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Don’t expect me to speak for God’s mysterious ways except that they are mysterious.  The Amish incident you want an answer on is as bad as any of them.  The best I can do here is say what I said when I got one look at the Sandy Hook killer.  I feel as sorry for him, the shooter, as I do for the victims. My assertion that removing God Bible Prayer Ten Commandments from school caused all the current killing is both my premonition’s implications as well as the environment that those killers were brought up in.  If all that bible reading, prayer and Ten commandments wasn’t outlawed and shunned by society, those killers wouldn’t have been killers.  They are as much victims of the outlawing of morality as the slaughtered are. 

And that is what you and Madalyn have done, you’ve outlawed God’s morality.  The founder’s intended that students should be immersed in the bible in public schools, Thomas Jefferson famously declared it and if I’m not mistaken ordered the government to print the bibles with taxpayers money to make sure of it.

First of all, you can pray all you want in school. But only privately.

Second: Mass killings by crazed people with guns. It can't possibly be caused by the mass closure of mental institutions during the Reagan administration. It can't possibly be caused by changes in mental health regulations that made it incredibly difficult, rather than pretty frickin' easy, to get a disturbed person involuntarily placed in a mental facility. It can't have anything to do with the pressures brought on by higher population density, increased financial inequality, frustration with bureaucracies, unreal expectations of reality brought on by mass media, fewer social or coping skills being taught, the unwillingness of society to deal with bullies and other misfits early, the refusal of gun nuts to negotiate towards any sort of sanity in gun laws, or anything else. Only the halting of open prayer in public schools.

Hmmm. I went to school. Before prayer was halted. I still became an atheist (in 1961 or 62) when I was 10 or 11. So apparently a) prayer being legal didn't affect me too much and b) despite my lack of belief, I have yet to shoot anyone.

Your effort to keep it simple and make all of this a black and white issue is typical of responses that will never fix anything. Not counting your ego, which is in fine shape. The United States is a society which glorifies the rugged individual, the pulling up of ones own boot straps. It glorifies money as the biggest measure of success, with beautiful spouses and McMansions being important too. It sets high expectations and unrealistic demands. It provides a social atmosphere where I am allowed to move into a town where you have a small business, and if I am savvy enough it is perfectly acceptable for me to put you out of business and destroy your financial world as long as I am being a good businessman. It is fine for me to move my megastore into a small town and put every small business in that town into bankruptcy, because my right to succeed transcends all other rights. And this is with or without the bible, with or without prayer in school.

Most of the shooters in these mass shootings (I know, we outlawed prayer in theaters back in 1979 and they haven't been safe since) have been disenfranchised single males with expectations of entitlements but a failed economic and/or social track record. When you create a competitive economic atmosphere, there are going to be loosers. When you create a competitive educational atmosphere, a competitive mate-seeking atmosphere, and create losers as a byproduct of the process, don't expect glitter and roses as the only by-products of failure.

Have you ever thought that life just isn't fair? Even just a little bit. Imagine, if you will, people who feel life isn't fair who can't conjure up alternative scenarios, but who can conjure up a gun. Some of them will use the weapons.

But you think that the mere inclusion of prayer in our schools will fix this. That, because you are incredibly moral and twice as good as anyone else, that the fact that you pray a lot is the deciding factor. And that enforced prayer would alter the fabric of society so fast and so well that the Columbine boys would come back to life and ask for a do-over.

I've been the victim of three crimes. One, a stolen bike. Another when my car was broken into and an empty backpack was stolen out of the back seat. And three, a business partner to stole $5,000 and another $5,000 in computer equipment and disappeared, destroying what we had built. He was an ordained minister, and when I tracked him down, he was the head minister at a medium sized church in Indiana. After he stole from me. He prayed daily, and apparently got his wish. God let him steal from me. So I'm guessing that the mere inclusion of prayer in daily life does not always lead to meticulous behavior.

Just for the record, he graduated from high school in 1960, so he could legally pray in school and he was still a jerk. How do you explain that?

I'm not mad at him any more. Its not worth my time to fret over yet another a**hole in the world. But to me, he is living proof that prayer is not a cure-all. Yet that is what you are claiming.

I could have stolen something was about three years ago. I went to the store and bought a fairly small amount of food. I was talking to a friend behind me in line and not paying any attention to the cashier. I paid and walked out with my groceries, and got thinking about how much it had cost me. It seemed to be too little. I checked my receipt and saw that I had not been charged for a $5.00 item. I pulled it out of the bag, walked back into the store and paid for it. That's how evil this particular non-praying human is. So prayer may not be the only frickin' variable.

I repeat. The world isn't black and white. No one fix is available for mass killings any more than any one fix is available for any of the kinder, sweeter single-victim killings that our society endures.

By the way, you are wrong about Jefferson and the bibles in school thing. That never happened, but christians love to tell the story anyway. Truth not being their biggest concern. You guys pray not to get shot but you don't bother policing your own behavior. I have heard the claim for years. I asked a friend, a history teacher who is a christian (his daughter just graduated from a northwestern bible school last year) if the story was true and he did some research and  that it was not (history being so important to him that it transcended his religion). This was before the Internet, so I had no links for that, but I found this story this evening and it sounds like the one that Chuck told me in about 1990.


Which happened, by the way, 19 years before Jefferson even became president.

But don't worry. You have your own permission to tell it any way you want.

P.S. I have to finish this with an observation of mine that I have presented here before. It references something you said in the first paragraph of yours that I quoted. Since you're new, I get to say it again:

It's a good thing that the lord operates in mysterious ways, otherwise there would be no other way to explain what he does.

P.P.S. 12, I loved your last sentence in the above post. But I'm guessing it is not in his personally abridged version.

Changed Change Reason Date
Samothec excellent post, thank you February 03, 2013, 11:44:53 PM
lotanddaughters That was a slap in the face. January 10, 2013, 08:20:43 AM
bertatberts Excellent reply. January 10, 2013, 05:45:19 AM