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kaziglu bey



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A very good question.  The quick answer is yes, it is still faith, because there is no certainty, but what 'works' is an excellent matter to raise.
I have to ask exactly what degree of "certainty"is required? The fact that science improves upon itself based upon new and better evidence makes it not faith. Faith would be continuing to believe that the world is supported by a huge guy named Atlas. Science is not faith because it is self correcting, it seeks the best explanation given the best possible evidence. Faith is not, by definition, persuaded by evidence. You can't say that two things that are totally the opposite are the same thing. That's argument of the beard.

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A large proportion of believers would say that their faith is working for them and/or that they don't believe that their life would be working without it.
Here's the difference: science works, whether you believe in it or not. Its efficacy is not dependent on the belief states of the credulous. 
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Their faith gives their lives meaning, purpose, direction and hope.
Osama bin Laden's faith gave his life meaning, purpose, direction and hope too. I don't see how this is a good thing. The fact that something gives someone these things has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not it is true. If you are going to say that faith giving people these things is good, then that has to apply to bin Laden too, or it's not a valid argument. Sorry,you lose.

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You are obviously claiming that science works and we have seen that to be true in many cases.  We have also seen where the use of science has brought significant dangers to the world.
Even in cases where science is used to accomplish something that is not good (i.e. atomic bombs) it's not because the science doesn't work. An atomic bomb works exactly the way it is supposed to. It may not be ethical to use, but it works just as predicted. The difference between science and faith in this way is that religion doesn't work to accomplish anything other than significant dangers, so to speak. It's not by accident either that there are believers who think that homosexuals and adulterers should be killed, that rape victims should be stoned, that women should be silent, that slavery is OK, because the religious books confirm all of these things. Religion gives people specific and direct license to do all manner of wickedness. Science does not operate in this same way at all. Sure, science CAN be used in bad ways, but when something bad comes out of religion, it's almost always because that's what the instruction book says to do.

In addition, how is it that EVERYTHING that has been discovered, created, accomplished, progressed, improved, envisioned, and revolutionized has only ever been because of science, and why is it that religion is constantly retarding, regressing, postponing, sabotaging, distracting, and rebelling AGAINST this process? Why are the most religious countries on earth, where the LAW is religion, such as Iran, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia, the absolute worst possible places to live, whereas the least religious countries on earth (Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands) are the best places to live?

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So, yes, we definitely need to look for what works
Please give ONE example of something in religion that works, regardless of the belief state of the observer. I will be waiting until I die.
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- while also keeping in mind that some things work for some people and not for others.
No. Science works regardless of whether people believe in it or not. You just can't try to do this. You can't say "I don't believe in gravity!" and then fly off into the air at will. You are simply making a false comparison. And in the case of religion "working" for people, in the sense of giving them hope, meaning, purpose and direction, there are plenty of things besides religion that can provide these things, and might even work better than religion, but people are just too content to think that the universe was all made specially for them.
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There is very often personal preference involved in determining the answer to 'what works'.
Yes but a religious person could easily find other ways to find meaning etc. in their lives. In fact I think it is very much easier to find meaning and purpose to ones life when you realize it's all you have. You don't waste your time on Sunday mornings listening to an elderly virgin drone on about sin and salvation. You don't waste your time having conversations in your head with an imaginary friend, asking him to help get you a raise and forgive your sins, and please please let me into heaven! You don't have to waste your time saying the rosary (indoctrination much??) or having baptisms or getting fondled by the priest.

Instead, you could sleep in, watch a movie, go for a walk, play a game with your family, spend time with a friend you haven't seen in a while, read, build/make something, pick up a new hobby, mow a neighbors lawn, go swimming, bicycling, hiking, teach your kids something new, chop some wood, walk the dog, go fishing, go boating, skiing, sledding, listen to music, go to a concert, take a few college courses in things you enjoy just for fun, really, anything other than waste a second telling Big Brother that you love him.
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DumpsterFire Damn, Kaz, you're just too good! December 31, 2012, 01:48:33 AM