Karma reasons for concrete message



    Global Moderator

    Posts: 8927
  • Darwins +1130/-27

It is not a knee jerk reaction.  I don't like laws that dont accomplish anything.
Look, don't take this personally, but you're acting on a feeling here.  It's been shown in a couple of recent studies that even intelligent people fall prey to misinterpreting things if their feelings (including political feelings) get in the way.  It happens to everyone[1][2] and that's why you need to take a step back and reexamine why you're so adamantly defending your position here.

I want you to stop and seriously think about my responses to these points you raised.  Don't just come right back with an answer, because it'll be based on your gut feelings about guns.  Look at what you want to say and ask yourself why you want to say it.

Quote from: epidemic
1) You already are not allowed to drink and carry. (the safety aspect is covered.)
Earlier in this thread, I cited U.S. Department of Justice statistics which showed that despite the fact that it's illegal to drink and drive, there were more than a million DUI arrests last year.  So my question for you is why you think drinking and carrying would be qualitatively different than drinking and driving.

Quote from: epidemic
2) No one knows if I brought the gun into the resturant that sells booze.  (so the guy who breaks the law is already to break the law)
However, having it be illegal to bring firearms into establishments that sell alcohol makes it less likely that someone who considers themselves law-abiding will bring a gun inside to begin with.  So this law is preventative as much as retributive.  So my question for you is if you think that a preventative law is worthwhile or not, and if not, why it isn't.

Quote from: epidemic
3) If I did for some reason forget my gun was on me when I went in to hang with my friends as the designated driver and ended up using it to defend my life I am made into a criminal by a useless law.  (The DA will have little alternative but to charge me.)
I will admit that there is some validity to this.  However, forgetfulness is not justification for breaking a law, anymore than someone forgetting what the speed limit is justifies repealing speed limit laws, or any other law for that matter.  So my question for you is why you think that forgetfulness is a valid reason to abolish a law.

Quote from: epidemic
o the law makes criminals out of innocent people, it does not accomplish the desired task of saving lives, and it is unenforcable generally speaking.
It does not make criminals out of innocent people, anymore than speed limit laws make criminals out of innocent people, or shoplifting laws make criminals out of innocent people.  If a person is driving 45 or 55 miles in a 35 mile per hour zone because they forgot what the speed limit was, they are breaking the law.  If a person leaves a store with merchandise they haven't paid for because they forgot it was in their pocket, they are breaking the law.  And if a person carries a gun into a bar because they forgot they were carrying it, they are (or were) breaking the law.  Why should forgetfulness justify breaking a law?

It also saved lives via a preventative measure.  At least some people who might have carried guns into a bar or some other place they could buy alcohol probably thought twice about it and decided not to because it would be breaking the law.  There's no way to tell how many of those people, if they ended up getting drunk, might have done something stupid with their gun and ended up being responsible for killing someone.

And finally, it is not unenforceable.  It might be difficult to enforce, depending on the circumstances, but (say) if someone goes into a bar and flashes that they have a gun, it is certainly enforceable then.
 1. I fall prey to it myself unless I'm very careful
 2. For that matter, The Gawd, who is normally very sensible, fell prey to it in the Zimmerman thread and quit the site because several people, myself included, kept pointing out where he was wrong in his belief about what happened.
Changed Change Reason Date
screwtape good post. I like the speed limit thing September 23, 2013, 09:59:11 AM