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JeffPT



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Ok so what you have just done with all the examples you have give, is show the bible isn't word for word perfect which the bible itself admits that.

If the bible is not perfect, then it's not written or inspired by God.  It's then written by fallible men who can make mistakes and lie. If we openly admit that some of it is a lie, then it opens the possibility that all of it is a lie.  I'm not saying all of it is a lie, but I AM saying that it's possible.  And if it's possible, then which is more likely... they lied about Jesus, or that an invisible man in the sky sent his son (who was himself) down to Earth to live among the people he created, only to have himself tortured and killed to appease God (who was himself) to make up for a mistake that he himself created? 

It goes a step further in saying that some of its contents are up for scrutiny and corrections, but there are some certain ideas that are set in stone and have been the crucial ideas of the religion since Jesus came.

Like what?  Do you have any of the original writings so you can back up your statement here?  I'd like to see them please.  Do you know that early Christians were far more diverse in their beliefs about Jesus than it ever has been since (and that's saying something)? 

As I said before he is the truth, the way, and the life and only through him can we get to the father. That was preached by Jesus and still is the main point today and hasn't changed.

That phrase is from the Gospel of John; the last of the gospels to be written, some 70+ years after he died.  The reason you don't find that phrase in Mark (the first gospel to be written, some 40 years after the supposed Jesus character died), is because Mark's version of Jesus is NOTHING like John's version.  In Mark, Jesus is not the super powerful God man you see in John.  If you don't believe me, then I will show you how to see it for yourself.  First, go read the gospel of Mark from front to back.  Get a feel for Mark's Jesus as he paints him. Don't think of it as part of a larger cannon of biblical text.  Then do the same for John.  You will see the remarkable evolution and transformation of Jesus from a regular guy who was chosen to do good things and given some special tricks (Mark), all the way to God himself (John). 

I guess my point is that you saying Jesus preached that he was the way, the truth and the light from the very beginning is much more likely incorrect than correct. 

You would have yourself a very stable point if I were a Muslim say because they believe their book is the perfect word of God.

We have a point whether you are a Christian, a Muslim or any other religion.  The bigger problem for you is that our points hurt your position very badly and you are running out of counters for it.  Eventually you will dissolve into preaching (which I think has started in this post) and you will become frustrated at losing in every post.  Don't worry though.  If history is any judge, your faith will override your logic in the end.  You will stop coming to this site eventually and you will put your head back into the sand where it's been for so long before. 

But I see that it makes total sense for it not to be perfect just because of how language is so ambiguous and the loss of meaning through time.

So the LACK of perfection makes sense to you?  If the book were perfect, that would make sense to you too, right?  Yeah... Anyway. 

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about here.  You're twisting it around again.  You see, I sit here as an atheist and say that the imperfections of the bible mean that it's possible that the bible is nothing more than a regular book written by men who make mistakes, and you now see those same imperfections and you shove that reality into your world view and spit out an answer that your brain had to do mental gymnastics to get to.  "Oh yeah!" you say.  "The language is lost over time!" you say, as if that makes everything all better for you.  Well, it doesn't.  The lack of perfection means it's not from God, and that means it's just from men.  Like it or not, that's a large problem for your belief. 

To the comment that I get what I want out of it can't be true because I don't always like what's said, for instance it always talks about how life won't be easier when you believe, still gonna struggle just the same, but it will be different.

Life is a struggle because we are fragile living animals, on a small planet, with undersized brains, looking for limited resources and competing with one another daily for those resources.  Life isn't easy.  This is an observation that anyone can make.  So the bible saying life won't be easy doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.  It's not overly prophesetic to say life won't be easy as a believer when life isn't easy, period. 

And I have thought that I was wrong about all this many many times but there came a point and I haven't questioned it since.

Closing your mind to alternate possibilities eliminates the possibility that you could assimilate new information and thus rethink your stance.  You may want to reopen the case. 

I'm still opened minded but I am strong in my beliefs

No, you just admitted you closed your mind by saying you haven't questioned it since.  And being strong in your beliefs has no bearing on whether or not they are correct. 

Every person who practices a religion thinks their beliefs are strong, and for some reason they are proud of it. 

I don't think any differently about anyone with differing beliefs then mine, I respect each person the same and that is the same respect I give myself I mean that from the depths of my heart in all encompassing honesty.

Well, that's all well and good but not very biblical. 

I don't quite feel the same way.  You see, I respect (100% fully respect) your right to form your beliefs.  Really I do.  But that doesn't mean I have to respect them.  If you believe that your religion entitles you to punch me in the face, I'm not going to respect that.  If your religion entitles you to ram planes filled with people into tall buildings, I'm not going to respect that.  And if your religion tells you that gays should be denied the right to marry, that slave ownership is fine, that selling our daughters into slavery is fine, that cutting off a piece of a baby boy's penis is fine, that denying medical care to pregnant women is fine, that teaching creationism over evolution in schools is fine, then I'm going to have a serious fucking problem with it. 

I can respect your right to have beliefs.  But it's a whole different thing to ask me to respect what you actually do believe.  And I don't respect the Christian belief.  It's not respectable.  It's awful.  And it's untrue.   

The bible talks about how even if you don't believe you can very well still be a good person.

Yeah, you can be a good person and all that, but if you don't believe in Jesus, you're still deserving of eternal punishment in hell. 

But just for effect, lets have a reading of Deuteronomy...

If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,"... you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.... If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell there, that certain base fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of the city, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods" which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently; and behold, if it be true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, destroying it utterly, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.   DEUTERONOMY 13:6, 8-15

I thought you'd like to see how the bible really views non-believers and followers of other faiths. 

I guess I was trying to get at this idea that I see on this forum, and do tell me if I'm wrong that anyone feels like this, but it seems most of you don't want there to be a God, and no matter the argument or evidence your goal is set to prove it wrong.

No, wrong, definitely incorrect.  This is not right at all.  What we WANT has no bearing at all on what IS.  Personally, all I want is the truth.  If God is real, I want to know.  If God is not real, I want to know that too.

If you really think that all of our arguments come from a lack of desire for God to be real, then that should be evidenced in all of our posts.  Go back and reread some of them.  Are there problems with the logic?  Do we make appeals to our emotional desires for there to be no God in our answers to you?  No, we don't.  We are giving you information Sam.  We're giving you the reasons for our atheism, not our personal desires.  Do with it what you will. 

Do you really think your arguments are good?  Seriously?  Look, the bottom line is that the atheist argument is FAR superior to the Christian one in just about every single situation.  Even if I HATED that fact with an intense passion, it wouldn't change it.  If I HATED the idea that the Earth has a moon, would that change the fact that it does? 

Why would God, who chose to give life, want to go beyond( the already present evidence of his existence, I'll go further with that in a moment) and try to make one believe who wants and try's to prove he isn't there?

Why do you make it sound like God is just a petty human with petty feelings of jealousy and spite?  You want us to think God sits on high and folds his arms like RuPaul saying, "If that man don't want to deal with me, then I ain' gonna deal wit him!"  What sort of God are you worshiping here?  Isn't he supposed to be better than that? 

I would like you all to give me your examples that the bible is so contradictory and so false, if I can just get the name of the verses if possible that would help out.

I gave you one.  Who put the spices on Jesus body after he died?  There are literally hundreds more.  Does anyone have the link to that poster thing with the red lines connecting the contradictions? 


Can you show the resurrection did not happen?

If I said my grandfather rose from the dead after 3 days, would it be on you to disprove it, or on me to prove it? 

The resurrection is a miraculous, supernatural event.  In any situation, is it more reasonable to assume that a supernatural event has taken place, or that an alternate yet natural explanation is more likely?  The latter is always more likely, because that is what reality tells us. 

This is also a sincere question of mine honestly, because I understand how absurd I seem to some of you but I am, with every single ounce, in the entirety of my being, certain that what I believe is true.

So is a Muslim, a Hindu, a Jew, a Taoist, a Native American, etc, etc.  What's your point?  Do you think they are less devout than you?  Do you think they're all wrong and you're right?  Why?  Isn't it possible that you all just suffer from the same sort of delusion in a different cultural form? 

The question though..... How do you personally define morals in your own life?

This is a can of worms best left unopened for now Sam.  You have enough to handle without getting into that battle too.  Save this one for later.  Trust me.
 
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DumpsterFire Great points, and I love the RuPaul reference! August 08, 2012, 11:28:38 PM