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Emily



    Posts: 5663
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Welcome to the forum.  :)

I don't think anyone here can "prove" that the planet Neptune exists - though we all probably believe it exist based on someone somewhere telling us there is a telescope somewhere that someone we have never eve met looked through and saw it.

This is a very poor argument. First of all, as others have said, there are telescopes that people can look through and see Neptune. I have one myself. My telescope features a GPS device, and something called a GoTo Mount, which, when using the location of the telescope (which is what the GPS does), depending on the day of year, and time of the night, the telescope will go right to Neptune.

Here's my telescope, BTW: http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes/reflecting-telescopes/ioptronsmartstargn114gotogpsreflectortelescope.cfm

So for only around 400 bucks, you too can see Neptune. I will admit that because I live in a large city I have not seen Neptune, but if I wanted too I could take a 45 minute drive to the country side and view all the planets.

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Same thing with a lot of what we believe.  I have never been to Mount Vernon, yet I believe a man named George Washington existed.  I don't think there is one person here who can even name the person who did a portrait of George Washington.  Yet we believe without "proof" when we are taught in history he existed.

Another pool argument, because we have historical documents that President Washington existed. I don't accept this fact on faith alone, I know there was a man who at least went by the name George Washington.

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I don't care if you do not believe in God.  I don't care if you think creation could come about by chance instead of a Creator.  I know in my heart and confused mind there is a God.  Just having a difficult time how He blesses blesses blesses some and well others, pooh on them . . . . .

You're believing in god on faith alone, and nothing else. You are believing this because this is how you were either raised, or you were taught it by someone else and they convinced you there is a god.

However, the problem lies that there is absolutely no proof for god, like there is for George Washington, or Neptune. If someone came up to me in the street and said there's a planet called Zork between Mars and Pluto (which would be visible through my telescope) and I went to the country with my telescope and saw no planet Zork, why should I believe this person?

If someone tells me there is a god and I ask for proof, but this person admits to nothing having proof, but only having faith, I see no reason to believe this person. If this person was a new-earther, then I could simply counter his argument and show proof that can easily by found on in a textbook that this person is completely wrong. This person might not believe me, no matter how hard I try to convince him, but some peoples' minds just cannot be changed, no matter how much proof they are shown that goes against their believes.

If this person is an old-earther, and doesn't believe in a 6000 year old world, but believe that the universe is 14 billion years old, the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, believe in abiogenesis and evolution, but still believes firmly in a god that set everything in motion, I'd still ask for proof for this god. And they person can give me bible verses all he/she wants too, but that isn't too convincing of an argument for an atheist like myself. I either want to see this god for myself, or have trustworthy documents that show this god's existence. So far, there are none that point to the fact that the god of the bible exists.

All the proof christians have for their god is in the bible. But to use the bible to support the bible is called circular reasoning, and I know enough not to fall for that as proof.  Some christians try to use the whole 'creation ex nihilio' or, something from nothing argument being, "How did the universe come from nothing?". Well, I can easily counter with the fact that that same argument can be applied to the god named YHWH. If something cannot come from nothing, and god is a something, how did he come about? But when it comes to how the universe was formed 14+ billion years ago, I don't know for certain. All I know is that a singularity expended, generated intense heat, the four forced known as gravity, the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism formed, and through a series of particle/anti particle annihilation more particles and anti-particles were formed, and kept expanding into the universe we live in today.

I don't believe god did it. I just don't. To conclude he did is called God of the Gaps, which substitutes god into the missing pieces that scientific theories have. And another thing, a scientific theory, is not like the word theory used in every day English. Here's a good definition of the scientific meaning of the word theory:

Theory
A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory.
 
http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/site/glossary.html

It works nicely. Perhaps you knew the scientific definition of theory. I am just tossing that out there in case you didn't.

I would really love to see how you can to your conclusion that there is a god. You said that there is no doubt in your mind there is a god, so I'd like you to place no doubt in my mind as well.

However, I don't want to be preached too. I don't want to be told to look at proof in the bible, for reasons I mentioned above.[1]. No offense, but I would hope that you are honest enough to have some doubt in your mind, because you should. Because looking at the world we live in shows there is no design for it. Science has proven how a universe can evolve without a god. Science has proven how life can evolved without a god. Science doesn't seek to disproof god, but only to show how what we know about our existence can appear through natural processes.

Many people are praying for my wife, many people have prayed for countless others.  Some will recover, some will not.  Everyday the newspapers are filled with obituaries of people who died younger than 50.  Answered prayer for healing from God is not consistent.  Why does He choose some and not others?  Especially when some of the others who live long healthy lives are outright liars, thieves, all while being in church every Sunday morning, all spiffed up and looking mighty "Christian".  I personally have met some of these people.  One person who "stole" another man's wife (twice! long long UNBELIEVABLE story you would think I made up . . .  ) actually told me I should forgive him just like Jesus did for stealing the other man's wife.  LOL.  Let me wrong you and when you get angry, tell you "Brother, even though I stole from you (a large amount, over $20,000), you need to forgive me and move on".  What about the part that says I should make right my wrong, THEN ask your forgiveness.  Based on his reasoning, if I robbed a bank, the jury and judge should forgive me since Jesus has.

This is getting off topic.  God exists.  The Bible is true, I don't understand it, I am angry at a God that COULD recover my wife and doesn't, angry at a God that lets people like the several rich televangelists become millionaires.  Since He COULD give them health or other issues (I am not asking for a bolt of lightening from the sky) but doesn't, they just prosper prosper prosper, it has confused me.  Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so . . . .  easy words, not so easy to believe any more.  As I told my children, love is an ACTION word.  If I say I love you but don't provide for you when I CAN, then my actions demonstrate a contradiction.

Your 'prayers' may seem to be answered, but I believe there is a non-religious reason why this is. Perhaps through pro-active measures you took youself to get the results you wanted. Perhaps through a well trained physician, etc.

It's true, though. Answered prayers through god is not consistent. And as I christian I questioned why. After all, even Jesus said, according to the bible:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matt 7:7

and

...with God all things are possible
Matt 19:26

and

And what you ask in my name I will do it... If you ask anything in My name I will do it.
John 14:13

and

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.
James 5:15

It's pretty clear that if you pray to Jesus, god's son, then he should be constant. When looking at how god answers prayer in the bible I see how he cannot be constant. I came to this conclusion only through studying god's word (the bible), yet he is very much inconstant.

Not knowing your wife's condition, I think prayer, while it is beneficial to helping you feel better about her condition, will go nowhere. No offence, BTW.

My father is a pastor (Pentecostal), and there was a time after I left the church that he and his congregation prayed for me. Long story short, I got associated with the wrong crowd and did some pretty heavy drugs, like coke and crack. Just strung out all the time. He had people pray for my to be sober, but I got sober without the help of prayer, because I was unhappy with the way I was living my life. His prayer didn't help me. I took pro-active measures to get sober.

Whatever is asked for in prayer, more natural means seem to make the most sense. Like, is someone is sick, that person prays for healing while at the same time seeing a good doctor, I am positive that person gets better because he/she saw a doctor who has studied the affliction through years of medical school. And if that person doesn't get healed it's only because medical science hasn't figured out how to help that person completely, even though a doctor is doing all he/she knows and can.
 
I am glad to see that your mind is confused towards the reality of god's existence. Hopefully on this forum you'll see how god isn't real.  Just be honest with yourself.

-M
 1. the circular reasoning argument
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