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For clarity:
We were called to a non believers house.  The house in the community we live in is know for "ghost " activity.  The family would report to us that kitchen drawers would be open and even knives being thrown at members of the family.  They all reported seeing dark wispy figures in their rooms and sounds such as foot steps, voices, and thumps. 

I've been in homes like that - what's odd about those houses is that the residents always seem to see these things, but never when non-residents are present.  That is:  bring a skeptic, and nothing happens. 

This isn't an uncommon phenomenon - it's akin to a 'shared delusion', but that seems such a clinical way of putting what is a rather remarkable and very human experience:  we both want to believe and trust those who share our existence, who are within our circle of friends.  It's almost like going to the movies, actually.

When you go to a film, your brain actually begins the experience with the idea that you're willing to allow whatever the filmmaker wants to show you to affect you.  In a good film, they take this willingness to believe and use it to drive you into suspension of disbelief, where the emotional impact of the story gains incredible weight and, for at least the time you're watching the film, some part of you believes in that film's reality.

It happens all the time in 'ghost hauntings' - you go in prepared to see a ghost, ready to believe.  This makes it easier, when the house creaks or someone forgets to close a drawer, to draw the conclusion that these odd, explainable events really have no explanation. 

.. and that's a dime summary.  The real phenomenon is far more interesting and exciting, as reality is prone to be, than can be adequately explained in a short space like this one.

This particular night the young man was drunk and challenged the what ever was in the house to dwell within him.  He open a legalistic door which the demon walked through.  The young man became violent as he was speaking in multiple voices to the family.  The went further to physical violence in which the husband physically choked the young man out to get him under control.  When we arrived the young man had black eyes, spoke in multiple voices, and stated that there were many in him. 

When you arrived, the 'husband' had been in a physical altercation with the young man, including choking.  This is the first piece of actual 'evidence' you're presenting; this 'legalistic door' that you're bringing up and the events of the challenge?  Anecdotal at best.

Why do demons have rules?  Who sets those rules?  What are the basis for your assertions about them, beyond popular culture's perception of Catholic mythology?  Why is it that every person who does something similar doesn't have the same outcome - or even a significant percentage? 

Then you arrive.  I can class this in 'eyewitness testimony', which is the weakest form of evidence.  To-wit:  "the young man had black eyes."  Was the house lighting poor?  Were you mistaking an embolism (which can cause the breaking of blood vessels in the sclera of the eyes and is often a secondary effect of violent choking or eye trauma, say, from punching) for a supernatural effect?  (Anecdotally:  I'm a diver.  I've seen a fellow surface too quickly, and get ocular edema - which, among other rather horrifying symptoms, made their eyes look wholly black.)  Did he have trauma from rubbing or clawing at his own eyes?  Did he normally wear contacts, which can exacerbate injury? 

You state that the young man was drunk.  This raises other questions:  how drunk?  How much did he have to drink that had yet to enter his system?  When you arrived, was he recovering or was his BAC still increasing?  What is the man's history while drunk - is he a violent or manic drunk? 

We now have a potential alternate explanation:  living in a house where the young man believed there to be a haunting, he got quite drunk and, with the egging on of his friends, 'opened himself to the influences of the house'.  Under chemical (depressive) influence, in the ambiance of the party that would lead to that sort of nonsense, and given the belief of the group in the house's haunting... well, it's a fairly common thing to 'break' into something like what you're describing. 

Additionally, this is a very 'hollywood' description of a possession.  The parallels to common and mass-consumed media are strong.  This should be cause for suspicion:  why would a 'possession' match up to the usual symptoms expressed by the media, when middle-ages documentation of possession is as varied as can be?  No alternate symptoms are present, and no 'expression of the supernatural' exists beyond how the boy acts.

By the way the pastor I was with holds a doctorate in counseling and he interviewed the young man.  In the misty of all that was going on we finally hear the young man's voice.  through a process he accepted Christ giving us authority to move forward.  If he had not accepted Christ we would have walked away.  Through prayer, and spiritual discernment God delivered the young man. 

Did you state that 'Christ could fix him', or some other similar expression, at any time?  Did you ever express doubt in the possession?  Did you enter the area with serious faces and already talking about demons, or did you come in (as a counsellor should) with the best smile you could manage and comforting words?

When viewing the young man's distress, did this councellor ask about drugs, alcohol, and precursor events?  Did he check for tracks and ask about medications?  Was there any discussion of the gentleman's mental state, history, or other potentially relevant issues?  After the expression of violence, did he call medical professionals?

(In the last case, if not, then he's in gross professional dereliction.)

Did your actions lead to the suggestion that behaving in the manner you expressed (accepting Christ in that moment) would lead to a lessoning of mental distress, and if not then he would have no help?  (If so, then what you did, essentially, was offer a sort of mental suggestion to an inebriated and distressed individual to commit to an activity to ease suffering.  I'm not shocked he acquiesced.)

I will discuss this with the people involved but I am very reluctant due to the abusive nature of people here.  I am not schizophrenic but it is so like the medical field to just throw labels on people. 

Disagreement is not abuse.  On the other hand, your casual dismissal of the 'medical field' implies that you are utterly unwilling to accept that there may be a physical (or purely mental) cause of the symptoms you dealt with.  This implies that you have absolutely no training that could help you separate purely medical causes (or a psychotic break) from demon possession, which will lead you to misclassification.

I would love to go to an mental hospital with the gifting God has given me and prove to you God's discerning power.  You do not have to tell me anything about the people I will let god.  Prove me wrong or right.  But would you have the mental ability to handle truth if you saw.  The answer is probably no.  You in your ration mind with see and justify so you do not have to believe it.   

... which is further identified here.  I live in Chattanooga, TN - if you're nearby, I'll gladly go with you to Moccasin Bend (our local inpatient psychiatric facility) and, if the doctors will allow it and you won't make patients' situations worse, I'll document everything that happens in several media.  We can arrange this, and you're welcome.

By the by, if you want to say how bad we are, tossing insults yourself about people's mental abilities is quite dangerous, especially given that your anecdote implies a certain amount of criminal and professional malfesance, at least on your partner's part.

To reiterate  was with a trained counselor and this was not something made up in our minds.  It was real whether you choose to believe it or not.  Deception is the plan of any enemy and the best part of deception is not knowing you are being deceived.  Ever person cn be decieved one way or another. 

I have no doubt that you believe you experienced these events as described.  However, my question for you is:  how much of what you experienced is colored by your own belief?


You want proof ask emily how she slept after inviting a legion of demon in.  Do not play with this demonic Rhelm!

hey, Emily, how did you sleep?


Just becuase you do not believe it does not mean it is not real.  I have never seen you do this mean you are not real.  All the posting could be one person with multiple personals.  Thus I am not  real and that makes you a schizophrenic.

No.  That entire solipsism ... bit.. of nonsense there is just very, very silly.
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screwtape good post April 27, 2012, 07:57:25 AM