding, as with the labrador retriever).
6.  Knees, ditto again.
7.  Female pelvis too narrow for childbirth; potential cause of damage to baby during birthing process.
8.  Wrists far too fragile and easily broken, carpal tunnels are also a lot of fun.  (A ball-and-socket joint, for example, as in the hip, would probably work quite a bit better here).
9.  Sinuses, which do nothing except get inflamed for various reasons and interfere with our breathing.

Yep.  Absolutely brilliant.  Yahweh should join Mensa.

Quote
so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy, If humans ever decided to go against God He could just kick them out of the garden preventing them from eating the fruit of life and eventually dying

Why would Yahweh need an "insurance policy"?  He's omniscient, so he knew that Adam and Eve were going to "turn against him".

Quote
and He would not have to kill them Himself that way, they would just kill themselves/self destruct

"I think I'll leave a loaded gun in my three-year-old's room and forbid him to point it at himself and pull the trigger.  That way, I won't have to kill him myself, he'll just kill himself for me.  And if he obeys me and doesn't shoot himself, why, hey, that's great!  That really is what I want him to do, you know."

Can you seriously not see how despicable that is?

Quote
thanks to their free will and Lucifer's manipulation and lies. God would then only take the righteous souls who were awake and who had their name written in the book of life or had not had their name blotted out due to their sins and failure to seek forgiveness. But since the souls can't be killed they need to go somewhere, when heaven is out of the question they end up taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him above Almighty God Creator of heaven and earth while they breathed their few short breaths on earth.

Important to note: this entire passage can be true only if Yahweh is not omnipotent.  Are you willing to make that concession?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Graybeard on June 12, 2011, 08:27:25 AM
Hello everyone,
Peace to you all,  I will post my first post on this forum here, I am Catholic and will answer your question as I understand it.  The snake was Lucifer,
I don't think you are a Catholic at all. Read what is said in the Catholic Encyclopaedia at http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=179

and

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=3475

Catholics don't accept Genesis as literal but accept that the story says it was a snake - no mention of "Lucifer" "Satan" or "The Devil" - in fact the Hebrew, clearly says it is a snake as does Genesis:

Ge:3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.  And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Sometimes a snake is just a snake.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: naemhni on June 12, 2011, 08:32:30 AM
SOAMI, I see that you are new here.  You have posted a reply in a thread that has not received any replies in over a year.  This is called "thread necromancy" and is generally frowned on.  The general rule of thumb is that if a thread hasn't received any responses within about the past three months or so, you should start a new thread.

Also, if you have not already done so, please read the  forum rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17005.0.html).  Thank you.

Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Alzael on June 12, 2011, 09:32:30 AM
I'm a little unclear on something, here.  If Lucifer was the snake, and Lucifer did not have "access" to Adam and Eve before they sinned by eating the fruit, how did Lucifer convince them to eat the fruit?  It would seem that to convince someone of something, you have to have access to them.


Actually, this raises a better question that just came into my mind. Let's assume that SOIAM is actually right about all of this for a moment. Let's say that Lucifer and Satan are actually the same thing and that they did all of that stuff. If, by his reasoning, god cannot even be in the presence of anything remotely sinful; why do we see the two of them sharing the same space throughout the bible? For that matter why does god appear in person to other humans throughout the bible, even if they are not described as being pure and sinless. Ezekiel even got such a close-up view of god that he was able to see his almighty genitals and wrote about how awesome they were (something for you ladies to ponder).

God walks the earth often enough in the bible to make SOIAM's point of view on this subject easily demonstrable as being pulled out of his ass. God even stands face to face with Satan who (in SOIAM's limited worldview) is essentially the very embodiment of all sin.

Aside from the fact that not being able to be around sin would remove any possibility of his being omnipotent, it seems that he's only repelled by sin when it would make for a convenient excuse.

To voice another thought that had just occurred to me. This would also make Satan his superior in many ways. Since god would have to flee from Satan's mere presence, whereas the bible shows quite clearly that Satan has no such limitation regarding god. Or the presence of holy/sinless things in general.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Jezebel on June 12, 2011, 11:56:01 AM
I just wanted to quickly address the comments about being angry-- I know it's not helpful for me to lose my temper, and that they don't understand what it is that I'm reacting to.

It's like having a Nazi show up and start going on about how "morally ignorant" we are because we don't see that the Jews are evil-- like having a Nazi tell us we're "intolerant" and we're "arrogant" for not doing god's will by murdering the Jews. If you (the hypothetical theist I'm talking to) can imagine how that would make you feel-- having a Nazi tell you were the evil one, the ignorant one, the intolerant one-- wouldn't you be just a little bit pissed?

When theists start posting here, they use words like that-- ignorant, immoral, arrogant, intolerant-- and they don't seem to think that should make us angry because they think it's "true"-- the same way a Nazi thinks it's true that Jews are subhuman and should be exterminated-- they not only think that's true, they also think that's god's will. How would you react to a Nazi, who advocated ethnic extermination, telling you that you were immoral for not doing it and arrogant to disagree with it? Because that's basically how it makes me feel when people who believe in the Judeo-Christian god start telling me I'm immoral and arrogant because I don't believe in their god.

I don't know if that parallel will help or not but I figured I at least owed it to my fellow atheists to do something a little more constructive with my statements. Maybe comparing theists to Nazis isn't the most constructive but comparing Nazism to the Judeo-Christian god is wholly justified, in my opinion.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Graybeard on June 12, 2011, 03:01:36 PM
Ezekiel even got such a close-up view of god that he was able to see his almighty genitals and wrote about how awesome they were (something for you ladies to ponder).
Why does God need genitals? Are you sure it's not a misprint for "gentiles"?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Alzael on June 12, 2011, 03:22:42 PM
Ezekiel even got such a close-up view of god that he was able to see his almighty genitals and wrote about how awesome they were (something for you ladies to ponder).
Why does God need genitals? Are you sure it's not a misprint for "gentiles"?

He needs genitals to impregnate Mary, duh. How else is he going to fill her up with the 'holy spirit'. Really G-Beard, you've got to think these questions through.

Actually the actual verse says that he saw gods loins. I just thought that 'genitals' worked better in that sentence.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: SOIAM on June 12, 2011, 03:47:13 PM
Hi everybody, thanks for the interesting replies,  :D I will try to answer them all as I get time.
Sorry if I posted in the wrong place,  :angel:I probably should not post this here but I am just trying to get my 3 posts up and this one is number 2. If it's in the wrong place maybe I can start my own post in the future and an admin  can move it there.  I was going to post an introduction but then I noticed you had the 3 post rule and I just happened to pick this post, so I could get my 3 posts up.

Let me start by saying that I come in peace and don't have anything against atheists or anybody, we are all humans living on the same planet, and I am deeply concerned for all humans alike.

I should just mention something about myself and how I came to post here, I know that you might find it difficult to believe but I will tell you anyway as it is the truth, and you will need to know that. I don't come here to judge anybody or to accuse or to say that I am better than anyone here, on the  contrary, I am here because I care about my brothers and sisters, such as yourselves.

I should start by explaining a bit about myself and what has happened to me or to my life.
I am just an average guy, like to mind my own business and keep out of trouble, very, very rarely post or even go to forums. Although I was raised as a Catholic, once I left home I never went to mass or church or anything like that, so I was not a Bible basher AT ALL in case anyone is thinking that (trust me quite the opposite). By accident I started researching things on the web and I guess you can call me a conspiracy junkie, as the government now labels anybody that discovers any of their deceit. I prefer to use the word truth seeker, my countless hours turned into months then years and I have been researching almost full time for the last 8 years or more.

While researching these things I started to search for answers to who controls what, NWO, secret societies etc and discovered that many of these people are worshipping demons etc, that's how I ended up looking at the Bible by accident and other things in my research also led me there.

Anyhow  to cut a long story short, I have personally always thought that there was 1 God the God of the Bible. The Trinity. I must admit I am no saint, I have probably broken most of the commandments over and over countless times, without even giving the sins a thought.  I would say the occasional prayer when I needed something or I was in some sort of trouble (which I have had my fair share of). Well this one day I was outside at night watching the stars and I said a quick prayer and I asked a question, regarding something I had read or seen, when I came inside I went to my pc on and went to you tube to watch a video and I was amazed that the first video that appeared to me was labeled something like a message from God to you, I watched it and it answered my question.

I was really amazed as it seemed like it was not an accident. So I thought it was a weird coincidence and just moved on, then (many months later), one day I was just sitting on my pc doing my research etc. and all of a sudden God the Father just started to talk to me, I did not know what was happening initially as it caught me completely unprepared and it was unexpected (never even thought that it was possible). He revealed Himself to me for some reason which I do not know. My whole body changed it was a really weird sensation, I could just feel LOVE that was the sensation, that's the best I can describe it, we had a conversation just like when 2 people are talking.

He pointed some things out that I was doing wrong and counseled me on how to address these issues. He explained numerous things to me and I had to make numerous changes in my life as a result. I lost track of time but He spoke to me for hours not minutes. It was telepathic, I could just clearly hear and feel Him and when I thought of something He just responded immediately.

Depending on what He was telling me or what the subject was the strong sensation I felt would change accordingly, for example most of the time I could feel His LOVE and I also felt His Power and anger. I also completely lost my appetite after this episode and hardly ate at all for about 3 days.

By now you must all be thinking this guy is mad as a hatter.. Well now it gets even better, you will see. Because of what happened it surely changed my life and now I just want to learn more and am trying to establish some sort of a communication system since I now know it is possible to communicate with Him personally. I don't get to control how or when or why God chooses to speak to me. I am always trying to speak again as I now have so many questions but it seems He has done something to me because He said He would help me and He told me many other things, I feel as if, from what I am discovering I am being guided by the Holy Spirit, my whole body is different now and the way I do things and think has all changed, all for the better, not for the worse. I am trying to encourage the relationship as much as I can.

Since then I have been given what I seem to recognize as some sort of understanding/wisdom, amongst other things, I now understand that they are actually graces from God. (that is partly why I know God reduced His graces on Adam and Eve) I am not trying to blow my own trumpet here as I have nothing to gain, I am merely trying to explain how I arrived here. I started gaining this understanding and God started to send me people, really strange, like I would get an answer to a question and then somebody would either call me on the phone or come and visit me and they would ask me that particular question I had been given the answer to. So it appears that I am being used you could say as some sort of a warning device or what the Bible might refer to as a prophet of some sort you could say.?? I am not sure what is going on, I am just telling you what has and is happening to me. Don't know what He has in stall for me in the future if He has anything at all.

So I now have been given this what I would call special ability and am being guided so to speak by God the Father through the Holy Spirit, to speak to people instructing them on how to obtain salvation, as God has told me that He is going to save me. Now it appears that He is teaching me how to be saved, and the good news is that I am allowed to share it with others if they wish to listen to what He has taught me so far. (up until now I have usually only been telling my family and friends) 

I was just surfing the net one day as usual probably last week, and a vid popped up that was from this website, asking 10 questions including the one about the amputees and why God won't heal them. I was drawn to your website and I think God wants to answer your questions through me.

I can understand that you are probably spinning out reading all this but it is the truth, I actually had a look at your forum and hesitated as I thought you might not be interested in what He would say through me but He showed me that there is at least 1 person or maybe more amongst you all that He wants to communicate with, so most of the people from this forum might not be interested in, nor understand what I have to say as the message in reality might not be intended for everyone. I am sure that the right person/people will understand when they  see whatever it is God wants them to know, I don't know what that is and may never find out, it will probably be in something I say. He seems to be gathering His sheep and I am now helping Him, why now? I don't know I think earth is moving in a dangerous direction right now and anything could happen, I am not saying it will. I myself am not taking any chances as from my understanding it is just not worth taking the risk under any circumstances. Everyone reading this will eventually understand what I am talking about that I can assure you, the blindfold will be removed in due time. That just about sums up how I got here so I think my mission is really just to answer your 10 questions, and He also gave me a list of questions to ask anyone who wants to try to answer them, but I am not sure if I will post them yet. 

I noticed many questions regarding what I said on this post, so I will try to say only things from the Bible that way you can see that it is the word of God and not my own imagination. It is only fair that God answer with His Bible as He knows it very well I can assure you. I myself have probably read less of the Bible than most people on this forum by the looks of it. So God gives me the material it does not come from me and I will also mention that this could be an excellent opportunity for all you unbelievers as I will let you all ask as many questions as you like and if God wishes He might be able to answer you through me.

I can't guarantee that He will but it won't hurt to try, I am just putting it out there (I am talking about relevant questions not the lotto numbers etc), if on the other hand you think I am just somebody with a vivid imagination or whatever, that is ok as well, I can understand as what I am saying is extremely hard for many to believe, I can't deny it because I know it is true, I will if permitted, deal with the questions and then I can be on my way, or I don't mind stopping by from time to time if welcome or if you want to ask anything, and I don't know if this ability will last or not, it could well just disappear the same as it came. You can then delete everything  if you  don't like what I say, it would only be fair to let me try to answer the questions since you have put them out there.

To tell you all the truth I can't even remember what the questions are and I haven't yet found them on this forum, I think I saw them on the promotional video, but I am being compelled to answer them, that I am sure of, it should be good news for you all as you all seem to be seeking some answers. We all are I think, even I am.

I just hope this explains things as I said I am not here to judge, attack or anything like that you can consider me a friend but I am already finding this forum interesting to tell you the truth, hopefully we can learn from each other or just discuss our understanding of things.
thanks and nice to meet you all.

P.S. I should also mention that God is not in any way simple, He is the opposite, extremely complicated, yet easy to understand, I am finding, so don't expect quick answers to some questions as I find He usually likes to thoroughly explain things, once. If anything I say needs further clarification I will do my best to furnish you with more details and thanks in advance for your patience and for allowing me to post here.
May God Bless

Edited by Graybeard (Mod) to increase readability by adding paragraqphs. @SOIAM - I hope you don't mind.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: LadyLucy on June 12, 2011, 04:11:28 PM
I'm sorry SOAMI, but you lost credibility for this... "experience". I'm sure you just want to discuss, but there are many people that claim that they speak for their god, and either way, whether they actually genuinely want to share ideas, or want to convert others, it doesn't end up working out.

I hope you read our posts for what they are. We have no feelings for your god, nor anyone else's. It's all just, all-in-all, mythology. We take the Scripture, or any other religious book/doctrine, at face value. I'm glad to clarify whatever is being said, but personal interpretation is way too plenty in this world. And it's not "enlightening", nor does it provide evidence for your god's existence. It is not possible to be "simple yet complex" [and vice versa]. You must understand that does not exist. It's an oxymoron, and it makes no sense.

Take it easy, one step at a time, and do not be hurried in making a response. As long as it comes solely from you and not some article/video, I'm game for discussion. All we're looking for is direct answers. The answer can't be cryptic. It shouldn't have to be long.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: naemhni on June 12, 2011, 04:21:37 PM
Hi, SOIAM, thank you for your introduction.  A few suggestions, if I may:

First, please try to break up your writing into not-too-long paragraphs, with a double-space between each one (like this post).  Posts written in the same way as the last two you've made are quite difficult to read.  Thank you.

Second, while I understand that you feel you are "spreading his word" or however you want to put it, please do keep in mind that this is a discussion site, and if you say (for example) that the two trees represent Yahweh and Lucifer, you will be expected to make an effort to back up the claim if and when you are challenged on it.  If you simply make the assertion and don't defend it, that is called "preaching" and won't be warmly welcomed -- again, if you haven't read the forum rules yet, I urge you to do so.

Third, and perhaps most importantly: please keep in mind that most of the people here are quite expert in their knowledge and understanding of religion, philosophy, science, and scripture.  For example -- and I'm just being hypothetical, here, I'm not saying that you've done this or that you've shown any intention of doing so, because that's not so -- if you say, "You should believe in Yahweh because if you're wrong, you lose nothing, but if you're right, you gain everything", you should be ready to be told what Pascal's Wager is and have its flaws explained to you.  (We get that one about two or three times a month.)

I'm glad you're here.  You haven't said that you're praying for our deaths, and you're not telling us that we're doomed to burn in hell forever while being raped by demons (and laughing with glee at the prospect), which already puts you ahead of most of the Christians who come here.  I wish I could say I was joking, but I'm not.

Again, welcome to WWGHA.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Aaron123 on June 12, 2011, 04:29:37 PM
SOIAM, could you please break up your writings with paragraphs.  It's VERY difficult reading your posts when they're long wall of texts.

Also, could you respond to post 30?

I'll repeat:

Are you aware that most of the people here are atheists?

What do you think the word "atheist" means?  Do you think it means "denying god", or do you think it means "having no god-beliefs"?  Those are very important distinctions!

Are you aware that atheists consider the book of genesis (and the rest of the bible) to be nothing more than an old, fanciful story?

What do you think you can do to prove that there does exist a god being, and that the bible is the true word of this god being?  This is a extremely critical one to answer, as many of us will push you to provide evidence for your claims.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Alzael on June 12, 2011, 04:39:54 PM
I should also mention that God is not in any way simple, He is the opposite, extremely complicated, yet easy to understand,

This is pretty much a contradiction.

I am finding, so don't expect quick answers to some questions

If it is easy to understand then why shouldn't one expect quick answers?

SOIAM, aside from the obvious admonishment of "don't write walls of text". It would also be to your benefit to what you are actually talking about before you start talking about it. Your constant confusion between Lucifer, Satan, and the Snake being a prime example of this.

Also it is also expected that you at least attempt to respond to the points that are made. This is a discussion forum. Simply stating things without anything to back them up or without acknowledging previously made points and responses is "preaching" and is against the rules of the forum.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Karl on June 12, 2011, 04:59:38 PM
... many of us will push you to provide evidence for your claims.
Has any of the theists who came here ever provided evidence for their claims? I think it was ParkingPlaces who ones said that if a single evidence would be presented he'd reconsider his position (free"translation" as I really don't find that post anymore).

Is that not the basic problem. There is no evidence for the existence of any deity. So asking to provide exactly that is sort of obsolete if taken litterally. If any theist shows up here with valid scientific evidence of the existence of god we can close the forum.

I presume the intention is not so much getting our hands on evidence. Every theist who starts questioning his belief by learning the scientific way, maybe see what damage his and other religions ultimately do and turns away from it/them, is a success. To me it is all about opening their eyes.
 
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: naemhni on June 12, 2011, 05:19:29 PM
Has any of the theists who came here ever provided evidence for their claims? I think it was ParkingPlaces who ones said that if a single evidence would be presented he'd reconsider his position (free"translation" as I really don't find that post anymore).

Is that not the basic problem. There is no evidence for the existence of any deity.

No, that is not the problem, because:

Quote
I presume the intention is not so much getting our hands on evidence. Every theist who starts questioning his belief by learning the scientific way, maybe see what damage his and other religions ultimately do and turns away from it/them, is a success. To me it is all about opening their eyes.

This is exactly correct.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Jezebel on June 12, 2011, 10:22:03 PM
Quote
Unfortunately most of the population today is asleep and although they think they are awake are heading for a major disaster that will be hell.

Quote
...taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him aboive Almighty God"

1. So most of the world's population is going to hell because god can't -- or rather, chooses not to[1]-- produce clear evidence that he exists.

2. Hell consists of eternity for events in a mortal lifespan-- even convicted criminals get parole.

3. It does not matter if we do not even BELIEVE in Lucifer-- if we don't worship god it automatically means we worship Lucifer.

And yet this god loves us, and has "chosen" you to "save" us-- save us, that is, from conditions he created that involve us somehow figuring out which is the "right" god as explained to us by people who think they're telepathic prophets-- and then wonder why we don't believe what we hear.

If god is real and this is how he works, he is a monster.

If you are here to answer questions, answer me this: why does it not matter how I actually live my life, what morals I adhere to, what good deeds I do-- why does god not care about any of this, but only about whether I worship him? And, how is it fair that we are given, at most, 100 years of mortal existence but punished for an eternity? Why does god have less compassion that we do, if we're the sinners? If he's really justified in sending me to hell for all of eternity for not believing in him, why doesn't he try a little harder to prove to us-- all of us thinking, caring people who use our brains in a rational, intelligent fashion, just the way we were made to do-- why wouldn't he make it clear that he DOES exist? Why does he play these games? It might be fine for HIM to play games, but WE'RE the ones who go to hell for it. Do you really think we're all so bad because we think so hard? Do YOU think we here all deserve to go to hell? If YOU were god, would YOU send us all to hell?[2]

Now you tell me how any of that is FAIR. And if god isn't fair, just what the hell is it you are worshipping? In real life we would call him a tyrant or a dictator, except he's worse, because even tyrants and dictators can only make people's live miserable for the duration of the moral existence. God is worse that Hitler. Hitler only killed 6 million people. God is going to send the "majority" of 7 BILLION people to hell for eternity because they didn't all get it quite "right."
 1. edited to add that god really does have a choice about whether or not he wants to give us unambiguous, non-mysterious evidence, and the fact that he chooses not to, even when it means hell for eternity for us, is monstrous.
 2. Well, maybe me... but other people have been really nice.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on June 13, 2011, 10:15:12 AM
Let me start by saying that I come in peace and don't have anything against atheists or anybody, we are all humans living on the same planet, and I am deeply concerned for all humans alike.
but you have no problem in making believe that anyone who disagrees with your god is damned to eternal torture.  And yes, no I don't believe for a second that you aren't judging anyone.  Your religion is nonsense.
Quote
discovered that many of these people are worshipping demons etc, that's how I ended up looking at the Bible by accident and other things in my research also led me there.
ooooh, demons.  So show evidence of these 'demons', or you are just telling more worthless stories.
Quote
He revealed Himself to me for some reason which I do not know. My whole body changed it was a really weird sensation, I could just feel LOVE that was the sensation, that's the best I can describe it, we had a conversation just like when 2 people are talking, He pointed some things out that I was doing wrong and counseled me on how to address these issues. He explained numerous things to me and I had to make numerous changes in my life as a result. I lost track of time but He spoke to me for hours not minutes. It was telepathic, I could just clearly hear and feel Him and when I thought of something He just responded immediately. Depending on what He was telling me or what the subject was the strong sensation I felt would change accordingly, for example most of the time I could feel His LOVE and I also felt His Power and anger. I also completely lost my appetite after this episode and hardly ate at all for about 3 days. By now you must all be thinking this guy is mad as a hatter..
No, I know you are as mad as a hatter.  People claim this nonsense constantly, from many different religions.  It's just one more attempt to claims just how "special" you are.  Funny how your god just whimsically picks and chooses only the crazies to speak to, and how none of you can agree what your God 'really' meant.  You supposed have special power.  What happens when this special power fails?  What excuses do you make for the people who don't believe your nonsense.  And indeed, if you are chosen of God, where is the healing?  JC said you could, now why can't any Christians actually do that?
Quote
I just hope this explains things as I said I am not here to judge, attack or anything like that you can consider me a friend but I am already finding this forum interesting to tell you the truth, hopefully we can learn from each other or just discuss our understanding of things.
thanks and nice to meet you all.
  So you are here to tell us the "truth".  Quite a bunch of arrogance there  &)   
Quote
P.S. I should also mention that God is not in any way simple, He is the opposite, extremely complicated, yet easy to understand, I am finding, so don't expect quick answers to some questions as I find He usually likes to thoroughly explain things, once. If anything I say needs further clarification I will do my best to furnish you with more details and thanks in advance for your patience and for allowing me to post here.May God Bless
So you want God to bless us. What do you mean by that? To make us change our minds so your magical superpowers work?   ;D   I'm pretty much sure that your special messages from God will be the same old tired apologetics and will fail awesomely.  How does an omnipotent God fail, SOIAM?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 13, 2011, 11:51:59 PM
How does an omnipotent God fail, SOIAM?(thanks for making me smile Velkyn)

 This should be interesting
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on June 14, 2011, 07:50:29 AM
SOIAM, I am still waiting for my evidence.
Find verses in the Bible (note: I don't usually accept the Bible as evidence, so you're in luck) that are unambiguous and support your point of view.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Ambassador Pony on June 14, 2011, 06:44:19 PM
SOIAM, what was the outcome of your last visit to a mental health professional? What were the specific diagnoses and treatment suggestions?

Please, don't lie.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on June 30, 2011, 12:56:43 PM
As I understand it, the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a trial of immortality.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on June 30, 2011, 01:03:15 PM
As I understand it, the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a trial of immortality.

This means nothing to me. Explain.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on June 30, 2011, 01:12:01 PM
Oops, the second "trial" should read "loss"
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on June 30, 2011, 01:21:36 PM
Oops, the second "trial" should read "loss"

So, once again, the "perfect word of YHWH" requires a translator. Great. I've heard multiple translations before, can you provide evidence that yours is correct?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on June 30, 2011, 01:23:04 PM
Oops, the second "trial" should read "loss"

Flew, are you understandign this from a Christian point of view or one from the literal words?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on June 30, 2011, 03:20:08 PM
What would the difference be?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on June 30, 2011, 03:32:33 PM
What would the difference be?

as you might notice on the forum, Christians have various ways to determinen what God "really" meant beyond the words as they appear on the page.  We have those who find every word literally meant, some who find that some of the bible is from god and some is from man, and some who find that the bible has many different types of literary forms and pick and choose what they think each part is.  Some literary forms are fairly obvious, some are evidently not.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on July 01, 2011, 02:12:08 PM
How then would you approach it?  I guess its just best we're on the same page, everyone's going to do this differently...
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on July 01, 2011, 02:17:22 PM
I approach it in the same way I would approach any other mythology - as literature.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on July 01, 2011, 02:39:39 PM
How then would you approach it?  I guess its just best we're on the same page, everyone's going to do this differently...
As Screwtape, I see it as one more set of myths.  Knowing the context in which they were written, Bronze and Iron age, I can then grasp what they are likely intended to mean. 

Flew, are you a theist?  An agnostic? An atheist?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on July 01, 2011, 03:14:32 PM
Oh, very much a theist, but I'm OK if myth is where your starting point would be, it makes sense; how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on July 01, 2011, 03:25:46 PM
Oh, very much a theist, but I'm OK if myth is where your starting point would be, it makes sense; how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?
just a story.  The creation story was created to give reason why we're not with god right now and why bad things happen, for the Israelites/Jews.  Then the "original" and universal bits were added to for Christianity so we all are "sinners" no matter what we do, so we all "deserve" anything that happens until we accept one more myth, Jesus Christ to take those sins away.   

For a little background on me, I was a Presybyterian, looked into other religions and eventually became an atheist. 
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on July 01, 2011, 03:30:27 PM
Thanks, and for the record, I think my statement can be understood from both perspectives, i.e. Christian or myth.

"...the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a loss of immortality."
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 03, 2011, 01:08:29 PM
putting aside original sin,first of God says you shall not kill,but in the next breath telling you to kill non believers and heathens. This throws original sin out the window as dar as I am concerened.

 
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: mram on July 03, 2011, 02:46:42 PM
I'm pretty sure I've broken all the commandments by now. I've committed multiple murders of insects and other creatures, but in order for it to be actual sin one has to actually believe it to be sin, but since we're all allegedly born with sin we're screwed.. Just because baptists thought it handy to get out of the deal would seem irrelevant now wouldn't it?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on July 04, 2011, 08:44:16 PM
Thanks, and for the record, I think my statement can be understood from both perspectives, i.e. Christian or myth.

"...the tree is understood as a trial of obediance, and death is understood as a loss of immortality."

so, do you think that the genesis story is literal or myth?  Same with the salvation story. 
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on July 05, 2011, 10:59:35 AM
how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?

That is my interpretation.  That it is mythology that some people have and still do take completely literally.

If[1] it were to be looked at as literature, it does not seem to be presented in the story in a metaphorical or symbolic way.  If you look at the whole, disjointed, contradictory mess of a story right through jesus H, the characters and events that took place in Eden are taken as literal facts by the rest of the characters. 

From the perspective of the various authors of the various stories of this compillation, they also do not seem to be trying to make a veiled point by using the Eden story symbolically.  They seem to be trying to actually explain something and see their writings as "journalism" or "science" rather than a description of abstract ideas relating to the human condition. 

Contrast that with modern fiction writers.  For example, in Huckleberry Finn, when Huck and Jim hid out in the cave, it could be said the cave was a metaphor for a womb.  It was a dark, wet place that was safe for the duo where they could prepare themselves to face the world at large.  This can be said because Twain was trying to make broader points about people and life.  He never alleged that there actually was a Huck or Jim.  They are symbols themselves.  This was not the view of Eve and Adam until 200-300 years ago.  Up until the scientific revolution and the Age of Reason, they were considered to be literal, historical figures.   

In light of new knowledge, we have since tried to reinterpret these ancient stories, calling them allegory or metaphors.  But in my opinion, that is a giant failure to understand their context.  If E&A are symbolic and the story of the fall is just a metaphor, then that undermines, if not utterly destroys, the supposed literal truths espoused in the same literature.  Does that mean yhwh and the serpent are metaphors also?  What about the hebrew patriarchs who alleged to trace their lineage to Adam?  What about jesus H, whom is also alleged to have lineage traced to Adam?  If Abe, Isaac, Jake and Noah are all metaphors - ie fictional - then Luke 3:23b-24, 36-38 is shot to hell and the whole authority of jesus H is shot to hell.

As I see it, you cannot have it both ways.  The bible is either literal or literary.   

 1. notice, it is a "big if".  Ha.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on July 05, 2011, 01:16:48 PM
I take it as literal.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on July 05, 2011, 01:26:32 PM
I take it as literal.

Are you sure?  That means none of those bits in the Eden story are metaphorical, none of the characters are representations of humanity at large, and everything they did actually happened factually.  Is that what you mean?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on July 05, 2011, 01:41:26 PM
I think Christians strongly differ on Chapter 1 of Genesis being that it is written (as I have been told) in a Hebrew prose much akin to poetry (and thus you have the old earth vs new earth christians), but I would say that I take chapter 2 onwards literally.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on July 05, 2011, 01:42:14 PM
but I should say that I tbelieve everything in chapter 1 literally happened, just in what capacity I am not sure...
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 05, 2011, 01:50:20 PM
Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on July 05, 2011, 01:50:48 PM
Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

QFT
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on July 05, 2011, 02:13:10 PM
I think Christians strongly differ on Chapter 1 of Genesis being that it is written (as I have been told) in a Hebrew prose much akin to poetry (and thus you have the old earth vs new earth christians), but I would say that I take chapter 2 onwards literally.

so the snake was real?  The tree of knowledge and god being worried that if A&E eat of the tree of life they'll be just like him?  God making clothes for A&E?  Original sin?  The Flood? 

That last is my speciality, having my degree in geology.  There is no evidence for any worldwide flood.  Not one bit.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: theFLEW on July 05, 2011, 02:27:58 PM
Yes, I take the story of adam and eve, etc. as literal, as a Christian myself, that shouldn't surprise you...
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on July 05, 2011, 02:35:30 PM
Yes, I take the story of adam and eve, etc. as literal, as a Christian myself, that shouldn't surprise you...

It does because Genesis 1 has already been disproven so much that it's not even funny anymore.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Historicity on July 05, 2011, 03:01:58 PM
Oh, very much a theist, but I'm OK if myth is where your starting point would be, it makes sense; how do you interpret the story of original sin from a mythic standpoint?

Little Red Riding Hood is a myth about child molestation and how to warn girls that some men are wolves and how to stay out of trouble.

Goldilocks and the 3 Bears is about a girl reaching the age where she is expected not to trespass and she is no longer a toddler who will be tolerated when she does.

Rapunzel is a Liberation of the Anima[1] myth when a young man learns to distinguish between his mother and other women (who aren't good enough for her son!)

Adam & Eve are a coming of age story about taking adult powers and duties and the sorrows of adulthood.
 1. Re: Carl Jung
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Azdgari on July 05, 2011, 03:09:08 PM
Yes, I take the story of adam and eve, etc. as literal, as a Christian myself, that shouldn't surprise you...

Would it be safe to conclude that you're a young-Earth creationist, then?  It follows fairly solidly from a literal belief in those stories.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on July 05, 2011, 03:48:27 PM
I think Christians strongly differ on Chapter 1 of Genesis being that it is written (as I have been told) in a Hebrew prose much akin to poetry (and thus you have the old earth vs new earth christians), but I would say that I take chapter 2 onwards literally.

What happened to chapter 1?  Why are you throwing that out?

but I should say that I tbelieve everything in chapter 1 literally happened, just in what capacity I am not sure...

please explain
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on July 05, 2011, 07:11:58 PM
Yes, I take the story of adam and eve, etc. as literal, as a Christian myself, that shouldn't surprise you...

So, is the legend of original sin literal?  Soem Christians accept it and some don't.  why the variation? 
Why do you believe in things that do not any evidence supporting them, such as the Noah Flood? 

I am guessing that you do not believe in any other myths, for what you consider good reason.  Can you apply that good reason to your own myths?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Hazrus on July 16, 2011, 08:22:20 AM
"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness!~ Morals and Dogma

The flood of Noah was simply a means of noting the period of the sun's weakness during the winter months and the perilous affect this had on the populace: the period of the floods worst devastation was indicated as spanning 150 days; this number is key to recognizing the focus of the symbolism; it covers 5 months at 30 days to the month. So we could note that when we come accross this number in scriptures, whether stated as 150 days or 5 months, it is probably referring to the period of earthly tribulation (environmental adversity) that accompanied the sun's descent to lower declinations during the winter months. Concerning the symbolism of the number 40: the first struggle that the sun encounters, after falling below the Autumnal Equinox, is the struggle of transition from summer to winter. We do not go from one season to the next instantly, but rather through a period of transition; the Ancients observed that the period of transition lasted 40 days, and they wrote this in their mythology. The moribund festival of Halloween marks the end of the 40-day period, from the Autumnal Equinox of september 22 in our modern calendars; and then from Halloween to the Vernal Equinox ( the Mount Ararat) is a little less than 150 days - this is the period of time indicated by the Noah saga, that the waters prevailed upon the earth. The actual days spanned from Halloween to the astronomical coordinate designating the Vernal Equinox (March 21) is actually about 140 days; however, the Ancients measured time by the phases of the moon, most notably the New Moon or the Full Moon; consequently they noted the first Full Moon, after the crossing of the Vernal Equinx, as their time indicator, and this took them to exactly 150 days.
If you strip away all the nonsensical jargon of the tale, about corraling into the Ark all of the world's creatures, so as to preserve them from the flood, you will note that the main import of the saga is to instruct people to store up provisions for a long (5 months) winter. The true dynamic within all mythology is instruction; mythology was the primary means used by the Ancients to preserve their knowledge and history. For many thousands of years, ancient mankind did not possess the means or resources to pass on knowledge in books, journals or scrolls; they had to instruct their societies orally; they discovered that the use of pictures, folk tales, symbolic stories (myths), songs, dances and gestures was the most efficacious system by which to preserve their history. ~ Malik H. Jabbar

In the Movie Evan Almighty, God(Morgan FREEman) tells Evan the rain will begin on September 22nd.~ Me

Saints they were called, and saints really they are, that name signifying, as its derivation betrays, SUNS, as each of the fixed Stars is a Sun; and which the circular halo of rays, with which the heads of their effigies were surrounded, expressly acknowledged; evangelists they were, because their office was "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord," and to mark the predicament of EVAN --- that is, of Bacchus, the Sun, through the four seasons. ~ The Rev. Robert Taylor (The Devil's Pulpit)

Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: globalvalue on July 23, 2011, 02:29:28 PM
Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

One interesting thing to note is that Eve doesn't get God's command to Adam correctly.

Genesis 2:16-17
16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

God only says Adam couldn't eat from the tree. Eve adds that they also could not touch the tree. Eve did not exist when God gave Adam the command not to eat from the tree so she may have received her information about the tree from Adam. This demonstrates how oral transmission of information is not reliable. [The gospels were written more than 40 years after the events they portray so how could they be accurate since they rely on oral transmission over 40 years?]

God told Adam "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” We know that God lied since Adam did not die the day he ate the "apple" but lived over 900 years. The serpent did not lie when he said... “You surely will not die!" because the "apple" did not kill Adam. It was not poisonous or harmful or deadly to eat. God murdered Adam. It was a very slow death but murder nonetheless.

Genesis 3:22-23
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
Obviously the tree of life contained some nutrient that kept Adam alive forever. By denying Adam access to the tree of life, God slowly starved Adam to death so he died 900 years later. It might be similar to slowly removing the oxygen from a room in order to kill a person.

So who is the liar? God or the Serpent?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: naemhni on July 23, 2011, 03:01:24 PM
Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

One interesting thing here that doesn't get talked about much, by the way: the serpent doesn't tell Eve to eat the fruit.  He doesn't encourage her to eat it, or even suggest eating it.  He only describes what would happen if they ate it.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on July 23, 2011, 03:05:19 PM
One interesting thing here that doesn't get talked about much, by the way: the serpent doesn't tell Eve to eat the fruit.  He doesn't encourage her to eat it, or even suggest eating it.  He only describes what would happen if they ate it.

At least that falls in line with (some) christian's beliefs that only Adam and Eve had something to do with the "fall of man" or whatever
However, it creates another contradiction - clearly YHWH hates truth. He punished the snake for telling Eve the truth about what would happen if she ate from the tree.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: globalvalue on July 23, 2011, 03:17:11 PM
Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

One interesting thing here that doesn't get talked about much, by the way: the serpent doesn't tell Eve to eat the fruit.  He doesn't encourage her to eat it, or even suggest eating it.  He only describes what would happen if they ate it.

Excellent point!
The Serpent says.......
"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” [Genesis 3:5]
I have had Christians say that this was a lie by the serpent. They never read Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

Before eating the "apple" Adam and Eve were like God's pet dogs. They ran naked through the garden, came when God called, [maybe when he whistled] and may have eaten from God's hand and slept at his feet.
When there eyes were opened they began to think like humans and realized they needed clothes and had to provide for their own well being.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: velkyn on July 25, 2011, 09:57:34 AM
I think I've said this before, but Eve, after eating the fruit, still thought it was a good idea to offer it to Adam.  So, it seems that she knows right and wrong and still did it.  It seems that by her actions, it was the right thing to do, no matter what God threatened.  Or that she was just inherently evil and wanted to make Adam suffer too.  ;)
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 01, 2012, 02:50:23 PM
I have heard some theists actually resort to the cop-out answer that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years" and pointing out that Adam lived 900 years, which is within one day (1,000 years) "in God's eyes." Nevermind the fact that they are grossly wrenching 2 Peter 3:8 from its context, it is obvious that the "author" of Genesis considered a day to be a single 24 hour period in that, in Genesis 1:8, we read: "And the evening and the morning were the second day."

You are correct in pointing out that the story has the serpent telling the truth and God lying. Yet another reason to resign the Genesis creation story to the shelves of the mythology section.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on March 01, 2012, 02:54:08 PM
I have heard some theists actually resort to the cop-out answer that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years" and pointing out that Adam lived 900 years, which is within one day (1,000 years) "in God's eyes."

Special pleading much? Adam lives for 900 years. Those are literal "Earth-years". YHWH created the Earth in six days. Those are "YHWH-days".
And they wonder why some of us make fun of them...

You are correct in pointing out that the story has the serpent telling the truth and God lying. Yet another reason to resign the Genesis creation story to the shelves of the mythology section.

Actually the very definition of "mythology" already does that. It's a religious narrative describing the beginning of the world and mankind.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Graybeard on March 03, 2012, 06:35:57 AM
I am no apologist, but it is important that we do not fall into the same trap as apologists and give bogus simplistic arguments that any reasonable person can see through.

Ge:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

1.   Even the Bronze Age peasant reciting this creation myth would not be so stupid as to have God say this and then have Adam and Eve live on - Adam to 900.
2.   Even if the Bronze Age peasant had said this, does anyone think that the scribe (a rare and educated profession) would have simply written this down? The Bible OT and NT is filed with rationalisations – why would this obvious one be left out?
3.   The whole basis of the Bible, OT and NT is a death cult: the Bible sets about explaining death and avoiding death. But it is death in the sense of mortality, as opposed to God’s condition of immortality. Mankind rejected this condition because of innocence.
4.      Let us consider what we would say today: "Don't breathe in that asbestos dust, you will die." There is no indication that death will be instant.
5. The reader must be aware that the English in which KJV1611 was written was old-fashioned even in King James's day. This was done much for the same reasons that legal language sometimes seems frozen in the past - it adds authority. The idiom, "in the day" does not mean the same as "today"; that would be "on this [very] day" - it means "during that time" or "in the time hereafter." This is not a magic decoder ring, it is simple knowledge of the history of English.

It is the singular of Ge:26:15: For all the wells which his father's servants had digged in the days of Abraham his father, the Philistines had stopped them, and filled them with earth.


Compare our usage (i) "In Lincoln's day, slavery was accepted" and (ii) "Back when Lincoln was a boy, in those days, slavery was accepted" We don't think that (i) means some Tuesday when Lincoln was alive.

If we want to laugh at something, it is the talking snake with legs - have we missed that to focus upon our own misunderstanding?

God is quite open about lying and deceit:
God Tells Lies
1 Kings 22:19-24 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.  And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.  Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Jeremiah 4:10
    Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

Jeremiah 20:7
    O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
    For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

2 Chronicles 18:22
    Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Ezekiel 14:9
    And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 03, 2012, 10:38:11 AM
If we want to laugh at something, it is the talking snake with legs - have we missed that to focus upon our own misunderstanding?

I agree with this. That is the most laughable part of the story.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: KingofBashan on March 03, 2012, 01:11:35 PM
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?
god (supposedly) never lies, correct?
god says, and i quote (from my mom's bible):

Quote
in the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?

In the day they ate of the tree did their death become sure?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on March 03, 2012, 01:16:13 PM
In the day they ate of the tree did their death become sure?

One is not the same as the other. If you tell someone that the very day they cut their wrists they'll die, are you saying that they'll die 900 years later? Or are you saying that they'll die within a 24-hour period?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: KingofBashan on March 03, 2012, 02:00:43 PM
In the day they ate of the tree did their death become sure?

One is not the same as the other. If you tell someone that the very day they cut their wrists they'll die, are you saying that they'll die 900 years later? Or are you saying that they'll die within a 24-hour period?

That doesn't answer the question, it tries to avoid it. Either in the day they ate their death sentence was certain or it was uncertain. If it was certain, then the statement has proven true.

I understand the analogy you are making, but it is flawed because it doesn't correlate well with what is happening in Genesis 2. In Genesis 2 God is giving a simple command - "you shall not eat". Your analogy is giving a conditional predicate "if you cut your wrists" - your analogy also indicates an active verb "if you cut your wrists", but God's command is passive "don't eat".  So in your analogy the penalty is a natural consequence of bleeding out, but in Genesis 2 the penalty is punitive - there is no natural relationship between eating a fruit and dying, but there is a punitive relationship - "for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die".

For your analogy to work I have to have authority over the person I am addressing. So the analogy assumes I have absolute authority over you and it goes like this: I say "You have freedom to cut all kinds of things, but you shall not cut your wrists. In the day you cut your wrists you shall surely die." Then you go and cut your wrists and I approach you immediately and I say "what have you done? did you cut your wrists like I asked you not to?" and you say yes. So I bind your wounds and then say "you will return to the dust from which you came." And in the course of time you do indeed return the dust from which you came.

In this analogy did I make any false statements? Did any of my statements prove false?
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on March 03, 2012, 02:06:11 PM
That doesn't answer the question, it tries to avoid it. Either in the day they ate their death sentence was certain or it was uncertain. If it was certain, then the statement has proven true.

Now that is a dodge. My explanation made your question irrelevant, as the statement was not proven true. You made a question with the assumption that "in the day you eat from it you will surely die" actually means "in the day that you eat from it you will become mortal", which is not supported by anything in the Bible. Nowhere does it say that A&E were immortal to begin with.

I understand the analogy you are making, but it is flawed because it doesn't correlate well with what is happening in Genesis 2.
<snip>

Buddy, I've been making analogies since... dunno. I very rarely make a false analogy, and this is not one of those times. It correlates with Genesis; specifically with the important part - the claim that they will die the very day that they eat from the tree.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: KingofBashan on March 03, 2012, 02:18:32 PM
That doesn't answer the question, it tries to avoid it. Either in the day they ate their death sentence was certain or it was uncertain. If it was certain, then the statement has proven true.

Now that is a dodge. My explanation made your question irrelevant, as the statement was not proven true. You made a question with the assumption that "in the day you eat from it you will surely die" actually means "in the day that you eat from it you will become mortal", which is not supported by anything in the Bible. Nowhere does it say that A&E were immortal to begin with.

I didn't say it means "you shall become mortal". I said it means that "on the day you eat of it you shall surely die - ie, your death will be certain." You are correct (actually I'm impressed, most folks miss this point), there is no textual evidence that Adam was immortal before the fall. There is only evidence that in the day he disobeyed God's command his mortality would be certain, or sure.

I understand the analogy you are making, but it is flawed because it doesn't correlate well with what is happening in Genesis 2.
<snip>

Buddy, I've been making analogies since... dunno. I very rarely make a false analogy, and this is not one of those times. It correlates with Genesis; specifically with the important part - the claim that they will die the very day that they eat from the tree.

It doesn't say "that they will die the very day that they eat from the tree" it says "in the day they eat from the tree they will surely die". Those are syntatically and therefore substantially different statements.

We may have to agree to disagree on this for now. I am merely trying to give an answer to your OP from an orthodox Christian perspective. I am not trying to persuade you.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on March 03, 2012, 05:10:33 PM
I didn't say it means "you shall become mortal". I said it means that "on the day you eat of it you shall surely die - ie, your death will be certain."

The only way that assertion could make sense is if they were immortal to begin with. It makes no sense to threaten one with certain (eventual)[1] death when one's (eventual) death is already certain. As you say below, there is no such claim in the Bible.

You are correct (actually I'm impressed, most folks miss this point),

Stick around. A lot of atheists here know the Bible better than christians.

It doesn't say "that they will die the very day that they eat from the tree" it says "in the day they eat from the tree they will surely die". Those are syntatically and therefore substantially different statements.

Uh... No. It's the same thing. By your logic when Yoda said "Yoda, I am" he didn't mean "I am Yoda".

We may have to agree to disagree on this for now. I am merely trying to give an answer to your OP from an orthodox Christian perspective. I am not trying to persuade you.

Debate is a form of persuasion, assuming that the person you're speaking to is intellectually honest.
 1. Assuming your interpretation is correct just for the sake of argument.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: KingofBashan on March 03, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
I didn't say it means "you shall become mortal". I said it means that "on the day you eat of it you shall surely die - ie, your death will be certain."

The only way that assertion could make sense is if they were immortal to begin with. It makes no sense to threaten one with certain (eventual)[1] death when one's (eventual) death is already certain. As you say below, there is no such claim in the Bible.
 1. Assuming your interpretation is correct just for the sake of argument.

I disagree with you that that is the only way my assertion makes sense. I'll explain.

We both agree the Bible makes no claim about Adam's mortal state. So he could have been immortal with the possibility of being made mortal, or he could have been mortal with the possibility of being made immortal. Either way, the assertion makes sense....

1. If Adam was immortal with the possibility of being made mortal, then on the day he eats of the tree he will surely die (ie he will be made mortal and the process of death will begin).

2. If Adam was mortal with the possibility of being made immortal, then on the day he eats of the tree he will surely die (ie his mortality will be locked in, and his death is certain).

You are correct (actually I'm impressed, most folks miss this point),

Stick around. A lot of atheists here know the Bible better than christians.

Excellent. I look forward to both the challenges and advantages that will bring.

It doesn't say "that they will die the very day that they eat from the tree" it says "in the day they eat from the tree they will surely die". Those are syntatically and therefore substantially different statements.

Uh... No. It's the same thing. By your logic when Yoda said "Yoda, I am" he didn't mean "I am Yoda".

I disagree. My logic does not suggests the Yoda thing. My logic would suggest that "Yoda, I am" and "I am Yoda" are syntatically different but substantially equivalent. My logic would also suggest that "in the day you eat of it you will surely die" does not have to mean "you will die that day" (eg, it may mean "your death will carry the attribute of certainty"), and since the textual evidence rules out the first meaning, then that statement cannot carry the first meaning.

We may have to agree to disagree on this for now. I am merely trying to give an answer to your OP from an orthodox Christian perspective. I am not trying to persuade you.

Debate is a form of persuasion, assuming that the person you're speaking to is intellectually honest.

Fair enough. In that regard I am trying to persuade you.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 03, 2012, 06:23:14 PM
1. If Adam was immortal with the possibility of being made mortal, then on the day he eats of the tree he will surely die (ie he will be made mortal and the process of death will begin).

2. If Adam was mortal with the possibility of being made immortal, then on the day he eats of the tree he will surely die (ie his mortality will be locked in, and his death is certain).

That sounds like a bit of a stretch of the language here. If the writer had meant to convey the inevitability of death rather than death itself, wouldn't it have been more clear to say something like "In the day that you eat of it, you shall seal your fate and one day you will die"?

Do you speak or read Hebrew or know someone who does? I would be interested to know if any of the ancient Hebrew-speaking people interpreted this text the way you propose. Perhaps an interpretation is given in the Jewish Talmud.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: One Above All on March 03, 2012, 09:04:34 PM
I disagree with you that that is the only way my assertion makes sense. I'll explain.

We both agree the Bible makes no claim about Adam's mortal state. So he could have been immortal with the possibility of being made mortal, or he could have been mortal with the possibility of being made immortal. Either way, the assertion makes sense....
<snip>

But here's the thing - neither one is supported by the Bible. In fact, I think I can probably find some verses that say the exact opposite. My interpretation makes sense because it's supported by the claim that they would die.
EDIT: I just remembered something. Remember that YHWH had an angel with a flaming sword guard the tree of life so that A&E wouldn't become like "them"[1] and live forever?

Excellent. I look forward to both the challenges and advantages that will bring.

I wish to correct my statement: atheists in general (myself not included) know the Bible, Qur'an and such better than the believers.

I disagree. My logic does not suggests the Yoda thing. My logic would suggest that "Yoda, I am" and "I am Yoda" are syntatically different but substantially equivalent. My logic would also suggest that "in the day you eat of it you will surely die" does not have to mean "you will die that day" (eg, it may mean "your death will carry the attribute of certainty"), and since the textual evidence rules out the first meaning, then that statement cannot carry the first meaning.

One is merely a rewording of the other, which is why I compared it to the way Yoda speaks. It's not even a rewording that actually changes anything, like the way Yoda speaks.
 1. Yup. There are other gods, according to the Bible.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Graybeard on March 10, 2012, 07:55:06 AM
the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?
god (supposedly) never lies, correct?
god says, and i quote (from my mom's bible):

Quote
in the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?

In the day they ate of the tree did their death become sure?
Please note that "did their death become sure?" is a syntax with a sell-by date of 1611.
That is a strange way of asking, "Were they immortal before eating and were they mortal thereafter?" The answer to both is obviously, "Yes."

In the Bronze Age, Story-tellers were skilled people and were not idiots. They were the equivalent of the TV stars and script writers of today and there were just as many of them - they exist today in primitive societies and as "authors" in ours. Tell the story of jumping the shark and your career is over.

Why would anyone tell a story that goes along the lines of,
A: "Don't eat that, the very highest authorities all agree and have the greatest proof that it will kill you instantly."
B: "Bollocks! [eats great mouthfuls and passes it to partner who does likewise.] There, nothing happened!
[Enter Authority]
God(i): "Damn me! Why aren't you dead?... Oh well, let's get on with the story..."

Isn't it more likely that it would be,

God(ii): "That's it! I told you! You're mortal now. Here's the number of the local undertaker, you'll need him in 900 years time."

I really don't understand why people think differently, it's a story and, although anything can happen in a story, the story itself has to be internally consistent.

Genesis has internal inconsistencies as it is a story recounted by at least 4[1] people at different times and in different places. When compiling the versions, the editor thought it a good idea to bring the traditions together and therefore we see light created before the sun, man and woman created before Adam and Eve, animals in pairs and animals in sevens, etc, etc.

But the story of the Fall is coherent and consistent. And for that to be the case, "you shall surely die" must is to be understood as, "you will become mortal and eventually die."


 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis#Composition
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: raytech70 on March 24, 2012, 05:35:58 AM

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?

Literally, we are dying each minute as they tick by... yes, you and I are DYING.  Adam and Even lost their immortality when they chose to go to the "dark side" and as a result they immediately began to age-- a death taking place in slow-mo.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: kcrady on March 25, 2012, 12:53:34 PM
In the Bronze Age, Story-tellers were skilled people and were not idiots. They were the equivalent of the TV stars and script writers of today and there were just as many of them - they exist today in primitive societies and as "authors" in ours. Tell the story of jumping the shark and your career is over.

I'm skeptical of a hermeneutic of "the Biblical writers weren't idiots, therefore we should retcon their stories so they don't sound so idiotic."  For one thing, Yahweh repeats the Serpent's words verbatim in 3:22, acknowledging that the Serpent's claim was correct.  His worry is not that his humans will die, but that they won't--they could partake of the Tree of Life and complete their ascent to divinity.

We have no reason a priori to assume that Yahweh was meant to be portrayed any smarter than he actually appears in the narrative.  The idea that Yahweh is The Big-G God, superduper omnimax in every way, is a much later idea.  It should not be read into Genesis.  As has been shown earlier in this thread, the ancient Hebrew writers had no qualms about portraying Yahweh having a stable of demons ("lying spirits") he could send out to deceive people, or possess them Exorcist-style, as in the case of King Saul.  The "problem of evil" did not occur to them, because they had no difficulties with the idea of worshiping a deity who was a capricious tyrant modeled after the earthly rulers of their time and place.

Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that the ancient Israelites were a deeply incurious and retrograde culture, backward even by the standards of their own era.  Consider the following:

Quote
21Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;

 22Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

 23But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

This passage is talking about insects, differentiating which ones people are allowed to eat and which ones they weren't.  First, notice that the Israelites didn't bother to invent a word for "insect," even when using them as a food source.  Instead, they used clumsy phrasing.  "You know, those things that crawl and fly."  And somehow, they managed to develop customs around the eating of insects without ever looking at them close enough to realize that they have six legs.

This is a culture that banned all representational art, and (as demonstrated by Biblical cosmology) possessed only the most rudimentary astronomy and mathematics.  "If a circular basin is ten cubits across, how big around is it?  Meh, 30 cubits is close enough.  Pi=3." (I Kings 7:23-26).  On the other hand, see this counter-argument (http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm).  On the other, other hand, the counter-argument is actually making the case for the cleverness of the Phoenicians, whom the Israelites had to hire to create the Temple and its furnishings.  The fact that they hired Ba'al-worshiping Pagans to build their holy Temple of Yahweh and its sacred furnishings is strong evidence that they could not have done the work themselves.  Especially since this takes place during the wildly-exaggerated glory days of Solomon, who was supposedly the richest, wisest, most awesomesauce king in the whole world.  In other words: even when writing fanciful accounts of the mighty (known-)world-straddling empire they (supposedly) had in the Good Old Days, the Hebrew scribes couldn't even imagine that their ancestors could craft a large bronze bowl on their own. 

To write that their ancestors once ruled everything from the Nile to the Euphrates and had an army numbering more than a million[1]--the scribes could get away with that.  To portray their ancestors as artisans capable of building a great temple and impressive furnishings for themselves--too far-fetched.  Easier to claim that one of their ancient leaders once told the Sun to stay still in the sky until their army finished massacring their enemies!

Nutshell: we shouldn't be too quick to assume that the ancient Israelite scribes were especially intelligent, or that they intended to portray Yahweh as either intelligent or honest.
 1. See II Samuel 24:1-10 and I Chronicles 21:1-4.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: jaimehlers on March 25, 2012, 02:39:26 PM
Also, the counter-argument kcrady linked to (http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm) has a problem.  It makes the assumption that when that verse talks about the circumference of the bowl, it's referring to the inner circumference.  Yet the Bible verse itself specifically says that a line of 30 cubits went around it.  What that means is, in order to measure the bowl, they would have had to hold the rope around the inside of the bowl, rather than the outside.  Now, given that it's easier to press your hand flat (palm up) against something than to hold it palm down and press inward against something (the arm doesn't bend that way very well), it doesn't make much sense to measure from the inside like that.

So here's what I think happened.  The Hebrew priests are probably the ones who came up with those measurements (but all they specified was 10 cubits across, 30 cubits around, 5 cubits high), and they instructed this Phoenician to make their fancy bowl to those dimensions.  I'm assuming that this Phoenician was reasonably experienced in making things like this, meaning he almost certainly would have planned it out first.  Given that, he would have recognized the problems with the dimensions the priests gave him.  He may have talked to the priests (in which case he probably got told in no uncertain terms that YHWH gave those measurements and he wasn't being paid to tell them that their god was wrong), but either way, it sounds like he came up with a way to make those arbitrary measurements work, by using the inner circumference to measure the 30 cubits.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: naemhni on March 25, 2012, 02:50:48 PM
Also, the counter-argument kcrady brought up has a problem.  It makes the assumption that when that verse talks about the circumference of the bowl, it's referring to the inner circumference.

The scripture cited also says that the material of the bowl was a "handbreadth thick".  However, according to this line of reasoning, the difference between the outer and inner circumferences of the bowl would have to be 1.4 cubits (that is, 30 cubits for the inner circumference, 31.4 cubits for the outer circumference), which is far larger than a handbreadth.  Kcrady is right.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: kaziglu bey on March 25, 2012, 03:06:24 PM
Also, the counter-argument kcrady brought up has a problem.

The situation you described could be accurate[1], but I don't think that it really present a problem for kcrady's argument. In fact, it lends further support to it, since it demonstrates again that the Bible writers were backwards morons, even by the standards of the time. Which really, if you think about it, is pretty sad. The standards of that time weren't exactly high. We're talking about a civilization to whom iron chariots were seriously advanced technology[2].
 1.  At least, in as much as ancient fiction can be accurate
 2. As in, more advanced than God
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: jaimehlers on March 25, 2012, 03:51:52 PM
Oh, bah, let me fix that.  I meant the counter-argument he linked to.  I was actually trying to lend kcrady's argument additional support.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: kaziglu bey on March 25, 2012, 04:14:29 PM
Oh, bah, let me fix that.  I meant the counter-argument he linked to.  I was actually trying to lend kcrady's argument additional support.

Thanks for clarifying. Sorry that I misunderstood.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2012, 08:27:01 AM
Literally, we are dying each minute as they tick by... yes, you and I are DYING. 

That sounds like bullshit to me.  Please explain that.  Use biology.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Azdgari on March 26, 2012, 08:34:55 AM
Screw, I suspect he means that because every day we are getting one day closer to the day we die, we must be "dying" from the day we're born.

Makes "dying" kind of a useless term, IMO.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2012, 10:01:26 AM
I think that is what he probably means too.  As if we are candles burning down.  But I hope that his attempt to explain will lead him to understand what a stupid idea it is.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: jaimehlers on March 26, 2012, 01:53:24 PM
Given that it suggests that a person has a day they're destined to die, I'm inclined to agree.

The only time we start dying is when the body starts shutting itself down.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: Azdgari on March 26, 2012, 02:48:55 PM
^^ Exactly.  It's got that wierd fatalism/predestination premise to it.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on March 27, 2012, 06:36:50 AM
there was a guy - i can't remember if it was here or at a xian forum - who said something about god knowing exactly how many heart beats were left in my corpse.  I thought that was weird.  He saw people as corpses walking around by the power of god. I think there was something wrong with him.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: kaziglu bey on March 27, 2012, 06:56:41 AM
there was a guy - i can't remember if it was here or at a xian forum - who said something about god knowing exactly how many heart beats were left in my corpse.  I thought that was weird.  He saw people as corpses walking around by the power of god. I think there was something wrong with him.
That's a view of Christianity that I have never heard before. The "God as a Necromancer" version. Do followers refer to themselves as "God's Inferi" or "The Salvation Zombie Army"? Perhaps "Ghouls for God", or "Jehovah's Dead Witnesses"? The "Church of Jesus Christ of Re-animated Corpses"? "The Roman Cadaver Church"? Ok, enough bad puns, but seriously, did this person identify themselves as some particular branch of Christianity? I would like to be able to research into this interpretation of Christianity so that it can be properly mocked and ridiculed.
Title: Re: god lies, lucifer tells the truth
Post by: screwtape on March 27, 2012, 09:11:45 AM
did this person identify themselves as some particular branch of Christianity?

some flavor of protestant.  I do not think what he was saying was dogma.  I think it was an attempt at an emotional appeal to scare me into religion.  They do that a lot.