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This must be my last reply today as I am getting on a plane in a few minutes. Sorry I cannot respond to everyone. Let me simply share a few things, then you guys can bash them while I am on a plane.

1. You are right you can demonstrate micro-evolution and it was a bad analogy - sorry (however it might still work with macro-evolution - but I will concede this for the sake of argument). I was simply trying to show how it is impossible for us to demonstrate God because we are created by God and have no power to make God do things.

2. As for spiritual things it seems that the thought of this group is that all things deemed spiritual are silly and therefore not allowed in an argument. I understand but also ask you to think about what you can actually objectively observe. You see a bird. But what makes you know the bird is real, you see it. But how can you trust your eyes, because you have seen other things. How do you know those other things were real...etc... In this you see that philosophically everything at some point has to be accepted on a personal understanding of reason. (Many argue that many people see the bird - so it is real - but how do you know that many people are real). You think the bird is there is true because you believe your sense of sight, or maybe touch and sound. You believe that evolution is real (and by the way I have never said it is not) because you believe in the scientific process's that have shown evolution. I believe that God is real because my personal understanding of reason allows me to separate physical and spiritual.

3. As for the Trinity (the original post) from the earliest of church fathers humans have struggled on how the trinity works. It is part church dogma, it is completely doctrine, and is has its foundations in the Bible. But never the less, if you don't think God is real, then why do you care about the Trinity. I would rather you decide if there is a God. If there is not - then it doesn't matter. If there is, then the arguments of spirit, the Bible and others will take on new light. But as for Christians we understand the trinity as this: God is one, we as humans perceive God through our experiences which have shown the collect Christian body that God is Father, God is Jesus, and God is spirit. These are ways in which we understand God - they are not different Gods.

4. As to what helped to become a theist. It was a long process (about 10 years of various studies) and there was no one thing that led me to believe that there was a God. It was studying the complexities in science and seeing how in-probable it was that it was all random. This lead me to a creator entity. That lead me to study who this entity was and there was no answer untell I studied textual-criticism of the Bible and other things which lead me believe the disciples saw a risen King and because of that they were willing to die to stand up for what they believe in.

I guess at some level I have to take it on faith. But so do you. You believe in the Big Bang theory, but if you follow it all the way down you get to - where did the particles come from, magnetic fields, where did magnetic fields come from, laws of physics, where did the laws of physics come from - and you have to faith you will someday find an answer.

As more people are posting before I can even type responses I will hold off on talking about Genesis, Archeology, and other things until they are in topics and posts that we can focus on just those things. Sorry I have to run.
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magicmiles Good post. Polite and well expressed May 08, 2013, 02:56:21 PM