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The Wannabe

    Posts: 272
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Well I concede this is a tough one for sure, I'm not going to act like I know him better then he does at all, because I don't that is impossible. Actually it seems you claim to know what I'm going to say before I say it no?

While i'm no Garja, i'm gonna respond to your post here because i'm an insomniac and the act of writing this will hopefully tire me out enough mentally so i can get some damn sleep!  ;D

Ok I have a question for you all, well for me a transcending mind and intelligence makes complete sense in a universe that makes possible, and let's such a complex and coherent mathematical, and logical consistency work in nature, and it just so happens that us humans can understand that math and logic.  And last there that humans, above all creatures and evm the universe itself, in this sense that we can ask this question, why, why is this all here and why does math and logic work and make total sense, so I'm wondering how you all feel about this?

You've asked some very probing and provocative questions here.  The short answer is, math and logic are cognitive tools that man has evolved in order to interpret reality.  You see, the human abstractions of mathematics, language, and logic are not an intrinsic part of reality; in fact outside of us they don't even exist.  It might be hard for you to contemplate an understanding of the universe outside human experience, but believe me when i say that the reality we filter through our sensory organs and objective reality, while overlapping, are not the same.  There is no god who made some divine dictation that "math and logic work", math and logic were merely the means with which we interpreted (ie. made "sense" of) the fantastic, yet constant behavior of matter and energy. 

Why also do we have this desire or sense for beauty and art, I don't see how such things are accounted for in a naturalistic framework? Especially if you are putting evolution at much of your foundation, beauty and art seem to have no place in survival.

Beauty and art are another example of humanity interpreting reality in a way that would only make sense to, well, a human.  They are cognitive abstractions that hold no meaning or purpose outside our whimsically insignificant primate experience.   You think a dog has any appreciation for Picasso, or Marilyn Manson for that matter?  Of course not!  Your average golden retriever would find a squirrel much more aesthetically pleasing.

From an evolutionary standpoint, beauty and art can be thought of as byproducts of a brain that was designed to aid in the survival of our egocentric genes.  Thanks to some godless miracle, mutations that favored abstraction and inquisitiveness were favored in our species by natural selection.  These traits are what allow us to take artistic pleasure in symmetry and form.  If somehow the history of evolution on this planet was altered so that homo sapiens never came into existence, these abstractions would not exist.  Artistry and beauty are contingent upon human experience, they are not objective realities that exist outside of us.

But how much would you say you normally read the bible then?

At around the age of twelve, I was once in this Christian indoctrination club for youts called Awanas.  I was coerced by flashy badges and sugar to memorize a shitload of scripture.  It was all gibberish to me back then, but i literally read my b-i-b-l-e every day. 

I only really started to read the bible in my later teens.  That's when i began to notice moral and logical discrepancies every which way i turned those gold-guilded pages.

And then how did you come to be a Christian to begin with, was it family or a friend or what that lead you to believe to begin with?  And finally did you always, from the beginning and throughout have that sense that God just wasn't making himself known enough to ?

I was raised in a devoutly religious home.  Both parents were sincere and practicing Christians.  All throughout childhood i was dragged to Sunday school, and was part of the church choir[1].  I was inundated with Christian culture, and i believed with a fervor that only a child can muster. 

The years went by, and i continued to go to church.  I continued to be taught that the earth was only six thousand years old.  I continued to memorize bible versus.  I continued to pray.  I continued to believe. 

When i turned seventeen or so, something which proved to be fatal to this idyllic, childlike faith of mine began take root inside of me.  Curiosity.

I began to question things.  I wanted to know how the world worked.  I began to absorb culture and media outside my little Christian bubble.  I read provocative and dangerous books.  I watched provocative and dangerous films.  I googled stuff.  I started to become aware of the immense suffering and confusion around me. Questions like "If there is a god, why is there evil?" and "Why doesn't he answer my prayers, or anyone else's for that matter?" reared their ugly heads.  My faith started to make less and less sense when juxtaposed onto reality.  The basic tenants of my religion began to ring hollow. 

At eighteen i read the God Delusion, it had a profound effect upon me and my faith never fully recovered.  One year later this forum hammered the final nail in the coffin of my religious beliefs.  In the end, it was curiosity that killed the Christian dogma. 

Why are you here, Samuelke?  Are you curious too?

 1.  I'm still in possession of my family jewels, thank you very much!  ;)
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jynnan tonnix if only more people's baby steps in questioning let like yours September 01, 2012, 11:19:30 PM