Hello again velkyn:-) And I always thought that cut-and-run was a Christian trait...LOL
You'd like to see the whole thing? I'm happy to oblige. You see, I figured you'd try this. Please do show me how asking for evidence of your claims is "cutting and running". I'm sorry that you seem to have decided that you need to try to tell a lie about me.
Prov, the Christianity I know about is that which is in the bible, and the various sects that claim to all be Christian. Your version is one among many. You have made repeated claims that you know certain things about it, but of course have no evidence to support your claims. Again, like so many theists who decide that their version is the only “right” one.
However, I do notice that you simply try to ignore when I point out you are wrong. Typical.
It seems you do have a religion, but like so many theists, you wish to avoid that word since others like you have made it associated with so many bad things. You have accused the Jews of being backslidden, but of course you don’t seem to know much about the religion, no matter your claims of knowing it as a “complete religion” whatever that’s supposed to mean. I see nothing “clear” about the Jews being backslidden. That seems to be the accusation of a Christian who is looking for support for his religion and the supposed “need” for their supposed messiah.
You calim that the Jewish faith is “nominally” the faith of Abraham. If this faith of Abraham was complete, then there should be no need for the laws that the Hebrew god made up. Of course, this assumes that this story is true and again, no evidence for this at all, none of it. You have repeatedly claimed that the bible is a continuous chronological story, which makes no sense if you want to declare that only the faith of Abraham is valid which it seems you want to do in your attempts to ignore that your claim that this god only gave the 10 commandments is utterly unsupported.
I also see that you’ve taken it upon yourself to determine if Jews are “faithful” or not. I do love to see theists attacking other theists on the basis of what they claim to “know” and no evidence at all. I think you should as a real Jew if they think they are faithful. I suspect that your opinion matters little to them.
Again, it seems that you have decided that you know what the god of the Israelites “really” meant, with your ignoring that it seemed to have no problem with giving the laws to the Israelites and it didn’t consider that its promise to Abraham was all that was needed. Oh and nice how you’ve decided that you and you alone can determine if someone has enough “zeal” for you to accept that they are a faithful Jews.
Oh I love this part
Yes, early Christians were indeed Jews, because early Christianity was simply a return to true Judaism.
Ah, the claim by a Christian that he’s really part of the supposed “chosen people”. He’s the “true jew” here.
Your contention that the bible has some “clear continuous logical story” is belied by the attempts you have made trying to claim that the parts you don’t like aren’t “really” part of this story. What a magic decoder ring you have. And oh, claiming againt that I must “still be religious” and the nice little attempt to equate atheism with religion, how not original. Sorry, to disappoint you dear, but no, I’m not and will not become so, no matter how hard you wish for it. And no I don’t sound like a preacher, I sounds like someone who’s read the bible.
and hmmm, how did it become that the religious law of the Jews (for it was not *only* cultural, not to them and not to the bible. Again, you seem unable to accept that this bible has this god repeatedly saying directly that it was giving these laws) become not legally binding? It seems that it sure was binding, even the Romans allowed it as long as it didn’t conflict with Roman law.
As for what Paul said, it doesn’t often match with what JC said. Paul needed a new audience and there were plenty of early Christians who disagreed with him aka “judaizers”. Suddenly, Paul says that you don’t hve to follow those pesky laws, you can just believe and this god is good with it. Quite a different religion he created. This bible that you claim is so clear, etc, has a tribal religion for one group to one that is expanded to everyone who wants in. Not the same god or religion at all. Oh and Prov, Abrham was cutting off real foreskins for his god. If this god only “really” wanted believers, why did it take thousands of years for this god to decide this and spare men such a personal snipping? It seems that this religion changes its mind as soon as it needs to accommodate reality, the reality that jews found Jesus and Paul to be ridiculous. Paul does use a direct quote, but golly he had a copy of the torah, so that must mean this god “really” meant it just for him to understand in a completely different way
Yep, plenty of believers decide that they know what god “really” meant.
It seems that you are as guilt of believing what others tell you too. Nothing original about your conspiracy claims of how you now know the “real” Christianity and how you know what this god “really” means. Like this:
In the context of the continuous story of scripture, there are no end times because the earth, the coming great nation/kingdom, and peace on earth, good will toward men, are going to exist forever. According to God's everlasting unconditional gospel promise to Abraham(the one and only faith of scripture), a great everlasting nation is going to bless all the families of all nations, with everlasting peace on earth, good will toward men. All the stuff about end times, and the end of the world, contradicts God's promise to Abraham. This means that those who believe the end of the world stuff, do not believe God's promise to Abraham, are not justified by faith, and are simply members of the universal religion of the Roman Empire, which declared it'self to be "Christian" a few hundred years ago.
Yep, one more theist sure that his version is the “right” one and the interpretation he’s latched onto is the bestest. Of course, just like the rest of the theists, you have no more evidence than they do. I’ve seen Christian after Christian make the same claims you do, that those “other Christians” aren’t TrueChristians, and that you are. You want to claim that the bible has some “one and only faith” but history is full of various claims of that, debates on what books should have been included. It seems you’d claim that one can stop at Genesis and then have the “truth faith”, of course assuming that has any more validity than the rest of your “complete and continuous” blah-blah-blah.
And more claims that I didn’t ask a question “properly”:D No dear, I did ask it properly, since I asked exactly what I wanted too. I’m sure you find it improper since you can answer me. I’m still waiting and if you wish to explain why you think your attempt at being clever “do you still beat your wife” (oh my, I’ve never seen that before
) means anything then do so.
then we get your protestations of “context”.
Context girl, context! I have no knowledge of anything which happened thousands of years ago, and neither does anyone else. I only write personal opinion, nothing else. That is all anyone writes, but of course those who insist that they are right will not admit that it is just opinion...LOL
I have a lot of knowledge of what happened thousands of years ago. That’s called archaeology and paleontology. I’m sorry if you’ve never encountered them. I see your claims that you “only write personal opinion” hilarious when in the same post, you claim to know all about the Council of Nicea and Rome, etc. Which is it, Prov, do you know history or not? Is it accurate or not? it is nice to see you try to eat your cake and have it too.
I know a lot about the bible, history, etc. I suspect that you are not used to that considering your antics. I know what I’m talking about and unlike you I don’t try to get away with making vague claims like
Do you not see how ridiculous your questions are? If you want me to show where the bible says all the things I have claimed, which you actually only think I claimed:-), I would simply say; read the bible for the chronologically continuous story which flows through it.
You see, you claim that the bible is such things, but when I say, demonstrate it, you can’t. I have read the bible and I do not see this supposed “onologically continuous story which flows through it”. You cry that it is “obvious” but I do not see it as such, so I want you to support your claims, not wave your hand like just one more Christian. You keep making claims that you know that the bible means this and such but when I ask for verses, you claim you don’t “have a bunch of standard verses which have been doctrinally selected to support my position”. This makes me wonder where your position comes from then. If not the bible, if not archaeology, then what? Of course then you claim that you can show everything I ask for in the bible.
I can show you from scripture, everything I claim.
which is it, Prov? You seem to be wasting a lot of time with these promises but I still don’t see any verses. Excuse after excuse, claims that you magically know what was “really” meant, declaring that prophecies must have meant this and such when we have no way to know if the books were written as events were happening or not.
Since Christians, and ex-Christians have never read the bible as a story, they will miss obvious things like that, and will believe whatever their leaders tell them that any given single verse means.
Oh and I’ve read the bible as a story and I still find you wrong. Now what’s your next excuse? Again, you seem to be just as guilty at finding your own belief in whatever you like for each verse or the whole “story” means. Lucifer is quite right to point out your cherry picking.
I told you my definition of a Christian which you promptly ignored and asked again. So I’ll quote myself: “My definition of a Christian is based someone calling themselves a Christian. There is no better way to know, especially since Christians differ on how they define being a Christian.” Now, if I was defining it as the bible does, I’d require a Chritian to perform miracles like JC promised they could. But since Christians can’t agree on what a Christian is, I must take them at *their* word. Not my own, not someone else’s.
Okay, let’s look at this:
31 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
and it seems this all is about Babylon and Israel/Judah events with it, and from what scholars think, it was written after the fact. Nice for ‘Zeke to write about how bad things are and assign reasons after the fact. To claim that this is a prophecy of Christianity is amusing since it seems that this god failed pretty badly in “writing” anything on anyone’s “heart”.
It’s just one more theist declaring that after the fact, that oh God must have meant this new thing since the one we thought he meant was wrong. Ooops, David failed so Jesus must be it! Oh Jesus failed so Mohammed must be it. God is not involved with any man since Prov says its true and that he’s found it in the magical “context” and “story” of the bible. It’s only if you read the bible “logically” as Prov defines it, and agree with him, that you’ll have the “true” meaning of the bible and be considered an “honest, thinking person, who is not biased by preconceived doctrines”. Seen this all before. Same arguments every time.
Virtually everything found in the 10 commandments, is also found in the 613 Mitzvot laws. Do you think that God is so doddering that He repeats Himself, or that He forgot that He had already given a law?
Evidently he is if you believe the bible since it says he did exactly that. So, please tell me how this is in the 10 commandments: Leviticus 20:18? Leviticus 11: 9? All god given laws and I’ll be hapy to see how you fit them into the “10 commandments”. Oh yes, you still haven’t shown how you know that god gave only these laws and how the bible is wrong when it says that god gave the others. The other laws were given to the national assembly as a national standard, just like I showed from bible verses saying exactly that. There is nothing that seperates out the first ten laws from the others if you read the bible like a story, page after page, not ignoring what you don’t like. If you have evidence to the contrary, show it. If not, it’s just more baseless claims from you.
One of the very first points in my contention, is that "God finished creation, declared it good, and sat down". To me that is a metaphore which says; God's plan was over when creation was finished and declared good.
And then God appears over and over again, thus belying your claim that God left humans alone. Yep, Israelites do die but god is always claimed to have a reason, so again, nothing to support your claim that the story says god goes away. Or is that more of the bible that you’ve decided to ignore? I know the whole story is garbage but I do love to point out to theists that they create their own religions to suit themselves in quite a nice bit of hypocrisy and cherry picking.
It is only your version that requires that god is not involved, no logic needed or presented. There is no reason to assume that your claim that one can ever find some magical “continuous logical story” especially when we can watch you cherry pick, declaring that anything you don’t like “obviously” must not be considered as valid because they show your claims of the bible having a continuous chronological story to be false. There is no reason to assume this
We cannot trust any individual word, or verse, to be accurate, but we can be sure that if a continuous logical story ever existed in the bible, it is still there to discover, by considering that scripture was written in narrative style, and reading it as narrative, and not as single verses to mix and match to make doctrines out of.
It could all be garbage and indeed seems that it is.
I would have thought since you left the church, you would no longer be ruled by preconceived beliefs...LOL
What preconceived beliefs, Prov? and I’m still waiting for that demonstration of your claims. Lots of excuses but nothing yet. No evidence supporting how your claims are true. You’ve made nothing but unsupported statements on how you supposedly “know” that the bible is somehow wrong, etc. That’s what I’m asking for, Prov. You can make up all you want but until you show that your claims are based in reality, and not your fantasies, it’s all just more theist woo.
It is no big deal to claim to know the "real" gospel, because it is obvious from the beginning of the bible to the end of the bible, if one is not committed to a preconceived belief.
Funny how so many people don’t find this obvious at all and find you wrong. I don’t have a preconceived belief and I still find you wrong. How can that be!
Those who think they understand Christianity because they have memorized a dozen or so verses suggested to them by a denomination, will never admit that there is a continuous story running through the bible, because they are committed to their doctrinal preconceptions. Whether they admit it or not:-(
ah, there we go, the claim that only you understand Christianity “correctly”.