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Ataraxia



    Posts: 523
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It’s funny to me that you are telling me what I believe based on your flawed logic.

Nowhere have I told you what you believe. What I have said are consequences and conclusions drawn from what you have told us you believe. I'm even asking you what you believe but you don't give any straight answers, so I have to work with what you've already supplied and draw up potential hypothetical beliefs. If you read back, you'll see plenty of "if you believe".

As for my "flawed logic", don't just tell me it is, show me it is. It's dead easy to simply assert stuff, as you've demonstrated nicely with the rest of your post.

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Here’s the problem with your thinking:  You are equating God, who is an eternal being to all other things which whether complex or not, are made by Him and therefore have a beginning.

I'm not equating god to anything. I'm taking your beliefs and showing them to be contradictory. You see complexity as evidence for intelligent design, yet you also believe simple things are created by an intelligent designer. I mean, you've just said it yourself that whether something is complex or not, god made it, therefore complexity is irrelevant to whether you believe there is an intelligent designer. You are simply reversing your argument to try and show evidence of intelligent design, when in actuality, you are taking your biased a priori assumption and retro fitting things around it. It's very transparent and not at all original.

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If God is material like us, then I could understand your point.  But God is not made, He is the maker.  God is the beginning of all and the end of all.

As I've explained, it isn't my point. It's a deconstruction of what you believe and highlighting that when your beliefs are broken down they're contradictory. Now you're telling us that we are material, but then you've told us that we have a soul, which isn't material. See what I mean by contradictory? You're all over the place. You need to make your mind up and stop compartmentalising.

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While finite beings cannot completely understand this, we can conceive it and believe it.  I do by using two things that I perceive exist…..my brain and my heart.  My brain says that physical matter cannot exist eternally.  My heart, which is that part that is made in the image of God, my soul,  says that there is something bigger than myself and Jesus revealed who that is.

Look, see you're doing it again by saying that there is part of us that is like god. So we are like god, though god is not material like us, but we have something that is made like god, which isn't material and complex, but requires making by god.
Right, so we are like god. Sheesh, I'm finding this hard work. No wonder you ignore it and carry on regardless.

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There is another main issue, and that is the issue of sin.  I know that myself and all other humans are sinners.

This thread exists for you to provide evidence that god really exists, not simply assert stuff. Don't just claim to know it, show it. I can just as easily state that I know that myself and all other humans aren't sinners. One of us is wrong, so how do we go about finding out who is most probably correct?

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I can see the results of sin and the damage it does to people.  So being made in the image of God, I realize that I need God but cannot get to him because I’ve sinned against Him.  I therefore need to be reconciled back to Him.

I see words but they mean nothing to me in that order. I'm not interested in all this assertive white noise. We want your evidence.

Also, again we are like god, but not in a complex sense because that requires god to make it, though this bit that is in the image of god requires being made by god too. Of course, god doesn't require this shared likeness being made by another intelligent designer due to special pleading.

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I’m not proving these things in the scientific way that you want me to because that is a box.  There is more to it than the box atheists try to confine this argument to.

Oh dear. As well as your erroneous sweeping generalisation of atheists, you couldn't be more wrong about what I want. I don't expect you to be able to prove it in the scientific way because you can't. What I expect is for you to be able to provide an alternative method to falsify all of these assertions you make. I've been asking this of theists since I can remember and not once got an answer. Change the world, PH, and be the first to do so....
Changed Change Reason Date
Graybeard Nice critque of ID... but will he listen? January 12, 2014, 11:40:17 AM
wright "assertive white noise"; accurate and priceless January 11, 2014, 02:02:40 PM
xyzzy For patience with contradictions and word play January 11, 2014, 10:29:55 AM