Karma reasons for concrete message

Message

JeffPT



    Posts: 2028
  • Darwins +203/-0

Let me start by saying that I am certainly not evil. 

If you worship a god that allows about 30,000 children to die every single day of starvation, millions to die every year of cancer and other ridiculously unnecessary conditions, then you've got to do better than simply asserting that you're not evil.  Perhaps you're not evil yourself, but you certainly condone it. 

I think if it gets to the point that God has to intervene the consequences for the rest of us could very well be mighty grim.

Why?  Please explain why it would be 'grim' to have God simply come down and give starving children some food?  Why would that be awful?  Be specific here.  What would be grim about that? 

And if that is really your position, then do you believe God never intervenes?  Do you believe he has ever intervened in your life?  And if he did, was it 'grim' when he did?   

Wouldn't it be better for all of us, I mean every single person on this planet, the whole human race if we stood together and demand change in the politics that have lead to poverty. There is a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wolfe, an economist that has some good ideas about how to put an end to poverty, and the only way we will do that is together.

Of course it would, but does Mr. Wolfe have omnipotence?  No?  Your God does, doesn't he?  What's the problem then?  Why would it be 'grim' for God to solve some of our problems, yet wonderful if Mr. Wolfe solved them? 

If God did not exist, would that not satisfactorily explain why starving children die and God does nothing to stop it?  A non-existent God wouldn't fix starvation either.  Doesn't that make infinitely more sense? 
 
The Christians I know say the same thing, God knows everything before it happens.  They also say we are not puppets on a string.  It is like much of the things they say, a contradiction. 

Follow that line of thought to it's logical end. 

One thing I've learned on my "vision quest" is that to know God you must rely on History and Science. You have to distinguish the rhetoric from the truth. For example, I was watching two men on a Christian broadcast channel a couple of days ago, and they actually said that God promotes capitalism, I do not agree.

What makes you right and them wrong?  Or vice versa?  Is it because you have factual evidence of God's position on capitalism versus other economic systems?  Or is it because you just believe it with all your heart that 'your god' would never promote capitalism?  Have you spoken directly to God to get his position?  If you are going to distinguish rhetoric from the truth, in this case, wouldn't you require direct evidence from God himself?  And if you don't have that, which I am 100% sure you don't, what process are you relying on to separate rhetoric from truth? 

The processes you use to distinguish rhetoric from truth is what makes all the difference. 

I would not have known this except that I've done "my own" homework.

And you're saying they haven't? 

Most importantly you have to have an open mind and heart.

Being open minded means considering that your positions may or may not be correct.  Is it possible for you to admit that you could be wrong about God?  If not, then you're not open minded. 

See to me, God understands why atheist are atheist and eternal torture is not on God's mind at all, AT ALL. 

That is because that's the god you want to worship.  You don't like the idea of worshiping a God that eternally tortures.  You are super-imposing the God you wish were true onto your beliefs, when in reality, what you would like to believe about God has no bearing at all on what God is actually like.  If God were not real, then saying we are going to be tortured for eternity is just stupid.  It's of absolutely no concern to me.  Heaven and Hell are fake.  It's not even a remote concern. 

Right now it just takes 10 preachers to lead 300 people the wrong way. There are 10's of 1000's of preachers out there! You are better off to be an atheist than a brainwashed sheep of a sheep. God's love is not uneven though. He loves those brainwashed sheep and the misguided sheep that lead them.

Or God doesn't exist at all and preachers are all telling their flocks what they, themselves believe instead of what the actual truth is.  And it's so funny how secure you seem to be in all of this.  How confident you are in thinking that you've got it right and everyone else has it wrong.  What makes you think, even for a moment, that you are doing it right and all those others are doing it wrong?  Seriously... I'd like to know that.   

God doesn't want to destroy us.  He wants us to learn from our mistakes.

For what?  What purpose does it serve God for us to learn from our mistakes?  Learning from mistakes is inherently beneficial for humans, not for God.  If God did not exist, we would still be better off learning from our mistakes.  So you saying that GOD wants us to learn from our mistakes, is nothing more than again super-imposing something that we all think is good onto your fictitious supernatural deity. 

There is a saying be careful what you ask God for.  Do you really need God to feed the children or should we come together and stand up against the politics that create poverty?

And do you really understand that a being that stands over the emaciated bodies of starving children, all the while with the power to fix it, and does nothing, is evil? 

What would you think of God if he came down, right now and gave a starving child some food?  What would you think of him?  Would you think... "How awful is that!  God, what are you doing!?  That's so... grim... of you to feed that starving child"?  No.  You'd love it.  So would I.  But that's not God.  God stands idly by and watches them die as the family screams out in agony. 

God isn't real.  That's why starving children die.  Humanity could stop it, but that's an answer an atheist gives, not a Christian. 

History of man according to the Bible tells us when God intervenes people die.

The bible is just a book with claims in it.  Those claims have to be studied in order to distinguish rhetoric from the truth.  As you said.  Perhaps you should do that. 

Let's say you have 5 children.  Could you put the 2 oldest of them to death for letting the 3 youngest go hungry while you left them in their care?

What does that have to do with anything you're talking about?

Man's greed is the problem here people and there is something "WE" can do about that!

Here are 2 available solutions.   

1.  Man fixes hunger by technological advances, better politics, improved sanitation, etc, etc.  This is incredibly hard to put into action and requires immense amounts of work that, in the end, may actually doom the planet from overpopulation. 

2.  God fixes hunger with the snap of his fingers.  This requires zero effort on anyone's part.

You keep saying it... over and over again... that it's mans problem to solve.  If it's man's problem to solve, then fine.  I agree with you that it's man's problem to solve.  But what if one man had omnipotence and chose NOT to solve that problem?  What would you think of him?  That's your God.   It may not be the God you like, but if God exists, the one that actually exists has the power to end hunger with a single thought and CHOOSES not to.  Why would any sane person worship that?  Stop 'believing in your heart' that God is good and start using your brain to figure these things out.  You just might be a sheep, who's been led to believe certain things about a God that really might not be up there.  And if he is up there, you really might be justified in condemning him. 

Let me be perfectly clear... the God you worship as the greatest being in all the universe, allows massive suffering and death on a global scale, and does nothing to stop it.  If he exists at all, that is the absolute truth.  It is a fact.  There is no getting around it.  If you were a moral human being who truly believes in God, then you should be condemning God for that, but you choose not to.  Why?  You might be evil.  You might be immoral.  Or you just might be brainwashed to believe that God is good and everything in your life revolves around that, so you work to excuse the evil instead of condemning it.  The people in Hitler's Germany were also brainwashed to think of him as good too.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe you've been duped like that too?  Probably not. 

You can 'believe in your heart' that God is good all you want, but actions are what should be judged here.  Not your feelings. 

I ask again... If God was not real, would that explain why he doesn't help starving children?  Just think about that, please.  No excuse you can come up with to explain away why God doesn't help starving children is better at explaining why there are starving children than simply admitting that God isn't real. 
Changed Change Reason Date
Jag excellent post, thank you March 26, 2013, 07:27:06 PM