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velkyn



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velkyn :  I really am [/s][/s] not cherry picking the Bible[/s][/s] maybe I am. I am beginning to think that is what we all do to prove or disprove a point.
Well, it’s all *some* people do.  There’s a difference between taking facts and quoting a book that has nothing to show that it should be trusted and taking those quotes out of context.  Again, why does the bible get something apparently close to right, and some others totally wrong? Was god not paying attention?  And you might not be personally cherry picking but the sources of your posts are.  Christians want to believe that their brethren wouldn't tell them a lie, but unfortunately, we have a stack of Chrisitans who all spread the same nonsense and who don't question it.
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And maybe we are missing the point , I read something once  that I am finding that I agree with:
I see it as wrong to try to draw out scientific data about the creation of the universe from Genesis one. Both young-earth creationists and old-earth creationists are guilty of pouring modern scientific terms back into Genesis. God could have written in scientific terms like E=mc2 , but He did not. I believe God had to accommodate himself to our limited knowledge, and limited language to communicate with us.
This fails since it assumes that your god can’t do something.  Is it or is it not omnipotent?
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God did not choose to use technical scientific terms to communicate with us. God used the common language, and familiar phrases of their day. God could have told us that the sun does not rise nor set, but that the earth is spinning around the sun. God instead used the common language of sunrise and sunset which was literal to the writers back then, but which modern concordists excuse as phenomenal language that we still use today. God is trying to communicate absolute spiritual truths, not shifting scientific theories.
And failing at both dramatically.  We have Christians who all claim that their version is the only “absolute spiritual truth”.  This also begs the question, and I’ll use the Jesus Christ Superstar version of it: 
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If you'd had it planned Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?

If you'd come today, You could have reached the whole nation. Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication
One of my favorite “operas” ever.  Your god could have told humanity those things and kept Giordano Bruno alive.  Could have advanced us far in our science.  But, your god is strangely limited to humanity’s timeline.  It’s just like medicine.  It could have taught germ theory, but no, we get “menstruating women will give you cooties!”.  It’s primitive and ignorant. If God had said, “You idiots, the earth moves around the sun”, there is no reason people couldn’t have understood it nor is there a reason that God had to intentionally let them believe a lie, and this certainly isn’t a “shifting scientific theory”. Heck it could have helped this god establish its bone fides, to tell one truth.   Your argument is the same that tries to excuse slavery, claiming that humans couldn’t have possibly understood anything else. 
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God's purpose of inspiration is clearly stated in II Timothy 3:16 which says that the Bible is inspired by God so that it is profitable for instruction in righteousness not instruction in science.
So it isn’t to be taken as scientifically valid anymore?  Then why do so many  Christians insist that it is to be taken as such.  This again demonstrates that Christians can’t agree on much of anything in their religion.
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To take a poem and use it as a scientific text is wrong. It is like trying to use a hammer as a screwdriver. It does not work. One must understand the historical context and meaning of the original language that the Bible was written in.
and we finally come to the problem of how do you determine what is what in the bible? What is metaphor? What is literal? What is poetry and what isn’t?  I know the historical context, Riley.  It was just one more Bronze/Iron age community that needed a mythos to explain the world and to declare how much better they were than anyone else. And I also have the original meaning of the language.  We have how many translations of the bible now?  And each Christian is sure that the Holy Spirit tells them what God “really” meant, and each differs.  There is no way to determine what was “meant” other than going with context, history, archaeology, etc.  And none of those disciplines support the events claimed in the bible or the existence of a god. 
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I am finding that the belief or nonbelief in the Bible and God is just that, A belief that is based on faith and nothing more. And that is what it should be. Looking down on people because their belief or lack of somehow makes them unintelligent or evil in someway is absurd. I have no doubt that the debate over the existence of God will go on for years and more that not , the same old facts and cherry picked verses of the bible will be put up as evidence. The facts are what they are and some of them are impossible to deny. To do so would insult the very brain that some believe God gave them.
Riley, to tell me that my not believing the bible is on “faith” is ridiculous.  I have evidence that shows the bible is wrong.  It’s not faith, it’s facts. No evidence of any of the events claimed or the god supposed behind everything.  I do agree that it is faith to believe in stories that have nothing to back them up.  If you still believed in Santa Claus or fairies or leprehcauns, I think I would have plenty of reason to consider you at best naïve and at worst not too bright.  I suspect you would feel the same way about me if I believed in such nonsense.
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I do not agree with every thing that I have heard here in the last couple of weeks, But to deny every fact that was set before me would not only insult my intelligence but my faith. If I think God can be explained away then I have no faith. But when facts are put in front of me that I can not deny, then to deny them would , well , be stupid. ( really no other way to say it)
What facts do you have that support the existence of your god, Riley?  One way to know a fact is to keep pushing at it.  If it gives way, and you can deny it and rebut it with more facts, then it wasn’t a fact.
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To all that has put up with me over these last few days, I thank you , and would only ask that you understand believing what you have always believed is hard to give up. So some Christians may not understand or accept facts, even if they are undeniable.
I know that, Riley.  I was once a Christian and I know how hard it is to give up feeling like some big powerful being in the sky cares for you and only you, that this being will take care of everything.  IMO, religion infantilizes humans, makes them childish, and unable to think for themselves.
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And for the Christians that come here. Anyone that believes someone is evil or should just die because their mind stays with the facts as they know them. You should be ashamed, and you need to go back in that Bible you have and reread what is and is not Christ like.
That’s one of those problems for Christians, Riley.  What is indeed Christ-like?  We have the JC who is “love thy neighbor” and then we have the one who calls Samaritan woman “dogs”, says that some people deserve to be damned because God doesn’t want them to every understand and that those who don’t accept him should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19, parable of the minas). 

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As for why God allows evil things to happen. As to why God punishes when he is suppose to be an all loving God. I don't know. After talking to and reading some of the post here and really looking at the facts that were put before me. I have found out that I don't know alot of things I once thought I did.
And that’s always good, to keep learning. 
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Again thank you for your kind help in trying to teach A Christian that he should open his mind and not be afraid of the truth and the facts that are there for all to see. You was nothing like I believed I would find on a site like this. Even if I am still a believer in A God I can't prove, You all have my respect.  I hope you don't mind me bouncing in and out from time to time.
  We have another fellow like you, OldChurchGuy, who does the same.  I would just ask you to keep thinking and not return to a comfortable but mistaken belief.  At least consider the things you took as “evidence” for your god and not pass them along as if they were facts.
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jynnan tonnix the J.C.Superstar reference and your extrapolation is great! November 14, 2011, 10:37:54 PM