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An embryo or fetus isn't a baby.
You didn't answer my question.

Quote from: kcrady
Whether it deserves "ethical consideration" and if so, what sort of consideration, isn't your decision to make, or mine, and least of all to some gaggle of male politicians whose deep, heartfelt concern for the welfare of the fetus vanishes the instant it's born, especially if anyone threatens to take a nickel from a billionaire to help provide for its needs.
Sarcasm aside (and in large part I agree with it, because it is more than ridiculous for politicians to pander to their constituents over the welfare of a fetus and then totally ignore it once it's born), you're right that it isn't just one person's decision.  Any one person's, even the mother, for the simple fact that a fetus is still human, a member of the species homo sapiens.  It is just as human as a baby, or a child, or an adolescent, or an adult; it's just in a different stage of development.  It may not be a legal person, but legality is not the issue here.  There have been numerous laws which treated humans as chattel, or property, or simply vermin to be exterminated.

Whether we like it or not, we have to deal with this, and not try to sidestep it.  A fetus is human, not merely a clump of cells.  To claim that it is just a clump of cells and thus justify abortion plays right into the hands of the anti-choice groups who seek to outlaw abortion entirely.  They're fond of claiming that more than 50 million babies were murdered in the USA since Roe v Wade.  Sure, a fetus isn't technically a baby.  Sure, they weren't technically murdered.  It's still the kind of claim that resonates with people, who aren't inclined to pay much attention to technicalities, and trying to counter it with those technicalities doesn't work.

How have things in America been trending as far as abortion goes?  I would say, largely towards the extreme anti-choice position through much of America.  That means the current tactics of the pro-choice movements aren't really working too well.  The anti-choice movement stole a march when they laid claim to the title "pro-life".  Doesn't matter that they aren't really very "pro-life" except when it comes to fetuses, because, again, those are technicalities.

My feeling is that we need to acknowledge that fetuses are human, but that we need legalized abortion anyway, and explain the reasons why it's necessary.  Remember, we aren't talking to people who already support abortion, we're talking to the kind of people who see fetuses as "unborn babies", and who see pro-choice groups as trying to dodge that question by talking about the rights of the mother and other pro-choice positions.  As long as we try to talk around this issue with points that make intellectual sense, we're not going to get through to them.
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