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median



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The idea that the all-powerful, all-good, god Yahweh (the alleged deity of the bible) is morally perfect (and all loving) cannot be rationally defended while still maintaining that Satan is roaming the earth like a lion "seeking whom he may devour".

Your perspective assumes that you know at least as much, or more, than Yahweh.  That would be the only position from which you could then pass moral judgment on Him.

So there is a double standard then? Are you trying to argue that your alleged God 'thing' can be self contradictory? Under what circumstance (any circumstance) is it morally justified to allow a 'lion' in your house to devour your children but at the same time say that you "love" your children? Further, how can you argue that we are "made in the image and likeness of God" if you think your alleged deity allows this? "Moral perfection" has absolutely no meaning if you admit that your alleged God can violate his own rules.

You are quite wrong in your assertion above. I do not claim to know more than this "Yahweh" imaginary thing of which you speak - b/c I don't think it is real. However, there is still a direct contradiction with your theology and you haven't resolved it just by spinning or rationalizing (aka - the "bigger purpose" argument - as that argument could be used by Muslims as well). Both attempts fail to demonstrate a resolution to the conflict in your theology. An all-loving being would not allow a lion to 'devour' his children. Would you?

If you're willing to admit that you wouldn't do it (and that it would be immoral for you to do so) then please demonstrate how it CAN be moral for your alleged God but not for you.

God allegedly created hell (a place for Satan) but then allows Satan and his minions out of hell to torment his alleged children. Such actions are neither moral nor loving.


What is your source for saying that God ever had satan and his minions in Hell ever?  The Bible doesn't say that they have ever been in Hell yet, but if you know of a verse that says so, please share it and I'll stand corrected.


You just misrpresented my argument. Please read it again. I said according to your bible God created hell for this alleged 'Satan' character, Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:7-10.

Now, is hell separation from God? If so, then Satan has been in hell since he and the angels were thrown out (in this myth).


Regarding your take on God tormenting His children, again your perspective assumes that you know at least as much, or more, than Yahweh.  That would be the only position from which you could then pass moral judgment on Him.


Ah but see, you too have also passed moral judgment upon this 'god' conception you have in your mind. You have determined that this 'thing' is "good". How do you know that? By what process have you come to that conclusion? If your moral reasoning has been corrupted by "sin" then you have no reliable means for making that determination.



The truth comes out - you believe you are morally superior to God. The problem of evil does not disprove God's existence nor His holiness nor His love for humanity.

Are you familiar with martial arts?  How do students become better skilled?  By facing opponents.  Sometimes facing opponents stronger and better skilled than they are.

Satan and his minions can be used by God for good in someone's life if it brings that person into a better understanding of God and their relationship to Him and others. God can use negatives to bring about much positive, but at the time it may seem like eternal torment, because we are limited in our understanding of God and our own selves.

Peace and grace.

The truth has been out for a long time. Your God is imaginary and the problem of evil does in fact disprove your alleged deity, but of course that subject is not directly related to this OP. Morality is about well being and the minimization of harm. If you attempt to talk about anything else besides that, then you aren't talking about morality. In that sense, I am in fact morally superior to this wacko 'god' creature you believe in, and you know what, so are you. I'm guessing that you wouldn't allow a lion to devour your children or your family, would you? And yet you think your God would allow his children to be devoured, right?

I will await your response as to how you think this alleged God can allow these things and still be called loving, but until then this argument has been dealt with. The God of the bible is either not loving or imaginary. I go with option #2, just like I go with that option regarding all of the other man-made gods from history (as likely you do too!).


Doesn't it seem at least a little bit hypocritical that any time you think God did something that was beneficial to you, you can say he is "good" - but when horrific things occur you don't find yourself lifting your hands and saying, "Thank you God that you allowed such horror"? Did you say, "Praise Jesus for all those Nazi slaughter houses" or "Thank you God for the horror of Jeffrey Dahmer"? I don't think you did, but if so that would make you one sick individual who has sacrificed his own reasoning and moral sense for a mere belief in an old book.

Your God is not your standard of morality. You are.

p.s. - Your martial arts analogy fails as well b/c w'ere talking about a lion against a child who cannot defend itself again such a thing (aka - an invisible demon vs a physical person). Never-mind the fact that the very concept of 'immaterial person' is incoherent, loving parents of martial arts students do not put their kids in the ring to fight with creatures that would kill them.
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12 Monkeys Mind blown,great post December 31, 2013, 07:04:16 PM