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Patrick Henry

    Posts: 88
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I have some sympathy with Patrick here.

Then there's the  fact that people maybe think about a god as they think about love. These things are intangible yet we feel they are right.  -

 We nasty types try to knock holes in it which is quite unlike that which happens in church so it comes hard to people.

Now, Patrick, let's put it to you like this. Here we look for the sort of evidence that you would accept in any other matter of your life except religion. 

So here's the point - why do you apply one set of standards of proof to most areas of your life.......whereas you have a completely different standard of evidence for religion. The principle source of information about Christianity is the bible yet this has no first hand accounts of anything and we don't even know the names of the authors.We have passages where Jesus claims the asking god in prayer for something will yield and answer but even you must know that doesn't work. If prayer doesn't work, how can you even think that there might be an afterlife.

I'd love to know or even be part of your religion if it has answers to this sort of problem - the fact the prayer has no effect - but things like, 'it's a mystery' or 'well god's will is not the same as man's' won't cut it.
You don't need to feel sorry for me.  Believe it or not, I think about these things that you are saying all the time.  None of these are new challenges to me.
You touched on it when you said these things are intangible...........I agree that they are and that we have a very real side to us that is intangible and therefore cannot be explained merely by science.  Not knocking science, its great.  But it doesn't explain everything that I feel or see evidence of.  There, I used the word "feel", if you knew me you would know that I don't use that word often.  But the reality that thinkers need to contend with is that we:  have emotions, we feel insulted, we love, we care, we give even to those whom we don't personally know, out of compassion.  I don't see how that behavior is evolved.  You can surmise that it is, but evolution doesn't explain it.  I'm aware of the arguments for it.  But evolution doesn't explain it, imho.  Being created in the image of a loving God does explain it however.  So that is just one basis I see "evidence" for belief in special creation in the image of God. 
Prayer.  Many people believe that God answers prayer.  You can say that it's coincidence but you would be in the clear minority of people who agree with you (outside of this website). I know, being in the minority doesn't make it less true if others are deluded, but I've heard many stories from people whom I know that experienced answers to prayer.  Physical healing included.  And I'm not at all into televangelistic faith healing.  That stuff is disgusting.  Really, my focus on prayer is really more a connection with God than it is asking Him to do things for me, like a genie in a bottle.  People get it wrong when they do that.  None of this is the evidence that you are looking for........but, again my original belief is that you and I are more than just "stuff".  There are other dimensions to us and that physical "proof" in the way you are asking for it won't solve the problem.  But if you believe that we are more than just complex physical creatures, then the idea of God, makes sense.  Or becomes a plausible option, anyway.  If that door is opened, then we can talk about which god, why Jesus, etc.  If you reject that premise, then we stall out.  As for me, I accept it, it makes sense, it has opened the door to many more things that I never knew about, deeper understanding about human nature, love, relationships, pride, all kinds of stuff.  My life is better for it.  I see good results.  That is one thing that I think you and I can both agree on, is results.  Speaking of that I will add one thing because you brought it up.  You used the word "nasty" in terms of people giving believers a hard time on this website.  If you like proof, I say the results of authentic Christianity are that Christians don't treat people in a nasty way, even on a forum like this.  Compare that to atheism.  My experience is that atheists often get nasty and no one thinks twice about it.  I'm not complaing, I'm just pointing it out.  But I've seen it over and over for decades.  Civil discourse is an old, I'll dare say Christian practice.  Compare the two, and you get a "result" in favor of Christianity.   
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bertatberts Poorly thought out response, just word salad. December 19, 2013, 05:31:47 AM