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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by jaimehlers on Today at 08:29:57 AM »
Actually, most of the Southern generals were better, by comparison, than the Northern ones.  The two best Northern generals, Grant and Sherman, had far less military experience than virtually all of the Southerners.  Most of the other Northern generals weren't all that good.  Meade was one of the better ones but he was still fairly average.

In addition, rifles give a substantial advantage to the defender.  So do fortifications (even battlefield fortifications).  There's a reason that the North won both Antietam and Gettysburg, both of which were defensive battles, and it certainly wasn't the caliber of the commanding Northern generals.  Especially McClellan, who was next to incompetent when it came to tactics and strategy.  I'll grant that he got lucky by finding a copy of Lee's battle plans, but when you get right down to it, he still won.

And don't make too much of how long the war took either.  The Anaconda Plan, proposed by Winfield Scott, which ended up being pretty much the way the North ultimately won, was in no way intended to be fast.  I couldn't find anything on how long it was expected to take, but given the state of the Northern army and navy, I would be really surprised to find that it would have been less than three years under the best possible circumstances.  Attacking across Virginia, by comparison, was just plain stupid, due to the rivers and the topography.  It would not have taken a military genius to hold against incompetently-led Union forces, as most of them were until Grant.

And even though Grant wasn't all that good, he still beat Lee into the ground in less than a year, through little but numbers and refusing to quit.  It certainly wasn't through military strategy or acumen.  So let's not spend too much time complimenting Lee in winning against incompetent or marginally competent Northern generals.  Was he good at his trade?  Yes.  Does he deserve to be remembered for it?  Yes.  But it's very debatable whether he kept the South alive much longer than it would have survived anyway.  I doubt any of the Northern generals before Grant could have successfully prosecuted a campaign in Virginia even against a Southern general not of Lee's caliber, unless they were down near McClellan's level, and without the defeats in Antietam and Gettysburg (because Lee took chances to try to win the war (, the South might have lasted longer against Grant.



How would I make that determination?  First off, I'd look at when the statue was put in place.  Second, I'd look at who put it in place and who paid for it.  Third, I'd look at the dedication for the statue and any inscriptions on it.  And fourth, I'd consider who is using it as a rallying point today, and why.

Dollars get you doughnuts those could give you a good idea what the original intention of putting the statue up was.  Maybe not so much the last one but it should still be considered.



jetson also makes a good point here.  Hitler was a monster in many ways, but he still pulled Germany out of the Great Depression.  If he had died of a heart attack in, say, 1936 or 1937, he would be remembered very differently today.
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Chatter / Re: Charlottesville and I can't even
« Last post by jetson on Today at 08:07:29 AM »
There is a piece by Charlie Hebdo going round that basically points to the fact that Trump will tweet at the drop of a hat to take a dig at someone who has "wronged" him.....but that it took him days to come even close to condemning the racists.  I think that says all that needs to be said about his true character.

Agreed. And let's be clear - The President of the United States, in 2017, is an open and hostile racist.

There is simply no reason for anyone, especially our media, to equivocate on this any longer. It's as if we are too stunned and unwilling to allow the thought to settle and become truth.

He has literally shown us with yet one more open and blatant example of his personal racism and his hostility towards all who oppose him. I'm only 55, but it is bizarre to think that I have not seen the likes of this in my lifetime. When he tells the truth, we need not question or equivocate on his meaning. It is always precisely what he states.
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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by jetson on Today at 08:02:02 AM »
Albert Einstein was partly responsible for some of the worst massacres of human life by advocating the use of atomic weapons. Some say the atomic bomb prevented more deaths than it created. But Einstein is celebrated for other accomplishments that seemingly outweigh his involvement in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs.

What is missing in what we learn about history and its most popular actors is balance. What is so wrong with pointing out everything we know and allowing people to decide on their own how they feel about certain historic actors? Do we all have to celebrate Einstein's accomplishments and ignore his role in the deaths of so many civilians? Do we just continue to brush that off as though it is a better truth?

One of the biggest problems with the United States is that it consistently fails to admit to its own mistakes and decisions that caused real harm. As far as I'm concerned, it makes us better and helps the healing to admit when we're wrong. Hiding those truths is probably harmful in the long run (as in our history of racism and NAtive American genocide).
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Chatter / Re: Charlottesville and I can't even
« Last post by Anfauglir on Today at 07:56:16 AM »
There is a piece by Charlie Hebdo going round that basically points to the fact that Trump will tweet at the drop of a hat to take a dig at someone who has "wronged" him.....but that it took him days to come even close to condemning the racists.  I think that says all that needs to be said about his true character.
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Chatter / Re: I'm going to be a grandmother!
« Last post by jetson on Today at 07:51:17 AM »
Congratulations!

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Chatter / Re: Charlottesville and I can't even
« Last post by jetson on Today at 07:50:39 AM »
Anyone want to make a case that the POTUS is not a racist?
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Chatter / Re: I'm going to be a grandmother!
« Last post by jynnan tonnix on Today at 07:28:02 AM »
Congratulations!  Have you decided what you will be called?  Grandma, Nana, Meemaw, Glam-ma, or something else?  Is your daughter near you?

Haha...no, I haven't really decided, though I have put some thought into it. I'm leaning toward Mimi, not being too fond of the typical Grandma names, but then again, maybe something will evolve on its own, as these names often do, and those are the best anyway.

My daughter is about 15 minutes away, and her husband's family is also close by, so she figures that between her work schedule and his, which both have a bit of flexibility, they can get away with only needing child care two or three times a week, so it will be spit up between us, which sounds great!

Thanks, everyone else for your wishes as well :) Nick...you said a mouthful! I hope the babies being born now won't inherit the shell of a world...It's the one thing that really makes me feel a bit apprehensive about the whole prospect.
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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by Anfauglir on Today at 06:20:38 AM »
....the question we should be asking is why certain groups wanted those statues were put up in the first place, not the reason they publicly gave to sell it.....

Hmm.  I'd be very interested as to how you'd make that determination! 

We can indeed have our suspicions as to what the "real" meaning was, but I think its very shaky ground to start proclaiming "you said this, but I know you meant that - so that's what I will base my decisions on".

(Regarding Lee's military career, his armies were outnumbered for the vast majority of the Civil War engagements (in some cases knocking on for being outnumbered 2:1) and had a pretty good record against Grant, for example, nor did he do too badly in the Mexican-American war.  I don't think it would be a stretch to say that without Lee, the Union would have won the war earlier.  So I think there's at least a reasonable case for him to be "statued" for his military career - but that's probably not really the point!)

Always a tricky one with Civil Wars, as opposed to where "our brave lads" marched off to fight "those evil swines" from other countries!  In the UK, we've got statues dotted about to both Cromwell and to Charles 1, both of whom can have good and bad things said about them.  My main point though was that if we delve into the background or personal opinions of everyone we have even built a statue to, we would be hard-pressed to find any that - in all or even most respects - share our modern sensibilities.
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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by jaimehlers on Today at 05:40:32 AM »
So then, the solution is clear.

Remove all statues and memorials of all those who did not vociferously defend the inherent rights and equality of all people in action and in words.
Disagree.  First off, that's not a clear solution at all, and second, the 'simplicity' of such a solution is patently absurd.

People can come up with rationalizations for why we should put up statues for someone every day of the week and twice on Sunday, you know, but the question we should be asking is why certain groups wanted those statues were put up in the first place, not the reason they publicly gave to sell it.

Even if Lee was a brilliant military general, why does that mean he should get a statue?  And at the end of the day, Lee lost.  Frankly, he was fighting subpar generals and even so, lost badly to a flagrantly subpar general (McClellan) and a so-so general (Meade) on the two occasions he invaded Northern states.  Yeah, he fought acceptably well on the defensive.  But it's relatively easy to fight on the defensive, especially with the advantages of the rifles at the time.  So why should he get a statue for being a "brilliant military general" when he wasn't all that brilliant?
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Religion & Society / Re: WORDS
« Last post by junebug72 on Today at 04:20:28 AM »
^^^No need for forgiveness, it's a non-issue for me. I knew you were angry and I suspected you didn't actually mean it anyway. It's all right. I've been trained to not take things personally, lol

I'll be happy to expand further, but I've got my hands rather full right now. I'm in Oregon for another week and a half or so, visiting newly discovered family, and trying to track down my biological father. It turns out that I might have at least two half-siblings, and if that's the case, I'd at least like to reach out to them. My biological mother died before we had the opportunity to meet, and I don't want that to happen again, so I'm scrambling to connect the dots. I'm headed into Portland to sign off on paperwork to get my adoption records fully opened. I'll be in and out as time allows.4

Understood.  I'm fairly busy right now too starting Fall semester.  I'm hoping I might gain understanding in my PSY 150 class.  I have just a little understanding now.  I know what happens biologically as far as fight or flight or freeze is triggered in the brain. 

Thanks for understanding. 

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