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    Posts: 15330
  • Darwins +1179/-40

a non-believer will talk about what God says... and point to passages in the bible wherein God does something that strikes them as abominable

That is because you would likely see those things as abominable too.  I have a hard time when people read the OT bible and are not horrified.  It really makes me wonder whether they are sane or moral.  kcrady had a Numbers 31 Challenge to demonstrate.[1]  Unfortunately, the old forum is... inaccessable.

You are not judging yhwh on his actions.  You are viewing yhwh through a lens of preconceptions.  A plain reading of the OT portrays yhwh as an abominable character.  Early xians - gnostics - saw this too.  It's not just us.

if God really exists, He created all life,

So what? An evil god could create life.  Maybe you have just been duped by his PR team?

sustains all life

Debatable.  And besides, an evil god could do that too.

and is the only possible ultimate authority.

You've said it, but not demonstrated.  I consider things like concepts and natural laws to be authorities.  Gravity is an authority.  The say so of bigger people, not really ultimate.

How can a created being tell its creator that it is wrong?

I depends.  For one, if the created being was created with the capacity to know and the creator had the capacity to be wrong.  Remember, when speaking of morality, we are yhwh's equal.  Eve at the fruit of moral knowledge.  So, that is another way. 

How can the creator of life not have the authority to end life?

You need to make a case that a creator has authority over sentient creations, not just defy us to show it doesn't. 

I do not understand how xians argue that human life is so intrinsically valuable and then turn around and view it as a posession.  If life - our lives - are valuable, then they are valuable.  If rights matter, then they matter.  If morality is real, then it applies to everyone, even god.

Does that make sense?

No.  It's fucking barbaric.

edit authoritied --> authorities
 1. here too http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=5435.msg94202#msg94202
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lotanddaughters +1, even without KCrady. +3 with, if I could. April 10, 2013, 02:06:18 PM