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Quote from: #2779
If God healed amputees he would have to break the very laws of the Universe He set down.

So what?  I don't see the problem here.

I think you have misunderstood the question.  My boiler plate explanation:
There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.

Quote from: #2779
We would know that we could not cause harm to one another because powers would intervene and thereby we would never choose to- sounds good, yeah?


Quote from: #2779
But that would be tyranny.

It's tyranny anyway.  "Obey me or suffer infinite tortured in hell."  That is known as a deal you cannot refuse, like in the Godfather.  It is extortion.  It is illegal as well as cruel and immoral.

Quote from: #2779
If God both SHOWED blatent acts of miraculous healing we would fall down on our knees and worship Him...we would have no choice to make between good and bad.

That is untrue if you believe the bible.  IN the OT he did blatant miracles all the time, and 5 minutes later the jews were worshipping idols.  So, your reason is completely unbiblical.

Quote from: #2779
We'd have been bullied by goodness into accepting Him.

And threat of hell isn't being bullied?  And frankly, bullying is he main MO.  Read the story of Job.  At the end of it , yhwh pretty much tells Job to STFU and take what he gives him, or else, because he is bigger and badder.

If god really did not want to bully us into accepting him, there would be no bad consequences for not choosing him.

Quote from: #2779
He doesn't want that.

He does, if the bible is to be believed.

Quote from: #2779
It is good to endure evil to see how good the fight is in us;

why?  If god is omniscient, then he need not test us.  He already knows how good the fight in us is.  The test would be unnecessarily subjecting people to stress and pain.

Quote from: #2779
to use a movie example,

?  That's all this is to you, isn't it?  It is like a movie, only real life.  A LARP. You get to play a character in a pretend drama.  That's fine.  But's please not base national policy on your game, okay?  And please don't expect other people to want to play.

Quote from: #2779
It would also spoil nature.

This line of reasoning is ridiculous. Your unspoken assumptions are invalid.  If he created the rules, he can change them at will.  And what is to say the rules he created are even good rules or fair rules?

Quote from: #2779
If you accidentally dropped off a cliff and He saved you he would either HAVE to save all murder victioms dropped off cliffs as well,

What would be wrong with that?  That would seem more just to me. 

Let's do a little thought experiment.  If you suddenly got super powers and could save people dropped off cliffs, would you do it?  I would.  No doubt.  So what makes it okay for you or I to do it, but not the guy in charge?

Quote from: #2779
Uncaring? This is He who died (nailed to a cross)

He didn't die.  Die is dead.  He came back.  Not dead.  More like an extended nap. 

Quote from: #2779
so that He might understand and thereby empathise with our suffering.

As I pointed out already, an omniscient being need not do anything to understand a situation. He already knows.  So either the whole "nailed to a cross" thing was just a bit of theater, or god is not omniscient.  Take your pick.

Quote from: #2779
But NO suffering is as great as the joy we will have with Him in the end. It simply does not weigh against it in the slightest.

And you know this, how...?
Quote from: #2779
A man losing a limb might lead to some good

Riiiight.  But I am sure, in the balance, most people would be happier with all their limbs.   

Quote from: #2779
If all this were otherwise, we'd be in Heaven. The POINT of Christianity is that we are not in heaven but hopeful of getting there.

Why not just create us in heaven in the first place?  Why the intermediate physical world, with the rules and the suffering?  Why make our default destination hell?  I think you are very confused.
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Azdgari Would really love to see a response to this. November 21, 2013, 03:59:05 AM