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Old testament much?   DERP.

I dont get why you cant see your downfall. This is modern day. We dont believe in gods. They are cryptic and absurd.

Well we have been talking about people he killed in th Old Testament.  And living in modern day has nothing to do with hating what is bad and loving what is good.

Quote from: DumpsterFire
Why, the good ol' US of A, of course, which is why I referenced "states" in my post. Figured you'd be sharp enough to catch that. As the nation most stricken with xtianity (not to mention the land in which you reside), I would hope that you would consider our laws to be superior. On the other hand, if you're looking for countries that apply the death penalty to the greatest number of offenses there are several places under Sharia law that might do the trick. Xtians are not generally accepted there, however, so I'd advise you to keep your head down.

Not as good as the creator's.  I don't think any human has the right to take the life of another without divine approval and he's not going to be taking any lives until the war of Armageddon, and humans aren't even going to be executing that judgment for him.  So no human has the right to take the life of another.  And you do realize the creators of the consitution you seem to value so much was created by believers?  Does that mean they are not all bad?

Quote from:  Add Homonym
1) My reading of the Bible, is that God told a small crowd of Jews to obey him, on pain of public execution, and they would have "blessings in the field" if they did. They tried to obey God for 600 years, but ended up in constant captivity. Then a person-god "came", called Jesus, who told Jews that there was now a new set of ultra-strict laws, that they had to follow, or Jews would individually burn in hell. (Hell being a new invention, as well as individual responsibility.) And, BTW, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

My reading of the Bible, is that God told a small crowd of Jews to obey him, on pain of public execution, and they would have "blessings in the field" if they did.

No this is not correct.  Nothing was forced on them.  Jehovah offered them a covenant, a legally binding agreement.  There was two parts of this agreement.  There were also terrible penalties for breaking that covenant.  This was the covenant.  Also, he NOT ONCE said he would burn them in hell.

"...Now therefore, if ye will OBEY MY VOICE indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me a Kingdom of priests, and an holy nation
. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, ALL THAT JEHOVAH HATH SPOKEN WE WILL DO." (Ex.19:5-8)

So you see what they were ultimately promised was a kingdom in exchange for their obediance.  And not just any type of kingdom, but a "kingdom of priests".  This was the beginning of the fulfillment of the Gen 3:15 prophecy.  And if they were to be priests then who would that be priests to?  "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.".

As time went on it was promised God would produce a seed that would come to serve in that priestly kingdom as king.  He was also to serve as it's high priest.  And this is what the Jews were expecting of messiah when Jesus was on earth.  They were expecting a holy king that would deliver them from their suffering and fulfill these promises of a kingdom.

The law was put in place to act as a restraint against the wickedness of the "first world" so Jehovah could bring about his purpose of "blessing all nations".  But the jews took the laws that were designed to protect them and eventually began using them to abuse one another, taking the laws to such extremes that they defeated the entire purpose of the law in the first place.  They even accused Jesus of being a law breaker for healing on the Sabbath.

So when their king was anointed by Jehovah at his baptism, he quickly began pronouncing judgement on the hipocracy of his "under priests".  He laid their sins bare in front of everyone.  In modern times, a similar thing in happening now.  The blatant hypocracy of false religion is being made known to the entire world.  What is secret cannot be hidden anymore.  Christendom itself has been full of hypocracy and bloodshed.  So has the world's other false religions.

We all know what the religious leaders did to Jesus, their king.  The religious leaders (rulers) also would not see that the messiah was to be killed and resurrected to the right hand of God.  He would serve as king grom heaven.  Basically, the jews were to be the founders of christianity and also they would serve as kings and priests, eventually to the entire earth.  They also were to be resurrected to heavenly life to be part of that ruling kingdom that would "bless all nations".  This is why Jesus preached, "repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near."

But to get to the point the jews, as a whole, rejected their king.  Therefore their king rejected them.  This is why Jesus said, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mat 21:43)

Jesus, the Son of God, and not Jehovah, hand picked the first twelve people to would be part of his ruling kingdom, they were the apostles.  While on earth Jesus continually went to the people of Israel offering them opportunity to be part of this ruling kingdom.  This was the fulfillment of Jehovah's covenant with Israel.  Many jews did respond and will serve with Christ in his kingdom.  But by and large the nation rejected their king.  Jesus lamented, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Mt 23:37,38)

Eventually the opportunity to serve and kings and priests in this kingdom was offered to the gentiles because of the unfaithfulness of Israel.  Jesus' parting instructions were, "All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world."  (Mt 28:18-20)  Baptized ones become part of that kingdom.

Now not all Christians will come to be part of the "Israel of God" that will live in the heavenly "New Jerusalem".  These will collectively be the ones that serve what was to be Israel's role.  From their heavenly position they will bring blessing to all nations.  Currently this world wide preaching will continue until Jehovah is satisfied with the extent of it.  Then Armageddon will proceed.  This will be a war between Jehovah's own anointed king, Jesus, and the "kings of the entire inhabitted earth".

Once these enemy kings are defeated and removed then Christ, and those in heaven with him, will take over complete rulership of the earth for 1000 years.  Everything that causes barriers to mankind's success, including man made government and man made false religion, will be removed.  After the resurrection of the dead, those living will enjoy global peace and security under a righteous government.  By the end of it's rule, all of mankind will be lifted to perfection.  This 1000 year rule of Christ's kingdom will be the final test upon mankind.  Under perfect conditions and as perfect humans they will face one more trial that will bring Judgement Day to it's conclusion.

Quote from:  Add Homonym
Christianity promises that if you give away all your wealth, and live in a shared household, you will receive a hundredfold in this life. It's a premise of Christianity, yet Christians still don't do it.

No, this is a false doctrine not found in the Bible.  The Bible says, "this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh" (Mk 10:7).  "All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty." (Proverbs 14:23).  And wealth is only important because man makes it important.  There will be no hoarding of wealth under God's kingdom.  There will be no need to hoard it.  A better principle will be at work, "freely ye received, freely give." (Mt 10:8)

Quote from: Add Homonym
Everything has to fall back to capitalism, because capitalism keeps personal productivity higher, by rule of the buck. It's some irony that the human idea of cooperation creates a culture that is so diverse that it can't be managed except by brutal economic laws.

Capitalism causes economic slavery.  If this is what you like then have your fill.  I am holding out for something better.  Under God's kingdom people will do what they enjoy.  Nothing will prevent anyone from becoming a scientist, not even lack of wealth.  Teachers will teach because they like to teach and they want to teach.  Where do you get the idea man was supposed to remain gatherers for all eternity?  Why would he give us such a powerful brain and why would he give us so much to learn and explore if he wanted us to remain gatherers?    I think there is enough to learn that it will keep mankind busy for eternity.

Quote from: Add Homonym
In Jewish history there has never been any proof that following God's law results in any kind of perfect society, nor is there any theological reason for a society to become perfect, since Christians have apparently been going to heaven, in the meantime. Again, this is not stated in either Judaism or Christianity anywhere, so could not be a real part of the religion.

First of all, the Jews did not follow God's law and neither has any other nation.  So all you can really say is that not following them has not led to success.  Secondly, Jews and Christians,  along with all the rest of dead people, both good and bad, are in graves (hell), awaiting a resurrection from the dead.  And actually there are millions of Christians today that are expecting to live in an earthly paradise as opposed to going to heaven or hell.

Quote from:  Anfauglir
You've said that Yahweh created perfect humans in a paradise, where they were under his protection. 

So how DID the serpent get in there to trick them?
What protection WAS Yahweh offering them?
How COULD a "perfect human" do something wrong?

First of all you need to distinguish between human perfection and the incorruptibleness of Jehovah.  Humans were perfect in that they were perfectly capable of fulfilling their God given tasks.  "Multiply, take dominion over the earth beginning in Eden".  It's when they reached beyond that God given task they became imperfectly suited.  Humans are not perfectly suited to determine what is right and what is wrong.  Even in modern day, we still cannot agree on what's right and wrong.  Man was never created to do that and he will never be able to do it.

The serpent was their because the same rebellion was taking place in heaven.  Earth became the focus of that rebellion.  Adam was perfectly capable to rejecting the serpent but he did not, nor did most of his offspring.  That's really a good picture of the state of things.  Outright rebellion is what it is. 

He was protecting them from anything that would physically harm them.  He did not protect them from their own rebellion.  Just like he is not protecting you from yours.  So don't try to take the moral high ground over Adam and Eve.

Quote from: Hatter23
As one individual? Not much, you simply have a delusion. The fact that millions hold that delusion and exert pressure on science, education, legislature, military decision, healthcare, taxation, commerce, the penal system, and so forth....it affects me daily.

So you are holding all Christians responsible for what some have done because they believe in God?  Do you also hold all athests responsible for Marxism and it's practice of state atheism?  You don't even know what I think about any of those things you've listed.  That's called discrimination.  Discrimination does not give you the moral high ground you know.

Quote from: 12 Monkeys
asked you why Yahweh did not rid the world of evil when he killed all but 7 in the flood. If he kills all but 7 and leaves evil in the world then he is a senseless murderer. If he kills all but 7 but removes evil from the world (Satan and his minions) at least he has accomplished something to make the world a better place. Since he did not rid the world of its evil,he is a murderer.

 I never offered up an explanation on why God thought he should kill men women and CHILDREN,just that he murdered them without the goal he had in mind,ridding the world of evil.......just pointless murder in an angry rage without the end purpose of NO MORE EVIL

Because it was not time for him to rid of world of all evil.  It was time for him to begin setting up his kingdom.  And there is more mankind must learn, some of it the hard way.  Experience is often the best teacher, but he will not allow any permanent harm.

You guys just don't get it do you?  What stops mankind from ultimately succeeding?  It's not lack of effort.  It's not lack of ability.  It's lack of knowledge.  What knowledge do they need that they don't possess?  They don't know how to eliminate corruption.  They don't know what's right and what's wrong and have little means to insist on what's right.  This is at the heart of mankind's failure to succeed.  Until you can elminate human corruption man can never succeed.  In fact, the evidence of pre-flood times show that corruption will eventually lead us to destruction.  "A house divided against itself cannot stand"  (Mt 12:25)

How are you going to elimante corruption?  Tell me how?  How are you going to elimate things like....

16.   Dishonest scales (Deuteronomy 25:13-16)

17.   Workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5)

18.   The wicked (Psalm 11:5)

19.   Those who love violence (Psalm 11:5)

20.   The froward [perverse] (Proverbs 3:32)

22.   A lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17)

23.   Hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17)

24.   A heart that devises wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18)

25.   Feet that are swift in running to mischief (Proverbs 6:18)

26.   A false witness who speaks lies (Proverbs 6:19)

27.   Anyone who sows discord among brethren

33.   Those who justify the wicked (Proverbs 17:15)

34.   Those who condemn the just (Proverbs 17:15)

39.   Evil plans against neighbors (Zechariah 8:17)

40.   False oaths (Zechariah 8:17)

These are the things that stop mankind from ultimate success.  That's why Jehovah hates them.

The law actually identifies what corruption is.  Even knowing that noone's been able to elimanate it.



Changed Change Reason Date
12 Monkeys speculation,speaking as if you know your God's reasons February 26, 2013, 10:28:08 PM