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Dead Zone => The Bottomless Pit => Topic started by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 09:40:41 PM

Title: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 09:40:41 PM
Please ask, I love Jesus and I love talking about Him.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: jetson on March 14, 2010, 09:45:53 PM
Did Jesus ever claim that he was divine? 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 09:48:44 PM
Yes.

He clearly believed himself to be the Son of God, the promised Messiah, pre existing the worlds, worthy of worship, sinless, to be glorified eternally.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 14, 2010, 09:51:43 PM
Is this a topic about our favorite fictional characters?   I'm an Agatha Christie fan.  Miss Marple especially.  I like takling about her.  Ask me any questions you want about her.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 09:53:15 PM
Can she save you, give you eternal life, and is she real?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 14, 2010, 09:53:53 PM
Yes.

He clearly believed himself to be the Son of God, the promised Messiah, pre existing the worlds, worthy of worship, sinless, to be glorified eternally.
Show me a verse from the bible where Jesus himself claims to be God.  Not "Son Of God" or "Messiah" ... God.  Not once does Jesus make the claim for himself.  
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 14, 2010, 09:54:44 PM
Can she save you, give you eternal life, and is she real?
I never claimed she could.  But that's not really the point I was making, is it?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 09:55:39 PM
Show me a verse from the bible where Jesus himself claims to be God.  Not "Son Of God" or "Messiah" ... God.  Not once does Jesus make the claim for himself.  
The question posed regarded whether Jesus claimed to be divine. Jesus made many claims about His divinity.

You are asking me to show Jesus making the claim to be God.

What is God?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 09:55:58 PM
I never claimed she could.  But that's not really the point I was making, is it?
You were making an irrelevant point.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 14, 2010, 09:59:18 PM
The question posed regarded whether Jesus claimed to be divine. Jesus made many claims about His divinity.

You are asking me to show Jesus making the claim to be God.

What is God?
Instead of skirting the issue, provide the proof.  You said Jesus made such a claim.  Prove it.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Barracuda on March 14, 2010, 10:01:20 PM
I have a question. Christians maintain the belief that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was the key to God's forgiveness of human sin and salvation. Why, exactly, did these events have to occur in order for God to forgive humans of anything? What is the relevance of:
a) the life, death, and resurrection of a divine entity manifested in the flesh (Jesus), to

b) A God's his attitude towards human sin.

'Cause honestly, I see absolutely no causal relevance of a) to b). If God wanted to forgive humans, why didn't he just do it, why were the events described in a) a prerequisite to forgiveness?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 14, 2010, 10:01:35 PM
I never claimed she could.  But that's not really the point I was making, is it?
You were making an irrelevant point.
Actually my point is very relevant.  I assumed that since you were talking about your favorite fictional character, I could talk about mine.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kin hell on March 14, 2010, 10:02:22 PM
Quote
When he said we were trying to make a fool of him, I could only murmur that the Creator had beat us to it.   

Chase, Ilka
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: none on March 14, 2010, 10:04:16 PM
Please ask, I love Jesus and I love talking about Him.
will there ever be a single shred of physical evidence that will every be found to substantiate the existence of Jesus as a real person?
did the authors who wrote texts that are considered psuedographica lie about the existence of Jesus?
is there difference between the evidence for the existence of Santa or Jesus?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 14, 2010, 10:05:51 PM
will there ever be a single shred of physical evidence that will every be found to substantiate the existence of Jesus as a real person?
did the authors who wrote texts that are considered psuedographica lie about the existence of Jesus?
is there difference between the evidence for the existence of Santa or Jesus?
I thought my way of asking that question was more fun. :)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: jetson on March 14, 2010, 10:07:48 PM
Yes.

He clearly believed himself to be the Son of God, the promised Messiah, pre existing the worlds, worthy of worship, sinless, to be glorified eternally.

I would like you to show me any text where Jesus himself claimed to be divine.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kindred on March 14, 2010, 10:23:58 PM
Where are the facts? Where are the hypotheses? Where are the proofs? Where are the opposing hypotheses? Where are the theories? Opposing theories? Established laws? Etc.

For this to be valid, we need to look at it at the skeptic side and try to see where the evidence leads us. You, on the other hand, have made an assumption and seek to support that assumption. That is intellectual dishonesty right there.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 10:28:32 PM
will there ever be a single shred of physical evidence that will every be found to substantiate the existence of Jesus as a real person?
did the authors who wrote texts that are considered psuedographica lie about the existence of Jesus?
is there difference between the evidence for the existence of Santa or Jesus?
You need to be much more specific.

What is your definition of evidence? Do you believe a man named Jesus didn't exist?

Which pseudographical texts are you talking about?

Which Jesus and which Santa Claus?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 10:29:11 PM
Where are the facts? Where are the hypotheses? Where are the proofs? Where are the opposing hypotheses? Where are the theories? Opposing theories? Established laws? Etc.

For this to be valid, we need to look at it at the skeptic side and try to see where the evidence leads us. You, on the other hand, have made an assumption and seek to support that assumption. That is intellectual dishonesty right there.
You're in a hurry to accuse me of things. No worry.

This thread is not about all those things, it's about Jesus.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 10:29:49 PM
I would like you to show me any text where Jesus himself claimed to be divine.
Jesus claimed to exist before the world was made, and called God his Father.

How is that not a claim to divinity?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 10:30:25 PM
Actually my point is very relevant.  I assumed that since you were talking about your favorite fictional character, I could talk about mine.
Oh, then it was a simple mistake. I'm not talking about a fictional character.

Do you see now how your point was irrelevant to this thread?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 10:31:14 PM
Instead of skirting the issue, provide the proof.  You said Jesus made such a claim.  Prove it.
I said that Jesus claimed to be divine. Do you want me to prove it?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: none on March 14, 2010, 10:40:28 PM
will there ever be a single shred of physical evidence that will every be found to substantiate the existence of Jesus as a real person?
did the authors who wrote texts that are considered psuedographica lie about the existence of Jesus?
is there difference between the evidence for the existence of Santa or Jesus?
You need to be much more specific.

What is your definition of evidence? Do you believe a man named Jesus didn't exist?

Which pseudographical texts are you talking about?

Which Jesus and which Santa Claus?
I don't have the ignorance nor the lack of resources that you have therefore I cannot answer your questions, because I don't understand them.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Brakeman on March 14, 2010, 10:44:02 PM
oh oh Mr. Kotter!
I have a question for you. Did Uzzah go to hell?

(2cd Samuel 6:6-8)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kindred on March 14, 2010, 10:53:31 PM
How can we talk about Jesus if you do not define the terms? What is "divine" by YOUR definition? We need stipulated meanings. We need a goalpost so to say by which to measure whether or not you are actually providing evidence.

If we have to take on faith, than I guess anything you can think of is true. Since all you need is faith. Also, the mentally ill aren't really ill. We just don't have the faith, to believe them. :shrug
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Sky on March 14, 2010, 10:54:29 PM
Did Jesus wear sandals?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 11:21:43 PM
How can we talk about Jesus if you do not define the terms? What is "divine" by YOUR definition?
Divine to me is having the same essence as the Creator. Essence meaning essential characteristic, or identity. You could say that Jesus and the Creator are the same person, for instance.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 11:22:21 PM
Did Jesus wear sandals?
That seems reasonable, sandals were common for the time and place. John the Baptist talked about his sandals too.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bahramthered on March 14, 2010, 11:34:31 PM
Instead of skirting the issue, provide the proof.  You said Jesus made such a claim.  Prove it.
I said that Jesus claimed to be divine. Do you want me to prove it?

Yes, we want that. And prove it will require more than bible quotes since we atheists don't consider those to be the best evidence.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 11:36:50 PM
Yes, we want that. And prove it will require more than bible quotes since we atheists don't consider those to be the best evidence.
Ok.

Jesus convinced many people that he was divine. Consensus forms a type of evidence, and therefore there is evidence that Jesus is divine.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bahramthered on March 14, 2010, 11:42:07 PM
Yes, we want that. And prove it will require more than bible quotes since we atheists don't consider those to be the best evidence.
Ok.

Jesus convinced many people that he was divine. Consensus forms a type of evidence, and therefore there is evidence that Jesus is divine.

LOL

1; Consensus is not evidence. People once believed the earth was flat. Does this mean that every cult who ever existed is correct because there was a consensuses of their members?

2; There is not historical evidence of any one that is claimed to have ever meet jebus. How do fictional people count for consensus?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 11:43:47 PM
LOL

1; Consensus is not evidence. People once believed the earth was flat. Does this mean that every cult who ever existed is correct because there was a consensuses of their members?

2; There is not historical evidence of any one that is claimed to have ever meet jebus. How do fictional people count for consensus?
Consensus is a type of evidence, if it weren't then atheists wouldn't commonly argue that evolution is more likely true since there is a consensus in the scientific community that it is true. It is either good or bad evidence depending on the people forming the consensus, but it is evidence. You would do well to recognize this.

The historical evidence of people having met Jesus are the Gospels of the New Testament, and the references to persons in other parts of the New Testament. It would be extraordinary for people to agree as a group to write about a person claimed to be real if that person was not actually real.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Amatacchiero on March 14, 2010, 11:47:48 PM
Yea but that consensus is based on evidence 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bahramthered on March 14, 2010, 11:48:13 PM
No, modern science stands on being testable. By anyone who has the skills, regardless of their religion. The fact that their are over 5 billion people who do not believe your religion should be compelling evidence under your rules. Or the fact that there's 40,000 different sects fighting about what the true faith is..


The bible has no historical evidence. It falls roughly in the same category as the sherock holmes stories. We know the place and some of the back ground historically, but the story and it's results have no place in history. Why? They didn't happen.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 11:50:18 PM
Yea but that consensus is based on evidence 
The consensus of belief in Jesus was also based on evidence.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 11:51:34 PM
No, modern science stands on being testable.
Modern science is a very large thing, some of it is testable and some is not.

Quote
By anyone who has the skills, regardless of their religion. The fact that their are over 5 billion people who do not believe your religion should be compelling evidence under your rules. Or the fact that there's 40,000 different sects fighting about what the true faith is..
Strangely, you just affirmed my reasoning that consensus is a type of evidence. It evinces a reasonable conclusion, does it not?

Quote
The bible has no historical evidence
The Bible is a large book, are you saying you don't believe that any of the things that are recounted in the Bible happened?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Amatacchiero on March 14, 2010, 11:52:23 PM
Yea but that consensus is based on evidence 
The consensus of belief in Jesus was also based on evidence.
Which was?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 14, 2010, 11:54:37 PM
Which was?
They believed that he had done wonders that no ordinary man could do.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Amatacchiero on March 14, 2010, 11:59:54 PM
Which was?
They believed that he had done wonders that no ordinary man could do.
Some convincing stuff right there.

Seriously, that's not evidence.   
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 12:00:31 AM
Seriously, that's not evidence.   
No, it is evidence. It's just not convincing evidence to you. And you aren't really at fault, we've only looked at the surface.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Astreja on March 15, 2010, 12:01:33 AM
They believed that he had done wonders that no ordinary man could do.

That's what the stories said.  We don't know for sure that the 12 disciples existed, and if they experienced what the Gospels said they experienced.  It's strongly suspected that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John were not actually written by Matthew, Mark or John, but written some decades later and attributed to them.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 12:02:50 AM
That's what the stories said.  We don't know for sure that the 12 disciples existed, and if they experienced what the Gospels said they experienced.  It's strongly suspected that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John were not actually written by Matthew, Mark or John, but written some decades later and attributed to them.
Well, do you have evidence that the 12 disciples did not exist? Do you have evidence that the Gospels were not written by people in a position to speak about the events?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Astreja on March 15, 2010, 12:21:40 AM
Well, do you have evidence that the 12 disciples did not exist? Do you have evidence that the Gospels were not written by people in a position to speak about the events?

Let's start with the Gospel of Mark.  The text itself does not indicate that it was written by Mark; in fact, it was not attributed to Mark until sometime in the 2nd century.

There are also suggestions in the texts that the stories were written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.  If Jesus supposedly died circa 30 CE, then the authors were probably not eye witnesses.  Life expectancy was not good in that time and place -- Somewhere in the area of 40 years -- and someone who had been an adult in the supposed time of Jesus would be long dead before the destruction of the Temple.

There's also the heavy supernatural element of the stories.  I'm simply not inclined to take as gospel truth (pun definitely intended) a group of stories that talk about virgin births, people coming back from the dead, and zombies roaming the streets of Jerusalem during a three-hour darkness.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Aaron123 on March 15, 2010, 12:22:13 AM
The historical evidence of people having met Jesus are the Gospels of the New Testament, and the references to persons in other parts of the New Testament. It would be extraordinary for people to agree as a group to write about a person claimed to be real if that person was not actually real.

Do you really not see the circular logic here?  You're just saying that Jesus is real because he's in the bible.

This picture can illustrate it better than I can say it.

(http://proudatheists.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/break-the-cycle.jpg)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 12:33:22 AM
Let's start with the Gospel of Mark.  The text itself does not indicate that it was written by Mark; in fact, it was not attributed to Mark until sometime in the 2nd century.
Why does a different author necessarily make the text untrue? As you say, there is no author claimed. If it was written by 2 other people, or 30 other people, what's the problem?

Quote
There are also suggestions in the texts that the stories were written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.
Such as?

 
Quote
If Jesus supposedly died circa 30 CE, then the authors were probably not eye witnesses.
Why do you say that?

Quote
There's also the heavy supernatural element of the stories.  I'm simply not inclined to take as gospel truth
I wouldn't either. But I'd also not reject it a priori.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 12:34:41 AM
Do you really not see the circular logic here?  You're just saying that Jesus is real because he's in the bible.
Actually I'm saying:

Jesus is real, because people claim he was real, and wrote books about their claims.
It is too extraordinary for me to think that their claims are entirely invalid.
So it is reasonable to think that Jesus existed, and that they thought He was divine.

It doesn't mean he actually was divine, I was just establishing that he existed, and that people thought he was divine.

Good picture though :D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 15, 2010, 01:05:48 AM
Actually my point is very relevant.  I assumed that since you were talking about your favorite fictional character, I could talk about mine.
Oh, then it was a simple mistake. I'm not talking about a fictional character.

Do you see now how your point was irrelevant to this thread?

Jesus, was a fictional character and you are talking about him. Thus you are talking about a fictional character. Unless, you have some proof thousands of archeologists, geologists, and linguists have missed....
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 01:07:31 AM
Jesus, was a fictional character and you are talking about him. Thus you are talking about a fictional character. Unless, you have some proof thousands of archeologists, geologists, and linguists have missed....
Well you speak of scientists, so I'm sure you know that to prove something takes lots of time and energy. Since this conversation has only been going on for a few hours, how do you expect me to have proved Jesus already?

It's going to take time, and attention, and lots of clarifications and discourse along the way. If you're not up for finding the truth about Jesus with me, then feel free to withhold your comments. :) I don't mind.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 15, 2010, 01:10:02 AM
Yes, we want that. And prove it will require more than bible quotes since we atheists don't consider those to be the best evidence.
Ok.

Jesus convinced many people that he was divine. Consensus forms a type of evidence, and therefore there is evidence that Jesus is divine.

Consensus is not evidence. There is a whole religion that denies Jesus ever existed. Oddly enough it is the decendants of the people who would have known whether or not he existed. So, I take it I can safely say that Jesus did not exist, because the consensus among the Jewish is that he did not.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 15, 2010, 01:10:38 AM
Jesus, was a fictional character and you are talking about him. Thus you are talking about a fictional character. Unless, you have some proof thousands of archeologists, geologists, and linguists have missed....
Well you speak of scientists, so I'm sure you know that to prove something takes lots of time and energy. Since this conversation has only been going on for a few hours, how do you expect me to have proved Jesus already?

It's going to take time, and attention, and lots of clarifications and discourse along the way. If you're not up for finding the truth about Jesus with me, then feel free to withhold your comments. :) I don't mind.

Nice, you can stfu as well.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 01:11:25 AM
Way to be overtly hostile for no reason. I think I might go to sleep, as it's late here.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 15, 2010, 01:26:26 AM
Quote
feel free to withhold your comments.  I don't mind

You may prefer covert ops. But, I prefer guns blazing. It seems more honest somehow.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 01:32:35 AM
I guess if you had actually affected me emotionally then I might feel some aggression, but you have not and I do not. So I'll stick to being civil and you can stick to being unnecessarily aggressive. After all, if you have no reason to use your brain, use your mouth or fists!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 15, 2010, 01:35:26 AM
I guess if you had actually affected me emotionally then I might feel some aggression, but you have not and I do not. So I'll stick to being civil and you can stick to being unnecessarily aggressive. After all, if you have no reason to use your brain, use your mouth or fists!

Fortunately for me, arguing with you requires little thought.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kin hell on March 15, 2010, 01:41:15 AM



Don’t argue with a fool. The spectators can’t tell the difference.

Every absurdity has a champion who will defend it, this one is well named.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 15, 2010, 01:50:36 AM



Don’t argue with a fool. The spectators can’t tell the difference.

Every absurdity has a champion who will defend it, this one is well named.



I can't argue that.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 15, 2010, 03:50:48 AM
Fool:
There has never ever been any historicity for a biblical Jesus person.
Below are two links that will take you too other info on the subject that I have posted up over my time here, it is extensive.
There are also links within links, a lot of reading, but worth it, if you respect the truth.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=10245.msg232797#msg232797
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=10245.msg232798#msg232798
If you have information the could prove otherwise then do feel free to put it forward.
However I do think you will find it has already be covered.

But please please do try, I/we (the WWGHA members) do like a laugh.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: natlegend on March 15, 2010, 04:06:15 AM
Quote
Did Jesus wear sandals?

Quote
That seems reasonable, sandals were common for the time and place. John the Baptist talked about his sandals too.

Ooh ooh, what size does he wear? Cos I missed his birthday last year and need to get him something pronto!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: anthony_retford on March 15, 2010, 04:39:08 AM
Please ask, I love Jesus and I love talking about Him.

How can you love something you have never seen? What sort of love is this? Aren't you just enamoured by pictures and words? You cannot love someone you have not had any contact with. Name me one person in this world you have never seen or heard from that you "love"? If you can't do this then why do you claim to "love" your Jesus? Why should anyone not believe you are delusional?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Joseph on March 15, 2010, 04:41:14 AM
Instead of skirting the issue, provide the proof.  You said Jesus made such a claim.  Prove it.
I said that Jesus claimed to be divine. Do you want me to prove it?

Yes, we want that. And prove it will require more than bible quotes since we atheists don't consider those to be the best evidence.

It's not possible to prove God outside the bible since Jesus as the name of God is also from the bible.

 If someone proves God outside the bible where will be the link? How will one tell whether it's Jesus or another?

By refuting the scriptures, the Atheists have ligatured their faculty of ever knowing God. No wonder they are atheists.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ksm on March 15, 2010, 05:17:30 AM
Fool, if you are going to talk about "Jesus" can you at least take the trouble to his name right?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: jetson on March 15, 2010, 06:35:49 AM
Fool, I asked you a specific question about Jesus, and you have not provided me a single example of Jesus calling himself divine.

I believe Jesus was a real person who walked the earth 2,000 years ago.  I believe he brought a message of keeping Gods laws.  I believe he was interested in teaching people to love their neighbor and honor God.

I do not believe the he considered himself God, and I would like you to answer the question.  Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 15, 2010, 06:46:12 AM
It's not possible to prove God outside the bible since Jesus as the name of God is also from the bible.
It's not possible to prove god/jesus with the bible either, as subjective information cannot be deemed evidence. Could you prove Harry Potter, James Bond, or Winnie the Pooh with the books written about them.
Get serious please and think!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Bad Pear on March 15, 2010, 07:38:48 AM
I do like the name that he (the OP) has chosen, It's very efficient. You can address him properly and descriptively with a single word.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 15, 2010, 07:48:48 AM
OP, did jesus have a rectum, and did he poop? If he did, was it always correct solid, tube-shaped poo or did he sometimes get the runs? Was he ever out of commission for a day or two, not able to do miracles because he was tied up at the hole in the ground? Additonal, did he ever smell like faeces?   

Thanks for this thread! I have so many questions!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 15, 2010, 09:20:42 AM
Actually my point is very relevant.  I assumed that since you were talking about your favorite fictional character, I could talk about mine.
Oh, then it was a simple mistake. I'm not talking about a fictional character.

Do you see now how your point was irrelevant to this thread?
There are no contemporary sources for the existence of the biblical Jesus that corroborate the biblical narrative.  It's no different than any other stories written about mythological gods and heroes who never existed. 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 15, 2010, 09:39:43 AM
The historical evidence of people having met Jesus are the Gospels of the New Testament, and the references to persons in other parts of the New Testament. It would be extraordinary for people to agree as a group to write about a person claimed to be real if that person was not actually real.
It would not be extraordinary if those people were attempting to promote their own agenda, such as the spread of their religion.

 The bible is not historical evidence of the reality of a person named Jesus unless you have evidence from contemporary outside sources that the biblical narrative is correct.  Your reasoning is circular.  What you are in essence saying is "The bible says that Jesus is real, so Jesus is real because the bible says so." 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: velkyn on March 15, 2010, 12:15:44 PM
It's not possible to prove God outside the bible since Jesus as the name of God is also from the bible.
 If someone proves God outside the bible where will be the link? How will one tell whether it's Jesus or another?
By refuting the scriptures, the Atheists have ligatured their faculty of ever knowing God. No wonder they are atheists.
"ligatured"?  I'm curious if you can explain what you mean. I know what "ligature" means.  I suspect you don't.

If I have evidence to show that the Christian bible is untrue, and I can since there is no evidence for any of the unique events claimed in it, I have indeed shown that there is a reason to disbelieve any claim by it and those who claim to follow its god.  If you wish to claim that your god is something different so you don't have to deal with the problems of the bible, that's no suprise.  Most theists want to invent their own god so they can be sure it agrees with them. 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 15, 2010, 12:36:23 PM
Show me a verse from the bible where Jesus himself claims to be God.  Not "Son Of God" or "Messiah" ... God.  Not once does Jesus make the claim for himself. 
The question posed regarded whether Jesus claimed to be divine. Jesus made many claims about His divinity.

Jesus actually didn't make any claims. There's no book in the Bible written by Jesus.  It's all books about Jesus, and what he apparently stated to people who were there but in actuality wasn't.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 15, 2010, 12:42:40 PM
Jesus is real, because people claim he was real, and wrote books about their claims.

The Easter Bunny must be real, too then by this logic. I mean, doesn't the Easter bunny originate with Eostre, which in its mythology had a deity that was half or a whole rabbit? People believed this being existed, so, by your logic since people believed it, they wrote stories on it ('cause how else would we know about such an entity) it must be true.

Do you see how stupid what you said is? I doubt it.

Quote
It is too extraordinary for me to think that their claims are entirely invalid.

Do you say the same thing for everything else? You must live in such a wonderful world where extraordinary is absolute truth!

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Petey on March 15, 2010, 12:55:47 PM
Just one question for me.

When he said "Nobody fucks with the Jesus", did he mean that in a sexual or non-sexual manner?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Tealeaf on March 15, 2010, 01:00:31 PM
I have a question. Christians maintain the belief that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was the key to God's forgiveness of human sin and salvation. Why, exactly, did these events have to occur in order for God to forgive humans of anything? What is the relevance of:
a) the life, death, and resurrection of a divine entity manifested in the flesh (Jesus), to

b) A God's his attitude towards human sin.

'Cause honestly, I see absolutely no causal relevance of a) to b). If God wanted to forgive humans, why didn't he just do it, why were the events described in a) a prerequisite to forgiveness?

Fool replies to everything except this post. Funny that. It's the number one smoking hole in his little fantasy. It makes no sense.

What a cowardly fool.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 15, 2010, 03:43:49 PM
Just one question for me.

When he said "Nobody fucks with the Jesus", did he mean that in a sexual or non-sexual manner?

This is a tie-in to my rectum question.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 15, 2010, 03:56:27 PM
Please ask, I love Jesus and I love talking about Him.

Why was Jesus such a cunt?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Barracuda on March 15, 2010, 04:05:00 PM
Fool, since you asked us to ask you questions, I find it strange that you have ignored mine.

Here it is again if you missed it:

I have a question. Christians maintain the belief that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was the key to God's forgiveness of human sin and salvation. Why, exactly, did these events have to occur in order for God to forgive humans of anything? What is the relevance of:
a) the life, death, and resurrection of a divine entity manifested in the flesh (Jesus), to

b) A God's his attitude towards human sin.

'Cause honestly, I see absolutely no causal relevance of a) to b). If God wanted to forgive humans, why didn't he just do it, why were the events described in a) a prerequisite to forgiveness?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bgb on March 15, 2010, 04:25:23 PM
Me thinks the fool has run off with its tail between its ????
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 15, 2010, 04:27:21 PM
^^ No he's probably just busy on IGI telling people that homosexuals should be put to death.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: onlyonus on March 15, 2010, 04:36:43 PM
What did Jesus tell Thomas, that would have upset the deciples so much?
Yes, this is an agnostic question.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Tealeaf on March 15, 2010, 04:43:29 PM
Yes he's run off. But not forever. That's what's so annoying with these types; quite terrifying too. They are complete cowards. And they don't have a shred of integrity or honesty in them.

He's just been spoonfed with exactly what he asked for. At first he "answered" a specifically cherry-picked list of questions. By "answered" I mean addressed vaguely and unsatisfactory, or completely ignored in a haze of useless babble completely irrelevant to the question.

As I was reading through the responses to the OP, I came across the one I quoted a few posts above. I knew, in my heart(!), that Fool would not touch this; or if he did it'd be a long off topic rant filled with emotional make-believe. Surprise surprise, I was right.

That post embodies exactly what I have been railing on at for years. Jesus and the whole point of Christianity MAKES NO SENSE. It is NONsense. A god making up ways to kill himself to satisfy himself so he can forgive his own creations by his own standards....

That point alone utterly destroys Christianity. And it's the very thing every slimy, dishonest, weaseling, foolish, coward who tries to defend this shit absolutely refuses to address. The whole Christian religion is the biggest display of immorality I've ever seen. You can't believe it without being a liar, a coward, or just plain ignorant.

Why do you think Fool chose the name he did?

My theory is he got really fucked up on Christohol and decided that he'd been a fool all his life for not seeing the so obvious truth of the 2,000 year old zombie carpenter man-god hybrid.

Or he's just a really annoying troll.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: IAmFirst on March 15, 2010, 04:45:51 PM
Here's a question, Fool:

The conception of Mary was Immaculate, as noted in the Catholic Dogma. This proves that your god could wipe away original sin. Why send a human son to suffer one of the bloodiest and most immoral executions to forgive this sin when he's already wiped it away once?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: onlyonus on March 15, 2010, 05:00:55 PM
Does all this mean that I won't get an answer?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 06:46:30 PM
17 hours ago I left this thread to go to sleep, which by God's wisdom humbles me daily with its requirements. I have since eaten, gone to class, inspected a home that my wife and I might be purchasing, gone through the market district to make a grocery trip, and gone to the library to check out a book. Shortly I will be studying for my classes for the rest of the week.

I don't understand why some of you think that I am cowardly for not having the resources to attend to this thread twenty four hours a day, but I will do my best to answer the questions with time. You should probably also be aware that I have over twenty thousand posts on this site before the new forums took effect, and am approaching ten thousand posts on another atheist website. So, though I am a proud sinner who needs God's grace constantly to be a civil person, I'm not emotionally thin skinned or ignorant of your arguments.

So, give me the same grace you give yourselves, I'll reply as I am able.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: jetson on March 15, 2010, 07:15:28 PM
17 hours ago I left this thread to go to sleep, which by God's wisdom humbles me daily with its requirements. I have since eaten, gone to class, inspected a home that my wife and I might be purchasing, gone through the market district to make a grocery trip, and gone to the library to check out a book. Shortly I will be studying for my classes for the rest of the week.

I don't understand why some of you think that I am cowardly for not having the resources to attend to this thread twenty four hours a day, but I will do my best to answer the questions with time. You should probably also be aware that I have over twenty thousand posts on this site before the new forums took effect, and am approaching ten thousand posts on another atheist website. So, though I am a proud sinner who needs God's grace constantly to be a civil person, I'm not emotionally thin skinned or ignorant of your arguments.

So, give me the same grace you give yourselves, I'll reply as I am able.

Well, you picked an awesome forum name!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 15, 2010, 07:20:55 PM
So, give me the same grace you give yourselves, I'll reply as I am able.

Ok.

When you get around to answering them I have another question;


Did Jesus say that homosexuals should be put to death?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 15, 2010, 08:42:12 PM
Don't forget about jesus' rectum!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Azdgari on March 15, 2010, 09:12:29 PM
Don't forget about jesus' rectum!

I doubt he could if he tried.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Astreja on March 15, 2010, 10:33:47 PM
Let's start with the Gospel of Mark.  The text itself does not indicate that it was written by Mark; in fact, it was not attributed to Mark until sometime in the 2nd century.

Why does a different author necessarily make the text untrue? As you say, there is no author claimed. If it was written by 2 other people, or 30 other people, what's the problem?

Well, if the author or authors are unknown, the claim of the Gospels being eye-witness accounts becomes even more dubious.

Quote from: Astreja
There are also suggestions in the texts that the stories were written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.

Quote from: Fool
Such as?

Quote
"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." (Mark 13:2)

This is presented as a "prophesy" but it strongly suggests that Mark (or at least that section of Mark) was written after the Temple had already been destroyed.  A similar controversy exists regarding the dating of the book of Daniel, with some scholars claiming that the prophesies therein were composed after the events they supposedly predict.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 11:48:40 PM
Well, if the author or authors are unknown, the claim of the Gospels being eye-witness accounts becomes even more dubious.
Why do they have to be eye witness accounts? Historians and news reporters almost never actually witness what went on. Investigators write official reports all the time, having only done an investigation after the fact. If we assume that Luke wrote the book that bears his name, there is very little claim that he was an eyewitness to any of it. What was important was that he was surrounded by people that claimed they knew Jesus, and were convinced that Jesus was the Messiah, and Son of God.

Quote
This is presented as a "prophesy" but it strongly suggests that Mark (or at least that section of Mark) was written after the Temple had already been destroyed.  A similar controversy exists regarding the dating of the book of Daniel, with some scholars claiming that the prophesies therein were composed after the events they supposedly predict.
You mean because it's impossible to know the future?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 11:50:31 PM
It's not possible to prove God outside the bible since Jesus as the name of God is also from the bible.
If someone proves God outside the bible where will be the link? How will one tell whether it's Jesus or another?
By refuting the scriptures, the Atheists have ligatured their faculty of ever knowing God. No wonder they are atheists.
Well, we should probably stick to one train of thought. Trains are big and I can't mentally conceive of very many of them.

First, you assume that the atheists have [meaningfully] refuted Scriptures. But that's not true. So your argument is a bare assertion?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 11:51:28 PM
But please please do try, I/we (the WWGHA members) do like a laugh.
Since you're already prepared to laugh at me, I'll take your admonition to respect the truth as a rhetorical flourish.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 11:53:42 PM
How can you love something you have never seen? What sort of love is this? Aren't you just enamoured by pictures and words? You cannot love someone you have not had any contact with. Name me one person in this world you have never seen or heard from that you "love"? If you can't do this then why do you claim to "love" your Jesus? Why should anyone not believe you are delusional?
Good question. In the Bible, the prophets constantly talk about the consolation and comfort of the Holy Spirit, and about a life which begins when God seals the elect believer with the Holy Spirit. Essentially God promises to always be with the Christian. God has means of grace, such as a body of believers, and meditating on Scripture, and the living practice of all the Christians who have gone before. So in the only way that matters for this life, I have God with me. Before I had God with me, He had written me letters, detailed notes about His feelings and intentions concerning me and the rest of the world. You are, when you ask about seeing God, essentially telling me that all relationships are skin deep.

I don't think relationships are skin deep.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 15, 2010, 11:54:49 PM
Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?
I already answered this question.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=13232.msg292458#msg292458
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Zankuu on March 15, 2010, 11:56:57 PM
Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?
I already answered this question.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=13232.msg292458#msg292458

No, you didn't answer the question at all. jetson is asking where in the bible it says this, not whether it does or not. In other words, can you cite a verse that backs you up?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 12:04:31 AM
Matthew 2:11, The Magi worship Jesus.
Matthew 14:33, Disciples worship him saying "Truly you are the Son of God"
Matthew 28:9, Disciples worship him again, after the resurrection, falling at his feet and clasping him.

John 9:38, A man born blind is healed, and this man worships Jesus.

The coup de grace:

Mt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
Mt 4:2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
Mt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ 14 ’”
Mt 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ 15 ’”
Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ 16 ’”
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ 17 ’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Zankuu on March 16, 2010, 12:10:29 AM
Heh. There is no need to dance around the subject.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 12:14:00 AM
Oh, I thought I was dancing on the point. I guess you missed my logic.

Jesus says to Satan that only the LORD is appropriate to worship.
Jesus continuously receives worship.

How are your deductive powers today?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Zankuu on March 16, 2010, 12:22:18 AM
Jesus says to Satan that only the LORD is appropriate to worship.
Baal was worshipped in the Bible.
-----------------------------------------------
Therefore, Baal is LORD.

See how that reasoning doesn't work?


Fool, I believe jetson wants it straight from the horses' mouth, so to speak. So have you come across any scripture that directly shows Jesus making a claim of divinity? It's a simple yes or no question. If yes, then please cite the verse.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Joseph on March 16, 2010, 01:11:33 AM
Heh. There is no need to dance around the subject.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

Here is one:

Exod. [3:14] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'"

John. [8:58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kevyrat69 on March 16, 2010, 01:14:30 AM
Joseph, that is OT not the NT so since Christians only go by the new testament then that one wouldn't count.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kevyrat69 on March 16, 2010, 01:17:29 AM
You FOOL!!!! ahem.... I have been wanting to do that since I saw the name hehehe

Please read this piece of work and you too  Joseph.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Joseph on March 16, 2010, 01:23:17 AM
Joseph, that is OT not the NT so since Christians only go by the new testament then that one wouldn't count.

Not really coz the NT makes several references to OT. What about those references? Should they be editted?

Like Hebrews 1:10.

And, "Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of thy hands;


and

Psalms 102:25.

Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 16, 2010, 04:01:32 AM
But please please do try, I/we (the WWGHA members) do like a laugh.
Since you're already prepared to laugh at me, I'll take your admonition to respect the truth as a rhetorical flourish.
Strawman, You have obviously shown you have no intention to seek the truth, You also know the reason why I would say I enjoy a laugh, as you have no evidence to put forward.
I have posted the links again, if you every wish to educate yourself to the truth.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=10245.msg232797#msg232797
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=10245.msg232798#msg232798
There is no historicity for a biblical Jesus person.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 16, 2010, 04:12:22 AM
Heh. There is no need to dance around the subject.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

Here is one:

Exod. [3:14] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'"

John. [8:58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
I don't see it sorry, Jesus refers to a third person, Who we will call I AM but he does not say it is himself, all Jetson is asking is "Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?" that can be anywhere OT or NT.
Can anybody answer it?
Will anybody answer it?
We've had several failed attempts.
Come on you xians.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: natlegend on March 16, 2010, 04:53:12 AM
jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question.

Fool, concede defeat.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: SherB on March 16, 2010, 05:13:09 AM
Fool, I asked you a specific question about Jesus, and you have not provided me a single example of Jesus calling himself divine.

I believe Jesus was a real person who walked the earth 2,000 years ago.  I believe he brought a message of keeping Gods laws.  I believe he was interested in teaching people to love their neighbor and honor God.

I do not believe the he considered himself God, and I would like you to answer the question.  Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

Of course Jesus is a real person. You know how I know? Because I've seen him and talked to him---yeah buddy! I went out and asked him if he was divine, though, and really couldn't tell what he said since I don't speak Spanish. But he's doing a great job on my yard, for whatever that's worth. And actually, it's probably worth a lot more than some silly fairy tale written 2000 years ago about a bunch of mythological people. So for those of you christians who have to meet jesus, come on over to my house and we can all have a cold one. Si?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Joseph on March 16, 2010, 05:50:35 AM
Heh. There is no need to dance around the subject.

jetson's question was: Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?

None of the scripture you supplied answered his question. If you can't find a passage that suggests Jesus himself made a claim of divinity, then simply and honestly concede the point. Hell, even an "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

Here is one:

Exod. [3:14] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, `I AM has sent me to you.'"

John. [8:58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
I don't see it sorry, Jesus refers to a third person, Who we will call I AM but he does not say it is himself, all Jetson is asking is "Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?" that can be anywhere OT or NT.
Can anybody answer it?
Will anybody answer it?
We've had several failed attempts.
Come on you xians.

That was a blatant denial. What about this one?

John 10:30 'I and the Father are one." 

John [17:21]  that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John [17:23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kevyrat69 on March 16, 2010, 06:10:47 AM
Joseph, that is OT not the NT so since Christians only go by the new testament then that one wouldn't count.

Not really coz the NT makes several references to OT. What about those references? Should they be editted?

Like Hebrews 1:10.

And, "Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of thy hands;

What does that mean He didst found the earth in the beginning?  I thought he created the earth.  This makes it sound like he found it.


and

Psalms 102:25.

Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: jetson on March 16, 2010, 06:34:20 AM
Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?
I already answered this question.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=13232.msg292458#msg292458

No, you didn't answer it at all.  Where in The Bible does Jesus himself, claim to be a god?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Joseph on March 16, 2010, 06:48:16 AM
You FOOL!!!! ahem.... I have been wanting to do that since I saw the name hehehe

Please read this piece of work and you too  Joseph.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/


I have perused over that site. I just feel that it is tailored to to be negative to JC. The book of Isaiah prophesied the birth of JC centuries earlier.

Perhaps you are siding with the religious factions that were competing with and against JC. The people who persecuted xtians had the same ideology.


Making "every thought captive."

"For the weapons of our warfare are casting down imaginations ... and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."
– St Paul, 2 Corinthians 10.4,5.

This does not mean making thoughts captive. It means being a realist. If our thoughts are not free but bound by reality, the reality gets animated. Reality does not have an attitude. It's the mind that supplies the attitude.

A more elaborate verse is John 7:24. Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
 

 


  
  
    
 

 

 

 

 
 

 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: anthony_retford on March 16, 2010, 07:25:56 AM
How can you love something you have never seen? What sort of love is this? Aren't you just enamoured by pictures and words? You cannot love someone you have not had any contact with. Name me one person in this world you have never seen or heard from that you "love"? If you can't do this then why do you claim to "love" your Jesus? Why should anyone not believe you are delusional?
Good question. In the Bible, the prophets constantly talk about the consolation and comfort of the Holy Spirit, and about a life which begins when God seals the elect believer with the Holy Spirit. Essentially God promises to always be with the Christian. God has means of grace, such as a body of believers, and meditating on Scripture, and the living practice of all the Christians who have gone before. So in the only way that matters for this life, I have God with me. Before I had God with me, He had written me letters, detailed notes about His feelings and intentions concerning me and the rest of the world. You are, when you ask about seeing God, essentially telling me that all relationships are skin deep.

I don't think relationships are skin deep.

So you love your god as you would love a person who wrote e-mails to you but not by name. Please tell me of your god’s intentions regarding Chinese people. I would like to know what he has in mind. Also, how does your love of your god compare with your love of your wife or child? I would suggest that if you answer your love for your god is greater that you need to see a psychriatrist.

You actually skirted around my questions. For instance you could not supply the name of just one person, whom you have never seen or heard from, in this world you ‘love.’

I did not assert that all relationships are skin deep. I did ask you what sort of love you have for your god and you did not answer. You only related how some life begins when your god ‘seals’ the elect (how did they get to be elect anyway?) with something you call the holy spirit. That sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. If god promises always to be with a xtian how come xtians screw up just like everyone else?

I could go on and pick and pick at what you say but to what purpose? How can you, an intelligent person, believe in this nonsense, which is invisible to you?  I am afraid you will never think rationally and examine how you have been fooled, and keep on being fooled. It is a pity for sure.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: changeling on March 16, 2010, 07:32:07 AM


The coup de grace:

Mt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
Mt 4:2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
Mt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ 14 ’”
Mt 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ 15 ’”
Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ 16 ’”
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ 17 ’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.



Since Jesus never wrote anything, and the devil never wrote anything, and since no one else was in the desert with them,
who exactly heard him say all of this stuff?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kin hell on March 16, 2010, 08:14:46 AM
good question changeling  +1
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: voodoo child on March 16, 2010, 08:15:09 AM
Quote
I have perused over that site. I just feel that it is tailored to to be negative to JC. The book of Isaiah prophesied the birth of JC centuries earlier.

OK, how do you rationalise this. remember the bible was not finished till century's after jesus death.
when did they start writing the bible?

and the bible was not available to the public till 1468? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg

so there is a 1500 year gap for people to look for evidence of Jesus or hear the word.
god is so powerfull he couldn't print up a bunch of memoirs after his sons death?

oh well here's another link for you to read over.  


http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#9

  
edit; spell, finger fumble.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 16, 2010, 08:23:40 AM
That was a blatant denial. What about this one?

John 10:30 'I and the Father are one." 

John [17:21]  that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John [17:23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
In the instances you've cited, Jesus is quite obviously referring to the Father as a separate being from himself.  If you are saying that his saying they are "in" each other is an indication of Jesus' deity, then it logically follows that believers are also divine since they are also "in" Jesus.  Since human beings are NOT divine, then obviously this doesn't mean what you are purporting it to mean.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 16, 2010, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: Joseph
Quote from: bertatberts
I don't see it sorry, Jesus refers to a third person, Who we will call I AM but he does not say it is himself, all Jetson is asking is "Where in The Bible did Jesus specifically say that he was God, or divine, like God?" that can be anywhere OT or NT.
Can anybody answer it?
Will anybody answer it?
We've had several failed attempts.
Come on you xians.
That was a blatant denial.
How so!, it written there in black and white, where in that scripture does he actually say I am "I AM" he clearly talks about "I AM" in the third person.
Quote from: joseph
What about this one?

John 10:30 'I and the Father are one."
WOW! does it hurt when you stretch that much. Are you not one with your god, do you not feel he is your father, are you divine too.
Quote from: joseph
John [17:21]  that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Here he just agrees with me in my above reply, that we are all one with god, including us thinking people.
Quote from: Joseph
John [17:23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
And again here.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: RaymondKHessel on March 16, 2010, 09:58:06 AM
The mental gymnastics it takes to scam yourself like this are just STAGGERING.

Must be nice to rattle off scripture like machine gun fire while being able to spin virtually ANY of it in any way that's convenient to serve whatever point you're trying to make at the particular moment.

I guess that's one of the perks of having a god that writes ambiguous, open-ended, easily misconstrued gibberish in it's biography. It serves as a kind of philosophical rorshack test - just vague enough an ink blot to suggest 10 different things to the willing rube, yet just specific enough to be a semi-coherent text that can be read aloud for fun and profit.

Christ, can't people just ADMIT IT when they've got nuthin'? Do we really have to do this wack-a-mole "Hit 'em with a rolled up newspaper and rub their nose in it" song-and-dance every time? It's embarassing to everybody involved. It's embarassing to the theist because it's clear that they've s**t all over the carpet, and it's embarassing to the atheist because we have to stand there and watch them wander around the room all doe-eyed going "What? What s**t? I don't see any s**t. Oh that? That's not s**t. Clearly. It's obviously a cake that has yet to be eaten by somebody who's time travelling backwards."

Gah. WTF ever happened to intellectual honesty or integrity? :shrug

No. Instead we get this grasping-for-straws, twist the words around gimmick where words and sentences don't really mean what they say. Why not? Let's change meanings and definitions and "come to rational conclusions" based on irrational statements for EVERY book. That way, you'd never have to face the unpleasent notion that the facts didn't line up with your pre-conceived conclusions!

I bet I could paint Hannibal Lector as a quantum Buddhist if I followed Christian interpretational tactics.

"I can smell your _______ , Clarise!" -

Cleary here he was saying that a"smell", being the essence of Clarise's latent molecular structure, was directly indicative of an Enlightened state that resided within the metaphorical ____, being of course a higher plane of consiousness that resides between two worlds, much like a person's genitals are (usually) located between two legs.

Easy enough. Except the guy who wrote Silence of the Lambs wasn't an ALL KNOWING *GOD*. It was written by a person. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a *GOD* would have the clarity of thought and eloquent mastery of language to say what it fucking means, in no uncertain terms, without being vague or cryptic or leaving things open to interpretation.

Hell, even the Tao of Pooh and Chicken Soup for the Soul are fifty times as clear on these things.

 &)

This **** makes my head spin.

/rant
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 16, 2010, 10:35:04 AM
The mental gymnastics it takes to scam yourself like this are just STAGGERING

Thus is it with those who believe in a religion who's central figure is a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father that can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: velkyn on March 16, 2010, 10:39:24 AM
actually if we go up and down a little futher in John 10, we see that Jesus seems to be referring to Psalm 82 where God is calling everyone is called a "god".  and this would seem to indicate that he's not exactly calling himself "divine" unless you want everyone to have the same "divineness".  
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: RaymondKHessel on March 16, 2010, 10:40:15 AM
The mental gymnastics it takes to scam yourself like this are just STAGGERING

Thus is it with those who believe in a religion who's central figure is a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father that can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Your forgot about the part where the snake spoke ancient Aramaic and was really an evil goatman that lives in a lake of fire in the center of the earth.  &)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 16, 2010, 10:56:00 AM
The mental gymnastics it takes to scam yourself like this are just STAGGERING

Thus is it with those who believe in a religion who's central figure is a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father that can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Your forgot about the part where the snake spoke ancient Aramaic and was really an evil goatman that lives in a lake of fire in the center of the earth.  &)

If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: RaymondKHessel on March 16, 2010, 11:01:57 AM
If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me
Lmao  :D.

I...

You know...

Uh...

Wow. I have no response to that. :D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Jim on March 16, 2010, 11:03:43 AM
I have a retort.  Here, I edited it for you.

If English talking American was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 16, 2010, 11:30:05 AM
17 hours ago I left this thread to go to sleep, which by God's wisdom humbles me daily with its requirements. I have since eaten, gone to class, inspected a home that my wife and I might be purchasing, gone through the market district to make a grocery trip, and gone to the library to check out a book. Shortly I will be studying for my classes for the rest of the week.

I don't understand why some of you think that I am cowardly for not having the resources to attend to this thread twenty four hours a day, but I will do my best to answer the questions with time. You should probably also be aware that I have over twenty thousand posts on this site before the new forums took effect, and am approaching ten thousand posts on another atheist website. So, though I am a proud sinner who needs God's grace constantly to be a civil person, I'm not emotionally thin skinned or ignorant of your arguments.

So, give me the same grace you give yourselves, I'll reply as I am able.

People probably would give you more credit, or get off your back etc., if you didn't rant about such things, and actually answer their questions.  Those here who believe you should be here to answer them, are themselves idiots (or fools), and attribute nothing to the discussion.  However, if they've asked you the question or questions while you were logged in, and you didn't answer them, then, that makes you the idiot (or Fool) and not them.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 16, 2010, 11:31:28 AM
This is presented as a "prophesy" but it strongly suggests that Mark (or at least that section of Mark) was written after the Temple had already been destroyed.  A similar controversy exists regarding the dating of the book of Daniel, with some scholars claiming that the prophesies therein were composed after the events they supposedly predict.

I've read the same on Genesis, on how Moses couldn't have written Genesis based on certain criteria that would make it improbable that he did.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 16, 2010, 11:36:34 AM
Why do they have to be eye witness accounts?

No one stated they did.  What's being stated is that people claim that the books written by those names attributed to them, were actually there.  They make it "eyewitness accounts" even though it's most likely they are not.  Also, they don't have to be but at least some other sources should be able to back up the story to place more validity to it, don't you think? A group of people from the same religion and/or tribe is not using other sources it just becomes hearsay, and tales.

Quote
Historians and news reporters almost never actually witness what went on. Investigators write official reports all the time, having only done an investigation after the fact.

This is true. But most of those people doing the research try to get as many sources as they can to show the truth of it, and not just hold onto a few or just one.

Quote
If we assume that Luke wrote the book that bears his name, there is very little claim that he was an eyewitness to any of it. What was important was that he was surrounded by people that claimed they knew Jesus, and were convinced that Jesus was the Messiah, and Son of God.

Irrelevant.  I know people who've written books on fairies, and since people believe they've seen fairies, and are convinced they exist, doesn't mean they actually do. And, that goes with the claims that Jesus existed; especially based on the evidence because people were convinced he existed.  That doesn't make something exist, by the by.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 16, 2010, 11:38:15 AM
Essentially God promises to always be with the Christian.

Does it actually state "Christian", in such regard as to what you're referring to, in the Bible?

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 16, 2010, 11:40:49 AM
Oh, I thought I was dancing on the point. I guess you missed my logic.

Jesus says to Satan that only the LORD is appropriate to worship.
Jesus continuously receives worship.

How are your deductive powers today?

You really are an idiot, aren't you?  No where in the Bible does it state that Jesus says that he's a deity; yet, you imply it does by proxy of those who worship him as a deity.

You really live up to your name, don't you?

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 16, 2010, 11:43:23 AM
No, you didn't answer it at all.  Where in The Bible does Jesus himself, claim to be a god?

The answer is: no where. Why? 'Cause Jesus never speaks in the Bible. Other people repeat what they believe he spoke, and regurgitate in their individual scripts.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ksm on March 16, 2010, 05:29:58 PM
Fool, if you are going to talk about "Jesus" can you at least take the trouble to his name right?

You have such a hard on for this "Jesus" chap, yet you don't even use his actual name?

I wonder if that makes him sad?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: onlyonus on March 16, 2010, 06:34:37 PM
Common guys;
I want an answer too :'(
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 06:57:00 PM
See how that reasoning doesn't work?

Fool, I believe jetson wants it straight from the horses' mouth, so to speak. So have you come across any scripture that directly shows Jesus making a claim of divinity? It's a simple yes or no question. If yes, then please cite the verse.
No, I don't see. Because Jesus would have rebuked someone who worshiped him, but he doesn't. He repeatedly receives worship from people, from birth to death, and then in resurrection.

As for Jesus claiming divinity, he called himself the Son of Man most often, and that was a divine title of the prophecy about God's Messiah. If you are asking if he said "I am God", no I don't think so. Only "I AM" which is the name of God. He also said that he and God are one. To Jesus there was no difference.

Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, [1] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 06:57:54 PM
Joseph, that is OT not the NT so since Christians only go by the new testament then that one wouldn't count.
Really? Are you a Christian, speaking for all Christians? :D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 07:08:27 PM
So you love your god as you would love a person who wrote e-mails to you but not by name. Please tell me of your god’s intentions regarding Chinese people. I would like to know what he has in mind.

Also, how does your love of your god compare with your love of your wife or child?
God intends to save many Chinese people from themselves, and to treat all of them justly. He has grace in store for each and every one. My love for my wife doesn't compare to my love for God. Even though my wife is cool.

Quote
You actually skirted around my questions. For instance you could not supply the name of just one person, whom you have never seen or heard from, in this world you ‘love.’

Quote
I did not assert that all relationships are skin deep. I did ask you what sort of love you have for your god and you did not answer. You only related how some life begins when your god ‘seals’ the elect (how did they get to be elect anyway?) with something you call the holy spirit. That sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. If god promises always to be with a xtian how come xtians screw up just like everyone else?

I could go on and pick and pick at what you say but to what purpose? How can you, an intelligent person, believe in this nonsense, which is invisible to you? 
If you think that the most meaningful question to ask me is if I've seen God then clearly you do think that relationships are skin deep. Right now you and I are communicating and I've never seen you. I think that a large proportion of the people I've ever interacted with I've never actually seen. Some of them you might be able to convince me were liars or not real, but that would get less likely as time went on and my relationship deepened. I think that most of the people I come to know and love without seeing them prefer to eventually exchange pictures of them in their normal surroundings, as I do also. So I can't think of anyone right now that I know and love but don't know what they look like.

It brings up a really good point though, which answers your other question. You asked me how I love God, well the love that I have for God causes me to want to see Him honored for who He is, and to be able to share everything I am with Him, and to know Him as He knows me. So in short, I want to see God's face. It is my pleasure that God has made His intentions clear regarding this matter, that now I have been reconciled and washed by His grace, so I will see His face.

God saves the elect by His own pleasure, and seems to not get very specific but His principles are clear. Everyone deserves to be repayed justly for their sins, but God chooses those who have been most humbled and oppressed in this life. In essence, if you are receiving pleasure in this life from your sins then you are not the one who is on the path of salvation. If you hate the world because of its sin and misery, and recognize that at its core it is wrong, then you are of the same mindset of the elect. God lifts up the poor, the oppressed, the broken. The scum of the world are being saved.

The Bible says that even though they are being saved that it is an ongoing process, and God delights in ongoing processes. It took him thousands of years to reveal His plan of salvation directly, and He loves turning subtle actions of grace and mercy into overwhelming floods of love. So that one man forgiving those who treat Him unjustly becomes the turning point in human history. God loves to do these things, to show that you can fight evil with good and you can make the world a better place just by loving people. So the reason, in short for why Christians still sin, is that they are in the process of conquering the patterns and habits that they and the rest of the world have collected for all this time. Instead of waving a magic wand over them and ending it, God is inviting them to be participants in redemption and to see experientially that He does all things well, reconciling all things.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 07:09:49 PM
Since Jesus never wrote anything, and the devil never wrote anything, and since no one else was in the desert with them,
who exactly heard him say all of this stuff?
Well, since Jesus was not mute, he was able to talk to people about his experiences easily. You might have had him confused with Moses, or one of the demonaics.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Barracuda on March 16, 2010, 07:15:16 PM
I don't understand why some of you think that I am cowardly for not having the resources to attend to this thread twenty four hours a day, but I will do my best to answer the questions with time. You should probably also be aware that I have over twenty thousand posts on this site before the new forums took effect, and am approaching ten thousand posts on another atheist website. So, though I am a proud sinner who needs God's grace constantly to be a civil person, I'm not emotionally thin skinned or ignorant of your arguments.

So, give me the same grace you give yourselves, I'll reply as I am able.
Fool, I understand that you can't be on this thread 24/7. But you have responded to many other posts that were posted after mine, which was on the first page. It is now page 5, I have yet to see any indication that you even intend on replying to my post.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 07:29:23 PM
I have a question. Christians maintain the belief that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was the key to God's forgiveness of human sin and salvation. Why, exactly, did these events have to occur in order for God to forgive humans of anything? What is the relevance of:
a) the life, death, and resurrection of a divine entity manifested in the flesh (Jesus), to

b) A God's his attitude towards human sin.

'Cause honestly, I see absolutely no causal relevance of a) to b). If God wanted to forgive humans, why didn't he just do it, why were the events described in a) a prerequisite to forgiveness?
Sorry I missed your post before.

It's a good question. You might be surprised at the answer.

The Bible says that the cross was a demonstration(of God's righteousness). He was revealing the situation as it truly was since long before the crucifixion. God had been forgiving peoples sins and treating them graciously for all time, and had created the world well aware of the suffering that would be caused by his creatures acting disobediently. Since God knows all things, He is intimately aware of the suffering of every man woman and child who ever came into existence. So when Jesus went to the cross, it was to SHOW people the character of God. It was to REVEAL that God was humble and lowly in heart, and that He cared for us and has always cared for us. It was to PROVE that God had not abandoned His people, or failed in His promise.

The revelation of Jesus is the model for God's plan, except that we are all heirs by grace, and Jesus displayed God's perfect righteousness in the flesh by works. So Jesus died in the flesh and was raised again, I die to the flesh and am raised again. As Jesus was glorified and lives eternally I will be glorified and live eternally.

I wish I had seen this before, it was a pleasure to reply.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Grogan on March 16, 2010, 09:25:02 PM
Well, since Jesus was not mute, he was able to talk to people about his experiences easily. You might have had him confused with Moses, or one of the demonaics.

Who recorded those conversations since not a single word of the New Testament was written in the presence of Jesus?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 16, 2010, 09:53:16 PM
As Jesus was glorified and lives eternally I will be glorified and live eternally.


Doing what, exactly? Eternally?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bgb on March 16, 2010, 10:16:41 PM
If there was a christian god why would he need to have us have to do so much. I mean if he knew what would have happened to Adam and Eve and  didn't stop or change it.  Then it isn't worth worshipping it. 

God sacrificed himself to himself because of his own rules.  Bullshit.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: jazzman on March 16, 2010, 10:31:38 PM
God had been forgiving peoples sins and treating them graciously for all time, ...
No he hasn't, actually.  The deity to which you refer did not exist in the human lexicon or consciousness until the ancient Jews invented that deity.  Many cultures and tens of thousands of years of human existence passed into history before the Israelites' notion of their deity was written down and formalized.

The God of Abraham is nothing more than one of thousands of deities humans have believed in.  If the God of Abraham has always existed, he certainly masked his existence to a great many humans and robbed them of his supposed grace.

Jazzman
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: DVZ3 on March 16, 2010, 10:39:52 PM
My love for my wife doesn't compare to my love for God. Even though my wife is cool.

This has to be without a doubt, the most scary, creepy, goosetingling things that an xitan can say.  To put an imaginary being before family that is real and tangible is absolutely a mind boggling reality for these people.  And the more frightening thing is that they are taught to believe this philosophy and foolish hierarchy for obvious cult-like reasons.

It's sad.  These people all come in this forum and sound exactly the same when they speak.  Like robots for an imaginary god.  Like god software has been installed in their brain like a virus keeping vital system programs running.  Reality and reason is quickly discarded in favor of superstition and intangible faith.

And their all programmed to put this before their wife, husband, kids, friends, etc..  How do they not see a giant red flag here?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 10:47:27 PM
Who recorded those conversations since not a single word of the New Testament was written in the presence of Jesus?
Well I've got no reason to believe that not a single word was written in His presence, but I think that Luke penned Luke, John penned John, Matthew probably penned Matthew, and a guy named John Mark probably penned Mark.

I think they all had significant help.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 10:48:35 PM
  If the God of Abraham has always existed, he certainly masked his existence to a great many humans and robbed them of his supposed grace.
How can you rob someone of grace?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 10:49:16 PM
This has to be without a doubt, the most scary, creepy, goosetingling things that an xitan can say.  To put an imaginary being before family that is real and tangible is absolutely a mind boggling reality for these people.  And the more frightening thing is that they are taught to believe this philosophy and foolish hierarchy for obvious cult-like reasons.

It's sad.  These people all come in this forum and sound exactly the same when they speak.  Like robots for an imaginary god.  Like god software has been installed in their brain like a virus keeping vital system programs running.  Reality and reason is quickly discarded in favor of superstition and intangible faith.

And their all programmed to put this before their wife, husband, kids, friends, etc..  How do they not see a giant red flag here?
Pontificating on the reasons for my behavior in a purposeless universe is just as creepy as anything I've said on my wildest day.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: DVZ3 on March 16, 2010, 10:52:14 PM
^^^ oh wait, I did forget that.  To think that you have no pupose in life if god is imaginary definately trumps all.

Well done! You are a true robot of an imaginary god!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 10:58:00 PM
No D.

If there is no God, there is no free will, and I have no choice but to be as I am, and you have no choice but to be as you are. So it is CREEPY when you pretend as if I do have a choice.

Or do you believe in the soul?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Azdgari on March 16, 2010, 11:00:53 PM
Fool, if there is an omnimax god, then free will is impossible anyway.  Your god must not be all-powerful or all-knowing, for you to think you have free will.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: DVZ3 on March 16, 2010, 11:08:27 PM
No D.

If there is no God, there is no free will, and I have no choice but to be as I am, and you have no choice but to be as you are. So it is CREEPY when you pretend as if I do have a choice.

Or do you believe in the soul?

The soul to me, is just a biblical, poetic way of discribing the personality of my brain after years of different stimulus from envoroment, parents, and people.

You however, seem to come in contact with people, probably by geography, to beleive like you do in some higher power controlling and watching over you. You also fail to see that this is just people controlling your behavior for selfish reasons emotionally, financially, for power, or political persuasion. (sometimes even all the above!)

Even as poetic and beatiful as the idea of a soul seems, it's obviously not reality which we (not you though) see everday.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, not to get off point about your comment to put god first in front of family.  I ask you this.  Would you kill your wife and kids if your god commanded it of you?  Much like the story of abraham.  Or will you come up with and make excuses for your god of why he wouldn't ask this of you today?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ksm on March 16, 2010, 11:10:20 PM
If there is no God, there is no free will, and I have no choice but to be as I am, and you have no choice but to be as you are. So it is CREEPY when you pretend as if I do have a choice.

Why? Show your working.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 11:13:37 PM
Fool, if there is an omnimax god, then free will is impossible anyway.  Your god must not be all-powerful or all-knowing, for you to think you have free will.
Feel free to open a debate, and we can go at it.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 16, 2010, 11:17:10 PM
Even as poetic and beatiful as it seems, it's obviously not reality which we (not you though) see everday.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, not to get off point about your comment to put god first in front of family.  I ask you this.  Would you kill your wife and kids if your god commanded it of you?  Much like the story of abraham.  Or will you come up with and make excuses for your god of why he wouldn't ask this of you today?
Hmm, believers in God outnumber nonbelievers in the world. So perhaps you're missing part of reality. Perhaps you have a magic decoder ring that I don't? (Oh, you don't like appeals to popularity? :D)

I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to. There you go, you have a quote. Now if you're interested in actual discussion you'll read the rest of the paragraph. I would have to be sure that God would consider it a capital offense for me NOT to take my wife and child's life AND that God had all of our best interest in mind. Considering that He caused the death of His own Son to be the salvation of the world, I'm convinced that He is trustworthy. It would be highly unexpected however, and I would feel comfortable asking God exactly why. He wrestled with Jacob, and told Abraham to offer his son, and Isaac agreed that God was trustworthy... so though He slay us, I will trust Him.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: DVZ3 on March 16, 2010, 11:25:34 PM
If there is no god... Then the world would be a better place.  It would keep humans from doing so-called god's work.

As far as free will goes, when we master human psycology, politics, physics, quantum mechanics, and a culture free from god, only then will we begin to understand why we are the way we are and the decisions we make.

But even after we have mastered and perfected all these, there will still be a fool standing in the way of all of it.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: DVZ3 on March 16, 2010, 11:32:05 PM
Hmm, believers in God outnumber nonbelievers in the world. So perhaps you're missing part of reality. Perhaps you have a magic decoder ring that I don't? (Oh, you don't like appeals to popularity? :D)


^^^ It's quite obvious you haven't studied history at all, especially human history.  The 'masses' are the ones that are 'outnumbered' as you say have usually always been the ignorant ones that were just plain wrong.

Many cultures like the Aztecs sacrificed people (even beautiful young virgins) in the hope that their god would bring a bountiful harvest for the people.  The masses beleived this, and they were wrong.

The 'masses' believed that the earth was the center of the universe.  Again, just plain wrong.

The 'masses' believed that the earth was flat.  Again, just plain wrong.

The 'masses' believed that man would never fly.  Again, just plain wrong.

There countless examples old and new of this pattern that has emerged.

And today, the 'masses' believe in a god who watches over us.... What do you think comes next?????  ;D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Azdgari on March 16, 2010, 11:32:29 PM
(1): If a detail about the future can be known accurately, then that detail about the future exists in a state that in principle is knowable.

(2): For a detail about the future to be knowable, it must have a definite future state, for otherwise knowledge about it would be impossible.  For example, if the future of whether X will occur is set in stone and a deity says "X will occur", and it occurs, then it is possible for it to have done so from knowledge.  If the future of whether X will occur is not set in stone and a deity says "X will occur", and it occurs, then that was an educated guess, rather than knowledge, since the deity could not have truly known whether X would occur.

(3), from (1): If a deity has knowledge of all details about the future (as required by omniscience), then all details about the future must in principle be knowable.

(4), from (2) and (3):  If a deity is omniscient, then all details about the future must have definite states.

(5), from (4):  If all details about the future have definite states, then only one choice is ever available for anyone to choose:  The one that they actually pick.

(6), from (5):  If one can only ever make one inevitable choice, then one has no free will.

QED
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Astreja on March 16, 2010, 11:35:21 PM
You mean because it's impossible to know the future?

I think that it is extremely unlikely that anyone can foresee the future with 100% accuracy.  I have a hunch (but can not prove) that the very possession of such a vision would alter the future -- Kind of like a time-traveler's version of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, if you will.

It is, however, not at all difficult to make reasonably good guesses as to future events, simply by allowing one's imagination to play around a bit with the possibilities and probabilities.  For instance, if there's an insurgency in a country and the rebels are using a specific building as their rallying point, guess which building the counter-insurgency is going to attack and guess which building will receive a "prophecy" of destruction?

Example:  On another discussion forum, back in late December 2005 or early January 2006 I myself predicted the death of Slobodan Miloševic who subsequently died about three months later.  It was a no-brainer, actually:  64-year-old man with hypertension, heart condition and a lot of enemies, confined to a prison cell in a foreign land.  Most probable outcome=______________.

It is also not difficult to cause "prophesies" to come true, simply by planting an idea in someone's head and letting them do the work to make it happen for real.  This is the proverbial self-fulfilling prophesy.

Finally, it's positively trivial to write a highly accurate "prophesy" after the fact.  In fact, I suggest that the accuracy of a prophesy is directly proportional to the probability that it was written after the events it supposedly foresaw.  This is the corollary of my prediction-alters-future hypothesis:  When an event has happened, it has a probability of 1.0; therefore, any retroactive prediction does not have to take into consideration the chance that the events might not happen.  Any lack of accuracy is just poetic license.

For all of these reasons, I think prophesy is grossly overrated and almost certainly not credible evidence of divine influence.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Sky on March 16, 2010, 11:37:35 PM
Did Jesus wear a Tunic?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Astreja on March 16, 2010, 11:40:49 PM
I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to.

:o This isn't foolishness.  This is insanity.

I hope that your wife reads this post and takes appropriate legal action.  Seriously.

ETA:  For the record, if I were faced with the same situation I would disobey without hesitation.  I would seek to defend myself and my family with all means necessary, including lethal force against the deity that gave the order, to the limits of my strength.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: DVZ3 on March 16, 2010, 11:45:33 PM
I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to.

:o This isn't foolishness.  This is insanity.


^^^ I was expecting this answer and will give no comment.  It doesn't even dignify a response.  It speaks for itself.  :'(

I think deep down he knows he wouldn't but then he would have to disobey his imaginary love for which he has never seen!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Azdgari on March 16, 2010, 11:49:11 PM
I hope that your wife reads this post and takes appropriate legal action.  Seriously.

Indeed.  Otherwise, something like this might happen:

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/9009375/detail.html
Quote
A man sentenced to 90 years in prison for attempting to set his Orlando home on fire with his family sleeping inside said God commanded him to sacrifice his wife and children, according to a Local 6 News report.

Hans Missal, 51, admitted to dousing his Orlando home with gasoline last March. Missal also duct-taped the doors shut and ran a hose from the house to a car tailpipe while his wife, son and daughter slept before he attempted to set the structure on fire.

Tuesday, Missal said he was following God's orders.

Missal compared himself to the Bible's Abraham, who was commanded by God to sacrifice his own son, and said he received a message from God to kill his entire family, Local 6 News reported.

"God had a plan for my family, I had no idea what that plan was," Missal said. "I trusted God and God was faithful to the end."

...
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: natlegend on March 16, 2010, 11:49:19 PM
 
If there is no God, there is no free will, and I have no choice but to be as I am, and you have no choice but to be as you are. So it is CREEPY when you pretend as if I do have a choice.

Why? Show your working.

WRONG Fool, wrong wrong wrong. Soooooooooooo wrong. Epic fail. Yes, PLEASE DO show us how your came to this conclusion.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: natlegend on March 16, 2010, 11:51:52 PM
I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to.

Sick, just plain sick. You have revealed your true nature Fool, and it is just as bloodthirsty as that of the imaginary god you worship. I feel quite ill now...
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 16, 2010, 11:56:03 PM
Fool

You believe in jesus, etc. etc. You for some reason think that at least some atheists have questions about him, as per your OP. You also seem to think that if we do have questions, we're really stumped, because there is no place to find answers to any of our questions about the dude. It's not like the internet has search engines or anything. So you offer your services.

Here you are, in gospel mode, ready to demonstrate your self-professed expertise in a subject very few here are interested in. You have the experience of thousands of posts on atheists sites, and yet you claim indignation when a bunch of atheists hanging around an atheist site (I know, the coincidences here are staggering) don't respect you en masse. And as we ask you questions from our point of view, you insist on answering them from your own. And then you are stunned to find that your magical words haven't causes any of us to go dive in the closest baptism tank ASAP. Wow.

Having been an atheist for almost 50 years now, I'm real short of questions about christianity. Real short. As in, I have none. The inconsistencies, biblical and otherwise, in the christian world long ago convinced me that your god is no more real than the gods of the hindus or the pharaohs or the zoroastrians. The only questions I have is how you can believe the drivel, and no christian has yet shown up and explained their beliefs in those terms. Hence any confusion I, or most of the other atheists here have about jesus and moses and floods and snakes and sacred calves and tablets and the digestive system of whales is how in the world you guys can swallow that stuff.

I have finally concluded that many christians (esp. those prone to show up here and brag about their voluntary ignorance) is that they require authority at the god level to be able to coexist with other people on this planet. They need to believe that there are external reasons for not raping and robbing and getting the hots for their neighbor's wife, and luckily for them, there is a "morality for dummies" book out there, available in every motel room. Given that they can also customize the lessons and the meanings and the insinuations to match their own needs and wants and dreams and justifications is just icing on the cake.

Find a passage in the bible that explains how the post-flood marsupials all walked to Australia. Find a passage in the bible that exonerates Galileo. Show me some geological proofs of genesis, some explanations of where the weaker Egyptians gods went to. Explain to some acceptable degree why your god is afraid of iron chariots. And tell us why you wear clothes of mixed materials when your big boss made it taboo.

But don't go thinking I'm about to take an aptitude test on jesus and need to brush up on the details. Most of us prefer to limit our ignorance to things worthy of ignorance. Jesus is one of those things. Live with it.

Addendum: Lots of posts as I wrote this. But your "I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to" post is way to far over the top. Don't worry about a thing that I wrote above. Just know this. I'm an atheist to save your wife and kids and every other wife and kid of every other believer who believes the same thing, christian or otherwise. If it's immoral to give a fuck about other humans, then I'll proudly call myself immoral. And I would far rather go to hell if I'm wrong than kiss the big butt of any god who can command that sort of loyalty on faith alone. One of you is a huge creep. Probably the real one.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Sky on March 17, 2010, 12:01:57 AM
Did Jesus own a hammer?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: none on March 17, 2010, 12:08:50 AM
Did Jesus own a hammer?
now we are getting somewhere....
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 17, 2010, 12:23:56 AM
Fool

If your god ever does tell you to kill your family, do the right thing and shoot yourself. If he exists, he'll ask why. All you have to do is say "Oops, I missed".

On the bright side, even Texas executes people who claim god told them to do it. So it's really got to be wrong.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ksm on March 17, 2010, 12:28:14 AM
Even as poetic and beatiful as it seems, it's obviously not reality which we (not you though) see everday.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, not to get off point about your comment to put god first in front of family.  I ask you this.  Would you kill your wife and kids if your god commanded it of you?  Much like the story of abraham.  Or will you come up with and make excuses for your god of why he wouldn't ask this of you today?
Hmm, believers in God outnumber nonbelievers in the world. So perhaps you're missing part of reality. Perhaps you have a magic decoder ring that I don't? (Oh, you don't like appeals to popularity? :D)

I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to.

I'm tempted to claim that this is a Poe. However unfortunately it is likely not.

There you go, you have a quote. Now if you're interested in actual discussion you'll read the rest of the paragraph. I would have to be sure that God would consider it a capital offense for me NOT to take my wife and child's life AND that God had all of our best interest in mind.

And how would you achieve this certainty? How would you be sure?

And frankly how dare you judge god? If he tells you to kill your family shouldn't you just obey - what's with this impudent conditions of surety you place upon this?

Considering that He caused the death of His own Son to be the salvation of the world, I'm convinced that He is trustworthy.

According to the story Yaweh's son Jesus came back to life. Your wife and kids would stay dead.

It would be highly unexpected however, and I would feel comfortable asking God exactly why. He wrestled with Jacob, and told Abraham to offer his son, and Isaac agreed that God was trustworthy... so though He slay us, I will trust Him.

Abraham didn't question, he just obeyed.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: SherB on March 17, 2010, 12:44:47 AM
Quote
I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to.

Sick, just plain sick. You have revealed your true nature Fool, and it is just as bloodthirsty as that of the imaginary god you worship. I feel quite ill now...
 
 


And this is the biggest and best argument against christianity that exists. At least most of the other religions, buddhism, etc., don't even think about things like this. So if there were to be a god, I'd certainly pick one from some religion other than your sick and bloodthirsty one. This is why a 'messiah' can convince 1000 people to drink poison kool-aid. This is why another dude who claims jesus spoke to him kept all his followers with him while their house was set on fire (Waco) And the list goes on and on.

In my state, Washington, there have been at least three women who have murdered their children in the last few years. All claimed that god told them to throw the kids off the bridge. The only thing I can ask of someone like you is that, if and when, god whispers in your ear that he'd like to see your family a little earlier than would happen without your assistance, please go ahead and finish the job.

What drives me crazier than anything else about these deals is that for reasons I don't quite understand, jesus tells the sheeple to shotgun their families and then they try and fail to cut their own wrists with a butter knife. So please, when the urge comes upon you, don't waste your wife and kids and then fail miserably on the last part. Save at least one shell for yourself and rid the world of one more sick, deluded, piece of shit. People like you are poster children for what is wrong with christianity and why the world would be a better place if it were banned.

Just my opinion, no I think my words are not just opinion but statements of fact. SherB-
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: anthony_retford on March 17, 2010, 01:03:38 AM



         
Thank you taking the time to answer my questions. Usually I don’t get questions answered so I appreciate your efforts.

That being said I feel strongly that you should not love your god to the extreme you admit and love your wife a distant second. I did say that if you answered in this way you should see a psychologist. I say this because you are seriously deluded. I was sent to a Catholic boarding school for years, attended church for more years, and was married to a strong-practicing Catholic. It was only once I began seeing what went on in the world and left the comfortable fold that I realized more and more that there is no god and no holy spirit. In looking at the bible I could see that no divinity had anything to do with such a petty and nasty book.  I am now embarrassed to see adults such as you who believe in talking snakes, a woman made from a rib, a world-wide flood, the earth being only 6,000+ years old, a god who sacrificed himself to himself for some imagined ‘sin’ caused by eating an apple, and so on and so on. I was particularly embarrassed myself for not even questioning events such as mass slaughters that happened in Egypt and when Jesus was born, when no one thought them important or significant to write about them.

You say “God intends to save many Chinese people from themselves, and to treat all of them justly. He has grace in store for each and every one.” What does this mean in day-to-day language? Save them from themselves? Grace in store? You and your fellow believers may understand something in these terms but I don’t.

Thank you admitting you can’t think of anyone you know and love but don’t know what they look like. I can’t help feeling that whatever love you would feel would be miniscule considering you love your wife less than something you imagine in your mind.

Why do you want to honor a god who has killed untold numbers of people, for example in the great flood that you surely believe in, although the Chinese people did not notice anything unusual when this supposed world-wide flood was in action.

You say you want to see your god’s face but isn’t it true that xtians believe that any man who sees your god would be destroyed? Perhaps you mean in your afterlife? How can you know your god as you think he knows you? Your god has been around for all time and surely before he got involved with you he was doing many other things. If you believe he knows if you have an ingrown toenail, how can you expect to know what your god did billions of years ago, or will do, because you believe that of him, billions of years in the future. I find this a fatuous statement.  And you continue to use this peculiar language – washed by his grace.

So now you are saying that your god will save anyone with hate in their heart? All you need to do is hate this world (no wonder you want to find another one) with its ‘sin’ and misery, and you will be saved. Apparently you translate receiving pleasure as a result of sins since you did not address the other pleasures of life. But what about the simple pleasures Fool? Do you have children and do you get pleasure from them? How about a nice sunset or the woods in the early morning? Or a multitude of beautiful things this world has to offer?

You wrote that your god saves the oppressed. Does this mean he is going to save broken children in Africa who are starving to death? What purpose does that serve, to have children starving and then wait for them to die so they can see the face of your god. What good has that done them?

If your god is all-powerful why did it take thousands of years to reveal his plan? Why did one man forgiving those who treated him unjustly result in the turning point in human history? You have a very inflated viewpoint and an incorrect one.

You say god likes to show that you can fight evil with good and can make the world better place just by loving people. How would this have worked out when Hitler was on the rampage? Should we have just loved him and not fought him? I am sure you don’t doubt that fighting was the answer not love. If someone attacks your wife will you love him or kill him? Maybe you wouldn’t do anything as you don’t love her very much. Oh yes, you think she is cool. I would lose my cool if my wife told me she loved some god over me.

A last word about your language. It is known as jargon. You are initiated into a club whose members all talk the same. You don’t even recognize it by now. Your form of jargon uses expressive and flowery statements that sound as though they mean something, but leave outsiders with an empty taste. For example, your last three words were “reconciling all things.” What does that mean to you? Do you expect all others to know what you mean? I don’t know, neither would almost every other person in the world.
   
   


Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Grogan on March 17, 2010, 01:16:20 AM
Who recorded those conversations since not a single word of the New Testament was written in the presence of Jesus?
Well I've got no reason to believe that not a single word was written in His presence, but I think that Luke penned Luke, John penned John, Matthew probably penned Matthew, and a guy named John Mark probably penned Mark.

I think they all had significant help.

I think you should read up on these books, if they are that important to you, seriously. 

Also, you've not addressed my point, which is none of the words written in the gospels were done so by people who would have heard any word uttered by Jesus. Not one.

I'd like you to acknowledge that and not skirt around the point I made. I don't care what the name of the authors' of the gospels were (Also, ever heard of Q? I mean even the naming convection is most likely a fabrication with no bearing on the actual authors names).

Straight from Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Dating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Dating)

Dating
Estimates for the dates when the canonical gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs. Scholars variously assess the consensus or majority view as follows:

Mark: c. 68–73,[14] c 65-70[2]
Matthew: c. 70–100.[14] c 80-85.[2] Some conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[14], c 80-85[2]
John: c 90-100,[2] c. 90–110,[15] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.


Traditional Christian scholarship has generally preferred to assign earlier dates. Some historians interpret the end of the book of Acts as indicative, or at least suggestive, of its date; as Acts does not mention the death of Paul, generally accepted as the author of many of the Epistles, who was later put to death by the Romans c. 65.[citation needed] Acts is attributed to the author of the Gospel of Luke, and therefore would shift the chronology of authorship back, putting Mark as early as the mid 50s. Here are the dates given in the modern NIV Study Bible (for a fuller discussion see Augustinian hypothesis):

Mark: c. 50s to early 60s, or late 60s
Matthew: c. 50 to 70s
Luke: c. 59 to 63, or 70s to 80s
John: c. 85 to near 100, or 50s to 70


Dude, you've got some sort of cognitive dissonance or you're a POE. If it's the former, and you are being sincere, I'd have to guess that this is really the first time that anyone ever suggested that the gospels weren't written by Jesus' actual disciples!!!!!!!!!  I know that's how I was taught my entire life. It's a convenient lie, but trust me, those who told you that or let you think that, they knew the truth.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Joseph on March 17, 2010, 03:09:53 AM
(1): If a detail about the future can be known accurately, then that detail about the future exists in a state that in principle is knowable.

(2): For a detail about the future to be knowable, it must have a definite future state, for otherwise knowledge about it would be impossible.  For example, if the future of whether X will occur is set in stone and a deity says "X will occur", and it occurs, then it is possible for it to have done so from knowledge.  If the future of whether X will occur is not set in stone and a deity says "X will occur", and it occurs, then that was an educated guess, rather than knowledge, since the deity could not have truly known whether X would occur.

(3), from (1): If a deity has knowledge of all details about the future (as required by omniscience), then all details about the future must in principle be knowable.

(4), from (2) and (3):  If a deity is omniscient, then all details about the future must have definite states.

(5), from (4):  If all details about the future have definite states, then only one choice is ever available for anyone to choose:  The one that they actually pick.

(6), from (5):  If one can only ever make one inevitable choice, then one has no free will.

QED

Hebrews [13:8] Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever.

He is the domain where every existence takes place.

All the weird doctrines in the world are attributed to ignorance. When we will all be fully evolved, we will unanimously agree with Azdigari. It depends on our noviceship to believe weird things.

Quote
For a detail about the future to be knowable, it must have a definite future state, for otherwise knowledge about it would be impossible.  For example, if the future of whether X will occur is set in stone and a deity says "X will occur", and it occurs, then it is possible for it to have done so from knowledge.  If the future of whether X will occur is not set in stone and a deity says "X will occur", and it occurs, then that was an educated guess, rather than knowledge, since the deity could not have truly known whether X would occur.

'For a detail about the future to be knowable, it must have a definite future state' therefore its objective knowlegde.

Now since the deity has the option of saying it without setting it in stone (but saying it in a bible) it is not necessarily an educated guess, so there exists an avenue for exercising faith.

Proverbs [25:2]

It is the glory of God to conceal things,
but the glory of kings is to search things out.

Luke[12:2]

Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.


Quote
If a detail about the future can be known accurately, then that detail about the future exists in a state that in principle is knowable.
2Kings [19:25]
 "Have you not heard
that I determined it long ago?
I planned from days of old
what now I bring to pass,
that you should turn fortified cities
into heaps of ruins,

Quote
](4), from (2) and (3):  If a deity is omniscient, then all details about the future must have definite states.[/

Ecclesiastes [1:9] What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done;
and there is nothing new under the sun.

Quote
(5), from (4):  If all details about the future have definite states, then only one choice is ever available for anyone to choose:  The one that they actually pick.

(6), from (5):  If one can only ever make one inevitable choice, then one has no free will.

Ecclesiastes[6:10]

Whatever has come to be has already been named, and it is known what man is, and that he is not able to dispute with one stronger than he.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ksm on March 17, 2010, 03:38:03 AM
Hmm, believers in God outnumber nonbelievers in the world. So perhaps you're missing part of reality. Perhaps you have a magic decoder ring that I don't? (Oh, you don't like appeals to popularity? :D)

Also the people who don't believe in Christianity outnumber those who do. Perhaps you are missing part of reality?

See how that argument doesn't work....?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 17, 2010, 03:50:41 AM
BUMP:


So, give me the same grace you give yourselves, I'll reply as I am able.

Ok.

When you get around to answering them I have another question;


Did Jesus say that homosexuals should be put to death?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 17, 2010, 06:33:02 AM
God saves the elect by His own pleasure, and seems to not get very specific but His principles are clear. Everyone deserves to be repayed justly for their sins... if you are receiving pleasure in this life from your sins then you are not the one who is on the path of salvation... God lifts up the poor, the oppressed, the broken. The scum of the world are being saved... It took him thousands of years to reveal His plan of salvation directly... the reason, in short for why Christians still sin, is that they are in the process of conquering the patterns and habits that they and the rest of the world have collected...

More insanity....

Everyone deserves to be punished for sin, everyone, bar none...
But, God only saves who he wants to, so
This meaning, he damns who he wants to... 

So, free will really doesn't exist in the frame of who your god chooses to save...

He is vague about some enigmatic principle that is clearly unspecific, but should be known by everyone
He lifts up the poor, oppressed and broken by doing nothing for them except being there for comfort... As if...
He is saving the scum of the world, meaning out of everyone, he damns anyone who is rich, independent and has got it together...

It took a dude who allegedly created the entire cosmos in six days, thousands of years to reveal a plan to save a species he created to fail, and it takes years for them to realize their salvation because they are acting the way that they have no choice to because of patterns and habits they have developed over years of time?

And you can't see why we think you are all crazier than a shithouse rat?  Jumpin' Jesus in pink satin pumps, dude...  Seek help...
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 17, 2010, 06:45:27 AM
No D.

If there is no God, there is no free will, and I have no choice but to be as I am, and you have no choice but to be as you are. So it is CREEPY when you pretend as if I do have a choice.

Or do you believe in the soul?

Where do you get THAT pile of horse crap?! "Free will" exists without an imaginary god. It's WITH the imaginary god that free will DOESN'T exist.

You really do live in an upside-down world, don't you?

Not only do you have a "choice" to believe in this sad creature, but you go through all kinds of rationalizations and contortions to make your "idea" of this god fit with some pointless reality.

Again, the pointless life is one led trying to maintain the belief in a non-existent being. When you do that, you miss out on a great deal this life DOES have to offer.

And it's a pity, too, because there are no do-overs!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 17, 2010, 06:48:46 AM
Well I've got no reason to believe that not a single word was written in His presence, but I think that Luke penned Luke, John penned John, Matthew probably penned Matthew, and a guy named John Mark probably penned Mark.

I think they all had significant help.
So we are supposed to believe that those four people wrote the gospels because you think they did?  Or because some religion told you they did?  Or because you have some mystical "faith" that they did?   That's nonsense.  Any legitimate historian would laugh you out of the room if you came to them with that theory.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 17, 2010, 06:52:02 AM
Since Jesus never wrote anything, and the devil never wrote anything, and since no one else was in the desert with them,
who exactly heard him say all of this stuff?
Well, since Jesus was not mute, he was able to talk to people about his experiences easily. You might have had him confused with Moses, or one of the demonaics.

No, you are the one confused. The people who "wrote" about what Jesus said, never actually HEARD him say anything. Or do you purposely turn a blind eye to that fact in order to be secure in your delusion?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 17, 2010, 06:52:56 AM
Hmm, believers in God outnumber nonbelievers in the world.

Assuming you mean the christian god here, your statement is false.  Non-believers in your god far outnumber believers.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 17, 2010, 06:55:48 AM
Sky, are you trolling again?

I think you are.

Please stop it.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 17, 2010, 09:52:01 AM
I would kill my wife and kids if God wanted me to. There you go, you have a quote. Now if you're interested in actual discussion you'll read the rest of the paragraph. I would have to be sure that God would consider it a capital offense for me NOT to take my wife and child's life AND that God had all of our best interest in mind. Considering that He caused the death of His own Son to be the salvation of the world, I'm convinced that He is trustworthy. It would be highly unexpected however, and I would feel comfortable asking God exactly why. He wrestled with Jacob, and told Abraham to offer his son, and Isaac agreed that God was trustworthy... so though He slay us, I will trust Him.

Jesus Christ on a pizza bucket, you are a FOOL. Why do you think the rest of your paragraph makes the first sentence any better? Honestly your last four words are chilling.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 17, 2010, 09:58:24 AM

Jesus Christ on a pizza bucket, you are a FOOL. Why do you think the rest of your paragraph makes the first sentence any better? Honestly your last four words are chilling.

Yes, and this FOOL sees what he is saying/believing as much different than this: (and it's NOT!)

(http://www.911-remember.com/images/911-3.jpg)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 17, 2010, 11:17:32 AM
This has to be without a doubt, the most scary, creepy, goosetingling things that an xitan can say.  To put an imaginary being before family that is real and tangible is absolutely a mind boggling reality for these people.  And the more frightening thing is that they are taught to believe this philosophy and foolish hierarchy for obvious cult-like reasons.

The Bible does state that one has to hate everyone (including themselves) and love only God. So, if one interpreted that as: You have to love God more than anyone else. So, for a Christian it shouldn't be "creepy".  However, I doubt most Christians love God more than they love their loved ones.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Brakeman on March 17, 2010, 11:21:47 AM
..  However, I doubt most Christians love God more than they love their loved ones.

-Nam


"most" probably not, but likely a totally horrifying minority!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 17, 2010, 11:22:20 AM
No D.

If there is no God, there is no free will, and I have no choice but to be as I am, and you have no choice but to be as you are. So it is CREEPY when you pretend as if I do have a choice.

Or do you believe in the soul?

Being told to choose "believe in me or die", isn't really free-will. Sure, it appears there's a choice but actually there isn't.

If a man pointed a gun to your wife, and said "love her more than God", or he'd kill her -- which one would you choose? Apparently going by a previous statement: your God. Is that really a choice you're making?

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 17, 2010, 11:23:54 AM
Hmm, believers in God outnumber nonbelievers in the world. So perhaps you're missing part of reality. Perhaps you have a magic decoder ring that I don't? (Oh, you don't like appeals to popularity? :D)

Your god, or any god? 'Cause if we're speaking about your god, then, there are more non-believers than there are believers since anyone who worships a deity that isn't the "True one" such as you believe is yours, are all non-believers.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 17, 2010, 11:31:54 AM
"most" probably not, but likely a totally horrifying minority!

I don't believe that. Why? 'Cause most Christians go to church and have someone read the Bible to them, they don't read it themselves. And, most people really don't pay too much attention in church, do they? I mean, when I went years and years ago, most that I saw were either sleeping, doing a crossword puzzle, or some other activity, and not really paying too much attention. I doubt the members of the church I went to are the only members who did such a thing.

The scholars of religion know the Bible. The extremists know the Bible. And, advent followers know the Bible. The rest: do not. I think many of us have shown much evidence to support this.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Brakeman on March 17, 2010, 12:32:56 PM
"most" probably not, but likely a totally horrifying minority!

I don't believe that. ..

-Nam


I didn't mean that the minority percentage was horrifyingly close to 50 percent. I meant that the minority  is horrifyingly not Zero.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 17, 2010, 02:43:05 PM
Is there any one in this thread interested in actual discussion? I'm going to start putting people on ignore because they are taking up valuable space. But if you have a genuine question, feel free to ask.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 17, 2010, 03:11:58 PM
Is there any one in this thread interested in actual discussion? I'm going to start putting people on ignore because they are taking up valuable space. But if you have a genuine question, feel free to ask.

Taking up "valuable" space. How dare you come to this forum and pretend to know what is valuable to us or not.

The fact is you are simply trying to proselytize and are not at all interested in "discussion," so get off your high horse and you might be able to learn a little something about how normal people think and understand reality instead of dealing in myths, lies and superstitions.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 17, 2010, 03:17:28 PM
Taking up "valuable" space. How dare you come to this forum and pretend to know what is valuable to us or not.

The fact is you are simply trying to proselytize and are not at all interested in "discussion," so get off your high horse and you might be able to learn a little something about how normal people think and understand reality instead of dealing in myths, lies and superstitions.
This is just as much my forum as it is yours. I was here before you and I'll be here after.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Azdgari on March 17, 2010, 03:33:38 PM
Trolls don't tend to have much success in taking ownership of a forum.  Just an FYI.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 17, 2010, 03:34:29 PM

This is just as much my forum as it is yours. I was here before you and I'll be here after.

"I know you are, but what am I?"

Stop evangelizing.

Get over yourself, too, you have no more material than the last lazy theist that tries to convert.

That is what you're doing, right?

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 17, 2010, 03:39:20 PM
Is there any one in this thread interested in actual discussion? I'm going to start putting people on ignore
I doubt it.  We don't have that function here.

Quote
because they are taking up valuable space. But if you have a genuine question, feel free to ask.
There's legit questions that you aren't answering so that excuso-whinge isn't going to wash.

For example... again...

Did Jesus say that homosexuals should be put to death?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 17, 2010, 03:41:16 PM
And just in case you can't see the above post because the font is too small...


Did Jesus say that homosexuals should be put to death?

Yes or no?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Grogan on March 17, 2010, 03:44:40 PM
Do Jesus and God have different thoughts and minds?

Do they always agree on everything?

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: One Above All on March 17, 2010, 03:59:02 PM
why doesnt jesus do ANY of the things he promised in his book?
and why does he utterly despise amputees?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 17, 2010, 04:48:32 PM
Did Jesus say that homosexuals should be put to death?
No such comment was recorded.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 17, 2010, 04:49:24 PM
why doesnt jesus do ANY of the things he promised in his book?
and why does he utterly despise amputees?
Blaziken,
     Do you know that I get reported for proselytizing if I talk about why God does things?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 17, 2010, 04:50:34 PM
Did Jesus say that homosexuals should be put to death?
No such comment was recorded.

Funny how some of the old testament is valid and some is not and some of the new testament is valid and some is not and let's call the whole thing off...

You people are insane, do you know that?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 17, 2010, 04:51:04 PM
Did Jesus say that homosexuals should be put to death?
No such comment was recorded.

Thanks for your answer.

I have another...


Would Jesus WANT homosexuals to be put to death?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 17, 2010, 04:52:41 PM
Would Jesus WANT homosexuals to be put to death?
Well, you'll probably report me for referencing the Bible, but it says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

So no, in God's perfect world there would be no homosexuals being put to death.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 17, 2010, 04:53:32 PM
Is there any one in this thread interested in actual discussion? I'm going to start putting people on ignore because they are taking up valuable space. But if you have a genuine question, feel free to ask.

Go ahead and ignore me, Tool. That way I can be spared your "wisdom" and  you can remain ignorant.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Fool on March 17, 2010, 04:54:43 PM
Apparently there is no ignore function, so I'll just disregard from now on.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Grogan on March 17, 2010, 05:02:15 PM
Apparently there is no ignore function, so I'll just disregard from now on.

Please address my comments and questions, thanks.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: One Above All on March 17, 2010, 05:07:02 PM
why doesnt jesus do ANY of the things he promised in his book?
and why does he utterly despise amputees?
Blaziken,
     Do you know that I get reported for proselytizing if I talk about why God does things?

no, you got reported for quoting bible verses without either talking about those verses and proving them to be true or proving the bible to be true as a whole
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 17, 2010, 05:22:40 PM
Would Jesus WANT homosexuals to be put to death?
Well, you'll probably report me for referencing the Bible, but it says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

So no, in God's perfect world there would be no homosexuals being put to death.

Interesting.  Well, if/when you get out of the ER can you answer the next one...

Would Jesus want YOU to want homosexuals to be put to death?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 17, 2010, 05:24:46 PM


So no, in God's perfect world there would be no homosexuals being put to death.

Nice dodge by use of reframing.

Now let's address THIS world, which is NOT "god's perfect world."

Would god want homosexuals to be put to death in THIS world?

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 17, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
So no, in God's perfect world there would be no homosexuals being put to death.

So god didn't create a perfect world  :?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 17, 2010, 05:33:00 PM
^^ No he did create a perfect world... it's just that that one little thing that he has no control over, you know, free will, buggered it all up and made it imperfect.  &)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 17, 2010, 05:37:26 PM
^^ No he did create a perfect world... it's just that that one little thing that he has no control over, you know, free will, buggered it all up and made it imperfect.  &)

Free will causes natural disasters. OOOOOOH, I get it now.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 17, 2010, 06:28:59 PM
Is there any one in this thread interested in actual discussion? I'm going to start putting people on ignore because they are taking up valuable space. But if you have a genuine question, feel free to ask.

My question was genuine, no matter how it rubs you. I'd like to know, typical solid tube-shaped always, or the occasional two day bout of miracle quashing montazuma's revenge? A rectal aperture or none?

Additional, did he have a fully functional regular endocrine system, or did it lack components required for the reproductive process?

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 17, 2010, 06:31:23 PM
Taking up "valuable" space. How dare you come to this forum and pretend to know what is valuable to us or not.

The fact is you are simply trying to proselytize and are not at all interested in "discussion," so get off your high horse and you might be able to learn a little something about how normal people think and understand reality instead of dealing in myths, lies and superstitions.
This is just as much my forum as it is yours. I was here before you and I'll be here after.

I was here before you and I will probably be here after you, Mark-Adam, so is it more my forum now?

You should apologize for your emotional outburst.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Sister Chromatid on March 17, 2010, 06:58:04 PM

This is just as much my forum as it is yours. I was here before you and I'll be here after.

Not really.  This is a forum for non believers and those recovering from religion... it's a forum for the rational.  Although you are free to hang out here, it really isn't a forum designed to make believers in the supernatural feel at home.  This is no more your forum than it is a Muslim forum or Scientologist forum.  We don't believe in your magic men any more than you believe in theirs.  I don't go to woo forums and tell the woo how gullible I think they are, but I feel free to do so here.

I'm an equal opportunity mocker.  I like it when self-righteous theists (such as yourself) drop by here on atheist territory so they can be treated the way they treat all those who do not share their magical beliefs.  Personally, I think all religionists should be as polite and unassuming as they want the other wacky religionists to be.  Because to this atheist you are all equally wrong about the magical things you believe in.  Each religionist may feel they are obviously more moral than those who believe differently, but we atheists don't see your imagined morality (nor your imagined humility either).  I find you all a bit smarmy and dishonest-- you have to be to keep lying to yourself and to keep telling yourself that faith is something good.   

There's no evidence that Jesus actually existed as opposed to being an amalgam of legendary characters, false memories, or schizophrenic delusions.  There is no way to know anything true about any supposed real Jesus fellow-- and it's pretentious and goofy to imagine that you (fool) have insight into the divine.  Jesus is less knowable than Muhummed in fact. 

At least atheists don't run around claiming to "know" inane things they cannot know regarding divine, invisible, undetectable beings and their incarnate sons (who are really them) via some mystical triune monotheistic semantic nuttery that makes no sense at all.  But many theists do.  Sadly, they don't seem to agree with each other on much of the details, but each feels as right as Fred Phelps.       
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 17, 2010, 07:07:05 PM
Well, you'll probably report me for referencing the Bible, but it says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

So no, in God's perfect world there would be no homosexuals being put to death.

Fool, I have started a new topic here http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=13271.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=13271.0) based on your answer.  I would like your comment over there, so that this topic won't be derailed.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kg6mso on March 17, 2010, 11:18:40 PM
Please ask, I love Jesus and I love talking about Him.


How about this. Outside the bible can you PROVE he existed?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kevyrat69 on March 18, 2010, 12:48:01 AM
Here is a question: Why didn't Mathew or John mention the ascension of Jesus and the non-eye witnesses did?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 18, 2010, 12:54:27 AM
Why does Jesus hate fig trees?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Brakeman on March 18, 2010, 07:13:00 AM
Why does Jesus hate fig trees?

Yes, Fool, Nowadays we know why Plants, AKA Fig Trees, bear fruit and why they do not. It's called horticulture. We now know that the fig tree wasn't really being evil, and it wasn't possessed of the debil, it was just being a fig tree. So why wasn't jesus smart enough to know this?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Sister Chromatid on March 18, 2010, 08:15:19 AM
If you have questions about Mary Poppins, please ask.  I love Mary Poppins and love talking about her.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 18, 2010, 08:24:24 AM
^^^^^ Hugs!  :D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: velkyn on March 18, 2010, 08:34:13 AM
If you have questions about Mary Poppins, please ask.  I love Mary Poppins and love talking about her.
now that sounds like we'd have more use in that than watching Fool run around in circles. Love love love that movie. 

Bert: Speaking of names, I know a man with a wooden leg named Smith.
Uncle Albert: What's the name of his other leg?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 18, 2010, 12:53:24 PM
Is there any one in this thread interested in actual discussion? I'm going to start putting people on ignore because they are taking up valuable space. But if you have a genuine question, feel free to ask.

I've made several posts, and you've replied to none of them.  If anyone isn't discussing anything, it's you.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 18, 2010, 12:54:29 PM
If anyone isn't discussing anything, it's you.

Word...
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: onlyonus on March 18, 2010, 01:31:47 PM
I guess I can forget about having my question answered.
Not that he could anyway.
To the one called Fool...
You need to realise that you set yourself up to take a thrashing.
The people here are not blind idiots.
Nor do they rely on other people to "give them inlightenment".
They are well read, smart, and impossable to fool.
Just walk away, and be glad that all you have lost is your pride.
And self confidence.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 18, 2010, 01:34:09 PM
To the one called Fool...
You need to realise that you set yourself up to take a thrashing.

Classic Martyr Syndrome...
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: velkyn on March 18, 2010, 01:37:04 PM
I believe Fool is in the ER and won't be able to respond for a while, if ever.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: RaymondKHessel on March 18, 2010, 02:11:28 PM
That's a real shame. I think we were quickly approaching unprecedented levels of goofy.

Now we'll all have to go the rest of our lives wondering what could of been. Sigh.



Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 18, 2010, 02:13:00 PM
That's a real shame. I think we were quickly approaching unprecedented levels of goofy.

Now we'll all have to go the rest of our lives wondering what could of been. Sigh.





I am sure another one will show up.  They can't help it.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 18, 2010, 02:13:05 PM
If you have questions about Mary Poppins, please ask.  I love Mary Poppins and love talking about her.
now that sounds like we'd have more use in that than watching Fool run around in circles. Love love love that movie. 

Bert: Speaking of names, I know a man with a wooden leg named Smith.
Uncle Albert: What's the name of his other leg?

We love to laugh
Loud and long and clear
We love to laugh
So everybody can hear
The more you laugh
The more you fill with glee
And the more the glee
The more we're a merrier we!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: velkyn on March 18, 2010, 02:34:23 PM
Agreed, we'll just get another fool to replace this one.

And, back to Mary Poppins, I've always loved the chimney sweeps song and dance.  It's so delightfully creepy. 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 18, 2010, 02:35:17 PM
If only Dick Van Dyke had done a better cockney accent ....
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 18, 2010, 02:35:46 PM
Agreed, we'll just get another fool to replace this one.

And, back to Mary Poppins, I've always loved the chimney sweeps song and dance.  It's so delightfully creepy. 

My favorite line in that move is:  "Only British people can fly!"
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: velkyn on March 18, 2010, 02:38:22 PM
My favorite line in that move is:  "Only British people can fly!"

Like Bedknobs and Broomsticks? (another favorite of mine, witches whacking Nazis!)  If one is into fantasy and such, I've always figured that Mary and Bert were really some type of Fae.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 18, 2010, 02:39:30 PM
My favorite line in that move is:  "Only British people can fly!"

Like Bedknobs and Broomsticks? (another favorite of mine, witches whacking Nazis!)  If one is into fantasy and such, I've always figured that Mary and Bert were really some type of Fae.

I won't even TRY to understand Alice in Wonderland...
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kevyrat69 on March 18, 2010, 05:02:59 PM
If you have questions about Mary Poppins, please ask.  I love Mary Poppins and love talking about her.

Did Mary Poppins need an umbrela to fly?  Did she really use a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down?

Was she born from a virgin or was it the normal way (like sex)?

How did she get her special powers?  Could she walk on water?

Oh Sister C I have so many questions.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Pale Rider on March 18, 2010, 06:17:39 PM
I need an answer to all these:

Why are there no sculptures?
Why are there no drawings?
Why nothing written in his own hand?
Why no letters?
Why no commentaries?

Why no authentic documents written by his Jewish and Gentile contemporaries.
Justice of Tiberius, Philo, Josephus, Seneca, Petronius Arbiter, Pliny the Elder

And don't even try the TF by Josepheus that thing has already been proven a forgery.

Fool wrote:

Quote
Jesus claimed to exist before the world was made, and called God his Father.

How is that not a claim to divinity?

How? No evidence, no records nothing. Sure he existed it rises and sets everyday the "Sun" get it? Sun of God and Son of Man. He's a myth pure and simple. If you check out your ten commandments you will find they are an almost exact replica of the Spell 125 in the Egyptian Book of Dead only thing your so called Christian fathers did was change the wording. Care to look:

Exodus 20:2-17
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

Here is chapter 125 online
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/EGYPT/BOD125.HTM

Also compare Jesus to the Egyptian God Horus almost identical MO. In fact if you compare him to about 15 others you will find most have the same MO. Its not new, most all mythological figures have now been realized as myth Zeus among others.   
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 18, 2010, 06:30:57 PM
This is long post so had to split in to two parts, once you read this show me what evidence you have for a biblical jesus, thank you.
You are after all the one claiming he existed.

Part one.

There is no evidence for a biblical jesus

There may have been a man called jesus, just the same as there may have been a man called fred.
it by no means make him divine!

There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus.
Much of the "evidence" cited is false, or suspect, or very late.

Josephus is considered some of the best evidence - even though is is generally considered to be tampered with, if not an outright forgery (of course, the word used is "interpolated" - scholars avoid the word "forgery" even though that's exactly what it is.)




JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)

The famous Testamonium Flavianum is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :
* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the Jew Josephus (who refused to call anyone "messiah"),
* The T.F. comes in several versions of various ages,
* The T.F. was not mentioned by Origen when he reviewed Josephus - Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.
* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.
* (The other tiny passage in Josephus is probably a later interpolation.)
An analysis of Josephus can be found here:
http://www.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/supp10.htm
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html

In short - this passage is possibly a total forgery (or at best a corrupt form of a lost original.)
Such is the weakness of this evidence, This suspect passage is considered some of the best "evidence" for a historical Jesus of Nazareth, go figure.


TACITUS (c.112CE)

Roughly 80 years after the alleged events (and 40 years after the war) Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used.
* Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
* Tacitus accepts the recent advent of Christianity, which was against Roman practice (to only allow ancient and accepted cults and religions.)
* (No-one refers to this passage for a millennium, even early Christians who actively sought such passages.)

This evidence speaks AGAINST it being based on any Roman records -
but it is merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.)
So this passage is NOT evidence for Jesus,
it's just evidence for 2nd century Christian stories about Jesus.
http://oll.libertyfund.org/ToC/0067.php
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/tacitus.html


PLINY the Younger (c.112CE)

About 80 years after the alleged events, (and over 40 years after the war) Pliny referred to Christians who worshipped a "Christ" as a god, but there is no reference to a historical Jesus or Gospel events.
So Pliny is not evidence for a historical Jesus of Nazareth,
just evidence for 2nd century Christians who worshipped a Christ.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/pliny.html


SUETONIUS (c.115CE)

Roughly 80-90 years after the alleged Gospel events, (about 75 years after the war) Suetonius refers to a "Chrestus" who stirred the Jews to trouble in Rome during Claudius' time, but:
* this "Chrestus" is a Greek name (from "useful"), and is also a mystic name for an initiate, it is not the same as "Christos"
* this Chrestus was apparently active in Rome, Jesus never was.
So this passage is not evidence for Jesus,
it's nothing to do with Jesus,
it's evidence for Christians grasping at straws.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/suetonius.html


IGNATIUS (107CE? 130-170CE?)

The letters of Ignatius are traditionally dated to c.107, yet:
* it is not clear if he really existed, his story is suspicious,
* his letters are notoriously corrupt and in 2 versions,
* it is probable that his letters were later forgeries,
* he mentions only a tiny few items about Jesus.
So Ignatius is no evidence for Jesus himself,
at BEST it is 2nd century evidence to a few beliefs about Jesus.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html


QUADRATUS (c.125CE)

Quadratus apparently wrote an Apology to Hadrian (117-138), but:
* we have none of his works,
* it is not certain when he wrote,
* all we have is 1 sentence quoted much later.
So Quadratus is uncertain evidence from about a century later.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/quadratus.html


THALLUS (date unknown)

We have NO certain evidence when Thallus lived or wrote, there are NONE of Thallus' works extant.
What we DO have is a 9th century reference by George Syncellus who quotes the 3rd century Julianus Africanus, who, speaking of the darkness at the crucifixion, wrote: "Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse".
But there is NO evidence Thallus made specific reference to Jesus or the Gospel events at all, as there WAS an eclipse in 29. This suggests he merely referred to a known eclipse, but that LATER Christians MIS-interpreted his comment to mean their darkness. (Also note the supposed reference to Thallus in Eusebius is a false reading.)

Richard Carrier the historian has a good page on Thallus:
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/thallus.html

So Thallus is no evidence for Jesus at all,
merely evidence for Christian wishful thinking.


PHLEGON (c.140)

Phlegon wrote during the 140s - his works are lost. Later, Origen, Eusebius, and Julianus Africanus (as quoted by George Syncellus) refer to him, but quote differently his reference to an eclipse. There is no evidence Phlegon actually said anything about Gospel events, he was merely talking about an eclipse (they DO happen) which LATER Christians argued was the "darkness" in their stories.
So Phlegon is no evidence for Jesus at all -
merely evidence for Christian wishful thinking.


VALENTINUS (c.140CE)

In mid 2nd century the GNOSTIC Valentinus almost became Bishop of Rome, but:
* he was several generations after the alleged events,
* he wrote of an esoteric, Gnostic Jesus and Christ,
* he mentioned no historical details about Jesus.
So Valentinus is no evidence for a historical Jesus.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/valentinus.html


POLYCARP (c.155CE)

Polycarp wrote in mid 2nd century, but :
* he is several generations after the alleged events,
* he gives many sayings of Jesus (some of which do NOT match the Gospels),
* he does NOT name any evangelist or Gospel.
So Polycarp knew sayings of Jesus,
but provides no actual evidence for a historical Jesus.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html


LUCIAN (c.170CE)

Nearly one-and-a-half CENTURIES after the alleged events, Lucian satirised Christians, but :
* this was several generations later,
* Lucian does NOT even mention Jesus or Christ by name.
So Lucian is no evidence for a historical Jesus, merely late 2nd century lampooning of Christians.


GALEN (late 2nd C.)

Late 2nd century, Galen makes a few references to Christians, and briefly to Christ.
This is far too late to be evidence for Jesus.


NUMENIUS (2nd C.?)

In the 3rd century, Origen claimed Numenius "quotes also a narrative regarding Jesus--without, however, mentioning His name" - i.e. Numenius mentioned a story but said nothing about Jesus, but by Origen's time it had become attached to Jesus' name.
This not any evidence for Jesus, it's just later wishful thinking.


TALMUD (3rd C. and later)

The Talmud was written over the third, fourth, and fifth centuries.
In the tractiate Sanhedrin, page 43a it mentions a Yeshua(Jehoshua), who was hung for forty days before his execution. it also states he was born a hundred years pre-christ and that he had five disciples Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah who were executed along side him.
* these references are from 3rd century or later, and seem to be (unfriendly) Jewish responses to Christian claims.
* the references are highly variant, have many cryptic names for Jesus, and are very different to the Gospel stories
So the Talmud contains NO evidence for Jesus,
the Talmud merely has much later Jewish responses to the Gospel stories.
http://www.heartofisrael.org/chazak...es/intalmud.htm

This Yeshua is not the same jesus now is he


christianity is simply a mishmash of much older religions, and below is a list of other writers (apart from the ones in the above links) around at the time of this alleged christ, that wrote nothing whatsoever about him.
Some even walked the same paths, but heard and wrote nothing.

Philo Judaeus lived in Alexandria, he spent time in Jerusalem and had family there during the times of Jesus. He wrote many books about the Jews and their religion and history. He developed the themes of the Logos and the Holy Spirit.
No mention of Jesus or the Gospel events.
Valerius Maximus wrote historical anecdotes c.30CE
No mention of Jesus or the Gospel events.
Marcus Manilius wrote on astrology/astronomy in Rome early 1st century.
No mention of Jesus or the Gospel events.

Writers from shortly after Jesus time:
Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.
Petronius Arbiter wrote the Satyricon in Rome.
C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome.
Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote several satires in Rome.
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome.
Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy.
Geminus wrote on astronomy in Greece.
Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia.
Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of the Kings of the Jews shortly after the time of Jesus, and from the same region - his works are now lost, but Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople wrote in the 8th Century: ''Read the Chronicle of Justus of Tiberias, entitled A Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews in the form of a genealogy, by Justus of Tiberias. He came from Tiberias in Galilee, from which he took his name. He begins his history with Moses and carries it down to the death of the seventh Agrippa of the family of Herod and the last of the Kings of the Jews. His kingdom, which was bestowed upon him by Claudius, was extended by Nero, and still more by Vespasian. He died in the third year of Trajan, when the history ends. Justus' style is very concise and he omits a great deal that is of utmost importance. Suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by Him. His father was a Jew named Pistus; Justus himself, according to Josephus, was one of the most abandoned of men, a slave to vice and greed. He was a political opponent of Josephus, against whom he is said to have concocted several plots; but Josephus, although on several occasions he had his enemy in his power, only chastised him with words and let him go ... "
Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus) wrote a large Natural History in Rome.
Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) was the dominant Roman Orator of the times (his works show Stoic and Cynic ideas), and wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome - his many speeches are lost.
Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome.
NONE of these early writers even MENTIONED Jesus or the Gospel events.
Only AFTER the Gospels became known in mid 2nd century (LONG long after the alleged events) did anyone mention Jesus.
There are about 50 writers from the 1st century - NONE of them mention Jesus.
But,they DO mention many HUNDREDS, maybe even THOUSANDS of characters in their books - including minor nobodies like servants and family, un-important names mentioned once in passing.
But NOTHING about Jesus - who must have been LESS important, LESS known, LESS notable than the most minor nobody.

Heres a few others you may want to look up.
Aulus Perseus (60 AD)
Columella (1 st. cent. AD)
Dio Chrysostom (c. 40-c. 112 AD)
Justus of Tiberious (c. 80 AD)
Livy (59 BC-17 AD)
Lucanus (fl. 63 AD)
Lucius Flours (1st-2nd -cent. AD)
Petronius (d. 66 AD)
Phaedrus (c. 15 BC-c. 50 AD)
Philo Judaeus (20 BC-50 AD)
Phlegon (1st cent. AD)
Pliny the Elder (23?-69 AD)
Plutarch (c.46-c. 119 AD)
Pomponius Mela (40 AD)
Rufus Curtius (1st cent. AD)
Quintilian (c. 35-c. 100 AD)
Quintus Curtius (1st cent. AD)
Seneca (4 BC?-65 AD)
Silius Italicus (.25-101 AD)
Statius Caelicius (1st cent. AD)
Theon of Smyrna (c. 70-c.135 AD)
Valerius Flaccus (1st cent AD)
Valerius Maximus (fl. c. 20 AD).

There is no historicity for a jesus person.

Now to the gospels

G.Mark

It is consensus among modern scholars that the first Gospel to be written was G.Mark - but it clearly was NOT by an eye-witness, for several reasons :
* G.Mark shows ignorance of Palestine geography,
* G.Mark shows dependence on oral tradition,
* G.Mark was most likely written for a Roman audience,
* Ireneus says G.Mark was written in Rome.
* G.Mark was largely crafted from the whole cloth of the OT.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html

For more detail, I suggest Michael Turton's great work on G.Mark:
http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark_index.html

It is sometimes argued that Mark was the secretary of Peter, but this seems unlikely for several other reasons -
* there is no evidence in the NT stories to support Mark being Peter's secretary,
* G.Mark shows the structure of literature crafted from the Jewish scriptures, not recorded conversations,
* G.Mark includes many scenes in Peter was NOT present, which can only mean they are fiction.
* Peter is a cowardly dullard in G.Mark which ends with Peter un-redeemed after having betrayed Jesus (G.Mark ended 16:8 with the empty tomb - G.Mark 16:9-20 is merely the most popular of one of a number of later endings which were attached to the abrupt end 16:8.). A secretary recording the words of a hallowed elder would hardly portray him like that.

It is also sometimes noted that Papias gives early evidence of G.Mark (and is the source of the Peter connection) - but Papias refers to G.Mark being the recollections of Peter but "adapted as needed" ... "but not in order". This just does not match at all well with G.Mark, which is in chronological order, and shows no sign of being the adapted words of Peter.

G.Matthew

It is the firm consensus of scholars that G.Matthew was NOT written by a disciple, because :
* it depends largely on G.Mark, copied word for word, while making changes based on theology, not history
* it conflicts with statements by Papias and Ireneus,
* it shows signs of being a 2nd or 3rd generation work
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/matthew.html

It is also sometimes noted that Papias gives early evidence of G.Matthew - but Papias refers to G.Mark being written in Hebrew - this just does not match at all well with G.Matthew, which was written in Greek.

1,2 Peter

Scholars agree that the letters attributed to Peter were forged by 2 different people, neither of whom had ever met Jesus - 1 Peter probably writen in Rome c.90, 2 Peter in early-mid 2nd century.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1peter.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html

G.John

Scholars agree that the Gospel of John could NOT be by an eye-witness - because :
* the issue regarding expulsion from the synagogues - such a glaring anachronism could not be by an eye-witness,
* at one stage this Gospel was believed to be written by Cerinthus (and thus rejected),
* it tells such a different, and fantastic, story.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html

False NT attributions

The same is true of all the NT documents (apart from Paul1) - NONE are by an eye-witness, all are later FORGED by unknown authors who never met Jesus -
* James (FORGED in c.80s)
* 1 John (FORGED in c.80s)
* 2 Thessalonians (FORGED in c.80s)
* Ephesians (FORGED in c.90s)
* 1 Peter (FORGED in c.90s)
* Jude (FORGED in c.100s)
* 1 Timothy (FORGED in c.120s)
* 2 Timothy (FORGED in c.120s)
* Titus (FORGED in c.120s)
* 2 John (FORGED in c.120s)
* 3 John (FORGED in 120s)
* 2 Peter (FORGED in c.130s)
The arguments for these can be all be found at Peter Kirby's or in Brown NT Commentary e.g.


No NT author met Jesus

So, of the NT authors we find -
* Paul only met Jesus in a VISION,
* several of "Paul's" letters were forged by unknown authors,
* G.Mark was written in Rome by someone who never met Jesus,
* G.Matthew was largely copied from G.Mark, not by an eye-witness,
* G.Luke was largely copied from G.Mark, not by an eye-witness (A.Luke does NOT claim to be an eye-witness, A.Luke does NOT claim he spoke to eye-witnesses, he merely refers to eye-witnesses as distant sources),
* G.John was written long afterwards by someone who never met Jesus,
* Jude - forged by an unknown author who never met Jesus,
* 1,2 Peter - forged by 2 unknown authors who never met Jesus,
* James - forged by unknown author who never met Jesus,
* 1,2,3 John - forged by unknown authors in early-mid 2nd century who never met Jesus.

In other words - the general consensus of modern NT scholars is that NOT ONE SINGLE NT document was written by anyone who ever met Jesus. You can check this is any modern commentary - try Brown's or the New Jerome or see Peter Kirby's.

"This article is only about the historicity of Jesus - whether he existed as a real person. That is the only point that historians regard as effectively proven; that he existed, not that the claims made about him are true."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Historicity_of_Jesus.
nowhere in any Roman records does it state that a jesus person, was executed by Pilate, this is only written in the NT. And the Romans kept meticulous records.

Continues next post.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 18, 2010, 06:33:40 PM
Continued from previous post

Part two

Claiming that the bible is a historical document

In other words - a very old document which appears to tell a history of ancient times. There are many such documents, of varying quality - but no such ancient book is true just because some believer, then or now, BELIEVES it to be true.

All old writings must be evaluated by all the methods at our disposal. Christians sometimes try to argue that ancient documents can be presumed to be true, unless proven otherwise - sometimes even invoking the irrelevant phrase "innocent until proven guilty" or even invoking a supposed law of Aristotle.
Well, this is nonsense - no historian assumes an ancient book to be true, and certainly not religious works, and nor did Aristotle say so. Rather all ancient writings are criticised and compared and analysed carefully to see what can be considered reliable, and what is myths and legends or lies or exaggeration or just plain error.

Consider some other ancient works

The Golden Ass of Apuleius - this "historical document" tells the story of how Apuleius turned into an Ass and met the gods face to face. It dates to the very same period as the Gospels, is set in historical places and includes historical figures and events. It has speeches and stories and miracles and divine events, including an EMPTY TOMB scene!. In short it is very similar to the Gospels.
http://eserver.org/books/apuleius/

The Iliad - this "historical document" is famous and very well attested indeed. This work was seminal in Greek culture and includes real places and realistic people, it has Gods and miracles and speeches and heroes - to the Greeks, Homer was like the Bible.
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html

Both of these writings are similar to the Gospels and are similarly true - i.e. not particularly true at all. In other words being a "historical document" means nothing about a books truthfulness.

So getting back to the point, yes there could have been a jesus, but not the one written in the bible, thats all, so whether the Muslims have a jesus who was a prophet, or the Jews a Yeshua, who was executed along with his five disciples, a hundred years earlier, does not mean your jesus actually existed.

And NT Authorship

The New Testament alone consists of twenty-seven books written by at least eight different authors. Furthermore, of those eight, only three (Matthew, Peter, and John) were a part of the original twelve disciples. Of the remaining five, two were originally skeptical concerning Jesus' identity. One was a great persecutor of Christians and even consented to the execution of the first New Testament martyr. One was a gentile, and one was a young boy when Jesus lived and taught. Additionally, these New Testament authors came from a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences. One was a tax collector, another a physician. Another was a highly educated Pharisee. At least two were fishermen while two others grew up as the children of a carpenter and most likely learned that trade."

The NT must be judged on its merits like any ancient writing - and it HAS been so judged and evaluated, it is one of the most studied works in Western culture

With the exception of some of the letters of Paul, we do NOT KNOW for sure who wrote ANY of the remaining books of the Bible - all we know is what we find IN the books. (Bear in mind there is no external evidence of any kind about Paul either, but some one person wrote most of those letters and we call him Paul mostly for convenience.)
The Gospels were originally anonymous documents of unknown origin - the earliest mentions of Gospels are as UN-NAMED works, the current titles were not attached to the four Gospels until late 2nd century by Iraneus based on a few earlier scraps and speculations. Before then we see various references to Gospels without authors - by Aristides, Justin, Ignatius, Polycarp, Theodotus, Hegesippus, Melito, Polycrates, Autolycus - all make reference to anonymous Gospel(s).

Papias does make some unclear comments possibly in about 130CE which refer to writings by Mark, and writings by Matthew - however his comments do NOT match our modern Gospels, and he does NOT use the word "Gospel", and he makes it clear he holds such writings in LOW regard.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/papias.html

Justin in about 150CE is the first to make lengthy quotes of Gospels almost like the modern ones - but he calls them "memoirs of the apostles" as well as "Gospels" but gives NO authors' names.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/justin.html

Aristides, possibly just before Justin, described a singular, un-named Gospel that had "been preached for a short time". This is an important clue - a church father who mentions "the Gospel, as it is called" - showing that is what it is called "the Gospel", no name, just one. Furthermore he explicitly says it had only been preached for a "short time", perhaps a few years - evidence for when the Gospel became known in Christian circles.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...tides-kay.html

Tatian possibly wrote an important work called the "diaTessaron" (literally "from four", implying a harmony of four, meaning a harmony of four Gospels) about 172 (after he split from the early Christian. This numbering of the Gospels as four seems to occur slightly before they are actually named, and may have come about because Tatian inherited the "memoirs of the Apostles" from Justin, and there were four of them, but they had not yet been named.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/diatessaron.html

It was not until about 185CE that the Gospels received their current names with Irenaeus.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/irenaeus.html

So there you have it.


 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 18, 2010, 08:28:46 PM
Oh, my wow! ^^^ that is awesome! I need to bookmark that!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Sister Chromatid on March 18, 2010, 08:35:02 PM
If you have questions about Mary Poppins, please ask.  I love Mary Poppins and love talking about her.

Did Mary Poppins need an umbrela to fly?  Did she really use a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down?

Was she born from a virgin or was it the normal way (like sex)?

How did she get her special powers?  Could she walk on water?

Oh Sister C I have so many questions.

Yes (so it's not really flying... more like gliding), yes, no (she was conceived using the Kama Sutra), it's beyond your understanding, no --but she was a fantastic at synchronized swimming!

I hope that answers your questions!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 18, 2010, 08:49:48 PM
I have a Mary Poppins question:  Why didn't she use her magic to improve Bert's accent?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 19, 2010, 12:57:11 PM
Like Bedknobs and Broomsticks? (another favorite of mine, witches whacking Nazis!)  If one is into fantasy and such, I've always figured that Mary and Bert were really some type of Fae.

I just watched Bye Bye Birdie last night with Dick Van Dyke. I like some of the songs but most of them were lame, and I felt the entire movie was a bit boring.  I've never seen a boring Dick Van Dyke movie before. This is a first for me.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 19, 2010, 01:00:31 PM
I just watched Bye Bye Birdie last night with Dick Van Dyke. I like some of the songs but most of them were lame, and I felt the entire movie was a bit boring.  I've never seen a boring Dick Van Dyke movie before. This is a first for me.

-Nam


It's because they completely demolished the story when translating it from stage to film.  The film should have been titled. "Hello, Ann-Margret".  I  think Dick Van Dyke made that comment once.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 19, 2010, 01:05:43 PM
^^^ I guess it's one of those "you had to be there" (in the 60s) !!

I loved it. But then, I'm old. (though I was just a kid when it first came out).

Also, for some bizarre reason, I always get it mixed up with "Goodbye Charlie" with Tony Curtis, Debbie Reynolds, Walter Matthau and a few others.

Charlie is a womanizer who gets shot and falls into the ocean, where he gets reincarnated as Debbie Reynolds. Fun, laughter and embarrassing moments ensue.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 19, 2010, 01:08:29 PM
^^^ I guess it's one of those "you had to be there" (in the 60s) !!

I loved it. But then, I'm old. (though I was just a kid when it first came out).

Also, for some bizarre reason, I always get it mixed up with "Goodbye Charlie" with Tony Curtis, Debbie Reynolds, Walter Matthau and a few others.

Charlie is a womanizer who gets shot and falls into the ocean, where he gets reincarnated as Debbie Reynolds. Fun, laughter and embarrassing moments ensue.
I wasn't even born when "Bye Bye Birdie" came out.  Well, a few months later I was.  I just happen to like old movies. 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Operator_011 on March 19, 2010, 01:10:15 PM
<Public service announcement>

Fool has been banned from WWGHA so won't be able to respond to any more questions about Jesus.

<Public service announcement>


Move along now. Nothing to see here.


Eleven.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 19, 2010, 01:11:47 PM
It's because they completely demolished the story when translating it from stage to film.  The film should have been titled. "Hello, Ann-Margret".  I  think Dick Van Dyke made that comment once.

I think, for me, it's just too long.  It's like the Fred Astaire film "Daddy Long Legs". I mean, overall, I like that film. But the problem is, it was too long. they seemed to make it too much of a musical, and didn't really focus on the story.  I actually like the silent film better than that one; and I don't care too much for silent films, to tell the truth.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 19, 2010, 03:26:21 PM
<Public service announcement>
Fool has been banned from WWGHA so won't be able to respond to any more questions about Jesus.
<Public service announcement>

You're trying to get us to believe that god exists, aren't you?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 19, 2010, 03:28:39 PM

You're trying to get us to believe that god exists, aren't you?




(http://dl6.glitter-graphics.net/pub/969/969356n04i0j45gk.gif)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Operator_011 on March 19, 2010, 03:39:22 PM
You're trying to get us to believe that god exists, aren't you?

Damn, I've been busted again. <Tips hat>
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 19, 2010, 04:03:44 PM
You're Hermes.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: GodIsDead on March 19, 2010, 04:50:14 PM
Here is my question about Jesus.

Do you think Jesus would like modern day Christians?

Do you think Jesus would "buy in" to the shit these churches spew forth in his name?


I think modern day Christians would make Jesus CRY out in disgust.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Pale Rider on March 19, 2010, 06:02:26 PM
I don't think he would (if he existed?) the word Christian did not appear until some 40 years after his supposed death? No way he could have even known about it. and besides he was Jewish not Christian according to legend.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 19, 2010, 06:58:03 PM
I just watched Bye Bye Birdie last night with Dick Van Dyke. I like some of the songs but most of them were lame, and I felt the entire movie was a bit boring.  I've never seen a boring Dick Van Dyke movie before. This is a first for me.

-Nam


Ann Margaret couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. What were they thinking when they cast her?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 19, 2010, 07:00:14 PM
Ann Margaret couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. What were they thinking when they cast her?

She could twitch her ass.  lol
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 19, 2010, 07:24:10 PM
Ann Margaret couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. What were they thinking when they cast her?

She could twitch her ass.  lol

LOL. Ok, the thing is I appreciate talent in whatever package it come in. I don't care if it can twitch its ass, even if it's talent coming from a guy. Besides, I am sure they could have found a singer that could twitch her ass. Ann Margaret can act, she can't sing. Hey wait a minute, couldn't they have had her lip sinc, it would have saved us from that screeching.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 19, 2010, 07:32:26 PM
LOL. Ok, the thing is I appreciate talent in whatever package it come in. I don't care if it can twitch its ass, even if it's talent coming from a guy. Besides, I am sure they could have found a singer that could twitch her ass. Ann Margaret can act, she can't sing. Hey wait a minute, couldn't they have had her lip sinc, it would have saved us from that screeching.
Ann-Margret was big box office at the time.  That's all they were looking at.  They even went so far as to shift the emphasis of the film from the Albert/Rosie story to her character.  Big mistake.  It completely unfocused the whole film.  Also -- this is a pet grievance -- why didn't they cast Chita Rivera as Rosie?  lol
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 19, 2010, 10:41:27 PM
^^^It would make too much sense. But, maybe she was busy on Broadway at the time. Who knows, maybe they wanted a whiter cast. I dunno, I am still flumoxed over Ann Margaret being in the film.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: dmnemaine on March 19, 2010, 11:03:06 PM
^^^It would make too much sense. But, maybe she was busy on Broadway at the time. Who knows, maybe they wanted a whiter cast. I dunno, I am still flumoxed over Ann Margaret being in the film.

Maybe their reason was out to lunch? &)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 20, 2010, 08:30:04 AM


Ann Margaret couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. What were they thinking when they cast her?

pfffffft.

(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj208/sassydoll7/Ann-Margaret-standing.jpg)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Tealeaf on March 20, 2010, 02:29:10 PM
I have a question. Christians maintain the belief that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was the key to God's forgiveness of human sin and salvation. Why, exactly, did these events have to occur in order for God to forgive humans of anything? What is the relevance of:
a) the life, death, and resurrection of a divine entity manifested in the flesh (Jesus), to

b) A God's his attitude towards human sin.

'Cause honestly, I see absolutely no causal relevance of a) to b). If God wanted to forgive humans, why didn't he just do it, why were the events described in a) a prerequisite to forgiveness?
Sorry I missed your post before.

It's a good question. You might be surprised at the answer.

The Bible says that the cross was a demonstration(of God's righteousness). He was revealing the situation as it truly was since long before the crucifixion. God had been forgiving peoples sins and treating them graciously for all time, and had created the world well aware of the suffering that would be caused by his creatures acting disobediently. Since God knows all things, He is intimately aware of the suffering of every man woman and child who ever came into existence. So when Jesus went to the cross, it was to SHOW people the character of God. It was to REVEAL that God was humble and lowly in heart, and that He cared for us and has always cared for us. It was to PROVE that God had not abandoned His people, or failed in His promise.

The revelation of Jesus is the model for God's plan, except that we are all heirs by grace, and Jesus displayed God's perfect righteousness in the flesh by works. So Jesus died in the flesh and was raised again, I die to the flesh and am raised again. As Jesus was glorified and lives eternally I will be glorified and live eternally.

I wish I had seen this before, it was a pleasure to reply.

Utterly astonishing wilful stupidity here. Utterly utterly baffling.

How the hell is it supposed to mean anything, that god makes up a promise to HIS creations, then does what he says he will.... But then you are still screwed because if you don't acknolwedge god playing with Tonka trucks in the sandbox, you burn in his concieved hell that he always knew you would because he sees all....????

Can you not see how utterly nonsensical the Jesus 'sacrifice' thing is????
 
Then you go and twist it around into this whole drawn out 'revealing' crap display. Bullshit.

Acknowledge the siutation as it is. And don't make up stuff.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Jim on March 20, 2010, 02:54:37 PM
Hi Tealeaf.  Mr Fool is gone.  Banished to the wastelands of theological idiocy.

Now, please be civilized and get out of the way of that lovely Ann Margaret pic.  Thank you.

;)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: voodoo child on March 20, 2010, 02:59:22 PM
Quote
What were they thinking when they cast her?

nice curves?  ;D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: bertatberts on March 20, 2010, 03:32:38 PM
Quote
What were they thinking when they cast her?

nice curves?  ;D
Yes Fool did have quite a few, but I wouldn't say they were nice, more like irritatingly ignorant.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Jim on March 20, 2010, 03:37:00 PM
Heh.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 20, 2010, 06:38:36 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj208/sassydoll7/Ann-Margaret-standing.jpg)

Ok, I can understand this arguement works from the perspective of someone who is attracted to women. But, it does nothing for me. She is pretty, big whoop. Seriously, the movie would have been much better if they cast someone not as pretty, but who could actually sing. Or they could have done some magic with lip syncing. That voice should have never been committed to a recording.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 20, 2010, 06:41:22 PM

Ok, I can understand this arguement works from the perspective of someone who is attracted to women. But, it does nothing for me. She is pretty, big whoop. Seriously, the movie would have been much better if they cast someone not as pretty, but who could actually sing. Or they could have done some magic with lip syncing. That voice should have never been committed to a recording.


I don't know how old you are or what gender, or what gender preference, but Ann-Margaret was a woman's woman, too. Women wanted to be like her. She exuded sexuality, even with her singing, which, if I recall, was actually considered "sultry"??? whatever, she was a hugely loved and admired sex symbol and, well, sex symbols sell.

Plus she probably gave some time on the casting couch, which was pretty durn common back then. Probably still is, for all I know!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 20, 2010, 07:02:40 PM
^^^Ok, now I get it. I am a tomboyish female, but I like well big burly guys. I never tried to be um sultry. And she is a bit before my time. My friends wanted to be like Farrah Fawcett. I thought they were nuts. I wanted to be like Grizzly Adams, minus the beard.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Bad Pear on March 20, 2010, 07:08:16 PM
I wanted to be like Grizzly Adams, minus the beard.

What's wrong with beards?  :shrug
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on March 20, 2010, 07:11:51 PM
I wanted to be like Grizzly Adams, minus the beard.

What's wrong with beards?  :shrug

They are lovely on men. Even on some women, if you are into that kind of thing  ;D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Azdgari on March 20, 2010, 07:37:25 PM
Perhaps this thread should be moved to Chatter?
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: SherB on March 20, 2010, 08:29:19 PM
Quote
It's a good question. You might be surprised at the answer.

The Bible says that the cross was a demonstration(of God's righteousness). He was revealing the situation as it truly was since long before the crucifixion. God had been forgiving peoples sins and treating them graciously for all time, and had created the world well aware of the suffering that would be caused by his creatures acting disobediently. Since God knows all things, He is intimately aware of the suffering of every man woman and child who ever came into existence. So when Jesus went to the cross, it was to SHOW people the character of God. It was to REVEAL that God was humble and lowly in heart, and that He cared for us and has always cared for us. It was to PROVE that God had not abandoned His people, or failed in His promise.

Total crock, although I realize it is the accepted answer among christians, even though it makes absolutely zero sense. If god wanted to forgive people, he didn't have to invent some bizarre ritual involving 'his son,' another inane concept, since god is supposed to be beyond people and probably doesn't even have any genitals, so the concept of 'his son' could only be metaphorical anyway. Even accepting that, the ritual of having him allow himself to be crucified, a form of execution reserved for the worst of the worst criminals, to take on everyone's sins, still makes no sense. It's god that decided people were sinners and needed forgiveness in the first place. If he decided they should be forgiven, all he had to do was give a little speech about it and--zap--done.

The one thing about it that makes any sense at all is the resurrection. That shows, at least according to religious leaders, that christians don't stay dead. So the sheeple would be happy to A, go willingly to death in support of the church, and B, since defeating death was up to the will of jesus, at least as channeled by religious leaders, keep the followers in line and doing as told. Stray from the path and be doomed---obey without question and be saved. Shit, it's still used exactly in that way, even though it's 2000 years later and we're supposed to know way more about the universe than we did back then.

The reason it had to be a human sacrifice is because that's what the primitive tribes of the day understood. Blood sacrifice goes back to cave days. If you wanted to appease the gods you killed something and gave it to them. Some gods seemed to prefer virgins tossed into volcanoes, other liked theirs tied to an altar and their hearts cut out and eaten. The god of the jews, at least according to what we have written down from the time, dug animals, mostly sheep and goats, as his sacrifices, for whatever reason. The important part was that if you wanted some big juju with your local deity, you killed something or someone for him.

Whoever wanted to be in charge of this particular population figured this out, and so the idea of the human sacrifice that would be bigger and better than any sacrifice before was born. I say the leaders because, while christians still believe the instructions were coming from god, since I don't believe in jesus or god, but am pretty sure that then, as now, there were the sheeple-herders and the sheeple. To be in the know and gain power over the great unwashed, they had to figure out what would impress them most. A super-duper sacrifice that combined both human and deity was the ticket. And that's what they got. A ringside seat to the sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

This is all assuming that the crucifixion ever happened, which it may or may not have. I'm inclined to accept that at least part of the new testament story involves things that really happened, but that it was the leaders posturing to impress the dummies. If true, it seems to have worked. Not only do millions of people believe that the crucifixion and resurrection actually happened, but they have built an entire mythology based on those events with it's own back story, and the myth survives today, when science really should have taught people better. Actually, it really gives credit to the manipulation and control a bunch of dumb desert sheepherders came up with. Kudos, bible patriarchs---excellent story!

That's my take on the crucifixion, for whatever it's worth.   ---SherB
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on March 21, 2010, 01:07:05 PM
Perhaps this thread should be moved to Chatter?
This thread should just be locked.  No, trashed.  Yeah trashed would be better so that the mug doesn't keep his proselytising thread on the site.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Al Stefanelli on March 21, 2010, 01:10:58 PM
You had me at:
Total crock
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Operator_011 on March 21, 2010, 01:54:37 PM
This thread's now in the bottomless pit to die its final death.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 21, 2010, 04:17:57 PM
*rolls boulder over the tomb*

That should do it.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 22, 2010, 11:10:37 AM
Ann Margaret couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. What were they thinking when they cast her?

I don't know, I liked her version of "Bye Bye Birdie" (the song), and I enjoyed her in "Newsies". Of course she was old at that point, and had more experience.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Nam on March 22, 2010, 11:13:29 AM
Ok, I can understand this arguement works from the perspective of someone who is attracted to women. But, it does nothing for me. She is pretty, big whoop. Seriously, the movie would have been much better if they cast someone not as pretty, but who could actually sing. Or they could have done some magic with lip syncing. That voice should have never been committed to a recording.

Actually, I found most of the singing in the film to be bland.  As if they were going for something more plain than over-the-top.

-Nam
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: natlegend on March 27, 2010, 06:36:53 AM
*rolls boulder over the tomb*

That should do it.

*jumps on boulder to make sure it's secure*
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Gimpy on March 27, 2010, 11:04:35 PM
*rolls boulder over the tomb*

That should do it.

*jumps on boulder to make sure it's secure*

**grabs a bucket of red paint and paints the following on the boulder:

(http://www.polepositionmarketing.com/emp/blog-images/return-to-sender.jpg)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: rlyte on May 04, 2010, 07:31:27 PM
Please ask, I love Jesus and I love talking about Him.

Jesus is the way the truth and the life, may jesus bless you my brother!!
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Grogan on May 04, 2010, 08:15:11 PM
Jesus is the way the truth and the life, may jesus bless you my brother!!

Remember when Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to save all of us from himself? That was really swell.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ally16 on May 12, 2010, 10:14:35 PM
Show me a verse from the bible where Jesus himself claims to be God.  Not "Son Of God" or "Messiah" ... God.  Not once does Jesus make the claim for himself.  
The question posed regarded whether Jesus claimed to be divine. Jesus made many claims about His divinity.

You are asking me to show Jesus making the claim to be God.

What is God?
The trinity consists of the Holy spirit,God, and Jesus. The are all one.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: SherB on May 13, 2010, 12:35:24 AM
Jesus is the way the truth and the life, may jesus bless you my brother!!

Remember when Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to save all of us from himself? That was really swell.

 ;D
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: velkyn on May 13, 2010, 11:14:39 AM
The trinity consists of the Holy spirit,God, and Jesus. The are all one.

Quote
“Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost the third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. . . .

“So, it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God, and that these three Gods make one God.

“According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three times one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction, if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar, if we add two to one, we have but one. . . .

“Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899), "The Trinity" (from "The Foundations of Faith," The Works of Ingersoll). The Trinity" has been set to music by Dan Barker ("Friendly Neighborhood Atheist" CD).
thanks to today's FFRF daily email. 
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Jim on May 13, 2010, 11:35:42 AM
I wonder what the Holy Sprit's job is supposed to be?  God is the insane "kill 'em all!" head of house, Jesus is the hippie do-good idiot child who got killed.  The Holy Spirit... flies around like a bird?

Long ago in Sunday school, that was never properly answered for me.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on May 13, 2010, 12:17:32 PM
I wonder what the Holy Sprit's job is supposed to be? 
The convictor, the messenger, the... the... um...  I'm out. :shrug
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: kin hell on May 13, 2010, 07:38:46 PM
I wonder what the Holy Sprit's job is supposed to be? 
The convictor, the messenger, the... the... um...  I'm out. :shrug

jesus the carpenter's spirit level

very handy when building a religion
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Agga on May 13, 2010, 07:40:03 PM
^^ He he.. on form again, I see. ;)
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 22, 2010, 10:43:10 AM
Fool: A person who hears claims from people has written the bible.

Me: So if i heard about some claim that there is a pink cat who speaks all languages, does that make it any less true than your Bible?

Fool: I would kill my wife and kids if God commands me to.

Me: That line right there is precisely why i don't want to marry any theists like yourselves. Please go to the psychiatric ward and stay there.

Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: SherB on May 22, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
I wonder what the Holy Sprit's job is supposed to be?  God is the insane "kill 'em all!" head of house, Jesus is the hippie do-good idiot child who got killed.  The Holy Spirit... flies around like a bird?

Long ago in Sunday school, that was never properly answered for me.

I learned from watching Mr. Diety videos. Not only are they entertaining, now I even know what everyone in the Trinity looks like, and it's just as I imagined. Seriously, watch the videos, they're killer. And the Holy Spirit is Larry, who I think tries to be god's conscience.  As in the bible, though, god ain't listening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII6-IyaT3o
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: ibelieveinGod on October 09, 2010, 06:11:20 PM
Yes.

He clearly believed himself to be the Son of God, the promised Messiah, pre existing the worlds, worthy of worship, sinless, to be glorified eternally.
Show me a verse from the bible where Jesus himself claims to be God.  Not "Son Of God" or "Messiah" ... God.  Not once does Jesus make the claim for himself.  
He never comes out and says it but he implies it several times in the bible, none more so when he is in the temple reading Isaiah. Which is a prophecy about himself coming to fulfill the law with is death
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Emily on October 09, 2010, 06:15:50 PM
Just an FYI, IbelieveinGod, this thread has been long dead and dmn hasn't longed in in a while. It's bad form to discuss something from March, and it's against the forum rules, also.
Title: Re: If you have a question about Jesus
Post by: Operator_011 on October 09, 2010, 07:15:43 PM
Just when I though we'd seen the last of this train-wreck of a thread..

It's now locked, forever to die and leave us in peace.