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JeffPT



    Posts: 1992
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I would never follow someone that does not care if they offend someone or not. Especially if I thought it would make me mean.

Thank you for proving my point.  You lead with emotions.  You're far more worried about how a post makes you feel as opposed to what the actual arguments are. 

I temper my emotions just fine thank you.

Yes, but you temper your emotions with more emotion.  In my experiences, women are more emotional than men, so it doesn't surprise me all that much.  And religious women are unbelievably emotional.  Again, that's just my experiences. 

If you did you would know that yes I once was Atheist, now I am not. I am not Christian, Apologetic, or any of the rest of that stuff, I am own my own, I call it Spiritual. I know there is a spirit that lives within me, I can feel it trapped inside walls of flesh.  That is the part of me that God wants. The inside.

Yes... I'm sure you were once an atheist lol.  Pardon me for thinking your lying.  I'd bet cash money that you were raised with religion and to believe in a god, even if you didn't follow that specific path as life passed by for you. 

There is no spirit living inside of you.  You ARE walls of flesh.  When your brain ceases working, you just stop existing.  It's just what you want to believe with no proof at all behind it.  Show me even one spec of data that shows there's a spirit living inside of you that is separate from your body.  I dare you. 

Not a good comparison.  Creation is my definition of how we came to be, our purpose for surviving this life.  Unicorns don't offer any answers to our existence, if they do I certainly have not heard that one but I wouldn't bite unless the argument that unicorns created man and earth made some sense.

Where to begin with this one....

So your argument is that for a claim to be valid, it has to offer an answer to our existence?  I can't just claim stuff and expect you to believe it.... UNLESS it explains our entire existence?  And THEN it's valid, no matter how dumb it is?  My unicorn example explains, in great detail, and with much logical sense, why the tires in my car don't go flat.  Does that mean it's true? 

And do you think 'making some sense' has any real bearing on whether or not a claim is actually true?  It made sense that the world was flat.  It made sense that demons caused disease.  It made sense that Zeus caused lightning and thunder.  Why do you think the fact that some lame ass creation story 'makes sense' to you has even the slightest bearing on whether or not it's true?  God bowling makes sense as a cause for thunder.  That doesn't mean it's true. 

I believe in intelligent Creation, not some freak explosion or evolving apes.  So far after 100,000 years on the planet or so creation is still the most plausible to me. 

Oh boy... here comes the scientific illiteracy.  Let me ask you something...  Do you know how your computer works?  I mean top to bottom, inside and out, nuts to bolts?  No?  If no, then how do you explain how it works?  Do you assume that there's little tiny people inside responding to all your inputs (as a completely baseless guess as to how it works, like your spiritual explanation about how and why life is here) or would you find a scientific explanation more satisfying?  Guess what, your notions of creationism pushed onto a group of people well versed in evolutionary theory would be akin to you approaching a computer engineer and claiming that it's more reasonable for you to believe that there are little men inside responding to your every input.  You don't understand evolution.  If you did, you wouldn't say what you said.  In fact, you'd be totally embarrassed by it.  Do you really think we don't have a reasonable, rational response to your 'evolving apes' contention?  Please... 

You would be wrong. I was an atheist for 10 years thank you very much. 

Name a single atheist book you've read. 

... I thought so. 

My path uses reason and faith.

Faith doesn't need reason.  That's why it's called faith.  Because it's not based on reason. 

That doesn't make any sense to me. You don't know what the non-existence of God means and your atheist :? Sometimes being hateful just don't make sense.

You said I was searching for the non-existence of God.  That doesn't make any sense.  Could you search for the non-existence of unicorns?  Where would you actively search to NOT find unicorns?  I know what non-existence of God means.  I just don't understand how you can look for it.  If you meant that I was out to prove God does NOT exist, that's different and completely wrong.  I started with the question of 'is it more likely that God is real or not real' and I looked at both sides extensively.  It's not a close contest. It's a landslide victory for atheists.  There is no Christian God nor any other god that I've ever heard of.  Yes, even the one you've made up is more than likely not real.   

I found God because I was searching for truth, the reason I am here etc..

No.  You went LOOKING for God.  If you LOOK for God, you're going to find God.  Just like in my analogy if I LOOK for rotator cuff problems, I'm going to FIND rotator cuff problems.  You have to LOOK for what's actually there, not what you've been told was there.  You weren't searching for the truth.  You said you were looking for God.  Well, surprise surprise you found him. 

But yet again, thinking there is a 'reason' for you being here biases the search.  You must first ask 'does there need to be a reason why I'm here'.  The answer is no.  If you start with 'What is the reason for me being here?', then you've already formed a conclusion that there is a reason and now you need to find it.  Which makes the god explanation so tempting for you.  Because it's an easy answer for everything, even though this is the 21st century and your thinking is like that of people 2000 years ago.  We have better answers now. 

Evolution offers no such answer, so therefor I revisited the idea of Creation by intelligence, by God, and through much study and soul searching I found Him and it wasn't in any church.

Evolution answers HOW we got here, but you're right... it doesn't answer why.  The answer to why we are here is implied in the process of evolution.  We are here because of the natural progression of evolution on our planet. 

But what makes you think, Junebug, that you... little old you... has discovered the secret to God and the entirety of the worlds 7 billion other people are all getting it wrong?  And all the people that have lived and died in the past hundred thousand years were all wrong too, but not you!  No... not you.  You've figured it all out.  All by yourself through your 'study and soul searching'.  There's no way that you... no, not you... could be wrong about it now, is there?  All the OTHER people are wrong, but not you.   

Yeah... sure.  I'm sure you've got it. 

You know, people who are deluded generally don't know they're deluded.  And they all believe, with vigorous intensity, that they're right.  But guess what?  They're not.  You're not either. 

Of course I would, but what happens when God goes back to His place of being God?

1.  People survive! 
2.  Parents rejoice!
3.  People see God and fall down on their knees to worship his generosity!
4.  Atheists see the evidence first hand and admit their mistakes, embracing the wonder and love that God shows to his children!

I feel like it will get worse because the ones out there that are doing this will not have to bother with a conscience because they would know that God will save whomever they hurt. 

Of course you 'feel' that, because it's too terrible to admit the obvious repulsiveness of God not helping starving children when it only takes a simple thought to do so.  You have to explain it away, and this is just how you do it.  It's that simple.  It's called cognitive dissonance, which means you hold 2 conflicting ideas inside your head at the same time.  The first is that God is good, and the second is that God lets children starve, which is obviously not good.  The only way for you to hold on to the first is to explain away the second with some ridiculous story about how bad it would be if God simply helped everyone out.  It's a lost cause Junebug.  The much more explanatory theory which explains why God does not feed starving children is because God isn't real to begin with.  BTW, that also explains why people get cancer, AIDS, and all sorts of other awful things. 

God does help starving children, you just can't see it because of your disbelief. 

First of all, prove it.  Show me.  Provide a single spec of evidence for this. 

Second... you already said that God helping starving children would be bad.  So are you angry at God for helping the starving children? 



Do you think dying is a bad thing to God.
God isn't real, so I don't know how to determine whether or not dying is a bad thing to something that isn't real.  But if God was real, then yeah, I'd say he'd think dying was bad. 

Do you have any evidence to present as to whether or not God thinks dying is a good or bad thing?  Otherwise, you're just saying something that has no basis in truth. 

Man fears death not God, God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

If you really believe that, then what are you waiting for?  Go up and join them.  I don't understand why people like you stay alive if you really think the next world is better than this one?  It's like staying in a sucky job when the best job in the history of the world is offered to you.  It doesn't make sense. 

I'm not afraid of death at all.  I'm afraid of dying in severe pain, but not death itself.  So speak for yourself here. 

Also, please present a single spec of evidence in favor of the claim that all those children are dead somewhere much more glorious than here.  Otherwise, you're just wishing that were true. 

As far as your question I would feed my son, yes I would.  If my son was being starved to death by another son I don't know what I would do.  I would probably feed the hungry one, but I'm afraid of what I might do to the other one.

You're a better person than God then.  The reason you'd feed your son is because you love your son.  Do you really think God loves his children if he lets 30,000 of them die every single day? 

God did help my son off drugs. He helps many people get off drugs.
Uh huh.  And where was God when your son got ON the drugs?  And where was God when all those other people got on the drugs?  You see... that's what you people really don't get.  If he exists, your God knew EXACTLY when your son was going to take drugs, and he let him do it.  He stood right next to him every single time he popped a pill and never stepped in.  Then, later on, you give God all the credit for getting him OFF the drugs, as if God suddenly realized what was going on and put a stop to it.  That's utterly freaking ridiculous.  You praise God for helping your son off drugs, yet you don't condemn God for letting him get on the drugs in the first place! 

I don't recall ever saying I would be angry with God for helping, I am saying I see a bigger picture than you and I understand why He doesn't do more.   

Is it not possible that this is just the excuse you've come up with to explain away the fact that some really awful things happen down here and God doesn't lift a finger to stop them?  That this is the reasoning your mind had to go through in order to maintain your belief that God is good despite some very serious evidence to the contrary? 

Some people get off drugs.  Others die from it.  Some get off drugs only to relapse later on.  If God didn't exist, then its the individual who finds a way to get off the drugs and its also the individual who winds up dead.  That's a reasonable explanation, is it not? 

Do you know what the bigger picture is?  Do you have evidence of it?  Any proof at all? 

God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth so far as I am concerned. 
There is a unicorn in my garage and anything that contradicts it is not the truth as far as I'm concerned. 

This is how you sound.  You said you used reason.  Where is it?  I don't see it. 

There is no such thing as a rightful age to achieve such a promise of heaven, I've heard of the age of accountability, which means that you have to be old enough to understand God to be judged, children of any religion I have studied get a free pass right into the pearly gates. 
I assert that the rightful age to achieve the promise of heaven is 16 years, 3 months, 4 days and 13 hours.  Prove me wrong.  With evidence. 

Better yet, prove that there is a heaven.  Prove that there is a God that judges people.  If you've studied so much, show your work.  Show me the proof.  If you can't, do you realize you just might be making the whole thing up, and the idea that God let's every child into heaven is only what you believe because, as you said, God is good and anything that contradicts that is not the truth?   

You know I can not prove this, no more than you can prove it does not.
So it's as likely or unlikely as the notion that we all turn into forks after we die.  You can't prove we don't, I can't prove we do.  Same thing.  It's just your guess. 

Do you believe in evolution? If so where is the proof of that. 

First, evolution isn't something you believe.  It's something you accept or reject based on the evidence.  And yes, I accept evolution because I understand it. 

Evolution is both a fact and a theory.  Species change over time.  This is a fact.  For proof, just look at dog breeding, cattle breeding, plant breeding, or any other form of life breeding you can find.  If you have 1000 cows and you want the biggest and best cows in the future, you mate the biggest cows together and they produce big cows.  Over a few generations of doing it, the cows get bigger and bigger and bigger.  For dogs, every single type of dog came from a wolf.  A chihuahua, a Great Dane, a pit bull, a beagle, all can be traced to wolves through DNA and through history.  That is species change over time.  It's beyond question at this point.  You could do it yourself if you wanted to.  There have been experiments done, extensive experiments on bacteria, guppies, foxes, all with the outcomes showing that you can literally change the species if you selectively breed for certain characteristics.  That is the proof.  It's iron clad.  The way scientists distinguish one species from another is when it no longer can mate with the original species it came from and produce viable offspring.  This is why we have thousands and thousands of species of beetles alone. 

The THEORY of evolution is in how that process works through natural selection.  And all you have to do to understand that theory is to ask yourself... in a snowy woods, which rabbit has a better chance at survival... the all white one, or the gray one.  The white one, obviously because it can hide from predators.  The gray will likely die before it has a chance to pass it's genes to the next rabbit, whereas the white one will survive longer, and pass on his genes to the next rabbit which will also be all white.  That's natural selection. 

Would you like me to link you to over 250,000 peer reviewed articles on the issue? 

It is only a theory without tests and pictures, but you believe that. 

It's so hard to take you seriously when you say 'it's only a theory'.  It betrays a serious lack of understanding about what a scientific theory is versus your idea that it's just some sort of guess.  The tests, the pictures, the data, the fossils, the DNA, all exist.  I can't help it if you don't want to look at it.  I can almost guarantee you, you've gotten all your information about evolution from people who reject it.  And now you reject it for the same reasons as they do.  If you talk to someone who knows what science really says about evolution, you'd probably understand it a lot more. 

There have been lots and lots of people that have seen a glimpse by way of the near death experience.  Not many have come back to say there is nothing there, I just didn't exist anywhere for those 2 minutes I was dead.

Um... there are millions of people who nearly die every year and say there was nothing there.  Its only a few that say they have NDE's.  And guess what?  The NDE's are culturally biased.  By that, I mean that a Hindu person will have a Hindu flavored NDE.  Here is a link that may help you out on this one. 

http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

Here is a brief quote from it that I think should be mentioned...

"One of the near-death experience truths is that each person integrates their near-death experience into their own pre-existing belief system."

If God wasn't real there would be a lot more starvation in this world!

But... you said God doesn't help the starving children.  Now he does?  Would you please keep your story straight?  Are you saying he picks and chooses which starving children to save?  I don't think that's all that much better, do you?  Would you think me a good parent if I found all 3 of my children starving and I had piles of food in the fridge and I only gave food to one of them? 

This is just a stupid statement on your part.  It's absolutely not in evidence at all.  You're just stating something that's categorically false here. 

I would be happy to see the children fed and if it costs me my life and the world as we know it, so be it.

Good for you.  Now realize that every time an emaciated, starving child takes his last breath, God stands over them with the capability of stopping it from happening... and does NOTHING; while you would do the exact opposite and feed every one that you could.  Now, ask yourself...  If you were standing over your son, and he was dying of hunger, while you had food, and you gave him food, are you going against what your God wants by feeding him?  After all, if God doesn't feed him, does he really want him to be fed?  Why is it good for God NOT to feed him, but good for you to feed him? 

The other possibility is that there is no God standing over that child, and that the reason it dies, is nothing more than the simple fact that, like all living things, it must consume things to survive. 

I don't think I have disapproved of myself here.
But you have disapproved of your God.  You're just scared to admit it. 
Changed Change Reason Date
Dante nice work April 05, 2013, 11:19:11 AM