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  • Darwins +485/-5

Deep and humble condolences in times of such difficulty. If I could, I'd just walk up to you and give you a bear hug for about five minutes straight. Please take no offense at my editing down of your post in the quoted lines above.

None taken, IDK - and thank you for your thoughts.

(Yahweh) did not directly kill your sister or dad. Granted, he most certainly allowed it to happen. But that does not mean that he wanted it to happen or couldn't have prevented their deaths. After all, God did not want Satan to rebel or Adam/Eve to fall. But he seems to have established "rules of the game" so to speak, which he will not violate the vast majority of the time.

And unfortunately, at that point your argument falls apart, as you intimate that - sometimes - Yahweh DOES intervene.  And that's where the "rules of the game" argument falls apart.

A god that set up the rules, and then NEVER intervenes, is fair enough.  It could have no claim to goodness, or love, but it would indeed be acceptable.

But the Christian god is not that hands-off non-interventionist deist god.  Its holy book is riddled with stories of how that god took a very definite and interventionist stance in the world, over and over again.  Indeed, there is an argument that the bulk of the book is very much that.

Further to that (and I don't know your personal stance on this), but the majority of Christians are very much of the opinion that their god continues to intervene, on a regular basis.  Believe that your god answers prayers?  Then you believe in a god that can and will intervene, can and will break the rules of the game.

Which makes Yahweh quite definitely the proximate cause of their deaths, because (in my sisters case) there were very definite prayers being said on her behalf, that he specifically chose to ignore.  A being that has the ability to act, is requested to act, and has a record of acting, is a very definite proximate cause.  He is as responsible as would have been a doctor with the skills to operate, but who stood by and ignored the pleas to do anything....who the day before, and the day after, had operated on others.  So, very definitely, Yahweh is the proximate cause.....unless your claim is that he does and has NEVER intervened.

Death exists because this is a fallen world, not the world as God intended it. Someday, it will be restored. And there will be no more sadness or death. I urge you not to blend actual cause and proximate cause.

And is very definitely the actual cause.  "Someday" you say.  Is your god not all powerful?  Is he not all loving?  Then "someday" can and should have been "yesterday".  "Someday" implies the will and the ability to do something……but just can't be bothered for the moment.  So all actual cause (in a similar way to the above) becomes proximate cause, in every case.

My maternal grandmother has dementia, and she's in a pitiful state currently. God is allowing it.

Yes.  On a daily basis.  Proximate cause, no matter how you wish to deny it.

God exists, and you shouldn't let even the most emotionally traumatic moments in your life persuade you that he doesn't love you, care about you, and want to spend all of eternity with you, blessing you with abundant joy, indeed rejoined with your dad and sister once again.

Please don't cheapen words like love and care in this way.  I had, and have, many real friends and family you demonstrated their love and care on a regular basis.  Who actually do and did things for me to see me through, even when it was a strain on their time and on more tangible resources.  This "god" you claim loves me, cares about me, has infinite resource and no barriers to demonstrating that resource - and chose to do nothing, as he continues, day by day, to do nothing to show that love and care.

So I repeat - don't cheapen the efforts of those who DO, by claiming that some creature who does nothing is displaying the same behaviours, because it demonstrably isn't so.

You read my account, and - despite as you say not knowing me or my family - showed the compassion to offer your condolences and best wishes for the future, and for that I thank you.  You demonstrated your care.  And I ask you this: if you had NOT posted, had NOT made contact to show your feelings, how would I know that you cared?  Would I not be entirely justified in assuming that you didn't give a toss?

Perhaps more importantly, what would it say about your true feelings if you'd hadn't posted your thoughts?  Could you really be said to "care" if you hadn't even bothered to spend a few minutes making contact?  Like I said before - your god allegedly has infinite resource and power…..and he hasn't done a damn thing.  That tells me all I need to know about how much he "cares".

As I said way back, I am delighted your god doesn't exist.  Because if he did, he is arguably the most evil thing there could possibly be.
Changed Change Reason Date
nogodsforme Damn. Just....damn. October 02, 2013, 03:18:28 PM
neopagan said with more restraint than I could muster - nice job October 02, 2013, 10:38:32 AM
jynnan tonnix Exactly. Bravo! October 02, 2013, 08:03:45 AM