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How can we have the freedom to do anything if we do not have the freedom to fail. If we do not have the option to be harmed, if we do not have the option to harm others, how then could we ever chose to be good? Please list any scenario in which God could stop something bad from happening to us without taking away our freedom to chose.

Um, where is there freedom to choose when a 4 year old is being raped and murdered? Why does the villain get to do all the choosing?

It is one thing to tell me that I benefit from learning via failure (no argument) and another to tell me that if my failure harms others, no biggie.

Good and not good are fine as variables. Good and horrible are not. Not if the power to prevent tragic events exists.

Why does the rapist's freedom of choice get priority over the choice of the victim? I've asked that over and over and never gotten a christian to even try answering it. If there is a god in the picture, and he lets the innocent die left and right to benefit the baddest amongst us, then I see this god of yours as a monster. Here I am, supposedly the sinner in the picture, and the "good" that I know from "bad" is vastly superior to the "good" vs. "bad" that your god considers normal. How do I know this? Because my morals, if applied universally, would assure that no innocent, be it a man, woman or child, would ever be harmed by the selfish acts of another. Your god, on the other hand, artificially ascribes such importance to, as you describe it, the freedom of choice (others tell us that it is free will) that the harm is of no importance whatsoever. His motto, "Eh, who cares!", words he speaks he shrugs his shoulders tens of thousands of times a day, is not a phrase of kindness, consideration, love or even indifference.

What you are doing here is justifying this invisible god of yours, and giving your okay for him to create a world where all kinds of crap can happen. Because we live in a world where all kinds of crap does happen, and you need to carefully dovetail your lord into it. As an atheist, who isn't perplexed by the bad stuff (I don't like it, but I'm not surprised when it happens), I am concerned with finding real world ways to minimize terror and sorrow using real world methods. People have been praying for the bad stuff to stop for 2,000 years, but that approach hasn't helped. I don't know if there actually are human solutions, but I know with almost complete certainly that there are no supernatural ones.

There is no god. Followers of various imaginary beings have to work multiple excuses into their belief system because reality doesn't match their artificial world. In other words, made up stuff is inadequate, so they have to make up more stuff to justify their stance. So here you sit, working your brain cells overtime, so that you can completely justify your god's lack of action. An all powerful being who could easily create scenarios where the innocent would not suffer, but who does not, is truly a monster. None of your justifications for what appears to be complete indifference can make up for his absence. But again, there is no god, so everything you are saying is for your benefit, not the benefit of people.

I could sit down today and make up a brand new religion from scratch. And my god would have to be invisible, just like yours. There would have to be a back story to explain why he takes no action when bad things are happening. I would have to invent some variation on the free will theme to justify his apparent indifference. And I would have to tell people that they can ask for his help, but not to expect it to come in the form they request. And the story of my god would have to be quite old so that I had a good excuse for the current lack of evidence.

There is no difference between your supposedly real god and a made up one. That you can eke out a difference and happily claim you have it all figured out is ego at its worst.

(By the way, being good is pretty unnatural for us humans, on the scale we're asked to be good. Back when we were all in hunter/gatherer mode, it is apparent that in many cultures, killing members of others groups was the norm. Heck, your bible talks of such events all over the place. Our efforts at civilization are unnatural, and we humans are trying to fit ourselves into situations that couldn't have existed even a few hundred years ago. There are literally ten of thousands of reasons why bad things happen between humans. None having to do with a god. Religion just has a knack for making such things worse most of the time.)
Changed Change Reason Date
median Nice response to this guy December 31, 2013, 12:44:37 AM
Xero-Kill Well said! December 30, 2013, 09:19:21 AM
12 Monkeys the only appeal to a god is eternal life,a theists ONLY care December 23, 2013, 06:13:00 PM
eye over you Amen. December 22, 2013, 04:29:37 AM