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Graybeard

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Don't know where this fits, but why isn't there any accounts of jesus in heaven before he came to earth?

 :angel:

The problem is that before the New Testament, there was not the slightest hint of there being a Jesus. There are those who will point to various passages in the OT that allegedly foretell the coming of the Messiah, but these fall into two categories:

1: Those that don’t
2: Those that give conditions that Jesus did not fulfil.

There are those apologists who seem to ignore the number of times Yahweh had the chance to say, “Oh, and by the way, my kid’s up here with me.” And yet chose to say, “Thou shalt have no gods before me.” And other indications that there was Him there alone, including His name which means, "he causes to be" or "he creates." This causes a problem later.

If you read the OT, you will see that Yahweh has the ground swallow up anyone who goes against him. Jesus revolutionized the OT (basically Judaism) and, despite His saying that “not a jot or tittle of the law shall change”, He went about changing it wholesale.

Jesus’s place as the Son of God, and a deity Himself, albeit a one-third part of a deity was introduced to the Bible long after the Crucifixion; it appears as “The Johannine Comma” http://www.theopedia.com/Johannine_Comma
Quote
The Johannine comma, as it is called, is a sequence of extra words in 1 John 5:7-8 which appear in some early printed Greek texts (notably those of Erasmus), later versions of the Latin Vulgate, and in the King James Version of the Bible. See these words below in italics in the KJV and the same verse from the newer ESV.
•   "For there are three that bear record (witness) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." -1 John 5:7-8, KJV
•   "For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree." -1 John 5:7-8, ESV

[…]These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts.


Apologists say that Jesus before He was born is mentioned in John:1 where it is supposed by apologists that “The Word” = Jesus
Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh:1:2: The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh:1:3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh:1:4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


And here is inserted the Johannine Comma. (It does not appear in KJV1611.)
Some claim that this means Jesus made the World, whilst Yahweh simply “formed it”. (You work that out, I can’t.)

These bogus words then created the impossible situation where you had to believe that there was one god, but three “beings”. The Church tried its greatest thinkers out on trying to solve this problem, basically, the Church ended up saying, “Yes, it’s a mystery, isn’t it? It’s God, you know – we can’t understand him.  Oh, by the way, do you want to understand God? Well, let me explain…”

John’s gospel gets worse:

Joh:17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh:17:4: I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh:17:5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Yes, that’s Jesus talking as he dies on the cross, (but not saying the same things as he says in the other gospels.) You can see that 17:3 and 17:4 mark Jesus out as being separate from God, but 17:5 then says that Jesus was in Heaven with God before the earth was created and formed! So who was Jesus claiming to be? An angel? Just someone who had been touched by The Holy Spirit? Or did someone make up those words and place them in the Bible?

So, in answer to your question: Jesus wasn't in heaven before the NT although He was very keen on telling people what Heaven and God were like. But that is what Christians do, isn't it? They tell you what it’s like to be dead although they have never been dead.
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stuffin Thanks, nice read April 19, 2013, 07:44:06 PM