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Main Discussion Zone => Religion & Society => Topic started by: jedweber on February 04, 2010, 12:43:55 PM

Title: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: jedweber on February 04, 2010, 12:43:55 PM
A new poll of rank-and-file, self-identified Republican voters has caused a stir by finding that large percentages of them hold various extreme views, including conspiracy theories about President Obama, which are being popularized through the Tea Party movement:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/2/2/832988/-The-2010-Comprehensive-Daily-Kos-Research-2000-Poll-of-Self-Identified-Republicans

(http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/NCrissieB/kos_poll_table.gif)

Less attention has been paid to other questions in the survey which show the movement is essentially religious in nature and arises out of American fundamentalist evangelicism. For example:

Quote
QUESTION: Should public school students be taught that the book of Genesis in the Bible explains how God created the world? YES 77%; NO 15%; NOT SURE 8%.

QUESTION: Do you believe that the only way for an individual to go to heaven is though Jesus Christ, or can one make it to heaven through another faith? CHRIST 67%; OTHER 15%; NOT SURE 18%.

Here's an article which looks at the dire implications of a mass political movement founded in fundamentalist and prosperity gospel theology taking over one of our major political parties:

Quote
Morning Feature: Tea Party GOP - A Religious Movement
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/2/4/833716/-Morning-Feature:-Tea-Party-GOPA-Religious-Movement




Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Nick on February 04, 2010, 01:08:54 PM
All I can say is it's about time someone takes this country by the horns and gets us back in God's good graces.  Teabaggers will save us and become one the the great movements of this country.  Sarah Palin, who sacrificed so much to give herself to this country, will end up leading this movement.  I hope there is room on Mt. Rushmore for her bust at some point.  Every now and then, especially in times of great trouble for this country, a strong leader will come to the surface.  Sarah is that leader.  Thank you Republicans for standing strong in doing nothing so we can get back to sanity.  God bless this country.  We are the twinkle in God's eye.  Never forget that.


(Is there anyway I can become a Canadian citizen?)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: jedweber on February 04, 2010, 01:34:09 PM
Sarah Palin's just a symptom, though. If she were out of the equation, the movement would just coalesce around somebody else, like Huckabee (who won a lot of primaries and finished 2nd in '08.) Or the "mainstream" candidates like Romney and Gingrich will kowtow to them to get their votes. These people aren't going away, and it's hard to see how they can be reasoned with, or how sane, rational people could govern alongside them...
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: velkyn on February 04, 2010, 02:09:53 PM
I think the best thing right now is the division that these idiots have going on.  Who is the most bestest Christianest patrioticest person of all and they're all fighting over it. 

It's when they have one leader that is competent that they become very very dangerous and that Russian who predicted the US would balkanize might be right after all. 
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Frank on February 04, 2010, 02:14:30 PM
Are all Americans nuts? Yes 99%  Probably 1%.

You've only just figured this out. If you lay down with dogs you get fleas. They've been milking fundies, and assorted rightwing crackpots, gun nuts, "sportsmen" AKA fat fuckers who like to shoot defenseless herbivores, for votes for years. Eventually even people as dumb as they are will want something in return. That "something" is a say in policy.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 04, 2010, 02:27:39 PM
Why link this to the Tea Party Movement?  The TPM is a non-partisan grass-roots movement protesting big government, waste and taxation.   That's why the largest protests were on April 15.  It has nothing to do with religion, birth conspiracies, gay marriage or anything else.  The Republican administration of the last 8 years was as wasteful as any Democrats could be.  I know Democrats and independents who participate.

Because economic frugality is is an issue more often associated with conservatives than with liberals, you're going to find more Republicans at tea parties, and of course, a good number of them are delusional religious wingnuts.   Fiscal conservatives who feel the GOP has become infested with theocrats are leaving the party like rats from a sinking ship. I would have been one of them, if I hadn't jumped ship years ago.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Nick on February 04, 2010, 02:47:50 PM
You don't think the Republicans are behind the TPM?  You can't be that gullible.  They made most of the signs, provided the busses for the trips, even food etc.  That is why FOX has had a cob up their rear for them all this time.  Wake up and smell the nutters.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Frank on February 04, 2010, 02:52:22 PM
Why link this to the Tea Party Movement?  The TPM is a non-partisan grass-roots movement protesting big government, waste and taxation.  

What colour is the sky in your world?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: velkyn on February 04, 2010, 02:53:21 PM
I'm sorry, xphobe, but really, are you serious? Where are these supposed coherent TPM people then?  I've not seen a one.  I'm going to guess that there will be accusations that the "media" is somehow to blame for these people never appearing.  

I consider myself a fiscal conservative person too and I would never associate myself with the teabaggers.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 04, 2010, 03:13:30 PM
You don't think the Republicans are behind the TPM?  You can't be that gullible.  They made most of the signs, provided the busses for the trips, even food etc.

Got a link?

I know a number of people who have attended tea parties in my area.  They all made their own signs and provided their own transportation.  I suppose they could be the exception to the rule, but I can only go by what I know...
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: velkyn on February 04, 2010, 03:33:50 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/03/tea.party/

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/legendary_gop_bamboozler_hitches_wagon_to_tea_part.php

Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 04, 2010, 04:33:01 PM
Non-partisan?  Grass roots?  WTF?  Since when has Fox "news" supported anything non-partisan?  

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/09/lobbyists-planning-teaparties/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/09/lobbyists-planning-teaparties/)
http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2009/12/pr20091208 (http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2009/12/pr20091208)
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/07/koch-swiftboat-science/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/07/koch-swiftboat-science/)
http://mediamattersaction.org/transparency/ (http://mediamattersaction.org/transparency/)

It is a tiny group of unbelievably wealthy families who want the government to serve them.  They are trying to become a permanent aristocracy.  This is one reason why I think the estate tax is necessary.

ed - spelling
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 04, 2010, 05:17:06 PM
Sounds to me like they're jumping on the bandwagon because it suits their own greedy purposes.  The movement itself predates their involvement.

This is not a unique phenomenon - some student demonstrations in the 60s were co-opted by organized communist agitators, but it doesn't mean that the students didn't originally have good motives.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: desmodia on February 04, 2010, 06:40:57 PM
Those poll results are sad, frightening, and enraging. i have been struggling with the feeling that the country's grip on reality has been slipping over the last decade into new, unknown territory.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 04, 2010, 07:28:09 PM
xphobe, surely you've realized that while this forum is about in rational and coherent thought when it comes to religion, there are members on here who are no better than the theists when it comes to politics!  ;)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 04, 2010, 09:03:54 PM
Sounds to me like they're jumping on the bandwagon because it suits their own greedy purposes. 

of course.


The movement itself predates their involvement.

I'm willing to believe you.  However, to quote a friend of mine...
Got a link?


This is not a unique phenomenon - some student demonstrations in the 60s were co-opted by organized communist agitators, but it doesn't mean that the students didn't originally have good motives.

This is true.  I am sure that the members of what is the current tea-bagger movement has good intentions from their horribly misguided point of view. And perhaps like the hippies, their original movement has been completely co-opted and does not resemble what it was at the beginning.  But that was not what you said.

Why link this to the Tea Party Movement? The TPM is a non-partisan grass-roots movement protesting big government, waste and taxation.   That's why the largest protests were on April 15. It has nothing to do with religion, birth conspiracies, gay marriage or anything else. The Republican administration of the last 8 years was as wasteful as any Democrats could be.  I know Democrats and independents who participate.

Bold mine.  The links I provided showed the people who funded them.  They are not grassroots though their financiers would like it to appear that way.   They are now all those things you say they are not. 

xphobe, surely you've realized that while this forum is about in rational and coherent thought when it comes to religion, there are members on here who are no better than the theists when it comes to politics!  ;)

Yeah, well, so far the only one side has provided evidence. So it looks like you are calling xphobe a theist.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on February 04, 2010, 11:35:43 PM
I don't care who is right or wrong about the teabaggers. Hash it out, whatever. All it this means to me is I will probably vote for Obama, even though I don't like him. I would go that far to keep a teabagger out of the White House.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 04, 2010, 11:46:37 PM
I know quite a few teabaggers and they are all fundies that would much prefer a Christian theocratic dictatorship. They will talk about fiscal conservatism, big government and so on, but to them these things are only excuses to bitch about the Democrats and Obama.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Count Iblis on February 04, 2010, 11:58:27 PM
I see this as a good thing. The more radical the Repuglicans become the more they're going to alienate everyone who's not radical. This is going to create a great opportunity for a new political party to fill the niche created by this dying dinosaur. Only one political party currently in existence is sufficiently different from the Demoncrats (and isn't filled with religious fanatics) to fill that niche, the Libertarian Party.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 05, 2010, 12:06:42 AM
Count, when you use words like "Repuglicans" and "Demoncrats" it really detracts from the points you are trying to make. IMO.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on February 05, 2010, 12:13:47 AM
I see this as a good thing. The more radical the Repuglicans become the more they're going to alienate everyone who's not radical. This is going to create a great opportunity for a new political party to fill the niche created by this dying dinosaur. Only one political party currently in existence is sufficiently different from the Demoncrats (and isn't filled with religious fanatics) to fill that niche, the Libertarian Party.

IMO, you are right in that the teabaggers will alienate Republicans that are not radicals. It will alienate Conservatives who don't consider themselves Republicans, but usually vote that way. It will alienate moderate Democrates from working with Republicans to get things done(as it will look like they are supporting the nutters). But, you are wrong in that this will help the Libertarians except in a very small way. What will happen is moderate Republicans and Conservatives will hold their nose and vote for Democrats. A very small percent will join the Libertarian party, it might be just enough to get them federal funding though, so it will be somewhat helpful.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Nick on February 05, 2010, 09:02:39 AM
I'm afraid you will have "normal rational thinkers" drop out of politics and give up on voting.  That is how the nutters take control.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Frank on February 05, 2010, 02:15:53 PM
I see this as a good thing. The more radical the Repuglicans become the more they're going to alienate everyone who's not radical. This is going to create a great opportunity for a new political party to fill the niche created by this dying dinosaur.

Yeah it's just what America needs. Another right of Mussolini political party. Apparently two just isn't enough.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Backspace on February 05, 2010, 02:29:12 PM
"Bad politicians are elected into office by good people who don't vote."  I don't recall who that line is attributed to.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: nogodsforme on February 05, 2010, 02:33:23 PM
Yes, the tea party people are just plain folks who want to improve the government. That's why Sarah Palin is charging $100,000 to speak at the rally. And all kinds of companies are planning to get rich selling pro-tea party $hit. Because that's what plain folks do.  :-\
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 05, 2010, 02:54:28 PM
There really is no such thing as grassroots anymore since everyone is looking to make a fast buck.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Count Iblis on February 05, 2010, 07:40:13 PM
Count, when you use words like "Repuglicans" and "Demoncrats" it really detracts from the points you are trying to make. IMO.

 :shrug It emphasizes the extreme dislike I have for both parties.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Count Iblis on February 05, 2010, 07:44:11 PM
IMO, you are right in that the teabaggers will alienate Republicans that are not radicals. It will alienate Conservatives who don't consider themselves Republicans, but usually vote that way. It will alienate moderate Democrates from working with Republicans to get things done(as it will look like they are supporting the nutters). But, you are wrong in that this will help the Libertarians except in a very small way. What will happen is moderate Republicans and Conservatives will hold their nose and vote for Democrats. A very small percent will join the Libertarian party, it might be just enough to get them federal funding though, so it will be somewhat helpful.

The Libertarians won't accept federal funding because doing so would be against Libertarian principles. Unless the Demoncrats move towards the right (which I can't see happening since it would alienate their Liberal base) I don't see how Conservatives will support them.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Count Iblis on February 05, 2010, 07:46:36 PM
Yeah it's just what America needs. Another right of Mussolini political party. Apparently two just isn't enough.

Yeah, those fascist Libertarians. Who do they think they are supporting such things as gay marriage, gun rights, private property rights, repeal of corporate personhood, smaller government, freedom of religion, etc.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 06, 2010, 12:59:01 AM
Count, when you use words like "Repuglicans" and "Demoncrats" it really detracts from the points you are trying to make. IMO.

 :shrug It emphasizes the extreme dislike I have for both parties.

Then you must care more about expressing your "extreme dislike" than about making points, because as soon as I see it I am reminded of all the rotten arguments I've seen on the internet where people do that thinking it looks clever or something. It doesn't. It looks childish.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 06, 2010, 09:25:05 AM
^^ I have on occasion used the terms "Republicrat" and "Demopublican" to emphasize that there's really not much difference between the two, but usually I refer to them collectively as "Statists" because that's what they're both really about - concentrating ever more power in the State.  They all want to control you, they just pick different issues to exercise that control.


p.s. I haven't forgotten about the "which came first" debate.  I still plan on researching it when I get time, but I'm in no hurry.  It's going to take some work.  I do remember that early on when the first TPM activities hit the media, the right-wing radio talk show personalities weren't taking them seriously.

Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 06, 2010, 10:18:02 AM
I think what is needed is limits that set one term for the House and Senate members and remove all the recesses. You get off for holidays, but that's it. Should be more than enough time to learn the ropes and do something about real issues. I'd be okay with leaving the two term Presidential limit.

Or you could make me Supreme Chancellor of the U.S...  ;)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 06, 2010, 10:37:30 AM
p.s. I haven't forgotten about the "which came first" debate.  I still plan on researching it when I get time, but I'm in no hurry.  It's going to take some work.  I do remember that early on when the first TPM activities hit the media, the right-wing radio talk show personalities weren't taking them seriously.

I have no idea what you are referring to.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Nick on February 06, 2010, 10:52:47 AM
I think what is needed is limits that set one term for the House and Senate members and remove all the recesses. You get off for holidays, but that's it. Should be more than enough time to learn the ropes and do something about real issues. I'd be okay with leaving the two term Presidential limit.

Or you could make me Supreme Chancellor of the U.S...  ;)
How about having the presidency a one 6 yr term.  You would not have to mess with reelection BS.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Kais on February 06, 2010, 12:24:19 PM
This on the article:

Quote
The problem is not capitalism; that's the natural economic order created by God.
Really? What about Jesus saying give all your stuff to the poor? What about 'it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle'?

Another example of fundies obeying the Bible when it suits them.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Count Iblis on February 06, 2010, 01:44:10 PM
Then you must care more about expressing your "extreme dislike" than about making points, because as soon as I see it I am reminded of all the rotten arguments I've seen on the internet where people do that thinking it looks clever or something. It doesn't. It looks childish.

To each his own.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 06, 2010, 03:34:28 PM
"Bad politicians are elected into office by good people who don't vote."  I don't recall who that line is attributed to.

I think that's absolutely true. And since the only people making noise in this country any more are the teabaggers and fundies, just voting is not going to be enough. We need to get out there and let it be knnown that there are people other than fat rich white men who work for Faux news and fundie former governnors who don't believe in contraception but quit their terms midway through because of the ethics investigations against them.

What scares me more than anything else--and I'm not even really an atheist, just not a Christian---is that by the time of the next election, the only people who are going to be in the political arena are going to be those crazies. Moderate republicans have gone the way of the dinosaur, democrats have completely left politics or just figure that they're going to be re-elected without working at it, and I for one do not want to live in the theocracy that will be running this country after the mid-term elections. And remember, it's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes!

Actually, their already running the country through their multi-billion dollar churches and 'family' organizations. But they don't have enough power yet to outlaw not just abortion but contraception, force teaching of the bible in public schools, and silencing anybody who doesn't lick their boots.

I'm not overly fond of the democrats, and think they can't find their asses with a flashlight and two search parties. But I firmly believe that the Democratic party is the only organization that has the power to stand up to the fundies. I'd love to have the Libertarian party get involved, but it's not gonna happen. And any energy expended in a way that doesn't support the dems is going to be that much wasted. Just my 2 cents...

---SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 06, 2010, 08:12:40 PM
I think what is needed is limits that set one term for the House and Senate members and remove all the recesses. You get off for holidays, but that's it. Should be more than enough time to learn the ropes and do something about real issues.

That's probably a good idea, but then they would have to do some real work, so I don't see them going for it.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 06, 2010, 08:13:20 PM
How about having the presidency a one 6 yr term.  You would not have to mess with reelection BS.

I like this idea.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Nick on February 06, 2010, 09:05:27 PM
Hey, it's after 8pm central time.  What are all of you doing on the forum.  Our next president and spiritual leader is talking to the nation on TV from the teabaggers hall.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 06, 2010, 09:48:01 PM
I think what is needed is limits that set one term for the House and Senate members and remove all the recesses. You get off for holidays, but that's it. Should be more than enough time to learn the ropes and do something about real issues.

That's probably a good idea, but then they would have to do some real work, so I don't see them going for it.

I heartily agree! Not only would everyone not spend their entire term figuring out how to get re-elected, but that way if somebody really awful got in, maybe we'd be able to take the country back pretty quickly. But it's not going to happen---they like being fat cats with great health insurance, power power POWER and money coming out the bejesus. Just my 2 cents.

---SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Cynic on February 12, 2010, 10:20:00 AM
Am I the only one unsurprised by this?

You only have to glance at Fox news to see the mindset of the republican party
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 12, 2010, 06:35:44 PM
Hey, it's after 8pm central time.  What are all of you doing on the forum.  Our next president and spiritual leader is talking to the nation on TV from the teabaggers hall.

I just realized something:  Count Iblis is being chided for his use of the fairly silly terms "Repuglican" and "Demoncrat", yet it seems to be acceptable around here to refer to Tea Party activists using a term that specifically refers to a homosexual oral sex act.  Classy.  Should we start calling them Refucklickers and Dildocrats?  I'd be okay with that...
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: velkyn on February 12, 2010, 08:07:53 PM
If I recall correctly, they referred to themselves as teabaggers, until it dawned on them, via comedians, that the term also referred to a homosexual sex act.  I have no problem with Iblis or using teabagger since ridicule is effective and the groups involved certainly don't have my respect. 
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: shnozzola on February 12, 2010, 08:52:45 PM
Let’s say the U.S. needs a new party – the common sense party.  Is the Libertarian party that party?
                                                         http://www.lp.org/issues
               Probably some scary libertarian positions for U.S. citizens-
                             1.  Legalizing drugs
                             2.  Environment – the government is the biggest polluter?
                             3.  No laws concerning obscenity
I didn’t see a strong freedom of religion or no religion statement.
I didn’t see a strong military plan.

Other than that, a strong tea party that actually stood for libertarian freedoms instead of the typical right wing BS is not a bad idea.   Libertarian ideas about taxes, social security, and immigration should appeal to both sides and not the extremes.  It seems if libertarians got a “normal” leader – Ross Perot as a third party candidate was scary.  I can understand the huge following of Ron Paul, but he seemed weak, or tired, or not well enough spoken, or something?  Who started this web site – how old is he?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 12, 2010, 09:35:16 PM
If I recall correctly, they referred to themselves as teabaggers, until it dawned on them, via comedians, that the term also referred to a homosexual sex act.

I'm not quite so sure they did.  They mailed tea bags to Washington in protest, but I can't find any evidence they applied the noun to themselves.   There is a reference to an article on "reteaparty.com" that claims they did, but the site is down and the date of the article (April 1) makes one wonder.

Meanwhile, the mainstream media and in fact President Obama himself have picked up on the word with great glee, and have "cleverly" worked up all sorts of sophomoric double entendres.  High road my ass.

Anyway, it was my recollection that the Tea Parties were originally ridiculed by every mainstream media outlet including the Glenn Becks of the Fox world.  It was only after the story began to show some legs that every right wing fundie jumped on the bandwagon.  Now the movement is in real danger of being co-opted by the theocrats, if it hasn't already.

I really need to do some research to support my assertion I suppose.  It's just not that important to me...
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: velkyn on February 12, 2010, 09:57:06 PM
understood, but april was when the first sending of tea bags appears to have been discussed. 

As for the libertarians, they are far too much like every other party. They want their freedoms but only to the point they want to deny others theirs as soon as they don't agrree.  They are also far too isolationist for my tastes. 



Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 13, 2010, 12:33:21 AM
As for the libertarians, they are far too much like every other party. They want their freedoms but only to the point they want to deny others theirs as soon as they don't agrree.

Really?  What freedoms do libertarians want to deny others?

Quote
They are also far too isolationist for my tastes. 

What are you referring to?  Wars?  What wars would libertarians object to that you are in favor of?

Libertarians believe that the military's only legitimate purpose is actually defending the citizens of the country from attack.  If that means we pull our troops out of Iraq, then I'm all for that, ASAP!   Every day that goes by is another day of wasted blood - both American and Iraqi.

Libertarians believe that peaceful trade and commerce should be free between any two consenting individuals regardless of political borders.  That's the very opposite of isolation.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Levan on February 13, 2010, 12:40:26 AM
I am a supporter of the Libertarian party myself, though I cannot vote yet.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 13, 2010, 01:24:30 AM
understood, but april was when the first sending of tea bags appears to have been discussed. 

As for the libertarians, they are far too much like every other party. They want their freedoms but only to the point they want to deny others theirs as soon as they don't agrree.  They are also far too isolationist for my tastes. 

Actually, I consider myself a libertarian. What liberties do you see them wanting to deny anyone? It's only that no third party has ever seemed to be able to break the stranglehold two big ones have on our country. Perot came closer than anybody else has, but without him, the reform party fell completely apart.

If the tea partiers had their financial ideas they had but without sarah palin and the fundies, I'd consider belonging. And it's too bad that nobody from the libertarian mindset co-opted them before the religious extremists got there. Although I suspect that, since a lot of their platform is really only focused on being homophobic, xenophobia, racist, and sexist, that probably never would have happened. Still, they started out, at least, pretty easy to mold, and early on could probably have been convinced that government should stay out of people's bedrooms and such. Way too late now, though...

Actually it was the fauxers that started the idea that becaue the tea party. Glenn Beck came up with something he called the 9-12 project, so called because he said he 'hates those whining 9-11 families' and wanted to 'get past them.' In my little fundie town they started with 9-12 project rallies that eventually morphed into tea party rallies. So the teabaggers have been in bed with the rabid fauxers from the beginning, although everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten.

I'll hunt down some links, as right now I'm just relying on my memory. However, I work in newspaper advertising, and when we had 9-12 rallies here, the ads were paid for by the local republican machine. Here, I looked it up. http://www.the912project.com/ See how much overlap there is between Glenn Beck's 9-12 project and the teabaggers. Just my 2 cents...   SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 13, 2010, 08:49:49 AM
If I recall correctly, they referred to themselves as teabaggers, until it dawned on them, via comedians, that the term also referred to a homosexual sex act.

I'm not quite so sure they did. 


Documented by the Beast's 50 Most Loathsome Americans 2009 (http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=1645)
Quote
35. Teabaggers

Charges: America’s dumbest and most racist citizens finally found a cause they could all get behind that isn’t pro wrestling or NASCAR. The Lolcats of protest sign grammar, they think scare quotes actually make things scary (e.g. ‘Obama is a “communist”’). They don’t understand that they’re duped showpieces for billionaires who threaten their freedom and prosperity far more than their beloved nemesis, Big Gubmint. And their instant escalation from complacent couch potatoes to rhetorical revolutionaries just happened to coincide with the election of a black Democrat with the middle name Hussein. What are the chances?
Exhibit A: They called it Teabagging first.
Sentence: To star in an extremely patriotic, live ammunition reenactment the Battle of Bunker hill.

Bold mine.  That settles it then.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 13, 2010, 11:45:11 AM
^^ Guess so.  Who can argue with the World's Only Website?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Ananukia on February 13, 2010, 04:14:42 PM
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32299/825644-facepalm_carl_super.jpg)

Xphobe, you seriously can't see through that crap? Even on faux news it's as transparent as saran wrap.

It's nothing new, just the same old shit in a different wrapper.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 13, 2010, 04:44:52 PM
What crap are you referring to?  Tea Party?  meh - as many have already said here, it's too late, they've already been co-opted by the religious fundies.

If you're talking about libertarianism or the Libertarian Party  (http://www.lp.org/) in particular, you may want to do a little research before you dismiss it as crap.  I suspect many people who call themselves Democrats and Republicans are really more aligned with libertarian principles than they know.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Ananukia on February 13, 2010, 04:49:47 PM
What crap are you referring to?  Tea Party?  meh - as many have already said here, it's too late, they've already been co-opted by the religious fundies.

If you're talking about libertarianism or the Libertarian Party  (http://www.lp.org/) in particular, you may want to do a little research before you dismiss it as crap.  I suspect many people who call themselves Democrats and Republicans are really more aligned with libertarian principles than they know.

I was talking about the Teabaggers, and I'm for the Green Party.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 13, 2010, 08:32:36 PM
If you're talking about libertarianism or the Libertarian Party  (http://www.lp.org/) in particular, you may want to do a little research before you dismiss it as crap.  I suspect many people who call themselves Democrats and Republicans are really more aligned with libertarian principles than they know.

It's just another bunch of politicians.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 14, 2010, 06:05:38 AM
It's just another bunch of politicians.

I suppose you're right, in the sense that anyone involved in politics is just another bunch of politicians. 

However, the Libertarian party is unique.  It is the only party that has consistently advocated individual liberty, smaller government and less taxation.  And that's really all they're about.  No religious or socialist agenda, no oppression of gay people or women.  Needless to say, these goals don't make them many friends on either side of the aisle in Congress, because the entrenched parties have too many vested interests.

The LP is where Republicans have gone who are tired of seeing the Republican party overtaken by warmongering theocratic spendthrifts.  And it's where Democrats have gone who believe that individuals should be free to live their own lives and make their own decisions unencumbered by Big Brother and excessive regulations.

Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: jedweber on February 14, 2010, 11:01:47 AM
^ It's too bad that some of the populist anger that the Tea Parties are exploiting wasn't channeled into the Libertarian movement. Instead, the Tea Parties seem to have sucked all the air out of the room for Libertarians and left them just as marginalized as before. The teabaggers might pay lip service to fiscal conservatism and small government, but they've larded the message with all sorts of other baggage - the religious crap, conspiracy theories, racism and xenophobia, right-wing social policies, etc... Their heroes are people like Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and Michelle Bachmann, instead of Ron Paul, Bob Barr or Penn Jillette.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 14, 2010, 05:54:05 PM
I suppose you're right, in the sense that anyone involved in politics is just another bunch of politicians. 

They are politicians in the sense that they can't be trusted any more than the current batch. Sorry, I have an extremely low opinion of politicians and political parties, regardless of what they claim. And from what I can tell the LP is just a bunch of disaffected Republicans.

Here's one for you: What DON'T you like about the LP?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 14, 2010, 07:39:20 PM
Here's one for you: What DON'T you like about the LP?

That they run all the wierdos for public office.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on February 14, 2010, 09:38:04 PM
^^LOL, that's all I got.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 15, 2010, 01:10:35 PM
Even Captain America (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100211/ts_ynews/ynews_ts1129) knows the teabaggers are whackaloons.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 15, 2010, 01:13:34 PM
^ I guess Chris Matthews is in good company since Captain America is a racist too!
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Count Iblis on February 15, 2010, 02:32:59 PM
^ It's too bad that some of the populist anger that the Tea Parties are exploiting wasn't channeled into the Libertarian movement. Instead, the Tea Parties seem to have sucked all the air out of the room for Libertarians and left them just as marginalized as before. The teabaggers might pay lip service to fiscal conservatism and small government, but they've larded the message with all sorts of other baggage - the religious crap, conspiracy theories, racism and xenophobia, right-wing social policies, etc... Their heroes are people like Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and Michelle Bachmann, instead of Ron Paul, Bob Barr or Penn Jillette.

Even though Bob Barr now claims to be a Libertarian, I don't trust him at all. He voted for the Patriot Act and only after voters realized how bad the thing is did he start to oppose it. In the past he's been a major supporter of the War on (Some) Drugs and an opponent to decriminalizing medical marijuana, now he claims to support medical marijuana. He opposed same sex marriage (he wrote the Defense of Marriage Act) and now claims to support it. He supported the war in Iraq and now opposes it. While in Congress he tried to get the military to ban the practice of Wicca. He's also been a long time opponent of abortion.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 15, 2010, 06:27:56 PM
^ I agree.  People can change, but this seemed too much like opportunism since he was shut out of the two major parties.

I agree with SI: why do they always run weirdos?  I had high hopes for Debra Medina (though she's officially a Republican) until her "911-truther" meltdown on Glen Beck.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 16, 2010, 08:04:28 AM
^ I guess Chris Matthews is in good company since Captain America is a racist too!

I have no idea what you are talking about. In what way do you think either are racists?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 16, 2010, 10:10:34 AM
^ I agree.  People can change, but this seemed too much like opportunism since he was shut out of the two major parties.

I agree with SI: why do they always run weirdos?  I had high hopes for Debra Medina (though she's officially a Republican) until her "911-truther" meltdown on Glen Beck.

So, aside from running weirdos, the LP is a model of perfection? lol Ok, I'm convinced. Where do I sign up?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 16, 2010, 10:55:37 AM
^^ Christ Matthews on President Obama and his State of the Union address:

Quote from: http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0110/Matthews_I_forgot_he_was_black_tonight_for_an_hour.html?showall
I was trying to think about who he was tonight. It's interesting: he is post-racial, by all appearances. I forgot he was black tonight for an hour.

And I think the writer's inherit racism, coming out of the mouth of Captain America from that link you presented, speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 16, 2010, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0110/Matthews_I_forgot_he_was_black_tonight_for_an_hour.html?showall
I was trying to think about who he was tonight. It's interesting: he is post-racial, by all appearances. I forgot he was black tonight for an hour.

Ah.  I did read about it but I forgot about that one. 
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 16, 2010, 12:22:01 PM
It's funny.  I did a google image search for "tea party". The first page of images were all something like this:

(http://myapologies.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/aliceteapartysmall-1.png?w=435&h=348)

Very appropos, in my opinion.

Searching for "tea bagger" images was less safe for work, to say the least.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 16, 2010, 12:25:19 PM
^ Yeah, I find it amusing for the people who don't know what the term means and call themselves that with pride and not a trace of irony.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on February 16, 2010, 11:38:29 PM
^^^Perhaps both definitions apply.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 17, 2010, 08:19:00 AM
So, aside from running weirdos, the LP is a model of perfection? lol Ok, I'm convinced. Where do I sign up?

Actually Debra Medina is running on the Republican ticket against two other batsh*t crazy Republicans. But she's generally considered to have libertarian views.

But yes, you're on the right track.  Every group has weirdos.  Look at the atheists on this forum - we've got our share.  To make the LP what you want it to be, and to have sensible people run for office, you have to vote.  Or better yet, join the LP yourself and run for office.

Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 17, 2010, 09:35:36 AM
My point is that while the LP Party has great ideals, they can't get it together with a dynamic candidate who can speak openly and plainly without indulging their off-normal viewpoints.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 17, 2010, 09:44:25 AM
As much as I'm in a favor for a 3rd party, I have to ask whether or not it makes sense.  Not in the sense that everyone here is currently discussing, but statistical, political sense.  I personally believe that a 3rd party doesn't have a chance of winning an election against the reps. and & Dem's just because it's engraved in most Americans to vote for just the two.  What it will do however, is pull votes away from another person who may have gotten elected otherwise, good or bad.  It is because of this scenario that I think it is detrimental to the system.  American mindset doesn't change overnight in the least and therein lies the problem. Unless I'm ignorant and missing something?

I do however, TOTALLY agree that what would be better for America and the American people, would be to lessen the reelection BS.  Whoever stated that flat 6 year term is genius, and I'm sure it's been mentioned before but I really never gave it much thought.  How do we rational thinking people start this "Flat Term" movement!!!?  I'm IN!
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Kais on February 17, 2010, 11:07:25 AM
As much as I'm in a favor for a 3rd party, I have to ask whether or not it makes sense.  Not in the sense that everyone here is currently discussing, but statistical, political sense.  I personally believe that a 3rd party doesn't have a chance of winning an election against the reps. and & Dem's just because it's engraved in most Americans to vote for just the two.  What it will do however, is pull votes away from another person who may have gotten elected otherwise, good or bad.  It is because of this scenario that I think it is detrimental to the system.  American mindset doesn't change overnight in the least and therein lies the problem. Unless I'm ignorant and missing something?

I do however, TOTALLY agree that what would be better for America and the American people, would be to lessen the reelection BS.  Whoever stated that flat 6 year term is genius, and I'm sure it's been mentioned before but I really never gave it much thought.  How do we rational thinking people start this "Flat Term" movement!!!?  I'm IN!

Can someone please explain to me how Congress and Senate are elected in the US?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 17, 2010, 11:11:29 AM
As much as I'm in a favor for a 3rd party, I have to ask whether or not it makes sense.  Not in the sense that everyone here is currently discussing, but statistical, political sense.  I personally believe that a 3rd party doesn't have a chance of winning an election against the reps. and & Dem's just because it's engraved in most Americans to vote for just the two.  What it will do however, is pull votes away from another person who may have gotten elected otherwise, good or bad.  It is because of this scenario that I think it is detrimental to the system.  American mindset doesn't change overnight in the least and therein lies the problem. Unless I'm ignorant and missing something?

The American voting system leaves much to be desired, and a discussion of its methodology, faults and alternatives would be lengthy, outside the scope of this thread, and only marginally interesting to members from other countries.

But if you are a condemned prisoner, and you have a 50% chance of being executed by the electric chair, a 45% chance of lethal injection, and only a 5% chance of escaping, do you vote for the electric chair because it's the most likely outcome?  Or do you vote for lethal injection because it's a tad more in line with your idea of a humane death?

I don't view voting as some kind of competition or test where I have to strategize around what I think might be the most popular answer.  I don't care who everyone else votes for.  I vote for the candidate I feel best meets my criteria.  Sometimes I choose not to vote for anyone, and if that's not done out of ignorance but in a fully informed way it can be a valid choice.  Regardless, I can't be held responsible for poor decisions other people make.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 17, 2010, 12:00:31 PM
So, aside from running weirdos, the LP is a model of perfection? lol Ok, I'm convinced. Where do I sign up?

But yes, you're on the right track.  Every group has weirdos.  Look at the atheists on this forum - we've got our share.  To make the LP what you want it to be, and to have sensible people run for office, you have to vote.  Or better yet, join the LP yourself and run for office.

Actually the track that I was on was to see if you can show that you or the other LP supporters here have critically examined your party and can find some faults. At this point, I don't think so, if all you can come up with is to say that you run weirdos for office. No single party supports all my views perfectly.

There are some things I like about the LP and some things I don't and a few of the things in the "don't like" category are show stoppers for me.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 17, 2010, 12:35:55 PM
There are some things I like about the LP and some things I don't and a few of the things in the "don't like" category are show stoppers for me.

Such as?

"Smaller Government.  Lower Taxes.  More Freedom."

What's not to like?

http://www.lp.org/platform (http://www.lp.org/platform)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 17, 2010, 01:08:20 PM
What's not to like?

We'll be getting pretty far off topic debating the pros and cons of the LP.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 17, 2010, 01:16:18 PM
Quote
But if you are a condemned prisoner, and you have a 50% chance of being executed by the electric chair, a 45% chance of lethal injection, and only a 5% chance of escaping, do you vote for the electric chair because it's the most likely outcome?  Or do you vote for lethal injection because it's a tad more in line with your idea of a humane death?

This is point... it doesn't matter the circumstances surrounding the vote if it doesn't matter.  The 5% isn't doing anything, when the majority still just see A and B, and disregard C.  I'm not saying it's right for the long term goals.  But it's an impossibility in the short term and 'could' cause a canidate to loose who should have probably won.

Your scenario is much like the choice between 2 evils.  And that's why many people don't even vote at all.  Because they wouldn't vote for either A or B.  They want C but C will never win any time soon...

I never said it wasn't depressing.

P.S. I would vote for the lethal injection myself... wouldn't you?  It's a much more 'peaceful' way to go.  Especially if there were no escape!
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 17, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
P.S. I would vote for the lethal injection myself... wouldn't you?  It's a much more 'peaceful' way to go.  Especially if there were no escape!

Ah but in my scenario there is a possibility of escape.  Hell no I wouldn't vote for lethal injection, as long as there is a chance of escape.   

And I wouldn't vote for a Nazi if there was any other candidate running... or even if there was no other candidate running.  Wrong is wrong.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 17, 2010, 02:13:43 PM
Quote
And I wouldn't vote for a Nazi if there was any other candidate running... or even if there was no other candidate running.  Wrong is wrong.

Your really going to the extreme in both scenarios to prove a point. But that's just it, in real life there is no escape from either party.  Even if their both Nazi's.

But you do prove 1 BIG scenario, maybe more of us need to start planning the escape rather than not voting at all.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 17, 2010, 02:16:22 PM
^ and in that case I won't vote for either one.

Good thing there are occasionally non-nutty third-party candidates that I can consider.  But when there aren't, I won't vote.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 17, 2010, 02:22:35 PM
Quote
Good thing there are occasionally non-nutty third-party candidates that I can consider.  But when there aren't, I won't vote.

I guess I really can't say I disagree with this point.  But don't you truely believe in the lesser of the two evils as many people put it?  I realize your previous analogies, but lets be real, someone from the only 2 parties will inevitably be voted in.  And why would you potentially just let the 'most' evil one be voted in knowing how the system works?

I guess this is where my athesist thinking comes into play.  I want to believe if I vote for the better 3rd party canidate that I am doing America and myself a favor.  But the rational reality is I just possibly hurt the realistic election of the lesser evil.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 17, 2010, 02:46:42 PM
Agamemnon is right.  We're getting off-topic.

Re the OP, I think "becoming" is a weak word.  The GOP has been a fundie religious movement since at least 1980 when Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority helped Reagan get elected.  It's only half a joke that GOP stands for God's Own Party.

In the fundie religious sense, the Democratic party is the lesser of two evils.  But in other ways they are the greater of two evils, which are also "show stoppers" for me.  When you vote, you take into consideration all the evils.  If I can't find a party without show-stoppers, I won't vote.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 24, 2010, 03:34:27 AM
Here is one of the best articles I've read about the fundamentalist christian/republican/tea party coalition---or conspiracy, whatever you want to call it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/feb/23/republicans-religion-secular-america It's written by a UK newspaper, and when these people get into power, which may very well happen in 2010 if the rest of us don't start speaking up, the only place we'll be able to get real news will be from the BBC, etc. Until, of course, they find a way to block their internet sites. Or hell, just declare computers tools of the debel and sent the jack-booted thugs to your and my houses to take them away...

Speaking of conspiracies, and I have to admit I am a little bit of a conspiracy theorist, I've had a persistent thought that I wonder if anybody else has thought of. Maybe I'm crazy---OK, yes I really am crazy, but this is a serious though. You notice how many senators and congressmen are quitting right now? Pretty much every one has used the old 'spending more time with my family' excuse, which usually means someone's been sacked, but I don't think that's what's at work here. They've all been democrats who were seen to be some of the few that could dependably hold on to their seat in congress no matter what the fundies threw at them.

People in the government almost never quit, as long as they still think they can get elected. It's just too cushy a deal. This is more than one or two people, I think the latest count is at least 4 and still climbing. So why? And why only democrats who could be expected to beat any republicans who ran against them? No Republicans are quitting, no dems who are probably going to lose this upcoming election, only ones who could stand in the way of the fundies getting into power. So my question is, is there something behind these democrats quitting that we're not seeing?

I'm assuming for this post that republicans/teabaggers/fundamentalist christians are terms that can be used interchangeably, and that the eventual goal is for the repubs to get in power and bring in this theocracy. And if anyone is taking bets, I'll give you any kind of odds that if they get the power, this country will become a theocracy with fundamentalist christian rules and dogma determining all the laws.

Here are some of the ways I see it could be done really easily. If these people are churchers themselves, maybe their preacher or priest could take them aside and tell them that their eternal soul was in danger if they didn't get out of the way. Another would be that someone could have dirt on them. I'm sure there are people in the government that have dirt of some kind on everyone in power. Just because J. Edgar's not around any moe doesn't mean than his methods aren't still useful.

But the one I think is most plausible is simple extortion. Some kind of real threat to them or their family. With all the religious whack jobs out there, it wouldn't take much to pay a senator a little midnight visit with some photos of their kid in college and how bad it would be if they got killed in a hit and run, etc. I know that sounds like a TV plot, but where do TV plots come from? Usually the concept has existed in the real world. And with this country poised to become a theocracy the minute the republicans are in power, people could be convinced to do things in the name of religion that they wouldn't do just for politics. Any input? Please tell me I'm seeing things that don't exist---you may hurt my feelings but I think I'd feel better about our future. Thanks for reading...   ---SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 24, 2010, 10:38:16 AM

^^^ Can't disagree with the nut job conspircy theory.  But what really drives people to do what they do, even if they call themselves xtians?  Money right?

And who takes in billions of tax free dollars every year?  You got it!  Religion does!  I believe it would be very easy to persuade someone with money to do something they wouldn't normally do.

Also, that's ultimately the bigger picture behind congress isn't it?  It's all about money and who and where it goes to.  The people are just the puppets and faces put in front of us. Talk about your conspiricies!
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 24, 2010, 11:42:21 AM
This nation will not be a theocracy in any of our lifetimes, take my word on that.

The democrat Senators are leaving because they fear they will not win come November. If they lose their seat in an election, it makes them less valuable as a lobbyist later on, and so they are protecting their financial future by resigning.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 24, 2010, 11:59:30 AM

^^^ Can't disagree with the nut job conspircy theory.  But what really drives people to do what they do, even if they call themselves xtians?  Money right?

And who takes in billions of tax free dollars every year?  You got it!  Religion does!  I believe it would be very easy to persuade someone with money to do something they wouldn't normally do.

Also, that's ultimately the bigger picture behind congress isn't it?  It's all about money and who and where it goes to.  The people are just the puppets and faces put in front of us. Talk about your conspiricies!

Good point! I'll add one thing, though, that's important, and that's power. Of course, money buys power, and those with power can more easily get more money. The one thing that I try to remember when I think about the churches being in charge is that, in this country, ultimately, the power is now really in the hands of the large corporations. It used to be that republicans were the party of corporate special interests, but now I think they two parties are interchangeable in that area.

So when I think of the horrible things that a religious government can bring in, I try to remember that the big companies that are the power behind the throne, and won't let the fundies do anything that will really damage their bottom line. It's sad when your country is in such bad shape that you have to look to Halliburton and Pfizer to be the voices for sanity.  ---Just my two cents, ---SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 24, 2010, 01:51:09 PM
Quote
The democrat Senators are leaving because they fear they will not win come November. If they lose their seat in an election, it makes them less valuable as a lobbyist later on, and so they are protecting their financial future by resigning.

Seriously, what's the point in having a democratic president with a republican majority anyways? Or vice versa. It's almost a mockery of the system and nothing will get accomplished.  At least if there is a majority, progress in some direction can take place.  I don't understand what americans think they win when this happens.

I work at a company that is really 2 merged companies.  I'm from the company that is ISO certified with an indepth, well though out quality and process standards.  The other company, really has no processes in place and is a shoot from the hip reaction kind of company.

It's almost comedic to sit in meetings and watch how nothing gets done because of the 2 opposing sides.  I can't tell you how much this is exactly like what dems and reps are.  But on the larger country scale, it's not funny anymore.... it's just sad.

People need to remember now that it's a 'Global Economy' and we need to stay competitive if we want our kids and grandkids to thrive as we did.  Correction, thrive like we did before the Bush administration.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: shnozzola on February 24, 2010, 08:13:51 PM
I agree that the gridlock is maddening, especially when each of us think our own idea is the one that is right.  For instance, I think we need healthcare reform so badly it will hurt the US internationally over the next decades if it ends up that no healthcare reform is implemented because of the two sides refusing to budge.  Having said that, there are those that think this gridlock is the US founding fathers plan for democracy at its best, causing changes in government to happen very slowly, and only when an overwhelming majority are forced to agree on something. 
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Azdgari on February 24, 2010, 08:35:16 PM
This nation will not be a theocracy in any of our lifetimes, take my word on that.

How not?  All it takes is a populace who want it badly enough, no?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 24, 2010, 09:24:04 PM
Seriously, what's the point in having a democratic president with a republican majority anyways? Or vice versa. It's almost a mockery of the system and nothing will get accomplished.

So? How the hell will that be any different than the fact that nothing's being accomplished now? Obama just seems to be enjoying playing President and not actively trying to get anything done. Why? Because he knows he can't skirt through on his charisma alone next election if he happens to fuck anything up, and so he's governing extremely carefully.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 24, 2010, 09:26:45 PM
How not?  All it takes is a populace who want it badly enough, no?

Not even my parents want a theocracy, and they're as fundy as they come. This country has had a vast majority of its populace be Christian for the last 200 years and we've never gotten close.

Some country in Europe has a better chance of this than the U.S. anyway, given the influx of Islamic immigrants who have come from this type of system. Just look at their attempt to rule under Sharia law in Britain.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 24, 2010, 09:40:13 PM
Fundies don't want a theocracy; they only want a country with God-fearing leaders who govern according to Biblical principles.  Like Mike Huckabee and Sarah Palin.

They may not wear black robes and turbans and long beards, but when they pass laws based on their own particular religious interpretation of reality, that is a theocracy by any other name.

Why can't gay people get married?  Why is sodomy (often defined as anything other than missionary position) illegal in many states?  Why can't I buy beer on Sunday?  Why can't my terminally ill aunt with brain cancer choose the moment to end her own life with dignity?  Why are our public schools filling our childrens' heads with anti-scientific nonsense?

We're not going to be a theocracy.  We're already there.  Now it's only a matter of turning the screws, little by little, so we don't notice.  So what if they passed a law in the 50s putting God on our money.  Big deal.  It's just a piece of paper.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 24, 2010, 09:44:28 PM
Xphobe, I agree with your point. However, the theocracy I'm sure was in mind for this was one in which a religious leader rules the country.

Given your description, there isn't a nation on Earth that isn't a theocracy at some time or another because religion is so pervasive.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Azdgari on February 24, 2010, 10:55:36 PM
Xphobe, I agree with your point. However, the theocracy I'm sure was in mind for this was one in which a religious leader rules the country.

Define "religious leader".
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 24, 2010, 11:24:16 PM
Xphobe, I agree with your point. However, the theocracy I'm sure was in mind for this was one in which a religious leader rules the country.

Given your description, there isn't a nation on Earth that isn't a theocracy at some time or another because religion is so pervasive.

I put this link on a post earlier but am going to repeat it here as I think it really speaks to the situation we're discussing. Here is one of the best articles I've read about the fundamentalist christian/republican/tea party coalition---or conspiracy, whatever you want to call it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/feb/23/republicans-religion-secular-america

Right now the republican party is in complete lockstep with the religious right---they're one and the same. They're using the racism and xenophobia to vilify President Obama. They have most of the poor and uneducated supporting them against their own interests by scaring them with terms like 'socialism' and such that don't even really have any meaning. Since many of the poor place great stock in their religious leaders, their churches will convince them to vote republican because of issues such as abortion.

Here are my predictions and I apologize in advance for the length but I (obviously) feel quite strongly that we need to wake up:

If the rr (religious right) gets a majority in congress, then they'll also get the presidency in 2012. I believe that they will pass laws that will give gays a choice of going back in the closet or going to jail. No matter what the supreme court thinks---and I think they're pretty heavily weighted toward the rr's agenda---abortion will become illegal or at least unobtainable, through violence against doctors and clinics, within days.

All sex education in schools will teach only abstinence, and Planned Parenthood and any other organization that helps people get access to contraception, will be at the least denied funding and probably actually outlawed. Evolution will go back to being called 'darwinism' and ridiculed in our schools in favor of 'intelligent design, maybe they'll even just go back to calling it creation science. Who's going to stop them?

Conservative christianity probably won't become the state religion in name, because it would piss off the papists. For now they need the bishops on their side to convince catholics that they'll go to hell in the next lifetime and be excommunicated in this one if they fail to vote against any candidate who supports abortion choice. (That's already happening, by the way.)

But we will be a secular nation in name only once they have control of both legislative and executive branches. The democrats have become so disorganized and fragmented they can't even pass a health care bill with a super-majority in the senate. On the other hand, any republicans who don't completely fall into conservatism line are kicked out of the party and replaced with teabaggers.

During the last administration the rr, while powerful, hadn't completely taken over, plus Bush and Cheney had their own agenda. So when nobody was looking, democrats got elected. It won't happen again. And once they have the power to make the laws, it may never be possible again.

It's ironic that we've fought so hard to keep nukes out of the hands of Islamic fundamentalists, but are ready to hand them over to christian ones. Many of these people believe it's their duty to bring on the end times and may have their fingers on the button.

As I see it, cooperation between gays, women who believe in freedom and choice, hispanics, blacks, jews, muslims, atheists, and the 'liberal elite' are the only thing standing between us and the end of our country as we've known it. Just my 2 cents, as always.  --SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 25, 2010, 01:54:30 AM
Xphobe, I agree with your point. However, the theocracy I'm sure was in mind for this was one in which a religious leader rules the country.

Do you mean a leader who is religious, like George W. Bush claims to be?  Or do you mean a religious leader like a pope or an imam who runs the country?  If Mike Huckabee, a Baptist Minister, got elected president, would he count?

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, is an engineer.  Is Iran a theocracy?

As a matter of fact, every US president in my lifetime has claimed to be religious.  At this point in time, I can't imagine a non-religious (i.e a-theistic) leader getting elected President, and polls support that.  I wish it were different, but we've got a long way to go before attitudes change, and if we keep appeasing theists by granting them respect they are not due, we'll go backward not forward.

Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 25, 2010, 02:44:39 AM
I think anyone who espouses fundamentalist, extremely conservative religious viewpoints and endorses, openly, running this country 'according to judeo-christian values' counts as a religious leader. They may or may not be a minister, technically. I've heard that the litmus test for republicans running for office is: anti-abortion choice, anti-gay, pro-family, whatever that means. (Well, actually it means anti-gay.)

Oh, also pro-gun (which is OK with me) and anti-evolution at least to some extent, but not so much so that they sound real crazy. I notice Palin starts waffling when asked straight out about evolution. I'll work on finding a link some good stuff on youtube...

I think that in Iran, although the president runs the country day-to-day, the ayatollahs can say something is against islam or allah and that is that. Kind of like veto power, although they can't be outvoted. That's just my understanding, I could be wrong.

SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 25, 2010, 03:11:30 AM
I think that in Iran, although the president runs the country day-to-day, the ayatollahs can say something is against islam or allah and that is that. Kind of like veto power, although they can't be outvoted. That's just my understanding, I could be wrong.

And in the US, the president and the congress run the country day-to-day.  Meanwhile a large number of them are members of The Family (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120746516), which, since it isn't an official part of the government, can't be outvoted.


By the way, pro-gun is ok with me too :)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 25, 2010, 07:29:16 AM
Do you mean a leader who is religious, like George W. Bush claims to be?  Or do you mean a religious leader like a pope or an imam who runs the country?  If Mike Huckabee, a Baptist Minister, got elected president, would he count?

Yes, I mean a leader who people look to both for political and religious instruction like the Pope. My dad used to be a Baptist Minister, but now he works in hospital business admin. His employees look to him for advice about billing systems, but not religious instruction so it would be the same with Huckabee.

Quote
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, is an engineer.  Is Iran a theocracy?

Yes, because ultimate authority rests with the Ayatollah, someone who is not elected.

Quote
As a matter of fact, every US president in my lifetime has claimed to be religious.  At this point in time, I can't imagine a non-religious (i.e a-theistic) leader getting elected President, and polls support that.  I wish it were different, but we've got a long way to go before attitudes change, and if we keep appeasing theists by granting them respect they are not due, we'll go backward not forward.

I think we've had more atheist leaders than we might realize. Claiming to be religious and actually being so are two different things.

And SherB, you need to stop with the fear-mongering. What makes you any different from those on the opposite side of the fence that feel that a Liberal Atheist President would throw Christians in jail?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 25, 2010, 10:27:29 AM
SherB, I couldn't agree more when you said this...

"Right now the republican party is in complete lockstep with the religious right---they're one and the same. They're using the racism and xenophobia to vilify President Obama. They have most of the poor and uneducated supporting them against their own interests by scaring them with terms like 'socialism' and such that don't even really have any meaning. Since many of the poor place great stock in their religious leaders, their churches will convince them to vote republican because of issues such as abortion."

And what stands out most from this and another notch of why I feel religion is disgusting is this sad but true statement.
"They have most of the poor and uneducated supporting them against their own interests" Them meaning  republicans.
The irony and stupidity here is utterly astounding!

I have stated in another post about how ignorant and stupid the masses are and this is just another example on such a greater scale in regard to the countrys future.

Have americans already forgotten where 8 years of Bush got us?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 25, 2010, 10:39:36 AM
(http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/assets_c/2010/02/missmeyet-thumb-400x300.jpg)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/02/bush_miss_me_yet_billboard_is.html (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/02/bush_miss_me_yet_billboard_is.html)

edit - wrong photo corrected
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: nogodsforme on February 25, 2010, 04:04:59 PM
(http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/assets_c/2010/02/missmeyet-thumb-400x300.jpg)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/02/bush_miss_me_yet_billboard_is.html (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/02/bush_miss_me_yet_billboard_is.html)

edit - wrong photo corrected

That almost made me lose my lunch.....
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 25, 2010, 04:32:11 PM
I'm sorry it sounds like fear-mongering, but I don't see anyone in the mainstream, democrats or 'liberal media' paying any serious attention to how close we are to what I feel, especially as a non-theist, is the brink. So how do you think atheists are going to be treated in the next republican government? And remember, the christians claim they are being mistreated, but how many of them come to this site and claim we're picking on them? They LOVE to act aggreived and thrive on it.

But seriously, do you think an avowed atheist will be able to run for any office, teach school, hold any government job, or have access to any media outlet? Even the democtrats, they still have to at least give lip service to christianity in order to get elected. And to whoever mentioned the "Family" many congressional leaders of both parties owe alliance there. You guys know how much stock christians put in their leaders' opinions. Doesn't it scare you at least a bit?

Just my 2 cents, SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 25, 2010, 04:49:22 PM
No, because things have only gotten better, not worse.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 26, 2010, 10:16:15 AM
SherB,

Another way to look at it is that, in spite of theists overwhelming numbers they have been utterly powerless to stop the slow, inexorable advance of atheism and rational thinking. Things are getting better, just not at the rate we would like.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 26, 2010, 12:05:09 PM
Just think of it this way: Would you rather be an outspoken gay atheist in 1810, 1910, or 2010?

Still want to fear-monger now?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 26, 2010, 12:11:50 PM
Can anyone imagine the US proposing a treaty today that included the words "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"?

Have things gotten better since 1797?

@Subtleinspiration

Presidents in my lifetime
Eisenhower - Presbyterian during pres.  "under God" added to pledge, IGWT national motto.
Kennedy - Catholic
Johnson - Disciples of Christ but believed in 1st amendment separation
Nixon - Quaker, pacifism influenced Vietnam views, but church denounced his criminal acts
Ford - Episcopalian
Carter - Southern Baptist, openly born-again and evangelical
Reagan - Presbyterian - considered himself "born-again"
Bush sr - Episcopalian - didn't think an atheist should be considered a citizen
Clinton - Southern Baptist, though church condemned his stances on abortion and gays
Bush Jr - Methodist, though some church officials compare him with Southern Baptist
Obama - Muslim  ;)

The last was a joke of course.  Obama is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago.  During the campaign I had hoped he might be a closet atheist, since his mother was a secular humanist.  And he did acknowledge atheists in at least one speech.  But now I realize he's probably more of a liberal "social justice" type christian.  Still, he's about as close as we're likely to get in my lifetime.  Too bad I disagree with him about nearly everything else he does.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 26, 2010, 12:17:39 PM
Eisenhower - Presbyterian during pres.  "under God" added to pledge, IGWT national motto.

Obviously he had to sign that into law, even if he didn't generate it, so I'll give you that one.

Quote
Kennedy - Catholic

Any Presidential actions that were clearly a result of his Catholicism? Also, having a president was a huge step given the general hatred Protestants have for Catholics.

Quote
Johnson - Disciples of Christ but believed in 1st amendment separation

So his religion didn't influence his politics apparently.

Quote
Nixon - Quaker, pacifism influenced Vietnam views, but church denounced his criminal acts

Again, his religion in no way reflected on policy (and he swore like a sailor too)

Quote
Ford - Episcopalian

Any policy reflected by his belief system?

Quote
Carter - Southern Baptist, openly born-again and evangelical

Again, any policy?

Quote
Reagan - Presbyterian - considered himself "born-again"

Policy?

Quote
Bush sr - Episcopalian - didn't think an atheist should be considered a citizen

Unconfirmed. One source only.

Quote
Clinton - Southern Baptist, though church condemned his stances on abortion and gays

So obviously his religion was mere lip-service, right?

Quote
Bush Jr - Methodist, though some church officials compare him with Southern Baptist

Who cares? But I'll give you this one too because there was policy in-line with that belief system (funding for abstinence only programs, ect.)

Quote
Obama

Doesn't believe in gay marriage.

But, ultimately, so what, xphobe? Answer the question: if you were an openly gay atheist, would you want to live in 1810, 1910, or 2010? (levels of technology excepted of course).
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: nogodsforme on February 26, 2010, 02:10:07 PM
^^^I know you did not just type the words "Clinton" and "lip-service" in the same posting....no you di-in't. 8)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 26, 2010, 02:41:44 PM
But, ultimately, so what, xphobe? Answer the question: if you were an openly gay atheist, would you want to live in 1810, 1910, or 2010? (levels of technology excepted of course).

Actually the question would be better stated "if you were an openly gay atheist, could you live in 1810, 1910 or 2010?"

Edit: that's hysterical, ngfm!
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 26, 2010, 03:23:28 PM
Well, I've got to say that you've all made me feel a little safer. Hopefully even if the fundies (republicans) take over the government, there been so much progress toward gay rights, women's rights, etc., that we won't go back into some kind of dark ages. But, when I hear some of the things Sarah Palin says that engender huge responses from her admirers, and see the ratings of idiots like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh I still shudder and want to hide in a closet.

I guess the two issues that I care about are gay rights and women's rights. I'm not gay but a great many of my friends are and I see what they have to live with. And although abortion isn't necessarily a left-right issue, contraception and access to family planning is. Whenever a republican government is in charge, sex education is only about abstinence, and the people that really need access to information about contraception are denied it.

I live in a small town in a very red area of what is mostly a blue state. So I hear a lot of vitriol about the government, particularly this one. I agree with a great deal of what people say, think that if Obama could actually govern as well as he speechifies we'd be in much better shape then we are, and hate our tax-and-spend state government as much as anyone. However, around here Palin is considered something of a demi-God, and fag is still an acceptable insult. As is the n-word, although most people do look around to see whose listening.

Anyway, I feel a little bit better and hope that your position is clser to reality than mine. So thanks, and until I hear something more that frosts my ass about the fundies and rr, I'll stop fear-mongering.  ;) Oh yeah, and I won't watch faux news!
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 26, 2010, 03:28:20 PM
But, when I hear some of the things Sarah Palin says that engender huge responses from her admirers,

Sarah Palin is milking her fifteen minutes for all that it's worth and is trying to drum up morons to spur book sales. She has no political future of any significance.

Quote
I guess the two issues that I care about are gay rights and women's rights. I'm not gay but a great many of my friends are and I see what they have to live with.

Which is, by far, way better than what they had to live with in the past.

Quote
And although abortion isn't necessarily a left-right issue, contraception and access to family planning is. Whenever a republican government is in charge, sex education is only about abstinence, and the people that really need access to information about contraception are denied it.

They are not "denied" it. You can always gain access to this information if you are looking for it. I was home schooled for crying out loud, but I managed to find the information I wanted when I became sexually active.

Quote
I live in a small town in a very red area of what is mostly a blue state.

Probably do you some good to leave and get a breath of fresher air then!  ;)

Quote
Anyway, I feel a little bit better and hope that your position is clser to reality than mine. So thanks, and until I hear something more that frosts my ass about the fundies and rr, I'll stop fear-mongering.  ;) Oh yeah, and I won't watch faux news!

Why would you watch any of the mainstream news? They're all full of shit and care about ratings. CNN, MSNBC, and the rest are just as bad.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: nogodsforme on February 26, 2010, 03:38:55 PM
^^^^I agree. Kill yer TV. Read intelligent, in-depth news articles in, like, the Christian Science Monitor* and listen to the BBC. If anything really important happens, like 9-11, you will find out about it anyway. 8)

*I know, it seems strange since they are such wackadoodles about religion, but they do the best international news reporting in the US.  Go figure. :shrug
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 26, 2010, 03:55:17 PM
*I know, it seems strange since they are such wackadoodles about religion, but they do the best international news reporting in the US.  Go figure. :shrug

This has always confused me.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 26, 2010, 04:37:10 PM

^^^ Me too.  I mean, I check out both those news outlets to get info but I certainly have my bs filter on high alert.   But what better, non-bias sources are there really that have a wide range of coverage?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 26, 2010, 07:06:26 PM
But, ultimately, so what, xphobe? Answer the question: if you were an openly gay atheist, would you want to live in 1810, 1910, or 2010? (levels of technology excepted of course).

Actually I was addressing your speculation that we have probably had more atheist presidents than would admit it.   Whether their religions directly influenced their policy, all of the presidents in my lifetime have been Christian as far as I can tell. 

By the way, are you seriously suggesting that Jimmy Carter's intense personal religious convictions did not affect his public policy?  I submit that his scrupulous Bible-based morality made him one of the most ineffectual presidents in history.

Back to the current question though - In 1810 there were many deists and what we would today call secular humanists in high positions in government.  Now, I doubt they could get elected.  Jefferson for example would get totally annihilated by Faux news and the religious right.  He wasn't gay, but he did smoke dope and he had an affair with a slave, and that didn't seem to be the end of his career.  Clinton on the other hand almost got impeached over a BJ.

The 1910 decade were heady days.  Communism was blooming, fads were common, science and technology were making exciting new discoveries every day.  Probably an atheist would simply be lost in the noise.  Mark Twain was an outspoken atheist, though not openly gay, as far as I know.  He died in 1910...

Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Jim on February 26, 2010, 07:11:16 PM
Sam Clemens.... Now, that's an atheist to admire and emulate in many ways.  Even if you're not a writer.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 26, 2010, 07:31:34 PM
Quote
Can anyone imagine the US proposing a treaty today that included the words "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"?


Did we sign one like that some time? I'd love to know more. Actually I'd love to know more about what the founding fathers and such really were about. Maybe I'll do some research instead of wasting time with the boob tube on.  ;) And you're absolutely right that the left-wing media isn't really much better than the right. I actually prefer life when I get all my information from the Jon Stewart and Colbert shows. ----SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 26, 2010, 08:12:58 PM
Clinton on the other hand almost got impeached over a BJ.

It was for lying under oath.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 26, 2010, 08:34:25 PM
Did we sign one like that some time? I'd love to know more.

Yep, way back in 1797.  The Treaty of Tripoli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli).
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Agamemnon on February 26, 2010, 11:43:30 PM
...Which was signed by a Unitarian Christian.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 27, 2010, 10:56:37 AM
Clinton on the other hand almost got impeached over a BJ.

It was for lying under oath.

You're right of course.  It makes a better story when you "embellish" it.  Don't impeach me, bro!   ;)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Jim on February 27, 2010, 11:25:41 AM
Clinton on the other hand almost got impeached over a BJ.

It was for lying under oath.

You're right of course.  It makes a better story when you "embellish" it.  Don't impeach me, bro!   ;)

The impeachment came after hearings initiated by those who couldn't stand the President of the United States getting a BJ.

The impeachment followed from the BJ.


Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 27, 2010, 11:35:20 AM
Then what were the hearings about, exactly? Abuse of power? Getting sexual favors from someone over which you have authority? You're okay with this, eh?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: xphobe on February 27, 2010, 11:42:41 AM
Maybe we should move this side conversation to a "Bill Clinton" thread?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Jim on February 27, 2010, 12:12:00 PM
Then what were the hearings about, exactly? Abuse of power? Getting sexual favors from someone over which you have authority? You're okay with this, eh?

EEEEEEK!  The President got a BJ!  Call out the morality police!  EEEEEEK!

Dude, it wasn't rape, it was fully permissive sex among those of-age.  I do not fault anyone -- including the President, maybe even ESPECIALLY the President -- for wanting or having sex.  (In fact, world history may have been much different if Bush and Cheney each got a morning blowjob, every morning, while in office.  Make love, not war, eh?)

I do fault Clinton for major errors in the judgement relating to the incident.  He could have chosen a better partner, one who would have kept quiet.  He could have made sure he didn't make a mess, leaving evidence.  He should not have denied it (which led directly to said impeachment).  Frankly, a person of his position, in the international spotlight... with an intern?  Bad taste.  If you're going to get a BJ, and your hero was Kennedy, do it as Kennedy did.  Get a supermodel or beautiful actress -- if your choice of sexual partner would make the entire nation of France stand up and applaud you, you're doing well.  Lastly, though, he let himself get caught, which was the worst move he could make, in the political climate he was in.

So, no, I don't begrudge the guy for wanting or getting a blow job.  His mistake was getting called out by an intern, and cumming on her dress.  Someone on the international stage shouldn't be that crude and sloppy.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 27, 2010, 03:05:35 PM
Clinton on the other hand almost got impeached over a BJ.

It's maddening how the repbublicans used the BJ card, but they played it and it worked great to totally dupe america over something stupid.  It ultimately led to the downfall of one of our best presidents.

But I tell you what, it tells you how good the times were during that time.  Where the only thing to talk about was the president getting a BJ and some butthole play!

To all those people who coudn't take this, wouldn't you rather be talking about a BJ, verses terrorism, Iraq/Afgan war, lost jobs, bank scandals, and the biggest econimic disaster since the great depression? Talk about butthole play!  I'll take the BJ anytime... and I mean anytime!  ;)

Seriously, I hate to say this but it shows you how stupid people of America are and why the Europeans can't help but laugh at us.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: jetson on February 27, 2010, 03:33:09 PM
Now if only we could find a young female intern willing to blow a Republican.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Jim on February 27, 2010, 04:06:18 PM
Now if only we could find a young female intern willing to blow a Republican.

Ever the problem.  Finding one ready to wrap lips around wrinkles is tough.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 27, 2010, 07:59:05 PM
Now if only we could find a young female intern willing to blow a Republican.

Ever the problem.  Finding one ready to wrap lips around wrinkles is tough.

Wan't there one in the business that some congressman got in trouble for? Maybe the dems could pay a pro and get some videotape. That would sure be nice. Although it doesn't seem to matter how sordid a sex scandal a republican (or democrat, but they don't act so high and mighty) gets in, he still gets his wife and party to stand behind him and never loses his job. Oh yeah, and still votes against gays and for abstinance sex ed. It's nice to know that hypocracy stays so alive and well!

By the way, I don't think dems are any better. Their scandals seem to revolve around money and financial misconduct, and repubs have sex scandals. Very, very generally, of course!  :)

SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 27, 2010, 08:06:03 PM
So if you're speeding and a cop pulls you over and offers to let you go in exchange for a BJ, that's a-ok, right?

Or, if you're in a college class and one of your classmates, who is 19, is blowing the Professor, that's ok too, eh?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 27, 2010, 08:14:24 PM
^^^ It's not that's it's ok... It's something on a very small scale (what you just mentioned) which of course is wrong verses somthing on a very large scale (the president) that affects everyone on a very large scale (the US and the world).  And by the way, with all the issues going on right now, I do the think (hope) a BJ would get far less in attention in the media.  So yes, in this large scale situation I do beleive you can turn the other cheek on that BJ.

And that last post wasn't meant to be taken too literally, but obviously very playful.  Are you that uptight in real life?
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 27, 2010, 08:18:16 PM
No, it just seems to me that people are willing to give a pass for this simply because Clinton was "their guy" in office.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 27, 2010, 08:21:14 PM
again, pass or not, I don't believe a bj should potentially change the world and course of history for all.  It seems very narrow minded.

Also, look where we are now for humans supposively sacrificing just 1 son of god. Who would of thought! ;D
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Nick on February 27, 2010, 08:32:39 PM
Clinton got a BJ.  He did not kill anyone.  Look at how many people Bush and friends killed by making up stuff to get us into 2 wars.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 27, 2010, 08:36:05 PM
^^^ Even though I believe this as well, it could be debated. But that's my very point of comparison.

It's like when you ask theists about levels of sin and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't xtians believe that god views sin the same?  Meaning a sins a sin wether your use his name in vein or kill someone?

Common sense will tell you that if the above is considered true, then that's some batty horseshit!  We all know this shouldn't be viewed the same.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Jim on February 27, 2010, 09:00:45 PM
...
By the way, I don't think dems are any better. Their scandals seem to revolve around money and financial misconduct, and repubs have sex scandals. Very, very generally, of course!  :)

SherB

This reminds me of a post-cold-war article that I read where some ex-KGB guy was interviewed.  He said that when he was first trained (way back in the '50's) he was taught that in order to lure Americans, bait them with money, 'cause they're greedy.  Turns out that one of his opponents in the CIA was told that the Russians could be lured with sex.  As it turns out, both of their training was wrong... in practice, it was reversed: a Russian mark responded to money and an American mark responded to sex.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: DVZ3 on February 27, 2010, 09:08:24 PM

^^^ Just imgaine if they all baited with sex and money!  ;)
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: Jim on February 27, 2010, 09:13:55 PM

^^^ Just imgaine if they all baited with sex and money!  ;)

Naw, it would never happen.  All of them are too high minded, they only want to read classic novels by the fireplace.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on February 27, 2010, 09:57:59 PM
...
By the way, I don't think dems are any better. Their scandals seem to revolve around money and financial misconduct, and repubs have sex scandals. Very, very generally, of course!  :)

SherB

This reminds me of a post-cold-war article that I read where some ex-KGB guy was interviewed.  He said that when he was first trained (way back in the '50's) he was taught that in order to lure Americans, bait them with money, 'cause they're greedy.  Turns out that one of his opponents in the CIA was told that the Russians could be lured with sex.  As it turns out, both of their training was wrong... in practice, it was reversed: a Russian mark responded to money and an American mark responded to sex.

Instead of In God we Trust on our money it should say Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll, because that is seriously more in line with how we behave.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: SherB on February 28, 2010, 02:14:46 AM
Of course the plot line to I don't know how many spy movies have the Russiams luring the American or Brit with sex---and hotter women than they probably really have in Russia!  ;D Actually than they have anywhere, it's a wonder what they can do with people for the movies...
SherB
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: subtleinspiration on February 28, 2010, 03:56:45 PM
Clinton got a BJ.  He did not kill anyone.  Look at how many people Bush and friends killed by making up stuff to get us into 2 wars.

Not as large numerically, but Clinton did send American troops into Somalia, and we all know how that turned out.
Title: Re: Poll Suggests Republicans are Becoming a Fundie Religious Movement
Post by: screwtape on February 28, 2010, 10:10:16 PM
What does that have to do with the point? 

He was bolstering a force Bush I sent there one month before Clinton was sworn in.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Task_Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Task_Force)
Quote
President George H. W. Bush responded to this by initiating Operation Restore Hope on 4 December 1992, under which the United States would assume command in accordance with Resolution 794.

So Bush I made a commitment that Clinton had to fulfill.  Nice.  And Bush I did not send enough troops nor any armor.  The military said they needed both, so Clinton approved it.  What was he supposed to do, tell them "no"?   

So, what does that have to do with the point?  Apparently nothing.