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Quick question to all that this relates to in what you have said, how can you say that you have never heard, seen, or understood God or whatever he tries to get through to us if you have never actually taken that first step, in saying ok God I'm gonna trust you are actually here

I have to break this up at this comma, because you ran on and on with this sentence. 

First, this isn't the way things normally work Sam.  You've been led to believe by lots of people that god is real.  That may or may not be the case.  In order for that to be the case, you can't START by saying "Ok, God, you're real."  You have to start with the assumption that either of them could be true. 

Why don't you start with the rejection of God as being real and live your life normally.  Or why don't you start with the belief that Allah is real.  Or Thor, or Zeus. 

Do you really think that it's a good move to start with the premise that God is real and make everything else fit into that?  Or do you think it is better to allow the evidence at hand to lead you to your conclusions?  If I said to you that you had to start with the premise that leprechauns were real and try to understand them that way, what would you say to me?  At what point in time can you ever stop saying leprechauns are real if the entire thing depends on believing it's real to start with? 

You've bought into the notion that God is real, and now you can't get out of it.  You're locked in.  No matter how much reality slaps you in the face and tells you that there is no such thing as the Christian God (29,000 kids die every day of starvation, cancer kills millions every year, the holocaust, etc), you are literally forced find ways to explain all of that away because you start with the belief that God is real.  Try not doing that.  Start with the notion of 'could god be real' and let the evidence lead you.  That's all we do different from you. 

, then do some looking into the bible (or whatever religion you want to know about) and learn exactly what it says about prayer

Be careful here.  You're on a website with people who probably know a lot more about your bible than you do.  Most of us have read it.  Most of us have heard all the arguments.  We know exactly what the bible says about prayer.  The fact that reality does not jive with what the bible says about prayer is not lost on us.  It is lost on you.  You are the one forced to find explanations to get around the fact that in many places the bible explicitly says that if you pray for something in Jesus name, you'll get it. 

, and then actually give its teachings a fair shot

What do you mean, give it a fair shot?  Have you ever given any other religion a fair shot?  Why is yours special?  Because you say it is? 

And who's version of the biblical teachings should we trust?  Yours?  Which one of the 38,000 sects of Christianity should we give a fair shot to? 

Do you really think you gave Christianity a 'fair shot' when you started with the premise that it was all true?  That's not fair, it's incredibly biased.  In order to give religion a fair shot, you have to start with the question of whether or not there is any form of deity, and then let the evidence take you where it goes.  The Christian God, however, is not where things end up if you do that.

( and for the bible that's Jesus for he said he was the truth

Do know anything about biblical history?  Like who wrote the gospels, how many copies we have of the originals, etc?  Yes, your bible says Jesus was the truth.  Why do you automatically think he was right?  It's just words in a really old book.  There are words in other really old books that say different things too. 

You are starting with the notion that Jesus was correct.  Why?  Because that's what you've been told to do?   I could say that I am the truth too, you know.  That doesn't make it true. 

, he didn't only say it he lived it, and I can give secular qoutes talking on how only Jesus in all history out of all and any of the teachers and great teachers, only he actually lived such a life that exemplified love and the things he was actually teaching.

Sam Harris, from Letter to a Christian Nation.
"It is true, of course, that Jesus said some profound things about love and charity and forgiveness. The Golden Rule really is a wonderful moral precept. But numerous teachers offered the same instruction centuries before Jesus (Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius, Epictetus...), and countless scriptures discuss the importance of self-transcending love more articulately than the Bible does, while being unblemished by the obscene celebrations of violence that we find throughout the Old and New Testaments."

You've been brainwashed to think Jesus was the greatest person ever.  A thorough reading of the bible without the Christian blinders on will change your mind on that.  If you look at the actual character in the book, he's not as great as you think he was. 

How if not doing this can you say you know there is no God?

Because the bible is not historical fact.  Because there is no evidence that God or any gods are real.  Because you can't hear, taste, touch, smell, feel or otherwise detect God in any way.  Because we have no idea who wrote the bible stories about Jesus.  Because we have no originals of the bible stories, and all the copies we have, have thousands of differences to them.  Because starting with the notion that god is real is not a proper way to determine whether or not god is real.  Because we have natural explanations for how the universe began, and how we all got to where we are now.  Because millions of people suffer horrible amounts every day.  Because there are no such things as miracles.  Because there is no evidence of the supernatural.  Because there have been thousands of different gods in the history of mankind, and the belief that you are right and everyone else is wrong is foolish.  Because no matter how strongly you think God is real, other people feel just as strongly that their gods are real too.  Because even though some people say they actually can converse with God, no one has ever communicated something that no human being could possibly know without the intervention of a deity.  Because amputees are never healed.  How long do you want me to keep this up? 

God is not real Sam.  Sorry.  You've conjured it in your head. 
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curiousgirl fair and thorough August 05, 2012, 09:24:39 PM