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nogodsforme



    Posts: 6866
  • Darwins +925/-6

Wayne, you have not addressed my post at all.

The places in the world that rely on religious belief (mainly fear) to control people are not as nice, in general, as the places that rely more on rationality and science to solve problems. Where would you rather live and raise a family:

1)prosperous and peaceful Japan or Denmark, surrounded by immoral atheists
2)war-torn Afghanistan or impoverished Haiti, surrounded by devout praying believers in god
Sorry.  I don't have answers to everything, and I don't proport to.  You have talked yourself out of God because of contradictions you don't understand, and I agree that there are contradictions that can't be understood.

You don't have to have the answers to everything. You just have to explain why you think that belief in supernatural beings would make a country safer, more prosperous or healthier than rational public policy based on science, education, medical care, etc. The examples I gave were of some countries with more religious belief being way worse places to live than some countries with less religious belief. These are clear facts that fly in the face of what you are trying to argue: that bad things happen because people are not religious enough.
The purpose for my posts here have to do with what validates my belief in God and I attribute the supernatural to God.  My stories are of the supernatural events in my life and the conclusions I draw from those events.  Some on this forum go beyond simply disbelieving the events are supernatural and accuse and slander me of evil deeds and intentions, which does more to invalidate their arguments than it does to call into question my conclusions.

I have done nothing of the kind.
You and I have for the last fifty years lived in a nation that has turned away from its founding principals and the result is atheists have an upper hand whereas Christians used to.  Now we see the effects and at a time so late in the game that the virtues afforded by Christian principles in public life are gone.  You talk admiringly of other cultures that you believe to be better than America is now, and it is possible that you are right.  Did you know or remember what it was like in America prior to 1962 when Atheists took control of schools?  Do you think Atheism has improved crime in America since then?

In what country do atheists have the upper hand? Not the US, that is for damn sure. Many of us here do not dare tell our coworkers or family members that we do not believe in god. We could be shunned, rejected, mistreated--  for disbelieving in a supernatural being. Can you imagine being shunned for refusing to accept that Superman was real?

Putting an agressively atheist sticker on a car is a sure-fire invite to vandalism. How many cars with aggressively Christian stickers get scratched up or have the stickers torn off? I see billboards, bus signs and flyers everyday with pro-Christian messages.

Can an openly atheist person be elected to high office? Of course not. Doesn't the president of this country have to end his speeches with "god bless the United States"?   You could not become a school principal or board member in many US communities if you are not a church-goer. A kid who objects to saying "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance might be bullied out of school. There are religious institutions in every US community that don't pay any taxes! And you think that atheists are running this country?
 
Would someone please respond to why the mass killers of today are any different than Madelyn Murray O'hare's Office manager? 

Does thinking that Superman is not real make you want to kill people? Atheists are not more likely to kill someone, or to steal or to rape or to jaywalk. We are not evil people. We just don't believe in any gods. We think that gods are like imaginary superheroes made up by people. That's it. Otherwise we are just like you.
And please make your case that believing in God, obeying the Ten Commandments and prayer would not have changed the actions of these killers.  All I hear are crickets.
This is my case:
Most people in the US say they are Christians, believe in god, and pray. As for the Ten Commandments, only 2 have any relationship to crime or legal issues at all-- #6 says don't kill and #8 says don't steal.[1]Religious belief in the US is in higher percentages than most any other industrialized country. And violent crime still happens more often in the US than in less religious industrialized places like Western Europe, Canada, Australia or Japan.

I grew up in black communities, where the people are way more religious than average, go to church more, pray more, read the bible more. (Believe me, it can get lonely being a black atheist, where people would rather assume I am a Rasta because of my waist-long dreads.) And the violent crime and incarceration rates among black folks are even higher than average.

I can locate numbers, graphs and reports to back all this up if you really want them. But the facts are clear. Belief in god, praying and so on do not make a society less violent. the correlation between lots of religion and violent crime seems to go the other way, at least statistically.[2]. Sensible gun laws, mental treatment, drug treatment, universal health care, sex education, welfare progams and job training reduce crime more than asking a supernatural being for help.
 1. You have to get all the way to #6 before you are not supposed to kill?
 2. Remember, lynchings of innocent black people-- watched by entire white communities with picnic lunches-- was prevalent back when there was mandated Christian prayer in schools
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