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jtk73



    Posts: 159
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MagicMiles - I sincerely hope that you read my reply and really, really think about my responses.

But  - we want to be the ones who decide what justice is. We want to be the ones who determine what does and doesn't fly, what should and shouldn't be punsished. But we can't be. God says he is the one and only, and God says he will punish those who break his commands.
Isn't punishment typically supposed to teach one to correct a behavior or attitude? How effective is a punishment that never ends? Where the punished is NEVER afforded the chance to correct the behavior or attitude? It seems to me that what the Christian god is doing is not punishment but torture.

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I know you all could, too. And I know that you think most of that stuff is normal, natural, a result of being human. And yes, it is a result of being human, but it isn't good, and God hates it.
What? So god created humans but couldn't leave out the behaviors that he hates? You are depowering your god. You are limiting his power to your imagination. If he is indeed all-powerful, could he not create humans with none of the attributes he hates? If not, then he is not all powerful. If he could not or would not create humans minus less favorable human attributes, how reasonable is it to punish his creations for HIS failings? And please don't bring in free will. Free will doesn't enter into it. An all powerful entity should easily be able to create sentient beings without the ability to conceive of things that offend it without affecting free will. Another question in that same vein, why would an all powerful entity be offended or hate anything? It sounds like a very human attribute to me.

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It all comes down to "me", and not "God".
Why does an all powerful entity require devotion, adoration or even recognition? Sounds like a very human attribute to me.

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God has to deal with our sin because of who He is.
And who is that? The one that created us either the way he intended or the way he was limited to.

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He will judge us. And we will come up short, every person who ever lived.
Then why bother trying? Why would he set the bar too high intentionally?

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But He also loves us. We're His creation, His children. And so He found a way to satisfy His extreme love for us AND His need for justice. He did it in Jesus.
I love my son. I would never punish him for eternity or separate him from me forcefully for any reason. Your god has a strange way of showing his love.

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Jesus came to earth and died on a cross and He did it to satisfy God's wrath.
God's wrath at his own failings in creating beings that don't piss him off?

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Jesus willingly took upon Himself the punishment from God, being separated from God, and He was the only one who could do it becuae he was the only one who could ever live on this earth without sinning
Wait, so god CAN create a being with free will but doesn't have any of the "offensive" attributes? Hmm. I'm confused.

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When God looks at me on judgement day, He will see that I know this, and that I have confessed to Him that I needed Jesus. He will see all my mis-deeds but He doesn't need to punish them because Jesus took that punishment for me.
So god or jesus or whoever actually took the 'punishment' (again how can it be punishment if you are not given the opportunity to change your behavior?) and they don't just offer it freely - one has to acknowledge them for it? That doesn't seem very humble or loving. It seems very needy for an omnipotent entity.

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He's taken that punsishment for all who will confess their sin and ask Jesus to save them from God's perfect judgement. And God promises that if we do that, if we humble ourselves and confess that need, He will send the Holy Spirit to guide us in living a life pleasing to Him. It doesn't mean we don't sin, but it certain;y means we fight against it.
Can you seriously not see how needy and human you god appears?

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You...and God. You won't fool God. God knows whether you have have felt the weight of your sins. He knows whether you shrugged and carried on, telling yourself that you are boss.
Sin is a meaningless word. I am a human. I have human needs, desires and behaviors. If an all powerful (or even super-human) being created me, it created me the way I am and therefore if it decides it is "offended" by any of my needs, desires or behaviors it is the beings own fault and has no reasonable justification for punishing me for the "offenses".

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And Jesus has promised that those failures won't be held against you, if you allow Him to do that.
Those failures would be his or his father's if they were to actually exist.

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It's God's gift, but you need to accept it. You can do that.
It's not a gift if its given with strings attached.

Edit:
I just wanted to add a little clarification. Kind of a thought experiment. A lot of people when they think of the christian god (possibly even jewish people view him this way), they picture him as a man with a white beard wearing robes - maybe glowing or flowing with light?? Most believers profess a all-powerful, omnipotent being - why would you ever imagine it looking human and WHY would you ever give it human behaviors? - wrath, jealousy, hate, etc. We are talking about an OMNIPOTENT entity! This 'being' can theoretically create a billion universes the size of the one we live in with the a mere thought in it's 'mind'. Now imagine that that omnipotent being created life on one single planet in the universe that it created, again with a mere thought! Created plants, animals and sentient, self-aware animals. The animals bodies are filled with intricate nerves, circulatory system, etc (we will pretend for a second that humans are perfectly suited for walking upright and that 'these' human's food and oxygen intake don't use the same tube). Now imagine that this omnipotent being decides that it wants the male humans to cut off a piece of their sex organ. Wait! What the fuck?! The omnipotent being is offended it the humans touch themselves for pleasure? Look at another human with lust? Eat the wrong kind of animals? Wear the wrong kinds of fabric? Remember, this 'being' can create anything with a mere thought - limited only by it's imagination. Seriously, I ask you - do these 'offenses' sound reasonable or do they sound extremely petty and human? If I believed in a god and believed that it was ALL-POWERFUL (sorry about the all caps), I would hold it to a higher standard than I do myself or my fellow humans.
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jynnan tonnix lots of sense here August 03, 2012, 11:15:19 PM