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kaziglu bey

    Posts: 860
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Wow, beautiful response Kcrady, much better and even faster than mine lol! I should just wait for the seasoned vets here to respond and then plagiarize.  :P Here is my response:

"No mater how clear the evidence, one can always dream up some other explanation. Defense Lawyers do it all the time." 
-Ignoring evidence that points to a clear conclusion and instead making up a conclusion in spite of contradicting evidence is delusional. Why ignore conclusions supported by evidence in favor of those not supported(or even contradicted) by evidence? Would you want your jury to do that?

Your "fourth element" assumes that only someone who believes and has been witness can be offer a valid interpretation. So, in other words, someone who is not a member of the Bigfoot Field Research Organization doesn't truly believe, so therefore could have no valid opinion about the existence or "True Doctrine" of Bigfoot.

"Do you know how this name may imply the feminine nature of god?"
-Irrelevant since Iluvatar is a figment of J.R.R. Tolkien's imagination, just as Zeus was a figment of the Romans imagination, Osiris is a figment of Ancient Egyptian imagination, and God is the modern day figment of Christian imagination, just as he was to primitive sheep herders in biblical times.

"I gave you four elements to find the information you fail to refute." 
-Who gave YOU these four elements? Unless you have a letter from God that says that is the only way to understand him, aren't you (or someone else) just making this up? "This is why we need the four elements I have suggested" It seems that you are might be establishing these as your criteria and not God's.

"It is massive arrogance to say that we represent God when we represent only ourselves."
Are you not, by saying that since you have a special relationship with God and have borne witness, and I have not (how do you know?) that you are able to understand and therefore are the only one of the two of us able to represent God? Aren't you, by claiming to have this witness/faith based 4th element of yours, claiming to have a more accurate representation of God, when you consider it arrogant to do so? Isn't "getting it" because " I am part of the special club" arrogant?

I am not trying to insult when I say this, but I am pretty sure that you do not know what a fallacy is. For example, your statement: "This completely explains your objections concerning Columbus and the rather vague concept of so-called Christian Nations. It is a very easy thing to attach "Holy" to our deeds." 

Is an example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Deeds which you do not consider holy (even if God advocates them himself in his book) cannot be holy, as no one who is actually holy would do those things. Moses, Joshua and Aaron are supposedly Holy people, but they go on an all out killing spree, on God's orders, to destroy non-believers, man woman and child (except the women who are kept to be sex slaves, of course). So, either Moses, Aaron and Joshua are not holy men, or God's commands to his followers are not holy. If it is the first, then why is god giving them instruction and a prominent place in his book? If it is the second, how can God give unholy orders? If it's good enough for Moses, Joshua and Aaron, why is not good enough for Columbus?

"There are many false doctrines brought about by the hand of man. I join you in their refutation, but prefer to replace them with true doctrine"
But "false doctrines brought about by the hand of man" doesn't include yours? Another actual fallacy, called Special Pleading. What then, IS true doctrine?  "True Doctrine" in religion is in the eye of the beholder. Remember that SPAG thing? Because one of your requirements to attain this true doctrine is bearing witness and believing, such a person cannot be an unbiased observer, and as such unable to ascertain without bias what truth is.

"God has given many individuals great gifts to prepare for these last days."

What are these gifts? And what are "these last days"? Everyone who has ever stated, whether based on faith in God or faith in Mayan calendars, that end times are upon us has been wrong, as evidenced by the very obvious fact that we are still here, and there is no sign of Armageddon (or Ragnarok for that matter. No Three Winters yet).

"He has put knowledge in my head that I had no reason to know. He has put specific words from a foreign language into my mind so that I could talk to those who spoke only that language."

What language is that? How many of those people have you talked to? Any other knowledge that He has put into your head? Ever heard of Xenoglossy? How is it that there can be no other explanation for this other than God? Also, unless the language God granted you was Latin, Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Egyptian, or Arabic, I am not sure how you could possess any better knowledge of the true translation of the bible and associated works than I. There are how many translations of the Bible (and associated works) out there? Which one is the ONLY correct one? Or are none of them? Then you have another problem: which is the ONLY correction interpretation of the ONLY correct translation of the Bible(and associated works)? I am afraid that arrogance would be to claim to truly know this.

Linda, you are forgetting. I used to be a believer. I fell for it, hook line and sinker. I believed that God had revealed himself to me in certain ways. There could be no other explanation. I had discussions with priests (who, for the sake of argument, I am going to assume are one of those people who have actually experienced God), prayed daily, spread the word, and was generally willing to shun all logic and reason in exchange for a really cozy worldview. I was where you are now (with the exception of the xenoglossy). Though I always questioned things, and had doubts, it seemed that the answer was just that it was still just one of those mysteries of God.  In my search to fully understand God, and his doctrine, it became clear to me that the whole idea was just nonsense. No matter how the Bible is explained, or who does the explaining, it never makes any sense in the real world. As I came to understand God's Doctrine, it did not make sense how it could contain so many contradictions, so many threats, so many vile recommendations, so much slaughter. Of those incidences in which the Bible gives us a specific number, there are 2,476,633 deaths, most of them brutal murder, for which God is directly responsible. This does not include the Great Flood, Sodom and Gamorrah, or any other event for which a specific number is not given, or those killed as a result of the Death Penalty God assigns for so many infractions (Thou Shalt Not Kill?) . Why would a god that loves us cause so much cruel suffering and death? Why does he apparently continue to do so? After all, Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." God is saying, in his book, that he creates evil. I trust (again, for the sake of argument) that someone as powerful and knowledgeable as he is knows what he is talking about.

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Gnu Ordure +1 for the whole thread, not this specific post October 14, 2011, 08:05:43 PM