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A few members of this forum have asked me, since I am a poor man, why I would vote against my own interest.

That you are.

Republicans didn't want the health care program. They don't want any health care program, for that matter. They developed their health care program to (1) make it look like they were doing something and to (2) ensure that any plan would be as completely privatized as possible, just in case some wild-eyed Republican actually wanted to pass something.

Earlier, you asked why Obama passed health care legislation that was originally designed by Republicans. The reason he offered the Republican-designed legislation is that he knew that true universal health care wouldn't pass, mainly due to Republican representatives in Congress. He specifically chose a plan that had been sponsored by the Republican party (at one point), supported by Republican think-tanks, supported by a Republican governor and was operating in one state (Massachusetts), so that the Republicans who were in opposition to him couldn't refuse. Why would they? But they did. They cut off their own noses to spite their faces. The current Republican candidate for President cannot even acknowledge the cognitive dissonance of his party versus the Massachusetts plan versus what Obama sponsored and Democratic members of Congress passed. Romney is running away from it like it is a 57 Plymouth Fury. A couple of weeks ago a wildfire spread through the media when one of Romney's campaign staff, during a national broadcast, suggested that a person in a competing campaign ad would have been better off if he had lived in Massachusetts at the time he was laid off from work because he would still have a health care option available to him.  Um, what? Pardon me? Apparently, she didn't get the memo to avoid speaking about the Massachusetts plan, and amazingly she's still employed by Romney's campaign. Apparently Romney doesn't like to fire people all that much.

Why run away from something you did, that you were proud of and is helpful? Oh, because somebody else doesn't like it. Oh, gollygeewillikers -- what's a Mormon to do?

Some of you seem perplexed that any woman or minority person could possibly bring themselves to vote for a Republican.

Even before now, yes. I left the Republican party long after I should have. Ronald Reagan, after switching his affiliation from Democrat to Republican (early 1960s) famously said "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The party left me." This is how I felt years ago -- about the Republican party. As an atheist, I am specifically not welcome. As an intellectual, I am not welcome. As one who likes investment in education and scientific research, I am not welcome. As a person who has worked in a hospital, handled medical billing, handled health insurance claims and now sells health insurance, the perspective I have on the American health care system is unique, I am not welcome. Every time I hear my Republican family members (of which there are many) say that they are having this or that problem with health care -- getting a product or service approved, getting it paid for, paying their share, etc -- I remind them that they should stop bitching about what they keep voting for. You keep voting for Republicans, you get to keep the same system you are bitching about. Kismet.

Republicans will tell you that you will no longer have your own doctor, you will no longer be in control of your own health care, you will wait months or years to have a medical procedure performed, your taxes will go up and there will be death panels who get to judge when you should be euthanized instead of getting more medical care. Really? This is not a joke. Republicans don't just engender this, or encourage others to speak it, they say it themselves, publicly, on the campaign trail, on the radio, on TV, etc. The fact of the matter is that in other countries that have universal health care, they still get to choose their doctors or hospitals, just like we do here, and they do sometimes have wait to see those doctors or to get into those hospitals to get the care they need, just like we do here, and they sometimes can't get everything they need or want because not everything is afforded, just like we do here. However, they do have an additional tax but that additional tax is in place of the health insurance premiums we pay, not in addition to, and their tax burden for health care is often less than the premiums we pay for our private health insurance. They get more bang for the buck. Everyone is covered so no one has to worry that having a good health care plan with their job as a requirement of their job -- they can take any job they like because they will always have health care, regardless. For many people in America, that would be freedom. For many employers in America, like myself, that would be freedom. However, the Republicans tell me that is not freedom. They say that having to obtain health insurance in the private market and pay for it is freedom. Republicans have a major intellectual and factual disconnect on that issue.

And, The Netherlands doesn't have any euthanization process in place, no matter how much Rick Santorum shouts it as true, it's not. And, the ACA doesn't have death panels, either, no matter how much Michele Bachmann wants to pitch that fork. To Republicans, the truth doesn't matter when they can just make shit up and people will believe it.

With regards to women and minorities and why any of them would vote Republican ... health care is a major concern for them and one that Republicans truly don't give a shit about. Statistically speaking, women make up about 51% of the population but consume about 80% of the health care offered. Why? Between the ages of 20-55, women consume an inordinate amount of health care compared to their representation in the population, and that's due to the physiology of their sex. They have more parts that have things go wrong, and consequently they need more procedures and medications. After 55, the morbidity rate for women is rather close to that of men. So, why would women vote for Republicans who say that these same women can just obtain health care in the private market on their own? It's difficult for them to do so. Why? Once you have some serious problems in your medical history, it can be impossible or just plain expensive to obtain health insurance. Assuming a woman could get health insurance, the premiums are 3-4x the amount that a man of the same age would pay. Why? Because in the field of insurance you match premium to risk. The more risk you present, the more premium you pay. When it comes to insuring everyone for health care, women present 3-4x the risk over men. When women aren't earning similar pay to men, paying for that health care at 3-4x the rate of men is just impossible. The ACA has some provisions to alleviate this kind of problem, but the Republicans are offering nothing in its stead.

Minorities often earn less and often work in jobs that provide no health care benefits at all. They cannot pay private health insurance premiums.

And, here we are with the Republicans repeatedly saying that they will repeal the ACA. The very act that gives people access to health care regardless of their employment status, regardless of their medical history, regardless of the amount of money they earn, and you think women and minorities should vote for a party that will take away their access to health care?

As an employer, I just want to hire people who can do the work. I don't want to be involved in my employees' health care. Period.

I assume that I am not the only person on this forum, and certainly not in this country, who votes on ideas and what I think is right...not what is in the best interest for my pocket.

When you speak of your pocket, I assume you mean that you don't want to pay more in taxes. Who has suggested that you will? Obama certainly hasn't, not unless your net income is $250,000/year or higher, and by other statements you have made I doubt that you are anywhere near that limit.

The Republicans, however, have suggested that people at lower income levels pay more taxes while affording more breaks to those making over $250,000/year -- you know, the job creators -- and allow you to pay for your own health insurance premiums with that hefty income you have. I am amazed that you can be so skeptical with regard religion but very gullible on other issues.

Yes, there are black republicans and I'd be willing to bet that the Kock brothers haven't bought them all.

I'm sure there are blacks who are Republicans. Good luck finding them. Even on the campaign trail Herman Cain had trouble finding them -- most of his followers were white. A polling firm, I forget which one, recently did a survey of black voters to determine who they will vote for: Obama or Romney. The result was that 94% were for Obama and 0% were for Romney. Perhaps that 6% in the middle represents both Republicans and Independents? If so, none in the survey were willing to say they were voting for Romney. I don't think Romney will be trolling for black votes in the Tidewater, in Cleveland, Columbus or Cincinnati, or in Miami or Orlando. The only thing he will hear are the crickets.

So, I guess since the Republican party only exists as a racist entity upholding the values of the rich white man, that makes any black republican an Uncle Tom. It's the only reasonable explanation since it makes no sense that anyone would vote against their own self interest unless they are getting kickbacks.

Do you mean kickbacks like Pentagon contracts, farm subsidies, etc?

However, since racism is institutionalized...the poor minority only have two options. Either vote for the party that will take care of them from cradle to grave or sell out and get filthy rich from the Republican party.
What is the American dream?

I don't know any more. I thought it was owning some land, putting a home on it and raising a family but it seems, now, that the dream is having the government take care of you, whether it can afford to or not, as long as you vote for the party that promises to tax the fuck out of the rich land owners.

If you want to be taken care of from cradle to grave, Republicans are quite helpful in that regard. Do you really think that Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, General Electric, etc, just come up with planes, missles, optics and what-not and go searching for a customer? No. These "defense contractors" wouldn't exist (or not exist anywhere near their prominence) without giant hand-outs from the US Government. Remember, anything the government spends money on is a hand-out, not just a welfare check, not just medical care, not just an education -- it's all a hand-out.

Changed Change Reason Date
Samothec excellent post, thank you September 05, 2012, 04:07:15 PM
screwtape righteous August 31, 2012, 07:11:50 PM